
There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Preliminary test message
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      2. Yes, "onelist" is real; sorry for the apparent spam
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 14:48:27 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Preliminary test message

Test message.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:02:19 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Yes, "onelist" is real; sorry for the apparent spam

I didn't know when I sent out the onelist announcement that
it would appear to come from "onelist team" rather than from
me, John Cowan (author of _The Complete Lojban List_, and all that).
Being the list owner, I didn't get a copy myself, and I didn't
think to put my own .signature file on it.

Sorry about that.

I've talked to Bob on the phone and straightened out these points:

> John Cowan and I are the Lojban List owners, and John would not have set
> this up without telling me ahead of time, which he did not.

I told Bob that I was going to do this several weeks ago, but he
misunderstood or misremembered.  He then pinged me because I hadn't
done anything, and I decided today that this day was as good as
any other.

> I do not know who "lojban-owner@xxxxxxx.xxxx will reach.

Me, at present; shortly, both me and Bob.

> We will strongly prefer a non commerical, non-advertising list site when we
> choose.

My belief (and Bob now accedes to this) is that such lists are hard
to come by at present.  The advertising done by OneList consists
of ads for OneList, which I consider benign, and includes a
how-to-unsubscribe brief message, which is very useful.

> Maybe I have said something about this to people without remembering it.

Indeed, but only to me, privately by phone.  Ah well....

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Sufi story (as promised)
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Feel free to start using lojban@xxxxxxx.xxx
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:14:51 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Sufi story (as promised)

pruxrsufi ctulisri

puzuvu pinfu .iriagi le canko pe le pifzdani cu jakcai gi le pinfu
goi koa visku fuinai .i le xasli dii moizoa zdabartu cadzu .i le
koa soiroi visku le stedu ceo le betfu ceo le rebla .ijebabo koa
lausku lu .ua mi jimpe .i le xasli cu rinka le stedu liu

pruxrsufi - leavla: Sufi
ctulisri - teaching story, proverb
pifzdani - prison
jakcai - extremely narrow (from Nick's list)
zdabartu - outside, outdoors (ditto)
lausku - shout, say loudly (ditto)




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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:11:55 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Feel free to start using lojban@xxxxxxx.xxx

Please start posting new threads to lojban@xxxxxxx.xxx.
It is OK to keep sending replies to the old list for a while.

If you have a local alias for Lojban List, please change it now.

Please do *not* crosspost to lojban@xxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxx.xxx and
lojban@xxxxxxx.xxxx as everyone is subscribed to both.

Lojbab, your alias file is updated.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. le'avla
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: talsa
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. le'avla/fu'ivla
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      4. Translation help required ...
           From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      5. Re: Sufi story (as promised)
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: talsa
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: talsa
           From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      8. Re: Sufi story (as promised)
           From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      9. Re: Translation help required ...
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     10. Re: talsa
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     11. Re: Sufi story (as promised)
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     12. Re: jbopemci
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     13. Re: talsa
           From: "Pablo Stafforini" <cancrians@xxxxx.xxx>
     14. Re: Sufi story (as promised)
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 15:31:27 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: le'avla

Is there any way to make le'avla other than the algorithm given in
the WWW Archive?  I wouldn't feel comfortable advertising Lojban to
my Turkish friends if the name of their language would come out as
something like "bangrturku", a word they would have great difficulty
in pronouncing in the first place!

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:44:03 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: talsa

>coi rodo
>mi fanva le'i cizra smuni jufra .i le pa jufra cu dukse nandu mi .i mi
talsa
>rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u .i le
>nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu
>smuni .i ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku .i ganai je'u gi ko
>cusku le sidbo ta'i le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei
>co'o be'i la djan. maynat.

coi djan
i le do velcki cu stidi lo ka'e danfu i mu'a lu xoda xadni do li'u cumki
ija lu xoda xadni le pa sevzi be do li'u i ta'o pe'i no remna bangu
cu jitri'u le nu sidbo cusku
co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:14:28 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le'avla/fu'ivla

>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
>Is there any way to make le'avla other than the algorithm given in
>the WWW Archive?  I wouldn't feel comfortable advertising Lojban to
>my Turkish friends if the name of their language would come out as
>something like "bangrturku", a word they would have great difficulty
>in pronouncing in the first place!

Certainly.  The metod given is one that "always works" more or less,
gives a word highly marked as a borrowing (which I at least think is good at
this stage), and doesn't require a lot of care or sophistication on the
part of the word coiner.  In short it is good for nonce, or type 2 fu'ivla.

On the other hand, certain words like culture words for which we KNOW that we
want more or less permanent fu'ivla (they are not suitable for lujvo
and will see enough usage in the long term that they definitely belong
enshrined as "words") can be put in the rest of "fu'ivla space", which
broadly speaking includes anything that is not potentially a gismu, lujvo,
cmavo, cmene, and cannot break down into any of those in any possible speech
stream.

The trouble with such a negative definition is that there are no algorithmic
ways yet established for determining whether a word fits in that space.  It
takes experience with the morphology and even then is still subject to error.

In the case of culture words like Turkish, we have specifically identified a
potential solution: rafsi fu'ivla, per section 16 of chapter 4 of the book
(p 80-81).  The space reserved for such fu'ivla appears to definitely
always give a valid fu'ivla, so pretty much anyone can borrow a word into
that space.  We suggest that only words that are useful in compounding
in the same way that gismu presumably are, be so borrowed.  The experimental
part of the proposal, which is not an official part of the language, is the
"rafsi" part of the proposal.  That is harder to test for impact on the
morphology algoirthm (though we are sure that it will work based on
inspection).  Usage and continued testing will determine that part
stays in the language.

My suggestion then would be to borrow from Turkish in a form that would
not offend Turks, a word for their culture in the form described in that
book section, and then make an unofficial lujvo  ....ybau, if that will
be more pleasing.

If you want to make a short (non-prefixed) type 4 fu'ivla for the turkish
language (and make sure it is distinct from turkic languages BTW), then you
have to play around to find out what will work.  I cannot give you much
advice except to note that valid brivla forms having a consonant cluster
and ending with CVCV seem to usually work.  But there is so sure answer.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:45:50 +0000
   From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Translation help required ...

coi rodo

Forgive me for posting in English.  Before trying to post in
lojban I've been trying to understand some of the messsages
posted by others to learn from their mistakes, and thereby
avoid having people send the same corrections over and over
again.

In attempting to understand the recent message from Minots,
however, I've been having more trouble than with most.  My
suspicion is that he is trying to express some complex ideas
and may be getting some of the grammar wrong in the attempt,
although I can hardly criticise when I don't even try! (yet!)

I've been using

  2;5;33moi ke lojbo genturfa'i

to generate a parse, and then looking things up in somewhat
old versions of gismu and cmavo lists.

Here's the original:

============================================================
> Date sent:      Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:15:12 -0600
> From:           Minots <minots@xxxxxxx.xxx>
> Subject:        talsa
> Originally to:  jbomriste <lojban@xxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> coi rodo
>
>    mi fanva le'i cizra smuni jufra
> .i le pa jufra cu dukse nandu mi
> .i mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e
>    tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u
> .i le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki
>    na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni
> .i ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku
> .i ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i
>    le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei
>
> co'o be'i la djan. maynat.
============================================================


I would welcome criticisms of my attempts at analysing that
post.  I'll take it one "sentence" at a time.

==========
coi rodo - Greetings all.

==========
Sentence:  mi  fanva  le'i   cizra smuni  jufra
Parse   : (mi {fanva <le'i [(cizra smuni) jufra]>})
  mi         me
    fanva      translate
      le'i       the set described
          cizra      strange
          smuni      meaning
        jufra      sentence

Translation:
  I am translating some odd sentences.

==========
Sentence:   le  pa jufra   cu   dukse nandu  mi
Parse   : ({le <pa jufra>} cu {<dukse nandu> mi})
    le         the described
      pa         1
      jufra      sentence
  cu         selbri separator
      dukse      excess
      nandu      difficult
    mi         me

I don't understand what the "1" is doing here.  Should
it be "pamoi = first"?   How does this break down?

Does this translate as

  "The first sentence is excessively difficult for me"
?

==========
Sentence: mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e
            tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u

I've excised the  "tu'e ... tu'u"  text scope here to
get the following parse:

Parse   :
(mi {talsa <[ro do] [le (nu {do <[ka'e fanva] zo'e>})]>})
  mi         me
    talsa      challenge
        ro         each
        do         you
        le         the described
          nu         event abstract
            do         you
                ka'e       innately capable of
                fanva      translate
              zo'e       unspecif it

I'm guessing that this comes out as

  " I challenge you all in property of the event that
    you are inately capabale of translating it. "

I'm not sure what the zo'e is doing there.  Shouldn't it
simply be the text, since that's the x2 of fanva?

==========
Sentence: le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki
            na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni

I can't get the parser to accept this at all.  Here is a
simple gloss, with lots of associated questions.

  le nu
      zo do         ; "do" as a word
    cu
      pa sezvi      ; What does the "pa" mean here?  "Me alone"?
      gi'e          ; and
          le sezvi  ; "the self" ??
        cu
          cumki     ; maybe
      na'e          ; scalar contrary - what is the scale or set?
        pa          ; What does this "1" mean?
        xadni ja tarmi ; body or shape
  kei
cu
  smuni             ; ... is the meaning.

Also, there seems to be a mis-spelling in the original, since
my lists have ...

  {sevzi}{sez}{se'i} - self

I long for the day when I make no spelling mistakes.

==========
Sentence: ti'e la lojban na cu jitri'u le sidbo cusku

I think the  "na cu"  should be  "cu na", giving

Parse   : (ti'e {<la lojban> cu <[na jitri'u] [le (sidbo cusku)]>})

  ti'e       I hear
      la         that named
      lojban     ?
    cu         selbri separator
        na         bridi negator
        jitri'u    +limit+restrain
        le         the described
          sidbo      idea
          cusku      express

Translation: I've heard that lojban puts no limits on
             the expression of ideas.

( Personal note: I don't believe that this was the original
                 intention. I believe the original intention
                 was to create something *different* about
                 the language, and to make it as expressive.
  )

==========
Sentence: ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i
            le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei

The parser refuses this, although I can get it to work if
I leave out the initial logical connectives ...

Parse : (ko {cusku <[le sidbo]
          [ta'i (le {nu <[le prenu] cu [cusku (le sidbo)]>
                     kei})]>}
        )
  ko         imperative
    cusku      express
        le         the described
        sidbo      idea
        ta'i       by method
          le         the described
            nu         event abstract
                le         the described
                prenu      person
              cu         selbri separator
                cusku      express
                  le         the described
                  sidbo      idea
            kei        end abstraction

The initial part glosses as ...

    ganai      fore only if
    je'u       truth
    gi         connective medial

So, I get completely lost in this one and would appreciate some
help.  The best I get is ...
  " This is only true if
      You(imperative) express the idea by method A,
      where method A is the event of a person
                               expressing the idea. "

???  What does that mean?

==========

co'o la kolin.



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Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:06:21 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Sufi story (as promised)



>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
>pruxrsufi ctulisri
>
>puzuvu pinfu .iriagi le canko pe le pifzdani cu jakcai gi le pinfu
>goi koa visku fuinai .i le xasli dii moizoa zdabartu cadzu .i le
>koa soiroi visku le stedu ceo le betfu ceo le rebla .ijebabo koa
>lausku lu .ua mi jimpe .i le xasli cu rinka le stedu liu


i mi na jimpe le logji pe le pinfu i pau py facki le du'u le xasli
le stedu cu rinka gi'i se rinka
co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 6
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:13:02 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: talsa

>>i ta'o pe'i no remna bangu
>> cu jitri'u le nu sidbo cusku
>
>u'iro'e xu la xorxes. na krici le ti'icki pe la sapir .e la worf.


i ia mi na krici




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Message: 7
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:45:00 +0000
   From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: talsa

coi rodo


And following on from my previous post, here is my hack
at translating xorxes' reply ...

The original main body of text, reformatted:

  i le do velcki cu stidi lo ka'e danfu
  i mu'a lu xoda xadni do li'u cumki
  ija lu xoda xadni le pa sevzi be do li'u
  i ta'o pe'i no remna bangu cu jitri'u le nu sidbo cusku

Again, analysing one sentence at a time ...

============================================================
({le <do velcki>} cu {stidi <lo [ka'e danfu]>})
    le         the described
      do         you
      velcki     +4th conversion+explain
  cu         selbri separator
    stidi      suggest
      lo         the really is
        ka'e       innately capable of
        danfu      answer

Translation: Your explanation suggests there is an answer.

I don't understand the use of "ka'e" in this position.
I'm also a little confused by  "le do velcki".  Looking up
my gismu,

"cki = ciksi" : explain
                x1 (person)
                  explains x2 (event/state/property)
                  to x3
                  with explanation x4

so "velcki"   : explanation
                x1 is an explanation
                  of x2 (event/state/property)
                  to x3
                  by x4 (person)

Now, what does  "le do velcki"  mean?  Clearly the "do" is intended
as a possessive, but  "do velcki"  means  "you are an explanation",
so why should  "le do velcki"  mean  "your explanation", which is,
semantically, clearly the intent?

