_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. X-files
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: X-files
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: UNL, Lojban and MLHT
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
      4. Re: X-files
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: X-files
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:26:51 +0200 (EET)
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: X-files

A question about pronunciation (pretty academic since 99% of Lojban
communication is printed, but I do like to mutter Lojban to myself
occasionally!).

The Book gives a range of acceptable variants for several Lojban sounds,
which I think is admirable, but only one pronunciation for "x".  Apart
from the fact that some people find /x/ (as in Bach) unaesthetic, it's
also difficult for speakers of some languages to spit out (especially if
it is an initial consonant, and especially you have a sore throat).
Would the following alternatives be acceptable?

1.  A softer "ch" as in German "welchen";
2.  A very breathy "h" as in Mandarin Chinese "Hobei";
3.  A throaty "kh" as in, if I remember rightly, Arabic "Khaled".

(sorry, it's so long since I studied phonetics, I can't remember the
correct terminology).

Such alternatives would, I think, ease pronunciation for people who don't
speak German/Arabic/Klingon.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:33:27 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: X-files

While the book lists only one IPA symbol corresponding to x, the
description given is "unvoiced velar fricative".  If there are other sounds
besides German "Bach" that meet this description, they could also be used.

Themorphology rules for x presume that it is unvoiced, so a voiced velar
fricative could cause problems (e.g. the q in Moammar Qaddafi).  having the
frciative further back in the throat as in Arabic glottals might or might
not work - I cannot say since I can't make the sounds.

Probably both the German sounds in "ich" and "ach" would work.  I am not sure
that either of them is described with a different symbol from /x/.

lojbab


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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:16:21 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: UNL, Lojban and MLHT

> >Could a Lojban parser output intelligible English some day?
>
> No doubt an approach similar to whjat you describe of converting parse to
> Prolog to Lisp to English would be more effective than what Nora is
> doing, but Nora's solution is easy (if she only had time to work on it)

I would find time to work on a lojlisp2english program.  Also, I suspect
it's more easy to do than what Nora seems to be attempting, if only I have
a Lisp representation of the parsing result available.

> A good glosser is a useful learning tool.  A good translator would also be
> good.  But the main thing needed to make either very useful is some kind
> of AI based error correction - something that couild look at a bad parse and
> figure out what was likely to be wrong (a missing "cu", two selbri in the
> bridi, etc.) and perhaps even suggest the corrections.

That again is a very difficult tenth step
The first step is done (John Cowan's parser).
I only need a commandline switch that will output the
parsing result in Lisp (foo bar baz) notation.

The second step is a lojlisp2english converter that will allow people to
read existing correctly written lojban texts in [Logician's] English and,
by comparing with the original and the lojlisp version, understand the
original structure without having to look up every word.

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/






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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:22:56 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: X-files

PILCH Hartmut wrote:

> > Probably both the German sounds in "ich" and "ach" would work.  I am not sure
> > that either of them is described with a different symbol from /x/.
>
> these are contextual allophones: the palatalized one after front (e i \"a
> \"o \"u) vowels, as in "ich", the non-palatalized one after back (a o u)
> vowels, as in "Bach".
>
> In Modern Greek it works the opposite way: palatalized *before* front
> vowels (as in "oxi"  for "no"), non-palatalized *before* back vowels (as
> in "mixaniki" for "mechanics").
>
> For a conlang, one of these two distributions would have to be chosen.
> I'd prefer to avoid the choice and use only a non-palatalized x.
>

I would have thought that we could just as easily leave it up to the speaker.  I
palatalise all the time, simply because I prefer the sound.

co'o mi'e robin.






