1jorssNORMAL.STYHP3t@5porNote to Ivan - Not having heard from you with an update of the translation of the "Tale of the Stairs", I am going ahead with the text as is, making changes that by your comments you clearly wanted and were sure of. Anything less than certain, I left unchanged, but included yours, Nick's, Nora's and my commentary in footnotes. (These footnotes will undoubtedly appear poorly intermingled when I attempt to dump this file out to ASCII text, but rest assured that it will look better in JL.) While a polished translation might in its own way be aesthetically pleasing, the extensive commentary would be very informative to the Lojban community, especially so since the overall quality of the translation is so good, and the commentary deals with almost entirely with semantics rather than grammar. The differences between Nora's understanding and your intention, may also serve to teach people that they need not be perfect to be understood. It is clear that Nora understood the essence of the story, even if an occasional sentence got mangled. (Hopefully, therefore, you will OK the text as is, or with only minor changes. If you want changes that are too major, and Nora's translation is no longer valid, I will have to do some extensive reformatting. This might force me to put the thing off till JL18, and I think you've had to wait too long as it is.) Over a year ago, Ivan made the following translation from a Bulgarian original. Because Nora and I have been so slow at technical review of Lojban text and because JL has been less than regular, this long promised effort is finally making it to print. As with some of our other texts this issue, a translation may be found later, along with footnoted commentary on the text. Unlike other texts, this text is being published without being finalized. Ivan's submission was so well done that Nora was able to translate it and understand it as she received it. Her translation was extensively commented by Ivan, who planned to rewrite the text based on the comments. I think that the text we have is good enough to see print, and the commentary and response from Ivan, with added notes from Nick Nicholas and Lojbab, serve as an excellent study in Lojban stylistics and the problems of translation. (The excellence of Ivan's work should not be doubted merely because of the number of footnotes. The stylistic discussions in these footnotes consist of Ivan's explanations of subtle distinctions in the original Bulgarian that are not captured in Nora's translation. I felt that presenting these discussions would teach a fair amount about the language, while showing some of the stylistic considerations that go into an excellent translation, considerations that need not apply when, like Veijo or Mark, you write originally in Lojban.) As with other pieces published in this JL, I am publishing this text with essentially no changes, choosing instead to make my comments in the footnotes along with Nora's, Nick's, and Ivan's. Ivan did such an excellent job; I can scarcely say that my artistic judgement could better than his capture the sense of the Bulgarian text that I've never read. Enjoy! le lisri be le serti .i fitfi'i di'e ro lei ba cusku be ledu'u vo'e vo'i na srana ni'oni'o tu'e lu do mo li'u preti fi la pacrux. goi fo'a .i lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki li'u .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu noi se lafti se mebri gi'e denmi se xance .i ri goi ko'a sanli crane le serti .i labyxu'e linji ke blabi roimrmaro ke galtu serti .i ko'a catlu mo'ifa'a le darno nedi'o lepu'u lei grusi kalsygri be leka pindi cu ca simsa be loi ctaru rirxe ke to'ekli boxna ku savri'a .i diklo slilu gi'e febvi fengu gi'e lafti loi to'e plana ke xekri birka .i le nunpante ke suksa sance .e lei fengu nunki'a cu desku le vacri .i le te minra cu simsa be lo darno ke barda terdanti sance ku masno je junri runta .i lei girzu cu banro gi'e klama ne'i loi pelxu pulce dilnu .ije loi sepli ti'otra cu mutcne leka viskli ze'o le kampu ke grusi vanbi ni'o pa.o'enai to'ercitno cu simsa be lepu'u sisku leri se cirko ka citno be'o ni'akro befa'a le terdi ku dzukla .i lo cucycau cmaxli cu jgari lera selxaksu taxfu gi'e catlu le galtu serti sepi'o lo tinbe je simsa be le rulnkentaure,a bei leka blanu ku kanla .i catlu je cisma .i loi selpopseltau je grusi je cinla remtra cu trixe dzukla gi'e gunma sanga lo selsno ke mrori'i zgike .i da kercrori'a siclu fi le ctebi .i de noi daski nenri se xance cu cmila sepi'o lo cladu je rufsu voksa .ije lede kanla cu jarco leka fenki ni'o lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki .i .iunai vu gapru .i .o'onai li'u .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu noi se lafti se mebri gi'e dukri'a denmi se xance .i lu .io xupe'i do xebni lei vu gapru li'u preti fi fo'a noi ca tcica krori'a le xadni fa'a ko'a .i lu .aisai mi ba vefsfa lei vu mabla nobli joi turni .i mi ri kusru vefsfa seka'i leimi bruna goi ko'u noi simsa be le canre bei leka pelxu ku se flira zi'e noi zmadu be le la gaimast. si'erbi'e bei leni tepri'a ku se cmoni .i ko viska leko'u lunbe ke ciblu ve flecu xadni .i ko tirna leko'u cmoni .i .ai mi ko'u venfu .i le'o ko curmi li'u .i fo'a cisma .i lu mi jibri bandu lei vu gapru .ije mi se le'irbai gi'anai lacti'a ri li'u .i lu mi ponse no solji .i mi ponse no lo se pleji befi do .i mi pindi je selpopseltau citno .iku'i mi bredi lenu pleji lemi kazyji'e li'u .i fo'a rapli cisma .i lu .e'onai ri zmadu lemi se cpadji .i do'anai ko fi mi dunda leka do sanga'e li'u .i lu .ueru'e leka mi sanga'e .i .iefi'i .i .e'i mi noroi tirna di .i .e'i li'u .i lu do ranji leka ka'e tirna li'u .i fo'a ko'a papri'a sepi'o di'u gi'e cadzu curmi .i lu ko pagre li'u .i ko'a bikla bajra gi'e dzugre ci te serti tai panu stapa .i ku'i lefo'a terkre xance ko'a lacpu .i lu banzu .i ko sisti mu'i lenu tirna leiko'u vu cnita cmoni li'u .i ko'a sisti gi'e kerlo jundi .i lu .uesai .i ki'uma ko'u suksa cfari lenu to'edri sanga gi'e xalbo cmila li'u .i ko'a krefu ke bikla bajra .i fo'a ko'a krefu rinju .i lu mu'i lenu do krefu pagre ci te serti kei mi cpadji ledo kanla li'u .i ko'a pa'arcau sliri'a le xance .i lu ku'i va'o la'edi'u mi na ka'e viska ga leimi bruna gi leimi ba se vefsfa li'u .i lu do ranji leka ka'e viska .i mi fi do ba dunda lo drata kanla noi mutce zmadu li'u .i ko'a rapli pagre ci te serti gi'e ni'a catlu jundi .i fo'a rinka lenu ko'a morji .i lu ko viska leko'u lunbe ke ciblu ve flecu xadni li'u .i lu .uecai .i .u'ecai cizra .i cama