============================================================
(mu'a {<lu [(xo da) (xadni do)] li'u> cumki})
  mu'a       for example
      lu         quote
          xo         number ?
          da         something 1
          xadni      body
          do         you
      li'u       end quote
    cumki      possible

I haven't got as far as understanding "da" at all.  The entry
from my cmavo list is ...

da : something 1
  logically quantified existential pro-sumti:
  there exists something 1 (usually restricted)

Does  "xoda xadni"  mean  "xo xadni"  with the "da" taking
the value of the answer?  Does that make sense?  "xadni"
only takes two sumti, so which is the x1?

xadni/xad : body : x1 is a/the body/corpus/corpse of x2

============================================================
ja lu xoda xadni le pa sezvi be do li'u
(ja {lu <[xo da] [xadni (le {pa <sezvi [be do]>})]> li'u})
  ja         tanru or
    lu         quote
        xo         number ?
        da         something 1
        xadni      body
          le         the described
            pa         1
              sezvi      self
                be         link sumti
                do         you
    li'u       end quote


Again, I'm confused by the "pa".  Here, the x2 of  "xadni"
is  "(le {pa <sezvi [be do]>})", and I'm lost in trying to
translate  "pa sezvi be do"

============================================================
({ta'o pe'i} {<no [remna bangu]> cu <jitri'u [le (nu {sidbo
cusku})]>})
    ta'o       by the way
    pe'i       I opine
      no         0
        remna      human
        bangu      language
    cu         selbri separator
      jitri'u    +limit+restrain
        le         the described
          nu         event abstract
            sidbo      idea
            cusku      express

Translation:  As an aside, in my opinion no human language
              limits the expression of ideas.

Personally, I disagree.  I believe that *all* languages
limit the expression of ideas, but are generally flexible
enough to permit a back-and-forth to communicate meaning.



co'o mi'e kolin.


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Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:36:24 +0000
   From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: Sufi story (as promised)

jorge wrote:

>> pruxrsufi ctulisri
>>
>> puzuvu pinfu .iria'gi le canko pe le pifzdani cu jakcai gi le pinfu
>> goi ko'a visku fu'inai .i le xasli di'i mo'izo'a zdabartu cadzu .i le
>> ko'a so'iroi visku le stedu ce'o le betfu ce'o le rebla .ijebabo ko'a
>> lausku lu .ua mi jimpe .i le xasli cu rinka le stedu li'u


> i mi na jimpe le logji pe le pinfu i pau py facki le du'u le xasli
> le stedu cu rinka gi'i se rinka


OK, here I go again ...


-> pruxrsufi ctulisri

I'm lost on "pruxrsufi".  How does it break up?
-> ctulisri   +teach+story
I assume this is a parable.  I haven't paid close attention
recently, but that agrees with my vague memories of what I've
seen not so long ago.


-> puzuvu pinfu
Long ago, and far away ... prisoner.
Pardon?


-> ria'gi le canko pe le pifzdani cu jakcai
   gi le pinfu goi ko'a visku fu'inai

This gets rejected by the parser, and I can't really make
a start on how to break it down.  I am reminded of the fact
that I am still a beginner.  "gi"  seems to confuse me a lot,
as does any syntax or grammatical error ...


-> le xasli di'i mo'izo'a zdabartu cadzu
    le         the described
    xasli      donkey
      di'i       regularly
        mo'i       space motion
        zo'a       tangential to
      zdabartu   +nest+out
      cadzu      walk

The donkey regularly walks around its stable.
??


-> le ko'a so'iroi visku le stedu ce'o le betfu ce'o le rebla

I couldn't get the parser to accept that, it was confused
by the "ce'o".  Removing them gives ...

    le         the described
      ko'a       it-1
          so'i       many
          roi        quantified tense
        visku      +?
    le         the described
    stedu      head

I guess you mean viska ... but I can't see where your brivla
is in this sentence ...



-> jebabo ko'a lausku lu .ua mi jimpe
I can't make sense of this at all ...


-> le xasli cu rinka le stedu li'u
The donkey causes the head what?



la kolin.


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Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:08:21 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Translation help required ...

la kolin cusku di'e
> Sentence:   le  pa jufra   cu   dukse nandu  mi
>
> I don't understand what the "1" is doing here.  Should
> it be "pamoi = first"?   How does this break down?

{le pa jufra} means "the sentence", {pa} indicates you're talking
of only one sentence. Without the 1 it would mean "each of the
sentences that I'm talking about". In general it is not necessary
to indicate the number.

> Sentence: mi talsa rodo le nu do ka'e fanva zo'e
>            tu'e zoi How many of you is there? tu'u
>
> I'm not sure what the zo'e is doing there.  Shouldn't it
> simply be the text, since that's the x2 of fanva?

You're right about zo'e, it shouldn't be there.
The text scope markers are wrong also. To quote non-Lojban text you
have to use {zoi <any-Lojban-word> ......... <the-same-Lojban-word>}.
When the text is English, the more common word used is {gy}, so the
sentence would be:

   mi talsa rodo le nu fanva zoi gy How many of you is there? gy

> Sentence: le nu zo do cu pa sezvi gi'e le sezvi cu cumki
>            na'e pa xadni ja tarmi kei cu smuni
>
> I can't get the parser to accept this at all.

I think he meant something like:

        le nu la'e zo do cu pamei sevzi kei e le nu le sevzi cu
          cumki za'upamei se xadni ja se tarmi cu smuni
    "That 'you' refers to a single self and that the self might
        possibly have more than one body or shape is the meaning."

> Sentence: ganai je'u gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i
>            le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei
>
>The parser refuses this, although I can get it to work if
>I leave out the initial logical connectives ...

The connectives are important. He probably meant:

        ganai go'i gi ko cusku le sidbo ta'i
            le nu le prenu cu cusku le sidbo kei
       "If that's true then express the idea in the way that the
         person expresses the idea."

I'm not sure what person he refers to.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 10
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:28:11 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: talsa

la kolin cusku di'e

> ({le <do velcki>} cu {stidi <lo [ka'e danfu]>})
>
>Translation: Your explanation suggests there is an answer.
>
> I don't understand the use of "ka'e" in this position.

{lo ka'e danfu} is "something that can be an answer". I did not
want to assert that it was necessarily the answer he was after.

> I'm also a little confused by  "le do velcki".
> Now, what does  "le do velcki"  mean?  Clearly the "do" is intended
> as a possessive, but  "do velcki"  means  "you are an explanation",
> so why should  "le do velcki"  mean  "your explanation", which is,
> semantically, clearly the intent?

{le do velcki} has the same meaning as {le velcki pe do}.
{do velcki} does mean like you say  "you are an explanation", but
what follows {le} is never a whole bridi. Think of it as inserting {do}
into the sumti {le velcki} as a modifier. This is explained in
chapter 8 of the grammar.

> (mu'a {<lu [(xo da) (xadni do)] li'u> cumki})
>
> Does  "xoda xadni"  mean  "xo xadni"  with the "da" taking
> the value of the answer?

No, {xoda xadni do} means "How many things are the body of you?"
{da} is a sumti and {xo} quantifies it (or rather asks for a quantifier).

> ja lu xoda xadni le pa sezvi be do li'u
>
> Again, I'm confused by the "pa".  Here, the x2 of  "xadni"
> is  "(le {pa <sezvi [be do]>})", and I'm lost in trying to
> translate  "pa sezvi be do"

You can't translate it by itself without the {le}. {le pa sevzi be do}
means "the one and only self of you". Here it was important to
emphasize that we were talking of a single self.

> Translation:  As an aside, in my opinion no human language
>              limits the expression of ideas.
>
> Personally, I disagree.  I believe that *all* languages
> limit the expression of ideas, but are generally flexible
> enough to permit a back-and-forth to communicate meaning.

If the meaning can be communicated, in what sense can the
ideas not be expressed then?

> co'o mi'e kolin.

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 19:49:24 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Sufi story (as promised)

la kolin cusku di'e
> -> pruxrsufi ctulisri
>
> I'm lost on "pruxrsufi".  How does it break up?


prux-r-sufi. It's a fu'ivla, a word borrowed from another language.
I'm not sure what a Sufi is, but if it's a person then I might have
used {prijrsufi} instead.

> -> puzuvu pinfu
> Long ago, and far away ... prisoner.
> Pardon?

Perfectly good Lojban. In English you might say "there was
a prisoner".

> -> ria'gi le canko pe le pifzdani cu jakcai
>    gi le pinfu goi ko'a visku fu'inai
>
> This gets rejected by the parser, and I can't really make
> a start on how to break it down.

Try {ri'agi} instead of {ria'gi}.

> -> le xasli di'i mo'izo'a zdabartu cadzu
>
> The donkey regularly walks around its stable.
> ??

The {zda} is probably confusing. He meant that the donkey
walks outside by the window.

> -> le ko'a so'iroi visku le stedu ce'o le betfu ce'o le rebla
>
> I couldn't get the parser to accept that, it was confused
> by the "ce'o".

You need to add some ku's and remove the first {le}:

     ko'a so'iroi viska le stedu ku ce'o le betfu ku ce'o le rebla

>  -> jebabo ko'a lausku lu .ua mi jimpe
> I can't make sense of this at all ...

And after that, koha exclaims "I see!"

> -> le xasli cu rinka le stedu li'u
> The donkey causes the head what?

I think he must have meant {se rinka}, i.e. that the head is what
causes the donkey.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:26:56 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: jbopemci

>coi xorxes.
>ie velvei tarmi plini .i simsa co me la mesklin. pe ma'i le cukta poi se
>tcita lu le le juntytri ku planunkla li'u vau zo'o

coi maikl i pe'i mi na se slabu le cukta i ma te cukta

>ni'o lu darno zirpu li'u bi'unai valsi da poi purci lo nu remna zgana .i
>ma'a pilno lu barda spoja li'u le go'i .i paunai ma spoja .i ciksi cmalu .i
>ku'i pixra pe'a le puzuzuzu tolzga fasnu noi terpa ke'a

i mi'a bau le spano cu pilno zoi sy el big bang sy enai lo valsi poi
smuni lo spoja bau le spano i saske valsi i le krasi smuni cu cinri
gi'enai ku'i vajni i ta'o ia le cmene cu sinxa da poi cmatce ca le cfari
gi'e sutytce banro i pe'i na srana lo se terpa

>.i nitcu ge ge lo menli pixra ginai lo ve ciksi gi ge lo lisri ginai lo
>satci ve skicu .ijaba'u go'i lo mulno tolsmu poi melbi

i iecu'i i nitcu fi ma i lu darno zirpu li'u e lu barda spoja li'u cu melbi
cmene i ku'i ji'a le satci ke saske ve skicu be la bigbang cu melbi

>.i lu lizyzi'e li'u di'e tcita .itu'e
>
> vi le rolzda co ve vimcu ku
> da na jimpe de
> .i crino je ranxi selkabri ke
> se sumne se morji vau .i'u
> .i fu'e.i'unai le sfofa fagri
> bi'unai pu mlufau
> .i ko lo drata mi cu cpedu vau .iu
> .i velpemci tamca .i
>
> xunre joi blanu joi crino ranloi
> cei broda vau .i'unaisai
> .inaku ma'a datytsani broda
> cadzu fu'o pu'o
> le broda pupragve voi casnu ve'a ke'a
> le xazdo stagytai da'inai
>
>tu'u no'i melbi cmalu nixli ckule jboranmi bo pemci xu

i ie go'i i lo mutce selxarvli cu se nitcu fi le nu smudu'a

>ni'o fu'eda'i ju'a le broda cu ckafybarja .i le xunre nu'o sinxa le co'u
>pevdonri poi ctona'a fanmo gi'e le blanu nu'o sinxa le pu'o pevdonri poi
>bavytei cabycfa .iji'a le crino nu'o sinxa lo cnino ke bangu sidbo cuntu
>fu'o to'u

i pe'i ei le crino cu sinxa lei skacau sidbo noi fengu sipna

>.ita'onai le ranloi ca'a frica le bogrokci jubme mu'i tu'a lo morji genxu
>pe'a .i di'u ka'upei vau .i xanri stuzi terpli co'o mi'e maikl.

i mi na jimpe le du'u lo morji sidju cu mukti le nu frica
i li'a le ranloi cu frica le jubme
co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 13
   Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:42:47 -0300
   From: "Pablo Stafforini" <cancrians@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: talsa

> > Personally, I disagree.  I believe that *all* languages
> > limit the expression of ideas, but are generally flexible
> > enough to permit a back-and-forth to communicate meaning.
>
> If the meaning can be communicated, in what sense can the
> ideas not be expressed then?
>
>
pe'i lei bangu na jimte lei sidbo gi'e ku'i lei bangu ba'e tarmi lei sidbo
.i na cumki le nu pensi le sidbo enai le bangu
.i mi pacna le nu do jimpe mi .i .a'i lei pluju pensi nu nandu la lojban

co'o mi'e pablov



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Message: 14
   Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 08:36:18 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Sufi story (as promised)

"Jorge J. Llambas" wrote:

> From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> la kolin cusku di'e
> > -> pruxrsufi ctulisri
> >
> > I'm lost on "pruxrsufi".  How does it break up?
>
> prux-r-sufi. It's a fu'ivla, a word borrowed from another language.
> I'm not sure what a Sufi is, but if it's a person then I might have
> used {prijrsufi} instead.

Sufi = Islamic mystic (from Arabic tasaavuf, a word of unclear etymology)

>
>
> > -> puzuvu pinfu
> > Long ago, and far away ... prisoner.
> > Pardon?
>
> Perfectly good Lojban. In English you might say "there was
> a prisoner".
>

Exactly what I meant to say.

>
> > -> ria'gi le canko pe le pifzdani cu jakcai
> >    gi le pinfu goi ko'a visku fu'inai
> >
> > This gets rejected by the parser, and I can't really make
> > a start on how to break it down.
>
> Try {ri'agi} instead of {ria'gi}.
>

Oops, typo!

>
> > -> le xasli di'i mo'izo'a zdabartu cadzu
> >
> > The donkey regularly walks around its stable.
> > ??
>
> The {zda} is probably confusing. He meant that the donkey
> walks outside by the window.
>

Yes. "zdabartu" is from Nick's lujvo list, I think, and just means
"outdoors".