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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 20:45:50 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: X-files

> > For a conlang, one of these two distributions would have to be chosen.
> > I'd prefer to avoid the choice and use only a non-palatalized /x/.
> >
>
> I would have thought that we could just as easily leave it up to the speaker.  I
> palatalise all the time, simply because I prefer the sound.

in all languages I know of that have the allophony between palatal and
non-palatal velars, non-palatization is the default variant and
palatalization is brought about only by the proximity of /i/ or other
front vowels.  Usually (in Greek, slavic languages, Chinese, Japanese) it
is the subsequent vowel that brings about this change.  It would thus be
fair to see the palatized /x/ as a composite sound, consisting of the
non-palatized plus an /i/ feature.  you could also call it a sandhi form,
an interim stage in the disintegration of phonemic systems that often
occurs in language history.

leaving things up to the speaker can easily mean leaving them to the
prisoner's dilemma or some other ineluctable mechanism.  At least a
mechanism that will never produce a logical language.

co'o mi'e pilxartmut

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/





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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Intro
           From: Andreia Gaita <shana@xxxxxxxx.xxx
      2. Lojban Central address is moving
           From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:14:45 +0000
   From: Andreia Gaita <shana@xxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Intro

Hi everyone

My name is Andreia, I'm 22, from Portugal. Just stumbled onto Lojban while looking for online language courses... I rather like the Sapir-Whorf theory, even before I knew its name, so I'm just itching to learn Lojban... besides, I love learning languages.

Anyway, I don't have the book yet (and probably won't have for a while... $$$), but I do have the grammar. Stupid questions are on the way, so bear with me. :)

BTW, does anyone use web phone software (like NetCom) to talk to others in Lojban?

"We're plain lost, Mr Frodo!"
Sam Gamgee "last and least of the Ring-Bearers"
Tolkien - Lord of The Rings

----
AvG
Developer and otherwise computer nut


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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:55:39 -0500 (EST)
   From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Lojban Central address is moving


I am in the process of moving the Lojban Central dialup account to its new
home.

That new home will be lojban@xxxxxx.xxx for LLG business, and
lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx for mail to me personally.

the lojban.org regsitration is not yet completed, so you probably cannot
yet send to the new addresses.  They are saying 24-72 hours.

because my access to the digex account may go away as early as midnite
local time Saturday nite, messages sent to this address in the next couple
of days may not immediately be read, but I am hoping to have forwarding
turned on before then.  Hopefully there will be no bounces.

The Lojban Web page currently on Digex will also move to www.lojban.org,
and we will announce when this is available.  Veijo's Finland site
and Hezekiah's site will hopefully be updated quickly after the new site
is running.  We will have up to 50 Meg of space n the new site, so we may s
start adding new material in the next few months.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: ftp.access.digex.net /pub/access/lojbab
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"
    Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Intro
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: Intro
           From: Andreia Gaita <shana@xxxxxxxx.xxx
      3. Re: Intro
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: Intro
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      5. (no subject)
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 22:09:32 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: Intro

la andreas.gaitas. cusku di'e

>
> Hi everyone
>
> My name is Andreia, I'm 22, from Portugal. Just stumbled onto Lojban while looking for online language courses... I rather like the Sapir-Whorf theory, even before I knew its name, so I'm just itching to learn Lojban... besides, I love learning languages.
>

coi andreas.  ao mia pendyrai do .i ao do ba lifri lenu do gleki je frili cilre la lojban. ru'a do du le pamoi porto lojbo
hello Andrea [hope] we make-feel-welcome you. [hope] you [future]experience the-event you happy and easy learn Lojban. [I postulate]  you are the first Portuguese Lojbanist

>
> Anyway, I don't have the book yet (and probably won't have for a while... $$$), but I do have the grammar.

Well, the online reference grammar is pretty much the same as the book.  You might be better off starting with the draft textbook, which is also available from the Lojban website - I would advise doing at least the first ten lessons from the textbook, then
going to whichever parts of the grammar interest you most.  Don't feel you have to read the grammar in whole chapters - I tend to read the parts of a chapter that are most basic first, then go back for more advanced stuff later (which is why my own grammar is
a little, er, strange sometimes).

The nice thing about Lojban grammar is that you can use as little or as much of it as you like.  For example, I can simply say

mi bajra
I run/ran/will run/am running

or

mi pu bajra
I ran

or even

mi puzu ze'a di'i bajra
A long time ago, for a while, I ran regularly.

