WikiDiscuss

Yes! This is exactly the kinds of questions that should be asked. And the
first place to look for answers should be CLL (it IS the baseline, after all).

Jorge wrote:

>We can group vowel pairs as follows:
>
>1- ai au ei oi
>Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene.
>
>2- ia ie ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu
>Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene word initially.
>Should they be permitted after a consonant?
>Should they be permitted after '?
>Should they be permitted in some but not all of cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

I don't like them after consonant or ' because of pronunciation issues
mentioned previously. However, CLL says only stand-alone and in names and
borrowings.

>3- aa ae ao ea ee eo eu oa oe oo ou
>Should they be permitted at all?
>Should they be permitted exclusively in cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

I dislike them all. CLL not particularly helpful.

>4- iy uy
>Permitted in cmene only. Reserved as a hyphen.

CLL: only in names. I agree.

>5- ay ey oy ya ye yi yo yu
>Should they be permitted at all even in cmene?

I prefer not. CLL seems to say not.

>6- yy
>Permitted in isolation, equivalent to a single y.
>
>I would like to hear as many opinions as possible on this.
>Should we have rules as general as possible for all types of words,
>or a different rule for each type?
>Should we tend to more restrictive or more permissive rules? Where
>is the right balance?
>
>Depending on what we do with groups 2 and 3 we can then see
>what to do with longer clusters. Obviously if we don't allow
>{ae}, it would make no sense to allow {aei} for example.
>
>Opinions?
>
>mu'o mi'e xorxes

Here, for the record, is the analysis I did last year on just what CLL says
(some inconsistencies noted). No, I had never posted it.