>
> > -> le ko'a so'iroi visku le stedu ce'o le betfu ce'o le rebla
> >
> > I couldn't get the parser to accept that, it was confused
> > by the "ce'o".
>
> You need to add some ku's and remove the first {le}:
>
>      ko'a so'iroi viska le stedu ku ce'o le betfu ku ce'o le rebla
>
> >  -> jebabo ko'a lausku lu .ua mi jimpe
> > I can't make sense of this at all ...
>
> And after that, koha exclaims "I see!"
>
> > -> le xasli cu rinka le stedu li'u
> > The donkey causes the head what?
>
> I think he must have meant {se rinka}, i.e. that the head is what
> causes the donkey.
>

.u'u Total mess here, I'm afraid! what I meant to say was actually:

le stedu cu rinka le rebla

"The head causes the tail"

I'll check the next story more carfully before I post it!

co'o mi'e robin.



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There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Sufi story 2
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Sufi Story 2 [translation]
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Language tapes take its first step...
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: lujvo question
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: Translation help required ...
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Re: le zo sezvi
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      9. Re: quoting non-lojban
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
     10. Re: talsa
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:17:58 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]

la xorxes. cusku di'e

>
> >>i ta'o pe'i no remna bangu
> >> cu jitri'u le nu sidbo cusku
> >
> >u'iro'e xu la xorxes. na krici le ti'icki pe la sapir .e la worf.
>
> i ia mi na krici

.a'u.u'i do tadni la lojban. mu'i mo


> pe'i lei bangu na jimte lei sidbo gi'e ku'i lei bangu ba'e tarmi lei sidbo
> .i na cumki le nu pensi le sidbo enai le bangu
> .i mi pacna le nu do jimpe mi .i .a'i lei pluju pensi nu nandu la lojban
>

ki'a pluju

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:00:26 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Sufi story 2

le remoi pruxrsufi ctulisri

re lo pruxrdervicu cu pendo i. pa le pruxrdervicu goi koa cu xadju
le cmana mui koa gunka le lanmegia  .i koa cu mutce cesyvue
.i.ue koa ponse lo makfa daskybukpu noi kea kakne le nu kea
vasru lei djacu .iseriabo ko'a zee noroi vee fee noroi cu taske

.i biu pa le pruxrdervicu goi koe cu xadju le tcadu mui koe
zbasu cutci .i koe cu klacpe koa le tcadu .i koa cu klama .i lo
melbi ninmu caavi zutse mui le ninmu cu djica le cutci .i le ninmu
cu lafmuu le skaci mui le nu koe cu frili visko le jamfu .i koa
cu selrau .i le djacu coa barfle fi le daskybukpu .i koe cu cusku
lu .ui li'a le ka cmana pruxrdervicu kei na simla le ka tcadu
pruxrdervicu

pruxrsufi - Sufi:  x1 pertains to Sufi doctrine/practice in Sufi
order x2
ctulisri - teaching story, parable (structure as lisri)
pruxrdervicu - dervish: x1 is a dervish of Sufi order x2
lanmegi'a - shepherd g1 g2=l3 g3 (?)
daskybukpu - handkerchief b1 b2
klacpe - to call someone to come: c1 k1=c3 k2 k3 k4 k5 c4
lafmu'u - to raise, to lift up: m1=l1 m2=l2 m3 m4 m5 l3 l4
barfle - to flow out of: f1 f2 f4=b2 (omit f3=b1)


Translation to follow.
Apoplogies in advance for any grammatical errors!

co'o mi'e robin.




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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:20:36 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Sufi Story 2 [translation]


re lo pruxrdervicu cu pendo i. pa le pruxrdervicu goi koa cu xadju
le cmana mui koa gunka le lanmegia  .i koa cu mutce cesyvue
.i.ue koa ponse lo makfa daskybukpu noi kea kakne le nu kea
vasru lei djacu .iseriabo ko'a zee noroi vee fee noroi cu taske

.i biu pa le pruxrdervicu goi koe cu xadju le tcadu mui koe
zbasu cutci .i koe cu klacpe koa le tcadu .i koa cu klama .i lo
melbi ninmu caavi zutse mui le ninmu cu djica le cutci .i le ninmu
cu lafmuu le skaci mui le nu koe cu frili visko le jamfu .i koa
cu selrau .i le djacu coa barfle fi le daskybukpu .i koe cu cusku
lu .ui li'a le ka cmana pruxrdervicu kei na simla le ka tcadu
pruxrdervicu

Two dervishes were friends.  One of them lived in the mountains
because he was a shepherd, and was very saintly.  Amazingly, he had
a handkerchief which could hold water, so at no time or place would
he be thirsty.

The other dervish lived in the city, because he was a shoemaker [NB
another typical Sufi occupation].  He invited the first dervish to
visit him in the city, and his friend came.  At that moment, a
beautiful woman was sitting there, because she wanted some shoes.
She lifted up her skirts so that the shoemaker could see her feet
more easily.  The first dervish was disturbed.  Water began to drip
from his handkerchief.  His friend said: "Hoho! Being a dervish in
the mountains is nothing like being a dervish in the city!"

Note:
This is a Turkish parable that I retold in Lojban (rather than
translating directly) then translated from Lojban to English, which
is why, even as a loose translation, the English is a bit stilted.
What struck me was that without assignable pronouns, English needs a
lot of redundant information to distinguish between ko'a and ko'e.
I could have gone further  and used ko'i for the woman, of course...

Two lujvo I forgot to gloss:

cesyvu'e x1 is holy/saintly by standard x2
selra'u - x1 is disturbed by x2 causing problem x3 (se position of
raktu)

Come to think of it I could have made "le nu djacu coa barfle fi le
daskybukpu" the x3 of the previous bridi, but that might have been a
bit indigestible.

co'o mi'e robin.




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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 08:05:19 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Language tapes take its first step...

For all of you who have just about given up on my production of a
language tape, fear no more.  Well, ok, fear a little less anyway.  I've
taken the next important step in the production process.  I've decided
that instead of posting the words and having everyone e-mail wav files
of the pronunciation at me, I would just take a stab at it and have
everyone give a critique.

To this end, please visit my new home page:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kingcats/

It's still pretty rough, but it has the minimum neccessary to satisfy my
needs at the moment.  I'll make corrections and improvements over the
next lifetime or so, starting with better navigation aids and a link to
e-mail me to let me know that I need to fix or add something.  All in
good time.

In the mean time, I've started small and posted the recordings for the
first ten words.  I'll post them quicker as my confidence in my ability
to pronounce these things improves.  I'll probably also put a progress
bar at the top of the page, just like in Windoze.

And, please, let me know what you think.

Robert Rapplean
kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxx



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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 10:46:37 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lujvo question

la djan. poi drata cu cusku di'e

> Can lujvo be composed of more than two rasfi/gismu? I see some of
> these in the dictionary, but no mention of them in the reference
> grammar except for 'zei' forms, which are not single words.

Certainly: as many terms as you like: see Sections 6.12, 6.13, 12.8.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:09:24 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]



cu'u la robin
>> >u'iro'e xu la xorxes. na krici le ti'icki pe la sapir .e la worf.
>>
>> i ia mi na krici
>
>.a'u.u'i do tadni la lojban. mu'i mo


i le nu la lojban cu se gerna lo saptce cu mukti le nu mi ly tadni

>> pe'i lei bangu na jimte lei sidbo gi'e ku'i lei bangu ba'e tarmi lei
sidbo
>> .i na cumki le nu pensi le sidbo enai le bangu
>> .i mi pacna le nu do jimpe mi .i .a'i lei pluju pensi nu nandu la lojban
>
>ki'a pluju

i pe'i la pablov cu skudji zo pluja

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:57:26 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Translation help required ...

la djan maynat cusku di'e
>.i doi xorxes do'u do certu ciksi le'i mi jufra no'i .u'u mi xusra le nu mi
>srera .i mi ciksi bazi le'i mi jufra bau le gicbau

i e'e ko na xusra i le nu srera cu sarcu le nu cilre

>I definitely could have expressed this better.  For one thing, I should
have
>said "lo'i prenu" instead of "le prenu", meaning something like "the
>everyman."

Maybe "lo'e prenu" is better. I don't like using "lo'i". To me it would
mean that the set itself was saying something, which doesn't make
much sense.


co'o mi'e xorxes



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Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:11:48 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le zo sezvi

>coi rodo mi'e la silVEN.oKLER.
>ni'o mi tcidu le notci le talsa la djan. maynat. de'i ze pi'e papa pi'e
>paki'ososobi .i pe'u mo smuni le zo sezvi .i ri cmima lemi gi'uste na
>co'o

mi jinvi le nu zo sevzi cu basti .ei zo sezvi

lojbab


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Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:34:38 -0500 (EST)
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: quoting non-lojban

la djan. poi drata cusku di'e

> I have a brief question concerning Lojban quotation. The cmavo 'zo'
> can be used to quote a single lojban word; but what about a singe
> non-lojban word? Does this need to be surrounded by cmavo? If so, what
> cmavo? Note that the following word may have non-lojbanic alphabetic
> characters.

There is no mechanism to quote a single non-Lojban word, since Lojban
engines don't understand how to break non-Lojban text into words.
(Before you start to mumble about space characters, Thai doesn't
use 'em, and doing line-breaking in Thai requires a full Thai
morphology algorithm.)

Therefore it's "zoi (any single Lojban word) (pause) (non-Lojban text)
(pause) (same Lojban word)", where the single word is not allowed to
appear in the text.  If it's a name rather than a quotation, use
"la'o" instead of "zoi".

--
John Cowan                                      cowan@xxxx.xxx
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.


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Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:17:00 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: talsa


>I'm also a little confused by  "le do velcki".  Looking up
>my gismu,

I'm not going to go through all your translations and questions, since
it seems that Jorge is doing so.  But you asked a couple of related questions
and at least in his first response, I don't think that Jorge addressed what
it seems that you are misunderstanding.  Specifically, I am responding to the
above as well as your questions about "le pa [selbri]", as a  category
of grammatical construction.

Within a description (a sumti of the general form "LE + SELBRI" with
various other appendages), the appendages are NOT generally part of
the selbri, but operate at the sumti level.  In terms of the reference
grammar, see chapter 6, sections 6,7,9, and all of chapter 8, but
especially section 7 for "le do [selbri]".

The corresponding YACC grammmar rules are _111, and _112.

You asked in one place about "le pa broda" vs "la pamoi broda".
In the latter case, the "pamoi" has the grammar of a brivla and is thus
a modifying part of the tanru.  In "le pa broda", the "pa" is an "inner
quantifier" and enumerates the number in the set being described.  Thus the
speaker is talking about "the one sentence I have in mind".  The latter would
indeed be "the first-sentence"  (in responding here I remembered that in
this example the "broda" was "jufra = sentence"), which as a tanru is
potentially ambiguous in meaning, but probably means the obvious "first of
some set of sentences".  With "le pa jufra", there is ONLY one sentence to
discuss.

Now looking back at the context, the speaker (Minots) was talking about
"le'i cizra smuni jufra" some set of bizarre sentences, possibly more
than one (and indeed for an English native speaker, I would expect that
using "le'i" is specifically an attempt to imply plural, because we don't
often consider "sets" with only one member.  So Minots is probably really
trying to express "one of the sentences", which would better be
"pa le jufra".  IN context when he has already referred to the sentences
using "le'i", however, this is the "obvious" interpretation of
"le pa jufra"; the other interpretation would be that he is belated trying
to say that there is only one bizarre sentence in the set, which seems
unlikely.  (The better way of specifying that he is only looking at a
singular set of bizarre sentence would be "le'i pa jufra", orsince there is
nothing particularly demanding "set" notation here, "le pa jufra" ON THE
FIRST MENTION.)

hope this clarifies not just the couple examples that confused you, but the
whole category of prepended modifiers to the sumti.  Note that in particular,
the numbers prepended to the sumti can get very complicated in interpretation
when you start dealing with "inner" and "outer" quantification and the
interaction with relative clauses, which is why I referred you to all of the
latter chapter.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: le'avla
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. proverbs and parables
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: talsa
           From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      5. Re: proverbs and parables
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:00:13 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: le'avla

la djan.kau'in [is this right?] cusku di'e

> Robin Turner wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't feel comfortable advertising Lojban to
> > my Turkish friends if the name of their language would come out as
> > something like "bangrturku", a word they would have great difficulty
> > in pronouncing in the first place!
>
> I've made this point before to howls of dismay, but:
>
> Technically, the Lojban phonological prescription says that it's
> frontness or backness (or centralness, in the case of "y"), plus
> tongue height, that determines the identity of a Lojban vowel,
> not roundedness.  Therefore, rounded front vowels are *front* vowels
> in Lojban, and the correct root form is "tirk" not "turk".

Well, at least that follows Turkish vowel harmony more closely than my
transposition of "" to "u"!  On the other hand, "turk" is phonologically
and orthographically closer to most other languages (Eng. "Turk", Italian
"Turco" etc.). I think with loanwords in general, the main thing is that
they should be as easily recognisable as possible by as many language
groups as possible, especially since many, if not most, will be created on
the fly.  There again, perhaps I've just been corrupted by spending too
much time on the Auxlang list ;-)

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:08:45 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]

la xorxes. cusku di'e

>
> cu'u la robin
> >> >u'iro'e xu la xorxes. na krici le ti'icki pe la sapir .e la worf.
> >>
> >> i ia mi na krici
> >
> >.a'u.u'i do tadni la lojban. mu'i mo
>
> i le nu la lojban cu se gerna lo saptce cu mukti le nu mi ly tadni

pe'i le lojbygerna na saptce .i ku'i lego'i cu melbi le ka satci je rolpre

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 14:42:23 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: proverbs and parables

coi rodoi

Firstly, thanks to all who have read, commented on and corrected my
translations of Turkish proverbs and parables - I find this helps my
language develop more quickly than spending hours poring over the
Book then forgetting it all the next day!  My other motivation in
translating this stuff is that I think it would be a nice idea to
build up a bank of proverbs and parables from a variety of
cultures.  This would be an excellent way to test/demonstrate
Lojban's precision and universality ("satci je rolpre", in my last
posting!) and stretch its ability to deal with allusive and
figurative language.  It would therefore be good if other people
could contribute translations of proverbs/parables from other
languages/cultures, particularly lesser-known ones (directly, that
is, not via an existing English translation).

