WikiDiscuss

On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 10:06:58AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:40:06 -0800, Robin Lee Powell
> <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 05:06:16PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > > > ma'a klama lo zarci se du'o le du'u la tom cu zvati zy "We
> > > > go to the market, knowing that Tom is there.''
> > >
> > > What bothers me about this example is that there is no reason
> > > in the lojban to assume that the knower(s) and the goers are
> > > the same people.
> >
> > I don't see that the translation particularily implies that
> > either,
>
> "X does Y, knowing Z" does not imply that the knower is the same
> as the doer?

Perhaps, but only mildly.

> > but would "given the fact that" make you feel better?
>
> That works for {fi'o fatci}, but {du'o} brings in a knower.

{du'o} does, but {se du'o} does not; it adds a place with a thing
known, that's all.

> > > The standard use of BAIs requires the BAI-associated selbri to
> > > have a free event place for the main event.
> >
> > That may be true for a few, but it sure as hell isn't true in
> > general.
>
> OK, let me rephrase that:
>
> BAIs that have an event or proposition place are relatively easy
> to interpret (as long as the place in question is not taken by the
> tagged sumti). BAIs that lack any such free place are not easy to
> interpret.

No, I don't agree with that either. BAI tags add a single place
with a meaning derived from a gismu. Whether that additional place
is easy to understand depends on the sentence and the context, not
on the underlying gismu.

> > There are many BAI for which the underlying brivla have no
> > event places. "tai" comes to mind immediately.
>
> {tai} comes from {tarmysimsa}. Why does it not come directly from
> {tarmi}? Because the intention was that it be used for "like", or
> "as". If we assume that the underlying predicate of {tai} is "x1
> is like/as x2", then there is no problem with both x1 and x2 being
> events.

Sorry, I forgot it didn't come from tarmi.

ka'a, then.

-Robin