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There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. pamoi notci
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. pamoi xatra
           From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
      3. lisri xivo
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: pamoi notci
           From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
      5. Re: pamoi notci
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 08:11:26 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: pamoi notci

coi mi'e tsali

.i mi bangrnorge se cmene zoi ny Arnt Richard Johansen ny .i je zoi ny
Richard ny krasi se smuni zo tsali .i la'e di'u mukti le nu mi lojbo
te cmene mi zo tsali

to zoi ny Arnt ny krasi se smuni zo cpirAKuila .i pe'i le se go'i cu
barda dukse toi

ni'o mi xabju le gugdrnorge noi nenri le ropnytu'a co berti traji .i mi
nanca li 17 .i je le nu mi lojbo .e le nu mi tcidu le mriste cu nanca li 2

ni'o na kakne le nu mriste pilno lo samymri zei sabji drata be la glare
selmrilu .i la glare mrilu zo'u ro le se samymri cu fanmu se pegbu lo
venynoi .i je pu ki ku mi mi toldjica le za'i venynoi je mrilu
malselmixra

ni'o nau ki ku za'a lo lojbo cu mriste pilno la glare selmrilu .i pe'i
.e'a cu'i mi go'i

co'o


Hello, I'm Tsali.

My Norwegian name is "Arnt Richard Johansen", and the word "Richard"
originally meant "The Powerful One".  So I call myself "tsali" in
Lojban.  ("Arnt" originally meant "eagle".  I think "cpirAKuila is too
long.)

I live in Norway, in the northernmost part of Europe.  I am 17 years
old, and have been a Lojbanist and reading the mailing list for 2 years.

I can't use another email provider than Hotmail for the mailing list.
With Hotmail, every mail is ended with an advertisement.  Earlier, I
didn't like that advertisement were mingled with the mail.

Now, I see that some Lojbanist(s) is/are using Hotmail for the mailing
list.  Then I think I might do it, too.

Partings



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Message: 2
   Date: 3 May 1999 15:28:53 -0000
   From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
Subject: pamoi xatra

coi rodo
.i mi se cmene la .evgenis. .i la sklianin. cu lazme'e
.i mi xabju vi la sanktypeterBURG. vi le rukygu'e
.i mi skegu'a le cmaci
.i mi puzi co'a ctuca mi fo la lojban.

[not sure whether {la lojban.} fits the place x3 or x4 of {ctuca} ]

New (?) lujvo:
{lazme'e = laznu + cmene = surname}
{rukygu'e = rusko + gugde = Russia}

I have compiled a small collection of Lojban links at
http://euclid.pdmi.ras.ru/~sklyanin/lojban.html
trying to complement existing collections
by putting emphasis on the links beyond the lojban.org,
xiron and hezekiah sites. Hope you'll find it useful.

co'o mi'e .evgenis.



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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 15:23:20 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xivo

baziki viska fo'a goi le slabu be mi (Then i see someone i know.) be'o noi
du la kornelius. i fo'a ge ponjo zgipra gi lojbo cnano (Cornelius, a
Japanese musician, is a typical Lojbani.) to cmene fo'a fo'a ra'i le fikpre
pe le skina poi se tcita lu smani plini li'u toi ([He named himself after a
character in "Planet of the Apes.]) .i rinsa jebabo zutse (After greeting
us, he sits down.) .i bacru lu za'apei cnino jbocku li'u (Says, "Have you
seen the new Lojban book?") .i mi lu ki'a bau je'i sera'a la lojban. li'u
bacru ("In or about Lojban," i ask.) .i spuda fi lu jeji'a li'u ("Both.") .i
ko'a lu da'inaipei .i xu drata .ue li'u bacru ("Oh really?" Djuna says.
"Another one?") .i lu ja'a go'i fi'e le pevyzirpu pemcypra li'u ("yes, by
the 'Purple' Poem-Producer.") .i mi lu xu xagysmi li'u bacru ("Is it any
good?" i say.) .i fo'a di'inai cmoni (He hems & haws.) .i mo'u bacru lu ge'e
frica li'u ("It's different," he finally says.) .i ko'a lu .i'esai .i ma'a
ba'o nitcu le su'oremei poi lojbo cukta li'u bacru ("Good," says Djuna, "We
needed a second book in Lojban.") .i mi smabacru lu .uu frica .au finti li'u
("If only it could have been written by someone else," i mutter.) .i fo'a
nozbi stika le vo'a smanykemkalgai (Cornelius pushes up his 'chimps'.) .i
bacru lu .e'usai balvi fi'e ba'e do li'u ("Why don't YOU write the next
one?")


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Message: 4
   Date: 4 May 1999 07:35:13 -0000
   From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
Subject: Re: pamoi notci

coi mi'e .evgenis.

 <19990503151127.53683.qmai-@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1124
> From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> coi mi'e tsali
>
> .i mi bangrnorge se cmene zoi ny Arnt Richard Johansen ny .i je zoi ny
> Richard ny krasi se smuni zo tsali .i la'e di'u mukti le nu mi lojbo
> te cmene mi zo tsali
>

<p>
Is it grammatical to use a gismu as a name?
<br>Wouldn't making a cmene {la tsal.} be preferable?

<p>And, thank you for having put a reference to my
"Lojban Links" to your webpage!

co'o



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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 01:14:10 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: pamoi notci

> > coi mi'e tsali

>Is it grammatical to use a gismu as a name?
><br>Wouldn't making a cmene {la tsal.} be preferable?

It's perfectly legal to use any brivla as a name.  There is an example
in the Grammar, where a person named "Frank" is referred to as
"la stace".



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There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: pamoi notci
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: lisri xivo
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: pamoi notci
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
      5. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
      6. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
      7. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
      8. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
      9. possible example of 'cilre'
           From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
     10. Re: pamoi notci
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     11. Re: lisri xivo
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     12. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     13. Greets
           From: Ben Van Poppel <benny@xxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:03:03 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: pamoi notci

Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:

> From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> > > coi mi'e tsali
>
> >Is it grammatical to use a gismu as a name?
> ><br>Wouldn't making a cmene {la tsal.} be preferable?
>
> It's perfectly legal to use any brivla as a name.  There is an example
> in the Grammar, where a person named "Frank" is referred to as
> "la stace".

Sure is.  The custom of converting gismu to cmene by losing the last vowel
(or adding a consonant) is simply to make things totally and utterly
unambiguous.  Putting a {la} type article or a vocative in front of anything
will make it a name.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:10:40 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lisri xivo

la maikl. cusku di'e


> baziki viska fo'a goi le slabu be mi (Then i see someone i know.) be'o noi
> du la kornelius. i fo'a ge ponjo zgipra gi lojbo cnano (Cornelius, a

Just out of curiosity, why {fo'a} and not {ko'a}?  Did you use up all the ko'.x
series in earlier posts, do you have some system for pro-sumti assigning, or is
it just for aesthetic reasons?

le pevyzirpu pemcypra mo

(or is that a tactless question?)

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 05:25:40 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: pamoi notci

At 07:35 AM 5/4/99 +0000, you wrote:
>From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
> coi mi'e tsali
><p>
>Is it grammatical to use a gismu as a name?
><br>Wouldn't making a cmene {la tsal.} be preferable?

Yes, it is grammatical to use any brivla, or indeed most any description as
a name-description.

See Chapter 6, section 2, pg 121 of the reference grammar for more details.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:49:22 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

coi .evgenis.

lenu ninpe'i cu pluka


> coi rodo
> .i mi se cmene la .evgenis. .i la sklianin. cu lazme'e
> .i mi xabju vi la sanktypeterBURG. vi le rukygu'e
> .i mi skegu'a le cmaci
> .i mi puzi co'a ctuca mi fo la lojban.
>
> [not sure whether {la lojban.} fits the place x3 or x4 of {ctuca} ]
>

I'd use {cilre} or {tadni} rather than {ctuca} - "teach yourself" is really
an English idiom which doesn't go that well into Lojban, I think (I don't
know if there's a Russian equivalent).  I'd say

se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
[self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban

or

mi pavysei jbotadni
I alone-type Lojbanic-study

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 5
   Date: 4 May 1999 11:41:33 -0000
   From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

coi robin.

 <372ec2a1.ec0d286-@xxx.xxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1132

> From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> > .i mi puzi co'a ctuca mi fo la lojban.
> >
> > [not sure whether {la lojban.} fits the place x3 or x4 of {ctuca} ]
> >
>
> I'd use {cilre} or {tadni} rather than {ctuca} - "teach yourself" is really
> an English idiom which doesn't go that well into Lojban, I think (I don't
> know if there's a Russian equivalent).

Actually, I have some difficulties with choosing Russian equivalents of the
{cilre/ctuca/tadni} cluster. First of all, English verb 'to learn' (and
definitions of gismu  are given in English!) is depressingly polysemantic.
I can distinguish at least 3 meanings:

(A) "to acquire information" - e.g. 'I learned about [existence of] Lojban
from Anders Transhuman page', or 'I learned that John had married'.

(B) "to acquire a skill" - e.g. 'I am learning to drive a car'

(C) "to acquire knowledge" - e.g. 'I learn Lojban'

Are all of these meanings present in {cilre}? In Russian these are 3 strictly
not interchangeable verbs:

(A) [uznavat'] (derivative of [znat']='to know')

(B) [uchit'sya] ([uchit']='to teach' + [sya]=refleksive pronoun clitic).
However, it is not the same as English "teach yourself" but rather
a medium voice of "teach" (the "teacher" place of the predicate "to teach"
erased).

(C) [izuchat'] (also, academic study)

May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar phrases?
Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
places in {cilre}?

>I'd say
>
> se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
> [self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban
>
> or
>
> mi pavysei jbotadni
> I alone-type Lojbanic-study
>

Impressive. That is what I like Lojban for. However, for my Russian ear
'I learn about Lojban' carries the meaning (A), that is getting some
superficial information with no effort, exercise etc involved which is
usually associated with learning. On the other hand, {tadni} has a feeling of
a scientific study, with more stress on analysis rather than mastering
a practical skill.

Same questions with "teach" - a causative version of "learn". English
"to teach", as Russian [uchit'], carries only meanings (B) and (C). For (A)
one uses other verbs e.g.

'Could you tell/give me your phone number, please?'

French [apprendre] and Japanese [oshieru] include, however, also meaning (A):

[Fr] Apprenez-moi le numero de telephone, s'il vous plait

[Jap] denwa bango wo oshiete kudasai

(I heard once a Japanese to say in English "Please teach me your phone number")

Should we say in Lojban {pe'u ko ctuca mi le fonjudri}, in French/Japanese
style, or {pe'u ko dunda le fonjudri mi}, in English/Russian style?

co'o mi'e .evgenis.




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Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 21:14:28 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

la .evgenis. cusku di'e

>
> Actually, I have some difficulties with choosing Russian equivalents of the
> {cilre/ctuca/tadni} cluster. First of all, English verb 'to learn' (and
> definitions of gismu  are given in English!) is depressingly polysemantic.
> I can distinguish at least 3 meanings:
>
> (A) "to acquire information" - e.g. 'I learned about [existence of] Lojban
> from Anders Transhuman page', or 'I learned that John had married'.
>
> (B) "to acquire a skill" - e.g. 'I am learning to drive a car'
>
> (C) "to acquire knowledge" - e.g. 'I learn Lojban'
>
> Are all of these meanings present in {cilre}?

Well , the definition is

cilre [ cli ] learn
x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 (obj./event) by method x5
(event/process)

I would assume then that {cilri} means "acquire knowledge/information about
something", though the {du'u} kind of invites sentences like

mi puza cilre du'u la .evgenis. cu jbomi'u
(I recently learned that Yevgeny was a fellow Lojbanist)

which kind of nullifies the third place.  There again, I've never been able to get
the hang of {du'u}.

English doesn't really draw a distinction between knowledge and information, except
in mystical discourse and translations of Plato {zo'o}. For example, a spiritual
teacher might say

"True knowledge is found only by those whose hearts are pure"

but not

"True information is found only by those whose hearts are pure"

However, I would find it hard to say what the difference is.  Maybe the difference
between {datni} and {seldjuno} - whatever that is!

On reflection, I think "learn" in the sense of "acquiring a skill" would need a
different word, since {mi cilre fi la lojban.} doesn't actually imply that I learn
to speak/write/understand Lojban, only that I have acquired some information about
it, which I may or may not be able to put to practical use. {tadni} might work if
it is intended to include practical skills as well as abstract knowledge e.g.

mi tadni la taidcitcuan.
I study taijiquan (t'ai chi)


> In Russian these are 3 strictly
> not interchangeable verbs:
>
> (A) [uznavat'] (derivative of [znat']='to know')
>
> (B) [uchit'sya] ([uchit']='to teach' + [sya]=refleksive pronoun clitic).
> However, it is not the same as English "teach yourself" but rather
> a medium voice of "teach" (the "teacher" place of the predicate "to teach"
> erased).
>
> (C) [izuchat'] (also, academic study)
>
> May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar phrases?
> Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
> places in {cilre}?
>

You'll have to ask Lojbab or Ivan to translate those ;-)

>
> >I'd say
> >
> > se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
> > [self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban
> >
> > or
> >
> > mi pavysei jbotadni
> > I alone-type Lojbanic-study
> >
>
> Impressive. That is what I like Lojban for. However, for my Russian ear
> 'I learn about Lojban' carries the meaning (A), that is getting some
> superficial information with no effort, exercise etc involved which is
> usually associated with learning. On the other hand, {tadni} has a feeling of
> a scientific study, with more stress on analysis rather than mastering
> a practical skill.
>
> Same questions with "teach" - a causative version of "learn".

Hmm, like Turkish: "g^retmek" (teach) - a causative; "g^renmek" (learn) - one of
those weird Turkish passive-stative thingies.

> English
> "to teach", as Russian [uchit'], carries only meanings (B) and (C). For (A)
> one uses other verbs e.g.
>
> 'Could you tell/give me your phone number, please?'
>
> French [apprendre] and Japanese [oshieru] include, however, also meaning (A):
>
> [Fr] Apprenez-moi le numero de telephone, s'il vous plait
>
> [Jap] denwa bango wo oshiete kudasai
>
> (I heard once a Japanese to say in English "Please teach me your phone number")
>

A very perceptive observation - you can learn someone's phone number, but they
wouldn't "teach" it to you.  It seems "teach" has to involve the presentation of
information in some systematic way.  I could, for example, teach someone my
telephone number if they had an appalling memory e.g.

"Ok, let's try again. 2664320.  Remember all the university numbers start with 266,
and the rest is just like counting down, except the 1 is missing, so you get a zero
at the end."




>
> Should we say in Lojban {pe'u ko ctuca mi le fonjudri}, in French/Japanese
> style, or {pe'u ko dunda le fonjudri mi}, in English/Russian style?
>

I'm not sure if you can use {dunda} for transfer of information.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 7
   Date: 4 May 1999 19:50:59 -0000
   From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

la robin. cusku di'e

<372f3902.f97c764-@xxx.xxxxxxx.xxx.xx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1134
> From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
>
> Well , the definition is
>
> cilre [ cli ] learn
> x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 (obj./event) by method x5
> (event/process)
>
> I would assume then that {cilri} means "acquire knowledge/information about
> something", though the {du'u} kind of invites sentences like
>
> mi puza cilre du'u la .evgenis. cu jbomi'u
> (I recently learned that Yevgeny was a fellow Lojbanist)
>
> which kind of nullifies the third place. There again, I've never been able
> to get the hang of {du'u}.
>

My difficulty also. That is why I asked for an example where both x2  and x3
of {cilre} are not empty. When I am trying to invent one, it always turns out
that if x2 is occupied, x3 is redundant, and vice versa.

> English doesn't really draw a distinction between knowledge and information,
> except in mystical discourse and translations of Plato {zo'o}.

Actually, it seems to do the distinction when speaking of providing
information/knowledge, as the example with "teach me phone number" shows.

> >
> > May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar
> > phrases?
> > Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
> > places in {cilre}?
> >
>
> You'll have to ask Lojbab or Ivan to translate those ;-)
>

Oh, I meant only translating my English examples from the previous paragraph,
which you kind of did, thank you. Still the question about using both x2 and x3
is pending.

> A very perceptive observation - you can learn someone's phone number, but they
> wouldn't "teach" it to you.  It seems "teach" has to involve the presentation of
> information in some systematic way.

Yes, exactly.
Hence the question: does {cilre} imply presenting information in a systematic
way?

co'o mi'e .evgenis.



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Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:13:01 -0400 (EDT)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

On 4 May 1999 sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx wrote:

> From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
>
> la robin. cusku di'e
>
> My difficulty also. That is why I asked for an example where both x2  and x3
> of {cilre} are not empty. When I am trying to invent one, it always turns out
> that if x2 is occupied, x3 is redundant, and vice versa.
>
> Actually, it seems to do the distinction when speaking of providing
> information/knowledge, as the example with "teach me phone number" shows.
>

...

>
> Oh, I meant only translating my English examples from the previous paragraph,
> which you kind of did, thank you. Still the question about using both x2 and x3
> is pending.
>
> > A very perceptive observation - you can learn someone's phone number, but they
> > wouldn't "teach" it to you.  It seems "teach" has to involve the presentation of
> > information in some systematic way.
>
> Yes, exactly.
> Hence the question: does {cilre} imply presenting information in a systematic
> way?





Since there are only 1350 gismu, we must remain flexible with them and not
allow them to attain artifacts from other languages. ctuca is similar to
the English word teach, but should not also inherit its strange
ideosyncracies. Tanru can easily be made for systematic-teaching,
accidental-teaching, etc.

In the next paragraph I use braces when I am too ignorant or lazy to offer
the Lojban words.

As far as the places of ctuca, I could fill the places by saying mi ctuca
do {the identity of} le mi {phone number} {by speech}. And you would
describe this as mi pu cilre {the identity of} le do {phone number} do {by
speech}.

Is this redundant? What other information can be told about a phone number
besides its identity? Perhaps its existence, its lifespan (I've had this
number for 4 months), etc.







-----
"Obscure, profound it was, and nebulous, So that by fixing on its depths
my sight -- Nothing whatever I discerned therein."

- Dante, describing Windows NT



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Message: 9
   Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:45:07 EDT
   From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
Subject: possible example of 'cilre'

 cilre [ cli ] learn
> x1 learns x2 (du'u) about subject x3 from source x4 (obj./event) by method
x5
> (event/process)
>
How about 'The boy learns theorems about geometry from a textbook by
repetition.'

Le (boy) cu cilre le (theorems) le (geometry) le (textbook) le nu (repeat).

Here the x2 and x3 aren't mutually exclusive.  In fact, it seems to me that
x2 will always be a subset of x3, although I'm not sure why the "du'u" is
there.
(I guess a dictionary would help too.)


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Message: 10
   Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:46:24 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi notci


>coi mi'e tsali

coi tsali

>.i mi bangrnorge se cmene zoi ny Arnt Richard Johansen ny .i je zoi ny
>Richard ny krasi se smuni zo tsali .i la'e di'u mukti le nu mi lojbo
>te cmene mi zo tsali

i ui ue lo rusko e lo norgo cu benji le ri pamoi selmri le liste
ca le mintu detri ba'e bau le lojbo i xautce

>to zoi ny Arnt ny krasi se smuni zo cpirAKuila .i pe'i le se go'i cu
>barda dukse toi

i ki'anai i e'u zo katcpibra ka'e lujvo zo cpirAkuila

>ni'o mi xabju le gugdrnorge noi nenri le ropnytu'a co berti traji .i mi
>nanca li 17 .i je le nu mi lojbo .e le nu mi tcidu le mriste cu nanca li 2
>
>ni'o na kakne le nu mriste pilno lo samymri zei sabji drata be la glare
>selmrilu .i la glare mrilu zo'u ro le se samymri cu fanmu se pegbu lo
>venynoi .i je pu ki ku mi mi toldjica le za'i venynoi je mrilu
>malselmixra

i oi pe'i lei venynoi na fanza mutce i mi zmanei le nu cpacu loi lojbo
selmri noi se pagbu lo venynoi kei le nu cpacu no lojbo selmri i ju'o

>ni'o nau ki ku za'a lo lojbo cu mriste pilno la glare selmrilu .i pe'i
>.e'a cu'i mi go'i

i e'e go'i  i ku'i ta'o u'i le do selmri na se jorne lo venynoi pe la
xotmeil

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:25:13 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lisri xivo

la robin presku di'e

>le pevyzirpu pemcypra mo

i la maikl cu finti le pamoi je pamei cukta pe bau la lojban
i to xu za'o pamei toi i lo pemci cukta i zo ziryroi a zo ziryro'i
cu tcita le cukta i mi zmanei zo ziryroi i my skicu le ri bangu
steci fo le ka pevyzirpu

>(or is that a tactless question?)


i pe'i na claxu le ka clite i ku'i zo'o ja'a claxu zo cu

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:52:12 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

la evgenis cusku di'e

>That is why I asked for an example where both x2  and x3
>of {cilre} are not empty. When I am trying to invent one, it always turns
out
>that if x2 is occupied, x3 is redundant, and vice versa.