In the long term, it would be nice to see a sizeable collection from
a variety of languages/cultures which (after proofreading, of
course) could go on the FTP site or even be published as a booklet
(I recently read a posting on the Auxlang list that over 30,000
books had been published in Esperanto, so we've got a way to go yet
- though of course this could just be symptomatic of Esperantists'
tendency to wild exaggeration!).  Such a collection would put some
weight behind Lojban's claim to be culturally neutral, and would
also be encouraging in the sense that by learning Lojban one can
read texts from a wide variety of cultures which will not always
exist in English (or other natlang) translation.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:08:31 +0000
   From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: talsa

In reply to my ...

> I'm also a little confused by  "le do velcki".

lojbab wrote ...

> Within a description ... the appendages are NOT generally
> part of the selbri, but operate at the sumti level.  In terms
> of the reference grammar, see chapter 6, sections 6,7,9, and
> all of chapter 8, but especially section 7 for "le do [selbri]".

> The corresponding YACC grammmar rules are _111, and _112.

Thank you, for this, and the remainder.  Much has been made
clearer, and I'll be working to absorb it all.


cdw.

Dr C.D.Wright
.sig under constru...


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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:18:21 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: proverbs and parables

>In the long term, it would be nice to see a sizeable collection from
>a variety of languages/cultures which (after proofreading, of
>course) could go on the FTP site or even be published as a booklet
>(I recently read a posting on the Auxlang list that over 30,000
>books had been published in Esperanto, so we've got a way to go yet
>- though of course this could just be symptomatic of Esperantists'
>tendency to wild exaggeration!).  Such a collection would put some
>weight behind Lojban's claim to be culturally neutral, and would
>also be encouraging in the sense that by learning Lojban one can
>read texts from a wide variety of cultures which will not always
>exist in English (or other natlang) translation.

The technical term for such a book is called a chrestomathy (sp?)
and it is onme of the 6 odd books already planned for, albeit probably
the last one.  We indeed want to have a collection of Lojban texts for
people.  We also want a variety of authors and source languages/cultures.
In order to have quality writing of course, we need to wait till we have
speakers all over who are producing such texts.  You and Jorge and others
posting recently show that we are starting to build that community of
people skilled in the language who are not "Lojban Central".

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. More honey
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: nabmi
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: talsa
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: Translation help required ...
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: nabmi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: More honey
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Re: lujvo preti
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      9. Re: lujvo preti
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:31:08 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: More honey

Another Turkish proverb about honey!

le bicysakta citka cu nalneldue le bicysakta

nalneldu'e n1 n2=d2

- a probably malformed stab at {(na'e nelci)dukse}
not-like(because-of)excess = be sick of / fed up with.  For clarity
I suppose it should be nalnelri'adu'e, but that's a bit of a
mouthful.  Another possibility might be serigdu'e

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:31:32 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: nabmi

la silVAN. cusku di'e

> coi mi'e la silVAN.oKLER.
> mi lojbo na .i mi cmima le kunlresperanto .i mi jinvi lenu nutli la
> lojban. na .i mi jinvi lenu merko lo'i gismu .i mi jinvi lenu so'o ge
> gismu gi cmavo selpli no'e .i go'e nabmi ni'o mi tidka'e bau le fraso je
> le bauresperanto je le glico co'o

coi silVAN

.u'i do lojbo ni'i le nu do cusku bau lojban

.i pe'u ko ciksi le ka merko lo'i gismu .i pe'i le gi'uste cu je'a nutli

co'o mi'e robin.




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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:00:57 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: talsa

doi djan. maynat. .i ji'a mi na'e certu zo'o
mi'e lojbab.


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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:59:39 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Translation help required ...

la djan maynat cusku di'e

>ni'o xu le nu le denpa by cu se na'e pilno kei cu kampu .i mi cafne zgana
le
>zu'o

i mi na'e pilno le depsni i le nu ciska le depsni cu na sarcu
i pe'i ro drata be mi ja'a pilno

>ni'ocai mi puzi cilre la esperanton. .i xu le valsi zo cxu cu jicmu le zo
xu

i mi na birti i pe'i zoi e cxu e na jicmu zo xu

>.i ta'o mi djuno le du'u mi na'e bilgi pilno tepi'o le pa naljbovalsi .i
>ta'onai le zo cxu cu selsni le satci dunli

i drani i lei re valsi cu simxu le ka smuni mintu

>.i .a'enai .i banzu

i e'e xamgu

>co'o be'i la djan. maynat.

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:41:39 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]

la robin cusku di'e

>> >.a'u.u'i do tadni la lojban. mu'i mo
>>
>> i le nu la lojban cu se gerna lo saptce cu mukti le nu mi ly tadni
>
>pe'i le lojbygerna na saptce .i ku'i lego'i cu melbi le ka satci je rolpre


i na frili le nu merli lo gerna fo le ka sampu iku'i pe'i le jbogerna
cu mutce zmadu lei rarbau gerna le ka sampu i pe'i ji'a
le ca'a jbogerna cu mleca le nu'o jbogerna le ka sampu
i a'o ma'a ra sapyzengau ba le mumna'a stodi

i ta'o ma smuni le nu lo gerna cu rolpre
i xu le nu ro prenu ka'e certu gy
i xu le gligerna mu'a cu rolpre

co'o mi'e xorxes






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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:29:16 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: nabmi



>coi mi'e la silVAN.oKLER.
>mi lojbo na .i mi cmima le kunlresperanto

coi silVAN mi'e xorxes
i mi lojbo gi'e spero
to zo spero cu nalca'i valsi zo kulnrxesperanto toi

>.i mi jinvi lenu nutli la
>lojban. na .i mi jinvi lenu merko lo'i gismu

i mi ji'a jinvi le nu la lojban cu mutce le ka le merko cu xlura ce'u
i ku'i pe'i na mutce nabmi

>.i mi jinvi lenu so'o ge
>gismu gi cmavo selpli no'e .i go'e nabmi

i so'e gismu e so'e cmavo noroi se pilno i la lojban ba farvi
lo farno be le merko krasi va'o le nu so'i na'e merko ly pilno

>ni'o mi tidka'e bau le fraso je
>le bauresperanto je le glico co'o

i fi'i silVAN i a'o do troci le nu lojbo ji'a

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:13:49 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: More honey

la robin cusku di'e

>Another Turkish proverb about honey!
>
>le bicysakta citka cu nalneldue le bicysakta
>
>nalneldu'e n1 n2=d2
>
>- a probably malformed stab at {(na'e nelci)dukse}
>not-like(because-of)excess = be sick of / fed up with.  For clarity
>I suppose it should be nalnelri'adu'e, but that's a bit of a
>mouthful.  Another possibility might be serigdu'e

I think I understand what you mean, but I find those lujvo
a bit confusing. I doubt you want {dukse} as the main component
of the lujvo. I'd try another tack:

        le bicysakta citka cu vusta'i le bicysakta

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:04:39 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lujvo preti

>Can the lujvo 'tolxamgu' can be in English as "bad",
>and 'nalxamgu' as "not-good"? I am trying to understand the
>application of polar vs. scalar negation.

I would take tolxamgu as being not merely bad, but as far from good as
possible on the unspecified scale.  nalxamgu is also "bad", but is more
akin to xlali - having the full range of other-than-good.  The typical
English semantics of "not good" can include either na'e xamgu or no'e
xamgu.  A "C" grade on a test is not good, but neither is it bad (unless
you fall short of honors or grad school admission as a result).

lojbab


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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:12:35 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lujvo preti

Logical Language Group wrote:

> From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
>
> >Can the lujvo 'tolxamgu' can be in English as "bad",
> >and 'nalxamgu' as "not-good"? I am trying to understand the
> >application of polar vs. scalar negation.
>
> I would take tolxamgu as being not merely bad, but as far from good as
> possible on the unspecified scale.  nalxamgu is also "bad", but is more
> akin to xlali - having the full range of other-than-good.  The typical
> English semantics of "not good" can include either na'e xamgu or no'e
> xamgu.  A "C" grade on a test is not good, but neither is it bad (unless
> you fall short of honors or grad school admission as a result).
>
> lojbab
>

What about doubleplus-ungood then? ;-)

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or
> service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 13:13:45 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]

la xorxes cusku di'e

> la robin cusku di'e
>
> >> >.a'u.u'i do tadni la lojban. mu'i mo
> >>
> >> i le nu la lojban cu se gerna lo saptce cu mukti le nu mi ly tadni
> >
> >pe'i le lojbygerna na saptce .i ku'i lego'i cu melbi le ka satci je rolpre
>
> i na frili le nu merli lo gerna fo le ka sampu iku'i pe'i le jbogerna
> cu mutce zmadu lei rarbau gerna le ka sampu

ba'unai .i lo ro runbau cu zmadu lo ro rarbau le ka smapu .iku'i le jbogerna cu
mleca piso'a lo runbau gerna le ka sampu

> i pe'i ji'a
> le ca'a jbogerna cu mleca le nu'o jbogerna le ka sampu
> i a'o ma'a ra sapyzengau ba le mumna'a stodi
>

.ie

>
> i ta'o ma smuni le nu lo gerna cu rolpre
> i xu le nu ro prenu ka'e certu gy
> i xu le gligerna mu'a cu rolpre
>

ki'a gy
.i le gligerna na rolpre .i le jbogerna cu mutce zmadu lei rarbau le ka rolpre
ki'u le jbocusku cu ka'e cuxna le gerna poi se djica ge'u lo'i jbogerna .imu'a
lo'e temci valsi goi ko'a so'imei lo cmavo .iku'i ko'a se cusku bainai .ipe'i
piso'a lo runbau goi ko'e na'e rolpre ri'a le nu le gerna po'e ko'e na'e zifre
.seri'abo lo'e runbau gerna cu simsa pa le rarbau gerna

co'o mi'e robin.



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Lojban Central/Lojban archive site will be moving soon - pls comment
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      2. Lojban Central/Lojban archive site will be moving soon - pls comment
           From: Thorild Selen <thorild@xxxxxx.xx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:19:28 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Lojban Central/Lojban archive site will be moving soon - pls comment

I just got notice that Digex, which was bought several months ago, is
shutting down its personal ISP services as of the end of the month.  They
are offering people smooth transition to their replacement merged ISP, but
it has significantly different provisions, so I am considering several
possibilities.

Anyone who knows ISPs serving the DC area can feel free to make
recommendations.   Two I am checking out are CAIS and Radixnet.
I am looking for shell capability if possible, since I use shell
rather than Windows/PPP for most of my access, but John Cowan thinks
this may not be necessary for LLG operations (though I know how to
do very little from PPP accesses except browse the Web).

The primary factor will probably be the Official Lojban archive, which
has been at www.access.digex.net  (I am told that whereever we move to,
the old address will forward for 90 days both for email to me and for accesses
to the site).

We currenyly have somewhat less than 30Meg on that site, for which we
have been paying $25/month or so on top of regular ISP charges.  Some considerations can be made which will affect costs to LLG, but could also affect you
who access the site.  So I would like opinions, especially from overseas
Lojbanists who may have fewer options or less robust net connections.

1. Some providers offer Web space but do not provide anonymous FTP access
(a URL ftp//...  invokes this kind of access).  Is there anyone out there
who cannot use  Web access (http// URL) to access the Lojban pages, or do
we need to be able to continue to support FTP to reach all our overseas
supporters?

2. Since we are paying $1/megabyte, we have avoided enlarging the material
hosted on the site except for things that we are pretty sure will be useful.
I have a lot more stuff that could be uploaded, including old Ju'i Lobypli
issues and text archives in various states of grammar validation.  One
ISP offers up to 50 Meg Web space as part of a package costing $70/month
which is a BIG step up in cost, but it would also allow us to put more
material up.  $45/month is about what we make on 2 books sold, so we have to
sell around 20-25 books in a year more to pay for this, with corresponding
delays in breaking even on the book and gfinancing other books.

3. How important is the speed of connectivity to the LOjban Web site to
you?  We have several options with smaller ISPs which do not have anywhere near
as high a throughput as Digex, which operates its own US-nationwide backbone
at extremely high data rates.

4. Sould we consider getting our own address space - probably www.lojban.org?
Some of the more expensive options include this as part of the package,
especially if we pay a year at a time, but the nominal charges tend to
be around $100 for setup, and $35/year to have the address registered.
The advantage of course  would be portability of the address if we have to
move ISPs again, and of course name-recognition and the sense that Lojban
and LLG are around to stay implicit in having a real address.  But again,
the money isn't trivial, and using the address requires that we rule out
some of the cheapest ISP options that would not support such an address
space.

5. In all likelihood I will try to gain the use of both lojban@ and lojbab@
for the new ISP, if such is offered.  I know there have been people who
suffered from typos or simply not noticing that the userid here ends with
a b instead of an n (or not remembering).

6.  We feel it is advantageous to the organization to maintain an official
site that Cowan and I can easily access and maintain the files on, and which
we have direct control over.  This also makes it clear to people like
hezekiah that we welcome other WWW pages in addition to Veijo's Finland
site, which keeps a status as a European mirror and not-quite-official
status as a result of the main site being whereever my account is.  However,
if people have arguments as to why we should do something different, let us
hear them.

7. Note that this account is officially an LLG account and not my personal
account, though I don't use a separate account for personal stuff.  I am not
sure that this matters much to our decision, since my personal use has
always been incidental and secondary to my primary use of this account for
Lojban support (Indeed Cowan practically dragged me into getting on the net
several years ago to help support the Lojban community, when I was trying
to avoid dealing with the Internet.  At times he probably wishes I had stayed
off net, since net activity tends to be an enormous time consumer to me,
especially when I get into answering Lojban posts (which I try to avoid as
a result).