binxo lenu ko'u melbi dasni .i ji'a seba'i lei ciblu te xrani ko'u se jadni loi se manci xunre rozgu li'u ni'o vi ro lo cimoi te serti fo'a di'i lebna lefo'a cmalu selpleji .i ku'i ko'a ru'i cadzu .i ko'a bredi dunda rodi mu'i lemu'e klama tu gi'e vefsfa leivu malplana nobli joi turni .i .uo.ui semaunai pa te serti .i ba su'epa te serti ko'a gapru .i ko'a cabazi venfu leiko'a bruna .i lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka cerda .ije ro le pidrai sa'a li'u .i lu ju'i. citno nanmu su'epa te serti .i ba su'epa te serti do venfu .i ku'i levi te serti di'i ve pleji le relpi'i jdima mi .i ko fi mi dunda leka do cinmo je morji li'u .i ko'a sliri'a le xance .i lu .ii leka cinmo .i .e'anaicai .i dukse kusru li'u .i fo'a maljgira cmila ra'i le galxe .i lu mi na mela'edi'u kusru .i mi fi do canja dunda lo zabna kazyci'o .e lo cnino kazmo'i .i ga do zanru gi do noroi pagre levi te serti gi'e noroi venfu leido bruna pe lo se flira be le simsa be le canre zi'e pe le se cmoni be le zmadu be le la gaimast. si'erbi'e bei leni tepri'a li'u .i ko'a catlu lefo'a crino je ranxi kanla .i lu ku'i mi ba traji leni to'e gleki .i do lebna ro ckaji be le kazre'a mi li'u .i lu to'e go'e .i traji leni je'a gleki .i .e'apei .ixu do tugni .i do'anai leka do cinmo je morji li'u .i ko'a cu trati pensi .i lo xekri ctino cu manri'a leko'a flira .i loi xasne ke to'ekli dirgo cu gunro zo'a le se cinje mebri .i ko'a fengu demri'a le xance gi'e bacru pa'o le denci lu .ai.e'asai .i ko lebna li'u ni'o ca lenu le xekri kerfa ca biflu'a kei ko'a simsa be le crisa lidbi'e ku fengu pagre le romoi te serti .i ko'a capu snada lemu'e gapru .i suksa cisma gusni leko'a flira .i leko'a kanla cu dirce seci'o le smaji ka se mansa .i leko'a xance cu luzbi'o .i ko'a catlu lei pixsalci nobli .i catlu le cnita bedi'o lenu krixa je dapma fa le grusi je selpopseltau girzu .i catlu .i ku'i no sluji be leko'a flira cu frati .i ri selgu'i je gleki je selpu'a .i ko'a viska loi salci se taxfu girzu vi le cnita .i lei pu cmoni ca salpemci .i lu do mo li'u tcica preti fi fo'a sepi'o lo rufsu voksa .i lu mi nobli ji'u leka cerda .ije lei cevni mi bruna .i .uicai ge le terdi cu je'a melbi gi le remna cu je'a gleki li'u tu'u .i di'u se finti la xristoz. smirnensk. gi'e se fanva la .iVAN. derJANSK. fo le banblgaria si'u la nitcion. nikolas. fa'o Nora's translation follows in italics. Where Ivan intended a different translation, that is given on a third line in a different font, or in the footnotes commenting on Nora's translation. le lisri be le serti The story of the stairs. "The Tale of the Stairs" .i fitfi'i di'e ro lei ba cusku be ledu'u vo'e vo'i na srana Offered is the following to all who say it doesn't pertain to them. (Epigraph:) "Dedicated to all those who will say: `This doesn't pertain to me!'" ('doesn't apply to me', 'has nothing to do with me'.) ni'oni'o tu'e (non-translatable) lu do mo li'u preti fi la pacrux. goi fo'a "What are you doing/What are you?" asks Evil-Spirit. `Who art thou?' asked the Devil. .i lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki li'u "I'm a peon by birth, and all the poorest are my brothers. Alas! The earth is ugly and the people are miserable." "I'm a plebaeian by birth, and all the tatterdemallions | ragamuffins are my brethren. Oh, how ugly is the earth and how miserable are the people!" .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu noi se lafti se mebri gi'e denmi se xance .i ri goi ko'a sanli crane le serti .i labyxu'e linji ke blabi roimrmaro ke galtu serti This was uttered by a young man, with raised brow and dense (thick?) hand. He stands in front of the stairs. Pink-lined, white marble, high stairs. Thus spoke a young man with lifted forehead (showing proud unwillingness to conform) and clenched fists. ... a high staircase of white marble with pink veins. .i ko'a catlu mo'ifa'a le darno nedi'o lepu'u lei grusi kalsygri be leka pindi cu ca simsa be loi ctaru rirxe ke to'ekli boxna ku savri'a .i diklo slilu gi'e febvi fengu gi'e lafti loi to'e plana ke xekri birka .i le nunpante ke suksa sance .e lei fengu nunki'a cu desku le vacri He looks, his gaze moving-towards [somewhere] far, where the gray mobs of poor are, like tide-river unclear-waves, making noise (clamoring?). Shifting/agitated and boiling anger and lifting of meager, black arms. The yelps (?) of protest and the cries of anger shake the air. His gaze was directed towards the far_away, where the grey mobs of misery were clamouring... They were agitated / in a state of ferment... The outcries of protest ... .i le te minra cu simsa be lo darno ke barda terdanti sance ku masno je junri runta .i lei girzu cu banro gi'e klama ne'i loi pelxu pulce dilnu .ije loi sepli ti'otra cu mutcne leka viskli ze'o le kampu ke grusi vanbi The vantage-of-reflection, like a far artillery (?) sound, slowly and gravely dissolves (don't quite get this sentence). The groups grow and go inside yellow-dust clouds. And the separate shadow shapes vary widely in visibility as they get further from the common gray surroundings. ... and the echo faded away slowly, solemnly, like distant cannon fire sounds ... and individual silhouettes were emerging more and more clearly against the common grey background". ni'o pa.o'enai to'ercitno cu simsa be lepu'u sisku leri se cirko ka citno be'o ni'akro befa'a le terdi ku dzukla .i lo cucycau cmaxli cu jgari lera selxaksu taxfu gi'e catlu le galtu serti sepi'o lo tinbe je simsa be le rulnkentaure,a bei leka blanu ku kanla .i catlu je cisma An old one, like a searcher for his/her lost youth, walks stooped to the ground. An unshod little girl grasps someones/somethings worn-out clothes and looks at the high stairs with obedient, cornflower-blue eyes. Looking and smiling. Some old man was coming, stooped to the ground, as though he was looking for his lost youth ... was holding his [sc. the old man's] ragged/tattered garment (in order not to get lost in the crowd)... .i loi selpopseltau je grusi je cinla remtra cu trixe dzukla gi'e gunma sanga lo selsno ke mrori'i zgike .i da kercrori'a siclu fi le ctebi .i de noi daski nenri se xance cu cmila sepi'o lo cladu je rufsu voksa .ije lede kanla cu jarco leka fenki Rag-covered, gray, thin forms walked behind and sang together slow, funereal music (dirges?). Someone ear-splitting-ly whistled from the lips. Someone, with hands in pockets, laughed in a loud, rough voice. His eyes showed insanity. ... Someone was whistling sharply. ... insanity was burning in his eyes. ni'o lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki .i .iunai vu gapru .i .o'onai li'u "I am a peon by birth, and all the poorest are my brothers. Alas! The earth is ugly and the people are miserable. The high-ups - I spit on them!" .