26 Jan 2010 02:20:13 < daniskami> I'm learning
26 Jan 2010 02:20:43 < vensa> paunai ki'u ma do na zanfri le nunpe'i .i mi mutce zanfri lo nunpe'i
26 Jan 2010 02:20:51 < vensa> daniskami: where r u from?
26 Jan 2010 02:21:08 < daniskami> vensa: Germany
26 Jan 2010 02:21:43 < vensa> mathw: u 2, right?
26 Jan 2010 02:23:09 < vensa> daniskami: how r u going about learning?
26 Jan 2010 02:23:24 < mathw> doi vensa le nunpe'i cu tolzdi
26 Jan 2010 02:23:27 < mathw> .i mi glico
26 Jan 2010 02:23:50 < vensa> u'usai doi la'oi mathw
26 Jan 2010 02:24:42 < mathw> Welcome daniskami
26 Jan 2010 02:27:02 < vensa> le nunpe'i poi puzi cfari cu pu mutce tordu uasai
26 Jan 2010 02:28:03 < vensa> za'a la daniskami na mutce jundi
26 Jan 2010 02:29:16 < daniskami> yes I know, I'm at work
26 Jan 2010 02:29:32 < vensa> to ba'u to
26 Jan 2010 02:29:38 < vensa> si toi
26 Jan 2010 02:31:14 < vensa> su'oroi le go'i cu jimpe
26 Jan 2010 02:31:56 < vensa> daniskami: what's your occupation?
26 Jan 2010 02:32:08 < mathw> ke'u le nunpe'i ti'u li pano cacra .i ri mentu li pamu
26 Jan 2010 02:32:20 < daniskami> I'm a researcher in computational linguistics
26 Jan 2010 02:33:32  * mathw is stretching his grammar knowledge
26 Jan 2010 02:33:33 < vensa> mathw: I'm not sure if "ri" doesn't point to "li pano" there... r u sure? perhaps you're safer using "le go'i"
26 Jan 2010 02:33:53 < mathw> vensa: I think you're probably right
26 Jan 2010 02:34:01 < vensa> daniskami: wow! sounds interesting! looks like this is the place for you :)
26 Jan 2010 02:35:36 < vensa> doi la'oi mathw do lifri xo lo tordu nunpe'i ca lo cabdei
26 Jan 2010 02:35:41 < daniskami> indeed. I came across Lojban through research
26 Jan 2010 02:36:43 < vensa> daniskami: I hope you would be willing to share some insights on Lojban from your POV. I hope that you will find it to be a "good" language, and perhaps use your knowledge for the benefit of the community
26 Jan 2010 02:37:16 < daniskami> it's unambiguously parsable which is definitely a good thing from my point of view
26 Jan 2010 02:37:24 < vensa> :) yeah
26 Jan 2010 02:37:27 < daniskami> but I'm more concerned with natural language
26 Jan 2010 02:38:07 < vensa> perhaps you could help take it to "the next level" - a computer program that understand Lojban or something? :)
26 Jan 2010 02:38:49 < vensa> why is that? what's your objective?
26 Jan 2010 02:39:19 < daniskami> the mathematical foundations of machine translation
26 Jan 2010 02:39:30 < mathw> doi vensa li pa
26 Jan 2010 02:40:01 -!- cmacis [n=james@uol-wireless-02-612.leeds.ac.uk] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 02:40:13 < vensa> doi la'oi mathw o'u
26 Jan 2010 02:40:19 < vensa> coi cmacis
26 Jan 2010 02:40:39 < cmacis> coi vensa coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 02:40:42 < mathw> coi
26 Jan 2010 02:40:57 < vensa> daniskami: Is that a field that stives to improved the quality of machine translations between natural languages?
26 Jan 2010 02:41:10 < vensa> *strives
26 Jan 2010 02:41:43 < mathw> daniskami: you're reminding me of why my PhD didn't work out
26 Jan 2010 02:42:10 < vensa> doi cmacis ma xruti do
26 Jan 2010 02:42:16 < daniskami> vensa: yes
26 Jan 2010 02:42:19 < daniskami> mathw: why?
26 Jan 2010 02:42:47 < vensa> daniskami: cool. perhaps you could exercise the theory that Lojban could be used as an "intermediate language"
26 Jan 2010 02:42:50 < cmacis> mi
26 Jan 2010 02:43:29 < vensa> doi cmacis u'i .i ma poi te zukte
26 Jan 2010 02:44:16 < mathw> daniskami: I'm not clever enough :)
26 Jan 2010 02:44:28 < cmacis> drop the poi and it's gendra
26 Jan 2010 02:44:48 < daniskami> mathw: ohh don't be so self-conscious
26 Jan 2010 02:44:50 < vensa> camcis: I wasn't trying to form a complete sentece
26 Jan 2010 02:44:52 < cmacis> lo du'u mi nelci la'oi #lojban
26 Jan 2010 02:45:04 < mathw> daniskami: Well that's what it felt like anyway. I'm pretty smart, but research just doesn't suit me.
26 Jan 2010 02:45:24 < mathw> I get much more satisfaction out of making things
26 Jan 2010 02:45:34 < mathw> and learning obscure constructed languages, apparently :)
26 Jan 2010 02:45:54 < mathw> vensa: I don't quite understand {poi}
26 Jan 2010 02:46:22 < vensa> ma sa'e poi ckini la'oi #lojban cu do se nelci
26 Jan 2010 02:46:23 < daniskami> vensa: that has been discussed already: http://www.clt.mq.edu.au/events/sals_sig/past/1996/961004nicholas.html
26 Jan 2010 02:47:45 < vensa> poi is a restrictive clause
26 Jan 2010 02:48:01 < vensa> e.g. le gerku poi blabi cu zvati
26 Jan 2010 02:48:31 < vensa> the dog "which is white (out of all the possible dogs that I could be discussing)" is here
26 Jan 2010 02:48:46 < vensa> sorry, is exists
26 Jan 2010 02:49:01 < vensa> sorry, is present
26 Jan 2010 02:49:03 < vensa> :)
26 Jan 2010 02:49:18 -!- gunkamanti__ [n=sarefo@213.83.32.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
26 Jan 2010 02:49:43 -!- gunkamanti__ [n=sarefo@213.83.32.130] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 02:49:52 < mathw> ah
26 Jan 2010 02:49:57 < vensa> daniskami: (not having read the article yet) aside from being discussed, has it been tried?
26 Jan 2010 02:50:08 < mathw> so it's one of those ones that attaches extra information in order to narrow down the set of things you're talking about
26 Jan 2010 02:50:15 < vensa> yep
26 Jan 2010 02:50:36 < vensa> there's pe\ne, poi\noi\voi, po'u\no'u
26 Jan 2010 02:50:45 < vensa> at least those are the ones I'm aware of
26 Jan 2010 02:50:46 < mathw> How is {le gerku poi blabi} different to {le blabi gerku}
26 Jan 2010 02:51:02 < vensa> oh, and of course along with the "pe" group there is "po" and "po'e"
26 Jan 2010 02:51:10 < daniskami> vensa: Not that I know, people use more abstract forms of representation instead of interlinguas
26 Jan 2010 02:51:49 < vensa> mathw: it is different in some ways. perhaps in the usual context it is very diff but:
26 Jan 2010 02:52:45 < vensa> first of all: blabi gerku is a tanru that could mean pretty much anything: "a white dog", "a dog that is in a white room", "a dog that likes white paint", etc
26 Jan 2010 02:53:12 < vensa> le gerku poi blabi    is specifically the dog which also satisfies the predicate "x1 blabi"
26 Jan 2010 02:53:37 < vensa> *I meant to say that in the usual context it is NOT very diff
26 Jan 2010 02:54:39 < vensa> other than that, you could use poi to implement more complicated "restrictive" clauses that are harder to imply with tanru (such as clauses that use the X2 place of the "clause predicate". e.g.:
26 Jan 2010 02:55:07 < vensa> le gerku poi zdani ke'a
26 Jan 2010 02:55:32 < mathw> yeah I figured {poi} was good for more complicated cases
26 Jan 2010 02:55:41 < vensa> meaning: the dog, which is a resident of a house
26 Jan 2010 02:56:17 < vensa> here, ke'a is used to "place" the "restricted thing" in the "restricted clause", becuz it's not in the first (default) place
26 Jan 2010 02:56:27 < mathw> okay
26 Jan 2010 02:56:30 < mathw> that's handy
26 Jan 2010 02:56:33 < vensa> yep
26 Jan 2010 02:56:42 < mathw> could you have also said {le gerku poi se zdani} in this case
26 Jan 2010 02:56:52 < vensa> it's also handy when asking "smarty-pants" people, like cmacis, a question
26 Jan 2010 02:56:52 < mathw> obviously {ke'a} is useful in the general case
26 Jan 2010 02:57:13 < mathw> what because you have to ask it very precisely if you want a useful answer? :)
26 Jan 2010 02:57:15 < vensa> because "ma" is so general, you could restrict it with "poi" to only the kind of answers that you are looking for
26 Jan 2010 02:57:32 < mathw> what's the terminator for {poi}
26 Jan 2010 02:57:37 < vensa> ko'u
26 Jan 2010 02:57:45 < vensa> sorry
26 Jan 2010 02:57:46 < mathw> excellent
26 Jan 2010 02:57:47 < vensa> ku'o
26 Jan 2010 02:57:51 < mathw> excellenter
26 Jan 2010 02:57:57 < vensa> if u say so :)
26 Jan 2010 02:58:34 < cmacis> brb
26 Jan 2010 02:58:36 < cmacis> co'o
26 Jan 2010 02:58:43 < vensa> co'o se'ixru
26 Jan 2010 02:59:28 < vensa> daniskami: too bad. well, there's your project. are you willing to take it on?
26 Jan 2010 03:00:19 < daniskami> vensa: I work at a much lower level (algorithms and formalisms)
26 Jan 2010 03:00:53 < vensa> well, perhaps it can be your "off-hours" project :)
26 Jan 2010 03:01:12 < mathw> So if I was presenting a Lojban game show for small children, I could say something like {ma poi blabi ku'o lenku}
26 Jan 2010 03:05:49 < vensa> lo snime
26 Jan 2010 03:05:52 < vensa> yes :)
26 Jan 2010 03:05:54 < mathw> exactly
26 Jan 2010 03:06:02 < mathw> that's why it's for small children, because the question's very easy :)
26 Jan 2010 03:06:07 < vensa> that was fun. got another?
26 Jan 2010 03:08:43 < mathw> ma poi barda gi'e grusi ku'o se ckape
26 Jan 2010 03:08:47 < vensa> mi nelci lenu selxarkei tu'a verba
26 Jan 2010 03:09:22 < cmacis> coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 03:09:41 < vensa> fi'i le se'ixru no'u la cmacis
26 Jan 2010 03:09:54 < vensa> mi'a kelci lo se kelci
26 Jan 2010 03:10:16 < mathw> mi sumne titnanba
26 Jan 2010 03:10:46 < mathw> \o/
26 Jan 2010 03:10:46 < vensa> xu doi la'oi mathw le barda je grusi serlaximorfe
26 Jan 2010 03:10:59 < mathw> I understood {mi'a kelci lo se kelci} without having to look up any of it
26 Jan 2010 03:11:12 < vensa> hooray....
26 Jan 2010 03:11:21 < vensa> however it did have only 1 gismu :P
26 Jan 2010 03:11:26 < mathw> yes
26 Jan 2010 03:11:27 < mathw> but still
26 Jan 2010 03:11:31 < vensa> congrats
26 Jan 2010 03:11:34 < mathw> I've only been learning a month and a bit
26 Jan 2010 03:11:40 < mathw> so the only question is
26 Jan 2010 03:11:44 < vensa> I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this one
26 Jan 2010 03:11:48 < mathw> what's a {serlaximorfe}
26 Jan 2010 03:11:56 < vensa> I used makfa for that one...
26 Jan 2010 03:12:02 < vensa> it's apparently a shark
26 Jan 2010 03:12:06 < vensa> but forget it
26 Jan 2010 03:12:16 < vensa> I was thinking "great WHITE shark"
26 Jan 2010 03:12:19 < vensa> silly me
26 Jan 2010 03:12:27 < mathw> I was thinking of {lo xanto}
26 Jan 2010 03:12:35 < vensa> I don't know what is "big and grey and endangered??"
26 Jan 2010 03:12:48 < mathw> It wasn't a very good question really
26 Jan 2010 03:12:53 < vensa> was that it ho?
26 Jan 2010 03:12:56 < vensa> *tho
26 Jan 2010 03:13:05 < mathw> that was the question
26 Jan 2010 03:13:08 < vensa> hmmm
26 Jan 2010 03:13:13 < vensa> so you'll have to clue me in
26 Jan 2010 03:13:15 < mathw> some sharks would be an acceptable answer
26 Jan 2010 03:13:20 < mathw> so would some kinds of whale
26 Jan 2010 03:13:24 < mathw> but I was thinking of elephants
26 Jan 2010 03:13:28 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 03:13:48 < vensa> I didn't realize they have been added to the "endangered species list"...
26 Jan 2010 03:13:54 < mathw> I believe they are
26 Jan 2010 03:13:56 < mathw> both kinds
26 Jan 2010 03:14:01 < Sonja> deliciously endangered
26 Jan 2010 03:14:03 < mathw> ivory poachers
26 Jan 2010 03:14:09 < timonato1> oh, you playing the 20 questions game?
26 Jan 2010 03:14:14 < vensa> I was thinking more along the lines of "pandas" and such
26 Jan 2010 03:14:19 < mathw> No, we were exercising my use of {poi}
26 Jan 2010 03:14:31 < vensa> it's a game mathw invented
26 Jan 2010 03:14:52 < vensa> it has the form: "ma poi co'e cu co'e"
26 Jan 2010 03:15:01 < vensa> it's fun
26 Jan 2010 03:15:15 < mathw> The trouble is most of the questions have multiple answers
26 Jan 2010 03:15:22 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 03:15:28 < mathw> But maybe that's okay
26 Jan 2010 03:15:36 < vensa> but a good question will have only one obvious answer
26 Jan 2010 03:15:36 < mathw> Like
26 Jan 2010 03:16:10 < mathw> ma poi kukte cu bunre
26 Jan 2010 03:16:34 < vensa> lo cakla
26 Jan 2010 03:16:36 < vensa> u'i
26 Jan 2010 03:16:53 < mathw> that's the obvious answer
26 Jan 2010 03:16:58 < vensa> sure is
26 Jan 2010 03:17:04 < vensa> good one
26 Jan 2010 03:17:17 < mathw> well we all like lo cakla
26 Jan 2010 03:17:39 < timonato1> ma poi mamta cu plana
26 Jan 2010 03:18:01 < vensa> le mamta be la timonator
26 Jan 2010 03:18:02 < vensa> u'i
26 Jan 2010 03:18:24 < mathw> .ui lonu mi sanga ti'u li pare cacra
26 Jan 2010 03:19:01 < vensa> there's a freakin lot of endagered species...: http://www.earthsendangered.com/list.asp
26 Jan 2010 03:19:12 < timonato1> uo snap
26 Jan 2010 03:19:28 < mathw> la mamta.gunse
26 Jan 2010 03:20:14 < vensa> mathw: nice answer. but I doubt timos was asking an authentic question
26 Jan 2010 03:20:27 < vensa> mathw: I thought you said you didnt have a lesson today
26 Jan 2010 03:22:27 < Sonja> is there a lojban word for wet season and dry season?
26 Jan 2010 03:22:34 < Sonja> for climates where these are the two main seasons?
26 Jan 2010 03:22:39 < vensa> your elephant is not on the TOP10: http://www.extravalue.com/pm.shtml
26 Jan 2010 03:23:09 < vensa> Sonja: the L4B has a paragraph on that, proposing lujvo. perhaps there are accepted ones
26 Jan 2010 03:23:20 < Sonja> so no root words
26 Jan 2010 03:23:27 < vensa> nah
26 Jan 2010 03:23:36 < vensa> root words are too precious
26 Jan 2010 03:24:00 < vensa> you could combine "dry" and "season" quite simply
26 Jan 2010 03:24:12 < vensa> season is "citsi"
26 Jan 2010 03:24:27 < Sonja> i'm just confused about the part where lojban claims to be culturally neutral, but root words often reflect european or american concepts but the equivalent concepts in other parts of the world are left to compound words
26 Jan 2010 03:24:38 < Sonja> is l4b the main lojban discussion list?
26 Jan 2010 03:24:49 < vensa> L4B is the Lojban 4 Beginners course
26 Jan 2010 03:25:19 < Sonja> how do new compound words get added to the online dictionaries and/or makfa bot?
26 Jan 2010 03:25:29 < Sonja> i.e. become more or less standardized
26 Jan 2010 03:25:55 < vensa> Sonja: I believe the makers of Lojban took into consideration the *majority* of the world's population. just like the letters of the gismu's have been chosen based on their respective words in the 6 majorly spoken languages
26 Jan 2010 03:25:57 < mathw> vensa: not a lesson, a rehearsal with the work band
26 Jan 2010 03:26:10 < Sonja> is there a list somewehre of newer root words that were created? i heard that some people are proposing one for "Swedish"
26 Jan 2010 03:26:39 < vensa> Sonja: you can enter lujvo in "jbovlaste" I think (I haven't done it myselft yet). there's some kind of rating mechanism I believe
26 Jan 2010 03:26:40 < Sonja> well the winter/summer/spring/fall model only works in temperate climates. most of the world actually lives in other climates.
26 Jan 2010 03:27:08 < Sonja> oh you can vote on new proposed compound words?
26 Jan 2010 03:27:17 < mathw> yup
26 Jan 2010 03:27:18 < vensa> Sonja: Are you sure? what kind of climate is china?
26 Jan 2010 03:27:30 < Sonja> china spans several climates i thnk
26 Jan 2010 03:27:33 < mathw> china's got various climate zones
26 Jan 2010 03:27:36 < vensa> Sonja: as for "new" gismu - there shouldn't be that many
26 Jan 2010 03:27:36 < mathw> it's quite large
26 Jan 2010 03:27:55 < Sonja> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperateness
26 Jan 2010 03:28:00 < vensa> well, I'm not an meteoroligist
26 Jan 2010 03:28:09 < mathw> I do sometimes think it's a shame that there are gismu for any countries at all, because then everyone who doesn't have a gismu wants one too
26 Jan 2010 03:28:30 < Sonja> that is true
26 Jan 2010 03:28:38 < Sonja> and again it comes back to Lojban's cultural neutrality thing
26 Jan 2010 03:28:50 < mathw> mmm
26 Jan 2010 03:28:55 < Sonja> i thnk the claim of cultural neutrality should be removed, because Lojban clearly has cultural bias
26 Jan 2010 03:28:56 < vensa> mathw: you're right. there is some discrimination. but I believe the "largest population" countries have been covered
26 Jan 2010 03:29:05 < mathw> vensa: except that English gets {glico}
26 Jan 2010 03:29:07 < Sonja> and there's nothing wrong with that.
26 Jan 2010 03:29:12 < mathw> and England is *tiny*, globally speaking
26 Jan 2010 03:29:21 < mathw> we're only big in our lingering historical legacy
26 Jan 2010 03:29:32 < mathw> and that we have nuclear weapons
26 Jan 2010 03:29:39 < Sonja> hehe
26 Jan 2010 03:29:44 < Sonja> Pakistan have nukes too
26 Jan 2010 03:29:45 < vensa> I'm sure there was proper thinking put into which nations should have gismu
26 Jan 2010 03:29:46 < mathw> which is not a good way to be big
26 Jan 2010 03:29:47 < Sonja> do they have a root word?
26 Jan 2010 03:29:52 < vensa> yes!
26 Jan 2010 03:29:53 < mathw> heh
26 Jan 2010 03:30:06 < Sonja> kisto
26 Jan 2010 03:30:09 < vensa> kisto
26 Jan 2010 03:30:09 < Sonja> cute
26 Jan 2010 03:30:10 < mathw> criteria for gismu: you're either in the top #n population rank, or you have nuclear weapons
26 Jan 2010 03:30:13 < Sonja> haha
26 Jan 2010 03:30:15 < vensa> lol
26 Jan 2010 03:30:24 < mathw> becuase, you know, we wouldn't want to piss you off
26 Jan 2010 03:30:35 < vensa> Israel doesn't REALLY have a gismu
26 Jan 2010 03:30:50 < mathw> .u'isai
26 Jan 2010 03:30:50 < Sonja> not selbro ?
26 Jan 2010 03:30:50 < vensa> there's "xebro" but that means "Jewish" AND "Israel"
26 Jan 2010 03:31:00 < vensa> wish is not necessarily the same
26 Jan 2010 03:31:06 < vensa> the are Arab-Israelis
26 Jan 2010 03:31:13 < mathw> is that in the more traditional sense of Israel, rather than the modern country
26 Jan 2010 03:31:14 < vensa> *there
26 Jan 2010 03:31:21 < vensa> probably
26 Jan 2010 03:31:49 < nonporous1> i'm arab, and i very much appreciate the tiny slice of glory we get in the gismu
26 Jan 2010 03:32:05 < Sonja> what country do you live in nonporous1?
26 Jan 2010 03:32:16 < nonporous1> i'm in USA
26 Jan 2010 03:32:22 < vensa> sadjo is SaudiArabian
26 Jan 2010 03:32:29 <@Broca> xrabo, rakso, misro, morko, sadjo, and I've probably forgot a few.
26 Jan 2010 03:32:30 < vensa> theres also misro for egypt
26 Jan 2010 03:32:45 < nonporous1> but i'm arab and speak fluent arabic, it definitely helps me learn gismu
26 Jan 2010 03:32:59 < Sonja> can you thnk of some root words that look almost the same as the arabic word?
26 Jan 2010 03:33:05 < mathw> You have two of the source languages, yes that would be helpful
26 Jan 2010 03:33:08 <@Broca> jerxo = Algerian
26 Jan 2010 03:33:24 < vensa> TWO?
26 Jan 2010 03:33:37 < nonporous1> i've only been learning for a few days, so i know a handful of gismu right now
26 Jan 2010 03:33:41 < Sonja> is there a convenient list of all culture/country/language names?
26 Jan 2010 03:33:42 < Sonja> or i have to search them one by one
26 Jan 2010 03:33:45 < vensa> english, spanish, chinese, arabic, what';s the others?
26 Jan 2010 03:33:45 <@Broca> nonporous1: that's interesting. I assumed that the algorithm put way too much weight on the vowels from Arabic, while the consonants are much more important.
26 Jan 2010 03:33:57 < Sonja> i thought hindi ?
26 Jan 2010 03:34:14 < vensa> I dont think hindi made it
26 Jan 2010 03:34:20 < Sonja> most of the arabic consonants don't exist in lojban
26 Jan 2010 03:34:21 <@Broca> Chinese, English, Spanish, Hindi, Russian, Arabic
26 Jan 2010 03:34:26 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 03:34:31 < vensa> then it did
26 Jan 2010 03:34:31 < Sonja> incidentally those are the lanugages of the UN minus hindi
26 Jan 2010 03:34:35 < Sonja> and plus french
26 Jan 2010 03:34:42 < nonporous1> but for example when i learned citka, i learned it immediately because the first part sounds like "eat" and the last parts sounds like "akal"
26 Jan 2010 03:35:00 < vensa> "akal" is hebrew too :)
26 Jan 2010 03:35:04 < nonporous1> it just adds to the pieces of the words that you can remember
26 Jan 2010 03:35:07 < Sonja> i still think it's weird that all root words ar exactry 5 letters long
26 Jan 2010 03:35:09 < nonporous1> oh cool
26 Jan 2010 03:35:22 < vensa> Sonja: that's the beauty of it
26 Jan 2010 03:35:23 < Sonja> you don't get as much variety as in other languages where some words are short and some long, for the added flavour that gives
26 Jan 2010 03:35:39 < vensa> Sonja: 1300 "root"
26 Jan 2010 03:35:43 <@Broca> Sonja: said the lady with the 5-letter name :-)
26 Jan 2010 03:35:43 < vensa> is not enough?>
26 Jan 2010 03:35:54 < Sonja> hehe
26 Jan 2010 03:36:06 < nonporous1> chinese, english, hindi, russian, spanish, arabic
26 Jan 2010 03:36:09 < nonporous1> is the list i saw
26 Jan 2010 03:36:20 < Sonja> it's bizarre to add glottal stops in names
26 Jan 2010 03:36:23 < Sonja> la .sonias.
26 Jan 2010 03:36:36 < vensa> you don't need the first "."
26 Jan 2010 03:36:44 < Sonja> okay
26 Jan 2010 03:36:51 < vensa> only in the "dotside" POV
26 Jan 2010 03:36:52 < nonporous1> also using "ma" to ask a question is almost completely like arabic interrogatives
26 Jan 2010 03:37:02 < nonporous1> and glottal stop is an actual letter in arabic
26 Jan 2010 03:37:03 < Sonja> la sonias. xalbo
26 Jan 2010 03:37:04 < vensa> "ma" is "what" in hebrew :)
26 Jan 2010 03:37:36 < nonporous1> it's amazing how similar arabic is to hebrew
26 Jan 2010 03:37:48 < Sonja> yeah
26 Jan 2010 03:37:52 < Sonja> have you guys seen Palisra ?
26 Jan 2010 03:37:53 < vensa> umm... not that amazing considering the geographical proximity :)
26 Jan 2010 03:37:56 < Sonja> gogle it. it's a neat conlang
26 Jan 2010 03:38:09 < vensa> I'm satisfied with Lojban at the moment
26 Jan 2010 03:38:15 < vensa> what's Palisra have that we don't?
26 Jan 2010 03:38:24 < nonporous1> it's amusing* rather
26 Jan 2010 03:38:37 < Sonja> it's a mishmash of hebrew and arabic cultures
26 Jan 2010 03:38:51 < Sonja> palestine and israel reimagined as a combined and shared culture
26 Jan 2010 03:38:56 < vensa> it's amusing how some arabic words have been totally accepted into the hebrew slang
26 Jan 2010 03:39:06 < nonporous1> really?
26 Jan 2010 03:39:08 < vensa> Sonja: cool!
26 Jan 2010 03:39:13 < vensa> might help the peace process
26 Jan 2010 03:39:21 < vensa> if everyone on both sides learned it :)
26 Jan 2010 03:39:22 < Sonja> peace through nerdy conlangs!
26 Jan 2010 03:39:26 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 03:39:43 < Sonja> esperanto speakers in palestine and israel have been having peace and collaboration for a long time
26 Jan 2010 03:40:00 < vensa> I'm sure several english speakers have too
26 Jan 2010 03:40:04 < nonporous1> haha
26 Jan 2010 03:40:38 < Sonja> yup
26 Jan 2010 03:40:49 < nonporous1> they merged headgears into a "kopiya"
26 Jan 2010 03:41:06 < cmacis> Satisfies the requirements for both?
26 Jan 2010 03:41:31 < vensa> is that a "kipa" "kafia"?
26 Jan 2010 03:41:45 < nonporous1> http://www.palisra.com/ the first image in the gallery
26 Jan 2010 03:42:06 < nonporous1> kuffiya yarmulke it says
26 Jan 2010 03:42:15 < vensa> yammaca is "kipa"
26 Jan 2010 03:42:21 < vensa> yeah. neat
26 Jan 2010 03:42:21 < nonporous1> ah
26 Jan 2010 03:43:22 < Sonja> I speak Esperanto. = mi pilno la pa'arbau.    is that correct?
26 Jan 2010 03:43:44 < cmacis> mi se bangu la sprantos
26 Jan 2010 03:44:10 < vensa> cmacis: there is a lujvo
26 Jan 2010 03:44:21 < cmacis> mi se bangu la pa'arbau
26 Jan 2010 03:44:35 < cmacis> I wouldn't say I pilno a language
26 Jan 2010 03:44:36 < vensa> pacna bangu: hope language :)
26 Jan 2010 03:45:47 < Sonja> sprantos?
26 Jan 2010 03:46:05 < vensa> that would be a lojbanization of the name as is
26 Jan 2010 03:46:13 < Sonja> why not use the native lojban compound word?
26 Jan 2010 03:46:16 < Sonja> pa'arbaŭ
26 Jan 2010 03:46:21 < Sonja> pa'arbau sorry
26 Jan 2010 03:46:25 < vensa> he did eventually
26 Jan 2010 03:46:27 < nonporous1> why doesn't pilno work on a language?
26 Jan 2010 03:46:28 < Sonja> ahh ok
26 Jan 2010 03:46:57 < Sonja> the compound word baupli comes from bangu and pilno
26 Jan 2010 03:47:10 < vensa> x2 of pilno is [tool, apparatus, machine, agent, acting entity, material]
26 Jan 2010 03:47:45 < vensa> Sonja: sure, but if you wanna keep it simple - use a gismu
26 Jan 2010 03:47:53 < nonporous1> oh, a more concrete tool?
26 Jan 2010 03:48:16 < zariuq> mi pu'hi cusku fo pa'arbau ?
26 Jan 2010 03:48:38 < zariuq> pu'i* >_>; how's that?
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26 Jan 2010 03:49:37 < vensa> a language is not really a "medium"
26 Jan 2010 03:49:47 < zariuq> oh =o, oops ^^;
26 Jan 2010 03:49:50 < vensa> that's more like "paper" or "video"
26 Jan 2010 03:50:28 < vensa> nonporous: yes
26 Jan 2010 03:50:52 < vensa> you "could" use it, but it would be like saying: "I make idea"
26 Jan 2010 03:51:04 < mathw> mi pu'i cusku bau la pa'arbau
26 Jan 2010 03:51:07 < nonporous1> okay i see
26 Jan 2010 03:51:13 < mathw> I would think
26 Jan 2010 03:51:31 < vensa> mathw: sure. but isn't that unnecassarily more complex that "mi se bangu"?
26 Jan 2010 03:51:50 < vensa> there is a gismu just waiting for u to use it. no lujvo. no modal.
26 Jan 2010 03:51:53 < mathw> vensa: yes, it is
26 Jan 2010 03:51:58 < Sonja> how does one propose new compound words?
26 Jan 2010 03:52:00 < mathw> I just didn't bother looking for a gismu :)
26 Jan 2010 03:52:18 < vensa> well now you know :)
26 Jan 2010 03:52:32 < mathw> plus I felt the urge to use {bau} again
26 Jan 2010 03:52:44 < vensa> Sonja: I haven't done it but I believe at http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/
26 Jan 2010 03:52:57 < vensa> mathw: who am I to try to stop your unstoppable urges
26 Jan 2010 03:56:25 < mathw> You're something I don't know how to express in Lojban: a person calling themselves vensa
26 Jan 2010 03:56:42 <@Broca> Oh no! Lojban will be tokiponified!
26 Jan 2010 03:56:54 < vensa> mathw: that's my real name
26 Jan 2010 03:57:08 < Sonja> :)
26 Jan 2010 03:57:18 < mathw> So other people also call you vensa, that doesn't mean what I said was untrue :)
26 Jan 2010 03:57:31 < vensa> "aviv" means "vensa" in hebrew
26 Jan 2010 03:57:46 < mathw> convenient
26 Jan 2010 03:57:58 < vensa> I don't know what you were trying to say so I wouldn't know if it's true
26 Jan 2010 03:57:58 < mathw> I think translating my name literally into Lojban would end up with a nasty lujvo
26 Jan 2010 03:58:08 < vensa> Mathew?
26 Jan 2010 03:58:38 < mathw> mmm
26 Jan 2010 03:58:40 < mathw> 'gift of god'
26 Jan 2010 03:58:42 < mathw> apparently
26 Jan 2010 03:58:51 < vensa> is that the meaning of Mathew?
26 Jan 2010 03:58:55 < mathw> so I'm told
26 Jan 2010 03:59:00 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 03:59:07 <@Broca> So, Matthew and Theodore is essentially the same name?
26 Jan 2010 03:59:20 < vensa> in hebrew you would be "Nethanel"
26 Jan 2010 03:59:26 < vensa> (Nathan)
26 Jan 2010 03:59:31 < mathw> there seem to be a lot of names which mean something like that
26 Jan 2010 03:59:56 < mathw> shows a terrible lack of imagination on the part of our ancestors
26 Jan 2010 04:00:00 < vensa> probably because "children" are widely perceived as "god's gift" :)
26 Jan 2010 04:00:11 < mathw> vensa: they are until they start crying
26 Jan 2010 04:00:16 < vensa> lol
26 Jan 2010 04:00:27 < mathw> but now is the time for singing
26 Jan 2010 04:00:35 < vensa> ko zanfri
26 Jan 2010 04:00:38 < mathw> co'o
26 Jan 2010 04:00:56 < vensa> co'o la'oi mathw
26 Jan 2010 04:01:03 < vensa> oh right
26 Jan 2010 04:01:08 < vensa> Matitiahu
26 Jan 2010 04:01:10 < vensa> is god'
26 Jan 2010 04:01:15 < vensa> s gift in hebrew too!
26 Jan 2010 04:01:25 < vensa> Matat Hael -> Gift of God
26 Jan 2010 04:01:45 < vensa> you're name is basically jewish :P
26 Jan 2010 04:09:24 < Sonja> is there a bot that will tell you the best compound to use?
26 Jan 2010 04:09:32 < Sonja> according to the algorithm thingy
26 Jan 2010 04:09:58 < vensa> not to my knowledge but I'm quite a newbie
26 Jan 2010 04:10:04 < vensa> ask Broca
26 Jan 2010 04:10:38 < vensa> I think that most times it's rather apparent
26 Jan 2010 04:10:46 < vensa> which rafsi are best to use
26 Jan 2010 04:11:09 < vensa> obviously "brevity" is the most important factor
26 Jan 2010 04:13:07 < vensa> the question of "wether" or not to eliminate certain "glue words" or "seltau" alltogether, is something that a bot can't answer - it has to do with wether or not the lujvo could hypothetocally have another (more common) meaning
26 Jan 2010 04:13:25 <@Broca> Sonja: makfa may be able to do that for you, but I don't know how.
26 Jan 2010 04:13:40 <@Broca> I just use a command-line tool called “jvocuhadju”, but I'm a Unix weenie.
26 Jan 2010 04:14:34 < Sonja> mi se bangu la xaubau.
26 Jan 2010 04:14:52 < Sonja> does that seem like a valid compound?
26 Jan 2010 04:15:07 < vensa> you speak the "good language"??
26 Jan 2010 04:15:17 < Sonja> i didn't use a metaphor
26 Jan 2010 04:15:20 < Sonja> i used a compound
26 Jan 2010 04:15:27 < vensa> it's not a good compund because there is no consonant cluster
26 Jan 2010 04:15:34 < Sonja> ohh
26 Jan 2010 04:15:34 <@Broca> What vensa said.
26 Jan 2010 04:15:50 < vensa> there has to be a cluster in the first five letters
26 Jan 2010 04:15:57 < Sonja> xagbau then
26 Jan 2010 04:16:03 < vensa> probably
26 Jan 2010 04:16:08 < vensa> but what does it mean??
26 Jan 2010 04:16:24 < Sonja> la tokiponas
26 Jan 2010 04:16:29 < vensa> why?
26 Jan 2010 04:16:45 < vensa> is that the meaning of "tokiponas" in "tokiponas"?
26 Jan 2010 04:16:57 < Sonja> good language
26 Jan 2010 04:17:11 <@Broca> Couldn't it also be sampu+bangu?
26 Jan 2010 04:17:23 <@Broca> Since there is no distinction between good and simple in Toki Pona ...
26 Jan 2010 04:17:29 < Sonja> yes could also be that
26 Jan 2010 04:17:43 < vensa> that lujvo would probably only be understood to speakers of tokiponas. which makes it pretty useless
26 Jan 2010 04:18:09 < Sonja> is pa'arbau only understood by speakers of esperanto?
26 Jan 2010 04:18:12 < vensa> on the other hand, most lojbanistans would find it dangerously disturbing
26 Jan 2010 04:18:23 < Sonja> danger?
26 Jan 2010 04:18:35 < vensa> I don't know. I have a common knowledge that esperanto means "hope language"
26 Jan 2010 04:18:53 < vensa> I think you would be better off saying "la tokiponas"
26 Jan 2010 04:19:06 < vensa> since it has the same pronounciation worldwide anyway
26 Jan 2010 04:19:24 < Sonja> why not esperantos. under the same grounds?
26 Jan 2010 04:19:32 < vensa> perhaps to your earlier point, it would also be better to just use "la sprantos"
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26 Jan 2010 04:19:54 < Sonja> la sprantos
26 Jan 2010 04:19:56 < vensa> Broca: what do you reckon?
26 Jan 2010 04:20:36 < Sonja> does it take aw hile for my registering my username on lojban.org to send me the email?
26 Jan 2010 04:20:46 < vensa> the upside to using the lujvo is that the listener understands that "it" is a language
26 Jan 2010 04:20:57 < vensa> as for understanding "which" language...
26 Jan 2010 04:21:17 < vensa> so I guess there would be an upside to each one of the uses, depending on context
26 Jan 2010 04:21:20 < Sonja> is there a root word meaning something like holistic, looking at the big picture, etc
26 Jan 2010 04:21:44 < vensa> if you were at a "language convention" you should probably use "la sprantos" because it's apparent from context that you are speaking of a languiage
26 Jan 2010 04:22:02 < Sonja> the -bau in pa'arbau also shows language, no?
26 Jan 2010 04:22:18 < vensa> if you want to bring it up out of context and rely on the fact that its a language then "pa'arbau"
26 Jan 2010 04:22:28 < vensa> Sonja: exactly what I'm saying
26 Jan 2010 04:22:47 < Sonja> why did many of the vowels of Esperanto get dropped in la sprantos ?
26 Jan 2010 04:23:05 < vensa> that's just one lojbanization
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26 Jan 2010 04:23:16 < vensa> such lojbanizations are highly dependant on pronounciation
26 Jan 2010 04:23:24 <@Broca> vensa: I think “la tokiponas” would be more widely understood, but there is little harm in coining a lujvo and trying to get people to use it.
26 Jan 2010 04:23:33 < vensa> different ppl pronounce diff names differently
26 Jan 2010 04:23:49 < Sonja> without knowing the ins and outs of lojban culture and conventions, i'd be in favour of using the compound, since it standardizes the name of the esperanto language in lojban rather that leaving it up to various phonetic conversions of the loanword
26 Jan 2010 04:24:31 < vensa> Broca: Isn't that "cluttering" the lujvo space? perhaps there is a better candidate for "sampu bangu". you could argue for many languages: morse code? simplified english?
26 Jan 2010 04:24:34 < Sonja> so the decision to use a loanword versus a compound word is basically "which one would be more easily understood?"
26 Jan 2010 04:25:08 < vensa> Sonja: even with deiff pronounciations. you can still "get" what the speaker intends
26 Jan 2010 04:25:09 <@Broca> The worst thing that could happen is that the form “xagbau” would no longer be available to other concept. I could think of “euphemism” or “euphemistic language”.
26 Jan 2010 04:25:31 < Sonja> is there a root word meaning something like holistic, looking at the big picture, etc
26 Jan 2010 04:25:35 < vensa> Broca: so that's bad
26 Jan 2010 04:25:41 < vensa> Sonja: I doubt it
26 Jan 2010 04:25:55 < vensa> you could try joining "big picture idea" but that's probably an idiom
26 Jan 2010 04:26:01 < Sonja> lojban excels at details but lacks concepts for the big picture :)
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26 Jan 2010 04:26:05 < vensa> de'a jundi
26 Jan 2010 04:26:07 <@Broca> Sonja: mulno? prane?
26 Jan 2010 04:26:08 < Sonja> yes it's an english idiom
26 Jan 2010 04:26:10 <@Broca> munje?
26 Jan 2010 04:26:54 < vensa> culno?
26 Jan 2010 04:27:00 < Sonja> in Esperanto for "to see the big picture" we say "larĝe vidi la aferojn", to see matters in a wide scope
26 Jan 2010 04:27:07 < vensa> de'a jundi
26 Jan 2010 04:27:53 < Sonja> or broad i guess
26 Jan 2010 04:28:41 < Sonja> ganra is only physical broadness
26 Jan 2010 04:30:00 <@Broca> Maybe it is naltcila/toltcila you need?
26 Jan 2010 04:30:40 < Sonja> i'm not finding those in makfa-bot
26 Jan 2010 04:30:48 <@Broca> (Non-detail/un-detail)
26 Jan 2010 04:31:05 < Sonja> that gives it a negative spin :)
26 Jan 2010 04:31:29 < timonato1> are we talking about quantum mechanics again?
26 Jan 2010 04:32:04 < Sonja> no, toki pona
26 Jan 2010 04:32:48 < Sonja> culno sanji
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26 Jan 2010 04:34:46 < Sonja> lojban excels at detail-level analysis. toki pona excels at big-picture holistic analysis. as tools, they can work together for ultimate global domination.
26 Jan 2010 04:35:40 <@Broca> Holistic analysis? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
26 Jan 2010 04:36:23 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 04:36:52 < vensa> lojban can be as detailed or broad as you want it to be
26 Jan 2010 04:36:55 < Sonja> To examine methodically by separating into parts and studying their interrelations.
26 Jan 2010 04:36:58 < Sonja> hmm you're right
26 Jan 2010 04:37:19 < vensa> that's why it's the Best language :)
26 Jan 2010 04:37:22 < Sonja> replace analysis with observing
26 Jan 2010 04:37:27 < Sonja> best evar!
26 Jan 2010 04:38:16 <@Broca> The opposite of analysis is synthesis.
26 Jan 2010 04:38:34 < Sonja> thanks
26 Jan 2010 04:38:48 < Sonja> lojban = analysis; toki pona = synthesis
26 Jan 2010 04:38:59 < donri> wow, really, those are opposites?
26 Jan 2010 04:39:26 < donri> oh i guess i can see it in some senses, with the above definition for analysis
26 Jan 2010 04:39:37 < Sonja> The combining of separate elements or substances to form a coherent whole.
26 Jan 2010 04:39:45 < Sonja> The combination of thesis and antithesis in the Hegelian dialectical process whereby a new and higher level of truth is produced.
