25 Jan 2010 02:21:22 < ThirtySeconds> But does lojban have six words for menstruation?
25 Jan 2010 02:22:39 <@Broca> I don't know, but Láadan has at least that many.
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25 Jan 2010 02:25:33 < mathw> No, I heard about Lojban before then
25 Jan 2010 02:25:51 < mathw> I was reading about constructed languages more generally, because someone was trying to persuade me to learn Esperanto
25 Jan 2010 02:28:43 < ThirtySeconds> Do you/they know multiple natlangs?
25 Jan 2010 02:29:50 < djanatyn> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 02:30:01 < ThirtySeconds> coi djanatyn
25 Jan 2010 02:30:22 < djanatyn> HTOP
25 Jan 2010 02:30:24 < djanatyn> ls
25 Jan 2010 02:30:28 -!- djanatyn [n=djanatyn@pool-74-98-199-53.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
25 Jan 2010 02:32:05 < lindar> xD Hilariously enough, I came across Lojban because I was interested in learning Esperanto.
25 Jan 2010 02:32:15 < lindar> I didn't learn a single thing of it until about a week ago.
25 Jan 2010 02:32:28 < lindar> I still don't know a whole hell of a lot because natlangs confuse me.
25 Jan 2010 02:32:52 < lindar> There's too much that's supposed to be "intuitive" about it without regular rules.
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25 Jan 2010 02:34:12 < djanatyn> oops.
25 Jan 2010 02:34:36 < mathw> ThirtySeconds: I know some German, as well as my native English, but I'm far from fluent in it
25 Jan 2010 02:34:56 < ThirtySeconds> that's more then I know :p
25 Jan 2010 02:35:05 < mathw> Lojban is about a million times easier
25 Jan 2010 02:35:20 < mathw> Even though I do still have lots of problems with it, I've barely been learning it for six weeks yet
25 Jan 2010 02:35:56 < djanatyn> \o/
25 Jan 2010 02:36:19 < mathw> That I know as much as I do (more than I expected) at this stage is a testament to the consistency of the grammar and the usefulness of the tools available
25 Jan 2010 02:36:30 < mathw> although perhaps makfa helps me *avoid* learning vocabulary properly
25 Jan 2010 02:36:50 < mathw> but if you talk about something often enough, the words stick
25 Jan 2010 02:36:57 < mathw> ...which is why I can always remember {cakla}
25 Jan 2010 02:40:37 < mathw> I tried translating a song the other day. It was difficult.
25 Jan 2010 02:40:47  * EG waves to mathw :)
25 Jan 2010 02:41:54 < mathw> mi rinsa la'oi EG
25 Jan 2010 02:42:19 < mathw> (I'm fairly sure Lojban names can't start with a vowel?)
25 Jan 2010 02:42:36 < djanatyn> .EG?
25 Jan 2010 02:42:44 < djanatyn> .EG.
25 Jan 2010 02:42:55 < djanatyn> coi .eg.
25 Jan 2010 02:43:19 < EG> coi djanatyn
25 Jan 2010 02:43:44 < EG> I'm sorry - I've only had a couple of lessons so far so I dont know what you mean mathw
25 Jan 2010 02:44:08  * EG knows what a brivla is, ditto sumti & selbri - 'mi' and a few basic terms
25 Jan 2010 02:44:10 < EG> and that's it
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25 Jan 2010 02:44:29 < mathw> {rinsa} is x1 greets/hails x2 in manner x3
25 Jan 2010 02:44:46 < mathw> la'oi is an experimental cmavo which quotes a one-word non-Lojban name (very useful in here)
25 Jan 2010 02:45:37 < EG> ah :)
25 Jan 2010 02:45:47  * EG files away more stuff in memory
25 Jan 2010 02:45:59 < EG> :)
25 Jan 2010 02:46:16 < EG> um - what's a cmavo?
25 Jan 2010 02:46:21 < mathw> umm
25 Jan 2010 02:46:23 < mathw> that I can't tell you
25 Jan 2010 02:46:35 < mathw> I kind of know how to use some of them but I don't know what the category actually is
25 Jan 2010 02:46:39 < EG> ok
25 Jan 2010 02:46:47 < EG> I'm sure I'll get to it eventually :)
25 Jan 2010 02:46:54 < mathw> probably :)
25 Jan 2010 02:48:32 < mathw> The other thing you need to remember is that I make a lot of mistakes, so don't trust my Lojban to ever be entirely correct
25 Jan 2010 02:49:18 < lindar> Sorry, I'm back.
25 Jan 2010 02:49:21 < lindar> what's the question now?
25 Jan 2010 02:49:34 < djanatyn> hi lindar! \o/
25 Jan 2010 02:49:47  * djanatyn woke up early to do his essay, which he realized was due this morning.
25 Jan 2010 02:49:59 < lindar> btw: Don't go teaching newbies experimental valsi until they know from what it's derived.
25 Jan 2010 02:50:34 < lindar> mathw and eg, do you know how to use {la} and {la'o}?
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25 Jan 2010 02:50:48 < mathw> lindar: I do
25 Jan 2010 02:50:52 -!- djanatyn_ is now known as djanatyn
25 Jan 2010 02:50:56 < djanatyn> .u'u
25 Jan 2010 02:51:05 < mathw> la'oi is just a contraction of la la'o isn't it?
25 Jan 2010 02:51:13 < mathw> an unofficial one
25 Jan 2010 02:51:20 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 02:51:29 < lindar> No, there aren't 'contractions' in lojban.
25 Jan 2010 02:51:39 < mathw> I know, it's not something you can do
25 Jan 2010 02:52:01 < mathw> but in meaning
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25 Jan 2010 02:52:20 < lindar> However, it's a functional contraction of {zo} and {la'o}.
25 Jan 2010 02:52:26 < djanatyn> :)
25 Jan 2010 02:52:27 < mathw> understanding that the word 'contraction' is a bad choice
25 Jan 2010 02:52:59  * djanatyn yawns and gets to work
25 Jan 2010 02:53:02 < mathw> oh {zo}. of course.
25 Jan 2010 02:53:04 < lindar> zo - zoi - zo'oi, la - la'o - la'oi
25 Jan 2010 02:53:12  * djanatyn citka lo kukte cirlynanba
25 Jan 2010 02:53:17 < djanatyn> .uicai
25 Jan 2010 02:54:17 < mathw> .i mi nelci lo cirlynanba
25 Jan 2010 02:55:37 < djanatyn> nom nmo nom
25 Jan 2010 02:56:19  * djanatyn gets his essay done
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25 Jan 2010 03:36:44 < EG> no I dont lindar
25 Jan 2010 03:36:45 < EG> :|
25 Jan 2010 03:37:13 < lindar> Ah.
25 Jan 2010 03:37:25 < lindar> EG: You know how {la} works, yes?
25 Jan 2010 03:41:58 < EG> no lindar - I've *really* only had 1 lesson ... I know about 6 words & a bit about the grammar :)
25 Jan 2010 03:43:02  * EG now knows what a brivla is, a selbri & sumti - mi, do, pendo, ma, zo'e & a couple of others
25 Jan 2010 03:43:21  * EG had the 1 lesson from xalbo - and hoping to catch him for another :)
25 Jan 2010 03:43:54 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 03:44:04 < lindar> Okay, did you learn about lo/ku?
25 Jan 2010 03:46:51 < EG> no :)
25 Jan 2010 03:51:01 < Sonja> lo means "the one who/which is ..."
25 Jan 2010 03:51:26 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 03:51:31  * lindar pats Sonja on the head.
25 Jan 2010 03:51:34 < Sonja> prenu = to be a person
25 Jan 2010 03:51:45 < Sonja> lo prenu ku = a/the person
25 Jan 2010 03:53:03 < lindar> Usually we reserve a whole lesson for this, but I'm used to teaching common people, not super-genius ADD University-level linguists with a Master's Degree in something, so maybe that's enough to cover it. =D
25 Jan 2010 03:53:17 < Sonja> a similar particle is le/ku which means "the one I believe is..."
25 Jan 2010 03:53:41 < Sonja> i'm not a university-level linguist with a master's degree :)
25 Jan 2010 03:53:44 < lindar> Sonja: You make it sound like a simple concept with such a direct translation.
25 Jan 2010 03:54:16 < Sonja> yeah, it's my biggest complaint against lojban teaching. lojbanists try to obscure everything with weird lojban words
25 Jan 2010 03:54:24 < Sonja> instead of giving simple english equivalents :)
25 Jan 2010 03:54:25 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 03:54:32 < lindar> Yes, because they're not nouns.
25 Jan 2010 03:54:39 < Sonja> i realize they're not always exact matches, but it's a good and quick starting point
25 Jan 2010 03:54:39 < lindar> They never have been nouns, never will be nouns.
25 Jan 2010 03:54:43 < lindar> <3
25 Jan 2010 03:54:59 < Sonja> i should write my own lojban course
25 Jan 2010 03:55:06 < Sonja> "lojban taught in plain english"
25 Jan 2010 03:55:06 < Sonja> hehe
25 Jan 2010 03:55:16 < lindar> The point is that we like to teach these concepts along with the matching words so we don't have to, at a later time, RE-teach them everything with the Lojban word.
25 Jan 2010 03:56:04 < Sonja> ok so later you learn vocab like prenu = to be a person, and sumti = to be a noun
25 Jan 2010 03:56:06 < lindar> If some newbie came in and asked, "What's the noun for an apple?" we'd all be very confused.
25 Jan 2010 03:56:31 < Sonja> and i would tell them to use the verb plise "to be an apple"
25 Jan 2010 03:56:49 < lindar> >_> Except that it's not a verb.
25 Jan 2010 03:56:51 < Sonja> and the noob would thank me for being useful :)
25 Jan 2010 03:57:29 < Sonja> yeah, it's a selbri, which very roughly translates to verb in the way it behaves in a sentence
25 Jan 2010 03:57:37 < lindar> It's based on predicate logic. If you -had- to use any English equivalent, use the math equivalent.
25 Jan 2010 03:57:53 < lindar> It's a function.
25 Jan 2010 03:57:56 < Sonja> i'm teaching/learning from a human languages perspective, not a mathy one
25 Jan 2010 03:58:07 < Sonja> yeah function is better term for those who know functions
25 Jan 2010 03:58:47 < lindar> Okay, but you have to consider a certain level of compatibility. Say that you aren't here and a newb comes in to ask a question about how X verb works in Lojban.
25 Jan 2010 03:59:01 < lindar> We're all going to be very confused and then explain what a selbri is.
25 Jan 2010 03:59:26 < lindar> So why not teach the correct term when teaching the concept and just say "It works kinda like a verb."?
25 Jan 2010 03:59:27 < Sonja> i replace your confusion with a finger that points in the right general direction
25 Jan 2010 03:59:47 < Sonja> yeah if it works kinda like a verb, i call it a Lojban verb
25 Jan 2010 03:59:51 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 04:00:04 < Sonja> and i know that Lojban verbs work slightly differently from English ones, just as German ones work slightly differently from Chinese or ASL ones
25 Jan 2010 04:00:10  * lindar gives up.
25 Jan 2010 04:00:14 < Sonja> :)
25 Jan 2010 04:00:56 < lindar> I get your point. My point is that they're not called verbs, nobody calls them verbs, and you'd have to explain to every single person in here what you meant when you said verbs, so you should probably prescribe to using the -correct- terminology.
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25 Jan 2010 04:01:21 < EG> yeah - I have to agree that using the parts-of-speech for english dont fit lojban very well
25 Jan 2010 04:01:24 < lindar> That aside, whatever, you're probably a hell of a lot smarter than me, so call them bananas for all I care. <3
25 Jan 2010 04:01:28 < Sonja> i don't like the philosophy that assumes you can never translate something and you must give up by leaving the foreign word untranslated
25 Jan 2010 04:01:36 < EG> and trying to force lojban words into them is just going to confuse people
25 Jan 2010 04:01:43 < Sonja> i'm a translator
25 Jan 2010 04:01:51 < Sonja> lojbanists are not the only guilty ones
25 Jan 2010 04:02:00 < Sonja> anime fansub translators have the same problem
25 Jan 2010 04:02:10 < Sonja> they leave in all sorts of random japanese words and claim they can't be translated
25 Jan 2010 04:02:18 < Sonja> yoga instructors do the same thing
25 Jan 2010 04:02:29 < lindar> Can you translate name suffixes in Japanese to a decent gloss in English?
25 Jan 2010 04:02:30 < EG> what languages do you translate Sonja? (curious) :)
25 Jan 2010 04:02:30 < Sonja> they leave in plenty of sanskrit words instead of just translating them to their english equivalents
25 Jan 2010 04:03:02 < Sonja> i see it as a way a community embraces the obscure to make themselves feel special
25 Jan 2010 04:03:07 < Sonja> and geeky
25 Jan 2010 04:03:14 < lindar> How would you translate "Tomoko-chan" for example?
25 Jan 2010 04:03:29 < Sonja> but i value accessibility and clarity, especially if i'm trying to teach a language
25 Jan 2010 04:03:46  * EG apologises but think's he has to go collapse for a bit - not feeling too good irl :|
25 Jan 2010 04:03:48 < EG> ttyl all
25 Jan 2010 04:03:53 < lindar> Take care.
25 Jan 2010 04:04:04 < Sonja> french has two different words for "you" based on politeness. when french novels are translated to english, you don't see the translator claiming they must use the french words "tu" and "vous" because there is no exact english equivalent
25 Jan 2010 04:04:25 < lindar> Yeah, but a meaning is lost.
25 Jan 2010 04:04:30 < Sonja> and mangling english into some sort of french-english hybrid that requires the reader to know french to understand the english
25 Jan 2010 04:04:41 < lindar> It's an unfortunate thing.
25 Jan 2010 04:04:48 < Sonja> meaning is always lost
25 Jan 2010 04:05:09 < Sonja> that's why the translator, if they are good, can render the ideas in a well-expressed and seamless way in the target language
25 Jan 2010 04:05:56 < lindar> ^ previous question
25 Jan 2010 04:06:03 < Sonja> the french word banlieue means suburb, but it also has connotations of crime in the way that downtown carries for english-speakers
25 Jan 2010 04:06:17 < Sonja> so why not leave "banlieue" untranslated and put lengthy footnotes
25 Jan 2010 04:06:18 < Sonja> etc
25 Jan 2010 04:06:38 < Sonja> it gets out of hand, and basically it's a lazy translator not doing their job of deciding what is the intended meaning here and rendering it in clear english
25 Jan 2010 04:06:55 < Sonja> instead of giving up and saying "ohhh it's impossible to translate it exactly the way the french word means"
25 Jan 2010 04:07:04 < Sonja> for -chan?
25 Jan 2010 04:07:13 < lindar> How would you translate "Tomoko-chan" for example? <--------my question you've stampeded over so far
25 Jan 2010 04:07:34 < Sonja> ok let me look up its meaning
25 Jan 2010 04:07:34 < lindar> =D
25 Jan 2010 04:07:39 < Sonja> " Chan (ちゃん?) ("kins") is a diminutive suffix; it expresses that the speaker finds a person endearing. "
25 Jan 2010 04:07:57 < Sonja> OK in English we already have many ways to express endearment
25 Jan 2010 04:08:02 < lindar> It's an affectionate suffix used for friends, generally female, and as it says, diminutive in nature.
25 Jan 2010 04:08:03 < Sonja> I might call you Lindie
25 Jan 2010 04:08:24 < lindar> How about senpai?
25 Jan 2010 04:08:25 < Sonja> Melissa might be shortened to Mellie or Mel
25 Jan 2010 04:08:32 < lindar> -kun?
25 Jan 2010 04:08:37 < lindar> -sama?
25 Jan 2010 04:08:55 < Sonja> " Senpai (先輩 【せんぱい】?) is used to address or refer to one's senior colleagues in a school, company, sports club, or other group. "
25 Jan 2010 04:09:09 < lindar> Do you know the difference between -kun and -chan? How would you express it in English to call a boy Kaneda-chan?
25 Jan 2010 04:09:42 < Sonja> English doesn't have an equivalent of senpai that I know of, because we don't treat senior colleagues in any special way, do we?
25 Jan 2010 04:10:21 < Sonja> in that case "lindar-senpai" would translate to english as "lindar"
25 Jan 2010 04:10:22 < lindar> =D Exactly.
25 Jan 2010 04:10:36 < Sonja> "lindar-senpai" is not english. it's japanese.
25 Jan 2010 04:10:55 < lindar> Yes, but it doesn't imply the hauteur that it does in Japanese.
25 Jan 2010 04:11:17 < Sonja> and if that hauteur is vital to understanding a certain sentence, you can render it in other ways
25 Jan 2010 04:11:26 < Sonja> but generally i'd leave it out because it's not as important in english
25 Jan 2010 04:11:39 < Sonja> just like you casual vs you formal is not as important in english
25 Jan 2010 04:11:47 < Sonja> but you can still show formal speech vs casual speech in other ways
25 Jan 2010 04:11:51 < Sonja> using contractions
25 Jan 2010 04:11:57 < Sonja> certain vocabulary choices
25 Jan 2010 04:12:04 < Sonja> using "sir" to address somebody
25 Jan 2010 04:12:18 < Sonja> Vous êtes le prochain. = You are next, sir.
25 Jan 2010 04:13:04 < Sonja> my point is that English is a complete language, and if we start mixing it up with random japanese or lojban words, only people who also speak japanese or lojban will understand what the english speaker is trying to say in proper english.
25 Jan 2010 04:13:20 < Sonja> this makes the supposedly english utterances inacessible to real english speakers
25 Jan 2010 04:13:50 < Sonja> i realize that jargon will happen in every specialized community, e.g. anime nerds, lojbanists, etc.
25 Jan 2010 04:13:59 < lindar> What about something critical to the plot point? For example, the diminutive suffix "-chan" is -not- used for guys (the suffix -kun is preferred as the male casual suffix), but between -very- dear friends, it's generally appropriate to refer to a man with the diminutive suffix. However, a girl may call a guy, whom she has know for several years, by that suffix though he does not like it and does not want to be embarrassed by his fri
25 Jan 2010 04:13:59 < lindar> ends for being addressed in such a way. There's nothing else in the text regarding the way she speaks to him, just the fact that she calls him by the diminutive name suffix. How do you translate this?
