_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. lu mi terpa li'u
           From: Steve Furlong <furlos@xxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:55:20 -0500
   From: Steve Furlong <furlos@xxx.xxxx
Subject: lu mi terpa li'u

coi rodo

mi te lisri zo'e lo lu mi terpa li'u goi ko'a lei verba
bau la lojban  .i ko'a pixra lisri  .i le vi zunle kamju
cu vasru le'i ve skicu be le'i pixra be'o  .i le vi
pritu kamju cu vasru le'i nunsnu be le pixra prenu be'o
.i pe'u ko cikre le nu valsi  .i mi se srana le'i nunsnu
.jenai mi se srana le'i ve skicu

ki'e mi'e stivn.


le cukta gacri
        lo mroruxpre .e drata se
        terpa dacti

papri 1 lo nanla voi dasni sipta'u      n: doi patfu mi terpa
        .ije se mosra kanla cu
        cadzu klama le patfu kumfa

2       le nanla cu zutse le galtu      p: ma fanza do doi cmalu nanla
        tuple pe le patfu
                                        n: mi terpa .i lo cizda'u cu
                                        nenri le mi kumfa

3       le patfu .e le nanla cu         p: mi'o ba catlu
        cadzu le klaji kumfa sepi'o
        lo xance tergusni goi ko'a

4       le patfu .e le nanla cu         p: no lo cizda'u cu zvati vi
        catlu le kojna sepi'o ko'a

5       le patfu cu punji le nanla      p: ko sipna doi bersa
        le ckana

6       le patfu cu cadzu le klaji      n: .ii
        kumfa

7       le kumfa pe le nanla .i le      n: mi terpa le
        nanla degja'o le canko .i se    tolci'onimtermakfa
        terpa ctino

8       ko'a jarco lo tricu ctino       p: .iinai ta tricu .i ta na
                                        se terpa ko

9       le patfu cu punji le nanla      p: ko sipna doi cmalu nanla
        le ckana

10      le patfu cu cadzu le klaji      n: .ii
        kumfa

11      le kumfa pe le nanla .i         n: mi terpa le mroruxpre
        mroruxpre ctino cu zvati
        le bitmu

12      ko'a jarco tergusni lerfu       p: .iinai ta cmima lo'i
        tu'i le bitmu                   selylerfu po do

13      le patfu sisti le nu gusni      p: ko na terpa .i .u'inai ga'i
                                        ko sipna

14      le cizda'u .e le termakfa       c: Boo!
        .e le mroruxpre cu mipri
        cadzu tu'i trixe le patfu

15      le patfu .e le nanla se         p: mi terpa
        mipri di'o le ckana boxfo

----------------------

Hey, y'all.

I wrote a story called "I'm Scared" for children in Lojban.
It's a picture story. This here left column has the
descriptions of the pictures. This here right column has
the conversations of the picture-people. Please repair the
words. I care about the conversations but I don't care
about the descriptions.

Thanks,
Steve


book cover
        ghost and other scary things

Page 1  A boy wearing pajamas and       Daddy, I'm scared.
        rubbing his eyes walks into
        the father's room.

2       The boy sits on the father's    What's the matter, little
        lap.                            boy?

                                        I'm scared. A monster is in
                                        my room.

3       The father and the boy walk     We'll look.
        down the hall with a
        flashlight.

4       The father and the boy look     No monsters here.
        in the corners with the
        flashlight.

5       The father puts the boy in      Go to sleep, son.
        bed.

6       The father walks down the       Eek!
        hall.

7       The boy's room. The boy is      I'm scared of witches!
        pointing out the window.
        Scary shadow.

8       The flashlight shows it's       That's just a tree. It's
        just a shadow from a tree.      nothing to be scared of.

9       The father puts the boy in      Sleep, little boy.
        bed.

10      The father walks down the       Eek!
        hall.

11      The boy's room. Ghostly         I'm scared of ghosts!
        shadow on the wall.

12      The flashlight shows it's       That's just some of your
        glow-in-the-dark letters.       alphabet stickers.


13      The father turns off the        Don't be afraid. Now go to
        light.                          sleep!

14      The monster and the witch       Boo!
        and the ghost sneak up
        behind the father.

15      The father and the boy          I'm scared!
        hiding under the blanket.



What is the proper way to say "Boo!" in Lojban?



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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Hello!
           From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
      2. Fwd from pc: [lojban] Origin of potentiality and capabilit...
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:19:59 +0100
   From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xx>
Subject: Hello!

Hello!

I'm interested in finding some people who could help me practice my Lojban,
as I recently started learning it. I'm thinking of electronic corespondence
because I don't believe that there are any la lojbangirz in Croatia yet.

Enlighten me ;)


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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 17:08:50 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Fwd from pc: [lojban] Origin of potentiality and capabilit...

>From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
>Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 04:59:52 EST
>
> >I'm interested in
> >knowing whether the modals ka'e, nu'o, pu'i (especially the latter) all
have
> >equivalents in some natural languages, or were coined for Lojban.

>Well, it depends on what you mean by "equivalents" (Sorry, the Philosophers'
>Union requires us to start off all answers that way).  I don't know of a
>langauge which has all of them expressed in relatively short, grammatically
>free forms.  On the other hand, I don't know of a language which cannot make
>the point fairly economically (no worse than the English ponies given,
>relatively).
> Indeed, the hard one in natural languages is probably "ca'a" itself, since
>that is generally the default in any sentnece in any other language I can
>think of (relative to context, of course) and so is rarely said explicitly --
>in an unemphatic way, at least (i.e. NOT in response to "You shittin' me,
>man?").  And there is at least one story about Chinese (not the generally
>favored one) that would make even that a part of the language (but, if I
>remember rightly, syntactic rather than lexical).
>  I take it that "ka'e" is a pretty clear item in most languages, though it
>may take almost any role: lexical item, construction, compound, ....  English
>has the generic sentence as the simplest version (example 19.1, though
>unmarked) and the pony itself as a longer one, with other shorter and longer
>constructions available.
>  But I do not know of a language (including the relevant sorts of formal
>logics) that has a systematic approach to the issue of whether the potential
>has been actualized, the issue between "nu'o" and "pu'i."  English -- and I
>assume other languages in the same vein -- can make do with modals in
>contrary-to-fact constructions (or maybe different but related modals): "He
>could ..." in the proper context carries the force of "nu'o."  But there
is no
>corresponding mode for "pu'i" (that I can think of) other than riding the
>pony.  Logically, this may be because the actual doing entails the potential,
>which then need not be specified explicitly.  Unless the question is whether
>the potential continues after the actualization, in which case ordinary
>languages would probably take the whole as two separate questions ("did
(hence
>could) then and still can now").
>  My (non-veridical) memory is that the Lojban forms arose in response to a
>particular problem raised by a Lojbanist; many of these problems have been
too
>weird to have standard natural langauge equivalents (though they are not the
>less significant for all that).
>pc



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Good order for learning gismu
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
      2. Re: Good order for learning gismu
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: Good order for learning gismu
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: 04 Jan 1999 07:25:45 +0000
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Good order for learning gismu


coi rodo mi'e ritcyd

Is there a list of gismu around, sorted into an ordering which
represents a good order for learning them?  The order in which they
are presented by the 'logflash' software was the sort of thing I was
thinking of, but I can't see a way to extract such a listing from
there.  (I'm thinking of printing out a list in 'learning' order for
swotting up when I'm away from the computer.)

co'o

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England


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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 08:11:48 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Good order for learning gismu

> Is there a list of gismu around, sorted into an ordering which
> represents a good order for learning them?  The order in which they
> are presented by the 'logflash' software was the sort of thing I was
> thinking of, but I can't see a way to extract such a listing from
> there.  (I'm thinking of printing out a list in 'learning' order for
> swotting up when I'm away from the computer.)

Lojbab did a frequency list a while back, but the results aren't in a form
that encourages easy flashcard use.  I have the logflash list in a comma
delimited format if that would help.  It's kinda long, so let me know if you
want me to e-mail it to you.

Robert Rapplean
MythologicalBeast@xxxxxx.xxx



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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:46:20 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Good order for learning gismu

At 08:11 AM 1/4/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>> Is there a list of gismu around, sorted into an ordering which
>> represents a good order for learning them?  The order in which they
>> are presented by the 'logflash' software was the sort of thing I was
>> thinking of, but I can't see a way to extract such a listing from
>> there.  (I'm thinking of printing out a list in 'learning' order for
>> swotting up when I'm away from the computer.)
>
>Lojbab did a frequency list a while back, but the results aren't in a form
>that encourages easy flashcard use.  I have the logflash list in a comma
>delimited format if that would help.  It's kinda long, so let me know if you
>want me to e-mail it to you.

The LogFlash order can be obtained by sorting the gismu list in descending
order on columns 161 thru 164, which is an older set of frequency data than
the one I did last year.


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Good order for learning gismu
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 12:10:11 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Good order for learning gismu

Richard Curnow wrote:

> Is there a list of gismu around, sorted into an ordering which
> represents a good order for learning them?

The 2-letter code following the place structure in the main gismu
list represents Logflash order.
--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. First stab
           From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
      2. Re: Good order for learning gismu
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: First stab
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: First stab
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: First stab
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: First stab
           From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
      7. Re: First stab
           From: Colin Fine <colin@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
      8. Re: First stab
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:31:35 +0100
   From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xx>
Subject: First stab

This feels weird, but here it is. My first stab at Lojban.


mi rinsa do
.i mi se cmene ivan.
.i croatian. ve jbena
.i la lojban mi se prami

ni'o mi pacna le drani ku le se ciska



I wonder how close is what I wanted to say to what I said ;)))



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:31:36 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Good order for learning gismu

At 12:10 PM 1/5/99 -0500, John Cowan wrote:
>Richard Curnow wrote:
>> Is there a list of gismu around, sorted into an ordering which
>> represents a good order for learning them?
>
>The 2-letter code following the place structure in the main gismu
>list represents Logflash order.

Actually, this isn't true.  As I said in my earlier post, sorting on the
numbers in columns 161-164 in descending order gives the current LogFlash
order.

The two letter codes (actually a number and a letter in most cases) are
something else.  In the original draft textbook, outlined as 18 chapters of
which only 6 were written, I scoped out the then gismu list and assigned
which lesson numbers I would introduce them in, and then subgrouped them
either by semantic category or some othe criteria so I could introduce them
in the indicated lesson in some logical way. A letter in the first position
(I think I only used "a") is just a lesson number after 9) Sorting on the
code will therefore get my originally intended textbook order, which no
longer has much meaning, now that the draft textbook has been broken into
20+ pieces.

The "textbook order", while it is not frequency based, does do some
groupings of words by semantic categoriess, so that, for example, you learn
all the color gismu at one time, even though some may be more used than
others and a frequency list will have them scattered over many lessons.
That is one reason why I have kept the codes in the gismu list.

lojbab


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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:45:17 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: First stab

Ivan Stojic wrote:

> mi rinsa do

"I greet you".  Correct.

> .i mi se cmene ivan.

"I am named Ivan".  You left out the word "zo" before "ivan." which
must be used to make it into a quotation (there are also other
ways to do so); in Lojban we say "I am named 'Ivan'".
This is ungrammatical but intelligible.

> .i croatian. ve jbena

"Croatia is my birthplace."  You left off "la" before "croatian."

> .i la lojban mi se prami

"Lojban is loved by me."  Correct.

> ni'o mi pacna le drani ku le se ciska

"[New subject] I hope the correct thing, the writing".
This is grammatical but not sensible; it gives "pacna" an unwanted
x3 place.  You probably want:

        mi pacna le nu le se ciska ku drani
        I hope-for the event-of (the writing is-correct).

> I wonder how close is what I wanted to say to what I said ;)))

Much better than I did on my first stab!

BTW, Goran Topic (amadan@xxx.xxxx is our other Croatian Lojbanist.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:18:57 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab

John Cowan wrote:

>
> > .i croatian. ve jbena
>
> "Croatia is my birthplace."  You left off "la" before "croatian."

It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia".  I don't know
how "Croatia" is pronounced in Croatian, but using the English
pronunciation, you would get something like "gugdrkro'eyca", which like most
fu'ivla, I find pretty unpronouncable!  Perhaps someone with the required
arcane knowledge could come up with a stage 4 fu'ivla.

By the way, I've been wondering if the word "cravatte" (tie) and its
equivalent in other languages comes from "Croat", since apparently it was
brought to England by an English soldier who saw Croatian irregulars wearing
it.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 13:30:16 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: First stab

Robin Turner wrote:

> It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia".

Stage 3 would give "le gugdrxrvatska"; the Croatian-country.

> By the way, I've been wondering if the word "cravatte" (tie) and its
> equivalent in other languages comes from "Croat",

It does.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:11:46 +0100
   From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab

On Wed, Jan 06, 1999 at 08:18:57PM +0200, Robin Turner wrote:
> It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia".  I don't know
> how "Croatia" is pronounced in Croatian, but using the English
well let me put it this way: pronouncing 'croatia' is disguisting, pronouncing
'Hrvatska' as we call it would be deadly ;)

> By the way, I've been wondering if the word "cravatte" (tie) and its
> equivalent in other languages comes from "Croat", since apparently it was
> brought to England by an English soldier who saw Croatian irregulars wearing
> it.
Yes! Croats do clame the invention of cravatte as our.


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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:31:51 +0000
   From: Colin Fine <colin@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab

vecu'u le notci po'u <3693A90C.B9FB07BE@xxx.xxxxxxx.xxx.xx> la Robin
Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx> cu cusku di'e
>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
>John Cowan wrote:
>
>>
>> > .i croatian. ve jbena
>>
>> "Croatia is my birthplace."  You left off "la" before "croatian."
>
>It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia".  I don't know
>how "Croatia" is pronounced in Croatian, but using the English
>pronunciation, you would get something like "gugdrkro'eyca", which like most
>fu'ivla, I find pretty unpronouncable!  Perhaps someone with the required
>arcane knowledge could come up with a stage 4 fu'ivla.

Indeed. 'croatian' is a perfectly good Lojban name, as far as I know,
but would be pronounced approximately 'shro-ah-tea-an' - probably not
what was wanted.
>
>By the way, I've been wondering if the word "cravatte" (tie) and its
>equivalent in other languages comes from "Croat", since apparently it was
>brought to England by an English soldier who saw Croatian irregulars wearing
>it.
>
>co'o mi'e robin.
>
>
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>to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and
>select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx.xxx

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|     Colin Fine    66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK       |
|  Tel: 01274 592696/0976 635354  e-mail:  colin@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx |
|        "Don't just do something! Stand there!"                      |
|              - from 'Behold the Spirit' (workshop)                  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:07:32 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab


>> > .i croatian. ve jbena
>>
>> "Croatia is my birthplace."  You left off "la" before "croatian."
>
>It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia

i ji'a ka'e pilno le nalca'i gismu po'u zo xorvo noi la goran
joi mi ke'a pu so'oroi pilno  i zo xro cu rafsi zo xorvo

co'o mi'e xorxes





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: First stab
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: First stab
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: First stab
           From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
      4. Re: Hello!
           From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
      5. Re: First stab
           From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: First stab
           From: Colin Fine <colin@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
      7. Re: First stab
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Croatian as a brivla
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:51:42 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: First stab

"Jorge J. Llambas" wrote:

> From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> >> > .i croatian. ve jbena
> >>
> >> "Croatia is my birthplace."  You left off "la" before "croatian."
> >
> >It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia
>
> i ji'a ka'e pilno le nalca'i gismu po'u zo xorvo noi la goran
> joi mi ke'a pu so'oroi pilno  i zo xro cu rafsi zo xorvo
>
> co'o mi'e xorxes
>

nalca'i = non-authoritative? unofficial?

Robin



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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:39:12 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab

Ivan Stojic wrote:

>
> btw. how did you parse my last sentence. i'm not sure that i wrote everything
> correctly.

(this was from a personal mail, but I'm sure Ivan won't mind me posting it to the
list, as the questions it raises are of general interest)

la lojban se prami mi

"Lojban is loved by me"

Perfectly grammatical and understandable, but I don't see why you need the
passive here.  I would only put "la lojban" in the first place if Lojban had
already been established as the topic, or if I were comparing it with some other
language (e.g. I love _Lojban_, not Esperanto).   However, I may be transferring
my attitudes towards the English passive to Lojban, which of course we're not
supposed to do!

I also find "prami" a bit strong - I would use "nelci" here, or "mutce nelci".  I
see "nelci" as covering English "like" and the "cooler" end of "love", with
"prami" being an intense romantic or spiritual love/adoration.  Many languages
have this distinction e.g. Turkish "sevgi" vs. "as~k" (from Arabic).

co'o mi'e robin.





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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:22:12 +0100
   From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab

On Thu, Jan 07, 1999 at 10:39:12AM +0200, Robin Turner wrote:
> I also find "prami" a bit strong - I would use "nelci" here, or "mutce nelci".  I
> see "nelci" as covering English "like" and the "cooler" end of "love", with
> "prami" being an intense romantic or spiritual love/adoration.  Many languages
> have this distinction e.g. Turkish "sevgi" vs. "as~k" (from Arabic).
>
Therefore I adore Lojban... hm... qutite close actually... I enjoy the
challange!

coi.

.i mi verba pa ze
.i la lojban nandu mi

.i le clani cu temci le te jbena le mi facki zo'e la lojban
long-is time-between birth and me find-out something about-lojban
that is, it took me a lot of time to discover lojban (?)

co'o. ivan.

btw, is this 'bye, i-am-signed-as-ivan' or 'bye, you-who-are-signed-as-ivan'?
(if you get my problem)

i guess (?) i could avoid this by saying:

co'o                                 - bye
.i mi'e ivan.                        - my identity is ivan.

Comments are more than welcome. Thank you for living through my begginer's
nonsense.



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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:08:53 +0100
   From: Ivan Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Hello!

On Thu, Jan 07, 1999 at 11:30:51AM +0100, Goran Topic wrote:
> ujutro, obicno. mmm, mozes reci na listi da si se cuo sa mnom, i da
> trenutno imam problema s javljanjem na @onelist? valjda cu za par dana
> uspjeti... :)
This is from a personal mail, but Goran asked me to forward it here.

Since it's in Croatian, I better translate it too. Goran says that he
currently has some problems sending mali to the mailing list, and he hopes
that those problems will be resolved within a few days.