> Stupid questions are on the way, so bear with me. :)
>

mi'a nelci le prenu poi preti le bebna preti ku mu'i lenu lenu danfu le bebna preti ku cu sidju ma'a lenu xamjimpe le bangu
we like (the person who ask the silly question) with-motivation {the-event-of (the-event-of answer the silly question) help we-and-you (the-event-of well-understand the language)}

Now everyone else rip my grammar to shreds! ;-)

co'o mi'e robin.




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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:40:34 +0000
   From: Andreia Gaita <shana@xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Intro

>Well, the online reference grammar is pretty much the same as the book.
You might be better off starting with the draft textbook, which is also
available from the Lojban website - I would advise doing at least the first
ten lessons from the textbook, then
>going to whichever parts of the grammar interest you most.  Don't feel you
have to read the grammar in whole chapters - I tend to read the parts of a
chapter that are most basic first, then go back for more advanced stuff
later (which is why my own grammar is
>a little, er, strange sometimes).
>
>The nice thing about Lojban grammar is that you can use as little or as
much of it as you like.  For example, I can simply say
>
>mi bajra
>I run/ran/will run/am running
>
>or
>
>mi pu bajra
>I ran
>
>or even
>
>mi puzu ze'a di'i bajra
>A long time ago, for a while, I ran regularly.

Ok, you've just answered one of my questions... (is it necessary to fill in
all the spaces of a sentence...)
Since I'm not a linguist (just a lowly programmer), my mother tongue is not
english and my portuguese classes on sentence structure and the likes are
long gone (as are the english ones), I'm having some difficulty getting a
grasp of the thing. But I'll get there... 8-)
Anyway, one of the problems I'm having is figuring out how to speak. The
sound descriptions for the letters are fine, but they are for an english
audience, and portuguese sounds are completely different.
For example, the 'x' in portuguese has the same sound as the 'sh' in
'shock'. The vowels in portuguese are all open. And how does one say the '?
With an english 'h'? Or can it be anything?
Oh, yes, and the 'd'? In portuguese the 'd' has the same sound as in
"don't". Is it the same?

If anyone here knows french or spanish or german or italian, I'd appreciate
it if you could enlighten me on the pronunciation of the letters compared
to one of these languages... :-)

Thanx for the welcome! I'll just go now and translate everything. 8-)

"We're plain lost, Mr Frodo!"
Sam Gamgee "last and least of the Ring-Bearers"
Tolkien - Lord of The Rings

----
AvG
Developer and otherwise computer nut


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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 19:13:38 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Intro


        coi rodo

        I hope everybody here forgive me for writing the rest of this
e-mail in Portugese, but, as the question begs a Portugese knowledge, I
think it would be more logical (and easier to the interested ones).

        Oi Andria,

        Sou brasileiro, e comecei a estudar Lojban h algum tempo (no
muito), e ainda tenho certa dificuldade. Talvez possamos estudar juntos.
         uma satisfao t-la aqui, conosco.


On: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:40:34 +0000
Andreia Gaita wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
> Anyway, one of the problems I'm having is figuring out how to speak. The
> sound descriptions for the letters are fine, but they are for an english
> audience, and portuguese sounds are completely different.
> For example, the 'x' in portuguese has the same sound as the 'sh' in
> 'shock'. The vowels in portuguese are all open. And how does one say the '?
> With an english 'h'? Or can it be anything?
> Oh, yes, and the 'd'? In portuguese the 'd' has the same sound as in
> "don't". Is it the same?

        Primeiro, vou explicar a diagramao que vou usar:
        [letra de Lojban] -- som equivalente no portugus

        Vamos l. Primeiro, as vogais:
        [a] -- a
        [e] -- , 
        [i] -- i
        [o] -- , 
        [u] -- u

        Agora, as consoantes:
        ['] -- h (do ingls)
        [.] -- no h este som no portugus.  um "cliquezinho" que voc
                faz no fundo da garganta. No sei se a gramtica explica
                assim, mas (como vi explicado em outros lugares) dizem
                que  o som que se faz no "oh-oh".
        [b, d, f, j, k, l, m, n, p, t, v, z] -- pronunciam-se exatamente
                como suas equivalentes no portugus.
        [c] -- x, ch
        [g] -- sempre o som forte, como em "gato", nunca como em "gia".
        [r] -- r, rr (tremido -- nunca como o H do ingls, como se
                pronuncia no Brasil), ou o R do ingls.
        [s] -- ss
        [x] -- j (do espanhol), ch (do alemo), no h som
                correspondente no portugus.
        [y] --  (breve) -- no tenho certeza --  o som que, nos guias
                de pronncias de dicionrios portugus-ingls escreve-se
                como um "e" de cabea pra baixo e virado pra trs.