25 Jan 2010 04:14:11 < Sonja> but my point is that it's not really necessary. english can clearly express itself without resorting to such weird mishmashes.
25 Jan 2010 04:14:58 < Sonja> lindar > lindie-poo
25 Jan 2010 04:15:05 < lindar> Also, what's wrong with -borrowing- words? We do that all the time with Latin and Greek words, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, French, German, and many other languages.
25 Jan 2010 04:15:23 < Sonja> i'm sure a good english writer could come up with plenty of pet names for lindar that would be embarassing to your male friends
25 Jan 2010 04:15:24 < Sonja> or whatever
25 Jan 2010 04:15:25 < lindar> Lindie-poo implies a cutesy attitude. There's no cutesy in there. =D
25 Jan 2010 04:15:47 < Sonja> well the idea you want to translate is one of diminutive and embarassing if used in public?
25 Jan 2010 04:16:06 < lindar> You don't speak Japanese, do you?
25 Jan 2010 04:16:13 < Sonja> no i don't
25 Jan 2010 04:16:20 < Sonja> that's why i'm using more french examples
25 Jan 2010 04:16:33 < lindar> Okay, what I'm trying to explain takes a lot of understanding of Japanese culture. =D
25 Jan 2010 04:16:36 < Sonja> to show how we don't do the same behaviour in french even though i could argue that we should
25 Jan 2010 04:16:41 < Sonja> i have no problems with loanwords.
25 Jan 2010 04:16:52 < lindar> Then why can't you use Lojban loanwords?
25 Jan 2010 04:17:10 < Sonja> but if there's already one or several ways to express something, why introduce an obscure loanword that won't be found in dictionaries, etc.
25 Jan 2010 04:17:26 < Sonja> english has ways to form diminutives. english has ways to describe grammatical parts of speech. etc.
25 Jan 2010 04:17:34 < lindar> Because we explain its meaning along with what it is. =D
25 Jan 2010 04:17:44 < Sonja> sure
25 Jan 2010 04:17:50 < lindar> "A selbri is this. This is how it works."
25 Jan 2010 04:18:13 < Sonja> like when teaching french grammar i could say "here is the passé composé, here is the imparfait"
25 Jan 2010 04:18:22 < Sonja> or i could just use already existing english equivalents for those tenses
25 Jan 2010 04:18:34 < Sonja> there is no harm to know both terms of course
25 Jan 2010 04:18:41 < Sonja> when speaking in french, one uses the french term
25 Jan 2010 04:18:47 < Sonja> when speaking in english, one uses english words
25 Jan 2010 04:18:51 < lindar> Yes, but French is a natural language, and we actually have -direct- and -perfect- translations that are actually derivatives of those French words.
25 Jan 2010 04:19:12 < lindar> Past tense and imperfect.
25 Jan 2010 04:19:20 < lindar> Actually derived FROM French!
25 Jan 2010 04:19:36 < lindar> So it would be unusual to call them in French when speaking English.
25 Jan 2010 04:20:19 < Sonja> Lojban acts as if it invented something totally new that doesn't exist in other languages.
25 Jan 2010 04:20:22 < lindar> However, I introduce you to a new invention, and I call it the "computer". I explain to you how it works, and you say, "Pffft. Why make up a new word for this when we already have English words? It's a magic adding box.".
25 Jan 2010 04:20:36 < Sonja> computer is not a new word
25 Jan 2010 04:20:39 < Sonja> it's a thing that computes
25 Jan 2010 04:20:45 < Sonja> to compute was a word
25 Jan 2010 04:20:48 < Sonja> they used the -er suffix
25 Jan 2010 04:20:51 < Sonja> same as printer
25 Jan 2010 04:20:56 < Sonja> it used to be a thing to smoosh ink on paper
25 Jan 2010 04:20:57 < lindar> Okay, and why do we call it a calculator instead of a digital abacus?
25 Jan 2010 04:21:03 < Sonja> now it's a thing that squirts ink on paper
25 Jan 2010 04:21:23 < lindar> Type writer? Mechanical writing machine!
25 Jan 2010 04:21:27 < Sonja> ?
25 Jan 2010 04:21:34 < Sonja> i don't understand what you're trying to express here
25 Jan 2010 04:21:38 < lindar> Plantain? It looks like a banana, so just call it a banana since we already have that word.
25 Jan 2010 04:22:00 < Sonja> they could have called it starchy banana or something
25 Jan 2010 04:22:04 < lindar> That's actually a perfect example. >_<
25 Jan 2010 04:22:22 < Sonja> with specific species loanwords are more common
25 Jan 2010 04:22:41 < Sonja> because one language will not already have names for plants and animals that are not native to the area where the language evolved
25 Jan 2010 04:22:44 < lindar> Everybody in the western world knows what a banana is. We have plantains in Lojbanistan. You want to call them bananas even though they don't taste like bananas and you don't prepare or serve them like bananas because they look kinda like bananas.
25 Jan 2010 04:23:01 < lindar> That's my point.
25 Jan 2010 04:23:08 < Sonja> i see the use of having names for specific species
25 Jan 2010 04:23:20 < Sonja> but it's not as if lojban has two types of things that could be confused for verbs
25 Jan 2010 04:23:30 < Sonja> selbri behave a lot like verbs
25 Jan 2010 04:23:31 < lindar> Yeah, we do.
25 Jan 2010 04:23:34 < Sonja> and they are verbs to me
25 Jan 2010 04:23:41 < Sonja> admittedly i'm not fluent in lojban
25 Jan 2010 04:23:54 < lindar> selbri is a generic name that comes from {se zei bridi}. We have two different kinds, gismu and cmavo.
25 Jan 2010 04:23:55 < Sonja> but the analogy has helped me learn fast
25 Jan 2010 04:24:21 < Sonja> root words and structure words
25 Jan 2010 04:24:39 < lindar> While the analogy helps you, it doesn't help everybody.
25 Jan 2010 04:24:43 < Sonja> ok
25 Jan 2010 04:24:54 < Sonja> i guess my memory works better if i connect a new idea to one i already know
25 Jan 2010 04:25:12 < Sonja> like if i was a newcomer to jamaica and saw plantains i might call them "starchy bananas" for the first few weeks
25 Jan 2010 04:25:19 < Sonja> until i remember the damn word for them
25 Jan 2010 04:25:25 < lindar> >_> What's with you and Jamaica?
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25 Jan 2010 04:25:34 < Sonja> you're the one who brought up plaintains
25 Jan 2010 04:25:46 < lindar> Yeah, but this is the second time you've brought something up about Jamaica.
25 Jan 2010 04:25:56 < Sonja> where else do you eat plantains?
25 Jan 2010 04:26:01 < lindar> Some previous day you asked what the gismu for Jamaica was.
25 Jan 2010 04:26:08 < Sonja> all the places wehre you get plantain dishes in toronto are jamaican restaurants
25 Jan 2010 04:26:13 < Sonja> i associate plantains with jamaica
25 Jan 2010 04:26:58 < Sonja> i guess we have a lot of jamaicans in toronto, so i wanted to know the word. it's a relevant culture word i need to know, alongside german or american or canadian
25 Jan 2010 04:27:00 < lindar> "Hawaii, the Caribbean, Central America, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Southern Brazil, the Canary Islands, the countries surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, Madeira, Egypt, Cameroon, Ghana, Nigeria, Uganda, Okinawa, Taiwan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, the Pacific Islands and northern Australia."
25 Jan 2010 04:27:23 < Sonja> i live near a jamaican neighbourhood
25 Jan 2010 04:27:24 < lindar> I thought they were more South American than tropical.
25 Jan 2010 04:27:48 < Sonja> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglinton_West
25 Jan 2010 04:27:55 < Sonja> showertime then go to work
25 Jan 2010 04:27:56 < Sonja> bai bai!
25 Jan 2010 04:27:56 < lindar> However, I live in Ellay, so maybe that's my local bias. =P
25 Jan 2010 04:28:04 < lindar> Cheers.
25 Jan 2010 04:30:03 -!- djanatyn_ [n=root@host-69-95-83-226.pit.choiceone.net] has joined #lojban
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25 Jan 2010 04:36:46  * djanatyn_ dansu
25 Jan 2010 04:40:26 < lindar> Your face.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:09 < djanatyn_> I have 20 minutes to get to school.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:11 < djanatyn_> I'm really pushing it.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:25 < djanatyn_> Sure, I'm 2 blocks away from school, but I have a habit of not getting up until 5 minutes before.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:29 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit []
25 Jan 2010 04:41:32 < djanatyn_> I think I'm going to buy some more breakfast.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:38 -!- cirzgamanti`` [n=sarefo@xdsl-78-34-164-29.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
25 Jan 2010 04:41:39 -!- clsn [n=shoulson@pi.meson.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
25 Jan 2010 04:41:45 < djanatyn_> I can't believe it, but I think I'm going to spend my entire allowance in one day.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:51 < djanatyn_> Man, people are quitting like flies.
25 Jan 2010 04:41:56 -!- cirzgamanti`` [n=sarefo@xdsl-78-35-77-209.netcologne.de] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 04:43:55 < djanatyn_> I really need to go.
25 Jan 2010 04:44:00 < djanatyn_> lindar, tell me to leave.
25 Jan 2010 04:44:45 < timonator> leave or i'll hate you forever
25 Jan 2010 04:44:53 < lindar> o_O
25 Jan 2010 04:45:00 < lindar> Go away?
25 Jan 2010 04:46:07 < djanatyn_> SEE I HAVEN'T EVEN LEFT YET
25 Jan 2010 04:46:08 -!- aluink [n=aluink@c-67-167-174-234.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 04:46:22 < djanatyn_> It is actually *difficult* for me to act upon my decisions and leave.
25 Jan 2010 04:46:41 < djanatyn_> Like, I don't want to go away.
25 Jan 2010 04:46:42 < timonator> we have made the decision for you. this is not your decision.
25 Jan 2010 04:46:45 < timonator> now leave
25 Jan 2010 04:46:48 < timonator> you will come back
25 Jan 2010 04:46:51 < timonator> we will be there still
25 Jan 2010 04:46:51 < djanatyn_> MI XEBNI DO
25 Jan 2010 04:46:58  * djanatyn_ leaves in a rush of anger
25 Jan 2010 04:47:24 < djanatyn_> co'o loi selxei
25 Jan 2010 04:47:26 < djanatyn_> ;)
25 Jan 2010 04:47:27 -!- djanatyn_ [n=root@host-69-95-83-226.pit.choiceone.net] has quit ["leaving"]
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25 Jan 2010 05:00:38 < lindar> I like this little exchange we have going on right now. My roommate sleeps at night, gets up to go to the toilet some time in the middle of the night, which provides me an opportunity to get up and get something without having to worry about noise, and I sleep like a log so he can do whatever the hell he wants during the day. =D
25 Jan 2010 05:04:17 < lindar> Well, you folks are boring.
25 Jan 2010 05:06:53 < timonator> i am now making breakfast
25 Jan 2010 05:07:11 < timonator> and i'm considering wether the pants i am wearing now look good or not. i'm such a gay
25 Jan 2010 05:08:08 < mathw> I realised in a meeting this morning that my trousers and jumper are sufficiently similar shades of blue to look terrible together. It was not a very interesting meeting.
25 Jan 2010 05:08:23 < timonator> oops.
25 Jan 2010 05:08:44 < timonator> what's a jumper?
25 Jan 2010 05:08:46 < mathw> this is what comes of dressing before 10am
25 Jan 2010 05:08:53 < mathw> pullover
25 Jan 2010 05:08:54 < mathw> sweater
25 Jan 2010 05:09:08 < timonator> http://www.magicblogz.com/images/Cmos_Jumper.jpg aaaaah
25 Jan 2010 05:09:17 < timonator> :)
25 Jan 2010 05:09:33 < mathw> err
25 Jan 2010 05:09:34 < mathw> yes
25 Jan 2010 05:09:38 < mathw> .u'i
25 Jan 2010 05:10:35 -!- Arla [n=Niddler@h111n2c1o253.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:11:31 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
25 Jan 2010 05:11:32 -!- Fraeon_ is now known as Fraeon
25 Jan 2010 05:12:50 < timonator> lindar: what's your opinion on me wearing a minimally tighter than usual black jeans with orange thread-thingies?
25 Jan 2010 05:15:22 < lindar> Orange thread-thingies?
25 Jan 2010 05:15:27 < lindar> If you have a photo, that would help.
25 Jan 2010 05:15:46 < lindar> Also, I don't know what your arse looks like, so I couldn't rightly say. It also depends on what top and other accessories you're wearing.
25 Jan 2010 05:16:17 < lindar> If you can photograph them and your lower half, preferably with them on, I could give you an opinion.
25 Jan 2010 05:16:27 < timonator> "top" :)
25 Jan 2010 05:16:44 < timonator> haha "preferably with them on"? wouldn't have expected that one from you :)))
25 Jan 2010 05:16:57 < mathw> It's the Lojban influence
25 Jan 2010 05:17:08 < lindar> >_> What? I'd need to see how they look on you.
25 Jan 2010 05:17:11 < mathw> Looks to me like lindar is trying to be precise
25 Jan 2010 05:17:33 < lindar> Don't ask a gay man fashion advice unless you're willing to be precise or you have him in person.
25 Jan 2010 05:17:48 < timonator> heh
25 Jan 2010 05:18:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:19:55 < timonator> how do i make a self-full-body-portrait without making it look like one of those emo-selfshots? :D
25 Jan 2010 05:20:44 < mathw> with great difficulty
25 Jan 2010 05:20:59 < timonator> thought so :\
25 Jan 2010 05:23:13 < lindar> I don't need a full body shot.
25 Jan 2010 05:24:14 < lindar> I just need the lower half so I can see how they look on you.
25 Jan 2010 05:26:03 -!- Arla [n=Niddler@h111n2c1o253.bredband.skanova.com] has quit []
25 Jan 2010 05:27:16 -!- feliks [n=xyz@g228008114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:27:54 < feliks> coi
25 Jan 2010 05:29:15 < lindar> coi .feliks.
25 Jan 2010 05:31:45 -!- wippo [n=hejmo@87.118.125.219] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:32:00 < wippo> loĵbanistaro!
25 Jan 2010 05:32:17 < feliks> why does jbofihe hang up on {ni'o pamo'o ni'o}
25 Jan 2010 05:33:41 < lindar> I'm not entirely sure.
25 Jan 2010 05:33:48 < lindar> Saluton Wippo.
25 Jan 2010 05:34:00 < wippo> Saluton
25 Jan 2010 05:34:10 < feliks> is it wrong to state a chapter number and nothing else in a paragraph?
25 Jan 2010 05:34:22 < feliks> saluton :)
25 Jan 2010 05:34:49 < lindar> Yes, it's incorrect being that there's no selbri. =D
25 Jan 2010 05:34:54 < lindar> It's not a proper bridi.
25 Jan 2010 05:35:10 < wippo> lindar: sina sona ala sona e mi?
25 Jan 2010 05:36:22 < lindar> Wippo: Mi ne parolas Esperanton. Pardonu! Parolas Anglon?
25 Jan 2010 05:36:38 < wippo> Ne.
25 Jan 2010 05:36:49 < lindar> Funny, cos I see you here all the time. =P
25 Jan 2010 05:36:58 < wippo> Tio ne estis esperanto. Tio estis tokipono.
25 Jan 2010 05:37:47 < feliks> ĉi estas babilejo por la loĵbana, ne artefaritaj lingvoj ĝenerale
25 Jan 2010 05:38:47 < lindar>  Vi parolas aliajn lingvojn? Parolas francon?
25 Jan 2010 05:39:25 -!- Arla [n=Niddler@h111n2c1o253.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:40:10 < lindar> >_> With the kind of people I know and meet on a regular basis, it might be in my best interest to learn a bit more Eo and to learn Toki Pona.
25 Jan 2010 05:41:23 < wippo> lindar: la rusan.
25 Jan 2010 05:42:34 -!- eturner [n=eturner@75-107-163-114.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:42:53 < lindar> Vi parolas Loĵban?
25 Jan 2010 05:42:58 < feliks> я не говарю по-русский
25 Jan 2010 05:43:10 < timonator> lindar: gotten my query?
25 Jan 2010 05:43:29 < wippo> Ne.
25 Jan 2010 05:44:39 < feliks> wippo ĉu vi havas ian demandon, eble povas helpi traduki
25 Jan 2010 05:44:46 < lindar> .i mutce cizra .i mi birti lo du'u mi pu viska
25 Jan 2010 05:44:59 < wippo> Ne.
25 Jan 2010 05:45:11 < wippo> Mi simple aliris por rigardi al idiotoj.
25 Jan 2010 05:45:19 < feliks> bone
25 Jan 2010 05:45:38 < feliks> restu pace en via truo
25 Jan 2010 05:45:48 < mathw> Are you actually having a conversation in Esperanto and Lojban *at the same time*?
25 Jan 2010 05:45:55 < wippo> ĉu temas pri pug-truo?
25 Jan 2010 05:46:09 < feliks> i asked if he had a question i could help translate
25 Jan 2010 05:46:18 < feliks> he said no, he only joined to watch idiots
25 Jan 2010 05:46:30 < feliks> so let him be
25 Jan 2010 05:46:38 < lindar> Fun. =D
25 Jan 2010 05:46:50 < feliks> some folks got no life :)
25 Jan 2010 05:47:07 < lindar> I love how Esperantists, especially lo softo, are so egotistical about absolutely everything.