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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:12:14 -0700
   From: Robert Rapplean <kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: First stab

> > la lojban se prami mi
> "Lojban is loved by me"
>
> Perfectly grammatical and understandable, but I don't see why you need the
> passive here.  I would only put "la lojban" in the first place if Lojban had
> already been established as the topic, or if I were comparing it with some other
> language (e.g. I love _Lojban_, not Esperanto).   However, I may be transferring
> my attitudes towards the English passive to Lojban, which of course we're not
> supposed to do!

I'm not sure that that is out of place.  The expressed purpose for re-arranging the
sumti is to allow the user to state that, in this case, Lojban being loved is more
significant than me loving it.  While I'm not sure that "passive" is an appropriate
description, it does put the stress on the acted-upon instead of the acting.

I'm that this isn't appropriate for non verb-like gismu, though.

co'o

rab.



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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:44:42 +0000
   From: Colin Fine <colin@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab

vecu'u le notci po'u <19990107102212.A32324@xxxxxx.xxxx.xx> la Ivan
Stojic <ivans@xxxx.xx> cu cusku di'e
>
>.i mi verba pa ze

. di'u na se gerna .i loi namcu cmavo porsi na sumti .i ku'i loi namcu
je sumti cu ve gadri zo li
.i lu mi verba li pa ze li'u .e'u

>.i la lojban nandu mi

.i'e

>
>.i le clani cu temci le te jbena le mi facki zo'e la lojban
>long-is time-between birth and me find-out something about-lojban
>that is, it took me a lot of time to discover lojban (?)

.i lu le mi facki zo'e la lojban li'u se gerna .ia gi'e sinxa da pe mi
poi facki .i va'i le gasnu jenai fasnu .i mi smadi le du'u do se sidbo
tu'a lu le nu mi facki zo'e la lojban li'u
>
>co'o. ivan.
>
>btw, is this 'bye, i-am-signed-as-ivan' or 'bye, you-who-are-signed-as-ivan'?
>(if you get my problem)
>
.i livrinsa le se cmene

>i guess (?) i could avoid this by saying:
>
>co'o                                 - bye
>.i mi'e ivan.                        - my identity is ivan.

.i cafne fa tu'a lu co'o mi'e kolin li'u mu'a
>
>Comments are more than welcome. Thank you for living through my begginer's
>nonsense.
.i'e .ui to'e nalracli

co'o mi'e kolin

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|     Colin Fine    66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK       |
|  Tel: 01274 592696/0976 635354  e-mail:  colin@xxxxxxxx.xxxxx.xx.xx |
|        "Don't just do something! Stand there!"                      |
|              - from 'Behold the Spirit' (workshop)                  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:15:14 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: First stab


>> i ji'a ka'e pilno le nalca'i gismu po'u zo xorvo noi la goran
>> joi mi ke'a pu so'oroi pilno  i zo xro cu rafsi zo xorvo
>>
>nalca'i = non-authoritative? unofficial?
>
>Robin


i drani i mi na catni le nu finti loi cnino gismu i ku'i mi e ro pilno
cu zifre le nu stidi fi lei drata pilno i iepei

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 23:54:20 -0500
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Croatian as a brivla

Regarding a word for Croatia(n), John Cowan noted a valid Type 3 fu'ivla.
I think Jorge suggested a possible gismu, which would be very unofficial
under the gismu baseline.  the other option would be either a type 4
fu'ivla or a subset of the latter, a rafsi fu'ivla as described in Chapter
4 section 16 (p80) of the Book.

xrvatska itself would seem to be a valid type 4 fu'ivla - I don't see any
obvious way that the beginning consonat cluster could break up.

Standard type 4 fu'ivla cannot be compounded into proper lujvo, though one
can achieve the effect using zei

A rafsi fu'ivla, which could be used in compounds by replacing the final
vowel with a schwa under the experimental proposal described in the
reference section, must be of the form CCVVCV.  I would suggest something
like xra'ata, but the real choice should be made by our Croatian Lojbanists
as to what would sound good to their countrymen
(or at least relatively unoffensive %^).

lojbab

----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: First stab
           From: Goran Topic <amadan@xxx.xxxx
      2. Re: First stab
           From: Goran Topic <amadan@xxx.xxxx
      3. Re: Croatian as a brivla
           From: Goran Topic <amadan@xxx.xxxx
      4. Re: Croatian as a brivla
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: Croatian as a brivla
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: Croatian as a brivla
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: Croatian as a brivla
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Re: lu mi terpa li'u
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:38:54 +0100
   From: Goran Topic <amadan@xxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: First stab

> >> > .i croatian. ve jbena
> >>
> >> "Croatia is my birthplace."  You left off "la" before "croatian."
> >
> >It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia
>
> i ji'a ka'e pilno le nalca'i gismu po'u zo xorvo noi la goran
> joi mi ke'a pu so'oroi pilno  i zo xro cu rafsi zo xorvo
>
> co'o mi'e xorxes

.i do ca'a morji .ue.u'i

ni'o rodo se xamgu le ca nanca vau .a'osai

co'o mi'e. goran.


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Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:39:39 +0100
   From: Goran Topic <amadan@xxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: First stab

Translation follows.

> It would probably be worth creating a fu'ivla for "Croatia".  I don't know
> how "Croatia" is pronounced in Croatian, but using the English

.i mi'o pilno zoi xorvo XRvatska .xorvo

> pronunciation, you would get something like "gugdrkro'eyca", which like most
> fu'ivla, I find pretty unpronouncable!  Perhaps someone with the required
> arcane knowledge could come up with a stage 4 fu'ivla.

.i mi na ka'e .oizo'o drani basna lo'e fadni fu'ivla
.i ku'i zo xorvato pe'i xamgu .iju mi na seldju lei jbomipra
.ini'ibo zoi ny. rvato .ny. na ka'e gismu
.i pe'ipei

> By the way, I've been wondering if the word "cravatte" (tie) and its
> equivalent in other languages comes from "Croat", since apparently it was
> brought to England by an English soldier who saw Croatian irregulars wearing
> it.

.i la paris. pamoi co'e
.i le gligugde cu balvi
.i loi drata cu drani pe'i
.i mi xebni loi me mi gugde ji'a cirske

> co'o mi'e robin.

co'o mi'e. goran.
























We use "Hrvatska", pronounced just as a lojbanist would read it.

I can't put the accent right on a normal fu'ivla!
And, although I am not a keeper of arcane knowledge of lojban, I think
"xorvato" could work, since "rvato" is not a legal gismu, right?

Paris was first, England followed. The rest is OK, I think. I hate
history, even of my own country...


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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:40:07 +0100
   From: Goran Topic <amadan@xxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Croatian as a brivla

Translation follows.

> Regarding a word for Croatia(n), John Cowan noted a valid Type 3 fu'ivla.
> I think Jorge suggested a possible gismu, which would be very unofficial
> under the gismu baseline.  the other option would be either a type 4
> fu'ivla or a subset of the latter, a rafsi fu'ivla as described in Chapter
> 4 section 16 (p80) of the Book.
>
> xrvatska itself would seem to be a valid type 4 fu'ivla - I don't see any
> obvious way that the beginning consonat cluster could break up.
>
> Standard type 4 fu'ivla cannot be compounded into proper lujvo, though one
> can achieve the effect using zei
>
> A rafsi fu'ivla, which could be used in compounds by replacing the final
> vowel with a schwa under the experimental proposal described in the
> reference section, must be of the form CCVVCV.  I would suggest something
> like xra'ata, but the real choice should be made by our Croatian Lojbanists
> as to what would sound good to their countrymen
> (or at least relatively unoffensive %^).

.i mi nelci zo xorvo .e le ri rafsi
.iku'i so'oda pu selfi'u
.ije ra nalca'i .ie mutce
.i tu'a zo xrvatska te nabmi mi le terbasna .e le romoi sance .e ledu'u
ra na'o sinxa le po'o gugde mi'a fau ledu'u ra galfi no drata valsi
.i mi'o cusku zoi xy. XRvatska .xy.
.i ku'i lo drata seltai be le vlakra no'u zoi xy. xrv- .xy. ka'e xamgu
.i zoi xy. XRvat .xy. za'e xorvo prenu smuni valsi
.i ri po'ervlatai zoi xy. xrVAta .xy.
.i zoi xy. xrvatska .xy. na panra
no'isemu'ibo mi stidi tu'a zo xroato .e zo kroato .aunai
.i le terbasna cu xamgu
.i le ba'usna cu pluka gi'e xroato jibni
.iji'a zo xroato pesepa'a ro lo kulnu valsi cu se romoi .obu
to .i pau mi na birti ledu'u dei gendra
.i mi ba'o ba'acu'i morji ledu'u ta'i ma rinka lenu lo lerfu cu lerfu
jenai drasu'i sinxa toi

no'i ma selsku la ivan.


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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:23:58 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Croatian as a brivla

cu'u la lojbab
>xrvatska itself would seem to be a valid type 4 fu'ivla - I don't see any
>obvious way that the beginning consonat cluster could break up.


It is not valid because xrv- is not a permissible initial consonant
cluster. It would absorb any immediately preceding cmavo to form
a different fu'ivla. (Probably a type 3, as in {la xrvatska} ->
lax-r-vatska.)