        Espero ter ajudado.
        Abraos.
        co'o mi'e guctav.
--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio (g.eu@x.xxx
|  ______|  Homepage: http://i.am/g.eu/
| |  ____  .-------------------------------.
| | |__  | | "Minha lngua  minha Ptria" |
| |  __| | |  Fernando Pessoa              |
|_| |____| |_______________________________|
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \



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Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 02:01:16 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Intro

> coi andreas.  ao mia pendyrai do .i ao do ba lifri lenu do gleki je frili cilre la lojban. ru'a do du le pamoi porto lojbo

I have a lot of trouble with the 8-bit characters that must have been meant
to be apostrophes.

would using 'h' for the apostrophe be acceptable?
e.g. aho miha pendyrai do

I use it for Lojbanic naming in semantic systems of computer programs and
HTML pages.  Non-ascii characters are unacceptable there.

If there was a parser that could analyse such names for non-Lojbanists,
Lojban might find a way into some public software projects.  But the
apostrophe is a stumbling block.

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/






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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 00:32:42 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: (no subject)

Assuming that this message goes out, "Lojban Central" will be officially
moved to lojban@xxxxxx.xxx
Mail intended for me (lojbab) should go to lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx which is the
address I will be using for Lojban List.
Obviously, we'll forgive you if you make a typo, and I'll likely see it in
either case.

John Cowan will still announce when the master archive website has been
moved to www.lojban.org, hopefully within a couple of days.



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There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. .y'y
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      2. Re: .y'y
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: .y'y
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:44:51 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: .y'y

> > coi andreas.  ao mia pendyrai do .i ao do ba lifri lenu do gleki je frili cilre la lojban. ru'a do du le pamoi porto lojbo
>
> I have a lot of trouble with the 8-bit characters that must have been meant
> to be apostrophes.
>
> would using 'h' for the apostrophe be acceptable?
> e.g. aho miha pendyrai do
>
> I use it for Lojbanic naming in semantic systems of computer programs and
> HTML pages.  Non-ascii characters are unacceptable there.
               ^^^^^^^^^
mi pu djica nu cusku zoi dy. non-alphanumeric .dy
I meant "non-alphameric".

co'o mi'e pilxartmut.
http://www.a2e.de/phm/





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Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:09:15 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: .y'y

> > > coi andreas. ao mia pendyrai do .i ao do ba lifri lenu do gleki je frili cilre la lojban. ru'a do du le pamoi porto lojbo
> >

> > I have a lot of trouble with the 8-bit characters that must have been meant
> > to be apostrophes.

I'm getting a character code of 145 off of that.  Shame on you, Robin!  What's the point of promoting high universalness in your
character set if you use non-standard characters to represent them?

> > would using 'h' for the apostrophe be acceptable?
> > e.g. aho miha pendyrai do
> >
> > I use it for Lojbanic naming in semantic systems of computer programs and
> > HTML pages.  Non-ascii characters are unacceptable there.
>                ^^^^^^^^^
> mi pu djica nu cusku zoi dy. non-alphanumeric .dy
> I meant "non-alphameric".

Glad you clairified that.  HTML pages should have no problem with the apostrophe, but I agree with the names in computer programs.
I've been naming my procedures in code I write at home in Lojban (just for fun), and for that purpose I've just been dropping the
apostrophe.  The contention there is that I'm the only one who's going to read it anyway, so it wouldn't matter.

If I were to do this for a more general purpose, though, I would need to include something there for clarity.  Since the 'h' is used
for a capitol apostrophe anyway, I can't imagine that anyone would have a problem with it for those purposes either.

co'o

 -- rab.



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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:50:52 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: .y'y

> HTML pages should have no problem with the apostrophe, but I agree with
> the names in computer programs.