26 Jan 2010 04:39:57 < donri> by that definition, toki pona is the culmination of complexity. :D
26 Jan 2010 04:40:30 < Sonja> nah, just an enlightened hiher level of truth :)
26 Jan 2010 04:40:42 < vensa> and very humble :P
26 Jan 2010 04:40:45 < Sonja> :P
26 Jan 2010 04:40:57 < Sonja> i'm going by the definition of synthesis
26 Jan 2010 04:41:03 < Sonja> which you suggested as a word :)
26 Jan 2010 04:41:16 < vensa> not me
26 Jan 2010 04:41:24 < Sonja> braca
26 Jan 2010 04:41:26 < Sonja> broca
26 Jan 2010 04:41:32 < Sonja> sorry
26 Jan 2010 04:41:35 < donri> i find toki pona interesting to learn and use, relying completely on generalisations
26 Jan 2010 04:41:49 < donri> it's a useful tool for realising how much we generalise
26 Jan 2010 04:42:05 < Sonja> lojban generalizes too of course
26 Jan 2010 04:42:14 < donri> of course
26 Jan 2010 04:42:31 < Sonja> i guess i should go to work now
26 Jan 2010 04:42:34 < Sonja> it's almost 8 a.m.
26 Jan 2010 04:42:48 <@Broca> Sonja: not living the simple life, eh? ;-P
26 Jan 2010 04:43:04 < Sonja> maybe kampu.... generalizing language
26 Jan 2010 04:43:13 < Sonja> Broca going to work is not simple?
26 Jan 2010 04:43:28 < vensa> ma tcika lonu mi'o co'a tavla fo la lojban
26 Jan 2010 04:43:36 <@Broca> Depends on the job, I guess.
26 Jan 2010 04:43:47 < Sonja> i'm a security analyst at symantec
26 Jan 2010 04:43:54 <@Broca> That is... non-simple.
26 Jan 2010 04:43:57 <@Broca> :-P
26 Jan 2010 04:43:59 < Sonja> probably :)
26 Jan 2010 04:44:24 < vensa> hacking is simple - securing is hard
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26 Jan 2010 04:45:01 < vensa> coi aluink
26 Jan 2010 04:47:51 -!- Nuky [n=Nuky@ti0054a380-dhcp0918.bb.online.no] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 04:49:10 < vensa> coi la'oi Nuky
26 Jan 2010 04:49:19 < vensa> coi nukis
26 Jan 2010 04:51:59 < Nuky> coi
26 Jan 2010 04:52:22 < vensa> ma nuzba
26 Jan 2010 04:52:42 < vensa> xu do zvati le briju
26 Jan 2010 04:52:47 < Nuky> Home, finally. =P
26 Jan 2010 04:52:59 < Nuky> The wut and the wat?
26 Jan 2010 04:53:09 < Nuky> =P
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26 Jan 2010 04:53:26 < vensa> you answered both questions:
26 Jan 2010 04:53:35 < vensa> A: what's new. B: are you at the office
26 Jan 2010 04:53:37 < vensa> :)
26 Jan 2010 04:54:42 < vensa> how goes the Lojban learning?
26 Jan 2010 04:55:15 < Nuky> Well
26 Jan 2010 04:55:36 < vensa> good. what chapter are you at?
26 Jan 2010 04:55:39 < Nuky> I DO go to school, which is my current priority. =P
26 Jan 2010 04:55:47 < vensa> too bad :P
26 Jan 2010 04:55:53 < Nuky> And, 3 or 4.
26 Jan 2010 04:56:03 < vensa> nice
26 Jan 2010 04:59:27 < Nuky> ma mo ma
26 Jan 2010 04:59:28 < Nuky> :V
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26 Jan 2010 05:19:43 < vensa> di'a jundi
26 Jan 2010 05:20:51 < vensa> ma djica lonu se bangu le lojbau
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26 Jan 2010 05:21:32 < vensa> coi rprije
26 Jan 2010 05:22:06 < rprije> coi vensas
26 Jan 2010 05:22:22 < vensa> xu do cnino
26 Jan 2010 05:23:47 < rprije> go'i
26 Jan 2010 05:23:56 < vensa> fi'i
26 Jan 2010 05:24:04 < rprije> (I can't remember how to say slightly)
26 Jan 2010 05:24:09 < vensa> milxe
26 Jan 2010 05:24:29 < rprije> I'm looking more for a tense. like je'a
26 Jan 2010 05:24:51 < rprije> like ru'e but for selbri
26 Jan 2010 05:25:03 < vensa> hmmm.... not sure I know that one
26 Jan 2010 05:25:12 < vensa> Broca?
26 Jan 2010 05:25:25 <@Broca> What?
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26 Jan 2010 05:25:43 < vensa> do you know of a "tense" word for "slightly"?
26 Jan 2010 05:26:09 <@Broca> No
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26 Jan 2010 05:26:15 <@Broca> Maybe you want “no'e”?
26 Jan 2010 05:26:35 < rprije> I guess that'd do..
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26 Jan 2010 05:26:57 < vensa> rprije: that wouild mean that you are "indifferent" to the claim of being new.
26 Jan 2010 05:27:05 < vensa> i.e. neither new nor not new
26 Jan 2010 05:27:59 < rprije> mi puzico'u tadni lo ponban
26 Jan 2010 05:28:17 < rprije> Yeah, not quite what I was after but I guess it's close enough
26 Jan 2010 05:28:47 < vensa> you just "stopped" learning japanese?
26 Jan 2010 05:28:51 < vensa> why did you "stop"?
26 Jan 2010 05:29:23 < rprije> co'u, not mo'u. I'm just done for the night
26 Jan 2010 05:29:32 < vensa> I would suggest "de'a"
26 Jan 2010 05:29:51 < vensa> co'u would mean you've stopped and don't intend to continue, even though you haven't "finished"
26 Jan 2010 05:30:06 < rprije> oh. I completely misunderstood that one then :)
26 Jan 2010 05:30:10 < vensa> mo'u is "finished" although you could probably never really "finish" learning a language
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26 Jan 2010 05:30:15 < rprije> de'a. I'll add that to my vocab list, thanks :)
26 Jan 2010 05:30:19 < vensa> np
26 Jan 2010 05:30:26 < vensa> I see you like "tense" words :)
26 Jan 2010 05:31:22 < vensa> it's particularly useful for the phrase: "de'a jundi" which means something like "brb" or "bbl"
26 Jan 2010 05:32:00 < rprije> na go'i .i mi troci lenu mi rarna tavli
26 Jan 2010 05:33:07 < rprije> .ua di'u la'e cinri
26 Jan 2010 05:34:05 < rprije> Hmm... di'u la'e probably doesn't work well here thanks to the asynchronous manner of communication...
26 Jan 2010 05:34:22 < vensa> what are you trying to say?
26 Jan 2010 05:34:39 < rprije> Just that what you said about de'a jundi is interesting
26 Jan 2010 05:34:47 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 05:34:53 < vensa> la'e di'u cinri seems ok
26 Jan 2010 05:35:06 < vensa> but I'm not good with la'e
26 Jan 2010 05:35:24 < rprije> ui
26 Jan 2010 05:35:53 < vensa> ma temci lenu do cilre fi la lojban
26 Jan 2010 05:36:13 < mathw> coi
26 Jan 2010 05:36:32 < vensa> fi'i cevni se dunda
26 Jan 2010 05:37:42 < vensa> Did you catch my saying that your name is essentially derived from hebrew?
26 Jan 2010 05:38:17 < mathw> Yes
26 Jan 2010 05:38:22 < mathw> That was just as I was departing
26 Jan 2010 05:38:25 < rprije> doi vensa do'u lo ru'inaize'a nanca be li re
26 Jan 2010 05:38:27 < vensa> yep
26 Jan 2010 05:39:08 < vensa> ki'a ru'inaize'a
26 Jan 2010 05:40:06 < vensa> doi la'oi mathw lenu sanga kei mo
26 Jan 2010 05:40:26 < rprije> on and off (mostly off by far).
26 Jan 2010 05:40:48 < vensa> what?
26 Jan 2010 05:40:58 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 05:41:04 < vensa> what is ru'inaize'a
26 Jan 2010 05:41:14 < rprije> Yeah, I was trying to answer that question
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26 Jan 2010 05:41:21 < vensa> ah
26 Jan 2010 05:41:27 < vensa> ru'inaize'a = on and off?
26 Jan 2010 05:41:39 < vensa> I think there is actually a tense for that one
26 Jan 2010 05:41:39 < rprije> *shrug* that's what I intended it to mean anyway ):
26 Jan 2010 05:41:43 < rprije> :)
26 Jan 2010 05:41:59 < vensa> let me check
26 Jan 2010 05:42:12 < rprije> ru'i = continuously, ru'inai = not continuously so that should mean on and off. Perhaps the ze'a is superfluous.
26 Jan 2010 05:43:18 < vensa> oh... now I get it
26 Jan 2010 05:43:28 < vensa> yes - that's exactly the cmavo I was refering to
26 Jan 2010 05:43:30 < vensa> good!
26 Jan 2010 05:43:42 < rprije> ui
26 Jan 2010 05:43:50 < vensa> I suppose you could have put some more spaces in there to help me figure out the seperate cmavo :)
26 Jan 2010 05:44:10 < vensa> but you don't have to :)
26 Jan 2010 05:44:30 < rprije> u'u
26 Jan 2010 05:44:40 < vensa> but your use of nanca wasn't gramatical
26 Jan 2010 05:45:36 < rprije> It didn't feel grammatical. What did I screw up?
26 Jan 2010 05:45:53 < vensa> perhaps: lonu mi cilre fi la lojban cu ru'inai nanca li re
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26 Jan 2010 05:46:15 < rprije> But you had a ma - I was trying to fill the ma.
26 Jan 2010 05:46:22 < vensa> hmm
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26 Jan 2010 05:48:22 < vensa> apparently using ru'inai and ze'a together makes it ungramatical
26 Jan 2010 05:48:39 < vensa> I suppose: lo ru'inai nanca be li re would be more than ok
26 Jan 2010 05:49:01 < mathw> vensa: there was a minimal amount of singing
26 Jan 2010 05:49:12 < rprije> Ok, so the ze'a is worse than superfluous :) What's ungrammatical about it btw?
26 Jan 2010 05:49:21 < vensa> assuming the ru'inai functions in the way we think it does
26 Jan 2010 05:49:39 < vensa> rprije: I don't know. it just is. check makfa? (t command)
26 Jan 2010 05:50:44 < vensa> doi mat. ki'u ma do sanga ca le midju be le donri
26 Jan 2010 05:52:41 < vensa> doi rp. do se bangu xo lo bangu
26 Jan 2010 05:53:29 < rprije> ze'aru'inai is probably what I wanted.
26 Jan 2010 05:53:56 < vensa> rprije: perfect! :)
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26 Jan 2010 05:55:52 < mathw> do vensa. mi sanga ne'i lo mi briju
26 Jan 2010 05:56:07 < vensa> uesai
26 Jan 2010 05:57:32 < rprije> mi sipna .i ki'u vensa
26 Jan 2010 05:57:45 < vensa> paunai xu le do jibri jatna cu curmi co'e
26 Jan 2010 05:58:28 < vensa> you sleep, because of spring???
26 Jan 2010 05:58:45 < rprije> ki'e typo, sorry :)
26 Jan 2010 05:59:22 < mathw> go'i
26 Jan 2010 05:59:41 -!- rprije [n=rprije@i218-47-65-157.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit []
26 Jan 2010 06:01:06 < vensa> mu'i ma le go'e curmi
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26 Jan 2010 06:01:51 < vensa> coi lazni
26 Jan 2010 06:02:13 < lazni> coi
26 Jan 2010 06:02:15 < vensa> xu le do jibri jatna ji'a cu sanga
26 Jan 2010 06:02:26 < vensa> doi lazni do'u ma nuzba
26 Jan 2010 06:03:10 < vensa> de'u doi la mat
26 Jan 2010 06:05:15 < vensa> lo'ai jibri jatna sa'ai jitro le'ai
26 Jan 2010 06:05:54 < vensa> doi lazni do'u xu do cnino
26 Jan 2010 06:06:06 < mathw> Because there's no reason to say no. There's a place where we can make noise without disturbing people who are working, and then we go and do performances from time to time which raise stupid amounts of money for charity and are great for the company profile
26 Jan 2010 06:06:08 < vensa> sa .i xu doi lazni do'u do cnino
26 Jan 2010 06:06:27 < vensa> doi mat. je'esai
26 Jan 2010 06:06:30 < mathw> I'm afraid I have insufficient brain to explain that in Lojban right now
26 Jan 2010 06:07:10 < vensa> di'u xamgu
26 Jan 2010 06:07:40 < mathw> .ui
26 Jan 2010 06:07:50 < vensa> i'onaisai
26 Jan 2010 06:08:57 < vensa> ma cmene le do zgike girzu
26 Jan 2010 06:10:18 < mathw> .u'i la tirems.on.rust
26 Jan 2010 06:10:37 < vensa> ki'a tirems
26 Jan 2010 06:10:55 < mathw> go'i bebna cmene
26 Jan 2010 06:11:03 < vensa> u'i
26 Jan 2010 06:11:29 < mathw> "Theorems"
26 Jan 2010 06:11:35 < vensa> uasai
26 Jan 2010 06:11:49 < mathw> came out of an anagram generator
26 Jan 2010 06:11:55 < vensa> crexalbo
26 Jan 2010 06:11:59 < mathw> now you can guess who I work for :P
26 Jan 2010 06:13:11 < vensa> you work for "Monster Shoe Rut"?
26 Jan 2010 06:13:56 < mathw> why yes
26 Jan 2010 06:14:01 < mathw> .u'isai
26 Jan 2010 06:14:05 < vensa> lol.... still working on it
26 Jan 2010 06:14:17 < vensa> dont tell
26 Jan 2010 06:14:59 < vensa> "The Surmon Store"?
26 Jan 2010 06:15:48 < vensa> am I using the right letter?
26 Jan 2010 06:16:04 < vensa> you did actually say Lojban "rust" which would actuallly be English "roost"
26 Jan 2010 06:16:26 < mathw> Ah
26 Jan 2010 06:16:28 < mathw> yes
26 Jan 2010 06:16:33 < mathw> In English it's "Theorems On Rust"
26 Jan 2010 06:16:37 < vensa> ok
26 Jan 2010 06:16:41 < vensa> so hold on
26 Jan 2010 06:16:46 < mathw> still makes me chuckle
26 Jan 2010 06:16:53 < vensa> it's computer-programming related, right?
26 Jan 2010 06:17:48 < vensa> "The UnRose Storm"?
26 Jan 2010 06:18:06 < vensa> damn... is it a well-known company outside england?
26 Jan 2010 06:18:30 < mathw> Yes, but it's quite possible to go through life and never hear our name
26 Jan 2010 06:18:35 < vensa> :(
26 Jan 2010 06:18:36 < mathw> Although increasingly difficult these days
26 Jan 2010 06:18:43 < vensa> jeez
26 Jan 2010 06:18:54 < vensa> I wonder if I havent heard or am just stupid
26 Jan 2010 06:18:55 < mathw> We do have people pretty much everywhere
26 Jan 2010 06:19:06 < mathw> Well it's not the easiest thing in the world
26 Jan 2010 06:19:08 < vensa> can you hint me on one of the least important words?
26 Jan 2010 06:19:22 < mathw> there are two words and they're both names
26 Jan 2010 06:19:33 < vensa> ohhh
26 Jan 2010 06:19:36 < vensa> names are hard
26 Jan 2010 06:19:38 < vensa> lets see
26 Jan 2010 06:20:46 < vensa> thorton-summeres?
26 Jan 2010 06:20:55 < vensa> sheesh
26 Jan 2010 06:20:58 < vensa> lame attempt
26 Jan 2010 06:21:39 < vensa> there's definitely a "son" in there. right?
26 Jan 2010 06:21:51 < mathw> yup
26 Jan 2010 06:23:36 < vensa> termset-hourson? :P (lojban related word)
26 Jan 2010 06:23:43 < vensa> jeez
26 Jan 2010 06:23:46 < vensa> I'm THAT dumb
26 Jan 2010 06:24:37 < vensa> Orson-Trust-Meeh :P
26 Jan 2010 06:24:55 < vensa> you're killing me
26 Jan 2010 06:25:36 < vensa> I've got a blackout
26 Jan 2010 06:25:45 < vensa> give me another tiny hint
26 Jan 2010 06:25:55 < vensa> first letter of the "son" name?
26 Jan 2010 06:26:42 < mathw> T
26 Jan 2010 06:27:38 < vensa> Tomson-the-surer?
26 Jan 2010 06:27:42 < vensa> is it tomson?
26 Jan 2010 06:28:49 < mathw> thomson
26 Jan 2010 06:29:00 < vensa> ok... I dont think I know it
26 Jan 2010 06:29:04 < vensa> bet lets try anyway
26 Jan 2010 06:29:05 < mathw> Thomson Reuters
26 Jan 2010 06:29:08 < mathw> :P
26 Jan 2010 06:29:09 < vensa> oh ok
26 Jan 2010 06:29:13 < vensa> I would never have gotten that
26 Jan 2010 06:29:20 < mathw> Didn't think so
26 Jan 2010 06:29:30 < vensa> Is that like the "news" kind of "reuters"?
26 Jan 2010 06:29:38 < mathw> yes
26 Jan 2010 06:29:43 < vensa> thanks for putting me out of my misery
26 Jan 2010 06:29:46 < mathw> although I don't work for that part of the company
26 Jan 2010 06:29:57 < mathw> but yes, Reuters News is one of the other parts
26 Jan 2010 06:29:57 < vensa> oh... but it;s the same Reuters?
26 Jan 2010 06:30:01 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 06:30:08 < mathw> hence we have people everywhere
26 Jan 2010 06:30:08 < vensa> so, I only vaguely heard of that part :P
26 Jan 2010 06:30:19 < mathw> in my part we tend to be a bit less scattered :)
26 Jan 2010 06:30:26 < vensa> nevertheless, very cool name
26 Jan 2010 06:30:30 < vensa> (for the band)
26 Jan 2010 06:30:41 < mathw> we were always stuck with what to call it
26 Jan 2010 06:30:52 < mathw> we were The Thomson Reuters Twins for a bit
26 Jan 2010 06:30:58 < vensa> now you can switch to Monster Shoe Rut :)
26 Jan 2010 06:31:06 < mathw> but then when we started doing gigs which weren't the company party, that didn't seem appropriate anymore
26 Jan 2010 06:31:22 < mathw> So eventually somebody just went through several cycles on an anagram generator, and we voted
26 Jan 2010 06:31:38 < vensa> Was Monster Shoe Rut an option?
26 Jan 2010 06:31:41 < mathw> More Short Tunes was another anagram, but that's what we called the show last time
26 Jan 2010 06:31:50 < vensa> cool!
26 Jan 2010 06:32:03 < mathw> it was fairly successful
26 Jan 2010 06:32:10 < mathw> my singing teacher came and had a great time
26 Jan 2010 06:32:16 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 06:32:23 < vensa> what kind of music do the Theorems play?
26 Jan 2010 06:32:29 < mathw> rock and pop covers
26 Jan 2010 06:32:32 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 06:32:38 < mathw> unfortunately we don't have the spare brainpower to write our own material
26 Jan 2010 06:32:40 < vensa> and do you play an instrument as well?
26 Jan 2010 06:32:48 < mathw> yes
26 Jan 2010 06:32:55 < mathw> I play several, but most of them are unsuitable for this kind of music
26 Jan 2010 06:32:56 < vensa> which?
26 Jan 2010 06:33:02 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 06:33:06 < vensa> so at the show?
26 Jan 2010 06:33:09 < vensa> you just sing?
26 Jan 2010 06:33:11 < mathw> I play recorders, bass viol and EWI as well as singing
26 Jan 2010 06:33:20 < mathw> so I usually just sing and sometimes do some EWI bits
26 Jan 2010 06:33:24 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 06:33:34 < mathw> although the recorders have put in an appearance sometimes
26 Jan 2010 06:33:49 < mathw> pretending to be a tin whistle or a flute, usually
26 Jan 2010 06:34:08 < vensa> if you don't want to "write" your own songs. You could compose music for your source code... :P
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26 Jan 2010 06:34:44 < vensa> who do you cover?
26 Jan 2010 06:34:51 < mathw> yes and then we'd be singing company secrets in public
26 Jan 2010 06:34:58 < mathw> I doubt that would go down very well :)
26 Jan 2010 06:34:58 < vensa> lol
26 Jan 2010 06:35:09 < mathw> well we're currently working on the set list for the next gig
26 Jan 2010 06:35:15 < vensa> I doubt the crowd would stay long enough to unvail any secrets
26 Jan 2010 06:35:24 < mathw> most of them wouldn't understand them anyway
26 Jan 2010 06:35:35 < vensa> yeah
26 Jan 2010 06:35:37 < mathw> and we could minimise the damage by singing one of the threading classes or something
26 Jan 2010 06:35:45 < vensa> lol
26 Jan 2010 06:35:55 < vensa> or just the .h file
26 Jan 2010 06:36:00 < vensa> it IS c++ right?
26 Jan 2010 06:36:03 < mathw> yes
26 Jan 2010 06:36:06 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 06:36:22 < mathw> maybe not
26 Jan 2010 06:36:30 < mathw> would be more popular to sing in Lojban
26 Jan 2010 06:36:33 < mathw> hmm there's a point
26 Jan 2010 06:36:38 < mathw> we've never sung in not-English
26 Jan 2010 06:36:44 < mathw> except for that line in Call Me that's in French
26 Jan 2010 06:37:01 < vensa> There's a line in french there?
26 Jan 2010 06:37:04 < mathw> yeah
26 Jan 2010 06:37:07 < mathw> just a brief one
26 Jan 2010 06:37:09 < vensa> how does it go?
26 Jan 2010 06:37:12 < mathw> I don't know
26 Jan 2010 06:37:17 < mathw> I don't sing that song
26 Jan 2010 06:37:18 < vensa> where does it go?
26 Jan 2010 06:37:20 < vensa> ok
26 Jan 2010 06:37:34 < vensa> so what's planned for next gig? (sneak preview)
26 Jan 2010 06:38:44 < vensa> just to get this straight: you practice on company-time? getting payed for it??
26 Jan 2010 06:38:47 < mathw> at the moment... Dire Straits - Money for Nothing; Tears For Fears - Everybody Wants To Rule The World; Elvis Costello - Oliver's Army; Fairground Attraction - Perfect; The Kinks - You Really Got Me
26 Jan 2010 06:38:51 < mathw> no we practise at lunchtime
26 Jan 2010 06:38:54 < mathw> for which we are not paid anyway
26 Jan 2010 06:39:01 < vensa> oh.... so when do you eat?
26 Jan 2010 06:39:09 < mathw> at my desk :)
26 Jan 2010 06:39:16 < vensa> I C
26 Jan 2010 06:39:21 < mathw> or we take a longer lunch, and make up the time
26 Jan 2010 06:39:24 < mathw> we're quite flexible
26 Jan 2010 06:39:26 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 06:39:30 < mathw> sometimes we practise after work as well
26 Jan 2010 06:39:40 < vensa> I C you're an eighties kind of band
26 Jan 2010 06:39:45 < mathw> well not really
26 Jan 2010 06:39:53 < mathw> there's other stuff on the list too
26 Jan 2010 06:39:58 < mathw> Ting Tings
26 Jan 2010 06:40:00 < mathw> Kaiser Chiefs
26 Jan 2010 06:40:03 < mathw> Feeder
26 Jan 2010 06:40:06 < mathw> Nirvana
26 Jan 2010 06:40:13 < mathw> Depeche Mode
26 Jan 2010 06:40:15 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 06:40:28 < mathw> The only things we never play are the kind of music I really like
26 Jan 2010 06:40:37 < vensa> which is?
26 Jan 2010 06:41:11 < mathw> english folk music
26 Jan 2010 06:41:20 < mathw> I don't have a band for that :(
26 Jan 2010 06:41:25 < mathw> ...yet
26 Jan 2010 06:41:28 < vensa> hmmm... not familiar with that
26 Jan 2010 06:42:02 < vensa> i was sure you were going to say "electronic"
26 Jan 2010 06:42:18 < mathw> Oh I like some of that too
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26 Jan 2010 06:42:23 < mathw> I like quite a lot of things
26 Jan 2010 06:43:45 < vensa> thats always a good strategy
26 Jan 2010 06:44:17 < mathw> yes
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26 Jan 2010 06:44:27 < mathw> I also do baroque and renaissance music
26 Jan 2010 06:44:42 < mathw> which is where the recorders and viol come in
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26 Jan 2010 06:44:59 < vensa> ta'onai la lojban
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26 Jan 2010 06:45:41 < vensa_> je'esai
26 Jan 2010 06:46:41 < vensa_> xu do djica lonu kelci la reno preti .a lo drata se kelci
26 Jan 2010 06:46:58 < vensa_> {.a=>.onai}
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26 Jan 2010 06:48:23 < mathw> la reno preti cu pilxau
26 Jan 2010 06:48:40 < vensa> je'e
26 Jan 2010 06:48:43 < vensa> xu do djica lonu pensi
26 Jan 2010 06:49:03 < mathw> go'i
26 Jan 2010 06:49:06 < vensa> je'e
26 Jan 2010 06:49:09 < vensa> ko pensi
26 Jan 2010 06:49:38 < mathw> mi pensi
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26 Jan 2010 06:50:35 < mathw> .i lonu mi pensi kei mulno
26 Jan 2010 06:50:52 <@xalbo> coi do'u do mo
26 Jan 2010 06:51:02 < vensa> mi'a kelci la reno preti
26 Jan 2010 06:51:11 < mathw> coi la xalbo
26 Jan 2010 06:51:15 <@xalbo> je'e do'u .i'e
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26 Jan 2010 06:52:30 < vensa> xu do djica lonu kelci ji'a
26 Jan 2010 06:53:11 <@xalbo> ja'a djica
26 Jan 2010 06:53:26 < vensa> mathw: if you're done thinking you need to give the first phrase
26 Jan 2010 06:53:37 < vensa> e.g.: mi pensi lo jmive goi ko'a
26 Jan 2010 06:53:41 < vensa> (for living things)
26 Jan 2010 06:54:35 < mathw> oh yes
26 Jan 2010 06:54:50 < mathw> mi sedycro
26 Jan 2010 06:55:06 < vensa> uudai
26 Jan 2010 06:55:38 < mathw> .i mi pensi lo na jmive goi ko'a
26 Jan 2010 06:56:02 < vensa> fair enough :)
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26 Jan 2010 06:56:53 < vensa> xu ko'a barda fi lo nanba tanxe
26 Jan 2010 06:57:33 < mathw> na go'i
26 Jan 2010 06:57:41 <@xalbo> .i ko'a nilce xu
26 Jan 2010 06:58:04 < vensa> xalbo: furniture that's smaller than a bread box?
26 Jan 2010 06:58:40 <@xalbo> .u'u ro'a
26 Jan 2010 06:58:44 < mathw> ko'a na nilce
26 Jan 2010 06:59:13 <@Broca> lo ninmu cu nilce
26 Jan 2010 06:59:21 <@Broca> (La donna è mobile)
26 Jan 2010 06:59:25 < vensa> what??
26 Jan 2010 06:59:35 < vensa> a woman is furniture?
26 Jan 2010 07:00:05 <@Broca> http://translate.google.com/#it|en|mobile
26 Jan 2010 07:00:06 < vensa> a woman is bigger than a bread box (at least the women I go out with)
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26 Jan 2010 07:02:59 < vensa> xu ko'a se zbasu fi lo mudri
26 Jan 2010 07:03:04 < mathw> lo nanba tanxe pe la broca. cu mutce barda
26 Jan 2010 07:03:12 < vensa> u'isai
26 Jan 2010 07:03:39 < mathw> na go'i
26 Jan 2010 07:03:48 < vensa> xu ko'a se zbasu fi lo slasi
26 Jan 2010 07:04:09 < vensa> xu do kancu
26 Jan 2010 07:04:09 <@Broca> mi na ponse lo nanba tanxe
26 Jan 2010 07:04:21 < vensa> uudai doi broca
26 Jan 2010 07:04:35 <@Broca> mi na nitcu lo nu ponse lo nanba tanxe
26 Jan 2010 07:04:55 < vensa> xalbo, broca: do you have a better way for asking about the material of ko'a?
26 Jan 2010 07:05:17 <@xalbo> zo marji
26 Jan 2010 07:05:18 < vensa> xu do me la tseliak doi broca
26 Jan 2010 07:05:20 < vensa> u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:05:33 < mathw> doi vensa. ko'a se zbasu fi lo slasi
26 Jan 2010 07:05:50 <@xalbo> lu ko'a marji lo mudri xu li'u .e lu ko'a mudri xu li'u co'e
26 Jan 2010 07:05:52 < vensa> marji doesn't have a slot for the thing that the material makes
26 Jan 2010 07:06:15 < vensa> ko'a mudri is good but perhaps too vague
26 Jan 2010 07:06:16 <@xalbo> Yes it does, the x1.
26 Jan 2010 07:06:30 <@xalbo> "x1 is made of stuff x2, in shape x3"
26 Jan 2010 07:06:33 < vensa> oh, I misread the def
26 Jan 2010 07:07:14 < vensa> so, it's plastic. is anyone counting questions?
26 Jan 2010 07:08:22 < vensa> xu ko'a marji lo slasi ra'u
26 Jan 2010 07:08:25 < mathw> four
26 Jan 2010 07:08:41 < mathw> go'i
26 Jan 2010 07:09:11 < vensa> xu ko'a se pilno
26 Jan 2010 07:09:12 <@Broca> doi vensa mi citka lo nanba i ku'i mi na punji ri lo nanba tanxe
26 Jan 2010 07:09:42 < vensa> doi broca je'e ui
26 Jan 2010 07:09:57 < vensa> or rather
26 Jan 2010 07:10:00 < vensa> je'e broca ui
26 Jan 2010 07:11:16 < timonato1> mi cilre fi la turing
26 Jan 2010 07:11:26 < timonato1> lo ctuca cu mutce se cfipu u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:11:32 < timonato1> crexalbo
26 Jan 2010 07:11:47 < vensa> doi timonator mi'a kelci la reno preti
26 Jan 2010 07:12:20 < timonato1> xu do djica tu'a zo mei
26 Jan 2010 07:12:37 < mathw> doi vensa. ko'a se pilno
26 Jan 2010 07:12:48 < vensa> timos: no comprenda
26 Jan 2010 07:12:53 < timonato1> do bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:12:54 < timonato1> u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:13:18 < timonato1> mi stidi tu'a lu la re no mei preti li'u
26 Jan 2010 07:13:29 < vensa> mutce xagji je'unai
26 Jan 2010 07:13:45 < timonato1> mi pu citka lo kukte
26 Jan 2010 07:13:52 < vensa> sa .i mutce xajmi je;unai
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26 Jan 2010 07:14:15 < timonator> u'i sai
26 Jan 2010 07:14:37 < vensa> thanks for the suggestion timos. I wasnt aware of mei
26 Jan 2010 07:14:51 < vensa> anyway: we're looking for a small plastic tool
26 Jan 2010 07:16:05 < vensa> xu do'o pilno ko'a lonu ciska
26 Jan 2010 07:16:18 < timonator> go'i
26 Jan 2010 07:16:21 < timonator> penbi
26 Jan 2010 07:16:34 < timonator> penbi fi tu'a lo bolci
26 Jan 2010 07:16:36 < vensa> timos: you're not the thinker
26 Jan 2010 07:16:40 < timonator> u'u
26 Jan 2010 07:16:46 < vensa> mathw has thought of the thing we are trying to guess
26 Jan 2010 07:16:47 <@xalbo> zo tutci co'e
26 Jan 2010 07:16:49 < timonator> i wasn't aware i did not think
26 Jan 2010 07:17:22 < vensa> xalbo: what r u trying to say?
26 Jan 2010 07:17:43 <@xalbo> .i lo za'i do na sanji cu jalge lo nu do na pensi
26 Jan 2010 07:17:52 < timonator> u'i sai
26 Jan 2010 07:18:00 <@xalbo> {tutci} is probably better than {pilno}, unless you care about a particular agent.
26 Jan 2010 07:18:33 < vensa> huh? better in what sense?
26 Jan 2010 07:18:51 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 07:18:52 < vensa> i get it
26 Jan 2010 07:18:59 < vensa> it's a way to omit the "do'o"
26 Jan 2010 07:19:02 < vensa> ?
26 Jan 2010 07:19:18 < vensa> well, I was just using pilno because we had already concluded that "ko'a se pilno"
26 Jan 2010 07:19:59 < mathw> doi vensa. go'i
26 Jan 2010 07:20:05 < vensa> woohoo
26 Jan 2010 07:20:09 < vensa> xu ko'a penbi
26 Jan 2010 07:20:16 < mathw> go'i
26 Jan 2010 07:20:18 < vensa> woohoo
26 Jan 2010 07:20:25 < vensa> ki'e mat
26 Jan 2010 07:20:26 < mathw> fu'i
26 Jan 2010 07:20:30 < vensa> (for making it easy)
26 Jan 2010 07:20:57 < vensa> ma ca djica lonu pensi
26 Jan 2010 07:21:40 < vensa> doi xalbo .i doi timonator
26 Jan 2010 07:21:51 < timonator> mi djica lo nu penbi
26 Jan 2010 07:22:06 < vensa> mutce xajmi je'unai
26 Jan 2010 07:22:19 < timonator> u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:22:29 < vensa> xu do xalbebna
26 Jan 2010 07:22:38 < timonator> na go'i
26 Jan 2010 07:22:47 < timonator> mi na se zdile
26 Jan 2010 07:23:03 < vensa> za'a do rarna bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:23:08 < timonator> rarna ue
26 Jan 2010 07:23:13 < timonator> ua
26 Jan 2010 07:23:16 < timonator> mi rarna bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:23:41 < vensa> xamgu do
26 Jan 2010 07:23:57 < timonator> mi nelci lo nu mi rarna bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:24:03 < vensa> xamgu do
26 Jan 2010 07:24:04 < timonator> ro drata cu fadni
26 Jan 2010 07:24:10 <@xalbo> .i lo ka ce'u bebna kei mi jinzi
26 Jan 2010 07:24:24 < timonator> mi nelci doi xalbo
26 Jan 2010 07:24:39 < vensa> xamgu do
26 Jan 2010 07:24:44 < timonator> ai dente
26 Jan 2010 07:24:47 < vensa> xu do djica lenu ca kelci
26 Jan 2010 07:25:01 < vensa> ki'a dente
26 Jan 2010 07:25:36 < timonator> u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:25:41 < timonator> srana la aidentikar
26 Jan 2010 07:25:56 < vensa> ki'a la aidentikar
26 Jan 2010 07:26:09 < timonator> la'o ueb identi.ca ueb samjudri
26 Jan 2010 07:26:18 < timonator> sa i zoi ueb identi.ca ueb samjudri
26 Jan 2010 07:27:00 < vensa> ma do te tavla
26 Jan 2010 07:27:19 < timonator> zoi ueb http://identi.ca/ ueb co'e oi
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26 Jan 2010 07:27:25 < timonator> coi feliks
26 Jan 2010 07:27:34 < feliks> coi ro do
26 Jan 2010 07:27:46 < vensa> still no idea what he's talking about. oh well
26 Jan 2010 07:27:49 < vensa> coi feliks
26 Jan 2010 07:27:56 < timonator> http://identi.ca/
26 Jan 2010 07:28:02 < vensa> what about it>?
26 Jan 2010 07:28:04 <@xalbo> doi .feliks. do'u do xu djuno lo du'u zo .feliks. zo'oi Felix na simsa lo ka sance
26 Jan 2010 07:28:04 < timonator> writing a message is called denting
26 Jan 2010 07:28:12 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 07:28:12 < timonator> (like how twitter users tweet)
26 Jan 2010 07:28:18 < vensa> I really had no idea
26 Jan 2010 07:28:22 < timonator> u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:28:23 < vensa> nor any familiarity
26 Jan 2010 07:28:24 < timonator> za'a do bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:28:32 < vensa> so that's unfairt
26 Jan 2010 07:28:39 < vensa> mi na bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:28:46 < timonator> mi fraxu do
26 Jan 2010 07:28:56 < vensa> do hu'o bebna
26 Jan 2010 07:28:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit []
26 Jan 2010 07:28:58 <@xalbo> .i denci ko
26 Jan 2010 07:29:07 < timonator> u'i
26 Jan 2010 07:29:08 < vensa> ki'e
26 Jan 2010 07:29:15 < vensa> {hu'o=>ju'o}
26 Jan 2010 07:29:36 < timonator> is there a .ko tld?
26 Jan 2010 07:29:38 < vensa> xalbo: I thought about dental too
26 Jan 2010 07:29:53 < vensa> what's a tld?
26 Jan 2010 07:29:58 < timonator> top level domain
26 Jan 2010 07:30:01 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 07:30:21 < vensa> like "uk", "il", "com"?
26 Jan 2010 07:30:28 < feliks> xalbo were you asking me whether 'feliks' does -not- sound like 'Felix'?
26 Jan 2010 07:30:31 < timonator> never heard of il. but otherwise yes
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26 Jan 2010 07:30:46 < vensa> "il" is Israel
26 Jan 2010 07:30:49 < timonator> i see
26 Jan 2010 07:30:57 < clsn> ko is korea I think.
26 Jan 2010 07:31:00 <@xalbo> I was asking you whether you knew that it does not.
26 Jan 2010 07:31:14 < feliks> oic
26 Jan 2010 07:31:19 < vensa> why not?
26 Jan 2010 07:31:23 < vensa> depends how you pronoubnce it
26 Jan 2010 07:31:26 <@xalbo> At least, it doesn't sound like the normal English pronunctiation of "Felix".
26 Jan 2010 07:31:29 < feliks> in german it does precisely
26 Jan 2010 07:31:31 < vensa> exactly
26 Jan 2010 07:31:34 <@xalbo> Ahh, cool.
26 Jan 2010 07:31:36 < vensa> in hebrew too
26 Jan 2010 07:31:50 < vensa> xalbo: you want "filyks"?
26 Jan 2010 07:32:12 < feliks> kr is the domain for korea (south)
26 Jan 2010 07:32:14 <@xalbo> That's probably the closest, given the lack of a short I.
26 Jan 2010 07:32:31 < vensa> ta'o coi clsn
26 Jan 2010 07:32:36 < vensa> מה נשמע?
26 Jan 2010 07:33:17 -!- Katt_jaCigg [n=katt_ja@62-20-218-242-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 07:34:43 < clsn> לא הרבה.  מחכה לפגישה אן־ליין
26 Jan 2010 07:34:45 < feliks> an idea anyone how to say 'check', in the meaning of 'double check (calculation results)?
26 Jan 2010 07:35:48 < kribacr> lo nu catlu ku rapli li re
26 Jan 2010 07:36:35 < feliks> hm, very winded
26 Jan 2010 07:36:54 < clsn> is it really "looking"?
26 Jan 2010 07:37:39 <@xalbo> It's probably a form of {cipra}
26 Jan 2010 07:38:25 < feliks> cipra sounds good
26 Jan 2010 07:38:33 -!- vensa_ [i=598a971d@gateway/web/freenode/x-okbtnbtvbskbwehm] has joined #lojban
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26 Jan 2010 07:38:48 < kribacr> Ah, cipra. Yeah.
26 Jan 2010 07:39:00 < kribacr> I dunno, took a stab in the dark. :P
26 Jan 2010 07:39:32 < vensa_> coi kribacr
26 Jan 2010 07:39:37 < feliks> lo nu rapli cipra
26 Jan 2010 07:39:37 < kribacr> coi vy.
26 Jan 2010 07:40:02 < vensa_> feliks: sounds good
26 Jan 2010 07:40:13 < Nuky_> Things that try to look like things often look more like things than things. Well known fact.