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:43:50 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Croatian as a brivla

At 08:23 AM 1/8/99 -0300, xorxes wrote:
>From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>cu'u la lojbab
>>xrvatska itself would seem to be a valid type 4 fu'ivla - I don't see any
>>obvious way that the beginning consonat cluster could break up.
>
>It is not valid because xrv- is not a permissible initial consonant
>cluster.

Checking the fu'ivla rules, it seems that you are correct - each pair in a
cluster of more than 2 must be a permissible initial and rv is not such.

 It would absorb any immediately preceding cmavo to form
>a different fu'ivla.

I do not believe that this is a stated criterion against a fu'ivla.  The
rule ias that if it is preceded by a cmavo it must not break up into a
lujvo (or a lujvo plus).  If a longer fu'ivla can be interpreted as a cmavo
plus shorter fu'ivla, the latter would be the interpretation, as I
understand the rules so that no absorption is possible.  But lujvo-based do
take precedence over fu'ivla based ones.




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Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:32:48 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Croatian as a brivla


>>It is not valid because xrv- is not a permissible initial consonant
>>cluster.
>
>Checking the fu'ivla rules, it seems that you are correct - each pair in a
>cluster of more than 2 must be a permissible initial and rv is not such.
>
>> It would absorb any immediately preceding cmavo to form
>>a different fu'ivla.
>
>I do not believe that this is a stated criterion against a fu'ivla.

Stated or unstated it is true.

>The
>rule ias that if it is preceded by a cmavo it must not break up into a
>lujvo (or a lujvo plus).  If a longer fu'ivla can be interpreted as a cmavo
>plus shorter fu'ivla, the latter would be the interpretation, as I
>understand the rules so that no absorption is possible.

What you say is also true, but it doesn't contradict what I said,
and does not apply in this case. Of course a valid fu'ivla will not
absorb a preceding cmavo! That would make fu'ivla quite useless.
But something that starts with a consonant cluster that is not a
permissible initial (thus not a valid fu'ivla) will absorb the preceding
cmavo. If you say {mi xabju la xrvatska}, as long as there's no pause
between la and xrvatska, it will parse as {mi xabju laxrvatska}.

> But lujvo-based do
>take precedence over fu'ivla based ones.

In what case? I don't think this precedence could ever take place.
Nothing can be interpreted as both cmavo + fu'ivla and
cmavo + lujvo at the same time, so there's no need to set a
precedence.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:53:53 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Croatian as a brivla

la goran cusku di'e
>.iji'a zo xroato pesepa'a ro lo kulnu valsi cu se romoi .obu
>to .i pau mi na birti ledu'u dei gendra
>.i mi ba'o ba'acu'i morji ledu'u ta'i ma rinka lenu lo lerfu cu lerfu
>jenai drasu'i sinxa toi

i mi ji'a ba'o morji i ku'i na srera i lu obu li'u ka'e sinxa le lerfu
gi'u ca'a lerfu

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:58:49 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lu mi terpa li'u



>From: Steve Furlong <furlos@xxx.xxx>
>
>coi rodo

coi stivn
i mi xenru le nu mi na ka'e pu spuda i mi zgana
no drata terspu

>mi te lisri zo'e lo lu mi terpa li'u goi ko'a lei verba
>bau la lojban  .i ko'a pixra lisri  .i le vi zunle kamju
>cu vasru le'i ve skicu be le'i pixra be'o  .i le vi
>pritu kamju cu vasru le'i nunsnu be le pixra prenu be'o

i oi mi na cpacu lo remei kamju stura i mi cpacu
lo pamei mixre i oi

>.i pe'u ko cikre le nu valsi  .i mi se srana le'i nunsnu
>.jenai mi se srana le'i ve skicu

i mi te pinka lei cusku pagbu

>1 n: doi patfu mi terpa
>
>2 p: ma fanza do doi cmalu nanla
> n: mi terpa .i lo cizda'u cu
> nenri le mi kumfa
>
>3 p: mi'o ba catlu
>
>4 p: no lo cizda'u cu zvati vi

i drani i ku'i lu no cizda'u vi zvati li'u
cu sapmau

>5 p: ko sipna doi bersa
>
>6 n: .ii
>
>7 n: mi terpa le
> tolci'onimtermakfa

i pe'i zo tolci'onimtermakfa cu clani dukse
i e'u zo maltermakfa

>8 p: .iinai ta tricu .i ta na
> se terpa ko
>
>9 p: ko sipna doi cmalu nanla
>
>10 n: .ii
>
>11  n: mi terpa le mroruxpre

i mi zmanei zo mroru'i i ku'i zo mroruxpre cu drani

>12  p: .iinai ta cmima lo'i
>  selylerfu po do
>
>13 p: ko na terpa .i .u'inai ga'i
> ko sipna
>
>14 c: Boo!
>
>15 p: mi terpa

i xamgu i mi mutce nelci le do lisri

>What is the proper way to say "Boo!" in Lojban?

i xamgu preti i mi na djuno i xu lu uele'o li'u

co'o mi'e xorxes





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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. ti nabmi do le nu do cilre zo'e la lojban kei
           From: "Charles Hope" <pearls_girl13@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:59:35 PST
   From: "Charles Hope" <pearls_girl13@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: ti nabmi do le nu do cilre zo'e la lojban kei

e'o ko fraxu ja cikre le mi jbozi'u .i ti nabmi do le nu do cilre zo'e
la lojban kei .i ti ckini la'e zoi y Chapter 5, Refererence Grammar y


1 My fast boat carries things I sell and lemon trees, and is powered by
people.
mi sutra bloti ke le se vecnu mi ku je le pelnimre tricu ke'e le prenu


2 You desire both a healthy boy and a healthy girl.
do djica le kanro gu'e nanla gi nixli


3 That beautiful large black table is made of leather and supported by
both red and blue balls.
ti gu'e barda gi blabi melbi jubme le skapi le gu'e xunre gi blanu bolci


4 John is a small, unimportant person.
la djan. gu'e cmalu gi to'e vajni prenu


5 I want Mary to come to my house for my health and pleasure.
mi djica le nu la meris. klama le mi zdani kei le gu'e le mi kanro ku gi
ke le mi pluka ke'e


6 It was important to John's father that he buy a beautiful house.
le nu la djan. te vecnu le melbi zdani kei pu vajni le patfu la djan


7 Here Mary will teach what is important to your health.
la meris. vi ba ctuca co vajni do le do kanro


8 I teach people that have already tried to win foot races about fast
running shoes.
mi ctuca le bajra ve jinga troci ku fo le sutra bajra cutci


9 I learned by riding boats.
mi cilre fu le klama fu bloti
-----
iraq plutonium arms anthrax cocaine islam lewinsky shipment dprk bomb tel aviv success heroin smuggle swiss libyan weapons

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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. New www.lojban.org server
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: New www.lojban.org server
           From: veion <veion@xxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:09:03 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: New www.lojban.org server

Our new web server, http://www.lojban.org, is now operational.
It contains links to the European server
at http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ and also contains the
former contents of our FTP server (renamed "File Server") at
http://www.lojban.org/files .

People who used to link to our FTP server should now link to
http://www.lojban.org/files instead.  (Veijo, specifically you.)

For Lojban Central: the old home directory is accessible via
non-anonymous FTP or via telnet.

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:47:51 +0200
   From: veion <veion@xxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: New www.lojban.org server

> From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxx>
>
> Our new web server, http://www.lojban.org, is now operational.
> It contains links to the European server
> at http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/

Note:

  this means that presently all the HTML material is located at xiron
  (@ University of Helsinki), only the Home Page is at www.lojban.org,
  so I'm still responsible for the contents proper, and all purely
  technical comments ought to be addressed directly to me.

   co'o mi'e veion



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. coi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:16:19 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: coi

coi. jbopre co skami tsina
to coi xorxes. toi
mi'e sei bi'unai da'i se'o
maiky'elsym.



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There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Origin of potentiality and capabilit...
           From: Lionel Bonnetier <leo@xxxxxxx.xxx
      2. Re: Origin of potentiality and capabilit...
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: coi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: Origin of potentiality and capabilit...
           From: Lionel Bonnetier <leo@xxxxxxx.xx>
      5. le xamselpirci'ardilbert
           From: Minots <minots@xxxxxxx.xxx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:08:39 +0100
   From: Lionel Bonnetier <leo@xxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: Origin of potentiality and capabilit...


Thank you 'Pycyn'(?) for your answers.

I have one more question whether {nu'o} fits for both meanings below:

1. "He could wipe the land out"
meaning "Should he just wish so, he would wipe the land out"
or "He's able to wipe the land out, but he won't do so"

Here the capability is present, and the unrealized actualization is present
or future, and uncertain.

2. "He could have wiped the land out"
meaning "He was able to wipe the land out, but he didn't do so"

Here the capability is past, and the unrealized actualization is past and
certain.

1 and 2 don't have the same implications.

-Lionel

~~~~~ Lionel Bonnetier ~~~~~ leo@xxxxxxx.xx ~~~~~



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:07:33 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Origin of potentiality and capabilit...

Interesting questions Lionel! My answers are only suggestions,
I'm sure pc can give a more definitive one.

>1. "He could wipe the land out"
>2. "He could have wiped the land out"


I would say:

1.    ko'a ca nu'o daspo le tumla
       At this time, there is the capability and unrealized actualization
       that he wipes the land out.

2.    ko'a pu nu'o daspo le tumla
       At that time, there was the capability and unrealized actualization
       that he wipe the land out.

 I don't think the second one has the implication that he didn't
eventually do so, though. For example, it could be "He could have
wiped the land out anytime since 1990, but he decided to do it only
last week".

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:13:51 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: coi




>From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>coi. jbopre co skami tsina
>to coi xorxes. toi
>mi'e sei bi'unai da'i se'o
>maiky'elsym.


coi fi'i maikl
i mi gleki le nu do cmima le lojbo mriste

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:31:44 +0100
   From: Lionel Bonnetier <leo@xxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Origin of potentiality and capabilit...


Jorge cusku di'e

> 2.    ko'a pu nu'o daspo le tumla
>        At that time, there was the capability and unrealized actualization
>        that he wipe the land out.
>
>  I don't think the second one has the implication that he didn't
> eventually do so, though. For example, it could be "He could have
> wiped the land out anytime since 1990, but he decided to do it only
> last week".

Yes indeed. Only the context will determine whether the actualization
occured later. Same for { do pu nu'o se catra le snuti } -we know it never
happened because saying "you" means the said "you" is still there.

-Lionel

~~~~~ Lionel Bonnetier ~~~~~ leo@xxxxxxx.xx ~~~~~



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Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:16:23 -0600
   From: Minots <minots@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le xamselpirci'ardilbert


coi rodo
mi pu fanva le selnei ke pavdei xamselpirci'a be me'e la dilbert i a'o do
nelci tcidu le se fanva
tu'e
le jibryjatna cu nerkla le kumfa i sei jy cusku se'u sidbo fi mi i sei la
dilbert .e la ualis cu pensi se'u mi'a xlali seldinma i sei ju cusku se'u e
u mi'o pilno le samymrici'e le dainunkancu datnysro i sei dy pensi se'u
ledu'u zo'e cu traji bebna sidbo ma'i le munje kei cu fatci i sei ubu pensi
se'u ledu'u lenu darlu cu snada nonu ni'i lenu lenu jy jimpe cu tinsa kei cu
fatci i sei dy e ubu pensi se'u ledu'u mi'a nu'o ciksi lenu le sidbo cu
bebna kei jy ca le pisu'o cacra kei cu fatci i sei dy e ubu pensi se'u
ledu'u jy noroi djuno ledu'u mi pilno le ju sidbo kei kei cu fatci i sei dy
cusku se'u zo'e na nabmi i sei ubu se'u mia bazi co'a gunka zo'e
i sei jy pensi ca lenu jy cliva se'u mi mo'u gunka i sei ubu cusku se'u leka
bebna cu simsa le ratynejni leka ny ka'e se pilno fi onai le nunxau gi le
nunpalci i sei dy cusku se'u ji'a go'i e leka mi'a nitci rivbi le marji
tu'u
to ai la'o xy inventory database xy cu smuni lu dainunkancu datnysro li'u
to'i

co'o be'i la djan maynat



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Sponsoring Association for a Free Informational Infrastructure
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      2. lojban glossing ...
           From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      3. Re: lojban glossing ...
           From: Christopher Palmer <reid@xxxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:31:13 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Sponsoring Association for a Free Informational Infrastructure

Minots pu ciska die

> coi rodo
> mi pu fanva le selnei ke pavdei xamselpirci'a be me'e la dilbert i a'o do
> nelci tcidu le se fanva
..

Unfortunately I understand only parts of this, and it is still very
tedious for me to look up all the unknown words.
To really get started with Lojban I would need to either
* take a vacation of 2 weeks to get over the learning curve
* beg you guys to write bilingually so I can gradually learn from you
* beg John Cowan or some other programmer to adapt the reference parser in
  such a way that it will supply a list of word explanations after its
  output, if you invoke it with a certain switch

It would be even better, if a parser could be programmed to output
Logician's English (L-EN).  Currently the EU is spending lots of money on
translating Chinese documents into English.  With a useable LB-->L-EN
parser, I'm sure it would be possible to have this stuff translated into
Lojban instead.

Currently a group of people in Munich is founding a "Sponsoring
Association for a Free Informational Infrastructure", and formulating all
kinds of public interest projects, including language resources, see

        http://www.lrz.de/~phm/ffii/

(mostly in German).
I want to formulate a project for such a LB-->L-EN parser and would like
to hear some qualified views about how feasible this is, what the problems
will be.

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/









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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:04:34 +0000
   From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: lojban glossing ...


PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx> writes:

> To really get started with Lojban I would need to ...
> * beg John Cowan or some other programmer to adapt the
>   reference parser in such a way that it will supply a
>   list of word explanations after its output, if you
>   invoke it with a certain switch

I already have a glosser that takes the output from the
parser, looks up all the words, and then spits it out in
a form that's as close to readable as I can get it.  It's
not only not user-friendly, it's down-right user hostile,
and it only runs under DOS, but I'll consider letting
people use a copy if they think it will help ...


cdw.


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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:53:48 -0600 (CST)
   From: Christopher Palmer <reid@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban glossing ...

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx wrote:

> I already have a glosser that takes the output from the
> parser, looks up all the words, and then spits it out in
> a form that's as close to readable as I can get it.

Tasty!

> It's not only not user-friendly, it's down-right user hostile,

Couldn't be any worse than Windows...

> and it only runs under DOS,

Or an emulator.

> but I'll consider letting people use a copy if they think it will help
> ...

Yeah, I'd be interested in playing with it. Any chance we can get the
source code?



---------(( Christopher Reid Palmer : www.pconline.com/~reid/ ))---------

              the characters i am, made into a word complete
                              -- Meshuggah




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. defining meanings of gismu
           From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:13:35 -0500
   From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: defining meanings of gismu

Are there any principles used in the defining of gismu?

I was looking at "bajra," which means:

    x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4.

It seems to me the gismu would be a lot more useful if it meant something
like:

    x1 runs for reason x2 at speed x3 using limbs x4 with gait x5.

In fact, if "gait" could make the distinction between shuffling quickly,
jogging, running or sprinting, then maybe it should be x2.  But the reason
for the running seems important; is it for exercize, training, a race?  And
the speed parameter might also help us see if it's jogging, sprinting, etc.

The limbs part seems less important, usually obvious from context -- if it's
a dog, it's on all four limbs, etc.

The surface seems very unimportant to me.  I don't know how others feel
about it, but it seems to me when you run, you often do so on many different
surfaces.

So in the original gismu, it seems x2 and x3 are nearly or wholly
unimportant, and x4 could be better replaced with a speed parameter which is
both more specific and which conveys more meaning.

To repeat, then, what are the principles that are used to define gismu?  Why
form a gismu one way and not another?

Curious,


steve


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: defining meanings of gismu
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: defining meanings of gismu
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: lojban glossing ...
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
      4. Re: lojban glossing ...
           From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      5. meaning question
           From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: meaning question
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      7. rights
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Re: meaning question
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      9. Re: rights
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:57:54 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: defining meanings of gismu

la stiv. cusku di'e

> Are there any principles used in the defining of gismu?
>
> I was looking at "bajra," which means:
>
>     x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4.
>
> It seems to me the gismu would be a lot more useful if it meant something
> like:
>
>     x1 runs for reason x2 at speed x3 using limbs x4 with gait x5.
>
> In fact, if "gait" could make the distinction between shuffling quickly,
> jogging, running or sprinting, then maybe it should be x2.  But the reason
> for the running seems important; is it for exercize, training, a race?  And
> the speed parameter might also help us see if it's jogging, sprinting, etc.
>
> The limbs part seems less important, usually obvious from context -- if it's
> a dog, it's on all four limbs, etc.
>
> The surface seems very unimportant to me.  I don't know how others feel
> about it, but it seems to me when you run, you often do so on many different
> surfaces.
>
> So in the original gismu, it seems x2 and x3 are nearly or wholly
> unimportant, and x4 could be better replaced with a speed parameter which is
> both more specific and which conveys more meaning.
>
> To repeat, then, what are the principles that are used to define gismu?  Why
> form a gismu one way and not another?

I too have occasionally been surprised at what was/wasn't considered important
enough to warrant a gismu place.  Usually, though, the place structure is fairly
straightforward: it tends to be (using traditional grammatical terms)
nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, anything else.

As for "bajra", this has been held up (on the AUXLANG list) as an example of
arbitrary place-filling.  I would be inclined to simplify it to

x1 runs on surface x2

I would keep "surface" assuming this includes places in general, and one may
want to be more specific than what is provided by the spatial tenses.  I agree
"speed" is important, but, like "gait", it can be handled perefectly well by
tanru e.g. "sutra bajra"="sprint".  The purpose for running does not require a
gismu place, since it can be handled with a "mu'i" phrase, or again by tanru
e.g. "kanro bajra" = "health-running" = "jogging (as exercise rather than
gait)".

In general, I actually think it's good that some gismu seem over-specified at
the moment, since when the baseline comes to an end, we will be able to see
which places are seldom if ever used, and quietly drop them, which is probably
easier than adding extra places to underspecified gismu.  It's like the reverse
of cooking, where you add less salt than you think you'll need because you can
always add more (but you can't take it out!).  With languages, it's probably
best to specify more than you think you'll need, because it's easier to drop
features than to add them.

co'o mi'e robin.





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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:23:38 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: defining meanings of gismu

At 07:13 PM 1/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>Are there any principles used in the defining of gismu?
>
>I was looking at "bajra," which means:
>
>    x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4.
>
>It seems to me the gismu would be a lot more useful if it meant something
>like:
>
>    x1 runs for reason x2 at speed x3 using limbs x4 with gait x5.
>
>In fact, if "gait" could make the distinction between shuffling quickly,
>jogging, running or sprinting, then maybe it should be x2.  But the reason
>for the running seems important; is it for exercize, training, a race?  And
>the speed parameter might also help us see if it's jogging, sprinting, etc.
>
>The limbs part seems less important, usually obvious from context -- if it's
>a dog, it's on all four limbs, etc.
>
>The surface seems very unimportant to me.  I don't know how others feel
>about it, but it seems to me when you run, you often do so on many different
>surfaces.
>
>So in the original gismu, it seems x2 and x3 are nearly or wholly
>unimportant, and x4 could be better replaced with a speed parameter which is
>both more specific and which conveys more meaning.
>
>To repeat, then, what are the principles that are used to define gismu?  Why
>form a gismu one way and not another?

The given place structure was chosen partly for parallelism with cadzu
(walk) which matches the first 3 places.  The 4th place, the gait, is
primarily useful for 4-legged animals, since bajra then encompasses trot
and gallop.  Certainly I would think that jogging and sprinting could be
communicated via x4, but I am not sure what would go in the place for any
of these.

Originally, bajra and cadzu matched the place structure of klama.  I'm
surprised that you didn't ask about the destination. But we tried to
minimize redundancy and someone pointed out that you can run in place.

Which brings us to one answer to your question - speed in the sense of
distance travelled per unit time is not important unless you are running to
somewhere or on a route, and bajra doesn't necessarily imply such movement.

If we put in speed, the physics types would want it to be a vector quantity
and speed/velocity could apply to all movement predicates.

In short, all this is a can of worms.

Meanwhile, what kind of speed - how much movement across the terrain, or
the rate at which the limbs are lifted, or the speed of said limbs through
space (which I would guess is a harmonic variable in approximation).  If
someone runs on an exercise machine, what is the speed?

The point being is that the running is a function of the limbs, not of the
runner.  And the nature of running is that it needs a reference against
which the  limb movement acts.  That human beings only run on particular
limbs is not inteded to be a limit on the concept.  We certainly can walk
on our hands or on all fours.

lojbab




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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:30:30 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lojban glossing ...

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Christopher Palmer wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx wrote:
>
> > I already have a glosser that takes the output from the
> > parser, looks up all the words, and then spits it out in
> > a form that's as close to readable as I can get it.
>
> Tasty!
>
> > and it only runs under DOS,
>
> Or an emulator.

such as Linux dosemu.

> > but I'll consider letting people use a copy if they think it will help
> > ...
>
> Yeah, I'd be interested in playing with it. Any chance we can get the
> source code?

So would I.
I would like to use it in a pipeline, e.g.

$ cat lojban.txt | parse | gloss | more

I don't know about the possibility of hiding dosemu in a script called
'gloss' which invokes the binary file, but porting the source code
to a cross-platform language might be quite feasible too.

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/






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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:03:10 +0000
   From: C.D.Wright@xxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: lojban glossing ...


> So would I.
> I would like to use it in a pipeline, e.g.

> $ cat lojban.txt | parse | gloss | more


No you won't.  It's a collection of AWK scripts, binaries
and DOS batch files that will need significant re-writing
or encapsulation to make work like this.  I'm looking at
the code now and I can't release it as it is.  I won't try
to make it perfect, but it needs work.  I'll look at it
over the weekend, but it's not my top priority right now.


cdw


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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:12:57 -0500
   From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: meaning question

Thanks for the feedback on my previous post.  Some interesting answers.

I have a question about the meaning of gismu "karbi."  The gismu list
defines karbi as:

compare;  x1 [observer] compares x2 with x3 in property x4 (ka), determining
comparison x5 (state)

I do not understand what is meant by "determining comparison."  Is this used
to say which side is greater or less?  Or what?

Thanks for any clarification...


steve


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Message: 6
   Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 07:58:12 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: meaning question

At 02:12 AM 1/30/99 -0500, Steven D. Arnold wrote:
>From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>Thanks for the feedback on my previous post.  Some interesting answers.
>
>I have a question about the meaning of gismu "karbi."  The gismu list
>defines karbi as:
>
>compare;  x1 [observer] compares x2 with x3 in property x4 (ka), determining
>comparison x5 (state)
>
>I do not understand what is meant by "determining comparison."  Is this used
>to say which side is greater or less?  Or what?

If the comparison is size, then yes, x5 might be "the state of x2 being
greater than x3".  But other means of comparing exist, such as set
membership and generality of concept that I think would be expressed
through x5.  x5 is whatever relationship is determined between x2 and x3 in
the property x4.  That is pretty open ended when talking Lojban properties
(ka abstractions).  Thus the result of comparing you and me in this
conversation le ka casnu), is that we are mutual conversants (members of
the mass loi casnu).

But I expect that mostly it will be used for greater/lesser, especially
when there is a subjective component to invoke a need for x1.  Otherise you
would just express the relationship "greater" or "lesser".

lojbab


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Message: 7
   Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:17:54 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: rights

How would you render "right" (as in "human rights") into Lojban?
I've searched my makeshift dictionary and can only find right as
in direction, or as in "correct".

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:50:55 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: meaning question



>From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>compare;  x1 [observer] compares x2 with x3 in property x4 (ka),
determining
>comparison x5 (state)
>
>I do not understand what is meant by "determining comparison."  Is this
used
>to say which side is greater or less?  Or what?


I think the best way to understand these things is by trying some examples.
This is how I would use this predicate:

    mi karbi la djan la alis le ka ce'u mitre makau kei le nu la alis zmadu
la djan
    "I compare John with Alice in what is their measure in meters and
determine
    that Alice is more than John."

Obviously, I could be more precise by including the direction of measurment.
Also, it is obvious that the x3 of zmadu, the property in which Alice is
more
than John, is the same as the x4 of karbi, the property I'm comparing.

    mi karbi le plise le perli le kamkukte le nu dunli
    "I compare the apple with the pear in their deliciousness determining
    that they're equal."

Instead of {le kamkukte} I could have used {le ka ce'u kukte kei} to be more
precise. It is also obvious that the x1 and x2 of dunli in this case are
the x2 and x3 of karbi, so there's no need to spell it out.

    mi karbi le tsani le xamsi le ka ce'u skari makau kei le nu frica
    "I compare the sky with the sea in what colour they are, determining
    that they're different."

Or I could just use {le kamskari} instead of {le ka ce'u skari makau kei}.

I think that the x5 always has to be a comparison state (zmadu, mleca,
dunli, mintu, frica, mapti etc and lujvo based on those), and then the
property of comparison in all of those predicates will allways be the
same as the x4 of karbi. I'm not sure I understand Lojbab's example
with membership of a group as the x5. I would like to see the actual
Lojban for it.

Also the x4 and x5 of karbi might be useful to use directly. For example:

      le blanu cu zmadu le crino ro le ve karbi
      "The blue one surpassed the green one in every regard."

      le xe karbi cu stidi le nu le cutci cu se ponse le nixli
      "The result of the comparison suggests that the shoe belongs
      to the girl."

co'o mi'e xorxes








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Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:58:42 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights



>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
>How would you render "right" (as in "human rights") into Lojban?
>I've searched my makeshift dictionary and can only find right as
>in direction, or as in "correct".


i pe'i zo selzi'e

co'o mi'e xorxes





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: rights
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: rights
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: rights
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:12:10 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: rights

At 10:58 AM 1/17/99 -0300, =?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?= wrote:
>From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>>How would you render "right" (as in "human rights") into Lojban?
>>I've searched my makeshift dictionary and can only find right as
>>in direction, or as in "correct".
>i pe'i zo selzi'e
>
>co'o mi'e xorxes

This one has been discussed.  I ought to add it to the dictionary.  The
concept of "rights" was a key justification for the (relatively late)
addition of jinzi innate.  The sense of English "right" that implies an
innate entitlement is thus more akin to jinzi than zifre.  Probably most
usages could be convered by combining the two jizyselzi'e

lojbab


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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:54:14 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

mi ckire la lojbab .e la xorxes. lenu fanva sarji

Here, then, is my attempt at translating the first clause of the UNDHR:

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable
rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom,
justice and peace in the world,

pe'i lenu tugni fi leka jinzi se sinma .e leka dunli je galfinai selzi'e
po'e lepiro remna lanzu cu jicmu lenu zifre .e lenu pairvu'e .e lenu panpi
pe munjyzda

Notes:

(a) Most of the translators seem to have had problems with the rhetorical
"whereas".  In Esperanto it comes out as "pro tio"; in the other IALs it is
"considerante" or some variant thereof.  An attitudinal is called for, but
I'm not sure that "pe'i" is the right one here.

(b)  "pairvu'e" is from NN's lujvo list, glossed as "fair".  There doesn't
seem to be a Lojban word corresponding exactly to "just(ice)".

(c) "galfinai" is an extremely clumsy attempt to render "inalienable"

(c) I'm sure I've missed out a terminator or two!

Corrctions/improvements would be much appreciated.  This will go on my
website as part of an essay on IALs, along with the Esperanto, Ido,
Occidental, Interlingua and (if I can get someone to translate it) Glosa
versions.

co'o mi'e robin.




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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:51:57 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights



>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
>(a) Most of the translators seem to have had problems with the rhetorical
>"whereas".  In Esperanto it comes out as "pro tio"; in the other IALs it is
>"considerante" or some variant thereof.

Those seem like standard translations. At least the Esperanto "pro tio, ke"
is very standard for this, and since the equivalent formula in Spanish is
"considerando" I suppose that "considerante" is not surprising for the
Romance based IALs.

>An attitudinal is called for, but
>I'm not sure that "pe'i" is the right one here.

Yes, pe'i seems to make it too subjective. The function of the word
is just as an itemizer of preliminary considerations. How about {zu'u}?

>(c) "galfinai" is an extremely clumsy attempt to render "inalienable"


{galFInai} would be a fu'ivla, you can't use attitudinals to modify
brivla like that.  "Inalienable" means that it can't be taken away, so
maybe {selylebnalka'e}.

>Corrctions/improvements would be much appreciated.  This will go on my
>website as part of an essay on IALs, along with the Esperanto, Ido,
>Occidental, Interlingua and (if I can get someone to translate it) Glosa
>versions.

Here's my take:

i zu'u le nu tugni fi le jinzi kamselsi'a e le dunli je selylebnalka'e
selzi'e
vu'ope ro cmima be le remna lanzu cu jicmu le nu zifre e le nu pairvu'e
e le nu panpi vu'ope ve'e le munje

You had {le ka se sinma} and {le ka selzi'e} both in the x3 of tugni,
but they are different types of things "the property of being respected",
(i.e. dignity) and "the property of being a right". I changed to {le
kamselsi'a}
and simply {le selzi'e}.  A separate question is whether you can have
those things in the x3 of tugni instead of a whole proposition. Does
{tugni fi le kamselsi'a} mean "recognizes that there is dignity", or is it
sumti raising and means nothing?

Also, you had the rights and dignity of the human family, whereas
the original talks of the rights and dignity of each member
of the family. The difference is subtle, but I think important, since we
are talking of the rights of the individuals, not the rights of the race.

I used {vu'ope} instead of {pe} because the relative applies to all of
the joined sumti, not just the last one.

co'o mi'e xorxes







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There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: rights
           From: Lin Zhe Min <ljm@xxxx.xxx.xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: rights
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      3. Re: rights
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: rights
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: rights
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: rights
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: rights
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      8. Re: rights
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      9. Re: rights
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     10. Re: rights
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     11. Re: rights
           From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
     12. Re: rights
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     13. Re: rights
           From: Lin Zhe Min <ljm@xxxx.xxx.xxxxxx.xxx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:45:49 +0000 (GMT)
   From: Lin Zhe Min <ljm@xxxx.xxx.xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: rights

On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, =?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?= wrote:

> is very standard for this, and since the equivalent formula in Spanish is
> "considerando" I suppose that "considerante" is not surprising for the
> Romance based IALs.

Whereas is translated as "alors que" (but, though) in my English-French
dictionary; since it is used as an indicator of the begin of the sentence,
I think it would be probably translated as "Quant a'" (about something, or
as we're talking about this thing...) or "Que" (that).

Mmm... There is no Chinese counterparts of this word. We have some words
like "but" (but a more literate 'but').

> brivla like that.  "Inalienable" means that it can't be taken away, so
> maybe {selylebnalka'e}.

Ya.. My dictionary also says so. But from the source of the word, I think
it would be more likely to be explaint as "it can't be transformed".


.e'osai ko sarji la lojban.     ==> Ф޿yC
co'o mi'e lindjy,min.           ==> AAڬOLC
Fingerprint20 = CE32 D237 02C0 FE31 FEA9  B858 DE8F AE2D D810 F2D9


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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:47:53 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Lin Zhe Min wrote:

> > is very standard for this, and since the equivalent formula in Spanish is
> > "considerando" I suppose that "considerante" is not surprising for the
> > Romance based IALs.

...

> Mmm... There is no Chinese counterparts of this word. We have some words
> like "but" (but a more literate 'but').

You mean

        fan3zhi
        er2 .... [you4] ...

These come quite close to "whereas" and "alors que".
But I don't see how "pro tio ke" and "considerando" fit in here.

--
Hartmut Pilch
http://www.a2e.de/phm/






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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:19:09 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: rights

Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:

> The sense of English "right" that implies an
> innate entitlement is thus more akin to jinzi than zifre.

Note that not all, and not even most, rights are innate even by
American legal theory.  The right to take home the groceries arises
only after making payment for them!

--
John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@xxxx.xxx
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:33:37 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

la lindjy,min. cusku di'e

>
> > brivla like that.  "Inalienable" means that it can't be taken away, so
> > maybe {selylebnalka'e}.
>
> Ya.. My dictionary also says so. But from the source of the word, I think
> it would be more likely to be explaint as "it can't be transformed".

Well, a bit of both, really - there are elements of both {selylebnalka'e} and
{selga'inalka'e}. I'm not sure how to put logical connectives into lujvo -
would {selga'ijalebnalka'e} work?  Fortunately in practice such monster lujvo
would probably be unnecessary, since an inalienable something always pertains
to someone, and therefore use of {po'e} would render it superfluous in most
contexts.

Thus {le selzi'e po loi brito tcaxa'u} would be the rights accorded to British
citizens, which may be amended or abolished entirely (e.g. by a coup or
invasion), while {le selzi'e po'e loi remna} would be the inalienable rights of
human beings, or what we commonly regard as "human rights" - {remna selzi'e} is
briefer but less specific, as it could also mean rights currently enjoyed by
humans, or even rights accorded by humans to some other species.

However, this does raise questions about {po} and {po'e}.  It's fairly clear
that (quoting the refgram from memory) {le birka po'e la djan.} is appropriate
even if John loses his arm (because it would still be John's arm, not someone
else's) and the same applies to {la .apasionatas. po'e la bethovn.} since it is
still Beethoven's Apassionata even though he's dead.  It's a little less clear,
though, how such abstract and debatable notions as "rights" and "freedoms" fit
in.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:51:07 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

la pilx. cusku di'e

> On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Lin Zhe Min wrote:
>
> > > is very standard for this, and since the equivalent formula in Spanish is
> > > "considerando" I suppose that "considerante" is not surprising for the
> > > Romance based IALs.
>
> ...
>
> > Mmm... There is no Chinese counterparts of this word. We have some words
> > like "but" (but a more literate 'but').
>
> You mean
>
>         fan3zhi
>         er2 .... [you4] ...
>
> These come quite close to "whereas" and "alors que".
> But I don't see how "pro tio ke" and "considerando" fit in here.

The problem is with the original English.  I can see how "considerando" fits the
sentence, but not "whereas"!  What the authors of the UNDHR seem to be saying is
more like "Given that ..."

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:09:07 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

la xorxes. cuske di'e

> >An attitudinal is called for, but
> >I'm not sure that "pe'i" is the right one here.
>
> Yes, pe'i seems to make it too subjective. The function of the word
> is just as an itemizer of preliminary considerations. How about {zu'u}?
>

Or maybe {ju'a} or even {ju'o}?  We could do with an agreed attitudinal for
premises, which is what the opening of the UNDHR is all about.

>
> >(c) "galfinai" is an extremely clumsy attempt to render "inalienable"
>
> {galFInai} would be a fu'ivla, you can't use attitudinals to modify
> brivla like that.  "Inalienable" means that it can't be taken away, so
> maybe {selylebnalka'e}.
>

Extremely clumsy was the right phrase.  What I was after was something like
{nalselgalfi}.  I still get mixed up with negators.

>
> You had {le ka se sinma} and {le ka selzi'e} both in the x3 of tugni,
> but they are different types of things "the property of being respected",
> (i.e. dignity) and "the property of being a right". I changed to {le
> kamselsi'a}
> and simply {le selzi'e}.

Sorry, the second {ka} stayed in from an earlier version - {le ka zifre} if I
remember rightly.

> A separate question is whether you can have
> those things in the x3 of tugni instead of a whole proposition. Does
> {tugni fi le kamselsi'a} mean "recognizes that there is dignity", or is it
> sumti raising and means nothing?

Probably meaningless sumti-raising (one of my vices).  Actually, if Lojban ever
becomes widespread, we can expect to see lots of this kind of error.  I can just
imagine pupils having to stay behind after school and write out "I must not
raise sumti" 100 times!

> Also, you had the rights and dignity of the human family, whereas
> the original talks of the rights and dignity of each member
> of the family. The difference is subtle, but I think important, since we
> are talking of the rights of the individuals, not the rights of the race.
>

I thought "lepiro" covered that. Perhaps {ro le} might be better.  I think the
rights of the race would be simply {le}. The problem is that we're trying to
translate a metaphor which means, in effect, "members of the set of humans, a
set which can be likened to a family".  My initial attempts to tanru-ise "member
of the human family" got hopelessly muddled, and I nearly ended up according
rights only to those humans who were members of families!

> I used {vu'ope} instead of {pe} because the relative applies to all of
> the joined sumti, not just the last one.
>

Thanks - this was the cmavo I was looking for!