Would something like

<a name="selma'o" href="#di'e">le mi selma'o</a>

be HTML-conformant?

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/






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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. From AUXLANG
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: Intro
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:16:08 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: From AUXLANG

Extracts from a couple of my responses to postings on the AUXLANG
list - any comments?

>
> *   This attempt to specify meanings to the n-th degree is one
feature that
> makes Lojban hard for humans to use.  Our mental apparatus is not
designed
> to recognise - at conversational pace - all of the distinctions in
meaning
> that Lojban offers.
>     IF, and I only say "if", language is supposed to echo human
thought,
> then I believe that the way Glosa realises the fuzziness in
thinking is
> closer to the neuro-linguistic truth than is the precision of
Lojban.

Quite possibly - I don't know enough about Glosa to judge.  The
principle in
Lojban is that you can be as precise _or vague_ as you want to be.
I admit that
Lojban is harder to learn than most constructed languages, but it's
still easier
than most natlangs.  I'm not sure how easy or difficult Lojban would
be to process
at a conversational speed, since I only ever communicate in Lojban
by e-mail.
What I imagine is that in conversation people would tend to ignore
those features
of Lojban which enhance precision, and utilise those which ease
communication
(e.g. the attitudinal indicators).

--------------------------------------

> To me, Lojban is more of a lawyer's recipe for quibbling
>   whereas Glosa is the nice simple list of labels.
>

.oi zo'ope'i ganai la lojban ba ve tavla gi le flasmuni co'u jerna
[ouch!] [humour-opinion] if Lojban [future] be-spoken the
law-interpreter cease
earn-money

----------------------------------

ta'o Does Lojban have any other word for lawyer?

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:15:33 -0500 (EST)
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Intro

Gustavo Eulalio scripsit:

>       [y] --  (breve) -- no tenho certeza --  o som que, nos guias
>               de pronncias de dicionrios portugus-ingls escreve-se
>               como um "e" de cabea pra baixo e virado pra trs.

If I remember correctly, Lojban "y" appears in Portuguese as unstressed
"a".

--
John Cowan                                      cowan@xxxx.xxx
                e'osai ko sarji la lojban.


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Intro
           From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Fwd: Using cats for practice
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: Fwd: Using cats for practice
           From: "Erik W. Cornilsen" <thanatos@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: Fwd: Using cats for practice
           From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:07:31 -0300
   From: Gustavo Eulalio <guga@xxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Intro

On: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:15:33 -0500 (EST)
John Cowan wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
> Gustavo Eulalio scripsit:
>
> >     [y] --  (breve) -- no tenho certeza --  o som que, nos guias
> >             de pronncias de dicionrios portugus-ingls escreve-se
> >             como um "e" de cabea pra baixo e virado pra trs.
>
> If I remember correctly, Lojban "y" appears in Portuguese as unstressed
> "a".

        You're right. I see it now, looking at a pronounciation guide
here. I beleive this sound is more common in the Portugal's Portugese.
I don't hear much the schwa sound in my variety of the language.

--
 ________   Gustavo Eulalio (g.eu@x.xxx
|  ______|  Homepage: http://i.am/g.eu/
| |  ____  .-------------------------------.
| | |__  | | "Minha lngua  minha Ptria" |
| |  __| | |  Fernando Pessoa              |
|_| |____| |_______________________________|
/"\
\ /  CAMPANHA DA FITA ASCII - CONTRA MAIL HTML
 X   ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN - AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \



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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:39:54 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Fwd: Using cats for practice

This suggestion appeared on conlang list, and seem VERY useful for
Lojbanists, who seldom have a chance to talk to other Lojbanists in
real-time.  Reposted without permission.

