WikiDiscuss

WikiDiscuss


methods of resolving mismatches between place structures and number of overt sumti

On Apr 5, 2005 4:51 PM, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I think that this amounts to saying that there
> has almost never been a fluent speaker, since I
> think this happens all the time.

Why "almost"? :-)

There are certainly people with much knowledge of the language,
who can maintain a conversation and understand each other, so
if that's the measure of fluency there are some. But if we mean
people who speak Lojban at a similar level to their native language,
I'm quite sure there are none. A speaker at this level will practically
never hesitate about the place structures of words, just like we
don't hesitate about using the right verbs transitively or intransitively
in our natlangs.

Alternatively,
> it amounts to saying that most places after the
> second are not real.

I don't know about most, but I would bet that a good many
will disappear if we ever reach the stage of having truly fluent
speakers.

In that case, bpfk has a
> serious problem in revising the whole gismu list
> (at least). I suppose they are up to it, since
> they have not stumbled in mucking about with
> various cmavo subsets.

Well, I'm not so sure. Some people feel that the gi'uste should
not be touched, warts and all.

> > le selfamti cu jbena fi li 2005;04;04 ca le
> > prulamdei
> > le selfamti cu jbena fi li 2005;04;04 ca le
> > cabdei
> > le selfamti cu jbena fi li 2005;04;04 ca le
> > bavlamdei
> > le selfamti cu jbena fi li 2005;04;04 ze'e
> > ku
>
> So the knowledgable person would say today
> (050405) {le sefamti cu jbena fi le prulamdei}

Right. But he can't use {jbena} to say that the birth lasted
for two hours, for example.

> It is probably
> not about the event at all (which needs another
> gismu perhaps — or, if we use jbena for this,
> then we need a lujvo to get those usual places
> back in).

Right, but it is always easier to add places than to
remove them. {jbedetri} for "birth-date" for example,
of {jbena de'i ...}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes