#1460
8:23 AM Mon 2 Aug 99
 Subject:  tecu'u la lojba
 From:  de-

From: de-@syslink.mcs.com



 > From: Goran Topic amada-@ibm.net

 > Keeping that in mind, can lojban be used for deducing the
 > universals of natural human languages?

 Offering a new vantage point for comparison can't be bad.
 There were many things we never knew about Earth until we
 looked at the Moon and the planets; and the more we look
 the more we learn.

 > Despite the fact that stringing rafsi feels very natural to me,
 > would such a deduction be scientifically solid, acceptable?
 > To make an acceptable scientific argument, I think it would
 > be necessary to show the parallelism between the compounding
 > mechanisms in lojban and natural languages. If you can do that,
 > though, why need lojban?
 > Convince me I'm wrong and I'll be very happy. I find it an
 > interesting subject.

 I'm not an expert on Lojban, but I've been accused of thinking.

  :=)

 Are you saying that for things to be similar,
 they must therefore be identical?


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#1461
3:27 PM Wed 4 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Updated old Lojban drama la sinderelwyd (long
 From:  Richard Curnow

From: Richard Curnow richar-@rrbcurnow.freeserve.co.uk


de'i li 19:7 vecu'u le notci
neme'e la'o xy. 199907200118.vaa2911-@brap-1.cais.net xy.
la'o xy. Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group xy. pu ciska di'e la jbomriste :

(On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group wrote:)

> From: Bob LeChevalier-Logical Language Group lojba-@lojban.org
>
> This year, however, we had Nick Nicholas present.  So after an all night
> effot by Nick and Nora, I am able to present you with an updated version of
> "la sinderelwyd." which is (we hope) correct and up to date in grammar and
> vocabulary.  In doing so, it takes its place as the longest piece of Lojban
> text ever written and verified grammatical by parsing, at around 11K.
>

Agreed, it runs fine through the parser for version 2.33 of the language.
For version 3.0 of the language there is a small problem, in the following
section :

.i sei ry. boi py. la sindereluyd. cu dunda
        .i do ca ponse le pikta
.i sei krefu nu makfa xancymuvdu se'u
        .ije le selgunka ca mulno
.i to'i sindereluyd. toi:       .ui  .i mi ca kakne lenu klama le nunsalci
.i  .y  naku .uu mi ponse lo mapti taxfu

The problem is the 3rd and 4th lines above.  In version 3.00, an ijek must
follow a statement-1 or statement-2 (refer to bnf.300).  However, the
thing before the ijek in line 4 is just an 'I' followed by a 'free'.
Neither statement-1 or statement-2 can be reduced to by just a 'free'.
Comparison with the equivalent part of bnf.233 shows why it works in the
older version - I leave it as an exercise to the reader to look up the
details!

To fix this for version 3.00 I think the following change might be OK :

.i sei ry. boi py. la sindereluyd. cu dunda
        .i do ca ponse le pikta
.ije sei krefu nu makfa xancymuvdu se'u
        le selgunka ca mulno

i.e. just move the je to the start of the preceding line and make the
'free' come at the start of the following sentence.

That's my only comment so far, I'm still reading through.

co'o mi'e ritcyd.

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England


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#1462
9:41 AM Thu 5 Aug 99
 Subject:  Solicito DIfusion
 From:  Humberto Pedraza Alvarez

Estimado seqor:
Deseamos solicitarle que estudie la posibilidad de poder difundir a travis de la
 lista a la cual Ud. pertenece la siguiente propuesta que puede ser interesante
 para algunos de los integrantes de la misma.
Sabemos que por razones de reglamento este tema puede ser considerado "off
 topic" por tal motivo le estamos solicitando que evalze la posibilidad de
 difundir este mensaje, en las listas que Ud. integra.
La Fundacisn Voy cada Vez Mejor (Institucisn sin fines de lucro), esta
 promoviendo el "Programa Para Despertarse Cada vez Mejor", con el propssito de
 incrementar los recursos destinados al fondo de becas a estudiantes de escuelas
 primarias en la Repzblica Argentina que por razones econsmicas no pueden
 acceder a la escuela secundaria.
Agradecemos desde ya la atencisn dispensada a la presente y mucho estimaremos
 cualquier orientacisn o iniciativa con respecto a la difusisn de la presente
 tarea, como asi tambien el reenvio a otras listas o medios de difusion.
Saludamos muy afectuosamente
Humberto Pedraza Alvarez
Presidente
Nilza Duarte
Secretaria
FUNDACION VOY CADA VEZ MEJOR
Para el desarrollo de las potencialidades humanas
http://www.fundcvmejor.com.ar
inf-@fundcvmejor.com.ar
lista-@fundcvmejor.com.ar
Bartolomi Mitre 3743 - 1 - "A"
(05411) 4981-7901 / 4958-2520
(1201) Buenos Aires - Argentina
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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Esta diseniado con el principal objetivo de ser util, simple y de facil empleo
 domestico o como complemento de cualquier tratamiento medico o psicologico.
No posee ningun mensaje subliminal y esta grabado con musicas especialmente
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Ha sido empleado con extraordinario exito por numerosos padres que lo han usado
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insomni-@fundcvmejor.com.ar
FUNDACION VOY CADA VEZ MEJOR
Para el desarrollo de las potencialidades humanas
http://www.fundcvmejor.com.ar
inf-@fundcvmejor.com.ar72712.3103@compuserve.com
Bartolome Mitre 3743 - 1 - "A"
(1201) Buenos Aires - Argentina
Tel-Fax: (05411) 4981-7901 / 4958-2520
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++#1463
7:15 AM Fri 6 Aug 99
 Subject:  cilre loi te gismu
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

se'i nandu fa lo cilre be loi te gismu porsmu (It isn't easy,
i find, learning the sumti-places.) .i ba'o pensi le nabmi
(I've thought about the matter,) .ije co'a jinvi ledu'u
xamgu fa lenu fendi ro gismu le tecygri le nu kancu le klani
be le tergi'u (& i'm beginning to think it would be a good
idea to divide gismu into "conjugations" according to their
number of arguments.) .i le tecygri ja klesi nu'o mumei
(There would be five conjugations.) .i fu'eda'i le klesi be
le gismu bei leka li pa ni tergi'u kei cu se cmene la narju
xarju ku mi (The conjugation of one sumti i name "Orange
Pig";) .i fi mi le klesi be le gismu bei leka li re ni tergi'u
kei cu se cmene la grusi gunse (two sumti, "Gray Goose";)
.i le klesi be le gismu bei leka li ci ni tergi'u kei cu se
cmene la crino cinfo (three, "Green Lion";) .i le klesi be
le gismu bei leka li vo ni tergi'u kei cu se cmene la blabi
smani (four, "White Monkey";) .i le klesi be le gismu bei
leka li mu ni tergi'u kei cu se cmene la nukni jukni (five,
"Magenta Spider".) fu'o .i to'u pe'ipei co'omi'e maikl. (Any comments?)


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#1464
11:56 AM Sat 7 Aug 99
 Subject:  ponjo  larskivla
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

fu'esa'enai fanva zoi py. aware py. la lojban. fu zo
selcinmygau .i fanva zoi py. wabi py. fu zo zanynalprane .i
fanva zoi py. sabi py. fu zo tolcitmle .i fanva zoi py.
yuugen py. fu zo smaractce fu'o


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#1465
4:08 PM Tue 10 Aug 99
 Subject:  le jungo  namselkei (puzzle)
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


i jungo namselkei i tolkargu je sampu selkei i simsa
lo'e daski junla le ka mitre i claxu ro spaji lujyca'a
i le plita mudri noi xunrybunre ba'o se sraku ja'e loi blanu
ke farvrici xanle noi ro ke'a pluta lo cmalu kevna i le bolci
noi si'a blanu cu se punji ei fi pa le xanle ebabo le kevna
tai le nu salpygau je deskygau le tanxe i ca le nu le bolci
cu nenri le kevna kei le nunkei cu mulno i le nu krefu cfari
cu sarcu le nu deskygau ja'e le nu le bolci cu bartu le kevna
i le dacti cu se gacri lo jdari blaci bolxadba i le namselkei
ka'e se punji fi le daski gi'e se bevri gi'e fe'eroroi se lebna
gi'e se kelci

i ze'a le nu le bolci na ca'o se pilno kei piso'eroiku
by fa'ajeto'o trixe jorne xance cadzu le plita gi'e rivbi
lei xanle i by jinvi le du'u by banzu se fanza lei xanle ze'a
le nu ca'o kelci kei gi'eseki'ubo zifre le nu surla bu'u
le kalri plita ca le nu no nunkei ca'o fasnu i so'uroiku
by galtu catlu le bolxadba blaci iku'i la'e di'u se rinka
le tcaci gi'enai se zukte fi le nu facki da le galtu
i by bajra fo lo preja gi'e xusra le du'u by na se matyzba
fi lei jarki xanle i di'u pagbu jetnu i ja'a lei xanle cu
tagji vasru by i ku'i ji'a jitfa i fatci fa le du'u le bolci
cu jundi se zbasu tezu'e le nu by satci mapti
le xanle remoi cimde i li'a na zukte fi le nu lei xanle
cu se kufra by i va'oda'i le nu ja'a go'i kei na namselkei

--------------------

i la'e di'u se finti la franz kafkas gi'e xe fanva fu mi
co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1466
4:26 PM Tue 10 Aug 99
 Subject:  oi
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


For some reason I became unsubscribed from lojban-list
about three weeks ago (I only now realized that's what
happened, I thought we were going through one of those
silent periods). Now I'm trying to resubscribe from my
usual address, but onelist won't let me do it. It says
mails sent to me bounce, but I'm receiving mails ok from
other places. Anyone knows what I can do about it?

ki'e doi sidju
co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1467
11:20 AM Wed 11 Aug 99
 Subject:  tcati
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

di'e nu'oki ritli fi lei lobypre fe lenu jukpa le tcati
(Lojban tea ceremony:) .itu'e ko'a goi le se vitke cu punji
le tcati tutci lo kumfa poi smaji zi'epoi barda je se gusni
nardukse (The host lays out the tea things in a room that is
quiet & not too big or too bright.) .i re lakygrana poi blanu
cu sinxa leka pruxi (Two blue candles stand for the spiritual.)
.i bu'u le bitmu ku lo papri poi larcu te ciska cu sinxa leka
rutni (On the wall a page of calligraphy stands for the
artificial.) .i ni'a py. ku lo jimca poi nalbra cu sinxa leka
rarna (Below it a twig stands for the natural.) .i ta'o le
tcati kabri cu mapti nalprane (Note: the tea cups do not
entirely match.) .ije banzu fa le sorcu be le pe le ritli ku'o
temci (And enough time is allowed for the performance of the
ritual.)

ni'o ca lemu'e ko'e goi role vitke ba'o klama kei ko'a gasnu
lenu jelca fa le lakygrana (When all the guests have arrived
the host lights the candles,) .i bacru lu caku pu'o tcati .ai
li'u (saying, "Now begins the making of the tea.") .i febvi
le djacu (The water boils.) .i bacru lu .e'o ma'a jundi le
papri li'u ("Let us observe the lettering.") .i ko'e porsi
skicu le papri fo pa tanru (The guests take turns describing
the lettering with a single tanru.) .ibabo ko'a tisna le
tcatypatxu (The host then fills the teapot.) .i denpa ze'i
le mentu be li mu (All are silent for five minutes.) .i ko'a
xadba tisna role kabri le tcati (The host pours the tea.) .i
bacru lu bredi ju'i (Says, "See! it is ready.) .i le ti mokca
ja'a nau rolmunje (This moment is everything.) .i .e'o ge pinxe
gi jundi le vrusi joi panci pe le tcati .io li'u (Let us drink,
& observe the taste & aroma of the tea.") .i ko'e .e ko'a
pinxe (They drink.) .i ko'e porsi skicu le tcati fo pa tanru
(The guests take turns describing the tea with a single tanru.)
.ibabo ko'a bacru lu .uo .i'i mo'u gunma co pinxe le tcati .io
(The host says, "Now we have shared tea.) .i .e'aru'e klama fa
ma'a (Let us depart.) .i ko kurji ko li'u (Take care.") .i gasnu
lenu canci fa le fagri (He puts out the candles.) .i ko'e .e
ko'a co'a sanli (All stand.) .i sa'u fanmo le ritli befi lei
lobypre befe le tcati (Thus ends the Lojban tea ceremony.)
tu'u

.iji'ali'a tigni levi ritli sepi'o lo lenku tcati .a lo xelso
ckafi .a lo jikryxre (It can also be performed with iced tea,
Greek coffee or cocktails substituted.)


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#1468
12:54 PM Wed 11 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: tcati
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





This sounds like a wonderful event to schedule for Logfest 2K. Helsem should do the honors.










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#1469
1:24 PM Wed 11 Aug 99
 Subject:  banzu xipavo
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

ko morji le morsi


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#1470
1:24 PM Wed 11 Aug 99
 Subject:  banzu  xipamu
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

fange jenai cizra


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#1471
2:09 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  de'a  cmima
 From:  Colin Fine

From: Colin Fine coli-@kindness.demon.co.uk

mi de'a terbenji cmima le mriliste ki'u lenu mi te bende fo loinu sazri
re le dracydi'u pe la Edynbyr korb bratigyterganzu
.i di'a terbenji ca la somas
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
|     Colin Fine    66 High Ash, Shipley, W Yorks. BD18 1NE, UK       |
|  Tel: 01274 592696/0976 635354  e-mail:  coli-@kindness.demon.co.uk |
|        "Don't just do something! Stand there!"                      |
|              - from 'Behold the Spirit' (workshop)                  |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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#1472
4:27 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  lei skami tanru pe la  xod
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


>Program: skami pruce (is this in standard use?)