>From: James Campbell <james@xxxxxx.xxxxxx.xx.xx>

>I am coming to the opinion that a good way to practise speaking one's
>conlang is to use it when talking to the cat. Such conversations have a
>number of benefits:
>
>* It is essentially one-sided, so there is no need to spend time trying
>  to work out what the other person is saying; this gives more time to
>  concentrate on getting the right case, word order, etc for one's own
>  next sentence. Cat speech, while somewhat ambiguous (see Conlang
>  passim) is easy to parse.
>
>* The cat doesn't mind how long it takes to formulate each sentence.
>
>* Nor does it care what language you speak in (unlike humans, who are
>  wont to react unreliably in response to anything 'foreign').
>
>* One finds the flaws in a language when speaking it - what bits are
>  nigh-on impossible to work out on the fly, what sound combinations are
>  just too difficult, where elision would naturally occur - and such
>  experimentation is of no consequence to a cat, who won't be keeping
>  track of changes.

Feel free to amend this to include any other pet, (including a "pet rock"
if necessary) %^)

lojbab


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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:39:15 -0700
   From: "Erik W. Cornilsen" <thanatos@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Fwd: Using cats for practice

>From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
>
>This suggestion appeared on conlang list, and seem VERY useful for
>Lojbanists, who seldom have a chance to talk to other Lojbanists in
>real-time

Oh, I've already been singing to my cat.

ko sipna doi pe mi cmalu mlatu

Although talking works well too.

do djica ma .i do cmoni fi ma .i do pu citka .i xu do na djica lenu do
citka ledo cidja .i do mlatu .i ti mlatu cidja .i le mlatu cu citka le
mlatu cidja .i ko citka .i ko na catlu mi

Humorously, of course. :)

--
Erik W. Cornilsen
thanatos@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
.ie doi mlatu mi klama




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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 17:44:33 -0500
   From: SwiftRain <swiftrain@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Fwd: Using cats for practice

Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:
>
> This suggestion appeared on conlang list, and seem VERY useful for
> Lojbanists, who seldom have a chance to talk to other Lojbanists in
> real-time.

.i mi mi ta'e tavla fo la lojban. ca le nu mi mi lumci


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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Fwd: Using cats for practice
           From: Lin Zhe Min <ljm@xxxx.xxx.xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:49:10 +0000 (GMT)
   From: Lin Zhe Min <ljm@xxxx.xxx.xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Fwd: Using cats for practice

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Erik W. Cornilsen wrote:
> ko sipna doi pe mi cmalu mlatu
>
> do djica ma .i do cmoni fi ma .i do pu citka .i xu do na djica lenu do
> citka ledo cidja .i do mlatu .i ti mlatu cidja .i le mlatu cu citka le
> mlatu cidja .i ko citka .i ko na catlu mi

ko sipna doi pe mi barda mlatu

.i do djica ma .i do cmoni fi ma .i do djica batci mi
.i do djica batci mi le tuple .i do djica batci mi le xance
.i ko na batci mi

.i do cmoni fi ma .i do djica ma .i do djica cliva le zdani
.i do cumki cirko le pluta be le zdani .i do cumki jmive le nandu
.i do cumki kurki pensi le titla slabu zdani
.i .e'osai ko staner le zdani


.e'osai ko sarji la lojban.     ==> Ф޿yC
co'o mi'e lindjy,min.           ==> AAڬOLC
Fingerprint20 = CE32 D237 02C0 FE31 FEA9  B858 DE8F AE2D D810 F2D9


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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: .y'y
           From: Seth Golub <seth@xxxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed,  9 Dec 1998 09:55:40 -0800 (PST)
   From: Seth Golub <seth@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: .y'y


PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx> writes:

> Would something like
>
> <a name="selma'o" href="#di'e">le mi selma'o</a>
>
> be HTML-conformant?

Yes.

It's probably safe to use anything but <>"& unescaped within the quotes.

The HTML 4.0 spec doesn't restrict the name field nor define fragment
URLs except to mention that the attributes, like all attributes, are
CDATA syntax elements.



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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Declaration of Human Rights
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:51:13 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Declaration of Human Rights

If anyone fancies a big translation job to while away those long
winter evenings, how about the UN declaration of human rights?
The UN webpage features translations into a vast number of
languages, including Esperanto and Interlingua, and gives a
description of the language as well.  I must confess my Lojban
isn't up to the task yet, but it would be good publicity for the
language if we could get it on the UN site - the description they
gave of Interlingua was pretty favourable (for the Interlingua
version, go to http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/1119.htm ).

co'o mi'e robin.





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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. djetarni torselsku
           From: Steve Furlong <furlos@xxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 20:38:13 -0500
   From: Steve Furlong <furlos@xxx.xxxx
Subject: djetarni torselsku

coi rodo

.u'i mi pu ve'a tcidu lo djekarni torselsku  .i to'u mi ciska
zoi gy. A court clerk called paramedics after getting a note from
the judge saying, "Blind on the right side. May be falling. Please
call someone." When the paramedics arrived, the startled judge
explained she was referring to sagging venetian blinds. .gy. goi
ko'a  .i mi pensi ko'a xajmi rodo

co'o mi'e stivn


---------------------------

Hey, everyone.

I read a newspaper article recently. I summarize: ... I thought it
would amuse you.

Bye, Steven


---------------------------

That's what I wrote, in Lojban and English. I had wanted to make the
last sentence, "I doubt we can use this to successfully argue for
the universal use of Lojban, but I thought you would find it
amusing." but couldn't figure out the phrasing.

The "I doubt...Lojban" part is throwing me. I've got

        .a'onai mi'o pilno ko'a
        [doubt] we can use it

and

        mi'o snada darlu
        We successfully argue

but am having trouble linking them and also putting in the bit
about using Lojban. This also ignores the fact that I cheated
by using an attitudinal rather than writing "mi senpi" and
figuring out how to express what I doubt.

Suggestions, anyone?


Thanks,
Steve Furlong


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There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
      2. Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: 20 Dec 1998 22:56:38 +0000
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test


Hi everyone

I am trying to get to the bottom of the lujvo-making algorithm
described in chapter 4, section 11 of the reference manual, in
particular the test in 5) for 'tosmabru failure'.

If the candidate lujvo starts CVC CVC CVC ..., and would break into a
cmavo and a shorter brivla, I am struggling to see how it can break
other than after the first CV, leaving the shorter brivla being all
but the initial 2 letters.  In this case, the test would just be
whether the 3rd and 4th letters form an initial consonant pair, and
would not require checking of other 'joints' as described in the
document, or of the form of the trailing 'X' part of the lujvo.  (I
assume that the lujvo cannot break into 2 shorter brivla or into a
brivla with a trailing cmavo, due to stress considerations when it is
pronounced.)

Any insights would be appreciated - I'm putting together my own bit of
software to implement the algorithm to check I understand it
correctly.

Thanks
Richard

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England


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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 23:04:42 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test



>From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>
>
>If the candidate lujvo starts CVC CVC CVC ..., and would break into a
>cmavo and a shorter brivla, I am struggling to see how it can break
>other than after the first CV, leaving the shorter brivla being all
>but the initial 2 letters.  In this case, the test would just be
>whether the 3rd and 4th letters form an initial consonant pair, and
>would not require checking of other 'joints' as described in the
>document, or of the form of the trailing 'X' part of the lujvo.

Example:

"tosmapku" does not fail the test, it cannot break into "to sma-pku"
because "pku" is not a possible rafsi, so it can only be "tos-mapku".

Similarly, "tostostostostosmapku" is also ok, because it cannot
break into "to sto-sto-sto-sto-sma-pku", so you need to check all
the way down.

co'o mi'e xorxes.





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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:00:26 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test

At 10:56 PM 12/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>
>I am trying to get to the bottom of the lujvo-making algorithm
>described in chapter 4, section 11 of the reference manual, in
>particular the test in 5) for 'tosmabru failure'.
>
>If the candidate lujvo starts CVC CVC CVC ..., and would break into a
>cmavo and a shorter brivla, I am struggling to see how it can break
>other than after the first CV, leaving the shorter brivla being all
>but the initial 2 letters.

If a lujvo will fail the "tosmabru" test, then that is the location at
which it will break.  The test is therefore to determine whether the
remainder of the word, after taking off the first CV, is a valid lujvo of
its own.

I believe the three failure cases can be generalized by representing them as

*tosmabru       but tofmabru OK
        requires tosymabru
*tostosmabru    but toftosmabru OR tostofmabru  OK
  requires tosytosmabru
*tostodydru     but toftodydru OK
  requires tosytodydru

You should be able to see that a valid lujvo exists if you remove the first
two letters in each of the above asterisked words, but that changing ANY of
the consonant pairs that would make it seem like a string CVC rafsi makes
the word remainder NOT a valid lujvo, as shown in the second example above.