26 Jan 2010 07:40:13 < timonator> it's too late for christmas carols in lojban
26 Jan 2010 07:40:15 < timonator> or too early
26 Jan 2010 07:40:38 < vensa_> Nuky: huh?
26 Jan 2010 07:40:43 < feliks> ki'e
26 Jan 2010 07:40:53 < vensa_> timos: how'd you get to christmas?
26 Jan 2010 07:41:08 < vensa_> if you've got a carol - just sing it. dont be shy
26 Jan 2010 07:41:15 < kribacr> We don't celebrate Christmas here. We celebrate lojboween. Or rather... lojbo,uin
26 Jan 2010 07:41:25 < timonator> vensa_: checking lists twice usually happens before christmas
26 Jan 2010 07:41:29 < vensa_> if you havent got one - it'll probably take you until next christmas to write it in lojban
26 Jan 2010 07:41:44 < timonator> you know, for determining the goodness-state of children in a set, a need has to be made and then checked twice
26 Jan 2010 07:41:50 < vensa_> ahh... I'm not aware of that Christian ritual
26 Jan 2010 07:41:54 < Nuky_> Pratchett, Vensa.
26 Jan 2010 07:42:03 < vensa_> Terry?
26 Jan 2010 07:42:11 < Nuky_> Aye.
26 Jan 2010 07:42:15 < vensa_> :)
26 Jan 2010 07:42:24 -!- daniskami [n=daniel@e178050211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 07:42:25 < vensa_> I only read "The color of magic"
26 Jan 2010 07:42:49 < vensa_> however I did read the whol Hitchhiker's guide
26 Jan 2010 07:42:56 < vensa_> coi daniskami
26 Jan 2010 07:43:03 < Nuky_> Hehe, I'm not very well read on those two myself.
26 Jan 2010 07:43:08 < daniskami> coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 07:43:11 < Nuky_> coi do
26 Jan 2010 07:43:37 < timonator> vensa_: i got that from some song "he's making a list / checking it twice / he's gonna find out who was naughty and nice" and so on
26 Jan 2010 07:43:56 < timonator> i apologize for making such a horribly culturally biased statement
26 Jan 2010 07:44:06 < vensa_> shame on you
26 Jan 2010 07:44:13 < vensa_> :P
26 Jan 2010 07:44:15 < timonator> ash on my head
26 Jan 2010 07:44:15 < vensa_> de'a jundi
26 Jan 2010 07:44:21 < timonator> unto
26 Jan 2010 07:44:27 < timonator> ash unto mine head
26 Jan 2010 07:46:18 <@xalbo> The first few Discworld books are nowhere near as good as later ones.  The later ones are absolutely fantastic, and highly recommended.
26 Jan 2010 07:46:48 < vensa_> really? I'll remember that next time I have time to read a book
26 Jan 2010 07:46:49 -!- FireFly [n=firefly@unaffiliated/firefly] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 07:46:53 < vensa_> (probably after retirement)
26 Jan 2010 07:46:57 < timonator> hmm
26 Jan 2010 07:47:03 < timonator> i only read parts of "Thud!"
26 Jan 2010 07:47:08 < timonator> was that an earlier or a later one?
26 Jan 2010 07:47:25 < Nuky_> Ditto. =)
26 Jan 2010 07:47:25 < vensa_> I'm thiking aournd #4
26 Jan 2010 07:47:28 < vensa_> ??
26 Jan 2010 07:47:36 < vensa_> ditto me?
26 Jan 2010 07:47:57 < timonator> poor you, vensa
26 Jan 2010 07:48:02 < Nuky_> No, ditto as in I too should remember what xalbo said. =)
26 Jan 2010 07:48:11 < vensa_> oh :)
26 Jan 2010 07:48:21 < vensa_> poor me Y?
26 Jan 2010 07:48:28 -!- vensa_ is now known as vensa
26 Jan 2010 07:48:30 <@xalbo> "Thud" is rather recent.
26 Jan 2010 07:48:42 < timonator> thud is actually 34, not 4
26 Jan 2010 07:48:47 < timonator> i didn't terribly like it
26 Jan 2010 07:48:50 < vensa> close :)
26 Jan 2010 07:49:04 < vensa> xalbo: can you read 34 without reading 33, 32, 31, etc?
26 Jan 2010 07:49:52 < vensa> I think Douglas Adams did it best - if you don't stop at 3, at least stop at 5! :P
26 Jan 2010 07:49:59 <@xalbo> You can, but you might get more out of them in published order.  Let me see if I can find where to start again.
26 Jan 2010 07:50:00 < vensa> leave them wanting more
26 Jan 2010 07:50:26 < vensa> xalbo: then it seems like a bummer to have to read through the "less intereting" ones
26 Jan 2010 07:51:17 <@xalbo> I think the most common advice is to start with "Wyrd Sisters", or "Guards, Guards!"
26 Jan 2010 07:51:32 < vensa> wow... poor thing. he died only 49yo
26 Jan 2010 07:51:55 < vensa> if he would have done it 7 years earlier - at least it would have been a great pun
26 Jan 2010 07:52:16 <@xalbo> "Wyrd Sisters" is very good, pretty much starts the witches books (there is one before, but it's not as good), sets up lots of things, etc.
26 Jan 2010 07:52:25 -!- feliks [n=xyz@f052058128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit []
26 Jan 2010 07:52:36 <@xalbo> But this doesn't belong on this channel.
26 Jan 2010 07:52:52 < vensa> not if you say it in Lojban :P
26 Jan 2010 07:52:59 < vensa> {unless}
26 Jan 2010 07:53:44 <@xalbo> .i mi stidi lo nu do tcidu fi lo cukta be la'o gy. Wyrd Sisters .gy. bei la'o gy. Terry Pratchett .gy.
26 Jan 2010 07:53:51 <@xalbo> .i mutce zdile
26 Jan 2010 07:54:00 < vensa> je'e
26 Jan 2010 07:54:06 < vensa> ki'e xalbo
26 Jan 2010 07:54:33 < vensa> mi nelci le namcu po'u li vore
26 Jan 2010 07:57:16 < vensa> mi na ka'e denpa lenu mi zatra'i li vore
26 Jan 2010 07:58:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 07:58:08 < vensa> si si si jai nanca li vore
26 Jan 2010 07:58:18 < vensa> (is that better? I didn't like that lujvo)
26 Jan 2010 07:58:30 < vensa> oops, I neede 4 "si"
26 Jan 2010 08:00:02 < vensa> coisai .i xu su'odo cu tinju'i
26 Jan 2010 08:00:23 < vensa> ju'i
26 Jan 2010 08:00:55 < vensa> ju'inai je'unai
26 Jan 2010 08:00:59 < vensa> mi jai fenki
26 Jan 2010 08:01:17 < vensa> mi mi tavla zo'o
26 Jan 2010 08:02:08 < vensa> mi stidi lenu ko ko tavla kei rodo
26 Jan 2010 08:02:34 < vensa> mi tatpi
26 Jan 2010 08:02:45 < vensa> coi kpreid
26 Jan 2010 08:02:49 <@xalbo> re'i
26 Jan 2010 08:03:29 < vensa> be'e xalbo
26 Jan 2010 08:04:22 <@xalbo> mi ca tatpi gi'e se xlali sipna ca'o lo purlamcte
26 Jan 2010 08:04:49 < vensa> je'e
26 Jan 2010 08:04:50 < vensa> uudai
26 Jan 2010 08:05:25 < vensa> xu do bazi co'a sipna
26 Jan 2010 08:08:47 <@xalbo> na go'i .i li pa no mi tcika
26 Jan 2010 08:09:16 <@xalbo> .i co'a ba za lo cacra be li pa re mi sipna
26 Jan 2010 08:10:13 < vensa> can you put "mi" in x2 of tcika?
26 Jan 2010 08:10:21 < vensa> lindar would have objected
26 Jan 2010 08:10:27 < vensa> I for one don't mind
26 Jan 2010 08:10:59 <@xalbo> Sorry, I meant {tcika fi mi}
26 Jan 2010 08:11:15 < vensa> so, now you are a "day"?
26 Jan 2010 08:11:16 <@xalbo> I wanted to be the location, and was lazy about not looking up the place structure.
26 Jan 2010 08:11:23 < vensa> you need fo :P
26 Jan 2010 08:11:24 <@xalbo> fo, damnit
26 Jan 2010 08:11:26 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 08:11:30 <@xalbo> now that was a typo/thinko.
26 Jan 2010 08:11:31 <@xalbo> argh.
26 Jan 2010 08:11:36 <@xalbo> .oi ro'e
26 Jan 2010 08:11:37 < vensa> hehehe
26 Jan 2010 08:12:19 < vensa> still problematic
26 Jan 2010 08:14:24 < vensa> becuz of the 24h system, you are saying that it's 10am and you go to sleep after 12 noon?
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26 Jan 2010 08:16:07 < vensa> coi cmacis
26 Jan 2010 08:16:37 < cmacis> coi vensa coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 08:17:51 < vensa> ma nuzba
26 Jan 2010 08:20:13 <@xalbo> I'm saying I go to sleep 12 hours from now.
26 Jan 2010 08:20:42 < vensa> ah
26 Jan 2010 08:21:36 < vensa> which part does that?
26 Jan 2010 08:21:38 < vensa> the "za"?
26 Jan 2010 08:22:22 <@xalbo> Yeah, {za} as a sumtcita specifies how far into the future or past the event is.
26 Jan 2010 08:22:53 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
26 Jan 2010 08:22:55 < kribacr> That didn't parse, xalbo.
26 Jan 2010 08:23:19 < kribacr> {co'a ku} maybe.
26 Jan 2010 08:23:27 <@xalbo> Sigh.
26 Jan 2010 08:23:28 -!- emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 08:23:29 < kribacr> Yeah, that fixed it.
26 Jan 2010 08:23:34 < vensa> so: mi bazi lo cacra be li pimu cu cliva le mi briju (?)
26 Jan 2010 08:23:59 <@xalbo> that works
26 Jan 2010 08:24:11 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 08:24:45  * xalbo once again wishes we could just unify all the tenses into one doi .fykn. selma'o.
26 Jan 2010 08:24:53 < vensa> without the "zi" what would it mean
26 Jan 2010 08:24:53 < kribacr> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 08:24:54 < vensa> ?
26 Jan 2010 08:25:19 <@xalbo> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Internal+grammar+of+tags
26 Jan 2010 08:25:56 < vensa> does that come instead of a formal answer?
26 Jan 2010 08:26:13 <@xalbo> No, that's a contiunation of my rant, before I answer your questions.
26 Jan 2010 08:26:32 < vensa> oh
26 Jan 2010 08:27:08 <@xalbo> {ba} as sumtcita indicates that the main bridi occurs after the sumti it marks, in this case, after "some event that is half an hour long"
26 Jan 2010 08:28:08 < vensa> doesnt that mean the same thing?
26 Jan 2010 08:28:32 < vensa> after a half-hour evet -vs- in half an hour
26 Jan 2010 08:29:27 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 08:30:04 <@xalbo> They might fall out to similar meanings under normal context, but the non-ZA form seems odd.
26 Jan 2010 08:30:24 <@xalbo> The {ba} version could be after your favourite half-hour long tv show, or any other such event.
26 Jan 2010 08:30:42 < vensa> cool
26 Jan 2010 08:45:50 -!- vensa [i=598a971d@gateway/web/freenode/x-okbtnbtvbskbwehm] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
26 Jan 2010 08:53:21 -!- sonja [n=sonja@206.248.173.89] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 08:53:29 < sonja> coi
26 Jan 2010 08:54:51 < sonja> what does mi se xance mean?
26 Jan 2010 08:54:51 -!- muiro [n=muiro@unaffiliated/muiro] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 08:55:38 < sonja> i have a hand?
26 Jan 2010 08:56:13 <@Broca> yes
26 Jan 2010 08:58:08 -!- datka [n=duck@24.33.242.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
26 Jan 2010 08:59:02 < sonja> is it the most common way to say i have a hand?
26 Jan 2010 08:59:45 <@Broca> Yes
26 Jan 2010 09:01:21 <@xalbo> .i mi kucli lo du'u ma kau krinu lo nu da xusra lo du'u xance da
26 Jan 2010 09:01:38 <@xalbo> I'm curious why one would assert that one has a hand.
26 Jan 2010 09:01:56 <@Broca> No hands, no cake ...
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26 Jan 2010 09:04:32 -!- Melvar [n=melvar@dslb-092-072-152-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lojban
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26 Jan 2010 09:05:02 < sonja> if one has a computer you need to use a selbri for having
26 Jan 2010 09:06:29 <@xalbo> {ponse} is "x1 possesses/owns/has x2 under law/custom x3; x1 is owner/proprietor of x2 under x3"
26 Jan 2010 09:08:56 -!- MigoMipo [n=migomipo@84-217-14-20.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #lojban
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26 Jan 2010 09:11:40  * Melvar has yet another question.
26 Jan 2010 09:13:11 < Melvar> Is it possible to parse Lojban written without spaces?
26 Jan 2010 09:14:48 <@xalbo> If you mark stress and mandatory stops (dots), then yes, it is.
26 Jan 2010 09:15:05 < Melvar> I thought so.
26 Jan 2010 09:15:54 <@xalbo> .inaNANdugi'eja'aku'ito'eMELbipe'isai
26 Jan 2010 09:16:12 < Melvar> Sadly, apparently, jbofi'e does not recognize capitals at all.
26 Jan 2010 09:16:31 <@xalbo> (stress on cmavo is nearly free, although you're not allowed to stress the syllable before a brivla)
26 Jan 2010 09:17:30 <@xalbo> camxes does just fine with it.
26 Jan 2010 09:18:20 < Melvar> cy.mo
26 Jan 2010 09:19:26 <@xalbo> la .camxes. simsa la jbofi'e .i gerna minji
26 Jan 2010 09:19:48 <@xalbo> http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/grammar/
26 Jan 2010 09:20:01 <@xalbo> Doesn't gloss, but it does a very good job parsing.
26 Jan 2010 09:24:47 -!- sonja [n=sonja@206.248.173.89] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
26 Jan 2010 09:25:34 < Melvar> I must say I find that the method of indicating stress with capitals looks rather ugly.
26 Jan 2010 09:26:24 <@xalbo> I tend to use acute accent marks, myself.
26 Jan 2010 09:26:30 -!- emma_ [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 09:26:54 <@xalbo> .ideisenélcidoxu
26 Jan 2010 09:27:44 <@xalbo> But I just tend to use spaces, really.
26 Jan 2010 09:30:46 < Melvar> I would much prefer acutes, as well.
26 Jan 2010 09:31:59 -!- sonja [n=sonja@206.248.173.89] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 09:32:40 < sonja> is that verb only used for ownership?
26 Jan 2010 09:32:54 < sonja> what if i regularly use something
26 Jan 2010 09:33:06 < sonja> but am not the legal owner
26 Jan 2010 09:34:39 <@xalbo> Well, the x3 could be pretty broad, but you might also consider using something else.
26 Jan 2010 09:41:35 -!- mefistofeles [n=Tathar@unaffiliated/mefistofeles] has joined #lojban
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26 Jan 2010 09:45:34 < sonja> if i want to say that Budapest has a river
26 Jan 2010 09:45:46 < sonja> is that a different verb?
26 Jan 2010 09:48:21 -!- tomoj [n=user@cpe-70-112-74-98.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]
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26 Jan 2010 09:50:32 <@xalbo> Yes.  "Have" has a whole bunch of meanings.
26 Jan 2010 09:51:28 -!- stupid2 [n=stupid2@pD9EAAA18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 09:51:50 <@xalbo> that's probably just {se rirxe}, or {vasru} (probably not {se nenri} unless the river is entirely within Budapest)
26 Jan 2010 09:53:01 < sonja> which verb would you use in lojban for i have a dog? do you have to use the one that implies that you own the life form?
26 Jan 2010 09:53:19 < kribacr> verb *explode*
26 Jan 2010 09:53:55 < Arla> heh.
26 Jan 2010 09:54:13 < sonja> oh sorry i forgot to use the lojban magical word for verb.  selbri
26 Jan 2010 09:54:18 < kribacr> selbri aren't verbs.
26 Jan 2010 09:54:42 < kribacr> You could probably use {pendo} to describe your relationship with your dog.
26 Jan 2010 09:55:40 < kribacr> Or {pendo ponse} or something.
26 Jan 2010 09:56:01 < kribacr> Sorry, I'm not trying to be confrontational, it's just that selbri really aren't verbs per se.
26 Jan 2010 09:56:14 < kribacr> to li'a di'a jundi vau .u'i toi
26 Jan 2010 09:56:46 <@xalbo> Legally, you probably do own the dog ({ponse}).  Also, it is a friend ({pendo}), and you care for it ({kurji}).
26 Jan 2010 09:57:58 < kribacr> coi jatna .ii be la .irc. be'o no'u la xalbo
26 Jan 2010 09:59:13 -!- Nuky_ [n=Nuky@ti0054a380-dhcp0918.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
26 Jan 2010 10:00:45 <@xalbo> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 10:01:33 < sonja> it's strange to think of a dog or wife as something you own
26 Jan 2010 10:01:38 < sonja> for me
26 Jan 2010 10:02:11 -!- Hugglesworth [n=raposa@d137-186-182-16.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 10:03:27 <@xalbo> The point is that "have" in many cases isn't the relevant relationship.  And that's why kribacr's rant about "selbri aren't verbs" is relevant.
26 Jan 2010 10:04:10 <@xalbo> If I want to say "I have a wife" I just say {.i mi speni} (unless for some reason I want to stress that my spouse is female).
26 Jan 2010 10:04:42 < kribacr> I'm not being nitpicky. (Well, not just being nitpicky...) Understanding that selbri aren't verbs but can act like them, as well as that they aren't nouns or adjectives but can act like them, is fundamental to understanding lojban.
26 Jan 2010 10:04:59 -!- katt_ja [n=katt_ja@62-20-218-242-no29.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 10:06:28 < kribacr> {pendo} is a case where it morphs reasonably into a verb-like, adjective-like, and noun-like forms. Other selbri don't seem to do so as easily from an English perspective, but they -can- do it.
26 Jan 2010 10:06:30 <@xalbo> I think {srana} might also apply.
26 Jan 2010 10:06:45 < kribacr> la'a zo srana srana
26 Jan 2010 10:06:48 <@xalbo> or {ckini}
26 Jan 2010 10:06:54 -!- lis_nunyn_ [n=leigh@206-248-172-247.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lojban
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26 Jan 2010 10:07:22 < kribacr> .i lei pimlu cu na srana
26 Jan 2010 10:07:53 < LogicalDash> [12:32] <sonja> what if i regularly use something
26 Jan 2010 10:07:53 < LogicalDash> [12:33] <sonja> but am not the legal owner
26 Jan 2010 10:07:58 < LogicalDash> I think you want {ralte}
26 Jan 2010 10:09:55 <@xalbo> that works too
26 Jan 2010 10:11:31 < Arla> I like {kurji pendo} for having a dog.
26 Jan 2010 10:13:51 < kribacr> I hate dogs, so I don't have to worry about this problem. :)
26 Jan 2010 10:17:07 < kribacr> Horrible little dirt creatures of dirt, though they aren't as bad as cats.
26 Jan 2010 10:17:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 10:17:33 -!- sonja [n=sonja@206.248.173.89] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
26 Jan 2010 10:18:37 < Arla> I met two today. They were nice but smelly.
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26 Jan 2010 10:29:50 < kribacr> I've formulated most of my views on the creatures and cultures of the world by watching Invader Zim. So I don't really like dogs. Unless they're robots in dog suits.
26 Jan 2010 10:30:00 < kribacr> But I'm getting off-topic.
26 Jan 2010 10:30:23 < kribacr> I think it's really hard to distance ourself from words like "own" that actually have so many different meanings.
26 Jan 2010 10:31:40 < LogicalDash> when you want to be vague in lojban, you have to be very precise about how vague you want to be
26 Jan 2010 10:34:19 < muiro> lol
26 Jan 2010 10:39:19 < kribacr> Well, I consider that a strength. You have much more control about what you are saying, precisely, in lojban, rather than in English.
26 Jan 2010 10:42:57 < muiro> you have to go out of your way to have people misinterpret what you're saying
26 Jan 2010 10:43:20 -!- selckiku [n=mungojel@c-98-229-3-244.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 10:43:27 < selckiku> coi
26 Jan 2010 10:44:52 < kribacr> coi sy.
26 Jan 2010 10:45:03 < selckiku> coi ky.
26 Jan 2010 10:45:11 < selckiku> .i ma ma mo mo
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26 Jan 2010 10:47:03 < kribacr> .i zi'o zi'o me zi'o me zi'o
26 Jan 2010 10:47:30 < kribacr> bua'a'a
26 Jan 2010 10:50:52 < selckiku> .i .ie mi ji'a co'e zo'e zo'e zi'o
26 Jan 2010 10:52:13 < selckiku> .i lo co'e lo co'e cu co'e zo'e mi .i mi co'e .i mi co'e .i ku'i co'e .ui nai ro'o
26 Jan 2010 10:52:25 -!- cj_ is now known as cj
26 Jan 2010 10:52:27 < selckiku> .i mi ba zi co'e co'e co'e co'e co'e le mabla co'e .ai .a'i
26 Jan 2010 10:53:53 < selckiku> to tolsteci cfika toi
26 Jan 2010 10:54:04 < kribacr> .i xu do co'e lo co'e zo'e
26 Jan 2010 10:54:26 < selckiku> .i le co'e cu pu zu co'e lo melbi co'e zo'e ca le nu ri co'e zo'e le rirxe zo'e zo'e
26 Jan 2010 10:54:36 < kribacr> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 10:54:43 < selckiku> .i mi co'e ro co'e ro da
26 Jan 2010 10:55:48 < kribacr> .i mi go'i
26 Jan 2010 10:56:20 < selckiku> .o'a dai
26 Jan 2010 11:03:36 -!- sonja [n=sonja@206.248.173.89] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 11:03:56 < sonja> thanks logicaldash xalbo and arla
26 Jan 2010 11:04:10 < LogicalDash> je'efi'i
26 Jan 2010 11:06:34 < sonja> is je'efi'i a compound word?
26 Jan 2010 11:07:44 < LogicalDash> no, it's a cmavo cluster. je'e and fi'i are cmavo meaning, respectively, "acknowledged" and "welcome"
26 Jan 2010 11:08:11 < LogicalDash> I could've written a space in between and it wouldn't've changed the meaning.
26 Jan 2010 11:08:16 < LogicalDash> Or the pronunciation for that matter.
26 Jan 2010 11:08:19 < sonja> i tried to vregister on lojban.org but i didnt get the confirmation email yet. does it normally take a while?
26 Jan 2010 11:11:17 -!- daniskami [n=daniel@e178050211.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit []
26 Jan 2010 11:12:47 < sonja> je'e fi'i = you're welcome. make yourself at home.
26 Jan 2010 11:13:19 < sonja> i am your guest
26 Jan 2010 11:13:52 < sonja> i guess that's an anglicism?
26 Jan 2010 11:16:04 < LogicalDash> fi'i is also what you would say when you're welcoming someone to this channel, even if you haven't done anything for them yet.
26 Jan 2010 11:16:13 < LogicalDash> And je'e is also what you say when you're accepting an order.
26 Jan 2010 11:16:26 < LogicalDash> Put them together and you have something like "you're welcome".
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26 Jan 2010 11:22:06 < sonja> ki'e
26 Jan 2010 11:25:00 < kribacr> Clustering doesn't change the meaning of any of the words involved.
26 Jan 2010 11:25:27 < kribacr> And yes {je'e} is more of a "You're welcome!" (as in replying to thanks) - {fi'i} is hospitality.
26 Jan 2010 11:28:22 < sonja> only structure words can be clustered?
26 Jan 2010 11:28:36 < kribacr> Only cmavo, yes. I really dislike the process.
26 Jan 2010 11:28:40 < kribacr> I don't cluster anything.
26 Jan 2010 11:29:11 < kribacr> I can maybe see the value of doing it with numbers.
26 Jan 2010 11:30:19 < kribacr> It's a commonly perpetuated meme that clustering somehow changes the meaning.
26 Jan 2010 11:34:51 < sonja> is there a root word for nigeria?
26 Jan 2010 11:35:06  * timonator hates root words for cultures
26 Jan 2010 11:35:59 < kribacr> Unlikely.
26 Jan 2010 11:36:02 < sonja> we have scottish and greek
26 Jan 2010 11:36:51 < kribacr> I wish they had done the culture thing otherwise. Nevertheless, there's no harm in making a simple fu'ivla for Nigeria.
26 Jan 2010 11:37:00 < sonja> lojban is culturally neutral
26 Jan 2010 11:37:02 < kribacr> (Assuming one does not exist already, which it seems there isn't one)
26 Jan 2010 11:37:21 < sonja> according to the brochure
26 Jan 2010 11:38:00 < kribacr> I can't speak for the ones who made the language. Morphologically in terms of the gismu, it is culturally neutral within reasonable means.
26 Jan 2010 11:38:20 < kribacr> As far as which cultures / religions / whatever have gismu and which don't, it's not as big of a deal as you might think. Again, there's always {fu'ivla}.
26 Jan 2010 11:39:14 < sonja> so root words are not conssidered more valuable real estate than comkpound words
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26 Jan 2010 11:40:11 < kribacr> I wouldn't say so - I mean, they're all selbri. The only difference is that fu'ivla won't have rafsi.
26 Jan 2010 11:40:13 < timonator> fu'ivla aren't compound words, they're loanwords
26 Jan 2010 11:40:34 < sonja> oh sorry
26 Jan 2010 11:40:59 < kribacr> Assuming Nigerians call themselves Nigerians or something phoenetically similar, coming up with a fu'ivla will take a bit of stretching as it lacks a consonant cluster.
26 Jan 2010 11:42:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit []
26 Jan 2010 11:42:41 <@xalbo> Well, {dj} is a cluster.
26 Jan 2010 11:42:45 < kribacr> Though I suppose the "g" would be more like {dj}, on further thinking.
26 Jan 2010 11:42:46 < kribacr> Yeah.
26 Jan 2010 11:42:50 < kribacr> Skipped over that.
26 Jan 2010 11:43:01 < sonja> yeah loanwords. you guys keep using lojbans words in the mmiddle of english sentences
26 Jan 2010 11:43:25 < kribacr> :)
26 Jan 2010 11:44:44 < kribacr> Blarg, the most convenient form CVCCVCV won't work because it has to be a CVC/CVCV, which *{nidjira} isn't. :(
26 Jan 2010 11:45:13 < sonja> what are the most recent root words to be officialized?
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26 Jan 2010 11:45:37 <@xalbo> {naijro} or {naidjro} seem pretty nice to me, knowing as little as I do.
26 Jan 2010 11:45:42 < kribacr> As far as I know, none have been officialized, but we use {kibro}
26 Jan 2010 11:45:53 < kribacr> And xalbo, what was the one that means "anticipate" or something?
26 Jan 2010 11:46:01 <@xalbo> kanpe
26 Jan 2010 11:46:31 < kribacr> That's right. I remembered it also started with a {k}.
26 Jan 2010 11:46:57 < kribacr> Oh, right! I forgot CVVCCV works. Yeah, {naijro} looks fine.
26 Jan 2010 11:47:29 < sonja> before kibro was added how did you say internets?
26 Jan 2010 11:48:10 <@xalbo> Poorly.
26 Jan 2010 11:48:13 < kribacr> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 11:48:37 < kribacr> Are those the only two experimental gismu?
26 Jan 2010 11:48:38 <@xalbo> ISTR there were multiple lujvo flying around.
26 Jan 2010 11:48:46 < kribacr> We have tons of joke gismu we throw around, too.
26 Jan 2010 11:48:49 < kribacr> Should probably stop that.
26 Jan 2010 11:49:00 < kribacr> Especially because some gismu look like joke ones but aren't.
26 Jan 2010 11:49:06 < kribacr> {crane}, {since}, {santa}.
26 Jan 2010 11:50:02 < sonja> i like pensi ... same as esperanto
26 Jan 2010 11:50:30 < kribacr> I remember {crane} because it looks like an English word and I always remember its counterpart {trixe} from the dead parrot sketch.
26 Jan 2010 11:51:15 < sonja> why is crane a joke?
26 Jan 2010 11:51:38 < kribacr> That's the thing, it's not a joke.
26 Jan 2010 11:51:42 <@xalbo> It's not a joke, but {crane} is a gismu and "crane" is an English word.
26 Jan 2010 11:51:49 < kribacr> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crane
26 Jan 2010 11:51:58 < kribacr> Same thing with {since} and {santa}.
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26 Jan 2010 11:57:03 < sonja> brb
26 Jan 2010 11:57:09 -!- sonja [n=sonja@206.248.173.89] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
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26 Jan 2010 11:58:42 < sonja_> :D
26 Jan 2010 11:58:49 -!- sonja_ is now known as Sonja
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26 Jan 2010 12:14:32 < Sonja> is htere no 'ou' diphthong in lojban?
26 Jan 2010 12:15:12 < Sonja> i find it amusing that the Lojban and Esperanto words for htink are both 'pensi'. do you know any other fun coincidences?
26 Jan 2010 12:16:34 < timonator> if you switch s and i in "pensi" you get "penis", which is the english word for something you really can't think with
26 Jan 2010 12:18:10 < Sonja> are there any lojban words htat look a lot like their englis counterpart?
26 Jan 2010 12:19:00 < Sonja> penis is a word in esperanto meaning "made efforts to"
26 Jan 2010 12:21:00 < kribacr> {sfofa} comes to mind.
26 Jan 2010 12:21:03 < kribacr> {sodva} as well.
26 Jan 2010 12:22:11 < kribacr> {cakla} maybe.
26 Jan 2010 12:22:40 <@xalbo> There are a lot that are similar, often with what seems like an extra sound thrown in.
26 Jan 2010 12:22:43 <@xalbo> ckafi
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26 Jan 2010 12:23:08 <@xalbo> birje, barja
26 Jan 2010 12:24:00 < kribacr> ckule
26 Jan 2010 12:24:25 < muiro> I like this channel.
26 Jan 2010 12:24:42 <@xalbo> birje, barja, konju, someone's going to think we're just taking words and adding random -jV syllables.
26 Jan 2010 12:25:01 < muiro> smaller than other conlang channels, more activity
26 Jan 2010 12:25:30 <@xalbo> "I drank plenty of birje at the barja, now flash me your tatru and I'll give you some bidju."
26 Jan 2010 12:25:39 < kribacr> .u'i
26 Jan 2010 12:26:09 < kribacr> claxu / clani / cladu maybe
26 Jan 2010 12:26:17 <@xalbo> muiro: we exist to amuse you.
26 Jan 2010 12:26:30 < kribacr> I want to make "kinda" and "sorta" into gismu.
26 Jan 2010 12:26:35 < kribacr> Though the meanings would be similar.
26 Jan 2010 12:26:50 < muiro> xalbo: you are doing a fantastic job
26 Jan 2010 12:27:14 <@xalbo> Give them completely incompatible place structures, so that everyone gets confused.
26 Jan 2010 12:27:19 < kribacr> lol
26 Jan 2010 12:27:27 <@xalbo> Like {steba} and {fanza}.
26 Jan 2010 12:27:28 < kribacr> "crime" too.
26 Jan 2010 12:28:16 < kribacr> It's hard to look at words like that any more and not immediately think "gismu".
26 Jan 2010 12:28:38 < muiro> xalbo: I meant to imply that my first glimpses into this community are positive
26 Jan 2010 12:28:40 < timonator> muiro: what conlang channels are bigger than this except for the insanely and inexplicably popular esperanto? ;)
26 Jan 2010 12:28:49 < muiro> timonator: I meant specifically that one
26 Jan 2010 12:29:07 < kribacr> muiro: We argue a lot. Well, more like debating, I suppose. But we're pretty close and we try to have fun.
26 Jan 2010 12:29:21 < kribacr> The language is so easy to learn! It stays fun if you stick with it.
26 Jan 2010 12:29:31 < timonator> heh, well, there are far more conlangs, so i think maybe "channels" was improper use of plural :D
26 Jan 2010 12:29:38 < Sonja> i don't go in #tokipona very often. it's not that busy.
26 Jan 2010 12:30:01 < muiro> timonator: I was being purposefully ambiguous
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26 Jan 2010 12:31:40 <@xalbo> See, if you'd said it in lojban, you wouldn't have needed to make the singular/plural distinction.  :)
26 Jan 2010 12:31:52 -!- mefistofeles [n=Tathar@unaffiliated/mefistofeles] has quit ["leaving"]
26 Jan 2010 12:32:05 < muiro> I've been studying esperanto off and on for around 8 years now. I knew about Lojban a good while ago, but balked at my perception of its complexity.
26 Jan 2010 12:32:20 < kribacr> It's deceptively simple.
26 Jan 2010 12:32:30 < kribacr> Once you understand selbri / sumti / bridi, the rest is gravy.
26 Jan 2010 12:32:41 < muiro> now that I've taken the time to look into it, I think I'll have fun learning it
26 Jan 2010 12:32:48 < kribacr> Sort of an "easy to learn, hard to master" thing.
26 Jan 2010 12:32:56 < Sonja> selbri being verbs (or predicates), sumti nouns and bridi are like clauses?
26 Jan 2010 12:33:16 < kribacr> Hurk, I really hate myself for not having got off my ass and done more work on my new material.
26 Jan 2010 12:33:19 < muiro> Sonja: as far as I'm gathering, not really
26 Jan 2010 12:33:42 < kribacr> selbri are the predicates, they act as the noun/adjective/verb, sumti are the arguments that describe the predicate, and the bridi is the whole relationship.
26 Jan 2010 12:34:25 < Sonja> i find it easier to think of selbri as verbs and sumti as nouns
26 Jan 2010 12:34:34 < Sonja> but lojbanists tend to get freaked out when i suggest this
26 Jan 2010 12:34:41 < muiro> actually, I just realized why I thought lojban was incredibly difficult before. Since I've first looked into it, I've become a programmer by proffession.
26 Jan 2010 12:34:57 < muiro> and now it makes more sense
26 Jan 2010 12:35:13 < Sonja> which programming languages do you use muiro?
26 Jan 2010 12:35:21 < kribacr> It's because it's not right. I'm sorry to be a stickler, but it's just not correct.
26 Jan 2010 12:35:47 < muiro> Sonja: It depends on what needs to be done. I know a stock of them, some of which I know quite well.
26 Jan 2010 12:35:59 < kribacr> No language that I know of has selbri by function.
26 Jan 2010 12:36:10 < kribacr> (other than lojbo bangu obviously)
26 Jan 2010 12:36:12 < Sonja> mi cilre la rubis
26 Jan 2010 12:36:21 < Sonja> do i need to use x3 for Ruby?
26 Jan 2010 12:36:37 <@xalbo> What I've found is that for some people, the noun/verb/sentence thing helps them (gives them something to tie to, where "predicate" means no more to them than {selbri} in the first place), and for others its misleading.
26 Jan 2010 12:36:41 < timonator> yeah, but why not use tadni instead?
26 Jan 2010 12:36:51 < kribacr> Yes, x3.
26 Jan 2010 12:36:51 < muiro> Sonja: I know more individual programming languages than I know words in lojban, unfortunately, lol
26 Jan 2010 12:37:07 < timonator> cilre is more like "acquiring a piece of widom about a topic" but tadni is just "spend time learning stuff about"
26 Jan 2010 12:37:26 < Sonja> tadni = to be a student of x2. is x2 the teacher or the subject?
26 Jan 2010 12:37:34 < kribacr> The subject.
26 Jan 2010 12:37:36 < timonator> no, x2 is just the subject
26 Jan 2010 12:37:48 < Sonja> how can you know that? just from experience?
26 Jan 2010 12:37:53 < kribacr> I don't mind talking about selbri with the potential for being a noun/verb/whatever.
26 Jan 2010 12:38:04 < timonator> for a teacher you'd use ctuca, which also has the topic and the learner
26 Jan 2010 12:38:25 < kribacr> It's just that drawing a direct comparison is a bad thing. Especially considering color words or animals or any other number of things.
26 Jan 2010 12:38:39 < Sonja> so if i want to tell people htat i'm learning lojban, i have to decide between the verb htat means learn and the one that means study
26 Jan 2010 12:38:52 < muiro> Sonja: you have to do that in english
26 Jan 2010 12:39:03 < timonator> oh, good point, i didn't even consider the x2 of tadni to be a person
26 Jan 2010 12:39:18 < Sonja> kumte = camelid
26 Jan 2010 12:39:27 < kribacr> It's worded a bit deceptively - Sonja has a point. All brings us back to needing to re-write the gismu list. ><
26 Jan 2010 12:39:33 < timonator> i would think if you put a person into the x2 it'd be more like "i study what humphrey bogart did" or so
26 Jan 2010 12:39:53 < kribacr> When changing English into lojban, you really have to make a point to not go for a literal 1-to-1 translation and instead first think of what you -mean-, not the words you are using to say it.
26 Jan 2010 12:39:59 < Sonja> the definition in the list of root words was a bit ambiguous to me what goes in x2
26 Jan 2010 12:40:12 < Sonja> but thanks for verbally expalining it
26 Jan 2010 12:40:14 <@xalbo> Typically, when there are slashes you can read it as any of them, so with "x1 studies x2" is as valid as "x1 is a student of x2".  That definitely seems to be subject, not teacher.
26 Jan 2010 12:40:26 < Sonja> yeah
26 Jan 2010 12:40:30 < kribacr> You are right, though the base word being "study" does kinda point towards it being a subject and not a person.
26 Jan 2010 12:40:34 < timonator> true
26 Jan 2010 12:40:45 < timonator> thank xalbo!
26 Jan 2010 12:40:47 < Sonja> what's the difference between "i'm studyign lojban" and "i'm learning lojban"
26 Jan 2010 12:41:00 < Sonja> one s the action i take, hte ohter is the result ?
26 Jan 2010 12:41:05 < kribacr> Kinda.
26 Jan 2010 12:41:17 < timonator> it's a different shade of green ;)
26 Jan 2010 12:41:24 < kribacr> The thing is that {tadni} is studying a subject and {cilre} involves the x2, which is the fact or facts you learned.
26 Jan 2010 12:41:30 < timonator> at least until you specify the x2 of cilre as well
26 Jan 2010 12:41:35 < kribacr> So you would use {cilre} if you were talking about specific things that you were learning.
26 Jan 2010 12:41:42 <@xalbo> I can see {tadni} being something like {ca'o cilre zi'o fo zi'o zi'o}
26 Jan 2010 12:41:59 < Sonja> ahhh so the x2 of learn is a fact
26 Jan 2010 12:42:00 < kribacr> The other places have to be filled too!
26 Jan 2010 12:42:06 < kribacr> Even if with {zo'e}.
26 Jan 2010 12:42:24 < kribacr> So {cilre} implies facts that are learned, even if unstated. So better to use that if you're shooting towards that.
26 Jan 2010 12:43:16 < foaly_> Maybe for studying they mean taking a close look at something, that would make sense if I read it right
26 Jan 2010 12:43:28 < foaly_> Something or someone
26 Jan 2010 12:43:40 < kribacr> .ue coi fy.
26 Jan 2010 12:43:47 < kribacr> Hi! Another new visitor. O_O
26 Jan 2010 12:43:53 < muiro> so {cilre} would be like "I learned about putters, drivers and tees" and {tadni} would be "I learned about golf"
26 Jan 2010 12:44:02 < kribacr> Yeah, I think that's fair.
26 Jan 2010 12:44:17 < timonator> sounds appropriate, yes
26 Jan 2010 12:44:26 < Sonja> but you can use cilre and skip to x3 to put golf in there
26 Jan 2010 12:44:37 < kribacr> You can study, but not learn something.
26 Jan 2010 12:44:39 < Sonja> using the structure word that says "jump to argument 3"
26 Jan 2010 12:44:41 < kribacr> And you can learn somethign without studying it.
26 Jan 2010 12:44:44 <@xalbo> Probably a "that" is appropriate.  "x1 learns that x2 is true about x3, from source x4 by method x5"
26 Jan 2010 12:45:13 < muiro> kribacr: but doesn't that sort of imply undefined meaning into the words?
26 Jan 2010 12:45:14 < Sonja> learning can also be a skill
26 Jan 2010 12:45:17 < Sonja> to learn to sew
26 Jan 2010 12:45:22 < Sonja> to learn to swim
26 Jan 2010 12:45:30 < timonator> i'd say cilre is intentionally sitting in front of a maths textbook for hours
26 Jan 2010 12:45:34 < timonator> no, tadni
26 Jan 2010 12:45:35 < timonator> sorry
26 Jan 2010 12:46:09 <@xalbo> "learn" can mean "acquire a skill".  {cilre}, on the other hand, is about acquiring knowledge.
26 Jan 2010 12:46:13 < timonator> and cilre is like burning your fingers because you touched a hot frying pan
26 Jan 2010 12:46:13 < kribacr> .i mi cilre lo du'u lo mamta be la xalbo be'o ku se ke barda tatru
26 Jan 2010 12:46:48  * foaly_ hmms
26 Jan 2010 12:47:13 <@xalbo> Again, don't just latch onto a single word and say "Oh, {cilre} means 'learn'".  It doesn't.  It has the whole place structure, always.
26 Jan 2010 12:47:28 < Sonja> yes of course
26 Jan 2010 12:47:35 < Sonja> but i only need to use those arguments if i need them
26 Jan 2010 12:47:50 < kribacr> You only need to -say- them if you want to.
26 Jan 2010 12:48:01 < kribacr> {cilre} has 5 places that must be filled with something, or it's not {cilre}.
26 Jan 2010 12:48:06 < Sonja> so maybe in the rewrite of the root word list, specify that the x2 of cilre is knowledge
26 Jan 2010 12:48:09 < muiro> oh, I just read the difinitions of tadni and cilre. I think that makes their meanings clear
26 Jan 2010 12:48:22 < kribacr> xalbo: I think I have to find good ways to drive that very point about the whole place structure being important no matter what.
26 Jan 2010 12:48:33 < Sonja> who is working on updating the root word list and definitions?
26 Jan 2010 12:48:55 < kribacr> We should set that up on wave or etherpad or something.
26 Jan 2010 12:49:09 < muiro> what about using a software sourcing system?
26 Jan 2010 12:49:30 <@xalbo> The x2 of {cilre} is explicitly a {du'u}, which is always a predicate.  So the fact that it's knowledge is right there.