I have seen {selpla} or {skami selpla} used a few
times. The execution of a program might be a
process, but the program itself?

>also (immaterial machine: mucti minji, especially when referring to Object
>Oriented code)

I like that one.

>Operating System: skami pruce zbepi (want to convey it as the basis
>forprograms)

That might work. But a {skami pruce} would be
a program running, not the program code.

>Internet: skami munje nirna

Maybe too metaphorical. In any case, shouldn't
it be {selnirna}? But {skami munje terjudri}
seems to work well.

>Software: tolmarji <aspect> skami (what's the word for
>"aspect"?)

{pagbu}? {tcila}?

>Hardware: marji <aspect> skami

Or you could just say {skami tolmarji} and {skami marji}.

>content: selcusku
>hypertext: to'e linji selcusku

Maybe. What is the opposite of a line for connecting
some set of points? Another possibility could be
something like {vrici terjo'e selcusku}.

>multimedia: ricfu selcusku

Or {vrici velcusku}

>WWW: selcusku nirna

I like the Esperanto translation of WWW,
which is TTT. (Standing for Tut-Tera Teksajxo.)
Is it really necessary to distinguish between
WWW and Internet?

>Data: lei datni (data-mass)
>Information: tolciste fatci (facts-mass)

Why not just {fatci}? Can't you have systematic
information? I admit that I don't understand the
distinction you want to make here between data
and information.

>Knowledge: smuni fatci (meaning-mass)

Also {seldjuno}.

>do we have a word like "meta"?

{bancu} is probably closest. But I prefer, for
example, {vasru bangu} for "metalanguage".

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1473
4:27 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  lei skami tanru pe la  xod
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com

>Program: skami pruce (is this in standard use?)

I have seen {selpla} or {skami selpla} used a few
times. The execution of a program might be a
process, but the program itself?

>also (immaterial machine: mucti minji, especially when referring to Object
>Oriented code)

I like that one.

>Operating System: skami pruce zbepi (want to convey it as the basis
>forprograms)

That might work. But a {skami pruce} would be
a program running, not the program code.

>Internet: skami munje nirna

Maybe too metaphorical. In any case, shouldn't
it be {selnirna}? But {skami munje terjudri}
seems to work well.

>Software: tolmarji <aspect> skami (what's the word for
>"aspect"?)

{pagbu}? {tcila}?

>Hardware: marji <aspect> skami

Or you could just say {skami tolmarji} and {skami marji}.

>content: selcusku
>hypertext: to'e linji selcusku

Maybe. What is the opposite of a line for connecting
some set of points? Another possibility could be
something like {vrici terjo'e selcusku}.

>multimedia: ricfu selcusku

Or {vrici velcusku}

>WWW: selcusku nirna

I like the Esperanto translation of WWW,
which is TTT. (Standing for Tut-Tera Teksajxo.)
Is it really necessary to distinguish between
WWW and Internet?

>Data: lei datni (data-mass)
>Information: tolciste fatci (facts-mass)

Why not just {fatci}? Can't you have systematic
information? I admit that I don't understand the
distinction you want to make here between data
and information.

>Knowledge: smuni fatci (meaning-mass)

Also {seldjuno}.

>do we have a word like "meta"?

{bancu} is probably closest. But I prefer, for
example, {vasru bangu} for "metalanguage".

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1474
4:28 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  lei skami tanru pe la  xod
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


>Program: skami pruce (is this in standard use?)

I have seen {selpla} or {skami selpla} used a few
times. The execution of a program might be a
process, but the program itself?

>also (immaterial machine: mucti minji, especially when referring to Object
>Oriented code)

I like that one.

>Operating System: skami pruce zbepi (want to convey it as the basis
>forprograms)

That might work. But a {skami pruce} would be
a program running, not the program code.

>Internet: skami munje nirna

Maybe too metaphorical. In any case, shouldn't
it be {selnirna}? But {skami munje terjudri}
seems to work well.

>Software: tolmarji <aspect> skami (what's the word for
>"aspect"?)

{pagbu}? {tcila}?

>Hardware: marji <aspect> skami

Or you could just say {skami tolmarji} and {skami marji}.

>content: selcusku
>hypertext: to'e linji selcusku

Maybe. What is the opposite of a line for connecting
some set of points? Another possibility could be
something like {vrici terjo'e selcusku}.

>multimedia: ricfu selcusku

Or {vrici velcusku}

>WWW: selcusku nirna

I like the Esperanto translation of WWW,
which is TTT. (Standing for Tut-Tera Teksajxo.)
Is it really necessary to distinguish between
WWW and Internet?

>Data: lei datni (data-mass)
>Information: tolciste fatci (facts-mass)

Why not just {fatci}? Can't you have systematic
information? I admit that I don't understand the
distinction you want to make here between data
and information.

>Knowledge: smuni fatci (meaning-mass)

Also {seldjuno}.

>do we have a word like "meta"?

{bancu} is probably closest. But I prefer, for
example, {vasru bangu} for "metalanguage".

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1475
4:39 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  oise'i
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


mi xenru le rapli be li ci doi prenu
i le nu mrilu be fo le ca judri cu dukse
le ka pluja

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1476
4:51 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  tecu'u le cnino bartu
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


mi pu troci le nu mrilu la'e di'e de'i li remupi'eze
i ku'i li'a mi na snada i rere'u troci

------------------------------------------------------

zo kevna cu pagre le vorme ca'ocma le prenu poi crane
be le vorme be'o le prenu poi trixe be le vorme i ze'epu
noroi sarcu fa le nu spuda lo mipri valsi kei le nu nerkla
le ckafybarja i ku'i le vitke cu se spaji nagi'enai se cfipu
i le danfu cu slabu vy noi noda pu cusku dy ke'a i vy
ja'e le nu le vorme se kargau cu bacru zo ctino

ni'o nenri i so'o voksa cu se mixre i da gleki le nu
le kumfa cu minji zanlenku ki'u le nu crisa gi'e le
bartu vacri cu gladu'e i lo drata cu gleki le nu le kumfa
cu fagri zangla ki'u le nu dunra gi'e le bartu vacri
cu lekydu'e i roda kufra i lei se casnu cu vrici
i ma ba ka'e zgana le bazi nu le lunra cu gacri
le solri i lei na'e te toltugni no'u mu'a le nu jamna
pe le ropno midju cu sutra se pinka gi'e se tolmorji
i lo vajni nundau cu se tisna le piso'e be le temci
i ma satci smuni zo tanbo i xu lo tanbo ka'e se
tarmi lo kurfa i da jinvi le du'u go'i i de da na tugni
i da tolzbasu lo mudri stizu gi'e jarco le se zutse
pagbu de gi'e krixa lu ti tanbo i ti krufa tanbo li'u
gi'e jibni le nu lamjygau le dacti le de stedu tezu'e
le nu cipra le nu di'u jetnu i ku'i de na curmi le nu
te stidi i bazaku preti fa le du'u makau satci smuni
le du'u lo prenu cu nanca lo namcu i xu le cabna
prenu cu mintu le balvi prenu i xu lo rirxe ka'e reroi
se vitke i lei zvati cu jdice le du'u le munje ba mulno
gi'e se fanmo de'i li reki'o

ni'o le vitke be le ckafybarja cu cliva i vy pensi lei
xanto pe le duntubzda targri i go'i lei ti'ocpi poi xy
finti i vy viska lo nanmu noi dasni lo cizra da'ermapti
noi se jadni loi skori ku joi loi jinme verla'a i lo jmaji
cu nitcu lo jitro sidbo ca le nu zenba i oi

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1477
8:39 PM Thu 12 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la xod
 From:  TommyLee Whitlock
From: "TommyLee Whitlock" tommyle-@whitlock.org





#1478
7:06 AM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la xod
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la tomis mi spuda die

> > Is it really necessary to distinguish between
> > WWW and Internet?
>
>Yes, most definitely, it is necessary.  The WWW is at best a subset
>of the Internet.  The Internet is the network/system that the WWW
>runs on.  You have the Internet without the web, as was the case only 4
>years ago, for FTP, BBN, irc, email, telnet, usesnet news,
>uucp, etc.  The current lay-misconception that the two are the same
>is fostered by the high visibility of the Web.

I understand there is a technical difference. What Im
questioning is how much this distinction is worth making.
We certainly need one word for the commonly used concept.
Do we need two separate words outside of technical
discussions? Why is this necessary?

coo mie xorxes


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#1479
8:47 AM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei skami tanru pe  la xod
 From:  William Tanksley
From: William Tanksley wtanksl-@dolphin.openprojects.net

On Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 07:06:39AM -0700, Jorge Llambias wrote:
> From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
> la tomis mi spuda die

> > > Is it really necessary to distinguish between
> > > WWW and Internet?

> >Yes, most definitely, it is necessary.  The WWW is at best a subset
> >of the Internet.  The Internet is the network/system that the WWW
> >runs on.  You have the Internet without the web, as was the case only 4
> >years ago, for FTP, BBN, irc, email, telnet, usesnet news,
> >uucp, etc.  The current lay-misconception that the two are the same
> >is fostered by the high visibility of the Web.

> I understand there is a technical difference. What Im
> questioning is how much this distinction is worth making.
> We certainly need one word for the commonly used concept.
> Do we need two separate words outside of technical
> discussions? Why is this necessary?

The WWW is a collection of HTML documents served over HTTP, often using
TCP/IP.  The Internet is a huge, decentralized network using TCP/IP.

There are hundreds of other services available over the Internet, and the
Internet isn't needed to use the web (although it's currently the best
way, and most sites are only reachable by going through the Internet).

Note that online games and chat are almost always completely unrelated to
the web.  Also this email group.

If you refer to the Internet as the Web, we'll probably understand, since
context matters and the Internet can do things the web can't do
efficiently, if at all.  But if you want to be certain we understand, you
have to use the right words.

> coo mie xorxes

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley

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#1480
9:52 AM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  lei skami  tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:





#1481
1:06 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  lei skami  tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:






#1482
2:34 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  bestat-

From: bestat-@aol.com

In a message dated 8/13/1999 4:07:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, xo-@bway.net
writes:

> Data: 5
>  Information, data in context: "5 is the square root of 25"
>  Knowledge, info in context: the skill of finding square roots
>
So, continuing the pattern, what would knowledge in context be?
And '(knowledge in context) in context'?

Similarly, and completely off-topic,
distance        m
velocity:       m/s
acceleration    m/(s^2)
jerk            m/(s^3)

So what would a change in jerk be? And so on?
Steven Lytle

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#1483
2:41 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  William Tanksley
From: William Tanksley wtanksl-@dolphin.openprojects.net

On Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 05:33:09PM -0400, bestat-@aol.com wrote:
> From: bestat-@aol.com
> In a message dated 8/13/1999 4:07:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, xo-@bway.net
> writes:

> > Data: 5
> >  Information, data in context: "5 is the square root of 25"
> >  Knowledge, info in context: the skill of finding square roots

> So, continuing the pattern, what would knowledge in context be?

Understanding.

> And '(knowledge in context) in context'?

Possibly wisdom.

I'm not sure, though; the contexts mean different things.

> Steven Lytle

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley

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#1484
2:50 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei skami tanru pe  la ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 bestat-@aol.com wrote:






> From: bestat-@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 8/13/1999 4:07:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, xo-@bway.net
> writes:
>
> > Data: 5
> >  Information, data in context: "5 is the square root of 25"
> >  Knowledge, info in context: the skill of finding square roots
> >
> So, continuing the pattern, what would knowledge in context be?
> And '(knowledge in context) in context'?
>
> Similarly, and completely off-topic,
> distance        m
> velocity:       m/s
> acceleration    m/(s^2)
> jerk            m/(s^3)
>
> So what would a change in jerk be? And so on?#1485
4:35 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  lei skami  tanru pe ma'a
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la xod cusku di'e

>But samselpla could refer to design for the motherboard, or a CAD design
>for something unspecified

True, although the times I've seen it used it was
clear from context what it was meant. It is probably
impossible to give a complete and precise definition
with a simple lujvo.

>It would have to be x1 skami selpla be le skami pruce

Yes, selpla be _fi_ le skami pruce. The x2 place
is for the programmer. One could use the full
skami pruce selpla when there is a chance of
misunderstanding, and just selpla when the context
makes it clear. After all, "program" also has a
variety of meanings in English and yet usually
there is no need to be more specific.

>terjudri is a good concept, but on some technical levels, there is more to
>the internet or tcp/ip than a collection of addresses or sites.

But do we need to have all that there is to it specified
within the lujvo? The best _technical_ name for the
Internet is probably {la internet}, which has also been
used quite a lot already, and of course has no descriptional
content whatsoever in Lojban.

> > >Software: tolmarji <aspect> skami (what's the word for
> > >"aspect"?)
> >
> > {pagbu}? {tcila}?
>
>Neither of these quite grasp the concept for me. Maybe su'u pagbu?
>Does the scope of su'u have to be marked by fu'e/fu'o? Help!

{su'u} works just like {nu}, it belongs to the same selmaho.
I'm not sure it helps here, but I don't really understand
what it means.

Why not just {pagbu}? What would be the difference
between the immaterial part of a computer and the
immaterial aspect of a computer?

>How about selsmuni?

I don't know. Anything with meaning is a selsmuni.
Are you saying that {skami} has two meanings (or
senses), the material sense and the immaterial sense,
so that software is a full skami in one sense
and hardware is a full skami in another sense?
Or are you saying that software and hardware are
two components of a full skami?