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu noi se lafti se mebri gi'e dukri'a denmi se xance This was uttered by a young man, with raised brow and agonizingly dense hands. .i lu .io xupe'i do xebni lei vu gapru li'u preti fi fo'a noi ca tcica krori'a le xadni fa'a ko'a "Sir, do you hate the high-up?" asked Evil-Spirit, who slyly bowed to him. `You hate those up there?' asked the Devil and leaned towards him. .i lu .aisai mi ba vefsfa lei vu mabla nobli joi turni .i mi ri kusru vefsfa seka'i leimi bruna goi ko'u noi simsa be le canre bei leka pelxu ku se flira zi'e noi zmadu be le la gaimast. si'erbi'e bei leni tepri'a ku se cmoni .i ko viska leko'u lunbe ke ciblu ve flecu xadni .i ko tirna leko'u cmoni .i .ai mi ko'u venfu .i le'o ko curmi li'u "I will have revenge on those damned royalty. I will wreak upon them a cruel vengance on behalf of my brothers, with sand-yellow faces and who moan with more than a December-blizzard worth of scaring. See their bare, bleeding bodies. Hear their moans. I will avenge them. Just you allow it! Oh, I will take vengeance on those princes1 and princes2. ... who moan in a more ominous|sinister way than the December blizzards. .i fo'a cisma The spirit smiles. .i lu mi jibri bandu lei vu gapru .ije mi se le'irbai gi'anai lacti'a ri li'u "My job is to defend the high-up. I am fined (?) if I am traitorous to them." .i lu mi ponse no solji .i mi ponse no lo se pleji befi do .i mi pindi je selpopseltau citno .iku'i mi bredi lenu pleji lemi kazyji'e li'u "I have no gold. I have nothing to pay you. I am a poor and rag-covered youth. But, I am prepared to pay with my life." .i fo'a rapli cisma The spirit again smiles. .i lu .e'onai ri zmadu lemi se cpadji .i do'anai ko fi mi dunda leka do sanga'e li'u "Ah, no. It is more than my get-desire(??). Give me but your hearing." "Oh, no, I don't want that much!" .i lu .ueru'e leka mi sanga'e .i .iefi'i .i .e'i mi noroi tirna di .i .e'i li'u "What?! My hearing? Take it. I'll never be free to hear anything. Not free ..." "My hearing? With pleasure..." .i lu do ranji leka ka'e tirna li'u .i fo'a ko'a papri'a sepi'o di'u gi'e cadzu curmi .i lu ko pagre li'u "You'll continue to be able to hear." The spirit calmed him with this and let him walk. "Go through." .i ko'a bikla bajra gi'e dzugre ci te serti tai panu stapa .i ku'i lefo'a terkre xance ko'a lacpu He whippingly(?) ran, and walked through 3 steps with one stride. But the spirit's hairy hand pulled him. .i lu banzu .i ko sisti mu'i lenu tirna leiko'u vu cnita cmoni li'u "Enough. Stop to hear their moans far beneath." "Stop to hear how thy brethren moan down there!" .i ko'a sisti gi'e kerlo jundi He stopped and listened. .i lu .uesai .i ki'uma ko'u suksa cfari lenu to'edri sanga gi'e xalbo cmila li'u .i ko'a krefu ke bikla bajra "Well! What made them suddenly start singing happily and laughing lightly?" He again whippingly ran. `Strange: why did they so suddenly <...>?' And he rushed again. .i fo'a ko'a krefu rinju The spirit again restrained him. .i lu mu'i lenu do krefu pagre ci te serti kei mi cpadji ledo kanla li'u "To go another 3 steps, I want your eyes." .i ko'a pa'arcau sliri'a le xance He hopelessly shook (wrung?) the hand. ... desperately waved ... .i lu ku'i va'o la'edi'u mi na ka'e viska ga leimi bruna gi leimi ba se vefsfa li'u "But in that case I can see neither my brothers nor my targets." .i lu do ranji leka ka'e viska .i mi fi do ba dunda lo drata kanla noi mutce zmadu li'u "You will still be able to see. I give to you other eyes, which are much more." "... other, much better eyes!" .i ko'a rapli pagre ci te serti gi'e ni'a catlu jundi .i fo'a rinka lenu ko'a morji He again went through 3 steps and looked down. The spirit reminded him: .i lu ko viska leko'u lunbe ke ciblu ve flecu xadni li'u "See their bare, bleeding bodies." .i lu .uecai .i .u'ecai cizra .i cama binxo lenu ko'u melbi dasni .i ji'a seba'i lei ciblu te xrani ko'u se jadni loi se manci xunre rozgu li'u "Wow! Amazing! When did they become beautifully dressed? And instead of the bloody injuries they are adorned with wondrous red roses." "My god! But this is so strange: when did they manage to dress so well! ..." ni'o vi ro lo cimoi te serti fo'a di'i lebna lefo'a cmalu selpleji .i ku'i ko'a ru'i cadzu .i ko'a bredi dunda rodi mu'i lemu'e klama tu gi'e vefsfa leivu malplana nobli joi turni .i .uo.ui semaunai pa te serti .i ba su'epa te serti ko'a gapru .i ko'a cabazi venfu leiko'a bruna At each 3rd step, the spirit regularly took his little payment, but the youth went on walking. He readily gave everything to get there and get revenge on those fat royalty. Finally! Not more than 1 step [left]. After only one step he'll be above. He will then avenge his brothers. .i lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka cerda .ije ro le pidrai sa'a li'u "I am a peon by birth, and all the poorest..." .i lu ju'i. citno nanmu su'epa te serti .i ba su'epa te serti do venfu .i ku'i levi te serti di'i ve pleji le relpi'i jdima mi .i ko fi mi dunda leka do cinmo je morji li'u "Hey, young man. Only 1 step. After only 1 step you can avenge. But, for this step I regularly charge double price. Give me your emotions and memory." "Young man, only one step more! ..." .i ko'a sliri'a le xance He shakes (wrings?) the hand. .i lu .ii leka cinmo .i .e'anaicai .i dukse kusru li'u "Oh, no! Emotion - heaven forfend. Too cruel." "The heart? No! This is too cruel!" .i fo'a maljgira cmila ra'i le galxe The spirit haughtily laughs from the throat. The Devil gave a guttural, authoritative laugh: .i lu mi na mela'edi'u kusru .i mi fi do canja dunda lo zabna kazyci'o .e lo cnino kazmo'i .i ga do zanru gi do noroi pagre levi te serti gi'e noroi venfu leido bruna pe lo se flira be le simsa be le canre zi'e pe le se cmoni be le zmadu be le la gaimast. si'erbi'e bei leni tepri'a li'u I am not thus cruel. I trade with you for a fine emotion and a new memory. Either you approve or you'll never get through this step and never avenge your brothers with the sandy faces and the moans more fearful than the December blizzard." .i ko'a catlu lefo'a crino je ranxi kanla He looks at the spirit's ironic green eyes. .i lu ku'i mi ba traji leni to'e gleki .i do lebna ro ckaji be le kazre'a mi li'u "But I will be a most unhappy person. You take