_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Parser/Glosser
           From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxxx
      2. EBNF
           From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
      3. Re: [lojb
           From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. ebnf
           From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: [lojb
           From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:59:25 -0700 (PDT)
   From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Parser/Glosser

I have an idea for working out a quick and dirty Keyword Glosser that
could theoretically get the point across.  You would need two parts (both
of which could be externalized) a multi-dimensional lookup table and
"Parsing Rules".  Since there are multiple keywords that will work for a
word.  Let's take menli to start with:

menli [ men ] mind ; 'mental'
x1 is a mind/intellect/psyche/mentality/[consciousness] of body x2

You would have the first most used keyword as the Zeroth item in the array
(and the default) and intellect as number 1 and so on.

Then, if you wanted to refer to intellect instead of mind you write
menli[1] instead of just plain menli.

Its a rough way of doing it, but theoretically, if you can get some sort
of standard going on the order of the keywords and then you can do lookup
tables for other languages.

Last, you would need "Parsing Rules" to figure out how the sentence would
appear.  For instance it could look something like the example sentences
at the bottom of the definitions and you could probably generalize it to
"%1 is a(n) %k [of body %2]" for english and which the parser would
substitute the first sumti for %1 and the keyword (from the lookup table)
fot %k and if the second sumti exists it includes the part in brackets and
substitutes the second sumti for %2.

You externalize this into say "ENGLISH.TBL" and then all you have to do is
rewrite the table as a different file ("RUSSIAN.TBL") and rules for
another language.

What do you think?  Its just an idea I had, and there are probably a bunch
of odd problems that would creep up and you would have to write parser
rules for different sumti configurations (%1 would still refer to the
first sumti in order from left to right, but if the parser finds a
modifier it uses a different parser rule).

--[mu'ezba]--
{{That works doesn't it?}}
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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:47:06 EDT
   From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
Subject: EBNF

Extended Backus-Naur Form, a notation for writing grammars.  It's what
chapter 21 is written in.


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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:09:22 -0700
   From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: [lojb

On Mon, May 31, 1999 at 06:45:53PM +0000, dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx wrote:
> From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx

>  > Forth, by its nature (and as its advantage), can't be
>  > parsed -- it has no syntax.  Someone's written an EBNF
>  > parser in Forth which works very well and is very Forthish,
>  > but anything the parser can parse is no longer Forth, pretty
>  > much by definition :-).

>  What's EBNF?

Extended Backaus-Naur Form.  BNF is a formal way of describing some
computer languages; EBNF is used to describe any extension of that to
handle more languages.  In this case, the extension is kinda odd, because
instead of adding words and syntax to BNF, this parser adds BNF to Forth.

>  > What would a Lojban dialect for Forth look like?

>  > Whew.  I can't see it working.  I'll have to investigate the
>  > Logic Programming world to see what they've got -- I know a
>  > little Prolog, and I know that Mercury is more modern, but
>  > that's the extent of my knowledge.

>  There's no need to keep it so close to the roots of Forth.

Well...  If we're going to talk about a Lojbanic Forth (or a Forthish
Lojban), yes there is. Otherwise it's not very interesting.

>  I once knew some people who were working on implementing
>  LISP in Forth.  One application would be robotics; the LISP
>  could be used for decision making and it would be easy to
>  drop back down to Forth for operation of the more mechanical
>  aspects of the machine.

That's not a bad idea.  Of course, for the GC Lisp needs you'd want to
drop to assembly.

>  If as Lojbab says Prolog is practically isomorphic to Lojban,
>  then something like that would be an obvious choice.  If for
>  any reason it's a trifle too rigid for the purpose, then it's
>  time to drop back to a lower level and fix it where it should be
>  fixed, without awkward high-level patches.  I don't see any reason
>  not to implement something like Prolog in something like Forth.
>  In fact it seems to me I've heard of exactly that begin done,
>  too.

Prolog might be appropriate -- but there's been a lot of progress in the
Logical Programming Languages field since its release, too.  Someday I'll
get enough time to actually read up on that -- hopefully after this set of
finals is over.

>  Hmmm, how about a humanoid robot whose limbs walk around in
>  Forth, with blocks to decide where to go under LISP in Forth,
>  and talking to you in Lojban under Prolog, also under the same
>  Forth?

>  Okay, easy to say it; so why don't I run off and write the
>  darn thing!  <g>

Yeah, sounds great!  :-)

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
   :-: May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!


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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 01:12:48
   From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: ebnf



 > From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
 >
 > Extended Backus-Naur Form, a notation for writing grammars.
 > It's what chapter 21 is written in.

 Ah, BNF I know, the E threw me off.  I guess everything is
 "new and improved" after a while; time to bake the doughnuts;
 ah, update my skills.  (let a measly decade slip by, busy with
 other fields of expertise...).  Got any good books for me?



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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 02:00:51
   From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [lojb



 > Prolog might be appropriate -- but there's been a lot of progress
 > in the Logical Programming Languages field since its release, too.
 > Someday I'll get enough time to actually read up on that --
 > hopefully after this set of finals is over.

 Time there is never enough of; or rather it's infinite, but
 we use it up at transfinite rates.

 Just in case I get some myself, though, what would you recommend
 I read to come back up to speed?



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. pemci
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. pemcrxaiku
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. IANA language registry
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. lisri xixa
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Humorous Interlude...
           From: kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:20:26 PDT
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: pemci

lu tutci jivbu li'u tcita di'e .i tu'e

renvi co nanca li vopa
.i le baxso djine be lemi
degji ru'i sinxa co prami
je speni .i logji vlipa
.i sarlu fa le tarmi

.i senva co nanca li vopa
.i le ve fanva mi jorne
le jaivi tolpei .i cmene
da poi vi'e clupa
ke'a .i baxso djine

tu'u co'o mi'e maikl. ("Toolloom": 'Survivor of 41 years.
The Balinese ring on my finger stands for husband & lover.
Logic powerful. Spiral shaped. Forty one years a dreamer.
The thing translated from is joined to me at the place of
mystery. Name of what is everywhere looped. Balinese
ring.')


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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:48:00 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: pemcrxaiku

lenku carvi
.i mi ganse le glare
co nenri mi



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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:01:54 PDT
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: IANA language registry

Now that the book is out, maybe we should register the language code
"i-lojban" with IANA?

The KLI guys have already done it, so why shouldn't we?

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:49:49 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xixa

fo'a bacru lu .a'a mi pensi ponse le lisri be fo'i ("I
know a ghost story," says Cornelius.) .i lu .a'usai li'u
("Go on!") .i bacru lu pukiku lebi'u remna cu litru
ne'imo'i le drata kevna goi fo'o ("Once there was a man
who travelled to the other cave.) .i ca le co'i pevyvro
co pamoi kei fo'u goi le remna ba'o cirko le gimste li'u
(At the first gate he lost his gismu list.) .i lu
.a'ucaidai li'u se bacru ko'a ("Ooh!" says Djuna.) .i
lu ca le co'i pevyvro co remoi kei broda cei cirko le
ka'erkai co fendi befi lo jitfa .e lo jetnu li'u ("At
the second he lost the power to distinguish true from
false.") .i mi lu xlali .uonai li'u bacru ("That's bad
but--" i say.) .i fo'a lu ca le co'i pevyvro co cimoi
li'u bacru ("At the third gate--") .i mi lu ta'a .a'a
.i noda xlazma la'edi'u li'u bacru ("Nothing is worse
than that!" i interrupt.) .i cisma fa la kornelius. i
lu le ba'e terdi ba'o broda li'u se bacru (He smiles.
"The whole earth lost the power to distinguish true from
false.") .i ko'a bacru lu .aunai dukse .i .e'ocai co'u
lisri fo'i li'u ("That's too scary! Enough ghost stories,"
says Djuna.) .i denpa .i ko'a lu .au lurba'ortai li'u
cladu bacru (Then she says, "I want a croissant.")


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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:26:32 -0600
   From: kingcats@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Humorous Interlude...


Pardon my interruption, but you just gotta see this:

http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=redneck&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.animal.helsinki.fi%2Flojban%2Flojbroch.html

(If this is broken into two lines, you may need to join the link into
one string for your browser)

The main site for this is:

http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: lisri xixa
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:51:42 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lisri xixa

.o'acu'ise'i .o'ase'inai


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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. ji'a pemci
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. ji'aji'a pemci
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. le nu klama be la .oma'as.
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 07:11:14 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: ji'a pemci

lu .iucairo'i li'u di'e tcita .i tu'e

simsa falemi nunprami
goi ko'a lo tamcyska skami
leka vlikanji lei dugri
.i ko'a ku'i kajyfagri

tu'u ("(Intense-emotional-love!)": 'My love is like a red,
red computer in powerfully calculating logarithms-ness.
Only, it figures with fire.') co'omi'e maikl.



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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:49:30 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: ji'aji'a pemci

lu le jitfa valsi vau li'u di'e tcita .i tu'e

nu dargu dasyspo kei .oi
.i lo'e cfipyboi
fasnu di'i zunti lei tcaci
pe mi .i troci
co banzu .i fliba .i bacru lu
je'unai .iu
nu snuti je snipa li'u .i pagre
fi no ragve

tu'u ("The false word": '(Ouch!) Road-temporary-
destruction. The typical confuserball event
regularly messes with my routine. Suffice-try.
Fail. Say, "(Irony!) I love the accidental-&-
sticky." Pass through to no across-one.')


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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:10:47 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le nu klama be la .oma'as.

[question -- the parser claims to not know the word <po'o>.  i tried to use
it in here to refer to a string of sumti grouped with <ce>, but don't know
if it only applies to the last one or not, ideas?]

la oma'as.
    selzva
        ge lo na'e canko bijku'a be fi'o tergu'i le jursa
        gi lo dustei be le cermurse bei le vacmurse
        gi lo tergu'i co litru bo skami
        gi lo tcadu djacu be fi'o vrusi leka cizra
        gi leka carmi pe la diksis. gi leka patfu pe la .andis.
        gi leka xendo pe la .djim.
        gi leka tinbe vipsi be fi ri be'o ne la stiv.
        gi leka cinla pe la liz.
        gi leka pesxu pe le binra certu poi le cmene be ke'a cu nalvai
        gi mi
   .i fi le klaji kumfa canko fa mi ka'e viska fe le rirxe pe la misuris.
        poi ke'a kruvi trixe lei dinju .i lei bartu vacri
            cu norgla je norcilmo .i ganai mi bartu
                gi mi lifri la'edi'u .iku'i mi nenri
       .i mi nenri le briju zi le cermurse
       .i fi lei rufsu je tcesau zarci
        poi ke'a simlu leka mlimle ku'o cu korbi
        fe lo kitybli dargu ve'a lemi xotli bi'i lemi briju
       .i mi dzukla le xotli
        ba le nu vacmurse
    mo'izo'a
lo mlife'u citno .e lo mlipindi .e lo mlicfu ne le mlixau gusta zvati
     .i la oma'as. milxe
         .isa'e mi na'eka'e birti la'edi'u
             .iseja'ebo mi pu catlu le mu dargu ce le kruvi be le rirxe
              pe la misuris. ce le xotli ce le briju po'o .iku'i
                  piso'aroiku mi catlu lo na'e canko bijku'a be fi'o
                  tergu'i le jursa .i mi ca gunka le se papri stidi
                  be le jdini kurji bei le binra kagni noi ke'a
                  sabji leka binra lei binra kagni
       .i na'e tamsmi la nu,iork .i nalzva fa lei zarci carce
       .i lei zarci cu na'e kalri ca le vanci .i lo rokci bradi'u poi
       ke'a se tcita
    zoi gy. DOVGLAS COVNTY COVRT HOVSE gy. cu zvati
   .i lei melbi kitybli bo srodi'u .e lei cmana .e lei tricu .e
   lei srasu vi'a zvati  .i tcesma  .i mi ka'e sipna .i.a'o mi ba sipna
   .iseja'ebo mi ba bilga le nu mi cikna zi le cermurse .iki'ubo
   mi ba cikre lei gunka prosa .i
la oma'as.
     terpe'i le midju stici le stici
         .i ko'a terjo'e tu'a la .AI,o,uas. tu'a la denvr.
             .i la'edi'u ka'e selfa'i fi'o lifri tu'a le mu dargu



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There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. prami xatra
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. absence - ka nalzvati
           From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:09:37 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: prami xatra

la labla'u cu selstu
    le fanmo be
        le rokci bitmu co ricfoi bo kruca .i
le srasu since
    cu sakli cpare
        mo'ipa'o le cimtu'a be fi'o spati lei tsispa .e lei xrula .i
le rokci bitmu poi
    ke'a mitre galtu ku'o
        fe'e ru'inai selspo .i mi'o pu cadzu ra

        .i lei ricfoi tricu ba morsi .iseja'ebo
    lei catra cmacinki cu brife muvdu fo le xamsi
ca le balbi'e tcima
.i lei cmacinki ca
    snocatra lei tricu .i
         lo bratricu pu mlafa'u .ijecabo ri te mledi
        .i mi'o cadzu mo'ito'o le rokci bitmu mo'ine'i lei cmana .i
    tu'i le cmana balni mi'o zutse je tavla
fi la .alstralias.
.e le kunske

.i lei cmamabru
    puze'a citka tu'i le purdi
        .ijecabo lei najna'i toldi cu vofli vi'u le ricfoi
        .ije vo'e tersa'a lei cipni .i mi'o cinba tu'i le julne ckana .i
    roda xamgu ca lenu
mi kansa do












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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:31:01 PDT
   From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: absence - ka nalzvati

ba le 11moi mi de'a kakne co mrilu fu le mriste  to ku'i kakne co tcidu
toi .i ca le critu mi di'a go'i

.i doi djica co tavla be mi ko pilno tu'a zoi gy broca@xxx.xx
gy noi ralju samjudri mi

co'o mi'e tsali


After the 11th, I will no longer be able to post messages to the mailing
list (I will, however be able to read it).  In the autumn I will again
be able to post messages.

If you want to contact me, use broca@xxx.xxx which is my main e-mail
address.

-ARJ



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There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. sumti tcita
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: sumti tcita
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. sumti tcita
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
      4. Re: sumti tcita
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:12:32 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: sumti tcita

quick question --
is there a way to put sumti tcita tenses somewhere other than the end of
the bridi?


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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:16:05 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: sumti tcita



>quick question --
>is there a way to put sumti tcita tenses somewhere other than the end of
>the bridi?


Yes, they may be put in any place where a term may go. If they don't
have an explicit sumti attached, then they are followed by {ku},
usually not elidable: {mi klama puku le zarci} =  "I went, in the past,
to the market".

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:47:56 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: sumti tcita

oop, i guess i was thinking of something else when i said 'sumti tcita'.
let me try again...

mi klama le zarci ca lenu do citke
    = i go to the market when you eat  (right?)

i'm wondering if there is a way to move <ca lenu do citke> to someplace
else, like the beginning of the bridi, to mean, for example,
    = while you eat, i go to the market.


thanks!


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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:20:34 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: sumti tcita

>mi klama le zarci ca lenu do citke
>    = i go to the market when you eat  (right?)
>
>i'm wondering if there is a way to move <ca lenu do citke> to someplace
>else, like the beginning of the bridi, to mean, for example,
>    = while you eat, i go to the market.


Yes, a tagged sumti can go in any term position:

    ca le nu do citka kei mi klama le zarci

{kei} is needed there so that {mi} is not absorbed
as a term of the nu-clause.







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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Pronunciation
           From: Jack Raven <j_raven@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: Pronunciation
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      3. another question -- po'o
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: sumti tcita
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
      5. Re: another question -- po'o
           From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. lo xajmi tersitna
           From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 01:55:57 PDT
   From: Jack Raven <j_raven@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Pronunciation

Pronounciation Questions.

Is "n" always pronounced  like  "note" "button" "no"
     as opposed to "sling" "wink" "finger"?

Is "r" always used like a vowel (er) "winter" "colorful" "better",
     or is it sometimes harder (more lip involved) when followed
     by a vowel as in English "rabbit" "crowd" "surround" (2 r's)
     (or is it just too minute a detail to matter)
     (the trilled "r" doesn't seem to have this distinction,
      it is more of a triple "d")

"Y"  = (uh)?  (mini-lesson)

what about (ih)   "fit" "sit"  "little"  My name "Tim"  My wife "Melissa"

     I personally think that  "uh"  and "ih"  are not distinct enough.
     Our names could be "tem" "malesa"  or "tim" "melisa"

Thanks for your help.

  Lojban neophyte,
                  tim


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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 10:11:01 -0400
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Pronunciation

Jack Raven wrote:

> Is "n" always pronounced  like  "note" "button" "no"
>      as opposed to "sling" "wink" "finger"?

Either pronunciation is permitted.  Most Lojbanists use the
latter sound before g and k.

> Is "r" always used like a vowel (er) "winter" "colorful" "better",
>      or is it sometimes harder (more lip involved) when followed
>      by a vowel as in English "rabbit" "crowd" "surround" (2 r's)

"r" should be distinctly audible, not a mere vowel coloring.
It may be trilled or flapped/tapped, or pronounced as an approximant.

> "Y"  = (uh)?  (mini-lesson)

Yes.

> what about (ih)   "fit" "sit"  "little"  My name "Tim"  My wife "Melissa"

Not a Lojban sound, but may be used as the so-called "buffer"
to separate consonant clusters that you find difficult to articulate.

>      I personally think that  "uh"  and "ih"  are not distinct enough.
>      Our names could be "tem" "malesa"  or "tim" "melisa"

Most people use the full Lojban "i" (English "ee") in such names.

--
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@xxxx.xxx
	You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
	You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
		Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:27:02 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: another question -- po'o

does

mi viska le bolci ce le bliku ce le broda po'o

mean
i see (the ball, block and thingie) only

or, does the po'o apply only to <le broda> ?

thanks!


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:16:05 +0100 (BST)
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: sumti tcita


de'i li 7:6 vecu'u le notci
neme'e la'o xy. <199906072347.TAA27574@xxxxxx.xxx> xy.
la'o xy. Spigot xy. pu ciska di'e la jbomriste :

> From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
>
> oop, i guess i was thinking of something else when i said 'sumti tcita'.
> let me try again...
>
> mi klama le zarci ca lenu do citke
>     = i go to the market when you eat  (right?)

nearly, "citka" rather than "citke"

>
> i'm wondering if there is a way to move <ca lenu do citke> to someplace
> else, like the beginning of the bridi, to mean, for example,
>     = while you eat, i go to the market.

Yes, you can move it to the beginning, with one catch, you need to
terminate the abstraction with kei in this case :

ca lenu do citka kei mi klama le zarci

Without the extra "kei", it would bracket as follows

[ca (le {nu do citka mi} klama)] (le zarci)

and mean "during the ((event of you eating-me) type-of goer), the market",
i.e. it is pretty much jibberish.  In terms of the grammar definition,
this is a "fragment" rather than a complete sentence, since it is just a
pair of terms juxtaposed.  It is the kind of construction you might give
as a short answer to a question, as in

ca ma ma pu klama le xaskoi (During when, who went to the beach?)

to which the answer might be

ca le crisa mi (During the summer, me).

co'o mi'e ritcyd.

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England



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Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:11:24 -0300
   From: "=?US-ASCII?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: another question -- po'o

>does
>
>mi viska le bolci ce le bliku ce le broda po'o
>
>mean
>i see (the ball, block and thingie) only
>
>or, does the po'o apply only to <le broda> ?


Actually, only to <broda>, not even <le broda>.
Attitudinals attach to the immediately preceding word.

One way of doing it (if you insist on using sets) may be:

    mi viska lu'i le bolci e le bliku e le broda lu'u po'o

but Lojban sets are supposed to be mathematical
objects, so they can't be seen. I would use a mass
instead:

    mi viska lu'o le bolci e le bliku e le broda lu'u po'o

co'o mi'e xorxes




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Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 21:42:21 -0500
   From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lo xajmi tersitna


sei la karol no'u le nolraitru be la romania ge'u pu cusku ca lenu ky
puca'o galfi ry no'u le milxe roltru le multrotru gugde ku de'i pasocibi
se'u mi pu se zukygau le ji'i pa sidbo no'u lesi'o mi prami lemi natmi
kei e lesi'o mi bilga bandu lemi pafygu'e
u'i re sidbo zo'obu

-----

I'm really drawing a blank on how to write down date/time in Lojban.
Can someone provide me with a brief explanation on how to write "The
time is 9:38 PM.  The date is Tuesday, June 8th, 1999," all that?
That's one of my biggest stumbling blocks so far.

co'o be'i la djan mainat


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      2. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxxx
      3. lisri xize
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Pronunciation
           From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: Pronunciation
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: Jim Carter <jimc@xxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      7. Writing dates
           From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
      8. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:01:29 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx>
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna

 <375dd48c.59d47a5-@xxxxx.xxx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/group/lojban/?start=1310
> From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxx>
>
la djan.  mainat. cusku di'e
>
> I'm really drawing a blank on how to write down date/time in Lojban.
> Can someone provide me with a brief explanation on how to write "The
> time is 9:38 PM.  The date is Tuesday, June 8th, 1999," all that?
> That's one of my biggest stumbling blocks so far.
>
>
coi djan.

There is an explanation in the draft textbook, lesson 10.8

http://www.animal.helsinki.fi/lojftp/draft-textbook/lesson10

Briefly, you write the time in the 24-hours format 'hours:minutes',
for instance 9:38 PM = 21:38,
and translate into lojban using {pi'e} for the semicolon

The time is 9:38 PM  =  li repa pi'ecibi cu tcika

Similarly, the format for the date is

'day-of-week:week:day:month:year' (number of the week is usually omitted),
for instance, Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 = 3::8:6:1999

The date is Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 =
li ci pi'epi'e bi pi'exa pi'epasososo cu detri

See also an explanation by Jorge Llambias

http://www.egroups.com/group/lojban/23.html?

in the posting of May 10, 1998 (=10:5:1998)

co'o mi'e .evgenis.


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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:53:03 -0500
   From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna


"Evgueni.Sklyanin" wrote:
> 'day-of-week:week:day:month:year' (number of the week is usually omitted),
> for instance, Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 = 3::8:6:1999
>
> The date is Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 =
> li ci pi'epi'e bi pi'exa pi'epasososo cu detri

Has there ever been any dialog on why the order is month/day/year and
whether it should be so?  American English is one of the few languages
in the world with that order.  British English, Spanish, Russian, and
practically every language in the world (although not Japanese, which
has year/month/day) have day/month/year.

co'o be'i la djan mainat


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:41:35 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xize



ko'a .e fo'a ca'o ciksi ko'i pe bau ko'e poi rinka lenu ba'o fendi
ko'u le jaivi ko'o .e fo'o kei ku'o fo'e noi puzi jorne ku'o le stali
po'o be ma'a ku pe fi'e fo'u noi ke'a joi fo'i ba'o binxo co gunma (Djuna &
Cornelius are explaining the song in that language
which was the cause of dividing the two caves into here & the
Other Place, to the Vicar, who has just now joined us, as the
only thing left to us of that person who went to the Other Place
& became one with the ghosts.) .i lu ko'i cusku le nu dunku
lepu'u le gusfendi zemei ca'o canci le rutni carvi li'u se bacru
fo'e ("It expresses the anguish of the process of a rainbow's
fading in the sprinkler-spray," says the Vicar.) .i fo'a lu cusku
lo ratni be leka vrucau kei ca lenu ry. slilu joi damba le drata
ratni li'u bacru (Cornelius says, "It expresses atoms of silence
as they oscillate & fight amongst each other.") .i ko'a bacru lu
ko'i simsa le pixra pe sema'i lo toldi nalci (Djuna says, "It's like
a picture made of butterfly wings.) .i ka'u lo vi ti toldi noroi co'a
lenku margu (We know butterflies here don't die,)  .iseni'inaibo
cizra fa lenu viska le nalci pe secau le loldi li'u (so it's strange to
see the wings without a butterfly.") .i mi lu li fi'u ze cu parbi le
temci po'u lo selsanga le temci po'u lo ckafybarja (I say, "The
time of a song is one-seventh the time of a coffeehouse.) .i li
fi'u ze cu parbi le temci po'u lo ckafybarja le temci po'u lo
runbau (The time of a coffeehouse is one-seventh the time of
an artificial language.) .i li fi'u ze cu parbi le temci po'u lo runbau
le temci po'u lo jecta (The time of an artificial language is one-
seventh the time of a state.) .i canci fa lo jecta li'u bacru (And
states die.") .i fo'e bacru lu .io.e'i banzu li'u (The Vicar says,
"It's enough.")


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 08:50:11 -0700 (PDT)
   From: WorldMaker <world_maker@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Pronunciation

To add to Tim's list I've got a couple of english conversion problems...

The English 'x' (as in Ox) would be 'ks'?

The English 'ch' (as in Cheese) I can't remember, but isn't that something
like 'tc' or was it 'tj'?

--[me'zba]--
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:51:17 -0400
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Pronunciation

WorldMaker wrote:

> The English 'x' (as in Ox) would be 'ks'?

Yes.

> The English 'ch' (as in Cheese) I can't remember, but isn't that something
> like 'tc' or was it 'tj'?

"tc".

--
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@xxxx.xxx
	You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
	You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
		Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:09:24 -0700
   From: Jim Carter <jimc@xxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna

> John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxx> writes: (Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:53:03 -0500)
>
> "Evgueni.Sklyanin" wrote:
> > 'day-of-week:week:day:month:year' (number of the week is usually omitted),
> > for instance, Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 = 3::8:6:1999
> >
> > The date is Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 =
> > li ci pi'epi'e bi pi'exa pi'epasososo cu detri
>
> Has there ever been any dialog on why the order is month/day/year and
> whether it should be so?  American English is one of the few languages
> in the world with that order.  British English, Spanish, Russian, and
> practically every language in the world (although not Japanese, which
> has year/month/day) have day/month/year.

ISO 8601 specifies a time part order of yyyy-mm-dd, e.g. 1999-06-09.
The standard apparently is in wide use in the EU.  References:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-time.html -- A nice summary of ISO 8601
http://www.iso.ch/markete/8601.pdf           -- The standard (14pp PDF, 130Kb)

James F. Carter        Voice 310 825 2897	FAX 310 206 6673
UCLA-Mathnet;  6115 MSA; 405 Hilgard Ave.; Los Angeles, CA, USA  90095-1555
Internet: jimc@xxxx.xxxx.xxx (finger for PGP key)
UUCP:...!{ucsd,ames,ncar,gatech,purdue,rutgers,decvax,uunet}!math.ucla.edu!jimc




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Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:46:39 EDT
   From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
Subject: Writing dates

In a message dated 6/9/99 9:50:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, minots@xxxxx.xxx
writes:

<< Has there ever been any dialog on why the order is month/day/year and
 whether it should be so?  American English is one of the few languages
 in the world with that order.  British English, Spanish, Russian, and
 practically every language in the world (although not Japanese, which
 has year/month/day) have day/month/year. >>

For over 20 years I've been writing dates in the format (cc)yymmddw, where
cc=century (optional), yy=year, mm=month, dd=day, and w=day of week (A-G,
starting with Monday), e.g.,
Today is Wednesday, June 9, 1999, so I write this date as 990609C.  This is
the shortest constant length format which is easy to use.  (I may start using
A-L for the month; I hadn't thought of that before.)  I chose YMD because the
decimal number system has the most significant digits first, i.e. left, and I
use Monday as the starting point of the week because, even though Sunday is
the traditional American beginning of the week, it seems obvious to me that
Saturday and Sunday are the end of the week (the 'weekend'.), and that Monday
is the beginning of the week.  The Russian calendar, among others, does it
this way too.
Steven


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:22:32 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna

>From: John Minot <minots@xxxxx.xxx>
>"Evgueni.Sklyanin" wrote:
>> 'day-of-week:week:day:month:year' (number of the week is usually omitted),
>> for instance, Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 = 3::8:6:1999
>>
>> The date is Tuesday, June 8th, 1999 =
>> li ci pi'epi'e bi pi'exa pi'epasososo cu detri
>
>Has there ever been any dialog on why the order is month/day/year and
>whether it should be so?

He just said that the order is day/month/year %^)

The reason for the order is linguistics, and has to do with elision and
critical information, which in languages tends to come either up front or
at the end.  It was felt sufficiently important to reverse the order found
in ISO standards, which are used for dates with all information specified.
Language users do not generally specify all the portions of the date.

In Lojban, important info is usually up front, and we elide things at the
end that are typically less important.  Now look at actual usage of dates
in language.
Today is Tuesday
Today is Tuesday the 8th  (not Tuesday in June, or Tuesday in 1999)
Today is Tuesday the 8th of June
Today is Tuesday the 8th of June in 1999

We sometimes elide the day of the week because it is unimportant or known,
but whenb we give dates the order used in Lojban is in order of importance
because the later numbers do not change as often and hence are often
implicit in the context.

> American English is one of the few languages
>in the world with that order.  British English, Spanish, Russian, and
>practically every language in the world (although not Japanese, which
>has year/month/day) have day/month/year.

And Lojban matches most countries and not American English.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Pronunciation
           From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      3. lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      4. Re: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
      7. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      8. Re: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      9. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
     10. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
     11. banzu co zemoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     12. banzu co bimoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     13. Re: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
     14. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
     15. The Russian Lojban page
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
     16. Re: Russian Lojban page
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     17. Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     18. Re: banzu co bimoi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     19. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     20. Re: banzu co bimoi
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:13:59 PDT
   From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: Pronunciation

> > Is "n" always pronounced  like  "note" "button" "no"
> >      as opposed to "sling" "wink" "finger"?
>
>Either pronunciation is permitted.  Most Lojbanists use the
>latter sound before g and k.

I don't.

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:02:46 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office

I am currently very actively lobbying the EU patent organisations because
of the imminent danger of patentability of programming concepts (so called
"software patents"), which the EU commission is trying to change the
European Patent Convention (EPC) so as to introduce for all of Europe this
year.  A multilingual public petition letter at

	http://swpat.ffii.org/miert/

has already been signed by 500 people.

I have, as part of my lobby work, proposed the introduction of Lojban as
an auxiliary language for patent descriptions.  People at the EPO I spoke
to were quite interested.

The EU is planning measures to make life easier for their customers, i.e.
mainly big corporations who own a lot of patents.

My lobbying goals are:

1 no change to the Munich convention, i.e. no patentability of
  non-industrial concepts such as software solutions
2 cut examination and research costs by putting all data in the internet
  under an Open Content license and opening a free market for patent
  research
3 no cuts of translation costs, but, where acceptable to the EPC
  countries, allow a submission of a text in a logical language, which
  can be automatically translated to, for example. Logician's Portuguese.

So far, the planned lobbying organisation EuroLinux (other names still
possible, see http://eurolinux.ffii.org) has only no 1 on the agenda and
no 2 is fairly easy to get on.  No 3 is a burden to our lobbying efforts,
unless we get some active participation of Lojbanists in our lobby group.

What do you think?

-phm
P.S. one first step might be to lojbanize the letter to Van Miert, of
which an Esperanto version is already on the net.




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:37:41 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

Sorry, my prior submission was full of anacolouths.  Here it is again
-------------

I am currently very actively lobbying the EU patent organisations because
of the imminent danger of patentability of programming concepts (so called
"software patents").  The EU commission and the Administrative Council of
European Patent Organisations are trying to pave the way for this by
modifying the European Patent Convention (EPC).  A working group for this
is to be nominated on June 24/25 at a conference in Paris.

A multilingual public petition letter at

	http://swpat.ffii.org/miert/

has already been signed by about 800 people.

I have, as part of my lobby work, proposed the introduction of Lojban as
an auxiliary language for patent descriptions.  People at the EPO I spoke
to were quite interested.

The EU is planning measures to make life easier for their customers, i.e.
mainly big corporations who own a lot of patents.

My lobbying goals are:

1 no change to the Munich convention, i.e. no patentability of
  non-industrial concepts such as software solutions
2 cut examination and research costs by putting all data in the internet
  under an Open Content license and thus opening a free market for
  independent patent research specialists
3 no cuts of translation costs, but, where acceptable to the EPC
  countries, allow a submission of a text in a logical language, which
  can be automatically translated to, for example. Logician's Portuguese.

So far, the planned lobbying organisation EuroLinux (other names still
possible, see http://eurolinux.ffii.org) has only no 1 on the agenda and
no 2 is fairly easy to get on.  No 3 is a burden to our lobbying efforts,
unless we get some active participation of Lojbanists in our lobby group.

What do you think?

-phm
P.S. one first step might be to lojbanize the letter to Van Miert, of
which an Esperanto version is already on the net.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:20:41 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office

PILCH Hartmut wrote:

> I am currently very actively lobbying the EU patent organisations because
> of the imminent danger of patentability of programming concepts (so called
> "software patents"), which the EU commission is trying to change the
> European Patent Convention (EPC) so as to introduce for all of Europe this
> year.  A multilingual public petition letter at
>
>         http://swpat.ffii.org/miert/
>
> has already been signed by 500 people.
>
> I have, as part of my lobby work, proposed the introduction of Lojban as
> an auxiliary language for patent descriptions.  People at the EPO I spoke
> to were quite interested.
>
> The EU is planning measures to make life easier for their customers,
> i.e. mainly big corporations who own a lot of patents.
>
> My goals are:
>
> - no change to the Munich convention, i.e. no patentability of
>   non-industrial concepts such as software solutions
> - no cuts of translation costs, but, where acceptable to the EPC
>   countries, allow a submission of a text in a logical language, which
>   can be automatically translated to, for example. Logician's Portuguese.
> - cut examination and research costs by putting all data in the internet
>   under an Open Content license and opening a free market for patent
>   research
>
> What do you think?

Sounds good.  The issue of algorithm patenting came up in a meeting here
(Ankara) addressed by Richard Stallman.  Some people at the Free Software
Foundation are lobbying on this issue - maybe you're already in touch with
them.  AFAIK, algorithm patenting is already possible in the USA.
{.oiro'e.u'i} the idea strikes me as utterly ludicrous - you could extend it
to the whole of academia, so that, for instance, whenever I wanted to use one
of George Lakoff's metaphors in analysing a text, I would not only have to
cite him, but also pay him royalties.

As for your lobbying for Lojban, this is excellent.  What Lojban needs most in
the near future is to be put to practical uses by people who have other
motivations for using Lojban than simply liking the language.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:58:35 -0700
   From: William Tanksley <wtanksle@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

On Thu, Jun 10, 1999 at 05:37:41PM +0200, PILCH Hartmut wrote:

> I am currently very actively lobbying the EU patent organisations because
> of the imminent danger of patentability of programming concepts (so called
> "software patents").  The EU commission and the Administrative Council of
> European Patent Organisations are trying to pave the way for this by
> modifying the European Patent Convention (EPC).  A working group for this
> is to be nominated on June 24/25 at a conference in Paris.

I'm glad to hear that.  Software and idea patents are a very real danger.

> My lobbying goals are:

> 2 cut examination and research costs by putting all data in the internet
>   under an Open Content license and thus opening a free market for
>   independent patent research specialists

Pardon?  All data in the Internet?  You have no right to change the
license of my data merely because I publish it on the Internet!

Hmm...  I'm re-reading that now...  A less offensive wording might have
been "...by publishing all patent data on the Internet under...".  I hope
this is what you meant to say.

> -phm

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
   :-: May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!


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Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:11:27 -0400 (EDT)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

Lojban's status as a Logical language can be its strongest selling point,
especially if a text in Lojban can be converted by software into
"Logician's Urdu", or "Logician's Estonian". Then only the initial
translation into Lojban would require human toil. Imagine a booming market
for Lojbanists!

-----
"Obscure, profound it was, and nebulous, So that by fixing on its depths
my sight -- Nothing whatever I discerned therein."

- Dante, describing Windows NT




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Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:29:32 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, William Tanksley wrote:

> > 2 cut examination and research costs by putting all data in the internet
> >   under an Open Content license and thus opening a free market for
> >   independent patent research specialists
>
> Pardon?  All data in the Internet?  You have no right to change the
> license of my data merely because I publish it on the Internet!

I mean all patent specification data.
A condition for grant of a patent is that the specification is made
public.  This implies something like "open-content".

-phm




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Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:25:46 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Jim Carter wrote:

> I'm not a patent attorney so I haven't read the Munich convention.  I do
> agree that software patents are Not Nice.  However I suspect that gradually
> the boundary between "temporal" or "physical" or "industrial" processes
> versus "spiritual" or "symbolic" or "informatic" ones will become more and
> more vague.  For example, some drugs are manufactured by recombinant DNA
> technology by "writing programs", even with modular components analogous
> to subroutines, that are then executed by bacterial transcriptase and RNA
> polymerase to produce the actual drug.  A clear distinction between
> patentable art and nonpatentable texts will be harder and harder to make
> as technology advances.

A grave problem indeed.  Which makes this work very important.  They (EU)
shouldn't be advancing in this direction without a serious discussion.
Currently their arguments are just ridiculous ("Microsoft has patents and
Microsoft is successful, ergo patents are good")

> I'm not sure that the translation out of any intermediate language to
> natural language known by the reading human would give clear results
> good enough to be legally binding, given the inherent illogic of natural
> languages.  At least if the document is submitted in translated form
> the submitter takes responsibility that the copies mean the same thing.

It could be a solution for countries like Portugal and Greece, where most
patents in certain areas are irrelevant anyway.  If they accept, of
course.  Also, having a Lojban text would provide the enormous advantage
of logical non-ambiguity.

> I definitely favor putting patent material on the net.  The USA Patent and
> Trademark Office is doing just that: they already offer a CD of all known
> trademarks, some of the patent material is there already, and the system
> is being upgraded to include all the graphics in the documents.

They do in EU too, but the stuff is not freely downloadable, nor is it
possible to reorganize it, so as to create better search routines.  I
suspect that it is internally maintained at a too low level of
abstraction.  If you really want to raise the level of abstractio to an
extreme degree, for extreme operationability, you will end up using ---
Lojban (or another Logical Language).

-phm




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Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:42:33 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, xod wrote:

> Lojban's status as a Logical language can be its strongest selling point,
> especially if a text in Lojban can be converted by software into
> "Logician's Urdu", or "Logician's Estonian". Then only the initial
> translation into Lojban would require human toil. Imagine a booming market
> for Lojbanists!

Once we have that market, we have a group that will develop better and
better OpenSource parsers.

I became interested in Lojban precisely because I feel the pain of
translating Japanese patent descriptions into faulty illogical languages
all the time.  IMO Japanese syntax can hold more complexity with less
ambiguity than English and German.  Of course also Japanese has
ambiguities, which force me to make painful decisions and then put a
stamp on a document certifying that it is "an accurate translation" when I
really can't.  Only a Logical Language is really suitable for patent
descriptions.  With multilinguality in the EU, this is even more so.

-phm



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Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:06:11 -0400 (EDT)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, PILCH Hartmut wrote:

> I became interested in Lojban precisely because I feel the pain of
> translating Japanese patent descriptions into faulty illogical languages
> all the time.  IMO Japanese syntax can hold more complexity with less
> ambiguity than English and German.  Of course also Japanese has
> ambiguities, which force me to make painful decisions and then put a
> stamp on a document certifying that it is "an accurate translation" when I
> really can't.  Only a Logical Language is really suitable for patent


Are you finding that you can't understand what the author really meant, or
that you know what it going on but can't put it into words? Because if
it's the former, it sounds like a proper patent in Lojban could not be
done without the the patenter being interviewed by a Lojbanist.


> descriptions.  With multilinguality in the EU, this is even more so.
>
> -phm
>

-----
"Obscure, profound it was, and nebulous, So that by fixing on its depths
my sight -- Nothing whatever I discerned therein."

- Dante, describing Windows NT



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Message: 11
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:10:19 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co zemoi

na canlu lo menli (Mind doesn't take up space.)


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Message: 12
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:12:09 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co bimoi

lo vitke krinatfe cu bilga co clite (It
behooves a guest cynic to show restraint.)


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Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:25:39 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban the European Patent Office

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Robin Turner wrote:

> Sounds good.  The issue of algorithm patenting came up in a meeting here
> (Ankara) addressed by Richard Stallman.  Some people at the Free Software
> Foundation are lobbying on this issue - maybe you're already in touch with
> them.  AFAIK, algorithm patenting is already possible in the USA.

Sure.  Currently there are two organisations calling for the founding
of the EuroLinux lobby group, the two behind the two servers

	http://www.freepatents.org
	http://swpat.ffii.org

We are in close contact with Richard Stallman, but Jean-Paul Smets, the
author of freepatents.org, is really the most competent lobbyist in
Europe.

> As for your lobbying for Lojban, this is excellent.  What Lojban needs
> most in the near future is to be put to practical uses by people who
> have other motivations for using Lojban than simply liking the language.

Since Lojban itself was born out of an IP dispute and the reference parser
runs on Linux, you may feel very comfortable as a member of the EuroLinux
Alliance (http://www.eurolinux.org or, if not yet online,
http://eurolinux.ffii.org).

If anyone of you lives close to Cologne, Germany, please come to the

	http://kongress.ffii.org	

(you must look at the carricature on the title page :-)
this sunday.  Jean-Paul Smets will be giving a keynote speech on the plans
for EuroLinux.

For purposes of participating, it would be optimal to state that the
Lojban organisation is based in a third EU country, apart from FR and DE.
Maybe FI ?

This would give us a higher status as a EU-lobbying NGO.

-phm



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Message: 14
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:31:19 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, xod wrote:

> > I became interested in Lojban precisely because I feel the pain of
> > translating Japanese patent descriptions into faulty illogical languages
> > all the time.  IMO Japanese syntax can hold more complexity with less
...
> Are you finding that you can't understand what the author really meant, or
> that you know what it going on but can't put it into words?

Both, but more the latter.
Sometimes I need to resolve ambiguities without really being competent to
make the decision, more often I am forced to introduce ambiguities (by
creating huge nested sentences, with ambiguity multiplied by each nesting
layer) or to break up the structure into more readable English/German and
again make decisions that I am not authorized, such as redefining the
claimed scope of patent protection.

-phm



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Message: 15
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:03:11 -0400 (EDT)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: The Russian Lojban page

A little while ago the URL to a new Lojban page was posted. The page is
located on a Russian server. The computer containing the bookmark was
stolen so I'd appreaciated if this were reposted.

Thanks!

-----
"Obscure, profound it was, and nebulous, So that by fixing on its depths
my sight -- Nothing whatever I discerned therein."

- Dante, describing Windows NT



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Message: 16
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:35:21 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Russian Lojban page

http://euclid.pdmi.ras.ru/~sklyanin/lojban.html

(A copy of my new book "luryri'e" is available here.)


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Message: 17
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:54:00 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lobbying for Lojban at the European Patent Office


>P.S. one first step might be to lojbanize the letter to Van Miert, of
>which an Esperanto version is already on the net.

It took me about an hour to translate the first paragraph (out of 30),
so it may take a while to do it all. Most of the time I spent trying
to find suitable lujvo for "monopoly", "software", "cartel conference",
and "dominance of communication interfaces". We're not at the point
where we can translate this kind of document yet, we still need to
build a lot of vocabulary.

Anyway, here's the first paragraph (comments about the translation
are welcome, please!):

ni'o so'iroi lei purjbima'i ku joi lei purjbina'a do gubni cusku
le du'u do se raktu le ckape po'u lo'e venpavmei be lo samselpla
i ca le cabma'i bu'u le girzu nunpenta'a pe la berlin do pu te pinka
le du'u la mikrosoft cu mupli kei gi'e drani xusra le du'u ckape fa
genai le nu le kagni cu barda giku'i le nu ky trovli lei ve cusku te
jorne i do bitsku le du'u le do kagni cu ju'itce le di'u ckape

Many times during recent months and years, you have publicly
expressed your concern about monopoly dangers in the software
area.  This month, at the Berlin kartell conference, you mentioned
Microsoft as an example and correctly stated that it is not the size
of the company but the dominance of communication interfaces
which is dangerous.  You reassured us that your establishment
is keeping a close eye on this danger.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 18
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:23:18 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co bimoi

>lo vitke krinatfe cu bilga co clite (It
>behooves a guest cynic to show restraint.)


I think every time I've seen {natfe} in use it has
been with the meaning "person x1 denies that
x2 is true about x3", never with its definitional
meaning "x1is the negation of x2", probably
because the keyword "deny" is very misleading.

{krinatfe} cannot mean "cynic" if {natfe} retains
its intended meaning, but who knows, maybe
the keyword will win.

Other suggestions for "cynic": {kamvu'esenpi} ,
{xaursenpi}.

co'o mi'e xorxes





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Message: 19
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:48:12 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna

la djan mainat cusku di'e

>sei la karol no'u le nolraitru be la romania ge'u pu cusku ca lenu ky
>puca'o galfi ry no'u le milxe roltru le multrotru gugde ku de'i pasocibi
>se'u

The terminator {se'u} goes right after the selbri, and is usually
elidable, so in this case the parser will insert it after {cusku} and
then {ca le nu ...} is taken as part of the main clause. You could put
{ca le nu ...} before {pu cusku} to get  what you wanted.

Also, it should be {de'i li pasocibi}. {pasocibi} by itself is not a sumti,
it is a quantifier for the following sumti. You need the number article
{li} to turn it into a sumti.

>mi pu se zukygau le ji'i pa sidbo no'u lesi'o mi prami lemi natmi
>kei e lesi'o mi bilga bandu lemi pafygu'e
>u'i re sidbo zo'obu

It should be just {zo'o}, an attitudinal, not {zo'obu}, which is a sumti.

co'o mi'e xorxes






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Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:05:42 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co bimoi

At 12:23 AM 6/11/99 -0300, Jorge J. Llambas wrote:
>>lo vitke krinatfe cu bilga co clite (It
>>behooves a guest cynic to show restraint.)
>
>I think every time I've seen {natfe} in use it has
>been with the meaning "person x1 denies that
>x2 is true about x3", never with its definitional
>meaning "x1is the negation of x2", probably
>because the keyword "deny" is very misleading.

The best solution to this is to propose a lujvo with the "incorrect" place
structure, post it, use it, and we can get it into the dictionary.  With
two translations for the keyword "deny", people will perhaps look at the
place structure in choosing.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: banzu co bimoi
           From: "Tim & Melissa Marshall" <tim-mel@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: Russian Lojban page
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      3. EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
      4. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: "Tim Marshall" <tim-mel@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: Russian Lojban page
           From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: Russian Lojban page
           From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
      7. Lojban flag
           From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      8. Re: banzu co bimoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      9. banzu co somoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     10. banzu co panomoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     11. banzu co papamoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     12. banzu co paremoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     13. banzu co papamoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     14. Re: Russian Lojban page
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
     15. Re: banzu co bimoi
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
     16. Re: Russian Lojban page
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 03:29:33 -0500
   From: "Tim & Melissa Marshall" <tim-mel@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: banzu co bimoi

> {krinatfe} cannot mean "cynic" if {natfe} retains
> its intended meaning, but who knows, maybe
> the keyword will win.
>
> Other suggestions for "cynic": {kamvu'esenpi} ,
> {xaursenpi}.

Wow!   how do you pronounce  {xaursenpi}?!!! ?

  Well I practiced it for a while, and I think I have it, But it doesn't
exactly roll of my american tongue.

     Also it is exciting to see how this small yet growing language, can be
filled with such pontential.



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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:39:29 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Russian Lojban page

> _ <pine.lnx.3.96.990610170143.865a-10000-@xxx.xxxx.xxx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/group/lojban/?start=1334
> From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
>
> A little while ago the URL to a new Lojban page was posted. The page is
> located on a Russian server. The computer containing the bookmark was
> stolen so I'd appreaciated if this were reposted.
>
>
 <19990610233522.70194.qmai-@xxxxxxx.xxx> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/group/lojban/?start=1335
> From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> http://euclid.pdmi.ras.ru/~sklyanin/lojban.html
>
> (A copy of my new book "luryri'e" is available here.)
>
>
I have uploaded the link to the shared bookmarks area of our list at

http://www.onelist.com/bookmarks.cgi?listname=lojban

I have some new links in my collection. Please visit!

By the way, we have also 5Mb of presently empty empty shared files area at

http://www.onelist.com/shareddir/lojban/

Any ideas how to make use of it?

co'o mi'e .evgenis.



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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:14:59 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Jorge J. Llambas wrote:

> It took me about an hour to translate the first paragraph
> so it may take a while to do it all.

Great, thank you very much.

One other thing to be done is: draft (in English first) a public letter of
the Lojban organisation on the issue of the EU greenbook on community
patents, propose the 3-4 measures, in short

- oppose patentability of non-industrial ideas in general and as
  a possible threat to the Lojban project in particular
- reduce patent research costs by providing patent specs as open content
  of a high abstraction level.  "publishing patent specs" today must
  mean "publishing at the highest accessibility/abstraction level"
- right of EU citiziens to be informed in their language about
  what they are allowed to do and what not
- possibly reduce translation costs by providing a Logical Language
  version, from which "Logician's Portuguese" etc may be generated
- make automated patent research even more efficient by providing
  patent specs at a highest markup level, i.e. Logical Language.
  Lojban is a higher level SGML, as the parellelity between the two
  reference parsers shows.

I could help drafting this.  We could also create a webserver
lojban.eurolinux.org, to which everybody has access.

Remember that "linux" in "eurolinux" was merely chosen because it is the
most popular and therefore most powerful symbol for "free informational
infrastructure".  The latter term, which is the real issue, means less
than the penguin to many people.  The members need not support Linux as a
platform.  We are integrating people from OS/2 and commercial multimedia
manufacturers as well.

--
Hartmut Pilch





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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 05:13:08 -0500
   From: "Tim Marshall" <tim-mel@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

> One other thing to be done is: draft (in English first) a public letter of
> the Lojban organisation on the issue of the EU greenbook on community
> patents, propose the 3-4 measures, in short


     I am so new here I hesitate to even write this.
Well to simply cut to my point without dragging on.
It seems to me that a lojban community is a community that speaks or at this
time at least supports lojban.  That community is of diverse backgrounds
(religion, ethnicity, philosophy, etc) that have little to do with the
language itself. (except in how it may contribute to the understanding or
clarification of differences between these backgrounds)
     My opinion is that you are asking a great deal.  I don't know much
about lobbying or about the EU greenbook, but it seems a bold step for a
language group to push itself (however gently) into a political stand, even
if it includes the promotion of itself.  The issues you have before you are
of course very important.  And although I have not examined the issues that
carefully it appears that you stand on the side that will promote progress.
     What I do believe, is that this shows the great need to have such a
language as lojban.

     Hesitently, I throw my opinion to the wind as the dust it may be.
Tim




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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 03:21:06 PDT
   From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Russian Lojban page

>By the way, we have also 5Mb of presently empty empty shared files area at
>
>http://www.onelist.com/shareddir/lojban/
>
>Any ideas how to make use of it?

When they were going to buy the lojban.org domain, I heard Lojbab talk about
quite a lot of Lojban text that hadn't been released yet.  What happened to
it?

co'o mi'e tsali



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Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:28:36 +0200 (MET DST)
   From: "Evgueni.Sklyanin" <esklyani@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Russian Lojban page

I took liberty to upload, tentatively, to the shared files area
an HTMLized index to the Draft Textbook:

http://www.onelist.com/shareddir/lojban/ctucku.html

I leave it to the Moderator to judge if this file should be left or erazed.
Perhaps, we have to decide about some more formal procedure for uploading
the files, otherwise the space will be saturated quickly.

co'o mi'e .evgenis.


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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 05:48:09 PDT
   From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Lojban flag

I have seen the Lojban flag with white, gray, yellow and purple backgrounds.
  What colour is the official?  And what are the official proportions?

-ARJ



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Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:24:04 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: banzu co bimoi

je'e .i .e'u zo kridukti vau co'omi'e maikl.


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Message: 9
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:29:40 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co somoi

jinga najoke cecla pilno


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Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:30:44 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co panomoi

lo bangu pamei cuna banzu


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Message: 11
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:32:46 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co papamoi

lo jbojbe ba jdice


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Message: 12
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:31:11 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co paremoi

ko cikre ba'e jebabo cnerinka


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Message: 13
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:32:41 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: banzu co papamoi

lo jbojbe ba jdice


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Message: 14
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:42:15 -0400
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Russian Lojban page

Evgueni.Sklyanin wrote:

> I took liberty to upload, tentatively, to the shared files area
> an HTMLized index to the Draft Textbook:
>
> http://www.onelist.com/shareddir/lojban/ctucku.html

Thank you.  I will leave it in place for now.  Veijo, if you
are not too swamped, please consider moving this to xiron.

--
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@xxxx.xxx
	You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
	You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
		Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:44:29 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co bimoi



la lojbab cusku di'e

>The best solution to this is to propose a lujvo with the "incorrect" place
>structure,

xusra:  x1 asserts/claims/declares/states/affirms that x2 is true [about
x3].
tolxu'a: x1 disclaims/disavows/denies/negates that x2 is true [about x3].
norxu'a: x1 is noncommital on the truth of x2 [about x3].

I put [about x3] in brackets because {xusra} doesn't have this additional
place in its gi'uste definition. I don't understand why some words have it
and others don't, so I added it for the sake of consistency.

>post it, use it,

        i la bil tolxu'a le du'u by pu vaxtu'o lo marnygapci

vaxtu'o: x1 inhales x2.

>and we can get it into the dictionary.  With
>two translations for the keyword "deny", people will perhaps look at the
>place structure in choosing.

If they use the dictionary, yes. If they rely on the keywords they have
learnt, then it will keep being misused. Another favourite for this is
{cinmo}, which is mostly used as if it meant "x1 is an emotion", because
the keyword is "emotion".

co'o mi'e xorxes





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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
   Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:38:59 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Russian Lojban page

At 03:21 AM 6/11/99 -0700, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:
>From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>>By the way, we have also 5Mb of presently empty empty shared files area at
>>
>>http://www.onelist.com/shareddir/lojban/
>>
>>Any ideas how to make use of it?
>
>When they were going to buy the lojban.org domain, I heard Lojbab talk about
>quite a lot of Lojban text that hadn't been released yet.  What happened to
>it?

It is still around.  Unfortunately, Lojbab has no time to sift through it
while trying to keep the business end of LLG upright.  And John Cowan has
had greatly reduced Lojban time in recent months.  He is the one that has
to update the lojban.org file index that you-all need to find anything I
upload.

We have somewhere around 20-25 Meg more space available on www.lojban.org
before we have to pay more for disk space.

Note that most of the "Lojban text" that I have is in the archives of
Lojban List.  It is just that I used to pull it out as it came up into a
text archive.  The main thing I have that I want to upload that is really
"new" online are the back issues of JL and LK.

Maybe after LogFest.

lojbab

----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. pemci
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. prane stuzi
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:52:21 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: pemci

lu rutni se cortu li'u di'e tcita .i tu'e

le fenki zgike bele tcadu
genai xorvyselsanga
ra'i ko'a goi lo te tonga
poi cmoni fi leka temtordu

gi minji savru secau lo mukti
.i lo'emi pemci be ko'a
roroi fliba le cukyko'a
nu ve muvdu .i fukpi

klaku .uuje'u .i .oi le sorvenstu
za'o kutclu le voksa voi lastu

tu'u ("Artificial Pain": 'The crazy music of the city
is not a Croatian song, made by a tone-source that moans
expressing the briefness of duration, but machine noise
without purpose. My typical poem about it never gets past
the round-corner. Copycat weeper. (Ouch!) The Mall is more
than empty-full of the voice of brass.')


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:02:32 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prane stuzi

xu nau na prane stuzi
.i ko catlu lo tatru co cnita
       .i mi ka'e bevri le re grute sepi'o lemi xance
       fo le sudtu'a gi'e na'e taske
.ije mi ka'e sakli lei raktu .taibo gapci
.i lei canre cu sarlu muvdu mo'ine'a lemi tarmi
       .i mo'ize'o morna
       .i do le notci cu benji noda
.i noda selvi'a sepi'o lo murkanla
.i noda zmadu .i noda mleca
       .i mlecfu co ganse
       .i xu di'u .i xu di'u .i xu do tugni
.i la'edi'u na'e vajni .i prane stali

.i do titla je ranti je kukte
.ije do ba'o morsi
       .i mi terpa je desku je sarlu
       .ije mi c'i canci
.iju'ocu'i do ba cpedu fi mi ca lenu mi virnu
.i mi ca'o kakne ca lenu mi fenki
       .i xu do djica lenu mi darxi do lo mruli
       .i mi ka'e jelspo ko'a
.i la'edi'u na selsmu

.i le temci cu muvdu fo roda
.ije le temci na muvdu
       .i na'eka'e cmene la'e zo .u'e
       .i le pa jetnu jitfa .i le nolraitru be lei sfani

.i le grana poi ke'a ka'e selcme ku na'e mintu
le grana poi ke'a pagre lemi ganxo
       .i ko'a melbi je selcro
       .ije ko'a na'e zasti
.ije ko'a melbi je selcro gi'e farlu mo'ipa'o lei fagri
.i jgari to .ija nago'i .i na'e vajni toi

.i cirko noda ra'i ledo damba
.i noda se jersi lemi cilce brife
       .i noda vi ka'e selji'a
       .i prami roda pe leka cirko
.i jgari .i ralte .i cmoni
.i ko gasnu lenu mi jinru
       .i ko gasnu lenu do blucri mo'ine'i le jmive



--==--

is now not a perfect place?  see the nether breast.  i could carry
two fruits with my hands across the desert, and not thirst.
i can glide across the troubles, like vapor.  sands whirl like
my shape, outwardly, patterns-occur.  you send a message to nothing.
nothing is seen with a blind eye.  nothing is more.
nothing is less.  beautiful richness of the senses.  is that true?
is that true?  do you agree? it doesn't matter.  perfect remaining.

you are sweet and soft and delicious, and you are already dead.
i am afraid and destroying and spiraled; and i'm disappearing.
maybe you will ask me when i am brave.  i'm still able to, when
i'm crazy.  do you want me to hit you with a hammer?  i can
burn it down.  that doesn't mean anything.

losing nothing from your fighting.  nothing is chased by my wild wind.
nothing is won here.  love everything losing.  grasping.  holding.
howling.  immerse me.  bleed yourself to life.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: Lojban flag
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: banzu co bimoi
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. te xarnu ?
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      5. preti
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:51:09 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

la tim. cusku di'e

>      I am so new here I hesitate to even write this.
> Well to simply cut to my point without dragging on.
> It seems to me that a lojban community is a community that
> speaks or at this
> time at least supports lojban.  That community is of diverse
> backgrounds
> (religion, ethnicity, philosophy, etc) that have little to do
> with the
> language itself. (except in how it may contribute to the
> understanding or
> clarification of differences between these backgrounds)
>      My opinion is that you are asking a great deal.  I don't
> know much
> about lobbying or about the EU greenbook, but it seems a bold
> step for a
> language group to push itself (however gently) into a political
> stand, even
> if it includes the promotion of itself.  The issues you have
> before you are
> of course very important.  And although I have not examined the
> issues that
> carefully it appears that you stand on the side that will
> promote progress.
>      What I do believe, is that this shows the great need to
> have such a
> language as lojban.
>      Hesitently, I throw my opinion to the wind as the dust it
> may be.
>                               Tim
>

I think Tim may have a point.  While I agree with Pilch's stand,
I'm not sure that we should write a proposal as LLG.  As it
happens, a lot of people in the Lojban community share similar
ideas on a variety of subjects, but we can't bundle these in with
Lojban, otherwise we could end up having a language with its own
built-in ideology ({zo'o} a bit like Esperanto).  Perhaps the
best thing would be to set up something like "Lojban patents
working group" or whatever, rather than use LLG itself.

co'o mi'e robin.




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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:52:41 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Lojban flag

Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:

> From: Arnt Richard Johansen <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> I have seen the Lojban flag with white, gray, yellow and purple backgrounds.
>   What colour is the official?  And what are the official proportions?

zo'o given the kind of people we have in Lojbanistan, the official background is
bound to be something in hexadecimal.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:56:03 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: banzu co bimoi

Tim & Melissa Marshall wrote:

> From: "Tim & Melissa Marshall" <tim-mel@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> > {krinatfe} cannot mean "cynic" if {natfe} retains
> > its intended meaning, but who knows, maybe
> > the keyword will win.
> >
> > Other suggestions for "cynic": {kamvu'esenpi} ,
> > {xaursenpi}.
>
> Wow!   how do you pronounce  {xaursenpi}?!!! ?

Like someone with a really strong Spanish accent would say "hour senpi"!

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:47:08 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: te xarnu ?

quick question -- what does the x3 place of xarnu mean?

xarnu [ ] stubborn
       x1 is stubborn/willfully opposing/resisting x2 about x3 (event/state)

i read it as, x1 is the thing being stubborn, x2 is what x1 is resisting;
so x3 is...?  the general context?

thanks!


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Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:41:29 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: preti

xu marde zmadu
     fa le ka stace be fi le do cinmo ku
     fe le ka smadi be fi lei cinma be fa lei prenu bei sezu'e le nu do zukte

xu drani zmadu
     fa le nu do cilre fi le ko'a bangu ku
     fe le nu do ctuca ko'a fo le do bangu


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      2. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: Karen Stein <kstein@xxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: preti
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: Karen Stein <kstein@xxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxx>


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:10:14 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, Robin Turner wrote:

> I think Tim may have a point.  While I agree with Pilch's stand,
> I'm not sure that we should write a proposal as LLG.  As it
> happens, a lot of people in the Lojban community share similar
> ideas on a variety of subjects, but we can't bundle these in with
> Lojban, otherwise we could end up having a language with its own
> built-in ideology ({zo'o} a bit like Esperanto).  Perhaps the
> best thing would be to set up something like "Lojban patents
> working group" or whatever, rather than use LLG itself.

I agree.  And I would rather call it "Logical Language Patent Working
Group", so as to include loglanists, UNLists and others, even people who
don't practise any logical language, as well.

Unfortunately, it needs to be set up quickly, because the EU patent
organisations will set the course for new legislation at their Paris
conference one June 24th.

FFII would be happy to provide Internet resources for this group.

-phm http://www.ffii.org/~phm/ tel:49.89.12789608



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:02:44 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Karen Stein <kstein@xxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement



On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, Robin Turner wrote:

> From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>
> la tim. cusku di'e
>
<snip Tim's comment>
>
> I think Tim may have a point.  While I agree with Pilch's stand,
> I'm not sure that we should write a proposal as LLG.  As it
> happens, a lot of people in the Lojban community share similar
> ideas on a variety of subjects, but we can't bundle these in with
> Lojban, otherwise we could end up having a language with its own
> built-in ideology ({zo'o} a bit like Esperanto).  Perhaps the
> best thing would be to set up something like "Lojban patents
> working group" or whatever, rather than use LLG itself.
>
> co'o mi'e robin.
>

I think having a working group is an excelent idea.  Further, since Pilch
mentioned that whomever (ie. whichever group) made the proposal should be
based in the EU, this makes even more sense.  A working group can be based
anywhere there is an active lojbaner.

co'o mi'e karis.



_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:21:16 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: preti

>xu marde zmadu
>     fa le ka stace be fi le do cinmo ku
>     fe le ka smadi be fi lei cinma be fa lei prenu bei sezu'e le nu do
zukte
>
>xu drani zmadu
>     fa le nu do cilre fi le ko'a bangu ku
>     fe le nu do ctuca ko'a fo le do bangu


i genai zmadu ginai mleca
i le clite cu se cinri le drata gi'e cilre fi le dy bangu gi'e smadi
fi le dy se cinmo ija'ebo cy cfuze'a le ka jimpe
i le zifre cu jgira le sevzi gi'e ctuca fo le zy bangu gi'e stace
fi le zy se cinmo ija'ebo zy cfuzengau dy le ka jimpe
i le nu clite je zifre cu xagrai

co'o mi'e xorxes




_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:11:34 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Karen Stein <kstein@xxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

I understand the rush Pilch says we are under, so I think we should ask
him to do whatever it takes to make it happen.  Since most of the work can
be done here, there should be people ready and interested.  I wish I had
the time and background to be of more assistance.

co'o mi'e karis.




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: lo xajmi tersitna
           From: Thorild Selen <thorild@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
      3. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:55:48 -0400
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna

John Minot wrote:

> Has there ever been any dialog on why the order is month/day/year and
> whether it should be so?

Not AFAIK.  It should probably be ISO order (year month day) to
match the rest of the date stream.  The textbook is not authoritative
and is known to be out-of-date in some places.

--
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@xxxx.xxx
	You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
	You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
		Clear all so!  'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)




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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:26:05 +0200
   From: Thorild Selen <thorild@xxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi tersitna

There are other good reasons to use year-month-day, since that's the
order that's normally used in other measurements (starting with
the most significant part and the rest following by decreasing
significance); for example, I guess most of you write the time of
day as HH:MM:SS. not SS:MM:HH or HH:SS:MM. It's also the ordering
that we use for writing decimal numbers (although some languages,
such as German, does it differently when numbers are spoken or
written out in words instead of digits -- this doesn't seem very
"logical" to me, but I guess it's hard to change old habits...)

Another reason that I like year-month-day might be that that's the
official standard here in Sweden :)  It's not the world and
the Lojban community adapting to Swedish standards, rather the
case of Swedes having accepted an ISO standard that the rest of
the world doesn't care about. Well, perhaps Lojbanists do?

/Thorild


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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:32:54 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Karen Stein wrote:

> I understand the rush Pilch says we are under, so I think we should ask
> him to do whatever it takes to make it happen.  Since most of the work can
> be done here, there should be people ready and interested.  I wish I had
> the time and background to be of more assistance.

I put something on the net at

	http://swpat.ffii.org/lojban/

that could be further elaborated and signed by some people.
Hopefully it can then migrate to http://lojban.eurolinux.org soon.

-phm



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. lisri xibi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: lanci
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: te xarnu
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
      5. xa'unro'a xipapa
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: lo xajmi
           From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:49:35 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xibi


balvi .i ko'a .e mi ba'o bartu (Later. Me & Djuna have already
gone.)  .i la kornelius. e fo'e le prijyske ca'o casnu (Cornelius
& the Vicar are discussing philosophy.) .i fo'a lu zo le .e zo lo
zo'u fu'eka'u ko ganai ka'enai kansa le selprami be vo'a gi
prami lo kansa be vo'a fu'o (He says, "Regarding 'the' & 'a",
it is said: 'If you can't be with the one you love, love a person
you're with.') .i selkri ji'a (Likewise, beliefs.) .i pe'i da rubjmi le
jdakra zo'u da pensi jgari lo selkri le valsi li'u bacru (I think when
one weakly-understands the religion-source, one clings to beliefs
in the worm of words.") .i fo'e na tugni (The Vicar disagrees.)
.i ri bacru lu ni'inaigi ko'a goi lo krici cu djica co skicu le ko'a
selkri gi le jdakra na slabu ko'a ("Just because a believer wants
to verbalize their beliefs, that doesn't mean they're ignorant of
the religion-source.) .i da'inai lijda da zo'u gezu'u piso'oda
ca'ojamo'u lifri le jdakra gizu'unai piso'oda jiktra po'o (Rather,
among those of a given religion, there are those who are more
deeply experienced & those who merely repeat its forms.) .i ji'a
narjda de zo'u go'i (And not only among the religious--among the unreligious
also.) .i .uuru'e ga'iru'e .i'isai pu'i tcaci le zamnarkri li'a
li'u (Unbelief has its conventions too, you know.") .i denpa .i fo'a
ledi'u ca'o pensi (Pause. Cornelius considers what the Vicar has
just said.) .i le bitmu cu xunre bunre mudri (The walls are wood of
an auburn color.) .i bacru lu zo'onai le lizjdakra cu pruce fo di poi temci
("There is a time in the experience of the religion-source,)
zo'u ca di ku le tolpei cu simsa lo cilce poi ka'enai vasru ke'a
(when the mystery seems too wild for any containment.) .i ju'ocu'i
.au cusku ledu'u ba'e di pamei co jicmu le ka'erkai co fendi befi
lo jitfa .e lo jetnu mu'ocu'i li'u (I guess I want to say that THAT
time is the sole basis for the power to judge false & true...") .i
fo'e bacru lu ta'a le lizytolpei ka'e dunda simxu ("Mystery can be shared,"
the Vicar says,) .i .a'i tezu'e la'edi'u ku zasti fa lo larcu
("That is why Art exists.) .i ku'i da'i lo malsi lijda cu
remtemzamtugjoljmi ledu'u censa fa lo larcu li'u (And formal
religion is really only the lifelong acknowledgement of the
sacredness of Art.") .i fo'a lu lo malsi cu tolmle carmi ri'a ma li'u
bacru ("Then why are churches such ugly places?") .i lu mabla
grikai li'u se bacru fo'e ("Politics.") .i ko'a lu li fi'u ze cu parbi le
temci po'u lo jecta le temci po'u lo spatrkarosoteri vau
zo'ori'e.e'icu'i.i'i li'u bacru (Cornelius says, "The time of a state is
one-seventh the time of a creosote bush!") .i le pimumei co
lurba'ortai pebu'u le jubme cu se tarmi me'o .vav. bu (The
croissant half on the table has the shape of the letter Vau.)


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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:59:01 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lanci

.e'u rijno je narju


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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:24:59 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: te xarnu

the thing x1 is stubborn about.


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_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:10:07 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

> 	http://swpat.ffii.org/lojban/

changed to

	http://eurolinux.ffii.org/lojban/

We really need to put it on

	http://eu.lojban.org

Could the administrator of the lojban.org nameserver set eu.lojban.org
to genba.ffii.org so we can proceed further?

It is necessary that the "European Logical Language Lobbying Group" or
whatever be founded officially in some country, preferably neither Germany
nor France and have its own websige.  We can host it at ffii.org and give
access to all members, but it should be clear that the lobbying group is
affiliated with the Lojban Organisation.  EuroLinux needs independent
organisations as members.

The EuroLinux website is gaining a new appearance, see

	http://eurolinux.ffii.org/eurolinux/

	mirrored at 2 hour interval to

	http://www.eurolinux.org

We could use a similar style for eu.lojban.org.

We can install a mailing list lojban@xxxxxxxxx.xxx at

	http://www.eurolinux.org/mailman/listinfo/

for our lobbying group.  But, sorry, I won't be there to do all the
founding work.  There will be no Lojban lobbying voice in the EU without
the backing of the LLG.  I have to focus my attention on FFII and
EuroLinux itself.

-phm	



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Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:48:34 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: xa'unro'a xipapa

la jyryr. poi ze'u pendo zi'e noi kacma bo larcypra je
ke purci nuntru bo fapro ke'e ku'o (J.R., a longtime
friend of mine & ex-radical,) ba'o ge zbasu le kacmyxra
le mi'a speni ritli (has taken pictures of our wedding)
gi sa'u punji fi le skami julne .i se judri (& in short,
placed them on the Net at the following URL:) zoi .sy.
http://web2.airmail.net/~dragon23/ .sy. co'omi'e maikl.


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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 22:30:14
   From: dex@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lo xajmi



 > It should probably be ISO order (year month day) to match the
 > rest of the date stream.

 Of course.  For computer searches, it should be yyyymmdd.
 That's the only form that will ASCII sort correctly.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. cmalisri
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
      4. Re: prane stuzi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. minji nunfinti flalu bangu
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. Re: prane stuzi
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


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_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: cmalisri

mi puki kansa ko'a goi la kris. le ckafybarja zvati
.i mi'a casnu leka jmive .e leka banro .e leka pruxi
.ije'u lenu go'i kei di'i se gasnu mi'a .i ba lenu mi
tunlo le satnanba kei mi cusku
       lu ca lenu prulamdei kei mi sukjmi ledu'u
       mi roroi pinfu pe'a li'u
.i ko'a spaji gi'e lafti leko'a kalgai .i.u'i leko'a flira
roroi carmi leka cinmo .i ko'a cusku
       lu .uanai mo li'u
.i mi cusku
       lu pe'a mi roroi ravycta roda le canko li'u
.i la kris. sutspu
       lu canko ma li'u
.i mi na'e djuno .ita'o ko'a piso'iroi sutspu lemi sidbo .ija'ebo
mi na'eka'e frati .i ko'a roroi gasnu lenu mi pensi .ita'onai
mi ba cusku co senpi je masno
       lu pau lemi sevzi .i pau lemi menli .i pau lemi prenu li'u
.i ko'a cmila gi'e surla .i mi ca'o cusku
       lu ca lenu cabdei kei mi ganse da poi mi ze'u na'e ganse ke'a
       .i mi pu sanli le dagkoi .i mi zgana lei karce .i leka ri po'o
       zasti cu selmlu .i nadski .iku'i mi morji ledu'u do pu cusku
       lu .u'e cladu pe'a li'u li'u
.i ko'a xance darxi leko'a tuple gi'e cusku
       lu .u'i.u'i lei karce .i.iecai cladu .isa'e na cladu .iku'i
       cladu pe'a .u'i li'u
.i denpa .i mi'a cmatu'o lei ckafi gi'e ravycta fi le canko .i lo dilnu
se ctino fi lo solri .i ko'a pensi .ibabo ko'a cusku
       lu .ise'o mi pu jimpe fi ko'e goi lemi ganse fe ledu'u
       ganai mi ka'e jimpe fi ko'e gi le terbau cu manri ko'e li'u
.i ko'a simlu leka badri .a leka xanka .i mi gasnu le cinje be le mebri
       lu xu do casnu ne'i ledo sevzi li'u
selsku mi .i leko'a stedu slidesku gi'e cusku
       lu nago'i .i ju'ocu'i mi casnu ne'i lemi sevzi .ipo'obo
       lei prenu pagbu cu casnu .iku'i la'edi'u na'e srana li'u
.i mi cusku
       lu .oiro'e mi na'e jimpe li'u
       .i lu .oi.oi mi ca se tcini le jimte be le pensi be ko'e
       .i mi xenru lenu mi cizra .iku'i mi na'e djica lenu mi fekbi'o
       .i mi ganse leka fekba'o li'u
selsku ko'a
.i mi cusku
       lu .io je'e li'u
.i leko'a stedu cu farlu .ije ko'a cusku
       lu ki'e li'u
.i denpa .i cusku
       lu .e'u citka lei toljukpa finpe li'u
.i leko'a kanla co'a carmi



i was hanging out with cris at the coffeehouse.
we talked about life, growth, soul.  truly, the usual.
after i ate a danish, i said
       "yesterday i realized that i always feel imprisoned."
she was surprised and widened her eyes.  ah, her face is always
so expressive!  she said
       "wha..?"
i said
       "i feel like i'm always looking at the world through a window."
she snapped
       "a window in what?"
i didn't know.  you know, so often she responds so quickly to my ideas,
i can't react.  she always make me think.  but anyway, i hesitantly said
       "my self?  my psyche?  my personality?"
she laughed and relaxed, i said
       "today i felt something i haven't felt in a long time.  i was
       standing on the street, watching the cars.  it was as if they
       were the only things that existed.  hard to describe.  but i
       remembered you saying 'oh! so loud!'"
she slapped her thigh,
      "hehe, the cars!  oh yes it is loud!  well, not *loud*, but,
      you know, 'loud'. hehe"
pause.  we sipped coffee and looked out the window.  a cloud passed over
the sun.  she was thinking.  then she said
       "i understood something about my sensory thing, i can understand
       them only if i frame them in terms of communication."
she seemed sad or anxious.  i frowned
       "you mean you talk inside yourself?"
i said.  she shook her head,
       "no.  well maybe i talk in my head, but only the personality
       fragments talking to each other.  but that's beside the point."
i said
       "oog, i don't get it."
       "ack yuk i'm at the threshold on thinking about it.  i'm sorry
       to be weird, but i don't want to get crazy.  i can feel the
       craziness coming."
she said.
i said
       "yes ok"
she lowered her head,
       "thanks."
after a pause,
       "want to get sushi?"
her eyes lit up.


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Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:22:11 -0400
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

At 11:10 PM 6/16/99 +0200, you wrote:
>From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
>
>> 	http://swpat.ffii.org/lojban/
>
>changed to
>
>	http://eurolinux.ffii.org/lojban/
>
>We really need to put it on
>
>	http://eu.lojban.org
>
>Could the administrator of the lojban.org nameserver set eu.lojban.org
>to genba.ffii.org so we can proceed further?
>
>It is necessary that the "European Logical Language Lobbying Group" or
>whatever be founded officially in some country, preferably neither Germany
>nor France and have its own websige.  We can host it at ffii.org and give
>access to all members, but it should be clear that the lobbying group is
>affiliated with the Lojban Organisation.  EuroLinux needs independent
>organisations as members.

>There will be no Lojban lobbying voice in the EU without
>the backing of the LLG.  I have to focus my attention on FFII and
>EuroLinux itself.

First of all, there can be no official sanction without a vote of the LLG
Board or official membership.  At this late date, I don't see a reason to
convene a Board meeting in advance of the July 16-18 LogFest, and the
already scheduled annual meeting to be held on July 18.

I would like you to suggest a motion or set of motions which you would like
the membership to approve regarding this activity and the things you want
LLG to do in support of it.  It might be useful to include in these motions
in some official capacity either Colin Fine (UK) or Veijo Vilva (Finland)
who are European official members of the organization.

Secondly, even if the membership approves, it may still be impossible to
have official ties to LLG.  Our tax-exempt status may restrict us from
political lobbying in an organizational capacity.  When I receive your
motions. I will have someone look into the legal aspects based on what you
are specifically asking LLG to commit to.

This is the type of effort in which playing the game incorrectly may be
more harmful than not playing at all.

lojbab


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Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:44:48 +0200 (CEST)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: EU Patent Lobbying Statement

On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:

> This is the type of effort in which playing the game incorrectly may be
> more harmful than not playing at all.

I would then suggest that only interested people start playing the game,
creating the

  Association for Language-Independent Accessibility of Public Information
  http://eurolinux.ffii.org/lojban/

as a base.

This can be pursued independently and for the time being it could even run
as a workgroup of FFII or be registered in a EU country, if legal status
is needed.

FFII has tax-exempt charity status, and it won't be difficult for me to
justify this workgroup with the tax authorities.  Currently there is a
discussion between members as to whether "language-independent
accessibility" is an achievable goal.

How would you see this?  Is the claim too ambitious?

Can a loglang original be expected to be translatable into useful natlang
patent specifications some time in the not-very-far future?

To what degree can loglang parsability make texts more accessible to
patent search and content analysis programming?

-phm





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Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:28:35 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: prane stuzi

.i'o.i'e


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Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:18:48 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: minji nunfinti flalu bangu

pe'cu'i nu'o mutce co vamji lo lojbo te fanva fo lo
minji nunfinti flalu (A Lojban translation could be
quite valuable in patent law.) .i ku'i pe'i ca'oku le
bangu cu citno dukse fi leka satci skicu .i na banzu
(But i think the language itself is still too new to
be able to describe things precisely enough.) .i za'i
lujvo claxu (There are not enough lujvo) .i ji'a le ca
lujvo na pilno banzu (& those that are, aren't used
enough.) .i .u'uru'e tolzau la'ede'u (Sorry if i'm not
more positive on this.) co'omi'e maikl.


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Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:51:15 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: prane stuzi

i mletce pemci doi spigot  i carmi je vlipa
i di'e tolvai pinka tezu'e le nu jarco le nu mi tcidu
ge le glico xe fanva giji'a le mulno lojbo

>.ije do ba'o morsi

i lu do ba'o morsi li'u smuni dunli lu do balvi
le fanmo be le nu do morsi li'u i ue la'e zo do jmive
xruti i pe'i do skudji lu do ba'o mrobi'o li'u a lu do ba'o
co'a morsi li'u

co'o mi'e xorxes





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_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: lisri xibi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: minji nunfinti flalu bangu
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: lisri xibi
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Re: xa'unro'a xipapa
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:22:49 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lisri xibi

.e'u lu le po mi seljvo be zo prijyske li'u vau


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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:27:40 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: minji nunfinti flalu bangu

michael helsem wrote:

> From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> pe'cu'i nu'o mutce co vamji lo lojbo te fanva fo lo
> minji nunfinti flalu (A Lojban translation could be
> quite valuable in patent law.) .i ku'i pe'i ca'oku le
> bangu cu citno dukse fi leka satci skicu .i na banzu
> (But i think the language itself is still too new to
> be able to describe things precisely enough.) .i za'i
> lujvo claxu (There are not enough lujvo) .i ji'a le ca
> lujvo na pilno banzu (& those that are, aren't used
> enough.) .i .u'uru'e tolzau la'ede'u (Sorry if i'm not
> more positive on this.) co'omi'e maikl.
>

It's true there aren't enough lujvo at present, for patent law or a lot of
things (ta'o mi puza de'a finti le selcusku me'e lu le djice prijyske li'u
ku mu'i lenu jvozba cu mutce clatei).

OTOH, even with the most enthusiastic reception, actual official translation
would not start to happen for several years, which would give plenty of
opportunity for lujvo-making, and in the period between intial interest and
official recognition, the ranks of Lojban patent-translators would well
considerably, so there would be plenty of jvozbapre.

I don't actually think the project has much chance of success in the
short-term - far too radical for the eurocratic mind, but it is an excellent
forum for raising awareness of Lojban and it's possibilities, as well as
contributing to {pe'i} a worthy cause.

Next stage is to get the UN to back Lojban for international law ...


co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:33:07 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lisri xibi

la maikl. cusku di'e

>
> .e'u lu le po mi seljvo be zo prijyske li'u vau

In case anyone found this confusing, it was a reply to an offlist mail I
wrote:


> coi maikl.
> .i do cusku di'e
>
> > balvi .i ko'a .e mi ba'o bartu (Later. Me & Djuna have already
> > gone.)  .i la kornelius. e fo'e le prijyske ca'o casnu (Cornelius
> > & the Vicar are discussing philosophy.)
>
> .ua .ui le zo prijyske lujvo po mi ba'o se cusku
>
> (can I really put a {zo} in a tanru like that??)
>
> co'o mi'e robin.
>



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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:44:50 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: xa'unro'a xipapa

michael helsem wrote:

> From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> la jyryr. poi ze'u pendo zi'e noi kacma bo larcypra je
> ke purci nuntru bo fapro ke'e ku'o (J.R., a longtime
> friend of mine & ex-radical,) ba'o ge zbasu le kacmyxra
> le mi'a speni ritli (has taken pictures of our wedding)
> gi sa'u punji fi le skami julne .i se judri (& in short,
> placed them on the Net at the following URL:) zoi .sy.
> http://web2.airmail.net/~dragon23/ .sy. co'omi'e maikl.
>

Congratulations!

.a'o redo ba ca'o prami je gleki je kanro

co'o mi'e robin.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. lisri xiso
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. le bruna solri e le mensi lunra
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:36:21 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: lisri xiso

balvi balvi (Later still.) .i fo'a ckafybarja nenri .i
sevzi (Cornelius is alone in the coffeehouse.) .i ru'inai
savru fa lenu junla (The clock ticks.) .i tavla pensi
di'e (He thinks the following:) .itu'e morji le tcadu goi
ko'a sekai le cabna (I remember the city like today.) .i
darno (Far away.) .i purci (Long ago.) .i puzukiku rapkru
je jarki klaji (Twisting, narrow streets.) .i tolci'o dinju
(Ancient buildings.) .i norgusni joi bumru (Twilight & fog.)
.i klama ko'a fu le cmavinji (I came on a small airplane.)
.i da'i ko'e .io goi le pu bacru ge'u le ga'inai mibypre
cu penmi le ca'u barda mristu (She had told me to meet her
in front of the main post office.) .i my. ba'o ge punji le
selpo'e le pu se sabji kumfa (I left my stuff in the pre-
arranged room) gibabo litru le nitre'e mo'ifa'a le ki rixivo
(& then went there by subway.) .i denpa ko'e (I waited.)
.i gisemu'i ba'o vofli co minli le relki'o gi cipra fi le
si'o ko'e cu'ekau ralte co nupre fu my. (I had come 2000
miles to see if she would keep her word.) .i pensi co
preti lenu my. cu'ekau srera (I wondered if I was making
a mistake.) je segu'u da'icu'i ko'e ja'a penmi gi le
mubype'i cu'ekau broda cei selsmu le pu selsruma befa my.
Whether, even if she did meet me, it would mean what I'd thought it did.) .i
caviki jimpe roda (And now I understand.) .i fu'e.o'ucu'i.uu.i'a.iu.o'anai
ko'e my. puba penmi (She
was going to meet me) .i seni'inaibo na broda pubaku fu'o
(& it wouldn't mean what I thought it would.) tu'u


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Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:45:33 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra

Here's a translation of the "Canticle of Brother Sun and
Sister Moon" of St. Francis of Assisi, which someone
asked me to do to possibly include in a chamber opera
that he's composing. I would be very greatful for any
comments and suggestions to improve it. For example,
I'm not really convinced that {do ponse le nunzarsku e
le nunmanci e le nunsi'a e ro nuncesygau} is such
a good translation of  "all praise is Yours, all glory,
all honour and all blessings". Any ideas?
An English version follows the Lojban version.

co'o ki'e mi'e xorxes

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

le selsa'acma pe lei selfi'i

i doi galrai je rolvli je xamgu je nobli do ponse
le nunzarsku e le nunmanci e le nunsi'a e ro nuncesygau
i do po'o doi galrai ra ponse
i no remna cu bazyselva'i le nu cmeba'u do

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne fi'o kansa
ro le do selfi'i  i ra'u le nobli bruna solri noi ke'a donri
gi'e te gusni mi'a gau do gi'e melbi gi'e dirce
lo banli selmanci gi'e doi galrai cu sinxa do

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i le mensi lunra
e lei tarci vu'o noi do ke'a tsani zvati finti ja'e le nu tergu'i
gi'e carmi gi'e melbi

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i le bruna brife
e le vacri e le dilnu e le toljusra e ro tcima
noi sepi'o ka'e lei do selfinti do se sarji

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i le mensi djacu
noi se pilno mutce gi'e cumla gi'e dirba gi'e curve

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i le bruna fagri
noi do ke'a tergu'igau le nicte zi'e noi melbi je gekykei
je tolble je tsali

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i le mi'a mensi
no'u le mamta terdi noi ferti je turni mi'a gi'e cupra
loi vrici grute noi kansa lo skacfu xrula joi srasu

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i da poi ke'a
fraxu ki'u le nu prami do kei gi'e se tilju le nu bilma
gi'e selra'u i zandimna le pacna se tilju
ki'u le nu do doi galrai ba dasygau lo nolmapku

i ei selzarsku doi mibyselse'u fa do ne ka'i le mi'a mensi
no'u le xabni nunmorsi noi no jmive remna ke'a ka'e selcri
i uu ro da poi mrobi'o ca le nu ckaji le morsi ka ceirprozu'e
i zandimna ro da poi le nunmorsi ke'a penmi le nu zukte
le do se djica ku'o ki'u le remoi nunmorsi da na ba xlali

i doi ro da ko le mi selse'u cu selzarsku gi'e cesygau
gi'e ckire gi'e selfu co mutce cumla

                                       mi'e frantceskos pe la asisis

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canticle of Brother Sun and Sister Moon of St. Francis of Assisi:

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord,
All praise is Yours, all glory, all honour and all blessings.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong,
and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun,
Who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,
Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all weather's moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,
So useful, humble, precious and pure.

Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night
and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon
for love of You and bear sickness and trial.
Blessed are those who endure in peace,
By You Most High, they will be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape.
Woe to those who die in mortal sin!
Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.
No second death can do them harm.

Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,
And serve Him with great humility.




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra
           From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra
           From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 03:25:06 -0400
   From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra

>From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
>Here's a translation of the "Canticle of Brother Sun and
>Sister Moon" of St. Francis of Assisi, which someone
>asked me to do to possibly include in a chamber opera
>that he's composing. I would be very greatful for any
>comments and suggestions to improve it. For example,
>I'm not really convinced that {do ponse le nunzarsku e
>le nunmanci e le nunsi'a e ro nuncesygau} is such
>a good translation of  "all praise is Yours, all glory,
>all honour and all blessings". Any ideas?

ro bu'a cei zanskudu'a ja zanfridu'a ja zansi'adu'a ja zancesydu'a zo'u
broda do

???

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
  see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
  Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



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Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:52:18 -0300
   From: "=?us-ascii?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra


>>"all praise is Yours, all glory, all honour and all blessings". Any ideas?
>
>ro bu'a cei zanskudu'a ja zanfridu'a ja zansi'adu'a ja zancesydu'a zo'u
>broda do
>
>???


I suppose you mean {bu'a} instead of {broda} at the end.

But I think it doesn't work. {ro bu'a cei zanskudu'a zo'u bu'a do}
is equivalent to {zanskudu'a do}. For every predicate bu'a which
is "zanskudu'a" (and there is only one like it, isn't there?) then
{bu'a do} is true. That only says that {zanskudu'a do} is true,
nothing more.

{ro bu'a} quantifies over predicates, not over situations in
which a given predicate is true, which I suppose is what
you had in mind. Something like "for every situation in which
the predicate {zanskudu'a} holds, then {do} is what fills the
x2 place". But that's not what {ro bu'a} does.

Another question is what {ro bu'a cei broda ja brode}
means. Is that every predicate which is {broda je brode},
or is it every predicate which is either {broda} or {brode}?
You use it as if it was the second, but the normal use of
{cei} would be the first. Since {ro bu'a} in the prenex
is already an exception, I guess another exception
won't make matters much worse.

I think your idea could be expressed as something like:

    ro da poi zanskudu'a ke'a zo'u da du do
    For every x such that x is given praise, x = you.

That would work, but the original doesn't quite say that.
If praise can be a {se dunda} (something given), then
it can also be a {se ponse}, (something owned), right?
Because "all praise is yours" does not just say that
all praise is given to you. It says that it belongs to
you and therefore _should_ be given to you.

co'o mi'e xorxes








_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Lojban beginners' course
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      2. Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra
           From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
      3. a weirdo rant
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      4. a weirdo rant -- oops!
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:12:09 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Lojban beginners' course

coi rodoi

You may remember a couple of Lojban lessons I passed around the
list for comment.  Production of lessons stopped for some time as
a result of my wrestling with Linux, but I've finally got round
to putting what I've written so far on the web.  This is very
much a draft version. There's no index yet - the URL for Lesson 1
is

http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lesson1.html

and change the 1 to whatever lesson you want.  I'll add an index
soon.

There are 8 lessons so far, but lesson 8 is unfinished, and
lesson 5 seems to have got broken half-way through - I need to
dig around to see if I have another version somewhere (must have
saved an early draft by mistake).  I hope to end up with about 12
lessons, which should give the beginning Lojbanist a basic
knowledge from which they can jump off into the deep waters of
"The Complete Lojban Language."

All comments/corrections welcome.  As I've said, this is a first
draft, and the grand public opening won't be for a while, so
please don't link to the site yet.

co'o mi'e robin.



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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:17:51 +0100 (BST)
   From: Richard Curnow <richard@xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra


Jorge,

de'i li 19:6 vecu'u le notci
neme'e la'o xy. <01beba5a$012864c0$LocalHost@jorge> xy.
la'o xy. Jorge J. Llambas xy. pu ciska di'e la jbomriste :

(On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Jorge J. Llambas wrote:)

I found 3 minor grammatical errors that I had to fix to get it through my
parser :

> lo banli selmanci gi'e doi galrai cu sinxa do

I think should be

lo banli selmanci gi'e doi galrai do'u sinxa do

> noi sepi'o ka'e lei do selfinti do se sarji

Not sure on this one, maybe the following is correct?

noi sepi'o lei do selfinti do ka'e se sarji

> le do se djica ku'o ki'u le remoi nunmorsi da na ba xlali

You're trying to qualify a whole sentence with ki'u, you need an
abstractor somewhere, maybe ...

le do se djica ku'o ki'u lenu le remoi nunmorsi da na ba xlali

Now to start looking through the actual content ...

nunsi'a co'o mi'e ritcyd.

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England



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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:19:50 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: a weirdo rant

this one is kinda strange.  sorry for any typos.  i'd offer an english
translation, but...  i think it'd spoil the flavor.


.i blabi solji je xekri ranti bo bukpu .i lu ledo rasyjukpa pesxu flira
co'a vitke .itu'ibo le mentu be li pano cu niltei di'u lenu do co'a vitke
li'u ko'a selcku .i kanro binxo ba le ci djeci co vamtu je sedcro je tolvi'a
.i bikla sance lemi cutci co clani je xekri vi'a le loldi be lemi'a tcazda
.i panci lei sigja .e le mudri ctile .e lei pulce selsna .e lei rusko terku'u
.e lei snipa kerfa bumru .i lu ko na se litru lei cipni dargu li'u pu selcku
lemi mamta .i mi ca saldzu la pimvoi mo'izo'a lei salpo ctino befi lei dargu
tergu'i .e le navni poi ke'a se minra lei jacysfe koi lei xrula zarci .e
le djazai befi la abid. be'o .e lei larzai .e lei marnazai .e lei ckuzai
.i sutra sakci le sigja danmo

ni'o ne'iku lei bancu zirpu cu gusni lei pulce befi lei xutla silka .e
lei matli .e lei sunka .e lei skapi .e lei draci taxfu .i jirna bo kerfa
fenki bo xanka ciblu bo pinxe cizra bo cinse gletu bo djica ckule bo nixli
.i ropno melbi bo nanla .i jitfa tavla .i prami bo sisku xebni bo zukte
.i pinca bo birje .i renvi lenu sutra xukmi selzgi bo remna poi minde krixa
sezu'e mi'a poi citno je cortu bo desku fi'o zgike le jbari sakta
.i le segi'o bilma xrani mi'a leka censa badri draci sepi'o le cnino co
cando blabi verba broda .i cumki fa lenu mi'a casnu le fengu catra
.i so'uroiku mi'a casnu le xamgu purci temci poi cabna lenu le zgike
cu citno

ni'o paroiku mi tunlo le tsali broda .o'inai .ibabo leminu fadni kelci bo
gasnu cu binxo lenu runme terpa poi gundi krefu bo krefu dansu bo loldi
desku .ije lemi skapi cu cliva lemi bongu lei pelji danlu be sema'e lei
festi slasi bo kabri .i lemi xandegji jipno cu se sraku .i lemi pendo .uu
poi ctuca mi fo leka dansu be la dileit. bei pu'e lenu crepu lei grute
le curve tumla ku'o spaji catlu lei minra selpo'a poi krixa lu .ua.oi mi
mutce tolmle li'u pu'o lenu le sanga cu selsti .i .u'i pe'i da stapa le
dikca cilta .i mi .u'ecai le selzva cu tcecizra ca lenu cabycte
.i mi cpedu fi la djordj. poi skapi stedu gi'e se tcini leka condi bo nenri
jecta bo datni bo cabra ku'o fe le zasti cipra .ije la dy. frati lu
.oiro'e pau do cpedu fi mi li'u .i la'edi'u ricfu .i la dy. ta'e cusku lu


ni'o mi nelci le tcecte vanbi be le manku je kitybli je navni selstu be
fi'o terzai lei curve xispo be fi'o selcta lei xalka je censa bo badri nixli
.i lei xy. ru'i smaji gunta bo bacru .ibaibo ri djica lenu ba'e gletu mi
sepi'o lei juptci .iku'i lei xy. snuji cu betri .isebaibo mi klama le
lamji gusta poi carmi gusni .i lei kandi je bilma flira skami bo nanla cu
xendo gunka .i lei ny. djica lenu ri selfu vecnu lei kukrai saktadja poi
tolkargurai .i le gusta pu friti lei rasyjukpa jupci .i mi ta'e kucli
le tcebra staku pinji poi puze'a canko zvati







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Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:33:22 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: a weirdo rant -- oops!

oops, well in rereading i found some glaring errors in this post, most
obviously two lines missing after:

.i mi cpedu fi la djordj. poi skapi stedu gi'e se tcini leka condi bo nenri
jecta bo datni bo cabra ku'o fe le zasti cipra .ije la dy. frati lu
.oiro'e pau do cpedu fi mi li'u .i la'edi'u ricfu .i la dy. ta'e cusku lu


dunno how that happened, i should sign up for cut and paste class.
anyway, i'll post a corrected version tomorrow. :)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. a weirdo rant [corrected]
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
      2. mela senvi tcadu pamo'o
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. fatmi'u lerpoi
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. .uiri'ecai
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:13:59 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: a weirdo rant [corrected]

fixed my typos and cut-and-paste errors.  there are a few parts i'm
unsure of, but i *think* it all makes sense...  well, maybe not
*sense* per se...


.i blabi solji je xekri ranti bo bukpu .i lu ledo rasyjukpa pesxu flira
co'a vitke .itu'ibo le mentu be li pano cu niltei di'u lenu do co'a vitke
li'u ko'a selcku .i kanro binxo ba le ci djeci co vamtu je sedcro je
tolvi'a .i bikla sance lemi xekri tupcutci vi'a le loldi be lemi'a tcazda
.i panci lei sigja .e le mudri ctile .e lei pulce selsna .e lei rusko
terku'u .e lei snipa kerfa bumru .i lu ko na se litru lei cipni dargu li'u
pu selcku lemi mamta .i mi ca saldzu la pimvoi mo'izo'a lei salpo ctino
befi lei dargu tergu'i be'o .e le navni poi se minra lei jacysfe koi
lei xrula zarci .e le djazai befi la abid. be'o .e lei larzai .e lei
marnazai .e lei ckuzai .i sutra sakci le sigja danmo

.i ne'iku lei bancu zirpu cu gusni lei pulce befi lei xutla silka
.e lei matli .e lei sunla .e lei baknyskapi .e lei draci taxfu
.i jirna bo kerfa fenki bo xanka ciblu bo pinxe cizra bo cinse
gletu bo djica ckule bo nixli .i ropno melbi bo nanla .i jitfa tavla
.i prami bo sisku xebni bo zukte .i pinca bo birje .i renvi lenu sutra
xukmi selzgi bo remna poi minde krixa sezu'e mi'a poi citno je cortu bo
desku fi'o zgike le sakta jbari sanga .i le sego'i bilma xrani mi'a
leka censa badri draci sepi'o le cnino co cando blabi verba broda
.i cumki fa lenu mi'a casnu le fengu catra .i so'uroiku mi'a casnu
le xamgu purci temci poi cabna lenu le zgike cu citno

.i paroiku mi tunlo le tsali broda .o'inai .ibabo leminu fadni kelci bo
gasnu cu binxo lenu runme terpa poi gundi krefu bo krefu dansu bo loldi
desku .ije lemi skapi cu cliva lemi bongu lei pelji danlu be sema'e lei
festi slasi bo kabri .i lemi xandegji jipno cu se sraku .i lemi pendo .uu
poi pu ctuca mi fo leka dansu be la dileit. bei tai lenu crepu lei grute
le curve tumla ku'o spaji catlu lei minra selpo'a poi krixa lu .ua.oi mi
mutce tolmle li'u pu'o lenu le sanga cu selsti .i .u'i pe'i da pu stapa
le dikca cilta .i .u'ecai le selzva cu tcecizra ca lenu cabycte .i mi
cpedu fi la djordj. poi skapi stedu gi'e se tcini leka condi bo nenri
jecta bo datni bo cabra ku'o fe le zasti cipra .ije la dy. frati lu
.oiro'e pau do cpedu fi mi li'u .i la'edi'u ricfu .i la dy. ta'e cusku
lu mi na ponse le zdani .i mi na barkla ca lenu nicte .i mi nerkla li'u
.i .ionai.o'onai.o'unai.u'inai di'u

.i mi nelci le tcecte vanbi be le manku je kitybli je navni selstu be
fi'o terzai lei curve xispo poi catlu lei xalka je censa bo badri nixli
.i lei xy. ru'i smaji gunta bo bacru .ibaibo ri djica lenu ba'e gletu
mi sepi'o lei juptci .iku'i lei xy. snuji cu betri .isebaibo mi klama
le lamji gusta poi carmi selgu'i .i lei nanla poi kandi je bilma se flira
cu xendo gunka .i lei ny. djica lenu selfu vecnu lei kukrai saktadja poi
tolkargurai .i le gusta puza friti lei rasyjukpa jipci  .i mi ta'e kucli
le tcebra staku pinji poi puze'a canko zvati







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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:41:59 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: mela senvi tcadu pamo'o



le tcadu ba'o poslebna ba'e su'o te makfa (The City has taken
more than one magician...) ni'o leko'a goi lebi'u te makfa ge'u
pu'u finti je facki kei ba'o se jalge lenu ko'a jimpe ledu'u ko'e
goi le su'u bangu ge'u cu vajrai A certain magician's studies
had led him to conclude that Language was the key.) .i zo'onai
ko'e sei preti befi ko'a mo (But what was Language?) .i ko'a
co'a carmi tadni le fu'epe'a me zoi .gy. frankenstein .gy. me'u
pe loi selsku fu'o (He immersed himself in the "Frankensteins
f Speech") .i ja'ebo ka'e jijnu ge le selkelzba mukti pagbu be
lo nunta'a ja valylarcu selsku (until he could find the toymaker impulse in
slang or literary language) gi le rarna cnebai pagbu
be lo le spero ku selsku (& the authentic change-force in the
usage of Esperantists.) .i selmu'i joi selbai (The thing-intended,
mixed-with the thing-compelled.) .i la'edi'u ve zgana ko'e (Here
was the thing laid bare.) ni'o barkla mo'ipa'o le rapkru je jarki
klaji (He went out into the winding, narrow streets) tetai lo
noryru'i poi barda mukti ke'a (like a ghost with a mission.) .i
penmi la bramalsi pe le solji ke babysenta mirboi (He found t
he Cathedral of the Golden Soapbubble.) .i nenri (Went inside.)
.i gasnu lenu le lakygrana co'a jelca (Lit a candle.0 .i mokca c
o me leka ko'a ba'o fu'epe'a sanli le jipno be le cmana gi'ebabo mo'ito'o
plipe xeka'a le nalci fu'o (He "stood on a mountain with
wings & leapt".) .i blabi gluta ke xance janbe zgike (Whiteglove handbell
music.) ni'o ti'e co'u nu rarna bangu cusku kei ba
la'edi'u (They say he stopped using natural language after that.)
.i ze'abaku di'inai viska ko'a za'anai lenu kansa le cmima be
so'ile mipygri je mipypla pe le tcadu (Thereafter he was
irregularly heard of among the city's innumerable cabals & conspiracies.) .i
jebabo na go'i (Then he wasn't anymore.) ni'o
pe'icu'i naku ko'a cliva le bangu sidbo cuntu secau lo vrovru
pe'a (We believe it is not true that he was a leaver "without doornoise" of
the Language Idea Affair.) .i jeku'i pe'icu'i vi
krefu ko'a vau .ia (We believe in time he will return.)



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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:45:29 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: fatmi'u lerpoi


.u'e jimsmi je'u (palindrome: "(Wonder!) It's really metal-like!")



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Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:19:54 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: .uiri'ecai



.uiri'ecai .i ko dansu lemi cilce pruxi .i mi cusku lu .ie.oi lenu do
dasni lei silka cu mukti lenu mi jinvi ledu'u mi ponse lei to'e mapti pagbu
.iku'i .iaru'e la'edi'u xagmau lenu mi badri cando li'u .i ganai mi
ponse roda poi mi djica ke'a gi le munje co'a grusi je lenku gi'e lemi
xandegji jipno co'a se katna le jinci .ija'ebo gu mi pante gi mi nelci lenu
mi piso'uroi ka'e cpacu lei grute  .i doi la cevni ko dunda lepa grute mi ca
le nanca .i ko gasnu lenu mi klama ledo malsi .ije ko curve galfi mi va'o ledo
kukte tcica co kamfarvi .i .i'ore'ecai .i zo'o

.i lemi munje mo'iru'u sruri .i le sulbo'o cu marbi fi le sunbi'e be
le bertirai xamsi .iva'i fe'eba'o lei grana poi ragve lei festi tumla po'e
lei smaji menli ge'uku fe'eba'o lei lindi poi te pencu mi tai le ci'i cilta co
nejni foldi ku'oku mi cadzu lei broda tai lenu lei blaci ca'o porpi
.i .u'ore'ecai .i lei nixli cu djica lenu ri selzdi kei po'o .i mi na djica
lenu mi ze'u jmive .inaseja le djica cu na'e mapti .i mi na djica lenu mi dunda
lei tepsne .isa'u mi tcenei leka stace .isemu'ibo mi surla gi'e co'u xanka do
.i ko skicu ca lenu do farlu kei ca lenu do zgana lenu mi pu'o cadzu le kevna
.i rokci cpare lei cmana co makfa kamji'e .i le kamji'e cu selpo'e roda
.ije ma'a ka'e gasnu lenu ra dirce

.i mi pu tavla le ranmi je cevni krati lenu cfipu be mi bei fa lenu mi na'e
djuno ledu'u makau klesi leka prami ri'i mi .i ko'a cusku lu roda poi se sanji
do zo'u da xamgu li'u .i la'edi'u te damba mi .iku'i .ei.a'i mi sisti .ini'ibo
ko'a cevni vau zo'o .i mi za'o selsau lenu mi damba mi tai lenu mi dasni le
fukpi jenai krasi skapi .i mi na'eka'e jimpe fi lemi morna betai lei pluja
cinje .i lenu larcu ku jalge lenu siclu tu'i le tsani .i ca lenu mi krici
ledu'u mi facki fi lemi stuzi keikei mi suksa zgana leni mi zvasenpi .i
la'edi'u draselsfa .ini'ibo mi ta'e minde mi lenu mi zvali'a

.i tai le badri rorci bo troci co rutni mi na ponse lemi ro krasi jmadegji
.i mi seltai le selkei be lei remna .iva'i mi na'eka'e pavysei renvi
.i xu festi pau .i sei na'i .i .aipei mi kurji vau .eipei .i sei ju'onai
do na kurji .i ca lenu mi'a gleki bajra mo'izo'a lei solri bo darxi clani bo
tricu be fi'o jimca lei kuspe be le cambla tsani kukuku vi'a le mipri je
mlilenku ctino bo canlu be pa'u lei clika kei mi jinvi ledu'u roda drani
.ibabo ku'i mi morji ledu'u le munje cu sakci .i girzu leka natfe .ije'u
le munje cu sakci .iku'i sakci ji'a fa lenu xamgu molgle vauvau zo'o






_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. ko se pluka le narge
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: ko se pluka le narge



lenu citka lei narge kei na'e se tadji di'e .itu'e

lenu vimcu le calku le narge cu sarcu lenu citka lei narge .i do setca ledo
xance le dakli gi'e lebna lepa narge poi se calku gi'e catlu ri gi'e pensi
cusku lu mi djica tu'a le narge poi nenri le calku li'u .i do pu'o porpi
vimcu le calku le narge .icabo do pensi ledo djica be lenu narge citka
.ibabo ledo xandegji cu selcro ri'a lenu do porpi troci .iku'i do ca'o
troci mu'i lenu do djica tu'a le narge .ibabo le calku co'a porpi .ije
le narge cu lunbe .i do lebna le narge gi'e renro ri ledo moklu gi'e
se pluka lenu vusga'e leka silna je narge gi'e pensi cusku lu .u'a.u'a
mi ponse le narge .i le narge vrusi cu tcexau .i mi ca se pluka
le narge li'u tu'u

lenu citka lei narge kei se tadji di'e .itu'e

.i do setca ledo xance le dakli gi'e lebna lepa narge gi'e djica tu'a
le narge gi'e vimcu le calku gi'e renro ra ledo moklu .ibabo do co'a batci
.icabo do setca ledo xance le dakli mu'i lenu do djica tu'a le remoi narge
.i do ru'i pensi cusku lu .au narge li'u .i batci rapli .i .au narge tu'u

.i la'edi'u tamsmi leka gletu .i le tamsmi cu sevzi simsa tarmi
.isa'unai ko'a pensi cusku lu mi djica lenu vimcu lei taxfu fo'a li'u
.iku'i ko'a na pensi sisti tezu'e lenu zgana lefo'a melbi xadni
.i ko'a zgana lefo'a melbi xadni .icabo ko'a pensi cusku lu mi djica
lenu mi nenri fo'a li'u .iku'i ko'a na pensi sisti tezu'e lenu zgana
lefo'a glare je cilmo desku bo rectu be re'o ko'a .i ko'a zgana lefo'a
rectu .icabo ko'a pensi cusku lu mi djica lenu mi pinji spoja
.i doi le cevni .i .e'o ko curmi lenu mi pinji spoja li'u .iku'i
ko'a na pensi sisti tezu'e lenu zgana lenu flecu .i mulno co tolmansa
.ibabo ko'a kucli leni temci fi lenu ko'a kakne lenu zmadu gletu
.i ko'a djica tu'a le rapli gletu .i rapli gletu djica semu'i lenu ko'a
citke lei narge tezu'e lenu ko'a tsali zenba .icabo ko'a vi le guste cu
catlu lei melbi nalcpa ninmu

ni'o .i ko se pluka le narge .i roda poi do zgana ke'a cu zenba jalge lenu
do bredi lenu do gleki mrobi'o .i le rapli tcaci na te kavbu ko





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There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. mela senva tcadu remo'o
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra
           From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: Lojban beginners' course
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>


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Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:04:53 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: mela senva tcadu remo'o



vi'a ctatri fa re dacti pe vi le tsani be le tcadu (Two objects
dominate the sky over the City:) .i pamai majlarselpra sekai le
ka galtu co mitre li pabimu kei (a six-hundred-foot statue) ce'e
setai lo cevycpedysmi katcinki (of a praying mantis,) .i remai
barda rokyzda co nanca be li so'onono be'o jeke piso'asi'e
narxa'u (& the Castle, which is centuries old & mostly
abandoned.) .i le jamjinga le katcinki ba'o zbasu (The statue
was built by invaders.) ni'o ko'i goi la kornelius. noi jirna dasni
ku'o ge mo'ini'a klama fi le gidva clupa pe le rokyzda (Horned, Cornelius is
descending from a guided tour of the Castle,)
gica'obo co'a jundi lebi'u zgike poi simlu co flecu fo le ve'i
xamcizra tcatybarja (when he notices music coming out of
a quaint little teahouse nearby.) .i slabu (A familiar song.) .i
sanga la'e zoi .gy. exodus .gy. fa la piaf. (It's "Exodus",
sung by Piaf.) .i cinmo lenu spaji joi pluka ce'u (Amazement.)
.i viska le pu'u lei cipni ca'o vofli mo'iru'u le bramalsi (Sees birds
wheeling over the cathedral) .i tsani co pu'o carvi tcima
(against a sky about to rain.) .i co'u cadzu ca'u le barja poi
pu'o tu'a le vorme gi'ebabo fatne klama (He stops walking
in front of the bar he'd just been about to go into, & turns
back.) .i co'igi nenri gi le carmi carvi co'a farlu (As soon as
he steps inside, it begins to rain heavily.) .i mo'u selsanga
(The song finishes.) .i di'a frica selsanga (A different one
begins,) .i ji'a la piaf. co'e (also by Piaf.) ni'o ko'i pu noroi la'u
le nau mokca kuku gleki (He has never been so happy.)



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 04:27:54 -0300
   From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_J._Llamb=EDas?=" <jorge@xxxxxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: le bruna solri e le mensi lunra

coi ritcyd i mi do mutce ckire le nu dragau

>I found 3 minor grammatical errors that I had to fix to get it through my
>parser :
>
>> lo banli selmanci gi'e doi galrai cu sinxa do
>
>I think should be
>
>lo banli selmanci gi'e doi galrai do'u sinxa do

Right. I'll change it to {gi'e sinxa doi galrai do} instead. I tend
to forget that vocatives have the grammar of attitudinals, not
of terms.


>> noi sepi'o ka'e lei do selfinti do se sarji
>
>Not sure on this one, maybe the following is correct?
>
>noi sepi'o lei do selfinti do ka'e se sarji

That was a typo. {ka'e} should have been {ke'a}.


>> le do se djica ku'o ki'u le remoi nunmorsi da na ba xlali
>
>You're trying to qualify a whole sentence with ki'u, you need an
>abstractor somewhere, maybe ...
>
>le do se djica ku'o ki'u lenu le remoi nunmorsi da na ba xlali

Correct.

>Now to start looking through the actual content ...

i ui xamgu

co'o ki'e mi'e xorxes





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Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:42:37 +0300
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Lojban beginners' course

Thanks to all who have sent comments on and corrections to the beginners'
course - keep them flowing!  I'll amend the lessons accordingly in the next
few days, I hope.

co'o mi'e robin.



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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. leka narsmu
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:24:19 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: leka narsmu



le munje cu narsmu
.iku'i ganai do krici la'edi'u gi do na'e djuno fi le smuni be leka narsmu




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There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. le danre mapti
           From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:01:29 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Spigot <spigot@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: le danre mapti

lemi pendo befa la taras. puki vitke mi .i mi'a klama lo cizra tafzai
.i mi te vecnu le danre mapti ku pe'anai .i .u'i le danre mapti mo
.i mi terski le danre mapti lemi pendo befa la stus. di'e .i lei bilni
vinji sazri ka'e co'u cikna ca lenu tcesutra muvcne .isemu'ibo lei sazri
cu dasni le taxfu le demgapci danre be le xadni .itezu'ebo le sazri na
co'u cikna ri'a lenu leri ciblu cu stali le stedu .i le tubnu ciste cu
tcila le danre mapti .i birka tubnu .i tuple tubnu .i mlana je trixe
tubnu .iji'a le demgapci danre daski cu nenri le mapti .i ro le tubnu cu
jorne re tubnu moklu .ipe'i ri te jorne le demgapci danre minji .iji'a
so'i clani tagji bo cupra skori cu tcila le mapti .i ra noi simsa le
skori pe la korset. ku'o cpana le birka .e le tuple .e le cutne .e le
trixe .iji'a so'i jinme verla'a cu tcila le mapti .isa'u le mapti cu
cizra cizra taxfu .i mi djica tu'a ra ma .i mi na'e bilni vinji sazri
.iku'i mi ba klama le jelpre .i la'edi'u krinu lenu mi te vecnu le mapti
.i le jelpre mo .i .au mi ba jenai ca ciksi .i la taras. te vecnu
le creka be la flanl. vau .e'ero'e zo'o





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There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. mela spigot.
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. mela senva tcadu cimo'o
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. mela senva tcadu vomo'o
           From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


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Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:12:57 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: mela spigot.


.u'i pluja cinje



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Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:26:32 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: mela senva tcadu cimo'o


de'agi murta fi le baxso lakmonselbu'u poi ko'i catlu ke'a gi
janco pencu (He's looking at the batik cloth of the curtains
when there's a tap on his shoulder.) .i co'i trixe zo'u narzva
(Turns; no one is there.) .i xrute ja'e lenu crane ko'i fa le karda
.uedai (Turns back, & finds a card in front of him!) .i tcidu fi ri
fe di'e .itu'e ga'e ca cpedu fi do to'a (Reads the following:
"YOU ARE INVITED.) fe co'e pe ti'u le ctemidju ce'e tu'i le
cnita be le se serti po'u la .aifl. ce'e sede'i le pizemusi'e mokca
be le zenkai xabna'a ve pruce (At midnight, underneath the
Eiffel Tower, on Walpurgisnacht.") .i pensi co bacru lu
.i'unaisai .u'e .iicu'i .u'o.o'i .a'ecai (Thinks to himself: "What
does this mean?!) .i re nicte ca balvi (Two nights from now.)
.i xu .eipei klama (Should I go?) .i ja'o se'asai ri'e .o'inai li'u
(Why not!") ni'o nicte le remoi .i .uenaidai bevri ko'i fa le trene
poi romoi le donri (Two nights later he's not surprised to find
himself riding the last train of the day.) ku'o be la sancypurdi
noi stuzi le fukpi be la .aifl. bei le parbi befa li pafi'uci (It goes
to the Sound Garden, where a one-third replica of the Eiffel
Tower stands.) .i le cradi cu savru bacru bau lo stilerfu cafne
(The radio crackles in a language with many consonants.) .i
ganse vasxu le nicte vacri voi ranti (He inhales the soft night
air.) ni'o stuzi .i klama jmaji le so'umei zo'u pu'o so'omei (A few
have gathered; more will come.) .i xu ko'i bazi mipri cilre tu'i
levi ctino joi se senva (Will he learn secrets soon in this place
of shadows & dreams?)



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Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:36:21 PDT
   From: michael helsem <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: mela senva tcadu vomo'o



betri tcadu (Tragic city.) .i tcadu tu'i so'i ze'u seldri .e lei poi
tolcitno ku'o tolvrude (City of many long sorrows & ancient
wrongs.) .i melbi tcadu (Beautiful city.) .i tcadu sekai so'i dinju
teirtai (City of many architectural styles.) .i tcadu co gu'e mlivru
kutklaji gi smaji remgri (City of whispering empty-streets &
silent crowds.) .i palci te makfa tcadu (City of sorcerors.) .i
tcadu co jaivi mele cizra zgike poi ka'enai morji ba lenu tirna
ke'a (City of strange music impossible to remember after hearing
it.) .i tcadu ka'a lo se cirko (City where lost things go.) .i tcadu
ra'a lo se mipri (City of secrets.) .i tcadu sera'i lo se facki (City
of discoveries.) .i le le ninmu ku xutla je bunre xadni cu minra
le gusni be fi paci lakygrana (Her smooth brown body reflects
the light from thirteen candles.)



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