========
Chapter 2 (Quicktour - ignore as being simplified for quick understanding
of basics):
========
p12: 'Stress falls on the next to the last syllable of all words, unless
that vowel is "y", which is never stressed; in such words the third-to-last
syllable is stressed. If a word only has one syllable, then that syllable
is not stressed.'
----------
Chapter 3 (pronunciation):
p31: 'Note in particular that Lojban vowels ...; some people round "y"
as well.'
p31: 'The apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not treated
as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban morphology...'
p31: 'The apostrophe is included in Lojban only to enable a smooth
transition between vowels, while joining the vowels within a single word.'
----------
p31-32: 'A pause (or glottal stop) may appear between any two words, an in
certain cases - explained in detail in Chapter 4 - must occur. In
particular, a word beginning with a vowel is always preceded by a pause,
and a word ending in a consonant is always followed by a pause.'
----------
p32: 'The comma is used to indicate a syllable break within a word,
generally one that is not obvious to the reader. Such a comma is written
to separate syllables, but indicates that there must be no pause between
them, in contrast to the period. Between two vowels, a comma indicates
that some type of glide may be necessary to avoid a pause that would split
the two syllables into separate words. It is always legal to use the
apostrophe sound in pronouncing a comma.'
p32: 'Commas are never required: no two Lojban words differ solely
because of the presence or placement of a comma.' but p32 'always legal
to use the apostrophe sound in pronouncing a comma
----------
p33: 'Diphthongs always constitute a single syllable.'
p33: 'Consonants may occur at the beginning or end of a syllable, around
the vowel, and there may be several consonants in a cluster in either
position. Each separate vowel sound constitutes a distinct syllable;
consonant sounds do not affect the determination of syllables.'
p33: 'The six Lojban vowels are "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", and "y". The
first five vowels appear freely in all kinds of Lojban words. The vowel
"y" has a limited distribution: it appears only in Lojbanized names, in
the Lojban names of the letters of the alphabet, as a glue vowel in
compound words, and standing alone as a space-filler word...'
p33: 'The Lojban diphthongs are shown in the table below...' note:
descending 5 appear first, then ascending 10 regular, then %22iy%22 and %22uy%22
appear last.
----------
p34: 'The first four descending ... are freely used in most types of
Lojban words.'
p34: '... the ten following ones ascending, but not 'iy' nor 'uy' are
used only as stand-alone words and in Lojbanized names and borrowings.'
p34: '... the last two ("iy" and "uy") are used only in Lojbanized names.'
p34: 'The syllabic consonants of Lojban l, m, n, r... They normally
have only a limited distribution, appearing in Lojban names and borrowings,
although in principle any "l", "m", "n", or "r" may be pronounced
syllabically.' but see p40 on counting syllables
p34: 'Syllabic consonants are treated as consonants rather than vowels
from the standpoint of Lojban morphology.'
p34: 'Syllables with syllabic consonants and no vowel are never stressed
or counted when determining which syllables to stress ... .'
p34: 'The Lojban vowels also occur in pairs, where each vowel sound is
in a separate syllable.'
----------
p35: 'The Lojban vowel pairs in separate syllables are: ...'. note:
combinations with 'y' are included.
p35: 'Vowel pairs in separate syllables involving "y" appear only in
Lojbanized names. They could appear in cmavo (structure words), but only
".y'y." is so used.'
p35: 'When more than two vowels occur together ... pairs vowels from the
left into syllables ... In order to indicate a different grouping, the
comma must always be used ...'
----------
p36: 'In Lojban, doubled consonants are excluded altogether, and
clusters are limited to two or three members, except in Lojbanized names.'
p36: '... however, no consonant (including syllabic consonants) occurs
final in a word except in Lojbanized names.'
p36: 'Pairs of consonants can also appear freely, with the following
restrictions:
1) It is forbidden for both consonants to be the same ...
2) It is forbidden for one consonant to be voiced and the other unvoiced...
3) It is forbidden for both consonants to be drawn from the set "c", "j",
"s", "z".
4) The specific paird "cx", "kx", "xc", "xk", and "mz" are fobidden.
These rules apply to all kinds of words, even Lojbanized names.'
----------
p37: 'There are just 48 such may appear at the beginning permissible
initial consonant pairs ...'
p37: 'Consonant triples can occur medially in Lojban words. They are
subject to the following rules referred to also on p50:
1) The first two consonants must constitute a persmissible consanant pair;
2) The last two consonants must constitute a permissible initial consonant
pair; but 'bongnanba' example on page 39
3) The triples "ndj", "ndz", "ntc" and "nts" are forbidden.'
p37: 'Lojbanized names can begin or end with any permissible consonant
pair ..., and can have consonant triples in any location ... . ... names
can contain consonant clusters with more than three consonants, again
requiring that each pair withing the cluster is valid.'
----------
p39: 'A Lojban word has one syllable for each of its vowels, diphthongs,
and syllabic consonants (referred to simply as "vowels" for the purposes of
this section).'
----------
p40: 'Most Lojban words are stressed on the next-to-the-last ...
syllable. ... syllables whose vowel is "y" or which contain a syllabic
consonant are never counted.'
p40: 'Primary stress is required on the penultimate syllable of Lojan
content words...'.
p40: 'Lojbanized names may be stressed on any syllable...'
p40: 'Lojban structural words (called "cmavo") may be stressed on any
syllable or none at all. However, primary stress may not be used in a
syllable just preceding a brivla, unless a pause divides them...'
alternate orthography, my synopsis removed
========
Chapter 4 (morphology):
========
p49-50 notation conventions in intro to chapter, slightly paraphrased:

• V - any single Lojban vowel except "y"
• VV - either diphthong, one of ... ai, ei, oi, au; or two-syllable vowel

pair with apostrohphe ... one of ... note: none have %22y%22.

• C - single Lojban consonant not including apostrophe, one of ...
• Syllabic l, m, n, r always count as consonats for the purposes of this

chapter.

• CC - two adjacent consonants ... one of the 48 permissible initial

consonant pairs: list

• C/C - represents two adjacent consonants ... one of the permissible

consonant pairs ...