26 Jan 2010 12:49:37 < Sonja> ohhh
26 Jan 2010 12:49:50 < Sonja> i'm just not advanced enough to know that doohoos are knowledge
26 Jan 2010 12:50:00 < kribacr> lol "doohoo"
26 Jan 2010 12:50:00 < lis_nunyn_> coi
26 Jan 2010 12:50:12 < kribacr> Turned to the Dark Side, Doohoo has.
26 Jan 2010 12:50:31 < kribacr> "doothoo"
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26 Jan 2010 12:50:53 < kribacr> coi .lis.nunyn.
26 Jan 2010 12:51:15 < lis_nunyn_> .ui
26 Jan 2010 12:51:21 < Sonja> some people pronounce {'} as dental fricative?
26 Jan 2010 12:51:25 < Sonja> that's nonstandard right?
26 Jan 2010 12:51:27 < kribacr> You can.
26 Jan 2010 12:51:32 < kribacr> It's completely allowed and correct.
26 Jan 2010 12:51:41 < kribacr> Assuming that I can remember what  dental fricative is.
26 Jan 2010 12:51:43 < kribacr> Fucking IPA nerds.
26 Jan 2010 12:51:48 < kribacr> "th" as in "thin"
26 Jan 2010 12:51:54 < kribacr> That's acceptable as {'}.
26 Jan 2010 12:52:31 < muiro> lol, the IPA is fun.
26 Jan 2010 12:52:41 < kribacr> For IPA nerds it is. :P
26 Jan 2010 12:52:42  * foaly_ is confused.
26 Jan 2010 12:52:50 < foaly_> :)
26 Jan 2010 12:52:58 < muiro> kribacr: and lojban is not for nerds?
26 Jan 2010 12:52:58 < Sonja> how else can you describe phones?
26 Jan 2010 12:53:04 < kribacr> .i de'a co'e do'e lo nu co'e
26 Jan 2010 12:53:04 < Sonja> you have to use phonetic terms
26 Jan 2010 12:53:16 < lis_nunyn_> by saying th as in thin
26 Jan 2010 12:53:19 < Sonja> what source is the final authority on which pronunc8iations are correct?
26 Jan 2010 12:53:28 < Sonja> lis_nunyn_: that works for english speakers
26 Jan 2010 12:53:34 <@xalbo> "It's red, and when I pick up this part, I speak to Batman" ← how I describe phones
26 Jan 2010 12:53:35 < Sonja> but then you have to specify which dialect of english
26 Jan 2010 12:54:20 <@xalbo> IPA is great.  I just wish I were better at it.
26 Jan 2010 12:54:23 < lis_nunyn_> I know. I was sort of trying to make the point that you do it kinda poorly.
26 Jan 2010 12:54:28 < Sonja> the r can be any rhotic, but alveolar trill is preferred?
26 Jan 2010 12:54:54 < muiro> lis_nunyn_: only the unvoiced? or does voiced work too?
26 Jan 2010 12:55:11 <@xalbo> {'} has to be unvoiced.
26 Jan 2010 12:55:27 < muiro> alright
26 Jan 2010 12:55:41 < Sonja> can be [h] or [T] (forgive my use of x-sampa)
26 Jan 2010 12:55:46 < muiro> is there a perceived ideal of {'}?
26 Jan 2010 12:55:47 <@xalbo> foaly_: What is confusing you?  Perhaps we can help.
26 Jan 2010 12:57:12 <@xalbo> [h] is by far the most common pronunciation (unless that symbol doesn't mean what I think it means)
26 Jan 2010 12:57:16 < Sonja> what source is the authority on what pronunciations aer preferred or recommended?
26 Jan 2010 12:57:35 <@xalbo> CLL
26 Jan 2010 12:57:55 < lis_nunyn_> Sonja: I had a thought recently about that meaning-from-place-structure thing that I find helpful
26 Jan 2010 12:58:00 < Sonja> the big red book from the 90s?
26 Jan 2010 12:58:19 < lis_nunyn_> (to backtrack a little)
26 Jan 2010 12:58:31 < Sonja> lis_nunyn_:  teach me it
26 Jan 2010 12:58:38 <@xalbo> Yeah.   A few copies are the web, but I think that section tends to be mangled (stupid pre-Unicode)
26 Jan 2010 12:58:41 < Sonja> xalbo: it means what you think
26 Jan 2010 12:59:02 < lis_nunyn_> Just that English does it too, only makes less of a fuss about it.
26 Jan 2010 12:59:22 < foaly_> xalbo: All this talk of IPAs, dialects and other stuff
26 Jan 2010 12:59:56 < lis_nunyn_> The difference between 'speak' and 'talk' is just that generally speaking you speak to someone and talk about something
26 Jan 2010 12:59:57 <@xalbo> Ahh.  Sorry, we geek out quickly.
26 Jan 2010 13:00:04 < kribacr> English has a "place structure" that just happens to almost always be SVO.
26 Jan 2010 13:00:35  * foaly_ nods
26 Jan 2010 13:00:53 <@xalbo> English verbs have frames.  Which propositional objects they allow, and what uses they put them to, need to be learned just as much as lojban place structure.
26 Jan 2010 13:00:59 < Sonja> so the dental pronunciation of {'} is non-standard, simply
26 Jan 2010 13:01:22 < kribacr> I would say "non-popular". It's not less correct.
26 Jan 2010 13:01:22 <@xalbo> http://jbotcan.org/cllc/c3/s2.html
26 Jan 2010 13:02:16 < kribacr> I prefer to speak quickly, so I prefer the short breathy "h" sound.
26 Jan 2010 13:02:17 < foaly_> mmm the cll
26 Jan 2010 13:02:19 <@xalbo> and the next page
26 Jan 2010 13:02:47 <@xalbo> so [h] is the standard, but "As a permitted variant, any unvoiced fricative other than those already used in Lojban may be used to render the apostrophe: IPA [T] is one possibility. "
26 Jan 2010 13:02:56 < timonator> sipna co'o rodo
26 Jan 2010 13:03:12 < kribacr> co'o sipna co senva be lo pluka
26 Jan 2010 13:03:36 < timonator> ba'a pluka
26 Jan 2010 13:03:47 < kribacr> xu mamta
26 Jan 2010 13:03:54 < timonator> na go'i
26 Jan 2010 13:03:54 < Sonja> that page doesn't mention the dental pronunciation of {'}
26 Jan 2010 13:03:55 < timonator> ckana
26 Jan 2010 13:04:35 <@xalbo> try http://jbotcan.org/cllc/c3/s3.html
26 Jan 2010 13:04:41 < kribacr> Any unused unvoiced fricative works. Dental is one of them.
26 Jan 2010 13:04:42 <@xalbo> sorry, looks like it's in two sections
26 Jan 2010 13:05:49 < Sonja> ohh i see it
26 Jan 2010 13:05:54 < Sonja> so i could use a uvular fricative
26 Jan 2010 13:06:34 < muiro> weird
26 Jan 2010 13:06:53 < Melvar> I don’t think so: it’s very similar to the velar fricative {x}.
26 Jan 2010 13:07:24 < kribacr> uvular fricative? Is that like that thing you do when you clean your glasses off?
26 Jan 2010 13:07:30 < Sonja> the [h] sound is very similar sounding to [x]
26 Jan 2010 13:08:05 < Melvar> What’s in the middle between them is probably [ħ].
26 Jan 2010 13:08:25 < Sonja> Melvar:  i can't see your unicode. what symbol was hat?
26 Jan 2010 13:08:27 < Sonja> that?
26 Jan 2010 13:08:29 < muiro> xrymbos: uvular fricative are like... death rattles
26 Jan 2010 13:08:43 < Melvar> And [χ] is on the [x] side of [ħ].
26 Jan 2010 13:09:34 < muiro> xrymbos: sorry, targeted wrong person
26 Jan 2010 13:09:44 < muiro> kribacr: uvular fricative are like... death rattles
26 Jan 2010 13:09:57 < Melvar> h bar, chi, x, h bar.
26 Jan 2010 13:09:58 < Sonja> melvar can you translate your unicode ipa symbols to x-sampa or verbal descriptions? i can't see unicode on this terminal
26 Jan 2010 13:10:02 < Sonja> thanks
26 Jan 2010 13:10:21 < kribacr> I just listened to a sound sample. I suppose it's fine as long as it's an unused unvoiced fricative.
26 Jan 2010 13:10:58 < Sonja> i'll stick to [h] since it seems to be the standard or normally recommended one
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26 Jan 2010 13:13:04 < Sonja> is there no {ou} diphthong because Americans find it hard to distinguish it from {o}
26 Jan 2010 13:13:07 < Sonja> ?
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26 Jan 2010 13:14:25 < kribacr> I'm not sure if that's why.
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26 Jan 2010 13:16:08 < Arla> :( I was told there is a {ou} diphtong.
26 Jan 2010 13:16:11 < Arla> I think.
26 Jan 2010 13:16:41 < Arla> no, sorry, I wasn't.
26 Jan 2010 13:16:51 < Arla> it was uo.
26 Jan 2010 13:17:03 < Arla> which is "no" upside down.
26 Jan 2010 13:17:21 < Arla> uh.
26 Jan 2010 13:18:05 < lis_nunyn_> Pardon the ignorance, but what sound do you mean by ou?
26 Jan 2010 13:18:18 < sam_tceipn> Sonja: Anglo that I am, I'm not even sure what sound you're proposing with an "ou" dipthong, but note that It's valid to pronounce any of the vowels with rounded lips, not just "o" and "u" as in English.
26 Jan 2010 13:18:29 < sam_tceipn> Would one of them overlap with the sound you're thinking of?
26 Jan 2010 13:19:26 < Arla> {ou} is like "ow" in "flow", right? Kinda.
26 Jan 2010 13:19:53 < lis_nunyn_> Ok, that's what I thought.
26 Jan 2010 13:20:26 < lis_nunyn_> It's hard not to read it as a French ou.
26 Jan 2010 13:20:44 < Sonja> french ou is lojban u
26 Jan 2010 13:20:48 < lis_nunyn_> Yes.
26 Jan 2010 13:20:50 < Melvar> I think it would sound quite funny if one rounded all vowels.
26 Jan 2010 13:21:14 < Sonja> i can round {i} to an [y] sound like french "u" ?
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26 Jan 2010 13:22:22 < Melvar> Yes, and {u} is allowed to be [M], if I am not mistaken.
26 Jan 2010 13:22:24 < lis_nunyn_> That would be strange.
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26 Jan 2010 13:23:00 < lis_nunyn_> What's [M]?
26 Jan 2010 13:23:25 < Melvar> [ɯ], a close back unrounded vowel.
26 Jan 2010 13:23:53 < Melvar> It occurs, for example, in Turkish, where it is written as <ı> (dotless I)
26 Jan 2010 13:24:47 < Sonja> melvar what languages od you speak?
26 Jan 2010 13:26:08 < Melvar> Mainly German and English, some pieces of French and smaller bits of Latin, Spanish, and Tagalog are also in there.
26 Jan 2010 13:26:17 < Sonja> geil!
26 Jan 2010 13:26:33 < Melvar> Not to mention Lojban, which I know almost as much as French now.
26 Jan 2010 13:26:51 < muiro> {ou} is like... a dirty, lazy {o}
26 Jan 2010 13:26:57 < Sonja> do dotco
26 Jan 2010 13:27:03 < Sonja> muiro for an american
26 Jan 2010 13:27:13 < Sonja> but {ei} is not a dirty, lazy {i}
26 Jan 2010 13:27:24 < Sonja> or {e} rather
26 Jan 2010 13:27:25 < Melvar> go'i
26 Jan 2010 13:27:27 < muiro> Sonja: I didn't mean to imply that all dipthongs are lazy, lol
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26 Jan 2010 13:28:56 < Sonja> are there any false friends where {ei} vs {e} makes the difference in the word?
26 Jan 2010 13:29:21 < lis_nunyn_> Is the answer to xu do dotco still go'i?
26 Jan 2010 13:29:26 < muiro> Sonja: also, my description of {ou} is probably influenced by my singing training
26 Jan 2010 13:29:33 < treed> I haven't seen any actual ones, but you could make some up
26 Jan 2010 13:29:40 < treed> mutce vs mutcei, frinst
26 Jan 2010 13:29:47 < treed> mutcei would be immaterial-god
26 Jan 2010 13:29:54 < treed> Which is actually pretty sensical.
26 Jan 2010 13:29:55 < kribacr> treed: Haha, I was just thinking of {mutce} vs {mutcei}.
26 Jan 2010 13:30:12 < treed> kribacr: Probably because mutcei instead of mutce is such a common error.
26 Jan 2010 13:30:17 < treed> Due to mutce being so common.
26 Jan 2010 13:30:33 < kribacr> Yar. It's like trying to pronounce it like an Italian or something.
26 Jan 2010 13:31:05 < kribacr> I had to break myself of {sumti} -> {sympti} and then {sumpti}.
26 Jan 2010 13:31:35 < Melvar> Any Ce cmavo vs. the corresponding Cei one.
26 Jan 2010 13:31:54 < Sonja> what is mutcei ?
26 Jan 2010 13:32:01 < treed> 13:29 < treed> mutcei would be immaterial-god
26 Jan 2010 13:32:28 < Sonja> mutcei is a common compound word?
26 Jan 2010 13:32:36 < treed> Nope.
26 Jan 2010 13:32:50 < treed> I just said that I'm not aware of any actual issues.
26 Jan 2010 13:32:56 < treed> You could compose some
26 Jan 2010 13:33:28 < lis_nunyn_> I don't find e / ei difficult to distinguish. Is this a common problem?
26 Jan 2010 13:33:38 < treed> lis_nunyn_: It's not a distinguishing issue.
26 Jan 2010 13:33:41 < treed> It's a production issue.
26 Jan 2010 13:33:46 < kribacr> I know Americans will want to do that initially.
26 Jan 2010 13:33:53 < kribacr> Just like dropping final {a} to {y}.
26 Jan 2010 13:33:56 < treed> Americans have... yeah
26 Jan 2010 13:33:56 < lis_nunyn_> ah
26 Jan 2010 13:33:58 < treed> those two issues
26 Jan 2010 13:34:07 < treed> or any unstressed a to y
26 Jan 2010 13:34:08 < kribacr> And rounding the {o} to {ou}.
26 Jan 2010 13:34:10 < Sonja> how do you say "americans are special" in lojban? :)
26 Jan 2010 13:34:12 <@xalbo> {re} and {rei} are both digits, though {rei} is rare.
26 Jan 2010 13:34:12 < kribacr> Yeah.
26 Jan 2010 13:34:32 < kribacr> Oh, here we go, American linguistic bashing. Haven't heard that before.
26 Jan 2010 13:35:25 < kribacr> I also wonder if {t} -> {d} occurs at all.
26 Jan 2010 13:35:34 < kribacr> Like in the English word "stated".
26 Jan 2010 13:35:55 < kribacr> Pronounced more like "stay-did"
26 Jan 2010 13:36:04 < Sonja> that's an alveolar tap
26 Jan 2010 13:36:13 < Sonja> or flap
26 Jan 2010 13:36:34 < treed> or medial t becoming a glottal stop could be a problem too
26 Jan 2010 13:36:54 < kribacr> treed: Example?
26 Jan 2010 13:37:04 < Sonja> especially in british english
26 Jan 2010 13:37:05 < kribacr> You mean like {jetfu}?
26 Jan 2010 13:37:07 < Sonja> bottle
26 Jan 2010 13:37:09 < treed> I think that's more common in UK English.
26 Jan 2010 13:37:09 < treed> Yeah.
26 Jan 2010 13:37:10 < kribacr> Oh, that.
26 Jan 2010 13:37:11 < kribacr> Yeah.
26 Jan 2010 13:37:18 < kribacr> {jetfu} - the dental stop is fine for {t} IIRC.
26 Jan 2010 13:37:27 < treed> For us it tends to become a d, for them it tends to become a glottal stop.
26 Jan 2010 13:37:40 < kribacr> Indeed.
26 Jan 2010 13:38:59 < Sonja> malcoi!
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26 Jan 2010 13:39:09 < kribacr> .ua nai
26 Jan 2010 13:39:48 < treed> fucking-deepthing?
26 Jan 2010 13:40:02 < treed> I think that was some malspero
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26 Jan 2010 13:41:13 < kribacr> Probably.
26 Jan 2010 13:45:40 < lis_nunyn_> What is a malspero?
26 Jan 2010 13:46:22 < Melvar> .oicimeilo'irAfsibezocOndi
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26 Jan 2010 13:51:49 <@xalbo> .oinomeifime'okúntibulosecúskubedo
26 Jan 2010 13:52:33 <@xalbo> zo condi .e zo bloti se rafsi lo te ci mei
26 Jan 2010 13:52:44 < lis_nunyn_> uanai
26 Jan 2010 13:54:15 <@xalbo> We're speaking without spaces.  I don't know why.  He started it.
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26 Jan 2010 13:54:28 <@xalbo> and mine doesn't even make sense.  Argh.
26 Jan 2010 13:54:41 < kribacr> Speaking with no brivla is much more entertaining!
26 Jan 2010 13:54:44 < lis_nunyn_> Yeah. I got so far as no-spaces.
26 Jan 2010 13:55:01 < lis_nunyn_> But beyond that I'm lost.
26 Jan 2010 13:55:16 < lis_nunyn_> Don't worry about it though.
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26 Jan 2010 13:55:48 < lis_nunyn_> I'm new enough at this that I just expect to mostly be lost.
26 Jan 2010 13:56:23 < Melvar> I complained that “condi” has three rafsi.
26 Jan 2010 13:56:35 < lis_nunyn_> ah
26 Jan 2010 13:56:50 < lis_nunyn_> That is odd.
26 Jan 2010 13:57:02 < lis_nunyn_> Why would it need to do that?
26 Jan 2010 13:57:11 < Melvar> Or rather, that a cardinality of three is had by the set of rafsi for “condi”
26 Jan 2010 13:57:29 < lis_nunyn_> Ah.
26 Jan 2010 13:58:52 < lis_nunyn_> In fact, why are multiple rafsi useful at all (except where one ends in a consonant)
26 Jan 2010 13:59:09 < lis_nunyn_> ?
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26 Jan 2010 14:00:22 < treed> lis_nunyn_: Different building rules.
26 Jan 2010 14:00:24 < treed> well
26 Jan 2010 14:00:34 < treed> some rafsi can't be used in some situations because of the rules
26 Jan 2010 14:00:45 < treed> so you end up using the 4 or 5 letter
26 Jan 2010 14:02:10 < Melvar> In the gimste, exactly the entries “bloti”, “condi”, and “rotsu” have three rafsi each.
26 Jan 2010 14:02:26 <@xalbo> I'm curious, though, when is a CCV rafsi ever unusable?
26 Jan 2010 14:02:43 <@xalbo> I'd forgotten {rotsu}, thanks.
26 Jan 2010 14:03:16 < treed> xalbo: I'm thinking tosmabru?
26 Jan 2010 14:03:25 < treed> although that's not really a problem with lujvo
26 Jan 2010 14:03:28 < treed> hm
26 Jan 2010 14:03:32 < treed> Unsure.
26 Jan 2010 14:04:20 < Melvar> When the previous rafsi ends in the letter it begins with.
26 Jan 2010 14:04:33 <@xalbo> Anyway, there are three forms of rafsi, CCV, CVV, and CVC.  All gismu have either zero or one of each.
26 Jan 2010 14:04:53 < treed> xalbo: three forms of *three-letter* rafsi
26 Jan 2010 14:04:59 <@xalbo> Point.
26 Jan 2010 14:04:59 < treed> Every gismu has at least two rafsi.
26 Jan 2010 14:05:21 < treed> It may additionally have 1-3 three-letter rafsi, of the froms he outlined above
26 Jan 2010 14:05:26 < treed> the others are -gism- and -gismu
26 Jan 2010 14:05:45 <@xalbo> All gismu have themselves as a five letter rafsi, and all but {broda}, {brode}, {brodi}, {brodo}, and {brodu} have a four letter rafsi formed by dropping the terminal vowel.
26 Jan 2010 14:06:04 < treed> Heh.
26 Jan 2010 14:06:05 < treed> Point.
26 Jan 2010 14:06:10 < treed> Forgot about brodV
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26 Jan 2010 14:07:35 < kribacr> (Side note: CV'V "takes up" the CVV slot)
26 Jan 2010 14:08:42 < lis_nunyn_> ki'e
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26 Jan 2010 14:10:22 < lis_nunyn_> Why don't the brod- family get a 4 letter rafsi?
26 Jan 2010 14:12:28 <@xalbo> The four letter rafsi are formed by dropping the terminal vowel, but that's all that distinguishes the brodV.
26 Jan 2010 14:12:44 <@xalbo> So they'd all collapse together.
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26 Jan 2010 14:13:35 < lis_nunyn_> right...
26 Jan 2010 14:14:51 < Melvar> I thought that CV'V takes up the CVV slot because the {'} doesn’t count for word length.
26 Jan 2010 14:15:00 <@xalbo> Exactly.
26 Jan 2010 14:15:21 < lis_nunyn_> is there an atitudinal for *embarassed-I-didn't-see-that-immediately*
26 Jan 2010 14:15:24 < lis_nunyn_> ?
26 Jan 2010 14:15:58 <@xalbo> li'a dai .oi ro'a
26 Jan 2010 14:16:05 <@xalbo> :)
26 Jan 2010 14:16:10 < lis_nunyn_> ki'e
26 Jan 2010 14:17:46 < lis_nunyn_> And some of the time the ' would be forced because otherwise you'd get an illegal vowel pair, right?
26 Jan 2010 14:19:06 < lis_nunyn_> Can there be rafsi that are only differentiated by an ' ?
26 Jan 2010 14:19:18 < treed> Probably.
26 Jan 2010 14:19:32 < treed> bloti vs loldi
26 Jan 2010 14:19:47 < lis_nunyn_> lo'i, loi?
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26 Jan 2010 14:20:40 < lis_nunyn_> I guess that's really not so bad. They don't sound anything alike.
26 Jan 2010 14:20:48 <@xalbo> Yes, -lo'i- and -loi- rafsi {bloti} and {loldi}, respectively.
26 Jan 2010 14:20:57 < sam_tceipn> xalbo: {dai.oiro'a} because when "I am embarrassed", I am empathizing someone else's social complaint (about me)?
26 Jan 2010 14:21:13 < sam_tceipn> *empathizing with
26 Jan 2010 14:21:29 <@xalbo> No, the {dai} was part of {li'a dai}, "It's obvious to *you*."
26 Jan 2010 14:22:40 < sam_tceipn> I see. Usually I only get embarrassed after it has become obvious to me as well - that would just be {li'a.oiro'a}?
26 Jan 2010 14:25:35 <@xalbo> Sure.
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26 Jan 2010 14:29:51 < lis_nunyn_> Is there a way to separate a string of attitudinals like that?
26 Jan 2010 14:30:43 < lis_nunyn_> So that my social-pain doesn't get all muddled up with it's cause?
26 Jan 2010 14:31:55 < lis_nunyn_> Would it be reasonable to use spacing for that? li'adai .oiro'a?
26 Jan 2010 14:34:17 < treed> spacing is non-semantic in Lojban
26 Jan 2010 14:35:08 < sam_tceipn> "That was obvious, *you* must be embarrassed (about me)" would be {li'a.oiro'adai}?
26 Jan 2010 14:35:45 < lis_nunyn_> Can't you not say anything about other people's feelings?
26 Jan 2010 14:35:56 < treed> Why would you? They don't express your attitude.
26 Jan 2010 14:36:12 < treed> I mean, you can talk about them with brivla.
26 Jan 2010 14:36:16 < sam_tceipn> (I don't know what Lojban's view of "embarassment", as per {.oiro'a}, is - Is it the same emotion whether it's your actions or someone else's that makes you feel embarrased?)
26 Jan 2010 14:36:17 < treed> But there aren't attitudinals for it.
26 Jan 2010 14:36:36 < lis_nunyn_> In reference to *you* must be embarrassed.
26 Jan 2010 14:38:20 < sam_tceipn> The closest you can get to "expressing" someone else's emotions is to express the idea that you are feeling an emotion in empathy with them {dai}, as I understand it?
26 Jan 2010 14:39:03 < sam_tceipn> I should have glossed my idea as "That was obvious, *you* must be embarrassed about me, as I am".
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26 Jan 2010 14:40:08 < Sonja> coi
26 Jan 2010 14:41:20 < sam_tceipn> coi Sonja
26 Jan 2010 14:42:50 < Sonja> xu mi se slabu do?
26 Jan 2010 14:48:02 < sam_tceipn> go'i .i mi du la .sam. poi cmima la .xaklab.
26 Jan 2010 14:48:46 < Sonja> la sam.tceipn cu nalzva?
26 Jan 2010 14:49:02 < Sonja> .ua
26 Jan 2010 14:49:12 < Sonja> xu la sam.tceipn cu nalzva?
26 Jan 2010 14:52:05 < Sonja> .i'i
26 Jan 2010 14:52:25 -!- Netsplit lindbohm.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: jeekl
26 Jan 2010 14:52:58 -!- Netsplit over, joins: jeekl
26 Jan 2010 14:58:55 < Sonja> xu do zvati la .xaxlab.? .i mi zvati le zdani mi
26 Jan 2010 14:59:04 < sam_tceipn> .ei mi na zvati le to'e bofsnipa reldei mu'i lenu mi bava zvati lo tersla
26 Jan 2010 15:00:24 < sam_tceipn> sa la to'e bofsnipa reldei
26 Jan 2010 15:00:40 < sam_tceipn> ju'ocu'i
26 Jan 2010 15:03:35 < Sonja> mi citka lo nimre
26 Jan 2010 15:04:26 < sam_tceipn> (I think you wanted {mi zvati le zdani be mi} or {mi zvati le mi zdani}.)
26 Jan 2010 15:05:26 < sam_tceipn> mi pinxe loi ckafi
26 Jan 2010 15:06:10 < Sonja> thanks, i need to learn be
26 Jan 2010 15:06:58 < Sonja> i have to use loi instead of lo for uncountable substances?
26 Jan 2010 15:07:18 < lis_nunyn_> yes
26 Jan 2010 15:07:34 < lis_nunyn_> Well, for masses.
26 Jan 2010 15:07:51 < Sonja> a coffee couldn't be considered a single unit, like a serving of coffee
26 Jan 2010 15:07:58 < Sonja> it has to be interpreted as a quantity of the liquid?
26 Jan 2010 15:08:19 < lis_nunyn_> I suspect that it could be.
26 Jan 2010 15:08:37 < lis_nunyn_> (Much like English)
26 Jan 2010 15:09:04 < sam_tceipn> ckafi: "x1 is made of/contains a quantity of coffee (from source x2)"
26 Jan 2010 15:09:07 < lis_nunyn_> But you also use loi/lei for things you might expect to be countable
26 Jan 2010 15:09:32 < sam_tceipn> So {lo ckafi}, "a quantity of coffee", is fine too.
26 Jan 2010 15:10:16 < sam_tceipn> As far as I can tell.
26 Jan 2010 15:10:49 < Sonja> did the inventor of loglan sue lojban people?
26 Jan 2010 15:10:53 -!- FireFly [n=firefly@unaffiliated/firefly] has quit ["Leaving"]
26 Jan 2010 15:11:00 < Sonja> where can i read the history ?
26 Jan 2010 15:11:45 -!- lindar [n=lindarth@rrcs-173-196-20-139.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 15:11:54 < sam_tceipn> All I know is what's on http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+timeline
26 Jan 2010 15:12:24 < sam_tceipn> It says that the Loglan people "threatened to sue" the Lojban people, and that the Lojban people then took action to have the Loglan trademark cancelled.
26 Jan 2010 15:12:41 < sam_tceipn> Which eventually succeeded, but by then the Lojban people had already done a relex and moved on with their lives.
26 Jan 2010 15:13:49 < sam_tceipn> Sonja: Were you asking about {be} because you don't know about it, or because you forgot this time?
26 Jan 2010 15:14:20 < lindar> >_>
26 Jan 2010 15:14:25 < sam_tceipn> coi lindar
26 Jan 2010 15:14:29 < lindar> Wow, I certainly walked in on something alright.
26 Jan 2010 15:14:53 < lindar> .i cooooooi .sonias.
26 Jan 2010 15:16:03 < Sonja> well my only background in lojban is the 2 hours of training that lindar gave me
26 Jan 2010 15:16:12 < Sonja> that's why our conversation was clumsy on my end
26 Jan 2010 15:16:12 < Tene> lo ckafi is fine too, eh?
26 Jan 2010 15:16:40 -!- Hussell [n=Jeremy_H@bas6-kitchener06-1177626048.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 15:17:03 < sam_tceipn> doi Tene mi na birti
26 Jan 2010 15:17:21 < Tene> mi stidi le nu do troci
26 Jan 2010 15:17:24 < komfn> Under xorlo, {lo ckafi} is fine.
26 Jan 2010 15:17:35 < sam_tceipn> But it wasn't before?
26 Jan 2010 15:18:02 < komfn> Not really sure. I don't have room in my head for thorough pre-xorlo understanding.
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26 Jan 2010 15:18:41 < Sonja> is xorlo a root word?
26 Jan 2010 15:18:45 < lindar> Yeah, it's best to forget pre-xorlo. Essentially {lo} was stupid.
26 Jan 2010 15:18:55 < lindar> ...and no, it's just a silly name for the grammar switch-over.
26 Jan 2010 15:19:13 < komfn> Sonja - it's a faux-gismu, built from {xorxes} and {lo}.
26 Jan 2010 15:19:21 < Sonja> what else ĉanged besides lo/le ?
26 Jan 2010 15:19:23 < lindar> It's a portmanteau and faux gismu-isation of xorxes + lo.
26 Jan 2010 15:19:33 < lis_nunyn_> Do I understand correctly, that you would say "lo prenu cusku sedu'u coi" to mean "people say hello" , and you would say "loi prenu cusku sedu'u coi" to mean "some people say hello in unison"?
26 Jan 2010 15:19:41 < lindar> le didn't change.
26 Jan 2010 15:19:58 < lindar> ...and no, that's wholly wrong.
26 Jan 2010 15:20:04 < lis_nunyn_> Ok. cool.
26 Jan 2010 15:20:08 < selckiku> it's the right idea
26 Jan 2010 15:20:14 < lindar> Very close indeed.
26 Jan 2010 15:20:23 < lindar> I didn't know there was a jbocre here or I'd shut up.
26 Jan 2010 15:20:28 < lindar> I need to eat breakfast and leave soon anyway.
26 Jan 2010 15:20:40 < selckiku> well i'm only sort of here
26 Jan 2010 15:20:49 < lis_nunyn_> Um.
26 Jan 2010 15:20:51 < selckiku> lo prenu cu cusku lu coi li'u
26 Jan 2010 15:20:56 < selckiku> one or more people each say "coi"
26 Jan 2010 15:20:58 < lis_nunyn_> Ah.
26 Jan 2010 15:21:02 < selckiku> loi prenu cu cusku lu coi li'u
26 Jan 2010 15:21:06 < Sonja> there is a verb for saying coi
26 Jan 2010 15:21:10 < selckiku> a mass of some number of people all say "coi" together
26 Jan 2010 15:21:17 < Sonja> rinsa
26 Jan 2010 15:21:22 < komfn> [Question, what's up with the deprecation of {zo}? No one uses it.]
26 Jan 2010 15:21:25 < lis_nunyn_> Right.
26 Jan 2010 15:21:33 < selckiku> i use zo all the time
26 Jan 2010 15:21:35 < selckiku> mi nelci zo zo
26 Jan 2010 15:21:44 < selckiku> co'o
26 Jan 2010 15:21:45 < lis_nunyn_> But the bit about how to use lo/loi is correct?
26 Jan 2010 15:21:54 < Melvar> .ie mi nelci zo zo
26 Jan 2010 15:21:55 < komfn> And yet you didn't for {zo coi}.
26 Jan 2010 15:22:18 < komfn> lis_nunyn_: I believe selckiku is correct, yes.
26 Jan 2010 15:22:43 < lis_nunyn_> But sedu'u coi is not?
26 Jan 2010 15:22:49 < komfn> Definitely not.
26 Jan 2010 15:22:53 < lis_nunyn_> Hum.
26 Jan 2010 15:23:12 < Hussell> sedu'u zo coi
26 Jan 2010 15:23:19 < Melvar> {sedu'u} is for indirect quotation.
26 Jan 2010 15:23:29 < komfn> You don't need the {se du'u} there. {zo coi} is fine.
26 Jan 2010 15:24:15 < lis_nunyn_> And I can't indirectly quote coi.
26 Jan 2010 15:24:40 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 15:25:50 < lis_nunyn_> Because it's a specific word, not a more general concept?
26 Jan 2010 15:25:54 < Melvar> {sedu'u} expresses approximately “the words that express the fact that”
26 Jan 2010 15:26:52 < lis_nunyn_> Alright then.
26 Jan 2010 15:26:56 < lindar> It's weird to say it. "x1 is a text expressing [bridi], which is x2". So you're saying, "People say something which expresses {coi}." which I don't think is correct because you actually need a bridi in there.
26 Jan 2010 15:26:58 < Melvar> You use it in the manner of “someone says *that* something is the case”
26 Jan 2010 15:27:30 < lindar> Either way, its weird, because they're not saying something that expresses that, they're actually saying it. =P
26 Jan 2010 15:27:47 < komfn> ei mi cliva i co'o
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26 Jan 2010 15:28:25 < lis_nunyn_> And unlike many other languages, lojban only has one way to say hello.
26 Jan 2010 15:28:43 < Melvar> Well, you can modify it with attitudinals.
26 Jan 2010 15:29:20 < lis_nunyn_> But not like: hey, hi, hello, salutations, greeting, hiya etc.
26 Jan 2010 15:29:46 < lis_nunyn_> Which I could imagine a bunch of people saying together.
26 Jan 2010 15:29:51 < Melvar> “hey” I think is more like “doi”.
26 Jan 2010 15:30:13 < lis_nunyn_> It is certainly used as hello.
26 Jan 2010 15:30:33 < lindar> Since when?
26 Jan 2010 15:30:34 < lis_nunyn_> I just did it.
26 Jan 2010 15:30:51 < lis_nunyn_> My roommate came home, I said "Hey Dylan."
26 Jan 2010 15:30:57 < lindar> Okay, but that's English.
26 Jan 2010 15:30:58 < lis_nunyn_> He said "Hey."
26 Jan 2010 15:31:19 < Melvar> In that case it’s probably just a variant of “hi”.
26 Jan 2010 15:31:42 < lindar> There's not really an equivalent English of "doi".
26 Jan 2010 15:31:50 < lindar> Anyway, I have to get ready for school.
26 Jan 2010 15:31:52 -!- lindar [n=lindarth@rrcs-173-196-20-139.west.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Hah, internet."]
26 Jan 2010 15:32:03 < lis_nunyn_> Hi, hello, hey... All just greetings in various degrees of formality, no?
26 Jan 2010 15:32:22 < lis_nunyn_> Well, hey is also used as doi is, I think.
26 Jan 2010 15:32:53 < Melvar> The only formality variance I’ve yet seen in Lojban is an attitudinal indicating relative rank of the listener to the speaker.
26 Jan 2010 15:33:36 < Melvar> However, I really need to get some sleep now, I’ve been up way too long.
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26 Jan 2010 15:33:50 < lis_nunyn_> Hum.
26 Jan 2010 15:33:57 < lis_nunyn_> Where are you?
26 Jan 2010 15:33:59 -!- muiro [n=muiro@unaffiliated/muiro] has quit ["leaving"]
26 Jan 2010 15:34:17 < Melvar> It’s 0:30, that tells you enough.
26 Jan 2010 15:34:18 < selckiku> yeah formality in lojban is marked with "ga'i"
26 Jan 2010 15:34:45 < lis_nunyn_> Well, good night.
26 Jan 2010 15:34:55 < Melvar> co'o
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26 Jan 2010 15:35:11 < selckiku> the only way i use it with other lojbanists mostly is saying "ga'i cu'i", we're of equal rank, since i think all lojbanists are equal
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26 Jan 2010 15:36:44 < selckiku> hmm there's also the casual/formal sort of axis, i don't know if we have anything like that yet
26 Jan 2010 15:36:51 < selckiku> that could be really useful actually
26 Jan 2010 15:37:07 < lis_nunyn_> If I were to write a language, I don't think I would include either of those functions.
26 Jan 2010 15:37:32 < selckiku> one thing that's sort of like that is "sa'e", which says that you're speaking precisely
26 Jan 2010 15:38:05 < lis_nunyn_> The one seems to be mainly an extension of the other.
26 Jan 2010 15:38:12 < lis_nunyn_> Hum.
26 Jan 2010 15:38:13 < selckiku> well i agree, i am inventing languages and i'm inventing entirely different things
26 Jan 2010 15:38:32 < selckiku> it's different what's appropriate in the context & history of lojban, it's its own quirky little world
26 Jan 2010 15:39:15 < lis_nunyn_> It's nice that ga'i can just be ignored though, it's not integral to anything.
26 Jan 2010 15:40:04 < lis_nunyn_> What languages are you inventing?
26 Jan 2010 15:40:04 < selckiku> yeah in lojban mostly everything is distinct, that's the ideal anyway
26 Jan 2010 15:40:35 < selckiku> well i have a personal artlang that i'm working on, ulmnqtu
26 Jan 2010 15:40:44 < Sonja> pavyseljirna ?
26 Jan 2010 15:40:58 < selckiku> and i've been thinking lately of getting together a loglang that's sort of lisp like
26 Jan 2010 15:41:03 < selckiku> unicorn
26 Jan 2010 15:41:10 < selckiku> right?
26 Jan 2010 15:41:13 < Sonja> yea
26 Jan 2010 15:41:29 < Hussell> What, not rhinoceros?
26 Jan 2010 15:41:31 < selckiku> pavyseljirna kalte
26 Jan 2010 15:41:50 < selckiku> hey, i wasn't the jvofi'i
26 Jan 2010 15:42:17 < selckiku> i would have put some {crida} in a lujvo for unicorn, pe'i
26 Jan 2010 15:42:49 < lis_nunyn_> pav = ?
26 Jan 2010 15:43:10 < selckiku> pa
26 Jan 2010 15:43:16 < selckiku> one
26 Jan 2010 15:43:26 < lis_nunyn_> a
26 Jan 2010 15:43:30 < lis_nunyn_> of course
26 Jan 2010 15:43:31 < Hussell> Huh. I thought unicorn would be "ramseljirnyxi'a" or something.
26 Jan 2010 15:44:24 < Hussell> I think "crida" is for mythical humanoids. "ranmi" is for non-humanoid mythical creatures. (E.g. "rambalrespa".)
26 Jan 2010 15:45:43 < lis_nunyn_> does the word need to be that precise? Are there any non-mythical jirnyxi'a?
26 Jan 2010 15:46:14 < lis_nunyn_> (Which is what I would expect a unicorn to be called)
26 Jan 2010 15:47:54 < Hussell> You're probably right. "jirnyxi'a" doesn't seem like it could be anything else.
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26 Jan 2010 15:49:14 < selckiku> mi nelci zo jirnyxi'a .io doi jvofi'i
26 Jan 2010 15:51:02 < Hussell> Is there any difference between "pavyseljirna" and "selpavjirna"?
26 Jan 2010 15:51:04 < lis_nunyn_> ki'e
26 Jan 2010 15:52:09 < lis_nunyn_> horsey-horn vs a horny-horse
26 Jan 2010 15:52:17 < lis_nunyn_> Um.
26 Jan 2010 15:52:26 < Hussell> It seems to me "pavyseljirna" would be a "one horned-thing", while "selpavjirna" would be a "one-horned thing".
26 Jan 2010 15:52:27 < lis_nunyn_> hornish-horse
26 Jan 2010 15:52:44 < lis_nunyn_> Sorry.
26 Jan 2010 15:52:58 < lis_nunyn_> I miss read you.<
26 Jan 2010 15:53:57 < lis_nunyn_> But, sel modifies what immediately follows it, I believe.
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26 Jan 2010 15:54:29 < lis_nunyn_> So selpav doesn't really mean anything.
26 Jan 2010 15:54:56 < lis_nunyn_> Since pa has no second place.
26 Jan 2010 15:55:15 < lis_nunyn_> Mind you, I am very green. So I wouldn't take my word for it.
26 Jan 2010 15:55:40 < selckiku> that's what i'd say as well
26 Jan 2010 15:55:41 < selckiku> .ie
26 Jan 2010 15:55:53 -!- acrid [n=mckay@204.126.146.202] has quit ["leaving"]
26 Jan 2010 15:56:28 < Hussell> "pav" doesn't have a first place either. I imagine it modifies the thing following it first, so that "selpav-" works like "selter-".
26 Jan 2010 15:58:38 < Hussell> ("selter-" first converts "x1 x2 x3" to "x3 x2 x1" then to "x2 x3 x1")
26 Jan 2010 15:58:41 < Sonja> my horsie is horny
26 Jan 2010 15:59:08 < Hussell> Or am I wrong about that?
26 Jan 2010 16:00:02 < lis_nunyn_> I'm not sure, this is a touch over my head.
26 Jan 2010 16:00:47 < lis_nunyn_> But I wouldn't assume that because you can stack sel-type modifiers you can stack them with other kinds of word-part.
26 Jan 2010 16:01:31 < Hussell> Well, "pavyseljirna" stacks "pa" and "se".
26 Jan 2010 16:01:51 < lis_nunyn_> Um, maybe stack wasn't the word I wanted.
26 Jan 2010 16:03:49 < lis_nunyn_> Sel- changes the nature/place-structure of the word it is attached to, but pa just adds to it.
