24 Jan 2010 02:20:07 < timonator> try {do rinsa ma}
24 Jan 2010 02:20:20 < timonator> doi ma is more like "whom am i adressing?"
24 Jan 2010 02:20:32 < EnglishGent> both vensa - but having a lesson from xalbo has proved the best way of learning it (for me) so far :)
24 Jan 2010 02:20:46 < timonator> no surprise!
24 Jan 2010 02:20:51 < vensa> timonator. I see. why would anyone in their right mind want to ask such a question?
24 Jan 2010 02:20:56 < EnglishGent> and yes - I think I am - my foreign friends think I am a living cliche :)
24 Jan 2010 02:21:10 < vensa> :)
24 Jan 2010 02:21:36 < EnglishGent> vensa - over the phone perhaps? when you cant see who your talking to? (why you might want to ask)
24 Jan 2010 02:21:47 < vensa> hmmm
24 Jan 2010 02:21:56 < vensa> good example
24 Jan 2010 02:22:05 < EnglishGent> ty :)
24 Jan 2010 02:22:14 < vensa> no. ty :) (ki'e)
24 Jan 2010 02:22:23 < EnglishGent> ki'e
24 Jan 2010 02:22:32 < EnglishGent> (which I guess means 'thank you' ?) :)
24 Jan 2010 02:22:40 < vensa> ki'e is just "thanks"
24 Jan 2010 02:22:46 < vensa> ki'e do - would be thank you
24 Jan 2010 02:22:53 < EnglishGent> ah! ok
24 Jan 2010 02:22:56 < EnglishGent> ki'e do
24 Jan 2010 02:22:57 < EnglishGent> :)
24 Jan 2010 02:23:03 < vensa> it's a "discursive" like "coi"
24 Jan 2010 02:23:24 < vensa> so the sumti that comes after it is the addressee of the thanks\hello
24 Jan 2010 02:24:56 < vensa> timonator: if someone says "ki'e", can I say "na go'i .i ki'e do" as the equivalent of "no. thank YOU" or would there be a better alternative?
24 Jan 2010 02:25:14 < vensa> maybe "je'enai"?
24 Jan 2010 02:25:58 < EnglishGent> rl - bbiab :)
24 Jan 2010 02:26:05 -!- EnglishGent is now known as EnglishGent^afk
24 Jan 2010 02:27:28 < vensa> also: is there a way to use "ki'e" with a modal to say "thanks for nothing" or would I need to use "mi ckire do noda je'unai"?
24 Jan 2010 02:28:33 < lindar> Yay, I'm back.
24 Jan 2010 02:28:35 < lindar> vensa: ki'enai
24 Jan 2010 02:29:13 < vensa> hey lindar: to what question are you replying? first?
24 Jan 2010 02:30:09 < lindar> Second.
24 Jan 2010 02:30:57 < lindar> Also, I would think {go'i ra'o} for the first question.
24 Jan 2010 02:31:00 < vensa> ki'enai means "I do not thank you"... no?   I think it's missing a bit of the "cinicism" that I want to get accross :)
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24 Jan 2010 02:31:54 < vensa> for the first question: true. you would be saying "thank you" perhaps. but what about the "no (I don't want to accept your thanks
24 Jan 2010 02:32:00 < vensa> part. "je'enai"?
24 Jan 2010 02:32:52 < lindar> I can see where you're going with that, and yeah, it does make some amount of sense.
24 Jan 2010 02:32:56 < vensa> btw: I'm not sure that go'i repeats discursives :-S
24 Jan 2010 02:33:17 < lindar> Discursives?
24 Jan 2010 02:33:26 < vensa> going with what? we're talking two diff "threads" :)
24 Jan 2010 02:33:42 < lindar> >_> You're really bad at context.
24 Jan 2010 02:33:50 < vensa> "vocative"
24 Jan 2010 02:33:56 -!- Nuky [n=nuky@ti0054a380-dhcp0918.bb.online.no] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 02:34:10 < lindar> It should carry over COI, just not UI.
24 Jan 2010 02:34:13 < vensa> wait. what's the diff between discursives and vocatives?
24 Jan 2010 02:34:50 < lindar> I don't know what a discursive or vocative is, so maybe you could reference it by its selma'o?
24 Jan 2010 02:35:08 < vensa> so it carries over "doi"? if I say "doi lindar do melbi" and you say "go'i" then that means you are talking to yourself??
24 Jan 2010 02:36:37 < lindar> {go'i} repeats the meaning of the last phrase, as if to affirm it. {go'i ra'o} updates the speaker, meaning that you repeat the words and not the meaning.
24 Jan 2010 02:36:42 < timonator> i would again suggest a bridi: {ko na ckire mi ki'e do ku'i}
24 Jan 2010 02:37:24 < vensa> why not "je'enai .i ki'e do"?
24 Jan 2010 02:37:39 < vensa> I hate resorting to a full bridi
24 Jan 2010 02:38:15 < vensa> lindar: go'i repeats only the "main bridi" I believe
24 Jan 2010 02:38:36 < lindar> >______> Then maybe you should learn Toki Pona. Sonja Kisa comes through here quite a bit, so you could ask her yourself.
24 Jan 2010 02:38:42 < lindar> That's a pretty small language. No big clauses to have to say.
24 Jan 2010 02:39:13  * lindar throws a shoe.
24 Jan 2010 02:39:34  * vensa ducks
24 Jan 2010 02:40:10 < lindar> Also, I have no idea what you mean by "main bridi". It repeats the previous one, sure.
24 Jan 2010 02:40:17  * vensa sees that lindar is *already* getting upset (and for what?) and contemplates whether to drop the subject
24 Jan 2010 02:40:50 < vensa> timonator: can you settle this one? does "go'i" repeat selmaho COI?
24 Jan 2010 02:41:11 < lindar> lindar: {.i xu do nitcu lo nu darxi lo flira be do} vensa: {.i go'i ki'e .lindar.}
24 Jan 2010 02:41:17 < lindar> Repeats previous bridi minus UI.
24 Jan 2010 02:42:17 < lindar> It doesn't specify whether or not it's the "main bridi" because if the speaker trucks right along and keep speaking after asking you a question, they're probably not interested in actually getting an answer. =P
24 Jan 2010 02:42:35 < lindar> However, it's the very last bridi said before you spoke.
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24 Jan 2010 02:43:10 < vensa> lindar: sure. you're right. but that doesn't demonstrate anything about repeated COI
24 Jan 2010 02:44:07 < lindar> "<vensa> so it carries over "doi"? if I say "doi lindar do melbi" and you say "go'i" then that means you are talking to yourself??" That would be me agreeing with you, which seems kinda rude or pompous considering you didn't ask me a question in that example.
24 Jan 2010 02:44:18 < lindar> However, I'm not sure about it carrying over COI. Let's consult the refgram!
24 Jan 2010 02:44:31 < vensa> vensa: {coi lindar xu do djica lonu do catra vo'a }     lindar: {go'i}
24 Jan 2010 02:44:37 < timonator> go'a and friends are selbri, i don't think they carry over UI, especially since the UI specifically refer to the emotions of the speaker
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24 Jan 2010 02:44:49 < vensa> so lindar is saying : Hi myself! I want to kill myself
24 Jan 2010 02:44:51 < timonator> now if you want to say "i feel the same way, too" you might go with "ge'e" maybe?
24 Jan 2010 02:45:05 < vensa> timonator: we're not asking that
24 Jan 2010 02:45:10 < timonator> not?
24 Jan 2010 02:45:11 < vensa> we're asking about vocatives
24 Jan 2010 02:45:17 < timonator> i've only been half-attentive
24 Jan 2010 02:45:21 < timonator> what about them?
24 Jan 2010 02:45:27 < vensa> does go'i repeat them?
24 Jan 2010 02:45:28 < timonator> i mean, example?
24 Jan 2010 02:45:37 < vensa> vensa: {coi lindar xu do djica lonu do catra vo'a }     lindar: {go'i}
24 Jan 2010 02:45:45 < vensa> is lindar greeting himslef?
24 Jan 2010 02:45:48 < timonator> i don't see a reason for go'a to repeat COI or DOI
24 Jan 2010 02:45:53 < vensa> me neither
24 Jan 2010 02:45:55 < vensa> thank you
24 Jan 2010 02:45:56 < vensa> ha ha
24 Jan 2010 02:45:58 < vensa> 1-0 again
24 Jan 2010 02:46:26 < timonator> to me, COI and DOI are a little detached from the bridi, except for the effect of assigning a value to do
24 Jan 2010 02:46:44 < timonator> i don't know wether that's correct, though
24 Jan 2010 02:46:50 < timonator> i am hungry, i should have breakfast.
24 Jan 2010 02:47:23 < vensa> timonator: so to be clear, go'i wouldn't copy "ki'e" too?
24 Jan 2010 02:47:34 < timonator> i don't think so, no.
24 Jan 2010 02:47:38 < timonator> again: i'm not an expert
24 Jan 2010 02:47:42 < timonator> ask the mailing list, please
24 Jan 2010 02:47:46 < vensa> ok... thanks
24 Jan 2010 02:48:06 < lindar> Hmm... it doesn't mention in the refgram, but I'd think it perhaps wouldn't carry over?
24 Jan 2010 02:48:27 < vensa> I think strange effects would occur if it did carry over
24 Jan 2010 02:48:30 < vensa> so better not to
24 Jan 2010 02:48:40 < vensa> it's not really part of the bridi
24 Jan 2010 02:49:07 < vensa> (anyway)
24 Jan 2010 02:50:38 < lindar> cmavo {ge'e} glossing to "well" in the sense of "interjection", "unspecif emotion"   attitudinal: elliptical/unspecified/non-specific emotion; no particular feeling.
24 Jan 2010 02:50:41 < lindar> ???
24 Jan 2010 02:51:48 < lindar> Oh, your crappy grammar brings up an interesting point.
24 Jan 2010 02:52:07 < timonator> oh?
24 Jan 2010 02:52:55 < lindar> <vensa> vensa: {coi lindar xu do djica lonu do catra vo'a }     lindar: {go'i}    <---- you asked "Hello... Lindar, is it? You want to kill yourself." and based on how we interpret {go'i} I could be affirming that my name is, in fact, Lindar, or I could be repeating nothing if COI doesn't carry over.
24 Jan 2010 02:53:41 < lindar> ...or I could be affirming that my name is Lindar and agreeing that I want to kill myself...
24 Jan 2010 02:54:10 < lindar> How would you respond to that? It's like that stupid "Have you stopped beating your girlfriend yet?" question that you can't answer in English.
24 Jan 2010 02:55:10 < vensa> lindar: you're right in the fact that I forgot "do'u"
24 Jan 2010 02:55:12 < vensa> so...
24 Jan 2010 02:55:15 < vensa> 1-1 :)
24 Jan 2010 02:55:20 < vensa> other than that, I lost you entirely
24 Jan 2010 02:55:55 < lindar> You didn't need {do'u} there, but you forgot your dotside.
24 Jan 2010 02:56:25 < lindar> .i xu doi la vensa ku do nitcu lo nu tadni vau zo'o
24 Jan 2010 02:56:26 < vensa> I dont use dotside... I use "dotsense"
24 Jan 2010 02:56:37 < lindar> Dotsense, huh?
24 Jan 2010 02:56:54 < vensa> it's when I rely on the intellignece of the person I'm speaking with to know wherre the dot should have gone (next to the withespace)
24 Jan 2010 02:57:10 < vensa> obviously, you don'tt qualifyt as a dotsense listener :P
24 Jan 2010 02:58:42 < lindar> Yes, obviously I'm the idiot for writing Lojban properly. =D
24 Jan 2010 02:59:24  * lindar gives vensa 25p to purchase two full-stops to use for names.
24 Jan 2010 02:59:53 < vensa> not for writing Lojban  properly. Yes for being the nitpicky teddybear that you are always annoyed by (me acting that way)
24 Jan 2010 03:00:09 < vensa> yay! where canI "cash" these in?
24 Jan 2010 03:00:19 < vensa> is that like "lojban money"?
24 Jan 2010 03:00:22 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 03:00:27 < vensa> do we have an acceptable Lojban currency system?
24 Jan 2010 03:00:28 < lindar> No, it's twenty-five pence.
24 Jan 2010 03:00:50 < lindar> Redeemable at any paki stand or pub.
24 Jan 2010 03:01:16 < vensa> is that british money?
24 Jan 2010 03:01:26 < lindar> =\
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24 Jan 2010 03:02:14 < vensa> in any case, I don't think it would be redeemable here in israel
24 Jan 2010 03:02:38 < lindar> Ah.
24 Jan 2010 03:03:15 < lindar> I don't think we have an official currency.
24 Jan 2010 03:03:27 < vensa> its about time we did
24 Jan 2010 03:03:37 < lindar> lo jbodi'i
24 Jan 2010 03:04:20 < vensa> don't you mean: lo jboru'u ?
24 Jan 2010 03:05:33 < lindar> No. I don't.
24 Jan 2010 03:05:49 < lindar> ((Read the definition of rupnu, not just the gloss.))
24 Jan 2010 03:06:16 < vensa>  <makfa> lujvo {meryru'u} from tanru {merko rupnu} glossing to "US dollar"   r1=m1 is r2 US dollars.   Notes: Cf. {merko}, {rupnu}, {jdini}, {merfei}
24 Jan 2010 03:06:26 < vensa> read the gloss of US dollar :P
24 Jan 2010 03:06:27 < vensa> FACE
24 Jan 2010 03:07:31 < florolf> pe'i {jbodi'i} would be the money "system", while {jboru'u} would be a money unit (like, a coin)
24 Jan 2010 03:07:40 < florolf> coi rodo ta'o
24 Jan 2010 03:07:46 < vensa> yay!
24 Jan 2010 03:07:46 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 03:07:48 < vensa> 2-1
24 Jan 2010 03:07:52 < lindar> Did nobody actually read the definition?
24 Jan 2010 03:07:56 < vensa> coi florolf .i ki'esai
24 Jan 2010 03:08:03 < lindar> gismu {rupnu} glossing to "dollar" with rafsi -rup-, -ru'u-   x1 is measured in major-money-units (dollar/yuan/ruble) as x2 (quantity), monetary system x3.   Notes: Also pound, rupee, franc, mark, yen; x1 is generally a price/cost/value.
24 Jan 2010 03:08:10 < lindar>  Notes: Also pound, rupee, franc, mark, yen; x1 is generally a price/cost/value.
24 Jan 2010 03:08:15 < lindar> x1 is generally a price/cost/value.
24 Jan 2010 03:08:27 < lindar> x1 is a price
24 Jan 2010 03:08:42 < vensa> lindar: if you would have read L4B. you'd see that it is used as "a dollar"
24 Jan 2010 03:08:54 -!- niekie [i=quasselc@CAcert/Assurer/niekie] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
24 Jan 2010 03:09:16 < lindar> Yeah, and if you'd read the hardline LLG recognised definition that I just gave you, the official definition of the word, you would see that it is not a dollar.
24 Jan 2010 03:09:38 < lindar> x1 is generally a price/cost/value.
24 Jan 2010 03:09:46 < vensa> lindar: as you and I (and kribacr) have recognized: "the definitions need to be clarified"
24 Jan 2010 03:09:58 < lindar> x1 is generally a price/cost/value. <----very clear
24 Jan 2010 03:10:17  * florolf throws in {sicni}
24 Jan 2010 03:10:27 < vensa> so are you saying Nick Nicholas is an idiot??
24 Jan 2010 03:10:35 < lindar> x1 is measured in major-money-units (dollar/yuan/ruble) as x2 (quantity) <-------extremely clear. "x1 is measured" "as x2 (quantity)".
24 Jan 2010 03:10:54 < lindar> I don't know Nick Nicholas.
24 Jan 2010 03:11:00  * vensa loves when lindar gets this upset (and wrong)
24 Jan 2010 03:11:07 < lindar> I know what the hardline definition is.
24 Jan 2010 03:11:34 < lindar> x1 is a thing that costs something, x2 is how much it costs, x3 is the monetary system.
24 Jan 2010 03:11:37 < vensa> lindar: perhaps you don't "understand" the hardline definition. Isn't a working "example" clearer?
24 Jan 2010 03:11:53 < vensa> isn't the fact the there is already a lujvo for US dollar that uses ru'u CLEAR?
24 Jan 2010 03:12:06 < lindar> x1 is generally a price/cost/value. <-----------
24 Jan 2010 03:12:19 < vensa> you like repeating stuff
24 Jan 2010 03:12:34 < vensa> fine. go ahead and stnad your ground
24 Jan 2010 03:12:36 < lindar> x1 is generally a price/cost/value. <----- the guy that invented Lojban wrote this.
24 Jan 2010 03:12:49 < vensa> it will be even more fun when xalbo wakes up and says his opinion :)
24 Jan 2010 03:12:54 < lindar> Nick Nicholas didn't invent Lojban, Bob LeChavelier did.
24 Jan 2010 03:13:17 < lindar> Lojbab says "x1 is generally a price/cost/value."
24 Jan 2010 03:13:23 < vensa> fine
24 Jan 2010 03:13:51 < vensa> I trust you'll remember to ask when the lojbo cevni's wake up
24 Jan 2010 03:15:28 < vensa> doi florolf ma cnino
24 Jan 2010 03:15:34 < lindar> xalbo Broca rlpowell clsn donri florolf timonator tomoj treed Twey Anybody that's awake right now, care to state an opinion?
24 Jan 2010 03:15:58 < vensa> florolf has already stated an opinion
24 Jan 2010 03:16:20 < lindar> "Hey florolf, what's unfamiliar?"
24 Jan 2010 03:16:38 < vensa> yeah. got a problem with that?
24 Jan 2010 03:16:55 < lindar> It's a weird question to ask. =P
24 Jan 2010 03:16:55 < vensa> man. is there anything you DONT have a problem with?
24 Jan 2010 03:17:02 < vensa> yeah. well I'm WEIRD
24 Jan 2010 03:17:04 <@Broca> What? Who? Where?
24 Jan 2010 03:17:08 < vensa> learn to live with it :P
24 Jan 2010 03:17:18 < vensa> oh this should be good :)
24 Jan 2010 03:17:28 -!- niekie [i=quasselc@CAcert/Assurer/niekie] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 03:17:30 < vensa> coi Broca
24 Jan 2010 03:17:47 < lindar> Broca: Is "x1 is generally a price/cost/value." unclear in some way (re: rupnu)?
24 Jan 2010 03:18:26 < vensa> Broca: the original question was: what lujvo would you use to define the "official Lojban currency" (assuming there was one
24 Jan 2010 03:18:46 < vensa> jbodi'i or jboru'u
24 Jan 2010 03:19:01 <@Broca> Oh, that's easy. jboru'u.
24 Jan 2010 03:19:06 < vensa> HA
24 Jan 2010 03:19:10 < vensa> in your face lindar :P
24 Jan 2010 03:19:16 < vensa> thanks Broca :)
24 Jan 2010 03:19:34 <@Broca> (The value of a 1-dollar coin is one dollars)
24 Jan 2010 03:19:43 < timonator> lindar: opinion on what?
24 Jan 2010 03:19:47 < timonator> gmoin, florolf, btw
24 Jan 2010 03:20:27 < lindar> vensa is arguing with me whether or not x1 of rupnu is money. rupnu1 is a -value- and jdini1 is the actual money.
24 Jan 2010 03:20:50 < vensa> lindar: don't twist the facts please
24 Jan 2010 03:21:24 < vensa> the original argument was "how to call "the Lojban currency"" (like dollar, euro, etc)
24 Jan 2010 03:21:58 < lindar> Whatever. I referred to the actual money. The point is that you disagreed with the hardline definition. I don't get that.
24 Jan 2010 03:22:13 < vensa> I disagreed with the lujvo "jbodi'i"
24 Jan 2010 03:22:32 < vensa> I disagreed with YOU using only the hardline definition as an argument
24 Jan 2010 03:22:36 -!- EnglishGent^afk is now known as EnglishGent
24 Jan 2010 03:22:40 < EnglishGent> coi again :)
24 Jan 2010 03:22:40 < vensa> and ignoring the example by Nick Nicholas in L4B
24 Jan 2010 03:22:55 < vensa> coi EnglishGent .i fi'i se'ixru
24 Jan 2010 03:23:13 < vensa> {la'oi EnglishGent} (b4 somebody kills me)
24 Jan 2010 03:23:19 < EnglishGent> what does the stuff after 'EnglishGent' mean? :)
24 Jan 2010 03:23:37 < vensa> fi'i means "welcome as in "hospitality"
24 Jan 2010 03:23:44 < lindar> That point is a minor semantic difference. {lo lojbo jdini} is Lojbanic money. {lo lojbo rupnu} is X number of Lojbanic things-with-monetary-value.
