22 Jan 2010 02:22:25 < lindar> Do you mean something like {da poi puzi cusku zo'u co'e}?
22 Jan 2010 02:22:44 < vensa> yeah
22 Jan 2010 02:22:50 < lindar> Maybe {do'oi}?
22 Jan 2010 02:23:07 < vensa> except:
22 Jan 2010 02:23:11 < lindar> la -> la'o -> la'oi
22 Jan 2010 02:23:14 < vensa> I want a whole i\a\u series
22 Jan 2010 02:23:18 < lindar> zo -> zo'oi
22 Jan 2010 02:23:32 < lindar> do -> do'o -> do'oi
22 Jan 2010 02:23:35 < vensa> so you could also refere to someone who has spoken earliear (like ra kinda)
22 Jan 2010 02:23:43 < vensa> or much earlier (like ru)
22 Jan 2010 02:24:13 < vensa> also, imagine you were telling me a story about a women you talked to yesterday
22 Jan 2010 02:24:13 < lindar> ....uhhh... good luck! =D
22 Jan 2010 02:24:22 < vensa> I ask "xu qu melbi"?
22 Jan 2010 02:24:40 < vensa> meaning: is "the past-speaker" pretty - refering to the woman
22 Jan 2010 02:24:55 < lindar> ...yyy.... now you're being really inconsistent with what you mean by this.
22 Jan 2010 02:25:04 < tomoj> 'q'?
22 Jan 2010 02:25:13 < vensa> "q" is a temporary placeholder
22 Jan 2010 02:25:36 < lindar> Before it was somebody that just spoke, and now it's just anything that speaks?
22 Jan 2010 02:25:36 < vensa> I don't think i;m being inconsistent so much as I'm allowing the vagueity that ru allowes
22 Jan 2010 02:25:49 < vensa> that's the beauty of it
22 Jan 2010 02:26:21 < vensa> don't you find it troublesome that ra\ru can be interpreted as refering to anything including inatimate objects?
22 Jan 2010 02:26:26 < lindar> Uhhh... not really. You're making an unnecessary distinction. We could also have a cmavo {wi/wa/wu} that refers to things which are ovoid and words like ri/ra/ru.
22 Jan 2010 02:26:50 < vensa> if you say: "the ninmu was wearing a shirt.. yada yada yada"
22 Jan 2010 02:26:57 < vensa> I ask "xu ra melbi"
22 Jan 2010 02:27:04 < vensa> am I asking about the woman or the shirt?
22 Jan 2010 02:27:35 < vensa> lindar: Broca made that point earlier
22 Jan 2010 02:27:48 < vensa> I still think there is a basic distinction between a "speaker" and a "non-speaker"
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22 Jan 2010 02:29:44 < lindar> If I said {.i le ninmu ku se taxfu lo creka} and you said {.i xu ri melbi} I'd probably be confused. If you said {.i xu la'e di'u melbi} I'd probably think you were asking about the shirt (the subject of the clause as it were), and if you said {.i xu le go'i ku melbi} I'd know exactly that you meant the ninmu, because {.i xu le se go'i ku melbi} is asking about the shirt.
22 Jan 2010 02:30:26 <@Broca> I'd interpret it as “did it fit her well?”
22 Jan 2010 02:30:42 < lindar> The one with la'e di'u?
22 Jan 2010 02:30:53 < vensa> yeah: le go'i is best
22 Jan 2010 02:31:22 < vensa> but sometimes you want to refer to something that hasn't been mentioned. only that is "around"
22 Jan 2010 02:31:32 < lindar> ...for example?
22 Jan 2010 02:32:31 < vensa> imagine I see a woman far over at the end of the room. I say "xu qu melbi". assume I'm pointing at her for convenience but there is also a huge painting directly behind her.
22 Jan 2010 02:32:42 < vensa> am I asking "is the painting pretty" or "is the woman pretty"?
22 Jan 2010 02:32:55 < lindar> .i xu le vi ninmu ku melbi
22 Jan 2010 02:33:09 < vensa> yeah. but then you have to say "ninmu"
22 Jan 2010 02:33:15 <@Broca> i xu melbi ma
22 Jan 2010 02:33:19 < vensa> what if it's a double headed dragon and I just forgot the lujvo for that?
22 Jan 2010 02:33:47 <@Broca> le se stedu be lo re mei
22 Jan 2010 02:34:00 < vensa> dragon?
22 Jan 2010 02:34:13 <@Broca> No, something that has two heads.
22 Jan 2010 02:34:15 < lindar> The two-headed thing.
22 Jan 2010 02:34:28 < vensa> whatever.. you get my point....
22 Jan 2010 02:34:35 < vensa> it's easier to say "qu"
22 Jan 2010 02:34:56 < vensa> and mean a thing that I am refering to that is innately a speaker
22 Jan 2010 02:35:02 < lindar> Your argument, while somewhat valid, is pointless. You very well could differentiate between the girl and the painting by which one has feet just the same as you could by which one is capable of speech.
22 Jan 2010 02:35:16 < vensa> maybe
22 Jan 2010 02:35:42 < vensa> but don't you think that the vast majority of things that can speak are far more interesting than things that cannot?
22 Jan 2010 02:35:48 < vensa> I don't know how to explain it
22 Jan 2010 02:35:53 < vensa> but don't you "feel" it?
22 Jan 2010 02:35:57 < lindar> Say you're speaking English and there's a girl standing next to a painting of a girl and your friend asks, "Do you think she's cute?".
22 Jan 2010 02:36:03 < vensa> after all: it's a language
22 Jan 2010 02:36:26 < vensa> I'm refering to the Real girl then
22 Jan 2010 02:36:40 < vensa> more probably than the painting
22 Jan 2010 02:37:13 < lindar> You don't know that, you're making a supposition based on what your friend is likely to say, which is exactly what we'd do if he said, {.i xu do jinvi lo du'u ti melbi}.
22 Jan 2010 02:37:50 < vensa> I'm just saying "qu" narrows down the assumptions you can make to "person-type-things"
22 Jan 2010 02:38:13 < lindar> ...okay, and so does "le prenu" or "le melbi" or "le ninmu".
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22 Jan 2010 02:38:54 < vensa> you're right
22 Jan 2010 02:38:56 < lindar> From the perspective of speaking Lojban, making a distinction based on the capability of speech is the same as making a distinction based on colour, the ability to walk, smell, or taste in music.
22 Jan 2010 02:39:09 < vensa> I could basically get by with saying "ra poi prenu" all the time
22 Jan 2010 02:39:22 < vensa> is that what you want to see me do lindar? piss you off saying "ra poi prenu" all the time?
22 Jan 2010 02:39:58 < vensa> then why the distinction of "mi" and "do"?
22 Jan 2010 02:40:08 < lindar> No, because you could just figure out a simple way to say what you mean. Unless the girl is parallel with the picture somehow, you use {ti} to refer to the closer of two things.
22 Jan 2010 02:40:39 < vensa> fine, the "girl" scenario is just an offshoot
22 Jan 2010 02:40:40 < lindar> ...because it would be impossible to speak without a distinction of listener and speaker, but even then it doesn't make a distinction in number.
22 Jan 2010 02:40:46 < vensa> think about the "bebna" scenario
22 Jan 2010 02:41:22 < vensa> I think the "bebna" scenario is needed
22 Jan 2010 02:41:34 < vensa> and the "girl" scenario could be just an "added benefit"
22 Jan 2010 02:42:10 < vensa> you don't want to be stuck saying "da poi puzi cusku zo'u co'e" all the time
22 Jan 2010 02:43:42 <@Broca> Well, you don't have to.
22 Jan 2010 02:43:56 < vensa> how else can I be specific enough?
22 Jan 2010 02:44:19 < vensa> in a room with ppl who all have extremely long names that start with the same letter
22 Jan 2010 02:44:39 <@Broca> lindar, help me. Can you do the “stop suggesting pointless revisions and start learning Lojban as it is” tirade of yours? :-)
22 Jan 2010 02:44:53 < lindar> xD
22 Jan 2010 02:44:57 < lindar> No, cos I used to be the same way.
22 Jan 2010 02:45:00 < vensa> fine i'll drop the subject
22 Jan 2010 02:45:10 < vensa> i just think you should give it a thought
22 Jan 2010 02:45:11 < lindar> Vensa, how would you phrase that in English?
22 Jan 2010 02:45:24 < vensa> phrase what?
22 Jan 2010 02:45:35 < lindar> the qi/qa/qu thing
22 Jan 2010 02:45:50 < lindar> *blah blah blah* You: qi bebna
22 Jan 2010 02:46:12 < vensa> A: blah blah blah B: HE's stupid
22 Jan 2010 02:46:33 < lindar> Yeah, say you're in a room with only guys (not a very unlikely situation). Then what would you say?
22 Jan 2010 02:47:30 < vensa> it would probably be an intonation thing plus a wink while saying "HE's stupid" but I thought that's what lojban is for - for releaving intonation
22 Jan 2010 02:47:55 < lindar> Okay, but say you're on IRC and you can't wink or intone your sentences. How would you say it?
22 Jan 2010 02:48:25 < vensa> I'd use the nick of the person. if I'm on IRC I automatically know everybodies names.
22 Jan 2010 02:48:36 < lindar> OKAY SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
22 Jan 2010 02:48:39 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 02:48:45 < vensa> IRL I don't necessarily know the ppls names
22 Jan 2010 02:48:54 < lindar> >____________>
22 Jan 2010 02:49:08 < lindar> cmavo {ti} glossing to "this here" of selma'o KOhA6 with rafsi -tif-   pro-sumti: this here; immediate demonstrative it; indicated thing/place near speaker.
22 Jan 2010 02:49:25 < lindar> + finger w/ gesture motion
22 Jan 2010 02:49:30 < lindar> Same as you would in English.
22 Jan 2010 02:49:53 < lindar> Demonstrating with a gesture and using a pronoun if you don't want to use their name or don't know it.
22 Jan 2010 02:50:10 < vensa> exactly!
22 Jan 2010 02:50:12 < vensa> but.....!
22 Jan 2010 02:50:17 < lindar> That's how it works in Lojban, too.
22 Jan 2010 02:50:30 < lindar> It's not like Lojbanists don't have fingers or eyes.
22 Jan 2010 02:50:48 < vensa> problem in lojban is that "ti" is closer to english "it" so I could be understood as talking about his nose or his shirt
22 Jan 2010 02:51:11 < lindar> Yeah, but we're talking about -context- here.
22 Jan 2010 02:51:18 < vensa> still
22 Jan 2010 02:51:25 < lindar> Obviously you aren't going to call his nose a fool.
22 Jan 2010 02:51:31 < vensa> isn't lojban about relying on context but also letting you be less vague?
22 Jan 2010 02:51:38 < vensa> why not?
22 Jan 2010 02:51:46 < vensa> maybe he just made a comment about my nose
22 Jan 2010 02:51:49 < lindar> You could be, but we're relying on context.
22 Jan 2010 02:51:52 < vensa> and I wan't to say his nose is stupid
22 Jan 2010 02:52:07 < vensa> there could be a context where the two options would be equally likely
22 Jan 2010 02:52:24 < lindar> If you want to be more specific, then you can say {lo nazbi be la .djan. ku bebna}.
22 Jan 2010 02:52:31 < vensa> I could!
22 Jan 2010 02:52:36 < vensa> but I don't want to be more specific
22 Jan 2010 02:52:45 < lindar> Then you can rely on context like everybody else.
22 Jan 2010 02:52:49 < vensa> just specific enough to ditinguish a "speaker" that has just "spoke"
22 Jan 2010 02:52:58 < vensa> jeez
22 Jan 2010 02:53:07 < vensa> then why not drop half of the lojban vocabulary
22 Jan 2010 02:53:11 < vensa> and "rely oncontext"
22 Jan 2010 02:53:28 < lindar> Okay, let's speak in English for a moment. (...)
22 Jan 2010 02:53:57 < vensa> forget it... I'm sick of trying to make my point
22 Jan 2010 02:54:05 < vensa> you either got it or you don't.
22 Jan 2010 02:54:07 < lindar> "I'm saying something stupid, and you're going to express your opinion about my stupidity using either <<you're>> or <<he's>>."
22 Jan 2010 02:54:23 < lindar> No, I want to understand your point, because it sounds interesting. Don't get butthurt about it.
22 Jan 2010 02:54:29 < vensa> ok
22 Jan 2010 02:55:04 < vensa> I would only say "you're" if I wanted to address you. imagine I'm so mad at you that I'm ignoring you and speak about you only in third person
22 Jan 2010 02:55:16 < lindar> Okay, then you would say in English...?
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22 Jan 2010 02:55:24 < vensa> he's stupid
22 Jan 2010 02:55:33 < vensa> (saying it to the rest of the crowd)
22 Jan 2010 02:55:36 < lindar> ...and you'd say on IRC in English...?
22 Jan 2010 02:55:45 < vensa> lindar's stupid
22 Jan 2010 02:55:52 < vensa> {lindar is stupid}
22 Jan 2010 02:56:16 < vensa> no, how would I say the first one IRL in lojban?
22 Jan 2010 02:56:21 < lindar> ...and I would say in Lojban to the group of people {.i ta bebna} and I would say online {.i vy. bebna}.
22 Jan 2010 02:56:49 < vensa> so "ta bebna" could be referring to my nose!
22 Jan 2010 02:56:54 <@Broca> No.
22 Jan 2010 02:57:00 <@Broca> Because only persons can be bebna.
22 Jan 2010 02:57:00 < lindar> No, because "ta" is a thing that's far away.
22 Jan 2010 02:57:17 < vensa> what>
22 Jan 2010 02:57:18 < vensa> ?
22 Jan 2010 02:57:31 < vensa> A. forget bebna specifity... how about "melbi"?
22 Jan 2010 02:57:39 < vensa> B. my nose is the same distance from u as am I
22 Jan 2010 02:57:50 < vensa> (more or less, depending on it's size)
22 Jan 2010 02:58:32 < vensa> Broca: so that's PROOF (about bebna) that Lojban DOES already distinguish between persons and non-persons
22 Jan 2010 02:58:38 < vensa> tuche'
22 Jan 2010 02:58:50 < lindar> touche!
22 Jan 2010 02:58:55 < vensa> what he said :)
22 Jan 2010 02:59:51 <@Broca> vensa: semantically, but not grammatically.
22 Jan 2010 03:00:07 <@Broca> The word “blanu” also distinguishes between things and ideas.
22 Jan 2010 03:00:16 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 03:01:08 < vensa> fine. but we distinguish between places and times gramatically, when essentially "space and time are the same" said einstein
22 Jan 2010 03:01:21 < vensa> wy do we do that? in order rto comply with human experience
22 Jan 2010 03:01:27 < vensa> same for persons IMO
22 Jan 2010 03:01:28 < lindar> Yeah, we can use time tenses as space tenses and vice-versa.
22 Jan 2010 03:02:02 < vensa> can. but there's an inherent difference for the "default" meaning
22 Jan 2010 03:02:25 < lindar> Okay...
22 Jan 2010 03:02:30 < vensa> ca is time related. vi is space related
22 Jan 2010 03:02:43 < lindar> Yes, we experience each differently, despite them being interrelated.
22 Jan 2010 03:02:51 < vensa> good
22 Jan 2010 03:03:00 < vensa> so do we experience persons differently from "things"
22 Jan 2010 03:03:15 < lindar> People -are- "things".
22 Jan 2010 03:03:16 < vensa> it's not like the sexist proposition of "he vs she"
22 Jan 2010 03:03:30 < vensa> but more "evolved" things
22 Jan 2010 03:03:48 < lindar> Wow, say that when you get eaten by a bear.
22 Jan 2010 03:03:57 < vensa> things that in them selves wield the language
22 Jan 2010 03:04:27 < vensa> you don't think yourself to be more evolved than a bear?
22 Jan 2010 03:04:31 < lindar> le prenu, le jbopli, le cusku . . .
22 Jan 2010 03:04:43 < lindar> He just fucking ate you. Who's on top of the food chain now?
22 Jan 2010 03:04:51 < vensa> hehehe
22 Jan 2010 03:05:49 < vensa> all I'm asking for is a distinction between "things" that can be "mi"'s and "do"s to other things that don't speak and don't care to listen :)
22 Jan 2010 03:06:16 < lindar> ...and if you're in a real-life situation, {.i ly. bebna} indicating the same way you would in English. For the painting vs. girl, {.i le va prenu ku melbi}.
22 Jan 2010 03:06:26 < lindar> Plants can listen.
22 Jan 2010 03:06:36 < lindar> Do plants qualify?
22 Jan 2010 03:06:45 < vensa> look:
22 Jan 2010 03:06:50 < vensa> let's start over.
22 Jan 2010 03:07:01 < lindar> Hi, I'm Lindar.
22 Jan 2010 03:07:02 < vensa> qi refers to the "thing" that has just spoken
22 Jan 2010 03:07:08 < vensa> be serious!
22 Jan 2010 03:07:13 < lindar> *serious*
22 Jan 2010 03:07:29 < vensa> qu refers to something that has spoken sometime in the distant future
22 Jan 2010 03:07:32 < lindar> .i xu do djusku zoi zoi le zi cusku zoi
22 Jan 2010 03:07:55 < lindar> I thought qu was in the past.
22 Jan 2010 03:08:07 < vensa> so, all I'm saying is that "as an added bonus" I can use qu to clarify I am refering to something that "probably" has spoken sometime in the past
22 Jan 2010 03:08:12 < vensa> I'm not saying it's perfect
22 Jan 2010 03:08:27 < vensa> just that I think it's better than pointing and saying "it"
22 Jan 2010 03:08:36 < lindar> .i do djisku zoi zoi le pu cusku zoi
22 Jan 2010 03:08:41 < lindar> vau xu
22 Jan 2010 03:08:43 < vensa> sorry.. I meant past - not future
22 Jan 2010 03:09:08 < vensa> lindar: spare me the glossing and say it in english
22 Jan 2010 03:09:57 < lindar> I can't because it isn't an English term. I think {le zi cusku} is like "the recent speaker" and {le pu cusku} is the thing that has spoken some time in the past.
22 Jan 2010 03:10:12 < vensa> oh
22 Jan 2010 03:10:32 < vensa> I guess that could work
22 Jan 2010 03:10:43 < vensa> I still think it deserves a cmavo of it's own
22 Jan 2010 03:10:46 < vensa> {its}
22 Jan 2010 03:10:47 < lindar> Is that what you meant by these terms?
22 Jan 2010 03:10:57 < vensa> I think so
22 Jan 2010 03:11:32 < vensa> but you could also define "vi" as "le se zvati pe mi"
22 Jan 2010 03:11:38 < vensa> but it still has a diff short cmavo
22 Jan 2010 03:12:04 < lindar> qi - le zi cusku / le puzi cusku, qa - le za cusku / le puza cusku, etc.
22 Jan 2010 03:12:25 < vensa> yeah... is that the Lojban definition you were asking about?
22 Jan 2010 03:12:31 < lindar> Kinda yeah.
22 Jan 2010 03:12:35 < vensa> cool
22 Jan 2010 03:13:17 < vensa> I think the addition to the qi definition is that it is also unambiguosly understood as the exact previous speaker. not just one of the (perhaps many) ppl who have recently spoken
22 Jan 2010 03:13:34 < vensa> because "zi" is ambiguous like that
22 Jan 2010 03:13:51 < vensa> it should be more like "ri ra ru"
22 Jan 2010 03:14:06 < vensa> as in, if I said "qa" about something, then "qu" is some earlier speaker
22 Jan 2010 03:14:31 < vensa> I think we should try to experimednt with it, see how it goes
22 Jan 2010 03:16:13 < vensa> oh.. also: it should not be "self referring"
22 Jan 2010 03:16:21 < vensa> if now I say "qi bebna"
22 Jan 2010 03:16:27 < lindar> I'd use the def {.i zo *cmavo you pick* du zoi zoi le puzi cusku ku} and/or explain exactly what you mean, and ask Broca, RLP, clsn, xalbo, Timos, Twey, selkik, and the Lojban mailing list.
22 Jan 2010 03:16:38 < vensa> I still mean lindar is foolish, beacuse If I wantedt to say I am foolish I would have just used "mi"
22 Jan 2010 03:17:38 < vensa> wow... that sounds like hard work.
22 Jan 2010 03:18:06 < vensa> wasn't it hard enough just to discuss this with you for the past hour (?)
22 Jan 2010 03:18:09 < vensa> :)
22 Jan 2010 03:18:30 < lindar> Well, if you're serious about using it, you should probably go about asking pretty much everybody and/or posting it to the mailing list (to which you should be subscribed, by the way).
22 Jan 2010 03:18:50 < vensa> oh... well... maybe I'll do that
22 Jan 2010 03:18:51 < vensa> thanks
22 Jan 2010 03:19:39 < vensa> what do you think of "ri'iu\ri'ia\ri'ii"?
22 Jan 2010 03:20:08 < vensa> no wait
22 Jan 2010 03:20:23 < vensa> ri'ui\ri'ua\ri'uu
22 Jan 2010 03:20:36 < vensa> or ri'ui for the latter
22 Jan 2010 03:20:47 < vensa> I mean ri'iu
22 Jan 2010 03:20:51 < vensa> nm
22 Jan 2010 03:20:55 < vensa> I'll figure it out
22 Jan 2010 03:20:56 < lindar> I can't actually pronounce that.
22 Jan 2010 03:21:54 < vensa> :)
22 Jan 2010 03:21:58 < vensa> de'a jundi
22 Jan 2010 03:22:04 < lindar> ko'a'i
22 Jan 2010 03:22:09 < lindar> ko'a'a
22 Jan 2010 03:22:12 < lindar> ko'a'u
22 Jan 2010 03:22:29 < lindar> The rest of two-letter cmavo space is taken up.
22 Jan 2010 03:22:45 < lindar> I think all of CVV and CVhV is as well.
22 Jan 2010 03:22:57 < vensa> do'o'i\do'o'a\do'o'u?
22 Jan 2010 03:23:52 < vensa> well.. whatever... ko'a'a is cute also
22 Jan 2010 03:23:56 < vensa> de'a
22 Jan 2010 03:25:38 < lindar> <Broca> Might catch on, but you can't have q in a Lojban word. You'd need xV(')V series, or CV(')V(')V*-series
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22 Jan 2010 03:27:12 < lindar> By the time you muscle out {.i do'o'i bebna} I could manage {.i le zi cusku ku bebna} or just say {.i do bebna}. =\
22 Jan 2010 03:27:17 < lindar> Run with it, though!
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22 Jan 2010 03:45:24 < lindar> >_>
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22 Jan 2010 03:49:57 < djanatyn> hey, lindar!
22 Jan 2010 03:50:03 < djanatyn> I just installed linux again! \o/
22 Jan 2010 03:54:19 < lindar> Yay!
22 Jan 2010 03:58:43 < lindar> djan, what do you think of a cmavo that works like go'i, but refers to the last person to speak?
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22 Jan 2010 04:16:50 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 04:16:58 < lindar> Nevermind, just run in and yell, then leave.
22 Jan 2010 04:16:58 < lindar> Jerk.
22 Jan 2010 04:18:05 < lericson> djanatyn: this is a hilight
22 Jan 2010 04:19:45 < lindar> It's your!
22 Jan 2010 04:19:50 < lindar> ...you*
22 Jan 2010 04:20:18 < lindar> lericson, did you see that big schpiel about "qi" in the backscroll?
22 Jan 2010 04:21:33 < lericson> I don't mean to come across as rude or anything, but I actually am not very involved in Lojban at all. I just idle in this channel, pretend to know Lojban, and interject useless commentary.
22 Jan 2010 04:23:50 < lericson> du kan forka nu om du vill
22 Jan 2010 04:23:51 < lericson> wop
22 Jan 2010 04:24:29 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 04:27:07 -!- djanatyn-fonxa [n=djanatyn@174-147-200-188.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 04:27:09 < djanatyn-fonxa> coi
22 Jan 2010 04:28:06 < lericson> fonxacilious
22 Jan 2010 04:28:31 < djanatyn-fonxa> mutce kukte
22 Jan 2010 04:30:01 < djanatyn-fonxa> mi zvati lo sorprekarce .i mi jinvi lo du'u loi prenu cu fengu
22 Jan 2010 04:30:08 < djanatyn-fonxa> mi na djuno o_O
22 Jan 2010 04:33:22 < lindar> .i lo nu rodo fengu cu lakne
22 Jan 2010 04:43:12 < djanatyn-fonxa> .ue la lindar
22 Jan 2010 04:43:37 < djanatyn-fonxa> xu do pu sipna
22 Jan 2010 04:44:30 < lindar> .yyyy na zi sipna
22 Jan 2010 04:59:17 < lindar> -____-
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22 Jan 2010 05:01:53 < lindar> Awesome.
22 Jan 2010 05:08:40 < vensa> di'a jundi
22 Jan 2010 05:12:43 < lindar> hullooooo
22 Jan 2010 05:12:46  * lindar flops.
22 Jan 2010 05:13:13 < vensa> xu do vi nonkansa
22 Jan 2010 05:14:07 < lindar> .i goooooooooo'i >_>
22 Jan 2010 05:14:22 < vensa> uudai
22 Jan 2010 05:14:42 < vensa> ti'u ma do sipna
22 Jan 2010 05:17:12 < lindar> .yyyy mi na te notci
22 Jan 2010 05:17:45 < vensa> ur not an author?
22 Jan 2010 05:21:44 < vensa> ganai da'i do gasnu noda gi mu'i ma do na co'a sipna
22 Jan 2010 05:24:11 < vensa> zo'oi schpiel mo
22 Jan 2010 05:24:35 < lindar> {ti'u} glossing to "associated with time", "at" in the sense of "(indicating time)"   tcika modal, 1st place (for letters)              associated with time ... ; attach time stamp.
22 Jan 2010 05:24:52 < vensa> so?
22 Jan 2010 05:25:33 < lindar> cmavo cluster {ca ma} glossing to "when?" of selma'o PU*   sumti question asking for a time/date/event; simultaneous with what?.
22 Jan 2010 05:25:42 < vensa> you're right
22 Jan 2010 05:25:49 < vensa> I forgot that one. that IS better
22 Jan 2010 05:26:21 < vensa> va'i ca ma do sipna
22 Jan 2010 05:29:03 < lindar> li mo'a tcika lo nu mi sipna
22 Jan 2010 05:29:32 < lindar> to zo'o toi
22 Jan 2010 05:29:34 < mathw> Oooh
22 Jan 2010 05:29:48 < mathw> So if I use {ti'u} I can say when something will happen/did happen
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22 Jan 2010 05:30:27 < lindar> It's a time stamp.
22 Jan 2010 05:32:49 < vensa> how do I ask: "for how long"? is there a way to use the "ze'a" cmavo?
22 Jan 2010 05:32:51 < lindar> ta'o doi vy. lo nu do pilno zo kui cu cumki lo nu zo kui drani valsi
22 Jan 2010 05:33:36 < vensa> who said "kui"?
22 Jan 2010 05:34:42 < mathw> Can you quote {kui} with {zo} when {kui} isn't a defined word? (nitpicking, I know, but I'm curious)
22 Jan 2010 05:34:52 < vensa> yeah lindar
22 Jan 2010 05:35:13 < vensa> makfa says: ungramatical
22 Jan 2010 05:35:43 < vensa> 1-0 against lindar :)
22 Jan 2010 05:36:00 < lindar> .i za'a do nitcu lo valsi zoi zoi lo zi cusku zoi
22 Jan 2010 05:36:54 < lindar> .yyyy la makfa ku cusku di'u ki'u lo nu zo kui na jbovlaste valsi
22 Jan 2010 05:37:34 < vensa> it's not a valsi at all
22 Jan 2010 05:37:43 < vensa> or is it? what's it meant?
22 Jan 2010 05:37:46 < vensa> IYO
22 Jan 2010 05:38:31 < lindar> -_______- You're wholly missing my point here. {kui} is an unused word, it appears to be valid cmavo morphology, and perhaps you can use it for whatever your retarded word is that I disagree with.
22 Jan 2010 05:38:48 < vensa> huh?
22 Jan 2010 05:38:48 < lindar> kui/kua/kuu
22 Jan 2010 05:38:53 < vensa> which one of my retarded words?
22 Jan 2010 05:38:54 < vensa> oh
22 Jan 2010 05:39:03 < vensa> cool
22 Jan 2010 05:39:17 < vensa> but I thought that for experimental purposes you must use a 4 letter cmavo
22 Jan 2010 05:39:30 < vensa> (5 actually)
22 Jan 2010 05:39:32  * lindar shrugs.
22 Jan 2010 05:39:40 < lindar> Just a thought.
22 Jan 2010 05:39:45 < vensa> thanks :)
22 Jan 2010 05:40:01 < lindar> It's still a retarded word. >_>
22 Jan 2010 05:40:03 < vensa> once it's accepted perhaps we could use kui... IF it ever is
22 Jan 2010 05:40:10 < vensa> <3 thanks
22 Jan 2010 05:40:16 < mathw> I think you've got a lot of work to do if you want to convince people
22 Jan 2010 05:40:17  * lindar invents a word that refers to the last person to walk.
22 Jan 2010 05:40:40 < vensa> mathw: I'm not trying to "convince" anybody
22 Jan 2010 05:40:49 < mathw> I'm just not going to venture an opinion on it, as I don't even know most of the existing pro-things
22 Jan 2010 05:40:55 < vensa> ppl who need this word will quickly adopt it
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22 Jan 2010 05:41:11 < vensa> that's ok, we've been discussing it for too long anyway
22 Jan 2010 05:41:14 < lindar> xD
22 Jan 2010 05:41:21 < vensa> how's about my "duration" question?
22 Jan 2010 05:41:35 < lindar> Yes, and then they'll also use the pro-sumti for the last person to walk. >_>
22 Jan 2010 05:41:39 -!- GGLucas [n=GGLucas@5357F9E6.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 05:41:41  * mathw knows {ri} and that's about it
22 Jan 2010 05:42:17 < lindar> {.i ma temci}
22 Jan 2010 05:42:38 < lindar> Now there's something we could actually use. Why isn't there a temci modal?
22 Jan 2010 05:42:40 < vensa> lindar: using ze'a
22 Jan 2010 05:44:08 < lindar> ...
22 Jan 2010 05:44:50 < vensa> hows this:?
22 Jan 2010 05:44:53 < vensa> do ze'i je'i ze'a je'i ze'u sipna ca lo'e cabdei
22 Jan 2010 05:45:47 < lindar> ...very confusing....
22 Jan 2010 05:45:54 < mathw> Is that a question about how long you're sleeping today?
22 Jan 2010 05:46:16 < vensa> I think it is.... on a typical day
22 Jan 2010 05:46:21 < lindar> .i ma temci lo nu do sipna
22 Jan 2010 05:46:39 < lindar> If you want to be explicit, {.i ma temci lo nu do sipna lo nu do to'e sipna}.
22 Jan 2010 05:47:08 < vensa> that seems confusing too
22 Jan 2010 05:47:22 < lindar> ...or {.i ma se cacra lo nu do sipna}
22 Jan 2010 05:47:23 < mathw> It's more direct about wanting to know how long
22 Jan 2010 05:47:37 < vensa> yeah. the shorter one with temci is good
22 Jan 2010 05:47:45 < vensa> but i'd want to add "ca lo'e cabdei"
22 Jan 2010 05:47:49 < mathw> the one with {cacra} is even better
22 Jan 2010 05:47:53 < mathw> IMO
22 Jan 2010 05:48:10 < vensa> but then you're being particular about "hours.
22 Jan 2010 05:48:10 < mathw> although it's a shame it asks explicitly in hours
22 Jan 2010 05:48:16 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 05:48:21 < vensa> knowing lindar. the answer is prob. measured in seconds
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22 Jan 2010 05:49:39 < lindar> There's temci, snidu, djedi, mentu, cacra, masti, nanca, and tcika.