>Perhaps "software" is adequately covered by mucti minji and "information",
>and hardware can be covered by skami or skami minji (peripherals)?

Well, if you have {mucti minji} you may want to
use {marji minji} for balance. {minji} alone would
cover both.

> > >content: selcusku
> > >hypertext: to'e linji selcusku
> >
> > Maybe. What is the opposite of a line for connecting
> > some set of points? Another possibility could be
> > something like {vrici terjo'e selcusku}.
>
>I don't understand this.

"Variously connected text"? I just can't visualize
the kind of connections present in hypertext as the opposite
of a line, that's all. Maybe just {na'e linji}?

> > >WWW: selcusku nirna
>
>vrici velcusku selnirna?

VVV: vrici velcusku vasru ?

> > I like the Esperanto translation of WWW,
> > which is TTT. (Standing for Tut-Tera Teksajxo.)
>
>What does Tut-Tera Teksajxo mean?

Whole-Earth Web. Almost a word for word translation,
but what I like about it is that it keeps the three
equal letters silliness.

MMM: mulno munje m????

I very much doubt the Web would have gained the
entity it has as distinct from the Internet without
its wonderful name. Maybe that's why "TTT" has been
quite accepted in Esperanto, but there is no
particular name for it that I know of in Spanish,
for example. I would not bother to find it
a name in Lojban unless it was equally striking,
but that's just me.

>Data: 5
>Information, data in context: "5 is the square root of 25"
>Knowledge, info in context: the skill of finding square roots

Then {datni} sounds more like information, if you look
at its x2 and x3 places. Maybe something using {selci}
for data?

>Upon reflection perhaps these are sufficient: data = lei datni,
>information = lei fatci, knowledge = lei smuni

Probably you'd want all words with the same place
structure if they're supposed to contrast with
each other.

>Does selklesi mean superset?
>
>We have to distinguish between sets and meta, and membership.

Yes, {klesi} is for subsets and supersets, and {cmima} for
membership. I had never heard of "meta" in the context of
set theory.

>A is a superset of B: HTML 1.0 is a superset of HTML 2.0 (you get the idea)

I would have thought HTML 2.0 would be the superset!

>A is a member of B: HTML is a member of the set of markup languages
>A is meta to B: XML is meta to HTML

I'm not familiar with markup languages. What does it mean
that A is meta to B?

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1486
5:02 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la xod
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


>From: William Tanksley wtanksl-@dolphin.openprojects.net
>
>If you refer to the Internet as the Web, we'll probably understand,

Actually, I probably refer to the Web as the Internet,
not the other way around. I suppose that when I say
"navigate on the Internet" I really mean the Web?
I just don't have any use for the distinction in my
everyday life. But I certainly don't oppose the
compilation of a technical wordlist which may indeed
require both terms.

>since
>context matters and the Internet can do things the web can't do
>efficiently, if at all.  But if you want to be certain we understand, you
>have to use the right words.

Yes, but we don't yet know what the right words are in
Lojban. It is not necessary to make exactly the same
distinctions that are made in English.

coo mie xorxes


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#1487
5:05 PM Fri 13 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com

la xod cusku di'e

>In lay speech, "skami" could probably get across both "internet" and "www"!
>le skami pu cusku fo mi .i xu do tcidu ko'a le skami

i mi tcidu so'ida le skami ca ro djedi
i ku'i mi na cpacu fi la internet fe so'eda
poi mi tcidu fi le skami

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1488
3:31 AM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  c.d.wrigh-

From: c.d.wrigh-@solipsys.compulink.co.uk


BestATN> Similarly, and completely off-topic,
BestATN> distance        m
BestATN> velocity:       m/s
BestATN> acceleration    m/(s^2)
BestATN> jerk            m/(s^3)
BestATN>
BestATN> So what would a change in jerk be? And so on?

I know the point is that after a while you have to give
up on names and simply use numbers, but rate of change
of jerk is known as "jounce".


cdw
--
" If you never go off at a tangent
  you will forever run in circles. "

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#1489
8:52 AM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la xod
 From:  TommyLee Whitlock

From: "TommyLee Whitlock" tommyle-@whitlock.org

> The WWW is a collection of HTML documents served over HTTP, often using
> TCP/IP.  The Internet is a huge, decentralized network using TCP/IP.

Right, and thank you Billy for your excellent clarification!

As an analogy, the WWW just a collection of billboards.  (Indeed, I have heard
the Web referred to as the billboards of the 90's ;))  The Internet is the
road that takes you by them so you can read them.  The billboards are only one
service on the road, because there are also rest stops, diners, service
stations, etc.

I am on the Internet because I have an internet connection and an email
address.  However, I do not think of myself as being on the Web because I do
not have a web site, although I do have a web browser (Netscape) and because
of my Internet connection, I can browse or surf the Web.  I would be using the
Web but I still don't consider myself on the Web.  I suppose I make the
distinction because I have been in the field for 6 years and remember when
there was no Web.

How necessary are the distinctions?  It depends on if you want someone to host
your email service for you or if you want someone to host a web site for you.
If you ask for a Web connection, you will get a discussion involving designing
your pages and how much disk space you will need.  If you ask for an Internet
connection, you will get a discussion on how fast (or what size) of a
connection you need and what you might be using it for and whether you want a
dial-up connnection or a dedicated connection.

However, in English, a slang term for an automobile is "wheels" though there
is much more to a car than just the wheels.

I think I've belabored my point to death, now.  Carry on, xod!

co'o mi'e tomis


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#1490
1:50 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei skami tanru pe  ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





Question: is a programmer is le platu, le zbasu, or le finti?





I think a software designer/architect is le finti or le platu, and an implementer is le zbasu.





On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:





#1491
1:52 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Where is "bi'u"  in the book?
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





I was browsing the ma'oste and I came across a cmavo "bi'u":






bi'u [ UI3a ] new information
       discursive: newly introduced information - previously introduced
information (cf. nindatni, saurdatni)#1492
2:00 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe la ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:





#1493
2:47 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe ma'a
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com



>From: xod xo-@bway.net
>
>Question: is a programmer is le platu, le zbasu, or le finti?
>
>I think a software designer/architect is le finti or le platu, and an
>implementer is le zbasu.

Sounds right. I suppose it depends on which aspect of
programming you want to emphasize.

>In this case, pagbu is probably sufficient. Do you think that pagbu can
>always represent "aspect"?

No, I think the best general purpose translation
of "aspect" is {jvinu}. Different aspects of
something are the different ways the same thing looks
like when seen from different angles or under a
different light.

>By the way, Multimedia = vrici selcusku not vrici velcusku, right?

velcusku is the medium. selcusku is the message.

> > Then {datni} sounds more like information, if you look
> > at its x2 and x3 places. Maybe something using {selci}
> > for data?
>
>One option is to assume that the writers of the gismu list didn't quite
>understand the subtle difference between data and information/facts,

A safe assumption, but it's a subtle difference which is not
really made outside of computer science. If you look at most
gismu you will see that each of them covers a pretty wide
range of meaning, they were not really supposed to make the
kind of specific fine distinction you're making here.

>and that datni really means data. Who is the "authority" on such issues?

The users of the language are the final authority. I doubt
users in general will worry too much about the difference
you want between data and information. In English the
distinction is not made outside of computer science either.
Since it was more or less artificially introduced in English,
you can do the same in Lojban through your lexicon, and see
if Lojnanist computer scientists adopt it.

>Or we could use data = datni selci

I think that is pretty clear.

>XML describes HTML; a specification for HTML can be written using XML. In
>any case, meta is not membership or subsetness, so it must get its own
>brivla.

Maybe {vasru} then.

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1494
3:46 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: bi'u
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

tu'a zo bi'u ka'e se sisku vi la xunre cukta pacimo'o xipaci (Try 13.13.)


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#1495
3:52 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: skami tanru
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

la xorxes. cusku zoi .gy. No, I think the best general purpose translation
of "aspect" is {jvinu}. gy. i .iecu'i .i .auru'e
pilno zo pevjvinu lo na'e kanla smuni


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#1496
10:55 PM Sat 14 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei skami tanru  pe la xod
 From:  Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" lojba-@lojban.org

At 11:55 AM 8/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: "TommyLee Whitlock" tommyle-@whitlock.org
>
> > The WWW is a collection of HTML documents served over HTTP, often using
> > TCP/IP.  The Internet is a huge, decentralized network using TCP/IP.
>
>Right, and thank you Billy for your excellent clarification!
>
>As an analogy, the WWW just a collection of billboards.  (Indeed, I have
>heard
>the Web referred to as the billboards of the 90's ;))  The Internet is the
>road that takes you by them so you can read them.  The billboards are only
>one
>service on the road, because there are also rest stops, diners, service
>stations, etc.

How about the Internet as a medium of communication/transmission xe benji
then while the WWW sites are the transmitters.  Alternatively, the Internet
is a dargu ciste, or a ciste dargu - a road system between points, some of
which are WWW sites (which then become some kind of se dargu or possibly te
ciste.

lojbab




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#1497
8:45 AM Sun 15 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: re:  skami tanru
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la maikl cusku di'e

>la xorxes. cusku zoi .gy. No, I think the best general purpose translation
>of "aspect" is {jvinu}. gy. i .iecu'i .i .auru'e
>pilno zo pevjvinu lo na'e kanla smuni

i ie cumki i ku'i mi zmanei le nu rivbi zo pe'a
i pe'i ko'a goi le nu pilno zo pe'a cu dukse
le ka toldra basna i ko'a judgau le te cusku
lo jvinu be le se cusku be'o poi la'a na vajni
le cusku i pe'i ko'a fanza ja dicra gi'enai
filgau le nu jimpe

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1498
8:10 PM Sun 15 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei skami tanru pe  ma'a
 From:  Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" lojba-@lojban.org

At 04:49 PM 8/14/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: xod xo-@bway.net
> > >Data: 5
> > >Information, data in context: "5 is the square root of 25"
> > >Knowledge, info in context: the skill of finding square roots
> >
> > Then {datni} sounds more like information, if you look
> > at its x2 and x3 places. Maybe something using {selci}
> > for data?
>
>One option is to assume that the writers of the gismu list didn't quite
>understand the subtle difference between data and information/facts, and
>that datni really means data. Who is the "authority" on such issues?

There is no authority, but I was the one who wrote the definition %^)

Please clarify what "5" which you call "data" IS.  I can see it either as
"namcu"/"kanli"
or as datni sinxa, or as "li mu" it can be described by "sumt", since all
sumti are in a sense "data without a bridi context".  I will confirm that
my understanding/intent for datni is rather more like what you call
"information".  "Knowledge" is Lojban somewhat orthogonal to "information",
being tied to epistemology.  And "facts", well Jorge and I have agreed to
disagree %^)



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#1499
2:38 AM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  test
 From:  minnur-
From: minnur-@aol.com

123

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#1500
8:31 AM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Where  is "bi'u" in the book?
 From:  John Cowan

From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org

xod wrote:

> bi'u [ UI3a ] new information

> I searched in the Book for mention of it, and I didn't find it. Did I miss
> it? Was it thrown in later, or since removed?

Chapter 13, Section 13 (miscellaneous discursives).

--
        John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan      cowa-@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
                        -- Coleridge / Politzer

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#1501
9:24 AM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  lisri xifei
 From:   michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com



ba so'i nu tumdesku je fagri kei le tcadu cu kunti kaismi
(After a series of earthquakes & fires the City is almost
deserted.) .i mi lo blacycolbla se porpi cu bevri ne'i le daski
(I carry a shard of blue glass in my pocket,) .i krici ledu'u
by. funca (believing it's lucky.) .i noda poi drata mi go'i (No
one else believes this.) ni'o le ckafybarja ca'o se catlu
mintu (The coffeehouse is still the same.) .i mi nerkla (I
go in.) .i glajolylenku manjolselgusni clujolkunti (Hot mixed
with cold, dark with light, full with empty there.) .i se xanri
ledu'u viska le pendo noi bacru lu .aunai pilno zo skami
(Think i see a friend, who says, "I don't like the word for
'computer".) .i zo morjyminji di'i basti li'u (I'll use
'remember-machine' instead.") .i mi spuda fi lu ji'a
aunai pilno zo djica .i nu'o se basti zo menxagji .a zo
ponsypei (I said, "Likewise, i don't like the word 'desire'.
I could use 'mind-hunger' or 'possess-think'.) .i ku'i xu ba
jimpe mi li'u (But will i be understood?") .i danfu lu ganai
lerixini'ure sidbo be leka vrici cu jitro gi lo bangu cu tsali
li'u ("A language is strong when the controlling idea is
variousness.") ni'o mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu
xruti vo'a le tcadu noi leni xabju be ke'a be'o poi noryru'i
ku'o kei zmadu leni xabju be ke'abe'o poi jmive (I worry
about my car trouble as i return to the City, where more
ghosts than living dwell.)


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#1502
1:27 PM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: re:  skami tanru
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:





#1503
1:42 PM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Sat, 14 Aug 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:





#1504
2:55 PM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: re: skami tanru
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


>From: xod xo-@bway.net
>
>le frica jinvi be ma'i le ni ciksi cu zasti .i do djica le za'i pilno ba'e
>zo pev ki'u ma

i mi ba'e na djica le nu pilno zo pev a zo pe'a
i pe'i lo zabna ke selpreja smuni na nitcu le nu
sinxa ije lo mabla ke selpreja smuni na se sidju
le nu sinxa

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1505
3:09 PM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei  skami tanru pe ma'a
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:





#1506
3:23 PM Mon 16 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lei skami tanru pe  ma'a
 From:  John Cowan

From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org

xod wrote:

> data and statistic(s) are "data", but information is not.