• C/CC - consonant triple. 'The first two consonants must constitute a

permissible consonant pair; the last two consonants must constitute a
permissible initial consonant pair. note: same as p37 explanation.
----------
p51: 'Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word structure
....:
V-form
CV-form
VV-form
CVV-form
In addition, there is the cmavo ".y." (remember that "y" is not a
V), which must have pauses before and after it.' note: %22.y'y.%22 not
mentioned here
P51: Words consisting of three or more vowels in a row, or a single
consonant followed by three or more vowels, are also of the cmavo form, but
are reserved for experimental use.
P51: "Experimental use" means that the language designers will not
assign any standard meaning or usage to these words..."
P51: The cmavo of VV-form include not only the diphthongs and vowel
pairs listed in Section 1, but also ... .ia, .ie, .ii, .io, .iu, .ua, .ue,
..ui., .uo, .uu
P51: In addition, cmavo can have the form "Cy"...
P51: If the final syllable of one word is stressed, and the first
syllable of the next word is stressed, you must insert a pause or glottal
stop between the two stressed syllables.
----------
4.3 brivla
----------
p52: Every brivla belongs to one of three major subtypes per page 53,
the following:
The three subtypes of brivla are:
1. gismu...
2. lujvo...
3. fu'ivla...
----------
p53: All brivla have the following properties:
1. always end in a vowel
2. always contain a consonant pair in the first five letters, where "y" and
apostrophe are not counted as letters for this purpose...
3. always are stressed on the next-to-the-last (penultimate) syllable; this
implies that they have two or more syllables.
----------
4.4 gismu
----------
P54: ... all gismu are of the forms CVC/CV or CCVCV. They must meet the
rules for all brivla given in Section 3; furthermore they:
1. always have 5 letters
2. always start with a consonant and end with a single vowel;
3. always contain exactly on consonant pair, which is a permissible initial
pair (CC) if it's at the beginning of the gismu, but otherwise only has to
be a permissible peir (C/C);
4. are always stressed on the first syllable (since that is penultimate).
P54: no gismu contains "'"
----------
4.5 lujvo
----------
p56: When assembling rafsi together into lujvo, the rules for valid
brivla must be followed.

4.6 rafsi
----------
p57: Each gismu always has at least two rafsi forms; one is the gismu
itself (used only at the end of a lujvo), and one is the gismu without its
final vowel (used only at the beginning or middle of a lujvo). ... CVC/CV
or CCVCV ... and CVC/C or CCVC ...
p57: All short rafsi have one of the forms CVC, CCV, or CVV.
----------
P58: ... CVC-form rafsi ... cannot be used at the end of a lujvo
P58: CCV-form rafsi is possible only if the two consonants form a
permissible initial consonant pair.
----------
P59: The "y"-hyphen is used after a CVC-form rafsi when joining it with
the following rafsi could result in an impermissible consonant pair, or
when the resulting lujvo could fall apart into two or more words (either
cmavo or gismu lujvo not mentioned).
----------
P60: The "y"-hyphen is also used to attach a 4-letter rafsi...
P60: The "r"-hyphen and its close relative, the "n"-hyphen, are use in
lujvo only after CVV-form rafsi.
P60: A r or n hyphen is always required in a two-part lujvo of the for
CVV-CVV ...
P60: An "r"-hyphen or "n"-hyphen is also required after the CVV-form
rafsi of any lujvo of the form CVV-CVC/CV or CVV-CCVCV.
P60: In any lujvo with more than two parts, a CVV-form rafsi in the
initial position must always be followed by a hyphen.
P60: an "n"-hyphen is only used in place of an "r"-hyphen when the
folling rafsi begins with "r".
----------
P61: Note that rafsi may not be used in "zei" phrases, because they are
not words...rafsi appear only as parts of lujvo but see below.
----------
4.7 fu'ivla
----------
p61: or type 3 fu'ivla A rafsi is then usually attached to the
beginning of the Lojbanized form ...
----------
p62: All fu'ivla:
1. must contain a consonant cluster in the first five letters ...; if ...
at the beginning, it must either be a permissible initial consonant pair,
or a longer cluster such that each pair of adjacent consonants in the
cluster is a permissible initial consonant pair.
2. must end in one or more vowels
3. must not be gismu or lujvo, or any combination of cmavo, gismu, and
lujvo note: cmavo+fu'ivla not mentioned; furthermore, a fu'ivla with a CV
cmavo joined to the front of it must not have the form of a lujvo.
4. cannot contain "y", although they may contain syllabic pronunciations of
Lojban consonants
5. like other brivla, are stressed on the penultimate syllable.
----------
P62: ... consonant triple or larger clusters that are not at the
beginning of a fu'ivla can be quite flexible, as long as all consonant
pairs are permissible no specific mention of ndj, etc
----------
4.8 cmene
----------
p65: Names ... always end in a consonant, and are followed by a pause.
P65: Names are not permitted to have the sequences "la", "lai", or "doi"
no mention of %22la'i%22, but see summary in 3.9 and repeat on p138! embedded
in them, unless the sequence is immediately preceded by a consonant.
P65: ... the fact that all Lojban cmene embedded in a speech stream will
be preceded by one of these words or by a pause.
----------
P66: Lojban cmene ... characteristics:
1. They must end in one or more consonants. There are no rules about how
many consonants may appear in a cluster in cmene, provided that each
consonant pair ... is a permissible pair no mention of ndj, etc
2. They may contain the letter y .... They are the only kind of Lojban word
that may contain the two diphthongs "iy" and "uy".
3. They are always followed in speech by a pause after the final consonant
4. They may be stressed on any syllable capitalize if not penultimate
----------
4.9 pauses
----------
p68-69: Summarized in one place, here are the rules for inserting pauses
between Lojban words:
1. Any two words may have a pause between them; it is always illegal to
pause in the middle of a word ...
2. Every word ending in a consonant must be followed by a pause.
3. Every word beginning with a vowel must be preceded by a pause.
4. Every cmene must be preceded by a pause, unless the immediately
preceding word is one the cmavo "la", "lai", "la'i" but see p65 & p138,
or "doi".
5. If the last syllable of a word bears the stress, and a brivla follows,
the two must be separated by a pause ...
6. A cmavo of the form "Cy" must be followed by a pause unless another
"Cy"-form cmavo follows.
7. When non-Lojban text is embedded in Lojban, it must be preceded and
followed by pauses.
no mention of .y. and .y'y.; must they be followed by pause or not? And,
are they %22vowels%22 for these purposes such that they are preceded by pause?
----------
4.11 lujvo-making algorithm, salient points only, rephrased - p70
----------