22 Jan 2010 05:49:54 < lindar> We have eight different time words you can use.
22 Jan 2010 05:50:08 < lindar> Pick one.
22 Jan 2010 05:50:45 < vensa> do sipna ca lo'e cabdei fi'o temci fe'u ma
22 Jan 2010 05:51:35 < vensa> there really should be a modal for that... too bad "tei" is taken for something stupid
22 Jan 2010 05:54:07 < lindar> ...that's unusually complicated when you could just say {.i ma temci lo'e nu sipna}.
22 Jan 2010 05:54:18 < lindar> "How long do you typically sleep?"
22 Jan 2010 05:54:47 < vensa> cool
22 Jan 2010 05:55:20 < lindar> However, points for using lo'e as I never use that.
22 Jan 2010 05:55:58 < vensa> yay!
22 Jan 2010 05:56:02 < vensa> 1-0 to me
22 Jan 2010 05:57:07 -!- kribacr [i=42c07e03@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvngubianxcsxcud] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 05:57:51 < mathw> coi la .kribacr.
22 Jan 2010 05:58:38 < lindar> kribacr, are you here, or was that an auto log?
22 Jan 2010 05:59:47 < kribacr> coi fo'e
22 Jan 2010 05:59:56 < kribacr> coi la'oi .mathw.
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22 Jan 2010 06:00:23 < lindar> >_<
22 Jan 2010 06:00:26 < vensa> lindar: you got so caught up in the wording that you didn't actually answer
22 Jan 2010 06:00:43 < lindar> Okay, vensa, tell kribacr about your new word you want to use.
22 Jan 2010 06:00:51 < vensa> do I have to?
22 Jan 2010 06:01:01 < vensa> "coi fo'e"???
22 Jan 2010 06:01:14 < lindar> ((btw: anywhere from li mo'a to li rau))
22 Jan 2010 06:01:19 < kribacr> vensa: Either that or I stepped afk, I usually am at work when I'm on here and am subject to being whisked away.
22 Jan 2010 06:01:20 < vensa> fo'e goi ma
22 Jan 2010 06:01:26 < kribacr> lindar is
22 Jan 2010 06:01:35 < kribacr> Woops, bumped the enter key.
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22 Jan 2010 06:01:48 < vensa> why is lindar "it-7"?
22 Jan 2010 06:01:49 < kribacr> lindar is fo'e. fo'e doesn't like gender specific pronouns, so I named him fo'e. (lololol)
22 Jan 2010 06:02:11 < vensa> lindar: that's a very helpful answer :)
22 Jan 2010 06:02:32 < kribacr> So what was the word he wants to use?
22 Jan 2010 06:02:35 < lindar> kribacr: Long story short, vensa wants to create a pro-sumti that functions like go'i for back-counting rules, but refers only to people that have spoken. So *whatever*-i is the previous speaker, *whatever*-a is a speaker before that, etc.
22 Jan 2010 06:03:00 < lindar> Like {lo zi cusku} I guess.
22 Jan 2010 06:03:06 < vensa> qi\qa\qu form
22 Jan 2010 06:03:43 < vensa> but more specific than simply "lo zi cusku" because it's precisely the last speaker, not just a "short-time-ago speaker"
22 Jan 2010 06:03:51 < vensa> (that would be qi ofcourse)
22 Jan 2010 06:03:53 < kribacr> Yeah, no.
22 Jan 2010 06:04:13 < kribacr> And I already assigned the q to a vaginal fricative.
22 Jan 2010 06:04:17 < vensa> qi bebna
22 Jan 2010 06:04:24 < lindar> xD
22 Jan 2010 06:04:34 < vensa> q is a temporary placeholder
22 Jan 2010 06:04:41 < kribacr> I gathered that.
22 Jan 2010 06:04:44 < vensa> man! why does everybody here have to be so "tight"
22 Jan 2010 06:04:52 < vensa> oh, thanks
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22 Jan 2010 06:04:57 < kribacr> I think the problem is that you *think* everyone is so "tight".
22 Jan 2010 06:04:59 < kribacr> :)
22 Jan 2010 06:05:07 < vensa> may-be
22 Jan 2010 06:05:23 < kribacr> Anyway... why do you need this?
22 Jan 2010 06:05:34 < kribacr> So these are pro-sumti that only refer to speakers?
22 Jan 2010 06:05:35 <@Broca> vensa: Lojban is the kind of language that attracts “tight” people.
22 Jan 2010 06:05:35 < vensa> vaginas have much more than one kind of noise... wouldn't u need a whole range of phonemes?
22 Jan 2010 06:05:49 < kribacr> vensa: Now you're being too tight.
22 Jan 2010 06:05:50 < kribacr> :P
22 Jan 2010 06:05:52 < vensa> Broca: :)
22 Jan 2010 06:06:02 < vensa> :)
22 Jan 2010 06:06:27 < vensa> kribacr: So these are pro-sumti that only refer to speakers? <-------exactly
22 Jan 2010 06:06:51 < kribacr> That seems ... fairly specific.
22 Jan 2010 06:06:52 < vensa> to avoid the confusion that "ri\ra\ru\ti\ta\tu" have between ppl and things
22 Jan 2010 06:06:58 < kribacr> I'm not sure I've ever wanted that.
22 Jan 2010 06:07:07 < kribacr> Well, the thing about tV is that they are really hard to use on IRC.
22 Jan 2010 06:07:12 < kribacr> Much easier to use IRL because you can point!
22 Jan 2010 06:07:26 < kribacr> And there's no confusion between people and things.
22 Jan 2010 06:07:30 < kribacr> People ARE things.
22 Jan 2010 06:07:34 < lindar> THANK YOU
22 Jan 2010 06:07:42 < vensa> i KNOW they are
22 Jan 2010 06:07:45 < kribacr> It's not insulting to point at someone and address them as {ta}.
22 Jan 2010 06:07:47 < kribacr> It's just not.
22 Jan 2010 06:07:52 < kribacr> Not in lojban. In English, maybe.
22 Jan 2010 06:08:18 < vensa> yeah.. but imagine you want to clarify that you are talking about the person and not the shirt he is wearing
22 Jan 2010 06:08:25 < kribacr> Should be obvious from context.
22 Jan 2010 06:08:31 < vensa> not necessarily
22 Jan 2010 06:09:19 < vensa> we gave several examples b4
22 Jan 2010 06:09:24 < kribacr> Can you repeat?
22 Jan 2010 06:09:33 < vensa> hmmm... which was the best example lindar?
22 Jan 2010 06:09:49 < lindar> Scroll up. =D
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22 Jan 2010 06:10:05 < vensa> I'm asking your *opinion* to pick *one*
22 Jan 2010 06:10:44 < vensa> well... how about I point in the direction of a girl. the girl is standing next to a picture. I ask you: xu ti melbi do
22 Jan 2010 06:10:58 < vensa> what am I asking?
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22 Jan 2010 06:12:04 <@Broca> You are asking if I find what you are pointing to beautiful.
22 Jan 2010 06:12:33 < kribacr> You can always just point and say {.i xu lo ninmu ku melbi do}
22 Jan 2010 06:12:39 < vensa> in english I could distinguish between: Is it pretty? and Is she pretty?
22 Jan 2010 06:12:44 < cmacis> coi rodo
22 Jan 2010 06:12:50 < vensa> kribacr: good point.. but
22 Jan 2010 06:12:59 < vensa> then you need to use the word "ninmu"
22 Jan 2010 06:13:10 < kribacr> Or...
22 Jan 2010 06:13:15 < vensa> now imagine, instead of a "niunmu" it's a two-headed-speaking-dragon
22 Jan 2010 06:13:22 < kribacr> .i xu ta ro'u melbi do
22 Jan 2010 06:13:22 < vensa> go ahead and say that simply....
22 Jan 2010 06:13:40 < vensa> what if it's a boy
22 Jan 2010 06:13:48 < vensa> what if I'm not asking about a "sexual" sense
22 Jan 2010 06:13:58 <@Broca> xu ti poi dragone cu melbi do
22 Jan 2010 06:14:00 < kribacr> ro'a then?
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22 Jan 2010 06:14:05 < vensa> dragone?????
22 Jan 2010 06:14:18 <@Broca> It's a valid fu'ivla, I think.
22 Jan 2010 06:14:29 < vensa> what if it's an autistic boy?
22 Jan 2010 06:14:32 < kribacr> Yep. CCVCVCV parses.
22 Jan 2010 06:14:38 <@Broca> sincycrida, Jbovlaste says.
22 Jan 2010 06:14:43 < vensa> broca: well it has to be two-eaded
22 Jan 2010 06:14:46 < lindar> Probably mean {ro'o}. Physically attractive.
22 Jan 2010 06:15:03 < kribacr> Okay, I get your point. If there's nothing short, just use poi.
22 Jan 2010 06:15:10 <@Broca> vensa: so I can say that I'm pointing to the two-headed one instead of the five-headed one that's standing next to it?
22 Jan 2010 06:15:24 < vensa> yeah... "poi prenu"
22 Jan 2010 06:15:33 < vensa> but do we really want to say "poi prenu" all the time?
22 Jan 2010 06:15:42 < kribacr> Yes, yes we do. Learn to point.
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22 Jan 2010 06:16:16 < kribacr> vensa: Even if we add a differentiation between people and things - what if you are pointing in the direction of two things?
22 Jan 2010 06:16:17 < lindar> No, which is why we leave it to context. ! ! ! If you want to be that explicit, why don't you include all of your terminators?
22 Jan 2010 06:16:30 < lindar> WAH!! Why didn't I think of that argument?
22 Jan 2010 06:16:40 < vensa> kribacr: you're right
22 Jan 2010 06:16:43 < lindar> More importantly, what if they both speak at the same time?
22 Jan 2010 06:16:56 < vensa> I just think it would add another level of disambiguity that is very common in everyday life
22 Jan 2010 06:17:01 < kribacr> What if they don't speak?
22 Jan 2010 06:17:15 < kribacr> Sorry, we tend to have very people-centric views because ... we're people.
22 Jan 2010 06:17:18 < vensa> I mean, can you show me a natural language that doesn't distinguish between "it"s and "he\she"s?
22 Jan 2010 06:17:33 < kribacr> I don't know of any, but I also don't know many languages.
22 Jan 2010 06:17:52 < kribacr> But natural languages aren't logic languages like lojban is.
22 Jan 2010 06:17:52 < vensa> but isn't this language FOR ppl?
22 Jan 2010 06:18:24 < kribacr> Of course it is! But it's not very logical to create an entire subset of pro-sumti just for people.
22 Jan 2010 06:18:36 < lindar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutrality_in_genderless_languages
22 Jan 2010 06:18:37 < vensa> I'm not even talking about PPL here. a computer could be considered a "qi" if it uses text-to-speech
22 Jan 2010 06:18:43 < vensa> or, an alien
22 Jan 2010 06:19:01 < mathw> I don't get why it's a valid or necessary distinction to have 'thing that talks'
22 Jan 2010 06:19:09 < vensa> lindar. I'm PRO gender-neutrality
22 Jan 2010 06:19:38 < vensa> just distinguish between "Intellignet\living\speaking" things and boring inatimate stuff
22 Jan 2010 06:19:53 < vensa> distinguish between things that can "use" the language and things that "cannot"
22 Jan 2010 06:20:10 < kribacr> I apologize, but you're not likely to change many people's minds. I think it's rather nice that we can use {ta} for people, to be honest.
22 Jan 2010 06:20:15 < vensa> mathw: it's not exactly a "thing that talks distinction"
22 Jan 2010 06:20:18 < kribacr> I'm glad there ISN'T a difference.
22 Jan 2010 06:20:22 < vensa> it's more like a he\it distinction
22 Jan 2010 06:20:35 < vensa> u could still use ta
22 Jan 2010 06:20:50 < lindar> >_____> I don't understand why you have to have a cmavo for this.
22 Jan 2010 06:20:58 < vensa> btw: pointing isn't that polite :P
22 Jan 2010 06:21:04 < lindar> You -can- express it when context doesn't make it obvious.
22 Jan 2010 06:21:05 < mathw> It's not necessarily pointing
22 Jan 2010 06:21:08 < lindar> Also, in what country?
22 Jan 2010 06:21:19 < mathw> there are other ways to indicate what you're talking about
22 Jan 2010 06:21:23 < lindar> You're not being culturally neutral. It's wholly normal to point at people in Asian countries.
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22 Jan 2010 06:21:55 < vensa> what if the person ur talkking about isnt in the room
22 Jan 2010 06:22:07 < lindar> Then they couldn't have spoken, and therefore you couldn't use your neat little word.
22 Jan 2010 06:22:17 < vensa> of course they have spoken
22 Jan 2010 06:22:20 < lindar> ...and you'd probably just call them by their name, or describe them.
22 Jan 2010 06:22:24 < vensa> I'm telling a story about my mother
22 Jan 2010 06:22:31 < vensa> then I want to say "she told me..."
22 Jan 2010 06:22:43 < vensa> lindar: the first time yes.
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22 Jan 2010 06:22:46 < vensa> but, in back reference?
22 Jan 2010 06:22:49 < lindar> Well obviously you'd have to, at some point, mention the subject.
22 Jan 2010 06:23:02 < vensa> and then use "ra" to point back?
22 Jan 2010 06:23:30 < lindar> {.i lo mamta be mi ku klama la .klivland. .i lo go'i ku nelci la .klivland.}
22 Jan 2010 06:23:57 < vensa> lindar. using lo go'i is simple in text because you see the previous sentence in front of you
22 Jan 2010 06:24:06 < lindar> ...or {ri nelci}, or {.i lo mamta be mi ku goi ko'a} and continue talking about ko'a...
22 Jan 2010 06:24:10 < vensa> in speech it's hard to remember the place of the thing you want to back reference
22 Jan 2010 06:24:18 < lindar> Yeah, because you don't speak Lojban.
22 Jan 2010 06:24:31 < vensa> also. what if you want to backreference two sentences back? becuz the immediate previous sentence didnt mention her
22 Jan 2010 06:24:35 < lindar> I think it's pretty damn hard to remember all those verb conjugations in Japanese, but somehow a few million people do that every day.
22 Jan 2010 06:24:43 < lindar> go'e
22 Jan 2010 06:24:54 < vensa> the problem with ko'a is that you have to assign it first
22 Jan 2010 06:25:01 < vensa> that's bit clumsy
22 Jan 2010 06:25:17 < lindar> ...but "a speaker at some point in the past" isn't?
22 Jan 2010 06:25:25 < vensa> so not only do I have to remember what slot she occupied, I also have to remember how manyt sentences back??
22 Jan 2010 06:25:31 < lindar> How does that correlate?
22 Jan 2010 06:25:32 < vensa> clumsy: no
22 Jan 2010 06:25:53 < vensa> lindar: it's just u and me arguing again :P
22 Jan 2010 06:25:55 <@Broca> vensa: if she is important enough, you remember her.
22 Jan 2010 06:25:57 <@Broca> :-)
22 Jan 2010 06:26:13 < lindar> If {qi} is somebody that JUST spoke, and we're following back-counting rules, how the FEK can you use {qu} to refer to the topic of a conversation when she hasn't even spoken in it?
22 Jan 2010 06:26:48 < lindar> More importantly, how do you remember what that means when you plan on continuing to repeat it for several jufra and you haven't officially assigned it a meaning?
22 Jan 2010 06:26:52 < lindar> That's going off of context anyway!
22 Jan 2010 06:26:53 < vensa> it's implied because "who else could I be refering to"?
22 Jan 2010 06:27:15 < lindar> COS YOU COULD BE TALKING ABOUT HER NOSE
22 Jan 2010 06:27:22 < vensa> it's the same vagueness surrounding "ra"
22 Jan 2010 06:27:25 < lindar> OMG DID I NOT JUST MAKE THAT SAME ARGUMENT FIVE MINUTES AGO?
22 Jan 2010 06:27:29 < vensa> her nose is not a speaker
22 Jan 2010 06:27:43 < vensa> that's exactly the problem with ra
22 Jan 2010 06:27:46 < lindar> Nor is her nose the obvious referent of a clause.
22 Jan 2010 06:27:50 < vensa> with ra I could be talk,ing about her nose
22 Jan 2010 06:27:58 < vensa> and pls avoid the casp
22 Jan 2010 06:28:01 < vensa> caps
22 Jan 2010 06:28:07 < lindar> >_>
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22 Jan 2010 06:28:25 < vensa> I think I killed him...
22 Jan 2010 06:28:51 < kribacr> When talking about previous topics, {le} comes to mind.
22 Jan 2010 06:29:07 < kribacr> There's always letterals as well.
22 Jan 2010 06:29:13 < vensa> yes, but with le you need to specify the thing itself
22 Jan 2010 06:29:30 < vensa> letterals are the ugliest IMO
22 Jan 2010 06:30:03 < vensa> besides. imagine the hypothetical situation where many things start with the same letter
22 Jan 2010 06:30:13 < kribacr> If you anticipate talking about something for a while, just (goi BY) it.
22 Jan 2010 06:30:15 < vensa> {many plausible things}
22 Jan 2010 06:30:27 < vensa> I don't like planning ahead like that
22 Jan 2010 06:30:31 < vensa> I'm a spontaneouis guy
22 Jan 2010 06:31:54 < vensa> do you really not see the necessity to distinguish a "who" from a "what"?
22 Jan 2010 06:32:01 < kribacr> If you're in the pixra / ninmu situation, I think .i xu ta goi ny. melbi do seems reasonable. You're hinting that the {ta} is n-related.
22 Jan 2010 06:32:07 < vensa> call me malglico, but IMO many languages do so
22 Jan 2010 06:32:12 < kribacr> It's very malglico.
22 Jan 2010 06:32:16 < kribacr> This isn't like many languages.
22 Jan 2010 06:32:34 < vensa> fine, whatever....
22 Jan 2010 06:32:37 < mathw> "another language does it" is a terrible reason
22 Jan 2010 06:32:43 < vensa> so you'll end up with only computers using it
22 Jan 2010 06:32:50 < mathw> other languages have irregular verbs
22 Jan 2010 06:32:56 < vensa> not THAT terrible if EVERY language does
22 Jan 2010 06:33:06 < kribacr> I've not had a problem with the pro-sumti system.
22 Jan 2010 06:33:07 < vensa> that's not the same thing mathw
22 Jan 2010 06:33:18 < mathw> I know, I'm just attempting the use of outlandish analogy
22 Jan 2010 06:33:19 < vensa> fine... maybe it's just me
22 Jan 2010 06:33:39 -!- lindar [n=lindarth@rrcs-173-196-20-139.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 06:33:45 < vensa> also: what if it wasn't a picture but something else that starts with n?
22 Jan 2010 06:33:50 < kribacr> Okay, sure.
22 Jan 2010 06:33:58 < kribacr> You're being nitpicky. The point is there are ways to say what you want to say.
22 Jan 2010 06:34:08 < vensa> of course there are
22 Jan 2010 06:34:09 < kribacr> They just require one or two more words that you seem to be absolutely unnecessary.
22 Jan 2010 06:34:22 < vensa> there are also ways to say "here, there, and yonder" so let's kill vi\va\vu
22 Jan 2010 06:34:42 < kribacr> Besides, any qV is going to have to be a CV'VV, which is long as well.
22 Jan 2010 06:35:05 < vensa> not as long as ppl's names or long lujvos
22 Jan 2010 06:35:28 < vensa> and I really don't see the letteral approach as a candidate...that's so unelegant
22 Jan 2010 06:35:39 < kribacr> Unelegant?
22 Jan 2010 06:35:46 < vensa> yeah...
22 Jan 2010 06:35:50 < kribacr> Seriously?
22 Jan 2010 06:35:52 < vensa> relying on the letter a word starts with
22 Jan 2010 06:35:56 < vensa> yes seriously
22 Jan 2010 06:36:07 < vensa> are we playing "I spy";?
22 Jan 2010 06:36:09 < kribacr> How is it different from relying on the shape or color of it?
22 Jan 2010 06:36:21 < vensa> shape and color are obvious
22 Jan 2010 06:36:25 < kribacr> Or the fact that it can talk, in your case?
22 Jan 2010 06:36:37 < vensa> how am I supposed to guess what you're calling the thing you're poiinting at that starts with "n"
22 Jan 2010 06:36:55 < vensa> the "speaker" property is already inherently part of the language
22 Jan 2010 06:37:01 < vensa> i.e. mi, do
22 Jan 2010 06:37:22 < vensa> qi is simply the last person who was mi
22 Jan 2010 06:37:24 < vensa>  :)
22 Jan 2010 06:37:37 < kribacr> If anything, {mi}-like pro-sumti are what you want.
22 Jan 2010 06:37:42 < lindar> vensa: You should know what ny. is because the word was mentioned as the referent of a recent bridi at one point.
22 Jan 2010 06:38:02 < vensa> lindar: not in the "girl at the end of a room" scenario
22 Jan 2010 06:38:06 < vensa> nobody mentioned the ninmu there
22 Jan 2010 06:38:14 < lindar> Yeah, and therefore nobody would use ny. there.
22 Jan 2010 06:38:24 < vensa> well, kribacr suggested it b4
22 Jan 2010 06:38:30 < vensa> perhaps you were out cold at the time
22 Jan 2010 06:39:03 < kribacr> lindar: I think if I pointed down the hallway at a girl looking at a picture and said {.i xu ta goi ny. melbi do} that the fact that I chose {ny.} would point it towards being a {ninmu} and not a {pixra}.
22 Jan 2010 06:39:25 < vensa> kribacr: there a million other things that start with "n" in that direction
22 Jan 2010 06:39:39 < kribacr> I'm sorry, but you're being really nitpicky.
22 Jan 2010 06:39:44 < vensa> ninmu is perhaps a fairly obvious word... but sometimes there are less obvious situations
22 Jan 2010 06:39:51 < vensa> may-be
22 Jan 2010 06:39:56 < kribacr> There are answers for what you want that are only margainally more difficult than just saying {ta} or whatever.
22 Jan 2010 06:40:22 < vensa> I don't see it "marginally" when it relies highly on the length of the lujvo
22 Jan 2010 06:40:39 < kribacr> You don't have to use a lujvo to say something that has a lujvo name!
22 Jan 2010 06:40:44 < lindar> Okay, but under what circumstance are you going to be using a huge lujvo instead of the person's name or just "le prenu"?
22 Jan 2010 06:40:52 < kribacr> There should be -some- sort of differentiation between things that you can point out.
22 Jan 2010 06:41:02 < kribacr> Color, shape, size, anything.
22 Jan 2010 06:41:18 < vensa> well yeah
22 Jan 2010 06:41:24 < vensa> we resort to the "poi prenu" thing
22 Jan 2010 06:41:28 < vensa> fine, I guess you're right
22 Jan 2010 06:41:29 < lindar> That's part of thinking Lojbanically. Say the girl is wearing a red shirt and the painting is blue. "le blanu" is the girl.
22 Jan 2010 06:41:33 < vensa> I still think it's a good idea
22 Jan 2010 06:41:54 < vensa> xunre
22 Jan 2010 06:42:00 < kribacr> What you really seem to want is a KOhA3 for "not me or you bot someone else".
22 Jan 2010 06:42:00 < lindar> If they're both characterised by blue and both feature girls, le remna. etc.
22 Jan 2010 06:42:02 < lindar> errr... >_>
22 Jan 2010 06:42:03 < lindar> Whatever.
22 Jan 2010 06:42:17 < vensa> kribacr: exactly. the equivalent of he\she
22 Jan 2010 06:42:32 < kribacr> but*
22 Jan 2010 06:42:42 < kribacr> We have mi, mi'o, ma'a, mi'a, do, do'o
22 Jan 2010 06:42:43 < lindar> Do dogs count for this word? >_>
22 Jan 2010 06:42:49 < vensa> if we have do'o? why cant we have "do'o minus do"?
22 Jan 2010 06:43:06 < vensa> lindar: if they can speak lojban - yes :)P
22 Jan 2010 06:43:53 < lindar> Okay, so then only lobypli count for this word?
22 Jan 2010 06:44:50 < vensa> no.. let me rephrase
22 Jan 2010 06:44:52 < lindar> Then in light of CVhVhV or CVhVV, why not {le lobypli}? It only takes one to one and one half extra syllables and makes so much more sense. =D
22 Jan 2010 06:45:02 < vensa> if the "da" can act as a "mi" OR a "do". then it counts
22 Jan 2010 06:45:17 < lindar> ...a dog can be "do".
22 Jan 2010 06:45:24 < vensa> so yes
22 Jan 2010 06:45:44 < lindar> A plant can be "do".
22 Jan 2010 06:45:49 < lindar> I could talk to my couch.
22 Jan 2010 06:45:56 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 06:45:58 < lericson> and oftentimes you appear to do so.
22 Jan 2010 06:46:08 < lindar> Yeah, I've been meaning to see a therapist.
22 Jan 2010 06:46:26 < vensa> so maybe we should restrict it to only "mi"s
22 Jan 2010 06:47:27 < vensa> or maybe if you say: "doi couch" then you can later also refer to the couch with "qi"
22 Jan 2010 06:47:56 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 06:47:59 < vensa> do you call your couch "she"?
22 Jan 2010 06:48:12 < vensa> so, in the same sense
22 Jan 2010 06:48:28 < lericson> my jbo2en says qi is not a lojban word.
22 Jan 2010 06:48:30 < lindar> Do you delineate your universe by arbitrary means or define your linguistics by other languages with wholly separate grammar structures unlike your own?
22 Jan 2010 06:48:35 < lericson> makfa says not grammatical.
22 Jan 2010 06:48:39 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 06:48:39 < vensa> if "you" see it as a lojban-user subjectively then it's a qi
22 Jan 2010 06:48:43 < kribacr> lericson: He's just using it as a placeholder for the word he wants.
22 Jan 2010 06:49:24 < vensa> lericson: you should know by now that q is not a lojban letter :)
22 Jan 2010 06:49:25 < lericson> ah, I see.
22 Jan 2010 06:49:34 < lericson> vensa: that was what was piquing my interest.
22 Jan 2010 06:49:44 < vensa> lol
22 Jan 2010 06:50:21 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit []
22 Jan 2010 06:51:24 < lindar> Okay, is it a previous speaker, is in an animate thing, what is it that you want this to mean -exactly-?
22 Jan 2010 06:51:42 < vensa> ok. let's try to set it straight
22 Jan 2010 06:52:34 < vensa> 1. qi\qa\qu can refer to anything that the speaker describes as potentially being a "mi" or a "do"
22 Jan 2010 06:53:10 < cmacis> mi jukpa lo ckafi .ui sai
22 Jan 2010 06:53:17 < vensa> 2. qi always refers to the previous speaker (for  other uses - use qa\qu)
22 Jan 2010 06:54:17 < vensa> 3. when qa has already been used, qu refers to a mi\do earlier in the past
22 Jan 2010 06:54:30 -!- symuyn [n=joshuach@uawifi-nat-210-16.arizona.edu] has quit []
22 Jan 2010 06:54:48 < lindar> ...rather than later in the past as all other forms do?
22 Jan 2010 06:54:58 < vensa> oops my bad
22 Jan 2010 06:55:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 06:55:14 < vensa> do u say "later in the past" to refer to "an earlier time"?
22 Jan 2010 06:55:49 < lindar> I'm not sure. English sucks.
22 Jan 2010 06:55:51 < cmacis> Why does this proposal involve adding an (awful) letter to the language?
22 Jan 2010 06:55:55 < lindar> Maybe you better describe this in Lojban?
22 Jan 2010 06:55:58 < vensa> it doesnt cmacis
22 Jan 2010 06:56:00 < lindar> cmacis: It's a placehold.
22 Jan 2010 06:56:03 < cmacis> ah
22 Jan 2010 06:56:04 <@xalbo> coi
22 Jan 2010 06:56:04 < vensa> it's just a temporary placeholder
22 Jan 2010 06:56:08 <@xalbo> Wow, lots of talk.
22 Jan 2010 06:56:11 < lindar> Oh good, everybody is here.
22 Jan 2010 06:56:13 < vensa> coi xalbo
22 Jan 2010 06:56:20 < lindar> Explain to everybody how your word works.
22 Jan 2010 06:56:26 < lindar> btw: THE Q IS A PLACEHOLDER, EVERYBODY!
22 Jan 2010 06:56:39 < lericson> sup wid d q
22 Jan 2010 06:56:42 < vensa> oh my god... for the THIRD hour-long time???
22 Jan 2010 06:56:49 < vensa> lericson: I kill u
22 Jan 2010 06:56:51 < vensa> :P
22 Jan 2010 06:57:09 < vensa> can't u just scroll back
22 Jan 2010 06:57:34 <@xalbo> Put it on a web page, or something.
22 Jan 2010 06:57:36 < lindar> Yes, because if you want to change the fundamental grammar you have to convince everybody, bribe RLP (with sex more than likely as he's got plenty of money), and fly to virginia to jiggle lojbab's ganti.