Yes, I noticed the same thing. And not only {cilre}, the same thing
happens with djuno, krici, jinvi, sruma, facki, jimpe, smadi, and
some others which have the structure "that x2 is true about x3".
If you put something in x2 it is usually redundant to put something
in x3. I suppose there might be a difference, for example, between:

        mi facki le du'u la djan bruna la pol kei la djan
        I found out that John is the brother of Paul about John.

        mi facki le du'u la djan bruna la pol kei la pol
        I found out that John is the brother of Paul about Paul.

but the difference is so subtle that I'm not sure it's worth the
trouble making it.

But there are examples where you might want to fill both places,
things like:

        mi cilre roda la lojban
        I learn everything about Lojban.

        mi facki so'ida la djan
        I discovered a lot of things about John.

        la karlos djuno noda la lojban
        Carlos knows nothing about Lojban.

        la mari,as cilre lei vajrai la lojban
        Maria learned the most important things about Lojban.

It's when you put an explicit {du'u} that the x3 becomes
redundant.

Of course, if there was no x3 place, all of the above could
simply be said with {roda pe la lojban}, {so'ida pe la djan},
{noda pe la lojban}, {lei vajrai pe la lojban}.

>Hence the question: does {cilre} imply presenting information in a
systematic
>way?

I suppose that the difference between {cilre} and {facki} is
that {cilre} requires some effort on the part of the x1 and {facki}
doesn't. I'm not sure there has to be anything systematic
about it. I don't think I would say:

            mi cilre le du'u makau fonjudri la aleks
            I learned what Alex's phone number is.

unless I had to make an effort, say if I learnt it by heart.
Although maybe the only difference is in the x4 and x5
places of {cilre}, from source and by method. I don't know.

For learning in the sense of "becoming skilled at", I would
use {crebi'o} = "x1 becomes skilled at x2", so:

            mi crebi'o le nu tavla bau la lojban
            I am learning to speak in Lojban.

            mi crebi'o le nu jitro le relselxi'u
            I learn to ride a bicycle.

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:06:57 +1000 (EST)
   From: Ben Van Poppel <benny@xxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Greets

Hi all.

Well, after an extremely brief appearance some time in the middle of last
year, which was cut of by one of those impromptue student exchanges in
Germany which I felt compelled to participate in (out of politeness, of
course <grin>) and the culture shock of returning to Aus to start my last
year of school, I'm finally able to get back on.

I like the idea of Lojban a great deal, not so much as an IAL perhaps but
more in its possible applications in artificial inteligence. Either way
it struck a chord with me as being a potentially fun language to learn,
and therefore I'm here. Hope to that I learn a load of new things and
don't bother long-standings with newby clamour.

Cheers.
Ben


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There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. le rusko e le prenrnorge
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. coi roda
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: lisri xivo
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: coi roda
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. lujvo-list
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      8. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      9. Re: lisri xivo
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     10. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
     11. Re: coi roda
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     12. Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     13. ctuca and cilre...
           From: trevor hill <thill@xxxxx.xxx>
     14. Re: ctuca and cilre...
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     15. Fwd: Bad Bug
           From: Aa7qb@xxx.xxx
     16. vlaxajmi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 03:54:45 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le rusko e le prenrnorge

>i ui ue lo rusko e lo norgo cu benji le ri pamoi selmri le liste
>ca le mintu detri ba'e bau le lojbo i xautce

cunso fa le nu detri mintu

> >.i la glare mrilu zo'u ro le se samymri cu fanmu se pegbu lo
> >venynoi .i je pu ki ku mi mi toldjica le za'i venynoi je mrilu
> >malselmixra
>
>i oi pe'i lei venynoi na fanza mutce i mi zmanei le nu cpacu loi lojbo
>selmri noi se pagbu lo venynoi kei le nu cpacu no lojbo selmri i ju'o

ca ku mi tugni

>i ku'i ta'o u'i le do selmri na se jorne lo venynoi pe la xotmeil

.ue go'i  .i ju'o mi pu tcidu lo notci poi se jorne lo venynoi

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 04:03:19 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci

di'u pemci poi lu bradi je bandi li'u cmene ke'a
i se pagbu le so'i lojbo notci be fi mi  .i ri se judri zoi gy
http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/index-x-lojban.html gy


   bi'u pa finti co jmive je prami
   cu zutse co fengu gi'e pilno le skami
   i darlu co darsi sai ne'i le dinju
   i za'a le lisri cu ckape lei rinju

   i pa jdara'u co prami je krici
   cu dunku bo catlu se farna le vrici
   i malsi co krasi lo panpi bo stura
   i turni co terpa lo nu se malxlura

   i bi'u pa nanmu co krici je tavla
   cu ca ve'u jgira bo cusku lo bravla
   i misno bo sazri le slabu ke cradi
   i ti'e le nanmu le jecta cu bradi

   i uusai le bandu cu na'e se bandu
   i za'a se jalge le nu mrocoldandu
   i uosai le rinju cu jmaji co salci
   i sisti co zasti fa le remna co kalci

.i .e'o ko te pinka di'u

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:27:03 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

la xorxes. cusku di'e

>
> For learning in the sense of "becoming skilled at", I would
> use {crebi'o} = "x1 becomes skilled at x2", so:
>
>             mi crebi'o le nu tavla bau la lojban
>             I am learning to speak in Lojban.
>
>             mi crebi'o le nu jitro le relselxi'u
>             I learn to ride a bicycle.

And this kind of thing is where tenses and event contours can come in handy
(although in general I keep them to a minimum).  What a lot of people want to
say is things like

I've just started learning (to express things in) Lojban
mi puza co'a crebi'o lenu mi cusku bau la lojban.

la vanDAM. puzu mo'u crebi'o dabyjvikei
Van Damme mastered martial arts a long time ago.

Some people may find event contours a bit tedious, but if we didn't have them,
we'd probably need Aktionsarten (action types) which is a real pain.


co'o mi'e robin.

P.S.  "Serious" martial artists may object to the lujvo {dabyjvikei}
(fight-play-compete), but it seems a good way to describe (kick)boxing, karate
etc. as sports.  You'd need a different lujvo for martial arts as a way of
promoting mental and physical health and self-defense - maybe sezfavda'a
(self-development fighting).




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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: coi roda

.i mi pu ru'inai jbobau tadni (I have intermittenly studied lojban)
.i mi pu de'a tadni ze'u (i stop studying for long periods of time)
.i mi pu di'a tadni so'oroi (i have resumed studying several times)
.i mi ca di'a tadni gi'e pe'i mi pu'i cusku .e'e bau la lojban.
(I am now resuming study and I seem to be able to competently speak
in lojban) .iku'i mi na'e djuno le jei mi dragensku
(however, i don't know how correct my grammar is) .ipe'i mi juxre cusku
(i think i speak clumsily) .i .ai mi co'a mrilu le tordu notci le jboste
(I want to start mailing short letters to the lojban list) .i mi ca mrilu
le pamoi notci (I'm now mailing the first letter)
.i pe'u ko ciksi le mi srera mi (please explain my mistakes to me.)


bi'u
ni'o de'i vo pi'e pare pi'e soso [date: 4/12/99] .i mi puki briju gunka
piso'iroi le ca djedi [i office-worked for most of today] .i la'edi'u
srana la'e la putnam. [on the putnam job] .i .o'u mi ba za'o stali
le briju ki'u lenu la kim .e la .adibas. djuctu [relaxed, i then stay
late at work because kim and adiba need help] .i mi ba klama le djazai
gi'e te vecnu lei cidja [i then went to the grocery store and bought food]
.i .ui.o'a mi te vecnu lei crino sluni [i bought scallions!] .i mi ba
klama lemi zdani [then i went home] .i lei prenu na ca zvati ra [nobody
was there]  .i mi ba jukpa le barda ledgrute .e le sanso .e le runme cirla
.e le crino sluni [i then cooked the portabellos, sauce, brie cheese, and
scallions] gi'e punji ra le nanba .uiro'osai [and put it on bread -- yum!]
.i mi ba citka zo'a le sfofa [then ate on the couch]


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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:28:36 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lisri xivo

"Jorge J. Llambas" wrote:

> From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> la robin presku di'e
>
> >le pevyzirpu pemcypra mo
>
> i la maikl cu finti le pamoi je pamei cukta pe bau la lojban
> i to xu za'o pamei toi i lo pemci cukta i zo ziryroi a zo ziryro'i
> cu tcita le cukta i mi zmanei zo ziryroi i my skicu le ri bangu
> steci fo le ka pevyzirpu
>
> >(or is that a tactless question?)
>
> i pe'i na claxu le ka clite i ku'i zo'o ja'a claxu zo cu

.u'u.u'i  .i zo'o nu'i ge la robin. zo cu gi la xorxes. lo denpa bu nu'u
ckini

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:58:19 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: coi roda

Spigot wrote:

> From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
>
> .i mi pu ru'inai jbobau tadni (I have intermittenly studied lojban)
> .i mi pu de'a tadni ze'u (i stop studying for long periods of time)
> .i mi pu di'a tadni so'oroi (i have resumed studying several times)
> .i mi ca di'a tadni gi'e pe'i mi pu'i cusku .e'e bau la lojban.
> (I am now resuming study and I seem to be able to competently speak
> in lojban) .iku'i mi na'e djuno le jei mi dragensku
> (however, i don't know how correct my grammar is) .ipe'i mi juxre cusku
> (i think i speak clumsily) .i .ai mi co'a mrilu le tordu notci le jboste
> (I want to start mailing short letters to the lojban list) .i mi ca mrilu
> le pamoi notci (I'm now mailing the first letter)
> .i pe'u ko ciksi le mi srera mi (please explain my mistakes to me.)

{zo'o.iuro'a} I'll leave the correction to Jorge, our resident editor!  Good
use of event contours, though - could I use this when I get round to writing
the lesson on tenses?

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:16:26 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: lujvo-list

coi rodo mi'e .evgenis.

Thanks for illuminating explanations about {cilre/ctuca} (see Re: pamoi xatra).
I have still a long way to go, so let me bother you from time to time with
other naive questions. For instance: why are some lujvo in the current
lujvo-list file marked with the sign #? Anything wrong with them?

Thanks in advance,

co'o


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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:42:09 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

.e'u lu mi binxo co se slabu da li'u (Suggest: "I become
familiar with it.")


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 13:17:43 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lisri xivo

"why {fo'a} and not {ko'a}?  Did you use
             up all the ko'.x
             series in earlier posts"

i intend to continue each series as if it were a single unit (although i
haven't been consistent up to this point; only "lisri" has any attempt at
it).


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 07:00:22 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

At 11:41 AM 5/4/99 +0000, you wrote:
>From: sklyanin@xxxx.xxx.xx
>(A) "to acquire information" - e.g. 'I learned about [existence of] Lojban
>from Anders Transhuman page', or 'I learned that John had married'.
>
>(B) "to acquire a skill" - e.g. 'I am learning to drive a car'
>
>(C) "to acquire knowledge" - e.g. 'I learn Lojban'
>
>Are all of these meanings present in {cilre}?

I tend to think so, but not necessarily in the same way as English.  A
differs from B and C in that it uses the x2 of cilre, whereas skills and
subject knowledge are things "learned about".  But B is really more of a
certu binxo, or possible certu cilre.

>In Russian these are 3 strictly not interchangeable verbs:
>(A) [uznavat'] (derivative of [znat']='to know')

Based on my weak Russian, I would more often associate this with facki, but
would also use it with non-agentive x4/x5 of cilre

>(B) [uchit'sya] ([uchit']='to teach' + [sya]=refleksive pronoun clitic).
>However, it is not the same as English "teach yourself" but rather
>a medium voice of "teach" (the "teacher" place of the predicate "to teach"
>erased).

I understand the Russian as an intentional learning whereas A might be used
for something you learn unintentionally.  But for the post part I think
this is the one closest to cilre.

>(C) [izuchat'] (also, academic study)

Definitely "tadni" - study does not necessarily imply successful learning.

>May I ask you to translate in Lojban my (A)-(B) examples, or similar
phrases?

Ivan Derzanski is almost certainly a better respondent than I in
associating Russian words with Lojban.  But perhaps Gary Burgess will
emerge from silence and speak up here if Ivan does not (Gary has worked as
a Russian translator, and is a silent cofounder of Lojban because he has
not had time to study it).

>Will you use {cilre}? Are there good examples of using both x2 and x3
>places in {cilre}?

"cilre" parallels "djuno" in that the x2 are specific facts that one comes
to know about a topic or subject x3.  cilre is closely affiliated with
"djuno binxo" because of the place structure match.

>>I'd say
>>
>> se'a mi cilre fi la lojban.
>> [self-suffiency] I learn about Lojban
>>
>> or
>>
>> mi pavysei jbotadni
>> I alone-type Lojbanic-study
>
>Impressive. That is what I like Lojban for. However, for my Russian ear
>'I learn about Lojban' carries the meaning (A), that is getting some
>superficial information with no effort, exercise etc involved which is
>usually associated with learning. On the other hand, {tadni} has a feeling of
>a scientific study, with more stress on analysis rather than mastering
>a practical skill.

I think these would be distinguished in Lojban using lujvo.  cilre is not
intended to necessarily have an intentionality/effort associated with it or
a degree of superficiality.  To "cilre pa da" is rather superficial about a
complex subject, while "cilre so'i da" usually takes le nu tadni.

>Same questions with "teach" - a causative version of "learn". English
>"to teach", as Russian [uchit'], carries only meanings (B) and (C). For (A)
>one uses other verbs e.g.

I think I would use ctuca with all three Russian words - any form of
*agentive* imparting of facts or skills whether or not the person being
taught actually learns.

>Should we say in Lojban {pe'u ko ctuca mi le fonjudri}, in French/Japanese
>style, or {pe'u ko dunda le fonjudri mi}, in English/Russian style?

I would use ctuca if indeed I wanted to cilre the number.  If I just wanted
to use and probably forget, then I would be inclined to use dunda, except
that this seems clearly wrong in the same way that we don't "borrow"
fu'ivla.  We don't "dunda" information because there is no transfer.  I'll
have to think mor eonm this one.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 11
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:05:51 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: coi roda

la spigot cusku di'e

>.i mi pu de'a tadni ze'u (i stop studying for long periods of time)

Since we're talking about event contours...

What this actually says to me is that you stop a long period of
studying. I'm assuming that what you wrote is equivalent
to {mi pu de'a ze'u tadni}.

Even the reverse order is not what you want: {mi pu ze'u de'a tadni}
would mean that it took you a long time to stop studying.

The grammar doesn't really go into that much detail about these
compound contours, so I have to warn that the above is how I
interpret compound contours: each one is a contour for everything
that follows.

Your interpretation would be right if {de'a} marked the period
between stopping and resuming the study. I take {de'a} to mark
the change from studying to non-studying.

To get your meaning I'd have to say something like
{lo clani cu temci le nu mi de'a tadni kei le nu mi di'a tadni}
"There is a long period of time between the time I stop
studying and the time I resume."

I can't think of a way to do it with contours only. Perhaps your
interpretaton of {de'a} really is more useful. Then we could
use {co'a de'a} for the start of the non-study interval and
{co'u de'a} would be equivalent to {di'a}.

>.i mi pu di'a tadni so'oroi (i have resumed studying several times)

I would say {mi pu so'oroi di'a tadni} to get that meaning.
Otherwise, with your order, to me it would mean that you
resumed your several times of study: one resumption after
an interruption of the several times series, not several
resumptions.

>.ipe'i mi juxre cusku

i pe'i na go'i  i do drani je certu pilno le gerna

>.i pe'u ko ciksi le mi srera mi

i je'e i ku'i lei srera na so'imei

>ni'o de'i vo pi'e pare pi'e soso

i zo li se nitcu

>.i mi puki briju gunka piso'iroi le ca djedi

i i'e i'o nu pilno lu piso'iroi li'u

>.i .o'u mi ba za'o stali
>le briju ki'u lenu la kim .e la .adibas. djuctu

i pe'i zo djutcu enai zo djuctu

>.i mi ba jukpa le barda ledgrute .e le sanso .e le runme cirla
>.e le crino sluni gi'e punji ra le nanba .uiro'osai

i do punji le runme cirla ji piro le se jukpa le nanba
i pe'i zo ra sinxa le cirla kupo'o

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 12
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:41:03 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci

i je'u mletce pemci doi tsali

>i se pagbu le so'i lojbo notci be fi mi  .i ri se judri zoi gy
>http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/index-x-lojban.html gy


i uecai uacai uicai do pu mipri lo lojbo selmanci
i e'usai rodo vitke le di'u se judri

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 13
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:40:21 -0600
   From: trevor hill <thill@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: ctuca and cilre...


  It seems to me that we'll want to keep the meaning of ctuca as something
more than just purely transmitting knowledge or information -- so in the
case of the fone number,...

  (japanese) denwabango wo oshiete kudasai...
  (please 'teach' me your fone number)

it seems to me this _should_ be more like ...

  pe'u do djuno gasnu mi le do <fone number>

but of course, you can't 'know' a fone number in lojban, so I have no idea
how to say that.  It seems you can't know anything but a 'du'u' in lojban,
so what do we say when we know a fone number? do we always have to say "le
du'u le do <fone number> cu mokau"...?

-trevor.


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Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:46:06 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: ctuca and cilre...

la trevyr cusku di'e

>  pe'u do djuno gasnu mi le do <fone number>
>
>but of course, you can't 'know' a fone number in lojban, so I have no idea
>how to say that.  It seems you can't know anything but a 'du'u' in lojban,

Right, but that doesn't mean you must always use the actual word {du'u}
explicitly. You might say:

            mi djuno lo cinri le va pixra
            I know something intersting about that picture.

Because {lo cinri} can be a {du'u}, for example:

            le du'u le pixra cu nanca li vonono cu cinri
            It's interesting that the picture is 400 years old.

>so what do we say when we know a fone number? do we always have
>to say "le du'u le do <fone number> cu mokau"...?

If you want to use {djuno}, yes. Other possibility is to use {selsau}:

            i mi selsau le fonjudri be do
            I know your phone number.

            i e'o ko saurgau le do fonjudri mi
            Please make-known your phone number to me.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 04:25:49 EDT
   From: Aa7qb@xxx.xxx
Subject: Fwd: Bad Bug





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Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 01:54:19 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: vlaxajmi

da sodva poi zoi gy Fanta gy cmene ke'a
i paunai djica co fanta le nu pinxe

ni'o lei rusko djini cu ruble

co'o mi'e tsali



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: esklyani@xxxxxxxx.xx
      2. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      3. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. re pemci
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      8. Sklyanin's site
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
      9. Re: Fwd: Bad Bug
           From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxxx
     10. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
     11. Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
     12. cnino jbocukta
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
     13. motto
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: 6 May 1999 10:48:46 -0000
   From: esklyani@xxxxxxxx.xx
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

 <19990506085419.41153.qmai-@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1157
> From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> ni'o lei rusko djini cu ruble
>
money = jdini

co'o mi'e .evgenis.



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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:58:13 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

coi tsali

 <19990506085419.41153.qmai-@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1157
> From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>

> ni'o lei rusko djini cu ruble
>
.uu jetnu

(money = jdini)

co'o mi'e .evgenis.



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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:49:39 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

la .evgenis. cusju di'e

> >
> > ni'o lei rusko djini cu ruble
> >
> money = jdini

drani .i zo'o zo djini cu cmene le gustci crida

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 17:55:37 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

la tsali cusku di'e

> ni'o lei rusko djini cu ruble

loldi gunro cmila

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:04:02 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

la lojbab. cusku di'e

>
> I think I would use ctuca with all three Russian words - any form of
> *agentive* imparting of facts or skills whether or not the person being
> taught actually learns.

In my line of work, I find this is depressingly true of "teach" as well!

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:52:28 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci

la xorxes. cusku di'e

> >i se pagbu le so'i lojbo notci be fi mi  .i ri se judri zoi gy
> >http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/index-x-lojban.html gy
>
> i uecai uacai uicai do pu mipri lo lojbo selmanci
> i e'usai rodo vitke le di'u se judri

It is indeed a wonderful site, which I am working my way through.  Some
comments on the part on cultural neutrality:


> When the new vocabulary was made after the Loglan/Lojban split, the semantics of the colour
>      adjectives were changed. The word "blanu" no longer meant "x1 is bluer than x2", but "x1 is blue".
>      The justification for this change was "we don't want a world where everything strives to be bigger,
>      better and taller than everything else". This is clearly a strain of the Western ideal of equality, which
>      by no means can be called "culturally neutral".
>
Well, I'm not sure how Western an ideal it is - you could equally well see
it as Taoist.  But I think there were simpler semantic reasons, as
demonstrated by the recent Loglan/Lojban exchanges on the cogling list (most
of which were forwarded to this list.

>      To express the concept of old age (as in "old book", "old man", you have to use "tolcitno"
>      ("un-young"). There is no separate word for "old", but there is for the small/big, hot/cold, short/long
>      pairs. This means that it's easier to say that something is young than that it's old. Isn't that
>      reminiscent of the Western youth ideal?
>
Nah, just people being stingy with gismu.

>      It is said that the Lojban community is overcrowded with computer freaks, programmers, science
>      fiction authors and fans. Lojban may have been affected by that. At least one of the gismu seems to
>      suggest exactly that: namely "terdi", which stands for: "x1 is the Earth/the home planet of race x2".
>      Now "home planet"... of another race than human beings... that's science fiction isn't it?
>
Here I agree.  Lojban does have a kind of nerdy feel to it, but that's fine
by me.  It'll change as more varieties of people start learning the
language, since even if the gi'uste has a slight bias towards science,
technology etc. it still covers enough semantic space to enable other Lojban
subcultures to create the vocabulary they need from lujvo, or, as a last
resort, fu'ivla.  At the moment, a look at the lujvo list does indeed
reflect a strong bias towards computing, RPGs and interesting sexual
practices, but if a load of, say, English aristocrats joined the Lojban
community, I'm sure we'd have lujvo for "polo", "Coming out ball" (that's
debutantes, not gays) "tea with the vicar" and, well, more of the
interesting sexual practices, probably.

Cultural neutrality in Lojban is like democracy - an impossible goal, but
one worth striving for.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:21:22 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: re pemci

lu me'o .ybu li'u tcita ledi'e pemci .itu'e ("The letter 'y'":)

   ti ji'a
selsangykai temci
   .i ma'a ta'e
panpra judytirna
   calenu zbasu
le selbei mijysai
   .i ckafi
.i litki xrula
   bu'u ledo
xadysfe co ranti je blabi

(These too are lyrical days. Usually we 'listen to incense' while
making our sack lunches: coffee, the 'liquid flower' against
your skin so soft & white.)

tu'u .i lu kijdru li'u tcita ledi'e pemci .itu'e
("Ozone layer":)

melbi fale cerni poi
mo'u simjorne befa mi'a
binxo de'i ke'a .i gu'u
melbi gi tcima bo milxe

(Beautiful the morning that we finish mutually-joined
becoming on. Whether or not weather-mild, beautiful.)
tu'u co'omi'e maikl.






_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Sklyanin's site

http://euclid.pdmi.ras.ru/~sklyanin/lojban.html


Thank you for this site! It has links to many lojban pages I never
knew existed! Like Richard's gismu dictionary in PDF form, and Geoff
Hacker's editorial - I thought I was the only one that didn't like lujvo
much.






-----
"Obscure, profound it was, and nebulous, So that by fixing on its depths
my sight -- Nothing whatever I discerned therein."

- Dante, describing Windows NT



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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 16:49:45 -0500
   From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Fwd: Bad Bug


>Message From: ilene@xxxxxxx.xxx (ilene) Date: Sun, Apr 25, 1999, 11:19am
>Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver, a Bug's Life "BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will >lose everything!!! Your hard drive will crash and someone from the Internet will get your screen name and >password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! IT JUST WENT INTO circulation yesterday, as far as >we know. Please distribute/inform this message. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know >about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft. Please share it with everyone that >might access the Internet. Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in your address book so that this may be >stopped.
>
> Boats

I have compiled the recipients of this message from the the recipients
of the above.  I apologize for the unsolicited email.

This message is a hoax.  Do not forward it to anyone.  For more
information on it, visit
http://www.datafellows.com/v-descs/bugglst.htm

Sincerely,

John Minot


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Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:43:37 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

At 12:58 PM 5/6/99 +0200, Evgueni.Sklyanin wrote:
>From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
>> From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>>
>
>> ni'o lei rusko djini cu ruble
>>
>.uu jetnu
>
>(money = jdini)

One of the few places where we were tempted to override the wordmaking
algorithm for fear of offending people.  The word "ruble" for "weak" was
made back in 1987, when there was no particular sign in the West that the
Russian economy was in trouble.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:52:32 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci

At 06:52 PM 5/6/99 +0300, you wrote:
>From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>At the moment, a look at the lujvo list does indeed
>reflect a strong bias towards computing, RPGs and interesting sexual
>practices,

I have to note that this is because each of those three topics was the
subject of a special effort to coin lujvo for a variety of terms.
Specifically, we attempted to have an RPG session in Lojban here at my
house one day, and coined a word list for reference.  Likewise for computer
discussion.  Another person (who wishes that we wouldn't keep harping on it
zo'o) coined a list of sexual terms to show that it could be done.

The lujvo list so far is merely a reflection of the words that had been
coined as of 1993 or 1994 when Nick tackled the place structure problem
with no attempt at weeding or balance.

>but if a load of, say, English aristocrats joined the Lojban
>community, I'm sure we'd have lujvo for "polo", "Coming out ball" (that's
>debutantes, not gays) "tea with the vicar" and, well, more of the
>interesting sexual practices, probably.

No doubt.  Care to try?

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 12
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:18:02 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: cnino jbocukta

I am happy to announce the release of the newest book of Lojban poetry by
our acclaimed author Michael Helsem entitled "Moon River".

The plain text files can be read and downloaded from the directory

http://enslapp.ens-lyon.fr/~esklyani/

The book is split into 3 files called cukta1, cukta2 and cukta3. The
files book1, book2 and book3 contain the English translation. A file
of reader comments & corrections might be added subsequently.

Enjoy!


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Message: 13
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:06:58 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: motto

coi rodo mi'e .evgenis.

A new Lojban motto:

ko na reisku le se du'u la lojban. cu kakne le nu selfi do  makau
.i ku'i ko reisku le se du'u do kakne le nu selfi la lojban makau

Or, maybe {du'u} instead of {se du'u}?

Some good attitudinal could also be of help?

co'o


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. vlaxajmi 2moi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      4. Re: pamoi xatra
           From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@xxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. la snedza
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: ctuca and cilre...
           From: trevor hill <thill@xxxxx.xxxx
      7. Parser and Glosser Beta versions now available
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      8. A "feature" of the grammar
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 12:50:39 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: la'e lu bradi je bandu li'u poi pemci

la lojbab cusku di'e

>
>
> >but if a load of, say, English aristocrats joined the Lojban
> >community, I'm sure we'd have lujvo for "polo", "Coming out ball" (that's
> >debutantes, not gays) "tea with the vicar" and, well, more of the
> >interesting sexual practices, probably.
>
> No doubt.  Care to try?
>

I lack the basic qualification (blue blood) but I may try it for a lugh some
time!

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 05:46:08 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: vlaxajmi 2moi

lo'e tamca sanso cu na'e ketco



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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:57:59 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

la lojbab. cusku di'e

Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/lojban/?start=1168
> From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
>
> One of the few places where we were tempted to override the wordmaking
> algorithm for fear of offending people.  The word "ruble" for "weak" was
> made back in 1987, when there was no particular sign in the West that the
> Russian economy was in trouble.
>

{ruble} is not a big deal. A Russian might have more problems with
{sraku} and {sralo} which mean some quite unspeakable things in Russian :)

co'o mi'e .evgenis.


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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:07:47 -0700
   From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@xxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pamoi xatra

I'm too busy to follow this discussion as closely
as I might have liked, but here's ma pennyworth. ...

Robin Turner wrote:
[re {mi ctuca mi}]
> I'd use {cilre} or {tadni} rather than {ctuca} - "teach
> yourself" is really an English idiom which doesn't go
> that well into Lojban, I think (I don't know if there's
> a Russian equivalent).

It works better in English than in Russian.  I wouldn't
call it an idiom, though -- _teach oneself_ does mean
something that _study on one's own_ doesn't, so {ctuca}
with x1=x2 makes perfect sense to me, under the assumption
that {ctuca}, as its conventional English counterpart,
implies performing a very specific teaching process
of which the recipient can exceptionally (!) be the
same person as the agent.

In that sense the natlangs that use a causative of `study' or
`learn' for `teach' are being rather imprecise -- a parent
can cause a child to study/learn his lesson by various methods,
but that's not the same thing as teaching.

--
`Zhi1  ren2  zhe3  zhi4,    zi4  zhi1  zhe3  ming2.  (Lao2zi, _DDJ_:
 Sheng4 ren2 zhe3 you3 li4, zi4 sheng4 zhe3 qiang2.'  di4 33 zhang1)
Ivan A Derzhanski                     <http://www.math.bas.bg/~iad/>
H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria          <iad@xxxx.xxx.xx>
W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences


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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:07:55 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: la snedza

.i leka clatei pu se simsa le cabjeftu mi .i mi na pu sipna rauroi
.i le tcepei pu piso'iroi nandu mi .ija'e mi pu piso'uroi zukte
.iku'i ba'a lei nalgunydje ba xamgu .i le darno pendo ba vitke
fi lemi tcadu .i .ai mi'a surla gi'e gusta citka .iju'ocu'i mi'a
ba klama la snedza goi ko'a .i mi pacna go'i .i ko'a sance muzga
.i le so'imei sinso boxna ru'i sance tu'i ko'a .ija'e .o'u le tirna
ba cumki binxo le cikna senva .i le ko'a loldi cu se cpana lo ranti matci
.ije lo so'i kicne .i .e'a ko'a ze'u selsta .ila'a le du'u temci
cu to'e se morji

co'o
--
go do na se sevzi gi do na'e frica le mulno munje


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Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:41:48 -0600
   From: trevor hill <thill@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: ctuca and cilre...

 mmmm...

  pe'ipei nunpilno zo vreji...

 .i pe'i .ui lu mi xe vreji le do fonjudri li'u na'e glico je ku'i gerdra
lojbo...


mi'e trevyr.


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Message: 7
   Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 00:49:32 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Parser and Glosser Beta versions now available

I am pleased to report that we are making the Beta test versions of the
Lojban parser, and Nora's parser/glosser available to Lojban List members
for Beta testing.  Both are Windows/MS-DOS programs, and the Glosser uses
MS-DOS command files internally to the processing.

Because these are Beta versions and subject to change (or recall) at any
time, we are NOT linking them into the Lojban file server index page yet.
If you wish to put a link on your page, that is fine, but please include
warnings about their Beta status.

You may report problems with the parser to John Cowan at cowan@xxxx.xxx.
You may report problems with the glosser to Nora LeChevalier care of me at
lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx.  At this point we are promising to accumulate trouble
reports, but in particular John is not able to do much work on the parser,
and one should not expect rapid response on trouble reports.

This is the first post-baseline parser release, and hence has been much
needed.  But there is at least one known bug and one
suspected-but-not-yet-replicable bug, and there will likely be more.  The
known bug shows up because it causes the glosser to misbehave in certain
cases (see my other post for one).

Nora is actually releasing two versions of the parser/glosser at once.  One
version will insert case/tags, and the other will insert prepositions, when
labelling the places of the selbri.  You switch versions by changing the
single data file used for both versions; this is documented in the file
archive.  The default version if you unzip the archive is for preposition
labelling.

Nora is welcoming suggestions for changes in the labels for either case
tags or prepositions.  This is not something that can be tested thoroughly
without a LOT of usage.  Please let us know the sentence justifying the
change if possible, so that we can build a set of test cases.

The parser/glosser includes a copy of the parser and uses the same version
of the parser being released, so if there is a change in the parser, you
will want to copy it into the glosser directory.

Because of the idiosyncracies of the parser/glosser interaction with
MS-DOS, Windows-based execution of the program (including file dragging to
an icon) can have file-location problems.  It is best to have all files
including any text file to be parsered/glossed all in the same directory as
the program.

The files are located at

http://www.lojban.org/files/PARSER.ZIP   (42K)
and
http://www.lojban.org/files/glosser3.ZIP    (227K)

Case seems to be significant in the filenames.

The parser/glosser is expecting grammatical text - parser errors will lead
to rather poorly documented error reports.  If you want to gloss a Lojban
text file that may be ungrammatical (it will of course not have
prepositions or case tags), you may in MS-DOS type the following at the
command line

gloss3 i=inputfile [o=outfile]

where the output file parameter is optional and text will go to the screen
if omitted.

The glosser program is not especially fast on older and slower machines -
Nora uses a 486/100 for development.

Enjoy.  Comments are of course welcome.

lojbab

----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 00:59:53 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: A "feature" of the grammar

Nora discovered a "feature" of the baselined grammar tonight in testing the
parser/glosser.  It also happens to trigger a parser problem which can lead
to an incorrect gloss (no prepositions at the very least).

le nu klama pu xamgu

parses with the pu adding an elidable "ku" and being incorporated into the
nu abstraction clause, and the resulting nu-abstraction modifies the xamgu
as a tanru.  In short, the above is a description sumti, and not a complete
sentence.

You can fix this with "kei" or "ku" before the "pu" to keep it from getting
absorbed into the abstraction, but this is a pain if there are nested
abstractions or some other more complex sumti before the "pu".

le nu klama cu pu xamgu

is the most clear and correct form.

The erroneous form happens to cause the parser to generate a strange parse
tree where it reports the error correction of the elided "ku" after "pu".
The result could lead to an unrecognizable gloss.

lojbab


----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: ctuca and cilre
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Correction on parser file
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      3. vlaxajmi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
      4. vlaxajmi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 10:18:56 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: ctuca and cilre

mi ponse le judri be do bei le fonxa (I possess the address for
you in the telephone system.) .i mi pensi ponse le judri ji'a (I
also know it by heart.)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 17:30:50 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Correction on parser file

Oops.  The parser file is located at

http://www.lojban.org/files/PARSER3.ZIP

and not PARSER.ZIP as I previously posted.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:49:36 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: vlaxajmi

ko na stapa le sralo (Don't step on the Australian!)

.i ko'a ciska fo leko'a sraku (He writes with his burin.)



_______________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:16:41 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: vlaxajmi

no te gusta ri'a ie no de mi'erdau i xo de pu ta

"No restaurant patron argues about his order for
no cause, I agree. And how many before that one?"

But I don't recommend saying it to someone who
understands Spanish...

co'o mi'e xorxes





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: vlaxajmi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: la snedza
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. cizra
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. snime
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:39:09 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: vlaxajmi

>> no te gusta ri'a ie no de mi'erdau i xo de pu ta
>>
>> "No restaurant patron argues about his order for
>> no cause, I agree. And how many before that one?"
>
>.u'icai  I got the second sentence, but the first is beyond me.

"No te gustaria lleno de mierda, hijo de puta?"
"Wouldn't you like it full of crap, you s.o.b.?"

"gustaria" has an acute accent on the i, pronounced
{gustari,a} so {gusta ri'a} is a pretty good approximation.
{mi'erdau} is not exactly "mierda", but close enough.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:58:19 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: la snedza

>.i leka clatei pu se simsa le cabjeftu mi .i mi na pu sipna rauroi

i zo'o pau do na pu sipna zeroi le jeftu ije'ibo do na pu sipna
pirauroi le jeftu

>.i le tcepei pu piso'iroi nandu mi .ija'e mi pu piso'uroi zukte

i le tcepei ki'a i xu le nu tcepei i do mutce le ka pensi ma

>.iku'i ba'a lei nalgunydje ba xamgu .i le darno pendo ba vitke
>fi lemi tcadu .i .ai mi'a surla gi'e gusta citka .iju'ocu'i mi'a
>ba klama la snedza goi ko'a .i mi pacna go'i .i ko'a sance muzga
>.i le so'imei sinso boxna ru'i sance tu'i ko'a .ija'e .o'u le tirna
>ba cumki binxo le cikna senva .i le ko'a loldi cu se cpana lo ranti matci
>.ije lo so'i kicne .i .e'a ko'a ze'u selsta .ila'a le du'u temci
>cu to'e se morji

i cinri i do pu su'oroi klama gi'i ca pare'u klama
i a'o do ba skicu le do se lifri mi'a

>go do na se sevzi gi do na'e frica le mulno munje

i lo prenu no'u na'ebomi cu jinvi le du'u ro da sevzi le mulno munje

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 23:34:01 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: cizra

.u'i .u'i zo pol0 e zo 1pri e zo 5pli e loi simsa cu ja'a gismu du'o le
genturfa'i

co'o mi'e tsali



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:34:59 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: snime

.o'ocu'i le snime cu carvi ca le cabdei  .i .eisai ba zi sisti

co'o mi'e tsali



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. LogFest attendee
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. la'e lu le munje pe la sofi,es li'u
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. lisri ximu
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: la'e lu le munje pe la sofi,es li'u
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: cizra
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 04:33:21 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: LogFest attendee

I am pleased to report that Nick Nicholas has confirmed that he will be
attending LogFest on July 16-18, arriving Saturday morning and leaving
Monday morning.

He claims that his Lojban is rusty from lack of time to work on it, but
exprerience has shown that a rusty Nick can still talk more fluently than
any other Lojbanist %^).

We will of course try to have some IRC sessions involving Nick during
Logfest for those who cannot attend.

If you think you might be attending LogFest and have not told me, it would
be useful to do so for our logistics planning.  We often have multiple
unplanned-for visitors, but planning makes things smoother.

If you are a newcomer and do not know what LogFest is, just ask.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:42:52 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: la'e lu le munje pe la sofi,es li'u

coi ro do

za'a le loglo cu fanva lo pagbu be la'e zoi ny Sofies Verden ny poi
bangrnorge cukta be'o le glico la'e zoi gy
http://www.halcyon.com/loglan/Texts/from-sophies-world.html gy

.i .ai mi go'i fo le bangrnorge  .i mi ja'a go'i fu di'e  .i e'o ko dragau
tcidu


lu

   .i lu .ai mi te lisri da fo do  .i puki lo nanmu goi ko'a poi na krici le
du'u lo xysicrida cu zasti  .i ca lo donri ko'a ku'i se vitke le xisycrida
ca le nu gunka ne'i le tricecmu li'u
   .i lu je'e ru'e li'u
   .i lu ko'a joi ko'e ve'a cadzu  .i ba ku le nanmu cu co'a se farna le
xisycrida gi'e cusku lu .ei mi ca tugni le du'u lo xisycrida cu zasti  .i
ku'i do'o na dacti co remna bo simsa li'u  .i lu do troci co cosku ma li'u
preti fi le xisycrida  .ije le nanmu cu spuda fi lu mi'o pu klama barda
rokci  .i mi nitcu le nu cpare  .ije za'a do cadzu co pagre  .i pu klama le
barda ke tricu grana poi farlu nenri le dargu  .i mi nitcu le nu cpana cadzu
le grana  .ije do cadzu co pagre li'u  .i le di'u te spuda cu se cfipu le
xisycrida  .i le xisycrida cusku lu paunai xu do ji'a na zgana le nu mi'o pu
cadzu le cimnalsra foldi  .i kakne le nu pagre le cimdilnu kei fa mi .e do
.i la'e di'u cu se nibli le du'u mi'o mutce jarmau le cimdilnu li'u li'u
   .i lu .ue li'u
   .i lu ki mi'o go'a doi sofi,es  .i loi pruxi ka'e pagre loi vorgai co
gasta  .i lo xarnykarce .a loi bamvinji na kakne le nu porpygau lo marji be
lo pruxi li'u

li'u

co'o mi'e tsali



_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:33:58 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri ximu

balvi di'u .i le cibykoi canko mo'u bancu nicte (Much later;
darkness through the triangular windows.) .i ko'a bacru lu ba
lenu fo'e goi le diklo jdaralju ze'a ge tcati vitke gi ca tavla mi'a
le cinri cinse bo tcaci kei kuku (Djuna is saying, "After tea with
the vicar, during which we talked of interesting sexual
practices,) le terta'a co'a noryru'i srana (the conversation
shifted to the subject of Ghosts.) .i lu ki'unaigi rubjmi gi krici
vau tu'a fo'i goi lo noryru'i li'u se bacru fo'e ('Although i hardly
undserstand them, I still believe in them,' he said.) .i mi selspaji
rincpe (I asked why, in some surprise.) .i fo'e lu viska li'u bacru
('I have seen one.') .i mi lu vima li'u bacru ('Where?') .i bacru lu
vi la sancypurdi li'u ('In the Sound Garden.') .i co'u tavla fa fo'e
li'u (That was all he would say.")

.i denpa (Pause.) .i lu .i'unai .u'e .i'o li'u mi se bacru ("Cool," i
say.) .i la kornelius. lu tugni li'u bacru ("Yup," says Cornelius.)
.i fo'a bacru lu ju'o ba'e mi krici li'u ("I know I sure believe.")
.i ku'i mi lu mi gu'u sevzi viska so'i noryru'i gi je'a narkrici fo'i li'u
bacru (But i say, "For all the ghosts i have personally seen, i a
m not a believer in ghosts.") .i ko'a bacru  lu ri na krici lete
ponse (Djuna says, "He doesn't believe inmaterial possessions, either,) .i
zo'o nu'o viska ro le po'u ri dacti li'u (but you should
see all the junk he has.") .i mi ranxi spuda lu ga'i fu'eka'u
lepu'u jmaji ce'u kei fasnu na'oku fu'o li'u ("Accumulation
happens," i reply.)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:28:45 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: la'e lu le munje pe la sofi,es li'u

>   .i lu .ai mi te lisri da fo do  .i puki lo nanmu goi ko'a poi na krici
le
>du'u lo xysicrida cu zasti

i zo xisycrida mi na pluka i zo jegycrida cu satcymau gi'eku'i
na ji'a pluka mi i pe'i la'anai lei xriso cu pilno zo xriso le nu
cmene lei xy crida i xu do nelci zo cevnoibei mu'a
a zo cevjeicmi mu'a

>.i ca lo donri ko'a ku'i se vitke le xisycrida
>ca le nu gunka ne'i le tricecmu li'u
>   .i lu je'e ru'e li'u
>   .i lu ko'a joi ko'e ve'a cadzu

i li'a le vitke goi ko'e je'upei

>.i ba ku le nanmu cu co'a se farna le
>xisycrida gi'e cusku lu .ei mi ca tugni le du'u lo xisycrida cu zasti  .i

i lu mi do ca tugni li'u a lu mi ca tugni fi le du'u co'e li'u

>ku'i do'o na dacti co remna bo simsa li'u  .i lu do troci co cosku ma li'u
>preti fi le xisycrida  .ije le nanmu cu spuda fi lu mi'o pu klama barda
>rokci

i zo cusku i lu klama lo barda rokci li'u xu

>.i mi nitcu le nu cpare  .ije za'a do cadzu co pagre  .i pu klama le
>barda ke tricu grana poi farlu nenri le dargu  .i mi nitcu le nu cpana
cadzu
>le grana  .ije do cadzu co pagre li'u  .i le di'u te spuda cu se cfipu le
>xisycrida  .i le xisycrida cusku

i claxu zo cu

>lu paunai xu do ji'a na zgana le nu mi'o pu
>cadzu le cimnalsra foldi

i la'e zo ji'a cu srana la'e zo do na.e le nu cadzu i pe'ipei

>.i kakne le nu pagre le cimdilnu kei fa mi .e do
>.i la'e di'u cu se nibli le du'u mi'o mutce jarmau le cimdilnu li'u li'u

i du'e zo li'u oi u'i i ku'i drani

>   .i lu .ue li'u
>   .i lu ki mi'o go'a doi sofi,es

i go'a ki'a

>.i loi pruxi ka'e pagre loi vorgai co
>gasta  .i lo xarnykarce .a loi bamvinji na kakne le nu porpygau lo marji be
>lo pruxi li'u

i zo cakykarce pe'ipei i pe'i le karce poi xarnu cu dukse le ka prenygau


i ui melbi lisri gi'e melbi xe fanva ki'e doi tsali

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:55:48 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: cizra



>.u'i .u'i zo pol0 e zo 1pri e zo 5pli e loi simsa cu ja'a gismu du'o le
>genturfa'i


i u'i ie 3zra i bau le s10  9'iroi loi p2nu cu 6jmi 3ska zoi sy salu2 sy
peseba'i zoi sy saludos sy

co'o mi'e ?rxes





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. zo go'a
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. zo cusku
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. ethos or ethnos?
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      4. Re: zo cusku
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: zo go'a
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: zo go'a
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      7. Re: la snedza
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
      8. Re: la snedza
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:29:28 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: zo go'a

> >   .i lu .ue li'u
> >   .i lu ki mi'o go'a doi sofi,es
>
>i go'a ki'a

mu'a mutce jarmau le cimdilnu .i mu'a kakne le nu pagre le cimdilnu  .i xu
da xaurmau ke cusku tadji

co'o mi'e tsali



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:43:40 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: zo cusku

> >ku'i do'o na dacti co remna bo simsa li'u  .i lu do troci co cosku ma
>li'u
> >preti fi le xisycrida  .ije le nanmu cu spuda fi lu mi'o pu klama barda
> >rokci
>
>i zo cusku

zo cusku se nitcu xu  .i le bangrnorge se fanva cu ji'a claxu tu'a zo cusku

co'o mi'e tsali



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:21:13 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: ethos or ethnos?

coi rodo mi'e .evgenis.

There are exactly 6 gismu in the current list whose definition includes the
word "ethos":

budjo [ buj bu'o ] Buddhist
    x1 pertains to the Buddhist culture/religion/ethos in aspect x2
    (cf. latna, lijda)

dadjo [ daj ] Taoist
    x1 pertains to the Taoist culture/ethos/religion in aspect x2
    (cf. lijda, jegvo)

gugde [ gug gu'e ] country
    x1 is the country of peoples x2 with land/territory x3; (people/territory
relationship)
    [also sovereignty, domestic (as opposed to foreign), nation (when not
referring to ethos)]; (cf. turni, natmi, jecta, tumla, tutra, lanci)

kulnu [ klu ] culture
    x1 [mass of ideas, customs, skills, arts] is culture of nation/ethos x2
(mass); x1 is ethnic
    [(note that x2 is NOT individual; culture is what is shared among people
and is not an individual trait)]; (cf. cmavo list ka'u, cmavo list ku'u, natmi,
cecmu)

slovo [ lov lo'o ] Slavic
    x1 reflects Slavic language/culture/ethos in aspect x2
    (cf. softo, rusko, vukro)


I suspect that in the definitions of {gugde}, {kulnu} and {slovo}
the word "ethos" should be changed to "ethnos".

According to WordNet:

ethos n : the distinctive spirit of a people or an era; "the Greek ethos"

ethnos n : people of the same race or nationality who share a distinctive
culture [syn: {ethnic group}]

co'o



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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:32:24 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: zo cusku


>> >ku'i do'o na dacti co remna bo simsa li'u  .i lu do troci co cosku ma
>>li'u
>> >preti fi le xisycrida  .ije le nanmu cu spuda fi lu mi'o pu klama barda
>> >rokci
>>
>>i zo cusku
>
>zo cusku se nitcu xu  .i le bangrnorge se fanva cu ji'a claxu tu'a zo cusku

i oi mi na pu drani ciksi i do pu ciska zo cosku enai zo cusku
i tolvai pinka

co'o mi'e xorxes





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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:38:23 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: zo go'a

>> >   .i lu .ue li'u
>> >   .i lu ki mi'o go'a doi sofi,es
>>
>>i go'a ki'a
>
>mu'a mutce jarmau le cimdilnu .i mu'a kakne le nu pagre le cimdilnu  .i xu
>da xaurmau ke cusku tadji


i mi na birti le du'u makau drani tadji le nu pilno zo go'a
i xu ka'e sinxa lo bridi poi le cusku pu sitna

co'o mi'e xorxes







_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:33:28 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: zo go'a

> >> >   .i lu .ue li'u
> >> >   .i lu ki mi'o go'a doi sofi,es

> >>i go'a ki'a

> >mu'a mutce jarmau le cimdilnu .i mu'a kakne le nu pagre le cimdilnu  .i
>xu
> >da xaurmau ke cusku tadji

>i mi na birti le du'u makau drani tadji le nu pilno zo go'a
>i xu ka'e sinxa lo bridi poi le cusku pu sitna

ja'a kakne doi xorxes  .i mi sitna le 19moi pagbu be la cukta  .i zoi gy.

   Additionally, pro-sumti or pro-bridi in the quoting sentence can refer to
words appearing in the quoted sentence when ``lu ... li'u'' is used
gy

co'o mi'e tsali



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:38:27 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: la snedza

.i .a'u zo'o ba'acu'i mi lojbo ciska ne semau lojbo tcidu

>>.i leka clatei pu se simsa le cabjeftu mi .i mi na pu sipna rauroi
>
> i zo'o pau do na pu sipna zeroi le jeftu ije'ibo do na pu sipna
> pirauroi le jeftu

.i mi na'e birti cusku di'e .i mi zeroi pu sipna fi'o temci
me'i bi cacra .i xu da poi jufra cu pluja seme'a di'u

>> .i le tcepei pu piso'iroi nandu mi .ija'e mi pu piso'uroi zukte
>
> i le tcepei ki'a i xu le nu tcepei i do mutce le ka pensi ma

.i mi pu te smuni zo tcepei la'e lu pensi .a'icai.ai .i mi pu
menli tatpi

> i cinri i do pu su'oroi klama gi'i ca pare'u klama
> i a'o do ba skicu le do se lifri mi'a

.i mi pu su'oreroi klama la snedza .i le du'u pamoi vitke kei pu temci
na'e clani ki'u le mi pendo pu to'e nelci le sance .i le du'u remoi
vitke kei goi ko'a pu temci clani .i ko'a pu ranji re cacra .i le sance
pe la snedza ku ku goi ko'e cu pluja .i ko'e cu cenba le ka dikslicai kei
fo le stedu muvdu .i ko'e cu to'e sarxe ja'e ko'e cu gunma so'i
fapro tonga .i zo'o ko'e cu simsa le cizra minji sance .i .u'e
ko'e ru'i cenba gi'e ru'i stodi .i go mi ze'u stali la snedza gi
le tirna pe mi cu carmi ba le nu mi cliva la snedza .i .uinai
mi na'e vitke la snedza ca le prulamjeftu ki'u la snedza pu na'e
te plicru .oi

>> go do na se sevzi gi do na'e frica le mulno munje
>
> i lo prenu no'u na'ebomi cu jinvi le du'u ro da sevzi le mulno munje

.i .ui mi nelci di'u


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Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:12:15 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: la snedza

>.i mi na'e birti cusku di'e .i mi zeroi pu sipna fi'o temci
>me'i bi cacra .i xu da poi jufra cu pluja seme'a di'u

i do zeroi sipna ze'i lo cacra be li me'i bi

>>> .i le tcepei pu piso'iroi nandu mi .ija'e mi pu piso'uroi zukte
>>
>> i le tcepei ki'a i xu le nu tcepei i do mutce le ka pensi ma
>
>.i mi pu te smuni zo tcepei la'e lu pensi .a'icai.ai .i mi pu
>menli tatpi

i ki'anai i do tcepei i le tcepei cu du do i le nu tcepei cu nandu do

>.i mi pu su'oreroi klama la snedza

i zo snedza ji zo snezda cu drani

>.i le du'u pamoi vitke kei pu temci
>na'e clani ki'u le mi pendo pu to'e nelci le sance .i le du'u remoi
>vitke kei goi ko'a pu temci clani .i ko'a pu ranji re cacra .i le sance
>pe la snedza ku ku goi ko'e cu pluja .i ko'e cu cenba le ka dikslicai kei
>fo le stedu muvdu .i ko'e cu to'e sarxe ja'e ko'e cu gunma so'i
>fapro tonga .i zo'o ko'e cu simsa le cizra minji sance .i .u'e
>ko'e ru'i cenba gi'e ru'i stodi

i zabna cizra i mi na pu djuno le du'u lo la'e di'u simsa cu zasti
i do xabju ma i xu la kalifornias i to mi sruma le du'u ky la'enrai
se diklo sy toi

>.i go mi ze'u stali la snedza gi
>le tirna pe mi cu carmi ba le nu mi cliva la snedza

i cinri i xu le jalge cu ze'u stali ba le nu cliva

co'o mi'e xorxes





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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: ethos or ethnos?
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. stidi seji'o le mekso
           From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:25:18 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: ethos or ethnos?

At 02:21 PM 5/11/99 +0200, you wrote:
>From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
>
>coi rodo mi'e .evgenis.
>
>There are exactly 6 gismu in the current list whose definition includes the
>word "ethos":
>
>budjo [ buj bu'o ] Buddhist
>    x1 pertains to the Buddhist culture/religion/ethos in aspect x2
>    (cf. latna, lijda)
>
>dadjo [ daj ] Taoist
>    x1 pertains to the Taoist culture/ethos/religion in aspect x2
>    (cf. lijda, jegvo)
>
>gugde [ gug gu'e ] country
>    x1 is the country of peoples x2 with land/territory x3;
(people/territory
>relationship)
>    [also sovereignty, domestic (as opposed to foreign), nation (when not
>referring to ethos)]; (cf. turni, natmi, jecta, tumla, tutra, lanci)
>
>kulnu [ klu ] culture
>    x1 [mass of ideas, customs, skills, arts] is culture of nation/ethos x2
>(mass); x1 is ethnic
>    [(note that x2 is NOT individual; culture is what is shared among people
>and is not an individual trait)]; (cf. cmavo list ka'u, cmavo list ku'u,
natmi,
>cecmu)
>
>slovo [ lov lo'o ] Slavic
>    x1 reflects Slavic language/culture/ethos in aspect x2
>    (cf. softo, rusko, vukro)
>
>
>I suspect that in the definitions of {gugde}, {kulnu} and {slovo}
>the word "ethos" should be changed to "ethnos".
>
>According to WordNet:
>
>ethos n : the distinctive spirit of a people or an era; "the Greek ethos"
>
>ethnos n : people of the same race or nationality who share a distinctive
>culture [syn: {ethnic group}]

My dictionary does not even have the word "ethnos" but rather lists only
the synonym, and included culture along with spirit for "ethos".  This may
be Americanism to include ethnicity of a culture under "ethos".

Note that all the examples of gismu where I used "ethos", it is pertaining
to the ideas of some group of people that are linked by that shared
culture, rather than by political/governmental ties, and for the most part
I was dealing with multinational cultures.  I doubt that followers of
Buddhism could be consider an ethnic group or as you equate it, "ethnos",
but they do share some commonalty of culture and ideas, which fits your
definition of "ethos".

lojbsb
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:30:31 -0500
   From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: stidi seji'o le mekso


coi rodo
mi nelci le lojbo ke mekso ciste iku'i ia du'ecla i le cabna tadji cu
panra lepu'u lo cmaci cu se ciska secau le sinxa i mu'a zoi my one plus
negative one equals zero my i tolplixau bau lo cmaci
i ja'o e'u da finti le'i sinxa be le'i mekso cmavo i ro mekso sumti cu
se steci le sinxa i le sinxa na nitcu le remna sinxa i le mekso ciste cu
binxo tordu je frilymau gau le nunga'i
co'o be'i le djan maynat



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: la snezda
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: la snezda
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: stidi seji'o le mekso
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:34:55 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: la snezda

coi

>>.i mi na'e birti cusku di'e .i mi zeroi pu sipna fi'o temci
>>me'i bi cacra .i xu da poi jufra cu pluja seme'a di'u
>
>i do zeroi sipna ze'i lo cacra be li me'i bi

.i .ua mi ca'o se cnino lo pilno be zo be

>>.i mi pu su'oreroi klama la snedza
>
>i zo snedza ji zo snezda cu drani

.i .ua mi srera .i zo snezda drani

>>.i le du'u pamoi vitke kei pu temci
>>na'e clani ki'u le mi pendo pu to'e nelci le sance .i le du'u remoi
>>vitke kei goi ko'a pu temci clani .i ko'a pu ranji re cacra .i le sance
>>pe la snedza ku ku goi ko'e cu pluja .i ko'e cu cenba le ka dikslicai kei
>>fo le stedu muvdu .i ko'e cu to'e sarxe ja'e ko'e cu gunma so'i
>>fapro tonga .i zo'o ko'e cu simsa le cizra minji sance .i .u'e
>>ko'e ru'i cenba gi'e ru'i stodi
>
>i zabna cizra i mi na pu djuno le du'u lo la'e di'u simsa cu zasti
>i do xabju ma i xu la kalifornias i to mi sruma le du'u ky la'enrai
>se diklo sy toi

.i .ia mi jijnu fi le se jalge be la'e di'u .iku'i mi xabju la nu,iork
.i la snezda cu simsa le ka me la kalifornias.
.i xu di'u drani pilno zo me

>>.i go mi ze'u stali la snedza gi
>>le tirna pe mi cu carmi ba le nu mi cliva la snedza
>
>i cinri i xu le jalge cu ze'u stali ba le nu cliva

.i mi se cfipu co milxe
.i xu do pu te preti fe le carmi tirna se ranji
.i le carmi tirna pu ranji ji'i re cacra
.iku'i la'edi'u cu nandu se pajni ki'u le nu le jalge pu clani se fanmo
.iru'a .u'i mi ca'o carmi tirna

ni'o
.i'o mi ca'o cilre fi la lojban. fo le nu casnu

co'o


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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:13:34 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: la snezda

>.i .ia mi jijnu fi le se jalge be la'e di'u .iku'i mi xabju la nu,iork
>.i la snezda cu simsa le ka me la kalifornias.
>.i xu di'u drani pilno zo me

i me zo me drani i ku'i pe'i la snedza cu ba'e simlu le ka
me la kalifornias i la snedza ka'e simsa lo drata stuzi enai
lo selkai

>>i cinri i xu le jalge cu ze'u stali ba le nu cliva
>
>.i mi se cfipu co milxe
>.i xu do pu te preti fe le carmi tirna se ranji

i go'i i mi kucli le du'u xukau ka'e sidju loi prenu poi
naltirna gi'a tinble

>.i le carmi tirna pu ranji ji'i re cacra
>.iku'i la'edi'u cu nandu se pajni ki'u le nu le jalge pu clani se fanmo
>.iru'a .u'i mi ca'o carmi tirna

i xamgu

>ni'o
>.i'o mi ca'o cilre fi la lojban. fo le nu casnu

i mi roroi cusku le du'u la'e di'u xagrai tadji le nu cilre
co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:04:49 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: stidi seji'o le mekso

la djan maynat cusku di'e

>mi nelci le lojbo ke mekso ciste

i oi mi na go'i  i dukse le ka pluja

>iku'i ia du'ecla i le cabna tadji cu
>panra lepu'u lo cmaci cu se ciska secau le sinxa i mu'a zoi my one plus
>negative one equals zero my i tolplixau bau lo cmaci

i ie mi do tugni i le glico na.enai le lojbo cu mapti le ka basti
le cmaci bangu

>i ja'o e'u da finti le'i sinxa be le'i mekso cmavo i ro mekso sumti cu
>se steci le sinxa i le sinxa na nitcu le remna sinxa i le mekso ciste cu
>binxo tordu je frilymau gau le nunga'i

i pe'i le ka clani na vajrai le ka nabmi  i ka'e ciska lu li 1 + -1 = li 0
li'u
gi'e bacru lu li pa su'i ni'upa du li no li'u i la'e di'u sampu i ku'i do
stidi le nu pilno ma le nu sinxa lu li ri'o te'a xyboi re ku'e xyboi
no bi'o cy du li pi'i fe'i ci ku'e te'a cyboi ci li'u i pe'i no sinxa porsi
ba
sidju

co'o mi'e xorxes




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_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Posting in Lojban
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:05:16 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Posting in Lojban

Those of you who keep an eye on the AUXLANG list will be familiar
with my habit of slipping bits of Lojban into postings on other
subjects (zo'o in that particular case, usually
Occidental-bashing).  The following quote, however, is my first
all-Lojban posting to a non-Lojban list
(phil-counsel@xxxxxxx.xxxx.  I am not sure whether this is a good
way to promote Lojban or just linguistic spamming - I was going
to write in English but suddenly got this Lojbanic urge.  Some of
my lujvo may be a bit malformed, though ;-)


> la su.xainz. cusku di'e
> [Sue hines expresses the-following]
>
> > I am totally horrified that people who are supposedly dispensing advice on the love
> > or pursuit of wisdom should become mean and rude.  Having revealed a lack of wisdom
> > in the first place by trying to brand a function older than Socrates himself, they
> > compound it by engaging in petty feuding. I do not have a formal, much less
> > academic background in philosophy, but it does not take a doctorate in "the study
> > or science of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge" to spot rottenness
> > at the core.
> >
>
> .uu.u'i.iecu'i
> [sympathy coupled with amusement and neither-agreement-nor-disagreement]
>
> la su.xainz. goi ko'a ba'usku loi drani
> [Sue Hines henceforth-referred-to-as "ko'a" exaggeratedly-expresses a-mass-of true-things]
>
> .i ku'i pe'i na ko'a ze'e jimpe lei samymri cu'u la clomit. goi ko'e
> [however, I-opine it-is-not-the-case-that "ko'a" (i.e. Sue) during-the-whole-time-period understands
> the-mass-of e-mail expressed-by Schlomit henceforth-referred-to-as "ko'e"]
>
> mi cnikansa
> [I empathise]
>
> za'a ko'e na'e nelci lei nunmenmikce
> [I-observe "ko'e" (i.e. Schlomit) not likes the-mass-of event-mental-medic (i.e.
> psychiatry/psychotherapy)]
>
> .i ko'e na'e djice lenu zoi gy. philosophical counselling gy. cu binxo cmene lo nunmenmikce
> ["ko'e" not wants the-event-of "philosophical counselling" become the-name-of a psychotherapy]
>
> .i .ie
> [I agree]
>
> .i ba'unai ku'i lei selcusku ko'e ku na'e clite
> [understatement: however the-mass-of that-expressed by "ko'e" not polite]
>
> .uenai ko'a drife'u
> [I-am-not-surprised "ko'a" sad-angry]
>
> .i ku'i ze'eze'oku lo prijskepre ka'e nalclite mu'u la dai,odjiniz.
> [however all-the-time-everywhere a philosopher can be-impolite as-exemplified-by Diogenes]
>
> doi suzyn. ko na'e drife'u
> [O Susan! be not sad-angry]
>
> lei prijske na'e mintu lei prijskepre
> [the-mass-of philosophy not the-same-as the-mass-of philosophers]
>
> co'o mi'e robin.
> ['bye this-is Robin]
>



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. cunso jufra finti
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. pavyselpagbu lujvo
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:03:04 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: cunso jufra finti

mi di'i se zdile le cunso jufra finti  .i pei lu kenra sodva loi gluta
li'u .i fenki

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:04:00 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili




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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:05:10 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: pavyselpagbu lujvo

za'a zo dja e zo pre e lo simsa cu lujvo du'o le nalmulno vlafanva je
genturfa'i  .i xu drani

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:07:15 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

mi tadni le dotybau .e'i .i'enai vi le ckule .i lo'e nu bacru casnu cu
frili .o'acu'i mi .i lo nu gendra cusku na go'i .i .iaru'e ba noroi ja'a
go'i

ni'o mi milxe co se cfipu le za'i le dotybau cu nandu mi .i sa'enai dy.
simsa la lojban le ka se javni .ije ku'i se'o la lojban. cu frili mi .i ma
krinu la'e di'u

ni'o mi tadni le glibau ji'a  .i lo nu casnu .e lo nu gendra cusku cu
frili mi  .i ku'i le javni be le glibau cu nalsatci mutce

ni'o va'i mi na jimpe fi le krinu be le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili  .i ku'i
ja'a jimpe le du'u mi prami sai la lojban.  .i zu'unai mi na se slabu le
krinu

co'o mi'e tsali



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: pavyselpagbu lujvo
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: pavyselpagbu lujvo
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:47:26 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: pavyselpagbu lujvo

la tsali cusku di'e
>za'a zo dja e zo pre e lo simsa cu lujvo du'o le nalmulno vlafanva je
>genturfa'i  .i xu drani

i zoi ly dja ly e zoi ly pre ly na lojbo valsi i na lujvo
i xu lu zo dja valsi li'u lu zo djavalsi li'u cu frica le ka do bacru ce'u

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:41:51 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: pavyselpagbu lujvo

> >za'a zo dja e zo pre e lo simsa cu lujvo du'o le nalmulno vlafanva je
> >genturfa'i  .i xu drani
>
>i zoi ly dja ly e zoi ly pre ly na lojbo valsi i na lujvo
>i xu lu zo dja valsi li'u lu zo djavalsi li'u cu frica le ka do bacru ce'u

je'e na go'i
.i ja'o le genturfa'i cu cfila

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:39:14 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

la tsali cusku di'e

>ni'o mi milxe co se cfipu le za'i le dotybau cu nandu mi .i sa'enai dy.
>simsa la lojban le ka se javni

xu simsa ue i mi na krici i lei javni pe la lojban cu mutce mutce
le ka sampu i mi senpi le du'u le dotco a lo drata rarbau cu jibni
la lojban le ka sampu javni ce'u i ku'i mi na se slabu le dotco
bangu

>.ije ku'i se'o la lojban. cu frili mi .i ma
>krinu la'e di'u

i pe'i le nu do bai cilre le dotco gi'e bainai cilre la lojban ka'e
pagbu le krinu

>ni'o mi tadni le glibau ji'a  .i lo nu casnu .e lo nu gendra cusku cu
>frili mi  .i ku'i le javni be le glibau cu nalsatci mutce

i pau do tadni gy co'a le nu do nanca ma i la'e di'u ji'a
ka'e ficri'a

co'o mi'e xorxes





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. svenska projekt
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:15:37 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

to dei te spuda la xorxes toi

> >ni'o mi milxe co se cfipu le za'i le dotybau cu nandu mi .i sa'enai dy.
> >simsa la lojban le ka se javni
>
>xu simsa ue i mi na krici i lei javni pe la lojban cu mutce mutce
>le ka sampu i mi senpi le du'u le dotco a lo drata rarbau cu jibni
>la lojban le ka sampu javni ce'u i ku'i mi na se slabu le dotco
>bangu

do jimpe srera  .ija mi cusku srera  .i mi troci co cusku di'e
.i la lojban .e dy. carmi le ka javni cnici  .i ku'i le glibau cu se javni
so'u da

> >ni'o mi tadni le glibau ji'a  .i lo nu casnu .e lo nu gendra cusku cu
> >frili mi  .i ku'i le javni be le glibau cu nalsatci mutce
>
>i pau do tadni gy co'a le nu do nanca ma i la'e di'u ji'a
>ka'e ficri'a

.ie

i ta'o mi tirna ruble  .i seki'unai mi tsali le bacru tadji pe le glibau  .i
ja'o .o'aru'e mi stati le nu bangu pilno

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 00:57:25 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

la tsali cusku di'e
>do jimpe srera  .ija mi cusku srera  .i mi troci co cusku di'e
>.i la lojban .e dy. carmi le ka javni cnici  .i ku'i le glibau cu se javni
>so'u da

i ki'anai  i ku'i pe'i la'e di'u milxe ranmi i lei javni be gy cu
klani li so'i i xu je'u lei dy javni cu cnici co simsa la lojban

>i ta'o mi tirna ruble  .i seki'unai mi tsali le bacru tadji pe le glibau
.i
>ja'o .o'aru'e mi stati le nu bangu pilno

i ju'o za'a do stati le nu pilno la lojban le nu ciska i pe'i le nu bacru
bau la lojban cu filgau tu'a le glico i iepei

co'o mi'e xorxes





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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:32:59 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

to dei te spuda la xorxes toi

> >do jimpe srera  .ija mi cusku srera  .i mi troci co cusku di'e
> >.i la lojban .e dy. carmi le ka javni cnici  .i ku'i le glibau cu se
>javni
> >so'u da

>i ki'anai  i ku'i pe'i la'e di'u milxe ranmi i lei javni be gy cu
>klani li so'i i xu je'u lei dy javni cu cnici co simsa la lojban

pe'i go'i  .i dotybau zo'u mu'a da stura poi simsa le cmavo be zo fa  .i
so'o le dotco ke gasnu valsi cu ckaji le ka pe'a tergismu  .i .u'i le dotco
valsi na simsa le lojbo valsi le ka gerna cinse

>i pe'i le nu bacru bau la lojban cu filgau tu'a le glico i iepei

mi na djuno  .i le nu mi co'a vlipa le glibau cu purci le nu mi co'a vlipa
la lojban.

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:08:56 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: svenska projekt

coi  roodo mi'e .evgenis.

I have found the following message in swedish posted in alt.language.artificial


   >> Forum: alt.language.artificial
      >> Thread: svenska projekt!
         >> Message 1 of 1


Subject:
      svenska projekt!
Date:
      1999/05/16
Author:
      Johan Persson <someone@xxxxxx.xxx>

---message in swedish----

Hej Hej.

Jag letar efter personer som vill vara med i ett projekt som
jag tnker dra igng. Jag vill starta ett projekt som bygga
om svenskans grammatik fr att mer likna grammatik till
logiska sprk som t.ex lojban. Men jag r sjlvklart ppen
till alla ideer.

Om ni r intresserade av detta s hr av er!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Johan Persson
  email: tycer@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx
hpage: http://hem.passagen.se/tycer
    icq: 24627900


Apparently the guy has some project related to Lojban. Can someone understand
what this is all about?

coi


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. svenska projekt
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Fwd: Re: svenska projekt
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:14:42 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: svenska projekt

>Hej Hej.
>
>Jag letar efter personer som vill vara med i ett projekt som
>jag tnker dra igng. Jag vill starta ett projekt som bygga
>om svenskans grammatik fr att mer likna grammatik till
>logiska sprk som t.ex lojban. Men jag r sjlvklart ppen
>till alla ideer.
>
>Om ni r intresserade av detta s hr av er!

Quick-and-dirty translation:

>Howdy doody.

>I'm looking for people who want to participate in a project I intend >to
>initiate.  I want to start a project to rebuild the Swedish >language's
>grammar in order to be more similar to logical languages, >like, for
>instance, Lojban.  But I'm of course open to all ideas.

>If you are interested, please let me know.

He's obviously insane.

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:50:09 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Fwd: Re: svenska projekt

Forwarded message:
From uucp@xxxxx.xxx.xxx Fri May 21 17:34:24 1999
From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Message-ID: <9905210952.0DV4Q00@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx>
Date: Fri, 21 May 99 09:52:09
Subject: [lojban] svens
To: esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx
Organization: [ Internet Email: $30/Year! Call 708-795-4442 ]
Content-Length: 2135



 > From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
 >
 > coi  roodo mi'e .evgenis.
 >
 > I have found the following message in swedish posted in
 > alt.language.artificial
 >
 >
   >>> Forum: alt.language.artificial
 >       >> Thread: svenska projekt!
 >          >> Message 1 of 1
 >
 >
 > Subject:
 >       svenska projekt!
 > Date:
 >       1999/05/16
 > Author:
 >       Johan Persson <someone@xxxxxx.xxx>
 >
 > ---message in swedish----
 >
 > Hej Hej.
 >
 > Jag letar efter personer som vill vara med i ett projekt som
 > jag tnker dra igng. Jag vill starta ett projekt som bygga
 > om svenskans grammatik fr att mer likna grammatik till
 > logiska sprk som t.ex lojban. Men jag r sjlvklart ppen
 > till alla ideer.
 >
 > Om ni r intresserade av detta s hr av er!
 >
 > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 > Johan Persson
 >   email: tycer@xxx.xxxxxxxx.xx
 > hpage: http://hem.passagen.se/tycer
 >     icq: 24627900
 >
 >
 > Apparently the guy has some project related to Lojban. Can someone
 > understand what this is all about?
 >
 > coi


 Okay, I'm an American grandkid of Swedes, and my Swedish is not
 as robust as I hope to make it some day, but I can get the gist of
 this.  I might later peruse it further with a decent translating
 dictionary (hmm, gotta buy one of those), but on a first reading
 you were quite right.


 --(rough summary translation, made without adequate reference
     materials and not intended to be precise nor complete)---

 Hello there!

 I'm seeking people to join me in a project to construct
 a Swedish grammar for logical languages, for example Lojban.
 I'm open to all ideas.

 ---------------------------------------------------------------

 Me, my Swedish is .. hmm, tolerable for easy social occasions,
 and my Lojban is - just heard of it, not properly started.
 Still, I have a good head for languages and translations, whether
 colloquial or literal, and if some real experts step up to the
 plate, you might persuade me to be of some use, and I would
 LOVE to see this project go somewhere!




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. xa'unro'a xibi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:51:32 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: xa'unro'a xibi

cerni le da'amoi pele mubyspe le da'amoi pele dormidju
(Eleven o'clock in the morning; day before the wedding.)
.i co'a nu fonxa (The phone rings.) .i co'e fa ko'a goi
lemi bavyspe (Djuna gets it.) .i ze'i sanli co to'e
sezmu'u (She stands frozen for a moment) .icabo flira
co frumu joi nu se cfipu (with a look of frowning
bewilderment.) .ibabo fonxa ganlo (Hangs the phone up.)
.i masno bacru ledu'utu'e diklo vecnu bo pulji (Slowly
says that that was the State Comptroller.) .i .uecai ba'o
dicra le barja co ca'onu jukpa je vecnu kei ku pe le ko'e
goi ko'a .e mi ge'u banli sakta joi nanba (They'd shut
down the bakery that was making our wedding cake!)
.ini'ibo ko'e fu'icu'i nu'o cpacu ko'i goi le saktynanba
ti'u fu'epo'o li pa bi'i li pa pimu fu'u (Which meant that
we would have to pick it up ourselves, between one &
one-thirty only.) .i nitcu ko'o goi le lenku brakarce
ge'u lenu muvdu ko'i fo le barja fi rixini'upa (We
needed an airconditioned truck to move it to a new place.)
.i nitcu le cnino poi muvdu fi ke'a tu'u (And a new place
to move it to...) .i .iicai (Yikes!)

.i ba tu'a so'o fonxa kuku ko'e sutra klama (After several
calls we rushed out.) .i mi'a klama le jaivi tu'a ko'o fu
ko'u goi leko'a karce (We went to the truck place in
Djuna's car.) .ibabo nu'i mi fo ko'o nu'u ko'a fo ko'u
klama fe le jaivi ko'i (Then i drove the truck, with Djuna
following, to the bakery.) .i carmi masno karcygri (The
traffic crawled.) .i  ca'obo .o'unai mi zgana lenuke le
junla cu kancu le tcika (I watched the clock count the
time all the while (stress!).) .i co'u klama sekai lekake
leni mlecu le fanmo fo ce'u kei cu muntu li vo ke'e (We got
there with four minutes to spare.) .i ko'a ko'i slabu
cuxyviska va'o le sorcu (Djuna recognized our cake in the
back.).i ko'i cimei pagbu (It was in three parts) gi'e
ba'o sakta matne dasni (& already iced.) .i .i'unai na'e
drani leka cmene (The name on it was wrong (what!).)
.iseni'inaibo .uocai ko'e ko'i lebna (We took it anyway
(eureka!).) .i leko'a mensi co'u zbasu (Djuna's sister
finished it for us.) .i ta'onai le mubyspe cu snada co
banli (And the wedding was a great success.)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:47:33 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

la tsali cu cusku di'e

>pe'i go'i  .i dotybau zo'u mu'a da stura poi simsa le cmavo be zo fa

to re gerna pinka zo'u pamai lo sumti enai lo brivla ka'e se pilno
le nu tisna lo me zo zo'u jufypau ije remai lo sumti enai lo brivla
ka'e se jadni lo me zo poi jufypau toi

i le glibau zo'u lo stura cu simsa lei cmavo be zo bai ije lo stura
cu simsa lei cmavo be zo le ije lo stura cu simsa lei cmavo
be zo pa ije lo stura cu simsa lei cmavo be zo poi ije li'o li'o

>.i
>so'o le dotco ke gasnu valsi cu ckaji le ka pe'a tergismu

i xu simsa lo glibau jufra no'umu'a zoi gy John gives Mary
flowers gy a zoi gy Mary shows her friends her new car gy

> .i .u'i le dotco
>valsi na simsa le lojbo valsi le ka gerna cinse

i ckire le cevni uizo'o

>>i pe'i le nu bacru bau la lojban cu filgau tu'a le glico i iepei
>
>mi na djuno  .i le nu mi co'a vlipa le glibau cu purci le nu mi co'a vlipa
>la lojban.

i mi go'i i ia ro ca jbopre go'i i ku'i mi zo'u filgau fa le nu co'e
bau la lojban

co'o mi'e xorxes





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: xa'unro'a xibi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 01:08:00 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: xa'unro'a xibi

I hope everybody is reading these texts that Michael is
sending because they're excelent Lojban material.
His usage is very Lojbanic in the sense that it is not
just a calque of English expressions. Here I make some
comments about the last one, mainly about minor
grammar points, but also some on usage.

>cerni le da'amoi pele mubyspe le da'amoi pele dormidju
>(Eleven o'clock in the morning; day before the wedding.)

I can't find mub- in the rafsi list, but I assume {mubyspe}
must be {mu'e speni}. But shouldn't it be {le da'amoi
pe le purci be le mubyspe}? The one-before-last  _before_
the marriage, otherwise, if it's the one-before-last
of the marriage, it would be the day before the divorce!

{mubyspe}, or simply {nunspe} is the whole marriage,
not just the wedding. {nunspebi'o}, or {nunco'aspe}
would be the wedding.

{le da'amoi pe le dormidju} is even more troublesome
because here you have to guess that you're talking about
hours. The x3 of cerni is really for spatial location, but
since I think it doesn't make much sense to have a defined
place for that I don't mind using it for time location as well.
But how can you tell it's the penultimate hour (before)
noon and not the penultimate minute, or even the
penultimate cup of coffee you had before noon?
Maybe it works, I guess hours is the most likely
interpretation.


>.i co'a nu fonxa (The phone rings.) .i co'e fa ko'a goi
>lemi bavyspe (Djuna gets it.)

{co'a nu fonxa} is very metaphorical. After all, the event
of something being a telephone had already started
before it rang, even if nobody was paying attention,
but it's a nice metaphor, as if the phone comes to
existence when it starts to ring.

But I doubt I would have gotten the second one without
the help of the translation. The {fa} is funny, because
{co'e} could be anything, so you could use it to stand
for the {se broda} of whatever {broda} you had in mind
and not used {fa}. It suggests an agent, since many
selbri have agents in the x1, but {gau} would have
been better for that. Why not {ko'a spuda}?

If I hadn't had the translation, I would have probably
guessed "it was my fiancee (on the phone)", rather
than "my fiancee gets it".

>.i ze'i sanli co to'e
>sezmu'u (She stands frozen for a moment)

{muvdu} is non-agentive, but I know that in some old
gismu lists it still appears as agentive. So it should
be just {muvdu} instead of {sezmu'u}.

I was always unhappy with {to'e muvdu} for immobile
because that is not the opposite of "x1 moves to x2
from x3 via x4". It is the opposite of "x1 moves/is not still".
In some sense {to'e desku} would be much better,
even though in terms of the English keywords it
doesn't sound so good.

> .icabo flira
>co frumu joi nu se cfipu (with a look of frowning
>bewilderment.)

I don't like {frumu joi nu se cfipu} because you are mixing
a person with an event of someone being confused.
Why not just {frumu joi se cfipu}? Or else {nunfrumu joi
nu se cfipu}, or {nu frumu joi se cfipu}.

>.ibabo fonxa ganlo (Hangs the phone up.)
>.i masno bacru ledu'utu'e diklo vecnu bo pulji (Slowly
>says that that was the State Comptroller.)

You can't use {tu'e} inside a du'u (or any NU clause),
that's just not grammatical. Whether you can sensibly
use a du'u as the x2 of bacru is for a much longer
discussion.

> .i .uecai ba'o
>dicra le barja co ca'onu jukpa je vecnu kei ku pe le ko'e
>goi ko'a .e mi ge'u banli sakta joi nanba (They'd shut
>down the bakery that was making our wedding cake!)

{ca'o} is not grammatical in that position. Tenses can
only tag the whole selbri, not only some part of the tanru.
But you could say {le bajra co nu ca'o jukpa je vecnu}
instead. {kei ku} is not wrong, but unnecessary.

>.ini'ibo ko'e fu'icu'i nu'o cpacu ko'i goi le saktynanba
>ti'u fu'epo'o li pa bi'i li pa pimu fu'u (Which meant that
>we would have to pick it up ourselves, between one &
>one-thirty only.)

{iseni'ibo} marks the entailed event.

>.i nitcu ko'o goi le lenku brakarce
>ge'u lenu muvdu ko'i fo le barja fi rixini'upa (We
>needed an airconditioned truck to move it to a new place.)

{muvgau} instead of {muvdu}.
{rixini'upa} is very creative.

>.i nitcu le cnino poi muvdu fi ke'a tu'u (And a new place
>to move it to...) .i .iicai (Yikes!)

I guess this {tu'u} means that all this was being said
by ko'a, but it's not grammatical like that. Besides, you
used the word ko'a in the middle, which ko'a would
not have used, so you can't have been quoting her.
It works just as well if it's the narrator telling all those
things.

>.i ba tu'a so'o fonxa kuku ko'e sutra klama (After several
>calls we rushed out.)

{so'o fonxa} are several phones, I'm not sure what kind
of abstraction is {tu'a} hiding here. Also, you can only have
one {ku} there, but you don't need even one. If you want to
put in all the terminators it's {ba tu'a so'oboi fonxa ku lu'u
ko'e sutra klama vau}, but I don't recommed it.

>.i mi'a klama le jaivi tu'a ko'o fu
>ko'u goi leko'a karce (We went to the truck place in
>Djuna's car.)

You could have used {mi'a goi ko'a joi mi} from the start
to avoid having to use {ko'e}. I see that you are almost
running out of pronouns already!

{le jaivi tu'a ko'o} doesn't work. {jaivi} is like {se}, it can only
be used in front of a brivla, not a sumti. You could say
{le jaivi me ko'o}, or just {le ko'o stuzi} for the truck place.

>.ibabo nu'i mi fo ko'o nu'u ko'a fo ko'u
>klama fe le jaivi ko'i (Then i drove the truck, with Djuna
>following, to the bakery.)

oi termsets! I don't like them. It should be either
{nu'i ge mi fu ko'o [nu'u] gi ko'a fu ko'u [nu'u] klama
fe le jaivi me ko'i}, where both {nu'u}s are elidable or
{mi ce'e fu ko'o pe'e je ko'a ce'e fu ko'u klama li'o}
in afterthought mode.

>.i carmi masno karcygri (The
>traffic crawled.) .i  ca'obo .o'unai mi zgana lenuke le
>junla cu kancu le tcika (I watched the clock count the
>time all the while (stress!).)

{ke} is not grammatical there. I would have used
{lei tcika} and others {le'i tcika} instead of {le tcika}.

>.i co'u klama sekai lekake
>leni mlecu le fanmo fo ce'u kei cu muntu li vo ke'e (We got
>there with four minutes to spare.)

ke-ke'e is not grammatical there either.

And there has to be a simpler way of saying that!
For example: {i co'u klama pu le fanmo zi lo mentu be li vo}

>.i ko'a ko'i slabu
>cuxyviska va'o le sorcu (Djuna recognized our cake in the
>back.).i ko'i cimei pagbu (It was in three parts)

I think it should be either {ko'i pagbu cimei} or
{ko'i cimei se pagbu}. It is not a threesome-part but
a threesome of parts or a threesome-whole.

>gi'e
>ba'o sakta matne dasni (& already iced.) .i .i'unai na'e
>drani leka cmene (The name on it was wrong (what!).)
>.iseni'inaibo .uocai ko'e ko'i lebna (We took it anyway
>(eureka!).) .i leko'a mensi co'u zbasu (Djuna's sister
>finished it for us.)

Maybe {mo'u zbasu} is more accurate here.

>.i ta'onai le mubyspe cu snada co
>banli (And the wedding was a great success.)

i a'o le nunspe ze'u snada co banli

co'o mi'e xorxes






_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: xa'unro'a xibi
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: xa'unro'a xibi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Parser/glosser suggestion
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. balvi lojbo nuzba
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:53:58 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: xa'unro'a xibi

la xorxes. cusku di'e

>
> I hope everybody is reading these texts that Michael is
> sending because they're excelent Lojban material.
> His usage is very Lojbanic in the sense that it is not
> just a calque of English expressions.

.ie .i mi di'i tcidu .ui le samymri po'e maikl.



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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:20:52 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: xa'unro'a xibi

>Subject: [lojban] xa'unro'a xibi

xu cfika  .i xu fatci

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:24:58 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Parser/glosser suggestion

I have now been hammering at the beta glosser for about three weeks now,
and I must say that it has worked just fine. The only real objection I
have to it, is the speed and the inelegance of it (but I guess there is
little to do with the latter, since that probably would require someone
with good enough time to recode the thing in C).

However, a significant improvement of it, which I don't think would
require too much efforth, is to use different keywords on the gismu
according to conversion with selma'o SE.

For instance, take the sentence ".o'asai do nelci le lojbo xe fanva".
With the current version of the glosser, this is the result:

o'a      sai                            do   nelci                le
(Pride!) (-strong emotion!) {fond one}: you  fond  {thing liked}: the
UI       CAI                *nelci-1*   KOhA GISMU *nelci-2*      LE

lojbo    xe           fanva
Lojbanic 5th place of translate
GISMU    SE           GISMU

Someone who isn't familiar with the place structure of "fanva", would
have to check the gismu list to find out what "5th place of translate"
refers to. But what I would like to see in an eventual final release of
the glosser, is the following:

o'a      sai                            do   nelci                le
(Pride!) (-strong emotion!) {fond one}: you  fond  {thing liked}: the
UI       CAI                *nelci-1*   KOhA GISMU *nelci-2*      LE

lojbo    xe fanva
Lojbanic translation
GISMU    SE+GISMU

Is it possible to use data from oblique.key to achieve this?

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:26:26 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: balvi lojbo nuzba

to dei cfika toi

coi mi'e jon uen lin di'e lojbo nuzba co se detri li 25 pi'e 5 pi'e 2019

ni'o le lojbo muslo girzu cu pante le javni be le nu na'e pilno
la'e lu ly. .abu li'u ne'i le lojbo cmene  .i lu mi mutce se fanza le za'i
mi bilga le nu pilno le valsi po'u mu'a zo .aLEX a zo .isLEM li'u se cusku
le ralju be le girzu  .i ri stidi le nu co'a zifre le nu pilno la'e lu ly.
.abu li'u

.i di'u lojbo nuzba mi'e jon uen lin



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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: balvi lojbo nuzba
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:23:18 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: balvi lojbo nuzba

to di'e te sitna le nuzba karni po'u la lojbo cabna zi'e pe de'i
li 26 pi'e 5 pi'e 2019 toi

lei cmima be le xamgu banpli sarji girzu cu pensi'u le tcadu
po'u la svegas pe la nevadas ca le cabdei mu'i le nu lanli le
selstidi be le lojbo muslo girzu be'o pe sera'a le nu pilno
le zo la lerfu porsi le nu ly pagbu lo lojbo cmene i pa le bangu
certu cu te pinka le muslo nunpante le du'u na jetnu fa le
du'u zo islAm na ka'e se pilno bau le drani bangu i zo islAm
e zo monblAn e zo garland e zo atlantas e le simsa sei cy
ciksi cu na'e nabmi i zoi ly alAx ly zo'u ganai da pilno ginai
da snura le nu jimpe srera i lu la bal alAx cevni li'u lu
la bal a la x cevni li'u satci mintu le ka bacru ce'u i xu lei
lojbo muslo cu djica le nu stidi le nu la x cevni





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There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. di'u po'u mi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: di'u po'u mi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: xa'unro'a xibi je'unai
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
      6. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
      7. banzu
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
      8. From pc - on machine translation using Loglan/Lojban
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      9. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:56:35 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: di'u po'u mi

genai lu xa'unro'a xibi li'u gi lu xa'unro'a xiso li'u tcita drani

.ije ja'a fasnu doi tsali


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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:15:00 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: di'u po'u mi

>genai lu xa'unro'a xibi li'u gi lu xa'unro'a xiso li'u tcita drani
>
>..ije ja'a fasnu doi tsali

ja'o do ja'a ca'o speni .uidai

ni'o xu zo xaunro'a cu smuni simsa zoi gy diary gy
.i mu'i ma do pilno lu xibi li'u .enai lu bimoi li'u

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:19:35 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

> >.i
> >so'o le dotco ke gasnu valsi cu ckaji le ka pe'a tergismu
>
>i xu simsa lo glibau jufra no'umu'a zoi gy John gives Mary
>flowers gy a zoi gy Mary shows her friends her new car gy

go'i  .i ku'i pluja zmadu  .i le pe'a tergismu cei broda pe le glico
fasnyvla cu milxe ke simsa simxu  .i le dotco broda cu frica simxu zmadu

> >>i pe'i le nu bacru bau la lojban cu filgau tu'a le glico i iepei
> >
> >mi na djuno  .i le nu mi co'a vlipa le glibau cu purci le nu mi co'a
>vlipa
> >la lojban.
>
>i mi go'i i ia ro ca jbopre go'i i ku'i mi zo'u filgau fa le nu co'e
>bau la lojban

filgau ki'a

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 06:19:40 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili


>go'i  .i ku'i pluja zmadu  .i le pe'a tergismu cei broda pe le glico
>fasnyvla cu milxe ke simsa simxu  .i le dotco broda cu frica simxu zmadu

i ku'i ti'e le dotco sumti cu se tcita le vlatai i le vlatai pe le dotco
cu panra le me zo bai simsa valsi pe le glico

>> >>i pe'i le nu bacru bau la lojban cu filgau tu'a le glico i iepei
>> >
>> >mi na djuno  .i le nu mi co'a vlipa le glibau cu purci le nu mi co'a
>>vlipa
>> >la lojban.
>>
>>i mi go'i i ia ro ca jbopre go'i i ku'i mi zo'u filgau fa le nu co'e
>>bau la lojban
>
>filgau ki'a

oi oi oi i ai reroi zo filmau i ju'oli'a do se cfipu gau mi u'u

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:02:04 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: xa'unro'a xibi je'unai

ckire fi le puzi pinka doi xorxes. i je'e .i .u'u mi
ba'o dukse sutra cusku ku be'u ni'o ji'a spuda la tsali
di'e .i zo xa'unro'a ja'a go'a ni'o zo'o mi zo xi pilno
ki'u ledu'u vo'a srera xarnu co'omi'e maikl.


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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:46:37 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

ge'edai .i da'inaizo'o ca'oku mi na mulno vlipa le
glibau


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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:52:12 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu

go co'a pupyprije gi co'i li'i jimte jimpe


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Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:20:43 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: From pc - on machine translation using Loglan/Lojban

pc sent the following tidbit to me, stimulated by the mention of machine
translation:
>Looking in through One-List the other day, I noticed -- back in the
>discussion of "teach" and "learn" (pretty useful discussion that -- will it
>still be around the next time the question comes up?) -- someone asking
>about Lojban as an intermediate language in machine translation.  Something
>on that line was tried at RAND Corp in 1960-1 with the then-current Loglan,
>which lacked all the useful things Lojban has now (i.e., certified freedom
>from syntactic ambiguity).  The chief problem even then was -- as someone
>noted in the recent messages -- writing the Russian and English (in the RAND
>case) to Loglan programs.  In fact, they never got started because 1) they
>were committed to direct translations (and we remember how good those were
>in the 60's "Good whisky but we ran out of meat")and 2) being logical was in
>effect adding yet another language between each one and Loglan and Russian
>to Russian translation was too much for them.  They also had those problems
>with words; I don't remember "teach" but I do remember color words all over
>the place.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:41:06 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

> >go'i  .i ku'i pluja zmadu  .i le pe'a tergismu cei broda pe le glico
> >fasnyvla cu milxe ke simsa simxu  .i le dotco broda cu frica simxu zmadu
>
>i ku'i ti'e le dotco sumti cu se tcita le vlatai i le vlatai pe le dotco
>cu panra le me zo bai simsa valsi pe le glico

na panra  .i le dotybau zo'u da valsi co simsa le cmavo be zo bai .ije de
vlatai co simsa le cmavo be zo fa

> >>i mi go'i i ia ro ca jbopre go'i i ku'i mi zo'u filgau fa le nu co'e
> >>bau la lojban
> >
> >filgau ki'a

>oi oi oi i ai reroi zo filmau i ju'oli'a do se cfipu gau mi u'u

.uanai zoi filmau  .i ie la lojban le glico cu filmau

co'o mi'e tsali



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 21 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Test, exams and so on
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. srera
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. xa'unro'a xipano
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. banzu co remoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. banzu co cimoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. banzu co vomoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      7. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      8. Re: banzu co vomoi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      9. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     10. banzu co mumoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     11. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     12. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     13. Re: banzu co cimoi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     14. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
     15. test, exam ktp
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
     16. Re: banzu co cimoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
     17. Lojban and Rebol?
           From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
     18. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     19. Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     20. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     21. misc practical questions
           From: Max Kubierschky <max@xxxxxx.xx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:52:26 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Test, exams and so on

ma xamgu xe fanva be'u zoi gy test gy poi ckule srana

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:24:50 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: srera

mi pu ciska di'e .u'u

>.uanai zoi filmau  .i ie la lojban le glico cu filmau

sa
.ua zo filmau  .i ie la lojban le glico cu filmau

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:49:13 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: xa'unro'a xipano

lebi'u clakarce bevri mi'a le xagygusta ce'o le xotli le stuzi
be le speritli ba ri (After the wedding we rode in a limo from
there to a fancy restaurant, & then to a hotel for the night.)
.i dunda piso'o le ritli cidja le karcytro noi friko (We gave the
driver, who hailed from Africa, some of our wedding food.)
.ibabo cerni klama fu le vinji fe la syVE,nyn. (The next
morning we flew to Savannah) noi zasyxa'u fo'a goi le vitke
zdani noi xecto nanca (& stayed in a Victorian bed-&-breakfast)
zi'e ne tu'i le tcadu brapurdi .i'esai (just off a park) .i fo'a se
sruri lei tolci'o zdani .e lei tolci'o je barda tricu pe sekai le
dandu clika ku .i'o (surrounded by old houses & trees
festooned with Spanish moss.) .i mursi .i mlilenku zampanpi
.uisai (Twilight, cool peace.) .i melbi tcila .a'ucai vi'e (Beautiful
details everywhere.) .i mi'a na'o cadzu (Usually we went
walking.) .i .i'icai temci co claxu lo platu sarcu (It was a good
time, without schedules to meet.) .i to'u .e'anaisai xruti (I'm sorry
we had to come back) .i ku'i gleki lenu mi  la djunas. kansa po'o
(but i'm happy wherever Djuna is.)


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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:46:34 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co remoi

da barda dunli levo'a cevni


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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:47:30 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co cimoi

le dimna cu snilerfu co misro


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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:48:21 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co vomoi

na plana fa lo ractu rectu


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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:50:40 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi

>da barda dunli levo'a cevni

.ijo da cevni

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:53:09 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co vomoi

>na plana fa lo ractu rectu

le nakni bakni cu bunre xunre



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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:12:21 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi

di'u misno skina se sitna


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Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:15:39 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co mumoi

krefu le famramkai (The fin de siecle recurs.)


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Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:41:53 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi


>>da barda dunli levo'a cevni
>
>.ijo da cevni

I suppose that both of you meant to have a {roda zo'u} prenex,
but remember that the default quantifier for {da} is {su'o}, so
what you said is in both cases quite trivially true: Michael says
that there is someone as big as their god, very likely to be true,
but nowhere near as interesting a claim as it would be if it were
made about everyone. Tsali completes the phrase saying that
there is someone for whom being as big as their god is
equivalent to being a god, again nowhere near as interesting
as it would be to say that it is true for everyone.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 12
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:25:38 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili


>na panra  .i le dotybau zo'u da valsi co simsa le cmavo be zo bai .ije de
>vlatai co simsa le cmavo be zo fa

i xu le vlatai na mapti lo smuni i pe'i pa vlatai cu srana le gasnu
i pa drata vlatai cu go'i le lifri i pa drata vlatai le terdunda
i pa drata le selpi'o i li'o i xu mi srera i le cmavo be zo fa na
mapti lo smuni

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:38:56 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co cimoi


>le dimna cu snilerfu co misro

i puzu ba'o se ciska gi'e jai nandu fai le nu tolmifygau






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Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:45:36 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi

le jufra cu kaismi co fanva zo'e pe le skina poi se tcita
lu lebu'u terdi cu daplu li'u (The aphorism is an attempt
at a line from "This Island Earth":).i fanva zoi .gy.
"Our size is the size of our god!" .gy.


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Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:03:13 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: test, exam ktp

le selju'o mubycipra .a lo'e xe ctuca .oi cu go'i


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Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:09:17 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co cimoi

.i'oro'e


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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:57:16 -0700
   From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Lojban and Rebol?

A guy named Sassenrath is presenting a new computer language named Rebol
(www.rebol.org).  It's an interesting looking language, but I was
especially facinated by the fact that it's very mutable -- you can easily
replace any and all of the syntactical elements with ones of your own
choosing.

It seems to me -- although I don't know either Rebol or Lojban very well
-- that Rebol might serve well as a test vehicle for a Lojbanic computer
language.  Its parser is just a little bit too unsophisticated (we'd want
a full spaces-irrelevant parser for the real thing), and its source isn't
available (but it doesn't cost money).

If an enhanced Rebol turns out to look interesting, perhaps it'll provide
a guide towards implementing a real Lojban computer programming system.

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
"But you shall not escape my iambics."
           -- Gaius Valerius Catullus


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Message: 18
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:11:22 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi

>le jufra cu kaismi co fanva zo'e pe le skina poi se tcita
>lu lebu'u terdi cu daplu li'u (The aphorism is an attempt
>at a line from "This Island Earth":).i fanva zoi .gy.
>"Our size is the size of our god!" .gy.


Your translation works if you use the universal quantifier,
but not with the existential. Most aphorisms are like that.
A more direct translation also seems to work:
    ma'a le ma'a cevni cu dunli le ka barda

Or maybe it should be {le ka banli}?

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 19
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 02:52:02 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le za'i nandu .e le za'i frili

> >na panra  .i le dotybau zo'u da valsi co simsa le cmavo be zo bai .ije de
> >vlatai co simsa le cmavo be zo fa
>
>i xu le vlatai na mapti lo smuni i pe'i pa vlatai cu srana le gasnu
>i pa drata vlatai cu go'i le lifri i pa drata vlatai le terdunda
>i pa drata le selpi'o i li'o i xu mi srera

so'i fasnyvla zo'u do na srera  .i ku'i le smuni be le vlatai cu se jitro le
fasnyvla

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 20
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 02:57:39 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi

> >>da barda dunli levo'a cevni
> >
> >.ijo da cevni
>
>I suppose that both of you meant to have a {roda zo'u} prenex,
>but remember that the default quantifier for {da} is {su'o}, so
>what you said is in both cases quite trivially true: Michael says
>that there is someone as big as their god, very likely to be true,
>but nowhere near as interesting a claim as it would be if it were
>made about everyone. Tsali completes the phrase saying that
>there is someone for whom being as big as their god is
>equivalent to being a god, again nowhere near as interesting
>as it would be to say that it is true for everyone.

mi troci co cusku di'e

.i le du'u zasti fa le banli dunli be le cevni be vo'a cu nibli le du'u da
se cevni da

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 21
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:05:28 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: Max Kubierschky <max@xxxxxx.xxx
Subject: misc practical questions


FLUENCY
-------
On the Lojban website I've read, that fluency in lojban
not yet has been achieved.
* Is this true? Wrt what definition of fluency?
* For those of you that can speak it to some extent:
  - How would you describe your ability in speaking lojban?
  - How much time did you invest in learning it?
* Do you think that fluency can be achieved as well
  as in some natural second language?