• It is illegal to add a hyphen at a place that is not required by this

algorithm.

• r or n hyphen after initial CVV in more-than-2-piece lujvo; n if and only

if letter after is r

• y between impermissible medials
• y after any 4-letter form
• y after 1st rafsi if fails tosmabru:

CVC...CVC + CVCCV or CVC...CVC + y (because of invalid medial) + ... where
all CC joints up to last mentioned piece are valid initials.
----------
4.16 rafsi fu'ivla: a proposal
----------
p80: experimental status: it is not yet a standard part of Lojban, since
all its implications have not been tested in open debate ...
p80: All ... CCVVCV would be reserved for cultural brivla
p80 No two fu'ivla of this form would be allowed to coexist if they
differed only in the final vowel; this rule was applied to gismu but does
not apply to other fu'ivla or to lujvo
p80 ... fully experimental ... allow rafsi to be formed ... by removing
the final vowel and treating the result as a 4-letter rafsi.
p80: There would be no short rafsi or 5-letter rafsi assigned to any
fu'ivla, so no fu'ivla could appear as the last element of a lujvo.
p80: ... might become standard for all type 4 fu'ivla, including those
made for plants, animals, foodstuffs, and other things.
========
Chapter 6 - sumti
========
6.12 - lojban names
----------
p138: There are certain limitations on the form of name-words in
Lojban. In particular, they cannot contain the letter-sequences (or
sound-sequences) "la", "lai", or "doi" no la'i unless a consonant
immediately precedes within the name. Reciprocally, every name not
preceded by "la", "lai", "la'i" or "doi" must be preceded by a pause instead.
========
Chapter 17 - letterals
========
17.2
----------
p414: ... the vowel and "'" lerfu words are two syllables and must be
preceded by paud (since they all begin with a vowel).
p414: Note that the lerfu words ending in "y" were written ... with
pauses after them. It is not strictly necessary to pause after such lerfu
words, but failure to do so can in some cases lead to ambiguities. ... A
safe guideline is to pause after any cmavo ending in "y" unless the next
word is also a cmavo ending in "y". The safest and easiest guideline is to
pause after all of them.
========
Chapter 19 - Putting it all together
========
19.10 more on quotations
----------
p477: on zoi It's syntax is "zoi X. text .X", where X is a Lojban word
(called the delimiting word) which is separated from the quoted text by
pauses, and which is not found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream.
p477: on zoi Within written text, the Lojban written word used as a
delimiting word may not appear, whereas within spoken text, the sound ...
may not be uttered.
----------
p478: on zoi/lo'u A minor note on interaction between "lo'u ...le'u"
and "zoi": The text between "lo'u" and "le'u" should consist of Lojban
words only. In fact, non-Lojban material in the form of a "zoi" quotation
may also appear. However, if the word "le'u" is used either as the
delimiting word for the "zoi" quotation, or within the quotation itself,
the outer "lo'u" quotation will be prematurely terminated. Therefore,
"le'u" should be avoided as the delimiting word in and "zoi" quotation.
----------
p479: The cmavo "la'o" also belongs to selma'o ZOI ...
----------
19.14 Hesitation "y"
----------
p484: ... requirement to pause before and after. ... the "y" sound can
be dragged out for as long as necessary. Furthermore, the sound can be
repeated, provided the required pauses are respected.
----------
19.16 - cmavo interactions
----------
p485:

• "zo" quotes the following word zo zoi?
• "si" erases the preceding word unless it is a "zo" zoi si - > non-zoi?
• "sa" erases the preceding word and other words unless ... zo
• "su" ... erases more words.
• "lo'u" quotes all ... up to a "le'u" (but not a "zo le'u") zoi lo'u?
• "le'u" is ungrammatical except at the end of a "lo'u" quotation zoi
  le'u = end of lo'u, if there, per above
  • ZOI cmavo use the following word as a delimiting word, no matter what it

  is, but using "le'u" may creat difficulties

  • "zei" combines ... into lujvo, but does not affect "zo", "si", "sa", "su"

  "lo'u", ZOI cmavo, "fa'o", and "zei" zoi zei, and zei zoi

  • "BAhE cmavo mark the following word, unless it is "si", "sa", or "su" or

  unless it is preceded by "zo". Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in
  succession. zoi ba'e?

  • "bu" makes the preceding word into a lerfu word, except for "zo", "si",

  "sa", "su", "lo'u", ZOI cmavo, "fa'o", zei", BAhE cmavo, and
  "bu". Multiple "bu" cmavo may be used in succession.

  • UI and CAI cmavo mark the previous word, except for "zo", "si", "sa",

  "su", "lo'u", ZOI cmavo, "fa'o", zei", BAhe cmavo, and "bu". Multiple UI
  .... A following "nai" is made part of the UI.

  • ".y.", "da'o", "fu'e", and "fu'o" are the same as UI, but do not absorb a

  following "nai".
  ========
  Chapter 21 - formal grammar
  ========
  21.1 - lexing
  ----------
  p511: From phonemes, stress, and pause, it is possible to resolve Lojban
  unambiguously into a stream of words. ... However, step 2 allows the
  filtering of a phonetically transcribed text stream, to recognize such
  portions of non-Lojban text where properly delimited, ...
  21.2 - filtering
  ----------
  p511-512: From start to end, ... using the given order of precedence
  in case of conflict:
  1. If the Lojban word "zoi" (selma'o ZOI) is identified, take the following
  Lojban word (which should be end delimited with a pause ...) as an opening
  delimiter. Treat all text following ... until that delimiter recurs after
  a pause ...
  2. ... "zo" ..., treat the following Lojban word as a token ... instead of
  lexing ...
  3. ... "lo'u" ..., search for the closing delimiter "le'u", ignoring any
  such closing delimiters absorbed by the previous two steps ... so lo'u
  zoi le'u?
  4. Categorize all remaining words into their Lojban selma'o ...
  5. ... "si" ..., erase it and the previous word (or token if ... condensed
  into a single token).
  6. ... "sa" ..., erase it and all preceding text as far back as necessary
  to make what follows attach to what precedes. ...
  7. ... "su" ..., erase it and all preceding text back to and including the
  first preceding token word ... of ... NIhO, LU, TUhE, and TO. However, if
  speaker identification is available, a SU shall only erase to the beginning
  of a speaker's discourse, unless ...
  ----------
  21.3 termination
  ----------
  p512: If the text contains a FAhO, ... ignore everything that follows it.
  ----------
  21.4 grammar-free tokens
  ----------
  p512: In a new pass, ...
  1. ... any - (ZEI - any) ... into a single token of selma'o BRIVLA
  2. ... BAhE tokens into the gollowing token.
  3. ... BU tokens into the previous token ... as selma'o BY
  4. ... NAI ... immediately following UI or CAI, ... into the previous token
  5. ... DAhO, FUhO, FUhE, UI, Y and CAI into the previous token.

  
  mi'e noras noras@cox.net
  Nora LeChevalier