22 Jan 2010 06:57:50 <@xalbo> Or at least tell me where to start.  I see thousands of lines of scrollback.
22 Jan 2010 06:58:13 < vensa> *sigh*
22 Jan 2010 06:58:15 <@Broca> lindar: sex won't work either. He's got three girlfriends.
22 Jan 2010 06:58:20 <@xalbo> Ok, I think I see it.
22 Jan 2010 06:58:30 < lindar> 1. qi\qa\qu can refer to anything that the speaker describes as potentially being a "mi" or a "do"  2. qi always refers to the previous speaker (for  other uses - use qa\qu)  3. when qa has already been used, qu refers to a mi\do earlier in the past
22 Jan 2010 06:58:39 <@Broca> And what's with the backslash?
22 Jan 2010 06:58:42 < kribacr> xalbo: Basically he wants pro-sumti for only people.
22 Jan 2010 06:58:47 <@xalbo> You're trying to recreate grammatical gender, based on animate/inanimate
22 Jan 2010 06:58:58 <@xalbo> or rather, sentient/nonsentient, I guess.
22 Jan 2010 06:59:01 < vensa> something like that
22 Jan 2010 06:59:11 < vensa> but it's non gender specific
22 Jan 2010 06:59:26 < lindar> That's why he said -grammatical- gender.
22 Jan 2010 06:59:30 -!- codrus [n=codrus@m6f0e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 06:59:31 < vensa> ok
22 Jan 2010 07:00:24 <@xalbo> "gender" in a grammatical sense.  There are languages that base gender on all sorts of things (big/small, animate/inanimate, etc).
22 Jan 2010 07:00:44 < vensa> it's kind of a mix between ri\ra\ru and ti\ta\tu
22 Jan 2010 07:01:11 < vensa> you can use it as a ri\ra\ru that specificly refers to something I describe as potential mi\do
22 Jan 2010 07:01:44 < kribacr> xalbo: I already tried explaining that people are things, and that it doesn't really solve any problems that an additional clause couldn't.
22 Jan 2010 07:01:47 < vensa> it can laso be used as a ti\ta\tu when I'm pointing in the direction where there are many "inatimate stuff" and just one "person" that I refer to
22 Jan 2010 07:01:49 <@xalbo> Is it limited to someone who has actually spoken in the current discussion, or to entities referenced as well?
22 Jan 2010 07:02:24 < vensa> I see it as basically the "he\it" differentiation
22 Jan 2010 07:02:32 < vensa> so, anyone referenced
22 Jan 2010 07:02:54 <@xalbo> That is, is {qi} always {le cusku be di'u}, or can it also be {ti poi [ka'e] cusku}?
22 Jan 2010 07:03:02 < vensa> although "qi" (like ri) might be reserved for the exact previous speaker
22 Jan 2010 07:03:32 < vensa> (excluding "mi" of course)
22 Jan 2010 07:03:46 < vensa> le cuske be di'u could be "mi" if this is my second sentence
22 Jan 2010 07:06:58 <@xalbo> I can see some utility for a set of prosumti refering to recent speakers (though not very much).  A set of demonstrative prosumti limited to potential speakers doesn't seem very useful at all.
22 Jan 2010 07:07:11 <@xalbo> And you still seem to be wanting it both ways, which sounds very awkward.
22 Jan 2010 07:07:40 < vensa> I think the definition should be the former (recent speakers)
22 Jan 2010 07:08:13 -!- symuyn [n=joshuach@uawifi-nat-210-16.arizona.edu] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 07:08:19 <@xalbo> Then all the stuff about the he/it differentiation is unnecessary.
22 Jan 2010 07:08:20 < vensa> but, through implication, you could assume a "qu" to be refering to someone who may have spoken so far ago that you didn't hear it and I am just mentioning it
22 Jan 2010 07:08:25 < vensa> (like in a story)
22 Jan 2010 07:09:34 < vensa> "my mother told me to go to the store"... yada yada "qa sounded very angry"
22 Jan 2010 07:10:59 < kribacr> Letterals ftw.
22 Jan 2010 07:11:00 <@xalbo> Now you're bringing in a *third* meaning, potential speakers *mentioned* in dialog.
22 Jan 2010 07:11:33 <@xalbo> That's distinct from demonstratives ("him over there") and from people present and speaking.
22 Jan 2010 07:11:34 < vensa> "second meaning". forget the "potential speakers" thing
22 Jan 2010 07:11:55 < vensa> I don't know exaclty how it should be defined
22 Jan 2010 07:12:12 < vensa> I just think we should start from "previous speaker" and maybe work up from there
22 Jan 2010 07:12:42 <@xalbo> Obviously so, since you're bouncing among all sorts of different meanings.  I still don't see what motivates this in the first place.
22 Jan 2010 07:13:22 < vensa> A. not wanting to use letterals (sometimes there can be severl things starting with the same letter)
22 Jan 2010 07:13:38 < vensa> B. not wanting to use "ko'a" because it needs to be assigned ahead of trime
22 Jan 2010 07:13:59 -!- symuyn [n=joshuach@uawifi-nat-210-16.arizona.edu] has quit []
22 Jan 2010 07:14:01 < vensa> C. not wanting to refer to ppl by their names becuz the names can sometimes be extremely long
22 Jan 2010 07:14:47 < vensa> D. not wanting to refer to ppl by their selbri (i.e. ninmu \ barda nanmu) because sometimes the descriptions could be quite complicated and long
22 Jan 2010 07:15:04 < lindar> The worst-case scenario when he's filled with a room full of twins all standing equidistant in a circle around him all wearing the same colour and he doesn't want to go up and poke one, but they're too far away and packed too neatly to be pointed.
22 Jan 2010 07:15:19 < vensa> lmao!!
22 Jan 2010 07:15:20 <@Broca> X-D
22 Jan 2010 07:15:30 < lindar> That's pretty much what you want.
22 Jan 2010 07:15:51 -!- cmacis [n=james@cpc2-brad7-0-0-cust1137.barn.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lojban ["Leaving"]
22 Jan 2010 07:16:00 -!- cmacis [n=james@cpc2-brad7-0-0-cust1137.barn.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 07:16:04 < vensa> E. being sure that a "ra" is refering to what I thinki it is refering to
22 Jan 2010 07:16:13 < vensa> (another layer of disambiguity)
22 Jan 2010 07:16:23 <@xalbo> Yeah, but he's still screwed if they've been speaking in unison.
22 Jan 2010 07:16:26 < vensa> some of these things you can solve with "poi" and the like
22 Jan 2010 07:16:30 < lindar> You want a neat two-letter cmavo for exactly the meaning you want and you don't want to have to say "le blanu prenu" or ".i ti poi prenu" if there's really THAT LITTLE context in -whatever- you're trying to say.
22 Jan 2010 07:16:43 < vensa> but I still think that it could help in many situations
22 Jan 2010 07:17:02 -!- gunkamanti__ [n=sarefo@213.83.32.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22 Jan 2010 07:17:30 < lindar> ...and apparently "lo go'i" or "lo se go'i" is too much to remember, because how can you remember what sumti place his mother was in two bridi back?
22 Jan 2010 07:17:55 < vensa> it's not nice to make fun of my memory problem :)
22 Jan 2010 07:18:01 < lindar> >_> Honestly, it's not that hard. You can differentiate between "My mother ran to the store." and "The store ran to my mother." right?
22 Jan 2010 07:18:09 < vensa> look - obviously we don't NEED the qi\qa\qu thing
22 Jan 2010 07:18:14 < vensa> I'm just saying it could be nice
22 Jan 2010 07:18:35 < vensa> but, we also don't NEED "vi\va\vu" so?
22 Jan 2010 07:18:42 < lindar> I did this exact same thing months ago, and now I can't even remember what word it was that I wanted to ad.
22 Jan 2010 07:18:50 < vensa> I can think of many times when it would come in handy - thats all
22 Jan 2010 07:18:52 < lindar> ..and yes we do need vi/va/vu, because it's a spatial tense.
22 Jan 2010 07:19:04 < lindar> le vi ninmu ku dansu
22 Jan 2010 07:19:17 < vensa> you could use a modal of zvati
22 Jan 2010 07:19:38 < lindar> Please, demonstrate that for me.
22 Jan 2010 07:19:58 < vensa> le ninmu ku dansu fi'o se zvati fe'u le mi se zvati
22 Jan 2010 07:20:20 <@xalbo> That's {le ninmu ku vi dansu}
22 Jan 2010 07:20:30 < vensa> oh sorry
22 Jan 2010 07:20:33 < vensa> I misread
22 Jan 2010 07:20:33 <@xalbo> (actually, that's {le ninmu ku bu'u dansu})
22 Jan 2010 07:20:47 < vensa> not necessarily
22 Jan 2010 07:20:59 < vensa> it doesnt have to imply exact location
22 Jan 2010 07:21:08 < vensa> since the location is opnly weakly associated with me
22 Jan 2010 07:21:38 < vensa> anyway.. it CAN be done
22 Jan 2010 07:21:45 < vensa> obviously
22 Jan 2010 07:21:52 < vensa> so can ri'u and stuff
22 Jan 2010 07:22:10 < vensa> and nobody has ever used them
22 Jan 2010 07:22:13 < vensa> :P
22 Jan 2010 07:22:38 < kribacr> Wow!
22 Jan 2010 07:22:46 < kribacr> I remembered that {ri'u} is "to the right of" :O
22 Jan 2010 07:24:24 < kribacr> The reason FAhA don't get used much is similar to why tV don't get used much. We're on IRC.
22 Jan 2010 07:26:19 -!- TheM_ is now known as TheM
22 Jan 2010 07:27:21 <@xalbo> I'm not saying that your proposal is completely without merit.  I'm just saying that it is 1) incompletely thought out (you've given multiple inconsistent definitions, and motivation examples inconsistent with *any* of them), 2) not hard at all to work around without, and 3) not particularly worthy of precious cmavo space.
22 Jan 2010 07:27:43 < vensa> "experimental cmavo space"
22 Jan 2010 07:27:48 < vensa> is all i'm asking for
22 Jan 2010 07:29:01 <@Broca> cmavo in space...ace...ace...
22 Jan 2010 07:31:39 < lindar> 1. Hardline define it to the point where a computer would understand what you meant.
22 Jan 2010 07:31:48 < lindar> 2. Pick something from experimental cmavo space to cover it.
22 Jan 2010 07:32:02 <@xalbo> I guess {di'ui} for {le cusku be di'u} could work, although as you said, that could still be the current speaker.
22 Jan 2010 07:32:05 < lindar> 3. Demonstrate and explain why this is better than how we normally do it.
22 Jan 2010 07:32:31 < lindar> My thought was do'oi, but that doesn't work for the rest of the set.
22 Jan 2010 07:33:48 <@xalbo> {di'u}, {de'u}, {da'u}, and even {di'e}, {de'e}, {da'e} could all have a -i added to the end and end up in experimental cmavo space.
22 Jan 2010 07:34:03 <@xalbo> (of course, those latter once get really wacky)
22 Jan 2010 07:34:05 < lindar> do'ui/do'ua/do'uu - Valid?
22 Jan 2010 07:34:40 <@xalbo> I suspect so.
22 Jan 2010 07:35:00 <@xalbo> .i di'ei se catra mi
22 Jan 2010 07:35:07 <@xalbo> I'll kill the next person who speaks.
22 Jan 2010 07:35:09 < kribacr> do'uu really?
22 Jan 2010 07:38:08 < vensa> xalbo: good one :)
22 Jan 2010 07:38:32 <@xalbo> What you'll find if you stick around, is that there are a lot of people who start to learn lojban, learn about 20%, then decide that it needs to be changed.  We've seen a lot of them come and go, so our patience with newcomers wanting to reform the language is relatively low.
22 Jan 2010 07:39:10 < vensa> fine I think I need to "experiment" a bit more with it to understand what I'm really after... so for the next few days don't kill me if I say qa
22 Jan 2010 07:39:28 < lindar> I will.
22 Jan 2010 07:39:36 < lindar> Pick something from experimental cmavo space.
22 Jan 2010 07:39:37 < vensa> xalbo: I understand. but I also think that sometimes (not often) newcomers may have a certain perspective that veterans lack
22 Jan 2010 07:40:11 < lindar> malgli? No, we have plenty of that still.
22 Jan 2010 07:40:18 < vensa> :)
22 Jan 2010 07:40:26 <@xalbo> We won't kill you, but we'll probably look at you funny and try to rephrase it using many of the existing fine tools lojban offers.
22 Jan 2010 07:40:37 < vensa> cool. I'd love that
22 Jan 2010 07:41:14 <@xalbo> In general, I just assign lerfu the first or second time something comes up in conversation.
22 Jan 2010 07:41:23 < lindar> Okay. Pick something from cmavo space. Part of testing it out is adjusting to the length instead of inventing a new phoneme to use temporarily.
22 Jan 2010 07:41:41 <@xalbo> The first time if I expect it to again, the second if I didn't the first time (by the second time, it's really likely to happen again).
22 Jan 2010 07:41:43 < vensa> ok lindar. what was the best option?
22 Jan 2010 07:42:09 < lindar> Not using it at all.
22 Jan 2010 07:42:18 < vensa> ha    ha    ha
22 Jan 2010 07:42:36 < lindar> However, you insist on using it, so my recommendation was do'ui/do'ua/do'uu.
22 Jan 2010 07:42:42 < vensa> xalbo: the problem is that I might want to use right from the first sentence, kinda like poi
22 Jan 2010 07:43:02 < vensa> ok
22 Jan 2010 07:43:20 <@xalbo> Example?
22 Jan 2010 07:43:32 < vensa> mi tugni do'ui
22 Jan 2010 07:43:49 < vensa> => I agree with lindar
22 Jan 2010 07:43:49 <@xalbo> {.ie}
22 Jan 2010 07:44:54 < vensa> (note: that this is diff from "mi tugni do" becuz that would be addressing him. here I'm not giving him that satisfaction :))
22 Jan 2010 07:45:22 < lindar> Dandy.
22 Jan 2010 07:45:52 < vensa> the colloquial translation would be "i agree with him"
22 Jan 2010 07:46:09 < vensa> -in this case-[
22 Jan 2010 07:46:13 <@xalbo> I would just use {.i mi tugni} (or, as I said, {.ie}).  Even shorter, and barely less precise.
22 Jan 2010 07:46:41 < vensa> it's too less precise for my liking
22 Jan 2010 07:46:46 < vensa> but ok :)
22 Jan 2010 07:46:52 < lindar> -___-
22 Jan 2010 07:47:04 < lindar> How old are you, vensa?
22 Jan 2010 07:47:07 < vensa> caryying on
22 Jan 2010 07:47:12 < vensa> older than you
22 Jan 2010 07:47:23 <@xalbo> You're still not claiming what you agree about, of course.
22 Jan 2010 07:47:36 < vensa> true
22 Jan 2010 07:47:38 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 07:47:41 < vensa> for that I would just use di'u
22 Jan 2010 07:47:47 < lindar> Older than me, eh?
22 Jan 2010 07:47:48 < vensa> or some version
22 Jan 2010 07:47:56 < lindar> That doesn't suit me. =D
22 Jan 2010 07:48:42 < lindar> How old? *prod prod*
22 Jan 2010 07:48:47 < kribacr> Of course the corrolary to the "newcomers always want to change things" thing is that there could be legit issues that crop up that -could- need changes.
22 Jan 2010 07:49:06 < vensa> lindar: first tell me "how long do u usually sleep" :P
22 Jan 2010 07:49:06 < kribacr> And it's much more polite to at least have the debate instead of saying "Shut the fuck up, we've heard all of this before."
22 Jan 2010 07:49:24 < vensa> thank you kribacr
22 Jan 2010 07:49:25 < kribacr> Don't worry, I tried to change everything when I first started, and so did lindar. lindar was really fiesty about it, too.
22 Jan 2010 07:49:30 < lindar> vensa: between two and fifteen hours a night.
22 Jan 2010 07:49:51 < kribacr> So when we disagree it's not because we're old, stodgy, resistant to change.
22 Jan 2010 07:49:52 < vensa> thanks :) I'm between 22 and 52 years old
22 Jan 2010 07:49:57 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 07:50:08 < vensa> jk
22 Jan 2010 07:50:10 < donri> I'm 12+ years old
22 Jan 2010 07:50:11 < codrus> fiesty is a generous term for it
22 Jan 2010 07:50:28 < lindar> Shush up codrus, your jbo sucks.
22 Jan 2010 07:50:29 < vensa> wow, so many ppl awake
22 Jan 2010 07:50:32  * lindar throws a rock.
22 Jan 2010 07:50:41  * kribacr renro lo finpe
22 Jan 2010 07:50:43 < codrus> oi
22 Jan 2010 07:50:55 < vensa> mi ca co'a citka .i de'a jundi
22 Jan 2010 07:51:00  * xalbo se zdani lo blaci
22 Jan 2010 07:51:16 < kribacr> .u'i
22 Jan 2010 07:51:20  * lindar citka lo se renro noi finpe
22 Jan 2010 07:51:29  * cmacis kavbu lo finpe
22 Jan 2010 07:51:46 < vensa> don't you mean "le"?
22 Jan 2010 07:52:09 < vensa> or are you catching a completely diff fish?
22 Jan 2010 07:52:10 < lindar> How many thrown fish do you see in this context?
22 Jan 2010 07:52:18 < vensa> too many
22 Jan 2010 07:52:30 < vensa> if he says lo it's a new fish
22 Jan 2010 07:52:40 < vensa> potentially unheard of yet
22 Jan 2010 07:52:46 < kribacr> What?
22 Jan 2010 07:53:00 < vensa> nm
22 Jan 2010 07:53:02 < lindar> Since when?
22 Jan 2010 07:53:07 < vensa> I gotta go citka
22 Jan 2010 07:53:12 < vensa> we'll argue about this later
22 Jan 2010 07:53:18 < vensa> enjoy the fish throwing! :)
22 Jan 2010 07:53:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit []
22 Jan 2010 07:53:29 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 07:54:24 < kribacr> {le} probably would have been better, but {lo} is hardly wrong.
22 Jan 2010 07:54:33 <@xalbo> It *could* be a new fish.  But there's no implication that it actually *is*.
22 Jan 2010 07:55:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 07:55:48  * xalbo citka le se renro rokci vau .oi ro'o
22 Jan 2010 07:56:21 < kribacr> .u'i
22 Jan 2010 07:56:25 < djanatyn_> .u'i
22 Jan 2010 07:56:55 < kribacr> coi jai pilno fonxa
22 Jan 2010 07:57:01 < kribacr> pi'o even
22 Jan 2010 07:57:03 < kribacr> i'm an idiot
22 Jan 2010 07:57:11 -!- stupid2 [n=Arrgh@91-65-140-21-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit []
22 Jan 2010 07:57:49 < kribacr> I'm just going to start responding to all of vensa's questions / arguments with {ga'oi}.
22 Jan 2010 07:58:58 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 07:59:22  * xalbo de'a lo cacra be li fi'u ji'i re ku jundi
22 Jan 2010 07:59:44  * lindar invents a sumti that means "That's what she said." with that annoying sexual connotation attached to it.
22 Jan 2010 08:01:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit []
22 Jan 2010 08:01:51 < kribacr> lindar: Are you familiar with {ga'oi}?
22 Jan 2010 08:02:56 < lindar> Not one bit.
22 Jan 2010 08:03:00 < lindar> It isn't in jbovlaste either.
22 Jan 2010 08:03:39 < kribacr> It won't be, it's kinda a joke one that xalbo and I made up.
22 Jan 2010 08:03:46 < lindar> Oh?
22 Jan 2010 08:03:49 < kribacr> It means "I think your idea is stupid, but I provide no meaningful counterargument."
22 Jan 2010 08:03:57 < kribacr> a.k.a. the Republican rebuttal.
22 Jan 2010 08:04:02 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 08:04:22 < lindar> That's an awesome word.
22 Jan 2010 08:05:16 < kribacr> I forget what we were talking about when we coined it...
22 Jan 2010 08:05:35 < mathw> That is a superb word
22 Jan 2010 08:05:40 < mathw> Everyone on the internet needs to know that
22 Jan 2010 08:05:57 < lindar> I think it's just slightly cooler than {bua'a'a}.
22 Jan 2010 08:06:12 < mathw> what's that
22 Jan 2010 08:06:42 < lindar> It's from selma'o UI. It means "Before I kill you, I shall tell you my master plan."
22 Jan 2010 08:07:03 < mathw> aaah
22 Jan 2010 08:07:04 < lindar> .i .ai mi bazi catra do vau bua'a'a
22 Jan 2010 08:07:06 < mathw> a soundalike
22 Jan 2010 08:07:47 < kribacr> IIRC, we derived {ga'oi} from {ga'i}.
22 Jan 2010 08:09:41 < mathw> is lesson {lo nu cilre} or {lo nu se ctuca} or something else
22 Jan 2010 08:10:52 < lindar> Probably lo nu se ctuca... I don't know, though. I'd understand what you meant if you said that.
22 Jan 2010 08:11:00 -!- aluink [n=aluink@c-67-167-174-234.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 08:11:08 < lindar> It's an event of somebody being taught.
22 Jan 2010 08:11:40 < mathw> I initially thought to use {cilre} but {ctuca} seems better, as it means there's a teacher
22 Jan 2010 08:11:57 < mathw> {lo nu cilre} could be me sitting at home reading the CLL
22 Jan 2010 08:12:20 < kribacr> {ctuca} is fine or {se ctuca} if you want to imply you're being taught.
22 Jan 2010 08:12:25 < Hussell> So {ga'oi} is like {ienaile'oju'a}?
22 Jan 2010 08:12:44 < mathw> Excellent
22 Jan 2010 08:13:04 < mathw> mi klama lo nu sanga se ctuca
22 Jan 2010 08:13:12 < mathw> although
22 Jan 2010 08:13:18 < mathw> there's a better way to say that I'm now thinking
22 Jan 2010 08:13:23 < mathw> because there's a place for what's being taught
22 Jan 2010 08:13:26 < mathw> rather than being taught in song
22 Jan 2010 08:13:30 < mathw> hmm wouldn't that be cool
22 Jan 2010 08:13:32 < mathw> chemistry in song!
22 Jan 2010 08:13:56 < lindar> Taught fi lo li'i sanga
22 Jan 2010 08:15:00 < mathw> well I don't know how to properly fill the place of {ctuca} for what's being taught, as I don't know how to construct something about the process of singing or the techniques of singing
22 Jan 2010 08:15:11 < mathw> but I can't stay and find out, because I'll be late for the aforementioned lesson
22 Jan 2010 08:15:14 < mathw> co'o
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22 Jan 2010 08:22:30 < codrus> coi arlas .i pei
22 Jan 2010 08:23:20 < lindar> Noodles.
22 Jan 2010 08:26:57 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit ["Leaving."]
22 Jan 2010 08:27:21 < lindar> .i mi klama lo nu se ctuca fo lo tadji be lo nu sanga
22 Jan 2010 08:27:28 < lindar> I'm sure there's a much easier way to say that.
22 Jan 2010 08:28:09 < lindar> .i mi klama lo nu sanga selctu
22 Jan 2010 08:28:12 < lindar> bam!
22 Jan 2010 08:28:15 < lindar> I'm awesome.
22 Jan 2010 08:29:13 < codrus> u'esai
22 Jan 2010 08:30:09 < codrus> mi co'a klama lo briju .i lo pluka ro ko li'i jimdei
22 Jan 2010 08:30:15 -!- codrus [n=codrus@m6f0e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit ["leaving"]
22 Jan 2010 08:31:04 < cmacis> coi rodo mi xruti
22 Jan 2010 08:31:07 < cmacis> and I have meds!
22 Jan 2010 08:32:07 < lindar> joy?
22 Jan 2010 08:32:23 < cmacis> Yeah. They're good meds and I'd run out
22 Jan 2010 08:35:04 < lindar> Unambiguous?
22 Jan 2010 08:35:07 < lindar> UNAMBIGUOUS?
22 Jan 2010 08:36:01 < lindar> I'M NOT EVEN SURE WHAT THAT MEANS, BUT YOU BET I'M GOING TO GIVE IT SOME WILD INTERPRETATION AND FORM A NEGATIVE OPINION ABOUT IT EVEN THOUGHT I'VE NEVER EVEN SEEN OR HEARD IT SPOKEN.
22 Jan 2010 08:36:33 < lindar> We'll be up to a million speakers and there's still going to be some jackass doing that on Twitter.
22 Jan 2010 08:37:12 < lindar> "LOL I JUST HEARD ABOUT LODGE BAN. *something something* UNAMBIGUOUS *something something* *negative comment*" - Some jackass on Twitter.
22 Jan 2010 08:38:01 < kribacr> What the fuck are you talking about?
22 Jan 2010 08:40:12 < lindar> Haven't you noticed that magically somebody will say something ignorant about Lojban no matter what time of day, week, month, or year it is?
22 Jan 2010 08:41:20 < lindar> There was one idiot that said something like, "Well I like being ambiguous in the English language! It allows me to be poetic!" and then proceeded to argue with us about whether or not Lojban was GRAMMATICALLY or SYNTACTICALLY unambiguous.
22 Jan 2010 08:41:43 < kribacr> Aye.
22 Jan 2010 08:41:50 < lindar> Just now some idiot said "A constructed human language based on logic. The concept seems interesting. Nevertheless, I remain sceptical."
22 Jan 2010 08:41:57 < djanatyn_> LINDAR!
22 Jan 2010 08:42:02 < djanatyn_> YOU NEED TO MUMBLE!
22 Jan 2010 08:42:11 < djanatyn_> THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING IDIOTS! DO YOU WANT TO TALK TO THEM? :)
22 Jan 2010 08:42:13 < lindar> WTF sceptical? I'm not trying to sell you a fucking car.
22 Jan 2010 08:42:21 < djanatyn_> Actually, some of them are interested in lojban. You should teach them.
22 Jan 2010 08:42:38 < lindar> I can't. My roommate is still sleeping. -0800GMT, remember?
22 Jan 2010 08:42:56 < djanatyn_> Ah. Forgot.
22 Jan 2010 08:43:05 < djanatyn_> Well...want to...umm...listen? :)
22 Jan 2010 08:43:11 < cmacis> I'll try setting up mumble
22 Jan 2010 08:43:15 < lindar> No, I don't.
22 Jan 2010 08:43:17  * djanatyn_ doesn't mean to bother you, but this classroom is...boring.
22 Jan 2010 08:43:19 < djanatyn_> No, not to them.
22 Jan 2010 08:43:24 < djanatyn_> They're gone.
22 Jan 2010 08:43:28 < lindar> No, I don't.
22 Jan 2010 08:43:30 < djanatyn_> :) I had *nothing* to do with it.
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22 Jan 2010 08:46:03 < cmacis> Nah, mumble is getting crazy echo
22 Jan 2010 08:46:09 < djanatyn_> Hmm.
22 Jan 2010 08:47:07 < lindar> I'm just so wildly annoyed with people acting like it's my/our job to convince/sell them Lojban, like they're some great asset to our community. If you're interested, then fucking come in here and learn it. If you want to be a dick and shrug it off based on a line you read from a google review about the wiki article, then you're probably too stupid to learn Lojban anyway and we'd just make fun of you.
22 Jan 2010 08:48:04 < djanatyn_> mi na tirna do
22 Jan 2010 08:48:26 < lindar> So X jackass from Twitter wants convincing, but Sonja Kisa noi finti la .tokiponas. will just waltz in and demand that we teach her Lojban? >_>
22 Jan 2010 08:48:53 < cmacis> so much background noise djanatyn
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22 Jan 2010 08:49:07  * lindar RAEG.
22 Jan 2010 08:49:17 < djanatyn_> aww.
22 Jan 2010 08:49:20 < Twey> Wait, why are you raging against Sonja now?  :þ
22 Jan 2010 08:49:27 < Twey> I thought I fixed that.
22 Jan 2010 08:49:34 < lindar> I'm not. She's really cool. >_<
22 Jan 2010 08:49:47 < djanatyn_> lindar: I'm sorry. I'm not trying to get you to teach me lojban >_<
22 Jan 2010 08:49:47 < lindar> I wish I could invite her out to coffee.
22 Jan 2010 08:49:51 < Twey> Oh good.  :þ
22 Jan 2010 08:50:00 < Twey> Maybe you can some day.  She travels a lot.
22 Jan 2010 08:50:01 < lindar> djan: I didn't say that. >_>
22 Jan 2010 08:50:04 < djanatyn_> I wish I could go to coffee with anyone here. :(
22 Jan 2010 08:50:06 < djanatyn_> Umm.
22 Jan 2010 08:50:11  * djanatyn_ must have gotten the wrong impression.
22 Jan 2010 08:50:19 < djanatyn_> cmacis quite because there was so much background noise :(
22 Jan 2010 08:50:26 < lindar> "So X jackass from Twitter..."
22 Jan 2010 08:50:57 < cmacis> mi djica lonu le melbi ninmu cu pinxe lo ckafi
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22 Jan 2010 08:51:14 < djanatyn_> .ua .ie
22 Jan 2010 08:51:25 -!- stupid2 [n=stupid2@pD9EAADB2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 08:51:27 < djanatyn_> ...you should invite her to a date!
22 Jan 2010 08:51:33  * djanatyn_ has no idea what he is saying. DO NOT LISTEN!
22 Jan 2010 08:51:40 < djanatyn_> Although I have had *one* successful date.
22 Jan 2010 08:51:43 < djanatyn_> It was at Panera <3
22 Jan 2010 08:51:45 < lindar> I'm upset because 90% of people either form a negative opinion of Lojban after reading some two sentence article about it, or they need 'convincing' to learn the language, like I have to make a sales pitch to get them to learn Lojban as if I have to earn their presence, which is such an asset to the Lojban community.
22 Jan 2010 08:51:52 < cmacis> fear of rejection. Every rejection I've had has hurt. A lot
22 Jan 2010 08:52:04 < djanatyn_> :( We're here for you.
22 Jan 2010 08:52:23  * djanatyn_ has been rejected...95% of the time?
22 Jan 2010 08:52:28  * lindar thought cmacis had kids.
22 Jan 2010 08:52:31 < djanatyn_> I've had one "girlfriend".
22 Jan 2010 08:52:38 < djanatyn_> ...
22 Jan 2010 08:52:54 < djanatyn_> She turned bisexual after dating me. Is that bad?
22 Jan 2010 08:52:54 < cmacis> you've asked 20 girls out? Wow
22 Jan 2010 08:52:56 < lindar> Who was it that had kids? Was it Mark?
22 Jan 2010 08:53:01  * djanatyn_ has NOT ASKED 20 GIRLS OUT
22 Jan 2010 08:53:03 < djanatyn_> Mark has kids.
22 Jan 2010 08:53:04 < djanatyn_> Esther!
22 Jan 2010 08:53:08 < djanatyn_> And...ummm...
22 Jan 2010 08:53:19 < cmacis> for 95% you need to have asked 20 out, and 1 has said yes
22 Jan 2010 08:53:20 < djanatyn_> clsn: what are your kid's names?
22 Jan 2010 08:53:23 < lindar> djan: No, turning bisexual means they're in high school and they don't know what that actually means.