24 Jan 2010 03:23:48 < vensa> se'ixru is "a returner"
24 Jan 2010 03:23:58 < vensa> so "welcom returner" (kinda like welcome back)
24 Jan 2010 03:24:00 < lindar> You asked me what I would call the Lojbanic currency.
24 Jan 2010 03:24:32 < lindar> You didn't ask me what I would call one JboBuck.
24 Jan 2010 03:24:32 < EnglishGent> ah - and la'oi? :)
24 Jan 2010 03:24:34 < vensa> come one... you know we were talking about an equivalent to "dollar\euro"
24 Jan 2010 03:24:43 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 03:24:48 < vensa> don't play dumb londar
24 Jan 2010 03:25:01 < vensa> (typo)
24 Jan 2010 03:25:13 < lindar> "<vensa> do we have an acceptable Lojban currency system?"
24 Jan 2010 03:25:20 < lindar> Lojban currency system
24 Jan 2010 03:25:22 < lindar> currency
24 Jan 2010 03:25:25 < vensa> "la'oi" is like "la" but the name that comes after it is assumed to be non-lojban
24 Jan 2010 03:25:40 < EnglishGent> we need an economist
24 Jan 2010 03:25:52 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 03:25:56 < vensa> [13:05] <lindar> I don't think we have an official currency.
24 Jan 2010 03:25:57 < EnglishGent> the name of a currency is a comparitively minor point! :)
24 Jan 2010 03:26:02 < vensa> [13:05] <vensa> its about time we did
24 Jan 2010 03:26:08 < vensa> [13:06] <lindar> lo jbodi'i
24 Jan 2010 03:26:09 < EnglishGent> whuffie?
24 Jan 2010 03:26:12 < EnglishGent> :)
24 Jan 2010 03:26:19 < vensa> how would a sane person interpret that?
24 Jan 2010 03:26:30 < lindar> As a suggestion.
24 Jan 2010 03:26:36 < vensa> why would you want a word for the "monetary SYSTEM" more than a word for the currency UNIT?
24 Jan 2010 03:27:03 < lindar> Cos you asked specifically for the name of the currency, not the name of the currency unit!
24 Jan 2010 03:27:05 < vensa> fine lindar. you obvioiusly are into "trolling" now
24 Jan 2010 03:27:15 < lindar> -_______-
24 Jan 2010 03:27:30 < lindar> I didn't mention anything about the system.
24 Jan 2010 03:27:48 < lindar> The monetary system would be {jboteryru'u}.
24 Jan 2010 03:28:02 -!- killerbo1 [n=mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 03:28:07  * vensa is not going to dignify this argument with more comments
24 Jan 2010 03:28:32 < vensa> so, what's up EnglishGent?
24 Jan 2010 03:28:39 < vensa> learn any new Lojban since we last spoke?
24 Jan 2010 03:28:41 < lindar> Fine, whatever.
24 Jan 2010 03:28:52 -!- killerbo1 [n=mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Client Quit]
24 Jan 2010 03:28:56 -!- killerbo1 [n=mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 03:29:04 < EnglishGent> no - been busy irl
24 Jan 2010 03:29:14 < vensa> oh... rl is a bitch
24 Jan 2010 03:29:16  * EnglishGent hoping for another lesson soon though :)
24 Jan 2010 03:29:19 < EnglishGent> yes - it is :|
24 Jan 2010 03:29:41  * EnglishGent shall have to return to it again soon as well... just stopping for a coffee
24 Jan 2010 03:29:57  * vensa wishes he could help EnglishGent. but I am no where near being able to "teach"
24 Jan 2010 03:30:10 < vensa> ah...  what's you RL occupation?
24 Jan 2010 03:30:19 < EnglishGent> I'm a computer programmer
24 Jan 2010 03:30:31 < vensa> ahhh. so u r...
24 Jan 2010 03:30:39 < EnglishGent> though - I'm hoping to become a PhD student (if I can sort funding)
24 Jan 2010 03:30:47 < vensa> nice
24 Jan 2010 03:30:48 < EnglishGent> (in AI) :)
24 Jan 2010 03:30:54 < vensa> cool!
24 Jan 2010 03:30:56 < EnglishGent> how about you? :)
24 Jan 2010 03:30:58 < vensa> that's an awesome subject IMO
24 Jan 2010 03:31:04 < lindar> Ah, so you're going to teach a computer how to speak Lojban? =P
24 Jan 2010 03:31:12 < vensa> I'm also a programmer
24 Jan 2010 03:31:19 < EnglishGent> cool :)
24 Jan 2010 03:31:26 < timonator> poor us
24 Jan 2010 03:31:27 < EnglishGent> well - I know it's machine paresable... :)
24 Jan 2010 03:31:39 < vensa> yeah. that would be cool englishgent
24 Jan 2010 03:32:02 < vensa> the first Lojban robot\AI system
24 Jan 2010 03:32:07 < EnglishGent> there's a lojban mode for emacs if your interested (not quite the same thing - but handy) :)
24 Jan 2010 03:32:51 < vensa> (I don't do emacs)
24 Jan 2010 03:32:57 -!- killerbo1 is now known as killerboy
24 Jan 2010 03:34:10 < EnglishGent> what languages do you work with vensa? (curious)
24 Jan 2010 03:34:11 < EnglishGent> :)
24 Jan 2010 03:34:22 < vensa> C#
24 Jan 2010 03:34:26 < vensa> on Windows
24 Jan 2010 03:34:40 < vensa> (for WEB mainly)
24 Jan 2010 03:34:44 < EnglishGent> :)
24 Jan 2010 03:35:09  * EnglishGent needs to learn the WPF sometime in the near future
24 Jan 2010 03:35:21  * vensa too :P
24 Jan 2010 03:37:16 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 03:38:16 < EnglishGent> okay - more rl stuff :|
24 Jan 2010 03:38:19 < EnglishGent> back later!
24 Jan 2010 03:38:23 < lindar> Have fun.
24 Jan 2010 03:38:29 < vensa> co'o
24 Jan 2010 03:38:31 -!- EnglishGent is now known as EnglishGent^bbl
24 Jan 2010 03:41:29 < lindar> What did you mean by {ma cnino} earlier?
24 Jan 2010 03:42:01 < vensa> it's my catch phrase for "what's new"
24 Jan 2010 03:42:24 < timonator> so'i cifnu
24 Jan 2010 03:42:29  * lindar doesn't understand.
24 Jan 2010 03:42:47 < vensa> where are the babies timos?
24 Jan 2010 03:43:04 < lindar> He doesn't know. They're not familiar to him.
24 Jan 2010 03:43:14 < vensa> huh
24 Jan 2010 03:44:41 < vensa> ok you have a point
24 Jan 2010 03:44:45 < vensa> how about "ma nuzba"?
24 Jan 2010 03:44:59 < lindar> Parfek.
24 Jan 2010 03:45:04 < vensa> huh
24 Jan 2010 03:45:07 < vensa> perfect?
24 Jan 2010 03:45:31 < lindar> C'est parfait.
24 Jan 2010 03:45:57 < vensa> lindar: I didn't know you were also french, on top of the american, on top of the english
24 Jan 2010 03:46:30 -!- cirzgamanti` [n=sarefo@xdsl-87-79-249-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 03:46:45 < lindar> I'm not. In primary schools in most civilised countries we're taught foreign languages. =D
24 Jan 2010 03:47:10 < vensa> yeah. here too
24 Jan 2010 03:47:25 < vensa> c'est something is the farthest I've gotten in "french" class
24 Jan 2010 03:47:42 < lindar> Fun fun.
24 Jan 2010 03:47:55 < vensa> c'est manifik
24 Jan 2010 03:48:07 < vensa> de'a jundi
24 Jan 2010 03:56:22 < lindar> So, yeah...
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24 Jan 2010 04:04:02 < lindar> .i mi ponse lo panlo salmone ku noi nenri le mi lekmi'i .i ma jai ta'i jukpa fai mi .ei
24 Jan 2010 04:10:52 < lindar> ...
24 Jan 2010 04:11:06 < Nuky> Dot dot dot.
24 Jan 2010 04:11:40 < lindar> ?
24 Jan 2010 04:11:43 < vensa> coi la'oi Nuky
24 Jan 2010 04:11:50 < vensa> do mo
24 Jan 2010 04:11:53 < lindar> .i coi la .nuky.
24 Jan 2010 04:12:04 < Nuky> coi re do
24 Jan 2010 04:12:10 < vensa> lindar: why'd you call him Nuka?
24 Jan 2010 04:12:22 < Nuky> =X
24 Jan 2010 04:12:25 < lindar> .i ku'i ma do tavla fo lo glibau
24 Jan 2010 04:12:59 < Nuky> Yeah, I'm nowhere near there yet. =)
24 Jan 2010 04:13:10 < vensa> cool a new newbie :)
24 Jan 2010 04:13:14 < vensa> welcome newbie
24 Jan 2010 04:13:38 < lindar> Is your name pronounced "noo-kee"?
24 Jan 2010 04:13:46 < Nuky> Actually
24 Jan 2010 04:13:53 < Nuky> I've been here much before. =)
24 Jan 2010 04:13:58 < vensa> lindar: obviously is not a lojban name (seeing is only the N is capitalized)
24 Jan 2010 04:14:41 < lindar> Ah, must have been back a while, then. Welcome back.
24 Jan 2010 04:14:56 < Nuky> Indeed it's been a while! Thank you.
24 Jan 2010 04:15:01 -!- Nuky is now known as nukis
24 Jan 2010 04:15:06 < nukis> >.>
24 Jan 2010 04:15:11 < vensa> welcom back. The spirit of Lojban doth rekindle
24 Jan 2010 04:15:18 < nukis> Indeed, indeed
24 Jan 2010 04:15:30 < vensa> fi'i nukis
24 Jan 2010 04:15:38 < lindar> So, what brings you back?
24 Jan 2010 04:16:04 < nukis> Ah, just randomness.
24 Jan 2010 04:16:18 < vensa> huh?
24 Jan 2010 04:16:59 < nukis> I said something half lojban, and decided to check out lojban.org for any news, and there were. Then I decided to check up on the irc bash thingie for laughs. And laugh, I did.
24 Jan 2010 04:17:00 < vensa> it's a shame to think your life actions are goverened by randomness... are you a quantum theory dude?
24 Jan 2010 04:17:10 < nukis> =)
24 Jan 2010 04:17:31 < vensa> Lojban is always good for a good laugh :P
24 Jan 2010 04:17:38 < vensa> especially with old lindar here <3
24 Jan 2010 04:17:39 < nukis> Ahaha, oh man.
24 Jan 2010 04:17:43 < lindar> =D
24 Jan 2010 04:17:54 < lindar> Yep, I'm a right laugh riot I am.
24 Jan 2010 04:18:05 < vensa> that u r :)
24 Jan 2010 04:18:24 < nukis> So, back to square one with lojban for beginners for me! =)
24 Jan 2010 04:18:36 < vensa> how far did you get last time?
24 Jan 2010 04:18:49 < timonator> oh it's nuky!
24 Jan 2010 04:18:50 < nukis> Eh, up to time, plus some reference book.
24 Jan 2010 04:18:56 < lindar> Ah, that sounds like fun. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me as I'll definitely be around for a few more hours.
24 Jan 2010 04:18:57 < nukis> timonator!
24 Jan 2010 04:19:14 < nukis> Sweet, thanks. =)
24 Jan 2010 04:19:15 < lindar> ...or Timo, cos he's smarter and more likeable than I.
24 Jan 2010 04:19:19 < vensa> I see you two have met :)
24 Jan 2010 04:19:31 < vensa> that he is :P
24 Jan 2010 04:19:38 < nukis> =P
24 Jan 2010 04:20:06 < nukis> Treat me as a newcomer: I've forgotten all there is, sadly.
24 Jan 2010 04:20:25 < nukis> .uinaibu
24 Jan 2010 04:20:27 < vensa> don't worry. I'm sure it will come back to you
24 Jan 2010 04:20:36 < vensa> you see :)
24 Jan 2010 04:20:46 < nukis> It sure does! =)
24 Jan 2010 04:21:06 < vensa> just stick around here for a while and tou'll be making lojban jokes in no time :P
24 Jan 2010 04:21:34 < nukis> =)
24 Jan 2010 04:21:34 < vensa> ma cnino .i so'i cifnu
24 Jan 2010 04:21:54 < nukis> something new?
24 Jan 2010 04:21:59 < vensa> (private joke)
24 Jan 2010 04:22:06 < nukis> Ah.
24 Jan 2010 04:22:26 < vensa> actually "ma cnino" means: "what is unfamiliar"
24 Jan 2010 04:22:50 < vensa> so timos said that "many babies" were unfamiliiart to him
24 Jan 2010 04:23:06 < vensa> (I WAS trying to ask "what's new" but that turn out to be "ma nazbu")
24 Jan 2010 04:23:20 < lindar> *nuzba
24 Jan 2010 04:23:26 < vensa> sorry "nuzba"
24 Jan 2010 04:23:49 < nukis> =D
24 Jan 2010 04:23:52 < vensa> ma nazbu is also funny
24 Jan 2010 04:23:57 < vensa> "what is a nose"?
24 Jan 2010 04:23:59 < vensa> lol
24 Jan 2010 04:24:09 < lindar> djan kept doing that with skina and ended up talking about "skani" for ten minutes, which we all heard at first as "skami".
24 Jan 2010 04:24:13 < vensa> oh wait. that's nazbi
24 Jan 2010 04:24:22 < vensa> this language just keeps throwing you off
24 Jan 2010 04:24:26 < nukis> Hahaha
24 Jan 2010 04:24:46 < vensa> lindar: was it in Mumble?
24 Jan 2010 04:25:07 < lindar> YT, but he's famous for other muck-ups on Mumble.
24 Jan 2010 04:25:23 < vensa> ki'a zoi YT
24 Jan 2010 04:25:38 < lindar> {djeca} and {xxxxxxxxxxxxxxu do tiurny mi} are his sig. phrases.
24 Jan 2010 04:26:03 < lindar> la .iutiub. du YT
24 Jan 2010 04:26:08 < lindar> http://youtube.com/
24 Jan 2010 04:26:09 < vensa> ahh
24 Jan 2010 04:26:34 < vensa> la .iutiub. du la'e zoi YT la'a
24 Jan 2010 04:27:36 < vensa> lindar: thanks for supplying the link. I may have been LOST without that
24 Jan 2010 04:28:21 < lindar> You're welcome.
24 Jan 2010 04:28:47 < vensa> I love when you respond to cinicism with cinicism <3
24 Jan 2010 04:30:42 < nukis> Oh, lojbanistan ... =)
24 Jan 2010 04:32:05 < vensa> I always get these mixed up: cynical, sarcastic, ironic
24 Jan 2010 04:32:29 < lindar> That's because you're stupid.
24 Jan 2010 04:32:32 < lindar> 1
24 Jan 2010 04:32:34 < vensa> hmmmm
24 Jan 2010 04:32:36 < lindar> 1-0
24 Jan 2010 04:32:37 < lindar> =D
24 Jan 2010 04:32:45 < vensa> whas that cynical?
24 Jan 2010 04:32:52 < vensa> or just plain mean?
24 Jan 2010 04:32:52 < nukis> I think that's what we call
24 Jan 2010 04:33:01 < nukis> cincere <<
24 Jan 2010 04:33:04 < lindar> That was somewhere between sarcastic and mean.
24 Jan 2010 04:33:06 < nukis> Err. sincere.
24 Jan 2010 04:33:28 < vensa> good to know
24 Jan 2010 04:33:44 < lindar> Cynical is a type of negativity, sarcastic means that you mean the opposite (often in a humorous or hurtful manner), ironic means that it is unexpected.
24 Jan 2010 04:34:48 < vensa> ni'o doi nukis do gunka ma
24 Jan 2010 04:35:08 < nukis> .yyyyyy.
24 Jan 2010 04:35:15  * nukis shrugs.
24 Jan 2010 04:35:22 < lindar> Oooooh, I actually like that phrase.
24 Jan 2010 04:35:51 < vensa> yeah. lindar shrugs alot
24 Jan 2010 04:35:56 < vensa> then I kick him
24 Jan 2010 04:36:17 < lindar> {.i gunka ma} for a Lojbanic "What's up?".
24 Jan 2010 04:36:36 < vensa> lindar: that's not the intention
24 Jan 2010 04:36:51 < nukis> Yeah. But I can't recall the jbogau equivalent of study D=
24 Jan 2010 04:37:00 < lindar> tadni
24 Jan 2010 04:37:09 < nukis> Oh, right. Danke.
24 Jan 2010 04:37:13 < lindar> Ah, what did you intend, vensa?
24 Jan 2010 04:37:19 < vensa> nm
24 Jan 2010 04:37:24 < nukis> >.>
24 Jan 2010 04:37:30 < vensa> knowing you... I'd rather not say :)
24 Jan 2010 04:37:38 < vensa> nukis understood me however
24 Jan 2010 04:37:58 < vensa> tu'a do nanca ma
24 Jan 2010 04:38:11 < nukis> >.>
24 Jan 2010 04:38:51 < lindar> Did you mean {.i do se briju fi ma}?
24 Jan 2010 04:39:08 < nukis> .oi I'm wanted elsewhere for whatever reason. de'a jundi. (di'a?) =(
24 Jan 2010 04:39:24 < lindar> You got it the first time. <3
24 Jan 2010 04:39:25 < vensa> if you must know, I meant: ma jibri do
24 Jan 2010 04:39:47 < lindar> xD
24 Jan 2010 04:39:53 < lindar> Wow, good word to know.
24 Jan 2010 04:40:06  * lindar doesn't know it because it doesn't apply.
24 Jan 2010 04:40:19  * lindar is painfully unemployed, but zvati le ckule.
24 Jan 2010 04:40:32 < vensa> poor lindar
24 Jan 2010 04:41:13  * lindar high fives vensa for the legitimate victory of knowing the correct word (or at least being able to look it up).
24 Jan 2010 04:41:27 < vensa> xu do to'e se le'ipli
24 Jan 2010 04:41:50 < vensa> thanks
24 Jan 2010 04:42:13 -!- xlaid [n=klaid@ip68-226-71-131.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 04:42:13 < vensa> you're starting to freak me out (with your niceness). please stop :P
24 Jan 2010 04:44:03 < vensa> would the opposite of "employed" be "unemployed" or "employer"?
24 Jan 2010 04:44:28 < lindar> Unemployed, based on the lujvo you used.
24 Jan 2010 04:44:39 < vensa> really?
24 Jan 2010 04:44:43 < lindar> le'ipli1 is an employer.
24 Jan 2010 04:44:52 < vensa>  I always wondered how one arrives at the opposite meaning of something
24 Jan 2010 04:45:28 < lindar> An employer is still employed.
24 Jan 2010 04:46:02 < vensa> hmmm... "I'm thinking "na" may not have sufficed actually. because "it is not true that you are employed" doesn't say enything about being perhaps self-employed....
24 Jan 2010 04:46:23 < vensa> this opposite stuff is tricky
24 Jan 2010 04:46:46 < vensa> what would "do to'e mlatu" mean?
24 Jan 2010 04:46:49 < lindar> Perhaps. As long as you don't think that the opposite of hot is carrot, I think you're pretty well off.
24 Jan 2010 04:47:09 < lindar> Uhhh... an un-cat?
24 Jan 2010 04:47:12 < Sonja> somecarrots are cold
24 Jan 2010 04:48:01 < vensa> an anti-cat? (cat made up of anti-matter)
24 Jan 2010 04:48:06 < lindar> xD Sure.
24 Jan 2010 04:48:20 < Sonja> cute
24 Jan 2010 04:48:23 < Sonja> i want an anticat
24 Jan 2010 04:48:36 < vensa> my atdidof trumps your anticat
24 Jan 2010 04:48:48 < vensa> {antidog} (damn those typos of mine)
24 Jan 2010 04:49:18 < lindar> You can name your anti-cat {la .tolylat.}.
24 Jan 2010 04:50:25 < vensa> lindar: why would I want to call my cat a "toilet"? jk
24 Jan 2010 04:50:33 < lindar> xD
24 Jan 2010 04:51:03 < vensa> lindar: hasn't anyone taught you it's not polite to piss on your pets
24 Jan 2010 04:51:07 < nukis> .uibu di'a jundi
24 Jan 2010 04:51:30 < lindar> My cat is named (in Lojban) {la .nicte.}. She's named in a friend's conlang as "Kyula" said like {kiula}.