Again, I have to make decisions ASAP, but the old addresses will be
usable via forwarding for a couple months.  Let me know what you think.
(This goes double for certain silent LLG Board members %^).

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:54:56 +0100
   From: Thorild Selen <thorild@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Lojban Central/Lojban archive site will be moving soon - pls comment

Logical Language Group writes:
 > Anyone who knows ISPs serving the DC area can feel free to make
 > recommendations.   Two I am checking out are CAIS and Radixnet.
 > I am looking for shell capability if possible, since I use shell
 > rather than Windows/PPP for most of my access, but John Cowan thinks
 > this may not be necessary for LLG operations (though I know how to
 > do very little from PPP accesses except browse the Web).

It might be quite useful! I suggest that you try to get it, unless it
will cost a lot more.

 > who access the site.  So I would like opinions, especially from overseas
 > Lojbanists who may have fewer options or less robust net connections.

This shouldn't be a problem, I think. It would be good to have a few
mirrors, though. However, I don't think that Lojban is that popular yet,
that bandwidth and server capacity will be a big issue.

 > 1. Some providers offer Web space but do not provide anonymous FTP access
 > (a URL ftp//...  invokes this kind of access).  Is there anyone out there
 > who cannot use  Web access (http// URL) to access the Lojban pages, or do
 > we need to be able to continue to support FTP to reach all our overseas
 > supporters?

If somebody wants ftp access, then you could have an ftp mirror. It
shouldn't matter much whether the main site supports anonymous ftp or
not.

 > 2. Since we are paying $1/megabyte, we have avoided enlarging the material
 > hosted on the site except for things that we are pretty sure will be useful.

One could encourage others to set up other Lojban sites. It would of
course be a good thing to have all the useful stuff in one place, though...

 > 3. How important is the speed of connectivity to the LOjban Web site to
 > you?  We have several options with smaller ISPs which do not have anywhere near
 > as high a throughput as Digex, which operates its own US-nationwide backbone
 > at extremely high data rates.

Aim for cheap -- until it's time for streaming video, Live from Lojbanistan.
No, really, what would you need that bandwidth for? I don't think there
will ever be hundreds of people accessing the site simultaneously. Not
within a few years, at least.

 > 4. Sould we consider getting our own address space - probably www.lojban.org?

Yes, I think that should be considered! It would be good to have an
address that's easy to remember and recognise.

 > 5. In all likelihood I will try to gain the use of both lojban@ and lojbab@

Good idea -- you could use one for official messages and the other for
more personal stuff.

 > 7. Note that this account is officially an LLG account and not my personal
 > account, though I don't use a separate account for personal stuff.  I am not

Lots of people use accounts at work/school for personal stuff. If you
have several mailboxes and use one for official purposes (lojban@whatever)
and one for personal purposes (lojbab@...) I don't think anybody would
complain, as long as you use it responsibly.


Thorild (who ought to make some more efforts to learn lojban soon... has had
         lots to do lately.)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. more on change in Lojban Central ISP
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:22:33 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: more on change in Lojban Central ISP

OK.  After having done some ISP shopping I have a better idea of the
tradeoffs, and some of the things I was worried about are apparently not
an issue.  Thanks to those who have responded, in any event.

The choices reduce to basically two.  I can get an account similar to
what I've had at Digex, which will run between $45-$50/mo including the
Lojban master archive ftp/web site (there does not seem to be a premium
on FTP as I had thought).  Or I can get an LLG corporate account, which
will allow us up to 50 Meg with no additional disk charges.  This would
run around $70/mo.  The cheaper account would cost us around $70/mo also
if we used 50 Meg of Web space, but would have much lower limits on
usage of the Web site before triggering bandwidth charges, not that the
Lojban site is being heavily accessed.  Also, for the corporate account,
they will waive the setup charges to get lojban.org, although we will
need to pay the Internic charge of $35/year.  It is not clear whether
the "personal access account" would be able to use the org address, or
whether there would be a setup charge if they could.  I suspect that it
would NOT be usable for "personal" Web space.

The big question is whether we have enough additional stuff to justify
using 50 Meg for our Web site, and whether making this stuff available
for free is worth around $300/year.  The secondary question is whether
we need (as opposed to want) the lojban.org attached to the site
(reserving it but not yet using it is also an option).

We could also consider going the other direction.  Let Veijo and other
net sites currently mirroring our site maintain the complete Lojban List
archive (the largest part of the disk space) while we maintain only a
few recent months on the master site (though Cowan and I would retain
our own copies of the archive off net so that they could be restored at
some future time).  This would reduce the Web space and save money, or
allow us to add new material without paying more.

Finally, we could reduce the need for a comprehensive Web site by
cutting a CD-ROM with the contents of the Web archive and perhaps some
other stuff.  This would again allow us to reduce what is on line, and
also maybe make some money so that we can publish another book sooner.
We had planned to do this eventually, but figured it would be better to
wait until books were done, so that more useful stuff could be included
on the disk.

I have no idea what would be an appropriate price for such a CDROM so
I'll take suggestions from anyone favoring such an option as to what
they would consider reasonable to pay for it.

The bottom line is around $300-$400 per year in charges, which is
another 10-15 books sold in order to cover our overhead each year before
paying off printing costs.


----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP
           From: "Pablo Stafforini" <cancrians@xxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:00:54 -0300
   From: "Pablo Stafforini" <cancrians@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP

coi

        I think there is one aspect that should be improved greately: advertising.
That's the way people get in touch with the language for the first time. An
effort should be made so as to have lojban in the first ranks among the main
search engines.
        Of course, one might think that if someone is interested in constructed
languages, he is going to find lojban, sooner or later. But I believe that a
lot of potential lojabnists stop digging before finding lojban. For
instance, I became acquainted with lojban by a link in "the human languages
page". If I hand't found lojban soon, maybe my interest in conlags would
have fade away, or maybe I would have chosen another conlag. to ui. mi pu
penmi la lojban toi
        If the problem when deciding between a bigger site or a smaller one is the
money, I think that a good advertising policy would certainly improve the
number of lojbanists, therefore rising the demand of books and allowing the
lojban community the luxury of having the bigger site, with the "lojban.org"
name.

        I know several "URL submitters", which allow one to submit the site to
different search engines at the same time, which would make the process
easier. Also, the site should definitely have META TAGS (veijo's site does
not have).
        If this is going to be done, I can help, since I have a site and I know how
this works relatively well.

        Another improvement that could be done is to put an online form to buy the
book. That may seem trivial, but it is always good to facilitate things to
the buyer. I don't honestly know if these are easy to install, though.

        Finally, one or more lojanists could go to amazon.com and write a review of
the book. I've read some web statistics stating that books in amazon.com
which are reviewed are more frequently buyed than those that don't have
comments. I know there is a review by lojbab (or one of the responsibles of
"the logical language group"), but it would be also good to have the opinion
of the readers. And I  know the opinions are going to be good, so it will
definitely encourage potential lojbanists.

        I hope this is of help...

co'o mi'e pablov


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Logical Language Group [mailto:lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 2:23 AM
> To: lojban@xxxxxxx.xxx
> Subject: [lojban] more on change in Lojban Central ISP
>
>
> From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx>
>
> OK.  After having done some ISP shopping I have a better idea of the
> tradeoffs, and some of the things I was worried about are apparently not
> an issue.  Thanks to those who have responded, in any event.
>
> The choices reduce to basically two.  I can get an account similar to
> what I've had at Digex, which will run between $45-$50/mo including the
> Lojban master archive ftp/web site (there does not seem to be a premium
> on FTP as I had thought).  Or I can get an LLG corporate account, which
> will allow us up to 50 Meg with no additional disk charges.  This would
> run around $70/mo.  The cheaper account would cost us around $70/mo also
> if we used 50 Meg of Web space, but would have much lower limits on
> usage of the Web site before triggering bandwidth charges, not that the
> Lojban site is being heavily accessed.  Also, for the corporate account,
> they will waive the setup charges to get lojban.org, although we will
> need to pay the Internic charge of $35/year.  It is not clear whether
> the "personal access account" would be able to use the org address, or
> whether there would be a setup charge if they could.  I suspect that it
> would NOT be usable for "personal" Web space.
>
> The big question is whether we have enough additional stuff to justify
> using 50 Meg for our Web site, and whether making this stuff available
> for free is worth around $300/year.  The secondary question is whether
> we need (as opposed to want) the lojban.org attached to the site
> (reserving it but not yet using it is also an option).
>
> We could also consider going the other direction.  Let Veijo and other
> net sites currently mirroring our site maintain the complete Lojban List
> archive (the largest part of the disk space) while we maintain only a
> few recent months on the master site (though Cowan and I would retain
> our own copies of the archive off net so that they could be restored at
> some future time).  This would reduce the Web space and save money, or
> allow us to add new material without paying more.
>
> Finally, we could reduce the need for a comprehensive Web site by
> cutting a CD-ROM with the contents of the Web archive and perhaps some
> other stuff.  This would again allow us to reduce what is on line, and
> also maybe make some money so that we can publish another book sooner.
> We had planned to do this eventually, but figured it would be better to
> wait until books were done, so that more useful stuff could be included
> on the disk.
>
> I have no idea what would be an appropriate price for such a CDROM so
> I'll take suggestions from anyone favoring such an option as to what
> they would consider reasonable to pay for it.
>
> The bottom line is around $300-$400 per year in charges, which is
> another 10-15 books sold in order to cover our overhead each year before
> paying off printing costs.
>
>
> ----
> lojbab
> lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
> Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
> 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA
> 703-385-0273
> Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
>     or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
>     Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription
> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
> select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 02:01:22 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP

>        I know several "URL submitters", which allow one to submit the site
>to different search engines at the same time, which would make the process
>easier. Also, the site should definitely have META TAGS (veijo's site does
>not have).
>        If this is going to be done, I can help, since I have a site and I
>know  how
>this works relatively well.


I would say that you should talk to Veijo and hezekiah, and offer your
assitance if they need it.  LLG would certainly support any promotional
activities, but I can't do it myself because of overcommitment; neither
can Cowan.  The latter is why there is no advertising or promotion.

>        Another improvement that could be done is to put an online form to
>buy t he
>book. That may seem trivial, but it is always good to facilitate things to
>the buyer. I don't honestly know if these are easy to install, though.

We could put in a link to Amazon.com, but since we cannot take credit
cards over the net, an online order form direct to us won't work.
Someday I will nmeed to find a credit card firm that will accept the net
stuff, and maybe find out fhow to setupo the secure links needed to have people
trust it.  But again this takes time I don't have - it took me almost 6 months
to get credit cards set up the first time, so changing providers is not
something I look forward to.

> Finally, one or more lojanists could go to amazon.com and write a review
> of
>the book.

I approve.

lojbab


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:11:54 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP

>         I think there is one aspect that should be improved greately: advertising.
> That's the way people get in touch with the language for the first time. An
> effort should be made so as to have lojban in the first ranks among the main
> search engines.

I have to agree with this point.  Lojban is the primary purpose of my website, but I
would have a mention of it there even if it weren't.  Lojban is a long way away from a
critical mass of speakers, and has some pretty poor publicity at the moment.  I had to
find out about it from a friend.  Injecting it into mainstream articles and
conversations might be a big payoff.

>         If the problem when deciding between a bigger site or a smaller one is the
> money, I think that a good advertising policy would certainly improve the
> number of lojbanists, therefore rising the demand of books and allowing the
> lojban community the luxury of having the bigger site, with the "lojban.org"
> name.

I'd go for the smaller site, and spend a little of the difference on banner ads or the
like.

>         I know several "URL submitters", which allow one to submit the site to
> different search engines at the same time, which would make the process
> easier. Also, the site should definitely have META TAGS (veijo's site does
> not have).

Please give details about these meta tags.  They aren't described in my manual.

>         Another improvement that could be done is to put an online form to buy the
> book. That may seem trivial, but it is always good to facilitate things to
> the buyer. I don't honestly know if these are easy to install, though.

It isn't hard to write the form, it's just difficult to make use of it.  For instance,
the credit card thing is probably out of the range of feasability right now, so payment
by internet isn't very likely.  The only thing that that leaves is an advance warning
system.  Now, we COULD write something that generates an html orderform with all of the
correct information on it for them to print out and send with their check, but the NOW
generation would feel a little cheated by that.

co'o

Robert Rapplean



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP
           From: "Chris Double" <chris@xxx.xx.xxx
      2. Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: Lojban Central/Lojban archive site will be moving
           From: And Rosta <a.rosta@xxxxx.xx.xxx
      4. ADMIN: messages will be delayed
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      5. Advertising, meta tags, etc.
           From: "Pablo Stafforini" <cancrians@xxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:18:29 +1300
   From: "Chris Double" <chris@xxx.xx.xx>
Subject: Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP

> I think there is one aspect that should be improved greately: advertising.
>That's the way people get in touch with the language for the first time. An
>effort should be made so as to have lojban in the first ranks among the
main
>search engines.

Good idea. I searched for 'constructed language' in yahoo and the lojban
home page was one of the top links there. No other lojban pages were listed
though. I'll have to try submitting mine and seeing what happens :-)

Using hotbot I had less luck. Neither 'constructed language' or 'artificial
language' gave lojban within the first 20 links at all. Searching for
'lojban' itself did give a few references though. I noticed that even
relatively new languages like 'ngl' appeared higher up the list in hotbot !
Maybe this is the popularity that goes with youth.

> If the problem when deciding between a bigger site or a smaller one is the
>money, I think that a good advertising policy would certainly improve the
>number of lojbanists, therefore rising the demand of books and allowing the
>lojban community the luxury of having the bigger site, with the
"lojban.org"
>name.