MACHINE TRANSLATIONS
--------------------
My interest in lojban stems from its machine readability
and I wonder if it could be used as an auxiliary language
for internationalization of software and manuals.
* Do you think that medium quality machine translations
  of technical documents from lojban to natural languages
  can be possible in the near future?
  By medium quality I mean translations that are neither
  misleading nor annoying to read. Superb style is not
  requested.
* Is there already work on the way?

---
Max Kubierschky
max@xxxxxx.xx



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Parser/glosser suggestion
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. morsi .e jmive
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
      3. Re: misc practical questions
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      4. sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
      5. Re: misc practical questions
           From: Max Kubierschky <max@xxxxxx.xx>
      6. bridi place structure with unusual tertau
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
      7. Re: misc practical questions
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      8. Re: banzu co remoi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      9. Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
     10. Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:03:39 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Parser/glosser suggestion

At 11:24 PM 5/24/99 -0700, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:
>From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>I have now been hammering at the beta glosser for about three weeks now,
>and I must say that it has worked just fine. The only real objection I
>have to it, is the speed and the inelegance of it (but I guess there is
>little to do with the latter, since that probably would require someone
>with good enough time to recode the thing in C).
>
>However, a significant improvement of it, which I don't think would
>require too much efforth, is to use different keywords on the gismu
>according to conversion with selma'o SE.
>
>For instance, take the sentence ".o'asai do nelci le lojbo xe fanva".
>With the current version of the glosser, this is the result:
>
>o'a      sai                            do   nelci                le
>(Pride!) (-strong emotion!) {fond one}: you  fond  {thing liked}: the
>UI       CAI                *nelci-1*   KOhA GISMU *nelci-2*      LE
>
>lojbo    xe           fanva
>Lojbanic 5th place of translate
>GISMU    SE           GISMU
>
>Someone who isn't familiar with the place structure of "fanva", would
>have to check the gismu list to find out what "5th place of translate"
>refers to. But what I would like to see in an eventual final release of
>the glosser, is the following:
>
>o'a      sai                            do   nelci                le
>(Pride!) (-strong emotion!) {fond one}: you  fond  {thing liked}: the
>UI       CAI                *nelci-1*   KOhA GISMU *nelci-2*      LE
>
>lojbo    xe fanva
>Lojbanic translation
>GISMU    SE+GISMU
>
>Is it possible to use data from oblique.key to achieve this?

Nora asked what you would like to see as the gloss for "ta se klama mi ti"
(you can run it yourself to see what it currently does).

lojbab


----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:10:41 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: morsi .e jmive

.i le nu morsi binxo cu mintu le nu gunma binxo .ije
le nu jmive binxo cu mintu le nu cliva binxo


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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:34:06 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: misc practical questions

At 03:05 PM 5/28/99 +0200, you wrote:
>From: Max Kubierschky <max@xxxxxx.xx>
>FLUENCY
>-------
>On the Lojban website I've read, that fluency in lojban
>not yet has been achieved.
>* Is this true? Wrt what definition of fluency?

Ability to maintain conversation without conscious effort or noticeable
pause to hunt for words or proper grammatical phrasing.  The word hunt is
the weak link, in my opinion, because we simply do not have sufficient
well-defined words in the lexicon to support the  level of speech desired
by the typical college-educated adult who is learning the language.  (By
comparison, I have had fluent conversation in Russian with 5 and 6 year old
Russian kids, but can hardly sustain conversation with adults because of my
lack of sufficient vocabulary).

>* For those of you that can speak it to some extent:
>  - How would you describe your ability in speaking lojban?

When I haver been practicing (not recently), I am able to haltingly sustain
conversation for an indefinite period of time on any subject, without
recourse to dictionary or word list.  I paraphrase around word gaps or coin
new words and phrasings.  My listening comprehension lags my speaking
ability, and I do not always successfully parse others' spoken Lojban (and
I often cannot figure out intent when even mildly erroneous Lojban is spoken).

My wife Nora is somewhat less skilled at speaking, but better at listening
(she listens to me %^).

>  - How much time did you invest in learning it?

Using LogFlash, my wife and I mastered the gismu list (97% accuracy on
recall of words given English keywords) in around 2 months of daily
practice for about an hour.  By that time we had sufficiently mastered the
grammar and enough cmavo to easily sustain conversation between us.  This
was back in 1988 when the grammar and vocabulary were not all that stable,
but even so the instability did not impede us.  Vocabulary learning is key
to Lojban success.

>* Do you think that fluency can be achieved as well
>  as in some natural second language?

Yes.  Nick Nicholas, who is not on the list now, has demonstarted near
fluency - others perceive it as fluent speech, though he himself does not
(and he is a fluent speaker of several 2nd languages both natural and
artificial).

>MACHINE TRANSLATIONS
>--------------------
>My interest in lojban stems from its machine readability
>and I wonder if it could be used as an auxiliary language
>for internationalization of software and manuals.
>* Do you think that medium quality machine translations
>  of technical documents from lojban to natural languages
>  can be possible in the near future?

The limitation is in the natural langauge side of the interface.  If there
is an engine that could generate smooth text from coarse keyword glosses,
we would be very close in Lojban to English, since the parser/glosser can
output coarse keyword glosses.  The major limitation here remains in the
lexicon - too few words are defined well enough for an MT program to
translate them.

>  By medium quality I mean translations that are neither
>  misleading nor annoying to read. Superb style is not
>  requested.
>* Is there already work on the way?

Only to the level of the parser/glosser that I mentioned, which would be
"low quality" by any standard.  Anything higher would take serious work,
probably funded research or graduate-studies research work, because the
person-months of work needed to produce the lexicon and reasonably fast and
sophisticated code are not going to be easily found among volunteers
working occasionally in their spare time.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:20:39 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu

[this is a bit of text i attempted to translate last week.  my plan had
been to go back and proofread it and correct mistakes and rephrase things
more understandably, but, i've found proofreading lojban very hard!
so i'm just posting it as is...]

lu sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu li'u
    tcita le di'e prosa .itu'e

.i le menli po'e le banli prije pe le xintu'a
    pu pencu se benji zi'o le stuna le stici
.i loi remna se cmima loi prije .e loi bebna
.iku'i la tadji na se srana lo berti nolraitru .a lo snanu nolraitru
.i le ralci krasi cu klina je carmi
.i pe'a loi dunda flecu cu rirxe le ka manku po'a
.i le nu jorne be lo dacti cu mintu le nu se xanri
.i le nu penmi be le jicmu cu na'e mintu le nu do bancu
.i loi pagbu lo gunma zo'u le ckini munje le jicmu munje cu ckini
.ijecabo sepli
.i ri ra ckini zu'u gi'e ke fancu drata ke'e zu'unai
.i ri fa'u ra ralte le vo'a stuzi
.i le tarmi cu se jalge le ka le ka se ckaji .e la ke se simlu cu frica
.i le nu sance cu se jalge le nu le ka kufra cu drata le ka to'e kufra
.i le ka manku cu se jalge le nu ro valsi cu to'e frica
.i le ka gusni cu se jalge le nu lo xamgu jufra cu frica lo xlali jufra
.i la vo selci cu xruti ri le ri jicmu
.itaibo lo verba cu xruti lo ri mamta
.i lo fagri cu glare .i lo brife cu to'e cando
.i lo djacu cu cilmo .i lo rokci cu jdari
.i lo kanla cu viska .i lo kerla cu tirna .i lo nazbi cu sumne
.i lo tance cu vu'irga'e lo silna .e lo slari
.i ro fasnu cu sepli
.i le se jalge .e le jalge cu se xruti zi'o le banli zasti
.i le selvla be zo galtu .e zo dizlo cu se pilno co ckini
.i nenri fe le gusni fa le manku
.iku'i ko na troci le nu manku jimpe
.i nenri fe le manku fa le gusni
.iku'i ko na sisku le gusni
.i le gusni .e le manku cu remei
.itaibo lo crane jamfu .e le trixe jamfu cu te cadzu
.i ro fasnu cu jinzi vamji
.ije ckini ro fasnu le ka fancu .e le ka stuzi
.i le ka fadni lifri cu mapti le ka jicmu
.itaibo le tanxe cu mapti le ri drudi
.i le ka jicmu cu kansa le ka ckini
.itaibo lo danti cu penmi lo danti vi le midju vacri
.i .e'u le nu do tricu lo valsi cu jai zi jgari le banli zasti fai do
.i ko na pilno lo manri le nu do pajni
.i ganai do na zgana la tadji gi do na zgana ra ca le nu do mintu ra
.i ganai do mintu la tadji gi ge ri na jibni gi ri na darno
.i ganai do se xanri gi le cmana .e le rirxe cu jbini do ce ko'a
.i .io mi cusku fi ro djica be le nu bancu fe
lu ko na fesxaksu le do temci ca le donri .a le nicte tu'u



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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:40:00 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: Max Kubierschky <max@xxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: misc practical questions

> The limitation is in the natural langauge side of the interface.  If there
> is an engine that could generate smooth text from coarse keyword glosses,
> we would be very close in Lojban to English, since the parser/glosser can
> output coarse keyword glosses.  The major limitation here remains in the
> lexicon - too few words are defined well enough for an MT program to
> translate them.

As far as i understand, a "coarse keyword gloss" is some isomorphic
transcription of lojban, that is more readable to non lojbanists. True?
Have problems similar to the keyword gloss -> english problems yet
been attacked (with or without success) in computer linguistics?

> Only to the level of the parser/glosser that I mentioned, which would be
> "low quality" by any standard.  Anything higher would take serious work,
> probably funded research or graduate-studies research work, because the
> person-months of work needed to produce the lexicon and reasonably fast and
> sophisticated code are not going to be easily found among volunteers
> working occasionally in their spare time.

No doubt that the amount of work needed is high. But how high is it
compared to translating tons of linux manuals to a target language
by hand (which is actually done on a non fundned basis for some
languages)?
I don't think that there is lack of resources on the programming side
of the problem (considering the tremendous amount of free software on
this planet). So the question reduces once again to:
How hard is it as a linguistic problem?

---
Max

P.S: thank you for the quick and accurate answer.




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:54:23 +0100 (BST)
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: bridi place structure with unusual tertau


I'm trying to resolve how the x1..x5 places of a brivla are assigned to
the sumti in the bridi when the tertau takes on one of several unusual
forms.  I don't recall any mention of (1), (3), (4) or (5) in the
reference grammar, although the BNF definition allows them.  I'm fairly
sure of (2), I'm just looking for confirmation.

(1) ko'a brodi broda je brode ko'e

ko'a -> broda1 and brode1
ko'e -> broda2 and brode2

i.e. it means the same as

ko'a brodi broda ko'e gi'e brodi brode ko'e   OR
ko'a brodi broda gi'e brodi brode vau ko'e

(2) ko'a broda co brode ko'e

ko'a -> broda1
ko'e -> brode2

(3) ko'a broda be ko'e be'o ko'i

ko'a -> broda1
ko'e -> broda2
ko'i -> broda3

(4) ko'a broda co brode be ko'e be'o ko'i

ko'a -> broda1
ko'e -> brode2
ko'i -> brode3

(5) ko'a fi ko'e broda be ko'i be'o ko'o

ko'a -> broda1
ko'e -> broda3
ko'i -> broda4
ko'o -> broda5

I guess the question really is : are linked sumti on the tertau treated as
though they're at the start of the tail_terms of the bridi?

Any comments/thoughts?

Regards
Richard

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England



_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:12:13 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: misc practical questions

At 07:40 PM 5/28/99 +0200, Max Kubierschky wrote:
>From: Max Kubierschky <max@xxxxxx.xx>
>
>> The limitation is in the natural langauge side of the interface.  If there
>> is an engine that could generate smooth text from coarse keyword glosses,
>> we would be very close in Lojban to English, since the parser/glosser can
>> output coarse keyword glosses.  The major limitation here remains in the
>> lexicon - too few words are defined well enough for an MT program to
>> translate them.
>
>As far as i understand, a "coarse keyword gloss" is some isomorphic
>transcription of lojban, that is more readable to non lojbanists. True?
>Have problems similar to the keyword gloss -> english problems yet
>been attacked (with or without success) in computer linguistics?

No idea. Maybe someone else knows, but i am far from a computer-linguistics
guru %^)

>> Only to the level of the parser/glosser that I mentioned, which would be
>> "low quality" by any standard.  Anything higher would take serious work,
>> probably funded research or graduate-studies research work, because the
>> person-months of work needed to produce the lexicon and reasonably fast and
>> sophisticated code are not going to be easily found among volunteers
>> working occasionally in their spare time.
>
>No doubt that the amount of work needed is high. But how high is it
>compared to translating tons of linux manuals to a target language
>by hand (which is actually done on a non fundned basis for some
>languages)?
>I don't think that there is lack of resources on the programming side
>of the problem (considering the tremendous amount of free software on
>this planet). So the question reduces once again to:
>How hard is it as a linguistic problem?

Probably more time-consuming than "hard", I would suspect, given that you
are looking for "OK" text and not colloquial text.  But I would be the last
person to trust for a definitive answer.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:32:08 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co remoi


>mi troci co cusku di'e
>
>.i le du'u zasti fa le banli dunli be le cevni be vo'a cu nibli le du'u da
>se cevni da


i ku'i do pu xusra le du'u zasti fa su'oda poi ke'a banli dunli
le cevni be ke'a gi'e cevni ku'o a su'ode poi ke'a banli dunli
le cevni be ke'a nagi'enai cevni

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 9
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:49:42 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau

Nora steps in with a rare response to a couple of these.

At 08:54 PM 5/28/99 +0100, you wrote:
>From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xx>
>I'm trying to resolve how the x1..x5 places of a brivla are assigned to
>the sumti in the bridi when the tertau takes on one of several unusual
>forms.  I don't recall any mention of (1), (3), (4) or (5) in the
>reference grammar, although the BNF definition allows them.  I'm fairly
>sure of (2), I'm just looking for confirmation.
>
>(1) ko'a brodi broda je brode ko'e
>
>ko'a -> broda1 and brode1
>ko'e -> broda2 and brode2
>
>i.e. it means the same as
>
>ko'a brodi broda ko'e gi'e brodi brode ko'e   OR
>ko'a brodi broda gi'e brodi brode vau ko'e

See the reference grammar page 349 on example 12.2 ("ti blanu je zdani").
It says that "... Example 12.2 happens to be the same as 12.4) ti blanu
gi'e zdani ...".  This means that at least those sumti in front of the
selbri are joint.

(Nora notes that this is a bug in the parser/glosser at present).

>(2) ko'a broda co brode ko'e
>
>ko'a -> broda1
>ko'e -> brode2

See page 95 of the reference grammar, example 8.2 through 8.4 and the
discussion in between.  It makes the place structure the your (2) come out
the same a "ko'a bride be ko'e be'o broda".



----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:33:34 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau


>I guess the question really is : are linked sumti on the tertau treated as
>though they're at the start of the tail_terms of the bridi?


You didn't ask what this one means:

(6) ko'a ko'e broda be ko'i

My guess is that ko'i is still broda2. If I'm right that would
mean that linked sumti are not just at the start of the tail_terms.
But I don't know whether that makes ko'e broda3 or a
superposition of broda2. This can happen sometimes:
{ko'a broda fa ko'e fa ko'i}.

My answer is that I don't know, and that it's not a good
idea to use linked sumti with the tertau anyway.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. (no subject)
           From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. banzu co xamoi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: (no subject)
           From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Well...
           From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: Well...
           From: Steven Belknap <sbelknap@xxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 28 May 99 21:38:31
   From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: (no subject)



 Have you considered Forth?  You can easily redefine anything in
 it.  In fact, writing a program is just defining a word.  That
 word is then available for use in defining other words; and so
 your dictionary grows.

 It combines the best features of compilers and interpreters,
 and when used skillfully it can be more compact than assembly
 language and run faster.

 There is a safeguard against redefining things too deep into
 the structure of the language.  When you know how, you can
 give a simple command to move the safeguard deeper and then
 redefine it anyway.  Alternatively, you can move it higher
 and ensure that your earlier work won't be trashed by mistakes
 in your later work; or clear everything down to the current
 level of the barrier, and load different modules on top.
 Now, that's mutable.

 There are commercial versions with all sorts of custom add-ons,
 but FIG Forth has been public domain since 1978, and was
 implemented on just about every processor family out there,
 mainframe and micro, with full source available on any of them
 from FIG (the Forth Interest Group).  It contains its own
 Operating System, but has often been ported to run under others.

 I'd give better contact info, but I haven't so done much
 programming since the 1980s, and lost touch with the community.
 I later lost my archival Forth stuff in a flood.  Somebody ought
 to be able to track it down.  The latest standard version of Forth
 the last time I was active in that world was Forth-83.

 > From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
 >
 > A guy named Sassenrath is presenting a new computer language named
 > Rebol (www.rebol.org).  It's an interesting looking language, but
 > I was especially facinated by the fact that it's very mutable --
 > you can easily replace any and all of the syntactical elements
 > with ones of your own choosing.
 >
 > It seems to me -- although I don't know either Rebol or Lojban
 > very well -- that Rebol might serve well as a test vehicle for
 > a Lojbanic computer language.  Its parser is just a little bit
 > too unsophisticated (we'd want a full spaces-irrelevant parser
 > for the real thing), and its source isn't available (but it
 > doesn't cost money).
 >
 > If an enhanced Rebol turns out to look interesting, perhaps it'll
 > provide a guide towards implementing a real Lojban computer
 > programming system.
 >
 > --
 > -William "Billy" Tanksley
 > "But you shall not escape my iambics."
 >            -- Gaius Valerius Catullus



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Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:37:33 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co xamoi

ga noda jmaji le farlu ginai ma'a na nei (Nothing
gathers what falls, if we do not.)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 06:37:24 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu

di'e pinka le mutce cinri xe fanva be fu la spigot

>.i le menli po'e le banli prije pe le xintu'a
>    pu pencu se benji zi'o le stuna le stici

{po'e} is not wrong, but why not use {be}?
Also, instead of {se benji zi'o} you could use {preja}.
I don't like using {zi'o} when it can be avoided, but
that's just my taste.

>.i le selvla be zo galtu .e zo dizlo cu se pilno co ckini

This one is tricky, because you are describing something
as being the meaning of both words, when what you
probably mean is to say that the two meanings are
relatedly used. I remember we had a discussion on the
list about this before, but I don't remember whether we
reached any conclusion on how to say {le selvla
be zo galtu be'o e le selvla be zo dizlo} in a more compact
form.

The example we used then was {le mamta be la djan
e la meris}, which means "the mother of John and Mary",
not  "each of the mothers of John and Mary respectively".

>.i le gusni .e le manku cu remei

This says that each of them is a pair, not that they constitute
a pair, which would be {le gusni [ku] joi le manku cu remei}.

({ku} is not really elidable there, but it should be.)

>.i .e'u le nu do tricu lo valsi cu jai zi jgari le banli zasti fai do

Did you really mean {tricu} here?


>lu ko na fesxaksu le do temci ca le donri .a le nicte tu'u

I know {fesxaksu} is suggested in the gismu list, but to me
it means "to use up/consume/deplete all the waste". I don't
unsderstand how it can mean "to waste" other than by loose
keyword association. "To waste" could be {xlaxaksu} or
{selxlaxaksu} or even {palcauxaksu} in the sense of
"squander", and something like {fesyga'i} for the sense
of reducing something to waste, but I don't see how
{fesxaksu} works.

co'o mi'e xorxes






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Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 12:41:47 -0700
   From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: (no subject)

On Fri, May 28, 1999 at 09:38:31PM +0000, dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx wrote:
> From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx

>  Have you considered Forth?  You can easily redefine anything in
>  it.  In fact, writing a program is just defining a word.  That
>  word is then available for use in defining other words; and so
>  your dictionary grows.