22 Jan 2010 08:53:25 < djanatyn_> Okay, maybe not 95%.
22 Jan 2010 08:53:36 < djanatyn_> they don't? What do you mean?
22 Jan 2010 08:53:39  * djanatyn_ is confused.
22 Jan 2010 08:53:41 < djanatyn_> T_T
22 Jan 2010 08:53:44 < cmacis> My ex came out as a lesbian after dumping me :(
22 Jan 2010 08:54:02 < djanatyn_> I mean. She began to go out with this girl named Ciara...and they still are.
22 Jan 2010 08:54:08 < djanatyn_> She's happy, so yay! :D
22 Jan 2010 08:54:25 < djanatyn_> I would rather have someone break up with me if it was making them unhappy, or if they would be happier with someone else.
22 Jan 2010 08:54:30 < lindar> Girls in high school, when they claim they are bi, mostly just say that to rouse the ire of other boys. They may not be disinclined to kiss another girl, but they wouldn't actually -have sex- with a female. It's just popular to be a bisexual female.
22 Jan 2010 08:54:40 < djanatyn_> Umm. She has.
22 Jan 2010 08:54:44 < djanatyn_> She showed me...pictures.
22 Jan 2010 08:54:49 < lindar> ...
22 Jan 2010 08:54:49 < djanatyn_> I wasn't sure how to take that.
22 Jan 2010 08:54:53 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 08:54:58 < lindar> Can I see?
22 Jan 2010 08:55:01 < djanatyn_> We are really close friends! D:
22 Jan 2010 08:55:01 < djanatyn_> :D
22 Jan 2010 08:55:08 < djanatyn_> Nope. I deleted them.
22 Jan 2010 08:55:14 < djanatyn_> (parents like mine DO NOT LIKE SEXTING)
22 Jan 2010 08:55:32 < lindar> >______> RIGHT. CHRIS HANSEN WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED THAT, ANYWAY.
22 Jan 2010 08:55:45 < djanatyn_> heh heh heh. I remember when they gave me the "sexting talk".
22 Jan 2010 08:55:49 < djanatyn_> ...
22 Jan 2010 08:55:50 < djanatyn_> :D
22 Jan 2010 08:55:59  * djanatyn_ might be able to COME UPSTAIRS FOR LUNCH
22 Jan 2010 08:56:01 < djanatyn_> YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
22 Jan 2010 08:56:11 < djanatyn_> .uicai cai cai cai cai
22 Jan 2010 08:58:43 < lindar> Hey, watch out there.
22 Jan 2010 09:03:13 < clsn> djanatyn: Isaac and Esther.
22 Jan 2010 09:03:35 < lindar> Hey there.
22 Jan 2010 09:03:35 <@xalbo> Lots of backscroll, but {ga'oi} was inspired partly by {ga'i}, but mostly by {ganxo}.
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22 Jan 2010 09:04:18 < kribacr> Ah, that's right.
22 Jan 2010 09:11:03 < kribacr> ni'o lo melbi kujmikce ku pu tavla mi vau .ui
22 Jan 2010 09:12:12 <@xalbo> .ui dai ro'u
22 Jan 2010 09:12:31 < kribacr> .i ku'i lo tatru ku na barda .i ji'a mi pampe'o
22 Jan 2010 09:14:06 <@xalbo> je'e
22 Jan 2010 09:14:17 < lindar> xD
22 Jan 2010 09:18:40 < lindar> .oidairo'u
22 Jan 2010 09:20:04 < kribacr> .oi cai tu'a lo gunka pe mi ta'e siclu tu'a lo fanza
22 Jan 2010 09:21:26 < lindar> ...that was thoroughly confusing.
22 Jan 2010 09:21:28 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 09:21:35 < lindar> Can you stretch that out with all terminators?
22 Jan 2010 09:21:40 < kribacr> O_o
22 Jan 2010 09:21:43 < kribacr> Uh....
22 Jan 2010 09:21:58 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22 Jan 2010 09:22:10 < kribacr> .oi cai tu'a lo gunka pe mi ge'u ku lu'u cu ta'e siclu tu'a lo fanza ku lu'u vau
22 Jan 2010 09:22:52 < lindar> Yeah, I don't understand why that first {tu'a} is there.
22 Jan 2010 09:24:06 < kribacr> I don't think my coworker is explicitly a sound source. Maybe he is.
22 Jan 2010 09:24:10 < kribacr> I might be able to drop it.
22 Jan 2010 09:24:18 <@xalbo> I think he is.
22 Jan 2010 09:24:34 < kribacr> Eh, fair enough.
22 Jan 2010 09:24:36 <@xalbo> and I suggest {lo jai fanza} instead of {tu'a lo fanza}
22 Jan 2010 09:24:53 < kribacr> Yeah, that's probably better.
22 Jan 2010 09:25:14 < kribacr> Either way it's FUCKING ANNOYING and ENTIRELY OFFKEY and HE NEVER FUCKING STOPS. EVER.
22 Jan 2010 09:25:28 < lindar> Tell him to stop whistling as it's distracting you from your work.
22 Jan 2010 09:25:38 < lindar> If he doesn't, file a complaint with human resources.
22 Jan 2010 09:25:50 < lindar> Barring that, staple his dick to his desk and threaten to kill him.
22 Jan 2010 09:25:57 < kribacr> I work with this guy 8 hours a day. It's just me and him.
22 Jan 2010 09:26:24 < kribacr> He likely doesn't even realise he's doing it.
22 Jan 2010 09:26:32 < lindar> Tell him to stop, then. >_>
22 Jan 2010 09:26:43 < kribacr> That's the thing... even if I tell him, he won't realise he's doing it.
22 Jan 2010 09:26:55 < kribacr> I'm just going to start listening to music.
22 Jan 2010 09:26:57 <@xalbo> .i ku'i mi jai se curmi fai lo nu siclu fi'o ni cladu lo na dukse ti'u li so bi'o pa pa
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22 Jan 2010 09:27:41 < lindar> Do it, then.
22 Jan 2010 09:28:08 <@xalbo> .i gau mi fagri le dinju
22 Jan 2010 09:28:22 <@xalbo> le'o
22 Jan 2010 09:29:26 < lindar> ...did you just make an office space joke...
22 Jan 2010 09:29:28 < lindar> ...IN LOJBAN?
22 Jan 2010 09:29:50 <@xalbo> Why yes, I did.
22 Jan 2010 09:29:59 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 09:30:08 < lindar> >_< I want to fandub it into Lojban now.
22 Jan 2010 09:30:10 < kribacr> Bah, we quote Princess Bride in here all the time.
22 Jan 2010 09:30:16 < timonator> it?
22 Jan 2010 09:30:19 < timonator> oh, office space
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22 Jan 2010 09:30:35 < lindar> ".I NI'O DO GLETU LA .LYMBYRG."
22 Jan 2010 09:30:54 < kribacr> Stop with the caps shit, you fucking noob.
22 Jan 2010 09:31:03 < kribacr> You look like djanatyn.
22 Jan 2010 09:31:04 < lindar> That's how he said it in the film.
22 Jan 2010 09:31:06 < kribacr> :P
22 Jan 2010 09:33:13 < djanatyn_> LEARN ME LOJBAN KTHXBAI
22 Jan 2010 09:33:27 < djanatyn_> HEY!
22 Jan 2010 09:33:38 < djanatyn_> that's mean, kribacr ;)
22 Jan 2010 09:33:48  * djanatyn_ becomes more serious to impress kribacr
22 Jan 2010 09:34:09 < lindar> {jeeeeee'e .yyyyyy .iiiii mi nitcu la .ti.pi.es. poi jungau ca lo bavlamdei .iiiiiii go'i co sutra... je'exu... je'e ki'esai pendo}
22 Jan 2010 09:35:31 < lindar> {.I TA'O mi'o nitcu lo nu do klama ca lo xavdei . . . .e ji'a lo zeldei . . . ki'e co'o}
22 Jan 2010 09:37:32 < kribacr> .i le'o ga'i ko sisti lo nu tavla ku doi .danis. .i bo do na se slabu
22 Jan 2010 09:38:27 < kribacr> .i ko'a pincyvi'i do'e lo buklolgai
22 Jan 2010 09:39:04 < lindar> o_O
22 Jan 2010 09:39:59 < lindar> wtf, is this a line from the film I don't remember?
22 Jan 2010 09:40:39 < kribacr> .i mi vecnu lo nu molgle kei do lo rupnu be li ki'o
22 Jan 2010 09:41:30 < lindar> o_O
22 Jan 2010 09:42:09 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 09:42:32 < lindar> I need to get going. Have to get to guitar centre to buy new bass strings.
22 Jan 2010 09:43:04 < kribacr> The Big Lebowski.
22 Jan 2010 09:43:44 < timonator> lebowsky is the great
22 Jan 2010 09:45:02 <@xalbo> .i mi'e nai .lebauskis.
22 Jan 2010 09:45:14 <@xalbo> I just can't think of how to translate "The Dude" into lojban.
22 Jan 2010 09:45:40 < timonator> mi'e dud
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22 Jan 2010 09:46:49 <@xalbo> Naw, this is definitely a case for a selbri name, if I've ever seen one.
22 Jan 2010 09:48:46 < timonator> the knave
22 Jan 2010 09:48:59 <@xalbo> The Knave abideth.
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22 Jan 2010 11:45:21 < vensa> coi rodo .i mi se'ixru gi'e baze'a vi zvati
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22 Jan 2010 11:57:22 < selckiku> coi la vensa
22 Jan 2010 11:59:31 < EnglishGent> coi
22 Jan 2010 11:59:52 < vensa> coi selckiku
22 Jan 2010 11:59:58 < vensa> coi la'oi EnglishGent
22 Jan 2010 12:00:00 < selckiku> hello EnglishGent
22 Jan 2010 12:00:49 < EnglishGent> hi vensa, selckiku :)
22 Jan 2010 12:01:22  * EnglishGent is wondering - is there anything like a lojban wordnet? :)
22 Jan 2010 12:01:39 < selckiku> hmm i've only used wordnet a little
22 Jan 2010 12:01:43 < selckiku> what we've got is jbovlaste
22 Jan 2010 12:02:01 < vensa> [13:29] <lindar> By the time you muscle out {.i do'o'i bebna} I could manage {.i le zi cusku ku bebna} or just say {.i do bebna}. =\
22 Jan 2010 12:02:10 < vensa> oops
22 Jan 2010 12:02:11 < vensa> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/
22 Jan 2010 12:02:13 < selckiku> jbovlaste is by far the best lojban dictionary out there anywhere, and a lot of people have been working hard catching it up with the modern language .i'o (gratitude)
22 Jan 2010 12:03:18 < EnglishGent> ty! :)
22 Jan 2010 12:03:28 < EnglishGent> (how do I say thanks in lojban?) :)
22 Jan 2010 12:03:33 < selckiku> "ki'e"
22 Jan 2010 12:03:39 < EnglishGent> ki'e :)
22 Jan 2010 12:03:45 < vensa> je'e
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22 Jan 2010 12:04:07 < vensa> (roger that ~ you're welcome)
22 Jan 2010 12:04:37 < selckiku> "ki'e" is a COI cmavo, so it addresses someone and thanks them, so you can also say "ki'e do", thank you, or "ki'e jbocevni", thanks Lojban Gods (slang for helpful experts who answer your qusetions)
22 Jan 2010 12:04:47 < EnglishGent> what's a 'preferred word' ? (looking at the dictionary)
22 Jan 2010 12:05:12 < selckiku> jbovlaste is also a system for collaborating on editing a print dictionary that's going to come out at some point
22 Jan 2010 12:05:21 < EnglishGent> I ask becuase another thing I'd like to get hold of is a list of words by frequency of occurance - i.e. the top 1000 most frequently used words say
22 Jan 2010 12:05:27 < selckiku> so i think that's about the system to check words and make sure they're good or something
22 Jan 2010 12:05:32 < EnglishGent> (so I know which ones to learn first!) :)
22 Jan 2010 12:05:48 < selckiku> there's some frequency charts out there.. i think there might be a tiki page about it?
22 Jan 2010 12:05:52 < vensa> EnglishGent: I think you should try to learn the grammer first, then the vocabulary
22 Jan 2010 12:06:03 < vensa> the best way IMO to learn the grammer is the L4B course
22 Jan 2010 12:06:07 < selckiku> have you explored our tiki wiki at all?  at lojban.org?  that's an important resource
22 Jan 2010 12:06:10 < EnglishGent> what's that?
22 Jan 2010 12:06:19 < selckiku> everything you could ever want to know about lojban is tucked away in there...... somewhere :)
22 Jan 2010 12:06:20 < EnglishGent> (L4B)
22 Jan 2010 12:06:20 < vensa> through the course you'll already learn the most popular words
22 Jan 2010 12:06:31  * EnglishGent looking at it :)
22 Jan 2010 12:06:34 < selckiku> Lojban For Beginners
22 Jan 2010 12:06:34 < vensa> Lojban4Beginners
22 Jan 2010 12:06:36 < EnglishGent> (the wiki)
22 Jan 2010 12:06:55 < vensa> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html
22 Jan 2010 12:08:25 < selckiku> btw you're both welcome to climb my Lojban Lesson Language Ladder, the first rung is here: http://groups.google.com/group/coi-language where i'm hoping people will help me to teach the COI cmavo
22 Jan 2010 12:09:00 < selckiku> i'm thinking of making a video where i explain a little about each of the COI, i'll just have cards or something with each of them and hold them up to the camera
22 Jan 2010 12:09:33 < vensa> selckiku: seems a bit incomplete... do you have anything past "coi" or is this just the beginning?
22 Jan 2010 12:09:49 < selckiku> i'm working on it!
22 Jan 2010 12:10:16 < vensa> :) ok
22 Jan 2010 12:10:37 < selckiku> the next rung after COI is Evidentialese, learning to mark statements for how you know them
22 Jan 2010 12:10:37 < EnglishGent> ki'e :)
22 Jan 2010 12:10:42 < vensa> I think video lessons will be a good idea - many lazy ppl out there :)
22 Jan 2010 12:11:02 < selckiku> yes if only i can be nonlazy enough to make them :P
22 Jan 2010 12:11:16 < EnglishGent> that sounds like a good idea - if only becuase having audio helps you to know the pronounciation!
22 Jan 2010 12:11:18 < EnglishGent> :)
22 Jan 2010 12:11:30 < vensa> don't worry about pronounciation
22 Jan 2010 12:11:34 < selckiku> i've also been trying to imagine a video lesson on the topic "what is a sumti", but it's kind of a hard subject
22 Jan 2010 12:11:35 < vensa> the first lesson in l4b explains it
22 Jan 2010 12:11:44 < vensa> and it's pretty straightforward if you get it right the first time
22 Jan 2010 12:12:20 < vensa> although, there is also lindar's vid on pronounciation on utube
22 Jan 2010 12:12:33 < selckiku> there are a lot of examples of spoken lojban up on the web these days.. hopefully there will be a lot more soon, but it's already a total change from when i started learning.. i never heard anything in lojban at all, at first
22 Jan 2010 12:12:56 < selckiku> one of the first things i heard in lojban was the parrot sketch video
22 Jan 2010 12:13:01 < EnglishGent> oh - a link to the youtube stuff would be appreciated :)
22 Jan 2010 12:13:06 < vensa> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzG9vFOkOGU
22 Jan 2010 12:13:11 < EnglishGent> thanks :)
22 Jan 2010 12:13:17 < vensa> je'e
22 Jan 2010 12:13:30 < selckiku> i'm on youtube at http://youtube.com/selckiku .. i just have a few chatty things there so far i think
22 Jan 2010 12:13:34  * EnglishGent guesses probably the first words to learn are those for describing lojban grammar itself
22 Jan 2010 12:13:53 < vensa> yeah.. thankfully there arent many :)
22 Jan 2010 12:13:53 < selckiku> yes for instance "gismu" is important to know
22 Jan 2010 12:14:07 < selckiku> people will always be talking about "gismu" and "cmavo" and "lujvo"
22 Jan 2010 12:14:15 < vensa> but it;s best to learn them through context - i.e. in the course IMO
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22 Jan 2010 12:14:43 < vensa> be prepared to let go of any notions u have from regular language :)
22 Jan 2010 12:14:46 <@xalbo> Has anyone mentioned the wave yet?
22 Jan 2010 12:15:08 < EnglishGent> not whilst I've been here!
22 Jan 2010 12:15:35 <@xalbo> kribacr and lindar and I have been doing interactive lessons here on irc.
22 Jan 2010 12:15:36 < vensa> xalbo: is "the wave" comprehensive in coverage?
22 Jan 2010 12:15:46 <@xalbo> It is not.  But it's a good start.
22 Jan 2010 12:15:57 < vensa> k
22 Jan 2010 12:16:06 < vensa> what's the link 4 that?
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22 Jan 2010 12:16:38 -!- Huggles_sipna is now known as Hugglesworth
22 Jan 2010 12:17:18 < vensa> coi la'oi Hugglesworth .i a'o ko pluka lo cerni
22 Jan 2010 12:17:29 <@xalbo> It's a Google Wave named "Lojban Lessons".  I always have trouble figuring out how to link to it.
22 Jan 2010 12:17:39 < vensa> {se pluka}
22 Jan 2010 12:17:44 <@xalbo> It's still under development, but a very good way to get started.
22 Jan 2010 12:18:12 <@xalbo> Or if you have time when we have time, we can teach you ourselves.  We're pretty good, if I say so myself.
22 Jan 2010 12:18:16 < Hugglesworth> coi rodo .i ti na cerni
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22 Jan 2010 12:18:40 < Hugglesworth> mi klama fi lo ckule
22 Jan 2010 12:18:54 < vensa> ua
22 Jan 2010 12:19:03 < vensa> ko se pluka lonu cilre
22 Jan 2010 12:19:21 < Hugglesworth> vi'o
22 Jan 2010 12:19:27 < vensa> ui
22 Jan 2010 12:19:51 < Hugglesworth> si vi'onai
22 Jan 2010 12:20:03 < Hugglesworth> mi na nelci lo ckule
22 Jan 2010 12:20:10 < vensa> uinaidai
22 Jan 2010 12:20:21 < vensa> mo ckule
22 Jan 2010 12:20:59 < vensa> xu lo balcu'e
22 Jan 2010 12:21:17 < Hugglesworth> samselpla ckule .i go'i
22 Jan 2010 12:21:41 < vensa> ua
22 Jan 2010 12:22:16 < EnglishGent> I'd love to be taught xalbo
22 Jan 2010 12:22:26 < vensa> .iki'ubo ma do na nelci ra
22 Jan 2010 12:22:51 < EnglishGent> ideally I'd eventually like someone to listen to my attempts on voip (skype, or similar) and tell me if I'm getting it right or not :)
22 Jan 2010 12:23:08 < vensa> oops... bad gendra
22 Jan 2010 12:23:24 < vensa> englishgent: we have mumble
22 Jan 2010 12:23:43 < vensa> it's a platform\server we use for "voice"-IRC
22 Jan 2010 12:24:01 <@xalbo> We tend to do the lessons on ##ckule.  I have a bit of time right now, at least to get you started.
22 Jan 2010 12:24:25 < vensa> sa .i ki'u ma do na nelci ra
22 Jan 2010 12:24:43 < EnglishGent> just a min :)
22 Jan 2010 12:24:52 < Hugglesworth> vensa: mi nitcu lonu toltce gunka
22 Jan 2010 12:25:10 < vensa> je'e
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22 Jan 2010 12:25:34  * Melvar has a question.
22 Jan 2010 12:25:58 < vensa> mu'i ma do terbejbi'o le balcu'e
22 Jan 2010 12:26:08 <@xalbo> .i preti fi ko
22 Jan 2010 12:26:13 < vensa> yay. me likes melvars questions
22 Jan 2010 12:26:45 < vensa> ko cecla pe'a u'i
22 Jan 2010 12:27:02 < Melvar> Are deletions quotable? Is “faʼo”?
22 Jan 2010 12:27:20 < vensa> IMO everything is quotable
22 Jan 2010 12:27:42 < vensa> xalbo?
22 Jan 2010 12:28:04 < vensa> (e.g. "zo si" erases nothing)
22 Jan 2010 12:28:19 < Hugglesworth> vensa: mi nitcu lonu ko'a dunda lo pelji mi
22 Jan 2010 12:28:30 <@xalbo> The rule with magic words is that you read from left to right, each taking its own effect.
22 Jan 2010 12:28:34 < vensa> ki'a ko'a
22 Jan 2010 12:28:40 <@xalbo> So {zo si} is the quoted word  {si}.
22 Jan 2010 12:29:05 < selckiku> mi nelci zo si voi makfa
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22 Jan 2010 12:29:22 < Hugglesworth> sa mi nitcu lonu lo ckule ku dunda lo pelji mi
22 Jan 2010 12:29:31 < EnglishGent> hi Grey_Fox :)
22 Jan 2010 12:29:33 < vensa> je'e
22 Jan 2010 12:29:56  * EnglishGent introduces his friend Grey_Fox to everyone
22 Jan 2010 12:30:05 < Hugglesworth> the magical "I can get a good job" paper
22 Jan 2010 12:30:06 < EnglishGent> whom he has bullied into also learning the language :D
22 Jan 2010 12:30:09  * EnglishGent evil laugj
22 Jan 2010 12:30:11 < EnglishGent> laugh
22 Jan 2010 12:30:33 < vensa> yeah... I got that Huggles :)
22 Jan 2010 12:31:13 < vensa> uudai do na nelci le do se tadni
22 Jan 2010 12:31:45 < Hugglesworth> .ie
22 Jan 2010 12:32:03 <@xalbo> Ok, I'm starting a very introductory lesson in ##ckule in a minute, if anyone wants to join.
22 Jan 2010 12:32:16 < Hugglesworth> mi xebni lenu mi seltadni
22 Jan 2010 12:32:19 < vensa> la'acu'i do djica lonu cilre fi lo drata se tadni vau xu
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22 Jan 2010 12:33:27 < Melvar> …So I guess “zo faʼo” is “‘faʼo’”?
22 Jan 2010 12:33:35 < vensa> (I think u meant "lenu mi tadni")
22 Jan 2010 12:33:43 < vensa> melvar: no
22 Jan 2010 12:33:47 < vensa> melvar: yes
22 Jan 2010 12:34:00 < vensa> I mean, it just quotes it.
22 Jan 2010 12:34:06 < vensa> it doesn't actually say it
22 Jan 2010 12:34:16 < Hugglesworth> go'i .i mi prami lonu cilre .i mi xebni lonu cilre lo terckule
22 Jan 2010 12:34:22 < vensa> I'm assuming a computer would have to be taught not to treat "zo fa'o" as "fa'o"
22 Jan 2010 12:35:04 < vensa> je'e
22 Jan 2010 12:35:16 < vensa> do djica lonu cilre fi ma
22 Jan 2010 12:35:52 <@xalbo> {zo fa'o} is the quoted word {fa'o}.  Nothing special there: the {zo} is consumed first, and "wins".
22 Jan 2010 12:36:09 < selckiku> zo fa'o cu cinri jbovla
22 Jan 2010 12:36:14 < Melvar> Indeed, one would simply have to quote-consume before further analysis.
22 Jan 2010 12:36:24 < vensa> yep.
22 Jan 2010 12:36:32 < vensa> melvar: are u writing a computer prog for lojban?
22 Jan 2010 12:36:33 < Hugglesworth> lo skami .e lo bangu .e lo damba
22 Jan 2010 12:36:45 < Hugglesworth> err...
22 Jan 2010 12:36:49 < Hugglesworth> s/.e/joi?
22 Jan 2010 12:36:50 < Melvar> No, I just have a tendency to think that way.
22 Jan 2010 12:37:20 < vensa> joi?? would mean  you wawnt a mixture of all of them
22 Jan 2010 12:37:25 < vensa> maybe: "a"
22 Jan 2010 12:37:33 < vensa> melvar: cool
22 Jan 2010 12:37:39 < vensa> good thinking
22 Jan 2010 12:38:00 < Melvar> And I wonder why I didn’t think of trying what jbofiʼe has to say first.
22 Jan 2010 12:38:10 < Hugglesworth> I'mma stick with joi there
22 Jan 2010 12:38:18 < vensa> it's always fun to ask us ppl. we make jokes (sometimes)
22 Jan 2010 12:38:41 < vensa> ok Huggles.... (cizra)
22 Jan 2010 12:39:04 < vensa> I can imagine a subject about computers and language.... but also about combat?
22 Jan 2010 12:39:27 < Hugglesworth> I can practice language while I practice combat
22 Jan 2010 12:39:46 < vensa> i suppose... hey.. it's your desire anyway - doesnt have to exist :)
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22 Jan 2010 12:40:14 < vensa> ma do ca te cilre
22 Jan 2010 12:40:23 < Melvar> Turns out “faʼo” breaks “lu” but not “loʼu” or “zo”.
22 Jan 2010 12:41:03 < vensa> hmm... interesting....
22 Jan 2010 12:41:08 < Hugglesworth> lo ponju
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22 Jan 2010 12:41:11 < Hugglesworth> si ponjo
22 Jan 2010 12:41:29 < vensa> uasai
22 Jan 2010 12:42:08 < Hugglesworth> mi bazi cilre fi la'oi haskell
22 Jan 2010 12:42:14 -!- lindar [n=lindarth@rrcs-173-196-20-139.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 12:42:21 < lindar> Me.
22 Jan 2010 12:42:22 < vensa> .ua
22 Jan 2010 12:42:28 < Hugglesworth> YOU!
22 Jan 2010 12:42:52 < kribacr> Melvar: That's because {zo} is a magic word, and {lo'u} I think will assume everything is nonsensical non-parsed error text until it hits {le'u}. {lu} will not, however.
22 Jan 2010 12:42:58 < vensa> what kind of degree is this? in japanese computers?
22 Jan 2010 12:43:06 < Melvar> And then I wanted to ask why it is that it seems to be the usual method of quoting Lojban here by using braces.
22 Jan 2010 12:43:35 < vensa> kribacr: but if I'm quoting what someone else said (full sentence) and that someone happened to say "fa'o"?
22 Jan 2010 12:43:36 < kribacr> It's just a convention. Something different from quotation marks.
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22 Jan 2010 12:43:46 < kribacr> vensa; Use {lo'u}.
22 Jan 2010 12:43:54 < kribacr> {lo'u} *can be* error text. It doesn't *have to be*.
22 Jan 2010 12:43:59 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 12:44:10 < kribacr> In fact, it's generally a lot safer to quote with {lo'u} / {le'u}.
22 Jan 2010 12:44:16 < kribacr> Certainly nothing wrong with it.
22 Jan 2010 12:44:22 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 12:44:26 < vensa> isn't that redundant then?
22 Jan 2010 12:44:37 < vensa> why have "lu" at all?
22 Jan 2010 12:44:48 < Hugglesworth> compsci degree, needed a "humanity" so I took jap
22 Jan 2010 12:44:56 < lindar> It's meeeeeeeeee!
22 Jan 2010 12:44:57 < vensa> ohhhh :)
22 Jan 2010 12:45:07 < Hugglesworth> taking linguistics to fill one of my social science slots
22 Jan 2010 12:45:07 < vensa> got me confused for a sec Huggles
22 Jan 2010 12:45:21  * Hugglesworth ignores lindar some more
22 Jan 2010 12:45:27  * vensa also
22 Jan 2010 12:45:32 < kribacr> It'd be the preferred thing to do to quote grammatical lojban with {lu} {li'u}. But what I'm saying is that if you're unsure, you can use {lo'u} to be safe.
22 Jan 2010 12:45:41 < vensa> (I like when he begs)
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22 Jan 2010 12:46:07 < Melvar> Why paunai do we have both "" and '' for quoting in some programming languages?
22 Jan 2010 12:46:28 < vensa> melvar: so you can quote a quote
22 Jan 2010 12:46:36 < Melvar> Weak and strong quotes, respectively.
22 Jan 2010 12:46:39 < kribacr> Should be also noted that there are technically some rare cases where one could elide {li'u}, though I think it's much nicer to the listener to never do so.
22 Jan 2010 12:46:46 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 12:46:48 < selckiku> Melvar: we quote with braces because it's confusing to say that "mi" means "me" and "do" means "you", it's clearer to say that {mi} means "me" and {do} means "you"
22 Jan 2010 12:47:13 < Melvar> I see. But it’s very inconvenient to me.
22 Jan 2010 12:47:26 < vensa> "me" or (mi)? jk
22 Jan 2010 12:47:29 < selckiku> you don't have to follow that convention,, i often ignore it :)
22 Jan 2010 12:48:06 < Melvar> “{” is <altgr><7>, “}” is <altgr><0>.
22 Jan 2010 12:48:35 < vensa> melvar: I don't think programming-language quotation marks are strong and weak. sometimes they are interchangeable. you just need two sets because the terminator is the same as the starter.
22 Jan 2010 12:49:06 < vensa> melvar: you don't have "shift+[" on your keyboard?
22 Jan 2010 12:49:38 < vensa> kribacr: can I nest lo'u le'u quotes inside themselves?
22 Jan 2010 12:49:54 < kribacr> That I'm not certain about.
22 Jan 2010 12:49:54 < Melvar> “[” is <altgr><8> and “]” is <altgr><9>.
22 Jan 2010 12:50:03 < kribacr> I'm not sure if {lo'u} will skip over another internal {lo'u}.
22 Jan 2010 12:50:05 < vensa> melvar: Huh?
22 Jan 2010 12:50:12 < vensa> melvar: strange keyboard
22 Jan 2010 12:50:26 < Melvar> Shifting them yields “™” and “±”.
22 Jan 2010 12:50:30 < vensa> kribacr: how can you not be sure? :) xalbo?
22 Jan 2010 12:50:37 < Dessous> not strange if you live in europe
22 Jan 2010 12:50:50 < vensa> melvar: hit your keyboard with a sledge hammer and throw it in the ocean
22 Jan 2010 12:50:58 <@xalbo> I was ignoring this channel while teaching, hang on.
22 Jan 2010 12:51:01 < kribacr> vensa: Because I don't know everything about lojban?
22 Jan 2010 12:51:13 < vensa> kribacr: I know. just teasing. u'u
22 Jan 2010 12:51:38 < Melvar> It’s a superset of the standard German QUERTZ keyboard. The standard setting for locale de_DE on Ubuntu Linux.