25 Jan 2010 05:47:14 < lindar> =D
25 Jan 2010 05:47:30 < mathw> I've run into the amusing conceit some of them have that their language is better than Lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:47:32 < feliks> i can't report about any bad experiences
25 Jan 2010 05:47:54 < lindar> I can report a handful.
25 Jan 2010 05:47:56 < feliks> yeah well, everybody likes what they've grown attached to
25 Jan 2010 05:48:01 < timonator> i agree
25 Jan 2010 05:48:41 < feliks> it's true some eo folks tend to think eo is the be-and-end-all for the language problems of the world
25 Jan 2010 05:48:53 < feliks> and the rest is just playing around
25 Jan 2010 05:49:10 < wippo> kace, mi tiel ne pensas!
25 Jan 2010 05:50:01 < wippo> kiel diri en loĵbano «mi amas vin»?
25 Jan 2010 05:50:15 < feliks> mi prami do
25 Jan 2010 05:51:07 < wippo> tio estas loĵbano?
25 Jan 2010 05:51:09 < mathw> The be-all and end-all would be a language you can understand without having to learn it first
25 Jan 2010 05:51:12 < feliks> sed nun jam ne ĉar ni estas idiotoj Ŭ)
25 Jan 2010 05:51:37 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 05:51:37 < feliks> telepathy?
25 Jan 2010 05:51:41 < wippo> do, kiun vi pramu?
25 Jan 2010 05:51:55  * lindar has the feeling we're being trolled.
25 Jan 2010 05:52:11  * feliks too
25 Jan 2010 05:52:18 < lindar> .i ko na krokodili
25 Jan 2010 05:52:27 < lindar> =D
25 Jan 2010 05:52:42 < Arla> wippo は troll ですよ
25 Jan 2010 05:52:52 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 05:52:55 < Arla> ... sorry
25 Jan 2010 05:53:01 < mathw> wow
25 Jan 2010 05:53:09 < mathw> 'troll' is in the dictionary
25 Jan 2010 05:53:11 < lindar> .i doi .arlas. do slabu xu mi
25 Jan 2010 05:53:20 < mathw> {malzunpre}
25 Jan 2010 05:53:31 < wippo> i don't understand what means that trolling, what is warmely liked by most of internet users at last time.
25 Jan 2010 05:53:39 < feliks> i still don't understand, why is it required that between ni'o..ni'o has to be a valid bridi
25 Jan 2010 05:53:44 -!- kribacr [i=42c07e03@gateway/web/freenode/x-sreywhdeweeiwila] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:53:57 < lindar> feliks, I have no idea, but here's kribacr to answer that question for you.
25 Jan 2010 05:54:07 < lindar> wippo: So you -do- speak English?
25 Jan 2010 05:54:28 < wippo> badly.
25 Jan 2010 05:54:31 < kribacr> coi
25 Jan 2010 05:54:32 -!- ivan [n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
25 Jan 2010 05:54:42 < feliks> coi kribacr
25 Jan 2010 05:54:44 -!- ivan [n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:54:51 < lindar> Fantastic. It's probably better than my Eo.
25 Jan 2010 05:54:56 < kribacr> coi fy.
25 Jan 2010 05:55:00 < wippo> bad-worse-..what?
25 Jan 2010 05:55:02 < mathw> coi la .kribacr.
25 Jan 2010 05:55:15 < kribacr> .i ma preti fo mi
25 Jan 2010 05:55:25 < lindar> X is bad. X is worse. X is the worst.
25 Jan 2010 05:55:28 < kribacr> coi my.
25 Jan 2010 05:55:28 < wippo> mi ne scias viajn lingvojn.
25 Jan 2010 05:55:30 -!- ivan [n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
25 Jan 2010 05:55:37 < feliks> kribacr i was just told you could answer a question i posted 5 mins ago
25 Jan 2010 05:55:43 < kribacr> re'i
25 Jan 2010 05:55:44 < Arla> wippo: Simple dirate, troll-oj paneigas retajn diskutojn per ĝenaj argumentoj
25 Jan 2010 05:56:07 < lindar> Arla, do you know this fine fellow?
25 Jan 2010 05:56:08 < feliks> why does jbofihe hang up on {ni'o pamo'o ni'o}
25 Jan 2010 05:56:22 -!- ivan [n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:56:26 < wippo> Arla: argumento estas parametro de funkcio en programlingvo, ĉu ne nur?
25 Jan 2010 05:56:50 < kribacr> feliks: I'm not sure.
25 Jan 2010 05:56:51 < Arla> wippo: Ne laŭ mia vortaro
25 Jan 2010 05:56:58 < kribacr> I don't know how to use {mo'o}. Check the CLL.
25 Jan 2010 05:56:58 < Arla> lindar: Yes, from #esperanto
25 Jan 2010 05:57:05 < lindar> It seems we have a curse around here that every so often we get some guy in here from Russia that speaks Eo and trolls our channel. Way to make a good impression for your conlang and country, d-bag.
25 Jan 2010 05:57:12 < wippo> Arla: paneigi diskuton, kiel fari tion, mi ne povas imagi.
25 Jan 2010 05:57:12 < Arla> haha
25 Jan 2010 05:57:32 < Arla> wippo: Eble malbona esprimo de mi...
25 Jan 2010 05:58:01 < feliks> i checked, it just attaches to a number and makes it a chapter/section marker
25 Jan 2010 05:58:10 < wippo> Arla: heh. Kiom da reguloj havas lojban?
25 Jan 2010 05:58:12 < feliks> but seems that cannot stand on its own
25 Jan 2010 05:58:20 < kribacr> Do you need {xi}?
25 Jan 2010 05:58:36 < feliks> mom, i try
25 Jan 2010 05:58:39 -!- cmacis [n=james@cpc2-brad7-0-0-cust1137.barn.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 05:58:49 < wippo> {xi}
25 Jan 2010 05:58:50 < cmacis> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 05:59:03 < wippo> kion signifas tiu vorto?
25 Jan 2010 05:59:07 < lindar> Any particular reason he's here other than to immediately judge our language and speaker base as stupid before he learns a single thing about it? Cos the impression I get is that he's already decided Lojban is stupid and he's going to make fun of it. >_>
25 Jan 2010 05:59:34 < wippo> lindar: mi povus diri ruse, sed tiam min ja tute neniu komprenus tie ĉi, mi timas.
25 Jan 2010 06:00:14 < Arla> wippo: Kiom havas esperanto?
25 Jan 2010 06:00:16 < feliks> no
25 Jan 2010 06:00:21 < wippo> Arla: 16
25 Jan 2010 06:00:24 < Arla> haha
25 Jan 2010 06:00:29 < timonator> who?
25 Jan 2010 06:00:42 < lindar> timo: The bloke speaking Eo.
25 Jan 2010 06:00:52 < feliks> seems that only a valid bridi is accepted
25 Jan 2010 06:01:01 < timonator> the one from before? did he leave?
25 Jan 2010 06:01:23 < feliks> i just wondered if that's in the rules or just the parser acts so?
25 Jan 2010 06:01:43 <@Broca> http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/lojb_esp.txt -- start at “How many rules are enough?”
25 Jan 2010 06:01:51 < lindar> I'm so fucking sick of this arrogant attitude that Esperantists have coming in here like they own the fucking conlang world. Oh Lojban, how quaint. You, boy! Speak Lojban so that I may make fun of it for some irrelevant reason!
25 Jan 2010 06:01:54 < mathw> .o'onai mi mutce xebni la .djavas.
25 Jan 2010 06:02:00 < Arla> wippo: Por parolanto de romana lingvo, eble jes oni povus diri tiel. Por parolanta de romana lingvo, en loĵbano nenio estos rekonata.
25 Jan 2010 06:02:32 < timonator> lindar: quickly respond in the query?
25 Jan 2010 06:03:25 < timonator> doi mat mi ji'a bai pilno je xebni la djavar
25 Jan 2010 06:03:34 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 06:04:02 < wippo> Arla: via loĵbano estas malbelega kvazaŭ kiel mia vivo.
25 Jan 2010 06:04:57 < wippo> laŭ terureco ĝin eblas kompari nur kun la nederlanda.
25 Jan 2010 06:06:04 < wippo> tute malbele aspekta lingvo.
25 Jan 2010 06:06:25 < wippo> astetike neakceptebla por mi.
25 Jan 2010 06:07:16 <@Broca> ju'o ru'e la uipon mintu lo pu zu di'i nai bebzunpre
25 Jan 2010 06:07:59 < TheSiah> whats going on? conlang battle?
25 Jan 2010 06:08:07 <@Broca> i ri sezmlugau lo nu ka'e tavla le bangrsuomi po'o
25 Jan 2010 06:08:07 < timonator> haha, batlle?
25 Jan 2010 06:08:17 < feliks> no, just a lone troll
25 Jan 2010 06:08:45 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit ["Leaving."]
25 Jan 2010 06:08:57 < wippo> troll. bona vorto.
25 Jan 2010 06:09:02 < TheSiah> esperanto troll
25 Jan 2010 06:09:05 < lindar> >_< What the hell is with Russian people and Esperantists?
25 Jan 2010 06:09:07 -!- MigoMipo [n=migomipo@84-217-12-113.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 06:09:13 < TheSiah> mi ne scias
25 Jan 2010 06:09:39 < wippo> TheSiah : Se ne scias, do silentu kaj aŭskultu tiun, kiu scias.
25 Jan 2010 06:10:09 < TheSiah> i could sayy that to you i guess
25 Jan 2010 06:11:19 < wippo> fuck you all.
25 Jan 2010 06:11:25 < wippo> :((((
25 Jan 2010 06:11:29 -!- wippo [n=hejmo@87.118.125.219] has left #lojban ["I'm a happy Miranda IM user! Get it here: http://miranda-im.org"]
25 Jan 2010 06:11:30 < mathw> doi timos mi jinvi du'u la djavar se finti lo cortu zanfri prenu .a lo tolmencre
25 Jan 2010 06:11:32 < TheSiah> lol
25 Jan 2010 06:11:41 < lindar> Yeah, way to prove my point.
25 Jan 2010 06:11:45 < TheSiah> what was he doing here?
25 Jan 2010 06:11:47 < feliks> gone at last
25 Jan 2010 06:11:48 < lindar> Trolling.
25 Jan 2010 06:12:00 < lindar> Arla, what the hell is that guy's problem?
25 Jan 2010 06:12:08 < TheSiah> was he trying to show off his half assed esperanto skills?
25 Jan 2010 06:12:09 < feliks> too much time on his hand
25 Jan 2010 06:14:23 < lindar> I know not -all- Eoists and Russians are rude, ignorant, mean-spirited people that can't give you the time of the day, but I don't think I've met but half a handful of each that weren't. -___-
25 Jan 2010 06:14:39 < mathw> I only know one Esperantist and he's really nice
25 Jan 2010 06:14:51 < mathw> There are idiots in most groups, unfortunately
25 Jan 2010 06:15:30 < feliks> i met most esperantists in second life, nice bunch there
25 Jan 2010 06:16:02 <@Broca> There used to be some troll that came in here, months apart, and pretend to only be able to speak one language, that language not being English.
25 Jan 2010 06:16:19 <@Broca> Once it was Finnish, another time it was... Hebrew?
25 Jan 2010 06:16:32 <@Broca> But they were actually only using Google Translate.
25 Jan 2010 06:16:58 < mathw> hmm
25 Jan 2010 06:17:01 < mathw> what a strange pasttime
25 Jan 2010 06:18:21 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.7.143] has quit ["Leaving."]
25 Jan 2010 06:20:42 < feliks> hm, {ni'o to pa mo'o ni'o} works, is that the proper way to put a chapter header?
25 Jan 2010 06:21:21 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.7.143] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 06:22:39 < feliks> but when i add {toi} the parser chokes again
25 Jan 2010 06:23:45 < lindar> Oh yeah, I remember that guy!
25 Jan 2010 06:24:22 < lindar> The weird thing is that I see wippo in the room's nick list all the time.
25 Jan 2010 06:24:33 < lindar> At least a few months I've seen him in here idling.
25 Jan 2010 06:28:18 -!- vensa [i=598b73da@gateway/web/freenode/x-gtcihjzvbxlofgcl] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 06:29:32 -!- urchin [n=urchin@natgw-pr5.math.hr] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 06:30:30 < lindar> -______- I feel like trolling #esperanto and #tokipona just to have some sense of vengeance, but all that would do is harm innocent people who would then dislike my people. (Isn't this how wars get started?)
25 Jan 2010 06:31:06 <@Broca> Forgiveness, my friend.
25 Jan 2010 06:32:05 < lindar> -______-
25 Jan 2010 06:32:14 < lindar> I know!!
25 Jan 2010 06:32:31 < lindar> I'm easily irritated. That's my problem.
25 Jan 2010 06:34:00 < Arla> lindar: Yes, she's an idiot.
25 Jan 2010 06:34:14 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 06:36:26 < lindar> She?
25 Jan 2010 06:36:35 < Arla> lindar: wippo
25 Jan 2010 06:36:43 < lindar> Isn't Alexei a guy's name?
25 Jan 2010 06:37:38 < Arla> Oh. I knew neither that their name is Alexei nor that it's a guy's name.
25 Jan 2010 06:38:24 < lindar> Yesh.
25 Jan 2010 06:38:37 < lindar> I'm sorry if my blathering about Eo offended you. =\
25 Jan 2010 06:38:47 < Arla> Oh, no worries.
25 Jan 2010 06:38:54 < Arla> I'm not as easily offended as you seem to be :)
25 Jan 2010 06:39:14 < lindar> I'm like a white guy trying to be open-minded around the 1960's. (Metaphorically speaking.)
25 Jan 2010 06:39:36 < lindar> I've had a lot of negative stereotypes imprinted on me, and it doesn't help that a large number of Esperantists fill that stereotype.
25 Jan 2010 06:40:01 < lindar> I know there's some rude name you call those "militants". =P
25 Jan 2010 06:44:56  * lindar suddenly sees a pattern.
25 Jan 2010 06:45:14 < mathw> is it a chessboard?
25 Jan 2010 06:45:25 < lindar> First the Jews, then blacks, then gays, and finally Esperantists (again)!
25 Jan 2010 06:45:49 < lindar> Black people got the same treatment a few decades ago that gay people are getting now.
25 Jan 2010 06:46:03 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit ["Leaving."]
25 Jan 2010 06:46:18 < lindar> As soon as gay people are accepted into the mainstream like black people have been, Esperantists and perhaps other conlangers will be the new targets.
25 Jan 2010 06:46:28 < mathw> hah
25 Jan 2010 06:46:33 < mathw> I think we're further down the list than that
25 Jan 2010 06:46:53 < mathw> although you paint a bleak future for gay conlangers
25 Jan 2010 06:47:26 < mathw> no sooner do we get past this current craziness, than we get the same thing happen again on a different subject
25 Jan 2010 06:47:47 < mathw> although I doubt the Bible says anything about constructed languages, so we're probably safe actually
25 Jan 2010 06:47:55 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 06:48:25 < lindar> The only thing I can trust about Christian extremists is that they'll find some way to warp the Bible to have an excuse to hate somebody.
25 Jan 2010 06:48:32 < lindar> Cos, you know, that's what Jesus would want.
25 Jan 2010 06:48:49 < mathw> I doubt they think about it in those terms
25 Jan 2010 06:49:15 <@Broca> ... because if they didn't hate anybody, they wouldn't be extremists?
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25 Jan 2010 06:51:51 < Arla> How do i say he/she/it in Lojban?
25 Jan 2010 06:51:52 < lindar> I can picture it now. "This country was founded on Christian morals!" (This is always the headliner they use... >_>) "The idea of one world language, one world currency, one world government, is a sign of the devil! It says in..." now here I forget where it is, but those are actually signs of the apocalypse (along with things we've had for AGES like everybody being assigned a number (SSN/SIN/etc.), one world currency (the Euro?), on
25 Jan 2010 06:51:52 < lindar> e world government (MURIKUH!!), etc.), "I say to you, Esperanto, that you are the DEVIL's work, and Doctor Zamenhoff was a devil worshipper! A messenger of Satan! And this is the DEVIL's tongue warped to destroy the minds of GOD FEARING Christians!"
25 Jan 2010 06:52:07 < lindar> Arla: You don't. =D Our pronouns are very different as is the whole grammar.
25 Jan 2010 06:52:17 < Arla> lindar: That I knew..
25 Jan 2010 06:52:25 < Arla> Now. How do I do?
25 Jan 2010 06:52:29 < lindar> Namely in the fact that we don't have nouns (unless you're Sonja Kisa, in which case everything is a noun or verb).
25 Jan 2010 06:52:38 < lindar> Ehm... well, there are a bunch of them.
25 Jan 2010 06:52:40 < mathw> lindar: you even have the tone of voice right
25 Jan 2010 06:52:44 < lindar> ko'a, ri, ti, etc.
25 Jan 2010 06:52:57 < lindar> It depends on how you're referring to the person and under what circumstance.
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25 Jan 2010 06:53:37 < lindar>  {ri} "pro-sumti: the last sumti, as determined by back-counting rules.";  {ko'a} "pro-sumti: he/she/it/they #1 (specified by goi).";  {ti} "pro-sumti: this here; immediate demonstrative it; indicated thing/place near speaker."
25 Jan 2010 06:54:06 < lindar> ri/ra/ru, ti/ta/tu, the ko'a series, le go'i... we have a LOT of ways to refer to somebody.
25 Jan 2010 06:54:31 < lindar> Oh, la'edi'u is another one...
25 Jan 2010 06:54:33 < mathw> It's one of the places where I find that Lojban looks very complicated
25 Jan 2010 06:54:49 <@xalbo> I think the first question to ask yourself is, how is this person/thing you want to refer to available in the universe of discourse.
25 Jan 2010 06:55:05 < lindar> It really isn't, it's just that we have something vaguely like he/she/it that doesn't map perfectly to English.
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25 Jan 2010 06:55:35 <@xalbo> mathw: In some ways complicated, but realize how much work you have to do to figure out which of all possible referents of "he" or "she" or "it" is the one intended.
25 Jan 2010 06:55:57 < Arla> I wish there was some wiki page or something discussing pro-sumti.
25 Jan 2010 06:55:58 < feliks> ke'u coi - got booted
25 Jan 2010 06:56:13 < kribacr> I've vowed to use ko'a more when discussing things.
25 Jan 2010 06:56:26 < kribacr> I could teach a lesson on them at lunch time.
25 Jan 2010 06:56:40 < Arla> So. "Specified by goi"? What's goi?
25 Jan 2010 06:57:00 < cmacis> One world language is against Genesis - tower of babel
25 Jan 2010 06:57:03 < cmacis> there
25 Jan 2010 06:57:08 < kribacr> coi la .lindar. goi ko'a .i ko'a nanmu
25 Jan 2010 06:57:13 < kribacr> .i ko'a merko
25 Jan 2010 06:57:28 < kribacr> .i mi tavla ko'a
25 Jan 2010 06:57:34 < lindar> .i .oisai mi na merko
25 Jan 2010 06:57:37 <@xalbo> {goi} lets you bind a pro-sumti, usually a lerfu-string or something in the {ko'V}/{fo'V} series, to a sumti.