all humanity from me." But I shall be the most unhappy one. Thou takest from me everything that is human. .i lu to'e go'e .i traji leni je'a gleki .i .e'apei .ixu do tugni .i do'anai leka do cinmo je morji li'u "Just the opposite - the most truly happy man. Allow me. Do you agree? Your emotion and memory, please?" .i ko'a cu trati pensi .i lo xekri ctino cu manri'a leko'a flira .i loi xasne ke to'ekli dirgo cu gunro zo'a le se cinje mebri .i ko'a fengu demri'a le xance gi'e bacru pa'o le denci He tries to think. A black shadow covers his face. Cloudy drops of sweat roll off the wrinkled brow. He angrily clenched his fist and said through his teeth: lu .ai.e'asai .i ko lebna li'u "Go ahead. Take [them]." "So be it! (Let it be! Soit! etc.) Take them!" ni'o ca lenu le xekri kerfa ca biflu'a kei ko'a simsa be le crisa lidbi'e ku fengu pagre le romoi te serti .i ko'a capu snada lemu'e gapru .i suksa cisma gusni leko'a flira .i leko'a kanla cu dirce seci'o le smaji ka se mansa .i leko'a xance cu luzbi'o .i ko'a catlu lei pixsalci nobli .i catlu le cnita bedi'o lenu krixa je dapma fa le grusi je selpopseltau girzu .i catlu .i ku'i no sluji be leko'a flira cu frati .i ri selgu'i je gleki je selpu'a .i ko'a viska loi salci se taxfu girzu vi le cnita .i lei pu cmoni ca salpemci With his black hair fluttering, he, like a summer thunderstorm, angrily passes through the last step. He has now succeeded in getting above. There is a sudden smile illuminating his face. His eyes radiate, emoting the silent satisfaction. His hands loosen. He looks at the toasting nobility. Looking underneath to the crying and the cursing of the gray, ragged crowd. Looking, but not a muscle in his face reacts. It is illuminated and happy and pleased. He sees a crowd dressed for celebration below. What were moans are paeans. .i lu do mo li'u tcica preti fi fo'a sepi'o lo rufsu voksa "What are you?" slyly asks Evil-Spirit with a rough voice. "Who art thou?" slyly and hoarsely asked the Devil. .i lu mi nobli ji'u leka cerda .ije lei cevni mi bruna .i .uicai ge le terdi cu je'a melbi gi le remna cu je'a gleki li'u "I am a noble by birth, and the gods are my brothers. Ah!, but the earth is truly beautiful and the people are truly happy." tu'u The End. .i di'u se finti la xristoz. smirnensk. gi'e se fanva la .iVAN. derJANSK. fo le banblgaria si'u la nitcion. nikolas. This was written by Christo Smirnensk, and translated by Ivan from Bulgarian aided by Nick Nicholas. fa'o THE END Lojbab: "do mo" is elegant, but a bit vague to expect a useful answer with no context in advance to make it clear what is meant. Given the answer that was given (which is presumably the information that the Devil wanted to hear), I would ak the question as "do mo prenu" ("You are a what-kind-of-person") Nora: Not quite sure what this is. I presume it means he had a "high" brow. Perhaps "clani se mebri" (longly be-browed)? Ivan: "with lifted forehead" (showing proud unwillingness to conform)". Lojbab: I am one who believes in making cultural metaphors explicit in translations, especially to a supposedly culture-neutral language (I expect that you will call me on this regularly in return, Ivan, when I fail to make my own cultural metaphors clear.) Thus, if the lifted forehead signifies pride, include 'pride' in the tanru: "jgira ke seke se lafti mebri", or twisting it around for clarity in the relative clause context: "lo citno nanmu noi lafti le mebri seci'o leka jgira" Nora: I later figured out that this was "clenched", but it took a while. Perhaps "denmi se poldi se xance" (densely-foldedly be-handed)? Lojbab: "fist" has been expressed before as "ball-hand", so "fengu bolci se xance" (possibly making the whole or some portion into a lujvo - 'clenched-fist' for se fegbolxa'e, 'angry fist' for fengu se bolxa'e, or 'anger-clenched hands' fegboi se xance). Again, I favor making the emotional implication (which I am assuming is correct) explicit in the tanru/lujvo. "denmi" used this way in tanru will probably not catch on quickly with English-speaking readers, since we don't often use the word in its literal sense in metaphor. The validity of the tanru using denmi is thus hard to evaluate before we have a few usages of this type in the dictionary (and a few other English words besides "dense" to trigger people's consideration.) Other than that, I think "denmi" is fine especially if the "fengu" is also present, and I would not make much of the fact that no one picks up the metaphor right away. Nick comments further on this metaphor in a later footnote. Lojbab: If the order of the terms in the translation is important to you, use "co" and grouping words to emphasize it: galtu serti co blabi joi labyxu'e bo linji roimrmaro (high stairs of-type white-with-pink-lines marble) is one such approach. Nick: Will "kalsygri be leka pindi" by itself imply that it's a group of people? If you accept that, then leave "prenu" out. Lojbab: This kind of long-complex "be" is why "co" is in the language "cu ca savri'a co simsa loi ctaru rirxe ke to'ekli boxna" is much clearer, and also seems to match the order of your intended translation better. Lojbab: Does the sound of murky waves of a tidal river differ from the sound of any other kind of waves of a tidal river, or any other river? Ivan: The waves are murky because of the appearance of the mobs, and the river is tidal because of their numbers. The observation that these things (especially the first one) don't affect the noise is correct, so maybe I'll extract this description from the tanru and attach it to the mobs, like so: "lei grusi kalsygri be leka pindi bei loi ctaru rirxe ke to'ekli boxna ca savri'a". How's that? [Lojbab: Better, but see my answer in the next footnote.] Ivan: Bulgarian has the same word for `wave' and `worry', and since the mob is something like a sea made of people, it is not clear whether this is meant in a physical or emotional sense, or both. Lojbab: Then coin a lujvo based on "worry-wave" (dunku boxna) or "anxious-wave" (xanka boxna), possibly with a "joi" in between the terms. It won't translate to English, but will accurately reflect the dichotomy of the Bulgarian. Actually, I think the image, in this case, would translate, even if the word did not. Combining this with the previous comments, I propose: lei grusi kalsygri be leka pindi ca mutce savri'a gi'e simsa loi to'ekli dukyjoibo'a be loi ctaru rirxe Ivan: Used to be a "forest of dry, black arms". Lojbab: You could get the image of "forest" in there with "grana foldi