22 Jan 2010 12:51:54 < vensa> uggg
22 Jan 2010 12:52:03 < vensa> doesn't sound "standard" to me :P
22 Jan 2010 12:53:56 < Melvar> It’s DIN 2137-2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Germany_and_Austria_.28but_not_Switzerland.29 . This layout is, as I said, a superset of that.
22 Jan 2010 12:54:01 < vensa> Hugglesworth: seems like you've got all the subjects you like in your degree. computers - check. language - check (japanese). combat - check (didn't the japanese invent some form of combat?)
22 Jan 2010 12:54:26 < Hugglesworth> meh, karate's lame
22 Jan 2010 12:54:28 < vensa> melvar: sorry. I can't solve all your problems. move to the US :)
22 Jan 2010 12:54:45 <@xalbo> You cannot nest {lo'u ... le'u} quotes.  {lo'u} quotes up to the next {le'u}, paying no attention whatsoever to anything before it.
22 Jan 2010 12:55:13 < vensa> hmmm... xalbo: what about nexting lu\li'u?
22 Jan 2010 12:55:46 < vensa> can you nest those in themselves?
22 Jan 2010 12:56:01 < selckiku> vensa: yes
22 Jan 2010 12:56:08 < Melvar> doi vensa How is it a problem except for programming? And I have several times as many characters at my disposal.
22 Jan 2010 12:56:20 < selckiku> mi cusku lu mi cusku lu mi nelci la .lojban. li'u li'u
22 Jan 2010 12:56:24 < vensa> melvar: characters that nobody uses :P
22 Jan 2010 12:56:37 < vensa> selckiku: thanks
22 Jan 2010 12:56:46 < Melvar> Do you even have a “€”?
22 Jan 2010 12:57:00 < vensa> so to conclude: another important diff between error\regular quotes is the nesting ability
22 Jan 2010 12:57:18 < vensa> melvar: I don't need that sign since I don't trade in euro.... I have $ :)
22 Jan 2010 12:57:35 < Melvar> Which I do too.
22 Jan 2010 12:57:46 < vensa> (actually I usually trade in NIS and I don't have a sign for that. but no biggy)
22 Jan 2010 12:58:41 < Melvar> “₪”?
22 Jan 2010 12:58:46 < vensa> yes
22 Jan 2010 12:58:50 <@Broca> shekel
22 Jan 2010 12:58:56 < vensa> do you have a single keypress for that?
22 Jan 2010 12:59:18 < Melvar> No, that one’s obscure enough that I don’t have it.
22 Jan 2010 12:59:26 < vensa> :(
22 Jan 2010 12:59:46 < Melvar> It would be trivial to add though, if I used it.
22 Jan 2010 13:00:05 < vensa> so why can't you "trivially" add {}?
22 Jan 2010 13:00:25 < Melvar> They’re there! I told you how to get them.
22 Jan 2010 13:00:51 <@xalbo> {lu ... li'u} can certainly be nested.
22 Jan 2010 13:01:02 < vensa> what's altgr?
22 Jan 2010 13:01:16 < Melvar> .oi
22 Jan 2010 13:01:38 < vensa> is that one or two keys?
22 Jan 2010 13:02:23 < vensa> I read it's like regular alt+ctrl but in one key... correct?
22 Jan 2010 13:02:27 < selckiku> lu lu lojbo li'u lu lojbo li'u du li'u cu jetnu je jufra
22 Jan 2010 13:02:52 < vensa> selckiku: you live for this stuff, eh?
22 Jan 2010 13:02:54 < Melvar> “Alt gr”, standing for “alternate graphics”, is the common name for the ISO level 3 shift key.
22 Jan 2010 13:03:10 < vensa> so it's ONE key? thanks
22 Jan 2010 13:03:19 < vensa> so then whats the big deal???
22 Jan 2010 13:03:34 < vensa> why have we been discussing how "unconvenient" it is for you?
22 Jan 2010 13:03:40 < vensa> if it's just like "shift+["?
22 Jan 2010 13:03:57 < selckiku> vensa: yeah the shape of lojban sentences is why i came back to the language
22 Jan 2010 13:04:17 < selckiku> vensa: i couldn't get out of my head how bridi contain sumti that contain bridi in perfect loops
22 Jan 2010 13:04:18 < vensa> came back? did you get divorced?
22 Jan 2010 13:04:25 < Melvar> Alt gr, where it exists, takes the place of the right Alt key. Press that and 7 to 0 together.
22 Jan 2010 13:04:34 < selckiku> yes i left lojban several times before i learned it well
22 Jan 2010 13:04:45 < lindar> Yeah, and you're probably one of the more fluent speakers.
22 Jan 2010 13:05:22 < lindar> I saw your message on jbofanva. It's a brilliant example of what I consider to be "native dialect" Lojban.
22 Jan 2010 13:05:23 < vensa> 7 to 0 together?? 5 keys altogether?
22 Jan 2010 13:05:26 < Melvar> …Maybe I should change to neo2.
22 Jan 2010 13:05:40 < Melvar> No, each one for one of the brackets and braces.
22 Jan 2010 13:06:23 < selckiku> usually when i'm talking to a nintadni, a fresh one, my attitude is that they're probably going to leave.. they're probably not just going to keep studying until they're fluent in lojban, they're going to be distracted first, because it's a large and pointless zo'o undertaking :).. so i try to just plant a seed in their mind that they can come back to it later
22 Jan 2010 13:06:55 < vensa> thought experiment: I am simultaneously translating what some dude is saying "live". Except, I'm not really transalting. I'm quoting his words. e.g. he says "coi rodo" - i say: "ko'a cusku lu coi rodo li'u"
22 Jan 2010 13:07:02 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit ["Leaving."]
22 Jan 2010 13:07:18 < lindar> ...that would be extremely difficult to translate live.
22 Jan 2010 13:07:21 < selckiku> lindar: hmm yeah i was just conversationally writing that.. i didn't use a dictionary at all in that post as i recall
22 Jan 2010 13:07:26 < lindar> ...and what happened to your fancy word for the previous speaker? xD
22 Jan 2010 13:07:28 < kribacr> selckiku: You have to think more positively. Hook them in, like I do.
22 Jan 2010 13:07:47 < vensa> kribacr: that's a different thought experiment. listen.
22 Jan 2010 13:07:51 < Melvar> The L4B contains a reference to a Polish politician whose name contains “ł” and “ę”.
22 Jan 2010 13:07:56 < vensa> sorry.. I meant lindar
22 Jan 2010 13:08:34 < vensa> as I was saying. I'm simultaneously "repeating" with "lu\li'u" quotes,
22 Jan 2010 13:09:09 < vensa> all of a sudden, this dude says "fa'o". I'm already half way into a "lu" quote. if I quote his fa'o, it's the end of the world..... :) what do I do?
22 Jan 2010 13:09:22 < selckiku> mi ba zi klama le taxfu lumci minji dinju co'o ro do
22 Jan 2010 13:09:28 < kribacr> You say {li'u ce lo'u fa'o le'u ce lu}
22 Jan 2010 13:09:34 < kribacr> And hope you can catch back up...
22 Jan 2010 13:09:34 < lindar> My husband said that you're on the right track, but you should probably expand the meaning to "animate creatures", to which I would add "who are capable of some kind of locomotion" and possibly "with preference to things closer resembling humans taking preference". However, this is a HUUUUUUUUGE stretch and very unlojbanic. <3
22 Jan 2010 13:09:55 < lindar> Wow, department of redundancy department right there.
22 Jan 2010 13:10:13 < lindar> I meant "with things more closely resembling humans taking preference".
22 Jan 2010 13:10:27 < vensa> kribacr: good idea. BUT wouldn't that be implying that the quotee had used error quotes himself?
22 Jan 2010 13:11:01 < kribacr> No.
22 Jan 2010 13:11:02 < vensa> lindar: I won't acknowledge that since I'm guessing it's a joke at my expence
22 Jan 2010 13:11:27 < vensa> kribacr: then what would I say if he HAD said the error quotes himself?
22 Jan 2010 13:11:34 < kribacr> You seem to be very, very worried about what to do in really, really obscure circumstances, vensa.
22 Jan 2010 13:11:46 < vensa> kribacr: that's just the type of guy I am
22 Jan 2010 13:11:51 < vensa> always paranoid :P
22 Jan 2010 13:12:05 < kribacr> "Oh no! Fourteen monkeys came in carrying a piano filled with salt! What do I do? I didn't plan for this!"
22 Jan 2010 13:12:10 < vensa> jk. I'm checking the "strength" of the language
22 Jan 2010 13:12:16 < Twey> Hahahaha
22 Jan 2010 13:12:19 < vensa> lmao, kribacr
22 Jan 2010 13:12:20 < kribacr> "OH SHI- AND THEY STARTED SPEAKING PORTUGESE!!111"
22 Jan 2010 13:12:46 < lindar> vensa: No, I wasn't joking. Serious suggestion, I still think your word/idea is stupid, but the idea behind it has a small amount of merit to it.
22 Jan 2010 13:12:46 < vensa> lol
22 Jan 2010 13:12:47 < kribacr> vensa: I know you are, but it doesn't mean I won't give you shit for it.
22 Jan 2010 13:13:05 < vensa> :) <3 awwww thanks
22 Jan 2010 13:15:00 < vensa> kribacr: so what's ur plan?
22 Jan 2010 13:15:06 -!- LogicalDash [n=LogicalD@ool-43552561.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 13:15:17 < vensa> (for the obscure thought experiment scenario)
22 Jan 2010 13:15:36 < vensa> or anyone for that matter... lindar? thoughts?
22 Jan 2010 13:15:36 < lindar> .i o'i lo pavo smani ku bevri lo pipno co se nenri be lo silna .i doi la vensa zukte ma !!!
22 Jan 2010 13:15:54 < lindar> shit
22 Jan 2010 13:16:05 < lindar> s/la vensa/la vensa ku/
22 Jan 2010 13:16:10 < lindar> DAMN YOUR SELBRI NAME
22 Jan 2010 13:16:15 < kribacr> .u'i
22 Jan 2010 13:16:40 < vensa> muahaha
22 Jan 2010 13:16:52 < vensa> let that be a lesson to ALWAYS use "cu" :P
22 Jan 2010 13:16:53 < lindar> s/muahaha/bua'a'a
22 Jan 2010 13:17:02 < vensa> lol
22 Jan 2010 13:17:05 < lindar> No, let that be a lesson to remember your terminators.
22 Jan 2010 13:17:12 < vensa> "cu" is a terminator
22 Jan 2010 13:17:18 < kribacr> No, it's not.
22 Jan 2010 13:17:33 < kribacr> No, don't always use {cu}. {cu} wouldn't have worked in that situation.
22 Jan 2010 13:17:34 < vensa> echhh.. it's not
22 Jan 2010 13:17:42 < kribacr> If you had learned your terminators you would have realized that.
22 Jan 2010 13:17:44 < kribacr> But you didn't.
22 Jan 2010 13:17:49 < kribacr> That's why we teach them how we do now.
22 Jan 2010 13:18:02 < vensa> cu doesn't end a doi clause?
22 Jan 2010 13:18:03 < kribacr> *{.i doi la vensa cu zukte ma} is not grammatical.
22 Jan 2010 13:18:06 < lindar> Every time you say {.i mi cu co'e} Jesus cockslaps your gran.
22 Jan 2010 13:18:09 <@xalbo> {ku} or {do'u} would have worked, but {cu} would have been illegal without a preceding term.
22 Jan 2010 13:18:14 < kribacr> {cu} has to have a sumti before it.
22 Jan 2010 13:18:24 < kribacr> It is more closely called a "separator".
22 Jan 2010 13:18:31 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 13:18:37 < kribacr> It's not a "terminator" though it does essentially "terminate".
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22 Jan 2010 13:18:58 < vensa> thanks. krib. good lesson of the day
22 Jan 2010 13:19:07 < lindar> YAY
22 Jan 2010 13:19:13 < vensa> 1-0 to lindar
22 Jan 2010 13:19:33 < vensa> lindar, are you keeping the summed score?
22 Jan 2010 13:19:44 < vensa> I think it's something like 3 to 1
22 Jan 2010 13:19:48 < lindar> ba'e snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadaaaaaaaaaa
22 Jan 2010 13:19:59 < lindar> Uhhh, by whose count?
22 Jan 2010 13:20:12 < vensa> objective count of course
22 Jan 2010 13:20:16 < lindar> Exactly.
22 Jan 2010 13:20:17 < vensa> la lojbo cevni
22 Jan 2010 13:20:22 < donri> who thinks gismu categories is a good project?
22 Jan 2010 13:20:37 < donri> or perhaps rather more like tags, as they could perhaps be allowed to overlap
22 Jan 2010 13:20:43 < lindar> By my count I'm up at least twenty points ahead of you, which puts me at a solid five points.
22 Jan 2010 13:20:51 < lindar> gismu categories?
22 Jan 2010 13:20:56 < vensa> I said objective. not subjective
22 Jan 2010 13:21:14 < donri> "animal gismu's" "stuff in a kitchen" whatever MAN!
22 Jan 2010 13:21:18 < lindar> Clearly your count is not objective.
22 Jan 2010 13:21:28 < kribacr> donri: I'm fine with that entirely.
22 Jan 2010 13:21:31 < vensa> I know you are but what am I?
22 Jan 2010 13:21:33 < kribacr> There's already a half-list of that.
22 Jan 2010 13:21:34 < Hugglesworth> donri: a tagging project would be cool
22 Jan 2010 13:22:08 < lindar> donri: That sounds like a fantastic idea if you're building a quick reference guide that includes common lujvo. "Kitchen terminology", "living space terminology", "computer terminology" <---work in progress, "sports terminology"
22 Jan 2010 13:22:09 < vensa> donri: while you're at it why don't you refine the gismu definitions
22 Jan 2010 13:22:13 < lindar> I think that'd be really cool, donri.
22 Jan 2010 13:22:36 < kribacr> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Gismu+by+lesson&fullscreen=y doi donri
22 Jan 2010 13:22:48 < kribacr> On that subject...
22 Jan 2010 13:22:49 < lindar> loi gismu don't get 'refined'. They stay how they stay unless there's a serious problem with them.
22 Jan 2010 13:23:01 < donri> like, if you want to be able to discuss one subject in lojban, you might look for relevant gismu categories to study vocab
22 Jan 2010 13:23:16 < vensa> the serious problem is that some are not completely clear on what goes in which slot
22 Jan 2010 13:23:18 < kribacr> I think what he means by "refine" is something that I agree needs to be done... the word list is really not that clear in a lot of places.
22 Jan 2010 13:23:26 < lindar> donri: That sounds like a FANTASTIC idea. That's kind of what I was trying to do before I started jbofanva.
22 Jan 2010 13:23:47 < donri> this mildly intersects with xalbo's idea about place subhierarchies
22 Jan 2010 13:24:11 < donri> but maybe that's too technical to be very useful for the less technical problem of vocab studies
22 Jan 2010 13:24:13 < kribacr> I've also been mildly interested in notating certain places as being roughly equivelant to BAI tags.
22 Jan 2010 13:24:23 < kribacr> Like... you could probably say x1 of klama is a {gau}.
22 Jan 2010 13:24:41 < donri> kribacr, that is also related to xalbo's idea
22 Jan 2010 13:24:44 < lindar> It sounds like a fantastic undertaking that'll help expand everybody's vocabulary.
22 Jan 2010 13:25:03 < donri> xalbo's idea being storing truths like "ro klama cu gasnu"
22 Jan 2010 13:25:08 < donri> "every goer is an agent"
22 Jan 2010 13:25:10 < lindar> I'd be glad to help with this. If you give me a subject, I can document as much terminology as I can and create new lujvo where necessary.
22 Jan 2010 13:25:12 < donri> (if now this is true.)
22 Jan 2010 13:25:13 < kribacr> Ah!
22 Jan 2010 13:25:17 < kribacr> Gotcha.
22 Jan 2010 13:25:33 < donri> doesn't have to be stored in lojban, but could be (in theory. might just complicate things.)
22 Jan 2010 13:25:48 < kribacr> I like the recently brought up idea (can't remember who said it) about turning complex lujvo into fu'ivla.
22 Jan 2010 13:26:02 < donri> more specifically an asymmetrical inheritance link between predicate places
22 Jan 2010 13:26:10 < lindar> fu'ivla of the lujvo?
22 Jan 2010 13:26:12 < kribacr> For example, xumjimcelxa'i -> jimcela
22 Jan 2010 13:26:14 < kribacr> Yep.
22 Jan 2010 13:26:16 < lindar> It's copied from Lojban. xD
22 Jan 2010 13:26:32 < lindar> That's AWESOME.
22 Jan 2010 13:26:37 < donri> but i think categories would be more directly useful for us humans, and easier to get started with
22 Jan 2010 13:26:38 < vensa> donri: I suggest you start with the "sex terminology" category, as that is the most highly discussed topic here :P
22 Jan 2010 13:27:08 < donri> if we get something done in that direction, it could make it easier later to implement xalbo's idea too.
22 Jan 2010 13:27:16 < kribacr> I like that word, and not just because I made it up. Rolls off the tongue nicely. {jimcela}. *boner*
22 Jan 2010 13:28:07 < donri> we already kinda have this by power of Cf notes, but it's not perfect
22 Jan 2010 13:28:39 < donri> e.g. "cf skami" on makfa lists entries relevant to computing
22 Jan 2010 13:29:14 < donri> | ft gismu, if you like.
22 Jan 2010 13:29:49 < vensa> donri: cool. I didn't realize the "cf" command existed. that might come in helpful. thanks
22 Jan 2010 13:30:19 < kribacr> I've actually been envisioning a new way to browse / organize webpages that I'd like to see incorporated into jbo learning somehow.
22 Jan 2010 13:30:20 < lindar> Woah.
22 Jan 2010 13:30:21 < vensa> wow... cool command... someone should tell mathw about it
22 Jan 2010 13:30:24 < donri> vensa, it's really just a short for searching notes for {$1}
22 Jan 2010 13:30:35 < lindar> Well, this sounds really cool.
22 Jan 2010 13:30:40 < kribacr> If you're familiar with Dasher, it's like that, but instead of writing words, you navigate webpages.
22 Jan 2010 13:30:44 < lindar> kribacr: Have you been keeping up on jbofanva at all?
22 Jan 2010 13:30:53 < vensa> donri: i see more than just the direct notes of x1
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22 Jan 2010 13:31:07 < kribacr> Not really. Is it just about translating that OS or whatever?
22 Jan 2010 13:31:09 < krici> coi r odo
22 Jan 2010 13:31:12 < krici> *rodo
22 Jan 2010 13:31:16 < kribacr> If so, I'll be blunt and say I don't really give a damn about it. :P
22 Jan 2010 13:31:22 < vensa> coi la krici
22 Jan 2010 13:31:25 < vensa> pei
22 Jan 2010 13:31:27 < kribacr> coi la krici
22 Jan 2010 13:31:44 < lindar> I think you'd be interested in it. I absolutely hate the existing body of computer terminology, so I'm having to rewrite it at the same time that I'm translating things.
22 Jan 2010 13:31:53 < kribacr> You'd thing wrong.
22 Jan 2010 13:32:01 < kribacr> Honestly my care-o-meter is pretty low.
22 Jan 2010 13:32:16 < kribacr> I'm glad you're doing something, but I don't care enough about alternate OSes to get involved.
22 Jan 2010 13:32:20 < lindar> I'd love your opinion. For example, xorxes absolutely MUST calque everything. Do you think {canko} is appropriate for a "window" (computer term)?
22 Jan 2010 13:32:23 < kribacr> How's that for encouragement!
22 Jan 2010 13:32:29 -!- EnglishGent is now known as EnglisGent^sleep
22 Jan 2010 13:32:30 < donri> vensa, huh?
22 Jan 2010 13:32:40 < vensa> oh no!!!! not the window conversation again.. please...
22 Jan 2010 13:32:45 < lindar> xD
22 Jan 2010 13:32:47 < krici> haha
22 Jan 2010 13:33:08 < kribacr> xalbo just crashed ><
22 Jan 2010 13:33:08 < lindar> Okay okay, I'll leave it on jbofanva.
22 Jan 2010 13:33:08 < donri> vensa, i said $1, not x1. "cf skami" lists entries who have "{skami}" inside the notes.
22 Jan 2010 13:33:09 < vensa> donri: if I "cf skami" I get more words than just "q skami"
22 Jan 2010 13:33:22 < donri> yep, it's not piped to show
22 Jan 2010 13:33:28 < vensa> donri: oh. so it's kind of a "backwards lookup" thing?
22 Jan 2010 13:33:30 < donri> q is find+show
22 Jan 2010 13:33:37 < donri> which shows all information for the first match
22 Jan 2010 13:34:01 < vensa> ohhhhhhh
22 Jan 2010 13:34:06 < vensa> didn't realize that either :)
22 Jan 2010 13:34:10 < kribacr> I can kinda see {canko} as a computer window. But ...
22 Jan 2010 13:34:15 < kribacr> Hmm.
22 Jan 2010 13:34:18 < kribacr> I'm really torn on that.
22 Jan 2010 13:34:29 < krici> I'll be honest...I thought about it. Though I despise sam(y)- and kib(y)- everything, wouldn't leaving that off make a few identical lujvo mean different things? Even if the context is obvious, that's the argument for English homonyms.
22 Jan 2010 13:34:32 < lindar> The word the other side is proposing: vingreku
22 Jan 2010 13:35:06 < kribacr> I don't see how {greku} would be any better.
22 Jan 2010 13:35:12 < kribacr> They are both going to allude to physical objects.
22 Jan 2010 13:35:36 < vensa> krici: what about my proposal, that "inside the GUI" it will be called "canko" and if you wanted to refer to a computer window in RL when talking about something out of context, you say "skami-canko"
22 Jan 2010 13:35:41 < lindar> Yes, but a canko is an aperture in a barrier, whereas a vingreku is a framed view.
22 Jan 2010 13:36:18 < lindar> A computer window isn't a hole in anything, it's a framed view of the programme.
22 Jan 2010 13:36:21 < krici> vensa: that could work
22 Jan 2010 13:36:27 < vensa> krici: think how many extra "skami" you'll be getting inside the GUI?
22 Jan 2010 13:36:37 < vensa> (if you over use it
22 Jan 2010 13:36:43 < krici> It would just have to be defined as such and I'd love it.
22 Jan 2010 13:36:51 < vensa> :)
22 Jan 2010 13:36:52 < krici> ;)
22 Jan 2010 13:36:56  * lindar shrugs.
22 Jan 2010 13:38:57 -!- djanatyn-fonxa [n=djanatyn@173-125-117-207.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 13:39:16 < djanatyn-fonxa> \o/
22 Jan 2010 13:39:48 < lindar> Also, I don't see how greku necessitates physicality.
22 Jan 2010 13:39:51  * Melvar proposes namespacing.
22 Jan 2010 13:39:51 < lindar> Oh djan.
22 Jan 2010 13:39:55 -!- MigoMipo [n=migomipo@84-217-8-147.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
22 Jan 2010 13:39:58 < lindar> namespacing?
22 Jan 2010 13:40:48 < vensa> "using skami".... blah blah blah canko... (like that?)
22 Jan 2010 13:41:12 < vensa> I kinda like it
22 Jan 2010 13:41:18 < Melvar> Yes. Well used, it can ensure proper scope resolution.
22 Jan 2010 13:41:33 < vensa> we could have another elidable terminator :)
22 Jan 2010 13:41:36 < vensa> to end the scope
22 Jan 2010 13:41:46 < Melvar> With a scope in this case being an associated word group.
22 Jan 2010 13:41:51 < lindar> What the hell do you mean?
22 Jan 2010 13:42:14 < vensa> If I'm starting to talk about computers now...
22 Jan 2010 13:42:29 < vensa> and I want all the "terms" that I use to be understood as referring to computer terms...
22 Jan 2010 13:42:38 < lindar> Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........
22 Jan 2010 13:42:45 < Melvar> …if there is such a one…
22 Jan 2010 13:42:55 < vensa> I say "<using> skami.."
22 Jan 2010 13:42:56  * lindar wonders if {ni'o} can have a NOI clause.
22 Jan 2010 13:43:13 <@xalbo> I think {noi} only applies to sumti.
22 Jan 2010 13:43:18 < vensa> incorporation with ni'o is a good idea
22 Jan 2010 13:43:32 <@xalbo> You want a nonce-tenselike you can {ki}
22 Jan 2010 13:43:36 < vensa> ni'o skami... bla bla bla
22 Jan 2010 13:43:47 < kribacr> Maybe make that bastard child {bo} have one more use!
22 Jan 2010 13:43:53 < kribacr> skami bo ki
22 Jan 2010 13:43:54 < kribacr> :P
22 Jan 2010 13:44:19 < vensa> now, question is how do we mark the words that we want to be "interpreted" inside the context of the "using"?
22 Jan 2010 13:44:31 <@xalbo> {fi'o se casnu lo skami ki}
22 Jan 2010 13:44:32 < vensa> probably we wouldnt want all of them to be
22 Jan 2010 13:44:43 < lindar> Uhhh... now you've run off the track.
22 Jan 2010 13:44:58 < kribacr> !
22 Jan 2010 13:45:04 < kribacr> Excellent, xalbo. Very good.
22 Jan 2010 13:45:11 < kribacr> And {fi'o} to the rescue! I love it.
22 Jan 2010 13:45:13 < vensa> the "using" clause will tell you that "canko" actually means "skami-canko"
22 Jan 2010 13:45:25 < Melvar> Well, if you want a word that has a specific meaning within the using to have a different meaning, you’d have to say so.
22 Jan 2010 13:45:51 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 13:46:07 < lindar> vensa, quit being a fuckhead. I know you're using that just to be a dick to me, and while I appreciate that you're making friendly jabs, this is one thing that I'm not taking lightly. I've put a lot of time and effort into this project and organising the effort, so please don't demean my efforts.
22 Jan 2010 13:46:28 < vensa> who's demeaning
22 Jan 2010 13:46:36 < Melvar> That is, you’re going to have to fully qualify it if it exists in more than one used namespace.
22 Jan 2010 13:46:41 < djanatyn-fonxa> Hey hey hey!
22 Jan 2010 13:46:50 < djanatyn-fonxa> I got an A on my test!
22 Jan 2010 13:46:52 < kribacr> .i fi'o se casnu lo skami ki ko jai gau kalri lo cinmo .i ko darxi lo batke
22 Jan 2010 13:47:00  * djanatyn-fonxa pushes the A in lindar's face
22 Jan 2010 13:47:04 < vensa> melvar: cool... do you do C#?
22 Jan 2010 13:47:16 < Melvar> To some extent, yes.
22 Jan 2010 13:47:27 < lindar> I've already expressed my dislike of that metaphor, I've already come up with a suitable term that I'm going to use unless somebody magically comes up with a better one ({vingreku}), and I'd prefer you stick with the prescribed terminology instead of that horrible malgli calque of a colloquialism.
22 Jan 2010 13:47:47 < vensa> lindar..
22 Jan 2010 13:48:05 < djanatyn-fonxa> vensa...just cool down! :3
22 Jan 2010 13:48:09 < vensa> don't you see that if you start on this path, then you're going to be in here every day, for a thousand days, looking for "new" words
22 Jan 2010 13:48:22  * djanatyn-fonxa already broke up one fight today ;) (IRL)
22 Jan 2010 13:48:23 < lindar> I'm sorry for being rude, but when it comes to work (and I consider this work), I don't screw around. I'm extremely A-type about things.
22 Jan 2010 13:48:35 < Melvar> I think I agree that calques should be avoided.
22 Jan 2010 13:48:44 < lindar> ...and I'm not looking for new words. We've actually covered a large body of terminology already.
22 Jan 2010 13:48:53 -!- MigoMipo [n=migomipo@84-217-8-147.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 13:49:01 < djanatyn-fonxa> vensa: I think lindar knows what she's doing. She's been here a looooooong time.
22 Jan 2010 13:49:03 < vensa> hmmm.. let me ask you this:
22 Jan 2010 13:49:17 < vensa> what's the term for computer window in german? in french? in spanish? etc?
22 Jan 2010 13:49:30  * djanatyn-fonxa backs away as he is probably being unhelpful
22 Jan 2010 13:49:35 < lindar> Pretty much the only one that's up in the air right now is "open" as in "to open a file", which I think I very well may calque as the term makes enough for the sake of simplicity.
22 Jan 2010 13:50:00 < djanatyn-fonxa> Oh. Computer terminology.
22 Jan 2010 13:50:00 < lindar> vensa: Is Lojban a romance language?
22 Jan 2010 13:50:15 < djanatyn-fonxa> That's hard. *FAIL*
22 Jan 2010 13:50:17 < vensa> not the point
22 Jan 2010 13:50:22 < Melvar> doi lindar ; German isn’t.
22 Jan 2010 13:50:32 < lindar> Is Lojban a germanic language?
22 Jan 2010 13:51:08 < Melvar> …did you turn to me for that?
22 Jan 2010 13:51:19 < vensa> point A: why learn a whole new set of words to use for computers if all the languages use "loaned" words from everyday categories
22 Jan 2010 13:51:49 < djanatyn-fonxa> ...are you a lojbanist?
22 Jan 2010 13:52:02 < djanatyn-fonxa> If you want that, learn Esperanto.
22 Jan 2010 13:52:02 < vensa> point B: if I'm inside a computer GUI and I see the word "canko" what the hell other thing am I going to suppose that it refers to?
22 Jan 2010 13:52:33 -!- GGLucas [n=GGLucas@5357F9E6.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22 Jan 2010 13:52:35 < lindar> Your sole argument is to calque because then people that speak other languages will understand it. That's a SHITTY reason. If I refer to something on your computer as a "hole in a wall" are you going to have any idea of what I mean?