24 Jan 2010 04:51:35 < vensa> fi'i se'ixru du la nukis
24 Jan 2010 04:51:46 < nukis> =(
24 Jan 2010 04:52:12 < lindar> errr... {la nicte}
24 Jan 2010 04:52:17 < lindar> No dotside! =P
24 Jan 2010 04:52:23 < lindar> I've been awake for a day or two too long.
24 Jan 2010 04:52:25 < nukis> nictes?
24 Jan 2010 04:52:57 < lindar> No, {la nicte}.
24 Jan 2010 04:53:37  * vensa doesn't believe that lindar missed one of his crappy-grammar lojban sentences
24 Jan 2010 04:53:58 < nukis> If you insist! =)
24 Jan 2010 04:54:06 < lindar> You can keep it.
24 Jan 2010 04:54:13 < lindar> I don't want it.
24 Jan 2010 04:55:37 < lindar> .iku'i fi'i la .nukis. noi xrukla
24 Jan 2010 04:55:52 < vensa> nope... just checked it
24 Jan 2010 04:56:03  * nukis shrugs again.
24 Jan 2010 04:56:11 < lindar> Nope?
24 Jan 2010 04:56:14 < vensa> oops
24 Jan 2010 04:56:20 < vensa> not nope
24 Jan 2010 04:56:27 < vensa> how come it works only the other way around?
24 Jan 2010 04:57:07 < vensa> ohhh.. stupid me
24 Jan 2010 04:58:16 < vensa> fi'i se'ixru noi du la nukis <-- there we go. If I want to say "returner" b4 "nukis"
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24 Jan 2010 04:59:56  * lindar applauds, but is slightly confused by an incidental next to a restrictive.
24 Jan 2010 05:00:26  * nukis doesn't know what to do or confuse.
24 Jan 2010 05:00:31 < vensa> as long as you're applauding, I can live with your confusion :)
24 Jan 2010 05:00:31 < lindar> .i pe'i do nitcu lo nu pilno zo poi
24 Jan 2010 05:00:44 < vensa> pe'inai
24 Jan 2010 05:00:55 < vensa> poi is to restrict the identity
24 Jan 2010 05:01:10 < vensa> i.e., among all those returning, I am refering to nukis
24 Jan 2010 05:01:24 < vensa> I just want to give incidental information... the returner, (btw: also known as nukis)
24 Jan 2010 05:02:05 < timonator> uh
24 Jan 2010 05:02:11 < timonator> you need to have a sumti there
24 Jan 2010 05:02:16 < timonator> else the noi clause can not attach
24 Jan 2010 05:02:20 < vensa> nukis: go hit the books so you can get confused about this too
24 Jan 2010 05:02:24 < lindar> It's certainly correct, but {du} is very exact, so to incidentally be EXACTLY the same as a returner in a mirrored restrictive identity sounds strange.
24 Jan 2010 05:02:46 < nukis> =I
24 Jan 2010 05:02:47 < lindar> timo: coi puts implied {le} if there isn't one.
24 Jan 2010 05:02:52 < vensa> the sumti is "se'ixru"
24 Jan 2010 05:03:00 < timonator> no. it doesn't work
24 Jan 2010 05:03:09 < timonator> same reason why you need coi la timos e lo gerku
24 Jan 2010 05:03:11 < lindar> {fi'i se'ixru} is the same as {.i fi'i le se'ixru ku}.
24 Jan 2010 05:03:15 < vensa>  <makfa> (^fi'i /hospitality/ se'ixru /to return (intr.)/ <noi /,which..,/ [<<du /same identity as/>> ([du2 ():] la / / nukis. /[NAME]/) VAU / /] KU'O> DO'U / /^)
24 Jan 2010 05:03:22 < timonator> oh
24 Jan 2010 05:03:25 < timonator> that's surprising
24 Jan 2010 05:03:42 < lindar> That's how it's been forever. That's why it's gendra to say {.i coi .timos.}.
24 Jan 2010 05:03:52 < timonator> no no
24 Jan 2010 05:03:53 < timonator> not that
24 Jan 2010 05:03:55 < timonator> i knew that
24 Jan 2010 05:04:03 < lindar> fi'i is COI.
24 Jan 2010 05:04:15 < timonator> what about coi cizra e la timos
24 Jan 2010 05:04:30 < lindar> That's {.i coi le cizra .e la .timos.}.
24 Jan 2010 05:04:41 < timonator> but it's ungrammatical
24 Jan 2010 05:05:06 < lindar> [citation needed]
24 Jan 2010 05:05:06 < vensa> <makfa> not grammatical: coi <COI> [greetings] cizra <BRIVLA> [strange] .e <A> [and] la <LA> [ ] timos. <CMENE> []
24 Jan 2010 05:05:10 < vensa> why is that?
24 Jan 2010 05:05:24 < timonator> because cizra is not a sumti
24 Jan 2010 05:05:25 < vensa> timos: are you just saying I needed "LE se'ixru"?
24 Jan 2010 05:05:31 < timonator> i thought so
24 Jan 2010 05:05:35 < timonator> apparently yo udo not
24 Jan 2010 05:05:48 < vensa> then how come your example doesnt work?
24 Jan 2010 05:05:55 < vensa> maybe it's a bug with the parser
24 Jan 2010 05:06:16 < lindar> It's very strange. la makfa says {coi .timos.} and {coi cizra} works, but not {coi cizra .e la .timos.}.
24 Jan 2010 05:07:04 < vensa> spooky
24 Jan 2010 05:07:36 < vensa> we should definitely consult the elders on this one
24 Jan 2010 05:08:36 -!- Melvar [n=melvar@dslb-092-072-152-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 05:08:58 < vensa> coisai melvar
24 Jan 2010 05:09:12 < vensa> ma nuzba
24 Jan 2010 05:09:44 < timonator> because your mom
24 Jan 2010 05:10:01 < vensa> ma nuzba fi loi cizra tumla zo'o
24 Jan 2010 05:11:14 < timonator> lo cumla cu mlatu lo tumla
24 Jan 2010 05:11:48 < vensa> timos: are you trying to tounge-twist us with nonsense?
24 Jan 2010 05:12:07 < lindar> xD
24 Jan 2010 05:12:14 < vensa> It's a good thing I'm not reading this aloud :P
24 Jan 2010 05:12:15 < timonator> tu noi tumla mlatu cu cumla lo mlatu
24 Jan 2010 05:12:40 < nukis> XD
24 Jan 2010 05:12:43 < vensa> I'm not even going to TRY to parse THAT
24 Jan 2010 05:12:46 < Melvar> .i .uinairu'e loi snime cu carvi
24 Jan 2010 05:12:57 < vensa> again with the SNIME?
24 Jan 2010 05:13:02 < timonator> tu noi tumla mlatu cu cumla lo mlatu noi ma tu cu cukta
24 Jan 2010 05:13:05 < vensa> when will it end O lord?
24 Jan 2010 05:13:46 < vensa> and why are you sad about it? when will you learn to turn your snow into a snowman?
24 Jan 2010 05:14:40 < Melvar> The snow so far hasn’t been of the sticky kind.
24 Jan 2010 05:14:51 < lindar> Oooooh, the puffy kind?
24 Jan 2010 05:14:56 < vensa> ahhh
24 Jan 2010 05:15:11 < vensa> lindar: do you GET snow in CA?
24 Jan 2010 05:15:25 < timonator> no, you POST snow in CA
24 Jan 2010 05:15:33 < vensa> lol
24 Jan 2010 05:15:38 < Twey> lindar: A currency is a quantity of value, after all
24 Jan 2010 05:15:47 < vensa> hehehe
24 Jan 2010 05:15:53 < vensa> let's not spark that argument again
24 Jan 2010 05:16:35 < Twey> But x3 does look more specific if one's attempting to talk about a particular currency
24 Jan 2010 05:16:43 < lindar> Yes, let's not. I already know that I'm right and vensa was desperately trying to cover up a logical fallacy in English by arguing semantics.
24 Jan 2010 05:16:44 < Twey> teryru'u
24 Jan 2010 05:16:50 < lindar> It's okay vensa, I forgive you.
24 Jan 2010 05:17:02 < vensa> shut up
24 Jan 2010 05:17:25 < Twey> Of course that can be omitted when forming lujvo, so long as no ambiguity results, since their place orders are defined by the creator anyway
24 Jan 2010 05:17:31 -!- LogicalDash [n=LogicalD@ool-4355be95.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 05:18:10 < Melvar> .i loi snime poi puzi carvi na snipa vo'a
24 Jan 2010 05:18:16 < Melvar> Is that correct?
24 Jan 2010 05:18:20 < lindar> Twey: Oh? I thought it was at least in good taste to say something like {jboteryru'u} if the x3 of rupnu was going to head up front with x1 of jbo.
24 Jan 2010 05:18:26 < vensa> Twey: can I say: fi'i se'ixru noi du la nukis
24 Jan 2010 05:18:40 < Twey> lindar: I think that in the interests of brevity it's often not a good idea
24 Jan 2010 05:19:03 < lindar> vensa: I never said it was wrong, but it looks weird to me. {noi du} seems strange.
24 Jan 2010 05:19:12 < Twey> vensa: Yes
24 Jan 2010 05:19:15 < vensa> lindar: this one isn't against you
24 Jan 2010 05:19:18 < vensa> it's against makfa
24 Jan 2010 05:19:27 < Twey> noi du is weird — try no'u
24 Jan 2010 05:19:35 < Twey> (basically the same thing)
24 Jan 2010 05:19:35 < vensa> Twey: then why CAN't I say: coi cizra e la timos
24 Jan 2010 05:19:38 < lindar> Oh, the contested thing with makfa was {.i coi cizra .e la .timos.}.
24 Jan 2010 05:19:45 -!- jaguaro [i=f@200.163.184.215] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 05:20:02 < vensa> Twey: but with no'u I need "me" no? because the x2 is a cmevla
24 Jan 2010 05:20:05 < Twey> vensa: I think it's just a quirk of the grammar
24 Jan 2010 05:20:13 < Twey> vensa: No
24 Jan 2010 05:20:22 < Twey> no'u takes another sumti already
24 Jan 2010 05:20:28 < vensa> oh right
24 Jan 2010 05:20:30 < vensa> thanks
24 Jan 2010 05:20:37 < LogicalDash> mi cikna .i do djica ma be zu'e mi
24 Jan 2010 05:20:37 < Twey> You don't need to (and may not) convert it to a selbri
24 Jan 2010 05:20:37 < lindar> Ooooh, nifty.
24 Jan 2010 05:21:14 < vensa> finally we have found a good use for no'u... what a reliefr
24 Jan 2010 05:22:22 < Twey> no'u is used often
24 Jan 2010 05:22:30 -!- AngusRF [n=AngusRF@p5B08508C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 05:22:40 < vensa> ahhh what a relief. I thought I learned it for nothing :) jk
24 Jan 2010 05:23:04 < Twey> ‘ne’ is one we don't see very much
24 Jan 2010 05:23:12 < Twey> Try to bring it back to life ☺
24 Jan 2010 05:23:19 < vensa> incidentally associated with...
24 Jan 2010 05:23:41 < lindar> Ooooh, that's like {pe} but incidental?
24 Jan 2010 05:24:07 < Melvar> I once found “no'u” useful to clarify whom I meant by some Lojban names.
24 Jan 2010 05:24:20 < Twey> lindar: Yeah
24 Jan 2010 05:24:26 < lindar> Neato.
24 Jan 2010 05:24:28 < vensa> Melvar: I think you need a "ko'u" after the "carvi"
24 Jan 2010 05:24:42 < lindar> Oh Twey, could you quickly demonstrate {ki} for me? I'm still not totally hip on its usage.
24 Jan 2010 05:24:51 < Melvar> jbofi'e says I don’t.
24 Jan 2010 05:25:25 < Twey> lindar: mi puki zvati lo zdani .i cliva
24 Jan 2010 05:25:34 < Melvar> And I assume you meant “ku'o”.
24 Jan 2010 05:25:41 < vensa> Melvar: maybe you don't GRAMATICALLY. but I think semanticly you do
24 Jan 2010 05:26:23 < vensa> oops my bad
24 Jan 2010 05:26:27 < vensa> you actually don't
24 Jan 2010 05:26:30 < vensa> that's interesting
24 Jan 2010 05:26:42 < vensa> "na" functions as "cu"/.....
24 Jan 2010 05:27:27 < vensa> Melvar: obviously you're very good at Lojban, so why the lack of confidence :)
24 Jan 2010 05:28:12 < Melvar> Me? Good at Lojban?
24 Jan 2010 05:28:15 < vensa> doi la'oi LogicalDash ma pu klacpe do
24 Jan 2010 05:28:23 < vensa> Melvar: apparently :)
24 Jan 2010 05:28:29 < vensa> it's a compliment
24 Jan 2010 05:28:34 < vensa> just shut up ant take it :P
24 Jan 2010 05:28:57  * vensa is outraged by the "lindarness" that has rubbed off on him
24 Jan 2010 05:29:00 < vensa> u'u
24 Jan 2010 05:29:14 < lindar> <3
24 Jan 2010 05:29:43 < vensa> lindarness - now there's a lujvo
24 Jan 2010 05:29:55 < vensa> how would you take a cmevla and make it into a "ness"?
24 Jan 2010 05:30:09 < vensa> lo ka la lindar ?
24 Jan 2010 05:30:39 < timonator> lo ka me la lindar
24 Jan 2010 05:30:41 < lindar> That doesn't have a selbri.
24 Jan 2010 05:30:46 < lindar> There we go.
24 Jan 2010 05:30:47 < vensa> thanks timos
24 Jan 2010 05:30:55 < LogicalDash> .y ma klacpe mi la ibu.ry.cy. pe la lojban .i .uanai ju'oru'e mi klacpe mi
24 Jan 2010 05:31:16 < vensa> mi banli lo ka me la lindar
24 Jan 2010 05:31:51 < Melvar> Does a quote sumti end at the end of the quote?
24 Jan 2010 05:31:54 < lindar> HEAVY METAL SUCKS AND ROCK N' ROLL IS DEAD
24 Jan 2010 05:32:01 < lindar> Quote sumti?
24 Jan 2010 05:32:54 < Melvar> A sumti consisting (mainly, perhaps) of quoted text.
24 Jan 2010 05:33:01 < LogicalDash> when you surround stuff with {lu...li'u} it becomes a sumti, yes?
24 Jan 2010 05:33:07 < lindar> Ooooooooohhhh....
24 Jan 2010 05:33:20 < lindar> Yes, it does end at the end of the quote.
24 Jan 2010 05:34:12 < vensa> LogicalDash: did you intend "makau"?
24 Jan 2010 05:34:27 < LogicalDash> probably
24 Jan 2010 05:34:29 < LogicalDash> yeah
24 Jan 2010 05:34:32 < vensa> cool
24 Jan 2010 05:34:33 < Melvar> so “zo gismu gismu” means “’
24 Jan 2010 05:34:38 < Melvar> su
24 Jan 2010 05:34:46 < LogicalDash> It was malglico from a movie in English
24 Jan 2010 05:34:52 < timonator> lo KA ME LA LIN DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
24 Jan 2010 05:34:58  * timonator fireballs vensa in the face
24 Jan 2010 05:35:22 < vensa> huh?
24 Jan 2010 05:35:23 < Melvar> So “zo gismu gismu” means “‘gismu’ is a gismu”?
24 Jan 2010 05:35:23 < vensa> did
24 Jan 2010 05:35:29 < vensa> did I say somethin worng?
24 Jan 2010 05:35:38 -!- AngusRF [n=AngusRF@p5B08508C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Don't let gravity get you down"]
24 Jan 2010 05:35:44 < vensa> Melvar: IMO yes
24 Jan 2010 05:36:21 < Melvar> This makes “gismu” autological in a lojbanic way.
24 Jan 2010 05:36:50  * vensa protects from the fireball witrh an anti-matter spell
24 Jan 2010 05:36:59 < vensa> "to'e saiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii"
24 Jan 2010 05:37:20 < lindar> zo cmavo gismu
24 Jan 2010 05:37:20 < lindar> xD
24 Jan 2010 05:37:25 < vensa> Melvar: zo valsi vals <-- so what?
24 Jan 2010 05:37:34 < vensa> {valsi valsi}
24 Jan 2010 05:37:36 < Melvar> We can define lojbanic autologicity to mean that a brivla’s quote suffices for its first place.
24 Jan 2010 05:39:20 < lindar> I'm not sure you're right about that, but I don't actually know 100% what you're trying to say, so I'm going to pass on this one.
24 Jan 2010 05:39:30  * vensa cecla lo to'e mlatu  fa'a la timonator
24 Jan 2010 05:39:37 < timonator> ue cai
24 Jan 2010 05:39:47  * timonator spoja lo gerku
24 Jan 2010 05:40:08 < lindar> xD!
24 Jan 2010 05:40:24 < vensa> timos: the opposite of a cat is NOT a dog
24 Jan 2010 05:40:29 < timonator> u'i sai
24 Jan 2010 05:40:33 < vensa> it's an anti-cat (antimatter cat)
24 Jan 2010 05:41:06 < Melvar> Autological, of a word, means that it describes itself, informally.
24 Jan 2010 05:42:02 < vensa> timonator: this comes out of an argument (one of countless arguments) with lindar on "what is the systematic way to define the opposite of a gismu/lujvo"
24 Jan 2010 05:42:25 < Twey> se'iski
24 Jan 2010 05:42:30 < lindar> I don't actually think we argued about that one. I just kinda said I didn't know what it was and left it at that.
24 Jan 2010 05:42:34 < lindar> Anti-cat.
24 Jan 2010 05:42:35 < Twey> (not limited to words)
24 Jan 2010 05:43:17 < vensa> ki'a se'iski
24 Jan 2010 05:43:43 < vensa> za'e se'iski
24 Jan 2010 05:43:46 < lindar> sevzi zei skicu
24 Jan 2010 05:44:02 < vensa> ahh
24 Jan 2010 05:44:06 < Twey> .i ku'i xu zo se'iski se'iski zo'o pau-ru'e
24 Jan 2010 05:44:08 < vensa> well it's not in the dictionary
24 Jan 2010 05:44:24 < vensa> na go'i
24 Jan 2010 05:45:33 < Melvar> ka ce'u me la'e ce'u
24 Jan 2010 05:46:40 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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24 Jan 2010 05:49:01 < vensa> I forgot what "ce'u" means (even in a simple sentence) so Im giving up on understanding the above
24 Jan 2010 05:49:24 < Melvar> It’s the variable in the “ka”-lambda.
24 Jan 2010 05:49:33 < vensa> huh
24 Jan 2010 05:49:39 < vensa> can you use it in the simplest of sentences?
24 Jan 2010 05:50:42 < vensa> wait... on second thought.. maybe I just haven't learned it yet... I was probably thinking of cu'e
24 Jan 2010 05:51:07 < Melvar> .i lo broda cu ckaji loka ce'u broda
24 Jan 2010 05:51:37 < vensa> broda isn't helping
24 Jan 2010 05:51:40 < vensa> but thanks for trying
24 Jan 2010 05:51:57 < Melvar> Things that are broda exhibit the quality that they are broda.
24 Jan 2010 05:52:12 < vensa> you mean....
24 Jan 2010 05:52:26 < vensa> lo ninmu cu ckaji loka ce'u melbi
24 Jan 2010 05:52:36 < vensa> (assuming that's a true statement)
24 Jan 2010 05:52:50 < vensa> (for example)
24 Jan 2010 05:53:17 < vensa> or better yet:
24 Jan 2010 05:53:24 < lindar> brodV is just a generic selbri we can use for demonstrative purposes. We have five of them. =D
24 Jan 2010 05:53:27 < vensa> lo ninmu cu ckaji loka gleki ce'yu
24 Jan 2010 05:53:30 < vensa> si ce'u
24 Jan 2010 05:53:41 < vensa> lindar: I know what broda is
24 Jan 2010 05:53:54 < lindar> <3
24 Jan 2010 05:53:56 < vensa> I was just saying that it's not helping me understand the example because it's o so general nature
24 Jan 2010 05:54:15 < vensa> lo ninmu cu ckaji loka gleki ce'u
24 Jan 2010 05:54:18 < vensa> is that good?
24 Jan 2010 05:54:25 < Melvar> I find it helps me to understand some things because of its oh-so-general nature.
24 Jan 2010 05:54:39 < vensa> for saying that "women are characterized by the property of mi being happy by them"
24 Jan 2010 05:55:15 < vensa> because just using it in x1 seems senseless
24 Jan 2010 05:55:18 < timonator> the mi is missing
24 Jan 2010 05:55:43 < vensa> lo ninmu cu ckaji loka ce'u melbi  <--> different how from <--> lo ninmu cu ckaji loka melbi
24 Jan 2010 05:55:45 < vensa> timos: right
24 Jan 2010 05:55:52 < vensa> lo ninmu cu ckaji loka mi gleki ce'u
24 Jan 2010 05:56:37 < Melvar> Well, like “ke'a”, “ce'u” by default fills the first open place.
24 Jan 2010 05:57:11 < Melvar> If it shouldn’t, you have to say it.
24 Jan 2010 05:57:34 < Twey> The difference is that ce'u does so explicitly
24 Jan 2010 05:57:35 < vensa> good. that's what I supposed
24 Jan 2010 05:57:45 < Twey> The default for ke'a is merely speaker convention
24 Jan 2010 05:57:47 < vensa> so you see how your broda example wasnt helpful
24 Jan 2010 05:58:14 < Melvar> It was the simplest of sentences I could think up at a moment’s notice.
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24 Jan 2010 06:03:52 < lindar> Hey, it's lo pendo be la donri!