co lafti loi to'e plana ke xekri birka", paralleling the image of "forest" = "ricfoi" ("tree-field"), which is the lujvo that has been most used. Nick: I'd use "sanselminra". "te minra" (where something is reflected to) means "echo" less than does "se minra" (that which is reflected). Lojbab: Again a place where "co" would make the text easier to understand. I also would use "canci" instead of "runta"; I cannot figure out what might go in the places of "runta" for an echo dissolving: "... cu masno je junri canci co simsa loi darno ke barda terdanti sance". (I also put a "loi" here on the cannon sounds.) I don't know about the original Bulgarian, but "solemn" to me implies "sad" at least as much as "serious", or at least both. Perhaps "jurdri"? in place of "junri". Nick: Given that "zenba" is now intransitive, replace "mutcne" with "zenba". Lojbab: If "zenba" were still transitive, you would want "zmabi'o" or "tcebi'o", based on "binxo" instead of "cenba" Ivan: The ".o'enai" was intended to cater for him being "some [old man]", whom no one knows or cares for. Lojbab: Ivan originally used "slabu". "slabu" is defined as the "old" which is opposite of "new", and not as the opposite of "young". This has caused a lot of people writing in Lojban to change to "to'ercitno". This works but it seems clumsy to define "old" as an opposite. I think that with the proper value for the places, "slabu" can serve both meanings, but have apparently not been convincing. How about "ji'ecla" (alive-long) or "ma'ucla" (mature-long) or "revycla" (survive-long), with the latter or zatcla/za'icla (exist-long), or teicla/temcla (time interval-long) serving for non-living things that have been in their current state for a long time? Lojbab: Again, a "be" that should be made into a "co". In addition, I think the old man is like a seeker, and not like a seeking and the "pu'u" should go away (though Nora figured out your intent), while what he is seeking is probably the state of his being young, and not the property. Putting all this together might give: "... cu dzukla co ni'akro befa'a le terdi be'o simsa lo sisku le selcri za'i vo'a citno". Ivan: That is "lunbyseljma", but I chose to go for the alliteration and brevity of "cucycau". I trust it is understood as meaning the same. Nora: I wasn't sure which referent to use for "ra". The possible referents are: the earth, the old one (via "ri" in "leri se cirko"), his lost youth, the lost youth of the old one, the process of searching for the lost youth, and (finally) the original reference to old one himself. I didn't initially pick up the "ri" (in "leri se cirko") as a countable sumti because I missed it (real easy to miss when it's compounded with the "le"). Ivan: The old one was what I wanted. The wee lass is "ri", and the earth, the youth and the process have no garments for her to cling to. Nora: I think I'd have been more comfortable with picking up the original reference at the beginning of the paragraph using "ru". Ivan: How would that work? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Lojbab: Since this is a new paragraph, "ru" should not go back any further than the beginning of the paragraph. The first sumti of the paragraph is the original reference to the old one, and the obvious referent of "ru". In addition, counting minimally based on your text would give "ra" to the earth and "ru" to the "ri" of "leri". On the other hand, a far more clear back-reference would have been "le go'i" which clearly picks up the x1 of the previous sentence, the old man. Note that since this anaphoric reference is occurring in the middle of an extremely picturesque set of metaphors, grasping the clothes of the earth is quite imaginable as a metaphor. Meanwhile, since Nora translated from your original text, which had "lo slabu" instead of "pa to'ercitno", she interpreted the old ones as plural (you had just been talking of masses and the Lojban gave no hint of sudden focus on individuals ("to'unai" or "su'anai" might have discursively indicated this change of detail level). Thus it might be that one girl is holding a mob of old peoples' clothes, or even a mob of unshod little girls is folding onto the clothes of the old people. In comparison to these images, grasping the "worn-out clothes" of the earth does not seem that far-fetched. All of this makes it clear that "ra" and "ru" have rather limited usefulness unless you are dealing with simple sentences where back-counting is easy. Lojbab: Nora was particularly pleased with herself for figuring out "cornflower blue", whatever that is. Ivan: Just bright blue. Cornflowers are often mentioned in Bulgarian literature. The reader is expected to have seen many of them, which I (being a urban boy) haven't, but I know what colour they are. The reader is also supposed to guess that bright blue as an eye colour suggests innocence. This is not the case in all cultures (and in particular, not in traditional Bulgarian culture - in our folklore all eyes must be black), but that's how the author meant it. Lojbab: Thus adding a modifying term to the tanru and grouping terms would make the meaning clear to those who do not know the cultural implication: "-eyes" Nora said that the context suggested "cornflower", and sure enough, you had used the genus name for cornflower in your le'avla. Ivan: The full name of the plant is Centaurea cyanus. It is not all blue (the stem and leaves are green), but I hope I still can use it in this way. Lojbab: Certainly, since the author did so. If there was doubt, you could specifically add "flower" after the le'avla, but I suspect that the flower is the plausible referent whenever a flowering plant is used as the basis for a color. On the other hand, if you used cauliflower/broccoli as the basis for a color description, you'd have to be more specific - indeed, I think I have seen both vegetables used to describe colors in English. Ivan: Or "mild" or "meek" (eyes). Lojbab: I might have tried "cumla" (humble), "fegycau" (anger-without), or "nalvli" (non-powerful). Ivan: Just a funeral song, which they were singing in a choir. Ivan: "Oh, ye up there, ye..." (Menace.) He's not really going to talk to them, therefore I spared the "doi". Lojbab: It seems to me that a vocative that is not meant for the referent is expressible by "ju'inai". An alternative would be to use a prenex to achieve an impersonal topicalization. Perhaps something like: "levu [mal]gapru .iunai zo'u do .au ve sputu .o'onai" Ivan: No, "threateningly clenched fists", "fists clenched in menace". Nick: Maybe "kajde" should be in that tanru? The tanru with denmi doesn't seem to be working. What about "ja'itra denmi xance" - grasp-form dense? ("jgari" alone implies that the youth is "ca'a" grasping "da poi se jgari" Lojbab: If not "kajde", then perhaps "capti'i" (peril-suggesting), though "capyjde" might be better still (peril-warning). Ivan: It is a rhetoric question (indeed, the behaviour of the youth leaves little doubt). Maybe "pei" (`don't answer') instead of "pe'i" (`I think you do')? The ".io" was a faint attempt to cater for the fact that this is the only occurrence of the formal pronoun in the tale. It doesn't really have to mean anything, and "Sir" is just a little bit too polite for its use here to be fair. Nick: Hang on, "pei" is the attitudinal interrogative, "pe'i" the opinion. What you currently have translates to me as "You do, don't you." I think the ".io" should stay.] Lojbab: "paunai", generally before the sentence, is the marker for a question not to be answered; i.e. a rhetorical question. In this case, you could also just omit the question word and start off with "pe'i do xebni ...". I think such direct statements or rhetorical questions serve to make the ".io" rather a lesser mark of respect than it might be. Note that, in American English at least, "Sir" is commonly used to address someone you don't know the name of in a non-insulting manner, and doesn't necessarily convey a lot of respect, so don't make too much of Nora's choice of the word. Ivan: "and leaned towards him", certainly not "bowed to him". Nick: Hm. I was thinking of "kroxadjbi", but I don't think "krori'a" need be taken as "to bow" - that's more "xadykro rinsa". Lojbab: You might need a "mo'i" on that "fa'a" to get the motion, and I think the "ko'a" can then be ellipsized. "noi ca tcica xadmu'u le stedu mo'ifa'a". As a sumti tcita, I tend to like "zo'i" more than "fa'a", though I don't think you can ellipsize the "ko'a" in that case, since the default referent of "zo'i" is the speaker/narrator. Ivan: Wrong BAI, it seems. He wants to avenge his brethren, not necessarily on their behalf (maybe they don't even know who has caused their misery). "venfu" wants one more argument place, therefore I went for "vefsfa", but by doing so I lost another argument place. Nick: Let's get that place back for you. There's really no reason why "vefsfa" should not have a place for "le se venfu"): s1 avenges s2 by doing s3 p1 punishes p2 for doing p3 by doing p4. s1=p1. s3=p4. p3=tu'a s2. Leaving out p3, we have: vefsfa: x1 punishes x2 avenging x3 by doing x4. Of course, you could just say "venfu be lei burna be'o sfasa" Lojbab: rearrange more clearly as: "zi'e noi selcmo co zmadu le la gaimast. si'erbi'e leni tepri'a" "zi'e noi" could be simply "gi'e" since you are using the same kind of relative clause (noi) with the relatived sumti in the first position in both cases. But there is nothing wrong with the way you have it. Ivan: Ought to have been "Let me pass!", but I didn't make it clear what the Devil was supposed to curmi. Ivan: (Bulgarian has two words which are equally glossed `prince' in English, the first referring to a son or other close relative of a king, the other to a ruler of a principality.) "mabla" corresponded to a certain form of the Bulgarian demonstrative pronoun, which suggests contempt. Ivan: "I am a guard[ian] of those up there..." It is certainly not his only job, but he means that he is serious about defending their privacy. Lojbab: Perhaps remove the "jibri", and replace by ".ei" or ".e'i". This also parallels what I think the following sentence should be ... Ivan: Contrariwise. "... and without a bribe I won't betray them." That is, "either I will be payingly compelled (i.e. bribed) or I won't betray them". Nick: "gi'anaibabo" to be polite. I still think "le'irbai" is sound. "le'irselmukti"? Lojbab: I like using attitudinals, and "le'ixlu" for bribe: ".ije mi se le'ixlu .ei gi'a na.e'i lacti'a ri I somehow feel that "lacti'a" has the wrong emphasis. Since the Devil intends to decieve the plebeian, he should avoid mentioning deception. Maybe a nice ambiguous tanru like "sidju cliva ri"? Ivan: Lit. "... to lay my head". Ivan: The surprise in the English is too strong. Ivan: I don't get the "free" here. "Let me never hear anything, let me..." I don't know how to say `let ... happen' in Lojban, though. Lojbab: Nora was undoubtedly trying to interpret the ".e'i" (constraint), and did so as the negation of ".e'inai" (freedom). I would normally use ".e'a" for permission, and the reiteration of the request is even stronger, a petition: ".iefi'i mi noroi.e'a tirna di .i.e'o" Ivan: For a more straightforward way to say "Thou wilt still hear", I'm thinking of trying "do co'unai ka'e tirna". Ivan: Lit. "made him way", i.e. "moved aside and let him pass". Lojbab: I don't know how to pass through stairs. Ivan: This may be a malbaublgaria. By passing a set of steps I mean climbing them. They are seen as obstacles, because one has to pay for each set of three. Hints as to how else I could put it are welcome. Nora: "pagre" isn't really the right word, unless you are doing it for the analogy of "passing through" stages (in which case something based on "pruce" might be used). I'm not quite sure what to use in place of it, though. Ivan: No, I'm doing it for want of a better bet. Nora: Maybe "klama mo'i zo'a ci te serti " (went motion-tangential 3 steps)? Ivan: Maybe. (Not that it sounds good enough to me.) Lojbab: I think I would use "bancu", and I'd soften the imperative to reinforce that it is a permission and not a command: ".i lu .e'a ko cpare bancu li'u" Ivan: "He rushed/dashed [forward]". Probably "ko'a co'i [mo'ica'u] bajra". Nick: Remember, Lojbab, the primary raison d'etre of "bikla" is to denote "a whip-like motion", not a whip. Lojbab: I have no real probalem with the use of "bikla". Any confusion in my mind is due to the repetition of the motion with different words: whipped forward, ran, walk-passed-through, for as short a motion as three steps. I would use "suksa", though, and perhaps phrase it like: ".i ko'a suksa ke bajra bancu tai pa nunstapa co cimei te serti" Ivan: Bulgarian has fewer personal pronouns than Lojban, so my "ko'u" corresponds to "my brethren" or "thy brethren" as appropriate. What will happen if I say "leiko'u ni'avu cmoni"? Lojbab: Seems as good, and indeed resolves an tanru, though it is one that isn't really misunderstood. The main differences between your translation and Nora's