22 Jan 2010 13:52:46 < vensa> yes
22 Jan 2010 13:52:54 < vensa> by way of elimination
22 Jan 2010 13:52:57 < vensa> what can't you mean
22 Jan 2010 13:53:06  * djanatyn-fonxa doesn't know
22 Jan 2010 13:53:08 < vensa> you can't mean an actual hole in the wall becuz - no wall
22 Jan 2010 13:53:16 -!- GGLucas [n=GGLucas@5357F9E6.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 13:53:16 < lindar> "Okay, bring up this hole in the wall, open a passage to a recording, and then write on it."
22 Jan 2010 13:53:20 < djanatyn-fonxa> ...exploit?
22 Jan 2010 13:53:27 < vensa> yep
22 Jan 2010 13:53:28 < djanatyn-fonxa> Oh.
22 Jan 2010 13:53:30 < lindar> That's what the current terminology means.
22 Jan 2010 13:53:36 < vensa> all that, prefixed by "ni'o skami" should do
22 Jan 2010 13:54:04 < lindar> "I'm talking about computers: Bring up a new hole in your wall, open a passage to a recording, and write on it."
22 Jan 2010 13:54:06 < kribacr> {fi'o se casnu lo skami ku} ftw!
22 Jan 2010 13:54:09 < lindar> Makes perfect sense now.
22 Jan 2010 13:54:12 < kribacr> lo skami ki*
22 Jan 2010 13:54:19 < vensa> lol
22 Jan 2010 13:54:23 < vensa> it kinda does
22 Jan 2010 13:54:23 < djanatyn-fonxa> lol
22 Jan 2010 13:54:25 < djanatyn-fonxa> lawl
22 Jan 2010 13:54:27 < djanatyn-fonxa> xD
22 Jan 2010 13:54:34 < lindar> kribacr: I'm actually not familiar with {ki}. Maybe you could explain it when I'm not beating down newbies?
22 Jan 2010 13:54:37  * djanatyn-fonxa should GTFO.
22 Jan 2010 13:54:42 < kribacr> It's simple. It stickies a tag.
22 Jan 2010 13:54:55 < vensa> fine. this newbie is going to sleep
22 Jan 2010 13:55:00 < vensa> so you can let down your guard :P
22 Jan 2010 13:55:01 < kribacr> If you were talking about "A long time ago" in terms of a story... you'd say {pu zu ki} - and that sticks until you re-ki.
22 Jan 2010 13:55:07  * djanatyn-fonxa is a newbie! :D
22 Jan 2010 13:55:08 < vensa> co'o rodo
22 Jan 2010 13:55:16 < djanatyn-fonxa> A very cladu newbie.
22 Jan 2010 13:55:55 < djanatyn-fonxa> co'o vensa
22 Jan 2010 13:56:00 < djanatyn-fonxa> ko pluka senva
22 Jan 2010 13:56:17 < Melvar> How do you reverse the ki?
22 Jan 2010 13:56:32 < kribacr> Just say {ki} with no tag preceding it.
22 Jan 2010 13:56:57 < kribacr> .i mi ki cusku dei
22 Jan 2010 13:57:23 < kribacr> http://jbotcan.org/cllc/c10/s13.html go
22 Jan 2010 13:59:00 < Twey> lindar: ‘The documentation’?  I think I missed part of that conversation.
22 Jan 2010 14:00:39 < donri> kribacr, those categories do look fine, although we need to name them, and probably add more, some intersecting, categories.
22 Jan 2010 14:00:49 < donri> e.g. "merko" is not just a language word, it's a culture word, etc.
22 Jan 2010 14:01:12 < kribacr> donri: Oh, on that list I linked earlier?
22 Jan 2010 14:01:18 < donri> yes
22 Jan 2010 14:01:18 < kribacr> Definitely, I just thought it might be a good place to start.
22 Jan 2010 14:01:24 < donri> in deed
22 Jan 2010 14:01:45 < lindar> Oh?
22 Jan 2010 14:02:00 < lindar> Momentary connection hiccup.
22 Jan 2010 14:02:02 < lindar> Where were we?
22 Jan 2010 14:02:06 < lindar> Last thing I caught was "<kribacr> It's simple. It stickies a tag."
22 Jan 2010 14:02:10 < lindar> Momentary connection hiccup.
22 Jan 2010 14:02:10 < donri> i have this crazy idea that it might be easier to learn words by category
22 Jan 2010 14:02:12 < lindar> Last thing I caught was "<kribacr> It's simple. It stickies a tag."
22 Jan 2010 14:02:17 < kribacr> <kribacr> If you were talking about "A long time ago" in terms of a story... you'd say {pu zu ki} - and that sticks until you re-ki.
22 Jan 2010 14:02:23 < donri> then you'll associate it with a situation, "when i was learning color words"
22 Jan 2010 14:02:25 < donri> etc
22 Jan 2010 14:03:04 < kribacr> I think sections like time/space, where you have loads of cmavo based off of gismu, would be a really good place to expand gismu vocabulary.
22 Jan 2010 14:03:07 < donri> then we combine categories and simplified definitions for awesome flashcards
22 Jan 2010 14:03:29 < kribacr> I'm off. I may be around, but if not, have a good weekend.
22 Jan 2010 14:03:34 < donri> je'e
22 Jan 2010 14:03:42 < lindar> I agree that it's easier to learn category words. It especially helps when you can bring up a whole reference and then go through with masking tape and a sharpie just labelling absolutely everything you can find.
22 Jan 2010 14:03:43 < kribacr> co'o
22 Jan 2010 14:03:47 < donri> pluka ko
22 Jan 2010 14:03:51 < donri> co'o se a'o pluka
22 Jan 2010 14:03:53 < kribacr> vi'o
22 Jan 2010 14:04:03 -!- kribacr [i=42c07e03@gateway/web/freenode/x-rvngubianxcsxcud] has quit ["Page closed"]
22 Jan 2010 14:04:16 -!- djanatyn-fonxa is now known as solarithan
22 Jan 2010 14:04:54 < solarithan> CAN YOU HEAR ME? XU DO TIRNA
22 Jan 2010 14:05:16 -!- solarithan is now known as djanatyn-fonxa
22 Jan 2010 14:06:00 < lindar> o_O
22 Jan 2010 14:06:15 < djanatyn-fonxa> I thought no one could hear me.
22 Jan 2010 14:06:22 < djanatyn-fonxa> Sorry! ^_^
22 Jan 2010 14:07:09 < lindar> Punk.
22 Jan 2010 14:07:40 < lindar> Anyway.... I'm pretty wiped. I walked several long-distance-units in pouring rain through flooded streets.
22 Jan 2010 14:08:08 < djanatyn-fonxa> Aww. :(
22 Jan 2010 14:08:29 < djanatyn-fonxa> I love it when it rains, and especially when it floods. But not when people get hurt.
22 Jan 2010 14:08:51 < djanatyn-fonxa> But some people do not love the rain as much as I.
22 Jan 2010 14:09:07 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 14:09:12 < lindar> It was fairly fun.
22 Jan 2010 14:09:17 < djanatyn-fonxa> And it is tiring - especially biking in the rain.
22 Jan 2010 14:09:38  * Twey sat under a balcony outside a coffee-shop drinking Earl Grey and listening to the sound of the rain
22 Jan 2010 14:09:39 < lindar> People were trying to drive through the anti-gridlock lanes (which were flooded) and ended up splashing people.
22 Jan 2010 14:09:44 < Twey> It was pleasant
22 Jan 2010 14:09:44 < djanatyn-fonxa> Biking in the rain is cold, tiring, fun, and awesome.
22 Jan 2010 14:09:45 < donri> ko morsi doi se cortu pe lo stedu be mi
22 Jan 2010 14:09:51 < donri> ba'e MORSI fako
22 Jan 2010 14:10:08 < Twey> .oi-dai
22 Jan 2010 14:10:13 < djanatyn-fonxa> .uinai dai
22 Jan 2010 14:10:32 < djanatyn-fonxa> I wish we could switch heads :(
22 Jan 2010 14:10:46 < Twey> I don't think that would help
22 Jan 2010 14:10:53  * djanatyn-fonxa rubs donri's head (while keeping a safe distance)
22 Jan 2010 14:11:24 < donri> la'a nu mi se nandu lo nu sipna keikei fa lo rinka
22 Jan 2010 14:11:30 < djanatyn-fonxa> Okay. I wish we could switch intensities of pain within our head. Temporarily.
22 Jan 2010 14:11:35 < donri> sei cizra lojbo iuse'isai
22 Jan 2010 14:11:47 < djanatyn-fonxa> ko viska loi nanla pixra
22 Jan 2010 14:11:58 < donri> ko se pixra
22 Jan 2010 14:12:16 < djanatyn-fonxa> .yyyyyyy. xu do ka'e lo nu sipna
22 Jan 2010 14:12:20 < djanatyn-fonxa> .u'i
22 Jan 2010 14:12:23 < donri> ko nenri pe'a lo mi menli
22 Jan 2010 14:12:55 < Twey> .u'i la'a terpa le do menli
22 Jan 2010 14:13:13  * djanatyn-fonxa had not a single person at his school understand his shirt. :(
22 Jan 2010 14:13:27 < donri> lo mi menli cu se kufra e'u
22 Jan 2010 14:13:34 < Twey> le do taxfu cu mo
22 Jan 2010 14:13:56 < lindar> What does your shirt say?
22 Jan 2010 14:13:57 < Twey> .u'i .a'u
22 Jan 2010 14:13:57 < donri> Twey, "/* No comment */"
22 Jan 2010 14:14:03 < Twey> Haha
22 Jan 2010 14:14:03 < djanatyn-fonxa> I go to a Science and Technology Academy, and NO ONE (not even staff) got my while(!(succeed=try())); shirt :(
22 Jan 2010 14:14:10 < Twey> Terrible, terrible
22 Jan 2010 14:14:13 < djanatyn-fonxa> donri: I have two shirts.
22 Jan 2010 14:14:18 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 14:14:23 < donri> i've never seen you with any shirt.
22 Jan 2010 14:14:24 < lindar> If at first you don't succeed, try try again.
22 Jan 2010 14:14:35 < lindar> Jeezus I don't even program and I could read that.
22 Jan 2010 14:14:36 < donri> shirtless bois omnomnom
22 Jan 2010 14:14:53 < djanatyn-fonxa> Yep. I mean, I don't think lindar even knows C/C++ (do you?)
22 Jan 2010 14:15:06 < lindar> You have NO idea how many people respond, "Uhhh... is that a website?" to my "There's no place like 127.0.0.1" shirt.
22 Jan 2010 14:15:12 < Twey> >.<
22 Jan 2010 14:15:13 < lindar> I don't know a bit of C.
22 Jan 2010 14:15:40 < lindar> Oh, and "Got Root?" gets me drug-related questions all day.
22 Jan 2010 14:15:49 < djanatyn-fonxa> Except if the try() subprocedure has no chance of being equal to whatever your value of success is...YOU WILL BE STUCK IN AN INFINITE LOOP FOREVER
22 Jan 2010 14:15:54 < Twey> *headscratch*
22 Jan 2010 14:15:56 < lindar> Most people thing I'm a weird health-nut or I'm a mescaline junky.
22 Jan 2010 14:16:00 < donri> succeed False = try
22 Jan 2010 14:16:02 < neptunepink> .iisai
22 Jan 2010 14:16:03 < Twey> Mescaline, eh
22 Jan 2010 14:16:06 < Twey> Hadn't heard that one
22 Jan 2010 14:16:32 < djanatyn-fonxa> ...okay. seriously? IS THAT A WEBSITE?
22 Jan 2010 14:16:57 < donri> try actually takes a seed value, but succeed is using currying.
22 Jan 2010 14:17:16 -!- selckiku [n=mungojel@c-98-229-3-244.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has left #lojban []
22 Jan 2010 14:17:53 < lindar> ...djan, please tell me that was an elaborate attempt at trolling.
22 Jan 2010 14:17:56 < djanatyn-fonxa> I KNEW THAT WHEN I WAS 7 YEARS OLD
22 Jan 2010 14:18:07 < lindar> Oh, you were balking.
22 Jan 2010 14:18:11 < lindar> Okay.
22 Jan 2010 14:18:11 < djanatyn-fonxa> I knew about wobsites.
22 Jan 2010 14:18:16 < djanatyn-fonxa> I even had a blag!
22 Jan 2010 14:18:28 < lindar> paunai = useful
22 Jan 2010 14:19:08  * djanatyn-fonxa had an interesting and scary comment today.
22 Jan 2010 14:19:17 < Twey> Just quoting would have done here.
22 Jan 2010 14:19:20 < Twey> In English, too.
22 Jan 2010 14:19:43 < lindar> Oh snap.
22 Jan 2010 14:19:50 < djanatyn-fonxa> "I feel like most people in this school, and in the world in general, are not very intelligent, or kind. But you are!"
22 Jan 2010 14:20:05 < Twey> From the girl?
22 Jan 2010 14:20:09 -!- tomoj [n=user@cpe-70-112-74-98.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22 Jan 2010 14:20:22 < lindar> Oh, is this the girl that wants to sex you?
22 Jan 2010 14:20:31 < djanatyn-fonxa> Oh no. The girl was joking. And the dance is today. So. I think she was desperate. :3
22 Jan 2010 14:20:41 < rossi> girls
22 Jan 2010 14:20:42 < rossi> sex
22 Jan 2010 14:20:48 < Twey> Desperate or joking?  Make up your mind :þ
22 Jan 2010 14:20:48 -!- sam_tceipn_ [n=sfwc@CPE0026080709d2-CM001371879186.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
22 Jan 2010 14:20:50 < djanatyn-fonxa> That was from David. The most intelligent kid in our school.
22 Jan 2010 14:20:54 < lindar> Either way, take her to the dance.
22 Jan 2010 14:20:57 < lindar> It'll be fun.
22 Jan 2010 14:20:58 < rossi> in every channel in every internet it's the same topic
22 Jan 2010 14:21:02 < Twey> Hear hear.
22 Jan 2010 14:21:06 < Twey> rossi: That's humanity for you.
22 Jan 2010 14:21:07 < djanatyn-fonxa> He is as emotionally fragile as a bubble of glass falling from Big Ben.
22 Jan 2010 14:21:35 < djanatyn-fonxa> I didn't go to the dance. My parents think dances are sinful and lustful
22 Jan 2010 14:21:59 < rossi> but... dancing rocks!
22 Jan 2010 14:22:05 < djanatyn-fonxa> Also. No one else was going. There were only...20 people? Everyone was going to Wendy's or ice-skating anyway.
22 Jan 2010 14:22:06 < lindar> Your parents are idiots and I hate them. Usually parents forbid you to do things like that because they did things themselves that were much worse.
22 Jan 2010 14:22:44 < lindar> My mother drilled it in me to never use drugs and never have sex before I got married. She could have been honest, but instead she tried to scare me with religion, which I didn't buy for a second.
22 Jan 2010 14:22:51 < djanatyn-fonxa> Don't hate them - but only because you know nothing about them besides my word of mouth.
22 Jan 2010 14:23:22 < lindar> 1. She tried marijuana when she was my age, got hungry, and fell asleep. The real reason she didn't want me to do it is because of the lifestyle it can lead to, which is essentially being unproductive and boring all the time.
22 Jan 2010 14:23:36 < djanatyn-fonxa> My parents actually were religious zombies, except my Dad. He was a baptist, until he married my mother.
22 Jan 2010 14:23:55 < lindar> Subsequently because she didn't explain this to me, I've smoked marijuana several times, and don't really enjoy it except under certain circumstances maybe every two to three months.
22 Jan 2010 14:24:17 < djanatyn-fonxa> All their stories are about religious escapades and converting their friends at school. T_T
22 Jan 2010 14:24:34 < djanatyn-fonxa> YOU HAVE A PERIOD?
22 Jan 2010 14:24:37 < lindar> 2. She was a slut in high school/college, so she tried to repay her guilt on me by trying to prevent me from having sex until I was married.
22 Jan 2010 14:24:53 < lindar> Didn't work. xD!
22 Jan 2010 14:25:17 < lindar> ...I don't know where I mentioned having a period, but incidentally I do.
22 Jan 2010 14:25:28 < djanatyn-fonxa> WHICH ONLY COMES EVERY FEW MONTHS?
22 Jan 2010 14:25:35 < djanatyn-fonxa> (strange.)
22 Jan 2010 14:25:51 < djanatyn-fonxa> Wait. You...do?
22 Jan 2010 14:26:01 < djanatyn-fonxa> How does that even work? ;)
22 Jan 2010 14:26:10  * djanatyn-fonxa pretends to be naive
22 Jan 2010 14:26:19 < Fraeon> Could we have this drama conversation in Lojban?
22 Jan 2010 14:26:28 < djanatyn-fonxa> (That's fun. When you're young, you can get away with it)
22 Jan 2010 14:26:34 < djanatyn-fonxa> Oh. We should.
22 Jan 2010 14:26:43 < djanatyn-fonxa> Sorry. (.u'u)
22 Jan 2010 14:26:59 < lindar> ...no, every month, and all men have cycles. Research endocrinology and stop talking about not-jbo in glibau.
22 Jan 2010 14:27:46 < djanatyn-fonxa> coi
22 Jan 2010 14:27:50 < djanatyn-fonxa> :)
22 Jan 2010 14:27:51 < Twey> .ie .i'e
22 Jan 2010 14:27:56 < djanatyn-fonxa> mi zvati...lo SORPREKARCE
22 Jan 2010 14:28:08 < lindar> MUhI MA
22 Jan 2010 14:28:10  * djanatyn-fonxa kills dotside and emphasis
22 Jan 2010 14:28:38 < lindar> .i mu'i ma do zvati
22 Jan 2010 14:29:01 < djanatyn-fonxa> mi klama lo kukte cidja
22 Jan 2010 14:29:16  * djanatyn-fonxa xagji .uinai
22 Jan 2010 14:29:40 <@xalbo> .i ko tavla zo'e pe'e ja zo'e ce'e zo'e la .lojban.
22 Jan 2010 14:30:20 < lindar> o_O
22 Jan 2010 14:33:05 < lindar> Is there a pro-sumti demonstrating time rather than distance?
22 Jan 2010 14:33:40 <@xalbo> What is the prosumti demonstrating distance?
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22 Jan 2010 14:35:23 < lindar> ti/ta/tu
22 Jan 2010 14:35:26 -!- rossi [n=rossi@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit ["leaving"]
22 Jan 2010 14:36:14 < lindar> Rather than "this thing/that thing/that yonder" why don't we have a pro-sumti for time-related...stuff?
22 Jan 2010 14:37:49 < lindar> That would definitely clear up some amount of pro-sumti ambiguity while still being extremely lojbanic about it.
22 Jan 2010 14:38:35 <@xalbo> So "some object that recently existed" vs "some object that will exist some distant time in the future"?
22 Jan 2010 14:39:06 < lindar> Then whatshistit the 'qi' guy could have what he wants, because a painting can't be associated with a recent happening/circumstance/event/action and a girl can, and I can refer to things like explosions, songs, and conversations.
22 Jan 2010 14:40:09 < lindar> Rather it's back-counting past "This thing associated with the very near past.", and so on for back-counting rules.
22 Jan 2010 14:40:22 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lojban
22 Jan 2010 14:40:34 < lindar> ...or perhaps there could be a version for the present.
22 Jan 2010 14:40:58 < lindar> So rather than "this thing here" it would be "this thing that is associated with an event that is happening right now".
22 Jan 2010 14:41:05 < chrisdone> lindar: are you lakmir's bit of stuff?
22 Jan 2010 14:41:26 < lindar> So if a song is playing, I could refer to it as "X pluka" or something. >_>
22 Jan 2010 14:41:41 < lindar> chrisdone, by that do you mean to ask if I am the author of larlermorna?
22 Jan 2010 14:42:18 < chrisdone> lindar: no, are you lakmir's spouse Lin?
22 Jan 2010 14:42:22 < lindar> xalbo: You have to admit that if we have any kind of grammar gender it's with time and space. =D
22 Jan 2010 14:42:46 < lindar> chrisdone: Oh, no! I don't think he's married, and if he is, his wife doesn't come 'round here that often.
22 Jan 2010 14:42:47 <@xalbo> Does {zo'e pe ca ku} mean what you want?
22 Jan 2010 14:43:04 < lindar> Yesh, I believe it does.
22 Jan 2010 14:43:14 <@xalbo> Ok.
22 Jan 2010 14:43:32 < lindar> Wouldn't it be just dandy to have a cmavo that means just that? Is there a distance-to-time converter that I can use to switch ti/ta/tu perhaps?
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22 Jan 2010 14:44:38 <@xalbo> {ti}/{ta}/{tu} are still about things being pointed out, though, not just "something near here".  I'm having trouble figuring out how you'd do the equivalent of pointing at something in the past.
22 Jan 2010 14:45:00 < mathw> damn that missing four-dimensional perception
22 Jan 2010 14:45:17 < mathw> I'm confused by {sisku}
22 Jan 2010 14:45:22 <@xalbo> (no disatance-to-time converter; {fe'e} converts temporal aspect to location, but that's the other way around)
22 Jan 2010 14:45:54 <@xalbo> "x1 searches among x3 for something that has property x2"
22 Jan 2010 14:46:16 < mathw> yes
22 Jan 2010 14:46:30 < mathw> the definition says about searching for objects
22 Jan 2010 14:46:49 < mathw> 'use tu'a in x2'
22 Jan 2010 14:48:58 <@xalbo> {tu'a} converts an object into an abstraction.  One such could be {lo ka <object> zvati ce'u} or {lo ka <object> du ce'u} or something.
22 Jan 2010 14:51:00 < lindar> {tu'a lo co'e ku} means the same as {lo su'u lo co'e ku co'e vau kei ku}
22 Jan 2010 14:51:45 < lindar> Oh yeah, with that ce'u crap in there when/if applicable.
22 Jan 2010 14:52:17 < djanatyn-fonxa> cool.
22 Jan 2010 14:52:31 <@xalbo> {lo co'e ku} is a lot like {zo'e}
22 Jan 2010 14:52:53 < lindar> Yeah, but I wanted to be explicit about lo/ku.
22 Jan 2010 14:53:08 <@xalbo> I think explicit {zo'e} gets underused, at times.  At least, {zo'e pe} is really handy.
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22 Jan 2010 14:54:23 < mathw> Hmm. Didn't follow that at all.
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22 Jan 2010 14:54:41 < mathw> Evidently I can't look for objects without learning more grammar
22 Jan 2010 14:55:13 <@xalbo> You can be looking for something that has the property of (being this particular object) or of (being the location of this particular thing)
22 Jan 2010 14:55:30 < mathw> oooh
22 Jan 2010 14:55:56 < mathw> yes of course if you think of it like that the lack of a gismu which takes an object goal is much more comprehensible
22 Jan 2010 14:56:43 < lindar> So you can sisku lo du'u zo'e zvati for example (AFAIK)
22 Jan 2010 14:57:31 < mathw> And what would that mean? I can guess, but I'd like to know for sure
22 Jan 2010 14:57:59 <@xalbo> {sisku lo ka <WHATEVER> zvati ce'u}, I think.
22 Jan 2010 14:58:17 < lindar> Ah, it has to be a ka, huh?
22 Jan 2010 14:58:22 < lindar> Right, cos property.
22 Jan 2010 14:58:29 < lindar> Well, blah.
22 Jan 2010 14:58:34 <@xalbo> Looking for something with the property of (<WHATEVER> being located there)
22 Jan 2010 14:58:48 < mathw> why do you need the {zvati}
22 Jan 2010 14:59:31 < lindar> It's the same reason you can't djica an apple.
22 Jan 2010 14:59:55 < lindar> .i mi djica lo plise <-----incorrect    correct--------> .i mi djica tu'a lo plise
22 Jan 2010 15:00:09 < lindar> Also correct: .i mi djica lo nu citka lo plise
22 Jan 2010 15:00:42 < mathw> the second one's more explicit though
22 Jan 2010 15:00:50 < mathw> because in the first one you might want the apple for some other purpose
22 Jan 2010 15:00:57 < lindar> Being that {tu'a} means {lo su'u zo'e co'e} we can assume that the su'u is nu, and the co'e is se citka.
22 Jan 2010 15:01:04 < lindar> Yes, but context. =P
22 Jan 2010 15:01:13 < mathw> you might want it for an archery target
22 Jan 2010 15:01:18 < mathw> but it's reasonable to assume that you probably want to eat it
22 Jan 2010 15:01:21 < lindar> Either way, somebody will probably give you an apple if they feel inclined.
22 Jan 2010 15:01:25 < mathw> yes
22 Jan 2010 15:01:48 < mathw> so {tu'a} is some general abstraction of an unspecified kind?
22 Jan 2010 15:02:11 <@xalbo> Yes.
22 Jan 2010 15:02:55 <@xalbo> {tu'a ko'a [lu'u]} (for all sumti {ko'a}) is exactly the same as {lo su'u ko'a co'e [kei] [ku]}
22 Jan 2010 15:06:23 < mathw> So would {mi sisku tu'a lo mlatu} be reasonably assumed to mean that I am searching for something which has the property of being a cat?
22 Jan 2010 15:07:01 <@xalbo> Seems reasonable.
22 Jan 2010 15:07:11 <@xalbo> {mi sisku lo ka mlatu} definitely would.
22 Jan 2010 15:07:31 < lindar> You could be more specific and say {.i mi sisku lo ka mlatu po mi}. "I am searching for my cat."
22 Jan 2010 15:08:23 < mathw> so {lo ka mlatu} is the property of being a cat
22 Jan 2010 15:08:29 <@xalbo> Not quite.  That's {lo ka mlatu kei ku po mi}, the property is associated with you.
22 Jan 2010 15:08:44 <@xalbo> (the not quite is to lindar, mathw is correct)
22 Jan 2010 15:08:45 < mathw> {po}? not {pe}?
22 Jan 2010 15:09:00 <@xalbo> {lo ka mlatu} is indeed the property of being a cat.
22 Jan 2010 15:09:58 < mathw> excellent
22 Jan 2010 15:10:00 < mathw> thanks :)
22 Jan 2010 15:11:12 < djanatyn-fonxa> KITTY
22 Jan 2010 15:12:47 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 15:13:07 < djanatyn-fonxa> lo ka mlatu!
22 Jan 2010 15:13:08 < lindar> lo ka mlatu po mi isn't lo ka mlatu po mi vau kei ku ?
22 Jan 2010 15:14:36 < timonator> it is.
22 Jan 2010 15:14:41 < timonator> uh
22 Jan 2010 15:14:44 < timonator> no, it isn't
22 Jan 2010 15:14:53  * timonator should not try lojban grammar advice past midnight
22 Jan 2010 15:14:59 <@xalbo> *{mlatu po mi} is a parsefail.
22 Jan 2010 15:15:10 <@xalbo> (at least, by itself)
22 Jan 2010 15:15:23 < lindar> ...okay, then how should I say it?
22 Jan 2010 15:16:44 <@xalbo> {mlatu gi'e srana mi}, or something like that.
22 Jan 2010 15:17:01 <@xalbo> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Common+beginner+mistakes
22 Jan 2010 15:19:29 < lindar> oooohhhh... I may have made one or more of those mistakes recently. =P
22 Jan 2010 15:20:26  * Melvar is sometimes frustrated at the detail that gets lost in lojbanization.
22 Jan 2010 15:20:42 < lindar> Lost?
22 Jan 2010 15:21:10 < lindar> I get frustrated with how much meaning is lost in Anglicising.
22 Jan 2010 15:21:23 < lindar> What details get lost in Lojbanising things?
22 Jan 2010 15:21:32 < djanatyn-fonxa> Yeah!
22 Jan 2010 15:21:52 < djanatyn-fonxa> (it is really hard to jump in a discussion every 5 minutes)
22 Jan 2010 15:21:57 < Melvar> [θ] gets lost, for example.
22 Jan 2010 15:22:10  * djanatyn-fonxa didn't get that character...
22 Jan 2010 15:22:13 < Melvar> It becomes /t/ or /s/.
22 Jan 2010 15:22:24 < djanatyn-fonxa> It is the square block of un-communication. xD
22 Jan 2010 15:22:24 < Melvar> It’s a lowercase greek theta.
22 Jan 2010 15:22:27 < lindar> ...or .y'y if you actually learned your jbo properly.
22 Jan 2010 15:22:31 < djanatyn-fonxa> Oh.
22 Jan 2010 15:23:17 < Melvar> .yʼy’s far too limited in position.
22 Jan 2010 15:23:25 < Melvar> Only between vowels.
22 Jan 2010 15:23:30 < lindar> Okay, so you meant it Lojbanising names...
22 Jan 2010 15:23:52 < lindar> I'm blanking out, so I'm going to sleep now.
22 Jan 2010 15:23:57 < Melvar> Yes. That’s the only meaning of “lojbanization” I know.
22 Jan 2010 15:24:25 < phma> what about making fu'ivla?
22 Jan 2010 15:25:18 < Melvar> …You could write <t̪̞> though.
22 Jan 2010 15:25:56 < phma> xu do tcidu lo fuþarka
22 Jan 2010 15:26:23 < Melvar> .i na go'i
22 Jan 2010 15:27:14 < phma> fu'arka, of course - that's an example where turning "þ" into "t" doesn't work
22 Jan 2010 15:27:38 < Melvar> How do you type <þ>?
22 Jan 2010 15:28:06 <@xalbo> Compose-t-h for me.
22 Jan 2010 15:28:08 < phma> AltGr-t-h where AltGr is set up to be the compose key.
22 Jan 2010 15:28:26 < Melvar> I have it as AltGr-P .
22 Jan 2010 15:28:44 < phma> ¶
22 Jan 2010 15:28:59 < Melvar> I have that on AltGr-r .
22 Jan 2010 15:29:52 < phma> What kbd layout do you have?
22 Jan 2010 15:30:41 < Melvar> de_DE default under Ubuntu.
22 Jan 2010 15:31:08 < phma> I use Dvorak with compose.
22 Jan 2010 15:32:20  * Twey too
22 Jan 2010 15:32:50 < Melvar> Oh, yes, I forgot: I remapped <h> to <ʼ>.
22 Jan 2010 15:33:31 < phma> Even when typing German?
22 Jan 2010 15:33:47 < Melvar> For the duration of doing the Exercises in L4B, but then I forget to switch back.
22 Jan 2010 15:34:07 < phma> Ic' glaube daß nic't.
22 Jan 2010 15:34:34 < Melvar> Dann guck docʼ mal genauer ʼin.
22 Jan 2010 15:35:03 < Melvar> I keep <h> on AltGr-ʼ .
22 Jan 2010 15:35:33 < Melvar> And it should be “das”.
22 Jan 2010 15:36:12 < Melvar> “daß” isn’t even a word under the new orthography.
22 Jan 2010 15:36:25 < CodeBlock> hi
22 Jan 2010 15:36:57 < phma> coi
22 Jan 2010 15:37:29 < Melvar> The “duʼu”-like word is written “dass”.
22 Jan 2010 15:43:07 < Melvar> So anyway, perhaps one could lojbanize “Athelas”, for example, as “.äs̪e̞läs.” or “.äʼ̪e̞läs.” to be precise about which realizations of the lojban phonemes are desired if the recipient understands it.