To which I retort that statistics are not data!  It is trivial
to say "I am not a statistic".  You are not a statistic; you
are a datum.

--
        John Cowan      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan      cowa-@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
                        -- Coleridge / Politzer

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#1507
5:21 PM Tue 17 Aug 99
 Subject:  Email  troubles
 From:  de-

From: de-@syslink.mcs.com



 > Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:24:57 PDT

 > From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
 >
 >
 > For some reason I became unsubscribed from lojban-list
 > about three weeks ago (I only now realized that's what
 > happened, I thought we were going through one of those
 > silent periods). Now I'm trying to resubscribe from my
 > usual address, but onelist won't let me do it. It says
 > mails sent to me bounce, but I'm receiving mails ok from
 > other places. Anyone knows what I can do about it?
 >
 > ki'e doi sidju
 > co'o mi'e xorxes

 I have a somewhat different problem with email from the
 lojban list.  It doesn't come with a return address from
  lojba-@onelist.com, instead it comes with a return
 address for the original author of the individual message.
 This makes it awkward to reply, as it's very easy to remember
 I'm talking to a list, and forget that that is not where
 <R>eply will send it.  I can work around it, but it is tedious
 and error prone, and easy to forget.

 I don't yet know why some lists do this to me; most don't.
 Well intentioned instructions to click on a different place
 would be pointless; they assume we are all using the same
 interface.  We are not.  There isn't any other place to click,
 the only automatically addressed Reply is <R> for <R>eply.

 I get my email on a traditional BBS operated by keyboard.
 I don't "click".  (I might do that in some offline game software,
 where it is easier on the wrist than repetitive typing of the same
 few keys; not in typing, where it is much harder on the wrist).

 We who have been online and open for the public since 1975
 have software standards that were well established and in
 worldwide use since long before Internet left the labs; but
 so far as I can tell some software authors neglected to fully
 consider those standards before joining us out here in the
 real world in the 1990s, and the patches to link software
 originally written for different networks sometimes makes too
 many assumptions about what extensions and additions are in
 universal use, and what hardware is available.  In some places
 I might even receive HTML (which comes out as mishmash) instead
 of US-ASCII.

 The list owners I've talked to seldom have a clue about how
 to adjust the software, they just use defaults set up by
 someone who never even heard of the list in question, and has
 vested interests in a particular OS.  I've read a lot of manuals
 in the last three dozen years, but I've never had one for listserv
 software.  It must be awfully hard to read, if no-one can make
 sense of it.  I knew (online) one guy who once (after a few weeks
 of trying) figured it out and fixed it, then unfortunately retired,
 a few months later, so that ended that.

 On one other list where I sometimes get the problem and
 sometimes not, I asked the individuals I was getting it from
 what there were using, and got three replies.  All were using
 Microsoft Outlook, and when they <R>eplied to the list it came
 with the correct (List) return address, but when they hand
 addressed a message, it came wrong, with the individual return
 address.


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#1508
8:31 PM Tue 17 Aug 99
 Subject:  nu citka lojbo
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





le ro bangu cu ckini le ro kulnu .i le ro kulnu cu ckini le ro cidja .i le su'u lojbo kei be vrusi cu mo




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#1509
10:44 AM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  coi .i stidi
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

.i coi mi'e mark.  .i ju'o do morji le mi cmene to sa'e su'o do morji .i
ju'o su'o do na go'i toi .i mi ca tadni la lojban. .ijesemaubo mi pu tadni
ri to .uinai mi na ka'e cusku lo'u mi pujesemauca tadni le'u toi .i .eiru'e
.ai mi ba skicu mi joi le mi lojbo citri .iku'i .ai mi ciska tavla fi da
voi cmavo ti'i mi

ni'o
pe'i zasti .ei lo cmavo belo selma'o bezo nai bei bei poi sinxa le ka to'e
mela'ezo nai .i xu di'u dukse pluja  .i mu'a va'o loinu pilno loi cmavo
bezo .ui kei sarcu .ia lenu basna leka ba'e na'e natfe le sampu cinmo .i zo
nai .enai loinu zo nai na zvati kei ka'e se basna .i na'e cafne fa tu'a
le valsi beti'i mi .iseki'ubo ri ke na'e sarcu ke'e tordu .i .ai mi pilno
zo ja'ai .e'u .i pe'i le'i lerfu be le valsi cu se pamoi me'o jy. .i pe'i
pei .i'e pei

no'i
mi krefu tadni .ai la lojban. .i mi pilno loi cmavo bezo .ui to lu loi
cmavo belo selma'o bezo .ui li'u cu dukse clani pe'i ge'e pe'i pei toi .i
.ia ra ja'a selpli je cinri .i mi punaijecanaijeba djuno fi le ca jbopli
liste .i cumki falenu levi xatra na'e mapti .uinai

co'omi'e mark.

(I may have shot myself in the foot here; I doubt I can get through as long
a response in Lojban as this letter I've written)


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#1510
1:57 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  "is"?
 From:  Danushile

From: Danushile danapee-@ibm.net

How would I say, "This is the future"? I'd guess ti <something> le
balvi. What's that something? It should mean, basically, "to be".



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#1511
2:00 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  "is"?
 From:  Danushile
From: Danushile bi-@evilors.net

How would I say, "This is the future"? I'd guess ti <something> le
balvi. What's that something? It should mean, basically, "to be".

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#1512
2:18 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: "is"?
 From:  William Tanksley
From: William Tanksley wtanksl-@dolphin.openprojects.net

On Thu, Aug 19, 1999 at 11:54:17PM +0300, Danushile wrote:
> How would I say, "This is the future"? I'd guess ti <something> le
> balvi. What's that something? It should mean, basically, "to be".

I don't know Lojban that well -- but "ti" doesn't work, because it's only
used to refer to things to which you can point.

I think you'll need to clarify your meaning in order to get it correctly
translated.  Do you mean that (for example) you were conversing with a
person who claimed that some technology wouldn't be developed until the
future, to which you replied that since the technology was already
developed, "this is the future?"

Or do you mean "this thing is futuristic," in which case "ti" might
plausibly work?

--
-William "Billy" Tanksley

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#1513
2:28 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: "is"?
 From:  Spigot
From: Spigot spigo-@neuron.net

nau balvi

does this mean something like:
right now, future is happening!

or more specifically,
right now, [something] is in the future [of something else]

?

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#1514
2:29 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: is?
 From:  Avital Oliver

From: Avital Oliver bi-@evilors.net

No, you don't understand. That was just a sample sentence. My problem is not
the 'this', but the 'is'.

Let's try, "This is the language".

"This is a language" would be "ti bangu".
"This is *the* language" should be something like "ti <something> le bangu",
since 'le bangu' is not a selbri.



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#1515
2:30 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  literal  translation for starters
 From:  bestat-
From: bestat-@aol.com

A word-for-word translation of "This is the future" could be "ti du le balvi"
which means something like "this thing is the same as the future (thing)"
How about just "ti balvi"?
Steven Lytle

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#1516
2:31 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: literal  translation for starters
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 bestat-@aol.com wrote:

> From: bestat-@aol.com
>
> A word-for-word translation of "This is the future" could be "ti du le balvi"
> which means something like "this thing is the same as the future (thing)"
> How about just "ti balvi"?


or in the case of time, zi balvi



-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1517
2:50 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: literal translation  for starters
 From:  Avital Oliver

From: Avital Oliver bi-@evilors.net

Finally! Thanks. "du" was what I was looking for.



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#1518
3:16 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: zi  balvi
 From:  bestat-

From: bestat-@aol.com


Can 'zi' be used like that?  I thought it was used as a suffix in tenses.

selma'o ZI (Chapter 10)
A tense indicating distance in time (a long, medium or short time ago or in
the future).


mi puzi citka I [past] [short distance] eat. I ate a little while ago.

Steven

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#1519
3:22 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Re:  zi balvi
 From:  Spigot

From: Spigot spigo-@neuron.net

> Can 'zi' be used like that?  I thought it was used as a suffix in tenses.

pg 220 in the book --

le nanmu zu batci le gerku
a long time from or before now, the man will bite or bit the dog.

and "'zi' by itself signals an event that happens at a time close
to the present, but without saying whether it is in the past or
the future.  a rough translation might be 'about now, but not
exactly now.'"



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#1520
3:32 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Re:  zi balvi
 From:  trevor hill

From: trevor hill thil-@quark.com

Actually, I would rather think that it really corresponds to our various
concepts of "now" in whatever language, rather than "about now"... because
now really never means exactly now to us humans..... right?? :)  when I say
"now" in english, i mean something defined by our human conceptions of the
current time... a span of time wide enough to encompass an event or state
that i'm talking about, and no more.

co'o
mi'e trevyr.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Spigot [SMTP:spigo-@neuron.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:23 PM
> To:   bestat-@aol.com
> Cc:   lojba-@onelist.com
> Subject:      Re: [lojban] Re:  zi balvi
>
> From: Spigot spigo-@neuron.net
>
> > Can 'zi' be used like that?  I thought it was used as a suffix in
> tenses.
>
> pg 220 in the book --
>
> le nanmu zu batci le gerku
> a long time from or before now, the man will bite or bit the dog.
>
> and "'zi' by itself signals an event that happens at a time close
> to the present, but without saying whether it is in the past or
> the future.  a rough translation might be 'about now, but not
> exactly now.'"
>
>
>
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#1521
5:27 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  literal translation for starters
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: bestat-@aol.com
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:27:35 EDT
>
>From: bestat-@aol.com
>
>A word-for-word translation of "This is the future" could be "ti du le balvi"
>which means something like "this thing is the same as the future (thing)"
>How about just "ti balvi"?

Keep in mind also that "balvi" doesn't mean "future"; it means more like
"in the future."  So you would use it in a sentence like

le nu mi viska do cu balvi le nu do klama lemi zdani

the event of my seeing you is-in-the-future of the event of your coming to
my house.

"This is the future" is a very colorful poetic and idiomatic phrase.  It's
trying to say that the current time is somehow futuristic, perhaps that
it's the future of the past.  Something like

le ca temci cu balvi le pu temci
(the now time is in the future of the past time)

which sounds tautological.  I think you're after a more racy meaning than
you can get without, well, saying it.  But then maybe I've been out of
Lojban circulation too long.

~mark

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#1522
9:13 PM Thu 19 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Re:   zi balvi
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Spigot wrote:

> From: Spigot spigo-@neuron.net
>
> > Can 'zi' be used like that?  I thought it was used as a suffix in tenses.
>
> pg 220 in the book --
>
> le nanmu zu batci le gerku
> a long time from or before now, the man will bite or bit the dog.
>
> and "'zi' by itself signals an event that happens at a time close
> to the present, but without saying whether it is in the past or
> the future.  a rough translation might be 'about now, but not
> exactly now.'"


zi doesn't exclude now. Remember that "nau" means here in space and time.
How else would we say "now in time, but the space is unspecified" except
by zi?

Note the use of zi here:

ko viska le mi zi cinse je ninmu pendo noi ke'a na'e ze'e ckini mi

See the of-me current girlfriend, who is not eternally mine. (She's
not Miss Right, she's Miss Right Now.)

ti is no good; it only refers to objects that can be pointed to.



Or maybe I am all wrong?


-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1523
1:22 PM Fri 20 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: is?
 From:  Richard Curnow

From: Richard Curnow richar-@rrbcurnow.freeserve.co.uk

On Fri, 20 Aug 1999, Avital Oliver wrote:

> From: Avital Oliver bi-@evilors.net
>
> No, you don't understand. That was just a sample sentence. My problem is not
> the 'this', but the 'is'.
>
> Let's try, "This is the language".
>
> "This is a language" would be "ti bangu".
> "This is *the* language" should be something like "ti <something> le bangu",
> since 'le bangu' is not a selbri.

How about

ti   me                  le bangu

This <is a referrant of> <the language>

There is an example in the reference grammar, something like "This is one
of the Three Kings", which is handled this way.  I forget which chapter.