26 Jan 2010 16:04:37 < lis_nunyn_> Sel-, ter- etc can be combined to modify the same gismu
26 Jan 2010 16:04:53 < selckiku> i would expand it to the tanru:
26 Jan 2010 16:04:58 < selckiku> me li pa se jirna
26 Jan 2010 16:05:14 < selckiku> but i think there's various ways you could look at it
26 Jan 2010 16:06:01 < Hussell> I'm not sure what you mean by "me li pa se jirna" (parse failure on my end).
26 Jan 2010 16:06:16 < selckiku> tertau: "je jirna", seltau: "me li pa", a referrent of "li pa", the number one
26 Jan 2010 16:06:17 < lis_nunyn_> le maybe?
26 Jan 2010 16:07:00 < lis_nunyn_> ah.
26 Jan 2010 16:07:09 < lis_nunyn_> Wasn't  familiar with me.
26 Jan 2010 16:07:19 < selckiku> sorry i mean tertau: "SE jirna" of ocurse
26 Jan 2010 16:07:20 < Hussell> Ah, "me li pa me'u se jirna".
26 Jan 2010 16:07:26 < selckiku> i typo solpyy
26 Jan 2010 16:07:40 < selckiku> oh does it need a me'u?
26 Jan 2010 16:07:45 < selckiku> .ua nai ro'e
26 Jan 2010 16:08:46 < sam_tceipn> Question: Is a sumti by itself a valid sentence-utterance, i.e. is {.i do .i} a grammatical observative-type utterance? Or should it technically be {.i me do .i}?
26 Jan 2010 16:09:24 < Hussell> I think "se" can be used on mekso operators, so the grammar was expecting an operator instead of "jirna".
26 Jan 2010 16:10:30 < Hussell> Now, when you said "I would expand it to the tanru", what was the "it" pointing to, selckiku?
26 Jan 2010 16:11:07 < selckiku> sam_tceipn: sumti without selbri makes a valid utterance, yes.  they're most often used in answering questions!
26 Jan 2010 16:11:45 < Hussell> "pavyseljirna" or "selpavjirna"?
26 Jan 2010 16:13:03 < selckiku> pavyseljirna
26 Jan 2010 16:13:34 < selckiku> selpavjirna feels like nonsense to me, it sort of expands in my mind to "se pa jirna" which doesn't make sense
26 Jan 2010 16:14:12 < Hussell> Shouldn't it expand to "se ke me li pa me'u jirna"?
26 Jan 2010 16:14:13 < lis_nunyn_> I agree, although I can see why you would want to say that.
26 Jan 2010 16:14:33 < lis_nunyn_> (Agree with selckicy)
26 Jan 2010 16:15:37 < lis_nunyn_> Does that work?
26 Jan 2010 16:15:47 < lis_nunyn_> se (li pa) jirna
26 Jan 2010 16:16:39 < Hussell> Hmm. "me'u" isn't needed this time. "se ke me li pa jirna"
26 Jan 2010 16:16:50 < selckiku> i mean it could make sense, it's possible, but the way i'm used to people using sel ter vel xel is before a gismu rafsi
26 Jan 2010 16:19:15 < Hussell> Yeah, I know. I just assumed that the rule about multiple SE before a gismu rafsi being evaluated left-to-right generalized to cover all cmavo without place-structures.
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26 Jan 2010 16:21:37 < lis_nunyn_> pavyjirna: x1 is exactly one horn on x2 ?
26 Jan 2010 16:22:08 < lis_nunyn_> Or, x1 is the only horn of x2?
26 Jan 2010 16:22:58 < Hussell> Are those different?
26 Jan 2010 16:23:14 < lis_nunyn_> yes
26 Jan 2010 16:23:25 < lis_nunyn_> I think.
26 Jan 2010 16:23:43 < Hussell> Ah, I see, the first allows the possiblity of other horns on x2?
26 Jan 2010 16:25:05 < lis_nunyn_> I would expect so.
26 Jan 2010 16:25:05 < Hussell> I think the 2nd, then.
26 Jan 2010 16:25:26 < lis_nunyn_> That is the definition that is most useful, I would say, but is it the one that follows logically from pa and jirna?
26 Jan 2010 16:25:33 < lis_nunyn_> (And does that matter?)
26 Jan 2010 16:25:53 < selckiku> lol ok i get it, sel- pavyjirna, yeah that makes (weird) sense
26 Jan 2010 16:26:08 < Hussell> I think so. Numbers in lojban are exact, so if you say something has "pa" horns, you mean no more, no less.
26 Jan 2010 16:26:13 < selckiku> the definition that's most useful, is the biggest factor
26 Jan 2010 16:26:21 < lis_nunyn_> Ok.
26 Jan 2010 16:27:06 < selckiku> being more like the usual gismu meanings is often more useful, because it's more recognizable
26 Jan 2010 16:28:23 < lis_nunyn_> Hussell: but since the word is "is a horn" not "has a horn" we get "is one horn" not "has one horn", no?
26 Jan 2010 16:28:36 < Hussell> Agreed. But my first reaction to "pavyseljirna" was "What? A solitary horned-animal?"
26 Jan 2010 16:28:43 < lis_nunyn_> yes.
26 Jan 2010 16:28:55 < selckiku> it's a strange lujvo
26 Jan 2010 16:28:59 < lis_nunyn_> pavseljirna is weird too.
26 Jan 2010 16:29:01 < selckiku> most lujvo are strange though
26 Jan 2010 16:29:38 < Hussell> I guess I'm in the jvajvo camp, then.
26 Jan 2010 16:29:39 < selckiku> i like "lobykai" and "lobypli"
26 Jan 2010 16:30:17 < selckiku> it's strange that we use "lob" only in those words
26 Jan 2010 16:30:19 < Hussell> Meh. I prefer "jbokai" and "jbopli" :)
26 Jan 2010 16:30:46 < selckiku> don't yr lips get tired, tho, saying "jb" all day? :P
26 Jan 2010 16:31:05 < lis_nunyn_> It (pavyseljirna) seems like a misguided attempt to translate literally a word that didn't make much sense in English.
26 Jan 2010 16:31:05 < Hussell> They probably come from before the great rafsi allocation. Before then, "lojbo" might not have had "jbo" as a rafsi.
26 Jan 2010 16:31:06 < selckiku> lobypli, it's a vacation for the tongue, lobypli
26 Jan 2010 16:33:32 < selckiku> in my loglisp i'm working on the compounding system i thought of is way simpler
26 Jan 2010 16:34:31 < selckiku> roots are CVC where C can be a consonant or a cluster, and compound words are just like CVCyCVC + maybye another vowel
26 Jan 2010 16:34:41 < Hussell> I recently had to translate "manticore". The lujvo I came up with was so long, I was forced to discard it in favor of "ramrmantikore".
26 Jan 2010 16:36:28 < selckiku> well i like ramrmantikore, it's recognizable
26 Jan 2010 16:36:44 < lis_nunyn_> If you're an anglophone.
26 Jan 2010 16:37:18 < Hussell> Well, according to wikipedia the word is imported as-is into most other languages.
26 Jan 2010 16:37:40 < selckiku> yeah what other word is there for "manticore"?
26 Jan 2010 16:37:58 < selckiku> seems like a fu'ivla candidate if ever there was one
26 Jan 2010 16:38:13 < lis_nunyn_> Well, I'm sure it's only mostly approximated in other languages.
26 Jan 2010 16:39:15 < Hussell> "mantikora" or variations thereof looks like the most common. They all got the word from ancient greek.
26 Jan 2010 16:40:10 < lis_nunyn_> I'm don't actually disagree, it seems likely that that is a perfectly apt translation.
26 Jan 2010 16:41:05 < lis_nunyn_> Although, ramrmantikora might be a slight improvement
26 Jan 2010 16:42:09 < selckiku> .ie
26 Jan 2010 16:42:19 < Hussell> Fair enough.
26 Jan 2010 16:42:58 < Sonja> so the diphthong {ou} doesn't exist in lojban?
26 Jan 2010 16:43:04 < lis_nunyn_> Ha.
26 Jan 2010 16:43:09 < selckiku> no it doesn't
26 Jan 2010 16:43:09 < lis_nunyn_> Sorry.
26 Jan 2010 16:43:21 < selckiku> except in the sloppy speech of anglophones such as myself :)
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26 Jan 2010 16:43:48 < selckiku> i try my best, but my vowelling is just sloppy by nature
26 Jan 2010 16:47:31 < sam_tceipn> selckiku: I am interested in your Lispy conlang, do you have notes you could send me?
26 Jan 2010 16:48:04 < selckiku> sam_tceipn: i haven't done much yet
26 Jan 2010 16:48:45 < sam_tceipn> I'm very interested in the idea of something that is a reasonable spoken language as well as a good programming language (at least syntactically), although I'm not sure it can really exist.
26 Jan 2010 16:48:50 < sam_tceipn> The two problems being so different.
26 Jan 2010 16:48:52 < selckiku> i was just thinking maybe the authority for the meaning of words in the language could be what it says on a public wiki... then you could change the meanings of words to something funny and then trick people into saying them
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26 Jan 2010 16:49:37 < sam_tceipn> And I'm interested in the idea of something that does what Lojban does in a simpler way, although I suspect there are good reasons for most of Lojban's complexity.
26 Jan 2010 16:50:12 < selckiku> well no one really knows whether lojban's shit is worth it
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26 Jan 2010 16:50:26 < selckiku> for instance there's allll this stuff about elidable terminators
26 Jan 2010 16:50:43 < selckiku> and the alternative, obviously, is to say terminators alllll the damn time
26 Jan 2010 16:51:10 < selckiku> so is that more difficult?  or is it easier because it's simpler?
26 Jan 2010 16:51:47 < selckiku> the way that makes sense to me to really find out is to really try it, to make a fully terminated language and try speaking it and see if our fingers bleed
26 Jan 2010 16:52:13 < selckiku> in my version i'm working on, things terminate themselves, like "hu" would be the terminator for "hu", it's like hu something ha something ha hu
26 Jan 2010 16:52:42 < Hussell> Ugh. I've already tried programming languages like that, and they're a pain to type and read.
26 Jan 2010 16:53:14 < Hussell> The main advantage seems to be that having all the terminators there makes writing a parser really easy.
26 Jan 2010 16:53:36 < selckiku> yeah it'd actually have a simple grammar, unlike lojban's which is some weird chimera
26 Jan 2010 16:54:01 < Hussell> Why not make an entirely head-first or head-final language, so that terminators aren't needed at all?
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26 Jan 2010 16:54:52 < sam_tceipn> I don't see how that would eliminate the need for terminators...
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26 Jan 2010 16:55:46 < Hussell> Oh, yeah, one other requirement: every construct has a fixed number of arguments. Sort of like RPN on some old calculators.
26 Jan 2010 16:56:48 < selckiku> forth
26 Jan 2010 16:56:52 < lis_nunyn_> ramdalxre (if md / lx are leagal)
26 Jan 2010 16:56:53 < sam_tceipn> Hussell: I like stack-based languages, partly because you can do away with the whole concept of nested expressions. I've wondered if you could do that with a spoken language.
26 Jan 2010 16:57:46 < selckiku> i'd love to see someone do a spoken stack language
26 Jan 2010 16:58:07 < lis_nunyn_> Maybe you should, Sam.
26 Jan 2010 16:58:16 < selckiku> just putting terminators everywhere is the simplest, though, so i think we ought to at least try the simplest thing
26 Jan 2010 16:58:16 < sam_tceipn> I have ideas about these things, but I'd been planning to get more familiar with Lojban before trying to outdo it.
26 Jan 2010 16:58:22 < sam_tceipn> A lot of engineering has gone into it.
26 Jan 2010 16:58:41 < Hussell> Hmm. I think there was one... Aha! http://www.langmaker.com/fith.htm
26 Jan 2010 16:59:09 < selckiku> there's a lot to learn from lojban, it's the only language in this general area
26 Jan 2010 17:00:51 < sam_tceipn> Lojban's phonology and morphology seemed to have been developed, with a lot of rigour, by people who know a lot more about linguistics than I do.
26 Jan 2010 17:00:53 < Hussell> "ramdalxre" could be a lot of things. Manticore, sphinx, griffon, hippogriff, pegasus. There are an aweful lot of mythical-animal mixtures. (Should be "ramxreda'u", I think.)
26 Jan 2010 17:01:00 < lis_nunyn_> Chimera
26 Jan 2010 17:01:06 < lis_nunyn_> (I was thiking)
26 Jan 2010 17:01:12 < lis_nunyn_> Well, no
26 Jan 2010 17:01:23 < sam_tceipn> I think if I were going to try and invent a loglang I would start by stealing those bits from Lojban.
26 Jan 2010 17:02:03 < lis_nunyn_> I was thinking it could be the whole class of all those things.
26 Jan 2010 17:02:05 < lis_nunyn_> Ma
26 Jan 2010 17:02:42 < lis_nunyn_> Many, if not all, mythologies have them
26 Jan 2010 17:03:07 < Hussell> A word meaning "mythical mix-and-match animal"? That's a cool idea.
26 Jan 2010 17:04:29 < lis_nunyn_> dalxre pretty much works for chimera, too
26 Jan 2010 17:04:33 < lis_nunyn_> I think
26 Jan 2010 17:05:48 < Hussell> Well, again, there are so many mixture animals, I didn't even think of Chimera. Maybe that's another good candidate for a fu'ivla.
26 Jan 2010 17:06:14 < lis_nunyn_> I meant the real thing chimera
26 Jan 2010 17:07:02 < lis_nunyn_> but yeah.
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26 Jan 2010 17:07:54 < lis_nunyn_> Thinkin about it, it seems silly to do anything other than use fu'ivla to describe the products of a specific culture
26 Jan 2010 17:09:01 < lis_nunyn_> I mean, something like ramdalxre can describe a class of cross-cultural creatures
26 Jan 2010 17:09:13 < Hussell> "jorne" might be better than "mixre". I think "mixre" refers to blends or co-minglings, where the mythical animals are usually different parts joined together.
26 Jan 2010 17:09:16 < lis_nunyn_> Or rather a cross-cultural class of creatures
26 Jan 2010 17:09:32 < lis_nunyn_> I thought about that...
26 Jan 2010 17:09:56 < lis_nunyn_> Does it not imply multiple animals joined to you, though?
26 Jan 2010 17:10:15 < lis_nunyn_> As opposed to bits from different types of animal?
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26 Jan 2010 17:10:42 < lis_nunyn_> It could be a couple cats tied together.
26 Jan 2010 17:11:15 < Hussell> Plus, "danlu" should be the tertau, since you want the lujvo's place structure to resemble "danlu"'s places more than "jorne"'s places.
26 Jan 2010 17:11:43 < Hussell> Well, "jorne pagbu danlu" then?
26 Jan 2010 17:11:51 < lis_nunyn_> I considered trying to specify a heterogeneous mixture.
26 Jan 2010 17:12:54 < Hussell> No, wait, two cats tied together would be a "relmlatybakfu".
26 Jan 2010 17:13:37 < Hussell> "jonda'u" seems alright.
26 Jan 2010 17:14:01 < Hussell> "joined [type-of] animal"
26 Jan 2010 17:14:21 < lis_nunyn_> But can relmlatybakfu not be a member of jonda'u
26 Jan 2010 17:14:24 < lis_nunyn_> ?
26 Jan 2010 17:15:25 < Hussell> Well, at heart it's a bundle or package containing multiple animals, not an animal itself. The tertau is the most important part of the lujvo; its basic nature.
26 Jan 2010 17:15:39 < Sonja> can you think of a common lojban word with two vowels side by side that don't form a diphthong?
26 Jan 2010 17:15:43 < Sonja> without being separated by an '
26 Jan 2010 17:16:10 < lis_nunyn_> I don't think that's allwed
26 Jan 2010 17:16:13 < sam_tceipn> Sonja: That doesn't happen.
26 Jan 2010 17:16:45 < Hussell> The cmene "djouan"
26 Jan 2010 17:17:04 < lis_nunyn_> actually the places of mixure work fairly well.
26 Jan 2010 17:17:29 < sam_tceipn> Hussell: Pronounced djo,uan?
26 Jan 2010 17:17:48 < Hussell> Yes.
26 Jan 2010 17:18:05 < sam_tceipn> Sonja: To be precise, if two vowels that can form a diphthong are adjacent, they do.
26 Jan 2010 17:18:13 < sam_tceipn> ('o' and 'u' can't.)
26 Jan 2010 17:18:39 < lis_nunyn_> x1 is a (mythical-animal-mixture) comprised of parts x2
26 Jan 2010 17:19:21 < sam_tceipn> In names you can separate them with ',' to indicate that you don't want them to diphthong-ize, but native Lojban words don't use that.
26 Jan 2010 17:19:21 < Hussell> ... of type/species x3
26 Jan 2010 17:19:38 < Hussell> More useful to have the type come first, and the parts last.
26 Jan 2010 17:20:33 < lis_nunyn_> A chimera (is a mythical-animal-mixture comprised of) lions, snakes, goats
26 Jan 2010 17:20:35 < lis_nunyn_> No?
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26 Jan 2010 17:21:31 < Hussell> In most of the stories, yes.
26 Jan 2010 17:21:36 < Sonja> i thought uo was a valid diphthong
26 Jan 2010 17:21:46 < lis_nunyn_> maybe not... lojban doesn't like working that way and I'm not quite used to is yet.
26 Jan 2010 17:21:46 < Hussell> It is.
26 Jan 2010 17:22:29 < Hussell> It's a valid word too.
26 Jan 2010 17:23:02 < Hussell> But "ou" isn't.
26 Jan 2010 17:23:02 < sam_tceipn> Yes, sorry, I meant 'o' followed by 'u'. 'u' followed by 'o' is a diphthong.
26 Jan 2010 17:23:55 < lis_nunyn_> It seems to me that you would want to say that more often than you would want to say "ti ramdalxre la ramkaimera"
26 Jan 2010 17:24:27 < lis_nunyn_> but I guess you still want to say that sometimes, so there may as well be room for it.
26 Jan 2010 17:24:43 < lis_nunyn_> le ramkaimera
26 Jan 2010 17:24:45 < lis_nunyn_> ?
26 Jan 2010 17:24:51 < lis_nunyn_> ouf.
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26 Jan 2010 17:25:44 < Hussell> lo ramrkaimera
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26 Jan 2010 17:25:54 < lis_nunyn_> So a mythical-mixturish-animal
26 Jan 2010 17:26:23 < lis_nunyn_> or a mythical-joinedish-animal
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26 Jan 2010 17:27:26 < lis_nunyn_> it's silly, but what I want this to mean is a mythical-animal-mixture-animal
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26 Jan 2010 17:28:02 < Hussell> mythical (animal-mixture) animal, even
26 Jan 2010 17:28:14 < lis_nunyn_> yeah
26 Jan 2010 17:28:49 < Hussell> mythical ((animal mixture) animal), or (mythical (animal mixture)) animal?
26 Jan 2010 17:28:57 < lis_nunyn_> ha
26 Jan 2010 17:29:27 < lis_nunyn_> mythical (mythical-animal mixture) animal
26 Jan 2010 17:30:07 < lis_nunyn_> no, I'm just being even sillier.
26 Jan 2010 17:30:33 < lis_nunyn_> mythical ((animal mixture) animal)
26 Jan 2010 17:31:13 < Hussell> ramkemdalxreda'u
26 Jan 2010 17:32:24 < lis_nunyn_> I feel like that's unnecessary, though.
26 Jan 2010 17:33:07 < lis_nunyn_> kem?
26 Jan 2010 17:33:34 < Hussell> Yes, things like this are why lujvo are allowed to leave things out. Otherwise "lange'u" would have to be "terlantroge'u".
26 Jan 2010 17:33:52 < lis_nunyn_> yeah
26 Jan 2010 17:34:25 < lis_nunyn_> ok so sticking to a three part word
26 Jan 2010 17:34:43 < Hussell> "kem" for the cmavo "ke", open bracket. Basically, it means "ram" modifies "dalxreda'u" instead of just "dal".
26 Jan 2010 17:35:10 < lis_nunyn_> yeah...
26 Jan 2010 17:35:26 < lis_nunyn_> do we need to have it anyways?
26 Jan 2010 17:35:39 < lis_nunyn_> ramkedalxre
26 Jan 2010 17:35:41 < Hussell> ta'u ranmi ke danlu mixre danlu
26 Jan 2010 17:35:57 < lis_nunyn_> or ramkemxreda'u
26 Jan 2010 17:36:20 < lis_nunyn_> nah.
26 Jan 2010 17:36:23 < Hussell> Well, for the 2nd you could argue that the mixture is mythical.
26 Jan 2010 17:36:30 < lis_nunyn_> Exactly
26 Jan 2010 17:36:45 < Hussell> "kem" is probably the most-dropped rafsi there in lujvo.
26 Jan 2010 17:36:57 < lis_nunyn_> I can imagine.
26 Jan 2010 17:37:24 < lis_nunyn_> As to mixture vs. joined
26 Jan 2010 17:37:44 < lis_nunyn_> joined fails to imply a variety of elements, to me
26 Jan 2010 17:38:13 < lis_nunyn_> It makes me think of a pushmepullyou
26 Jan 2010 17:38:19 < Hussell> Point.
26 Jan 2010 17:38:58 < lis_nunyn_> There's nothing saying a mixture has to be homogeneous
26 Jan 2010 17:39:32 < Hussell> "gunma"?
26 Jan 2010 17:39:47 < lis_nunyn_> Although to specify that it isn't would make the word pretty cluky.
26 Jan 2010 17:40:22 < lis_nunyn_> hum
26 Jan 2010 17:40:24 < lis_nunyn_> maybe
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26 Jan 2010 17:40:52 < lis_nunyn_> *clunky
26 Jan 2010 17:41:25 < lis_nunyn_> Anyways, I have to go bake some cookies now.
26 Jan 2010 17:41:34 < lis_nunyn_> ramxreda'u
26 Jan 2010 17:41:34 < Hussell> No, just that the things are mixed/blended/mingled together. Doesn't have to be homogeneous (there can be chunks), but I don't see parts attached to each other as being "mingled" or "blended".
26 Jan 2010 17:41:54 < Hussell> ramgumda'u
26 Jan 2010 17:42:01 < lis_nunyn_> maybe.
26 Jan 2010 17:42:15 < lis_nunyn_> I'm still getting mental images of cats tied together
26 Jan 2010 17:43:06 < lis_nunyn_> nothing to say it's an aggregation of different kind of things
26 Jan 2010 17:43:56 < lis_nunyn_> And worse, a strong implication of being a set of individuals
26 Jan 2010 17:44:02 < Hussell> Like Cerberus?
26 Jan 2010 17:44:11 < lis_nunyn_> yeah
26 Jan 2010 17:44:27 < lis_nunyn_> Anyways
26 Jan 2010 17:44:29 < Hussell> Or Hydra?
26 Jan 2010 17:45:01 < lis_nunyn_> cookies before my roomates eat me instead.
26 Jan 2010 17:45:32 < lis_nunyn_> It's been swell.
26 Jan 2010 17:45:42 < lis_nunyn_> co'o
26 Jan 2010 17:47:16 < Sonja> http://esperanto.kisa.ca/lerni-lojhbanon-1 if you see any errors in this article, let me know
26 Jan 2010 17:49:42 < Sonja> i'm trying to teach lojban to esperantonians
26 Jan 2010 17:52:25 < lis_nunyn_> Zaphod Beeblebrox (I couldn't resist)
26 Jan 2010 17:55:10 < Hussell> jonpauda'u
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26 Jan 2010 17:57:14 < lis_nunyn_> Hum.
26 Jan 2010 17:57:40 < lis_nunyn_> I'm going to bring my computer to the kitchen before I get eaten.
26 Jan 2010 17:58:24 -!- Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-165-131-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit []
26 Jan 2010 17:59:21 < lis_nunyn_> Are you proposing losing the ram?
26 Jan 2010 18:00:40 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit ["Leaving."]
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26 Jan 2010 18:02:52 < lis_nunyn_> because I think ramjonpauda'u is longer than it needs to be.
26 Jan 2010 18:04:13 -!- Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-165-131-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 18:04:17 < Sonja> did i miss anything?
26 Jan 2010 18:06:48 < lis_nunyn_> lots of talk on what to call mythological mix-and-match animals
26 Jan 2010 18:07:02 < lis_nunyn_> so, no
26 Jan 2010 18:07:09 < Hussell> Can you think of any non-mythical animals that are made of joined parts?
26 Jan 2010 18:07:40 < lis_nunyn_> not offhand...
26 Jan 2010 18:07:45 < Sonja> i just published an article about Lojban in my Esperanto blog
26 Jan 2010 18:07:55 < lis_nunyn_> you could join the parts of animals
26 Jan 2010 18:07:59 < donri> Sonja, in tok pisin?
26 Jan 2010 18:08:00 < lis_nunyn_> they would die
26 Jan 2010 18:08:05 < Sonja> no, in Esperanto
26 Jan 2010 18:08:10 < donri> aww!
26 Jan 2010 18:08:13 < lis_nunyn_> sonja: that's cool
26 Jan 2010 18:08:24 < lis_nunyn_> I would go read it if I could.
26 Jan 2010 18:08:42 < Hussell> It's like "jirnyxi'a" then. You can always say "ranmi jonpauda'u" first, then just continue talking about "jonpauda'u".
26 Jan 2010 18:08:46 < donri> Sonja, i like your front page
26 Jan 2010 18:08:59 < lis_nunyn_> they might not die if you were good at it
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26 Jan 2010 18:09:11 < Sonja> donri which one... on my blog or my main site kisa.ca ?
26 Jan 2010 18:09:14 < donri> main
26 Jan 2010 18:09:14 < lis_nunyn_> I might have a pig's heart
26 Jan 2010 18:09:24 < donri> i like that on jbotcan too
26 Jan 2010 18:09:52 < iyunkateus> Is 'rapzbaskina' an invalid lujvo? And if so, what rule is it breaking?
26 Jan 2010 18:10:29 < donri> pz invalid cluster?
26 Jan 2010 18:10:33 < donri> rapyzbaskina
26 Jan 2010 18:11:02 < iyunkateus> oh thanks
26 Jan 2010 18:11:13 < donri> http://esperanto.kisa.ca/lerni-lojhbanon-1 <- Sonja's post, as she is too humble to link herself.
26 Jan 2010 18:12:07 < donri> esperanto is kinda cute
26 Jan 2010 18:12:29 < lis_nunyn_> Sonja; This is probably the wrong forum for this but what are your feelings on Edo
26 Jan 2010 18:12:34 < lis_nunyn_> ?<
26 Jan 2010 18:12:34 < Sonja> hehe which qualities?
26 Jan 2010 18:12:36 < Sonja> what is Edo?
26 Jan 2010 18:12:43 < Sonja> the Japanese historical period?
26 Jan 2010 18:12:53 < lis_nunyn_> Is that not the name I want?
26 Jan 2010 18:13:00 < Sonja> oh maybe Ido?
26 Jan 2010 18:13:02 < lis_nunyn_> Esoeranto variant
26 Jan 2010 18:13:04 < lis_nunyn_> ah<
26 Jan 2010 18:13:08 < lis_nunyn_> right
26 Jan 2010 18:13:13 < Sonja> well we sort of laugh at Ido in Esperantoland
26 Jan 2010 18:13:19 < Sonja> because it never really went on to become anything
26 Jan 2010 18:13:21 < lis_nunyn_> why?
26 Jan 2010 18:13:24 < lis_nunyn_> ah
26 Jan 2010 18:13:35 < lis_nunyn_> Should it have?
26 Jan 2010 18:13:35 < Sonja> contrary to Loglan/Lojban where Lojban seems to be more active nowadays
26 Jan 2010 18:14:06 < Sonja> i liked some features in Ido, like pronouns that are less easily confused. They used 'me' instead of mi, etc.
26 Jan 2010 18:14:24 < Sonja> Ido also did some minor phonetic simplifications I liked.
26 Jan 2010 18:14:43 < Hussell> Dang. I was thinking "Edo", the obscure Nigerian language with the colorful script. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_language
26 Jan 2010 18:14:44 < Sonja> But Ido also tried to remove all the un-Romance-like aspects of Esperanto and make them more Romance-like. I don't like that part at all.
26 Jan 2010 18:14:55 < donri> Ido seems like a "less broken Esperanto", which ends up not so useful in the end because the basic design is still not so interesting. Esperanto wins by having a large community.
26 Jan 2010 18:15:04 < donri> in theory, i find interlingua more interesting technically
26 Jan 2010 18:15:13 < Sonja> Esperanto has its own distinctive flavour. There's no need to try to make it another Romance language.
26 Jan 2010 18:15:28 < lis_nunyn_> It's got an awful name though...
26 Jan 2010 18:15:34 < Sonja> what aspects do you find cute, donri?
26 Jan 2010 18:15:40 < lis_nunyn_> (Interlingua)
26 Jan 2010 18:16:21 < Sonja> I never really looked at Interlingua. I always confuse it with Interligue and don't remember which is which.
26 Jan 2010 18:16:21 < donri> Sonja, of esperanto? oh, no idea. just a spontaneous feeling.
26 Jan 2010 18:17:05 < donri> interlingua is supposedly more mechanically constructed while, by only building on natural constructs and words, ends up less mechanical. :P
26 Jan 2010 18:17:46 < Sonja> i like europanto :)
26 Jan 2010 18:17:46 < donri> lojban takes artificiality to extremes, which is interesting. interlingua is extremely natural while still constructed.
26 Jan 2010 18:17:52 < Sonja> cool
26 Jan 2010 18:17:53 < donri> i like extremes, either way.
26 Jan 2010 18:18:51 < donri> like how we discussed toki pona takes generalisations to extremes. that is interesting.
26 Jan 2010 18:19:00 < donri> i'm more about what lets me explore my mind than what is practically useful.
26 Jan 2010 18:19:25 < Sonja> yes, conlanging tends to be about mental exploration
26 Jan 2010 18:19:32 < donri> i don't think conlangs will ever be a hit enough to be practically useful.
26 Jan 2010 18:19:42 < Sonja> well esperanto is practically useful
26 Jan 2010 18:19:45 < Sonja> especially for travel
26 Jan 2010 18:19:58 < Sonja> but it's more of a diaspora culture than anything
26 Jan 2010 18:20:00 < donri> like, by 2050 we'll be communicating by a binary digital protocol anyway eh
26 Jan 2010 18:20:07  * donri nutcase singularitarian
26 Jan 2010 18:20:21 < Hussell> Technically, we're doing that right this instant.
26 Jan 2010 18:20:34 < donri> Hussell, very inefficiently, though
26 Jan 2010 18:20:53 < Sonja> yi jing is binary shamanism
26 Jan 2010 18:21:54 < donri> Sonja, also, yes, lojban's cultural gismu are very biased. sadly.
26 Jan 2010 18:22:17 < donri> some try and replace them with fu'ivla, some just accept it (and extend with fu'ivla) and some try to invent new cultural gismu.
26 Jan 2010 18:22:30 < Sonja> there's nothing wrong with that. but i think lojban's brochure shouldn't try to claim that lojban is culturally neutral. that's the point i was trying to make.
26 Jan 2010 18:22:39 < donri> (that's why sweden is both sfe'ero and zvero)
26 Jan 2010 18:23:15 < donri> i think the point is mostly regarding the design as a whole, rather than culture-related words per-se
26 Jan 2010 18:23:50 < donri> and complete neutrality is probably impossible/very difficult to achieve, but it's a design goal, and we succeed okayishly
26 Jan 2010 18:24:10 < Sonja> in most areas lojban has done well
26 Jan 2010 18:24:17 < Sonja> it's covered its pases for all major crops
26 Jan 2010 18:24:24 < Sonja> millet, oats, wheat, rice, etc.
26 Jan 2010 18:24:46 < donri> how does lojban do WRT colors?
26 Jan 2010 18:25:04 < Sonja> what is wrt?
26 Jan 2010 18:25:07 < donri> as cultures seem to differ in what colores they see as basic
26 Jan 2010 18:25:10 < donri> "with regards to"
26 Jan 2010 18:25:17 < Sonja> lojban does colours quite well, i find
26 Jan 2010 18:25:27 < Sonja> it runs thru the spectrum quite nicely
26 Jan 2010 18:25:42 < Sonja> red magenta violet blue blue-green green yellow orange
26 Jan 2010 18:26:27 < donri> lojban sometimes takes neutrality to extremes, incorporating the possibility of multiple heads into the word for head. as an example. :P
26 Jan 2010 18:27:35 < Hussell> I thought that just meant you could use "lo stedu" to mean "a head", without specifically saying whose.
26 Jan 2010 18:27:53 < donri> or crazy scifi influences: terdi is Earth *or* the "home planet of species..."
26 Jan 2010 18:28:11 < Sonja> hehe
26 Jan 2010 18:28:24 < Sonja> it amuses me that the word for to think is 'pensi', same as esperanto
26 Jan 2010 18:28:29 < donri> Hussell, {le stedu} is still "some of the heads of.."
26 Jan 2010 18:28:43 < donri> (which might be the one of the one heads, but can be three of the five.)
26 Jan 2010 18:29:37 < donri> Sonja, i think maybe because "to be pensive" is the closest least ambiguous counterpart in english? although gismu are weighted to six languages ...
26 Jan 2010 18:29:55 < Sonja> yeah
26 Jan 2010 18:29:56 < Hussell> The lack of number there isn't built into "stedu"; it's built into the whole language.
26 Jan 2010 18:30:16 < donri> english "think" can be pensi, jinvi, sanji...
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26 Jan 2010 18:31:04 < donri> Hussell, yea, well, but the stedu definition specifically says "a/the". although IMO it shouldn't need to.
26 Jan 2010 18:31:35 < donri> Sonja, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pensi#Lojban
26 Jan 2010 18:32:05 < donri> wiktionary has lojban etymology, i love that.
26 Jan 2010 18:32:22 < Sonja> oh neat
26 Jan 2010 18:32:25 < Sonja> for all root words?
26 Jan 2010 18:32:42 < Sonja> i wonder why they used "pensive" and not "think" or something like that
26 Jan 2010 18:32:51 < nonporous> i love wiktionary
26 Jan 2010 18:33:21 < donri> Sonja, as i said, probably because it's the least ambiguous: "think" can be many different concepts in lojban
26 Jan 2010 18:34:12 < donri> "thinking" can also be opining and being concious, and perhaps more
26 Jan 2010 18:34:38 < donri> "i think, therefore i am" "at least i think so" "i'm thinking about this!"
26 Jan 2010 18:35:39 < Sonja> oĥ riĝt
26 Jan 2010 18:35:42 < Sonja> oh right
26 Jan 2010 18:35:51 < nonporous> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cusku
26 Jan 2010 18:35:59 < nonporous> it says "A typo was made in the creation of this word, it should have been "cuska"."
26 Jan 2010 18:36:19 < nonporous> which is the correct word? is it cusku?
26 Jan 2010 18:36:25 -!- pafcribe [n=pafcribe@c-24-128-49-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 18:36:25 < Sonja> it is now cusku forevar!
26 Jan 2010 18:36:40 < nonporous> ah
26 Jan 2010 18:36:45 < pafcribe> coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 18:36:50 < ThirtySeconds> "A typo was made in the creation of this word, it should have been "cuska"."
26 Jan 2010 18:36:57 < donri> i think "donri" was first "dinri", but manually changed for some reason (like, "o" was underused or something, or it was too similar to something else)
26 Jan 2010 18:37:17 < sam_tceipn> Sonja: Mind if I tweet about your Lojban blogging? There's an Esperantist on Twitter who is blogging and tweeting about learning Lojban right now.
26 Jan 2010 18:37:41 < Sonja> sam_tceipn go for it, man. it's the nature of twitter to retweet and so on. you can maybe add #esperanto #lojban since i forgot to do that
26 Jan 2010 18:37:42 < Hussell> "cinri", maybe.
26 Jan 2010 18:38:05 < nonporous> i wonder what it would be like if a random word generator was given all the rules for word construction, and then it was used to make the entire vocabulary- now THAT's culturally neutral
26 Jan 2010 18:38:13 < sam_tceipn> Oh, *re*tweet? I didn't know you were on Twitter.
26 Jan 2010 18:38:22 < nonporous> if people wanted neutrality so much why didn't they just do that?
26 Jan 2010 18:40:15 < Hussell> Neutrality comes in many different forms too. In lojban, mostly dis-entangling multiple meanings given to the same word in some languages but not others, and avoiding culture-specific metaphors. Not that it's easy, otherwise we wouldn't need the word "malgli".
26 Jan 2010 18:40:58 -!- eporim [n=rallon@unaffiliated/eporim] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 18:41:18 < Sonja> yeah lojban is very good at breaking apart different meanings of a word to express which meaning clearly
26 Jan 2010 18:41:19 < nonporous> true
26 Jan 2010 18:41:40 < nonporous> wait so what is it that people claim ISN'T culturally neutral about lojban?
26 Jan 2010 18:41:43 < Sonja> sam_tceipn yeah sonjaelen
26 Jan 2010 18:41:57 < nonporous> is it etymology or culturally biased choice of semantics
26 Jan 2010 18:41:58 < Sonja> nonporous look at my blog entry
26 Jan 2010 18:42:15 < nonporous> link me please?
26 Jan 2010 18:42:21 < Sonja> we have a dedicated root word skoto for a population of 5 million but no root word for nigerian culture (155 million!)
26 Jan 2010 18:42:31 < Sonja> was my example of european cultural bias
26 Jan 2010 18:42:49 < Sonja> http://esperanto.kisa.ca/lerni-lojhbanon-1
26 Jan 2010 18:42:54 < Sonja> sorry, it's in esperanto not english
26 Jan 2010 18:43:01 < nonporous> i see, thanks
26 Jan 2010 18:43:18 < nonporous> haha i was planning to eventually re-learn esperanto anyway
26 Jan 2010 18:43:27 < nonporous> now i have something to look forward to reading
26 Jan 2010 18:43:53 < Hussell> Is there a root word in Esperanto for nigerian culture but not for scotish?
26 Jan 2010 18:44:09 < Sonja> we have root words for both
26 Jan 2010 18:44:31 < donri> i don't speak esperanto, but i can understand that blog post
26 Jan 2010 18:44:34 < Sonja> well if you know Lojban, this page talks about Lojban, so knowing the content matter ŝould help you read it easire
26 Jan 2010 18:44:43 -!- pafcribe [n=pafcribe@c-24-128-49-73.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
26 Jan 2010 18:45:14 < Hussell> It is a bit annoying that root words aren't an open class in Lojban (i.e., adding new root words is frowned upon).
26 Jan 2010 18:46:16 < Sonja> you end up with many cultures with root words for cultural reasons
26 Jan 2010 18:46:21 < Sonja> and other cultures get added as compound words
26 Jan 2010 18:46:28 < Sonja> er historical reasons, not cultural reasons, i meant
26 Jan 2010 18:46:28 < lis_nunyn_> Sonja: Re: Pensi (Possibly because of the overlap between Spanish and English)
26 Jan 2010 18:47:08 < donri> i think the main reason to add gismu is to add rafsi (even if mere four-letter rafsi)
26 Jan 2010 18:47:27 < sam_tceipn> I think the gismu space is plenty large enough to provide a sufficient working vocabulary.
26 Jan 2010 18:47:38 < sam_tceipn> But I'm one of those people that think some of the existing gismu are dumb.
26 Jan 2010 18:47:48 < sam_tceipn> (Mainly the national/cultural ones.)
26 Jan 2010 18:47:52 < donri> which may be meaningful for cultural predicates, as you might want words like "glibau" (english language) etc
26 Jan 2010 18:47:59 < donri> "gligu'e"
26 Jan 2010 18:48:01 < Sonja> i would love to see root words for all the major world cultures and nations if there is room for them
26 Jan 2010 18:48:17 < Sonja> maybe i should suggest one for nigeria in the lojban.org dictionary thingy
26 Jan 2010 18:48:22 < Hussell> Define "major"? By population?
26 Jan 2010 18:48:29 < Sonja> i signed up for lojban.org but i'm waiting for the confirmation email :/
26 Jan 2010 18:48:41 < donri> Sonja, not working?
26 Jan 2010 18:48:51 < Sonja> no. i even tried asking it to resend it.
26 Jan 2010 18:48:56 < donri> Sonja, i can maybe activate your account
26 Jan 2010 18:48:59 < Sonja> do you guys know who administrates it?
26 Jan 2010 18:49:01 < Sonja> neat, thanks donri
26 Jan 2010 18:49:05 < Sonja> my username is... Sonja
26 Jan 2010 18:49:09 < donri> uesai
26 Jan 2010 18:49:22 < sam_tceipn> If Lojban reaches sufficient popularity to start growing organically, I expect to see individual authors try to promulgate reassignments of some of the gismu (by starting their books with "herein I will use X to mean"...)
26 Jan 2010 18:50:04 < lis_nunyn_> If seems odd to me that cultures get gismu at all.
26 Jan 2010 18:50:11 < lis_nunyn_> *It
26 Jan 2010 18:50:11 < Sonja> why are you very surprized?
26 Jan 2010 18:50:23 < sam_tceipn> I think there's a set of 1300 or so gismu that would do a good job and that we could all agree on it, but I suspect the current list isn't quite it.