I'm a Forth fanatic, actually -- but in order to make a Lojbanic Forth
we'd have to invent a pretty serious dialect of Lojban to handle the
stack.  It would be pretty cool, I admit, but I don't have the skill.

I suggested Rebol because it has most of the features of Forth, but it
also has and uses a parser.

Also possible is Pliant; Pliant is open source, which is more suitable to
Lojbanic use, but it's also a more complicated language.  I suspect that
Pliant could be made into a complete Lojban executor, but there'd be much
more work to get initial results.

Oh well.  Those are both imperative languages.  Perhaps we'd have to base
things on a logical language, like Mercury, anyhow.

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
"But you shall not escape my iambics."
           -- Gaius Valerius Catullus


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Message: 5
   Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 18:43:58 -0700 (PDT)
   From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Well...

Hello, I'm new here and really intrigued by Lojban.  It seems to me that
the major problem is the lack of a sufficient vocabulary...  Has anyone
thought about going through Abridged/Pocket Dictionary and making a list
of needed words?  What about embarking on larger translation works, for
instance an H. G. Wells or Jules Verne novel?  (Both of which should be
public domain).  Or even a more relevant translation of computer terms and
manuals (Linux manuals are usually public domain)?

--WorldMaker--
(wyrldmaiker?)

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:48:33 -0500
   From: Steven Belknap <sbelknap@xxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Well...

The vocabulary generating abilities of lojban are quite rich, much more so
than natural languages such as English. In alluding to the apparent lack of
words, perhaps you are referring to the gismu list, which can be thought of
as "word atoms." The "atoms" can be used as words themselves, but can also
be combined to form complex metaphors. You can also use words from other
languages by adapting them to lojban using a formal recipe for adapting
words in other languages to lojban.

Technically, you are correct: the current vocabulary of lojban is
incomplete. But that can be corrected by creating metaphors using the
lojban combining forms. With time, some of the compound lojban words may
become familiar metaphors recognized by all in lojbanistan.

>From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxx>
>
>Hello, I'm new here and really intrigued by Lojban.  It seems to me that
>the major problem is the lack of a sufficient vocabulary...  Has anyone
>thought about going through Abridged/Pocket Dictionary and making a list
>of needed words?  What about embarking on larger translation works, for
>instance an H. G. Wells or Jules Verne novel?  (Both of which should be
>public domain).  Or even a more relevant translation of computer terms and
>manuals (Linux manuals are usually public domain)?
>
>--WorldMaker--
>(wyrldmaiker?)
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Looking for a new hobby?  Want to make a new friend?
>http://www.onelist.com
>Come join one of over 150,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx.xxx

Steven Belknap, M.D.
Assistant Professor of Clinical Pharmacology and Medicine
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Peoria


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: (no subject)
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: Well...
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      3. ckafybarja lisri
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:21:13 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: (no subject)

At 12:41 PM 5/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>On Fri, May 28, 1999 at 09:38:31PM +0000, dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx wrote:
>> From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
>>  Have you considered Forth?  You can easily redefine anything in
>>  it.  In fact, writing a program is just defining a word.  That
>>  word is then available for use in defining other words; and so
>>  your dictionary grows.
>
>I'm a Forth fanatic, actually -- but in order to make a Lojbanic Forth
>we'd have to invent a pretty serious dialect of Lojban to handle the
>stack.  It would be pretty cool, I admit, but I don't have the skill.
>
>I suggested Rebol because it has most of the features of Forth, but it
>also has and uses a parser.
>
>Also possible is Pliant; Pliant is open source, which is more suitable to
>Lojbanic use, but it's also a more complicated language.  I suspect that
>Pliant could be made into a complete Lojban executor, but there'd be much
>more work to get initial results.
>
>Oh well.  Those are both imperative languages.  Perhaps we'd have to base
>things on a logical language, like Mercury, anyhow.

Lojban also has been demonstrated to be more or less isomorphic with
PROLOG, which makes it an obvious choice - you just need to decide what to
do for all the predicates.

Nick Nicholas did a partial interpretation of Lojban using, I believe,
LISP.  It is on the Lojban fileserver, and covered the core portions of the
language.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:32:19 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Well...

At 06:43 PM 5/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxx>
>
>Hello, I'm new here and really intrigued by Lojban.  It seems to me that
>the major problem is the lack of a sufficient vocabulary...  Has anyone
>thought about going through Abridged/Pocket Dictionary and making a list
>of needed words?

We actually have some better standards for "needed words" based on word
frequency lists.  But wordmaking is a major time consuming job, and there
is no one-to-one correspondence of English and Lojban words, so that you
cannot simply look at an English word, pick a Lojban word, and be done with
it.

But the real backlog is in analyzing the resulting words and determining
their place structures (and then ideally getting someone else to
independently check this partially subjective process).  We have at least a
couple thousand words that have actually been used in Lojban text, but
never had a place structure analysis, and the latter would be needed to
include them in a dictionary for someone else to use them.

>What about embarking on larger translation works, for
>instance an H. G. Wells or Jules Verne novel?  (Both of which should be
>public domain).

I have been working )very occasionally) for almost 10 years now on the
first story of the Burton version of Thousand Nights and a Night (Arabian
Nights - this is the Scheherezade story), and on the first chapter of
Heinlein's Moon is a Harsh Mistress (which mentions Loglan in the text).  I
know of others working on their own translations. But this again is time
consuming and we get words used, but not defined as a result.

But feel free to start translating yourself.  Don't wait for us.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:09:02 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: ckafybarja lisri

i lu coi fi'i doi pendo do mi'a ze'u na vitke le ckafybarja li'u
se tirna mi ca le nu nerkla i lu do mo ze'a le purlamji li'u
i lu e'o bevri lo ladyckafi ku joi loi lurba'otai i mi ba'onai
citka le pamoi cidja gi'eseri'abo xagji i e'u mi do ba tavla
ze'a le nu citka i e'o sutra li'u se spusku mi le rinsa je
terpreti no'u le barjyku'i i by mi slabu pendo i semu'ibo
by na se fanza le nu mi milxe tolclite i by roroi xendo

i ni'o mi naldasygau mi le kosta gi'e punji ky le trixe
be le stizu gi'e zutse i ze'a le nu denpa kei mi sruri catlu
i tolmutce le ka ba'o cenba i lei bitmu za'o tengu murse
i lei misno partci ze'e kruca dandu i lei se barja cu
so'umoi ca le clira tcika gi'e se flira co za'orsipna simlu
i oi ma rinka le nu by na klama

i ni'o lu lei do lurba'otai cu kukte doi dirba barjyku'i
i ja'a kuktce tai le se morji be mi li'u ibabo mi tolylaugau
le mi voksa gi'e cusku lu mi pu zvati le drata kevna li'u
i by se spaji i lu je'upei li'u i mi ra'isku lu mi co'a crebi'o
le drata bangu i ji'a mi pu tavla la sacydonsu bau dyby
li'u i lu sacydonsu ki'a li'u i lu datbau valsi i dunli zo
cfadunda le ka smuni i cmene le finti be le bangu li'u
i lu cizra lujvo li'u

i ni'o lu ua mi pu ca'o tolmorji i mi ji'a te nuzba fo do li'u
se cusku by ca le nu mi mo'u pinxe le romoi ckafyspi
i lu ko smadi le du'u makau puzi spebi'o li'u i by denpa
le nu mi spuda kei nagi'e gekyki'a lu le zirpu terpemci li'u

co'o mi'e xorxes




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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: Well...
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: [lojb
           From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: [lojb
           From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
      6. Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Re: [lojb
           From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:50:50 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu

ki'e xorxes.

>>.i le menli po'e le banli prije pe le xintu'a
>>    pu pencu se benji zi'o le stuna le stici
>
>{po'e} is not wrong, but why not use {be}?
>Also, instead of {se benji zi'o} you could use {preja}.
>I don't like using {zi'o} when it can be avoided, but
>that's just my taste.

.i .ua zo preja cu prane .isi'a zo be cu prane
.ili'a mi pu na'e banzu tadni le te sumti be zo menli

>>.i le selvla be zo galtu .e zo dizlo cu se pilno co ckini
>
>This one is tricky, because you are describing something
>as being the meaning of both words, when what you
>probably mean is to say that the two meanings are
>relatedly used. I remember we had a discussion on the
>list about this before, but I don't remember whether we
>reached any conclusion on how to say {le selvla
>be zo galtu be'o e le selvla be zo dizlo} in a more compact
>form.

.i mi pu senpi le du'u le jufra cu drani
.iku'i naku mi pu danfu facki
.i le valsi jorne ciste ca'o cfipu mi

>>.i le gusni .e le manku cu remei
>
>This says that each of them is a pair, not that they constitute
>a pair, which would be {le gusni [ku] joi le manku cu remei}.

.ua je'e

>>.i .e'u le nu do tricu lo valsi cu jai zi jgari le banli zasti fai do
>
>Did you really mean {tricu} here?

.i xajmi srera .i zo troci cu basti zo tricu

> >lu ko na fesxaksu le do temci ca le donri .a le nicte tu'u
>
> I know {fesxaksu} is suggested in the gismu list, but to me
> it means "to use up/consume/deplete all the waste". I don't
> unsderstand how it can mean "to waste" other than by loose
> keyword association. "To waste" could be {xlaxaksu} or
> {selxlaxaksu} or even {palcauxaksu} in the sense of
> "squander", and something like {fesyga'i} for the sense
> of reducing something to waste, but I don't see how
> {fesxaksu} works.

.i mi ji'a na'e se mansa zo fesxaksu .iku'i mi pu se nandu
le nu mapti valsi facki .i mi ckire do lei mupli

co'o mi'e la spigot.


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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:17:34 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Well...

WorldMaker wrote:

> Hello, I'm new here and really intrigued by Lojban.  It seems to me that
> the major problem is the lack of a sufficient vocabulary...  Has anyone
> thought about going through Abridged/Pocket Dictionary and making a list
> of needed words?

To clarify a few points arising from other replies (forgive me if I'm being
too basic, but you said you were new to Lojban) ....

When Lojbanists use the word "metaphor" they can mean one of four things:

1.  An unmarked culture-specific metaphor, such as using "heart" to mean
"soul", or literally translating "look up" meaning "research".  This is
strongly disapproved of in Lojban - {risna} means heart as a physical organ,
and for "soul" or "emotional self" you would use {pruxi} or {cnisei}.

2.  An unmarked "permitted" metaphor.  Some gismu have mildly metaphorical
uses written into the definition as a way of extending the range of the word.
For example, the entry for {nirna} reads:

x1 is a nerve/neuron [body-part] of x2; [metaphor: information/control network
connection]

These are rare, though,  and some people have serious doubts about them.

3.  A metaphor marked with {pe'a}.  This can be anything you like - {pe'a}
indicates that what follows should not be taken literally.

4.  A tanru i.e. a combination of words such that they limit each other in a
specific was.  For example "the world maker" would be {le munje zbasu} - the
world-type-of maker/builder.  This obviously has very little to do with
metaphor as the word is commonly understood, and I don't actually call tanru
"metaphors" myself.

With tanru you can express almost any concept, but the result can be wordy and
ambiguous.  What I think you're looking for is lujvo - compound words derived
from tanru.  You need a fairly good knowledge of Lojban to construct lujvo
accurately (I still make impossible lujvo sometimes) but there is a good list
of pre-made lujvo available at the Lojban website.


>  What about embarking on larger translation works, for
> instance an H. G. Wells or Jules Verne novel?  (Both of which should be
> public domain).  Or even a more relevant translation of computer terms and
> manuals (Linux manuals are usually public domain)?

Again, if you look at the lujvo list, you'll find a lot of computer-related
vocabulary - the problem is that computer terminology changes so rapidly.  A
Lojban translation of a Linux manual would be a major propaganda coup
(especially since the kind of people who are into Linux are often the kind of
people who would be interested in Lojban) and would generate lots of useful
lujvo, but it would be a hell of a lot of work.  I'm trying to install Linux
at the moment, and I have a hard time understanding the English manuals!

>
> --WorldMaker--
> (wyrldmaiker?)

Probably {.uyrldmeikr.} , though my Lojban phonology is notoriously bad ;-).
Alternatively translate it with a lujvo like {munjyzba}.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 31 May 99 10:44:31
   From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [lojb



 > I'm a Forth fanatic, actually -- but in order to make a Lojbanic
 > Forth we'd have to invent a pretty serious dialect of Lojban to
 > handle the stack.  It would be pretty cool, I admit, but I don't
 > have the skill.
 >
 > I suggested Rebol because it has most of the features of Forth,
 > but it also has and uses a parser.

 I've been out of touch for a long time (and haven't gotten the
 FIG newsletter since the 1980s), but hasn't anybody written a
 Forth parser?  Maybe somebody at FIG would know.

 Do you have contact info?  About all I remember at this point
 is the snailing address used to be in California.  (So long ago
 we weren't even calling it Snail yet).



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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:35:22 -0700
   From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: [lojb

On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 10:44:31AM +0000, dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx wrote:
> From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx

>  > I'm a Forth fanatic, actually -- but in order to make a Lojbanic
>  > Forth we'd have to invent a pretty serious dialect of Lojban to
>  > handle the stack.  It would be pretty cool, I admit, but I don't
>  > have the skill.

>  > I suggested Rebol because it has most of the features of Forth,
>  > but it also has and uses a parser.

>  I've been out of touch for a long time (and haven't gotten the
>  FIG newsletter since the 1980s), but hasn't anybody written a
>  Forth parser?  Maybe somebody at FIG would know.

Forth, by its nature (and as its advantage), can't be parsed -- it has no
syntax.  Someone's written an EBNF parser in Forth which works very well
and is very Forthish, but anything the parser can parse is no longer
Forth, pretty much by definition :-).

>  Do you have contact info?  About all I remember at this point
>  is the snailing address used to be in California.  (So long ago
>  we weren't even calling it Snail yet).

comp.lang.forth is a good place to start; www.forth.com is good, as is
www.taygeta.com.

What would a Lojban dialect for Forth look like?

Well, first of all it would have to be imperitive.  'ko' would be implied
in almost every sentance.  Relations would come at the end of sentances
rather than somewhere in the middle; 'se' and the other position switching
words would be used in a very special way.  The vocabulary would be very
limited, of course.

Whew.  I can't see it working.  I'll have to investigate the Logic
Programming world to see what they've got -- I know a little Prolog, and I
know that Mercury is more modern, but that's the extent of my knowledge.

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
   :-: May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!


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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:05:17 +0100 (BST)
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau

On Fri, 28 May 1999, Jorge J. Llambas wrote:

> From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> You didn't ask what this one means:
>
> (6) ko'a ko'e broda be ko'i
>
> My guess is that ko'i is still broda2. If I'm right that would
> mean that linked sumti are not just at the start of the tail_terms.

Indeed, the case of >1 sumti before the selbri illustrates this, as you
show.

After reconsidering the issue, I think you have to consider linked sumti
on the tertau as fixing some of the places, in effect producing a new
selbri which has fewer places (somewhat like the function of zi'o).

> But I don't know whether that makes ko'e broda3 or a
> superposition of broda2. This can happen sometimes:
> {ko'a broda fa ko'e fa ko'i}.

There's something in chapter 9 of the reference grammar, which indicates
that the sumti without a FA cmavo before them fit into the so-far unused
places.  So I think it would have to be broda3 by that argument.

>
> My answer is that I don't know, and that it's not a good
> idea to use linked sumti with the tertau anyway.

Yes, it certainly appears to be a bad idea!  Although see my point above,
that they could be viewed as fixing certain places.  Of course, nothing is
gained over writing those places in the head or tail terms anyway, so it's
pretty pointless.

My main interest in getting to the bottom of this is that the BNF
definition of the language allows it, so there needs to be an unambiguous
treatment of what it means (I'm putting together some software and this is
one of the bits I'm implementing at the moment.)

Just to make things even more complicated, what about the following cases?
I've used A, B, ... to represent sumti this time, and marked what I think
the place assignments are underneath.

A B ke broda be C ke'e be D be'o E
1 4             2         3      5

A fo B ke broda be C ke'e be D be'o E
1    4             2         3      5

A B ke broda be C ke'e be fo D be'o E
1 3             2            4      5

A B ke broda ke fi C ke'e be D be'o E
1 4                3         2      5

If that was bad, I'm starting to wonder what happens if there is
conversion present as well.  e.g. things like

A fo B te ke se broda be C ke'e be D be'o E

start to look awfully complex.  I think I'll just let my program give up
with something like this!

co'o mi'e ritcyd.

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England



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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:19:02 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: bridi place structure with unusual tertau

la ritcyd cusku di'e

>After reconsidering the issue, I think you have to consider linked sumti
>on the tertau as fixing some of the places, in effect producing a new
>selbri which has fewer places (somewhat like the function of zi'o).

That's reasonable. Then {ko'a broda be fa ko'e} puts ko'a
in the broda2 place.

>If that was bad, I'm starting to wonder what happens if there is
>conversion present as well.  e.g. things like
>
>A fo B te ke se broda be C ke'e be D be'o E

I hadn't thought of that. You can actually use just fa
to tag every different position of a predicate:

xe ke ve ke te ke se ke klama be fa A ke'e
be fa B ke'e be fa C ke'e be fa D fa E

is equivalent to:  A klama B C D E


>start to look awfully complex.  I think I'll just let my program give up
>with something like this!

Those are all algorithmic, a program shouldn't have too much
trouble with them as long as there are no rule conflicts.
As for us mere mortals...

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 21:05:31 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: sevzi co ka ckini je ka jicmu

la spigot cusku di'e

>>>.i le selvla be zo galtu .e zo dizlo cu se pilno co ckini
>
>.i mi pu senpi le du'u le jufra cu drani
>.iku'i naku mi pu danfu facki
>.i le valsi jorne ciste ca'o cfipu mi

i ie pluja i le selvla be zo galtu e zo dizlo
du da poi ke'a selvla zo galtu e zo dizlo
i pe'i lu le re selvla be zo galtu fa'u zo dizlo li'u
ka'e mapti

>>>.i .e'u le nu do tricu lo valsi cu jai zi jgari le banli zasti fai do
>>
>>Did you really mean {tricu} here?
>
>.i xajmi srera .i zo troci cu basti zo tricu

i u'i i ku'i nu troci lo valsi kei ki'a i si'apei nu pare'u pilno lo valsi

co'o mi'e xorxes






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Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 31 May 99 18:45:53
   From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [lojb



 > Forth, by its nature (and as its advantage), can't be
 > parsed -- it has no syntax.  Someone's written an EBNF
 > parser in Forth which works very well and is very Forthish,
 > but anything the parser can parse is no longer Forth, pretty
 > much by definition :-).

 What's EBNF?

 > What would a Lojban dialect for Forth look like?

 > Whew.  I can't see it working.  I'll have to investigate the
 > Logic Programming world to see what they've got -- I know a
 > little Prolog, and I know that Mercury is more modern, but
 > that's the extent of my knowledge.

 There's no need to keep it so close to the roots of Forth.
 I once knew some people who were working on implementing
 LISP in Forth.  One application would be robotics; the LISP
 could be used for decision making and it would be easy to
 drop back down to Forth for operation of the more mechanical
 aspects of the machine.

 If as Lojbab says Prolog is practically isomorphic to Lojban,
 then something like that would be an obvious choice.  If for
 any reason it's a trifle too rigid for the purpose, then it's
 time to drop back to a lower level and fix it where it should be
 fixed, without awkward high-level patches.  I don't see any reason
 not to implement something like Prolog in something like Forth.
 In fact it seems to me I've heard of exactly that begin done,
 too.

 Hmmm, how about a humanoid robot whose limbs walk around in
 Forth, with blocks to decide where to go under LISP in Forth,
 and talking to you in Lojban under Prolog, also under the same
 Forth?

 Okay, easy to say it; so why don't I run off and write the
 darn thing!  <g>


    ---  If I, could hold time, in a bottle...  ---



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