25 Jan 2010 06:57:37 < kribacr> .u'i
25 Jan 2010 06:57:51 < lindar> .i mi xabju lo merko gi'e glico
25 Jan 2010 06:57:53 < kribacr> .i la'a do merko doi ko'a
25 Jan 2010 06:58:13 <@xalbo> {.i lo speni be mi be'o goi ky. cu melbi .i ky. gleki}
25 Jan 2010 06:58:42  * lindar lets the experts take over so fo'e can watch Red Dwarf.
25 Jan 2010 06:58:57 < kribacr> .i lo mamta be do be'o goi fo'a .i mi gletu fo'a
25 Jan 2010 06:59:59 < kribacr> co'o fo'e no'u lo zgana be la xunre cmalu
25 Jan 2010 07:00:43 < Arla> Wow, goi with friends seems stupid.
25 Jan 2010 07:01:05 < Arla> Doesn't the use of that require you to plan what you're going to say later?
25 Jan 2010 07:02:36 < lindar> I hate those "FEATURED VIDEO" things on YouTube because then I end up watching some of them. >_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzGRm2qNn_E&feature=dir
25 Jan 2010 07:04:13 < mathw> It certainly requires you to know you're going to want to refer to it again
25 Jan 2010 07:04:58 < clsn> Not really.
25 Jan 2010 07:05:25 < clsn> There are the back-counting pro-sumti, and don't forget the alphabetic variables, which usually will Do the Right Thing.
25 Jan 2010 07:05:39 < mathw> Oh yes, I'm not saying there aren't other methods
25 Jan 2010 07:05:49 < mathw> I find {ri} and friends the most useful, personally
25 Jan 2010 07:07:59 < clsn> see also my wiki posting long ago which I am trying to find...
25 Jan 2010 07:09:11 < clsn> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/lerfu+pro-sumti,+and+why+ko%27a+sucks
25 Jan 2010 07:10:07 <@xalbo> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/lerfu+pro-sumti,+and+why+ko'a+sucks
25 Jan 2010 07:10:14 <@xalbo> Damn, you got there just a little faster.
25 Jan 2010 07:11:11 < Arla> clsn: alphabetic variables, does that mean I can say {.i mi nelci le cifnu .i mi dunda lo ladru cy.} ?
25 Jan 2010 07:11:41 < clsn> Sure you can (I won't tell anyone).  No, really, yes, you can, and it does what you want.,
25 Jan 2010 07:12:08 < Arla> That is kinda nice.
25 Jan 2010 07:13:10 <@xalbo> ISTR seeing the argument that lojban did indeed have gender, it's just that it's a very unusual *lexical* gender (based on what word was used to refer to something), and that we had about 22 (or whatever the number is) of them.
25 Jan 2010 07:13:13 < Arla> Heh, that was probably my first lojbanic sentence since a year ago or so.
25 Jan 2010 07:14:32 < kribacr> I could maybe see the 10 (k/f)o'Vs getting used in a novel maybe, though the author might want to keep reassigning them at somewhat frequent intervals to remind the reader of what they are.
25 Jan 2010 07:14:35 < clsn> Yes, I've seen (and occasionally repeated) that view once or twice.  "Gender" in the sense of dividing up nouns into some number of classes treated differently by the grammar.
25 Jan 2010 07:14:51 < lindar> Huh, I never really considered how fail ko'a are. I think their only advantage is that they're more noise-proof.
25 Jan 2010 07:15:08 < clsn> kribacr: Yeah, but can you see someone using all ten [kf]o'Vs, and a reader *keeping track of them*?
25 Jan 2010 07:15:24 < mathw> clsn: forget the reader, the *author* has to keep track of them first
25 Jan 2010 07:15:42 < clsn> The author has more invested in the work, maybe he'd expend the extra effort. :)
25 Jan 2010 07:15:50 < mathw> I speculate that Lojban novelists might be more careful than most to choose primary characters with different initials :)
25 Jan 2010 07:16:13 < lindar> I can't see an author actually doing that.
25 Jan 2010 07:16:28 < clsn> It's actually annoying enough when you wind up with main characters with similar names in real stories.  I think I've noticed that occasionally.
25 Jan 2010 07:16:36 < mathw> clsn: I try to avoid it when I write
25 Jan 2010 07:16:56 < kribacr> I don't think it's that outlandish. We're introduced to many characters in books who have short names, or nick names. How are KOhA different?
25 Jan 2010 07:17:10 < clsn> Nicknames and short names are mnemonic.
25 Jan 2010 07:17:10 < mathw> I recently became very irritated (again) with Robert Jordan's introduction at almost the same time two similar characters called Seaine and Saerin in the Wheel of Time books
25 Jan 2010 07:17:16 < mathw> I can *never* tell them apart
25 Jan 2010 07:17:42 < clsn> (there are two people I see sometimes on #swhack, spb and sbp.  I refuse to acknowledge that they are distinct people.)
25 Jan 2010 07:18:44 < clsn> ko'[aei] is like having characters called Ron, Rob, Roy, and Rod, only worse.
25 Jan 2010 07:19:27 <@xalbo> Rob, Rod, Rop, and Roq
25 Jan 2010 07:19:28 <@xalbo> :)
25 Jan 2010 07:19:36 < clsn> heh.
25 Jan 2010 07:20:35 <@xalbo> It's like my old days grading CS101 students, who seemed to love naming integer variables O, I, and l, and then using them interchangeably with 0 and 1.
25 Jan 2010 07:20:50 <@xalbo> Then printing out in the worst sans serif font they could find.
25 Jan 2010 07:20:51 < clsn> For some reason I'm finding myself thinking about "Harry" vs "Hagrid" in the HP series, but those aren't that seriously bad.  I recall tho in reading the first book in Hebrew, that "Harry" and "the mirror" (i.e. of Erised) in Hebrew are very similar:
25 Jan 2010 07:21:05 < clsn> They're הארי vs הראי
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25 Jan 2010 07:22:02 < mathw> I don't think authors can be held responsible for what their books look like in languages they don't even speak...
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25 Jan 2010 07:22:49 < mathw> Can you imagine the editor sending back your sixtieth draft, complaining that two of your characters will be nigh-on indistinguishable if the book's ever translated into Russian?
25 Jan 2010 07:23:43 < clsn> Oh of course not
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25 Jan 2010 07:23:54 < clsn> Just something I noticed, not anyone's *fault*.
25 Jan 2010 07:24:01 < mathw> nah I'm just bored
25 Jan 2010 07:24:20 < clsn> And especially since in Hebrew without vowels half the words look so much like the other half to begin with.
25 Jan 2010 07:24:22 < mathw> I can't really comment on KOhA usage in practice because I think I've only done it once
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25 Jan 2010 07:28:33 < lindar> I don't think -anybody- really uses them, or if they do, it's not that often.
25 Jan 2010 07:28:38 < kribacr> I can't disagree that the similarity amongst the freefloating KOhA can be and probably is a problem. Perhaps if they had instead designed them in a sort of parallel series where both the vowel and consonant change in sequence... like {ko'a} {lo'e} {mo'i} {no'o} {po'u} or something.
25 Jan 2010 07:29:56 < mathw> It may be that they're easy to deal with once you've had enough experience, because you train yourself to recognise at a glance that {ko'a} is not the same as {ko'e}
25 Jan 2010 07:30:42 < kribacr> I would argue that the system may be a bit less broken than it seems at first glance. I'd feel inclined not to assign them in order.
25 Jan 2010 07:31:20 < mathw> But I think that you definitely, as an author, wouldn't want to leave it too long between assignments - even reassignments to the same name - of your KOhA, lest the readers become confused. In much the same way that if you're reporting a lot of direct speech between two people in English you should remember to put in some 'said $person1' from time to time so people don't lose track of who said what.
25 Jan 2010 07:31:38 < mathw> It may just be a matter of familiarity and taking some appropriate care
25 Jan 2010 07:32:51 < mathw> I shall have to make a conscious effort to use them in something and see what happens
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25 Jan 2010 07:34:59 < mathw> different subject, I was just very surprised by this
25 Jan 2010 07:35:00 < mathw> 15:34 <mathw> ?q May
25 Jan 2010 07:35:01 < mathw> 15:34 <makfa> lujvo {bakma'i} from tanru {bakni masti} glossing to "May" in the sense of "month"   x1 is May of year x2 in calendar x3.   Notes: Cf. {mumymasti}, {kanbyma'i}, {nanca}.
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25 Jan 2010 07:37:03 < mathw> bovine month?
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25 Jan 2010 07:37:36 < lindar> wtf?
25 Jan 2010 07:37:44 < mathw> mmm
25 Jan 2010 07:37:56 < mathw> since I thought months were things like {mumasti}
25 Jan 2010 07:38:29 < mathw> this is what comes from thinking about song translations when most of your repertoire starts with something like "As I went out one May morning"
25 Jan 2010 07:38:49 < mathw> and you realise you have no idea how to say that something happened on an unspecified morning in May of some unspecified year
25 Jan 2010 07:38:49 < lindar> I can hardly believe that's official.
25 Jan 2010 07:39:44 < lindar> We name weekdays as {pavdei},{reldei},etc.
25 Jan 2010 07:40:03 < lindar> wtf?
25 Jan 2010 07:40:07 < lindar> How broken is this nonsense?
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25 Jan 2010 07:41:25 < lindar> fu'ivla {ianvari} glossing to "January"   x1 is January in year x2 on calendar x3 |  {relmasti} from tanru {re masti} glossing to "Iyar"   x1 is February/the second month of year x2 in calendar x3.   Notes: Cf. {pavmasti}, {nanca}. |  {fipma'i} from tanru {finpe masti} glossing to "March" in the sense of "month"   x1 is March of year x2 in calendar x3.   Notes: Cf. {cibmasti}, {kanbyma'i}, {nanca}.
25 Jan 2010 07:41:41 < lindar> Why do we not have a cohesive and regular naming pattern for the months?
25 Jan 2010 07:42:30 < lindar> I think it would be fantastic to name days of the week and months of the year by interesting names instead of Firstday, Secondday, Firstmonth, Secondmonth, but we at least need to be consistent in the naming patterns.
25 Jan 2010 07:42:42 < lindar> kribacr, do you have any idea what this is about?
25 Jan 2010 07:43:43 < kribacr> I don't really know, no. I hate lujvo. Or rather, I hate our current lists.
25 Jan 2010 07:44:15 < Arla> Those animals. finpe and bakni. They must be from the zodiac, right?
25 Jan 2010 07:45:06 < kribacr> Possibly.
25 Jan 2010 07:45:07 < lindar> Yeah, that's why I'm doing all these stupid translation projects.
25 Jan 2010 07:45:08 < kribacr> Taurus?
25 Jan 2010 07:45:33 < lindar> It's to rip apart jbovlaste and root out all the shitty lujvo in favour of cohesive and consistent ones that actually make sense.
25 Jan 2010 07:45:34 < kribacr> The Zodiac doesn't line up with months though...
25 Jan 2010 07:46:07 < lindar> Doing a translation points out all the words we don't know, so it's a slightly more productive and interesting way to dig through the dictionary and toss out the crappy words.
25 Jan 2010 07:46:41 < lindar> Personally I wouldn't mind one bit spending an entire week going through every lujvo entry in jbovlaste and cleaning house.
25 Jan 2010 07:47:06 < lindar> I -HATE- how many stupid entries are in there and how bad the system itself is.
25 Jan 2010 07:48:17 <@xalbo> I think there have been several proposed month systems.  There is the zodiac one, and I'd forgotten the fu'ivla version.
25 Jan 2010 07:48:25 < lindar> For example, any form of a lujvo should bring up results for any other of its forms, to the same exact entry. For example, {zasterci'a} should bring up the same page as {zasterciska}.
25 Jan 2010 07:48:29 <@xalbo> The numeric one seems by far the most common.
25 Jan 2010 07:48:52 < lindar> I think it would be a very interesting Lojbanic culturalism to have named months instead of numbered ones.
25 Jan 2010 07:49:12 < lindar> We could have a tradition of doing something related to the 'theme' of the month on the first day of each one.
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25 Jan 2010 07:50:49 < mathw> That imposes culture though, which is the wrong way round
25 Jan 2010 07:52:44 < lindar> Is having a unique Lojban culture really against the goals of Lojban?
25 Jan 2010 07:52:55 < lindar> Having Lojbanic music? Lojbanic art?
25 Jan 2010 07:53:39 < feliks> i also think the numbered approach is best, i have the impression that IS lojban culture
25 Jan 2010 07:54:06 < lindar> Yeah, but it's BORING.
25 Jan 2010 07:54:10 < feliks> only would be great to make that series complete with 10-12 digit short names
25 Jan 2010 07:54:21 < feliks> that's subjective
25 Jan 2010 07:54:29 < kribacr> I vote we come up with a modern time counting system. :)
25 Jan 2010 07:54:42 < lindar> Modern?
25 Jan 2010 07:54:46 < feliks> we could use our own calendar to make things more interesting though. ever heard of the Enoch calendar?
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25 Jan 2010 07:55:01 < lindar> We already use 24h time in Lojbanistan.
25 Jan 2010 07:55:09 < lindar> What is the Enoch calendar? >_>
25 Jan 2010 07:55:12 < feliks> we use 24h time in europe
25 Jan 2010 07:55:31 < feliks> from the book enoch, one of the apocryphs that didn't get into the bible
25 Jan 2010 07:55:36 < mathw> lindar: I'm not saying we shouldn't have Lojbanic culture, but usuall language reflects culture rather than imposing it
25 Jan 2010 07:55:40 < kribacr> How about a non-religious secular system. We can start with the "Age of Lojban", year 1 being the founding of the language.
25 Jan 2010 07:55:53 < feliks> it describes a calendar system much easier than our current one
25 Jan 2010 07:56:03 < mathw> use UNIX timestamps
25 Jan 2010 07:56:09 < lindar> kribacr: I've already seen reference to that system on Lojban.org somewhere.
25 Jan 2010 07:56:15 < mathw> they're completely impractical
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25 Jan 2010 07:57:30 < feliks> http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2001/enoch_cal.html#3
25 Jan 2010 07:58:02 < clsn> I used to be on the CALENDR-L mailing list once upon a time.  All kinds of clever (and stupid) calendar proposals there.
25 Jan 2010 07:58:04 < feliks> i'm not fond of religious stuff in general, just think the system is ingeniously simple and puzzled it got never widely adopted
25 Jan 2010 07:58:43 < lindar> Personally I think the year should start in SPRING when the year actually starts.
25 Jan 2010 07:59:04 < mathw> Does that mean it should be different in the southern hemisphere?
25 Jan 2010 07:59:13 < clsn> lindar: yeah, that's what all those godless heathen thought.  that's why we call 'em April Fools.
25 Jan 2010 07:59:15 < feliks> some say it should start with winter solstice, that would be analogous to midnight when the day starts counting
25 Jan 2010 07:59:36 < mathw> feliks: northern or southern hemisphere's winter solstice?
25 Jan 2010 07:59:45 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 07:59:46 <@xalbo> starting the day at midnight is stupid anyway.
25 Jan 2010 07:59:47 < clsn> It *does* start with the winter solstice, or should, but got off-track and fixed there I think.
25 Jan 2010 07:59:57 < mathw> yeah it's only 10ish days off
25 Jan 2010 07:59:59 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 07:59:59 < feliks> northern covers 90% of the population
25 Jan 2010 08:00:01 < clsn> Astronomers start the day at noon.
25 Jan 2010 08:00:16 < clsn> noon UTC of course.
25 Jan 2010 08:00:24 < feliks> just like lojban's input languages cover the biggest, but not all parts of the world
25 Jan 2010 08:00:24 < mathw> of course
25 Jan 2010 08:00:36 < mathw> sometimes you have to pick a reference point and just stick to it
25 Jan 2010 08:00:41 < mathw> because there isn't a particularly good choice
25 Jan 2010 08:00:42 < feliks> you're never quite culturally /neutral/ in that sense
25 Jan 2010 08:00:54 < mathw> so here's an idea
25 Jan 2010 08:00:54 < clsn> (I've done many months of calendar obsessing, believe me, I know whereof I speak). :)  See my calendar conversion page, which hasn't seen an update in umpteen years.
25 Jan 2010 08:00:59 < mathw> first we straighten the axial tilt of the Earth
25 Jan 2010 08:01:12 < lindar> I just don't understand why the year starts in the -middle- of winter.
25 Jan 2010 08:01:17 < mathw> and then we can base our year on somewhere in the apehelion/perehelion cycle
25 Jan 2010 08:01:25 < clsn> mathw: that's kinda what Scaliger did in defining Julian Days.  Just pick a starting point, even if it makes no sense.
25 Jan 2010 08:01:43 < mathw> clsn: ultimately it doesn't matter, once the system's established
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25 Jan 2010 08:02:14 < feliks> lindar: same reason why day starts at midnight - you don't want to cross the dateline midday
25 Jan 2010 08:02:29 < clsn> The same might be said now, then: we already *have* a standard in place, or at least a starting point.  So what if it doesn't make sense.
25 Jan 2010 08:02:37 < mathw> the calendar that tells us it's 2010 is based on some event that probably didn't happen and seems quite commonly to be believed to have happend at a different point in time anyway, but that doesn't make it less useful at this stage
25 Jan 2010 08:02:56 < clsn> feliks: that doesn't work.  Not crossing in midday is because most people are active midday and not at midnight.  But everyone's reasonably active all through the year.
25 Jan 2010 08:03:15 < feliks> the viewpoint is always subjective
25 Jan 2010 08:03:16 < mathw> clsn: but that's a modern thing
25 Jan 2010 08:03:28 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 08:03:28 < mathw> with the advent of good artificial lighting and heating
25 Jan 2010 08:03:35 < mathw> good and affordable
25 Jan 2010 08:03:46 < mathw> except on the equator, anyway
25 Jan 2010 08:03:49 < lindar> Yeah, except that day starts at a variable time based on season, seasons start the same time every year.