26 Jan 2010 18:50:24 < lis_nunyn_> Not surprised exactly.
26 Jan 2010 18:50:27 < Hussell> They're pretty useful in compound words.
26 Jan 2010 18:50:38 < lis_nunyn_> Hum.
26 Jan 2010 18:51:08 < donri> Sonja, "Account validated successfully."
26 Jan 2010 18:51:09 < Sonja> i mostly see the need to add more cultures as root words because of the "Lojban is culturally neutral" claim
26 Jan 2010 18:51:13 < Sonja> yay thanks
26 Jan 2010 18:51:25 < lis_nunyn_> I guess because there is a finite number of gismu, and a possibly infinite number of cultures
26 Jan 2010 18:51:30 < Sonja> when you have Scottish included but Nigerian excluded, it shows a huge european bias
26 Jan 2010 18:51:33 < donri> rlpowell, trouble in paradise? Sonja didn't get a validation email (and i'm pretty sure this has happened before)
26 Jan 2010 18:52:06 < Hussell> I noticed the other day that there's no easy way to talk about the difference between "catke" and "lacpu" without using spatial tenses, because there aren't any gismu for "towards" or "away".
26 Jan 2010 18:52:16 < lis_nunyn_> I agree, but I would tend to resolve that by having none, unless the compound word issue is to catastrophic
26 Jan 2010 18:53:36 < donri> Sonja, zo'o with the uesai
26 Jan 2010 18:54:05  * donri commits the deadly lojbanic sin of being sarcastic without marking said sarcasm explicitly
26 Jan 2010 18:54:07 < donri> ;)
26 Jan 2010 18:54:18 < Hussell> Why not just make a list of the top 100 or so cultures, or the ones most useful in compound words, put those in, and be done with it? People will still argue about the ones at that just missed the cutoff.
26 Jan 2010 18:54:44 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.22.17] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 18:54:54 < Sonja> or do it by numbers
26 Jan 2010 18:55:07 < Sonja> every country with as much people as scotland has should be included :P
26 Jan 2010 18:55:14 < lis_nunyn_> And also because that changes
26 Jan 2010 18:55:34 < lis_nunyn_> What cultures there are and how many people they have
26 Jan 2010 18:55:46 < lis_nunyn_> And you would have to exclude lojbani culture
26 Jan 2010 18:55:46 < Hussell> What about cultures that were historically important, but are now extinct? What about cultures that were small in population but had global influence out of all proportion to their size?
26 Jan 2010 18:56:04 <@rlpowell> Sonja/ donri : validation of what?
26 Jan 2010 18:56:07 < Sonja> if one theoretically created a root word for nigeria, how would one proceed?
26 Jan 2010 18:56:23 < donri> rlpowell, lojban.org registration
26 Jan 2010 18:56:25 < Sonja> rlpowell my registration te the lojban.org website
26 Jan 2010 18:56:29 <@rlpowell> Sonja: The gismu are fixed, and we all know they're biased, but i'm afraid you're about 15 years to late.
26 Jan 2010 18:57:01 < Sonja> so it's not possible to create new root words like the one for internet i've sene floating around?
26 Jan 2010 18:57:07 <@rlpowell> Sonja: email address?  (privmsg if you like)
26 Jan 2010 18:57:13 < Sonja> or the one for swedish that donri mentioned
26 Jan 2010 18:57:14 < donri> Sonja, i think the cultural gismu are based on the word in the native language, and ending in -o
26 Jan 2010 18:57:22 <@rlpowell> Oh, you can create them; whether anyone uses them is a whole different issue.  :)
26 Jan 2010 18:57:31 < donri> rlpowell, i validated her account already
26 Jan 2010 18:58:37 < donri> Sonja, and also it must be morphologically valid lojban (duh!) and not too similar to existing gismu (not sure if there are fixed rules regarding that)
26 Jan 2010 18:58:39 <@rlpowell> donri: THat's nice, but without knowing her email address I can't fix the problem.
26 Jan 2010 18:58:45 < donri> oh :)
26 Jan 2010 18:58:53 < Sonja> well it might be a problem for future pople trying to register
26 Jan 2010 18:59:06 < Sonja> i never received the confirmation email that lets me confirm my registration
26 Jan 2010 18:59:12 < Sonja> even after clicking the "resend it" option
26 Jan 2010 18:59:12 < sam_tceipn> Talking about any part of Lojban being immutable seems a little silly to me. The community is still tiny, a Lojban fork that made significant incompatible improvements could overwhelm the original Lojban just by having a few dozen avid practitioners.
26 Jan 2010 18:59:18 <@rlpowell> Yes, and if someone would tell me your email address, I could go find out why.  :)
26 Jan 2010 18:59:26 < donri> Sonja, i think rlpowell intends to debug the issue, for which he'll need to know your address
26 Jan 2010 18:59:38 <@rlpowell> sam_tceipn: I've been meaning to write an essay sort-of about htat, actually.
26 Jan 2010 18:59:47 < Sonja> we could invent a new lanugage, call it lojban-2010, in defiance to lojban trying to restrict us
26 Jan 2010 18:59:53 < Sonja> and then sue each other a few times back and forth
26 Jan 2010 18:59:59 <@rlpowell> :(
26 Jan 2010 18:59:59 < Sonja> and then chaneg all the words around
26 Jan 2010 19:00:01 <@rlpowell> Please don't.
26 Jan 2010 19:00:25 < Sonja> sorry i was just recapping how lojban grew out of loglan and joknig about lojban being the new loglan :)
26 Jan 2010 19:00:31 <@rlpowell> 'k.  :)
26 Jan 2010 19:00:31 < Sonja> didn't want to make you sad
26 Jan 2010 19:01:11 < donri> or we could finish the damned BPFK work and get somewhere with lojban ;P
26 Jan 2010 19:01:19 < Sonja> what is bpfk ?
26 Jan 2010 19:01:33  * donri is not volunteering, though. and blames his inactivity on mental instability.
26 Jan 2010 19:01:35 < Sonja> rlpowell i advertised lojban to esperantonians today
26 Jan 2010 19:01:45  * Sonja feeds moar pills to donri
26 Jan 2010 19:01:51 < donri> baupla fuzykamni, language planning committee
26 Jan 2010 19:02:06 < donri> yay pills omnomnom
26 Jan 2010 19:02:10 < Sonja> ahh the Akademio de Loĵbano :)
26 Jan 2010 19:02:57 < sam_tceipn> Personally, once I'm a fluent Lojban speaker and start generating significant written output, I'm going to start pushing for whatever (carefully-considered) changes I think would make Lojban better, if only by using them (after a warning, in the introduction).
26 Jan 2010 19:03:08 < Sonja> i like creating exchange programs between the popular conlangs :) that's why i'm teaching lojban to esperantonians, or talking about lojban to tokiponeers, etc.
26 Jan 2010 19:03:11 < sam_tceipn> 'ter' => 'tel'...
26 Jan 2010 19:03:53 < sam_tceipn> (Unless someone can explain that.)
26 Jan 2010 19:04:09 < Sonja> is there a script you can plug in a potential lojban loanword in, and it will yell at you if it violates one of the various rules?
26 Jan 2010 19:04:23 < donri> sam_tceipn, perfect. most people say that when they're new, than do little when they're able.
26 Jan 2010 19:04:52 < donri> i suspect most lojbanoids are adhd-types (or something) that initially masturbate to the technical beauty, but somewhat loose interest as they uncover the secrets.
26 Jan 2010 19:04:52 < Sonja> the same thing happens in esperanto and toki pona. n00bs show up claiming they want to reform and fix everything. once they learn the language they realize it wasn't a problem in the first place.
26 Jan 2010 19:05:10 < donri> that's how i function, anyway.
26 Jan 2010 19:05:59 < sam_tceipn> There's a lot that seems odd about Lojban. I'm mostly withholding judgement, since the people who've worked on it seem smart and I figure they probably had reasons.
26 Jan 2010 19:06:02 < donri> Sonja, that, but i also mean, when you're new you visualise how in the future you'll write daily blog posts in the language once you've learned it. but then you never get to actually do it.
26 Jan 2010 19:06:05 < sam_tceipn> But I'm also pretty sure it's not perfect.
26 Jan 2010 19:06:16 <@rlpowell> sam_tceipn: It's not.
26 Jan 2010 19:06:24 < Sonja> i blog in Esperanto and Toki Pona
26 Jan 2010 19:06:31 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
26 Jan 2010 19:06:35 < Hussell> About "ter": if it were "tel", then it would be, e.g., "selyla'i" and "telyla'i". At least now the pain is spread between "l" and "r".
26 Jan 2010 19:06:36 < Sonja> i don't claim to know Lojban though. I'm a n00b
26 Jan 2010 19:07:01 < donri> lojban isn't easy to write fluently in, though, being so different
26 Jan 2010 19:07:12 < donri> and strict
26 Jan 2010 19:07:35 < Sonja> once you've internalized all the vocab and grammar and such, it's no different from any other lanugage you've mastered
26 Jan 2010 19:07:59 <@rlpowell> That's the problem: we're short on vocab.
26 Jan 2010 19:08:13 <@rlpowell> When I was writing LNC, I had to stop every page or two to make up a word.
26 Jan 2010 19:08:15 < Sonja> you have way more than enough words in lojban!
26 Jan 2010 19:08:23 <@rlpowell> (LNC is a novel I wrote in Lojban)
26 Jan 2010 19:08:24 < Sonja> usually 120 should be enough :)
26 Jan 2010 19:08:37 <@rlpowell> Yeah, I think part of the problem is being used to English.
26 Jan 2010 19:08:46 < sam_tceipn> Hussell: I don't see your point, isn't {teryra'i} just as bad? (Ranji doesn't actually have a third place, but you know what I mean.)
26 Jan 2010 19:08:55 <@rlpowell> I'm sure not every language has a word for "sword", for example.  As distinct from "big knife".
26 Jan 2010 19:09:14 < Sonja> i like how some root words are pretty generic
26 Jan 2010 19:09:15 < Hussell> I keep making up new compound words, but that's normal in many languages. English is weird in that it has an enormous vocabulary, so there's already a word for everything.
26 Jan 2010 19:09:16 < lis_nunyn_> sel, tel being the same but for one letter
26 Jan 2010 19:09:24 < donri> Sonja, but our words are not so generic as toki ponas :P
26 Jan 2010 19:09:30 < Sonja> like the root word for a citrus fruit is fairly generic. but if you really wanted to, you could specify a clementine or whatever
26 Jan 2010 19:09:35 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 19:09:37 <@rlpowell> sam_tceipn:  the more different sounds, the easier it is to distinguish two words  
26 Jan 2010 19:09:52 < donri> well, in some ways, the gismu at least try to be generic. but perhaps in a different way than toki pona's words.
26 Jan 2010 19:09:52 < lis_nunyn_> co'o
26 Jan 2010 19:09:52 < iyunkateus> If I wanted to say "remake" (as in a remake of a movie), would it be better to use a lujvo or a fu'ivla?
26 Jan 2010 19:10:11 < Sonja> i'm still trying to figure out the compound word for Toki Pona
26 Jan 2010 19:10:22 < Sonja> xagbau ?
26 Jan 2010 19:10:26 < Hussell> sam_tceipn: yeah, but at least it's "selra'i" and "teryra'i", instead of requiring a "y" on both.
26 Jan 2010 19:10:27 < donri> to'ikpona
26 Jan 2010 19:11:13 <@rlpowell> < Sonja> i'm still trying to figure out the compound word for Toki Pona -- No.  That should be a fu'ivla, not a lujvo.
26 Jan 2010 19:11:19 <@rlpowell> Or a cmevla, of course.
26 Jan 2010 19:11:34 < Sonja> you mean a loanword?
26 Jan 2010 19:11:39 < Sonja> but there's a compound word for Esperanto
26 Jan 2010 19:11:45 < donri> ka'urbau "x1 is Toki Pona / a minimalist language..."
26 Jan 2010 19:11:47 < donri> :D
26 Jan 2010 19:11:55 <@rlpowell> Sonja: Oh?  What would that be?
26 Jan 2010 19:12:02 <@rlpowell> Just because someone made up a word doesn't mean it's a good idea.
26 Jan 2010 19:12:06 < Sonja> ah i see
26 Jan 2010 19:12:13 < Sonja> so esperanto should be a loanword also?
26 Jan 2010 19:12:23 < donri> pa'arbau is a really crap word for esperanto pe'i
26 Jan 2010 19:12:27 <@rlpowell> {Esperanto},  is the gloss word for {spranto}. -- that's a fu'ivla
26 Jan 2010 19:12:33 <@rlpowell> Where are you seeing a lujvo for Esperanto?
26 Jan 2010 19:12:42 < donri> rlpowell, pa'arbau
26 Jan 2010 19:12:44 < donri> pacna bangu
26 Jan 2010 19:12:55 < donri> a little too literal and non-descriptive, pe'i
26 Jan 2010 19:12:59 < Sonja> quantum language
26 Jan 2010 19:13:07 < Sonja> yeah pa'arbau
26 Jan 2010 19:13:28 < Sonja> so i should use {la spranto.} then?
26 Jan 2010 19:13:32 < sam_tceipn> co'o rodo
26 Jan 2010 19:13:35 < donri> no need that pause
26 Jan 2010 19:13:58 < donri> and {la} says it doesn't need to be esperanto, just something called it
26 Jan 2010 19:14:21 < Hussell> Good thing there isn't anything else called "esperanto" then.
26 Jan 2010 19:14:30 < Sonja> mi se bangu la spranto
26 Jan 2010 19:14:33 < donri> so {le spranto} or, {lo spranto} though that might include Ido depending on definition
26 Jan 2010 19:14:58 < donri> Hussell, still "bad" lojban
26 Jan 2010 19:15:36 < donri> somewhat malgli, directly translating names as names
26 Jan 2010 19:15:49 < Hussell> Huh?
26 Jan 2010 19:15:52 < donri> our use of names is a little different
26 Jan 2010 19:16:00 < Sonja> what anclicism did Hussell commit?
26 Jan 2010 19:16:11 < donri> no, you did :)
26 Jan 2010 19:16:36 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 19:17:24 < donri> "Esperanto" is a proper name, but in lojban i find it preferable to actually refer to "something that in fact *is* Esperanto"
26 Jan 2010 19:17:26 < Sonja> so what is the normal Lojban way to say "I speak Esperanto." ?
26 Jan 2010 19:17:36 < donri> mi se spranto
26 Jan 2010 19:17:48 < Sonja> with no extra obligatory pauses or funny business?
26 Jan 2010 19:18:10 < donri> nope, fu'ivla are proper predicates
26 Jan 2010 19:18:41 < donri> well, unlike all other predicates they can begin with vowels, which require a pause.
26 Jan 2010 19:18:43 < Sonja> neat
26 Jan 2010 19:18:57 < Hussell> Is "esperanto" not a valid fu'ivla?
26 Jan 2010 19:19:15 < Sonja> so a loanword is not the same as a proper name that way
26 Jan 2010 19:19:34 < donri> appears to be {e speranto}
26 Jan 2010 19:19:39 < Hussell> Ah, I see.
26 Jan 2010 19:19:50 < Sonja> are any of you on facialbook or last.fm?
26 Jan 2010 19:19:51 -!- noam [n=chatzill@IGLD-84-229-58-215.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
26 Jan 2010 19:19:59 -!- derf0 [n=derf@2001:5c0:1500:4300:0:0:0:e] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 19:20:59 <@rlpowell> -_- "pa'arbau" is *ass*. I'd smack anyone who used it in my presence.
26 Jan 2010 19:21:16 < Sonja> so can we delete it from the dictionary?
26 Jan 2010 19:21:29 < Sonja> so a n00b like me doesn't look it up and think it's the correct nad standard term for esperanto?
26 Jan 2010 19:22:22 < Sonja> rlpowell you recommend using spranto ?
26 Jan 2010 19:22:23 < donri> so how do you like "to'ikpona", O great inventor?
26 Jan 2010 19:22:32 < Sonja> it's a weird mangling of tokipona
26 Jan 2010 19:22:32 <@rlpowell> Sonja: It seems decent enough.
26 Jan 2010 19:22:35 < treed> spero
26 Jan 2010 19:22:38 < treed> FFS
26 Jan 2010 19:22:50 <@rlpowell> treed: experimental gismu FTL
26 Jan 2010 19:22:54 < treed> It's known, though.
26 Jan 2010 19:22:58 <@rlpowell> *shrug*
26 Jan 2010 19:23:02 < donri> yes, our strict morphological rules requires it to be a little mangled
26 Jan 2010 19:23:08 < Sonja> steradian?
26 Jan 2010 19:23:16 < donri> "tokipona" would be the cmavo cluster {to ki po na}
26 Jan 2010 19:23:26 < treed> toxkipona?
26 Jan 2010 19:23:39 < donri> not valid
26 Jan 2010 19:23:42 < treed> falls apart
26 Jan 2010 19:23:43 < treed> damn
26 Jan 2010 19:23:50 <@rlpowell> donri: tokpona
26 Jan 2010 19:24:02 < donri> \o/
26 Jan 2010 19:24:06 < donri> i'e
26 Jan 2010 19:24:37 < Sonja> so i could say "mi se bangu tokpona" ?
26 Jan 2010 19:24:48 < treed> le
26 Jan 2010 19:24:51 < treed> le tokpona
26 Jan 2010 19:24:57 < treed> or lo
26 Jan 2010 19:25:03 < donri> mi se bangu co tokpona ;)
26 Jan 2010 19:25:14 < donri> or just {mi se tokpona}
26 Jan 2010 19:25:19 < treed> you need a place structure though, if you're going to make it a fu'ivla
26 Jan 2010 19:25:21 < donri> the place structure would likely mimic bangu
26 Jan 2010 19:25:25 < Sonja> what is co?
26 Jan 2010 19:25:30 <@rlpowell> Sonja: http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl
26 Jan 2010 19:25:32 < donri> unless you make it about reflecting tokiponan culture in some aspect
26 Jan 2010 19:25:33 < Sonja> mi finti co tokpona ?
26 Jan 2010 19:25:46  * treed sighs.
26 Jan 2010 19:25:57 < treed> I don't suppose anyone taught you what co means and I'm just overreacting right now?
26 Jan 2010 19:26:09 < Sonja> treed i'm a 2-day-old lojbanist
26 Jan 2010 19:26:11 < donri> "co" swaps the order of tanru, swallowing the bridi tail in the process
26 Jan 2010 19:26:15 < Sonja> okay :D
26 Jan 2010 19:26:22 < donri> {mi se bangu co tokpona} = {mi tokpona se bangu}
26 Jan 2010 19:27:31 <@rlpowell> treed: Sonja I absolutely brand-new AFAICT.
26 Jan 2010 19:27:55 < donri> sonja's been around, but perhaps not learning very seriously before?
26 Jan 2010 19:28:03 < Sonja> give me a few more days before i can master the language
26 Jan 2010 19:29:01 < treed> I just thought it was a bad idea for him to suggest co to you in that way.
26 Jan 2010 19:29:18  * donri is a naughty boy
26 Jan 2010 19:30:48 < Sonja> is this http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0966028309?seller=A2STSAFJP9WB2P the same big red book i remember from the mid-90s ?
26 Jan 2010 19:33:56 < treed> Yep.
26 Jan 2010 19:34:00 < treed> we still have cases of them
26 Jan 2010 19:35:59 < nonporous> i ordered one, still waiting on it
26 Jan 2010 19:36:14 < nonporous> i can't wait
26 Jan 2010 19:36:16 < Sonja> i guess they printed too many?
26 Jan 2010 19:38:08 < treed> nonporous: Waiting for how long?
26 Jan 2010 19:38:50 < nonporous> a few days
26 Jan 2010 19:38:53 < treed> Sonja: IMO, yes. We'll proabably still have a ton when we write the 2nd ed.
26 Jan 2010 19:38:57 < treed> nonporous: Oh, okay.
26 Jan 2010 19:38:59 < nonporous> there isn't a problem or anything
26 Jan 2010 19:39:04 < nonporous> just saying i ordered it
26 Jan 2010 19:39:10 < treed> We used to have problems with shipping where it might take weeks before it was actually shipped.
26 Jan 2010 19:39:21 < treed> And have someone else doing the shipping now.
26 Jan 2010 19:39:32 < treed> He's much much better about getting them out promptly
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26 Jan 2010 19:40:40 < nonporous> ah good
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26 Jan 2010 19:40:59 < nonporous> it hasn't been shipped yet
26 Jan 2010 19:41:14 < nonporous> but man am i excited to stop having to read the online version
26 Jan 2010 19:42:45 < Sonja> the reference grammar online is the same content ?
26 Jan 2010 19:44:28 < nonporous> i'm not entirely sure
26 Jan 2010 19:44:40 < nonporous> there's a draft version, but someone here linked me to a more complete one
26 Jan 2010 19:44:46 < nonporous> http://dag.github.com/cll/
26 Jan 2010 19:45:05 < Hugglesworth> donri's has some updates and some fixes
26 Jan 2010 19:45:05 < nonporous> i'm not sure if it's exactly the final print version though
26 Jan 2010 19:45:21 -!- Vesperto [n=vesperto@138.124.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 19:45:41 < Sonja> saluton Vesperto
26 Jan 2010 19:46:00 < Vesperto> Sal' Sonja :)
26 Jan 2010 19:46:25 < Sonja> Ĉu vi parolas Loĵbanon?
26 Jan 2010 19:46:28 < Vesperto> Kiel oni diras "eterna komencanto" lojxbane? Cxar dume mi tio estas...
26 Jan 2010 19:46:33 < Vesperto> Mankas tempo.
26 Jan 2010 19:47:04 < Vesperto> Cxu vi?
26 Jan 2010 19:47:37 < Sonja> mi lernetas. mi ĵus blogis pri loĵbano en esperanto
26 Jan 2010 19:47:45 < Vesperto> Kie?
26 Jan 2010 19:48:02 < Sonja> http://esperanto.kisa.ca
26 Jan 2010 19:48:21 < Vesperto> Ah, vi estas kanadana Sonja, ni jam parolis, mi portugalias.
26 Jan 2010 19:48:54 < Sonja> bone
26 Jan 2010 19:49:18 < neptunepink> nuglEusanusicoi
26 Jan 2010 19:50:02 < Vesperto> Cxu lojxbano ne Usondevenas? Kial la euxropa inklino?
26 Jan 2010 19:50:16 < neptunepink> .oi
26 Jan 2010 19:50:25 < Sonja> la plimulto de usonanoj estas eŭrop-devenaj. ... blankuloj, vi scias.
26 Jan 2010 19:50:32 < neptunepink> What is this fedundicity?
26 Jan 2010 19:50:43 < Sonja> what does fedundicity mean?
26 Jan 2010 19:50:54 < neptunepink> I'm sorry. *fecundicity
26 Jan 2010 19:51:01 < Sonja> like, fertility?
26 Jan 2010 19:51:41 < treed> kio signifas "komencanto"?
26 Jan 2010 19:51:50 < Vesperto> treed:  beginner
26 Jan 2010 19:51:59 < treed> .ua
26 Jan 2010 19:52:24 < Vesperto> Sonja:  iusence ili estas, jes...
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26 Jan 2010 19:52:30 < donri> conlangers, communicating in three languages simultaneously. \o/
26 Jan 2010 19:52:32 < treed> komencanto = ninpre, usually
26 Jan 2010 19:52:38 < neptunepink> None of them being lojban?
26 Jan 2010 19:52:47 < treed> one of them was
26 Jan 2010 19:52:49 < treed> I said .ua
26 Jan 2010 19:52:49 < Sonja> but we're communicating about lojban :)
26 Jan 2010 19:52:50 < donri> and treed succeeds in combining all three in one three-word sentence.
26 Jan 2010 19:52:57 < neptunepink> Oh, okay, that is acceptable then.
26 Jan 2010 19:53:03 < Vesperto> neptunepink:  i'm still a very basic beginner, sorry.
26 Jan 2010 19:53:10 < treed> or just cnino
26 Jan 2010 19:53:16 < Sonja> we were wondering how to say "eternal beginner"
26 Jan 2010 19:53:17 < neptunepink> Vesperto: In english, esperanto, or lojban? :P
26 Jan 2010 19:53:32 < Vesperto> neptunepink:  lojban :)
26 Jan 2010 19:53:47 < neptunepink> I'm sure there's a nice ZAhO.
26 Jan 2010 19:53:54 < treed> "ze'e" estas unu tradukigxo (-ig- aux -igx-?) de "eterna"
26 Jan 2010 19:53:55 < Sonja> ninpre?
26 Jan 2010 19:54:00 < treed> cnino prenu
26 Jan 2010 19:54:01 < Sonja> unu traduko
26 Jan 2010 19:54:01 < treed> new person
26 Jan 2010 19:54:10 < Sonja> n00b
26 Jan 2010 19:54:14 < treed> Yep.
26 Jan 2010 19:54:25 < Sonja> i'm not finding it http://www.lojban.org/cgi-bin/dict.pl?Form=dict.pl1&Strategy=*&Database=en%3C-%3Ejbo&Query=ninpre
26 Jan 2010 19:54:31 < treed> (Also, my Esperanto is hideously rusty)
26 Jan 2010 19:54:40 < Vesperto> Since i don't have much free time for languages at the moment, i'm an "eternal beginner", yes.
26 Jan 2010 19:54:42 < treed> cnino is probably sufficient, honestly
26 Jan 2010 19:54:53 < treed> I just got done ranting about the -pre impulse in another channel.
26 Jan 2010 19:55:05 < treed> malglico
26 Jan 2010 19:55:12 < neptunepink> lojbobangupre
26 Jan 2010 19:55:19 < neptunepink> mi tavlapre
26 Jan 2010 19:55:23 < Hugglesworth> don't want to be a malglipre
26 Jan 2010 19:55:35  * treed darxi la xugl
26 Jan 2010 19:55:39 < neptunepink> That'd make you a bebnapre
26 Jan 2010 19:55:44 < Vesperto> Sonja:  ekde kiam vi lojxbanas?
26 Jan 2010 19:55:53 < Hugglesworth> .ii
26 Jan 2010 19:55:56  * neptunepink me la gugl la xugl
26 Jan 2010 19:55:56 < Sonja> ekde kelkaj tagoj nur
26 Jan 2010 19:56:35 < Vesperto> Sonja:  cxu vi uzas na Anki? Cxu sukcese?
26 Jan 2010 19:56:49 < treed> I reeeeeallly wish they'd port supermemo to iphone.
26 Jan 2010 19:56:55 < Sonja> jes mi uzas Anki en mia Android-poŝtelefono
26 Jan 2010 19:57:06 < Sonja> I use Anki on my Android phone
26 Jan 2010 19:57:14 < Sonja> i think the app is called ankoid or something
26 Jan 2010 19:57:19 < treed> I used anki on my iphone via the web thing
26 Jan 2010 19:57:20 < treed> but it blows
26 Jan 2010 19:57:32 < treed> there was another app that claimed to be compatible, but it wasn't
26 Jan 2010 19:57:41 < Hugglesworth> try iFliprl
26 Jan 2010 19:57:51 < Hugglesworth> iFlipr*
26 Jan 2010 19:58:03 < Vesperto> Which one fo those would you recommend?
26 Jan 2010 19:58:08 < Vesperto> (apps, not phones)
26 Jan 2010 19:58:19 < Sonja> Esperantistoj, kiujn aliajn amuzajn vortojn vi rimarkis krom {pensi} ?
26 Jan 2010 19:58:25 < Hugglesworth> I tried anki, but it blew
26 Jan 2010 19:58:30 < treed> Oh, neat, there is an iphone port now.
26 Jan 2010 19:58:33 < treed> (of supermemo)
26 Jan 2010 19:58:42 < Vesperto> Hugglesworth:  why?
26 Jan 2010 19:58:50 < Sonja> is supermemo similar to anki?
26 Jan 2010 19:59:00 < Sonja> better?
26 Jan 2010 19:59:03 < treed> yes, but older and better, IMO
26 Jan 2010 19:59:04 < Hugglesworth> can't say, just didn't work for me
26 Jan 2010 19:59:11 < iyunkateus> Is {rapyzbaskina} a good lujvo for remake?
26 Jan 2010 19:59:11 < treed> I used to use it on my palm pilot
26 Jan 2010 19:59:20 < treed> Although my primary complaint with anki is the interface.
26 Jan 2010 19:59:31 < treed> I really dislike multi-UI single-ports.
26 Jan 2010 19:59:37 < Vesperto> treed:  judgind a book, eh? ;)
26 Jan 2010 19:59:40 < treed> er that didn't make any sense
26 Jan 2010 19:59:47 < Hugglesworth> Sonja: love your "Speak Finnish like a restless native" page
26 Jan 2010 19:59:50 < treed> One UI for all ports.
26 Jan 2010 19:59:54 < treed> Rather than native UI.
26 Jan 2010 20:00:14 < treed> iyunkateus: Why do you include skina?
26 Jan 2010 20:00:34 < Sonja> hehe thanks Hugglesworth
26 Jan 2010 20:00:44 < iyunkateus> treed: Because I mean a remake of a movie
26 Jan 2010 20:00:56 < treed> And no one will ever want to talk about a remake of a book or anything else?
26 Jan 2010 20:01:00 < treed> Try to make words as general as possible.
26 Jan 2010 20:01:08 < treed> but zbasu isn't what you want
26 Jan 2010 20:01:14 < treed> examine all the places
26 Jan 2010 20:01:15 < ThirtySeconds> <Sonja> are any of you on facialbook or last.fm?<--http://www.last.fm/user/A1th
26 Jan 2010 20:01:17 < treed> you probably want finti
26 Jan 2010 20:01:28 < treed> facialbook? Er?
26 Jan 2010 20:01:31 < treed> Porn network or something?
26 Jan 2010 20:01:48 < iyunkateus> treed: s/facial/face
26 Jan 2010 20:01:53 < iyunkateus> treed: probably
26 Jan 2010 20:02:14 < Hugglesworth> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=name&id=1326820613
26 Jan 2010 20:02:21 < treed> facebook.com/tedreed
26 Jan 2010 20:02:22 < treed> IIRC
26 Jan 2010 20:02:33 < treed> yep
26 Jan 2010 20:02:35 < Vesperto> Don't know mine.
26 Jan 2010 20:04:24 < ThirtySeconds> Sonja what is your last.fm profile?
26 Jan 2010 20:04:32 < treed> Doesn't look like iPhone supermemo allows for import of older supermemo databases.
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26 Jan 2010 20:04:34 < Vesperto> meh, supermemo's too wincentric...
26 Jan 2010 20:04:48 < Sonja> sonjaaa on last.fm i thnk
26 Jan 2010 20:04:56 < Sonja> and on facialbook look me up as sonja elen kisa or sonja@kisa.ca
26 Jan 2010 20:05:16 < iyunkateus> Sonja: s/facial/face
26 Jan 2010 20:05:28 < treed> Vesperto: By which you mean it doesn't run on your platform?
26 Jan 2010 20:05:37 < treed> I used the palmos port years ago.
26 Jan 2010 20:05:48 < ThirtySeconds> Your musical compatibility with Sonjaaa is High
26 Jan 2010 20:05:48 < ThirtySeconds> Music you have in common includes Squarepusher, Mr. Oizo, Plaid, Massive Attack and Aphex Twin.
26 Jan 2010 20:06:13 < Sonja> hehe
26 Jan 2010 20:06:20 < Sonja> braindance friends
26 Jan 2010 20:06:31 < Vesperto> treed:  it runs on a vm i have on my platform, but it'd rather have it native, yes.
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26 Jan 2010 20:12:45 < kizzo> Hmm.. would I be wasting my time if I propose (as a research project) to build English-to-lojban translation software?
26 Jan 2010 20:13:58 < kizzo> Is there software that can take in English text, with or without the aid of a human, translate it into Lojban?
26 Jan 2010 20:14:17 < Vesperto> Straightforwardly... guess not, it would always be a list of pairs.
26 Jan 2010 20:15:14 < selckiku> lojban is a weird language to translate into.. it's really hard even for humans
26 Jan 2010 20:15:33 < kizzo> Because there is software called Relex that can be used to extract the relationships in input text.
26 Jan 2010 20:16:20 < kizzo> And I was wondering if that could be used to translate the text into Lojban, since the meaning can (maybe) be derived.
26 Jan 2010 20:17:13 < kizzo> The software I'm talking about is here: http://opencog.org/wiki/RelEx
26 Jan 2010 20:17:24 < donri> sounds relevant, cool
26 Jan 2010 20:18:02 < kizzo> My point is, from the output that program, it looks like you can tell where all the sumti places (and so on) would go.
26 Jan 2010 20:18:15 < kizzo> s/output/output of /
26 Jan 2010 20:19:32 < donri> you'd probably need also a database of english to lojban predicate mappings
26 Jan 2010 20:22:45 < kizzo> mmhmm
26 Jan 2010 20:23:02 < donri> probably a useful generic project for lojbanistan
26 Jan 2010 20:24:32 < zeotrope> donri: I believe it's called lojbanada :P
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26 Jan 2010 21:00:39 < labnytru> coi
26 Jan 2010 21:02:46 -!- lorx [n=raposa@d137-186-182-16.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lojban
26 Jan 2010 21:03:19 < labnytru> coi rodo
26 Jan 2010 21:07:10 < djanatyn> Sonjaaa: I thought that you were a friend of donri.
26 Jan 2010 21:07:11 < djanatyn> Oops.
26 Jan 2010 21:07:24 < djanatyn> Anyway. I friended you on Facebook, because I speak minimal Toki Pona!
26 Jan 2010 21:07:25 < donri> define friend :)
26 Jan 2010 21:12:13 < lorx> Sonja, how long would it take to learn basic tokipona?
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26 Jan 2010 21:24:35 < donri> you can learn the grammar in a day, the vocab in a few days, fluency probably takes practice
26 Jan 2010 21:29:08 < labnytru> Hey Donri. =D
26 Jan 2010 21:30:36 < donri> hello stranger
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26 Jan 2010 23:45:27 < Hugglesworth> co'o
26 Jan 2010 23:45:29 -!- Hugglesworth [n=raposa@d137-186-182-16.abhsia.telus.net] has quit ["fe'o"]
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26 Jan 2010 23:54:19 < Nuky> coi mi djica
26 Jan 2010 23:54:20 < Nuky> <3?
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27 Jan 2010 00:05:13 < donri> djica mafama
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27 Jan 2010 00:09:10 < Nuky> =P
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27 Jan 2010 00:28:15 < vensa> coi xlaid
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27 Jan 2010 01:31:46 < vensa> coi nukis
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27 Jan 2010 01:37:55 < Nuky_> coi
27 Jan 2010 01:40:14 < mathw> coi
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27 Jan 2010 01:44:50 < vensa> coi redo
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27 Jan 2010 01:49:36 < vensa> doi la'oi mathw .i xu do ba ca'o rapcreze'a ca le cabdei
27 Jan 2010 01:51:54 < mathw> na go'i
27 Jan 2010 01:52:19 < vensa> uinai
27 Jan 2010 01:52:38 < mathw> mi ba tcidu fi lo cukta ca le cabdei
27 Jan 2010 01:53:56 < vensa> le cukta se cmene ma
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27 Jan 2010 02:00:10 < mathw> la'o .gy. The Gathering Storm .gy.
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27 Jan 2010 02:14:49 < vensa> u'u
27 Jan 2010 02:14:52 < vensa> got discoed
27 Jan 2010 02:16:18 < Nuky_> Like the 70's?
27 Jan 2010 02:17:04 < ThirtySeconds> do abstractors change gismu sumti order?
27 Jan 2010 02:17:25 < vensa> no :). Like DISCOnnectED
27 Jan 2010 02:17:28 < Nuky_> Didn't think so?
27 Jan 2010 02:17:36 < Nuky_> vensa, ;)
27 Jan 2010 02:18:06 < vensa> ThirtySecods: I don't understand the question but I would think not. Could you give a more specific example?
27 Jan 2010 02:18:11 <@Broca> ThirtySeconds: abstractors act as a wrapper of a gismu.
27 Jan 2010 02:18:55 < ThirtySeconds> how many of these sumti are ithin that wrapper?: {la jbonunsalci cu nu la robin. salci}
27 Jan 2010 02:18:59 < ThirtySeconds> within*
27 Jan 2010 02:19:55 <@Broca> {la robin} is within; {la jbonunsalci} is without
27 Jan 2010 02:20:38 <@Broca> {la robin} is the x1 of salci, and {la jbonunsalci} is the x1 of {nu la robin. salci}
27 Jan 2010 02:20:49 < ThirtySeconds> thank you
27 Jan 2010 02:21:22 < vensa> doi nukis .i xu do pu mo'u tcidu fi le mumoi ckupau be zo'oi L4B
27 Jan 2010 02:21:58 < Nuky_> No? Yes?
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27 Jan 2010 02:24:32 < vensa> :) have you finished reading the fifth chapter of L4B
27 Jan 2010 02:25:18 < vensa> doi la'oi mathw ma cukta
27 Jan 2010 02:25:45 < mathw> I already told you that vensa :)
27 Jan 2010 02:26:04 < Nuky_> Left for braindead?
27 Jan 2010 02:26:10 < Nuky_> But no =)
27 Jan 2010 02:26:34 < vensa> mathw: I got diconnected and didnt see :(
27 Jan 2010 02:27:35 < mathw> 10:00 < mathw> la'o .gy. The Gathering Storm .gy.
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27 Jan 2010 02:31:13 < Nuky_> I think your words are poison to his connection.
27 Jan 2010 02:32:17 < mathw> well, that could be fun...
27 Jan 2010 02:32:36 <@Broca> http://bash.org/?13213 -- obligatory bash.org reference
27 Jan 2010 02:33:30 < Nuky_> Haha, sweet.
27 Jan 2010 02:38:12 -!- vensa [i=598a7ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-pfsxmhisimcruayo] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 02:38:51 < vensa> diconnected again! O cruel world, will I never learn the name of mathw's book?
27 Jan 2010 02:39:23 < mathw> mi steba du'u lo mi se sampla cu spofu
27 Jan 2010 02:39:38 < mathw> 10:27 < mathw> 10:00 < mathw> la'o .gy. The Gathering Storm .gy.
27 Jan 2010 02:40:19 < vensa> ki'e
27 Jan 2010 02:40:26 < Nuky_> Aww. =P
27 Jan 2010 02:40:31 < mathw> .u'i
27 Jan 2010 02:40:45 < mathw> was {la'o} the proper choice for that, by the way?
27 Jan 2010 02:40:59 < vensa> xu le do se sampla cu za'ure'u spofu vau ue
27 Jan 2010 02:41:15 < vensa> mathw: perfect :)
27 Jan 2010 02:43:05 < vensa> doi le kusru munje do'u o'onai
27 Jan 2010 02:44:36 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out]
27 Jan 2010 02:45:34 < mathw> mi fu'esku la .dan. .i ku'i le spofu cu na snuti .dy.
27 Jan 2010 02:46:31 < vensa> la dan. mo
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27 Jan 2010 02:47:07 < mathw> colleague
27 Jan 2010 02:47:12 < mathw> can't find the word for that
27 Jan 2010 02:48:06 < vensa> I'd try "jibri pendo" perhaps
27 Jan 2010 02:48:13 < vensa> but obviously, he's not your friend :P
27 Jan 2010 02:49:06 < mathw> he's a nice gy
27 Jan 2010 02:49:09 < mathw> but he broke the build
27 Jan 2010 02:49:34 < mathw> but I would probably have made the same kind of error had I been doing that particularly unpleasant task yesterday
27 Jan 2010 02:49:38 < mathw> so...
27 Jan 2010 02:50:06 < vensa> does the person who broke the build get to wear a pointy hat and sit in the corner?
27 Jan 2010 02:51:32 < vensa> ma detri le bavla'i se tigni be le do zgike girzu
27 Jan 2010 03:02:06 < mathw> ?t mi'a nonjdi
27 Jan 2010 03:02:13 < mathw> BANG
27 Jan 2010 03:02:16 < mathw> mi'a nonjdi
27 Jan 2010 03:02:36 < mathw> I didn't even *intend* to feed that to makfa
27 Jan 2010 03:02:51 < mathw> pretty confident about grammar at that level :)
27 Jan 2010 03:06:00 -!- vensa [i=598a7ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-pfsxmhisimcruayo] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
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27 Jan 2010 03:06:45 < vensa> today's wireless issues are going to kill me
27 Jan 2010 03:07:17 < vensa>  I got the "nonjdi" answer :)
27 Jan 2010 03:29:10 < vensa> la'o .gy. The Gathering Strom .gy. cu cukta fi ma
27 Jan 2010 03:35:22 < vensa> how would I ask "What is the GENRE of a book"?
27 Jan 2010 03:37:22 -!- levitation_ [n=levitati@rubiin.physic.ut.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
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27 Jan 2010 03:45:58 < mathw> I have no idea
27 Jan 2010 03:46:12 < vensa> :(
27 Jan 2010 03:47:36 < vensa> xu do'o cikre le se sampla
27 Jan 2010 03:49:28 < mathw> mi'a ca cikre le se sampla
27 Jan 2010 03:49:37 < vensa> uidai
27 Jan 2010 03:50:17 < zariuq> maybe with a mo in a tavla o.o?
27 Jan 2010 03:50:21 < mathw> we know what's wrong, it's just a time-consuming fix process for various irritating reasons
27 Jan 2010 03:50:55 < vensa> a'o do'o snada lenu cikre le se sampla
27 Jan 2010 03:54:25 < vensa> xu la dan. cu ca ca'o dasni lo te jbena sedyta'u gi'e ca ca'o zutse vi le konja
27 Jan 2010 03:56:24 < vensa> de'a jundi
27 Jan 2010 03:58:10 < Nuky_> go'i
27 Jan 2010 04:09:52 -!- lazni [n=lazni@118.71.22.17] has joined #lojban
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27 Jan 2010 04:13:46 < feliks> coi
27 Jan 2010 04:14:28 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lojban
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27 Jan 2010 04:20:58 < timonator> rossi!