22 Jan 2010 15:43:49 < Melvar> If not, stripping off the diacritics leaves a perfectly serviceable standard lojbanization.
22 Jan 2010 15:48:50 < Twey> Sounds good to me, apart from your use of the right single quotation mark to represent the apostrophe.
22 Jan 2010 15:48:52 < Twey> That's just horrible.
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22 Jan 2010 15:55:06 < Melvar> It’s not a right single quotation mark (which is, though, the preferred character for the apostrophe). It’s U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE , meaning it is actually a letter, unlike <'>, which is a punctuation mark by property.
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22 Jan 2010 15:56:08 < Melvar> This means that there is a word-edge before <'>, but not before <ʼ>, which suits the use in Lojban far better.
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22 Jan 2010 19:10:18 < krfkeith> hello
22 Jan 2010 19:12:21 < kpreid> coi
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22 Jan 2010 21:04:53  * lindar flop.
22 Jan 2010 21:06:08  * donri flip.
22 Jan 2010 21:06:37 < lindar> Sex.
22 Jan 2010 21:06:39  * Hugglesworth flap
22 Jan 2010 21:06:53  * djanatyn_ flap
22 Jan 2010 21:06:57 < djanatyn_> MAN YOU BEAT ME
22 Jan 2010 21:07:28 < djanatyn_> hi lindar.
22 Jan 2010 21:07:31 < Hugglesworth> pwnd
22 Jan 2010 21:07:31  * donri crap
22 Jan 2010 21:07:36 < djanatyn_> hi hugglesworth
22 Jan 2010 21:07:59 < Hugglesworth> HI
22 Jan 2010 21:08:05 < lindar> Yep.
22 Jan 2010 21:08:50 < djanatyn_> Wanna Mumble?'
22 Jan 2010 21:09:03 < djanatyn_> It's, like, not your room-mate's bedtime now.
22 Jan 2010 21:09:09 < djanatyn_> And I don't think you're at night school.
22 Jan 2010 21:09:15 < djanatyn_> And my programming class did not follow me home.
22 Jan 2010 21:12:03 < djanatyn_> EVERYBODY IS INVITED TO MUMBLE
22 Jan 2010 21:12:06 < djanatyn_> MUMBLE EVERYONE
22 Jan 2010 21:12:10 < djanatyn_> LOJBAN.ORG
22 Jan 2010 21:15:55 < lindar> YAY!
22 Jan 2010 21:16:01 < lindar> I'll be on right after I eat.
22 Jan 2010 21:33:45 < lindar> >_>
22 Jan 2010 21:33:50 < lindar> Nobody is on Mumble.
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22 Jan 2010 21:53:31 < lindar> ...
22 Jan 2010 21:59:03 < lindar> Yeah, totally exciting.
22 Jan 2010 21:59:11 < lindar> "HEY, GET ON MUMBLE YOU GUYS!" *crickets*
22 Jan 2010 22:00:24 < tomoj> hehe
22 Jan 2010 22:00:49 < Hugglesworth> MUSIC BREAK!
22 Jan 2010 22:00:51 < Hugglesworth> "Just a small town girl, livin' in a lonely world"
22 Jan 2010 22:02:19 < lindar> SHE TOOK THE MIDNIHT TRAIN GOIN' AAAAANNYYYYYYYYYYWHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRE!!!!!
22 Jan 2010 22:03:00 < Hugglesworth> "Just a city boy, born and raised in South Detroit
22 Jan 2010 22:03:02 < Hugglesworth> "
22 Jan 2010 22:03:30 < tomoj> I love that everyone can sing that song
22 Jan 2010 22:04:23 < Hugglesworth> It's one behind Bohemian Rhapsody on the list of songs absolutely everyone can sing along with
22 Jan 2010 22:05:00 < lindar> xD
22 Jan 2010 22:05:24 < Hugglesworth> and one ahead of "Never Gonna Give you Up"
22 Jan 2010 22:05:31 < lindar> xD!!
22 Jan 2010 22:09:39 < lindar> "THAT is how -I- roll."
22 Jan 2010 22:09:53 < Hugglesworth> heh
22 Jan 2010 22:10:11 < lindar> So... what the hell?
22 Jan 2010 22:13:50 < donri> Hugglesworth, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfz7SfEooYQ
22 Jan 2010 22:14:38 < Hugglesworth> gah, youtube talent
22 Jan 2010 22:15:02 < donri> (leave it to donri to know boy-related relevance.)
22 Jan 2010 22:15:28 < donri> (leave it to youtubers to comment to the kid "you're hot".)
22 Jan 2010 22:15:32 < Hugglesworth> he's pretty good though
22 Jan 2010 22:15:45 < donri> in deed
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22 Jan 2010 22:16:46 < Hugglesworth> he's falling into the "wavy voice" trend that I've noticed in alot of recent singers... I'm not a fan
22 Jan 2010 22:17:07 < donri> agreed, but he does it quite well though
22 Jan 2010 22:17:17 < donri> i'm biased, of course. :)
22 Jan 2010 22:17:17 < Hugglesworth> better than most
22 Jan 2010 22:19:25 < donri> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsJeu0g1S94 not as good but it's always cute with boys idolising MJ xD
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22 Jan 2010 22:21:14 < Hugglesworth> >_>
22 Jan 2010 22:21:25 < donri> actually that was quite good at times. he has potential, but it is unstable.
22 Jan 2010 22:23:18 < Hugglesworth> gah, still with the wavy voice
22 Jan 2010 22:27:23 < donri> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRFKiAgoEjM first he kinda sucks, then new song.
22 Jan 2010 22:27:58 < donri> MJ+boys = can't go wrong.
22 Jan 2010 22:28:00 < donri> ;)
22 Jan 2010 22:28:22 < Hugglesworth> if you're gunna sing MJ you better be able to dance while you do it
22 Jan 2010 22:28:43 < donri> screw dancing, listen to that singing man.
22 Jan 2010 22:30:48 < Hugglesworth> last one was decent
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22 Jan 2010 22:32:40 < vensa> coi rodo
22 Jan 2010 22:32:56 < Hugglesworth> coi
22 Jan 2010 22:33:26 < vensa> coi xagyls .i ma cnino
22 Jan 2010 22:34:11 < Hugglesworth> noda
22 Jan 2010 22:35:08 < Hugglesworth> hahaha, BOC's music videos are so oldschool
22 Jan 2010 22:35:24 < vensa> a'u ma do tese klama
22 Jan 2010 22:35:40 < vensa> mo zgike skina
22 Jan 2010 22:35:49 < donri> BOC ki'a
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22 Jan 2010 22:36:23 < Hugglesworth> Blue oyster cult
22 Jan 2010 22:37:11 < Hugglesworth> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KhMomocD28 <-- good shit
22 Jan 2010 22:40:50 < vensa> ta cu du'eroi me li bino
22 Jan 2010 22:42:21 < Hugglesworth> u'i
22 Jan 2010 22:42:55 < vensa> wow... that was such a malglico attempt.....how would you express "that is SO 80's"?
22 Jan 2010 22:43:11 < tomoj> yap
22 Jan 2010 22:43:24 < tomoj> re the shit
22 Jan 2010 22:43:38 < tomoj> cool I can do  mpc list title artist "Blue Oyster Cult"  to see what I have
22 Jan 2010 22:46:30 < lindar> <_< .3 nosaeS frawD fo edosipe tsrif eht gnihctawnu detrats tsuj I
22 Jan 2010 22:47:04 < vensa> lindar: y r u typing backwards?
22 Jan 2010 22:47:10 < vensa> this ur new "thing"?
22 Jan 2010 22:47:58 < lindar> frawD deR*
22 Jan 2010 22:47:58 -!- lindar [n=lindarth@rrcs-173-196-20-139.west.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Hah, internet."]
22 Jan 2010 22:49:18 < vensa> doi la'oi Hugglesworth ma do tese klama
22 Jan 2010 22:49:53 < Hugglesworth> what's coming from me?
22 Jan 2010 22:50:01 < donri> dukse loka detri fali bino ce'oli biso
22 Jan 2010 22:50:01 < Hugglesworth> I don't know how to answer
22 Jan 2010 22:50:02 < donri> lol
22 Jan 2010 22:50:09 < donri> ok that sucked too
22 Jan 2010 22:50:26 < tomoj> lindar: going back in time?
22 Jan 2010 22:50:37 < Hugglesworth> lindar's not here man
22 Jan 2010 22:50:43 < tomoj> oh, darn
22 Jan 2010 22:51:59 < vensa> Hugglesworth: where are you coming from. the se switches x1 with x2. the te then switches x1 (wich is x2) with x3 so you get: x3 x1 x2 x4 x5
22 Jan 2010 22:52:01 < donri> dukse loka za'e dekna'adetri fali bino
22 Jan 2010 22:52:32 < Hugglesworth> woa... it goes right -> left?
22 Jan 2010 22:52:34 < Hugglesworth> shit
22 Jan 2010 22:52:48 < vensa> yeah.. just came across it in the CLL
22 Jan 2010 22:53:00 < vensa> it's parsed, inner to outer
22 Jan 2010 22:53:20 < Hugglesworth> fuck me
22 Jan 2010 22:53:31 < Hugglesworth> I'll have to remember that
22 Jan 2010 22:53:47 < vensa> you'll probably never see it again, unless tlaking to me :p
22 Jan 2010 22:54:13 < Hugglesworth> I guess that makes sense
22 Jan 2010 22:55:08 < vensa> donri: nice attempt... however I'm wondering... is the concept of dukse\excess really the proper transaltion for the colloquial "so"?
22 Jan 2010 22:56:03 < vensa> what does "so" actually mean? I think it means: "extremely similar to X"
22 Jan 2010 22:56:56 < vensa> problem is you can say it in too ways: cinical and serious. "you are so beautiful" <-- compliment. "that is SO 80's" (with intonation on the SO) <-- maybe should require a "zo'o"... (?)
22 Jan 2010 22:57:33 < tomoj> well, those are different
22 Jan 2010 22:57:52 < tomoj> "in this is SO 80's", is 80's a noun?
22 Jan 2010 22:58:01 < tomoj> or an adjective?
22 Jan 2010 22:58:03 < vensa> ummm....
22 Jan 2010 22:58:08 < vensa> let's try a simpler exaMPLE
22 Jan 2010 22:58:14 < donri> melo'e dekna'adetri befali bino
22 Jan 2010 22:58:25 < vensa> I am SO wasted
22 Jan 2010 22:58:34 < tomoj> ok
22 Jan 2010 22:58:39 < tomoj> I think excessive works well
22 Jan 2010 22:58:50 < donri> na'o dekna'adetri fali bino
22 Jan 2010 22:58:54 < tomoj> you can stress that gismu perhaps
22 Jan 2010 22:59:03 < donri> wait, na'o is tense
22 Jan 2010 22:59:06 < vensa> I think u need some kind of attitudinal
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22 Jan 2010 23:00:02 < donri> uhm, {uenai} "expected" -> "typical" -> "*SO* ..."
22 Jan 2010 23:00:11 < tomoj> sure, an attitudinal would be nice
22 Jan 2010 23:00:22 < tomoj> especially when typing
22 Jan 2010 23:00:33 < vensa> hmmm nice proposition donri
22 Jan 2010 23:00:50 < donri> in "so beautiful" i think it's just a case of {mutce filoka}
22 Jan 2010 23:00:55 < tomoj> if you're actually talking, there's no rule that you have to spell everything out instead of emphasizing words or using intonation, right?
22 Jan 2010 23:01:19 < donri> huh
22 Jan 2010 23:01:22 < vensa> tomoj: I think you still better not
22 Jan 2010 23:01:28 < vensa> there miht be some computers listening :)
22 Jan 2010 23:01:31 < donri> wait, what are you saying
22 Jan 2010 23:01:50 < vensa> or someone typing the protocol :)
22 Jan 2010 23:02:02 < donri> lojban has (mostly) audio/visual isomorphism
22 Jan 2010 23:02:10 < donri> big words ftw
22 Jan 2010 23:02:23 < tomoj> donri: if I'm talking out loud, can't I say "mi MUTCE xalbebna" or whatever
22 Jan 2010 23:02:33 < tomoj> making mutce louder and longer like we do in english
22 Jan 2010 23:02:38 < tomoj> instead of spelling it out in lojban?
22 Jan 2010 23:02:49 < donri> sure. *muTCE* and *MUTce* is still different, albeit both emphasised
22 Jan 2010 23:02:50 < vensa> that's called secondary emphasis
22 Jan 2010 23:03:02 < vensa> you can do that
22 Jan 2010 23:03:11 < tomoj> I mean, we can appeal to context, why can't we appeal to changes in sound that lojban doesn't care about
22 Jan 2010 23:03:12 < donri> we have ba'e for explicit emphasis
22 Jan 2010 23:03:14 < vensa> it just doesn't parse
22 Jan 2010 23:03:24 < donri> mi ba'e mutce cinpa'i do
22 Jan 2010 23:03:35 < tomoj> right, I know we can do everything explicitly, but I'm wondering if it's bad not to
22 Jan 2010 23:04:18 < donri> i don't think we can completely eliminate revealing emotion implicitly in speech
22 Jan 2010 23:04:20 < vensa> I think it depends... if you're in "court" and you know you';re being transcribed and you want you're meaning to be understood unambiguosly. you would avoid intonation totally
22 Jan 2010 23:04:40 < tomoj> right
22 Jan 2010 23:04:44 < vensa> if you're in a social conversation, of course intotation will come out even unwillingly
22 Jan 2010 23:04:45 < donri> if the emotion is important enough that you'd write a smiley or stars-for-emphasis on IRC, do be explicit in spoken lojban
22 Jan 2010 23:04:50 < tomoj> or maybe there is some way of matching intonation to the explicit lojban markers
22 Jan 2010 23:04:51 < donri> e.g. use ba'e or an attitudinal.
22 Jan 2010 23:05:22 < tomoj> yeah, that's pretty cool
22 Jan 2010 23:06:00 < tomoj> explicit words for marking emotion rather than (culturally-specific ?) intonation
22 Jan 2010 23:06:04 < donri> but if it is merely the unavoidable omnipresent emotion-in-nonmechanical-speech, we can probably live with it.
22 Jan 2010 23:06:17 < tomoj> huh
22 Jan 2010 23:06:24 < tomoj> I mean, yeah
22 Jan 2010 23:06:41 < tomoj> I wonder if everyone spoke lojban if I would still sound like a robot
22 Jan 2010 23:06:44 < donri> read what i say linearly to make sense, we're talking at once lol.
22 Jan 2010 23:06:58 < donri> two potential ADHD's going at it, wie.
22 Jan 2010 23:07:16 < tomoj> I understood
22 Jan 2010 23:07:19 < donri> :D
22 Jan 2010 23:07:27 < tomoj> slowly..
22 Jan 2010 23:08:53 < vensa> is there a lojban word for "eventually"?
22 Jan 2010 23:09:06 < tomoj> hmm, surely
22 Jan 2010 23:09:13 < vensa> mi ba co'e "eventually"
22 Jan 2010 23:09:20 < donri> i think it's quite interesting and fantastic that we've developed ways to express the important emotions over short text messages (outside of lojban)
22 Jan 2010 23:10:04 < vensa> donri: sure is. think of all the "SMS misunderstandings" that could be avoided between you and you're gf\bf if you both spoke lojban
22 Jan 2010 23:10:33 < donri> no, that's not what i'm saying
22 Jan 2010 23:10:54 < vensa> oh,,, well i think its nice anyway
22 Jan 2010 23:11:05 < tomoj> hmm
22 Jan 2010 23:11:12 < tomoj> I'm sure there was something I saw that would be good for "eventually"
22 Jan 2010 23:11:15 < tomoj> having trouble finding it now
22 Jan 2010 23:11:18 < donri> i'm saying... they say body language is like 80% of communication (well, a lot at least)
22 Jan 2010 23:11:26 < donri> in books, they solve it with detailed descriptions
22 Jan 2010 23:11:28 < tomoj> my lojban is shrinking
22 Jan 2010 23:11:38 < donri> i think the evolution on internet with smileys and whatnot is quite fantastic
22 Jan 2010 23:11:38 < tomoj> hmm
22 Jan 2010 23:11:48 < vensa> oh... I C
22 Jan 2010 23:11:52 < tomoj> body language etc are not always consciously broadcast etc
22 Jan 2010 23:12:03 < tomoj> so in a sense I think "body language" is kind of a misleading name
22 Jan 2010 23:12:08 < vensa> I still thinks that eloquent book descriptions are much more "stimulating" and "poetic"
22 Jan 2010 23:12:11 < donri> perhaps, but i often write smilies instinctively, reflexively
22 Jan 2010 23:12:17 < tomoj> sure it's a language, but it's not like that
22 Jan 2010 23:12:34 < tomoj> imagine your computer talking without you telling it to to some other server, like contacting apple for updates
22 Jan 2010 23:12:46 < vensa> tomoj: it's the language of truth becuz you're body doesn't lie... unless you're really good at it
22 Jan 2010 23:12:50 < tomoj> when your computer sent that message using, say, XML, it's "XML language"
22 Jan 2010 23:13:05 < tomoj> you (or the computer) is "communicating" with "XML language"
22 Jan 2010 23:13:06 < donri> some five youtube videos later and firefox hangs. of course. <3 flash
22 Jan 2010 23:13:10 < CodeBlock> coi rodo .i mi tatpi .u'i
22 Jan 2010 23:13:20 < vensa> coi la'oi CodeBlock
22 Jan 2010 23:13:21 < tomoj> but when I "say" something with body language
22 Jan 2010 23:13:26 < tomoj> I don't think I'm actually saying anything
22 Jan 2010 23:13:29 < donri> it's effing 2010, can we solve crashy software already
22 Jan 2010 23:13:43 < tomoj> it's not a speech act unless I wilfully say it
22 Jan 2010 23:14:05 < vensa> tomoj: it's still "saying" something. whether you want it to or not
22 Jan 2010 23:14:13 < tomoj> yes, but I'm not saying anything
22 Jan 2010 23:14:30 < tomoj> at least not in the same sense of "say" that I say "hello, how are you"
22 Jan 2010 23:14:33 < vensa> like when you go up to a girl to ask her out and exhibit all the body-language of someone who's shy. you're "saying" something between the lines
22 Jan 2010 23:14:39 < tomoj> right
22 Jan 2010 23:14:47 < vensa> not in the same sense
22 Jan 2010 23:14:56 < tomoj> but if it's a speech act, the thing acting is much different from the thing acting when I say "hello"
22 Jan 2010 23:14:56 < vensa> but it gets A message accross
22 Jan 2010 23:15:02 < vensa> the girl understands you're nervous
22 Jan 2010 23:15:06 < tomoj> yep
22 Jan 2010 23:15:15 < vensa> I agree
22 Jan 2010 23:15:21 < tomoj> I think the only things that strictly qualify as "speech acts" are messages that are intended to be received
22 Jan 2010 23:15:28 < vensa> it's a lower level kind of "message"
22 Jan 2010 23:15:31 < tomoj> yeah
22 Jan 2010 23:15:42 < vensa> tomoj: what about turret? :P
22 Jan 2010 23:15:43 < tomoj> it's like, your application may be sending messages
22 Jan 2010 23:15:49 < tomoj> and in doing so the OS needs to send some messages
22 Jan 2010 23:15:57 < tomoj> in a sense, the application is sending these messages
22 Jan 2010 23:15:58 < vensa> half of the time I dont Intend what I say :P
22 Jan 2010 23:16:20 < tomoj> but the application itself is not strictly communicating these messages, rather the lower-level system which is part of the application
22 Jan 2010 23:16:32 < vensa> hmmm
22 Jan 2010 23:16:37 < tomoj> vensa: dunno what turret is
22 Jan 2010 23:16:51 < vensa> it's a syndrome where someone blurts out phrases automatically
22 Jan 2010 23:17:00 < vensa> without control
22 Jan 2010 23:17:18 < tomoj> ah, yes
22 Jan 2010 23:17:21 < tomoj> good example
22 Jan 2010 23:17:28 < vensa> so is that "not speech"?
22 Jan 2010 23:17:40 < tomoj> I think our language systems are a lot more complex than we usually think
22 Jan 2010 23:18:01 < tomoj> people usually think they are "of their own free will" deliberately picking the words to say
22 Jan 2010 23:18:02 < vensa> of course they're complex. I for one never underestimated them
22 Jan 2010 23:18:20 < tomoj> that's sort of "how it feels" maybe
22 Jan 2010 23:18:26 < tomoj> if you don't think about it much
22 Jan 2010 23:18:38 < vensa> (but?)
22 Jan 2010 23:19:06 < tomoj> the model I like the most is something like "homuncular functionalism"
22 Jan 2010 23:19:31 < tomoj> the language system is really a bunch of smaller systems which are made up themselves of a bunch of smaller systems
22 Jan 2010 23:19:33 < tomoj> etc
22 Jan 2010 23:19:56 < vensa> huh? I'm losing you... going to lookup homuncular
22 Jan 2010 23:20:02 < tomoj> and I sometimes like even eliminative materialism
22 Jan 2010 23:20:10 < vensa> wtf
22 Jan 2010 23:20:16 < tomoj> as in, the processes we usually think of as speech don't actually exist
22 Jan 2010 23:20:25 -!- Hugglesworth is now known as Huggles_sipna
22 Jan 2010 23:20:27 < Huggles_sipna> co'o
22 Jan 2010 23:20:36 < tomoj> they are just bad models (like copernican astronomy) of a system
22 Jan 2010 23:20:57 < tomoj> by "speech" I mean the cognitive processes, not the physical production of sound
22 Jan 2010 23:21:06 < vensa> co'o Huggles (u still didnt answer me :))
22 Jan 2010 23:21:40 < vensa> tomoj: I think I'm losing the point that ur trying to make... what was the original question again?
22 Jan 2010 23:22:04 < tomoj> the original question was whether "body language" is the same kind of language as the language we're communicating in now
22 Jan 2010 23:22:25 < tomoj> rather, whether putative "speech acts" in body language are speech acts in the same sense as these hre
22 Jan 2010 23:22:28 < tomoj> s/hre/here/
22 Jan 2010 23:22:49 < tomoj> that and turrets introduces some tension on the idea of volition
22 Jan 2010 23:22:59 < vensa> I think they're "speech acts" but on a less conciuos level
22 Jan 2010 23:23:11 < tomoj> because a difference between these kinds of "speech acts", it seems, is that turrets etc aren't willfully "spoken"
22 Jan 2010 23:23:13 < tomoj> yeah, exactly
22 Jan 2010 23:23:18 < vensa> just like turret syndrome is a "speech act on a less concious level"
22 Jan 2010 23:23:29 < tomoj> and that fits perfectly well into homuncular functionalism
22 Jan 2010 23:23:34 < vensa> cool
22 Jan 2010 23:23:38 < vensa> whatever that is
22 Jan 2010 23:23:51 < Huggles_sipna> vensa: noda .i mi na klama
22 Jan 2010 23:23:54 < tomoj> the idea is that big cognitive systems like our natural language processes are actually composed of a bunch of smaller, "less conscious" systems
22 Jan 2010 23:24:10 < donri> tourette's, and choprolalia is rare in tourette's sufferers (10%)
22 Jan 2010 23:24:11 < vensa> Huggles: I meant it in the context of "where are you from, in general"
22 Jan 2010 23:24:35 < Huggles_sipna> do zvati ma?
22 Jan 2010 23:24:41 < tomoj> and perhaps, the concepts we normally use to think about these systems are totally wrong
22 Jan 2010 23:24:46 < donri> (and not necessarily symptomatic of tourette's.)
22 Jan 2010 23:24:49 < vensa> huggles: yeah, just wanted a creative way to say it
22 Jan 2010 23:24:50 < tomoj> and so "thoughts" etc might not really exist
22 Jan 2010 23:24:53 < Huggles_sipna> la'oi Lethbridge
22 Jan 2010 23:25:00 < Huggles_sipna> a bit malgli though
22 Jan 2010 23:25:11 < vensa> where;s that?
22 Jan 2010 23:25:14 < Huggles_sipna> Great White North
22 Jan 2010 23:25:22 < vensa> huh?
22 Jan 2010 23:25:27 < vensa> canada?
22 Jan 2010 23:25:29 < Huggles_sipna> Canada eh.
22 Jan 2010 23:25:30 < vensa> norway?
22 Jan 2010 23:25:32 < vensa> oh
22 Jan 2010 23:25:36 < vensa> cool
22 Jan 2010 23:25:48 < tomoj> of course they say that eliminative materialism is self-defeating :(
22 Jan 2010 23:26:30 < vensa> good night
22 Jan 2010 23:26:48 < Huggles_sipna> ki'e
22 Jan 2010 23:26:58 < vensa> ko se pluka lo nicte
22 Jan 2010 23:42:31 < vensa> xu roqa pu ba'o sipna binxo
22 Jan 2010 23:59:38 < vensa> {roqa=>rodo'ua}
23 Jan 2010 00:04:51 -!- ThirtySeconds [n=30@S010600226b4f6b52.cc.shawcable.net] has left #lojban ["Another drug turns harmless people into wild beasts"]
23 Jan 2010 00:09:44 < CodeBlock> is it appropriate to use "h" in places where ' can not be used? Such as in programming if I wanted to name a variable "author" (but lojban ci'arfi'i) would I name it ciharfihi?
23 Jan 2010 00:09:46 < CodeBlock> or what
23 Jan 2010 00:11:59 < vensa> ummm
23 Jan 2010 00:12:18 < vensa> since when have programming-variable-names taken "precisely" after any language in particulat?
23 Jan 2010 00:12:27 < vensa> that's "coding standards" domain
23 Jan 2010 00:12:32 < CodeBlock> vensa: bleh example
23 Jan 2010 00:12:49 < CodeBlock> vensa: in any case where ' can not be used, is h acceptable or what should be used in place?