25 Jan 2010 08:03:49 < vensa> you guys are neglecting the future generations of Lojban users, who won't even LIVE on the earth :P
25 Jan 2010 08:04:03 < mathw> well they can come up with an appropriate calendar for wherever they land
25 Jan 2010 08:04:13 < mathw> we can't design for that yet because we don't know where they'll be living
25 Jan 2010 08:04:18 < lindar> Indeed.
25 Jan 2010 08:04:26 < mathw> sure if they're going to live on Mars we could speculate about it
25 Jan 2010 08:04:28 < clsn> Scaliger based his Day 1 on Julian New Year (which turned out to be off), new moon cycles, day-of-week cycles, and indiction year(!), which was a totally artificial invention of Emperor Diocletian.  So what if Day 1 was millennia before Diocletian was born?
25 Jan 2010 08:04:40 < mathw> oooh
25 Jan 2010 08:04:42 < mathw> home time
25 Jan 2010 08:04:50 < mathw> I'm off all evening, co'o
25 Jan 2010 08:05:04 < lindar> co'o
25 Jan 2010 08:07:03 <@xalbo> Clearly we just need a single number, Plank times since the Big Bang (adjusted for relativistic effects, of course).
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25 Jan 2010 08:07:36 < vensa> I don't see how defining a global time system has anything to do with Lojban
25 Jan 2010 08:07:44 < vensa> it's a "problem" of it's own
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25 Jan 2010 08:08:49 < vensa> I think, that in the same way that the lojban gismu were selected to fit with the most widely spoken languages - in the same way, the days of the week\months\ years have been numbered in the way that "most" of the earth's population is used to
25 Jan 2010 08:09:08 < vensa> do you think it's easy for me to refer to Monday as the "first" day?
25 Jan 2010 08:11:00 < lindar> I don't know. Is it?
25 Jan 2010 08:11:29 < vensa> yeah... because Sunday is the first day of the week (here)
25 Jan 2010 08:11:35 < vensa> nevertheless, I don't complain :)
25 Jan 2010 08:12:03 < vensa> {yeah=>no}
25 Jan 2010 08:12:31 < vensa> u'ise'i
25 Jan 2010 08:13:14 < lindar> vensa, where are you from again?
25 Jan 2010 08:13:21 < vensa> Israel
25 Jan 2010 08:13:44 < lindar> When is the first day of work for 99% of the respectable working world in Israel?
25 Jan 2010 08:13:52 <@xalbo> the compromise we've settled on seems to work decently; Monday is 1, and Sunday is either 0 or 7, depending on whether you want it first or last.
25 Jan 2010 08:14:26 < vensa> lindar: I know. that's why I've gotten used to living with it
25 Jan 2010 08:14:35 < lindar> Oooooh, that's an interesting compromise.
25 Jan 2010 08:14:38 < vensa> xalbo: day zero sounds even wierder
25 Jan 2010 08:15:02 < vensa> the funny part is
25 Jan 2010 08:15:14 < lindar> >_> Yeah, somebody needs to fix jbovlaste. It says {soldei} is the lujvo for Sunday.
25 Jan 2010 08:15:23 < vensa> that in hebrew, they're actually called: "first-day" (sunday), "second-day" (monday), etc. :)
25 Jan 2010 08:15:41 < lindar> Why aren't these things uniformly entered into jbovlaste?
25 Jan 2010 08:15:45 < lindar> Why are there rogue entries even permitted?
25 Jan 2010 08:15:53 < kribacr> Manpower.
25 Jan 2010 08:16:03 < kribacr> Hey, at least we've got some Pokemon defined.
25 Jan 2010 08:16:31 < lindar> How is it that something like {soldei} can find its way into jbovlaste but if I so much as BARELY misshape a new entry I suddenly have ARJ knocking on my front door holding a shotgun asking -ever- so politely that I fix it right then and there?
25 Jan 2010 08:16:35 < vensa> lindar, I got "zeldaei" from makfa as a gloss for sunday
25 Jan 2010 08:16:53 < lindar> -_________-
25 Jan 2010 08:16:56 < vensa>  <makfa> lujvo {zeldei} from tanru {ze djedi} glossing to "sunday"   x1 is a Sunday of week x2 in calendar x3.   Notes: Sunday is either day seven or day zero, depending on your perspective.
25 Jan 2010 08:17:00 <@Broca> Oh, “soldei” isn't that bad.
25 Jan 2010 08:17:20 < lindar> Yeah, but it's not the correct naming convention.
25 Jan 2010 08:17:22 <@Broca> But it shouldn't be the highest-scoring choice for “Sunday”.
25 Jan 2010 08:17:25 < vensa> "sun"-day... that's stupid
25 Jan 2010 08:17:44 < vensa> so, what's "mon"-day? money day?
25 Jan 2010 08:17:54 < lindar> Moon.
25 Jan 2010 08:17:55 <@Broca> Moon day
25 Jan 2010 08:17:59 < vensa> oh right
25 Jan 2010 08:18:01 < vensa> tuesday?
25 Jan 2010 08:18:07 <@Broca> Some Norse god.
25 Jan 2010 08:18:11 < vensa> oh
25 Jan 2010 08:18:12 < feliks> tyr
25 Jan 2010 08:18:29 < vensa> so, it should be "sol-cevni-day"
25 Jan 2010 08:18:54 < vensa> jk
25 Jan 2010 08:19:30 < clsn> In Welsh, they're Dydd Sul, Dydd Llun, Dydd Mawrth, Dydd Mercher, Dydd Iau, Dydd Gwener, and Dydd Sadwrn.
25 Jan 2010 08:19:56 < vensa>  <makfa> lujvo {lurdei} from tanru {lunra djedi} glossing to "Monday"   x1 is Monday of week x2 on calendar x3.
25 Jan 2010 08:19:58 < clsn> Sun-day Moon-day, Mars-day, Mercury-day, Jupiter-day, Venus-day, Saturn-day.
25 Jan 2010 08:20:00 < lindar> Sun day, moon day, Tyr's day, Wodan's (Odin's) day, Thor's day, Venus/Fredag/Frige's day, Saturn Day
25 Jan 2010 08:20:01 < vensa> it actually exists!
25 Jan 2010 08:20:23 < lindar> Oh yes, if we're doing French then it's the same.
25 Jan 2010 08:20:25 < clsn> That's why I've been spelling the day after Wednesday as Þursday for some time now.
25 Jan 2010 08:20:37 < clsn> Welsh is the only one where it's ALL planet-names I think.
25 Jan 2010 08:20:53 -!- cmacis [n=james@cpc2-brad7-0-0-cust1137.barn.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
25 Jan 2010 08:20:55 < clsn> Hebrew, as vensa said, is "first day" "second day"... etc except for "Sabbath".
25 Jan 2010 08:21:02 < vensa> hebrew is the only one where it's all reasonable "ordered" names
25 Jan 2010 08:21:17 < vensa> yep, except sabbath :)
25 Jan 2010 08:21:18 < clsn> Or in writing you might see "Day A" "Day B" "Day C" (letters are used as numbers a lot anyway)
25 Jan 2010 08:21:22 < lindar> Is there a procedure to remove rogue jbovlaste entries? Cos I'll start removing them if I have permission to do so.
25 Jan 2010 08:21:43 < clsn> אני מדבר עברית, אל תשכח. :)
25 Jan 2010 08:21:56 < vensa> אני זוכר :)
25 Jan 2010 08:22:09 -!- cmacis [n=james@cpc2-brad7-0-0-cust1137.barn.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 08:22:33 < vensa> אפשר לדבר על לינדר מאחורי הגב :P
25 Jan 2010 08:22:45 <@xalbo> Downvote, and edit to add to the comments "see also {nondei}, {zeldei} for a more reasonable system"
25 Jan 2010 08:23:15 <@xalbo> Hebrew emoticons are done RTL too?  Wow.
25 Jan 2010 08:23:16 < vensa> coi cmacis
25 Jan 2010 08:23:24 < clsn> (It's been pointed out—by me—that lacking context, יום ה׳ could be either "The Day of the Lord" or "Þursday")
25 Jan 2010 08:23:29 < cmacis> coi vensa
25 Jan 2010 08:23:30 < cmacis> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 08:23:39 < clsn> Well, parens automatically mirror in the bidi algorithm ysee.
25 Jan 2010 08:23:44 < vensa> xalbo: the emoticons are just "borrowed" from english. as fu'ivula
25 Jan 2010 08:24:02 < vensa> ma nuzba
25 Jan 2010 08:24:02 <@xalbo> ꟼ:
25 Jan 2010 08:24:26 < lindar> -_-
25 Jan 2010 08:24:47 < clsn> Ooh.  Maybe I should grab some of those epigraphic letters for my compose file...
25 Jan 2010 08:24:47 < lindar> I personally feel that {soldei} and other such words are VERY culturally biased.
25 Jan 2010 08:24:48 < vensa> I wouldn't be able to write a RTL :P becuz there's no backward P
25 Jan 2010 08:25:25 <@xalbo> Unicode doesn't seem to have a reversed thorn.  That's too bad.
25 Jan 2010 08:25:32 < lindar> ...and I can't figure out why "soldei" is the -preferred- entry in jbovlaste.
25 Jan 2010 08:25:37 < clsn> :﴿
25 Jan 2010 08:26:12 <@Broca> I googled for “backward P”
25 Jan 2010 08:26:19 <@Broca> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080902165040AARPb4T -- this is what I found :-D
25 Jan 2010 08:26:44 < vensa> q:
25 Jan 2010 08:26:53 < vensa> good enough :P
25 Jan 2010 08:26:55 < clsn> Sigh.
25 Jan 2010 08:27:07 -!- muiro [n=muiro@unaffiliated/muiro] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 08:27:13 < Arla> .u'i
25 Jan 2010 08:27:15 <@Broca> lindar: soldei has two votes, zeldei one, nondei none
25 Jan 2010 08:27:18 < clsn> ꟻꟼꟽꟾꟿ look too useful not to have some access to, ayep.
25 Jan 2010 08:27:28 <@Broca> Now zeldei has two votes.
25 Jan 2010 08:27:40 <@xalbo> and nondei has 4.
25 Jan 2010 08:27:42 < vensa> now, how do I do a backwards m?
25 Jan 2010 08:27:46 < kribacr> Я
25 Jan 2010 08:27:52 < vensa> wow
25 Jan 2010 08:28:03 <@Broca> xalbo: no.
25 Jan 2010 08:28:09 < vensa> xalbo : no
25 Jan 2010 08:28:11 < vensa> not nondei
25 Jan 2010 08:28:35 <@Broca> xalbo: maybe the Jbovlaste interface should display who voted what :-D
25 Jan 2010 08:28:51 < vensa> maybe there should be a "weighted" vote
25 Jan 2010 08:29:08 < lindar> Fantastic. Now can we delete {soldei} as it's horribly malgli?
25 Jan 2010 08:29:10 <@Broca> We wanted to do a “weighted” vote from the beginning, but it was never implemented.
25 Jan 2010 08:29:21 < vensa> bummer
25 Jan 2010 08:29:30 <@Broca> lindar: Sunday as the day of the Sun is cross-cultural.
25 Jan 2010 08:30:13 < kribacr> malnaljbo then. :P
25 Jan 2010 08:30:44 < neptunepink> Even in Asia, is it/
25 Jan 2010 08:31:02 < vensa> question is: r u allowed to have two lujvo with the exact same def?
25 Jan 2010 08:31:12 < lindar> Regardless, we need to have a cohesive weekday naming system that is consistent in its naming structure. I acknowledge that in -many- countries "Sunday" is literally translated as "Sun day", but not every country has the Roman naming system. Japan, for example, has Sunday, Moonday, Woodday, Waterday, Fireday, Dirtday, Goldday (I can't remember them in order, sadly).. It's not culturally neutral, and we need to have a consistent nami
25 Jan 2010 08:31:12 < lindar> ng scheme.
25 Jan 2010 08:31:51 < vensa> numbers are the least culturally biased
25 Jan 2010 08:31:54 < kribacr> Starting to sound like Mega Man bosses.
25 Jan 2010 08:32:04 < lindar> vensa: lujvo are supposed to be the same regardless of how they're formed. {zasterci'a} is the same as {zasterciska}. It's the same word, same meaning, same definition.
25 Jan 2010 08:32:11 < kribacr> In fact, I think we should name the 7 days after the 6 bosses from Mega Man 1 and then Mega Man himself.
25 Jan 2010 08:32:30 < vensa> lindar: but's thats composed of the same gismu
25 Jan 2010 08:32:36 <@xalbo> Honestly, I'm not completely convinced that I like -dei and -ma'i as rafsi.
25 Jan 2010 08:33:04 <@xalbo> or, as parts of weekday and month names, that is.
25 Jan 2010 08:33:11 < lindar> xalbo: Then you can say pavdjedi.
25 Jan 2010 08:33:11 < vensa> should it just be: "zeldjed"?
25 Jan 2010 08:33:15 <@Broca> xalbo: you want detri?
25 Jan 2010 08:33:16 < vensa> after all: it's a name: la
25 Jan 2010 08:33:53 <@xalbo> Right, "Sunday" is a detri (or a se detri), not really a djedi
25 Jan 2010 08:34:02 <@xalbo> well, it *is* a djedi be li pa, but ...
25 Jan 2010 08:34:34 <@xalbo> And I hate {zeldjed} even more.  Same exact problem, but less meaning.  cmevla aren't the answer.
25 Jan 2010 08:35:07 <@xalbo> I just don't see how the place structure of {zeldei} derives at all.
25 Jan 2010 08:35:56 < lindar> It's the seventh day...
25 Jan 2010 08:36:00 < vensa> detri is a date, defaulting to year. how's that better?
25 Jan 2010 08:36:22 < lindar> Either way, whatever, we need a cohesive and consistent naming convention for the days of the week and months of the year.
25 Jan 2010 08:37:28 < vensa> I think, as cmevla it would be perfectly reasonable to have "zeldjed" along with "soldjed"
25 Jan 2010 08:39:15 <@xalbo> {detri} is a numbering/naming/addressing scheme for referencing a particular day.  {djedi} is about the length of a time interval, measured in multiples of 24 hours.  "Sunday" feels more like a form of the former than the latter to me, although it's not a great match for either.
25 Jan 2010 08:39:28 < lindar> I think it's perfectly malnatlang to call it sunday at all.
25 Jan 2010 08:39:44 < lindar> ESPECIALLY since none of the places from solri are actually used.
25 Jan 2010 08:39:54 < vensa> yeah
25 Jan 2010 08:40:15 < lindar> WHERE in soldei are ANY of these places? x1 is the sun of home planet x2 (default Earth) of race x3
25 Jan 2010 08:40:25 <@xalbo> And turning a bad lujvo into a cmevla doesn't make anything any better.
25 Jan 2010 08:40:26 < vensa> if you want solday, call it: "le djedi pe le solri"
25 Jan 2010 08:41:15 < vensa> a cmevla is a name that doesn't necessary have a well-constructed meaning...
25 Jan 2010 08:41:20 < vensa> like "the funky chicken"
25 Jan 2010 08:43:25 < clsn> chicken x1 of breed x2 is funky by standard x3...
25 Jan 2010 08:43:35 < vensa> u'i
25 Jan 2010 08:44:55 < vensa> doi la'oi clsn xu do djica lenu casnu da poi zmadu cinri
25 Jan 2010 08:45:02 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 08:45:09 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 08:45:14 < lindar> vensa, you made the mistake again.
25 Jan 2010 08:45:21 < lindar> xu points to the word before it.
25 Jan 2010 08:45:23 < vensa> sa xu doi la'oi clsn do djica lenu casnu da poi zmadu cinri
25 Jan 2010 08:45:29 < lindar> <3
25 Jan 2010 08:45:32 < clsn> clsn *is* a cmevla, that's why I use it. :)
25 Jan 2010 08:45:33 < vensa> yeah. I noticed after I pressed enter
25 Jan 2010 08:45:48 < clsn> pau do djica tavla ma
25 Jan 2010 08:45:52  * lindar couldn't count on two hands in base 2 how many people make that mistake.
25 Jan 2010 08:45:57 < vensa> how is that a cmevla? no vowels
25 Jan 2010 08:46:13 < clsn> Vocalic l and n.  :)
25 Jan 2010 08:46:20 < vensa> huh??
25 Jan 2010 08:46:36 <@xalbo> Where we're going we don't need vowels.
25 Jan 2010 08:46:39 < clsn> Read CLL page <mumble mumble>
25 Jan 2010 08:47:13 < kribacr> cmevla don't need vowels
25 Jan 2010 08:47:15 < clsn> I actually used to spell it culsn, but everyone liked the vowelless version better. :)
25 Jan 2010 08:47:22 < vensa> cool. I never thought about the fact that the only restriction on cmevla is that they end in a consonant. but theres no restriction on having any vowels
25 Jan 2010 08:47:39 < clsn> So long as you don't have illegal medials!
25 Jan 2010 08:47:39 <@xalbo> .i mi'e .r.
25 Jan 2010 08:47:40 <@Broca> tsktsk
25 Jan 2010 08:47:44 < kribacr> My friend's last name lojbanizes as {strdjn}
25 Jan 2010 08:47:50 < vensa> of course, you do have to satisfy each valid consonant pair
25 Jan 2010 08:48:44 < clsn> In old Loglan, as I understand it, bare cmevla were vocatives.  The hesitation noise (Lojban .y.) was facetiously explained as being an invocation to R, the god of hesitation.
25 Jan 2010 08:49:31 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 08:49:34 < vensa> mi djica lenu tavla fi zo'e la lojban
25 Jan 2010 08:49:45 < lindar> Cos instead of .yyyyyyyyyy you would .rrrrrrr. like in British English.
25 Jan 2010 08:49:59 < lindar> However, I like to .emmmmmm as well.
25 Jan 2010 08:50:40 < feliks> what is the rationale behind forbidding specific pairs, mz, xk, cx, etc.?
25 Jan 2010 08:50:52 < vensa> doi clsn go'i
25 Jan 2010 08:50:56 <@xalbo> In a similar vain, I've introduced {.fykn.}, the God of Frustration or Annoyance.
25 Jan 2010 08:51:01 < kribacr> LOL
25 Jan 2010 08:51:04 < kribacr> .i'e
25 Jan 2010 08:51:16 < kribacr> Now -that's- a god I can believe in!
25 Jan 2010 08:51:48 < kribacr> feliks: No idea about {mz}, but you try pronouncing {xk} or {cx} clearly and then come back to me.