--
Richard P. Curnow
Stevenage, England


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#1524
3:27 AM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: literal  translation for starters
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr



mar-@kli.org wrote:

> From: mar-@kli.org
>
> >From: bestat-@aol.com
> >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:27:35 EDT
> >
> >From: bestat-@aol.com
> >
> >A word-for-word translation of "This is the future" could be "ti du le balvi"
> >which means something like "this thing is the same as the future (thing)"
> >How about just "ti balvi"?
>
> Keep in mind also that "balvi" doesn't mean "future"; it means more like
> "in the future."  So you would use it in a sentence like
>
> le nu mi viska do cu balvi le nu do klama lemi zdani
>
> the event of my seeing you is-in-the-future of the event of your coming to
> my house.
>
> "This is the future" is a very colorful poetic and idiomatic phrase.  It's
> trying to say that the current time is somehow futuristic, perhaps that
> it's the future of the past.  Something like
>
> le ca temci cu balvi le pu temci
> (the now time is in the future of the past time)
>
> which sounds tautological.  I think you're after a more racy meaning than
> you can get without, well, saying it.  But then maybe I've been out of
> Lojban circulation too long.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  Perhaps

le ca temci cu balvi pe'a

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1525
3:29 AM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  derdesku
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

.uinaicai.i'u puziku barda derdesku tu'i le gugdrturkie .i su'o ciki'o
le
prenu cu morsi ja nalselstufa'i  .i so'i lei renvi na'e ponsi lo zdani
.a loi jinsa djacu .i e'o sarji le prenu pe le gugdrturkie

http://www.redcross.org
http://www.afsc.org
http://www.worldconcern.org

ta'o mi xabju la .ankaras noi na'e se xrani  .i mi .e le mi lanzu cu
kanro

co'o mi'e robin


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#1526
5:01 AM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  Fwd from  Auxlang
 From:  Robin Turner
From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr





Someone wrote the following on the Auxlang list:






 #1527
9:27 AM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  nu skicu la tces.
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com



.ai troci lenu skicu le selkei ja menynundamba peme'e la tces. fo le lojbo
(I've been trying to describe Chess in Lojban.) ni'o ca'e le xavomei cu se
selci gi'e ro selci cu se tcita lo pinta lijgri namcu ce'o lo sraji lijgri
namcu (Let the sixty-four squares be designated by a row number followed by
a column number.) .ite'i le dizlo zunle selci cu me li pa pi'e pa .ije le
gapru pritu selcu cu me li bi pi'e bi (The lower left corner is "1:1" & the
upper right is "8:8".) .i le fadni nuncfa cu mu'e benji fo le me li repi'emu
fi le me li mupi'emu (The common opening [Pawn to King's Four] would be
'"2:5" to "5:5"'.) .ica'e le bi'unai blabi cu se tcita le prityjei .a le
pritu (Let White be "the Right Army";) .ije lebi'unai xekri cu se tcita le
zuljei .a le zunle (Black, "the Left".) .ica'e lei se muvdu cu se tcita le
gunro ce'o le pezli ce'o le sakli ce'o le vlispe ce'o le ralju ce lei sonci
(Let the pieces in order be called "Roller", "Leaper", "Glider",
"Mighty-Spouse", "Chief"; & "the Soldiers".) ni'o te'i di'e cu selkei gau le
mibypre ce'e tu'i zoi .sy.
http://chessliveonthenet.com/chess/Best_Games/bestgames2.html .sy. (Here is
a game of mine:) itu'e pamai benji le sonci lemeli vopi'exa .ice'o benji le
sonci lemeli mupi'emu .iremai le sonci le sonci cu stulebna .ice'o benji le
sonci lemeli xapi'evo .icimai stulebna .ice'o le sakli le sonci cu stulebna
.ivomai benji le pezli lemeli cipi'exa .ice'o benji le sonci lemeli mupi'eze
.imumai meli vopi'evo .ice'o meli vopi'eze .ixamai benji le pezli lemeli
mupi'eze .ice'o meli mupi'exa .izemai meli vopi'emu .ice'o meli xapi'ebi
.ibimai meli mupi'emu .ice'o benji le sakli lemeli zepi'emu .isomai benji le
pezli lemeli cipi'ebi .ice'o le sonci le pezli cu stulebna .ipanomai benji
le vlispe lemeli mupi'ebi ja'e lenu ralju kajde .ice'o benji le ralju lemeli
bipi'exa .ipapamai benji le sakli lemeli vopi'eci .ice'o benji le gunro
lemeli zepi'ebi .iparemai benji le vlispe lemeli xapi'eze .ice'o benji le
gunro lemeli zepi'eze .ipacimai le sakli cu stulebna le sonci poi meli
xapi'ebi .ice'o le pezli cu stulebna le sakli .ipavomai le vlispe cu
stulebna le pezli .ice'o benji le sakli lemeli vopi'ere ja'e lenu ralju
kajde .ipamumai benji le sonci lemeli cipi'eci .ice'o benji le vlispe lemeli
mupi'eze .ipaxamai le vlispe cu stulebna le sonci poi meli cipi'ebi .ice'o
.ue benji le pezli lemeli xapi'eci .ipazemai le ralju cu se marbi .ice'o .ue
le pezli cu stulebna le sonci poi meli mupi'emu .ipabimai le sonci cu
stulebna .ice'o benji le sakli lemeli mupi'evo ja'e lenu ralju kajde
.ipanomai benji le ralju lemeli papi'ebi .ice'o .uesai meli vopi'exa
.irenomai benji le vlispe lemeli cipi'exa .ice'o benji le sakli lemeli
cipi'emu .irepamai benji le pezli lemeli cipi'epa .ice'o benji le sakli
lemeli mupi'exa .ireremai benji le gunro poi meli papi'epa ku'o lemeli
papi'emu .ice'o benji le ralju lemeli zepi'emu .irecimai le vlispe cu
stulebna le sonci poi meli zepi'ere .ice'o .uecai benji le sakli lemeli
xapi'ere .irevomai le vlispe cu stulebna le gunro .ice'o .uo.ui benji le
gunro lemeli zepi'ebi .iremumai .a'onai le gunro custulebna le sonci poi
meli vopi'exa .ice'o le vlispe cu stulebna le gunro  .irexamai meli cipi'eze
.ice'o le vlispe cu stulebna le sonci poi meli cipi'eze .irezemai benji le
vlispe lemeli repi'eze .ice'o le vlispe cu stulebna le gunro poi meli
papi'emu ja'e lenu ralju kajde .irebimai benji le vlispe lemeli papi'exa
.ice'o benji le sakli lemeli vopi'emu ja'e lenu ralju darxi tu'u


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#1528
9:28 AM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: nu  citka lojbo
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com


seljupnanba pe'a jbini fa la lojban. lo'i runbau le kampanci pe'a


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#1529
1:39 PM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: coi .i stidi
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


>..i coi mi'e mark.  .i ju'o do morji le mi cmene to
>sa'e su'o do morji .i ju'o su'o do na go'i toi

coi mark i mi cmima lei morji

>.i mi ca tadni la lojban. .ijesemaubo mi pu tadni ri to .uinai mi na ka'e
>cusku lo'u mi pujesemauca tadni le'u toi

i ku'i do ka'e cusku lu mi pu esemaubo caku tadni li'u
i na se sarcu le du'u do reroi cusku lu mi tadni li'u

>.i .eiru'e ..ai mi ba skicu mi joi le mi lojbo citri .iku'i .ai mi ciska
>tavla fi da voi cmavo ti'i mi

i cinri i le bangu cu zmadu ro le drata selcasnu
le ka xokau prenu cu pagbu le nu casnu ce'u i ku'i oi
ta'e bau le glico

>ni'o
>pe'i zasti .ei lo cmavo belo selma'o bezo nai bei bei poi sinxa le ka to'e
>mela'ezo nai .i xu di'u dukse pluja  .i mu'a va'o loinu pilno loi cmavo
>bezo .ui kei sarcu .ia lenu basna leka ba'e na'e natfe le sampu cinmo .i zo
>nai .enai loinu zo nai na zvati kei ka'e se basna .i na'e cafne fa tu'a le
>valsi beti'i mi .iseki'ubo ri ke na'e sarcu ke'e tordu .i .ai mi pilno
>zo ja'ai .e'u .i pe'i le'i lerfu be le valsi cu se pamoi me'o jy. .i pe'i
>pei .i'e pei

i i'eja'ai i pe'i zo ja'ai cu mapti valsi i zo ja'ai
joi zo ja'a zo nai joi zo na cu mintu le ka ckini simxu

>no'i
>mi krefu tadni .ai la lojban. .i mi pilno loi cmavo bezo .ui to lu loi
>cmavo belo selma'o bezo .ui li'u cu dukse clani pe'i ge'e pe'i pei toi

i drani i lu zo ui li'u tcaci cmene le selma'o
be zo ui

>.i
>..ia ra ja'a selpli je cinri .i mi punaijecanaijeba djuno fi le ca jbopli
>liste .i cumki falenu levi xatra na'e mapti .uinai

i ju'o le do xatra cu je'a mapti i ku'i le nu pilno
la lojban cu jdikygau le se klani be lei te spuda

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1530
4:41 PM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: skami lujvo
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr



michael helsem wrote:

> From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com
>
> open- selvisygau
> close- cancygau
> undo- fatpu'i
> field- seltisysa'u lerli'i/nacli'i
> window- pevyvro (note- this prefix for all figurative usages!)
> go to- basyviska
> header- gapseltcidu
> footer- nitseltcidu
> select all- rolcu'a
> tabs- le'i jaibu'u sisti

Wow, thanks!  I've been out of the country and had problems getting my email
- I'm about to dig into this string.

co'o mi'e robin.




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#1531
9:01 PM Sat 21 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lisri xifei
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

la maikl. cusku di'e


> ba so'i nu tumdesku je fagri kei le tcadu cu kunti kaismi
> (After a series of earthquakes & fires the City is almost
> deserted.) .i mi lo blacycolbla se porpi cu bevri ne'i le daski
> (I carry a shard of blue glass in my pocket,) .i krici ledu'u
> by. funca (believing it's lucky.)
>

Given the recent events here, that's positively scary!  Synchronicity or
what?  Did you know that Turks carry blue glass charms?

co'o mi'e robin.




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#1532
1:33 AM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Lojban analogies and  kennings
 From:  Ron Hale-Evans

From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org

Greetings from a semilurker...

A few people on the list know of my artgame Kennexions. If you don't,
you can learn more about it here:

   <http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/kennexions.html>

Lojban is a central part of the game, but I find my Lojban is
deficient for some of the things I want to do. That's why I'm
delurking; I'm hoping for help with some basic questions. But first
some background:

A central part of Kennexions is forming "kennings," which are an
ancient Norse poetic form based on analogies. Example:

   E1. psychology : mind :: biology : body

   E2. Psychology is to the mind as biology is to the body.

   E3. psychology = mind biology

E2 above is a restatement of E1 in ordinary English. E3 shows a
kenning ("mind biology") which is a poetic restatement of the word
"psychology."

You may have noticed that "mind biology" resembles a tanru. Because
kennings can easily be expressed by tanru (as can the Aztec poetic
form of "difrasismo," but that's another story), and because Lojban
is formal enough to be parsed by computer, I have chosen Lojban as
the basis for my "game language."

Right now, I can generate kennings automatically (with a Perl script)
from tabular data such as Aleister Crowley's book _777_, a rich
source for analogies in the domain of mythology. I can also manually
build geometrical kenning game structures in Fluidiom (formerly
Struck) -- see <http://www.beautifulcode.nl/>; it turns out that
kenning analogies map prettily onto tetrahedra. Eventually I would
like to have a Perl script that can parse Lojban, then spit out a
file to be rendered in Fluidiom.

As a small step, I've been trying to figure out how to write
analogies in Lojban. Assuming that "biology" is "ji'eske" and
"psychology" is "menske" (please correct my lujvo), then could the
above be rendered thus?

   L1. menske : menli :: ji'eske : xadni

   L2. .i ke menske tai menli ke'e tai ke ji'eske tai xadni ke'e

   L3. .i menske du menli ji'eske

I'm pretty sure L3 is ungrammatical; what's wrong with it? And how
about L2? (I know that L1 is completely ungrammatical; it's just
shorthand.)

Thanks in advance for everybody's help.

Ron H-E
--
Ron Hale-Evans: rwh-@apocalypse.org & http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/
      Center for Ludic Synergy & "Kennexions" Glass Bead Game
   & Hexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List & State-Specific Sciences List &
                         Positive Revolution FAQ

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#1533
8:07 AM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Elided selbri
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

coi rodoi

I've been having correspondence with pc for a while on the
question of whether, and to what extent, one can have a Lojban
sentence without a selbri.  The Book is quite explicit in denying
that you can simply miss out a selbri in the same way that you
miss out trailing sumti, for example (p. 158).  However, there
exist sentences, or sentence fragments, without selbri, e.g.

lo smuci .i lo forca  (p. 154)

The sentence in question is in the draft of my Lesson 7 (
http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lesson7.html ) which reads

caku la djiotis. goi ko'i mo'ine'i

Here I omit the selbri since {mo'ine'i} implies coming in, and
Jyoti's manner of coming is not important, but this contradicts
the ruling on p. 158.  I could add {co'e}, but this would be
almost as long as simply saying

caku la djiotis. goi ko'i klama le barja

and I wanted to get a directional tense in to reinforce the stuff
in the previous lesson.  What do people think?

BTW, I'm working on the lessons again - slowly - after a long
period of inactivity caused by holidays etc.  I actually got as
far as completing the broken Lesson 5, but this got lost again as
well (probably the result of writing stuff on two different
computers, one of which has two OS's, so I keep copying the wrong
file, though perhaps there's just a jinx on this lesson!).

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1534
9:52 AM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Lojban analogies and kennings
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:32:00 -0700
>From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org
>
>From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org
>
>A central part of Kennexions is forming "kennings," which are an
>ancient Norse poetic form based on analogies. Example:
>
>   E1. psychology : mind :: biology : body
>
>   E2. Psychology is to the mind as biology is to the body.
>
>   E3. psychology = mind biology
>
>E2 above is a restatement of E1 in ordinary English. E3 shows a
>kenning ("mind biology") which is a poetic restatement of the word
>"psychology."

So it's sort of making those SAT analogy questions, poetically?

>As a small step, I've been trying to figure out how to write
>analogies in Lojban. Assuming that "biology" is "ji'eske" and
>"psychology" is "menske" (please correct my lujvo), then could the
>above be rendered thus?
>
>   L1. menske : menli :: ji'eske : xadni

OK, this is a hybrid of Lojban with English/mathematical notation.  As
such, is cool.  I suppose one could do this strictly in Lojban mekso (which
is not my area of strength--and probably isn't anyone's area of
strength--so check me on this):

li mo'e loi menske pa'i mo'e loi menli du li mo'e loi ji'eske pa'i loi
xadni

the-number (sumti-to-operand) the-mass-of mind-science ratio-operator
(sumti-to-operand) the-mass-of mind equals the-number (sumti-to-operand)
the-mass-of life-science ratio-operator (sumti-to-operator) the-mass-of
body

Which does parse... but I don't know if it's right.  I went for {mo'e}
instead of {ni'e} because {ni'e} is related more to quantity stuff, and
that's not what we're after here.  I thought {loi} would be the right
gadri: minds and bodies and sciences are here viewed as masses.  Any
comments?