I like the idea of having a 'lojban.org' to go to. It's a lot easier when
explaining to people about lojban to say 'go to www.lojban.org'. It's easier
for them to remember too.

Buying a copy of the lojban book and donating it to your local library may
help as well - then you can tell friends and colleagues that they can read
all about it at the library. Somehow the impressive look of that book makes
the task of learning lojban look more 'real' to people than just learning
'some weird internet language'.

Learning to speak it is good advertising too. I'd  like to learn some good
lojban curses - then I can let loose with some arcane sounding utterance
when upset and the stunned onlookers will learn all about lojban when they
ask what the heck I said - just kidding ;-)

> I know several "URL submitters", which allow one to submit the site to
>different search engines at the same time, which would make the process
>easier. Also, the site should definitely have META TAGS (veijo's site does
>not have).

Good stuff. Would it help if we all submitted the URL's to the search
engines or is that a 'bad thing'.

> Another improvement that could be done is to put an online form to buy the
>book. That may seem trivial, but it is always good to facilitate things to
>the buyer. I don't honestly know if these are easy to install, though.

Easy to install but harder to administer I think. Although the process can
come free with some web sites I believe. How to arrange payment through
credit cards is probably the most difficult part. The easier it is for
someone to click a button to buy a book, the better. Just plugging a card
number in would be so much easier than having to snail mail a request. Does
the logical language group get much out of sales through Amazon? Is it worth
plugging the availability of the book through this avenue or do you make
very little money from it after Amazon get their cut and would prefer we get
'potential buyers' to email lojbab?


Chris.
--
http://www.cnd.co.nz/lojban



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:38:53 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: more on change in Lojban Central ISP

>Does
>the logical language group get much out of sales through Amazon? Is it worth
>--More--
>plugging the availability of the book through this avenue or do you make
>very little money from it after Amazon get their cut and would prefer we get
>'potential buyers' to email lojbab?

We charge Amazon.com $35 for the books (we didn't raise the price at the end of
the intro period) - at one time we were going to cut this to $30, but they
don't remeber this, and we need the money.  If we were to put links to
amazon on our site, then I think we get a percentage of the sale, but I
am not sure how this works.

The problem is that amazon.com charges the retail list of $48.  I think that
their overseas charge is in between our surface and airmail charges and
gets there in an intermediate time, so that international orders are
closer to our airmail book order price.  But in any event, the buyer pays more,
which seems more significant to me than the fact that we get a little less.

amazon has generated around 20 of our 225 sales so far.  Barnes and Noble has
generated 5, but so far as I know, none from their online service.

BTW, in addition to purchasing a book and donating it to a library, as some
have suggested, you CAN ask your library to purchase a copy.  A few orders
have come directly from libraries.  But if you do so, it is worthwhile to
tell them that we require advance payment.  Most libraries have sent us
purchase orders expecting us to bill them, which I have no capability to do.
So we end up exchanging letters which can take months given how slow I
am at getting around to such things.  We have sold around 5 books directly to
libraries.

lojbab


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:55:17 GMT+0
   From: And Rosta <a.rosta@xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: Lojban Central/Lojban archive site will be moving

> 4. Sould we consider getting our own address space - probably www.lojban.org?

PR-wise this sounds good.

--And. [gone into purdah but still here]


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:57:05 -0500 (EST)
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: ADMIN: messages will be delayed

Messages received by onelist.com after 2 AM Thursday (Universal Time)
will be delayed until 8 AM Thursday (Universal Time).  No mail should be
lost.  This is required to do a hardware upgrade at onelist.com.

Note that U.S. Eastern times are 5 hours behind, so the delay will
start at 9 P.M. Wednesday.  In U.S. Pacific time, it's 6 P.M. Wednesday.

--
John Cowan                                      cowan@xxxx.xxx
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:50:24 -0300
   From: "Pablo Stafforini" <cancrians@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Advertising, meta tags, etc.

coi rodo

        Meta Tags are words that you include in your page (HTML source code). The
search engines, once you submitt your page to them, go to your site and
explore it. If you have meta tags then they include them in their databse,
so that everytime someone puts one of those words, the site is likely to
appear.
        So, the site must be submitted only AFTER you include the meta tags in the
source code. Otherwise, when the search engine goes to your page, it won't
generate any keyword!

        It must be said that the whole process of advertising is very tricky, since
different search engines have different policies. You may submitt a site to
different places and in some of them your site will appear in the firts
ranks, while in others it will be at the bottom. One person asked if it
would be better to submit the same site several times. That depends on the
search engine. Some consider it as spam, while others don't. It's just so
mysterious!

        But I suggest that each month someone should be designed to do this
submision. It takes less than half an hour. This way we can constantly test
the evolution of the rankings. If we see that, for instance, in Altavista
Lojban is ranked in the first ten places (optimum) then we know that the
keywords used in the last submission were the best. Conversely, if the site
did not evolve, a change must be done.
        I can volunteer to do this for the first time, but of course we must first
wait until we have the new site (it's of course useless to advertise the
current one, since it is going to disapear soon).

        Also, the lojbanists that have personal lojban sites can submit their
sites, too.

This is how META TAGS work


<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE> title of your page </TITLE>

<META NAME="description" CONTENT="Description of the site (I think it's 200
charcaters maximum)">
<META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="Here you should put the 'keywords' (I think
it's 1000 characters max.">

</HEAD>
<BODY>



Here is a sample of what should be in the source HTML code of the site:


<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>The Logical Language Group Home Page</TITLE>

<META NAME="description" CONTENT="Lojban is an artificial
(human-created)logical  language designed for...[etc. This should be as
self-descriptive as possible: this is what people see in the search engine,
and it should catch their attention!]">

<META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="human created language, logical language,
artificial language, constructed language, conlag, lojban, loglan,
constructed human language, [etc. as much keywords as possible. A good thing
would be to put these words also in the plural, like: constructed languages,
created languages, etc]">

</HEAD>
<BODY>


Once the meta tags are done, it's time for submitting.

The following is a link to the fastest Free URL submitter I know:

http://www.fg-a.com/RegisterYourSite.htm

This one has more search engines, but the submitting process is more time
consuming:

http://www.fg-a.com/RegisterYourSite.htm


This is a place to optimize the site. It measures the compatibility among
different browsers, speed, etc. It's useful, and it's free.

http://www.websitegarage.com/


Please let me know what you think :)

co'o



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. le selpensi be mi
           From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. ADMIN: list lockup postponed
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:18:14 -0500
   From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le selpensi be mi

.i la lojban. caze'apu pensi mi
.i za'a levi velsku ta'e selpilno bau le glicybangu
.i li'a la lojban. snada .au seni'i le nu tavla fo ly.
.ijebo mi djica le nu mi'o pilno ly. mu'i la'edi'u
to .au zmadu fi le ni tavla be ba'e FO la lojban.
.ijebo mleca fi le ni tavla be ba'e FI la lojban. toi
ni'o
ma se pensi do?
.i ma se jinvi do le tcini be le raksynai?

mi'e bret

fe'o

translation:

i have been thinking about lojban for a while
i have observed that this forum is usually used in english
clearly lojban succeeding (which i desire) requires that it be used
and thus i want us to use it
(i'd like to see more talking IN lojban
and less talking ABOUT lojban)

what do you think?
what's your opinion about the situation in Iraq?

Brett.

[over and out]


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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:35:45 -0500 (EST)
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: ADMIN: list lockup postponed

The list lockup has been postponed until Saturday at 0800 UTC,
3 AM U.S. Eastern, midnight U.S. Pacific time.  It will last for 12 hours.
During this time, incoming mail will be held and not sent out to the
list.  No incoming mail should be lost.  After this is done, the
machine that archives the list will be upgraded.


--
John Cowan                                      cowan@xxxx.xxx
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. More proverbs, and a digression on badness
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: le selpensi be mi
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: More proverbs, and a digression on badness
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: lujvo preti
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: More proverbs, and a digression on badness
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      7. Re: le selpensi be mi
           From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:46:49 +0200 (EET)
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: More proverbs, and a digression on badness


A cynical one here:

   ko xamgu seria lenu se xlali

(I'm assuming here that it is permissable to elide "do"
as the (transposed) first place of "lenu se xlali")

A more literal translation is:

   ko xamgu .i ko se xlali

or even

   ko ge xamgu gi se xlali

although these both lose the causal connection implicit in the
original.  This is a problem in lojbanising figurative language.
"ko xamgu .i ko se xlali" sounds nice, and is a closer translation,
but what it means semantically is that I am ordering/requesting you
to be good (for someone) and also to be the recipient of something
bad.  The sense is more like "le prenu poi xamgu cu se xlali" but
that's pretty boring.  Perhaps "pe'a ko ge xamgu gi xlali".

Incidentally, I'm not so sure about the note on "xlali" in the
gi'uste:

xlali [ xla ] bad ; 'mal-'
x1 is bad for x2 by standard x3; x1 is poor/unacceptable to x2
[be careful to distinguish between a bad/unacceptable event,
and a bad/unacceptable agent: x1 does poorly (= lenu ko'a gasnu cu
xlali and not normally ko'a xlali)]; (cf. palci, mabla, xamgu,
betri)

This seems to carry over into Lojban the natlang fallacy of
distinguishing between "be" and "do".

   la djan xlali

means that John is bad for some person by some standard, which is
the same as John doing something which has a bad effect on some
person, which is the same as "le nu la djan. gasnu cu xlali", unless
you mean that the fact that John exists is in and of itself harmful,
or that there is some transcendent metaphysical quality of badness
which John possesses, in which latter case a different word would be
appropriate (probably "palci").



With this next one I'm not sure if the metaphorical use of "barda"
in "barda tavla" (talk big) is permissable:

   ko citka le barda djaspi .i ko na barda tavla

and finally the opposite of "dog eat dog" perhaps!

   le lajgerku na batci le lajgerku


co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:00:58 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le selpensi be mi

la bret cusku di'e

>.i la lojban. caze'apu pensi mi

i u'i la lojban cu ba'e se pensi do i la lojban na pensi

>.i za'a levi velsku ta'e selpilno bau le glicybangu

i oi ie do drani i mi troci le nu la lojban cu zenba se pilno

>.i li'a la lojban. snada .au seni'i le nu tavla fo ly.
>.ijebo mi djica le nu mi'o pilno ly. mu'i la'edi'u

i ui mi go'i  i e'e ma'a ly pilno

>to .au zmadu fi le ni tavla be ba'e FO la lojban.
>.ijebo mleca fi le ni tavla be ba'e FI la lojban. toi

i mi do tugni

>ni'o
>ma se pensi do?
>.i ma se jinvi do le tcini be le raksynai?

i xlali tcini i pe'i pu'o jamna i la sadam xusein
cu nitcu le te bradi le nu stali le ka jitro
i do ma jinvi

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:02:06 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le ti'icki pe la sapir.e la worf. [was Re: talsa]

la robin cusku di'e
>ba'unai .i lo ro runbau cu zmadu lo ro rarbau le ka smapu .iku'i le
jbogerna cu
>mleca piso'a lo runbau gerna le ka sampu

i mi na se slabu lo se pilno runbau poi ke'a zmadu la lojban le ka
le gerna be ce'u cu sampu i ma mupli

>> i a'o ma'a ra sapyzengau ba le mumna'a stodi
>.ie

i u'i a'o la lojbab na tcidu dei i ly na ba nelci

>> i ta'o ma smuni le nu lo gerna cu rolpre
>> i xu le nu ro prenu ka'e certu gy
>> i xu le gligerna mu'a cu rolpre
>
>ki'a gy

i ta'o ma smuni le nu lo gerna goi ko'a cu rolpre
i xu le nu ro prenu ka'e certu ko'a

>.i le gligerna na rolpre .i le jbogerna cu mutce zmadu lei rarbau le ka
rolpre
>ki'u le jbocusku cu ka'e cuxna le gerna poi se djica ge'u lo'i jbogerna

i pe'i le jbogerna cu pamei i ie le cusku ka'e pilno lo pagbu be le gerna
i ku'i le te cusku cu pagbu le nunsku gi'e nitcu le nu se slabu piro le
gerna

>.imu'a
>lo'e temci valsi goi ko'a so'imei lo cmavo .iku'i ko'a se cusku bainai
.ipe'i
>piso'a lo runbau goi ko'e na'e rolpre ri'a le nu le gerna po'e ko'e na'e
zifre
>.seri'abo lo'e runbau gerna cu simsa pa le rarbau gerna

i pe'i lo gerna na ka'e zifre i ro gerna cu stura i ka'e sampu ja pluja
i pe'i lo gerna cu sampu va'o le nu se frili le nu ciksi gy

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:59:26 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: More proverbs, and a digression on badness

la robin cusku di'e
>   ko xamgu seria lenu se xlali
>   ko xamgu .i ko se xlali
>   ko ge xamgu gi se xlali
>
>"ko xamgu .i ko se xlali" sounds nice, and is a closer translation,
>but what it means semantically is that I am ordering/requesting you
>to be good (for someone) and also to be the recipient of something
>bad.

Right. I don't know how justifiable it is to use the Lojban imperative
in this way. The proverb is an admonition against being good, so it
sounds strange to translate it as {ko xamgu}.

>The sense is more like "le prenu poi xamgu cu se xlali" but
>that's pretty boring.

You might use the same pattern of some of the other proverbs you
translated: {le xamgu cu se xlali}.

Maybe we can even make a properly lojbanic proverb based on
this and playing with complements and opposites:

    i le zunle cu se pritu
    i le gapru cu se cnita
    i le xamgu cu se xlali

>Perhaps "pe'a ko ge xamgu gi xlali".

I would tend to read it as saying "I don't mean xamgu and xlali
literally", rather than "I don't mean this as an imperative".