is your "how", which isn't present in the Lojban, and the interpretation of "vu", which rather overstates the distance - it is after all only 3 steps at this point. How about: "ko sisti mu'i lenu tirna leika ko'u ni'ava cmoni" Ivan: Rhetorical question. The last sentence may become ".i ko'a de'a bajra". Lojbab: I hope you meant "di'a" (resumptive) instead of "de'a" (pausitive). I'm not sure I understand how this is merely a rhetorical question. The attitudinal you inserted indicates surprise - thus he doesn't know the answer. He probably would like to know, even if he doesn't necessarily expect an answer. Thus "paunai", the unask-the-question marker of a rhetorical question, seems out of place. If he asks the question, he really would like an answer. If you feel that he doesn't really expect to know but just thinks of it as an unsolvable and possibly irrelevant mystery, I would avoid the question-word entirely and merely use the attitudinal for strangeness and an observative to indicate what it is he finds so uquestionably strange. (This comment applies to later questions in the story of this 'rhetorical' type.) I would have used a different attitudinal, ".i'unai.u'e" (mystery+wonder), instead of ".ue" (surprise), based on your translation of it as "Strange". I would not have put a strength indicator on the attitudinal, which marked the attitude as particularly strong. Otherwise, this seems fine. Lojbab: For this meaning I would choose something like "tcudu'u" (need-anguish), which in turn suggests a different kind of hand oscillating. Ivan: The Bulgarian contained the rather long "those on whom I go (in the literal, "la'e zo klama" sense) to take vengeance". Lojbab: You should be able to capture this with "leimi se vefsfa terkla". Ivan: Again [see footnote above regarding loss of hearing], I'll try "do co'unai ka'e viska". Ivan: The Devil slyly fails to specify in what sense they will be better (i.e. in what property they will zmadu). Nick: Would "zmadu befi zo'e" be too obvious? Lojbab: I think it would! It would make the Lojbanic point, but if the plebeian had heard it put like that, he might have guessed what he was in for. However, it would be clearer to readers, if the Devil had use "xagmau" (better) instead of "zmadu" (more), while retaining a similar ellipsis of comparison while adding one regarding the nature of "good" (Better than what? By whose standard?) Lojbab: You again need to deal with the "pagre" here. In this case, I suggest something like "krefu muvdu co bancu ci te serti". "krefu" is better than "rapli" for "again", though the latter is better for multiple repetitions, as occurs later in the story. Ivan: Ought to be "mo'ini'a ...", or "... le cnita". Lojbab: I prefer "catlu le cnita". "mo'ini'a", like the similar moving gaze early in the story, seems to ask for misunderstanding, though I suspect fluent Lojbanists might appreciate the usage more than us novices. Ivan: No answer to the question is really expected, so "pei cama ko'u co'a melbi dasni". Lojbab: You mean "paunai" instead of "pei". I disagree, as stated in my earlier comment on these kind of rhetorical questions. I think the unsolvability of the question is better conveyed by 1) dropping teh ".uecai" (which obviously prompted a different image in Nora's mind), and adding ".i'enaicai" after "cizra". Ivan: Odd as it may be, Smirnenski called them "manci xunre rozgu" `wondrously red roses', rather than "manci ke xunre rozgu". Don't ask me why. Lojbab: The reason seems obvious to me, if indeed the difference between the two groupings is that striking in the Bulgarian: The left grouping indicates a surreal quality about the redness of the roses, a clue to the nature of these new eyes, whereas the right grouping just says that they are especially nice roses without suggesting a surreal quality. Pretty roses are a wonder, but they need no special eyes to be found; but roses that are a red color that is wondrous must indeed be an unusual red, since most roses are a fairly distinctive red color. Ivan: I'm not quite sure about "ba [pa te serti]" here - steps are not times. Maybe "batu'a pa te serti". Nick: To be strictly correct, yes. Nora: The "semaunai" isn't necessary. "pa te stire" actually means "exactly one step". Ivan: I wanted to emphasise the fact that it is really only one step. All of these sentences ended with an exclamation mark in the Bulgarian original. What would be a way to put it back? Nick: "ba'epa", "ba'esu'epa" will do it for me.] Lojbab: Also, on the 'only one step' sentence, add "ba'acai" to show intense anticipation, certainly worth an exclamation point. Indeed, you can add attitudinals in each sentence to spice up the emotional level, though without strength indicators until the final two sentences. I suggest "fu'ese'inai" on the "ni'o" to show that the emotions that follow are empathic attributions to the plebeian (you may wish to mark this earlier in the story if you are attributing attitudes elsewhere in the story), "ba'u" or ".ianai" on "cmalu" to show that the payments were not really 'little', ".a'i.a'a" on the "ru'i" before "cadzu", ".e'i.u'o" on "dunda" (or perhaps ".u'ucu'i"), ".ai" on "klama", ".o'inai" on "vefsfa", ".o'onai" on "malplana". By now the emotions are flowing almost as fast as the words, and the last few sentences need only one attitudinal per sentence, but with intensity. ".ua.a'ocai ba'upa" then on the "one step left" (instead of your ".uo.ui", which seems premature), "ba'acai" on the following sentence, and finally a starburst at the end of the final sentence like ".au.ei.uo.u'a.uiri'ecai". This may be overkill, far more than you would like to do. Or I may be missing the exact feelings intended in the original, but you have to admit that it puts the exclamation points back in the paragraph. Lojbab: This word is the Lojban editorial bracket [e.g., I'm adding this discursive note later, and it is not part of the original text or quote in which it is embedded]. To get the effect you want, it needs to be attached to something discursive that indicates the ellipsis, since you don't really want to delete the "pidrai" that it currently marks. I would make it vausa'ake'unai, which ends the sentence with any appropriate ellipsis supplied (the formal meaning of "vau"), indicates that the "vau" isn't really said, and then indicates continuation (which is covered by the "sa'a" since it is attached to it in the manner of indicators). Actually, "mi'unai" might make a better word for open-ended ellipsis, though