24 Jan 2010 06:03:54  * lindar waves.
24 Jan 2010 06:04:00 < lindar> I still don't really know who you are.
24 Jan 2010 06:05:21 -!- aluink [n=aluink@c-67-167-174-234.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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24 Jan 2010 06:06:17 < vensa> darn... I got discoed... what'd I miss?
24 Jan 2010 06:06:20 < Melvar> .i xu lu na'e se'iski li'u na'e se'iski
24 Jan 2010 06:06:52 < vensa> I see we're still trying to create "cool" sentences for fun
24 Jan 2010 06:07:27 < lindar> Indeed.
24 Jan 2010 06:07:29 < vensa> lo mlatu cu mlatu lo lo mlatu mlatu
24 Jan 2010 06:07:54 < Twey> It's a popular jbopre pastime.
24 Jan 2010 06:07:59 < vensa> si ku mlatu
24 Jan 2010 06:08:18 < Melvar> .i xu pausai lu na'e se'iski li'u na'e se'iski
24 Jan 2010 06:08:23 < lindar> lo cumla cu mlatu lo tumla
24 Jan 2010 06:08:45 < vensa> uasai
24 Jan 2010 06:09:10 < vensa> (or some better attitudinal describe the "lightbulb" light-up of "I have an idea")
24 Jan 2010 06:09:20 < lindar> If you gents would like to define se'iski, I'd be glad to add it to jbovlaste (assuming the definition is decent and has merit for use).
24 Jan 2010 06:09:50 < Melvar> I’m not yet sure whether it’s the best word.
24 Jan 2010 06:10:01 < vensa> xu su'o do djica lonu kelci la reno preti
24 Jan 2010 06:10:29 < vensa> lindar: that would be good cause for more crazy sentence throwing
24 Jan 2010 06:11:04 < lindar> .yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy... .i milxe djica
24 Jan 2010 06:11:13 < vensa> .ui
24 Jan 2010 06:11:38 < vensa> mi pensi le jmive
24 Jan 2010 06:11:46 < Melvar> …Since autological words do not agentively describe themselves.
24 Jan 2010 06:12:04 < vensa> Melvar: are you a linguist?
24 Jan 2010 06:12:49 < lindar> "<vensa> mi pensi le jmive" You say some really weird things sometimes.
24 Jan 2010 06:13:13 < lindar> 'I think about the living thing(s).'
24 Jan 2010 06:13:14 < vensa> si si lo jmive
24 Jan 2010 06:13:20 < vensa> sa
24 Jan 2010 06:13:26 < vensa> mi pensi lo jmive goi ko'a
24 Jan 2010 06:13:30 < vensa> there we go :)
24 Jan 2010 06:13:32 < lindar> ...
24 Jan 2010 06:13:36 < Melvar> doi vensa, inhowfar?
24 Jan 2010 06:13:36 < vensa> long time since I played :)
24 Jan 2010 06:13:45 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 06:13:51 < vensa> melvar: guhhhh?
24 Jan 2010 06:13:53 < lindar> Are we playing now?
24 Jan 2010 06:13:57 < vensa> ya!
24 Jan 2010 06:14:10 < lindar> Then your statement is very unusual.
24 Jan 2010 06:14:24 < vensa> I am contemplating a living organism - lets call it ko'a
24 Jan 2010 06:14:37 < vensa> (that makes it easier for you guys to ask questions)
24 Jan 2010 06:15:02 < Melvar> By profession, study, hobby, knowledge, etc.?
24 Jan 2010 06:15:10 < lindar> Ahhhhh... Okay, I thought you were trying to say {.i mi pensi lo li'i jmive} or something.
24 Jan 2010 06:15:18 < vensa> melvar: whichever? are you any of those?
24 Jan 2010 06:15:24 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 06:15:53 < vensa> it's ok lindar. we all make mistakes <3
24 Jan 2010 06:15:53 < lindar> .i xu ko'a spati
24 Jan 2010 06:16:09 < vensa> na go'i to pa toi
24 Jan 2010 06:16:15 < timonator> i xu ko'a spitaki
24 Jan 2010 06:16:37 < vensa> timos: are you being funny?
24 Jan 2010 06:16:44 < vensa> or do you really want to waste a question for the group on thatr?
24 Jan 2010 06:16:49 < Melvar> As a hobby, somewhat. As studying, I am a mathemagician.
24 Jan 2010 06:17:06 < vensa> Melvar: cool. can you do a magic trick for me?
24 Jan 2010 06:17:16 < timonator> huh?
24 Jan 2010 06:17:18 < Melvar> Sure.
24 Jan 2010 06:17:24 < vensa> Melvar: something like I pick a number and you make it become prime
24 Jan 2010 06:17:33 < lindar> .i xu ko'a mabru
24 Jan 2010 06:17:47 < vensa> go'i to re toi
24 Jan 2010 06:18:04 < vensa> timos: you wanna ask if it's a "parrot" so early on, b4 asking things b4 that?
24 Jan 2010 06:18:11 < vensa> we just learned it's a mammal
24 Jan 2010 06:18:14 < vensa> so bye-bye birdy :)
24 Jan 2010 06:18:44 < Melvar> Consider sets that contain themselves, and those that do not. Does the set of all sets that do not contain themselves contain itself?
24 Jan 2010 06:18:57 < timonator> huh?
24 Jan 2010 06:19:02 < vensa> u'ecai..... awwww..
24 Jan 2010 06:19:10  * vensa pretends to be amazed
24 Jan 2010 06:19:19 < timonator> oh are we playing a game?
24 Jan 2010 06:19:25 < Melvar> It neither does, nor does not.
24 Jan 2010 06:19:27 < vensa> yeah!
24 Jan 2010 06:19:38 < lindar> Playing 20 questions.
24 Jan 2010 06:19:49 < vensa> lindars winning (for a change) :P
24 Jan 2010 06:20:01 < lindar> .i xu ko'a citka lo rectu po'o
24 Jan 2010 06:20:10 < vensa> na go'i to ci toi
24 Jan 2010 06:21:00 < lindar> .i xu ko'a cmalu fi lo remna
24 Jan 2010 06:21:30 < vensa> na go'i to vo toi
24 Jan 2010 06:22:25 < lindar> .i xu ko'a xabju lo bemro
24 Jan 2010 06:23:07 < vensa> pe'i na go'i to mu toi
24 Jan 2010 06:23:21 < vensa> don't anyone else have questions?
24 Jan 2010 06:23:45 < lindar> TIMO COME PLAY WITH US
24 Jan 2010 06:24:08 < vensa> lindar: I should probably tell you before you kill me
24 Jan 2010 06:24:26 < vensa> it's not "smaller" than a human
24 Jan 2010 06:24:32 < vensa> because it "is" a human
24 Jan 2010 06:24:44 < vensa> trick question
24 Jan 2010 06:24:46 < vensa> carry on
24 Jan 2010 06:24:51 < lindar> pfffft. You just gave it away. You ruined it!
24 Jan 2010 06:25:00 < vensa> I didn't want you to kill me later
24 Jan 2010 06:25:02 < lindar> It's Zamenhoff.
24 Jan 2010 06:25:05 < vensa> you still have to guess "who"
24 Jan 2010 06:25:11 < vensa> who's Zamenhoff
24 Jan 2010 06:25:28 -!- killerboy [n=mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit ["leaving"]
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24 Jan 2010 06:25:43 < lindar> About this sound Esperanto (help·info) is the most widely spoken constructed international auxiliary language.[2] Its name derives from Doktoro Esperanto, the pseudonym under which L. L. Zamenhof published the first book detailing Esperanto, the Unua Libro, in 1887.
24 Jan 2010 06:26:08 < vensa> ok.. well it's not Zamenhoff
24 Jan 2010 06:26:14 < lindar> =P
24 Jan 2010 06:26:14 < vensa> should I count that as a question?
24 Jan 2010 06:26:16 < vensa> :P
24 Jan 2010 06:26:25 < lindar> It's already blown because you ruuuuuuuiiiiiiiined it.
24 Jan 2010 06:26:34 < vensa> no its not
24 Jan 2010 06:26:39 < vensa> it's just getting interesting
24 Jan 2010 06:26:40 < vensa> come on
24 Jan 2010 06:27:28 < lindar> .i xu ninmu
24 Jan 2010 06:27:36 < vensa> na go'i to xa toi
24 Jan 2010 06:27:59 < lindar> .i xu citno
24 Jan 2010 06:28:42 < vensa> na go'i caku (is that gramatical?)
24 Jan 2010 06:29:10 < vensa> (btw: you're forgetting ko'a)
24 Jan 2010 06:29:57 < vensa> to ze toi
24 Jan 2010 06:30:05 < lindar> (btw: do I need to keep repeating the subject every time?)
24 Jan 2010 06:30:22 < vensa> yes.. otherwise you're asking about an observsative
24 Jan 2010 06:30:35 < lindar> [citation needed]
24 Jan 2010 06:30:35 < vensa> the question we're looking for is "is IT young"
24 Jan 2010 06:30:41 < vensa> not "youngness??"
24 Jan 2010 06:30:47 < kpreid> vensa: I disagree.
24 Jan 2010 06:30:53 < vensa> who r u
24 Jan 2010 06:31:04 -!- daniskami [n=daniel@e178052142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 06:31:12 < vensa> and y rnt u playing instead of sitting on the fence and disagreeing :P
24 Jan 2010 06:31:15 < kpreid> the notion of observative is generally considered unnecessary and deprecated.
24 Jan 2010 06:31:23 < vensa> huh
24 Jan 2010 06:32:08 < kpreid> "xu ninmu" is a perfectly fine way of asking "is (whatever is obvious from context) a woman"
24 Jan 2010 06:32:18 < vensa> ok kpreid
24 Jan 2010 06:32:27 < vensa> I accept the interjection
24 Jan 2010 06:32:30 < vensa> now play with us
24 Jan 2010 06:32:32 < lindar> 1-0 =D
24 Jan 2010 06:32:39 < vensa> go lindar go lindar
24 Jan 2010 06:32:39 < kpreid> (Well, "ninmu xu" would be better; remember that {xu} is a UI and as such attaches to the *previous word*'s construct.
24 Jan 2010 06:32:42 < kpreid> )
24 Jan 2010 06:33:51 < vensa> do I hear the eighth question?
24 Jan 2010 06:33:52 < lindar> .i xu mencre
24 Jan 2010 06:34:12 < vensa> go'i to bi toi
24 Jan 2010 06:34:27 < lindar> .i xu lojbo
24 Jan 2010 06:34:39 < vensa> na go'i to so toi
24 Jan 2010 06:35:29 < lindar> .i xu cmaci prenu
24 Jan 2010 06:36:19 < vensa> go'i ji'i
24 Jan 2010 06:36:27 < vensa> to pano toi
24 Jan 2010 06:36:52 < vensa> ji'a cmaci prenu
24 Jan 2010 06:37:09 < vensa> na (mainly) cmaci prnu
24 Jan 2010 06:37:16 < vensa> (how would I say that?)
24 Jan 2010 06:38:13 < vensa> na camci prenu ra'u  (?)
24 Jan 2010 06:38:28 < lindar> Not a clue. My brain isn't working this late.
24 Jan 2010 06:38:59 < lindar> Write it down for later.
24 Jan 2010 06:39:02 < vensa> k
24 Jan 2010 06:39:34 < lindar> .i xu nelci lo skami
24 Jan 2010 06:41:03 < lindar> ((Also, probably with mleca or something... dunno! Less cmaci-prenu-ness?))
24 Jan 2010 06:41:10 < vensa> la'a na go'i to le skami na se finti ca tu'a ko'a toi
24 Jan 2010 06:41:20 < vensa> to papa toi
24 Jan 2010 06:41:45 < vensa> (that was a hint, providing I said it right)
24 Jan 2010 06:41:54 < lindar> <3
24 Jan 2010 06:42:04 < lindar> Parfek.
24 Jan 2010 06:42:22 < vensa> Tenk Yu
24 Jan 2010 06:42:30 < vensa> merci boquoe
24 Jan 2010 06:42:36 < vensa> or some overspelled french words
24 Jan 2010 06:42:52 < lindar> .i xu latmo
24 Jan 2010 06:43:14 < vensa> na go'i to pare toi
24 Jan 2010 06:43:21 -!- rossi [n=rossi@HSI-KBW-082-212-032-082.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 06:43:30 < lindar> ((beaucoup))
24 Jan 2010 06:43:45 < vensa> no, you're a buttercup <3
24 Jan 2010 06:43:56 < lindar> xD
24 Jan 2010 06:44:22 < lindar> .i xu ropno
24 Jan 2010 06:44:36 < vensa> go'i to poci toi
24 Jan 2010 06:44:44 < vensa> si si paci toi
24 Jan 2010 06:45:00 < vensa> (perhaps si si si)
24 Jan 2010 06:45:34 < lindar> .i xu xelso
24 Jan 2010 06:45:54 < vensa> na go'i
24 Jan 2010 06:45:58 < vensa> to pavo toi
24 Jan 2010 06:46:03 < lindar> .i xu dotco
24 Jan 2010 06:46:08 < vensa> (you're running out of questions. want a hint?)
24 Jan 2010 06:46:15 < vensa> how about
24 Jan 2010 06:46:20 < vensa> I  just tell you the nationality
24 Jan 2010 06:46:27 < lindar> >_> Sure.
24 Jan 2010 06:46:31 < vensa> glico
24 Jan 2010 06:46:48 < lindar> .i xu finti loi zgike
24 Jan 2010 06:47:04 < vensa> na go'i to pamu toi
24 Jan 2010 06:47:41 < lindar> .i xu se cmene la'o gy. Allan Turing .gy.
24 Jan 2010 06:47:49 < vensa> come on....
24 Jan 2010 06:47:53 < vensa> it's not turing
24 Jan 2010 06:47:56 < vensa> and I'm not counting that
24 Jan 2010 06:48:00 < lindar> WTF THEN!!
24 Jan 2010 06:48:05 < vensa> and I'm hoping you got the earlier hint
24 Jan 2010 06:48:10 < lindar> I'm not -that- educated.
24 Jan 2010 06:48:20 < vensa> which said merely that computers hadent been invented yet during his lifetime
24 Jan 2010 06:48:40 < lindar> Yeah, and Turing's time didn't have computers.
24 Jan 2010 06:48:55 < lindar> I give. >_>
24 Jan 2010 06:49:34 < vensa> ok here's a hint
24 Jan 2010 06:50:04 < vensa> ko'a srana lo plise
24 Jan 2010 06:50:48 < lindar> >_>
24 Jan 2010 06:51:18 < lindar> It's either James T. Kirk or Isaac Newton.
24 Jan 2010 06:51:38 < vensa> the latter.. hoorah! :)
24 Jan 2010 06:51:45  * lindar is lame.
24 Jan 2010 06:51:55 < vensa> no he's not
24 Jan 2010 06:52:02 < lindar> MY TURN TO BE MEAN AND YOU ASK!!
24 Jan 2010 06:52:10 < vensa> lindar just needs some sleep
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24 Jan 2010 06:53:20 < lindar> .i mi xarpei lo dacti
24 Jan 2010 06:53:44 < vensa> i though you wanted to go to sleep
24 Jan 2010 06:54:07 < lindar> Nope.
24 Jan 2010 06:54:54 < Melvar> .i xu lo'i ro selcmi poi ke'a cmima ke'a cu selcmi vo'a
24 Jan 2010 06:55:02 < vensa> but my pleasure
24 Jan 2010 06:55:53 < vensa> melvar: is that the lojban phrasing of your earlier magic tirck?
24 Jan 2010 06:56:02 < Melvar> Yes.
24 Jan 2010 06:56:03 < lindar> Melvar, I have no idea what you just said, but I'm going to sleep now. >_______>
24 Jan 2010 06:56:14 < lindar> ((It was a rock. I was thinking of a rock.))
24 Jan 2010 06:56:15 -!- lindar [n=lindarth@rrcs-173-196-20-139.west.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Hah, internet."]
24 Jan 2010 06:56:32 < vensa> wtf?!
24 Jan 2010 06:56:39 < vensa> I thought he wanted to be mean :(
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24 Jan 2010 06:57:13 < vensa> coisai feliks
24 Jan 2010 06:57:17 < Melvar> “Does the set of the sets (of members) (restrictive-)which are members of themselves have as a member itself?
24 Jan 2010 06:57:27 < feliks> coi rodo
24 Jan 2010 06:57:34 < vensa> Melvar: the very thought is giving me a headache
24 Jan 2010 06:57:41 < vensa> doi feliks ma nuzba
24 Jan 2010 07:01:12 < Melvar> Is it possible to attach an “itself” using a “be”?
24 Jan 2010 07:01:38 < Melvar> Then the sentence could be shortened.
24 Jan 2010 07:02:11 < feliks> .u'i doi vensa noda nuzba stici (is that correct? <<nothing new in the west)
24 Jan 2010 07:02:27 < vensa> melvar: looks like it's possible (t le xruti be vo'a parses)
24 Jan 2010 07:02:34 < feliks> forgot a cu i guess
24 Jan 2010 07:03:25 < Melvar> Yes, but wouldn’t “vo'a” there refer to the first position of the outer bridi?
24 Jan 2010 07:03:36 < vensa> feliks: you prob need "fi le stici"
24 Jan 2010 07:03:56 < vensa> the fi puts it in the x3 place (source) and the le makes it into a sumti "the west"
24 Jan 2010 07:04:15 < vensa> you don't need cu after da
24 Jan 2010 07:04:38 < vensa> <makfa> [(le /the/ {xruti /return-er(s)/ be / / ([xruti2 (returned thing(s)):] vo'a /x1 it/) BE'O} KU / /) VAU / /]
24 Jan 2010 07:04:44 < vensa> melvar: apparently not.
24 Jan 2010 07:04:47 < vensa> but I'm not a big expert
24 Jan 2010 07:04:53 < feliks> ah thanks
24 Jan 2010 07:05:31 < vensa> timonator: what say you to "vo'a" in a "be" clause?
24 Jan 2010 07:05:45 -!- AngusRF [n=AngusRF@p5B08508C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Don't let gravity get you down"]
24 Jan 2010 07:05:47 < vensa> or kpreid for that matter?
24 Jan 2010 07:06:30 < timonator> vo'a always refers to the outermost bridi
24 Jan 2010 07:06:39 < vensa> meaning?
24 Jan 2010 07:07:02 < vensa> what does "le xruti be vo'a cu zvati" mean?
24 Jan 2010 07:07:24 < vensa> "the returner is here"?
24 Jan 2010 07:07:26 < kpreid> The self-returner is present
24 Jan 2010 07:07:29 < vensa> good
24 Jan 2010 07:07:40 < vensa> so it seems to work well Melvar
24 Jan 2010 07:07:43 < Melvar> “le xruti be le xruti be le xruti be le xruti…”
24 Jan 2010 07:07:55 < vensa> (not that I understand your original sentence. but go for it)
24 Jan 2010 07:07:58 < kpreid> Note that that's not because vo'a refers to the x1 of xruti there, but rather the x1 of zvati (which happen to be the same)
24 Jan 2010 07:08:26 < vensa> huh?
24 Jan 2010 07:08:29 < kpreid> Melvar: No. In that sentence, each sumti "le xruti ..." could be referring to a different thing. In the self-referential one, that is not the case.