23 Jan 2010 00:12:54 < vensa> is "m_sRemark" really enlglish?
23 Jan 2010 00:13:03 < CodeBlock> vensa: you're missing my point :P
23 Jan 2010 00:13:40 < vensa> CodeBlock: lojban isn't interestedin "a specific programming language that doesn't permit y'y in variable names
23 Jan 2010 00:13:53 < vensa> just do whatever you want
23 Jan 2010 00:14:03 < vensa> using "h" seems like a pretty goos alternative
23 Jan 2010 00:14:14 < vensa> after all, it IS used in the selmaho names
23 Jan 2010 00:14:30 < vensa> "GAhO" etc
23 Jan 2010 00:14:55 < CodeBlock> hmm.
23 Jan 2010 00:15:43 < CodeBlock> vensa: heh ok - was just curious, i wasn't asking specifically for programming that was more a handy example, but ok
23 Jan 2010 00:15:46 < CodeBlock> makes sense
23 Jan 2010 00:15:48 < vensa> the resemblence between latin letterals and lojban phonemes is anyway "coincidental" and meant for "convenience only
23 Jan 2010 00:16:08 < vensa> they could have been expressed with arabic letters
23 Jan 2010 00:16:14 < vensa> what would you do then?
23 Jan 2010 00:16:21 < CodeBlock> XD
23 Jan 2010 00:16:27 < vensa> btw: there is also a set of proposal "purely lojbanic" letterals
23 Jan 2010 00:16:34 < vensa> lindar has a vid about this on utube
23 Jan 2010 00:17:09 < vensa> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqdNNKJ1nvY
23 Jan 2010 00:18:30 < CodeBlock> ok *watches it*
23 Jan 2010 00:23:50 < vensa> btw: I havent actuallyt watched it myself (becuz of the sound problems and my laptop's sound limit problem)..... also: I think it's not an "official lojban script" persay, just an alternative using "elian" script which is a concept that has nothing to do with lojban specifically
23 Jan 2010 00:24:19 < vensa> just to broaden your horizon that the latin alphabet is not mandatory
23 Jan 2010 00:24:59 < CodeBlock> vensa: oh I know it's not
23 Jan 2010 00:25:10 < vensa> cool
23 Jan 2010 00:25:19 < CodeBlock> vensa: but I was asking just because I'm new to lojban and was curious as to what to do in cases where you can't use '
23 Jan 2010 00:25:35 < CodeBlock> and I know they are few and far to come by (which is why I used the programming example)
23 Jan 2010 00:26:23 < vensa> well, I just thought you're question was "strange" becuz it's not really an "issue" IMO, since what's important is the "sound" not the "letter"
23 Jan 2010 00:26:49 < vensa> you could also say that you have a pure-arabic keyboard. what do you do?
23 Jan 2010 00:27:19 < vensa> try to get the "sound" across best you, while being most intuitively understood
23 Jan 2010 00:27:27 < vensa> at least that's my opinion
23 Jan 2010 00:28:00 < CodeBlock> vensa: well then what do you do in any case? Going back to the programming example- most if not all programming languages expect latin letters
23 Jan 2010 00:28:35 < vensa> well, obviously computers are too strict
23 Jan 2010 00:28:48 < vensa> I don't know. maybe I'm not understanding the question
23 Jan 2010 00:28:56 < vensa> maybe you already got your answer
23 Jan 2010 00:29:11 < vensa> btw: how deep are you into Lojban learnin?
23 Jan 2010 00:29:17 < CodeBlock> vensa: well you already answered the main question I was asking (by saying that h is fine)
23 Jan 2010 00:30:24 < CodeBlock> vensa: well I really like it and plan on continuing to learn it. You guys seem really cool (all of #lojban and #jbopre) and it just overall seems like a neat language
23 Jan 2010 00:30:56 < vensa> how are you intending to learn? are you doing some kind of online course?
23 Jan 2010 00:31:32 < CodeBlock> vensa: I've been following an online lesson set, yes. Also just watching (and talking) in here has taught me quite a bit :)
23 Jan 2010 00:31:59 < vensa> which lesson "set" are you referring to? the "wave" or just being in #ckule?
23 Jan 2010 00:32:09 < CodeBlock> vensa: I'm a hands-on learner more than anything, so actually getting involved by talking in here is the best way for me to learn
23 Jan 2010 00:32:24 < vensa> and what do you do when you don't know a word?
23 Jan 2010 00:32:26 < CodeBlock> vensa: nah, http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/
23 Jan 2010 00:32:45 < vensa> ohhh, L4B. why didnt u say so
23 Jan 2010 00:33:01 < vensa> so, you're learning the same way I did. what lesson are you at?
23 Jan 2010 00:33:06 < CodeBlock> vensa: i look it up, and if I still don't understand I ask
23 Jan 2010 00:33:18 < vensa> you familiar with "makfa", right?
23 Jan 2010 00:34:05 < CodeBlock> vensa: well I wasn't but a quick search of the db shows that it means magic/supernatural
23 Jan 2010 00:34:29 < vensa> "makfa" is an IRC bot in here that you can use as a dictionary lookup too :)
23 Jan 2010 00:34:42 < CodeBlock> or that XD
23 Jan 2010 00:35:00 < vensa> one of the simplest ways is /msg makfa q <word in lojban or english>
23 Jan 2010 00:35:17 < vensa> it's supposed to be the same definitions as in jbovlaste (if that's what you're currently using)
23 Jan 2010 00:35:50 < vensa> but makfa also has cool commands like "find --selmaho COI" which shows you all the cmavo in a specific gramatical group (you might find that handy later on)
23 Jan 2010 00:36:03 < CodeBlock> vensa: alright. I made a simple bot that uses the xml database, too, just for the heck of it.. Probably does not work as well as makfa though
23 Jan 2010 00:36:13 < vensa> cool
23 Jan 2010 00:36:29 < vensa> what is this XML DB you are referring to? (link)
23 Jan 2010 00:37:07 < CodeBlock> vensa: xml export of jbovlaste
23 Jan 2010 00:37:12 < vensa> ahh
23 Jan 2010 00:37:24 < vensa> cool. didn't know they had that
23 Jan 2010 00:37:42 < vensa> that could come in handy for a vbariety of programming projects
23 Jan 2010 00:37:43  * CodeBlock wants to port the xml db into a postgesql db and make his bot use that instead.
23 Jan 2010 00:37:47 < CodeBlock> vensa: indeed
23 Jan 2010 00:38:00 < vensa> so, what number lesson are you on in L4B?
23 Jan 2010 00:39:12 < CodeBlock> vensa: end of chapter 3, though I bounce around, and google when I have a question
23 Jan 2010 00:39:32 < CodeBlock> for example two days ago I didn't know about the lojban number system, so I googled around and got that question answered
23 Jan 2010 00:39:50 < vensa> he... I think that's just chapter 4 :)
23 Jan 2010 00:39:57 < CodeBlock> though I need to finish memorising the numbers
23 Jan 2010 00:40:09 < vensa> it is! :)
23 Jan 2010 00:40:17 < CodeBlock> haha
23 Jan 2010 00:40:24 < CodeBlock> vensa: see i'm already ahead of the game
23 Jan 2010 00:40:24 < vensa> that's a snatch.. only ten to memorize
23 Jan 2010 00:40:29 < vensa> it's not like french shit
23 Jan 2010 00:40:29 < CodeBlock> vensa: right
23 Jan 2010 00:40:51 < vensa> they go by "a e i o u"
23 Jan 2010 00:41:04 < vensa> so the second letter is easy
23 Jan 2010 00:41:17 < CodeBlock> vensa: oh wow, I didn't even realize that
23 Jan 2010 00:41:18 < CodeBlock> that's neat
23 Jan 2010 00:41:22 < vensa> pa re ci vo mu
23 Jan 2010 00:41:28 < vensa> xa ze bi so
23 Jan 2010 00:42:21 < vensa> the only exception is zero => {no}
23 Jan 2010 00:42:30 < vensa> making ten: "pano"
23 Jan 2010 00:43:27 < CodeBlock> right, they are combined... and then ki'o for 3 zeros
23 Jan 2010 00:43:50 < CodeBlock> and pai for pi
23 Jan 2010 00:43:50 < CodeBlock> :P
23 Jan 2010 00:43:54 < CodeBlock> that one's easy
23 Jan 2010 00:43:59 < vensa> btw: if you had read the 4th lesson you would have realized that. that's why I think you're better off going by the book - at least for learning grammar. as for vocabulary, the best way is probably to speak in here
23 Jan 2010 00:46:29 < vensa> anyway, can I talk to you in lojban?
23 Jan 2010 00:47:20 < CodeBlock> vensa: sure :)
23 Jan 2010 00:47:25 < CodeBlock> though i'm going to sleep soon
23 Jan 2010 00:47:37 < vensa> ok
23 Jan 2010 00:47:57 < vensa> xu do ta'e sampla
23 Jan 2010 00:48:46 < CodeBlock> vensa: "are you currently programming?" (i don't want to answer the wrong question =P)
23 Jan 2010 00:49:19 < vensa> actually, I specifically used "ta'e" to avoid that interpretation
23 Jan 2010 00:49:26 < vensa> if I had just asked "xu do sampla"
23 Jan 2010 00:49:35 < vensa> you might think I'm referring to "at the moment"
23 Jan 2010 00:49:36 < CodeBlock> vensa: well i'm not sure about ta'e yet :P
23 Jan 2010 00:49:40 < vensa> just becuz I'm not specific enough
23 Jan 2010 00:49:48 < vensa> ta'e means "habitually"
23 Jan 2010 00:50:12 < CodeBlock> ah ok :P
23 Jan 2010 00:50:12 < vensa> do you "habitually"\"usually" program? not necessarily right now or at a specific time
23 Jan 2010 00:50:17 < CodeBlock> go'i
23 Jan 2010 00:50:22 < vensa> ua
23 Jan 2010 00:50:49 < vensa> do sampla bau ma
23 Jan 2010 00:51:31 < CodeBlock> vensa: ok, next question how do you do lists in lojban :P
23 Jan 2010 00:51:41 < CodeBlock> in english, it's comma-separated
23 Jan 2010 00:51:53 < vensa> you could say: la XXX .e la BBB .e la CCC
23 Jan 2010 00:51:58 < vensa> .e is the "sumti and"
23 Jan 2010 00:52:10 < CodeBlock> yeah but I was assuming there was a better way :P
23 Jan 2010 00:52:30 < vensa> define "better"?
23 Jan 2010 00:52:51 < CodeBlock> vensa: something like the english comma, but more.. "lojbanic" ;)
23 Jan 2010 00:53:09 < vensa> an english comma is very ambiguos
23 Jan 2010 00:53:20 < vensa> the lojban .e is just as short and means "and"
23 Jan 2010 00:53:22 < CodeBlock> vensa: so all lists in lojban are just ".e"-separated?
23 Jan 2010 00:53:29 < vensa> not necessarily
23 Jan 2010 00:53:49 < vensa> depends how you want to say what the relation betweens the items of the list is
23 Jan 2010 00:53:54 < CodeBlock> vensa: care to elaborate or should I just wait till I get to that in the book
23 Jan 2010 00:54:10 < vensa> I'll give you one more example
23 Jan 2010 00:54:22 < vensa> you could also say: la XXX joi la BBB joi la CCC
23 Jan 2010 00:54:40 < vensa> joi groups things together to one unit
23 Jan 2010 00:54:54 < CodeBlock> ah ok
23 Jan 2010 00:54:57 < vensa> so actually that would mean that you program in a language that is a mixture of XXX BBB and CCC all at the same time
23 Jan 2010 00:55:13 < CodeBlock> hah, ok XD
23 Jan 2010 00:55:40 < vensa> sadly you'll have to "wait" till lesson 11
23 Jan 2010 00:56:03 < vensa> but .e and joi are the most common anyway
23 Jan 2010 00:56:49 < CodeBlock> mi sampla bau la'oi php .e la'oi perl .e la'oi .ruby .e la'oi python kansa la'oi django
23 Jan 2010 00:57:42 < CodeBlock> lakne tolmo'i so'o
23 Jan 2010 00:58:37 < vensa> the "kansa" part was ungramatical
23 Jan 2010 00:59:31 < vensa> also I would use "la'a" instead of "lanke" there
23 Jan 2010 00:59:59 < vensa> but that's also advanced
23 Jan 2010 01:00:02 < CodeBlock> vensa: well... la'oi python .e le la'oi python la'oi django termonsi'o  (python and python's django framework)
23 Jan 2010 01:00:17 < vensa> so for a beginner - at least I understood you. which really is the most imopirtant part IMO :)
23 Jan 2010 01:00:25 < CodeBlock> vensa: :D
23 Jan 2010 01:00:35 < vensa> that's still ungramatical
23 Jan 2010 01:00:42 < vensa> maybe use "pe"
23 Jan 2010 01:01:03 < CodeBlock> hm :/
23 Jan 2010 01:01:30 < vensa> la'oi python pe la'oi django
23 Jan 2010 01:01:44 < vensa> the python associated with django
23 Jan 2010 01:01:55 < vensa> if you want to bring the word for framework into that it's more complicated
23 Jan 2010 01:02:07 < CodeBlock> :/
23 Jan 2010 01:02:41 < vensa> don't worry.. just settle for simple concepts for now
23 Jan 2010 01:03:08 < vensa> as you get better and better at lojban you'll find ways to rephrase yourself in ways that are diff from colloquial english and are easier to put together in lojban
23 Jan 2010 01:03:34 < CodeBlock> vensa: ah, yeah that'll be good :P
23 Jan 2010 01:04:02 < CodeBlock> i really do like lojban so far though. I just need to learn more but that comes with time (and reading)
23 Jan 2010 01:04:36 < vensa> yep. don't try to learn everything all at once
23 Jan 2010 01:04:44 < vensa> you'll just end up forgetting more than you learn :)
23 Jan 2010 01:04:57 < CodeBlock> vensa: as I said last night, I appreciate you pointing out my mistakes though, because we learn from our failures so each time you point it out i'm learning more lojban which rocks :P
23 Jan 2010 01:05:29 < vensa> my pleasure (I love pointing out other's weaknesses :) jk)
23 Jan 2010 01:05:42 < CodeBlock> .u'i
23 Jan 2010 01:06:34 < vensa> xu do ta'e gunka lonu sampla
23 Jan 2010 01:07:37 < CodeBlock> eep, lonu isn't in the db :(
23 Jan 2010 01:07:48 < vensa> it's "lo nu"
23 Jan 2010 01:07:51 < vensa> we usually join them
23 Jan 2010 01:08:06 < CodeBlock> ah.
23 Jan 2010 01:08:07 < vensa> it means, in a very weak transaltion: "an event of XXX"
23 Jan 2010 01:08:14 < vensa> in this case "an event of programming"
23 Jan 2010 01:08:36 < vensa> but, that's really something you should learn from the course IMO. if I'll explain it I'll just mislead you
23 Jan 2010 01:08:57 < vensa> btw: perhaps I would have better phrased my question as:
23 Jan 2010 01:09:05 < vensa> xu lenu sampla cu jibri do
23 Jan 2010 01:09:47 < CodeBlock> are you basically asking if I do programming for a living? :P
23 Jan 2010 01:09:52 < vensa> yep
23 Jan 2010 01:09:56 < CodeBlock> ok XD
23 Jan 2010 01:10:13 < vensa> yes-no the-event-of programming is-a-job of-you
23 Jan 2010 01:10:53 < vensa> the first one was: yes-no you habitually work-on an-event-of programming
23 Jan 2010 01:11:18 < vensa> but that could well mean that you "work" on programming as a fulltime hobby :)
23 Jan 2010 01:11:18 < CodeBlock> vensa: na go'i .i mi co'e selpu'a  << yeah that's probably way off, but I meant to say "no, I do it for enjoyment"
23 Jan 2010 01:12:16 < CodeBlock> vensa: was I somewhat close?
23 Jan 2010 01:12:19 < vensa> actually. considering your level: that was a very good answer
23 Jan 2010 01:12:24 < vensa> it was gramatical
23 Jan 2010 01:12:29 < vensa> it was very vague
23 Jan 2010 01:12:36 < vensa> but it gets the point across in this context
23 Jan 2010 01:13:17 < CodeBlock> vensa: what would a better answer have been (from someone not as new as me :P)
23 Jan 2010 01:13:20 < vensa> next time don't translate immediately. let me try to translate what I understood from you and we;ll see if you got your point across
23 Jan 2010 01:14:03 < vensa> I don't want to put words in your mouth. I think it was a proper answer that even an expert may "choose" to use
23 Jan 2010 01:14:42 < vensa> it's just that "selpu'a" expects a sumti
23 Jan 2010 01:14:50 < vensa> (who is the act pleasing)
23 Jan 2010 01:15:13 < vensa> since you didn;t specify, in context I assume you mean "self pleasing"
23 Jan 2010 01:15:52 < vensa> co'e is also very vague. but I got what you meant from context
23 Jan 2010 01:16:15 < CodeBlock> hm
23 Jan 2010 01:16:39 < vensa> that less vague claim would be: lenu mi sampla cu pluka mi
23 Jan 2010 01:17:24 < vensa> that seems less like a straightforward translation from english
23 Jan 2010 01:17:48 < CodeBlock> vensa: ah, alright that makes sense
23 Jan 2010 01:18:04 < vensa> tu'a do nanca ma
23 Jan 2010 01:19:42 < CodeBlock> ji'i vo nanca
23 Jan 2010 01:19:48 < CodeBlock> if i got the question right
23 Jan 2010 01:20:01 < vensa> hmmm
23 Jan 2010 01:20:12 < vensa> my question was vague...
23 Jan 2010 01:20:13 < CodeBlock> vensa: were you asking how long I've been programming?
23 Jan 2010 01:20:16 < vensa> let me rephrase
23 Jan 2010 01:20:18 < CodeBlock> or what year I started
23 Jan 2010 01:20:23 < donri> what specific event of you programming pleases you?
23 Jan 2010 01:20:26 < vensa> ni'o tu'a do nanca ma
23 Jan 2010 01:20:40 < donri> i suggest {lonu} or {lo'enu}
23 Jan 2010 01:21:01 < vensa> lo'enu IS better
23 Jan 2010 01:21:15 < vensa> but let's not overkill the poor soul
23 Jan 2010 01:22:10 < vensa> CodeBlock: "on a different topic, something-about-you is-x-years-in-duration how-many?"
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23 Jan 2010 01:22:24 < lindar> ~_______________~
23 Jan 2010 01:22:47 < donri> _______~________
23 Jan 2010 01:23:04 < lindar> Face.
23 Jan 2010 01:23:08 < CodeBlock> vensa: ah, you're asking my age :P
23 Jan 2010 01:23:12 < vensa> yep :)
23 Jan 2010 01:23:15 < donri> Pace.
23 Jan 2010 01:23:19 < lindar> donri, stop choosing to be gay.
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23 Jan 2010 01:23:41 < CodeBlock> vensa: paze
23 Jan 2010 01:23:43 < donri> you're too late, i discovered mild bisexuality yesterday.
23 Jan 2010 01:23:54 < CodeBlock> coi .lindar.
23 Jan 2010 01:23:56 < vensa> try "li paze"
23 Jan 2010 01:23:57 < lindar> xD
23 Jan 2010 01:24:08  * lindar high-fives!
23 Jan 2010 01:24:17 < CodeBlock> vensa: yeah that! :P
23 Jan 2010 01:24:22 < vensa> :)
23 Jan 2010 01:24:57 < vensa> so you've been programming since you hit puberty? :) odd coincidence
23 Jan 2010 01:25:12 < CodeBlock> you guys are great btw - thanks for being so willing to teach and so gentle with newcomers like myself :D
23 Jan 2010 01:25:45 < CodeBlock> vensa: well I started dabbling with linux around 5 years ago, and started programming soon after... so i'd say somewhere between 4 and 5 years
23 Jan 2010 01:26:35 < CodeBlock> plan on majoring in something with computers after high school - probably computer science
23 Jan 2010 01:26:40 < lindar> xD @ gentle with newcomers.
23 Jan 2010 01:26:49 < CodeBlock> lindar: seriously, you guys rock :P
23 Jan 2010 01:26:58 < lindar> I know we do, but we're all mean teachers.
23 Jan 2010 01:26:58 < vensa> lindar is the most gentle of us all
23 Jan 2010 01:27:04 < lindar> Just ask vensa. =P
23 Jan 2010 01:27:04 < vensa> he is so nurturing and caring
23 Jan 2010 01:27:09 < CodeBlock> vensa: haha
23 Jan 2010 01:27:14 < vensa> like a fluffy white mother bear
23 Jan 2010 01:27:19 < lindar> OH! I was meaning to tell you something!
23 Jan 2010 01:27:31 < lindar> I had a thought that allows you to say what it is you wanted to say without it being retarded.
23 Jan 2010 01:27:42 < lindar> A -time specific- version of ti/ta/tu.
23 Jan 2010 01:27:56 < vensa> I;m flattered that you are so consumed by my idea :)
23 Jan 2010 01:28:07 < vensa> actually, I read it yesterday in the scroll-back
23 Jan 2010 01:28:18 < vensa> I think it's cool
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23 Jan 2010 01:28:31 < vensa> and I understand it alread y exists in the grammar (?)
23 Jan 2010 01:28:47 < CodeBlock> vensa: well I'm going to go read a section or two of the book then head to bed. Will be back for more "training" tomorrow :P
23 Jan 2010 01:29:10 < lindar> X - zo'e pe ca, Y - zo'e pe puzi, Z - zo'e pe pu
23 Jan 2010 01:29:11 < vensa> ko se pluka lo nicte doi la'oi CodeBlock
23 Jan 2010 01:29:29 < lindar> ko pluka co'e
23 Jan 2010 01:29:36 < vensa> yeah.. I thing you can also nest it before the sumti like so:
23 Jan 2010 01:29:48 < vensa> le bazi se sanga cu pluka mi
23 Jan 2010 01:30:20 < CodeBlock> co'o la .lindar. .e la'oi vensa
23 Jan 2010 01:30:24 < CodeBlock> .ui
23 Jan 2010 01:30:26 < lindar> co'o
23 Jan 2010 01:30:29 < vensa> the song that was playing a short time ago is (at some time) pleasing to me
23 Jan 2010 01:30:33 < vensa> co'o
23 Jan 2010 01:30:38 < lindar> Uhhh... you've got it backwards.
23 Jan 2010 01:30:56 < vensa> oops
23 Jan 2010 01:30:58 < vensa> puzi
23 Jan 2010 01:31:03 < lindar> That sounds more like "The song that's about to play." or "Whatever song is about to play next.". =P
23 Jan 2010 01:31:10 < vensa> hey, maybe I'm psychic!
23 Jan 2010 01:31:21 < vensa> dont judge me
23 Jan 2010 01:31:23 < vensa> :P
23 Jan 2010 01:31:55 < vensa> I still don;t get how that solves the "girl-picture-of-a-girl" paradox
23 Jan 2010 01:33:01 < lindar> Think about it. Wouldn't it be strange to refer to something just sitting there by a pro-sumti that implies some kind of event?
23 Jan 2010 01:33:21 < vensa> huh?
23 Jan 2010 01:33:23 < vensa> example please
23 Jan 2010 01:33:43 < vensa> of a sentence
23 Jan 2010 01:34:17 < lindar> Hell, you could probably even say {.i zi ti pluka mi}
23 Jan 2010 01:34:40 < vensa> huh? what would that mean?
23 Jan 2010 01:34:53 < vensa> the thing that was just here where I'm pointing?
23 Jan 2010 01:35:29 < lindar> Not quite the correct meaning. =P
23 Jan 2010 01:35:34 < vensa> right
23 Jan 2010 01:35:34 < lindar> I think I'm a little off.
23 Jan 2010 01:35:40 < vensa> you didnt say ba or pu
23 Jan 2010 01:36:00 < vensa> so perhaps you mean, the thing that is\will be around the spot where I'm pointing
23 Jan 2010 01:36:12 < vensa> or "the thing that's moving around the spot that I'm pointing"?
23 Jan 2010 01:36:17 < vensa> i.e. inatimate?
23 Jan 2010 01:36:22 < vensa> is that your intention?
23 Jan 2010 01:36:32 < lindar> No, not at all.
23 Jan 2010 01:36:39 < vensa> oh.... sorry
23 Jan 2010 01:36:42 < vensa> then explain yourself
23 Jan 2010 01:37:54 < lindar> For example, a song plays on somebody's laptop. {.i .ua mi nelci X} where X is whatever this word is. It's obvious because it has to do with time tense "this currently happening thing" that I'm not talking about the laptop, because the laptop isn't something actively happening.
23 Jan 2010 01:38:11 < lindar> It's still not perfect as I could be talking about how nice the speakers sound, but still...
23 Jan 2010 01:38:32 < vensa> X is your new word?
23 Jan 2010 01:38:34 < lindar> The practical upshot is that it would be obvious that I'm talking about something that is presently happening, which narrows it down.
23 Jan 2010 01:38:49 < lindar> I'm not giving it a retarded variable that begins with a vaginal fricative.
23 Jan 2010 01:39:17 < vensa> whats wrong with: "mi nelci le vi da"
23 Jan 2010 01:39:40 < lindar> It's not grammatical?
23 Jan 2010 01:40:14 < vensa> mi nelci vi da
23 Jan 2010 01:40:31 < lindar> The part that should appeal to you is that it should be obvious that the person that just spoke could be referred to by this word, and a girl standing next to a painting could be referred to because she's acting and the painting isn't.
23 Jan 2010 01:40:38 < lindar> ...and vi isn't a time tense.
23 Jan 2010 01:41:20 < vensa> mi nelci ca da
23 Jan 2010 01:41:25 < lindar> Nope.
23 Jan 2010 01:41:43 < lindar> You like *something* concurrent with a thing. *not grammatical*
23 Jan 2010 01:41:51 < vensa> I don;t get your drift with the painting
23 Jan 2010 01:42:02 < lindar> .i ko cilre fi lo sumtcita
23 Jan 2010 01:42:08 < vensa> first of all it is gramatical - check makfa
23 Jan 2010 01:42:18 < lindar> The painting isn't jumping up and fucking down.
23 Jan 2010 01:42:25 < vensa> so what?
23 Jan 2010 01:42:37 < vensa> I don't undersatnd your definition of X?
23 Jan 2010 01:42:41 < lindar> Whether or not it's grammatical, "mi nelci ca da" means "I like, which is concurrent with a thing."
23 Jan 2010 01:42:41 < vensa> is it something that's moving?
23 Jan 2010 01:42:56 < vensa> mi nelci le ca se sanga
23 Jan 2010 01:43:00 < vensa> means what?
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23 Jan 2010 01:43:35 < lindar> That means that you like the current song/chant/vocal melody.
23 Jan 2010 01:43:43 < vensa> ok
23 Jan 2010 01:43:59 < vensa> so now all you need is to say the same thing about something unspecific
23 Jan 2010 01:44:16 < lindar> what?
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23 Jan 2010 01:45:41 < vensa> mi nelci le ca co'e
23 Jan 2010 01:45:58 < vensa> => I like what's going on now
23 Jan 2010 01:46:04 < vensa> probably the song thats playing
23 Jan 2010 01:47:27 < vensa> isn't that your X?
23 Jan 2010 01:47:52 < lindar> Fantastic. You were the one griping about needing a word for people, and I came up with an idea that satisfies the Lojbanic attitude about grammatical gender and still gives you a simple cmavo to say what you mean (because objects can't really act, and this word essentially refers to actors with a time tense rather than objects being pointed at using a distance tense). So I'm trying to help you figure out how to get your cmavo worki
23 Jan 2010 01:47:52 < lindar> ng properly because I think the idea has merit, it's just your execution of said idea that's crap.
23 Jan 2010 01:48:32 < vensa> and I appreciate it
23 Jan 2010 01:48:47 < vensa> but I think we just found that the concept already exists in the grammar
23 Jan 2010 01:48:51 < lindar> So it means whatever your {qi} word is supposed to mean, but it focuses on capability of acting (a common terminology in lojban) and uses time tense as a referent to differentiate. =D
23 Jan 2010 01:48:55 < lindar> >_________<
23 Jan 2010 01:48:56 < vensa> we dont need a new word
23 Jan 2010 01:49:02 < lindar> -___________________-
23 Jan 2010 01:49:11 < lindar> Wasn't I trying to tell you this all yesterday and the day before?
23 Jan 2010 01:49:21 < vensa> wait
23 Jan 2010 01:49:38 < vensa> so do you accept mi "le ca co'e"?
23 Jan 2010 01:49:44 < lindar> Cos yesterday -I- was the one telling -you- that we already have a way to express what you want in the Lojban grammar.
23 Jan 2010 01:49:45 < vensa> {my}
23 Jan 2010 01:49:48 < lindar> >_<
23 Jan 2010 01:50:01 < lindar> Yes, {le ca co'e} is -perfectly- grammatical.
23 Jan 2010 01:50:08 < lindar> It's a current thing.
23 Jan 2010 01:50:20 < vensa> btw: I could also say "le ca co'e pe ti" and point at the girl
23 Jan 2010 01:51:48 < lindar> That would be confusing. "The current thing, which is associated with this thing here."
23 Jan 2010 01:52:26 < vensa> yeah.... scope it down to the current thing that's happening in a certain direction
23 Jan 2010 01:52:38 < vensa> the real problem I see is that "co'e" isn't an action
23 Jan 2010 01:52:45 < vensa> it could very well mean "being"
23 Jan 2010 01:52:54 < vensa> the thing that is currently being
23 Jan 2010 01:53:01 < vensa> => a tree?
23 Jan 2010 01:53:04 < vensa> a couch?
23 Jan 2010 01:53:25 < vensa> maybe we need to incorporate "nu" into this somehow
23 Jan 2010 01:53:35 < lindar> >_>
23 Jan 2010 01:54:00 < lindar> Not at all.
23 Jan 2010 01:54:43 < vensa> huh?
23 Jan 2010 01:55:24 < lindar> That wouldn't make any sense. [The current event of something being a girl][is-pleasant][to-me] {.i le ca nu co'e ku pluka mi}
23 Jan 2010 01:55:40 < vensa> why not?
23 Jan 2010 01:55:44 < vensa> makes perfect sense to me
23 Jan 2010 01:55:47 < lindar> Now you're saying that she's pretty because she's a girl, not because she's pretty.
23 Jan 2010 01:56:02 < vensa> less intuitive? less prone to be interpreted.. perhaps
23 Jan 2010 01:56:37 < vensa> I dont know
23 Jan 2010 01:56:47 < vensa> I didn't say I wanted to use nu like that
23 Jan 2010 01:56:55 < vensa> just that "co'"e doesnt express "Acting"
23 Jan 2010 01:57:00 < lindar> It comes off as "I'm attracted to women because they're women." and says nothing about the actual attractiveness/pleasantness of said girl(s).
23 Jan 2010 01:57:08 < lindar> Yes it does.
23 Jan 2010 01:57:17 < lindar> It expresses whatever the hell it wants. It's the generic selbri.
23 Jan 2010 01:57:18 < vensa> mi co'e
23 Jan 2010 01:57:22 < vensa> exactly
23 Jan 2010 01:57:38 < vensa> so it doesn't create a seperation between "happening things" and "being things"
23 Jan 2010 01:57:44 < lindar> Now we're passing into the realm of irrelevant bullshit where it would be easier to say "le ninmu".
23 Jan 2010 01:58:19 < lindar> The {ca} that sits there is context enough to determine that you mean something which acts in time, IMO.
23 Jan 2010 01:58:36 < vensa> hmm...... maybe
23 Jan 2010 01:59:22 < lindar> So you can continue to be worried about how to say, in the most minimalist fashion, something regarding the fourteen monkeys carrying a piano filled with salt, or you could just be practical about things. =D
23 Jan 2010 01:59:35 < vensa> fine
23 Jan 2010 01:59:38 < vensa> mi ca co'a citka
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23 Jan 2010 02:11:57 <@Broca> zo'e pe loi pa vo smani poi bevri lo pipno poi culno lo silna
23 Jan 2010 02:14:32 < lindar> loi pavo smani ku bevri lo culno be lo silna ku pipno
23 Jan 2010 02:14:49 < EnglisGent^sleep> morning folks :)
23 Jan 2010 02:14:56 -!- EnglisGent^sleep is now known as EnglishGent
23 Jan 2010 02:14:59 < lindar> Hullo hullo.
23 Jan 2010 02:15:03 < EnglishGent> hi lindar :)
23 Jan 2010 02:15:18 < lindar> o_O
23 Jan 2010 02:15:19 < EnglishGent> a quick question (occured to me last night as I was falling asleep)
23 Jan 2010 02:15:24  * EnglishGent quite new to lojban
23 Jan 2010 02:15:24 < lindar> Shoot.
23 Jan 2010 02:15:31  * lindar braces for impact.
23 Jan 2010 02:15:52 < EnglishGent> does 'dunda' give this-physical-thing
23 Jan 2010 02:16:02 < EnglishGent> or transfer-legal-ownership
23 Jan 2010 02:16:06 < lindar> o_O
23 Jan 2010 02:16:11 < EnglishGent> or could it be used for both?
23 Jan 2010 02:16:36 < lindar> Taken directly from the official definition: " the Lojban doesn't distinguish between or imply possession transfer or sharing "
23 Jan 2010 02:16:52 <@Broca> “x2 may be a specific object, a commodity (mass), an event, or a property”
23 Jan 2010 02:17:02 < EnglishGent> thanks :)
23 Jan 2010 02:17:22  * lindar is grateful for the decent question!
23 Jan 2010 02:17:37 < EnglishGent> um - how can you give someone an event? (slight bafflement)
23 Jan 2010 02:17:42  * EnglishGent goes to fetch a coffee - brb
23 Jan 2010 02:17:48  * EnglishGent *so* not a morning person1
23 Jan 2010 02:17:50 < EnglishGent> !
23 Jan 2010 02:17:56 < lindar> I'm just glad you didn't ask something like, "Okay, how do I use a sumpti with my lodge ban?". >_>
23 Jan 2010 02:18:37 < lindar> Yeah, I'm actually quite baffled by that as well. How do you give an event? I get all the other ones, just not that.
23 Jan 2010 02:19:12 < EnglishGent> back :)