>   L2. .i ke menske tai menli ke'e tai ke ji'eske tai xadni ke'e
>
>   L3. .i menske du menli ji'eske
>
>I'm pretty sure L3 is ungrammatical; what's wrong with it? And how
>about L2? (I know that L1 is completely ungrammatical; it's just
>shorthand.)

You need to learn about gadri, articles.  Lojban selbri are predicates,
analogous to verbs; they aren't nouny.  In order to make them act like
*things*, arguments to predicates, you have to abstract them with an
article.  There are a bunch of 'em; I won't go into the details.  But
briefly, if {klama} means "x1 goes/comes to x2 from x3 via x4 using x5",
then {lo klama} is "one that comes, a comer [to somewhere, from somewhere,
via something, using something]" (the other places can be added in, but
must use special grammar to do so).  And {lo se klama} is "a destination
[gone to by someone from somewhere...]" and so on.  More commonly you'll
see {le} instead of {lo}; I used {loi} above:

lo:     something (or things) that really is/are ...
le:     something(s) which I, the speaker, consider to be ...
loi:    (some part of) the mass of things which are ...
lei:    a mass of things which I consider to be ...
lo'i:   the set of things which are ...
le'i:   the set of things which I consider to be ...

There are also {la}, {lai}, and {la'i} which work for things *named*
whatever.  The distinction between {lo} and {le} is subtle but important;
{lo} is veridical and non-specific.  {le} is non-veridical (I can refer to
something as "that woman over there" even if it isn't really a woman and
not be incorrect) and also can be/is more specific: it's the one(s) I'm
thinking of right at the moment (so it's a better translation for English
"the", while {lo} is closer to English "a/an", though the words are so
vague in English you can't count on that).

I don't really follow L2 at all; I'm pretty lost there.  But you could say
something like

lei menske du lei menly ji'eske

for L3.  Or maybe something with event abstractors?  Erk, I'm getting to
complicated.

Any help?

~mark

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#1535
9:57 AM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban  analogies and kennings
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


>From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org
>
>   L1. menske : menli :: ji'eske : xadni
>
>   L2. .i ke menske tai menli ke'e tai ke ji'eske tai xadni ke'e
>
>   L3. .i menske du menli ji'eske
>
>I'm pretty sure L3 is ungrammatical; what's wrong with it?

It is grammatical, but it doesn't say what you want.
It is a four component tanru. {du} is just another brivla,
like {menske}, {menli} and {ji'eske}. You might say:

      zo menske cu munsi'u lu menli ji'eske li'u
      {menske} has the same meaning as {menli ji'eske}.

>And how about L2?

L2 is ungrammatical. The cmavo of selmaho BAI, like {tai},
can be used to tag a sumti or a selbri, much like tenses.
They don't work as connectives by themselves. You might
say something like:

  zo menske peki'i zo menli zo ji'eske peki'i zo xadni panra
  {menske} in relationship to {menli} is parallel to
  {ji'eske} in relationship to {xadni}.

In my last mail in reponse to Mark I wanted to express
the relationship ja'ai:ja'a::nai:na, where ja'ai is the
new cmavo Mark was proposing. I wrote:

  zo ja'ai joi zo ja'a zo nai joi zo na mintu le ka ckini simxu
  "ja'ai"&"ja'a" are the same as "nai"&"na" in the relationship
  between them.

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1536
10:45 AM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban analogies  and kennings
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

Oops. I wrote:

li mo'e loi menske pa'i mo'e loi menli du li mo'e loi ji'eske pa'i loi xadni

as mekso for the proportion statement.  Aside from the fact that I'm not
sure we can get away with {pa'i} (are we really *dividing* here???), the
grammar's wrong.  {menli du} winds up a tanru.  I need at least

li mo'e loi menske pa'i mo'e loi menli ku du li mo'e loi ji'eske pa'i loi
xadni

with a {ku} to break it up ({lo'o} might be clearer, but a syllable more).

Hardly matters, but thought I should be thorough.

~mark

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#1537
11:41 AM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: coi .i stidi
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>Cc: jorg-@intermedia.com.ar
>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:39:13 PDT
>
>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>
>
>>..i coi mi'e mark.  .i ju'o do morji le mi cmene to
>>sa'e su'o do morji .i ju'o su'o do na go'i toi
>
>coi mark i mi cmima lei morji

.i mi ji'a cmima le'i morji be do

>>.i mi ca tadni la lojban. .ijesemaubo mi pu tadni ri to .uinai mi na ka'e
>>cusku lo'u mi pujesemauca tadni le'u toi
>
>i ku'i do ka'e cusku lu mi pu esemaubo caku tadni li'u
>i na se sarcu le du'u do reroi cusku lu mi tadni li'u

.i ju'ocu'i .ue ka'e .ianai cusku .i le skami genlanli na zanru ta .i mi
ji'a na'e jimpe .i mi djuno lenu na se sarcu tu'a le brivla .ije zo go'i
banzu

>>.i .eiru'e ..ai mi ba skicu mi joi le mi lojbo citri .iku'i .ai mi ciska
>>tavla fi da voi cmavo ti'i mi
>
>i cinri i le bangu cu zmadu ro le drata selcasnu
>le ka xokau prenu cu pagbu le nu casnu ce'u i ku'i oi
>ta'e bau le glico

mi krefu .ei ciksi zo'epe lemi cmavo bau la gliban. mu'i lenu le'i tcidu je
jimpe je ka'e frati cu barda

>>ni'o
>>pe'i zasti .ei lo cmavo belo selma'o bezo nai bei bei poi sinxa le ka to'e
>>mela'ezo nai .i xu di'u dukse pluja  .i mu'a va'o loinu pilno loi cmavo
>>bezo .ui kei sarcu .ia lenu basna leka ba'e na'e natfe le sampu cinmo .i zo
>>nai .enai loinu zo nai na zvati kei ka'e se basna .i na'e cafne fa tu'a le
>>valsi beti'i mi .iseki'ubo ri ke na'e sarcu ke'e tordu .i .ai mi pilno
>>zo ja'ai .e'u .i pe'i le'i lerfu be le valsi cu se pamoi me'o jy. .i pe'i
>>pei .i'e pei
>
>i i'eja'ai i pe'i zo ja'ai cu mapti valsi i zo ja'ai
>joi zo ja'a zo nai joi zo na cu mintu le ka ckini simxu

.i ki'e .i .a'o le valsi cu se pilno do'o

>>.i
>>..ia ra ja'a selpli je cinri .i mi punaijecanaijeba djuno fi le ca jbopli
>>liste .i cumki falenu levi xatra na'e mapti .uinai
>
>i ju'o le do xatra cu je'a mapti i ku'i le nu pilno
>la lojban cu jdikygau le se klani be lei te spuda

.i drani

So let me try in English, a little...

I'm Mark Shoulson, once-upon-a-time a heavy student of Lojban... but
nothing ever truly ends.  I was always watching Lojban, just maybe on
hiatus a bit.  One of these days maybe I'll write up my Lojbanic history
and introduce myself properly.  Maybe.  In the meantime, I've just finished
re-reading pretty much the entire Book, cover to cover... Mmmm, Lojban is
cool.  Even if I do remember some of the features when they were proposals
("Oh, zi'o... right... I remember when it was xa'a...")

On that note, I caught myself wishing for a cmavo, and I thus propose it,
using one of the experimental cmavo for it (and frankly keeping it that way
would be just fine: a perhaps unofficial but conventional use of an
experimental cmavo.  And in these post-baseline days, isn't that all one
can hope for in terms of language development?).  I'm hoping to try to
learn and make better use of the UI words (and COI as well, which are
similar).  I think they're really among the cleverer innovations of
Lojban.  But I realized that there's no positive counterpart to "nai", so
you can't emphasize, correct, or deliberately disambiguate a *positive*
sense of an emotion.  You can say ".uinai", and even ".ui ba'e nai", but
how do you emphasize *not* having the -nai?  Don't give me ".uisai"; I'm
not trying to intensify, just indicate.  Other Lojban negators have a
companion affirmer, why not nai, the most versatile of all?  So I propose
the experimental cmavo "ja'ai" for that purpose.  It starts with a j-, like
other affirmers, sounds like part of the same selma'o (or is it TOO
similar?)... It's a little longer, but it's not as common as "nai", so
that's okay.  And it would be handy in the other places "nai" goes.  You
can restate with better specificity...

mi .enai xu do cu klama
.i .eja'ai

Or something.

~mark


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#1538
12:10 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Elided selbri
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:03:55 +0300
>From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr
>Organization: Bilkent University
>
>From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr
>
>coi rodoi
>
>I've been having correspondence with pc for a while on the
>question of whether, and to what extent, one can have a Lojban
>sentence without a selbri.  The Book is quite explicit in denying
>that you can simply miss out a selbri in the same way that you
>miss out trailing sumti, for example (p. 158).  However, there
>exist sentences, or sentence fragments, without selbri, e.g.
>
>lo smuci .i lo forca  (p. 154)

Careful; bare sumti ARE valid utterances, but that doesn't make them
complete sentences.  They're great for answering fill-in-the-blank
questions:

do pilno ma? .i lo forca

or even

ma klama ma ma
.i mi le zarci le briju

You can say these things, but they're hardly full sentences.  They don't
state the relationship between the sumti; presumably someone can work that
out from context (like the questioning sentence).  Does that mean there's
an implied {co'e}?  Maybe.

>The sentence in question is in the draft of my Lesson 7 (
>http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lesson7.html ) which reads
>
>caku la djiotis. goi ko'i mo'ine'i
>
>Here I omit the selbri since {mo'ine'i} implies coming in, and
>Jyoti's manner of coming is not important, but this contradicts
>the ruling on p. 158.  I could add {co'e}, but this would be
>almost as long as simply saying

It implies motion-inwards, but not necessarily coming in.  Could be Jyoti
fell inward, or sneezed while moving inward, or anything.  mo'ine'i is a
tense, it doesn't say what was done, only where/how it was done.

Sound right?

~mark

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#1539
5:08 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  li'i morji fi loi pu  fasnu
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

Ahh, it HAS been too long since I jboplied my trade.  I was remembering my
ckafybarja story, which I'm still proud of, even though the Lojban was kind
of stilted.  I looked through my mail archives and found it, re-read
it... And guess what: it turns out it was ME that named the thing
ckafybarja (it had been ckafyzda before).  And there was even debate about
it.  I had forgotten that.  Woo, always fun.  Maybe I should write another
story; there are puns of that sort aplenty lurking about le gi'uste ku joi
le ma'oste.  Maybe I'll give my character a name and have him/her (I'm
leaning towards her) dispense these words of wisdom in several stories.  Or
not; school's going to start soon and then I'll be clean out of time.  I
hope I'll be able to keep up, even.  Well, someone take advantage of this
and start talking to me in Lojban!

~mark

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#1540
5:36 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban  analogies and kennings
 From:  Ron Hale-Evans

From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org

Thanks for your reply, Mark.

>From: mar-@kli.org
>
> >A central part of Kennexions is forming "kennings," which are an
> >ancient Norse poetic form based on analogies. Example:
> >
> >   E1. psychology : mind :: biology : body
> >
> >   E2. Psychology is to the mind as biology is to the body.
> >
> >   E3. psychology = mind biology
> >
> >E2 above is a restatement of E1 in ordinary English. E3 shows a
> >kenning ("mind biology") which is a poetic restatement of the word
> >"psychology."
>
>So it's sort of making those SAT analogy questions, poetically?

You might say that. Actually, the kenning is prior to the analogy. It
was only later that people realised that implicit in kennings were
four terms, and therefore four kennings. For example, assume that
"mind biology" for "psychology" _was_ a classical Norse kenning. Now
people realise that "body psychology" for "biology" is also implicit.

> >   L1. menske : menli :: ji'eske : xadni
>
>OK, this is a hybrid of Lojban with English/mathematical notation.  As
>such, is cool.

Yeah, I know it's not grammatical (see remarks below in original).
But thanks for the help with mekso. Very interesting.

See also my post to Jorge.

--Ron

--
Ron Hale-Evans: rwh-@apocalypse.org & http://www.apocalypse.org/~rwhe/
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#1541
5:36 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban  analogies and kennings; also "pe'a/po'
 From:  Ron Hale-Evans

From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org

Thanks for your response, Jorge!

>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>
>>From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org
>>
>> L1. menske : menli :: ji'eske : xadni
>>
>> L2. .i ke menske tai menli ke'e tai ke ji'eske tai xadni ke'e
>>
>> L3. .i menske du menli ji'eske

<snip>

>L2 is ungrammatical. The cmavo of selmaho BAI, like {tai},
>can be used to tag a sumti or a selbri, much like tenses.
>They don't work as connectives by themselves. You might
>say something like:
>
> zo menske peki'i zo menli zo ji'eske peki'i zo xadni panra
> {menske} in relationship to {menli} is parallel to
> {ji'eske} in relationship to {xadni}.

Thanks. I don't want to talk about the words, though; I want to talk
about abstract things. How about this?

   lo menske peki'i lo menli cu panra lo ji'eske peki'i lo xadni

What is "peki'i", BTW? Some kind of compound cmavo? I couldn't find
"peki'i", "pek", "pe" or "ki'i" in any wordlist or the Red Book.

>>I'm pretty sure L3 is ungrammatical; what's wrong with it?
>
>It is grammatical, but it doesn't say what you want.
>It is a four component tanru. {du} is just another brivla,
>like {menske}, {menli} and {ji'eske}. You might say:
>
>     zo menske cu munsi'u lu menli ji'eske li'u
>     {menske} has the same meaning as {menli ji'eske}.

What about this?

   lo menske cu du lo menli ji'eske pe'a

I'm using "pe'a" according to the Red Book. The _online_ Refgram,
whose usage I prefer in this instance, would seem to want me to say:

   lo menske cu du lo pe'a menli ji'eske po'a

If anybody's listening (Lojbab? John C.?), I think the latter grammar
is more generally useful, since it lets you mark whole tanru or even
sentences as figurative, whereas the Red Book _seems_ to imply that
you can only mark the previous word.

If "pe'a" and "po'a" conflict with "lo", which is veridical, how about this:

   lo menske cu du pe'a lo menli ji'eske po'a

Again, something you can't do with "pe'a" alone.

--Ron

--
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      Center for Ludic Synergy & "Kennexions" Glass Bead Game
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#1542
6:21 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: coi  .i stidi
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: 22 Aug 1999 04:00:02 -0000
>From: mar-@kli.org
>
>("Oh, zi'o... right... I remember when it was xa'a...")

And when {zi'o} was a logical connective, part of the series {zi'a, zi'e,
zi'o, zi'u} for relative phrases.  Yow.

~mark

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#1543
6:47 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban analogies  and kennings; also "pe'a/po'
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:34:52 -0700
>From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org
>
>Thanks for your response, Jorge!
>
>>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>>
>>>From: Ron Hale-Evans rwh-@apocalypse.org
>>>
>>> L1. menske : menli :: ji'eske : xadni
>>>
>>> L2. .i ke menske tai menli ke'e tai ke ji'eske tai xadni ke'e
>>>
>>> L3. .i menske du menli ji'eske
>
><snip>
>
>>L2 is ungrammatical. The cmavo of selmaho BAI, like {tai},
>>can be used to tag a sumti or a selbri, much like tenses.
>>They don't work as connectives by themselves. You might
>>say something like:
>>
>> zo menske peki'i zo menli zo ji'eske peki'i zo xadni panra
>> {menske} in relationship to {menli} is parallel to
>> {ji'eske} in relationship to {xadni}.
>
>Thanks. I don't want to talk about the words, though; I want to talk
>about abstract things. How about this?
>
>   lo menske peki'i lo menli cu panra lo ji'eske peki'i lo xadni
>
>What is "peki'i", BTW? Some kind of compound cmavo? I couldn't find
>"peki'i", "pek", "pe" or "ki'i" in any wordlist or the Red Book.

Maybe neki'i would be better, actually.

"peki'i" is a compound cmavo: pe ki'i.  ki'i is a BAI word, "as a relation
of...", modeled after ckini.  pe is restrictive association.  But we're not
talking about psychology which is associate with minds as opposed to other
kinds of psychology; non-restrictive (ne) would make more sense, right?

~mark

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#1544
11:20 PM Sun 22 Aug 99
 Subject:  di'a
 From:  Arnt Richard Johansen

From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" enkefalo-@hotmail.com

.ui mi di'a co'e

co'o mi'e tsali


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#1545
12:47 AM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban analogies  and kennings
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:57:50 PDT
>
>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>
>In my last mail in reponse to Mark I wanted to express
>the relationship ja'ai:ja'a::nai:na, where ja'ai is the
>new cmavo Mark was proposing. I wrote:
>
>  zo ja'ai joi zo ja'a zo nai joi zo na mintu le ka ckini simxu
>  "ja'ai"&"ja'a" are the same as "nai"&"na" in the relationship
>  between them.
>

I had read an extra {joi} someplace and thought you'd put them all into one
biiig mass, but I understood it anyway.  Actually, I'd hoped you would use
something clever with {ce'o} and {pi'u} and/or a termset or something.  I
thought of suggesting it, but realized I couldn't pull it off right either
(I need to read up on termsets again).

~mark

Hmm, is there still an IRC #lojban?

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#1546
1:03 AM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Elided selbri
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la robin cusku di'e

>The Book is quite explicit in denying
>that you can simply miss out a selbri in the same way that you
>miss out trailing sumti, for example (p. 158).

But the formal grammar will accept them, and the formal
grammar has precedence over the rest of the book. Sentences
consisting of sumti only are grammatical, whether they are
called sentences or fragments doesn't really change anything.
And more important, if you read some of the Lojban that people
write you will notice that such sentences are actually being
used. They should mean the same as if the selbri was {co'e},
i.e. you can only tell from the context.

>caku la djiotis. goi ko'i mo'ine'i
>
>Here I omit the selbri since {mo'ine'i} implies coming in, and
>Jyoti's manner of coming is not important, but this contradicts
>the ruling on p. 158.

The sentence is grammatical. The meaning seems to me
very clear. What is the problem?

The comment on p. 158 makes sense when referring to
sub-clauses. You could not say, for example,
*{mi djuno le du'u caku la djiotis mo'ine'i}. In those
cases the selbri can't be left out, unfortunately.

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1547
8:32 AM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban analogies and  kennings
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la ~mark cusku die

>I had read an extra {joi} someplace and thought you'd put them all into one
>biiig mass, but I understood it anyway.  Actually, I'd hoped you would use
>something clever with {ce'o} and {pi'u}
>and/or a termset or something.

I try to avoid using those (and mekso even more). I dont
consider them part of le xamgu bangu, but thats just me.
I would like to first have a clear expression, even if
a bit long, and then see how it can be condensed. What is
it that we want to say? Is it something like:

le te ckini be abu bei by cu mintu le te ckini be cy bei dy
a:b::c:d

coo mie xorxes


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#1548
9:01 AM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: coi  .i stidi
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la mark cusku die

> >i ku'i do ka'e cusku lu mi pu esemaubo caku tadni li'u
> >i na se sarcu le du'u do reroi cusku lu mi tadni li'u
>
>.i ju'ocu'i .ue ka'e .ianai cusku .i le skami genlanli na zanru ta

i drani i mi pu se cfipu

> >i cinri i le bangu cu zmadu ro le drata selcasnu
> >le ka xokau prenu cu pagbu le nu casnu ce'u i ku'i oi
> >ta'e bau le glico
>
>mi krefu .ei ciksi zo'epe lemi cmavo bau la gliban. mu'i lenu le'i tcidu je
>jimpe je ka'e frati cu barda

i pei lei bangu selstidi ja seljinvi pebau la lojban
cu zmadu lei drata le ka vajni iju lo soumei poo
caa tcidu

> >i i'eja'ai i pe'i zo ja'ai cu mapti valsi i zo ja'ai
> >joi zo ja'a zo nai joi zo na cu mintu le ka ckini simxu
>
>.i ki'e .i .a'o le valsi cu se pilno do'o

i mi pu caa pilno i cumki fa le nu mi ba goi

coo mie xorxes



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#1549
10:30 AM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Mark's  proposed "ja'ai" already exists
 From:  John Cowan

From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org

There is already a positive analogue to "nai", and that is "jo'a".
It can be attached to attitudes to make them explicitly positive,
or used as a general metalinguistic affirmer: this is so, despite
appearances otherwise.

Grammatically "jo'a" belongs to UI rather than NAI, but that simply
means it cannot be used in place of the non-attitudinal uses of "nai",
such as with connectives, tenses, etc.  (In practice if you want
to say ".ejo'a" it is grammatical 99% of the time.)

--
John Cowan                                   cowa-@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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#1550
8:15 PM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Mark's  proposed "ja'ai" already exists
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org
>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:59:59 -0400 (EDT)
>
>From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org
>
>There is already a positive analogue to "nai", and that is "jo'a".
>It can be attached to attitudes to make them explicitly positive,
>or used as a general metalinguistic affirmer: this is so, despite
>appearances otherwise.
>
>Grammatically "jo'a" belongs to UI rather than NAI, but that simply
>means it cannot be used in place of the non-attitudinal uses of "nai",
>such as with connectives, tenses, etc.  (In practice if you want
>to say ".ejo'a" it is grammatical 99% of the time.)

Hrmph.  I'm not sure I'm satisfied.  If ja'o means the same as my proposed
ja'ai, then na'i must be the same as nai.

~mark

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#1551
8:34 PM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Mark's  proposed "ja'ai" already exists
 From:  John Cowan

From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org

Blunderingly I wrote:

> >There is already a positive analogue to "nai", and that is "jo'a".
> >It can be attached to attitudes to make them explicitly positive,
> >or used as a general metalinguistic affirmer: this is so, despite
> >appearances otherwise.
> >
> >Grammatically "jo'a" belongs to UI rather than NAI, but that simply
> >means it cannot be used in place of the non-attitudinal uses of "nai",
> >such as with connectives, tenses, etc.  (In practice if you want
> >to say ".ejo'a" it is grammatical 99% of the time.)

Mark Shoulson hrmphed:

> Hrmph.  I'm not sure I'm satisfied.  If ja'o means the same as my proposed
> ja'ai, then na'i must be the same as nai.

Oops.  jo'a is the counterpart of na'i indeed.  There is no counterpart
of nai; jo'a = na'inai.

--
John Cowan                                   cowa-@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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#1552
8:51 PM Mon 23 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Mark's proposed  "ja'ai" already exists
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:03:42 -0400 (EDT)
>
>From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org
>
>Blunderingly I wrote:
>
>> >There is already a positive analogue to "nai", and that is "jo'a".
>> >It can be attached to attitudes to make them explicitly positive,
>> >or used as a general metalinguistic affirmer: this is so, despite
>> >appearances otherwise.
>> >
>> >Grammatically "jo'a" belongs to UI rather than NAI, but that simply
>> >means it cannot be used in place of the non-attitudinal uses of "nai",
>> >such as with connectives, tenses, etc.  (In practice if you want
>> >to say ".ejo'a" it is grammatical 99% of the time.)
>
>Mark Shoulson hrmphed:
>
>> Hrmph.  I'm not sure I'm satisfied.  If ja'o means the same as my proposed
>> ja'ai, then na'i must be the same as nai.
>
>Oops.  jo'a is the counterpart of na'i indeed.  There is no counterpart
>of nai; jo'a = na'inai.

'Zactly.  That's what {ja'ai} is: another cmavo of selma'o NAI, the
counterpart to {nai}.  Just as {ja'a} is to {na}, {ja'ai} is to {nai}.

~mark

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#1553
8:39 AM Tue 24 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Lojban  analogies and kennings; also "pe'a/po'
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

la ron cusku di'e

> What about this?
>
>    lo menske cu du lo menli ji'eske pe'a
>
> I'm using "pe'a" according to the Red Book. The _online_ Refgram,
> whose usage I prefer in this instance, would seem to want me to say:
>
>    lo menske cu du lo pe'a menli ji'eske po'a
>
> If anybody's listening (Lojbab? John C.?), I think the latter grammar
> is more generally useful, since it lets you mark whole tanru or even
> sentences as figurative, whereas the Red Book _seems_ to imply that
> you can only mark the previous word.

{pe'a} is still part of selma'o UI, so putting it at the begining of a sentence
marks the whole sentence as figurative.  As for tanru, the Book leaves it open
as to whether the {pe'a} applies only to the final brivla or to the whole tanru
(p. 312).  So for example

mi viska le xekri mlatu pe'a

could mean "I see the thing which is black and, figuratively speaking, a cat,"
or "I see the black cat, so to speak."  The latter could be indicated more
specifically by

mi viska fu'e pe'a xekri mlatu fu'o

Hope this is useful and I haven't been stating the obvious.

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1554
8:47 AM Tue 24 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: di'a
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

la tsali cusku di'e

> .ui mi di'a co'e

.u'i .i to'unaicaidai

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1555
8:54 AM Tue 24 Aug 99
 Subject:  le remoi  derdesku nuzba
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

carvi (Rain)  .i seldaspo zdani (Destroyed houses)  .i so'u lo
beidru se beimu'o (A few tents are delivered) .i le prenu cu
zbasu lo slasi drudi (The people make roofs from plastic)  .i
terpa lonu bilma mu'i lenu ga so'i lei morsi xadni na'e mo'u se
daryri'a gi ro le fesrinci cu spofu  (There is fear of disease
because many of the dead bodies have not been removed and/or all
the sewers are broken)  .i ku'i le gugde kanro turni goi ko'a cu
jinvi lenu no le prenu ba bilma  (But the Health Minister is of
the opinion that no one will fall ill)  .i ko'a na'e djica loi
fange mikce (He doesn't want foreign doctors) .i ji'a ti'e ko'a
na'e djica lenu loi xespre cu dunda loi ciblu (In addition, I
hear he doesn't want Greeks to donate blood)  .oicai.uinai.u'i (I
am outraged, saddened and amused)  zo'o ru'a ko'a krici le xelso
ciblu ka'e rinka lenu lei prenu pe le gugdrturkie cu xriso binxo
(Perhaps he thinks Greek blood can turn the people of Turkey into
Christians!)  .i .ui ku'i loi xespre puca sarji le vi prenu noi
mutce ckire (But I am happy to say that the Greeks have helped
and do help the people here, who are very grateful)  .i pi'o lo
veltivni ku mi zgana lenu lo xespre lo prenrturkie cu cinba soi
vo'a   (On television I see Greeks and Turks kiss each other)  .i
leka bradi se mo'isti mu'i leka badri (Enmity is forgotten
through sadness)

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1556
9:14 AM Tue 24 Aug 99
 Subject:  years as dates
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

coi rodoi

The convention for {detri} is that if there is only one number in
x1, it is the day of the month (at least according to the draft
textbook - others have suggested reversing the dating order).
However, how can we say when, for example, Columbus discovered
the New World, without giving the day as well as the year, or
putting in a load of {pi'e}s?

lenu la kolumbus. facki le cnino gugde se detri li pavosore

would mean that he discovered America on the 1492nd day, rather
than in the year 1492.  Would something like {la pavosorenanc.}
clear this up?