24 Jan 2010 07:08:43 < vensa> mi zvati le zdani pe le xruti be vo'a =:> means what?
24 Jan 2010 07:09:15 < feliks> i was wondering how to say 'electronic' as opposed to 'electric' (engineering)
24 Jan 2010 07:09:19 < kpreid> vensa: "I am at my returner's house"
24 Jan 2010 07:09:22 < Melvar> “vo'a” would have to refer to “mi”.
24 Jan 2010 07:09:37 < kpreid> that is, that-which-returns-me
24 Jan 2010 07:09:46 < vensa> hmmm
24 Jan 2010 07:09:52 < vensa> vo'a refering to "mi"
24 Jan 2010 07:09:53 < vensa> ?
24 Jan 2010 07:09:55 < kpreid> Yes.
24 Jan 2010 07:09:58 < vensa> hmmm
24 Jan 2010 07:10:11 < vensa> interesting
24 Jan 2010 07:10:30 < Melvar> What I am looking for is a shorter way to say “the set of all sets that are members of themselves”.
24 Jan 2010 07:10:40 < feliks> i got {dicyskegu'a} for 'electric scientist', but i want 'electronic engineer'
24 Jan 2010 07:11:25 < Melvar> I have “lo'i ro selcmi poi ke'a cmima ke'a [ku'o]”
24 Jan 2010 07:11:45 < kpreid> Melvar: Thinking...
24 Jan 2010 07:12:27 < kpreid> ro da poi cmima da ku'o
24 Jan 2010 07:12:32 < vensa> lo skezu'e be dikca
24 Jan 2010 07:12:44 < vensa> feliks: how about lo skezu'e be dikca
24 Jan 2010 07:13:04 < kpreid> Key thing being that if you use a {da}-family word, it's *automatically* quantified and a reusable variable as you want.
24 Jan 2010 07:13:16 < kpreid> Wait, that's not a *set* though.
24 Jan 2010 07:13:52 < vensa> feliks: btw: I fail to find your word (dicyskegu'a) in the dictionary
24 Jan 2010 07:13:54 < kpreid> lu'i ro da poi cmima da ku'o
24 Jan 2010 07:13:55 < feliks> the lujvo list has zbaske for engineering
24 Jan 2010 07:13:56 < kpreid> That is.
24 Jan 2010 07:14:09 < feliks> i made it up
24 Jan 2010 07:14:15 < kpreid> (lu'i = the set whose members are...)
24 Jan 2010 07:14:37 < vensa> zbaske is is the engineering/technology
24 Jan 2010 07:14:53 < vensa> feliks: you can't just "make up" lujvo and have them mean something
24 Jan 2010 07:14:55 < Melvar> I just used “lo'i”, is that wrong?
24 Jan 2010 07:15:01 < feliks> then dicyzbaske should be electric engineering, not?
24 Jan 2010 07:15:24 < vensa> it COULD be perhaps. but you need to define it
24 Jan 2010 07:15:40 < kpreid> Melvar: lo'i and lu'i are different
24 Jan 2010 07:15:41 < vensa> until it's defined you need to use a tanru, or say za'e
24 Jan 2010 07:16:12 < vensa> feliks: what's the full tanru that you have used for this jujvo?
24 Jan 2010 07:16:14 < feliks> there's a lengthy chapter about how to make lujvo in the refgram, you mean that's not for diy?
24 Jan 2010 07:16:24 < vensa> and what's wrong with my suggestion
24 Jan 2010 07:16:30 < Melvar> Yes, “lo'i” is the veridical set descriptor, “lu'i” is the set converter.
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24 Jan 2010 07:17:10 < vensa> I dunno what diy is
24 Jan 2010 07:17:10 < feliks> dikce skegu'a
24 Jan 2010 07:17:11 < kpreid> Melvar: lu'i (selma'o LAhE) converts a whole sumti, lo'i (selma'o LE) is an article (I forget the exact terminology) which introduces a selbri-based sumti
24 Jan 2010 07:17:20 < feliks> diy = do it yourself
24 Jan 2010 07:17:25 < kpreid> For example, I can say "lu'i ko'a".
24 Jan 2010 07:17:34 < vensa> but that chapter is meant for ppl who want to develop lujvo and perhaps post them for recognition
24 Jan 2010 07:17:43 < vensa> you can propose a lujvo on jbofi'e I believe
24 Jan 2010 07:17:52 < feliks> ic
24 Jan 2010 07:18:03 < vensa> you could porbably also be understood when using an "undefined" lujvo
24 Jan 2010 07:18:04 < kpreid> there's nothing wrong with making lujvo up on the spot, as long as you do it well
24 Jan 2010 07:18:10 < vensa> but you shouldnt count on it
24 Jan 2010 07:18:16 < vensa> so IMO you're better off using a tanru
24 Jan 2010 07:18:20 < kpreid> but the *expectation* is that lujvo invewntions should be designed to last
24 Jan 2010 07:18:32 < vensa> or using za'e
24 Jan 2010 07:18:40 < kpreid> yes, za'e, or just using tanru
24 Jan 2010 07:18:43 < vensa> usually u won't be making up "lujvo" on the spot, anyway
24 Jan 2010 07:18:44 < feliks> ok
24 Jan 2010 07:19:26 < feliks> anyways, i haven't found anything i could combine to express 'electronic' (not electric, not computer)
24 Jan 2010 07:19:30 < vensa> however, it's nice that you learned about making lujvo. there alot of words out there that could use being lojbanized
24 Jan 2010 07:19:53 < vensa> feliks: perhaps I myself dont understand the diff between electric and electronic
24 Jan 2010 07:20:03 < kpreid> feliks: the category 'electronic' is arguably not a very natural category.
24 Jan 2010 07:20:05 < Melvar> Doesn’t “lo'i <q> <s>” end up being the same as “lu'i <q> lo <s>”?
24 Jan 2010 07:20:47 < vensa> kpreid: how's lo skezu'e be dikca for electical engineer?
24 Jan 2010 07:21:00 < vensa> (electronics engineer)
24 Jan 2010 07:21:09 < feliks> well, electric is more general, basic science, while electronic involves circuits usually with semiconductors
24 Jan 2010 07:21:21 < kpreid> vensa: not bad, I think, but "be dikca" -> "be lo dikca"
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24 Jan 2010 07:21:30 < vensa> right
24 Jan 2010 07:21:37 < vensa> be lo dikca
24 Jan 2010 07:21:37 < kpreid> Melvar: what kind of thing do you mean by <q>?
24 Jan 2010 07:21:45 < Melvar> A quantifier.
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24 Jan 2010 07:21:58 < kpreid> and <s> a selbri?
24 Jan 2010 07:22:07 < vensa> feliks: do you really need this complication? can you think of an "engineer of electricity" that does not use circuits etc?
24 Jan 2010 07:22:09 < Melvar> Yes.
24 Jan 2010 07:22:16 < vensa> wouldn't he just be a physicist?
24 Jan 2010 07:22:42 < kpreid> Melvar: Then largely yes, subject to caveats about how I don't grok what people are doing with the semantics of "lo" these days.
24 Jan 2010 07:22:43 < feliks> no it's really a specialized field in between
24 Jan 2010 07:22:47 < vensa> a physicist of electricity (theoretical) as opposed to an engineer of electricity (practical)
24 Jan 2010 07:22:54 < vensa> really?
24 Jan 2010 07:22:58 < feliks> and scientist is also different from engineer
24 Jan 2010 07:23:04 < vensa> what does an engineer of electricity do then?
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24 Jan 2010 07:23:22 < vensa> scientist is usually a more "theoretical" concept
24 Jan 2010 07:23:23 < feliks> an engineer applies science, does practical things
24 Jan 2010 07:23:29 < vensa> exactly
24 Jan 2010 07:23:40 < vensa> so you see how "engineer of electricity" is not a scientist
24 Jan 2010 07:24:13 < kpreid> Scientists generate knowledge, engineers apply it to make things.
24 Jan 2010 07:24:19 < vensa> exactly
24 Jan 2010 07:24:28 < feliks> maybe dicke + zbaske, somehow
24 Jan 2010 07:24:40 < vensa> that's exactly what I suggested
24 Jan 2010 07:24:53 < feliks> yes, that's as close as i got, too
24 Jan 2010 07:25:04 < feliks> but still not electronic :)
24 Jan 2010 07:25:13 < vensa> only instead of zbaske, use "skezu'e" for the engineer person instead of the technology
24 Jan 2010 07:25:25 < feliks> ah of course
24 Jan 2010 07:25:26 < vensa> feliks: you're thinking is too English
24 Jan 2010 07:25:35 < vensa> snap outr of it
24 Jan 2010 07:26:20 < vensa> there is no "electricity engineering" as opposed to "electronic engineering", hence you don't need seperate terms for the two
24 Jan 2010 07:26:37 < vensa> there is only "electricity engineer" vs "electricity scientist"
24 Jan 2010 07:26:51 < vensa> electronic is just a word
24 Jan 2010 07:26:55 < feliks> umm, what if you want to express the distinction
24 Jan 2010 07:27:16 < Twey> There's no distinction to express
24 Jan 2010 07:27:32 < Twey> The difference between ‘electronic’ and ‘electricity’ is purely one of grammar (adjective vs. noun)
24 Jan 2010 07:27:38 < feliks> they're distinct fields of study that exist as such in the university
24 Jan 2010 07:27:41 < kpreid> Twey: Um, no.
24 Jan 2010 07:28:40 < kpreid> Twey: In English, we have 'electronic' and 'electric' which have slightly different meanings.
24 Jan 2010 07:28:41 < feliks> that would be proof for sapir whorf, if you said there's no distinction because there's no word for it
24 Jan 2010 07:28:59 < vensa> lo dikca saske bo prenu na skezu'e dikca
24 Jan 2010 07:29:08 < vensa> how's that for expressing the distinction?
24 Jan 2010 07:29:24 < Twey> krici: Not in the primary sense, I think…
24 Jan 2010 07:29:26 < vensa> "an electricity scientist is not an engineer of electricity:"
24 Jan 2010 07:29:28 < Twey> Er, kpreid
24 Jan 2010 07:29:43 < vensa> I vote "no distinction"
24 Jan 2010 07:29:45 < Twey> kpreid: They're both ‘to do with electricity/electrons’
24 Jan 2010 07:29:56 < vensa> (between electronic and electric)
24 Jan 2010 07:30:08 < feliks> you vote? sheesh :)
24 Jan 2010 07:30:14 < vensa> :P
24 Jan 2010 07:30:15 < Twey> Obviously they've both acquired use in different phrases (like ‘electronic music’)
24 Jan 2010 07:30:16 < kpreid> It's like the difference between, oh, I don't know, hair and fur.
24 Jan 2010 07:30:22 < vensa> an electron is a particle of electricity
24 Jan 2010 07:30:24 < vensa> same same
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24 Jan 2010 07:30:36 < Twey> kpreid: And what's the difference between hair and fur?
24 Jan 2010 07:30:40 < vensa> another interesting question
24 Jan 2010 07:30:46 < vensa> yeah kpreid: what is the diff?
24 Jan 2010 07:30:47 < kpreid> I'm not sure, actually.
24 Jan 2010 07:30:52 < vensa> lmao
24 Jan 2010 07:30:53 < kpreid> Sorry, bad example :)
24 Jan 2010 07:30:55 < Twey> Hehe
24 Jan 2010 07:31:06 < feliks> it's not about the 'electron', despite the name sounds like that. it's about circuits
24 Jan 2010 07:31:22 < Twey> The only difference is in nuance and common uses
24 Jan 2010 07:31:29 < Twey> They're essentially the same
24 Jan 2010 07:31:40 < Twey> feliks: That's still to do with electrons…
24 Jan 2010 07:31:47 < Twey> Circuits are a means of routing electrons
24 Jan 2010 07:31:56 < Twey> And using them to do work
24 Jan 2010 07:32:17 < vensa> Twey: feliks just wants to distinguish himself from the "less valuable" scientist who just study electricity
24 Jan 2010 07:32:24 < feliks> i studied the stuff. i know which is which
24 Jan 2010 07:32:35 < feliks> there's no connotation of 'less valuable'
24 Jan 2010 07:32:41 < feliks> just a different field of expertise
24 Jan 2010 07:32:44 < vensa> that was just a joke :)
24 Jan 2010 07:32:50 < feliks> i know ;)\
24 Jan 2010 07:33:02 < vensa> I thinking the "practical" sense is the difference you're looking for
24 Jan 2010 07:33:22 < vensa> explain to me how there could be a "practical" use of "electricity" that is not "electronic engineering"?
24 Jan 2010 07:33:35 < feliks> an electrician
24 Jan 2010 07:33:57 < feliks> he makes circuits, but not electronic ones
24 Jan 2010 07:34:30 < feliks> the electronic engineer is the one who knows what's inside the black boxes that the electrician plugs
24 Jan 2010 07:34:48 < feliks> but he's not a scientist
24 Jan 2010 07:34:57 < vensa> ok...
24 Jan 2010 07:35:05 < vensa> but the word for "engineer" makes that distinction
24 Jan 2010 07:35:14 < vensa> an engineer is a "science actor" if you will
24 Jan 2010 07:35:19 < vensa> he acts with the knowledge of science
24 Jan 2010 07:35:22 < feliks> yes
24 Jan 2010 07:35:29 < vensa> an electrician probably doesn't have a university degree
24 Jan 2010 07:36:12 < feliks> the question is, how do you distinguish in lojban an electric curcuit from an electronic circuit
24 Jan 2010 07:36:24 < vensa> what?!
24 Jan 2010 07:36:35 < vensa> first explain the diff to me
24 Jan 2010 07:36:40 < feliks> in english those words have implications that need not be spoken out
24 Jan 2010 07:36:47 < feliks> i tried above
24 Jan 2010 07:36:47 < vensa> is the "size" the diff?
24 Jan 2010 07:37:03 < feliks> the parts involved are the main diff
24 Jan 2010 07:37:04 < vensa> is the use of "semi conductors"?
24 Jan 2010 07:37:20 < vensa> give me an example of an electric circuit please
24 Jan 2010 07:37:31 < vensa> and then an example of an "electronic" circuit
24 Jan 2010 07:37:45 < feliks> usually yes, there's a further distinction between 'active curcuits' with semiconductors and passive ones without, but that goes too far now
24 Jan 2010 07:37:46 < nonporous> electric circuit sounds like a very general term, electronic circuit sounds like it refers to a lot of small components on a circuit board or something
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24 Jan 2010 07:38:15 < feliks> @nonporous, yes that's basically it
24 Jan 2010 07:38:23 < nonporous> i see
24 Jan 2010 07:38:32 < vensa> feliks: I'm guessing no lojban has yet treaded into the world of electronics to define the proper terms
24 Jan 2010 07:38:40 < vensa> but I suppose you could probably define them
24 Jan 2010 07:39:06 < feliks> i tried, i just found nothing to combine that would express it
24 Jan 2010 07:39:12 < vensa> I still don't see why you would "need" to distinguish the two
24 Jan 2010 07:39:17 < feliks> not even in a tanru
24 Jan 2010 07:39:23 < vensa> but if you do then you know what the distinction is
24 Jan 2010 07:39:40 < vensa> feliks: first you have to be able to really understand the difference you want to express
24 Jan 2010 07:40:14 < vensa> is it: "stuff on a circuit board" as opposed to "stuff NOT on a circuit board"?
24 Jan 2010 07:40:22 < feliks> well, i myself do. the buillding blocks i found so far don't fit
24 Jan 2010 07:40:28 < vensa> obviously there's a clearer defined distinction
24 Jan 2010 07:40:30 < vensa> what is it?
24 Jan 2010 07:41:06 < feliks> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics
24 Jan 2010 07:41:06 < vensa> feliks: you still haven't explained to me in a sussaint sentence, the definition of electronic
24 Jan 2010 07:41:31 < feliks> why didn't i go there before, the omniscient wikipedia :)
24 Jan 2010 07:42:10 < vensa> Electronics is that branch of science and technology which makes use of the controlled motion of electrons through different media and vacuum.
24 Jan 2010 07:42:15 < vensa> dikca saske
24 Jan 2010 07:42:26 < feliks> read on, 2nd and 3rd sentence
24 Jan 2010 07:42:48 < vensa> if u want:
24 Jan 2010 07:42:56 < feliks> electric engineering deals with power generation/distribution
24 Jan 2010 07:42:59 < vensa> dikca zbaske
24 Jan 2010 07:43:09 < feliks> electronic with information, in the widest sense
24 Jan 2010 07:43:31 < vensa> feliks:
24 Jan 2010 07:43:40 < vensa> obviously we can't contain the whole definition of
24 Jan 2010 07:43:45 < vensa> electronics inside a lujvoi
24 Jan 2010 07:43:53 < feliks> probably
24 Jan 2010 07:43:54 < vensa> the question when forming lujvo should be:
24 Jan 2010 07:44:13 < vensa> "is there anything else out there that could be "confused" with the thing that I am intending to mean with this lujvo"
24 Jan 2010 07:44:38 < vensa> in this case, with "dikca zbaske" - i think the answer is no
24 Jan 2010 07:45:03 < vensa> "electricity kind of technology"
24 Jan 2010 07:45:10 < feliks> ok
24 Jan 2010 07:45:13 < vensa> not "a repair man"
24 Jan 2010 07:45:22 < vensa> not "a physicist"
24 Jan 2010 07:45:23 < vensa>  :)
24 Jan 2010 07:45:34 < feliks> i guess :)
24 Jan 2010 07:45:37 < feliks> thanks
24 Jan 2010 07:45:44 < vensa> if you try to express everything in the lujvo it will end up longer than the wall of china :)
24 Jan 2010 07:45:50 < vensa> my pleasure
24 Jan 2010 07:46:22 < feliks> you won't say that much longer, i've just begun the torture :P
24 Jan 2010 07:46:35 < vensa> oh... there's more?
24 Jan 2010 07:46:46 < feliks> not for the moment :)
24 Jan 2010 07:46:56  * vensa calls for backup
24 Jan 2010 07:47:14  * vensa sighs a breath of relaxation
24 Jan 2010 07:47:17 < feliks> hehe, no worries.
24 Jan 2010 07:47:21  * vensa cancels the mayday call
24 Jan 2010 07:47:24 < vensa> :)
24 Jan 2010 07:47:48 < feliks> i try to learn the line of thinking. this is just an example
24 Jan 2010 07:48:16 < vensa> np
24 Jan 2010 07:48:24 < vensa> where exactly ARE you in the lessons?
24 Jan 2010 07:48:49 < feliks> i am reading criss-cross. visiting and revisiting chapters
24 Jan 2010 07:49:01 < vensa> wow... you're all over the place
24 Jan 2010 07:49:08 < vensa> (like an electron) :)
24 Jan 2010 07:50:16 < feliks> also going through xorxes' kafka translation, ripping it apart and trying to understand. that's how i usually acquire new stuff, seldom by lesson plan
24 Jan 2010 07:50:33 < vensa> metamorphasis?
24 Jan 2010 07:50:39 < feliks> yes
24 Jan 2010 07:50:46 < vensa> cool... I started reading that
24 Jan 2010 07:51:02 < feliks> do you know if he translated it from english? because the original is german
24 Jan 2010 07:51:03 < vensa> I found that some of the translation was not that much to my liking, so I dropped it
24 Jan 2010 07:51:12 < vensa> I don't want to learn from something that is not official
24 Jan 2010 07:51:20 < feliks> not official?
24 Jan 2010 07:51:30 < Melvar> As far as I know, the translation was from spanish.
24 Jan 2010 07:51:44 < feliks> oic, that explains some disconnect
24 Jan 2010 07:51:44 < Melvar> Though I may remember wrong.
24 Jan 2010 07:51:50 < vensa> I mean it's not official learning material... there could be errors there
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24 Jan 2010 07:52:47 < vensa_> yeah... xorxes :) sounds spanish name