>With this next one I'm not sure if the metaphorical use of "barda"
>in "barda tavla" (talk big) is permissable:
>
>   ko citka le barda djaspi .i ko na barda tavla

I think it's acceptable. I assume it means "don't talk about big
things" (implying something like too big for you to understand)
and not "don't exaggerate", right?

Maybe more succintly: {ko lo barda cu citka gi'enai setese tavla}

>and finally the opposite of "dog eat dog" perhaps!
>
>   le lajgerku na batci le lajgerku

To me that says that it doesn't bite itself. I would say:

       lo lajgerku na batci lo lajgerku

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:48:56 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lujvo preti

>Logical Language Group wrote:
>
>> I would take tolxamgu as being not merely bad, but as far from good as
>> possible on the unspecified scale.

I disagree. I don't think {tolxamgu} means the worst possible, that
would be {tolxagrai}. To me {tolxamgu} is pretty much synonymous
with {xlali}

>> nalxamgu is also "bad", but is more
>> akin to xlali - having the full range of other-than-good.

But {xlali} does not have the full range of other-than-good!
It doesn't cover the "indifferent" part of the range.

cu'u la robin
>What about doubleplus-ungood then? ;-)

That would be {tolxautcetce}: mutce le ka mutce le ka to'e xamgu

Although it wouldn't be a very good translation for the Orwellian
word because in Lojban it is a perfectly ordinary word, without
any funny weirdness about it.

co'o mi'e xorxes



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Message: 6
   Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 02:39:26 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: More proverbs, and a digression on badness

>Incidentally, I'm not so sure about the note on "xlali" in the
>gi'uste:
>
>xlali [ xla ] bad ; 'mal-'
>x1 is bad for x2 by standard x3; x1 is poor/unacceptable to x2
>[be careful to distinguish between a bad/unacceptable event,
>and a bad/unacceptable agent: x1 does poorly (= lenu ko'a gasnu cu
>xlali and not normally ko'a xlali)]; (cf. palci, mabla, xamgu,
>betri)

>This seems to carry over into Lojban the natlang fallacy of
>distinguishing between "be" and "do".
>
>   la djan xlali
>
>means that John is bad for some person by some standard, which is
>the same as John doing something which has a bad effect on some
>person, which is the same as "le nu la djan. gasnu cu xlali", unless
>you mean that the fact that John exists is in and of itself harmful,
>or that there is some transcendent metaphysical quality of badness
>which John possesses, in which latter case a different word would be
>appropriate (probably "palci").

You are correct - we DON'T want to carry over the natural language
fallacy, and therefore, most cases of "la djan. xlali" should
be "tu'a la djan. xlali".  That is the point I was trying to make with
the note, which of course was written before sumti raising was well
understood.  I was sensitive to the issue in the case of xlali because
"basic parenting" includes teaching the kids that "doing bad" has
consequences, but that even "good kids" sometimes "do bad".  Now it isn't
entirely clear how one would translate "good kids" in this example, but
it seems that there could be some other scale besides good/evil
involved here, in which case it would presyumably involve xamgu/xlali.

lojbab


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Message: 7
   Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:52:50 -0500
   From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le selpensi be mi

la xorxes cusku di'e:
>
> i u'i la lojban cu ba'e se pensi do i la lojban na pensi

.ie mi ta'e nalmorji le drani terbridi selporsi
.iku'ibo .a'o ka'e jimpe

> i oi ie do drani i mi troci le nu la lojban cu zenba se pilno

xu do jinvi le du'u se cumki le nu zbasu le cnino velsku be tepi'o casnu
bau la lojban. po'o?  .i le vi velsku cu simlu le ka selpilno le
jbojimpe .e ra'ucu'i le naljimpe  .i pe'i le jbojimpe ka'e zmacasnu
.iku'ibo jy. na djica le nu le velsku cu dustisna seri'a le naljimpe cu
nalgleki

to zoi .kuot. is there some way in lojban of specifying what the
indefinate article specifies in english?  i felt a little uncertain that
"le cnino velsku" would imply "_a_ new forum," etc .kuot. toi

> i ui mi go'i  i e'e ma'a ly pilno

.i .e'e mi ly. pilno .i mi morji le du'u la lojban. pu simlu le ka
duspluja kei mi .iku'ibo na ca simlu

> i xlali tcini i pe'i pu'o jamna

pe'i zo jamna na cu sopdrani valsi .i pe'i zo sfasa cu zmadrani
.i pe'a la .iunaitedsteits. cu fengu rirni po'a

> i la sadam xusein cu nitcu le te bradi le nu stali le ka jitro

ko'a goi la xusein. cu nalsarcu je xlali le rakso prenu .e le terdi
prenu  .iku'ibo pe'i le rasko prenu na fuzme le selzu'e be ko'a

ni'o .i xu ko'e goi la .iunaitedsteits. djica le nu gunta le zbasu be le
xarci be fi le raksnai? .i la'edi'u seni'i le nu ko'e ri gunta

mi'e bret.


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: le selpensi be mi
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:20:12 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le selpensi be mi

la bret cusku di'e

>xu do jinvi le du'u se cumki le nu zbasu le cnino velsku be tepi'o casnu
>bau la lojban. po'o?  .i le vi velsku cu simlu le ka selpilno le
>jbojimpe .e ra'ucu'i le naljimpe  .i pe'i le jbojimpe ka'e zmacasnu
>.iku'ibo jy. na djica le nu le velsku cu dustisna seri'a le naljimpe cu
>nalgleki

i mi na tolzau le nu zbasu lo cnino velsku i ku'i mi senpi le du'u
le nu lei jboselmri cu mo'amei cu se krinu le nu lei jbojimpe cu
clite i noda pante le nu lei lojbo cu du'emei i pe'i le krinu cu nu
rau jbopre na bredi le nu pagbu lei lojbo nuncasnu iseki'ubo
so'a le nuncasnu cu tordu gi'e se cmima repo'o prenu

>to zoi .kuot. is there some way in lojban of specifying what the
>indefinate article specifies in english?  i felt a little uncertain that
>"le cnino velsku" would imply "_a_ new forum," etc .kuot. toi

i zo lo

>.i .e'e mi ly. pilno .i mi morji le du'u la lojban. pu simlu le ka
>duspluja kei mi .iku'ibo na ca simlu

i le gerna cu sampu i nandu fa le nu selsau rau valsi
pe le nu sutra ciska ja tcidu secau le nu ru'i pilno le vlacku

>> i xlali tcini i pe'i pu'o jamna
>pe'i zo jamna na cu sopdrani valsi .i pe'i zo sfasa cu zmadrani
>.i pe'a la .iunaitedsteits. cu fengu rirni po'a

i ca se djuno fa le du'u makau ba jinga i ku'i jamna
i ju'o so'i prenu ba morsi i lo'e fengu rirni na catra
lei ri verba

>> i la sadam xusein cu nitcu le te bradi le nu stali le ka jitro
>
>ko'a goi la xusein. cu nalsarcu je xlali le rakso prenu .e le terdi
>prenu  .iku'ibo pe'i le rasko prenu na fuzme le selzu'e be ko'a


i ie go'i i ku'i so'e raksypre cu sarji la xusein i du'e prenu cu prami
le ri natmi secau le nu racli i lei rakso na nelci le nu le mergu'e
a lei jorne natmi cu minde le rakso ralju

>ni'o .i xu ko'e goi la .iunaitedsteits. djica le nu gunta le zbasu be le
>xarci be fi le raksnai? .i la'edi'u seni'i le nu ko'e ri gunta

i ko'e djica la'e di'u e lo drata i mu'a le nu jarco le nu makau minde

co'o mi'e xorxes




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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Universal Networking Language
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      2. Please ignore posting "Universal Networking Language"
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:32:04 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Universal Networking Language

The Web site is http://www.unl.ias.unu.edu .  The "UNL page" is a dummy,
so stick to the "English page".

Here is the nearest thing to a detailed description available to
the public (looks like a translation from the Japanese):

# UNL represents information expressed in sentence as a set of relations
# between meanings expressed by words.  Vocabulary of UNL consists of;
#       - UW (Universal Word), that represents a word meaning
#       - Relation label, that represents a relationship between UWs
#       - Attribute label, that expresses further definition or
#       additional information of UW which appears in sentence.

# A UW represents meanings a word express by an English word which can
# express those meanings with a suffix of possible relationship with
# other words which denote the specific meaning.

# UW is a word that makes up UNL, and is set so as to denote a specific
# meaning. Word in English is applied as label to identify UW. A UW
# which is simply labeled with a word is regarded as to denote the whole
# meaning that the original English word can convey. In order to express
# more specific meaning, a method is introduced to limit the range of
# meaning that can be denoted by UW. UW's meaning can be limited in the
# description of distinctive relationship with other UW that can hold
# only with this specific meaning of UW.

Further details are available only to members of the UNL organization.
Sounds pretty crude and primitive compared to Lojban.

http://www.unl.ias.unu.edu/eng/brochure/b7.html gives contact info.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:33:29 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Please ignore posting "Universal Networking Language"

It was meant for lojbab only.  Sorry.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: le selpensi be mi
           From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. la cribes.
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Descriptors
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:31:11 -0500
   From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le selpensi be mi

la xorxes. cusku di'e
>
> i mi na tolzau le nu zbasu lo cnino velsku

.i da'i zbasu lo velsku pe la .iuznet. to (zoi gy. Usenet .gy.) toi
.i pe'i la .iuznet. cu zmadu levi velsku le ka frili pilno

> i pe'i le krinu cu nu rau jbopre na bredi le nu pagbu lei lojbo
> nuncasnu iseki'ubo so'a le nuncasnu cu tordu gi'e se cmima repo'o
> prenu

.i .ie mi zgana la'edi'u goi ko'i .iku'ibo mi krici le du'u ko'i bazi
binxo lo frica .i se'o mi cilre .i pe'i lo drata prenu goi ko'o ba go'i
si'a .i pe'i ma'a brebi'o ja'e le nu ko'o zatbi'o

> i zo lo

.ua .i ki'e mi jimpe

> i le gerna cu sampu i nandu fa le nu selsau rau valsi
> pe le nu sutra ciska ja tcidu secau le nu ru'i pilno le vlacku

nandu ki'u le nu loi ctuca cukta na zasti kei .e le nu ma'a na ctuca
so'i lo prenu .i .ai mi ciska je ctuca

> i ju'o so'i prenu ba morsi i lo'e fengu rirni na catra
> lei ri verba

ko'u goi la .steits. na mulno jimpe le du'u le prenu ba mrobi'o

> i lei rakso na nelci le nu le mergu'e a lei jorne natmi cu minde le
> rakso ralju

ma krinu lenu na go'i?  .i ko'u fengu fi le nu le raksnai cu zbasu lo
xukmi xarci .i ku'i ko'u zbasu le mintu xarci

mi'e bret.


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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:33:02 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: la cribes.


        I was reading the reference grammar and saw the following
example:
        "la cribe pu finti le lisri"
        Somewhere else, it's saying that names always end with a
consonant plus a "." Having that in mind, it should be something like
"la cribes."
        Should I assume "la cribe" is there just for the sake of
examplifying (and comparing it with le/lo), or is there any case when I
would use that?

        co'o mi'e guctav.
--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio M. Cabral
|  ______| ,---------------------------------------------.
| |  ____  | "Todo homem que se vende, recebe muito mais |
| | |__  | |  do que vale"                               |
| |  __| | |              Baro de Tarar                |
|_| |____| `---------------------------------------------'
            email    : g.eu@x.xx
            homepage : http://i.am/g.eu/
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \


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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:33:01 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Descriptors


        Hi all,

        Could I define the individual descriptors like the following?
        - le = one or more of those each of which a describe as X.
        - lo = one or more of those each of which really is a X.
        - la = one or more of those each of which is named X.

        co'o mi'e guctav.
--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio M. Cabral
|  ______| ,-------------------------------------------------.
| |  ____  | "Shall the knife fall on the melon or the melon |
| | |__  | |  on the knife, the melon will suffer..."        |
| |  __| | |               Chinese proverb                   |
|_| |____| `-------------------------------------------------'
            email    : g.eu@x.xx
            homepage : http://i.am/g.eu/
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Descriptors
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: Descriptors
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. ADMIN: Reply to sender
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:22:04 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Descriptors

On: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:33:01 -0300
I wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
>       Could I define the individual descriptors like the following?
>       - le = one or more of those each of which a describe as X.
>       - lo = one or more of those each of which really is a X.
>       - la = one or more of those each of which is named X.

        I received a private reply confirming the above as valid. So, I
ask now: Is the following also right?

        -lei = a part or the whole of a mass of those I describe as X
        -loi = a part or the whole of a mass of those which really are X
        -lai = a part or the whole of a mass of those named X

        -le'i = the set of those I describe as X
        -lo'i = the set of those which really are X
        -la'i = the set of those named X

        My doubts in these cases rely on "lei/le'i". The Reference
Grammar defines them as:
        - lei => "... a mass I describe as ..."
          instead of: "... a mass OF THOSE I describe as ..."
        - le'i=> "... a set described as ..."
          instead of: "... a set OF THOSE I describe as ..."
        I know this difference may sound insignificant, but, since
Lojban is a so "thorough" language, I thought this could make some
difference.

        co'o mi'e guctav.
--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio (g.eu@x.xxx
|  ______|  Homepage: http://i.am/g.eu/
| |  ____  .-------------------------------.
| | |__  | | "Minha lngua  minha Ptria" |
| |  __| | |  Fernando Pessoa              |
|_| |____| |_______________________________|
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \



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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:44:22 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Descriptors

On: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:06:54 -0300
Pablo Stafforini wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
> Check the chapter 6 of "The complete Lojban Languaje" (it is available
> online, in case you don't have the book).