25 Jan 2010 08:51:50 <@xalbo> .i le doi .fykn. mlatu cu vikmu do'e lo mi cutci
25 Jan 2010 08:52:04 < clsn> Eh.  {cx} is quite easy, actually.
25 Jan 2010 08:52:05 <@xalbo> vikmi
25 Jan 2010 08:52:17 < clsn> And xk even, as a medial.
25 Jan 2010 08:52:23 < clsn> Both are not uncommon in Hebrew.
25 Jan 2010 08:52:26 < vensa> can go'i point back to the last sentence that I have said? or does it point back only to the last sentence by someone else?
25 Jan 2010 08:52:29 < feliks> kribacr, that's easy and theres names like that - e.g. ashgabat /acxabat/, /oxka/ etc
25 Jan 2010 08:52:37 < feliks> quite pronouncable
25 Jan 2010 08:52:39 < lindar> vensa: The former.
25 Jan 2010 08:52:55 <@xalbo> {go'i} is the last bridi *anyone* said.
25 Jan 2010 08:52:56 < kribacr> Well... somehwat hard for me. It was a guess. No idea then.
25 Jan 2010 08:52:58 < vensa> why would I want to go'i my own sentence?
25 Jan 2010 08:52:59 < feliks> at least easier than some valid lojban word i encountered. of course that depends on one's background
25 Jan 2010 08:53:25 < clsn> of course.  Some people have trouble with x in the first place.  or with r for that matter.  or p.
25 Jan 2010 08:53:26 < lindar> vensa: For various reasons which you'll discover if you ever bother to speak in Lojban. =P
25 Jan 2010 08:53:40 <@xalbo> .i mi citka .i go'i lo jipci rectu .i lo se go'i mi kukte
25 Jan 2010 08:53:44 < vensa> hmmm, I guess for "le go'i" reasons...
25 Jan 2010 08:53:44 < clsn> lindar: vensa is trying to, I think.
25 Jan 2010 08:54:02 < vensa> xalbo: thanks
25 Jan 2010 08:54:09 < kribacr> lindar: You should talk!
25 Jan 2010 08:54:12 < lindar> clsn: Yeah, I think Filipino people have trouble with F's, so there are plenty of different people that have trouble pronouncing things which we find easy.
25 Jan 2010 08:54:14 < vensa> now for another thought experiment:
25 Jan 2010 08:54:35 < lindar> kribacr: Yeah, I do when you're not going on about weird calendars or not doing anything about a problem I've pointed out.
25 Jan 2010 08:54:48 < lindar> Perhaps we could actually address and solve the issue about a proper dating convention?
25 Jan 2010 08:54:49 < vensa> imagine I walk into a room, and the first thing I say is "go'i" - what happens?
25 Jan 2010 08:54:59 < lindar> vensa: Nobody understands you.
25 Jan 2010 08:55:09 < clsn> everyone looks at you mystified and hides the silverware and anything sharp.
25 Jan 2010 08:55:14 < feliks> i just wondered, read the rule but no explanation why. could those letter combos cause ambiguity in some context? but why then forbidden also in names? makes totally no sense i.m.o., but i'm new
25 Jan 2010 08:55:17 < vensa> lol
25 Jan 2010 08:55:18 < cmacis> or blunt
25 Jan 2010 08:55:23 < lindar> Now imagine this: I walk into a room and say, "Yeah, I just did." - What happens?
25 Jan 2010 08:55:27 < kribacr> We put you away for coming up with strange hypotheticals that are entirely too uncommon.
25 Jan 2010 08:55:34 < clsn> lindar: I accidentally the whole bottle!
25 Jan 2010 08:55:41 < vensa> I thought it was one of those, pointing to negative infinity paradoxes :P
25 Jan 2010 08:56:20 < lindar> Yes, I know you're worried about the fourteen monkeys carrying the piano filled with salt, but you need to calm down and take your meds before we have to fetch Bubba that wears the white coat.
25 Jan 2010 08:56:37 < clsn> (oright; gotta take meds...)
25 Jan 2010 08:56:38 < vensa> too bad there isn't a way of "subscripting" go'i with a speakers name
25 Jan 2010 08:56:59 < lindar> You mean {mi'e}?
25 Jan 2010 08:57:09 <@xalbo> feliks: I think the idea is that impermissible clusters are considered "hard to pronounce" or "hard to distinguish".  Then we make them illegal everywhere, so once you get lojbo phonotactics in your head, you don't need to make those hard sound combinations.
25 Jan 2010 08:57:10 < vensa> that way I could refer to clsn's previous sentence even if several lindars have spoken in between
25 Jan 2010 08:57:19 < clsn> I bet if you used {xi} and subscripted it that way it would probably work (though you'd have to do some magic to make it fit into mekso)
25 Jan 2010 08:57:32 < clsn> “work” meaning “be understood”
25 Jan 2010 08:57:54 < vensa> clsn: but xi is just counting back, including the number of statements said by other ppl. no?
25 Jan 2010 08:58:18 < lindar> EhwtfIdon'tunderstandthatvalsi.
25 Jan 2010 08:58:20 <@xalbo> {go'i xi cy.}
25 Jan 2010 08:58:27 < vensa> I want: go'i pe la clsn or somethin
25 Jan 2010 08:58:27 < lindar> vensa: Either way {go'i} is -only- the last thing said. You want {go'e}.
25 Jan 2010 08:58:36 < lindar> =D
25 Jan 2010 08:58:43 < clsn> {xi} is theoretically pretty open-ended... hmm.
25 Jan 2010 08:58:49 < vensa> lindar: not necessarily.  I want the last thing said by clsn
25 Jan 2010 08:58:51 < clsn> {go'i sei la clsn cuksu} ?
25 Jan 2010 08:59:04 <@xalbo> {go'i xi clsn bu}
25 Jan 2010 08:59:12 < feliks> xalbo i can't find myself buying that. what's hard about "hamza" (an arabic letteral)? and the other examples given
25 Jan 2010 08:59:14 < vensa> not familiar with "sei"
25 Jan 2010 08:59:23 < lindar> vensa: Whatever. {go'i} is wrong for what you want as that refers to the last thing said.
25 Jan 2010 08:59:31 < vensa> xalbo: a lot of ideas. is there a STANDARD method?
25 Jan 2010 08:59:44 <@Broca> Is this “mz” again?
25 Jan 2010 08:59:47 < lindar> {go'i} glossing to "last bridi" of selma'o GOhA   pro-bridi: preceding bridi; in answer to a yes/no question, repeats the claim, meaning yes.
25 Jan 2010 08:59:49 < vensa> lindar: it IS the last thing said (BY X)
25 Jan 2010 08:59:51 <@Broca> Supposedly confusable with “nz”.
25 Jan 2010 08:59:57 <@xalbo> m/z is a stupid thing to make illegal, I agree.
25 Jan 2010 09:00:01 < vensa> lindar: you're starting to quote makfa again
25 Jan 2010 09:00:03 < lindar> -_-
25 Jan 2010 09:00:13 < clsn> And anything about go'i would apply also to di'u...
25 Jan 2010 09:00:14 < lindar> {go'e} glossing to "penultimate bridi" of selma'o GOhA   pro-bridi: repeats the next to last bridi.
25 Jan 2010 09:00:22 < vensa> are you going to quote it 50 times until we accept your POV?
25 Jan 2010 09:00:26 < clsn> and some of the rest of GOhA, yes.
25 Jan 2010 09:00:30 < lindar> No, I'm not quoting makfa, I'm quoting the effing hardline dictionary definition.
25 Jan 2010 09:00:39 < vensa> same thing
25 Jan 2010 09:00:48 < lindar> -___-
25 Jan 2010 09:00:57 < feliks> i was just wondering if there was any other reason to forbid them. something more rational. this seems arcane
25 Jan 2010 09:01:11 < lindar> Is there something wrong with accepting the definition that's hardlined and accepted by the LLG?
25 Jan 2010 09:01:12 < clsn> go'i + XI presumably works with backcounting like ri + XI.
25 Jan 2010 09:01:26 < clsn> which I believe IS official.
25 Jan 2010 09:01:30 <@xalbo> clsn +1
25 Jan 2010 09:01:35 < lindar> [citation needed]
25 Jan 2010 09:01:46 < vensa> lindar: it's wrong when you use the book bliindly and without common sense. kinda like believing in the bible :P
25 Jan 2010 09:02:16 < lindar> vensa: Yeah, except that the refgram wasn't written thousands of years ago and I could just ask John Cowan himself.
25 Jan 2010 09:02:22 < vensa> clsn: but that would need a number, no?
25 Jan 2010 09:02:26 < lindar> James?
25 Jan 2010 09:02:27  * clsn checks up and researches for lindar.  Yeah, I'm certain: I'm definitely too lazy to look up the reference for you.
25 Jan 2010 09:02:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit []
25 Jan 2010 09:02:41 < lindar> >_> I can never remember JCowan's first name.
25 Jan 2010 09:02:43 < clsn> vensa: yes, it would.  so wouldn't do whatyou're asking.
25 Jan 2010 09:02:45 < clsn> John.
25 Jan 2010 09:02:49 < vensa> :(
25 Jan 2010 09:02:53 <@xalbo> The cmavo ``go'e'' means the same as ``go'ixire'': it repeats the last bridi but one.
25 Jan 2010 09:02:55 < lindar> Okay, I got it right the first time.
25 Jan 2010 09:03:03 <@xalbo> http://jbotcan.org/cllc/c7/s6.html
25 Jan 2010 09:03:04 < clsn> James is a classic example of {mz} because it has to be {djeimyz}
25 Jan 2010 09:03:04 < lindar> Oooooh, that's handy.
25 Jan 2010 09:03:09 <@xalbo> right before example 6.10
25 Jan 2010 09:03:21 -!- Hussell [n=Jeremy_H@bas6-kitchener06-1177626048.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 09:03:39 < vensa> so is go'ixiclsn acceptable or not?
25 Jan 2010 09:03:40 <@xalbo> or {djeimdz}
25 Jan 2010 09:04:09 < lindar> ....with the proper gadri, sure. >_>
25 Jan 2010 09:04:13 <@xalbo> *{go'i xi .clsn.} isn't; {xi} is followe by a mekso.
25 Jan 2010 09:04:19 < neptunepink> djeims? :(
25 Jan 2010 09:04:22 < lindar> Oh, there you go.
25 Jan 2010 09:04:24 < lindar> -_-
25 Jan 2010 09:04:26 < clsn> vensa: as such, no.  {go'i xi clsn.bu} is arguably grammatical, per my muse on that wiki page regarding CMEVLA+bu.
25 Jan 2010 09:04:28 < lindar> I'm going to go eat something.
25 Jan 2010 09:04:29 < vensa> how do I make a mekso
25 Jan 2010 09:04:37 < clsn> Whether or not it's understood is another question.
25 Jan 2010 09:04:44 < vensa> ok
25 Jan 2010 09:04:55 < vensa> so "go'i xi clsn.bu"
25 Jan 2010 09:04:58 < vensa> I like it
25 Jan 2010 09:05:00 < clsn> It's not a general answer though.  Because you can't say {*go'i xi lo ctuca}
25 Jan 2010 09:05:10 < vensa> oh...
25 Jan 2010 09:05:13 < neptunepink> Is it really arguable if you can't argue against it?
25 Jan 2010 09:05:17 < vensa> then you'd have to know the person's name
25 Jan 2010 09:05:22 < clsn> Isn't there a sumti-to-mekso converter?
25 Jan 2010 09:05:54 <@xalbo> {go'i xi mo'e la .clsn.} seems like it should work, but doesn't.
25 Jan 2010 09:06:14 < clsn> xalbo: me'o not mo'e right?
25 Jan 2010 09:06:25 < clsn> no, nevermind.
25 Jan 2010 09:06:31 <@xalbo> No, {mo'e}, sumti to operand.
25 Jan 2010 09:07:07 < vensa> maybe "makfa doesn't recognize it". that doesnt mean it doesn't "work"
25 Jan 2010 09:08:50 <@xalbo> go'i xi vei mo'e la .clsn.
25 Jan 2010 09:09:07 <@xalbo> ``xi'' may be followed by a number, a lerfu string, or a general mekso expression in parentheses:
25 Jan 2010 09:09:08 < clsn> works, but bleah.
25 Jan 2010 09:09:19 < vensa> cool
25 Jan 2010 09:09:32 < vensa> so as I was saying:
25 Jan 2010 09:09:42 < vensa> pau go'i xi vei mo'e la clsn
25 Jan 2010 09:10:12 < clsn> {xi} is so cool tho; bummer it isn't more general.
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25 Jan 2010 09:12:13 < vensa> btw: I'm referring to the last formal thing that clsn said, in pure lojban:
25 Jan 2010 09:12:13 < vensa> [18:48] <clsn> pau do djica tavla ma
25 Jan 2010 09:12:13 <@xalbo> It would be nice to have a {xi}-like that accepts any sumti.
25 Jan 2010 09:12:35 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.7.143] has quit ["Leaving."]
25 Jan 2010 09:12:58 <@xalbo> And just this morning, I was longing again for pro-sumti for "here" and "now".
25 Jan 2010 09:13:21 < vensa> xalbo: I often long for those too
25 Jan 2010 09:13:38 < vensa> I end up using something like "le vi se zvati"
25 Jan 2010 09:14:42 < neptunepink> So, should KOhA take xi?
25 Jan 2010 09:15:07 < neptunepink> Oh, it sorta does, nvm.
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25 Jan 2010 09:16:43 < vensa> coi melvar
25 Jan 2010 09:16:58 < Melvar> coi vensa
25 Jan 2010 09:17:04 < vensa> ma nuzba
25 Jan 2010 09:18:44 < Melvar> …What does one call the delimiters on a ZOI-preceded string?
25 Jan 2010 09:19:11 <@xalbo> "delimiters" is the term I've seen more frequently.
25 Jan 2010 09:19:17 < vensa> arbitrary
25 Jan 2010 09:19:18 < vensa> jk
25 Jan 2010 09:19:26 < Melvar> I mean a Lojban word for them.
25 Jan 2010 09:20:26 < vensa> lerfu?
25 Jan 2010 09:20:47 -!- mefistofeles [n=Tathar@unaffiliated/mefistofeles] has quit ["brb"]
25 Jan 2010 09:20:58 < Melvar> They don’t need to be lerfu. It can be any word.
25 Jan 2010 09:21:19 < lindar> Is there a Lojban word for delimiters?
25 Jan 2010 09:21:36 < vensa> lerfu can be "more than one letter"
25 Jan 2010 09:21:58 < Melvar> Anyway, what I was going to say is that I’ve found a delimiter that cannot occur in German text, and is therefore generally usable when quoting German.
25 Jan 2010 09:22:00 < lindar> btw: I think it's common practice to use the referent of the language you're quoting, like {zoi gy. English .gy.}.
25 Jan 2010 09:22:34 < vensa> and zoi my American English  my ?
25 Jan 2010 09:22:41 < lindar> {zoi dy. German .dy.}
25 Jan 2010 09:22:57 < Melvar> “dy.” does not work for le dotybau because it occurs rather frequently in it.
25 Jan 2010 09:23:02 < vensa> zoi my color my zoiy gy colour gy
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25 Jan 2010 09:23:21 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 09:23:49 < vensa> melvar: only if it is followed by a "." is id considered the delimiter
25 Jan 2010 09:23:56 < vensa> do germans say "dy." alot?
25 Jan 2010 09:24:04 < lindar> vensa +1
25 Jan 2010 09:24:07 < Melvar> It occurs at the ends of words.
25 Jan 2010 09:24:10 < vensa> wohoo
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25 Jan 2010 09:24:37 < vensa> well, as lindar pointed out: I think it needs to be preceded by a "." at the end
25 Jan 2010 09:24:57 < Melvar> You’re saying it must be “.dy.”?
25 Jan 2010 09:25:10 < vensa> zoi gy. bla bla .gy. <---------
25 Jan 2010 09:25:15 < vensa> at the end - yes
25 Jan 2010 09:25:21 < lindar> zoi dy. Deutsch .dy.
25 Jan 2010 09:25:22 < Melvar> Then it would work, but I would avoid it nonetheless.
25 Jan 2010 09:25:43 < vensa> you're right
25 Jan 2010 09:25:51 < vensa> i mean: it's you're right to avoid it :)
25 Jan 2010 09:26:00 < vensa> hehehe... english ambiguity
25 Jan 2010 09:26:11 < lindar> The point is that denpa bu should be a sufficient pause or glottal stop to prevent such confusion, so if it causes confusion, you're doing it incorrectly.
25 Jan 2010 09:26:21 < vensa> I mean "YOUR" prob
25 Jan 2010 09:27:12 < vensa> and by "prob" I meant "la'a"
25 Jan 2010 09:27:17 < vensa> not problem
25 Jan 2010 09:27:22 < vensa> nm
25 Jan 2010 09:27:24 < vensa> I'm losing it
25 Jan 2010 09:27:51 < lindar> xD
25 Jan 2010 09:27:56 < lindar> Just speak Lojban already.
25 Jan 2010 09:28:02 < vensa> je'e
25 Jan 2010 09:28:13 < lindar> .i do djuno lo du'u do djica =P
25 Jan 2010 09:28:28 < vensa> You know you want it? :P
25 Jan 2010 09:28:44 < vensa> go'i ra'o
25 Jan 2010 09:28:49 < vensa> sa
25 Jan 2010 09:28:51 < vensa> go'u
25 Jan 2010 09:28:52 < vensa> sa
25 Jan 2010 09:28:53 < vensa> go'i
25 Jan 2010 09:29:50 < vensa> rodo djica lenu tavla fi ma
25 Jan 2010 09:30:00 < lindar> Sorry, I forgot that you prefer preciseness over brevity. {.i pe'i do djuno lo du'u do djica lo nu tavla fo la .lojban. po'o vau kei ku vau kei ku vau}
25 Jan 2010 09:30:20 < vensa> u'isai ju'enai
25 Jan 2010 09:30:35 < vensa> sa
25 Jan 2010 09:30:42 < vensa> u'sai je'unai
25 Jan 2010 09:30:47 < vensa> sa
25 Jan 2010 09:30:50 < vensa> u'isai je'unai
25 Jan 2010 09:31:09 < vensa> (finally!... that's me saying: "very funny" sarcasticly
25 Jan 2010 09:31:16 < lindar> I see you've mastered the nuances of {sa}. o/⁵\o
25 Jan 2010 09:31:42 < vensa> mi bazi se'ixru
25 Jan 2010 09:31:58 < neptunepink> You forgot mu'o
25 Jan 2010 09:31:59 < lindar> .i xu do de'a jundi
25 Jan 2010 09:32:00 < vensa> mi'o bazi kelci la redo preti
25 Jan 2010 09:32:06 < vensa> go'e
25 Jan 2010 09:32:45 < lindar> co'o
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25 Jan 2010 09:34:16 < vensa> mi mo'u se'ixru
25 Jan 2010 09:35:42 < vensa> mi puzi ei pincyvi'i
25 Jan 2010 09:36:10 <@xalbo> .i mi na djica lo nu djuno
25 Jan 2010 09:36:29 < vensa> u'u
25 Jan 2010 09:36:45 < vensa> xu su'odo djica lonu kelci la reno preti
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25 Jan 2010 09:39:31 < lindar> .yyyy .i na djica ki'u lo nu mi viska jundi la'o gy. Red Dwarf .gy.
25 Jan 2010 09:39:49 < vensa> je'e
25 Jan 2010 09:39:53 < vensa> uinai
25 Jan 2010 09:42:13 < vensa> mi pu jinvi ledu'u do pu djica lonu jinga fi mi
25 Jan 2010 09:43:05 < vensa> mi sruma ledu'u mi pu srera
25 Jan 2010 09:43:28 < vensa> doi la xalbo do jundi xu
25 Jan 2010 09:45:01 < vensa> doi melvar do jundi vau xu
25 Jan 2010 09:45:21 < Melvar> go'i
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25 Jan 2010 09:45:46 < vensa> xu do djica lenu tavla fo la lojban
25 Jan 2010 09:46:06 < vensa> ui
25 Jan 2010 09:47:01 < vensa> ta'o coi kpreid
25 Jan 2010 09:47:43 < kpreid> coico'o mi ca na jundi
25 Jan 2010 09:47:54 < vensa> je'e
25 Jan 2010 09:47:57 <@xalbo> mi milxe jundi
25 Jan 2010 09:48:17 < vensa> xu do djica lenu zmadu jundi
25 Jan 2010 09:49:06 <@xalbo> la'a mi ba jundi jdika vau .u'u
25 Jan 2010 09:49:42 < vensa> ki'u ma do jinvi la'
25 Jan 2010 09:49:46 < vensa> si la'e di'u
25 Jan 2010 09:50:15 <@xalbo> lo nu mi se jibri gunka ca'o ku
25 Jan 2010 09:50:29 < vensa> je'e
25 Jan 2010 09:50:53 < vensa> ji'a mi jibri gunka .i ku'i le gunka cu milxe
25 Jan 2010 09:51:10 < vensa> ma jibri do
25 Jan 2010 09:52:53 < vensa> doi melvar mu'i ma do na spuda
25 Jan 2010 09:54:26 <@xalbo> mi lo skami ku kurji
25 Jan 2010 09:54:30 < Melvar> lonu la'oi kpreid .e la xalbo ku spuda
25 Jan 2010 09:54:57 < vensa> mi ba cliva le mi briju ba lo pano mentu
25 Jan 2010 09:55:39 < vensa> doi melvar mi djica lenu tavla do ji'a
25 Jan 2010 09:56:49 < vensa> doi la xalbo le do jibri cu zvati ma
25 Jan 2010 09:57:13 <@xalbo> lo balcu'e
25 Jan 2010 09:57:23 < Melvar> mi bazi citka lo vacysai .i co'o
25 Jan 2010 09:57:47 < vensa> co'o melvar
25 Jan 2010 09:58:13 < vensa> ki'a vacysai
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25 Jan 2010 09:59:20 < vensa> doi la xalbo mo trupau
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25 Jan 2010 10:00:32 <@xalbo> zbaske
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25 Jan 2010 10:00:46 <@xalbo> to lo'u doi la xalbo do'u toi
25 Jan 2010 10:01:34 < vensa> ua
25 Jan 2010 10:01:45 < vensa> you're right, I forgot the mo could merge into a tanru there
25 Jan 2010 10:02:09 < vensa> and you forgot that I like being corrected in english :)
25 Jan 2010 10:02:09 < vensa> nm
25 Jan 2010 10:02:16 < vensa> mi ca cliva le mi briju
25 Jan 2010 10:02:19 < vensa> co'o rodo
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25 Jan 2010 10:09:39 < neptunepink> la mas noi xabju la mastcas vau fe la krismas mutce nelci .i ku'i la grinc noi berti zdani ku'o na go'i
25 Jan 2010 10:12:29 < lindar> .______.
25 Jan 2010 10:14:30 < neptunepink> mo
25 Jan 2010 10:14:49 < neptunepink> .___mo___.
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25 Jan 2010 10:18:16 < lindar> I'm really upset that my legitimate concern/complaint was passed over and pretty much ignored.
25 Jan 2010 10:18:40 < lindar> That's the reason why nothing ever gets done. As soon as somebody points out something that can be fixed, everybody changes the topic, and not even to something about Lojban.
25 Jan 2010 10:19:06 < lindar> I even offered to do it myself provided somebody told me how or gave me the permission to do it, but nobody could put forth that much effort.
25 Jan 2010 10:20:06 < lindar> I offered to go through every single entry in jbovlaste and delete erroneous entries and I was just completely ignored.
25 Jan 2010 10:24:29 < neptunepink> At the very least, you could make note of them. You might get better response on the mailing list.
25 Jan 2010 10:24:47 < neptunepink> .oi ckule klama
25 Jan 2010 10:25:00 <@xalbo> I gave you the only answer I have: downvote and edit to add comments.
25 Jan 2010 10:25:21 -!- Netsplit lindbohm.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: die_z, lis_nunyn_, incucullo, derf0, krici, garfiield, kizzo, Valodim, shachaf, niekie,  (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
25 Jan 2010 10:29:18 < kribacr> lindar: You have to understand that I'm only half paying attention in here most of the day. I am at work.
25 Jan 2010 10:30:36 < lindar> -_- Bureaucracy sucks.
25 Jan 2010 10:31:00 < kribacr> Isn't jbovlaste open and editable?
25 Jan 2010 10:32:13 <@xalbo> Although I think {soldei} shouldn't be preferred (and I don't think it is, anymore), it should probably exist in jbovlaste in some form or another.
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25 Jan 2010 10:32:42 <@xalbo> Deleting it just means that anyone who does see it used later is going to be even more confused than ever.
25 Jan 2010 10:33:05 <@xalbo> So again, downvote it, and add a comment to the better alternative.
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25 Jan 2010 10:36:54 < lindar> xalbo: It's no longer preferred because I downvoted it and upvoted the alternative.
25 Jan 2010 10:37:04 <@xalbo> There you go, then.
25 Jan 2010 10:37:13 < lindar> I'll start going through and downvoting things, then.
25 Jan 2010 10:37:23 < lindar> I'll also post the issue and a list of the words to the Lojban List.
25 Jan 2010 10:37:32 < lindar> ...right after I finish this episode.
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25 Jan 2010 11:26:16 < lakatoc> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 11:26:22 < lakatoc> .i do mo
25 Jan 2010 11:27:48 < lindar> coi
25 Jan 2010 11:28:00 < lindar> to'e co'e
25 Jan 2010 11:32:26 <@xalbo> coi tolco'e
25 Jan 2010 11:37:09 -!- zeotrope [n=zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096641911.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 11:42:04 < lindar> Oooh, new name.
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25 Jan 2010 11:53:35 < lindar> .yyyyyy. la .lojban. mo
25 Jan 2010 11:54:10 <@xalbo> bangu lo bebna lo se bebna
25 Jan 2010 11:57:20 < lindar> =P
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25 Jan 2010 13:34:00 < donri> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 13:34:12 < donri> i ue coi la'oi Katt_jaCigg ji'a
25 Jan 2010 13:39:41 < kribacr> coi la donri
25 Jan 2010 13:39:47 < mathw> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 13:40:15 < kribacr> coi la'oi .mathw.
25 Jan 2010 13:45:18 < mathw> hmm. What's 'watch' in the sense of 'watching television'
25 Jan 2010 13:46:30 <@Broca> zgana
25 Jan 2010 13:46:55 < komfn> catlu ?
25 Jan 2010 13:48:43 <@xalbo> I've always liked {ve tivni}, but I think that's supposed to the box instead of the human.
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25 Jan 2010 13:49:07 <@xalbo> (let's not forget {sfofybakni})
25 Jan 2010 13:49:15 < mathw> saying {mi zgana lo tivni} seems wrong, certainly
25 Jan 2010 13:49:31 < mathw> or is it like watching a television broadcast
25 Jan 2010 13:49:39 < mathw> which I suppose is more interesting than watching the television device
25 Jan 2010 13:49:43 < mathw> which might be switched off
25 Jan 2010 13:49:54 < mathw> so maybe I just changed my mind
25 Jan 2010 13:50:01 < komfn> I think {zgana le se tivni}
25 Jan 2010 13:50:10 <@xalbo> .ie
25 Jan 2010 13:50:29 < mathw> watching a programme, yes
25 Jan 2010 13:50:39 < mathw> that's even better :)
25 Jan 2010 13:51:40 < mathw> .ui mi zgana lo se tivni
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25 Jan 2010 13:53:29 < mathw> Now, how do I say what it's about? :)
25 Jan 2010 13:53:48 < LogicalDash> try "lisri"
25 Jan 2010 13:54:14 < LogicalDash> assuming it is a narrative show and not a sports show or somesuch
25 Jan 2010 13:55:08 < mathw> well in this case it's about {lo jukpa}
25 Jan 2010 13:56:24 < komfn> {zgana lo se tivni co lisri be lo jukpa}
25 Jan 2010 13:56:32 < komfn> that's one way.
25 Jan 2010 13:57:18 < LogicalDash> zgana lo se tivni be fi'o lo jukpa
25 Jan 2010 13:57:36 < LogicalDash> that's a vague way; it only tells you that the show somehow concerns cooking
25 Jan 2010 13:57:43 < komfn> ... be fi'o se lisri lo jukpa
25 Jan 2010 13:57:58 < komfn> And it's about a chef, yes?
25 Jan 2010 13:58:01 < LogicalDash> come to think of it the easiest way is probably
25 Jan 2010 13:58:07 < LogicalDash> zgana lo se tivni pe lo jukpa
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25 Jan 2010 13:59:05 < mathw> well actually come to think of it, this is more {zgana lo se tivni pe lo nu jukpa}
25 Jan 2010 13:59:29 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 13:59:31 < lindar> jundi
25 Jan 2010 14:00:08 < LogicalDash> {be fi'o} is probably only useful if you need to distinguish between, e.g., an instructional show and a narrative show
25 Jan 2010 14:00:27 < mathw> and most of the time that's not enormously important
25 Jan 2010 14:00:33 < mathw> maybe if you were writing a TV guide in Lojban
25 Jan 2010 14:00:39 < LogicalDash> .i'e
25 Jan 2010 14:01:39 <@xalbo> .i mi jundi lo tivyskina be lo pu'u jukpa
25 Jan 2010 14:01:53 < LogicalDash> ma valsi la'o gy. window sill .gy. la lojban
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25 Jan 2010 14:02:39 < komfn> lu canko kajna li'u
25 Jan 2010 14:02:51 < LogicalDash> .ui.ki'e la komfn.
25 Jan 2010 14:03:05 < komfn> je'e
25 Jan 2010 14:03:27 < mathw> {lo pu'u jukpa}! of course. I really must remember {pu'u}
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25 Jan 2010 14:06:48 < LogicalDash> how about "plug" or "socket"
25 Jan 2010 14:07:24 < komfn> Stumped.
25 Jan 2010 14:10:39 < LogicalDash> let's see, a plug is a hole that's meant to be filled with some particular object
25 Jan 2010 14:10:58 < LogicalDash> so start with kevna
25 Jan 2010 14:11:05 < komfn> Wait. You call the outlet the plug in your country?
25 Jan 2010 14:11:24 < mathw> the plug is what goes in the hole...
25 Jan 2010 14:11:49 < LogicalDash> Yeah, that's true
25 Jan 2010 14:11:52 < LogicalDash> Socket, then
25 Jan 2010 14:12:32 < LogicalDash> oh durr
25 Jan 2010 14:12:36 < LogicalDash> tersetca = socket
25 Jan 2010 14:12:49 < LogicalDash> selsetca = plug
25 Jan 2010 14:12:52 < lindar> Woah, we have newbies making up words? Interesting!
25 Jan 2010 14:13:12 < LogicalDash> mi na mutce cnino .oiru'e
25 Jan 2010 14:13:15 < lindar> Don't make up lujvo just so you can put lo in front of it. What's the place structure?
25 Jan 2010 14:13:24 < komfn> Those are vaguish, but I haven't got anything better.
25 Jan 2010 14:13:43 < LogicalDash> fine, te setca
25 Jan 2010 14:14:01 < komfn> The place structures of those lujvo are pre-defined.
25 Jan 2010 14:14:23 < LogicalDash> sel-, ter-, and friends are predefined?
25 Jan 2010 14:14:28 < LogicalDash> I mean I hope so
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25 Jan 2010 14:14:42 < komfn> All they do is move the places around.
25 Jan 2010 14:15:15 < LogicalDash> Right, but I was also told that you can't rely on the place structures of rafsi in deciding the place structure of the lujvo
25 Jan 2010 14:15:55 < komfn> In the case where the lujvo is made from more than one gismu, yes.
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25 Jan 2010 14:16:17 < komfn> When it's made from SE and one gismu...
25 Jan 2010 14:16:55 < komfn> you retain all the places of the gismu, nor do you add any.
25 Jan 2010 14:17:18 < komfn> I'm like 99% sure of this. If I'm wrong that's a lot of chaos in the language.
25 Jan 2010 14:17:34 < lindar> >_>
25 Jan 2010 14:17:35 < komfn> If {se klama} != {selkla}, then ick.
25 Jan 2010 14:17:45 < lindar> I wasn't really paying attention, I just saw lujvo.
25 Jan 2010 14:18:11 < komfn> Ah.
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25 Jan 2010 14:44:33 < cj> moo
25 Jan 2010 14:45:18 < cj> anyone want to make an hpsg computational grammar for lojban?
25 Jan 2010 14:45:19 < cj> http://www.delph-in.net/matrix/customize/matrix.cgi
25 Jan 2010 14:46:27 < lindar> ?
25 Jan 2010 14:46:29 < lindar> I'm sorry?
25 Jan 2010 14:47:19 < lindar> Uhh... No. We need people working on our own development right now. =D
25 Jan 2010 14:47:47 < lindar> If you know Lojban and are willing to help, we have plenty of work to go around fixing all the bugs we have now. We don't need to create a port of Lojban to a different grammar structure.
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25 Jan 2010 14:54:16 < donri> lindar has issues, ignore it.
25 Jan 2010 14:55:39 < lindar> >_____>
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25 Jan 2010 15:04:39 < lindar> Yeah, major issues.
25 Jan 2010 15:05:16 < lindar> .i xu doi .c.j. do kakne lo nu tavla fo la .lojban.
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25 Jan 2010 15:42:47 < thaostra> hello
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25 Jan 2010 16:25:36 < varkiclaflo`i> ro da na tavla .i coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 16:25:48 < varkiclaflo`i> ...
25 Jan 2010 16:25:54 < varkiclaflo`i> *rodo
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25 Jan 2010 16:45:21 < varkiclaflo`i> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 16:45:38 < donri> coi roda
25 Jan 2010 16:46:12 < varkiclaflo`i> coi donri
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25 Jan 2010 16:53:14 < varkiclaflo`i> co'o rodo
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25 Jan 2010 16:59:47 < krici> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 17:04:04 < thaostra> coi
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25 Jan 2010 17:32:25 < Sonja> mi prenu
25 Jan 2010 17:33:14 < djanatyn_> .ue
25 Jan 2010 17:43:59 < Sonja> if there's only one thing you're pointing at, do you use ti or ta by default?
25 Jan 2010 17:44:35 < Sonja> the distinction between ti and ta becomes more useful when you're comparing to objects at two different distances
25 Jan 2010 17:45:59 < donri> "ti" is something close to me, "ta" something close to you, "tu" something far from the both of us
25 Jan 2010 17:46:35 < Sonja> ah
25 Jan 2010 17:46:42 < treed> Sonja: the number of things is not relevant to which one I use
25 Jan 2010 17:46:48 < treed> what donri said
25 Jan 2010 17:47:06 < treed> You could totally say xa ti
25 Jan 2010 17:47:12 < treed> these six things
25 Jan 2010 17:47:40 < Sonja> so ti ta tu are not used on IRC because we can't point?
25 Jan 2010 17:48:29 < treed> Sometimes they're used.
25 Jan 2010 17:48:37 < treed> but it's pretty rare
25 Jan 2010 17:50:06 < Sonja> .ua
25 Jan 2010 17:52:58 < Sonja> .ie is roughly "okay" ?
25 Jan 2010 17:54:38 < donri> "yea!" "in deed!"
25 Jan 2010 17:54:55 < donri> okay is more "je'e", depending on the use
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25 Jan 2010 18:00:26 < treed> .ie is agreement
25 Jan 2010 18:00:30 < treed> .i'e is approval
25 Jan 2010 18:00:47 < treed> .e'a is "i permit this"
25 Jan 2010 18:00:59 < treed> all of which I could use "okay" for
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25 Jan 2010 18:14:10 < Sonja> how do people usually say good niĝt or similar expressions?