24 Jan 2010 07:53:56 < Melvar> The unlojbanized form is “Jorge”, I think.
24 Jan 2010 07:54:12 < feliks> jes, i saw it in some emails from him
24 Jan 2010 07:54:20 < feliks> oops Yes
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24 Jan 2010 07:55:58 < feliks> if i find the time i'd love to redo it from the german source, then one could compare. we used the story already in school, it's a good learning piece
24 Jan 2010 07:56:25 < vensa_> xu doi la feliks .e la melvar do djica lonu kelci la reno preti
24 Jan 2010 07:58:08 < Melvar> .i go'i
24 Jan 2010 07:58:31 < vensa_> uisai
24 Jan 2010 07:58:45 < vensa_> xu doi la feliks co'e
24 Jan 2010 07:59:10 < feliks> i gather i'm asked whether i want to play a game '20 words'?
24 Jan 2010 07:59:20 < vensa_> 20 questions . yep :)
24 Jan 2010 07:59:51 < feliks> could try, but i'll be slow, so far have to look everything up
24 Jan 2010 08:00:10 < vensa_> trust me, it's easy + it's good practice :)
24 Jan 2010 08:00:15 < vensa_> here we go then...
24 Jan 2010 08:00:18 < Melvar> I have to look a lot up too, but I’ve written a utility to make it quick.
24 Jan 2010 08:00:31 < vensa_> mi pensi lo jmive goi ko'a
24 Jan 2010 08:00:50 < feliks> i have to make a phone call in ~15 mins
24 Jan 2010 08:01:26 < feliks> i'd love to, but maybe later
24 Jan 2010 08:01:27 < vensa_> np feliks. if you don't get it by then it'll be a technical loss :P jk
24 Jan 2010 08:01:36 < feliks> :)
24 Jan 2010 08:01:37 < Melvar> .i xu ko'a danlu
24 Jan 2010 08:02:02 < vensa_> suit yourself. you can play until the phone call if you like. there's no cash penalty
24 Jan 2010 08:02:17 < feliks> alright, shoot :)
24 Jan 2010 08:02:18 < vensa_> go'i to pa toi
24 Jan 2010 08:02:33 < vensa_> I already shot
24 Jan 2010 08:02:38 < vensa_> and melvar shot the first question
24 Jan 2010 08:02:43 < Melvar> .i xu ko'a mabru
24 Jan 2010 08:02:50 < vensa_> I said: I'm thinking of a living organism
24 Jan 2010 08:03:00 < vensa_> he asked: "animal"? yes
24 Jan 2010 08:03:08 < vensa_> go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:03:10 < vensa_> to re toi
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24 Jan 2010 08:03:50 < Melvar> .i xu ko'a remna
24 Jan 2010 08:03:57 < vensa_> na go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:03:59 < vensa_> to ci toi
24 Jan 2010 08:04:21 < feliks> xu ko'a cinki
24 Jan 2010 08:04:48 < vensa_> feliks: you're not keeping up :) it already IS a mammal
24 Jan 2010 08:05:05 < feliks> oh,i thought not :)
24 Jan 2010 08:05:06 < vensa_> (mabru)
24 Jan 2010 08:05:08 < feliks> k
24 Jan 2010 08:05:16 < vensa_> np
24 Jan 2010 08:05:19 < feliks> xu ko'a kumte
24 Jan 2010 08:05:25 < vensa_> I didnt count that
24 Jan 2010 08:05:36 < vensa_> na go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:05:39 < vensa_> to vo toi
24 Jan 2010 08:06:23 < Melvar> .i xu ko'a citka lo rectu
24 Jan 2010 08:06:29 < vensa_> go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:06:31 < vensa_> to mu toi
24 Jan 2010 08:07:42 < feliks> xu ko'a mlatu
24 Jan 2010 08:07:56 < vensa_> go'i ui (but you're not done)
24 Jan 2010 08:08:03 < vensa_> to xa toi
24 Jan 2010 08:08:46 -!- EnglishGent^bbl is now known as EnglishGent
24 Jan 2010 08:09:26 < feliks> xu ko'a barda mlatu
24 Jan 2010 08:09:48 < vensa_> go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:09:48 < vensa_> to ze toi
24 Jan 2010 08:10:39 < Melvar> .i xu ko'a jutsi la'o ly. Panthera ly.
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24 Jan 2010 08:11:16 < feliks> xu ko'a selbarna barda mlatu
24 Jan 2010 08:11:24 < EnglishGent> coi
24 Jan 2010 08:11:25 < vensa_> doi melvar na go'i
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24 Jan 2010 08:12:00 < vensa_> feliks: nice question
24 Jan 2010 08:12:04 < vensa_> na go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:12:16 < vensa_> to bi toi
24 Jan 2010 08:12:18 < vensa_> to so toi
24 Jan 2010 08:12:24 < vensa_> coi la'oi EnglishGent
24 Jan 2010 08:12:33 < feliks> was it correct? (spotted...)
24 Jan 2010 08:12:44 < vensa_> yeah
24 Jan 2010 08:13:02 < vensa_> except I would use "xu ko'a se barna barda mlatu"
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24 Jan 2010 08:13:16 < vensa_> because "selbarna" (however straightforward) is not defined
24 Jan 2010 08:13:22 < feliks> guess i have a lujvo fetish
24 Jan 2010 08:13:26 < vensa_> hehehe
24 Jan 2010 08:13:32 < vensa_> I had that too at the beginning
24 Jan 2010 08:13:45 < vensa_> you guys are so close
24 Jan 2010 08:13:48 < feliks> i come from esperanto, that might explain it
24 Jan 2010 08:14:05 < feliks> xu ko'a tirxu
24 Jan 2010 08:14:06 < vensa_> I don;'t know esperanto feliks... so that doesn't explain it to me :)
24 Jan 2010 08:14:10 < vensa_> na go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:14:18 < vensa_> to pano toi
24 Jan 2010 08:14:21 < vensa_> ouch!
24 Jan 2010 08:14:25 < feliks> eo is all about word building, and you can run wild
24 Jan 2010 08:14:32 < vensa_> ahh
24 Jan 2010 08:14:34 < vensa_> I C
24 Jan 2010 08:14:46 < vensa_> obviously you've been running a muck
24 Jan 2010 08:14:49 < vensa_> :P
24 Jan 2010 08:14:53 < feliks> :)
24 Jan 2010 08:14:57 < vensa_> poor esperanto ppl...
24 Jan 2010 08:14:58 < vensa_> jk
24 Jan 2010 08:15:39 < feliks> last one, then i have to dash out: xu ko'a cinfo
24 Jan 2010 08:15:47 < vensa_> go'i uisai
24 Jan 2010 08:15:50 < vensa_> congrats
24 Jan 2010 08:16:12 < feliks> ki'e .ui
24 Jan 2010 08:16:13 < vensa_> papa le preti
24 Jan 2010 08:16:16 < vensa_> 11 questions
24 Jan 2010 08:16:18 < vensa_> not bad
24 Jan 2010 08:16:22 < feliks> :)
24 Jan 2010 08:16:23 < vensa_> you could have done worse
24 Jan 2010 08:16:25 < vensa_> :P
24 Jan 2010 08:16:32 < Melvar> .i lo cinfo jutsi la'o ly. Panthera ly.
24 Jan 2010 08:16:41 < vensa_> A lion is a panther?
24 Jan 2010 08:16:53 < vensa_> I'm sorry... maybe I didn't understand the question
24 Jan 2010 08:17:03 < feliks> thanks @ for the help, i learned sth
24 Jan 2010 08:17:13 < Melvar> A lion is a species of genus Panthera; Panthera leo to be precise.
24 Jan 2010 08:17:17 < feliks> co'o
24 Jan 2010 08:17:19 < vensa_> really?
24 Jan 2010 08:17:21 < vensa_> co'o feliks
24 Jan 2010 08:17:22 -!- feliks [n=xyz@g228008114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit []
24 Jan 2010 08:17:24 < vensa_> sorry...
24 Jan 2010 08:17:47 < vensa_> so you got it on 8 :)
24 Jan 2010 08:18:13 < vensa_> so it is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera
24 Jan 2010 08:18:18 < Hussell> Melvar: lo cinfu *cu* jutsi
24 Jan 2010 08:18:39 < Melvar> .oi go'i
24 Jan 2010 08:19:06 < vensa_> I thought you were asking about Panthers specifically and just didnt have a lojban word for it...
24 Jan 2010 08:19:07 < vensa_> :(
24 Jan 2010 08:19:34 < EnglishGent> has anyone here come across faceted classification? (as in library science?)
24 Jan 2010 08:19:45 < vensa_> huh??
24 Jan 2010 08:19:45 < Melvar> Then I would probably have used gy. as a delimiter, rather than ly. .
24 Jan 2010 08:19:46 < Hussell> Yes.
24 Jan 2010 08:20:10 < vensa_> hmmm.... good point melvar
24 Jan 2010 08:20:14 < vensa_> touche to you
24 Jan 2010 08:20:26 < Melvar> Anyway, I would still have needed up to four more questions to get the right one of the four species.
24 Jan 2010 08:20:27 < EnglishGent> cool - I was just looking at BC2 - and thinking how classmarks looked like a selbri (I am a total lojban novice)
24 Jan 2010 08:20:33  * vensa_ hands over the first place trophy to Melvar
24 Jan 2010 08:20:47 < EnglishGent> Subject of x1 thing x2 part x3 kind ...
24 Jan 2010 08:22:22 < vensa_> well, I'm beat. So long everyone
24 Jan 2010 08:22:24 < vensa_> co'o
24 Jan 2010 08:23:02 < EnglishGent> ttyl vensa_ :)
24 Jan 2010 08:23:14 < vensa_> TTYL?
24 Jan 2010 08:23:23 < vensa_> talk to you later?
24 Jan 2010 08:23:32 < vensa_> I always get those a second after asking :)
24 Jan 2010 08:23:45 < vensa_> (i hope i got it)
24 Jan 2010 08:23:57 < nonporous> you did (lol)
24 Jan 2010 08:23:59 < EnglishGent> yes :)
24 Jan 2010 08:24:03 < vensa_> thanks
24 Jan 2010 08:24:11 < vensa_> TTYL EnglishGent .e rodo :P
24 Jan 2010 08:24:13 < EnglishGent> your welcome :)
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24 Jan 2010 09:23:10 < djanatyn-fonxa> coi
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24 Jan 2010 09:40:38 < EnglishGent> coi djanatyn
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24 Jan 2010 09:44:20 < djanatyn-fonxa> coi
24 Jan 2010 09:45:35 < datka> coi rodo
24 Jan 2010 09:46:03 < datka> what would the lojban translation of "I think therefore I am" be?
24 Jan 2010 09:46:06 < djanatyn-fonxa> coi datka
24 Jan 2010 09:47:51 < datka> I've been meaning to get the words "cogito ergo sum" worked into my tattoo, but I was thinking that the lojban version might be more relevant to my life
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24 Jan 2010 09:49:43 < Melvar> Perhaps “lodu'u mi pensi cu nibli lodu'u mi zasti”? But DO NOT take my word for it.
24 Jan 2010 09:50:08 < timonator> mi pensi i se ni'i bo mi zasti
24 Jan 2010 09:50:13 < timonator> mi pensi gi'e se ni'i bo zasti
24 Jan 2010 09:50:30 < datka> I was thinking peisku would be better
24 Jan 2010 09:50:42 < timonator> peisku?
24 Jan 2010 09:50:49 < timonator> well, what's the essence of "cogito"?
24 Jan 2010 09:51:34 < Nuky> "to brain"
24 Jan 2010 09:52:52 < Melvar> think, consider, ponder
24 Jan 2010 09:52:58 < datka> I think of it in the sense that if I weren't thinking, than none of this will exist
24 Jan 2010 09:53:53 < datka> peisku gave more of the impression of having a sense of "I"
24 Jan 2010 09:54:03 < Melvar> It seems to match “pensi” quite well.
24 Jan 2010 09:54:30 < timonator> well, not everyone thinks in text
24 Jan 2010 09:54:44 < timonator> i mean spoken text
24 Jan 2010 09:54:56 < Melvar> Yet thinking, including cōgitāre, does not imply expression, only impression.
24 Jan 2010 09:54:57 < timonator> some people think in written text or abstract concepts or imagery
24 Jan 2010 09:55:57 < datka> I do, and I consider that the reason I exist. I am a discordian. This will be going around my sacred chao on my arm
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24 Jan 2010 09:59:54 < Melvar> I am not clear on what “peisku” is supposed to mean.
24 Jan 2010 10:02:04 < Twey> Telepathy, perhaps
24 Jan 2010 10:02:35 < Twey> datka: pensi ju zasti
24 Jan 2010 10:02:53 < Twey> Er, wait, what
24 Jan 2010 10:03:21 < Twey> pensi jo zasti
24 Jan 2010 10:03:44 < Melvar> Twey, that doesn’t say that he does either.
24 Jan 2010 10:03:54 < Twey> Indeed
24 Jan 2010 10:04:01 < datka> It seems to me that peisku would represent any thought that could be written down in a language as opposed to more abstract thinking
24 Jan 2010 10:04:02 < Twey> I was translating the intention
24 Jan 2010 10:04:12 < Twey> Which formulates rather well in Lojban
24 Jan 2010 10:04:21 < Twey> Rather than the literal translation, which doesn't
24 Jan 2010 10:04:30 < timonator> you use peisku for things like "'man, that's awful', i thought"
24 Jan 2010 10:04:50  * timonator jumps onto the bike
24 Jan 2010 10:05:30 < Twey> (something like ‘mi zasti ki'u le nu mi pensi’ perhaps)
24 Jan 2010 10:06:02 < Twey> But the intention of the phrase is a simple logical equivalence: that which thinks must necessarily exist
24 Jan 2010 10:06:18 < Twey> Hmn, though I guess the equivalence doesn't necessarily go the other way
24 Jan 2010 10:07:13 < Twey> zasti janai pensi
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24 Jan 2010 10:07:54 < datka> I like the second one timonator posted
24 Jan 2010 10:08:36 < Twey> Really?
24 Jan 2010 10:08:44 < Twey> Oh well, I guess there's no accounting for taste
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24 Jan 2010 10:09:41 < datka> I like the translation of that one the best
24 Jan 2010 10:10:10 < datka> something like that should be based as much around logic as possible
24 Jan 2010 10:10:29 < Twey> Which is why I like ‘zasti janai pensi’
24 Jan 2010 10:11:06 < datka> that one is rather nice
24 Jan 2010 10:11:21 < datka> and is less to tattoo
24 Jan 2010 10:11:22 < Twey> It's a perfect translation of cogit(X) -> est(X)
24 Jan 2010 10:11:28 < Twey> That too
24 Jan 2010 10:12:25 < datka> personally, for my own beliefs, I prefer peisku, but I'll think I'll change it to lojban
24 Jan 2010 10:12:39 < Melvar> Actually, cōgitat(X) -> est(X)
24 Jan 2010 10:12:55 < Twey> Oh, really?  CŌGITARE?
24 Jan 2010 10:13:03 < Twey> Bah, I've lost all my Latin
24 Jan 2010 10:13:34 < Melvar> I’ve never learned any, but the Internet knows. More specifically Wiktionary.
24 Jan 2010 10:13:56 < datka> When I thought of this not long ago, my wife asked "does lojban really mean that much to you" to which I responded "more than latin"
24 Jan 2010 10:14:22 < Twey> Haha
24 Jan 2010 10:14:50 < Melvar> And, “cōgitāre”.
24 Jan 2010 10:15:52 < Twey> Hmm, yeah
24 Jan 2010 10:16:15 < Melvar> How might one translate “walrus” into Lojban?
24 Jan 2010 10:16:25 < Melvar> I don’t even know where to begin with this one.
24 Jan 2010 10:17:01 < Twey> odbenu
24 Jan 2010 10:18:04 < Melvar> Where does that come from?
24 Jan 2010 10:19:24 < Melvar> And I should have thought of checking dict.lojban.org before asking.
24 Jan 2010 10:21:02 < Twey> ‘Odobenus rosmarus rosmarus’
24 Jan 2010 10:21:14 < Melvar> I found it by now.
24 Jan 2010 10:21:17 < Twey> http://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/odbenu
24 Jan 2010 10:21:19 < Twey> Hehe
24 Jan 2010 10:21:36 < Melvar> It says so in the jbo->jbo section of dict.lojban.org .
24 Jan 2010 10:22:33 < Twey> Ah, so it does
24 Jan 2010 10:26:39 < Melvar> .i le .odbenu cu ponse lo baktu
24 Jan 2010 10:28:14 < Twey> .i ku'i baktu vi ma
24 Jan 2010 10:29:52 < neptunepink> Did somebody mention jbovlaste2wikipedia?
24 Jan 2010 10:34:30 < donri> "electronic" is merely an adjective form of electron, which in lojban is {lektoni} as a seltau
24 Jan 2010 10:34:45 < donri> and apparently my scrollbar was way off
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24 Jan 2010 11:43:00 < vensa> coi rodo .i zanba nicte
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24 Jan 2010 12:05:52 < neptunepink> *zabna
24 Jan 2010 12:06:35 < vensa> neptunepink: yeah, I realized I made that mistake. I just saw that nobody seemed to be listening so I ignored it :)
24 Jan 2010 12:06:58 < neptunepink> gimsu are bitchy like that.
24 Jan 2010 12:07:44 < vensa> yeah. It's a good thing though that they are carefully picked out so that usually switching just one letter results in a non-existent gismu :)
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24 Jan 2010 12:08:01 < neptunepink> barja bajra.
24 Jan 2010 12:08:07 < neptunepink> Not in all cases.
24 Jan 2010 12:08:13 < vensa> not all I suppose
24 Jan 2010 12:08:36 < vensa> but even makfa responds to "q zanba" with the def for zabna
24 Jan 2010 12:08:59 < neptunepink> http://jbotcan.org/gismu.txt.wtf
24 Jan 2010 12:09:16 < neptunepink> From chrisdone, I think.
24 Jan 2010 12:09:26 < vensa> cool
24 Jan 2010 12:09:38 < vensa> somebody actually went through the trouble of listing these :)
24 Jan 2010 12:09:46 < neptunepink> I'd be more interested in the ones that have only different vowels, or swap letters.
24 Jan 2010 12:09:47 < vensa> wtg chris
24 Jan 2010 12:10:35 < vensa> can you think of such close words in english?
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24 Jan 2010 12:12:05 < vensa> dart\drat fart\frat bart\brat.... ?
