WikiDiscuss

Trimming would have been nice.

I happen to be working on the examples right now.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2004 at 04:31:04PM -0800, John E Clifford wrote:
>
> > ;du'o (BAI): According to... Tags a sumti
snip
> > se du'o, te du'o, ve du'o.
> > ** Keywords: According to, known by.
>
> Since {djuno}, like English "know," intails that
> what is known is true, the reading "according to"
> is misleading, since it has no such implication
> and often (with a certain tone of voice to be
> sure) implicates that the information is false or
> at best unknown. And, once it is established --
> as anybody knowing it would do — the knower is
> not important, the truth is established. I
> suppose that what is intended is something "is
> vouched for by" citing the presumed reliable
> source of the information.

Actually, I'm using it for exactly what I said:

..oi sai mi cliva du'o la patfu
Dad knew I left!

> > ;se du'o (BAI*): Knowing facts... Tags a
snip
> > ** Keywords: Knowing facts, given the fact
> > that.
>
> I'm dying to see example of usage; what sort of
> association can be introduced in this way?
> Evidence maybe?

ma'a klama lo zarci se du'o le du'u la tom cu zvati zy
"We go to the market, knowing that Tom is there.''

> > ;te du'o (BAI*): Knowing about... Tags a
> > ** Keywords: Knowing about.
>
> Ditto in spades.

mi ka'e sidju te du'o lo mikse saske
"I can help, knowing about medicine."

> > ;se zau (BAI*): Approving... Tags a sumti
snip
> > In other words, the tagged sumti indicates that
> > the event described by the bridi is associated
> > with approval of the referent of the tagged
> > sumti. See also: zanru, zau.
> > ** Keywords: Approving, with approval of.
>
> "the approval of the referent" is ambiguous in a
> dangerous way: it means "that the referent is
> approved," not "the referent approves" (i.e.,
> {zau}).

You are *quite* correct. I noticed this when doing examples.

How's this:

In other words, the tagged sumti indicates that the event
described by the bridi is associated with the someone's or
something's approval of that which is described or indicated by
the referent of the tagged sumti.

> > ;cu'u (BaI): As said by... Tags a sumti
snip
> > ** Keywords: As said by, said.
>
> This is closer to "according to" in English. cf
> Bertl Isaacs.

Sort of. cu'u indicates that the person actually *expressed*
somehting.

Anyways, I've made "known by" the default for "du'o".

> > la .apasionatas pe cu'u la .artr. rubnstain.
> > cu se nelci mi
> > ''"The Appassionata", played by Arthur
> > Rubenstein, is liked by me.''

This was, for the record, straight out of the CLL.

> {cusku} seems to deal with conceptual and
> propositional expressions, not performances per
> se.

Erm, no. cusku takes a se du'u, text, or lu'e. All of these are
actual expressions, not concepts. If it was conceptual, it would be
du'u, not se du'u.

> Which does raise the question, "if the tagged
> item occupies the nth place of the underlying
> predicate, what place does the sentence to which
> it is attached occupy?"

A newly created, un-numbered place with the semantics of the nth
place of the predicate underlying the BAI tag.

I should probably say that in my definitions.

> > ;se cu'u (BAI*): Expressing... Tags a
snip
> > ** Keywords: Expressing, saying.
> >
> > !! Examples of se cu'u Usage
>
> This "associated with" is getting murkier and
> murkier. Can it be spelled out for each item?

If I had some idea how to do it, I suppose. But most of these have
seen no usage whatsoever, and their *meaning* is murky.

> Is there a rule that covers all these specifica
> cases as deriving from the basic locution?

What?

> > se'o verba selsanga secu'u le du'u lo za'i
> > jmive cu selsenva po'o
> > ''I know culturally that children's songs
> > express that life is only a dream.''
>
> Sentence is first place when tagged is second.

What?

> Reasonable but... . Why is this an extra place on
> {selsanga} rather than directly expressed: {lo
> verba selsanga cu cusku le du'u le za'i jmive cu
> selsenvi}?

You'd have to ask the original author of the sentence; it's from
IRC.

-Robin