25 Jan 2010 18:14:54 < donri> ko pluka sipna, is popular
25 Jan 2010 18:14:54 < Hussell> co'o
25 Jan 2010 18:15:30 < foaly_> Co'o was my guess, but I thought that was just goodbye
25 Jan 2010 18:17:28 < donri> co'o sipna, would be a good one
25 Jan 2010 18:17:36 < donri> "bye, sleepy head!"
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25 Jan 2010 18:17:53 < donri> (more literally tatpi, but meh.)
25 Jan 2010 18:18:48 < foaly_> Ah, thanks, didn't know that one. I'm still very new to Lojban. It looks pretty cool though
25 Jan 2010 18:19:36 < neptunepink> Ordered it.
25 Jan 2010 18:19:53 < neptunepink> wrong channel. :P
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25 Jan 2010 18:20:30 < donri> neptunepink, your order is not in order.
25 Jan 2010 18:20:38 < foaly_> haha
25 Jan 2010 18:21:19 < donri> in order to order order, make an ordeal
25 Jan 2010 18:21:39 < Hussell> Is "co'o pu'o sipna" legal?
25 Jan 2010 18:21:47 < donri> OMG SEMANTIC SATIATION the word order is starting to feel out of order
25 Jan 2010 18:21:59 < foaly_> wow :D
25 Jan 2010 18:22:01 < neptunepink> Is that what that's called?
25 Jan 2010 18:22:11 < donri> neptunepink, in dinosaur comics, anyway!
25 Jan 2010 18:22:29 < donri> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1580
25 Jan 2010 18:22:31 < neptunepink> .ua I don't read them.
25 Jan 2010 18:22:59 < donri> should!
25 Jan 2010 18:23:20 < donri> Hussell, sure
25 Jan 2010 18:23:48 < donri> probably rarely needed, however
25 Jan 2010 18:24:17 < donri> if you're talking to a sipna, likely they're not caca'a sipna
25 Jan 2010 18:24:37 < djanatyn_> coi
25 Jan 2010 18:24:56 < djanatyn_> ...co'o
25 Jan 2010 18:25:26 < donri> (unless they're using TCMP of course; http://xkcd.com/269/ )
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25 Jan 2010 18:25:46 < Hussell> What, you've never said goodnight to someone who was already sound asleep? :)
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25 Jan 2010 18:53:21 < CodeBlock> coi rodo
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25 Jan 2010 19:54:59 < krici> co'o mi tatpi
25 Jan 2010 19:55:12 < zariuq> co'o
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25 Jan 2010 23:14:41 < vensa> coi rodo .i xu su'odo cikna
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25 Jan 2010 23:21:28 < lindar> PANK!
25 Jan 2010 23:22:17 < Hugglesworth> PANK?
25 Jan 2010 23:24:58 < lindar> Yep.
25 Jan 2010 23:27:21 < Hugglesworth> co'o
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25 Jan 2010 23:28:46 < lindar> Anything else happening?
25 Jan 2010 23:31:02 -!- stupid2 [n=Arrgh@91-65-140-21-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lojban
25 Jan 2010 23:31:45 < stupid2> coi ro do
25 Jan 2010 23:32:16 < lindar> cooooi
25 Jan 2010 23:44:13 < stupid2> mi tatpi
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25 Jan 2010 23:50:17 < vensa> coi rodo
25 Jan 2010 23:50:29 < vensa> doi la'oi stupid2 ki'u ma do tatpi
25 Jan 2010 23:53:18 < stupid2> xu re do tatpi (My first own generated question in lojban! yeah!)
25 Jan 2010 23:53:42 < stupid2> *ro
25 Jan 2010 23:53:56 < stupid2> and i failed with it -.-
25 Jan 2010 23:54:50 < vensa> you didn't necessarily fail
25 Jan 2010 23:54:59 < vensa> there are two of us here: me and lindar :)
25 Jan 2010 23:55:31 < vensa> you asked: "are the two of you tired"
25 Jan 2010 23:56:12 < lindar> =D
25 Jan 2010 23:56:29 < vensa> mi na tatpi .i mi puzi co'a cikna
25 Jan 2010 23:57:10 < vensa> coi lindar
25 Jan 2010 23:57:12 < vensa> xu do tatpi
25 Jan 2010 23:57:56 < stupid2> i know re is two and ro means every but i always write re -.-
25 Jan 2010 23:59:09 < vensa> s'ok. get used to it. you'll probably be making alot of "letter swapping" mistakes in your first Lojban sentences. I'm still making them
25 Jan 2010 23:59:44 < vensa> doi la'oi stupid2 ma temci lenu do cilre fi la lojban
26 Jan 2010 00:02:08 < stupid2> yeah but i has only a very small vocabulary and i need jboski for the most of ure sentences
26 Jan 2010 00:02:18 < stupid2> * yeah = yes
26 Jan 2010 00:03:03 < vensa> that's exactly the way to expand you're vocabulary :)
26 Jan 2010 00:03:14 < vensa> *your
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26 Jan 2010 00:17:05  * lindar dansu
26 Jan 2010 00:18:24 < lindar> Do something interesting.
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26 Jan 2010 00:23:09 < stupid2> i do that for what i paid to do.
26 Jan 2010 00:23:45 < stupid2> pls translate :)
26 Jan 2010 00:25:16 < lindar> >_>
26 Jan 2010 00:25:27 < lindar> I don't understand your sentence in English, unfortunately. Rephrase?
26 Jan 2010 00:26:03 < vensa> wow lindar, how stupid2 can u get? (no offense)
26 Jan 2010 00:27:02 -!- erth64net [n=gregg@pdxvmh15.tocici.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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26 Jan 2010 00:27:26 < stupid2> no rephrase, i'm too tired to make good sentences
26 Jan 2010 00:27:38 < stupid2> or lets say "understandable"
26 Jan 2010 00:28:08 < vensa> mi jerna loi jdini lonu mi gasnu da poi cinri
26 Jan 2010 00:29:25 < vensa> how's that? "I earn some money for an event of (I do something, which is interesting)"
26 Jan 2010 00:30:16 < stupid2> u wrote something with boring, or?
26 Jan 2010 00:31:03 < vensa> u'u de'a jundi
26 Jan 2010 00:32:06 < lindar> =\ You should learn {jai}.
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26 Jan 2010 00:32:35 < lindar> .i mi jerna lo jdini lo nu mi jai cinri
26 Jan 2010 00:32:59 < lindar> However, that's still correct.
26 Jan 2010 00:34:46 < stupid2> lindar: was it interesting enough for u?
26 Jan 2010 00:35:18 < lindar> I guess?
26 Jan 2010 00:35:31 < lindar> How old are you, btw?
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26 Jan 2010 00:36:47 < stupid2> "lindar: Do something interesting." Why do u need my age?
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26 Jan 2010 00:38:05 < lindar> Just curious. There aren't a lot of young fellows in the chat usually. Most people in here are in their late twenties to mid-forties.
26 Jan 2010 00:38:47 < stupid2> I'm 18
26 Jan 2010 00:39:27 < lindar> Ah. Cool. Do you go to uni?
26 Jan 2010 00:39:47 < stupid2> a/s/l = 18,m,Germany/Saxony/Leipzig
26 Jan 2010 00:40:14 < stupid2> No, pls wait
26 Jan 2010 00:41:03 < stupid2> i'm at training to a programmer
26 Jan 2010 00:41:32 < stupid2> and i'm a member of the pirate party...
26 Jan 2010 00:42:07 < lindar> I see.
26 Jan 2010 00:42:34 < stupid2> and u?
26 Jan 2010 00:43:42 < mathw> coi rodo .i ma fasnu
26 Jan 2010 00:44:00 < lindar> 22/??/English living in Hollywood, CA, USA.
26 Jan 2010 00:45:30 < stupid2> is lindar the lojbanic version of u're nema?
26 Jan 2010 00:45:51 < lindar> I don't know what that means.
26 Jan 2010 00:46:45 < stupid2> i need some coffee...
26 Jan 2010 00:47:01 < mathw> .i mi se sruri lo citno prenu
26 Jan 2010 00:47:22 < lindar> Oh, "your name"?
26 Jan 2010 00:47:22 < lindar> No, it's actually my name.
26 Jan 2010 00:48:25 < lindar> mathw: O_o Eh?
26 Jan 2010 00:49:04 < lindar> loi verba xu
26 Jan 2010 00:49:25 < mathw> go'i
26 Jan 2010 00:49:39 < mathw> :P
26 Jan 2010 00:51:53 < mathw> .i .ei mi cilre zo loi
26 Jan 2010 00:52:58 < mathw> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 00:53:16 < lindar> x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 (obj./event) by method x5 (event/process)
26 Jan 2010 00:53:20 < mathw> Email comes round the office about a new online learning package we can do. It says it requires a 'modern' internet browser like Internet Explorer
26 Jan 2010 00:53:33 < lindar> -_-
26 Jan 2010 00:53:35 < mathw> So IE4 is acceptable then...
26 Jan 2010 00:53:44 < mathw> version numbers are sometimes important
26 Jan 2010 00:53:59 < mathw> And there I am misusing {cilre} again
26 Jan 2010 00:54:03 < lindar> Yesh.
26 Jan 2010 00:54:05 < mathw> One day I'll learn that, too
26 Jan 2010 00:54:21 < lindar> Assume that if there's anything to do with knowledge, x2 is going to require an abstraction.
26 Jan 2010 00:54:41 < mathw> Really need to get my head around abstractions. I keep saying that, and it continues to be true.
26 Jan 2010 00:55:44 < tomoj> do you understand nu?
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26 Jan 2010 00:56:31 < mathw> Yes, {nu} is the one that never causes me any problems, although sometimes I don't use it when it's necessary
26 Jan 2010 00:56:43 < tomoj> ok, so
26 Jan 2010 00:56:45 < mathw> From time to time I remember {du'u}
26 Jan 2010 00:58:19 < tomoj> nu takes a bridi and makes it into a selbri
26 Jan 2010 00:58:54 < mathw> Yes
26 Jan 2010 00:58:55 < tomoj> so you have some truth functional bridi, and you get a handle on it that you can use in some abstract way
26 Jan 2010 01:00:30 < tomoj> there's an example in the cll for du'u
26 Jan 2010 01:00:33 < tomoj> http://dag.github.com/cll/11/8/
26 Jan 2010 01:00:44 < tomoj> when we say "I know who went to the store"
26 Jan 2010 01:01:43 < tomoj> we're talking about an abstract proposition that we know
26 Jan 2010 01:01:54 < tomoj> so you take a bridi "someone went to the store"
26 Jan 2010 01:02:09 < tomoj> in lojban you can make it "who went to the store" with ma
26 Jan 2010 01:02:31 < tomoj> and then mark the ma with kau to mark that it's the subject of this abstract proposition
26 Jan 2010 01:03:14 < tomoj> and then use it as the thing that we know
26 Jan 2010 01:03:23 < donri> "that which would be the answer if this was a question"
26 Jan 2010 01:03:41 < mathw> Sorry, you're losing me
26 Jan 2010 01:04:10 < tomoj> {mi djuno le du'u makau pu klama le zarci}
26 Jan 2010 01:04:33 < tomoj> {ma pu klama le zarci} is a bridi which means like "who went to the store?"
26 Jan 2010 01:04:41 < mathw> yup
26 Jan 2010 01:04:46 < tomoj> the {du'u} abstracts this into a predication
26 Jan 2010 01:05:02 < tomoj> and the {kau} marks {ma} as the important thing, like what donri said
26 Jan 2010 01:05:29 < tomoj> so to know {le du'u makau pu klama le zarci} is to know who went to the store
26 Jan 2010 01:05:53 < mathw> Because the {kau} picks out the important thing in the predication
26 Jan 2010 01:06:15 < donri> ¿ma klama le zarci? i la tomoj i mi djuno lo du'u ma kau klama le zarci i mi djuno lo du'u la tomoj klama le zarci
26 Jan 2010 01:06:15 < tomoj> like you can say {mi djuno le du'u zo'e pu klama le zarci}
26 Jan 2010 01:06:43 < tomoj> and this just means we know that someone went to the store
26 Jan 2010 01:06:44 < mathw> which would mean that you know somebody went to the store
26 Jan 2010 01:06:48 < mathw> but you don't know who
26 Jan 2010 01:06:56 < tomoj> maybe you do, maybe you don't
26 Jan 2010 01:06:58 < mathw> or at least, if you do know who, you're not saying you know that
26 Jan 2010 01:06:58 < donri> because {la tomoj} is the answer to "who went to the store?", in "i know who went to the store" the "who" means "tomoj", so it's saying "i know tomoj went to the store" but indirectly, masked as a question
26 Jan 2010 01:07:01 < tomoj> but you're not saying you know who did
26 Jan 2010 01:07:18 < mathw> brb
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26 Jan 2010 01:07:45 < tomoj> this is too confusing for me to think about right now
26 Jan 2010 01:08:24 < donri> la mikce no'u ma kau
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26 Jan 2010 01:12:28 < vensa> coi
26 Jan 2010 01:12:58 < mathw> donri: what does that mean?
26 Jan 2010 01:13:01 < mathw> coi la vensa
26 Jan 2010 01:13:20 < vensa> coi la'oi mathw .i ma nuzba
26 Jan 2010 01:13:43 < mathw> .i mi cilre
26 Jan 2010 01:14:22 < vensa> ma fi do te cilre
26 Jan 2010 01:15:04 < mathw> {du'u} and {kau}
26 Jan 2010 01:15:19 < mathw> tomoj and donri have been trying to explain
26 Jan 2010 01:16:08 < vensa> mi djuno ledu'u makau smuni zo du'u .e zo kau vau ui
26 Jan 2010 01:19:23 < mathw> Good
26 Jan 2010 01:20:26 < vensa> xu do mo'u cilre gi'e ca djuno
26 Jan 2010 01:25:03 < vensa> .ijebo coi la donri .e la tomoj
26 Jan 2010 01:26:27 < mathw> I don't understand the question
26 Jan 2010 01:27:06 < vensa> xu do mo'u cilre gi'e ca djuno <-- yes-no you completed learning and now know
26 Jan 2010 01:27:36 < vensa> xu mi jai dicra vau uanai
26 Jan 2010 01:28:25 < donri> mathw, doctor who ;)
26 Jan 2010 01:28:30 < donri> zo'o
26 Jan 2010 01:29:27 < mathw> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 01:29:43 < mathw> vensa: ah. No. Definitely not. I know more than I did
26 Jan 2010 01:31:09 < vensa> la'e di'u zmadu xamgu noda
26 Jan 2010 01:31:51 < vensa> sa la'e di'u xamgu zmadu noda
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26 Jan 2010 01:33:38 < vensa> ta'o mi na jimpe le se xamsku be la donri
26 Jan 2010 01:37:50 < vensa> za'a lenu co'e cu masno ca le cabdei
26 Jan 2010 01:52:53 -!- lazni [n=lazni@113.22.64.186] has quit ["Leaving."]
26 Jan 2010 01:53:02 < mathw> go'i .i mi pensi lo pu'u sanga
26 Jan 2010 01:55:09 < vensa> xu do ba pu'o klama lo sanga xe ctuca
26 Jan 2010 01:57:09 < mathw> na go'i
26 Jan 2010 01:57:26 < vensa> va'i xu do ba pu'o se ctuca fo lonu sanga
26 Jan 2010 01:58:22 < vensa> paunai na go'i vau xu ue
26 Jan 2010 01:58:26 < mathw> ...not until Friday next week
26 Jan 2010 01:58:54 < mathw> I suppose {na go'i} rather excludes it from all time
26 Jan 2010 01:58:55 < vensa> oh... well I didn't state that the lesson would necessarily be today :)
26 Jan 2010 01:58:56 < mathw> which is not the case
26 Jan 2010 01:59:06 < vensa> perhaps "na'e go'i"
26 Jan 2010 01:59:09 < mathw> I'm not much good with time
26 Jan 2010 01:59:23 < vensa> don't worry. You'll get better :)
26 Jan 2010 01:59:27 < vensa> with time :)
26 Jan 2010 01:59:32 < mathw> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 01:59:34 < vensa> hehehe (double meaning)
26 Jan 2010 01:59:37 < mathw> and speaking of time
26 Jan 2010 01:59:42 < mathw> it's time for a meeting
26 Jan 2010 01:59:47 < vensa> ko zanfri
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26 Jan 2010 02:03:09 < vensa> coi daniskami .i pei
26 Jan 2010 02:03:19 < daniskami> coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 02:03:56 < vensa> mi'e le jundi po'o
26 Jan 2010 02:05:42 < vensa> xu ba'e do jundi
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26 Jan 2010 02:08:08 < vensa> fi'i se'ixru no'u la'oi gfdyg7
26 Jan 2010 02:08:27 < gfdyg7> dunno
26 Jan 2010 02:08:49 < vensa> dunno what? you don't speak Lojban?
26 Jan 2010 02:08:58 < gfdyg7> only a bit
26 Jan 2010 02:09:01 < gfdyg7> i know fi'i
26 Jan 2010 02:09:08 < gfdyg7> so je'e i guess
26 Jan 2010 02:09:16 < vensa> :)
26 Jan 2010 02:09:43 < vensa> I said: "welcome Ye the returner, AKA gfdyg7"
26 Jan 2010 02:09:49 < vensa> so "je'e" is fine :)
26 Jan 2010 02:09:58 < gfdyg7> but i have to go, just here to lurk D:
26 Jan 2010 02:10:04 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 02:10:06 < vensa> suit yourself
26 Jan 2010 02:10:11 < gfdyg7> co'o
26 Jan 2010 02:10:15 < vensa> co'o
26 Jan 2010 02:10:25 < vensa> co'o le cliva
26 Jan 2010 02:14:16 < vensa> doi la daniskami do'u ki'u ma do na spuda
26 Jan 2010 02:15:39 < daniskami> I don't answer because I don't really speak any Lojban
26 Jan 2010 02:17:58 < vensa> obviously, you comprehend Lojban - so that's a start :)
26 Jan 2010 02:18:54 < vensa> If you "don't REALLY speak Lojban" then what are you doing here? are you an imposter? or are you learning?
26 Jan 2010 02:19:13 < mathw> .u'i lo nu zanfri lo nunpe'i kei na lakne
26 Jan 2010 02:19:37 < vensa> fi'i le se'ixru no'u la'oi mathw