24 Jan 2010 12:13:40 < vensa> at least no two gismu can easily "sound" alike
24 Jan 2010 12:13:59 < vensa> i.e. if there is bajra, there is no "pajra", etc
24 Jan 2010 12:14:06 < vensa> am I right?
24 Jan 2010 12:14:43 < neptunepink> noidea.
24 Jan 2010 12:14:59 < vensa> I think I read somewhere that that is a criteria for choosing the gismu
24 Jan 2010 12:15:10 < vensa> if you find a contradicting example, let me know :)
24 Jan 2010 12:16:23 -!- selckiku [n=mungojel@c-98-229-3-244.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 12:16:58 < selckiku> hello lojbanicpeople
24 Jan 2010 12:16:59 < vensa> coi selckiku
24 Jan 2010 12:17:01 < vensa> ma nuzba
24 Jan 2010 12:17:09 < selckiku> no ba'u da
24 Jan 2010 12:17:39 < selckiku> ma nuzba fi do
24 Jan 2010 12:17:46 < vensa> xu do zdicaudri
24 Jan 2010 12:18:02 < selckiku> .i na go'i
24 Jan 2010 12:18:14 < selckiku> .i mi .y. co'e
24 Jan 2010 12:18:40 < vensa> mi ca ca'o tcidu la'e zoi CLL
24 Jan 2010 12:18:56 < vensa> ki'a co'e
24 Jan 2010 12:19:30 < selckiku> .i fu'e pe'a tilju bevri cpare fu'o cinmo fa mi
24 Jan 2010 12:20:37 < vensa> xu do tatpi
24 Jan 2010 12:20:52 < neptunepink> Is the lojban wave lesson dead?
24 Jan 2010 12:21:16 < selckiku> wave as a whole is sleepy
24 Jan 2010 12:21:43 < selckiku> they added a few features lately and i thought "hmm, well that's some of the many features it still needs"
24 Jan 2010 12:22:22 < selckiku> doi la vensa mi cinmo tatpi .i mi na xadni tatpi
24 Jan 2010 12:22:23 < neptunepink> I'd rather have a google wave *program* than a google wave webpage
24 Jan 2010 12:22:43 < vensa> xu do puza rejgau da
24 Jan 2010 12:23:06 < vensa> to je'e toi
24 Jan 2010 12:23:27 < selckiku> .i go'i ca le prulamdei
24 Jan 2010 12:23:41 < vensa> ui
24 Jan 2010 12:23:47 < selckiku> .i skina fi mi
24 Jan 2010 12:23:55 < selckiku> .u'e ru'e
24 Jan 2010 12:24:12 < vensa> xu bau la lojban
24 Jan 2010 12:24:28 < vensa> xu bau la lojban po'o
24 Jan 2010 12:24:30 < selckiku> .i go'i .i la dontu'u cu co'e
24 Jan 2010 12:24:46 < selckiku> it's on my youtube http://youtube.com/selckiku
24 Jan 2010 12:24:52 < vensa> ki'e
24 Jan 2010 12:25:02 < selckiku> i just said hi i think and then i responded to la .djanatyn. since he mentioned me
24 Jan 2010 12:25:27 < vensa> ua
24 Jan 2010 12:26:19 < vensa> mi sorpa'a lenu do rejgau lo clani sance bo vreji
24 Jan 2010 12:27:01 < vensa> mi nelci lenu smadi ledu'u makau do te tavla
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24 Jan 2010 12:28:16 < selckiku> .i .ai ru'e mi finti lo zmadu clani skina .i'e pei
24 Jan 2010 12:28:23 < vensa> de'a jundi
24 Jan 2010 12:28:30 < selckiku> je'e
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24 Jan 2010 12:36:52 < vensa> mi nelrai lo clani vreji pe lo sance po'o ki'u lenu mi nelci lenu tinju'i secau lenu zgana le vidni
24 Jan 2010 12:40:42 < vensa> t to mi sorpa'a lenu di'u gendra je mapti toi
24 Jan 2010 12:41:31 < vensa> sa to mi sorpa'a lenu di'u gendra gi'e mapti toi
24 Jan 2010 12:42:01 < vensa> ju'i la selckiku
24 Jan 2010 12:42:37 < selckiku> .ua
24 Jan 2010 12:43:09 < selckiku> .i xu do pu jundi la tolvaita'a
24 Jan 2010 12:43:52 < selckiku> http://www.archive.org/details/Tolvaitaa001
24 Jan 2010 12:44:09 < selckiku> i guess it's 35 minutes, that would make it the longest recording in lojban, probably?
24 Jan 2010 12:44:29 < selckiku> it's utter nonsense, i found it quite tiring to reach my goal of half an hour, it was practice for me mostly :)
24 Jan 2010 12:44:33 < vensa> ki'esai
24 Jan 2010 12:44:35 < timonator> you made a recording?
24 Jan 2010 12:44:50 < timonator> utter nonsense, eh? :(
24 Jan 2010 12:45:13 < vensa> "tricu tricu tricu tricu" is not utter nonsense :)
24 Jan 2010 12:45:16 < selckiku> i believe i recorded a second episode, but i'll have to find it and listen to it again before i post it, who knows what i said
24 Jan 2010 12:45:56 < selckiku> oh no that makes perfect sense, most trees are tree related trees
24 Jan 2010 12:46:16 < vensa> lol
24 Jan 2010 12:46:37 < vensa> at least you preceded it by saying: "I'm going to say "tricu" alot now..."
24 Jan 2010 12:46:42 < vensa> (in lojban)
24 Jan 2010 12:46:57 < timonator> u'i
24 Jan 2010 12:47:40 < vensa> doi timonator do ei tinju'i
24 Jan 2010 12:47:49 < selckiku> well i was talking about how it's not hard to make a recording in lojban.. just hard to say lots of meaningful sense
24 Jan 2010 12:48:02 < vensa> da mutce xajmi
24 Jan 2010 12:48:48 < selckiku> at least that's the most recent time i was saying tricu tricu tricu... i say that a lot
24 Jan 2010 12:48:58 < vensa> lol
24 Jan 2010 12:49:03 < vensa> tree-hugger! :)
24 Jan 2010 12:49:05 < selckiku> mi nelci zo tricu .e lo tanru no'u lo'u tricu tricu le'u
24 Jan 2010 12:49:18 < vensa> u'isai
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24 Jan 2010 12:49:47 < selckiku> .i mi nelci lo nu xadjai lo tricu je'u
24 Jan 2010 12:50:02 < vensa> u'i
24 Jan 2010 12:50:32 < selckiku> hrmm xadjai isn't in jbovlaste?  i remember that word from long ago
24 Jan 2010 12:51:04 < vensa> it's in the gismu notes:
24 Jan 2010 12:51:05 < vensa> gismu {jgari} glossing to "hold" in the sense of "grasp", "grasp" with rafsi -jai-   x1 grasps/holds/clutches/seizes/grips/[hugs] x2 with x3 (part of x1) at locus x4 (part of x2).   Notes: Hug (= {birjai}, {pamjai}); embrace (= {xadjai}); handshake (= {xanjai}, {jikyxanjai}), handle (= {veljai}, {veljaitci}).  See also {ralte}, {pencu}, {darxi}, {batke}, {rinju}.
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24 Jan 2010 12:52:19 < vensa> Broca said that when lujvo appear in the gismu notes and not as a seperate lujvo entry, that usually means the founder's thought they would make good lujvo - just didn't go to the trouble of properly defining the place structure
24 Jan 2010 12:52:43 < vensa> and that you (the lojbo experts) should define them
24 Jan 2010 12:52:54 < selckiku> i say "i" weird sometimes
24 Jan 2010 12:53:36 < selckiku> um yeah well the place structure should be jvajvo do you know about the seljvajvo rules?  i think that's how you spell it jva jvo
24 Jan 2010 12:53:50 < vensa> doi la selckiku lenu do cilre fi la lojban cu temci ma
24 Jan 2010 12:54:05 < vensa> no :(
24 Jan 2010 12:54:11 < selckiku> so'i nanca
24 Jan 2010 12:54:48 < selckiku> i started when i was 16ish i think, so 13 years, but very inconsistently at first
24 Jan 2010 12:55:06 < vensa> la'e di'u cu klina
24 Jan 2010 12:55:12 < selckiku> there's a system most of us follow most of the time for lujvo place structures, to make them predictable
24 Jan 2010 12:55:13 < vensa> wow
24 Jan 2010 12:55:26 < vensa> is it documented somewhere?
24 Jan 2010 12:55:31 < selckiku> yes, somewhere :)
24 Jan 2010 12:55:36 < vensa> h
24 Jan 2010 12:55:37 < vensa> HA
24 Jan 2010 12:55:46 < selckiku> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/seljvajvo
24 Jan 2010 12:55:54 < vensa> oh cool
24 Jan 2010 12:55:57 < selckiku> there's a good place to start i tihnk
24 Jan 2010 12:57:26 < vensa> ma jibri do
24 Jan 2010 12:58:10 < vensa> xu do banskepre
24 Jan 2010 12:58:37 < selckiku> .i no da ca jibri mi
24 Jan 2010 12:58:45 < vensa> ue
24 Jan 2010 12:59:02 < vensa> ua to ca toi
24 Jan 2010 12:59:10 < vensa> uudai
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24 Jan 2010 12:59:39 < vensa> ma do ta'e se gasnu
24 Jan 2010 13:02:11 < selckiku> .i mi xebni le jdini .i xlali ciste pe'i
24 Jan 2010 13:02:30 < vensa> je'e
24 Jan 2010 13:03:00 < vensa> ku'i do'o nitcu loi jdini ui
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24 Jan 2010 13:06:02 < vensa> pe'i do ei jerna loi jdini lonu gasnu da poi do nelci
24 Jan 2010 13:07:00 < vensa> do nelci lonu gasnu ma
24 Jan 2010 13:07:49 < vensa> da'a lonu tavla fo la lojban vau ui
24 Jan 2010 13:08:07 < selckiku> .i mi nelci lo nu lojbo gi'e ku'i lojbo na'e se jibri .u'i
24 Jan 2010 13:08:19 < vensa> ie
24 Jan 2010 13:08:58 < vensa> la'acu'i do ka'e se jibri lo lojbo co'e
24 Jan 2010 13:09:03 < selckiku> .i mi pu za si zu se jibri lo pu'u zbasu lo nilce lo mudri
24 Jan 2010 13:10:11 < selckiku> .i mi pilno so'i se fanri se mu'i lo nu mi fanri gunka .a'u
24 Jan 2010 13:10:11 < vensa> xu do pu nelci ra
24 Jan 2010 13:10:41 < selckiku> .i mi milxe lo ka nelci .i mi cilre .i dukse lo ka nandu
24 Jan 2010 13:11:07 < vensa> je'e
24 Jan 2010 13:11:15 < selckiku> ni'o do sutra li'a cilre
24 Jan 2010 13:11:21 < vensa> ki'e
24 Jan 2010 13:11:45 < vensa> mi mutce nelci lonu cilre fi la lojban
24 Jan 2010 13:11:56 < selckiku> .i .u'u mi de'a jundi .i .a'o ba za casnu co'o
24 Jan 2010 13:12:07 < vensa> mi pu ba'o sisku (for such a language)
24 Jan 2010 13:12:19 < vensa> (not good with sisku yet)
24 Jan 2010 13:12:30 < vensa> co'o
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24 Jan 2010 13:14:52 < vensa> mi pu ba'o sisku tu'a lo bangu poi simsa la lojban <--- (I wonder if that's a good sentence... anybody?)
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24 Jan 2010 13:41:20 < nonporous> i'm curious... why is the consonant pair "mz" forbidden in lojban?
24 Jan 2010 13:42:52 < nonporous> it's the only one of the forbidden pairs that i don't see as being difficult to pronounce or difficult to identify
24 Jan 2010 13:43:47 < Melvar> doi vensa ; perhaps {.i mi pu ba'o sisku loka simsa la .lojban. kei lo'i bangu}
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24 Jan 2010 13:47:13 < Melvar> Nonporous, I find all five of the specifically forbidden pairs to be easy.
24 Jan 2010 13:47:22 < Melvar> I have no answer for you.
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24 Jan 2010 13:57:39 < komfn> nonporous: IIRC James Cooke Brown, inventor of Loglan, disallowed it in part because it's in his name.
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24 Jan 2010 13:58:11 < komfn> Also it conflicts aurally with mbz - that may have been a factor.
24 Jan 2010 13:58:48 < Melvar> doi komfn ; I don’t see how it conflicts.
24 Jan 2010 13:59:28 < komfn> <shrug /> I can see them being hard to distinguish in a speech stream.
24 Jan 2010 14:02:30 < Melvar> …“mbz” can’t occur except in cmevla.
24 Jan 2010 14:02:59 < Tene> any recommendations for a small, lightweight wiki?
24 Jan 2010 14:03:04 < Tene> ack, mischan
24 Jan 2010 14:04:20 < nonporous> thanks to all who answered me
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24 Jan 2010 14:14:08 < Twey> komfn: Nah.  ns/nts and nz/ndz are allowed.
24 Jan 2010 14:18:28 < Melvar> Actually, “nts” is specifically forbidden.
24 Jan 2010 14:19:01 < Melvar> And, as I said, “mbz” is forbidden anyway.
24 Jan 2010 14:19:13 < Twey> ‘nts’ is?  Really?  Huh.
24 Jan 2010 14:19:40 < Melvar> I find it exceedingly strange as well.
24 Jan 2010 14:20:44 < selckiku> want to hear the phonology i've been working on?
24 Jan 2010 14:20:45 < Melvar> Consonant triples, rule 3: The triples “ndj”, “ndz”, “ntc”, and “nts” are forbidden.
24 Jan 2010 14:20:53 < selckiku> it's for a loglisp
24 Jan 2010 14:21:11 < Twey> A what?
24 Jan 2010 14:21:19 < selckiku> a, i, and u end words, and e o y and w are vowels that don't end words
24 Jan 2010 14:21:21 < Twey> Melvar: I don't find it strange, I just thought it wasn't the case.
24 Jan 2010 14:21:26 < Twey> It makes sense.  I'm glad it's so.
24 Jan 2010 14:21:28 < selckiku> it's a loglang but it's going to be all terminated
24 Jan 2010 14:21:39 < Twey> selckiku: Oo.
24 Jan 2010 14:21:45 < Twey> I did one of those once.
24 Jan 2010 14:21:53 < selckiku> did you?  is it up somewhere?
24 Jan 2010 14:22:05 < Melvar> How does it make sense?
24 Jan 2010 14:24:24 < Melvar> How does it make sense to forbid these triples? They’re the easiest triples out there!
24 Jan 2010 14:24:28 < Twey> selckiku: No, it's locked in an encrypted partition to which I've lost the key
24 Jan 2010 14:24:56 < selckiku> .ua .ui nai
24 Jan 2010 14:25:24 < Twey> Melvar: It makes sense because the production of a nasal followed by a fricative automatically generates an intermediate stop
24 Jan 2010 14:25:33 < Twey> (because you're blocking and then releasing)
24 Jan 2010 14:25:36 < selckiku> Twey: do you remember any interesting ideas from it?
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24 Jan 2010 14:26:08 < Twey> So {ns} is {nts}, {nc} is {ntc}, {nz} is {ndz}, and {nj} is {ndj}
24 Jan 2010 14:26:11 < Melvar> No, it generates an intermediate silence.
24 Jan 2010 14:26:25 < Twey> No, that would be a pause ({.})
24 Jan 2010 14:26:53 < Melvar> Well, it’s not as long as even a <.>.
24 Jan 2010 14:26:58 < Twey> selckiku: It didn't turn out very well.  I had the case markers to start with, then a separator, then the terms to which they applied, matched by order.
24 Jan 2010 14:27:07 < Melvar> Just enough to cover the edge.
24 Jan 2010 14:27:14 < Twey> Melvar: If you pause, it's a {.}
24 Jan 2010 14:27:30 < Twey> Also, it's very difficult to do, and liable to be forgotten or slurred away in rapid speech
24 Jan 2010 14:29:39 < Melvar> …No, there need not be either an intermediate plosive or an audibly-long pause.
24 Jan 2010 14:30:09 < Melvar> Stop the nasal escape as you begin the oral one.
24 Jan 2010 14:31:02 < Twey> You have to stop the flow of air altogether as you release the nasal
24 Jan 2010 14:31:12 < selckiku> Twey: well mine is just all parentheses.  everything matches itself, like if there's cmavo ha hi and hu then you can say ha hi something hi hu something hu ha
24 Jan 2010 14:31:50 < Twey> That's a) audible anyway (it's actually phonemic in American) and b) very noticeable (enough to qualify for {.})
24 Jan 2010 14:33:12 < Melvar> …You can’t tell me you pronounce “onset” as though it were “ontset”?
24 Jan 2010 14:33:29 < Twey> Yes, Melvar.  Everyone does.
24 Jan 2010 14:33:38 < Melvar> I do not, and cannot.
24 Jan 2010 14:33:44 < selckiku> there's an obvious tradeoff involved in the elidable termination in lojban, and so i think it's a good test to actually try the other side of ti-- to pay in having to say terminators all the time for conceptual and pedagogical simplicity
24 Jan 2010 14:33:49 < selckiku> phonology is weird.  i don't get it.
24 Jan 2010 14:33:56 < Twey> I assure you that you do, unless you have a weird speech disorder.
24 Jan 2010 14:34:36 < selckiku> i've been trying to pronounce my by cy dy lojban alphabet words right since you corrected me, Twey, but i'm still not sure when i'm doing it right
24 Jan 2010 14:35:11 < Melvar> …English is weird.
24 Jan 2010 14:35:20 < Twey> Yeah.  ☺
24 Jan 2010 14:35:40 < Twey> selckiku: Want to record?  I can't remember what you were doing with your ‘by’
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24 Jan 2010 14:38:41 < selckiku> hmm well there's music here at the moment, but i'll record sometime what i've been saying now and what i used to say
24 Jan 2010 14:38:48 < Twey> Okay ☺
24 Jan 2010 14:38:53 < Melvar> …English phonology is weirder.
24 Jan 2010 14:40:39 < selckiku> if we go back and forth with lojban pronunciation audios all the time it will be helpful to future learners i'm sure
24 Jan 2010 14:41:01 < selckiku> we need to work on our vocab there in lojban, so we can correct each other's pronunciation in lojban
24 Jan 2010 14:41:51 < selckiku> like the only word in my active vocab there is "bacru"... isn't there something ilke bacrytadji or something?  something with sance too for phonetics or something
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24 Jan 2010 14:43:11 < selckiku> djisku / skudji is useful sometimes pointing out how something should have been said
24 Jan 2010 14:45:30 < Melvar> What about the distinction between [ts] and [t͡s]?
24 Jan 2010 14:47:08 < Twey> Melvar: Phonemic, not phonetic
24 Jan 2010 14:47:35 < Melvar> ?
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24 Jan 2010 14:49:13 < Melvar> What did that apply to?
24 Jan 2010 14:50:18 < Twey> Melvar: There is no phonetic difference between an affricate and a combination of its composite stop/fricative
24 Jan 2010 14:50:27 < Twey> The distinction is purely phonemic
24 Jan 2010 14:50:41 < Melvar> Wrong way around, is what you’re telling me.
24 Jan 2010 14:51:06 < Melvar> In most languages, there is no phonemic difference, but there is a phonetic one.
24 Jan 2010 14:51:30 < Twey> No, I said what I meant and meant what I said
24 Jan 2010 14:52:41 < Twey> Hmm
24 Jan 2010 14:52:43 < Melvar> Please look up “phonemic” and “phonetic”, I believe you have switched them.
24 Jan 2010 14:53:06 < Twey> I was about to say the same thing to you :þ
24 Jan 2010 14:53:24 < Melvar> I have looked.
24 Jan 2010 14:53:31 < Twey> As have I
24 Jan 2010 14:54:28 < selckiku> .u'i
24 Jan 2010 14:55:02 < djanatyn> selckiku: YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
24 Jan 2010 14:55:05 < djanatyn> You are my idol.
24 Jan 2010 14:55:06 < selckiku> i didn't understand any of this stuff until i subbed to the CONLANG list
24 Jan 2010 14:55:09 < djanatyn> I can't believe you responded to my video.
24 Jan 2010 14:55:14 < djanatyn> .i'ecaicaicaicai
24 Jan 2010 14:55:14 < selckiku> coi la .djanatyn.
24 Jan 2010 14:55:17  * djanatyn collapses
24 Jan 2010 14:55:30 < selckiku> .y. .i'e dai
24 Jan 2010 14:55:47 < djanatyn> That was interesting. I was just watching your response to my video, and I went to lojban to say "SELCKIKU RESPONDED", and you were the last person to speak! :)
24 Jan 2010 14:56:56 < selckiku> yay maybe now we can get a conversation going
24 Jan 2010 14:57:15 < selckiku> i've been practicing my spoken lojban a lot lately
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24 Jan 2010 14:58:58 < Twey> Hmm
24 Jan 2010 14:59:31 < selckiku> ro'e
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24 Jan 2010 15:01:18 < djanatyn> Hey, selckiku, do you want to Mumble?
24 Jan 2010 15:01:35  * djanatyn would like to post another video! But it's too dark.
24 Jan 2010 15:01:41 < djanatyn> Perhaps tommorow, after final.
24 Jan 2010 15:02:27 < selckiku> i might be able to later, but not right now
24 Jan 2010 15:02:46 < selckiku> a final exam?  good luck
24 Jan 2010 15:03:07 < selckiku> .a'o lo xamgu do funca
24 Jan 2010 15:03:13 < djanatyn> Yep, final exams are fun.
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24 Jan 2010 15:12:33 < nonporous> i'm going to rephrase a question i asked earlier
24 Jan 2010 15:13:54 < nonporous> Why are certain consonant clusters not allowed in lojban? Is it purely for the purpose of facilitating pronunciation for speakers of all origin?
24 Jan 2010 15:14:28 < Twey> nonporous: Certain consonant clusters are easily confused with certain other consonant clusters.
24 Jan 2010 15:14:45 < Twey> And some are difficult or impossible to pronounce, yes
24 Jan 2010 15:15:56 < nonporous> thanks
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24 Jan 2010 15:22:08 < selckiku> hey can anyone recommend any good places to upload audio?