27 Jan 2010 04:21:01 < timonator> \o/
27 Jan 2010 04:22:02 < rossi> timo
27 Jan 2010 04:22:22 < rossi> wtf almost half past one
27 Jan 2010 04:22:32 < timonator> yeah
27 Jan 2010 04:22:53 < rossi> in 4 hours i have to go
27 Jan 2010 04:23:00 < rossi> and i have to be charming
27 Jan 2010 04:26:54 < timonator> you don't have to do anything to be charming
27 Jan 2010 04:27:45 < rossi> hopefully judith thinks the same
27 Jan 2010 04:30:08 < timonator> she won't be able to hold herself back
27 Jan 2010 04:30:15 < timonator> from you
27 Jan 2010 04:30:15 < timonator> etc
27 Jan 2010 04:32:44 < vensa> la judit mo
27 Jan 2010 04:33:53 < vensa> coi feliks
27 Jan 2010 04:34:38 < vensa> coi rodo
27 Jan 2010 04:41:38 < feliks> coi
27 Jan 2010 04:41:44 < vensa> coi feliks
27 Jan 2010 04:41:53 -!- eporim_ [n=rallon@unaffiliated/eporim] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 04:42:31 < vensa> do mo cilre fi la lojban
27 Jan 2010 04:44:27 < feliks> go'i
27 Jan 2010 04:44:28 < timonator> co'o rodo
27 Jan 2010 04:44:39 < vensa> co'o timos
27 Jan 2010 04:44:45 < donri> do mo doi cilre be fi la lojban
27 Jan 2010 04:44:45 < feliks> co'o ty
27 Jan 2010 04:44:55 -!- mefistofeles [n=Tathar@unaffiliated/mefistofeles] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 04:45:36 < vensa> feliks: go'i is not an anser to my question... I suspect you haven't gottent to "mo" yet
27 Jan 2010 04:45:45 < rossi> la judith cu melbi ninmu .i nelci ri
27 Jan 2010 04:46:02 < feliks> just looked it up, guess i misunderstood
27 Jan 2010 04:46:11 < vensa> je'e rossi .i uisaidai
27 Jan 2010 04:46:44 < vensa> "mo" asks you to fill in a selbri, in this case - a selbri describing "how" you are learning lojban
27 Jan 2010 04:46:50 < feliks> if you had added xu, would it have been correct?
27 Jan 2010 04:47:03 < feliks> oic
27 Jan 2010 04:47:06 < vensa> if I had added "xu" and dropeed "mo"
27 Jan 2010 04:47:36 < vensa> mo is a diff kind of question, it's more like "ma" but for "selbri"
27 Jan 2010 04:47:50 < vensa> or parts of tanru
27 Jan 2010 04:47:58 < vensa> I could ask "do mo"
27 Jan 2010 04:48:09 < feliks> ok then my answer should prob. by {mi troci nu fanve}
27 Jan 2010 04:48:13 < vensa> which means something like "what are you? -or- what are you doing?"
27 Jan 2010 04:48:34 < vensa> what's fanve?
27 Jan 2010 04:48:47 < vensa> you mean "fanva"
27 Jan 2010 04:48:47 < feliks> sorry fanva
27 Jan 2010 04:48:57 < vensa> "mi troci LOnu fanva"
27 Jan 2010 04:49:28 < feliks> what's the difference between le and lo relating to events?
27 Jan 2010 04:49:51 < vensa> it's a very subtle diff IMO
27 Jan 2010 04:50:00 < vensa> I usually use them interchangeably
27 Jan 2010 04:50:10 < feliks> coz i noticed, with things almost always le is used, and with events always lo
27 Jan 2010 04:50:16 < vensa> but basically it's like, is it a "specific" event or "a possible event"
27 Jan 2010 04:50:34 < feliks> ic
27 Jan 2010 04:50:36 < vensa> "le" is not ALWAYS used with "things"
27 Jan 2010 04:50:39 < vensa> e.g.:
27 Jan 2010 04:50:52 < vensa> lo gerku cu klama
27 Jan 2010 04:51:00 < vensa> "a\some dog\s go"
27 Jan 2010 04:51:04 < vensa> vs:
27 Jan 2010 04:51:09 < vensa> le gerku cu klama
27 Jan 2010 04:51:16 < feliks> understand
27 Jan 2010 04:51:43 < vensa> "the dog\s  (that are understood from context) go"
27 Jan 2010 04:52:00 < vensa> as for events, e.g:
27 Jan 2010 04:52:55 -!- djanatyn-fonxa [n=djanatyn@174-147-231-107.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 04:53:12 < vensa> xu do nelci lonu tavla - would be asking "do you like talking (in general)", whereas - xu do nelci lenu tavla - could be asking "do you like the event of us talking currently"
27 Jan 2010 04:53:17 < vensa> of course it all depends on context
27 Jan 2010 04:54:00 < feliks> i find it a little confusing, because the description actually suggests the opposite: le - the described, lo - the really is
27 Jan 2010 04:54:02 < vensa> btw: you can also use "nu" as a selbri (without lo\le) like you did. I'm just not sure exactly what it means
27 Jan 2010 04:54:27 < vensa> I just think of "lo" as "a" and "le" as "the"
27 Jan 2010 04:54:37 < feliks> i meant to say lenu or lonu
27 Jan 2010 04:54:40 < vensa> "a" dog is "a thing that really is a dog"
27 Jan 2010 04:55:23 < vensa> "the" dog is "something that I have in mind that I am going to call a dog (but it doesn't really have to be a dog - just something I perceive as a dog) - i think thats the justifiication for that confusing definition
27 Jan 2010 04:55:30 -!- eporim [n=rallon@unaffiliated/eporim] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
27 Jan 2010 04:56:12 < vensa> once you understand what "lo" and "le" mean for sumti, you can easily make the generalization for events
27 Jan 2010 04:56:15 < feliks> does that imply the speaker isn't quite sure what it really is?
27 Jan 2010 04:56:21 < vensa> no
27 Jan 2010 04:57:12 < vensa> I think it just has to do with the fact that "what you describe" is not a "fact"
27 Jan 2010 04:57:16 < feliks> i understand the difference between any/some (a generalized) and one (a specific)
27 Jan 2010 04:57:40 < vensa> "the" is not necessarily just "one"
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27 Jan 2010 04:57:58 < vensa> but it is a "specific" that you are "thinking\refering" to
27 Jan 2010 04:58:01 < feliks> yes, also a mass, but a concrete one which is the subject
27 Jan 2010 04:58:35 < vensa> yeah, a specific thing\s
27 Jan 2010 04:59:11 < feliks> i just don't quite understand the difference between 'what i describe/perceive' and 'what really is', from a speaker perspective i wouldn't normally distinguish that unless when dabbling in metaphysics
27 Jan 2010 04:59:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit []
27 Jan 2010 05:00:01 < vensa> when I tell you "I want A dog"
27 Jan 2010 05:00:12 < vensa> you and I both have mental images of what "A dog" really is
27 Jan 2010 05:00:20 < feliks> yes
27 Jan 2010 05:00:23 < vensa> so you can tell what I am refering to
27 Jan 2010 05:01:28 < vensa> now suppose we are talking about something specific
27 Jan 2010 05:01:45 < vensa> since, it is specific then we have both already established what it IS
27 Jan 2010 05:01:56 < vensa> and we can refer to it as "THE dog"
27 Jan 2010 05:02:10 < vensa> even if it is not a Typical mental image of a dog
27 Jan 2010 05:02:17 < vensa> but perhaps "a paper-mache dog"
27 Jan 2010 05:02:41 < feliks> but now you mean sth like THAT ONE there in the store window
27 Jan 2010 05:02:56 < vensa> so, we are "describing" it as a Dog, even though it isn't Really a dog, because the most convenient way to distinguish it from the other paper-mache's in the exhibition
27 Jan 2010 05:03:37 < vensa> feliks: we don't necessarily have to be "seeing" the dog for us to refer to it as "the"
27 Jan 2010 05:03:54 < vensa> it's just that we both Understand what we are talking about
27 Jan 2010 05:04:57 < feliks> of course, but talking about a particular one, right? maybe the one of my in-laws (whose name happens to be feliks as well)
27 Jan 2010 05:05:08 < vensa> I can't say "A dog" and yet mean "A toy dog" or a "paper mache dog"
27 Jan 2010 05:05:33 < vensa> feliks: yes, a particular one
27 Jan 2010 05:06:05 < vensa> the only "catch" is it doesnt have to be a "REAL dog" in the sense of "A dog"
27 Jan 2010 05:06:11 < vensa> the WOOF WOOF kind :)
27 Jan 2010 05:06:15 < feliks> understand :)
27 Jan 2010 05:06:19 < vensa> :)
27 Jan 2010 05:07:26 < feliks> guess i got it
27 Jan 2010 05:07:26 < vensa> so, for events I tend to just take the ["a" vs. "the"] approach when determining whether to call it "lonu" or "lenu"
27 Jan 2010 05:07:32 < vensa> I hope :)
27 Jan 2010 05:07:37 < feliks> :)
27 Jan 2010 05:07:48 < vensa> btw: what chapter are you on?
27 Jan 2010 05:08:17 < feliks> still everywhere, filling in gaps
27 Jan 2010 05:08:27 < vensa> oh right - you're the electorn, right?
27 Jan 2010 05:08:33 < feliks> hehe
27 Jan 2010 05:09:08 < vensa> ma se nanca tu'a do
27 Jan 2010 05:09:33 < feliks> sth else: can i use 'turni' to express 'reigh' in: location ... is reigned by hectic activity (i know it sounds stilted in english, but is common wording in german)
27 Jan 2010 05:10:28 < feliks> were you asking my age?
27 Jan 2010 05:10:35 < vensa> I don't really understand what "is reigned by hectic activity" means
27 Jan 2010 05:10:37 < vensa> yes
27 Jan 2010 05:10:50 < vensa> do you mean  like a kind rules over a land?
27 Jan 2010 05:11:02 < vensa> {kind=>king}
27 Jan 2010 05:11:34 < djanatyn-fonxa> OOH OOH OOH I AM 14
27 Jan 2010 05:11:36 < feliks> no, rather 'the location was filled with hectic activity', so that it dominates everything
27 Jan 2010 05:11:49 < djanatyn-fonxa> ...I like telling my age.
27 Jan 2010 05:11:59 -!- rprije [n=rprije@i218-47-65-157.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:11:59 < djanatyn-fonxa> That explains my immaturity.
27 Jan 2010 05:12:09 < vensa> we know djanatyn
27 Jan 2010 05:12:10 < feliks> in german we use the word 'herrschen' for that, the same as reign/govern
27 Jan 2010 05:12:26 < vensa> what's "hectic activity"
27 Jan 2010 05:12:33 < feliks> i'm 44. that explains my senility
27 Jan 2010 05:12:39 < djanatyn-fonxa> O_o
27 Jan 2010 05:12:47 < vensa> cool
27 Jan 2010 05:12:58 < djanatyn-fonxa> Yay!
27 Jan 2010 05:13:06 < feliks> well, chaotic business, stress, sort of
27 Jan 2010 05:13:10 < vensa> .ije tu'a mi nanca rebi
27 Jan 2010 05:13:15 < djanatyn-fonxa> I think you may be the oldest and most mature one here.
27 Jan 2010 05:13:26 < feliks> i deny mature :P
27 Jan 2010 05:13:31 < djanatyn-fonxa> Wait. Maybe.
27 Jan 2010 05:13:32 < vensa> how does "being filled with chaos" have to do with "governing"?
27 Jan 2010 05:13:35 < vensa> do you mean "anarchy"?
27 Jan 2010 05:13:47 < feliks> no
27 Jan 2010 05:13:53 < vensa> then I dont get it
27 Jan 2010 05:13:53 < feliks> imagine a project approaching deadline
27 Jan 2010 05:13:58 < vensa> oh
27 Jan 2010 05:14:02 < vensa> ok... and?
27 Jan 2010 05:14:04 < feliks> hectic 'reigns' then
27 Jan 2010 05:14:09 < vensa> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
27 Jan 2010 05:14:17 < feliks> at least that's how germans express it
27 Jan 2010 05:14:22 < vensa> oh
27 Jan 2010 05:14:33 < vensa> "chaos dwells there"
27 Jan 2010 05:14:40 < vensa> I guess you could say it in english too
27 Jan 2010 05:14:52 < vensa> In hebrew it's common :)
27 Jan 2010 05:15:01 < feliks> there isn't something stronger than 'dwells'?
27 Jan 2010 05:15:04 < vensa> the phrase, that is :)
27 Jan 2010 05:15:19 < vensa> lee's see
27 Jan 2010 05:15:24 < vensa> {let's}
27 Jan 2010 05:15:24 < feliks> sort of 'dominate'
27 Jan 2010 05:15:29 < vensa> yeah, now I get you
27 Jan 2010 05:15:35 < vensa> let's try to see in lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:16:09 < vensa> first off, you could always use "turni" with "pe'a"
27 Jan 2010 05:16:21 < vensa> that way you describe a "metaphor"
27 Jan 2010 05:16:36 < feliks> k
27 Jan 2010 05:17:04 -!- nonporous [n=Brahim@71.168.72.150] has quit ["Leaving."]
27 Jan 2010 05:17:39 < vensa> le se ganzu cu turni pe'a le mi briju
27 Jan 2010 05:18:01 < vensa> sa
27 Jan 2010 05:18:04 < vensa> lo se ganzu cu turni pe'a le mi briju
27 Jan 2010 05:18:37 < feliks> pe'a comes afterwards, not before?
27 Jan 2010 05:18:40 < vensa> "chaos governs(figuratively) my office"
27 Jan 2010 05:18:48 < vensa> it's an attitudinal
27 Jan 2010 05:19:04 < vensa> so it eaither comes at the start of the sentence and "binds" to the whole sentence
27 Jan 2010 05:19:12 < vensa> or, AFTER the word you want to bind it to
27 Jan 2010 05:19:23 < vensa> I prefered emphasizing the figurative word "turni" itself
27 Jan 2010 05:19:32 < feliks> it's not marked attitudinal in the cmavo list, so i gathered it's modal
27 Jan 2010 05:19:53 < vensa> it's part of selmaho UI3
27 Jan 2010 05:20:00 < vensa> all UIx are attitudinals
27 Jan 2010 05:20:10 < feliks> ah, ok
27 Jan 2010 05:20:12 < vensa> the simple ones are UI1
27 Jan 2010 05:20:40 < vensa> (ui, u'i, all that)
27 Jan 2010 05:21:01 < feliks> i didn't worry about these classes yet, should read
27 Jan 2010 05:21:20 < vensa> they're a  very power and unique feature of lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:21:33 < vensa> I didn't like them at the beginning, but now I cant live without them :)
27 Jan 2010 05:21:40 < feliks> :)
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27 Jan 2010 05:22:11 < vensa> ma seki'u lenu do cilre fi la lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:23:02 < feliks> mi kucli
27 Jan 2010 05:23:38 < vensa> nice :)
27 Jan 2010 05:24:59 < vensa> xu do nelci ma pe la lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:25:54 < vensa> (that's another fun feature of lojban - asking several questions at once)
27 Jan 2010 05:26:49 < vensa> u'u de'a jundi
27 Jan 2010 05:27:06 < feliks> ri cinri mi .i mi na djuno du'u mi nelci
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27 Jan 2010 05:29:04 < feliks> i mean, it's ugly... i guess it can grow on you :)
27 Jan 2010 05:31:18 < vensa> did you mean to say that you don't know "wether or not you like lojabn"?
27 Jan 2010 05:31:31 < feliks> yes
27 Jan 2010 05:31:39 < feliks> but 'like' is such a subjective term
27 Jan 2010 05:31:51 < vensa> that's actually a good place to use "jei" (the truth abstract)
27 Jan 2010 05:32:00 < vensa> mi na djuno jei mi nelci la lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:32:03 < feliks> the first blurb i saw made my eyes bleed, because it doesn't use punctuation for optical structuring
27 Jan 2010 05:32:16 < mathw> It does take... some getting used to
27 Jan 2010 05:32:20 < vensa> => I don't know THE TRUTH VALUE OF (I like lojban)
27 Jan 2010 05:32:27 < feliks> k
27 Jan 2010 05:32:36 < feliks> well it was the same with esperanto at first
27 Jan 2010 05:32:44 < vensa> feliks: can you "hear" punctuation?
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27 Jan 2010 05:33:00 < feliks> no, and i understand now why it is so in lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:33:08 < vensa> good :)
27 Jan 2010 05:33:47 < feliks> but it doesn't help readability. vision works different, you don't parse word by word like a computer, rather you capture an entire image and dissect it
27 Jan 2010 05:34:18 < feliks> for that reason the middle ages invented slashes, which became commas later. etc
27 Jan 2010 05:35:03 < mathw> I think, given that visual layout is pretty irrelevant to Lojban's meaning, we should be able to take suitable care to make sure it reads nicely
27 Jan 2010 05:35:35 < vensa> if you "learn" to "see" terminators as "punctuation marks" I believe you could get your "visual insight" back
27 Jan 2010 05:35:44 < feliks> so far i'm of the opinion that the latin alphabet is rather a crutch. actually it's a crutch in every language but latin
27 Jan 2010 05:36:15 < feliks> maybe with a writing system that accomodates the specialties, things would be better
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27 Jan 2010 05:36:25 < mathw> English could do with a few more letters, yes
27 Jan 2010 05:36:37 -!- vensa_ [i=598a7ac6@gateway/web/freenode/x-xlijefhatonltbuz] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:36:41 < vensa_> damn wireless
27 Jan 2010 05:36:52 -!- Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-165-131-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:37:32 < vensa_> yes, mathw: perhpas it could be "feasible" to devise a system where we "write" e.g. "cu" as "/", we'd just have to remember to pronounce it as "cu" when we speak
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27 Jan 2010 05:38:03 < mathw> that would be bad though
27 Jan 2010 05:38:13 < vensa_> why?
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27 Jan 2010 05:38:16 < feliks> i actually have a draft in my drawer that could be adapted. i'm not sure if that would be received with sincerity though and worth the effort
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27 Jan 2010 05:38:28 < mathw> because it'd remove some of the ease from pronunciation
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27 Jan 2010 05:39:04 < feliks> mathw me too actually
27 Jan 2010 05:39:07 < mathw> Sonja: if you use a mass as the x1, then the mass is dancing, I would think
27 Jan 2010 05:39:07 < vensa_> not necessarily, mathw. you "know" to say "comma" when you see ",". why would you not know to say "cu" when you see "/"?
27 Jan 2010 05:39:09 < donri> Sonja, a mass here means "together"
27 Jan 2010 05:39:30 < vensa_> Sonja: several people can dance together (e.g. in a disco)
27 Jan 2010 05:39:38 < feliks> vensa if that was a commonly agreed symbol for that particular syllable, sure yes
27 Jan 2010 05:39:52 < donri> mi e do dansu, we dance, possibly separated; mi joi do dansu, we dance together
27 Jan 2010 05:40:07 < feliks> you'd have a writing system that's part phonetic, part syllabic
27 Jan 2010 05:40:15 < Sonja> so "mass" means group of people
27 Jan 2010 05:40:16 < feliks> like old egyptian e.g.
27 Jan 2010 05:40:17 < donri> or mi'o, which is basically mi joi do (i think)
27 Jan 2010 05:40:18 < vensa_> feliks: so I'm just saying that "hypothetically" such a system could be devised.
27 Jan 2010 05:40:27 < donri> Sonja, well, group "as a group"
27 Jan 2010 05:40:32 < vensa_> feliks: like cursive writing and regular writing
27 Jan 2010 05:40:36 < donri> (and potentially with only one member :P)
27 Jan 2010 05:41:25 < vensa_> feliks,mathw: I think it would be pretty "neat". you'd just have to be able to find enough "different looking "slashes"" for all the cases of terminsators out there:)
27 Jan 2010 05:41:39 < mathw> which would be difficult
27 Jan 2010 05:41:45 < feliks> vensa i'd rather envision something that uses special symbols for the most commonly used structure words, that are easily discernable
27 Jan 2010 05:41:46 < vensa_> I think makfa's "t" command does "something" like that
27 Jan 2010 05:42:13 < vensa_> feliks: what structure words for e.g.?
27 Jan 2010 05:42:26 < feliks> beginning with .i
27 Jan 2010 05:42:30 < vensa_> mathw: it could be a combination of two or more symbols like "{["
27 Jan 2010 05:42:50 < feliks> that's the most important to make out in a blurb
27 Jan 2010 05:42:55 < feliks> cu is also a good candidate
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27 Jan 2010 05:43:39 < vensa_> feliks: yeah, structure words: either terminators or "beginners": like .i, ni'o, poi, etc
27 Jan 2010 05:43:40 < donri> makfa also has a "??" command that runs "t" on the latest lojban in #lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:43:48 < donri> FWIW
27 Jan 2010 05:44:08 < donri> the "i'm a lazy punk who don't speak lojban" command. :)
27 Jan 2010 05:44:19 < vensa_> feliks: what's the "draft" in your drawer about?
27 Jan 2010 05:44:43 < mathw> donri: increasingly I'm using it as 'I don't know all that vocabulary' because I'm getting more and more structural stuff stuck in my head
27 Jan 2010 05:44:44 < feliks> it could be a combination of slash with sth else: /& for .i, /§ for ni'o, @ for cu etc.
27 Jan 2010 05:44:51 -!- vensa_ is now known as vensa
27 Jan 2010 05:44:55 < mathw> donri: and it's faster than looking each unknown gismu up
27 Jan 2010 05:45:03 < feliks> a writing system i devised a while ago
27 Jan 2010 05:45:45 < vensa> feliks: very good examples off the top of your head :)
27 Jan 2010 05:45:53 < feliks> :)
27 Jan 2010 05:45:56 < vensa> feliks: specifically a writing system for lojban?
27 Jan 2010 05:46:15 < feliks> no, but it could be adapted to fit lojban quite well
27 Jan 2010 05:46:21 < vensa> cool
27 Jan 2010 05:46:33 < feliks> i had this idea when i saw runes:
27 Jan 2010 05:46:43 < feliks> to bring optical and acoustic impression closer together
27 Jan 2010 05:46:51 < vensa> feliks: I thing it would be fantastic if you could write up a document that defines all these symbols
27 Jan 2010 05:47:09 < vensa> of course youd better check with the "elders" to make sure that no such system has already been defined
27 Jan 2010 05:47:12 < feliks> in my alphabet, consonants are based on a vertical stem, vowels on a horizontal one
27 Jan 2010 05:47:22 < feliks> that expresses the time needed to pronounce them
27 Jan 2010 05:47:36 < vensa> feliks: question is: are your symbols defined in unicode?
27 Jan 2010 05:47:52 < vensa> I think it would probably be better to use unicode (or even ascii) symbols, for simpleness
27 Jan 2010 05:48:24 < feliks> this is not the abbreviation symbols i made up just now above
27 Jan 2010 05:48:53 < vensa> yeah. I understand
27 Jan 2010 05:49:10 < feliks> i'm using the normal latin alphabet, but the font is different, and utmostly more flexible
27 Jan 2010 05:49:13 < vensa> you seem like your talking about some kind of alphabet that could perhaps replace the WHOLE of the latin letters used in lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:49:20 < feliks> yes
27 Jan 2010 05:49:24 < vensa> that too is cool - but less practical since no one would have them on their keyboard
27 Jan 2010 05:49:43 < feliks> you don't have to change your keyboard, you just use a different font
27 Jan 2010 05:50:09 < vensa> well, fonts arrent widely supported
27 Jan 2010 05:50:09 < vensa> e.g. in IRC
27 Jan 2010 05:50:30 < feliks> i'm not saying it would be easily adapted in here
27 Jan 2010 05:50:45 < feliks> but for printed works maybe
27 Jan 2010 05:50:45 < vensa> so no one would use it
27 Jan 2010 05:50:57 < vensa> let's start small
27 Jan 2010 05:51:11 < vensa> the world isn't ready for THAT yet :)
27 Jan 2010 05:51:18 < feliks> i gather :)
27 Jan 2010 05:51:20 < vensa> yeah
27 Jan 2010 05:51:27 < feliks> but then it'll never be
27 Jan 2010 05:51:30 < vensa> heck, maybe you could devise a font-type for lojban
27 Jan 2010 05:51:49 < vensa> that would incorporate your unique characters
27 Jan 2010 05:51:51 < mathw> you'd have to get a unicode mapping for it
27 Jan 2010 05:51:55 < mathw> then you'd be fine
27 Jan 2010 05:51:56 < vensa> and also the terminator characters
27 Jan 2010 05:52:20 < vensa> yeah. who do you have to sleep with in order to get a unicode value?
27 Jan 2010 05:52:32 < mathw> I don't know
27 Jan 2010 05:52:33 < feliks> can always use the proprietory field
27 Jan 2010 05:52:53 < feliks> until lojban dominates the world :P
27 Jan 2010 05:52:58 < mathw> heh
27 Jan 2010 05:53:09 < vensa> the IEE?
27 Jan 2010 05:53:09 < vensa> the ANSI?
27 Jan 2010 05:53:19 < vensa> what's that
27 Jan 2010 05:53:30 < vensa> :)
27 Jan 2010 05:53:33 < feliks> what's what?
27 Jan 2010 05:53:37 < mathw> unicode's got its own governing body
27 Jan 2010 05:53:42 < vensa> "proprietory field"
27 Jan 2010 05:53:47 < feliks> oh
27 Jan 2010 05:53:50 < mathw> how do I talk about how long something will take
27 Jan 2010 05:54:03 < vensa> ze'i\ze'a\ze'u
27 Jan 2010 05:54:04 < mathw> like if I want to say I'm going to read for half an hour
27 Jan 2010 05:54:10 < feliks> there is a section reserved for own purposes
27 Jan 2010 05:54:15 < vensa> oh
27 Jan 2010 05:54:22 < feliks> that you can always use for special applications
27 Jan 2010 05:54:29 < vensa> but can you cause it to be "deployed" to other users?
27 Jan 2010 05:54:32 < feliks> they're just not standard, so you can't expect other software to support it
27 Jan 2010 05:54:37 < vensa> oh
27 Jan 2010 05:54:38 < vensa> IC
27 Jan 2010 05:54:44 < feliks> yes, if they just use the same font
27 Jan 2010 05:54:49 < vensa> mathw: do you want to be specific about the half hour?
27 Jan 2010 05:54:52 < feliks> or one that is encoded the same way
27 Jan 2010 05:55:23 < feliks> brb, got to dash out for a few mins
27 Jan 2010 05:55:46 < mathw> vensa: yes
27 Jan 2010 05:56:02 < mathw> I know how to say when I'm going to read
27 Jan 2010 05:56:07 < mathw> I just don't know how to say how long for
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27 Jan 2010 05:56:25 < vensa> I think somethinf like s=this:
27 Jan 2010 05:56:28 < vensa> mi ba pu'o tcidu ze'a lo cacra be li pimu
27 Jan 2010 05:57:32 < Sonja> so dansu has x2 as the music but no x3 for the name of the dance?
27 Jan 2010 05:57:50 < vensa> I will-be haven't-started-yet reading for-medium-interval a hour of a 0.5
27 Jan 2010 05:59:02 < vensa> Sonja: I guess they didn;t think it would be important. obviously they were wrong
27 Jan 2010 06:00:01 < vensa> moreover: dances are usually "culture biased"
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27 Jan 2010 06:00:17 < vensa> so it wouldn't be a lojban word anyway
27 Jan 2010 06:00:17 < sam_tceipn> Sonja: You'd use {me'e} for that, I imagine.
27 Jan 2010 06:00:37 < vensa> yep
27 Jan 2010 06:00:44 < vensa> mi dansu me'e la flamenko
27 Jan 2010 06:01:10 < sam_tceipn> Have you been introduced to modals?
27 Jan 2010 06:01:28 -!- kribacr [i=42c07e03@gateway/web/freenode/x-ltbilhlgaeltbyng] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 06:02:12 < vensa> coi kribacr
27 Jan 2010 06:02:46 -!- feliks [n=xyz@f052058128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 06:02:47 < kribacr> coi la vensa
27 Jan 2010 06:03:42 < vensa> kribacr: is there a writing system for Lojban that uses distinct characters for terminators\structure cmavo?
27 Jan 2010 06:04:08 < kribacr> Not that I know of.
27 Jan 2010 06:04:13 < kribacr> I'm not sure I'd want one, either.
27 Jan 2010 06:05:22 < vensa> feliks had just expressed his initial "disgust" from seeing a page of lojban text, which is "visually" not structured in any way.
27 Jan 2010 06:05:46 < vensa> I  promptly explained that Lojban is more about "hearing" and "pronouncing" the structure words
27 Jan 2010 06:06:20 < vensa> but he does have a point, that sometimes it is easier to READ a text that has visual markers like - / ; etc
27 Jan 2010 06:08:25 < kribacr> feliks: When you first looked at a page of English or $natlang text, did you know what periods and quotation marks and question marks were?
27 Jan 2010 06:08:41 < vensa> he's AFK for a while
27 Jan 2010 06:08:46 < kribacr> Ah, okay.
27 Jan 2010 06:08:52 < kribacr> Well, I'll address it to you, then.
27 Jan 2010 06:08:55 < vensa> kribacr: I agree that one shouldn't LEARN lojban that way
27 Jan 2010 06:09:17 < vensa> but isn't it a good idea to have an "additional" writing system for such a purpose
27 Jan 2010 06:09:30 < vensa> sorta like english has the "cursive" system for purpose of fast-writing
27 Jan 2010 06:09:55 < kribacr> My point is that all of those markers are are symbols. Likewise, you could potentially learn to treat words like {ku} or {li'u} or whatever as being "structural" words, they pop out more than you think.
27 Jan 2010 06:10:09 < kribacr> "structural" words in the form of symbols that is.
27 Jan 2010 06:10:19 < kribacr> {lu} isn't a word to me. It's a quotation mark. Get what I'm saying?
27 Jan 2010 06:10:22 < vensa> even if you "don't" know what "periods and question marks are" they are distinct from letters or at least they are "single" characters. most of them are also elongated, which makes them look like "delimieters"
27 Jan 2010 06:10:45 < vensa> kribacr: I GET what your saying
27 Jan 2010 06:11:13 < vensa> but isn't it a bit confusing that "lu" is composed of "l" and "u", which are both "letterals" that could potentially appear in diff kinds of "regular" words also?
27 Jan 2010 06:11:26 < kribacr> Sure, but that's why we have spaces.
27 Jan 2010 06:11:33 < kribacr> And that's why we (well, I) hate clustering.
27 Jan 2010 06:11:35 < kribacr> Hate hate hate.
27 Jan 2010 06:11:42 < vensa> what's clustering?
27 Jan 2010 06:11:48 < kribacr> lonu vs. lo nu
27 Jan 2010 06:11:52 < vensa> oh
27 Jan 2010 06:12:04 < vensa> look, basically I agree with you
27 Jan 2010 06:12:21 < kribacr> I don't really think it's all that useful. But its use and usefulness is by definition subjective.
27 Jan 2010 06:12:35 < vensa> I think A. the pronounciation is important to remember. and B. if you were a child growing up with these structure-words they would probably look like "commas" to you
27 Jan 2010 06:12:41 < kribacr> I think it's likely to be more of a crutch than an aid.
27 Jan 2010 06:13:13 < feliks> back
27 Jan 2010 06:13:21 < kribacr> wb, please read upscroll. :)
27 Jan 2010 06:13:28 < feliks> yes :)
27 Jan 2010 06:13:41 < vensa> I think it could be very cool, if every terminator\structure word, had as part of its definition, also a symbol (that contains no "regular" letters) that can be used for it's graphical representation
27 Jan 2010 06:13:54 < kribacr> The problem is that there are so many.
27 Jan 2010 06:14:04 < kribacr> I think there are something like 22 terminators...?
27 Jan 2010 06:14:06 < vensa> kribacr: feliks suggested:: /& for .i, /§ for ni'o, @ for cu etc.
27 Jan 2010 06:14:10 < vensa> I think it's pretty cool
27 Jan 2010 06:14:22 < feliks> well, the main point would be to easier facilitate /visual/ perception, which in humans does not work on a strictly sequential basis
27 Jan 2010 06:14:30 < vensa> you can use two-part symbols like the above
27 Jan 2010 06:14:40 < feliks> the difference in lojban is, you actually pronounce those symbols unlike in other languages
27 Jan 2010 06:15:05 < kribacr> It seems like an extra layer of work on top of what you have already.
27 Jan 2010 06:15:18 < vensa> so what - it's not mandatory.
27 Jan 2010 06:15:25 < vensa> just for written work
27 Jan 2010 06:15:29 < kribacr> Well, if you want to use it, and want people to understand it, it would be.
27 Jan 2010 06:15:34 < vensa> and I think it's not that much ":extra" work
27 Jan 2010 06:15:45 < kribacr> If I look at lojban and see a bunch of symbols in it, I have to learn those symbols in order for it to mean anything to me.
27 Jan 2010 06:15:54 < vensa> it could be kinda lake xml tags
27 Jan 2010 06:16:06 < feliks> i see no reason why lu/li'u couldn't be pronounced as easily when you write e.g. /".."\ for it
27 Jan 2010 06:16:16 < vensa> e.g. "poi"= "<%" and ku'o="%>"
27 Jan 2010 06:16:19 < vensa> just a thought
27 Jan 2010 06:16:58 < vensa> kribacr: isn't "( bla )" more visually understandable than "to bla toi"?
27 Jan 2010 06:17:11 < feliks> a computer doesn't get bleeding eyes from parsing, but a human does
27 Jan 2010 06:17:18 < donri> vensa, only because you're used to one of them
27 Jan 2010 06:17:25 < vensa> terminators and "starters" could be made to visually "look" like they "match"
27 Jan 2010 06:17:25 < feliks> the purpose of a writing system is to facilitate that
27 Jan 2010 06:17:32 < kribacr> I don't mean to be contrarian to you or discourage you from coming up with ideas to help the community. But at this rate you're looking at probably 100 different symbols.
27 Jan 2010 06:17:34 < donri> "(to bla toi)" is fine
27 Jan 2010 06:17:42 < feliks> otherwise we could just use ascii codes
27 Jan 2010 06:18:13 < vensa> donri: it's not just that 'm used to parentathes. it is also visually clear that ")" complements "("
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27 Jan 2010 06:18:37 < donri> vensa, cognitive bias in action, it's beautiful. :)
27 Jan 2010 06:18:59 < feliks> kribacr, there is a list with words sorted by frequency of appearance. one could start at the top and just stop eventually when we run out of easily discernable symbols
27 Jan 2010 06:19:25 < vensa> donri: fine that it doesn't have to be a diff symbol that looks opposite
27 Jan 2010 06:19:47 < vensa> in could be "^(" and "!("
27 Jan 2010 06:19:56 < vensa> start paranthesis and end parenthasis
27 Jan 2010 06:20:17 < gunkamanti__> coi la vensa xu do cnino
27 Jan 2010 06:20:26 < vensa> kribacr: hundreds??? of structure words?
27 Jan 2010 06:20:35 < vensa> mi milxe cnino
27 Jan 2010 06:20:37 < feliks> it could be done in a voting process, then freeze-trial, then re-evaluation. like the whole project already
27 Jan 2010 06:20:41 < gunkamanti__> je'e
27 Jan 2010 06:21:18 < feliks> not hundreds. a couple dozen, maybe
27 Jan 2010 06:21:41 < feliks> it's not meant to be overdone, or you get an optical impression that's worse than before
27 Jan 2010 06:21:46 < vensa> there's: the abstractions, the relative clauses, the connective clauses perhaps, what else?
27 Jan 2010 06:22:03 < vensa> feliks: probably more that 24
27 Jan 2010 06:22:09 < feliks> just those things that really give structure
27 Jan 2010 06:22:16 < vensa> I'm guessing around 50
27 Jan 2010 06:22:26 < feliks> maybe, but really not more
27 Jan 2010 06:22:35 < vensa> maybe
27 Jan 2010 06:22:46 < feliks> remember, the purpose is instant recognition of the overall image, not alphabet soup
27 Jan 2010 06:23:41 < feliks> you can try that with an easy experiment: blur your eyes when looking at a piece of text, and see what still stands out if you can't read the letters anymore
27 Jan 2010 06:23:48 < donri> there are 598 cmavo.
27 Jan 2010 06:23:49 < vensa> de'a jundi
27 Jan 2010 06:24:14 < vensa> donri: we're not talking EVERY cmavo
27 Jan 2010 06:24:17 < vensa> just structure ones
27 Jan 2010 06:24:19 < vensa> not BAI
27 Jan 2010 06:24:21 < vensa> not COI
27 Jan 2010 06:24:24 < donri> all cmavo are structure words. :)
27 Jan 2010 06:24:26 < donri> per definition.
27 Jan 2010 06:24:29 < vensa> fine
27 Jan 2010 06:24:32 < vensa> de'a jundi
27 Jan 2010 06:24:51 < donri> i prefer to enhance orthography over replacing it
27 Jan 2010 06:24:58 < donri> e.g. "(to mupli toi)"
27 Jan 2010 06:25:19 < donri> "¿ma nelci?"
27 Jan 2010 06:25:31 < feliks> the punctuation marks have evolved over centuries, it makes no sense to me to just throw that out
27 Jan 2010 06:25:48 < donri> lojban is design, not evolution
27 Jan 2010 06:25:49 < feliks> donri, i don't think that would work in lojban
27 Jan 2010 06:26:04 < donri> evolution is inefficient and stupid
27 Jan 2010 06:26:15 < feliks> aw naw
27 Jan 2010 06:26:21 < feliks> i'm not even going there
27 Jan 2010 06:26:51 < donri> i'm not necessarily using stupid in the explicitly pejorative connotation
27 Jan 2010 06:27:17 < feliks> the difference to natlangs is that in lojban those things are pronounced. therefore replacement would be better than adding the marks
27 Jan 2010 06:27:18 < donri> evolution exists and works because nature is unintelligent, and evolution requires no intelligence
27 Jan 2010 06:27:47 < feliks> 'nelci' wouldn't be pronounced differently from 'nelci?'
27 Jan 2010 06:28:00 < feliks> but perhaps ?a for ma makes sense
27 Jan 2010 06:28:12 < donri> no, because these are visual cues
27 Jan 2010 06:28:23 < donri> like some write pauses even though it's not needed
27 Jan 2010 06:28:32 < feliks> exactly
27 Jan 2010 06:28:48 < feliks> and that's not what i was aiming at
27 Jan 2010 06:28:54 < donri> ok, so how do you write xu? "?u"? that reads like "mu" :D
27 Jan 2010 06:29:07 < feliks> just at something that makes recognition /easier/, for the most important structure elements
27 Jan 2010 06:29:30 < donri> you're only saying that because you're not used to the structure
27 Jan 2010 06:29:56 < donri> hey, we could stuff in words to hint at the structure! lets do that
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27 Jan 2010 06:33:45 < kribacr> donri: That was my point. They just haven't adjusted to the structure.
27 Jan 2010 06:33:56 < kribacr> I'm sorry, guys, but you're not likely to convince many of us.
27 Jan 2010 06:36:28 < kribacr> Quotes and terminators is about 30 words right there, and if you're doing phrases / clauses that's even more.
27 Jan 2010 06:36:31 -!- durka42 [n=Adium@d252.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 06:36:39 < kribacr> Just avoid clustering and you'll learn the words quickly enough.
27 Jan 2010 06:37:58 < vensa> kribcar: of course you elders are already "used" to the structure. but don't you think that it's a big discouragement for new people learning the language when they see apiece of text that "appears" so "cluttered"?
27 Jan 2010 06:38:32 < donri> thing with enhancing over replacing is that it's backwards compatible for people who don't know/want your system, you can reuse the same symbols for different structures, and it's easier to read even if you try to use symbols
27 Jan 2010 06:38:36 < vensa> I think there would be no harm in merely, supplementing to the language, by adding a layer of symbols to represent structure words
27 Jan 2010 06:39:06 < vensa> donri: I didn't get that?
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27 Jan 2010 06:39:20 < vensa> dori: oh, I did
27 Jan 2010 06:39:35 < vensa> sure, I'm PRO enhancement, perhaps.
27 Jan 2010 06:39:44 < vensa> what was the argument against enhancement feliks?
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27 Jan 2010 06:40:39 < donri> zo »mupli« e lu »mupli« cu mupli (to i'edai toi) (sei mupli finti)
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27 Jan 2010 06:41:08 < donri> although arguably SEI is rather more like *bla*
27 Jan 2010 06:41:37 < vensa> xu? le gerku cu| nelci le mlatu poi{ blabi ku'o}
27 Jan 2010 06:41:37 < kribacr> I have less aversion to that than to pure replacement, but I still (personally) don't like it.
27 Jan 2010 06:41:47 < donri> OH GOD THAT'S UGLY.
27 Jan 2010 06:41:54 < kribacr> Yeah, I don't like that at all.
27 Jan 2010 06:41:55 < donri> wtf "cu|"
27 Jan 2010 06:42:05 < donri> how does that even make sense
27 Jan 2010 06:42:06 < vensa> got a better idea?
27 Jan 2010 06:42:08 < kribacr> donri's is fine.
27 Jan 2010 06:42:13 < kribacr> vensa: Sure!
27 Jan 2010 06:42:21 < kribacr> .i xu le gerku cu nelci le mlatu poi blabi
27 Jan 2010 06:42:25 < kribacr> Looks great! :)
27 Jan 2010 06:42:25 < vensa> very funny
27 Jan 2010 06:42:32 < vensa> je'unai
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27 Jan 2010 06:42:50 < donri> ¿xu le gerku →cu nelci le mlatu?