        Thanks for the tip. I already knew it, anyway, and I'm taking my
references from there.
        I understood the meanings. What I'm trying to make is to
"paternize" the descriptions, so I can remember them easier later. It's
better, visually.
        Thanks for the explanations too.

        By the way, list-owners, please set the list to "reply-to-list",
I'm receiving private mails which (I'm sure) were meant to be sent to
the list. Go to the "Manage List" screen, then "Change list properties"
and then look for "Replies to list messages are sent to".
        Regards,
--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio (g.eu@x.xxx
|  ______|  Homepage: http://i.am/g.eu/
| |  ____  .-----------------------------.
| | |__  | | "Mi pensas, do mi ekzistas" |
| |  __| | |  Ren Descartes             |
|_| |____| |_____________________________|
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \



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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:28:51 -0500 (EST)
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: ADMIN: Reply to sender

Gustavo Eulalio scripsit:

>       By the way, list-owners, please set the list to "reply-to-list",
> I'm receiving private mails which (I'm sure) were meant to be sent to
> the list.

Lojban List has always been "reply to sender" by default, which is the
style I prefer for several reasons:

        1) "Reply to list" default makes it awkward to reply privately
        when that is what you want

        2) Replies that should be private end up getting publicized
        in error;

        3) Replying to the list requires a little extra reflection,
        which is as it should be.

--
John Cowan                                      cowan@xxxx.xxx
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Descriptors
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: ADMIN: Reply to sender
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:01:52 +0200 (EET)
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Descriptors



On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Gustavo Eulalio wrote:
> On: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:33:01 -0300
> I wrote:
> =---------=---------=---------=---------=
> >     Could I define the individual descriptors like the following?
> >     - le = one or more of those each of which a describe as X.
> >     - lo = one or more of those each of which really is a X.
> >     - la = one or more of those each of which is named X.

Yes, but the distinction between them is pretty subtle and controversial,
as previous discussions on the list show.  The thing to be carfeul about
is using 'le' and 'lo' as substitutes for whatever the definite and
indefinite articles in your native language are (e.g. 'the' and 'a' in
English).  Sometimes they're the same, sometimes they aren't.  My advice
is "when in doubt, use 'le'."

 > >    I received a private reply confirming the above as valid.
So, I > ask now: Is the following also right?
>
>       -lei = a part or the whole of a mass of those I describe as X
>       -loi = a part or the whole of a mass of those which really are X
>       -lai = a part or the whole of a mass of those named X
>
>       -le'i = the set of those I describe as X
>       -lo'i = the set of those which really are X
>       -la'i = the set of those named X
>
>       My doubts in these cases rely on "lei/le'i". The Reference
> Grammar defines them as:
>       - lei => "... a mass I describe as ..."
>         instead of: "... a mass OF THOSE I describe as ..."
>       - le'i=> "... a set described as ..."
>         instead of: "... a set OF THOSE I describe as ..."
>       I know this difference may sound insignificant, but, since
> Lojban is a so "thorough" language, I thought this could make some
> difference.

You're right, it ought to make a difference.  My interpretion would be:

le ci gerku cu bajra
Three things which I term 'dogs' run, but not necessarily in the same
direction, or even in the same place or at the same time.

lei ci gerku cu bajra
the mass of three things which I term 'dogs' run together

le'i ci gerku cu bajra [?]
a set I have defined as three dogs, runs [?]


the weirdness of the last example can be taken as implying that le'i/lo'i
only has much practical use when talking about the properties of sets e.g.

le'i gerku cu bajra

would mean that if something is a member of the set I term 'dogs', it
runs.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:14:35 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Reply to sender

On: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:28:51 -0500 (EST)
John Cowan wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
> Lojban List has always been "reply to sender" by default, which is the
> style I prefer for several reasons:
        [snip reasons]

        Ok, now I understand it. I was hurried to ask that, because the
replies I received (2) were private (and apparently meant to the list),
including one from an usual poster to the Lojban list. So, I thought
these people were used to reply-to-list, and had been misled then.
        Sorry for all, I'll pay more attention from now on.

--
Gustavo Eulalio
guga@xxxxx.xxx.xx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Descriptors
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:42:39 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Descriptors

>>       My doubts in these cases rely on "lei/le'i". The Reference
>> Grammar defines them as:
>>       - lei => "... a mass I describe as ..."
>>         instead of: "... a mass OF THOSE I describe as ..."
>>       - le'i=> "... a set described as ..."
>>         instead of: "... a set OF THOSE I describe as ..."
>>       I know this difference may sound insignificant, but, since
>> Lojban is a so "thorough" language, I thought this could make some
>> difference.
>
>You're right, it ought to make a difference.  My interpretion would be:
>
>le ci gerku cu bajra
>Three things which I term 'dogs' run, but not necessarily in the same
>direction, or even in the same place or at the same time.
>
>lei ci gerku cu bajra
>the mass of three things which I term 'dogs' run together
>
>le'i ci gerku cu bajra [?]
>a set I have defined as three dogs, runs [?]


Seeing Robin's answer, I think I understand the question better.
The reference grammar wording is better than the suggested alternative,
and there is indeed a difference.

In the "lei" example there is a set with 3 members that is being
massified.  The set is identified by having its elements described as dogs.
There is no indication that the set is a complete set of all things that
the speaker describes as dogs.  Likewise for le'i, the set may not include
all that the speaker would so describe.

A complete wording would then be

a set/mass (as appropriate) I have in mind whose members/components I
describe as

But I think that this wording would be confusing to many people without
explanation, and would also be too long for a tabular listing.

The key difference is that if you say "ro lei" or ro le'i" you are
not implicitly talking about all that you could describe, but only the
specific in-mind set.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Descriptors
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: Descriptors
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: zo go'i
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Lojban Tapes update...
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:07:05 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: Descriptors

On: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 09:42:39 -0500 (EST)
Logical Language Group wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
> Seeing Robin's answer, I think I understand the question better.
> The reference grammar wording is better than the suggested alternative,
> and there is indeed a difference.
>
> In the "lei" example there is a set with 3 members that is being
> massified.  The set is identified by having its elements described as dogs.
> There is no indication that the set is a complete set of all things that
> the speaker describes as dogs.  Likewise for le'i, the set may not include
> all that the speaker would so describe.
>
> A complete wording would then be
>
> a set/mass (as appropriate) I have in mind whose members/components I
> describe as

        I guess you didn't get it yet, Bob. Your wording contradicts the
book's one. Maybe I can explain my doubt better with an example.
        If I say "lei prenu", will I be calling the mass "the persons"
or "the crowd"? If I have understood it correctly, it is "the crowd",
and "lei" will then mean "... a mass of those I describe as... ", or, as
you say, "... a mass whose components I describe as ..."

        co'o mi'e guctav.
--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio (g.eu@x.xxx
|  ______|  Homepage: http://i.am/g.eu/
| |  ____  .-------------------------------.
| | |__  | | "Minha lngua  minha Ptria" |
| |  __| | |  Fernando Pessoa              |
|_| |____| |_______________________________|
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \



_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:01:27 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Descriptors

la guctav cusku di'e

>> - le = one or more of those each of which a describe as X.
>> - lo = one or more of those each of which really is a X.
>> - la = one or more of those each of which is named X.
>
> I received a private reply confirming the above as valid.

It is not completely valid. It is for {lo}, but not exactly for {le} and
{la}.

{le mlatu} is "each one of those I describe as a cat (in this context)",
not just one or more of them. For example, {mi viska le mlatu}
mens "I see each of the cats", and not "I see at least one of the cats".

Remember that {le mlatu} is by definition equivalent to
{ro le su'o mlatu}, and {lo mlatu} is by definition {su'o lo ro mlatu}.

>So, I
>ask now: Is the following also right?
>
> -lei = a part or the whole of a mass of those I describe as X
> -loi = a part or the whole of a mass of those which really are X
> -lai = a part or the whole of a mass of those named X

That is what the book says, but I use {lei} in the same way as {le},
i.e. for the whole mass, and not for "a part or the whole". For example,
I would not say {lei cukta cu grake li ciki'o} = "the books weigh 3 kg" if
only part of the books weighed that. To me that means that the whole
mass of books weighs 3 kg.

> -le'i = the set of those I describe as X
> -lo'i = the set of those which really are X
> -la'i = the set of those named X

Yes, although my recomendation is never to use them. If these are
supposed to be mathematical sets, they don't have much use in ordinary
language. Even in places where they are apparently needed, it is not
clear to me why they would be better than masses. For example:

        mi cuxna lo creka lei nenri be le dacru
        I choose a shirt from among the ones inside the drawer.

        mi cuxna lo creka le'i nenri be le dacru
        I choose a shirt from the set of ones inside the drawer.

Is the second expression in any way clearer than the first?
Does it add anything? I don't see the point of having the set articles.

> My doubts in these cases rely on "lei/le'i". The Reference
>Grammar defines them as:
> - lei => "... a mass I describe as ..."
>   instead of: "... a mass OF THOSE I describe as ..."
> - le'i=> "... a set described as ..."
>   instead of: "... a set OF THOSE I describe as ..."
> I know this difference may sound insignificant, but, since
>Lojban is a so "thorough" language, I thought this could make some
>difference.


You're absolutely right. {lei mlatu} is a mass of those I describe as cats,
not a mass that I describe as a cat.

co'o mi'e xorxes



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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:16:29 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: zo go'i

la djan maynat cusku di'e

>    "You are not lying to me now, I do not think," he said at last.
>    "No, I am not lying to you now," Nieh agreed.
>
>i sei ko'e cusku ba la denpa se'u ia do na'e ca ticysku mi .i sei ko'a
tugni
>cusku se'u go'i
>
>But: as do'i repeats the previous sentence, would this be the same as:
>
>i sei ko'e cusku ba la denpa se'u do na'e ca ticysku mi .i sei ko'a tugni
>cusku se'u do na'e ca ticysku mi

No, your first sentence is correct. {go'i} does not repeat the words of
the previous sentence. It repeats its meaning. To repeat with new values
for the pronouns you have to say {go'ira'o} e.g.:

A: mi prami do
B: go'ira'o

>Am I
>correct in thinking that go'i, here, would express the event of {Nieh
>Ho-T'ing lies to Su Shun-Ch'in now}, no matter who is speaking it?
>Therefore, the first sentence would actually be equivalent to:
>
>i sei ko'e cusku ba la denpa se'u do na'e ca ticysku mi .i sei ko'a tugni
>cusku se'u mi na'e ca ticysku do
>
>Is my reasoning correct here?

It is correct. See pages 155/156 of the book.

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:14:20 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Lojban Tapes update...

The recordings of the lojban words for the language tapes are about 10%
done, and I have posted the recordings on my website.  I don't expect a
whole lot of "getting things done" to occur during the holiday season,
but would like to complete the full set of recordings before the end of
January.

I would very much like for a few experienced lojbanists to review the 40
words that I do have recorded for the tapes and send me feedback for
them.  In fact, I don't believe that I will be able to justify further
progress on them without this input.  I'm looking for any comments at
all, including a simple "sounds fine to me."  I'm personally curious
what people think of the person's vocal characteristics, and if anyone
thinks that it matters.

 The web site is:

http://home.earthlink.net/~kingcats/lojban.html

The main site is, of course, index.html, but I haven't set up the
network of "click here to return to the main page" tags to allow
backward access.

Many thanks,

Robert Rapplean
kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxx



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. [Fwd: UNL, Lojban and MLHT]
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      2. [Fwd: zo go'i]
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      3. On the web site question:
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. UNL, Lojban and MLHT
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      5. On the web site question:
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:01:25 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxx>
Subject: [Fwd: UNL, Lojban and MLHT]

Forwarded for Hartmut Pilch, who's having trouble sending
to Lojban List.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:02:23 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: [Fwd: zo go'i]

Apparently sent in error to me instead of the list, since it
is headed "coi rodo".

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 22:46:04 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: On the web site question:

In case this hadn't occured to anyone yet, there is another important
point to consider about whether or not the LLG should get its own
domain.  Many of the search engines (most pointedly Webcrawler and
Yahoo) will only accept a certain number of page submissions from each
domain.  this means that anything that is submitted as being from one of
the web communities (Geocities, Tripod, etc) or major providers
(earthlink, worldnet, et al) will probably not make it onto the listings
reguardless.  You probably aren't effected by that on the helsinki site,
but if you're going to move, it's something to consider.

co'o

rab.



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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:19:21 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: UNL, Lojban and MLHT


>On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, John Cowan wrote:
>
>> Sounds pretty crude and primitive compared to Lojban.
>
>Why not outperform the UNL vaporware then?
>Could a Lojban parser output intelligible English some day?

The glosser that nora has been working on will output somewhat
intelligible English, and it is hardly as sophisticated as anyuthing
the UNL people are contemplating.  The problem is not the Lojban
so much as it is making the English intelligible.

No doubt an approach similar to whjat you describe of converting parse to
Prolog to Lisp to English would be more effective than what Nora is
doing, but Nora's solution is easy (if she only had time to work on it)


A good glosser is a useful learning tool.  A good translator would also be
good.  But the main thing needed to make either very useful is some kind
of AI based error correction - something that couild look at a bad parse and
figure out what was likely to be wrong (a missing "cu", two selbri in the
bridi, etc.) and perhaps even suggest the corrections.

Right now if a user makes an error that leads to non parsing the glosser
cannot do anything with it, which in turn means that the user/learner has
very little clue as to what was wrong.  The YACC-based diagnostic that
the parser puts out is useful only to those really aware of how a YACC parser
works, and then only sometimes.

lojbab


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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 02:13:20 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: On the web site question:

The decision has been (informally) made by the LLG Board to try to
get lojban.org

I will be negotiating with an ISP this week, and hopefully will have a
new email address for Lojban Central before the Digex account disappears
at the end of this week.

If I understand the option correctly, I will have a separate email address
from the official LLG address.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


_______________________________________________________________________________