24 Jan 2010 15:22:15 < djanatyn> /sance/ :)
24 Jan 2010 15:22:39 < selckiku> should i really post there all the time?  no one else does
24 Jan 2010 15:22:55 < djanatyn> You could start a new movement!
24 Jan 2010 15:23:08 < selckiku> i should at least post something new there, it's been a while
24 Jan 2010 15:23:09 < djanatyn> I mean, if you started posting there, and a lot of people started posting, then it would be used...frequently.
24 Jan 2010 15:23:19 < djanatyn> Didn't jbotcan start out like that? Nobody used it, or something?
24 Jan 2010 15:23:39 < selckiku> hmm not as i recall, it was pretty busy from the beginning, but it went up and down all the time
24 Jan 2010 15:23:55 < djanatyn> Ah. Well...umm.
24 Jan 2010 15:23:56 < djanatyn> Yay!
24 Jan 2010 15:24:24 < selckiku> do you know any general purpose audio dumping websites, though?
24 Jan 2010 15:24:32 < djanatyn> No, not really. :(
24 Jan 2010 15:24:35 < selckiku> tumblr has a limit of 1 audio a day, which is annoying
24 Jan 2010 15:25:01 < selckiku> and archive.org has a waiting period, which is also somewhat annoying
24 Jan 2010 15:25:31 < djanatyn> You could set up an apache server :)
24 Jan 2010 15:25:35 < selckiku> i'm going to keep posting tolvaita'a there, whenever i can manage to record for half an hour
24 Jan 2010 15:41:38 < neptunepink> selckiku: What, you think I want *less* activity on jbotcan?
24 Jan 2010 15:50:26 < selckiku> neptunepink: oh is it your server?
24 Jan 2010 15:53:34 < selckiku> neptunepink: would it be reasonable if i uploaded a few mp3s a day, then?
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24 Jan 2010 15:59:10 < selckiku> i tried uploading here http://www.tindeck.com/listen/rmwo but it doesn't seem to be very good :(
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24 Jan 2010 16:25:03 < neptunepink> selckiku: So long as you're not like djanatyn who uploads .bmp's
24 Jan 2010 16:25:05  * neptunepink poof
24 Jan 2010 16:25:14 < neptunepink> Oh? I guess not.
24 Jan 2010 16:25:21 < djanatyn> I don't uplaod .bmps any more :)
24 Jan 2010 16:25:24 < djanatyn> I only did that once.
24 Jan 2010 16:25:30 < neptunepink> once? Ha!
24 Jan 2010 16:25:32 < nonporous> (lol)
24 Jan 2010 16:25:33 < djanatyn> And I didn't know any better! :)
24 Jan 2010 16:25:36 < djanatyn> Really?
24 Jan 2010 16:25:40 < djanatyn> I think I only did it once.
24 Jan 2010 16:25:41 < djanatyn> Or twice.
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24 Jan 2010 16:38:19 < selckiku> za'e mipype'o
24 Jan 2010 16:51:07 < selckiku> ju'i ro do mi cusku fo lo cnino .i la'o url http://selckiku.wordpress.com/ url cu du la mi valsi danre
24 Jan 2010 16:51:44 < selckiku> .i mua'a'a'a mi malgli gasnu .i mi cilce
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24 Jan 2010 18:02:46 < nonporous> do people say attitudinals by themselves? or do they have to modify bridi?
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24 Jan 2010 18:24:51 < neptunepink> ju'o
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24 Jan 2010 18:25:29 < cmacis> coi rodo
24 Jan 2010 18:25:33 < cmacis> mi na ca kakne lonu sipna .oi
24 Jan 2010 18:27:22 < neptunepink> ko ba'e sipna sai
24 Jan 2010 18:28:07 < cmacis> na kakne .oi
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24 Jan 2010 18:30:14 < neptunepink> ko kakne
24 Jan 2010 18:30:41 < cmacis> djica
24 Jan 2010 18:31:09 < neptunepink> lo skami cu sipna gau ko
24 Jan 2010 18:31:35 < nonporous> do people say attitudinals by themselves? or do they have to modify bridi?
24 Jan 2010 18:31:49 < neptunepink> ju'o
24 Jan 2010 18:32:30 < Hugglesworth> XD
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24 Jan 2010 18:35:04 < nonporous> oh i get it, i had to look at up
24 Jan 2010 18:35:16 < nonporous> lol
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24 Jan 2010 19:14:48 < izistar> coi rodo
24 Jan 2010 19:14:58 < izistar> can anyone help me make a lujvo?
24 Jan 2010 19:14:59 < Hugglesworth> coi
24 Jan 2010 19:15:11 < Hugglesworth> I can try
24 Jan 2010 19:15:32 < izistar> k, I think I know the words but I get mixed up with rafsi sometimes
24 Jan 2010 19:16:07 < izistar> I'm trying to say wild new though or wild new thinking
24 Jan 2010 19:16:25 < izistar> which would be cilce cnino pensi
24 Jan 2010 19:16:33 < izistar> I think
24 Jan 2010 19:16:51 < izistar> but I dunno how to combine them for sure
24 Jan 2010 19:18:38 < Hugglesworth> "cilce ke cnino pensi ke'e" is what I think you want
24 Jan 2010 19:19:46 < Hugglesworth> not too sure how to shove the "ke" into a lujvo
24 Jan 2010 19:21:00 < izistar> hmm thanks
24 Jan 2010 19:21:18 < izistar> how would it confuse the meaning if I just had it without the ke and ke'e
24 Jan 2010 19:21:26 < Hugglesworth> I'd probably through it together like this: "cicykeyninpei" but that's probably wrong
24 Jan 2010 19:22:00 < izistar> I mean I know that's  "wild type of (new type of thought)"
24 Jan 2010 19:22:14 < Hugglesworth> wild type of new, type of thinking; as opposed to: wild, type of new thinking
24 Jan 2010 19:22:28 < izistar> ahh ic thanks
24 Jan 2010 19:23:16 < izistar> well I'll look through my red book and see if I can find the rule for adding ke to lujvo
24 Jan 2010 19:24:29 < Hugglesworth> aha
24 Jan 2010 19:24:54 < selckiku> hi
24 Jan 2010 19:25:08 < Hugglesworth> cickemninpensi
24 Jan 2010 19:25:30 < Hugglesworth> even parses on jboski
24 Jan 2010 19:25:52 < selckiku> you can also use bo .. "bor" isn't it?
24 Jan 2010 19:26:21 < izistar> haha cool, just out of curiosity what is the m for? or why do you need to use it as a hyphen
24 Jan 2010 19:27:02 < Hugglesworth> 'kem' is the rasfi of 'ke'
24 Jan 2010 19:27:11 < selckiku> in -kem-?  it's just a coincidence sort of that kem resembles ke
24 Jan 2010 19:27:14 < izistar> ic, interesting
24 Jan 2010 19:27:40 < izistar> are you the same selckiku as on twitter?
24 Jan 2010 19:27:45 < selckiku> yes
24 Jan 2010 19:28:18 < izistar> ki'e hugglesworth
24 Jan 2010 19:28:33 < Hugglesworth> je'e
24 Jan 2010 19:28:37 < izistar> cool, you're the first lojban tweeter i found after @gismu
24 Jan 2010 19:28:57 < izistar> what's your name mean
24 Jan 2010 19:30:05 < selckiku> my lover is I X Key http://youtube.com/ixkey (he just put up a new video btw) and so in lojban he's named "ckiku", key
24 Jan 2010 19:30:16 < selckiku> so then i'm selckiku, lock
24 Jan 2010 19:30:36 < izistar> ah, nice
24 Jan 2010 19:31:03 < selckiku> xorxes suggested also "stela", which is a bit like an english name, even if it is a woman's name, and also means "lock"
24 Jan 2010 19:31:05 < izistar> well keep up the lojban tweeting, I have to learn this language some way .ui
24 Jan 2010 19:31:10 < selckiku> so now i'm "stela selckiku"
24 Jan 2010 19:31:53 < selckiku> is it helpful if i tweet little lojban lessons?  i was wondering if anyone noticed
24 Jan 2010 19:31:59 < selckiku> i was thinking of using the tag #ckule perhaps
24 Jan 2010 19:33:16 < izistar> well twitter doesn't really lend itself to long lessons, but if you can manage it I'd take notice at least
24 Jan 2010 19:33:25 < cmacis> night
24 Jan 2010 19:33:29 < cmacis> sipna co'o rodo
24 Jan 2010 19:34:23 < selckiku> co'o .cmacis.
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24 Jan 2010 19:34:52 < selckiku> i can just say like ".u'i is an attitudinal for expressing amusement!"
24 Jan 2010 19:35:45 -!- cmacis [n=james@cpc2-brad7-0-0-cust1137.barn.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Leaving"]
24 Jan 2010 19:36:04 < selckiku> or "hey everyone, did you know that {du} has an infinite number of places?"
24 Jan 2010 19:36:32 < selckiku> zo du zo du zo du zo du zo du lo cizra valsi cu du
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24 Jan 2010 20:27:36 < nonporous> are rafsi ONLY for the purpose of forming lujvo?
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24 Jan 2010 20:54:10 < nonporous> are rafsi ONLY for the purpose of forming lujvo?
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24 Jan 2010 21:38:39 < neptunepink> coi doi rodo
24 Jan 2010 21:38:44 < neptunepink> mi viska do
24 Jan 2010 21:39:00 < neptunepink> dazo'umivIskada
24 Jan 2010 21:41:12 -!- Nuky [n=Nuky@ti0054a380-dhcp0918.bb.online.no] has joined #lojban
24 Jan 2010 21:47:17 < neptunepink> .aimiglEtutAvlalodomAmtazo'onaisainai
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24 Jan 2010 22:25:48 < nonporous> is "The Complete Lojban Language" as sold through amazon (published in 1997) still up to date?
24 Jan 2010 22:27:43 < donri> i don't think there is any second edition yet
24 Jan 2010 22:27:46 < donri> not in print
24 Jan 2010 22:28:18 < nonporous> so no major changes have been made to the language since 1997?
24 Jan 2010 22:29:04 < donri> there was a freeze, to let people learn it
24 Jan 2010 22:29:07 < donri> now there's bpfk
24 Jan 2010 22:29:54 < donri> the main things to look out for is that most people today follow the yet-to-be-official-but-expected-to-be xorlo and dotside changes
24 Jan 2010 22:30:47 < nonporous> i see
24 Jan 2010 22:31:22 < donri> dotside says that all name words must (also) be preceded by a pause, but that they thus also can contain the previously forbidden syllables (doi, la, lai)
24 Jan 2010 22:31:22 < nonporous> i heard xorlo made some changes to la le lo or something, but what are dotside changes?
24 Jan 2010 22:31:38 < nonporous> allright thanks
24 Jan 2010 22:32:28 < donri> xorlo mostly changes {lo} to be generic
24 Jan 2010 22:33:27 < neptunepink> dotside: All cmene start with a .. Now you can have la/doi/lai in your cmene.
24 Jan 2010 22:33:56 < donri> it does change other articles too, by defining them with greater precision, and maybe changing the rules regarding quantifications
24 Jan 2010 22:34:01 < donri> neptunepink, false.
24 Jan 2010 22:34:25 < donri> mi'enai la .donri. mi'e la donri
24 Jan 2010 22:34:58 < donri> (not really true either, as those are the same, but that's kinda my point. they are the same.)
24 Jan 2010 22:35:05 < neptunepink> s/cmene/cmevla
24 Jan 2010 22:35:08 < donri> :)
24 Jan 2010 22:36:46 < nonporous> is the book a considerable improvement from the online "draft" version "Lojban Reference Grammar?"
24 Jan 2010 22:36:52 < nonporous> that's what i'm reading now
24 Jan 2010 22:37:37 < donri> i don't know about considerability, but it's an improvement to the draft, sure.
24 Jan 2010 22:37:59 < donri> there's also another online version which has all the changes in print, and fixes for known errors in print.
24 Jan 2010 22:38:08 < donri> http://dag.github.com/cll/
24 Jan 2010 22:38:19 < donri> but buy the book eh! ;)
24 Jan 2010 22:39:19 < nonporous> i think i will thanks
24 Jan 2010 22:40:25 < donri> in the days before print on demand, the LLG bought more copies than it has so far been able to sell
24 Jan 2010 22:40:30 < donri> they need 'em sold
24 Jan 2010 22:41:06 < donri> maybe better to buy from the LLG directly, not sure.
24 Jan 2010 22:43:43 < nonporous> it's their store on amazon
24 Jan 2010 22:44:09 < nonporous> and i got linked to it from lojban.org
24 Jan 2010 22:47:16 < donri> lojban.org is a wiki :P
24 Jan 2010 22:47:56 < donri> i'm not saying it *isn't*, i just don't know. could be cheaper and more beneficial for the LLG to buy from them. don't know.
24 Jan 2010 22:48:06 < donri> rlpowell, ?
24 Jan 2010 22:48:17 < donri> is the LLG selling CLL on amazon?
24 Jan 2010 22:50:16 < nonporous> hm i thought it was LLG's site
24 Jan 2010 22:57:40 < donri> it (kinda) is, but anyone can still edit
24 Jan 2010 22:57:52 < nonporous> hm
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24 Jan 2010 23:36:06 < nonporous> the following two phrases sound awfully alike to me:
24 Jan 2010 23:36:06 < nonporous> the tanru: "mamta patfu"
24 Jan 2010 23:36:06 < nonporous> and the unreduced lujvo: "mamtypatfu"
24 Jan 2010 23:36:37 < nonporous> i know in principle they should sound different, but when talking fast they sound really similar to me- am i pronouncing something wrong?
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24 Jan 2010 23:47:28 < treed> yes
24 Jan 2010 23:47:43 < treed> you're dropping unstressed a to y
24 Jan 2010 23:47:56 < treed> which is very typical in English (and Russian for that matter)
24 Jan 2010 23:47:59 < treed> Try to avoid that.
24 Jan 2010 23:48:08 < treed> Another common error is final -e to -ei
24 Jan 2010 23:48:19 < treed> It should always be pronounced like "eh"
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24 Jan 2010 23:53:29 < nonporous> i see, thank you
25 Jan 2010 00:12:24 < neptunepink> nonporous: tolpanje
25 Jan 2010 00:12:47 < nonporous> hmm?
25 Jan 2010 00:16:02 < donri> stress make them stand apart quite much pe'i
25 Jan 2010 00:17:18 <@rlpowell> donri: Yes.
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25 Jan 2010 00:38:42 < lindar> Yep.
25 Jan 2010 00:39:56  * lindar *poek*
25 Jan 2010 00:43:42  * neptunepink parries
25 Jan 2010 00:43:56 < mathw> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 00:45:58 < mathw> .i lo jeftu cu cfari
25 Jan 2010 00:46:09 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.7.143] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 00:50:06 < lindar> ...
25 Jan 2010 00:50:10 < lindar> -___-
25 Jan 2010 00:50:19 < lindar> mathw: Reread the definition of cfari.
25 Jan 2010 00:50:28 < ThirtySeconds> _---_
25 Jan 2010 00:50:56 < lindar> Wow, I thought I was depressed. ThirtySeconds is not only depressed, but upside-down.
25 Jan 2010 00:53:24 < donri> lindar, easy on the herbs there, eh
25 Jan 2010 00:53:54 < lindar> Herbs?
25 Jan 2010 00:54:11 < donri> don't smoke so much.
25 Jan 2010 00:55:14 < mathw> hmm, yes, I see what you mean
25 Jan 2010 00:59:05 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 00:59:54 < mathw> Still, that fits about right with the rest of the beginning of the week except for in the sole detail of my dealings with my bank, which have actually gone rather well.
25 Jan 2010 01:00:21 < mathw> So I should have no expectation of being able to construct a coherent utterance in Lojban today.
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25 Jan 2010 01:04:10 < lindar> You needed an abstraction.
25 Jan 2010 01:05:59 < mathw> Oh, those
25 Jan 2010 01:06:10 < mathw> The thing I started to grasp the edges of last week
25 Jan 2010 01:07:58 < donri> You needed a distraction.
25 Jan 2010 01:09:12 < donri> abstracts are predicate relations referring to predicate relationships. simple. :)
25 Jan 2010 01:09:42 < mathw> yes... simple...
25 Jan 2010 01:11:42 < donri> in lojblish terms, they turn bridi into selbri
25 Jan 2010 01:12:17 < mathw> The problem I generally have with them is figuring out which one does what I need to do
25 Jan 2010 01:12:18 < donri> in turn most commonly turned into sumti by use of gadri
25 Jan 2010 01:12:27 < mathw> Also, remembering where to find them
25 Jan 2010 01:12:30 < mathw> and what's a gadri?
25 Jan 2010 01:12:37 < donri> articles, lo, la, le...
25 Jan 2010 01:13:28 < donri> a bridi, relation, is the interaction of sumti, arguments, and selbri, a relationship
25 Jan 2010 01:13:38 < donri> other way around
25 Jan 2010 01:13:41 < donri> i mix these up all the time
25 Jan 2010 01:13:42 < donri> lol
25 Jan 2010 01:13:47  * donri great teaher
25 Jan 2010 01:16:14 < tomoj> tomoj great peahen
25 Jan 2010 01:17:24 < tomoj> peacocks are polygamous!
25 Jan 2010 01:19:52 -!- EG [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 01:20:29 < EG> ah - I see you'd answered that anyway donri
25 Jan 2010 01:20:31 < EG> :)
25 Jan 2010 01:20:36 < mathw> it's okay donri, I get them mixed up too
25 Jan 2010 01:21:01  * lindar is am smrater than the donri.
25 Jan 2010 01:21:24 < lindar> Do is askt meeee.... >_Q
25 Jan 2010 01:22:20 < tomoj> eh
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25 Jan 2010 01:25:16 < mathw> So thinking back to my terrible Lojban, which abstraction did I want?
25 Jan 2010 01:27:25 < tomoj> hmm
25 Jan 2010 01:27:34 < tomoj> I think "the week" can be a process
25 Jan 2010 01:28:21 < tomoj> "how was your week?"
25 Jan 2010 01:29:02 < tomoj> what is _your_ week? it's the process you went through for the past 7 or so days
25 Jan 2010 01:29:07 -!- gunkamanti__ [n=sarefo@213.83.32.130] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 01:30:05 < mathw> actually my week was a series of events lasting seven days
25 Jan 2010 01:30:11 < mathw> I'm not sure I'd call it a process
25 Jan 2010 01:30:34 < TwitchingAnus> how were the aggregate experiences of your week?
25 Jan 2010 01:30:53 -!- ThirtySeconds [n=30@S010600226b4f6b52.cc.shawcable.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
25 Jan 2010 01:31:01 < neptunepink> how was your experience of the past 7 days?
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25 Jan 2010 01:32:16 < mathw> it varied
25 Jan 2010 01:32:43 < ThirtySeconds> I wonder if we can incorporate the various strftime variations of week as words
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25 Jan 2010 01:49:54  * lindar explode.
25 Jan 2010 01:51:20  * EG glues lindar back together again
25 Jan 2010 01:53:49 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 01:54:08 < lindar> Heeeeeeeey, I've not seen you before.
25 Jan 2010 01:54:30  * mathw fails to find the word he's looking for
25 Jan 2010 01:54:44 < mathw> How would I say that I would rather be doing $something else
25 Jan 2010 01:55:58  * EG is EnglishGent
25 Jan 2010 01:56:05 < EG> but I am quite new here :)
25 Jan 2010 01:56:19 < mathw> hello
25 Jan 2010 01:56:28 < mathw> are you, by any chance, English?
25 Jan 2010 01:56:56 < EG> yes!
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25 Jan 2010 01:57:01 < EG> how did you guess? :)
25 Jan 2010 01:57:51 -!- ThirtySeconds [n=30@S010600226b4f6b52.cc.shawcable.net] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 01:58:48 < mathw> It's a gift
25 Jan 2010 02:00:14 -!- ThirtySeconds [n=30@S010600226b4f6b52.cc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
25 Jan 2010 02:01:30 < EG> where are you from mathw? (curious) :)
25 Jan 2010 02:03:51 -!- stupid2 [n=Arrgh@91-65-140-21-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 02:05:18 < stupid2> coi ro do
25 Jan 2010 02:06:59 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.7.143] has quit ["Leaving."]
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25 Jan 2010 02:15:45 < mathw> EG: England :)
25 Jan 2010 02:19:26 -!- ThirtySeconds [n=30@S010600226b4f6b52.cc.shawcable.net] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 02:19:43 < lindar> Wow, lot's of English people suddenly.
25 Jan 2010 02:19:52 < lindar> Did the lot of you hear about us from BBC Radio?