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:41:15 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

la robin. cusku die

> From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> > These come quite close to "whereas" and "alors que".
> > But I don't see how "pro tio ke" and "considerando" fit in here.
>
> The problem is with the original English.  I can see how "considerando" fits the
> sentence, but not "whereas"!  What the authors of the UNDHR seem to be saying is
> more like "Given that ..."

which then has perfect Chinese equivalent

        jian4yu2 ("mirroring the fact that")

co'o mi'e

--
Hartmut Pilch
Federation for a Free Informational Infrastructure
http://www.ffii.org



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Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:36:26 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: rights

At 08:54 PM 1/31/99 +0200, Robin Turner wrote:
>(a) Most of the translators seem to have had problems with the rhetorical
>"whereas".  In Esperanto it comes out as "pro tio"; in the other IALs it is
>"considerante" or some variant thereof.  An attitudinal is called for, but
>I'm not sure that "pe'i" is the right one here.

The sentence is stating assumptions, not opinions, and is justifying that
which follows.  So I would use an attitude of assumption coupled maybe with
anticipation/expectation.

>(b)  "pairvu'e" is from NN's lujvo list, glossed as "fair".  There doesn't
>seem to be a Lojban word corresponding exactly to "just(ice)".

marde cnemu  or marde seljerna
appropriately lujvoized, of course

>(c) "galfinai" is an extremely clumsy attempt to render "inalienable"

Not a valid word.  galfynai would be, but not the shortest form.

innate (jinzi) or perhaps permanent - selckaji characteristics

lojbab


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Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:30:00 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights

>> Mmm... There is no Chinese counterparts of this word. We have some words
>> like "but" (but a more literate 'but').
>
>You mean
>
> fan3zhi
> er2 .... [you4] ...
>
>These come quite close to "whereas" and "alors que".
>But I don't see how "pro tio ke" and "considerando" fit in here.

They are all very standard legalese, I think. In French this "whereas" is
translated as "considerant". You can check the Declaration in several
languages at www.unhchr.ch/undhr, including Chinese, to find out
what they use. I am certain that there must be a standard translation
in any language, since this wording is extremely common in all kinds
of legal documents.

I don't see "pro tio ke" and "considerando/considerant" to be all
that different from "whereas" anyway. They all mean "considering that",
or "taking into account that", or "given that", etc.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:54:53 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights


>> Yes, pe'i seems to make it too subjective. The function of the word
>> is just as an itemizer of preliminary considerations. How about {zu'u}?
>>
>Or maybe {ju'a} or even {ju'o}?  We could do with an agreed attitudinal for
>premises, which is what the opening of the UNDHR is all about.

I agree. I thought of those too, and also considered {ka'u}. I think
{ju'a} doesn't work because the main assertion, the declaration itself,
is what comes after the preliminary considerations, thus using {ju'a}
gives them the wrong weight. {ju'o} might work, in some way we'd
be saying these things are already certain, and based on that we now
declare what follows. I liked {zu'u} because I think it is the closest
in meaning, i.e. on the one hand, we have all these facts, and therefore
we declare ... In this case there happen to be no facts mentioned
on the other hand, but I don't see that as a problem, {zu'u} is after
all for stating premises.

>> Also, you had the rights and dignity of the human family, whereas
>> the original talks of the rights and dignity of each member
>> of the family. The difference is subtle, but I think important, since we
>> are talking of the rights of the individuals, not the rights of the race.
>>
>I thought "lepiro" covered that. Perhaps {ro le} might be better.

No, {ro le lanzu} means "each of the families". If you want to refer
to the members you do need {ro cmima}, or perhaps {ro se lanzu},
or {ro lu'a le lanzu} if you prefer.

{le piro remna lanzu} is "the whole human family". The whole family,
not each of the members.

>I think the
>rights of the race would be simply {le}.

{le lanzu} and {ro le lanzu} mean exactly the same thing: each
of the families.

>The problem is that we're trying to
>translate a metaphor which means, in effect, "members of the set of humans,
a
>set which can be likened to a family".  My initial attempts to tanru-ise
"member
>of the human family" got hopelessly muddled, and I nearly ended up
according
>rights only to those humans who were members of families!

I think {ro cmima be le remna lanzu} is a perfect translation for "all
members
of the human family". Where is the problem?

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 11
   Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:06:08 -0500
   From: "Steven D. Arnold" <yami@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: rights

> The
> concept of "rights" was a key justification for the (relatively late)
> addition of jinzi innate.

There seem to be many useful shades of meaning in this area, including:

1. Something innate which is part of the definition of the thing.  That is,
you can't have an X without property Y.  This, I think, is the usual sense
of "innate human rights."

2. A property conferred by rule, code, or law, but not necessarily innate to
the thing.

3. A property conferred by ethics or morals.  For example, it may be that
everyone ought to treat you nicely, but there is no requirement in
fundamental rights or in law that they do so.  (This is an imprecise
equivalent of "should."

3a. Another sense of "should" in which the property is conferred by
practicality.  That is, something is a certain way because it is best for
all concerned.  The wisest person leads the group because his or her wisdom
is beneficial.

4. A property conferred by the wish of another person or entity; a
privilege.  If someone allowed you to use their computer, that would be a
privilege which they could take away.  If a privilege is granted by rule or
law, sense #2 should be used.

5. A property granted by custom.  It's this way because it always has been,
or because it is simply the way we do things.  In the USA, people drive on
the right hand side of the road both because it's a law, but also because
it's a custom or convention.

6. A property conferred by fact.  A settler owns land because he or she was
there first (assuming that's actually the case, which is rare; more often
the settler owns the land because he or she kicked the previous inhabitants
off, in which case the sense to use is #7).

7. A property conferred by force.  A dictator rules because of force -- that
is why he or she has the "right" to rule.


There may be others.  It seems quite possible that lujvo might be formed to
meet these semantic needs.  I don't know if any existing lujvo do, since I
am more focused at the moment on learning the gismu.


steve


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Message: 12
   Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:30:26 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: rights



la robin cusku di'e

>> > brivla like that.  "Inalienable" means that it can't be taken away, so
>> > maybe {selylebnalka'e}.
>>
>> Ya.. My dictionary also says so. But from the source of the word, I think
>> it would be more likely to be explaint as "it can't be transformed".
>
>Well, a bit of both, really - there are elements of both {selylebnalka'e}
and
>{selga'inalka'e}.

Whatever the origin of the word, in this context I think it is used with
the modern sense. If the intent had been to say that the rights could
not be modified they probably would have talked about  "immutable rights".

>I'm not sure how to put logical connectives into lujvo -
>would {selga'ijalebnalka'e} work?

{jav} is the rafsi for {ja}, so it would be {selga'ijavlebnalka'e}.
I have no idea whether {ja} or {se} binds closer, so maybe
we need another {sel} there.

> Fortunately in practice such monster lujvo
>would probably be unnecessary, since an inalienable something always
pertains
>to someone, and therefore use of {po'e} would render it superfluous in most
>contexts.

I still wouldn't mix variableness with inalienability. As for {po'e}, I
prefer
not to use it. Hopefully, if the language ever gets simplified, it is one of
the words that will go away, along with so many other superfluous cmavo
and selma'o. I still haven't found an occasion where {po} or {po'e} give
more precision than just using {pe}. And if there is such a need, it is
very strange that there are no corresponding words for {ne}. Using
{po'e} instead of {pe} for me is like using tense when there is no need
for it. It may not be wrong, but it doesn't add anything. In this particular
case, as you say below, it is not even clear that it makes sense to
associate someone's rights with {po'e}.

>Thus {le selzi'e po loi brito tcaxa'u} would be the rights accorded to
British
>citizens, which may be amended or abolished entirely (e.g. by a coup or
>invasion),

Yes, or they might be the rights conceded by the British citizens, too.
Neither {pe} nor {po} nor {po'e} by themselves indicate that it's about
rights enjoyed by the possessor. The clearest way to indicate that
is {le selzi'e be lei brito}.

>while {le selzi'e po'e loi remna} would be the inalienable rights of
>human beings, or what we commonly regard as "human rights"
>{remna selzi'e} is
>briefer but less specific, as it could also mean rights currently enjoyed
by
>humans, or even rights accorded by humans to some other species.

This might be taken as a convention, and it probably makes sense,
but I think it is a waste to have a cmavo for a distinction so easily made
in other ways. I will stick to {le selzi'e be lei remna}, and if need be,
{le selylebnalka'e selzi'e be lei remna} for "the inalienable rights of
humans".

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:42:34 +0000 (GMT)
   From: Lin Zhe Min <ljm@xxxx.xxx.xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: rights

On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, PILCH Hartmut wrote:

> > Mmm... There is no Chinese counterparts of this word. We have some words
> > like "but" (but a more literate 'but').
> You mean
>       fan3zhi
>       er2 .... [you4] ...

Quite close, but what you've typed have some errata. :-)
That's fan3zheng4 (not what I said, but it means whereas also.)
What I wanna say is  ran2er2  . A more literate word than  dan4shi4.

However those words are slightly different to 'whereas', exactly.


.e'osai ko sarji la lojban.     ==> Ф޿yC
co'o mi'e lindjy,min.           ==> AAڬOLC
Fingerprint20 = CE32 D237 02C0 FE31 FEA9  B858 DE8F AE2D D810 F2D9


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