1¾«ŻKQRSSSNORMAL.STYHP3T@ä5ŠÅŅRRSµ®lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'uÆ .i mi vi le zdani pu zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra .i ®lu ma mo li'uÆ na se spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a ku'o gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o ®lu le cmacrnalgebra li'uÆ .i mi nelci le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a pensi .i mi si'a se cinri so'a klesi be lo sinxa ciste ra'anai ledu'u vo'e ge'ikau te javni mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati la jbolanzu no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veirgau lemi selcpe po'u lo barda carmi bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau -------------------------------------- "OK, OK!", I say, barging through the door, bruising my shoulder, "What's all the fuss about?" I was sitting at home quietly, when I got a message saying that Veijo and Nick, who are at the Cafe Jbolaz, want to see me there. "What's up?" - no reply. They are deep in a discussion about Fraktur. Me? I can take it or leave it. I sit down at a table next to theirs and wait for someone to notice me, either them or one of the people serving who might bring me some coffee. My table is dark with age. On it is carved "I", a heart, and "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and start to ponder. I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. That's the reason I'm studying Lojban, which is why I'm at the "*Jbolaz". A waiter comes and takes my order for a large, strong coffee, and wanders off, not heading for the kitchen. Ah, it looks like they've spotted me at last. We say hello. Perhaps now I'll find out the reason for all the rush. Colin: "le vorme" - I am still not clear whether "vorme" means a bit of wood etc., or a hole, or both. We often use it as if it means the first - if so, then "le vorme" is certainly not what you mean here! Nick: I believe "vorme" is a doorway, rather than a piece of wood. I don't see why the piece of wood can't be a "vrogai" (doorway lid). Lojbab: It is the doorway that is intended in the gismu, but not in the sense of "door frame". The new place structure for "vorme" has a place structure suggestive of route, emphasizing the two sides it connects, while noting that it is also within some larger structure, and hence not just any route. By comparison, "canko" emphasizes the wall in which it is found. I like "vrogai" and "vroca'o" and "vroge'u" for the cover and opening and frame, respectively. The gismu list has been clarified to reflect this. Nick: I'd prefer something more explicit than "pezyjicla", like "raktu" or "cuntu". Lojbab: I agree. This smells malglico, since there is no clear implicature as to what is being 'stirred up' in the context. Transferring figurative uses between languages, if you must do so, should be confined to situations where the reader/listener can clearly identify the figurative values for the place structure of the 'figure' - in the case of "jicla" (stir), the agent/force doing the stirring, the 'fluid' being stirred, and the utensil/implement doing the stirring. For the context given, it isn't really even clear to me that Iain wants "jicla" as opposed to "terjicla" Colin: I felt sure there was something wrong with "le me ko'a", but I think you have actually invented a new idiom with which we will now doubtless be plagued. Mark: It's actually an attempt at a sort of metonymy. I think "le me ko'a" is not the way to go, I greatly prefer "zo'epe ko'a". I sort of think of "zo'epe" as almost like a LAhE word (of course, with different grammar) that introduces metonymy for the sumti it's on. "le me ko'a" seems dangerously close to just plain "ko'a". Nick: "le me ko'a" is the solution to metonymy - so much better than my "zu'i pe ko'a". Iain: I've been reprimanded in the past for using "zo'e" with a relative clause, and told to use "da". Admittedly, I think it was a "poi" relative clause, which may make all the difference. Neither "zo'epe ko'a" of "da pe ko'a" seem to express the definiteness that I wanted. I could use "le" with a sumti, provided I insert an explicit quantifier "le pa da pe ko'a", which is starting to get out of hand for a simple concept like "theirs". The voting is still open on this one. Mark: Well, you have a good point. "zo'e pe" is specifically anti-definite. It's good for metonymy in which you're really not trying to be specific, but are willing to be elliptical. For something like this, "da pe" would be better, but still likely wouldn't get the definiteness across. There's "da voi srana", but that's not really worth considering as a general solution. Too long. "le pada peko'a" doesn't seem all that bad to me, but then, in your shoes I would probably say to hell with definiteness and stick with "zo'epe". Not that that's necessarily the right thing to do. I'm still less enthusiastic about "le me ko'a" than Nick is. Lojbab: I think "le me ko'a" is fine for original Lojban, but would probably have used "le ko'a co'e" as a translation for English "theirs" which more matches the 'possessive' implicature of the English. The "me" version is more vague, and could extend to include "ko'a" as well as things belonging to "ko'a". On the other hand, I suspect that "la'e" and "tu'a" between them handle metonymy fine, and I think better than "le me ...". It would not be very English-like to handle "theirs" as a "la'e" or a "tu'a", but it might be very lojbanic to do so. Lojbab: Iain translates this sentence as: I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. There was much debate about this sentence on the net, with Iain eventually deciding to use "ra'anai". Not proposed in the discussion, and I think better and more lojbanic, is a logical connective approach. I also think that "all kinds of" is better expressed using a massifier gadri, since he is not really interested in the categories, but in the things comprising the various categories (or maybe he is a taxonomist): .i mi si'a se cinri piso'a loi sinxa ciste jugu'a te javni be mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra be'o gi mecritli be mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu The two "be" clauses might be more readable as parentheses: .i mi si'a se cinri piso'a loi sinxa ciste jugu'a te javni (to mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra toi) gi mecritli (to mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu toi) Nick: Perhaps "mukti", and "sutrybai". Lojbab: Iain has to decide: Does he want an explanation for the summons, or does he really want to know the motive. Having multiple words for "why" makes you really need to think about what is really sought after. 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