If the tosmabru test fails, you MUST stick the y between the first two
rafsi; the y may NOT be placed there if the lujvo is valid after checking
for tosmabru breakup.

Hope this helps.
lojbab


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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
      2. Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: 21 Dec 1998 07:37:12 +0000
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test

>>>>> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 02:00:26 -0500,
>>>>> "Bob" == Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
>>>>> wrote thus:

  Bob> From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
  Bob> At 10:56 PM 12/20/98 +0000, you wrote:

  >> From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx> I am trying to
  >> get to the bottom of the lujvo-making algorithm described in
  >> chapter 4, section 11 of the reference manual, in particular the
  >> test in 5) for 'tosmabru failure'.
  >>
  >> If the candidate lujvo starts CVC CVC CVC ..., and would break
  >> into a cmavo and a shorter brivla, I am struggling to see how it
  >> can break other than after the first CV, leaving the shorter
  >> brivla being all but the initial 2 letters.

  Bob> If a lujvo will fail the "tosmabru" test, then that is the
  Bob> location at which it will break.  The test is therefore to
  Bob> determine whether the remainder of the word, after taking off
  Bob> the first CV, is a valid lujvo of its own.

Agreed, so does the following algorithm achieve the desired effect:

A. Work through steps 1..4 of the algorithm as in the ref. grammar.

B. If the candidate lujvo starts with at least one CVC rafsi, consider
the form after removing the initial CV.  Working from the left, try to
partition this into valid rafsi (not necessarily at the points where
rafsi were originally joined earlier), possibly with hyphens between
them; if this can be done then the test fails and the lujvo has to
start CVCyC..., otherwise it passes and the extra 'y' is not needed.

(I think the left-to-right partitioning in unambiguous; if there is a
'y' at the 4th or 5th letter, take the first rafsi up tothe 'y',
otherwise take the first 3 letters; then repeat with the remainder of
the string.  If you encounter a 'y' you know the rest of the string is
a valid lujvo unless it only has 3 letters, so you are done.
Otherwise, each 3 letter rafsi that you take off must certainly have a
valid initial consonant pair, really it ought to appear in the
dictionary as well!)

  Bob> Hope this helps.

Thanks, yes it does.

(and thanks to <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx> for the other reply).

Regards
Richard

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England


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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 03:07:24 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lujvo making and the 'tosmabru failure' test

At 07:37 AM 12/21/98 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx>
>...
>  Bob> If a lujvo will fail the "tosmabru" test, then that is the
>  Bob> location at which it will break.  The test is therefore to
>  Bob> determine whether the remainder of the word, after taking off
>  Bob> the first CV, is a valid lujvo of its own.
>
>Agreed, so does the following algorithm achieve the desired effect:
>
>A. Work through steps 1..4 of the algorithm as in the ref. grammar.
>
>B. If the candidate lujvo starts with at least one CVC rafsi, consider
>the form after removing the initial CV.  Working from the left, try to
>partition this into valid rafsi (not necessarily at the points where
>rafsi were originally joined earlier), possibly with hyphens between
>them; if this can be done then the test fails and the lujvo has to
>start CVCyC..., otherwise it passes and the extra 'y' is not needed.

I think this has the same effect and the book algorithm, but I am anything
but a master of algorithm equivalencing.




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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Origin of potentiality and capability modals
           From: Lionel Bonnetier <leo@xxxxxxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:24:45 +0100
   From: Lionel Bonnetier <leo@xxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Origin of potentiality and capability modals

A friend of mine working on semantic representation in software is now on
the deeper meaning of the auxiliary verbs in English. I'm interested in
knowing whether the modals ka'e, nu'o, pu'i (especially the latter) all have
equivalents in some natural languages, or were coined for Lojban. Thank you.

Happy new year!

Lionel

~~~~~ Lionel Bonnetier ~~~~~ leo@xxxxxxx.xx ~~~~~



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