27 Jan 2010 06:43:04 < donri> not sure about that →, for starters i just don't really feel a need for a symbol for cu
27 Jan 2010 06:43:18 < vensa> donri: that's cute. just didn't have the motivation to use non-keyboard symbols
27 Jan 2010 06:43:25 < donri> all keyboard for me :)
27 Jan 2010 06:43:34 < vensa> well I dont have linux
27 Jan 2010 06:43:40 < donri> uinaidai
27 Jan 2010 06:43:40 < vensa> so shoot me :)
27 Jan 2010 06:43:46 < donri> vi'o
27 Jan 2010 06:44:06 < donri> sei darxi bedo li 999 jursa
27 Jan 2010 06:44:16 < kribacr> .u'i
27 Jan 2010 06:44:35 < donri> digits are one thing that non-few people actually replace with symbols
27 Jan 2010 06:44:39 < donri> 999 = sososo
27 Jan 2010 06:44:46 < vensa> hehehe
27 Jan 2010 06:44:55 < kribacr> Yeah. I'm far more okay with numerical replacement and numerical clustering than any other mods.
27 Jan 2010 06:45:18 < vensa> so, what's the diff between replacing numbers and replacing terminators?
27 Jan 2010 06:45:37 < donri> kribacr, but it's so easy to spot a compound, it's not a big issue
27 Jan 2010 06:45:40 < kribacr> With numbers, you're actually building a cohesive unit.
27 Jan 2010 06:45:55 < vensa> ?
27 Jan 2010 06:45:59 < kribacr> donri: Sometimes, but not always.
27 Jan 2010 06:46:01 < donri> "any consonant cluster in the like first syllable? no? CMAVOS!"
27 Jan 2010 06:46:13 < vensa> what?
27 Jan 2010 06:46:32 < vensa> nm
27 Jan 2010 06:47:13 < donri> sososo = cmavos, srososo = sr is a cmavo cluster = maybe a fu'ivla?, sososroso = well, this is abit evil, and i do not approve. but it starts with a few cmavo, then a possible brivla.
27 Jan 2010 06:47:31 < donri> sr is a consonant cluster*
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27 Jan 2010 06:48:57 < donri> well, first two syllables. if now that works 100% (the rule is first five letters, ignoring some stuff like maybe ' and y)
27 Jan 2010 06:49:05 < feliks_> damn, was disconnected
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27 Jan 2010 06:49:47 < vensa> feliks: any POV on "enhancing" instead of "replacing"?
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27 Jan 2010 06:49:56 < donri> coi djeims
27 Jan 2010 06:49:57 < vensa> e.g:  ¿xu le gerku →cu nelci le mlatu?
27 Jan 2010 06:50:08 < kribacr> coi cy.
27 Jan 2010 06:50:14 < feliks_> no, i believe that is natlang thinking
27 Jan 2010 06:50:28 < feliks_> replacing would do better in lojban
27 Jan 2010 06:50:35 < donri> BUT IT'S JUST VISUAL AIDS FOR READING
27 Jan 2010 06:50:38 < vensa> but isn't it a decent enough "visually coherent" compromise?
27 Jan 2010 06:51:10 < donri> it does *not* break A/V iso-morphism
27 Jan 2010 06:51:12 < feliks_> no it's not just visual aids for reading, since in lojban those 'aids' are actually pronounced
27 Jan 2010 06:51:29 < vensa> so?
27 Jan 2010 06:51:38 < donri> it's like saying intonation breaks AVI
27 Jan 2010 06:51:41 < vensa> you don't need to pronounce the symbols
27 Jan 2010 06:51:42 < feliks_> therefore i suggested a partly syllabic script which replaces the most important structure words with easily recognizable symbols
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27 Jan 2010 06:51:50 < cmacis> coi rodo
27 Jan 2010 06:52:06 < donri> feliks_, they are not pronounced
27 Jan 2010 06:52:18 < vensa> feilks: but then you really loose the advantage of having the pronounciation embeedded in the text
27 Jan 2010 06:52:31 < feliks_> well i'm fairly new, but i gathered one of the iron principles is that in lojban writing and pronunciation are strictly coherent
27 Jan 2010 06:52:36 < vensa> I think what donri is suggesting is a good compromise
27 Jan 2010 06:52:57 < donri> and a lot of people already like and approve of this
27 Jan 2010 06:53:04 < vensa> feilks: yeah, but the "symbol-enhanced" script would just be a diff "Style" of writing
27 Jan 2010 06:53:05 < feliks_> therefore no 'enhancing symbols' that are omitted in speaking
27 Jan 2010 06:53:13 < donri> and people can read it regardless of knowing of it previously
27 Jan 2010 06:53:28 < vensa> a computer would parse a lojban speech stream as the letter structure cmavo
27 Jan 2010 06:53:33 < kribacr> I know Twey hyphenates words that bind in some way (which I also don't really like)
27 Jan 2010 06:53:37 < feliks_> of course they do because it's natlang :)
27 Jan 2010 06:53:51 < vensa> a writer may choose to add symbols for visual clariity
27 Jan 2010 06:54:17 < vensa> I think if we agree on a standard for visual enhancements, it would be great
27 Jan 2010 06:54:26 < kribacr> Good luck on that.
27 Jan 2010 06:54:29 < vensa> becuz we all do it to some extent - that we it would atleast be standardized
27 Jan 2010 06:54:40 < feliks_> well, any enhancement would be good but if it breaks design principles it won't work
27 Jan 2010 06:55:01 < donri> feliks_, do you omit intonation when you speak lojban vocally?
27 Jan 2010 06:55:03 < vensa> feliks: what does that mean?
27 Jan 2010 06:55:34 < kribacr> I think it's different here from English. I mean... English punctuation marks aren't just visual aids. A question isn't a question without a question mark. Period.
27 Jan 2010 06:55:34 < feliks_> donri, i don't have enough experience to make a qualified statement on that
27 Jan 2010 06:55:51 < donri> well, we don't omit intonation.
27 Jan 2010 06:56:08 < kribacr> Enhancement might come in the form of multiple question marks, if you're retarded.
27 Jan 2010 06:56:12 < kribacr> Don't and can't.
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27 Jan 2010 06:56:29 < donri> intonation 1) makes it easier to listen to, 2) doesn't communicate essential information (use attitudinals where necessary), 3) are not represented in written
27 Jan 2010 06:56:39 < feliks_> but we don't need it to be understood, we use intonation intuitively but it's not relevant for meaning. right?
27 Jan 2010 06:56:53 < donri> orthographical extensions 1) makes it easier to read, 2) doesn't communicate essential information, 3) are not represented in spoken
27 Jan 2010 06:57:04 < donri> this does not break audio-visual isomorphism.
27 Jan 2010 06:57:08 < donri> that's not what AVI is about.
27 Jan 2010 06:57:09 < Hussell> I came in halfway through this conversation, but have you already discussed http://www.lojban.org/tiki/shorthand+symbols ?
27 Jan 2010 06:57:47 < kribacr> That's basically the kind of thing we're on about, Hussell.
27 Jan 2010 06:57:53 < kribacr> I don't like it at all, except maybe numbers.
27 Jan 2010 06:58:33 < Hussell> I like one or two of the others. Particularly symbols for "gi'e" and "ko'a", both of which are extremely frequent, yet 4 characters.
27 Jan 2010 06:58:34 < feliks_> i hadn't seen that yet, but on a quick look, it doesn't look like the enhancement i talked about
27 Jan 2010 06:59:02 < kribacr> [gi'e is part of a series though. As is {ko'a}.
27 Jan 2010 06:59:10 < kribacr> {gi'e} even.
27 Jan 2010 06:59:22 < Hussell> So? The others of the series are much less frequently used.
27 Jan 2010 06:59:44 < kribacr> *brain explode*
27 Jan 2010 07:00:00 < feliks_> if you replaced only that one cmavo .i with, say, #, imagine how much easier it will be to read a paragraph
27 Jan 2010 07:00:11 < feliks_> because human vision does /not/ work sequential
27 Jan 2010 07:00:24 < kribacr> {.i} stands out quite a bit to me. I don't think it will be that much easier.
27 Jan 2010 07:00:58 < feliks_> try blurring your eyes over such a paragraph, you'll see the difference
27 Jan 2010 07:01:02 <@xalbo> I dislike any form of replacement.  I don't want to have to learn whether you're using & for {gi'e}, {je}, {.e}, {ge}, {gu'e}, or what.
27 Jan 2010 07:01:07 < Hussell> I guess you won't approve of the way I just write {i} without the pause symbol, then.
27 Jan 2010 07:01:16 < feliks_> of course you can make them out when you're trained, but it could be even faster
27 Jan 2010 07:01:39 < kribacr> I much prefer writing the pause, but I find solitary {i} just as outstanding.
27 Jan 2010 07:01:47 <@xalbo> I think { .i } is more visuallly distinctive than { # }.
27 Jan 2010 07:02:14 < kribacr> timos I think writes {i} and not {.i}, and I don't have any trouble with it. (Sorry for name activation!)
27 Jan 2010 07:02:18 <@xalbo> Hussell: Do you, like xorxes, consistently just not write any dots?
27 Jan 2010 07:02:21 < Hussell> Someone proposed - for i on that page.
27 Jan 2010 07:02:28 < Hussell> Yes.
27 Jan 2010 07:02:47 <@xalbo> That works.  Be sure to include your spaces.
27 Jan 2010 07:02:52 < Hussell> I never, ever, forget the whitespace between words.
27 Jan 2010 07:03:38 < selckiku> coi
27 Jan 2010 07:04:52 <@xalbo> I have no strong objection to augmenting written lojban with symbols.  I do strongly object to replacing lojban words with a set of unpronounceable symbols.
27 Jan 2010 07:04:57 <@xalbo> coi la selckiku
27 Jan 2010 07:05:04 < kribacr> coi sy.
27 Jan 2010 07:05:29 < sam_tceipn> I've been playing with my formatting to see what I prefer. Right now I'm writing all dots, but omitting the whitespace in cmavo clusters and between e.g. gadri and PU tenses and the sumti they're connected to.
27 Jan 2010 07:06:05 < feliks_> but they're not unpronounceable. they'd be just syllabic symbols. i mentioned old egyptian above, that had them, too
27 Jan 2010 07:06:27 < sam_tceipn> I'm finding it easier to read lojban when I can rely on whitespace to be mainly separating the sumti and selbri, without all the cmavo sticking out all over the place.
27 Jan 2010 07:06:40 < kribacr> sam_tceipn: Clusters by what standard?
27 Jan 2010 07:06:47 < kribacr> Any time cmavo are next to each other?
27 Jan 2010 07:06:52 < sam_tceipn> Pretty much.
27 Jan 2010 07:07:04 < sam_tceipn> (That would be the formal definition of "cmavo cluster" more or less, as I understand it.)
27 Jan 2010 07:07:08 < kribacr> I very much dislike that.
27 Jan 2010 07:07:32 < sam_tceipn> Yes, you mentioned.
27 Jan 2010 07:07:35 < kribacr> :P
27 Jan 2010 07:07:46 < sam_tceipn> I decided to mention my opinion since it seems to be a little different from the others I'd seen.
27 Jan 2010 07:07:47 <@xalbo> feliks_: They're only pronouncable if you know each one individually.  They expand the alphabet from 22 (or what is it?) characters, each with it's own phoneme, into many, many more, many of which are entire *words*.
27 Jan 2010 07:08:24 < kribacr> I don't mind it as much if the clusters make at least a little sense and as long as people absolutely understand that clustering changes nothing in terms of meaning.
27 Jan 2010 07:08:37 < sam_tceipn> From my recent e-mail to the list: {.ua.ui mi pujinvi lodu'u sarcu falonu mi finti ta .i ki'e.prplposAIdn.}
27 Jan 2010 07:08:40 < kribacr> I run into people quite frequently that think that clusters have special definitions. I did when I started.
27 Jan 2010 07:09:19 < kribacr> {pujinvi} really makes me think lujvo almost instantly.
27 Jan 2010 07:09:31 < selckiku> they almost sort of did have definitions, bitd.  people would say "lenu" all the time, as if that were a word.  it felt like it was a word.
27 Jan 2010 07:09:36 < feliks_> xalbo, yes of course. i see only little effort in learning just a few symbols. more than 2 dozen would be counterproductive to the original idea. they would clutter the image instead of enhance it
27 Jan 2010 07:09:55 < selckiku> "pujinvi" makes me think "wtf is pu doing hanging onto jinvi, um well ok"
27 Jan 2010 07:10:38 < kribacr> selckiku: I guess. I remember after I learned xorlo and I started clustering {lonu} people started correcting me on it, which greatly confused me.
27 Jan 2010 07:11:16 < feliks_> ok.. i'm running out of time. thanks folks for an interesting discussion
27 Jan 2010 07:11:22 < kribacr> co'o fy.
27 Jan 2010 07:11:26 < selckiku> one thing it's taken lojbanic culture very long to learn is when are the right contexts and what are the right manners in which to correct someone
27 Jan 2010 07:11:28 < kribacr> ki'e
27 Jan 2010 07:11:32 < selckiku> co'o fy.
27 Jan 2010 07:11:44 < feliks_> co'o
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27 Jan 2010 07:12:01 < kribacr> I correct everyone because I'm a teacher. (And an asshole.)
27 Jan 2010 07:12:11 < kribacr> (Likewise, I love it when I'm corrected. I still fuck up a lot.)
27 Jan 2010 07:12:12 <@xalbo> I still sort of like thin space for "cmavo clusters" (where a "cluster" here doesn't have a distinct meaning, but is semantically grouped together.)
27 Jan 2010 07:12:38 < kribacr> Thin space I could probably get behind.
27 Jan 2010 07:12:49 < selckiku> if someone identifies you as a teacher, and also gets positive reinforcement from you, i think that's an appropriate time to correct them.  they'll feel like "ok good my teacher is helping me understand".
27 Jan 2010 07:12:57 <@xalbo> (I'd do it more, but people have complained that it's not in their fonts, and pasting it into jbofihe breaks it)
27 Jan 2010 07:13:10 < kribacr> je'e la xalbo
27 Jan 2010 07:13:16 < selckiku> i've heard the idea of thin spaces but i've never actually read text written that way
27 Jan 2010 07:14:07 < selckiku> what intimidates people is when they get here and no matter what they say or who they say it to, they always get a correction.. it makes it feel too difficult
27 Jan 2010 07:14:23 <@xalbo> .i xu do djica lo nu co'e
27 Jan 2010 07:14:40 < selckiku> .i djica ma sa'e
27 Jan 2010 07:15:06 < kribacr> If I correct someone almost any time they speak I will at least respond to what they say and explain why I make the correction. This is especially true of common beginner mistakes. I never intend to frustrate.
27 Jan 2010 07:15:27 <@xalbo> lo nu mi cinla me me'o kunti bu ciska pe'a
27 Jan 2010 07:15:46 < kribacr> If I corrected absolutely everything anyone ever said, that'd make me Compu-Celebi, and I *DON'T* want that.
27 Jan 2010 07:15:49 < selckiku> you make corrections as part of an overall process of progress, that's healthy... before we had no teaching, just people would try their best to speak, and get shot down
27 Jan 2010 07:16:11 < kribacr> Right.
27 Jan 2010 07:16:12 < selckiku> .i .ua doi la xalbo mi milxe lo ka djica .i xu do pu ciska lo simsa
27 Jan 2010 07:16:14 < timonator> kribacr: i'm always happy to see someone thought of me while i'm gone
27 Jan 2010 07:16:18 < kribacr> .u'i
27 Jan 2010 07:16:22 < kribacr> .i prami ty.
27 Jan 2010 07:16:33 < timonator> conversely, i'm always a little sad when i get up in the morning and my awaylog is empty :(
27 Jan 2010 07:16:40 < kribacr> Aww... :(
27 Jan 2010 07:17:21 <@xalbo> .i pu ciska .i lo'u .i xu le'u .e lo'u lo nu le'u .e lo'u kunti bu le'u mupli
27 Jan 2010 07:17:30 <@xalbo> pe'i pei
27 Jan 2010 07:18:48 < selckiku> .i mi na viska .i skami fliba ju'o cu'i
27 Jan 2010 07:19:28 < kribacr> .i li'a do fliba vau bua'a'a
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27 Jan 2010 07:19:54 < kribacr> .i lanme fi ko doi selckiku
27 Jan 2010 07:20:25 <@xalbo> .i xu lo'i ro lerfu ku simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u dunli lo ni rotsu
27 Jan 2010 07:21:50 < selckiku> .i na go'i do'e mi
27 Jan 2010 07:22:13 < selckiku> .i ku'i le kunti bu cu simxu dunli rotsu
27 Jan 2010 07:23:18 <@xalbo> je'e .i doi drata do'u do xu simxu dunli bo rotsu viska
27 Jan 2010 07:24:33 < Hussell> mi viska lo terfrica
27 Jan 2010 07:26:07 < selckiku> so i guess that's why i've never seen it before! :)
27 Jan 2010 07:26:26 <@xalbo> It's pretty subtle, I'll agree.
27 Jan 2010 07:26:27 < Hussell> lo ni terfrica cu cmalu
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27 Jan 2010 07:27:58 <@xalbo> .i mi pensi lo nu mi troci lo cizra
27 Jan 2010 07:28:10 < selckiku> .i xu ba go'i
27 Jan 2010 07:28:33 < selckiku> .i mi ta'e troci lo cizra
27 Jan 2010 07:28:37 <@xalbo> .u'i
27 Jan 2010 07:29:23 < selckiku> .i ma cizra gi'e se troci do
27 Jan 2010 07:29:35 <@xalbo> May be too annoying, though.  En space on either side of {.i} and anywhere a terminator or {cu} is elided, thin space inside clusters.
27 Jan 2010 07:29:47 < selckiku> hmm
27 Jan 2010 07:30:27 < selckiku> do we have a parser that turns the sumti places different colors, like x2 = purple?  that might help nintadni read
27 Jan 2010 07:31:23 <@xalbo> I don't think we do.
27 Jan 2010 07:31:25 < selckiku> the only thing i have any trouble reading is like, gejyspa's esther, and it's not the spacing i have trouble with :)
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27 Jan 2010 07:32:06 < kribacr> selckiku: Color scheming as part of a parser (and underside brackets) are something I'd really like to launch along with my new lessons as soon as I can plan those out.
27 Jan 2010 07:33:18 < selckiku> if you could somehow use color and other attributes to also code the selma'o of cmavo, and the nesting of bridi, i think it could help a lot in understanding it
27 Jan 2010 07:33:41 < selckiku> just having the UI be set out a different color would help a lot in parsing some things, when we throw in UI in confusing places
27 Jan 2010 07:34:09 < selckiku> lojban's supposed to be a computer interfaceable language, dammit
27 Jan 2010 07:34:50 < donri> i find weird clustering artistic. it's like words like "methinks".
27 Jan 2010 07:35:15 < selckiku> part of the problem is that it's so marginally parseable.. my loglisp i'm working on would be pathetically easy to color & stuff
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27 Jan 2010 07:35:28 < Sonja> coi
27 Jan 2010 07:35:37 < selckiku> coi la'oi Sonja
27 Jan 2010 07:35:38 < donri> coi la za'e sonja
27 Jan 2010 07:35:53 < selckiku> .u'i coi do la sonja do sonja ma
27 Jan 2010 07:35:58 < kribacr> I've thought of a number of different coloring schemes from as simple as coloring brivla / cmavo / cmevla differently to as complex as combining colors based on roles. (A selbri might be blue, a sumti red, and then a selbri within a sumti purple, etc)
27 Jan 2010 07:36:13 < selckiku> lo'u coi doi la le'u mi se djisku
27 Jan 2010 07:36:31 < selckiku> we should just put out all the options, who knows what's going to be useful to someone
27 Jan 2010 07:36:39 < kribacr> That was the idea.
27 Jan 2010 07:36:41 < kribacr> Let the user pick.
27 Jan 2010 07:36:48 < donri> background boxing is probably more useful than foreground coloring
27 Jan 2010 07:36:49 < kribacr> selckiku: Have you ever heard of Dasher?
27 Jan 2010 07:37:05 < selckiku> what will be useful to them is whatever grammar they've been confused by lately, which in my experience wanders around semirandomly sometimes going back to the same thing again, "wait, HOW does that this work again??"
27 Jan 2010 07:37:07 < selckiku> omg yes dasher is awesome
27 Jan 2010 07:37:16 < kribacr> I want web interfaces to work like dasher.
27 Jan 2010 07:37:25 < kribacr> Not just for my jbo lessons, but all of them.
27 Jan 2010 07:37:38 < selckiku> that's a good idea
27 Jan 2010 07:38:00 <@xalbo> http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~adam/lojban/ckafi3.html
27 Jan 2010 07:38:05 < donri> ue i couldn't write quick for shit with dasher (english)
27 Jan 2010 07:38:11 < kribacr> Hyperlinks are too rigid. Content should flow more freely. (This leads to the idea of preloading links - of course the problem with this is viruses.)
27 Jan 2010 07:38:14 < kribacr> I got fairly decent at it.
27 Jan 2010 07:38:15 < donri> is it especially good for lojban or something?
27 Jan 2010 07:38:16 <@xalbo> I think the background boxing can be pretty slick.  I just never did that much with it.
27 Jan 2010 07:38:32 < kribacr> That's brain explody.
27 Jan 2010 07:38:38 < kribacr> I don't care much for that. I'd rather have under-bars.
27 Jan 2010 07:39:10 < selckiku> well we're moving past the web
27 Jan 2010 07:39:23 < selckiku> we should look to using dasher as a linked data inferface
27 Jan 2010 07:39:25 < selckiku> interface
27 Jan 2010 07:39:56 < selckiku> you go to some fact or item, and stuff about it comes up, and then you can zoom toward that stuff to bring up its connections
27 Jan 2010 07:40:54 < selckiku> i wonder how we could put out linked data about lojban?
27 Jan 2010 07:41:39 < selckiku> you know what word i would use almost as much as "ni'o"?  a word that means "new topic, btw, starting LAST sentence"
27 Jan 2010 07:41:42 < donri> no'ise'i co'o rodo lo binxo belo sipna midu ai
27 Jan 2010 07:41:45 < donri> yyyyyy
27 Jan 2010 07:41:58 < selckiku> co'o la donri
27 Jan 2010 07:42:11 < selckiku> .a'o lo melbi do li'i senva
27 Jan 2010 07:42:21 < donri> no'ise'i for "anyway"
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27 Jan 2010 07:43:04 < donri> "returning to the old subject we didn't yet discuss, but that i meant to bring up"
27 Jan 2010 07:43:05 < donri> :D
27 Jan 2010 07:43:20 < selckiku> .ua .u'i
27 Jan 2010 07:44:05 < Sonja> does anybody remember the url to a page that has all gismu in one page
27 Jan 2010 07:44:23 < Sonja> with links to anchors
27 Jan 2010 07:44:31 < donri> http://lojbo.org/gismu.html
27 Jan 2010 07:44:43 < selckiku> http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.txt ?  oh with links, maybe at jbotcan?
27 Jan 2010 07:44:52 < selckiku> huh what's this lojbo.org? .a'u
27 Jan 2010 07:45:58 < selckiku> wow there's little that i understand at lojbo.org!  now i know how other peoples feel about lojban.org being all in english :)
27 Jan 2010 07:46:12 < Hussell> http://jbotcan.org/gismulinked.html
27 Jan 2010 07:46:18 < donri> Sonja, also valsi.org/the-word-to-look-up
27 Jan 2010 07:46:26 < donri> turns referenced words to links
27 Jan 2010 07:46:45 < timonator> cool
27 Jan 2010 07:46:51 < Sonja> found it on jbotcan
27 Jan 2010 07:47:08 < donri> dbrock seems to have dropped index listing o_O
27 Jan 2010 07:47:11 < selckiku> wow, valsi.org is awesome
27 Jan 2010 07:47:55 < selckiku> i've been there before, but i forgot
27 Jan 2010 07:48:00 < donri> dbrock should add an opensearch xml to it
27 Jan 2010 07:49:36 < Sonja> how do you say "that thing smells like roses" ?
27 Jan 2010 07:49:41 < selckiku> .i mi so'u .o'a .o'u roi pilno lo vlaste ca le ca cedra .ui .i mi na'e nelci le pu'u cafne vlaste bo pilno
27 Jan 2010 07:50:16 < selckiku> lo simsa be lo panci be lo rozgu cu panci ti
27 Jan 2010 07:50:18 < Sonja> you have to use se sumne with a metaphor?
27 Jan 2010 07:50:45 < Sonja> ah panci
27 Jan 2010 07:51:06 < selckiku> sumne and panci are similar, kind of like catlu and viska i think
27 Jan 2010 07:51:17 < selckiku> you could also use a metaphor
27 Jan 2010 07:51:25 < selckiku> ti rozgu pe'a se sumne
27 Jan 2010 07:51:38 < Sonja> i was hoping there would be a root word meaning x1 has the odour of x2
27 Jan 2010 07:51:49 < donri> ta se panci loka rozgu
27 Jan 2010 07:52:42 < donri> Sonja, well, that is {se panci}
27 Jan 2010 07:52:54 < Hussell> lo va selpanci be lo kamyzgu
27 Jan 2010 07:52:59 < donri> (fi zi'o, but who cares)
27 Jan 2010 07:53:29 < Sonja> do se panci le rozgu = you smell of rose?
27 Jan 2010 07:54:27 < selckiku> no, that puts "le rozgu" as a panci, a scent
27 Jan 2010 07:54:35 < Hussell> Hence "le"
27 Jan 2010 07:55:10 < donri> do ce lo rozgu simxu loka se panci
27 Jan 2010 07:55:14 < donri> do ce lo rozgu cu simxu loka se panci
27 Jan 2010 07:55:31 < selckiku> a [panci] is a scent, a [se panci] is what has that scent, and the [te panci] is who or what smells it
27 Jan 2010 07:55:46 < Hussell> do selpanci lo zgusmi
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27 Jan 2010 07:56:03 < donri> although that might imply that some rose smells like you. which actually "you smell like a rose" would too. see, lojban is good for analysing language.
27 Jan 2010 07:56:04 < selckiku> other than metaphorically or as an odd (malgli) description, a [rozgu] is only a [se panci]
27 Jan 2010 07:56:48 < selckiku> .io doi jvofi'i mi nelci zo zgusmi
27 Jan 2010 07:57:00 < Sonja> so which is the basic lojban way to say "you smell of roses" ? i'm still confused
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27 Jan 2010 07:57:20 < donri> lo panci belo'e rozgu cu panci do
27 Jan 2010 07:57:44 < Sonja> why is it so long? what is it literally saying?
27 Jan 2010 07:57:47 < donri> lo panci belo'e rozgu do panci
27 Jan 2010 07:57:51 < selckiku> .i da'i lo drata be zo rozgu cu cmene lo rozgu .i je ku'i je'u zgusmi titla se panci
27 Jan 2010 07:57:56 < selckiku> co'o
27 Jan 2010 07:58:12 < donri> Sonja, long because i'm obsessing about correctness and your sentence is highly metaphorical :)
27 Jan 2010 07:58:39 < Sonja> it's highly metaphorical to describe the smell something has?
27 Jan 2010 07:58:39 < Hussell> Literally "the scent of typical roses, you smell-of-it"
27 Jan 2010 07:58:40 < donri> "the odour of a typical rose is the odour of you"
27 Jan 2010 07:59:09 <@xalbo> {.i zo'e pe lo rozgu do panci} is probably what I'd do.  Or certainly {.i do simsa lo rozgu lo ka panci ce'u}
27 Jan 2010 07:59:44 < donri> or {loka se panci} simply
27 Jan 2010 07:59:49 <@xalbo> yeah, that too.
27 Jan 2010 08:00:11 < Hussell> do se panci lo zgusmi <=> you emit-scent a rose-like-thing
27 Jan 2010 08:01:30 < kribacr> If you wanted to be vague you could always say {.i do co'e lo rozgu panci}
27 Jan 2010 08:01:30 < donri> do panci simsa lo rozgu, for a more literal translation
27 Jan 2010 08:01:30 < donri> "you smell like a rose"
27 Jan 2010 08:01:30 < Hussell> Or, "You smell of some rose-like-thing."
27 Jan 2010 08:01:39 < kribacr> Or yes, that.
27 Jan 2010 08:01:59 < Hussell> do pansmi lo rozgu
27 Jan 2010 08:02:28 < donri> do zgupansmi
27 Jan 2010 08:02:32 < donri> SHORT ENOUGH?
27 Jan 2010 08:02:46 <@xalbo> For is it not written, "Go not to the jbopre for counsel, for they will say both {na go'i} and {go'i}, as well as {na'e go'i}, {no'e go'i}, {go'i na'i} and {lo mamta be do cu sofybakni}."?
27 Jan 2010 08:03:13 < donri> go'i cu'i
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27 Jan 2010 08:03:46 <@xalbo> I think {do rozgu se panci} is the nicest simple but vague version.
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27 Jan 2010 08:04:36 < donri> you rosishly odour-omit
27 Jan 2010 08:04:37 < donri> mwahah.
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27 Jan 2010 08:18:36 < kribacr> Okay, I whipped up something quick to kinda show what I'd like to see in a parser / interpreter.
27 Jan 2010 08:18:50 < kribacr> Uploading to ImageShack right now.
27 Jan 2010 08:19:32 < kribacr> http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2694/99355340.jpg
27 Jan 2010 08:19:48 < kribacr> I know it's low rez and I didn't include every terminator, but  you should at least be able to get the idea.
27 Jan 2010 08:20:29 < kribacr> It's similar to the box thing. I'd really like to see something along these lines.
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27 Jan 2010 08:22:10 < TheSiah> That looks cool.
27 Jan 2010 08:23:19 < kribacr> I like the idea that any structural unit has the same color. I may revise this so that a bridi doesn't span the whole length of itself but rather crteates a heirarchy of its sumti. So a bridi is graphically connected to all of its sumti.
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27 Jan 2010 08:23:27 < kribacr> All of which will be labelled by their place. So FA, or BAI, or whatever.
27 Jan 2010 08:23:47 < TheSiah> Would be a great thing!
27 Jan 2010 08:23:48 < sam_tceipn> Can someone tell me what {bo} is doing in {.i ni'ibo do na du ti}? I've only encountered it in tanru.
27 Jan 2010 08:24:31 < kribacr> {bo} can be used with tags to bind the whole bridi attached.
27 Jan 2010 08:25:14 < kribacr> It makes the claim that the {bo}'d bridi is true regardless of whether the previous is true (I think).
27 Jan 2010 08:25:22 < kribacr> {bo} is useable in a bunch of places.
27 Jan 2010 08:25:51 <@xalbo> Not quite.
27 Jan 2010 08:25:59 < kribacr> I'm kinda fuzzy on it.
27 Jan 2010 08:26:02 < kribacr> I'm sure xalbo knows.
27 Jan 2010 08:26:55 <@xalbo> {.i BAI bo} joins two sentences, making the previous one a tagged sumti of the other.  So it's like {.i ni'i lo su'u go'i ku}
27 Jan 2010 08:27:44 < sam_tceipn> Aj.
27 Jan 2010 08:27:46 < sam_tceipn> *Ah.
27 Jan 2010 08:28:17 <@xalbo> Works for all tags, although I think for tenses it ends up backwards (or is it for tags?  This is one thing that I always get confused about)
27 Jan 2010 08:30:20 < sam_tceipn> Oh - so {ckafi pinxe .ipubo mi klama} is "I arrived prior to coffee-drinking"?
27 Jan 2010 08:30:32 <@xalbo> Ahh, had to look it up.  It's that direction for tenses.  For BAI, it's the other way around.  {broda .i ni'i bo brode} is {broda ni'i lo su'u brode}.
27 Jan 2010 08:31:01 <@xalbo> Yes.
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27 Jan 2010 08:31:10 < sam_tceipn> "travel", not "arrive", but you get it.
27 Jan 2010 08:31:57 <@xalbo> (This dissimilarity is probably my biggest pet peeve with lojban, in fact.  It pisses me off every time I think about it.  It's the *one* place where the tags can't just be treated as a single kind of thing.)
27 Jan 2010 08:32:00 < sam_tceipn> Why the inconsistency between tenses and BAI modals?
27 Jan 2010 08:32:08 < sam_tceipn> (Beat me to it.)
27 Jan 2010 08:32:13 <@xalbo> Stupid historical reasons.
27 Jan 2010 08:32:26 < kribacr> Yeah, that seems ... brain explodey why it would be like that.
27 Jan 2010 08:32:43 < kribacr> So how do the tenses work with {bo} then if BAI works as above?
27 Jan 2010 08:33:21 <@xalbo> One mnemonic, though, is that although {ba} is related to {balvi}, it's actually most like {fi'o *se* balvi}.  So it's filling an implicit x2, not an x1 as with BAI.
27 Jan 2010 08:33:50 <@xalbo> {broda .i ba bo brode} is {brode ba lo su'u broda}.
27 Jan 2010 08:33:56 < kribacr> So what you're saying is {broda .i ba bo brode} is actually {brode ba lo nu broda} ?
27 Jan 2010 08:34:02 <@xalbo> Yes.
27 Jan 2010 08:34:05 < kribacr> *explode*
27 Jan 2010 08:34:08 < kribacr> Yeah, that hurts my brain.
27 Jan 2010 08:34:46 < kribacr> That hurts bad.
27 Jan 2010 08:34:55 <@xalbo> Originally, BAI were sort of haphazard, and so were tenses.  Later on, they got much more similar grammatically, to the extent that they were almost identical.
27 Jan 2010 08:35:21 <@xalbo> But before that happened, the patterns for sentence connection were already established.
27 Jan 2010 08:36:08 < kribacr> I think that just became my pet peeve.
27 Jan 2010 08:36:27 < kribacr> I've never really liked {bo} in the first place, though, despite its usefulness.
27 Jan 2010 08:39:16 < sam_tceipn> Nobody has felt like writing a proposal to the byfy about this? Or it's been submitted and rejected?
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27 Jan 2010 08:40:02 < kribacr> About {bo}? I have no idea. I'm championing (from my recliner) other projects right now.
27 Jan 2010 08:40:02 < sam_tceipn> Not only is this inconsistent, it seems worse in practical usage as well.
27 Jan 2010 08:40:05 <@xalbo> No one has done so, but I can say with high probability it would be rejected.
27 Jan 2010 08:40:07 < kribacr> Sounds like a job for .... you!
27 Jan 2010 08:40:16 < Sonja> and the conclusion yesterday was that spranto is the lojban way to say Esperanto
27 Jan 2010 08:40:24 <@xalbo> Hell, *I* would probably reject it.  We don't make backwards-incompatible changes.
27 Jan 2010 08:40:34 < sam_tceipn> Except for xorlo?
27 Jan 2010 08:40:56 <@xalbo> xorlo is backwards compatible.
27 Jan 2010 08:41:21 <@xalbo> It just vastly expands what {lo} can mean.  it still can mean all the same things it used to, and {le} can mean what it used to.
27 Jan 2010 08:43:05 < sam_tceipn> Fair enough.
27 Jan 2010 08:43:09 < kribacr> Wasn't something linked in here about streamlining tags too?
27 Jan 2010 08:43:35 < sam_tceipn> As I was musing yesterday, though, it strikes me as ridiculous to favour backwards compatibility over basically anything else.
27 Jan 2010 08:43:38 < kribacr> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Internal+grammar+of+tags
27 Jan 2010 08:43:48 < kribacr> That's what I was thinking of.
27 Jan 2010 08:43:59 < sam_tceipn> I realize that Lojban has a couple of decades of history, but it is nevertheless the cast that the community and corpus are both tiny.
27 Jan 2010 08:44:03 < sam_tceipn> *case
27 Jan 2010 08:44:41 <@xalbo> People who have spent a lot of time learning the language and writing in it don't like the idea that suddenly that work is wasted.
27 Jan 2010 08:45:28 <@xalbo> If {.i BAI bo} hadn't really seen much or any usage, it could probably be argued.  But there's too much of it out there to fix now.
27 Jan 2010 08:46:13 < sam_tceipn> But how many people? Like, four? Ten? And by what definition of "too much out there"? It would have to be a pretty liberal one I think.
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27 Jan 2010 08:48:55 <@xalbo> I'm too lazy right now to do a corpus search to check how much usage that construct has seen.  As far as number of users, let's say it's almost everyone who currently knows the language.
27 Jan 2010 08:49:59 <@xalbo> Go ahead and join the byfy and propose it if you like.  I'm probably the second-most tinkering friendly member (after xorxes), so I could probably be convinced with relative ease, at least compared to others.
27 Jan 2010 08:51:02 <@xalbo> But I *would* want to see actual data, showing that it hasn't been used as much as I thought, as well as an alternative way to phrase what is now {.i broda .i ni'i bo brode} (in general), etc etc.
27 Jan 2010 08:52:03 < sam_tceipn> If one is to care about Lojban at all I would think it is because one expects it to grow in popularity. If it grows in popularity, then the importance of its future dwarfs the importance of its past and present, and sacrificing any part of the former for the latter is backwards.
27 Jan 2010 08:52:10 < sam_tceipn> Anyway, indeed, I will write that proposal.
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27 Jan 2010 08:52:26 < sam_tceipn> This weekend maybe, full-time job and etc.
27 Jan 2010 08:53:40 < sam_tceipn> (If while writing the proposal I decide I'm wrong, then so much the better.)
27 Jan 2010 08:55:07 < kribacr> I can see the case both ways. I'm certainly of the mind of not destroying past work - but I'm also of the mind of "what about the years to come?"
27 Jan 2010 08:55:47 <@xalbo> Just realize that there will be pushback.  Again, people have a lot invested in this language, and if your tone sounds at all like the dozens of people who drop in, learn how to say {coi rodo}, and then propose that the language be changed to fit their ideas...well, let's just say there are a lot of those.
27 Jan 2010 08:56:05 < kribacr> If by a lot you mean every single person ever, you're right.
27 Jan 2010 08:56:07 < kribacr> I did it too.
27 Jan 2010 08:57:02 <@xalbo> We *did* vote to change sumtcita ZAhO, so there is some hope.
27 Jan 2010 08:58:28 < kribacr> Really?
27 Jan 2010 08:58:30 < kribacr> How did it change?
27 Jan 2010 08:58:35 < kribacr> I know {xa'o} was added.
27 Jan 2010 08:59:46 <@Broca> Huh? When did that happen?
27 Jan 2010 09:01:27 <@xalbo> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Section:+Aspect
27 Jan 2010 09:01:31 <@xalbo> See Notes and Impact.
27 Jan 2010 09:01:41 <@xalbo> I thought we'd voted for that.  Now I don't see the poll anymore.
27 Jan 2010 09:03:46 <@Broca> “Experimental ZAhO are not included in this page. See xa'o.”
27 Jan 2010 09:04:34 <@Broca> Actually assigning an xV'V cmavo would be a desperate move, IMO.
27 Jan 2010 09:04:56 <@Broca> It means that we could no longer be sure that any xV'V cmavo is free.
27 Jan 2010 09:05:16 <@xalbo> No, not {xa'o}.  The issue was ZAhO as sumtcita
27 Jan 2010 09:05:49 <@Broca> Oh.
27 Jan 2010 09:06:01 <@Broca> I was responding to 17:58 < kribacr> I know {xa'o} was added.
27 Jan 2010 09:06:32 <@xalbo> does {broda ba'o ko'a} mean, as the CLL and ma'oste say, "broda in the aftermath of ko'a", or does it act like every other tense in the world and mean something like "with broda completed, ko'a" (or however to phrase that)
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27 Jan 2010 09:16:04  * xalbo de'a jundi
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27 Jan 2010 09:23:06 < rlpowell> Moo.
27 Jan 2010 09:23:58 < neptunepink> xudobAkni
27 Jan 2010 09:24:07 < rlpowell> go'i
27 Jan 2010 09:24:27 < neptunepink> coi doi bakni
27 Jan 2010 09:24:36 < neptunepink> mi citka lo bakni
27 Jan 2010 09:25:36 < rlpowell> .ui nai
27 Jan 2010 09:26:09 < neptunepink> mua'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'aru'e
27 Jan 2010 09:26:35 < rlpowell> moo #2
27 Jan 2010 09:27:08 < neptunepink> dobAknicUsku
27 Jan 2010 09:29:19 -!- vreji_dk [n=vreji_dk@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
27 Jan 2010 09:29:32 < rlpowell> moo #3
27 Jan 2010 09:29:33 -!- vreji_dk [n=vreji_dk@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lojban
27 Jan 2010 09:29:46 < rlpowell> moo #4
27 Jan 2010 09:29:53 < rlpowell> .u'u mi cipra
27 Jan 2010 09:30:08 < neptunepink> go'ima
27 Jan 2010 09:30:22 < rlpowell> la'oi vreji_dk 
27 Jan 2010 09:30:39 < neptunepink> coi vreji_dk
27 Jan 2010 09:30:46 < neptunepink> Are you a Citizen?
27 Jan 2010 09:31:19 <@Broca> i ku'i la vreji cu na ka'e se cipra
27 Jan 2010 09:31:28 <@Broca> i ri ka'e ba te cipra
27 Jan 2010 09:31:32 <@Broca> sa
27 Jan 2010 09:31:35 <@Broca> i ri ka'e ba'e te cipra