it isn't currently in the word list, since I think we have a difference discursive intent for "ke'unai": to indicate at the start of a block of text that you are continuing a thread after repeating something for emphasis. Other choices for open-ended ellipsis might be ".isa'a.isa'a.isa'a" or ".itu'esa'atu'u" (which would become legal under a recently proposed grammar change). Ivan: I'll probably split this into "ledo ka cinmo .e ledo ka morji". The original had "thy heart and thy memory", but the heart ("risna") is in Lojban, as in many natural cultures, only a pump for blood. I'm not sure whether the youth implies that he will die if his heart is torn out of his chest (which is true with respect to his natural heart), or that he doesn't want to live without being able to have feelings. Lojbab: It must be the latter, since he has indicated that he is willing to die in return for achieving his goal. I would replace "heart" by either "emotion-source" or "emotion-organ". Ivan: The "hey" sounds somewhat rude to me. Lojbab: We have generally found that putting in the "doi" tends to soften the harshness of the vocative, making for a more polite phrase like "Attend my words, O young man". Another possible vocative to consider is "ta'adoi", especially since the Devil is interrupting the reverie of the preceding sentence. Nora: "di'i" is "regularly" as in how a clock ticks, that is "at regular intervals". I think "na'o" ("typically") might work better. Ivan: Yes, well, it is not "typically" either, because he does it every single time when someone gets to this step. Lojbab: Then maybe "roroi" to so quantify the situation. Ivan: Or "I will give thee instead..." The original had literally "lo solji risna". Ivan: That is, "If thou consentest not, thou shalt never..." Lojbab: This sounds like "tugni" or "curmi", or maybe something else, instead of "zanru". This literally translates to something like "ganai do na curmi", a double negative equivalent of what you chose. Lojbab: This sounds more like "do lebna ro selkai be loi remna mi Ivan: "On the contrary - the most happy one!... But - ? Dost thou agree: only thy heart and thy memory?" I have no idea what "do'a" means; I used "do'anai" for `only' here. (I didn't intend it to be interpreted as "please".) The "je'a" is for symmetry (to replace the "to'e"). Nick: "do'a" - "generously"; "do'anai" - "parsimoniously". I think here "do'anai" would here mean "I'm not asking for too much", but generosity is associated with giving, isn't it? But I can find no better UI. Lojbab: We better clarify this one well. It came across entirely backwards. Intended to be discursive rather than emotive, "do'a" is supposed to mean that you are generously conceding or allowing a dubious point "even if this were so", possibly in conjunction with "da'i". "do'anai" therefore means that you are refusing to give in even a little, which is probably why Nora translated it as an officious and insistent 'please' (rather than a polite request). I presume that the word can be used emotively, though I hadn't thought of it that way. We addressed the question of how to express "only" on the net at great length, a discussion that I couldn't fit into JL17. Unless you are intending that "only" mean that the Devil is trying to express that he is being generous to require as little as the heart and memory (which would be a knowingly false emotive expression, something I don't much like in the Lojban attitudinal system - though I guess, if anyone can lie about emotions, the Devil can), you need one of the more elaborate logical paraphrases of "only" like "... and nothing else" Ivan: "Turbid <...> rolled along his wrinkled forehead." Lojbab: I think you wanted "mo'ire'o" instead of "zo'a". Ivan: No! "He became thoughtful / fell to thinking." Lojbab: Nora got caught here by the faulty memory that afflicts those of us who are long time Loglanists - "trati" means "taut" in Lojban, in in older TLI Loglan meant what "troci" now means ("try"). A rare case where she didn't actually look the word and place structure up, I guess. Nora: This is when I finally figured this metaphor out; I think the "angrily" helped). Ivan: "And suddenly a smile shone on his face." Lojbab: I don't think a smile can illuminate someone's face in Lojban in any literal sense of the relation. Ivan: The original uses an intransitive verb which usually refers to the sun coming out from behind a cloud, something like `[and suddenly] a smile "co'a" [shine; be a source of light] on his face'. Clearly Smirnenski didn't want to just say `he smiled', but as his alternative wording doesn't affect the meaning, I'm not sure how to account for it. I am open for suggestions. Lojbab: How about something like "suksa cisma co ka leko'a flira cu panra le solgu'i poi ba'o dilzu'i ku leka co'a to'ecanci"? (This uses the proposed grammar revision for relative clauses; the baseline grammar requires "ku'o" where "ku" is.) Ivan: Ought to be "He was already on the top". I reckon I've been having trouble saying `already'. Lojbab: I can see two interpretations of "already" given only the English word, so don't feel bad. Given that his memory has changed in the way it has, he may not remember the climbing, and thus is already at the top (This might be "ba'anai cpana le gapru"). Or, in the sense that you suggest with "snada", he is in the aftermath of climbing the last step ("ba'o cpare fi le gapru"). Ivan: He enjoys his belief that he is a prince by birth, and has always been one. Ivan: His fists, actually. But it is the same thing. Ivan: "He looked at the feasting/banquetting princes." Ivan: `crowds' wearing holiday garments, such as are worn only on special days (eg Sundays). Ivan: Literally. "the moans were already hymns". The "pu" is my addition. Lojbab: Shades of our classic example of "le": "le nanmu cu ninmu". Of course they are still moans, but he doesn't know that. Maybe a "pe'i" to make this clear. Thus you might want "rolo" instead of "le", to clarify which reality the author prefers to assume. Remember that Lojban's simple tenses are aorist; i.e. saying that they were moans in the past with "pu" makes no claim about their current status at "ca" - they may still be moans. Ivan: Exclamation. "Oh, how beautiful is the earth and how happy are the people!" Again, the "je'a" is for symmetry, in the place of what was "to'e" but a while ago. In the original ".oicai" and ".uicai" were the same interjection. Ivan: Lit. "a prince". 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