{ta'o} I left {le cnino gugde} deliberately vague to avoid
confusion/argument about what he really did discover!

Another question - I've always used the question word {ma} with
{detri} and {tcika}, since although the normal x1 is a number
(implying {xo} as the question), the place seems also capable of
taking cmene, as in

la pacac. cu tcika ti

or

la padjed. cu detri ti

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1557
2:16 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  unlurking and lujvo
 From:  pycy-
From: pycy-@aol.com

I decided to unlurk to get and give some info, but the recent stuff in the
archive prompted a brief greeting.
The kennings, which *look like* left-brain simulations of right-brain
functions, did serve to remind me to recall to us left-brainers that the
ideal in lujvo has always been not definitions but telling metaphors.
Comments back in the exchanges about computer terminology suggested that this
ideal had been lost (yet again  -- though the previous deviations did not
generally survive).
pc

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#1558
2:16 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  MT
 From:  pycy-
From: pycy-@aol.com

For afficionados of machine translation, I notice that ProtoThinker, by my
neighbor John Barker (cd-rom from Wadsworth Publishing) contains nice little
English-to-logic and logic-to-English programs.  It might be interesting to
mount a Lojban lexer/delexer onto that and see what resulted.  There is a
ProtoThinker website (whose URL I cannot find at the moment) that gives aid
and comfort to this kind of investigation and probably has access to a number
of folks who would find Lojban fascinating.
pc

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#1559
5:47 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: years as dates
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

la xorxes. cusku di'e

>
> la robin cusku die
>
> >coi rodoi
>
> i diu na gendra i pei do skudji lu coi rodo liu

{zo'o} it's a new sentence type, the double vocative.

> >lenu la kolumbus. facki le cnino gugde se detri li pavosore
>
> [cu missing]
>

Actually the original example in the lesson has a {kei} after {gugde}, which
I assume does the same trick. It was

lenu la kolumbus. facki lo cnino gugde kei se detri ma


>
> >would mean that he discovered America on the 1492nd day, rather
> >than in the year 1492.  Would something like {la pavosorenanc.}
> >clear this up?
>
> I think that would be understood. Maybe {facki} will
> end up with that meaning too, since it is almost
> always used for finding some object, place or person
> rather than for finding out that some fact is true
> about something.

{.ia} but I may just be indulging in sumti-raising again!

>
> >{ta'o} I left {le cnino gugde} deliberately vague to avoid
> >confusion/argument about what he really did discover!
>
> {le cnino munje} would work too.
>

That was my first choice, but I thought it might be a bit malglico.
Coloumbus doscovered what was (to him at least) a new country, but "The New
World" for the Americas seems a bit culture-specific.

>
> >Another question - I've always used the question word {ma} with
> >{detri} and {tcika}, since although the normal x1 is a number
> >(implying {xo} as the question), the place seems also capable of
> >taking cmene,
>
> But {ma} asks for any sumti, and can be used to ask for
> sumti with {li} as well. You dont need that justification
> for using {ma}. To use {xo} youd have to say {li xo}
> instead of plain {ma}.
>

This confirms what I had thought.  I had considered introducing {xo} in this
lesson but dropped the idea, as {xo} doesn't seem to be that useful outside
complicated mekso stuff.

>
> >as in
> >
> >la pacac. cu tcika ti
> >
> >or
> >
> >la padjed. cu detri ti
>
> {la padjed} was Monday, Sunday, or the first of the month?

The convention is Sunday, which I personally find awkward, as I always think
of Monday as the first day of the week.

co'o mi'e robin.


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#1560
6:06 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: pycy-@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:18:57 EDT
>
>From: pycy-@aol.com
>
>In logic, the article-like objects function like quantifiers, with variables.
> The stock form is "the x such that Fx."  The corresponding Lojban would be
>"le da da broda" then (maybe with a separator between the das).  But Lojban,
>of course, does not exactly replicate this version but drops the das
>altogether, "le broda."  With more complicated predicates, the variable
>becomes more important, "the x such that Fyx" can be handled in Lojban with
>conversion, "le se broda y," say.  But what about genuine and functioning
>complexity?  Though there are several intervening levels of complexity, the
>one I am now working with and can not make any headway on is
>"the x such that it is not possible that someone conceive that there is a y
>greater than x"  conversions and collapsed or permuted tanru cannot be used
>here as the scopes of the various operators (possibility, conception,
>quantifiers) are crucial in the argument this leads up to.  Suggestions (and,
>best of all, citations from the Red Book on how to do it legally) would be
>most welcome.

I hope I'm answering the right question...

The thing to remember about all this is that {lo broda} is the same,
semantically, as {da poi [ke'a] broda}, with the exception that the latter
also asserts the existence of such a thing, while the former doesn't.  ({le
broda} is correspondingly {da voi broda}).  Similarly, "the x such that
Fyx" is {da poi de se broda da[/ke'a]} in {da poi} syntax, and {lo se broda
be de} as a gadrified sumti (note the necessity for the link with {be};
also note I'm glossing over the implicit existential quantifier on {de} as
well).

Given this parity between {lo broda} and {da poi broda}, you can easily see
how to create something of any complexity:

da poi le nu rode rodi zo'u de krici lenu di zmadu da kei kei cu na cumki

X which-is-such-that: (the-event-that: for-all Y, for-all Z: Y believes
(the-event-that: Z exceeds X ) ) is not possible

(my grouping above may not show off the Lojban grouping perfectly, but I
think it's right in Lojban).  The only thing less than gadri-like about
this phrasing is the fact that without some sort of quantification it
implicitly quantifies this {da} with existence: at least one of these
things is claimed to exist.  But you can probably fix that too, with
appropriate quantification.

pc, I hope I didn't miss something obvious; I know of your expertise in
formal logic.

~mark

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#1561
6:15 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: years as dates
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:46:25 +0300
>From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr
>Organization: Bilkent University
>
>From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr
>
>la xorxes. cusku di'e
>
>>
>> la robin cusku die

Jorge, can you convince your system to use ASCII apostrophes and not
spacing acute accents?  I suppose it's not a big deal; I can display them
right when I try.

>> >lenu la kolumbus. facki le cnino gugde se detri li pavosore
>>
>> [cu missing]
>>
>
>Actually the original example in the lesson has a {kei} after {gugde}, which
>I assume does the same trick. It was
>
>lenu la kolumbus. facki lo cnino gugde kei se detri ma

Not good enough.  Without the {kei} you had {cnino gugde se detri}
collapsing into a tanru; with the {kei} you have {nu... kei detri} as a
tanru.  Remember, {nu ... kei} is grammatically a selbri, and as such can
participate in tanru formation.  A {cu} before the {detri} would fix that,
since {cu} can't happen inside a tanru.

>> >{ta'o} I left {le cnino gugde} deliberately vague to avoid
>> >confusion/argument about what he really did discover!
>>
>> {le cnino munje} would work too.
>>
>
>That was my first choice, but I thought it might be a bit malglico.
>Coloumbus doscovered what was (to him at least) a new country, but "The New
>World" for the Americas seems a bit culture-specific.

Likely is.  You could also try {le cnino .iadai gugde}, using empathetic UI
(i.e. there's belief, ascribed to someone else, not the
speaker... hopefully the reader will understand it's Columbus) or {la cnino
munje} and rely on the reader's knowledge of the idiom, taking it as a
name.  Or even {le cnino sei la kolumbus. krici se'u gugde} to make the
empathetic sense more specified.  (That's how I tend to think of {sei}: it
lets you make a bridi (with some structure restrictions) into a UI).

>This confirms what I had thought.  I had considered introducing {xo} in this
>lesson but dropped the idea, as {xo} doesn't seem to be that useful outside
>complicated mekso stuff.

Sure it is.  How many books do you have?  {do ponse xu cukta}

>The convention is Sunday, which I personally find awkward, as I always think
>of Monday as the first day of the week.

As a Hebrew-speaker, I find Sunday=1 easier.  Maybe we should set it to
Wednesday or Tuesday and be equally obnoxious to everyone.

~mark

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#1562
6:47 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: years  as dates
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la robin cusku die

>Actually the original example in the lesson has a {kei} after {gugde},
>which I assume does the same trick. It was
>
>lenu la kolumbus. facki lo cnino gugde kei se detri ma

It still doesnt work. You get the sumti {le nu...kei se
detri}. The sentence is grammatical, but it doesnt have
a selbri. You would need {ku} after {kei} to close the
sumti. When the choice is between {cu} and anything else,
{cu} is the way to go.

> > >{ta'o} I left {le cnino gugde} deliberately vague to avoid
> > >confusion/argument about what he really did discover!
> >
> > {le cnino munje} would work too.
>
>That was my first choice, but I thought it might be a bit malglico.
>Coloumbus doscovered what was (to him at least) a new country, but "The New
>World" for the Americas seems a bit culture-specific.

He thought he had discovered a new route to an old place.
Maybe {le cnino dargu}?

>I had considered introducing {xo} in this
>lesson but dropped the idea, as {xo} doesn't seem to be that useful outside
>complicated mekso stuff.

I almost never use mekso stuff, but I find {xo} useful
for other things. Not for "what number" questions, but
for "how many/how much" questions. Things like:
{xo prenu cu zvati le kumfa}.

coo mie xorxes


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#1563
8:35 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la pycyn cusku die

>Though there are several intervening levels of complexity, the
>one I am now working with and can not make any headway on is
>"the x such that it is not possible that someone conceive that there is a y
>greater than x"

As you say, the problem is that *{le da poi ...} is not
grammatical in Lojban. One way around it is to use {broda}
instead of {da} for the dummy variable:

le broda poi na cumki fa le nu da pensi le nu de zmadu kea
"The thingy such that it is not possible that there is
someone that thinks that there is something greater than IT."

This gives you the full properties of {le} and also lets
you use the restrictive clauses with the quantification
scopes at the right level.

coo mie xorxes


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#1564
11:06 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" lojba-@lojban.org

At 05:18 AM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: pycy-@aol.com
>In logic, the article-like objects function like quantifiers, with variables.
>  The stock form is "the x such that Fx."

da poi da broda
or
da voi da broda
for the non-veridical "the"
you can use ke'a in place of da after the relative clause operator
You can also insert a prenex with scope only over the relative clause for
handling the next problem:

>   The corresponding Lojban would be
>"le da da broda" then (maybe with a separator between the das).  But Lojban,
>of course, does not exactly replicate this version but drops the das
>altogether, "le broda."  With more complicated predicates, the variable
>becomes more important, "the x such that Fyx" can be handled in Lojban with
>conversion, "le se broda y," say.

da poi de broda da
where you could localize de or globalize it:
da de zo'u da poi de broda da
or
da zo'u da poi de zo'u de broda da

>   But what about genuine and functioning
>complexity?  Though there are several intervening levels of complexity, the
>one I am now working with and can not make any headway on is
>"the x such that it is not possible that someone conceive that there is a y
>greater than x"  conversions and collapsed or permuted tanru cannot be used
>here as the scopes of the various operators (possibility, conception,
>quantifiers) are crucial in the argument this leads up to.  Suggestions (and,
>best of all, citations from the Red Book on how to do it legally) would be
>most welcome.

da poi node zo'u de zmadu da
x such that for no y: y is greater than x

We should have sufficient flexibility in scope specification at the
different levels of prenex, and with nearly the full range of sentence
structure possible within a relative clause, all of the quantifiers and
operators should be usable with no particular trouble.

Clearly the chapter on relative clauses - the whole chapter, is relevant to
the problem.

lojbab



>pc
>
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----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojba-@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


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#1565
11:41 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  mela senva tcadu  paremo'o
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

fo'u lu .ua.ui.uocai coi rodo .i .a'e ju'a banli fa lenu zvati
ti ("Hey people! It's great to be back!) .i le ma'a sancypurdi
pe'a nau se jmaji mulno (Our "sound garden" is now all
gathered.) .i ka'u la te pemci pu bacru lu jamna je remna .i
mi sanga li'u (As the Poet says: 'Arma virumque cano.') .iji'a
lu xamsi pe'a fa lo temci .i ku'i fanmo ri vi le korbi pe'a
li'u (Or: 'Time is an ocean but it ends at the shore.') .i
tugni (Yeah!) .i je'e .i je'e (Thank you, thank you.) .i pamoi
.ai mi tcidu lebi'u cmalu .o'anai (First I'll read a little something.) .i
di'e pemci le kamvli po'u lo valsi (This is a
poem about the power of the Word.) .i lu mi cu morji le cmene
be mi li'u tcita (It's called: 'I remember my name'.) .itu'e

ni'a le gleki galtrene
ku mi cu morji le cmene
be mi .i te pemci
.i la'edi'u lo temci
ta'e fanva le bangu
be lei ninmu je nanmu
.i pilno le mliburskami
lenu titsanga le prami
betri .oi.o'onaicaidai
.i xu mi rere'u ba firgai
dasni .i zasni fa ledo
nunzva be mi doi ba karvro

tu'u li'u bacru (Under the happy monorail I remember my name.
Poet. One who is in the habit of translating time into the
language of women & men. Uses a beige computer to sing sweetly
of the lover's tragedy (drat!). Will I again wear the mask? Is temporary
your absence from me, O Open Door!" said the Vicar.)
.i xance savru (Applause.) .i ko'u co'a sanli ca lenu cpedu
(Kater^ina stood when her name was called.) .i ca'umo'i cadzu
(And moved to the front.) .i catlu (Looked out.) .i sumne le
sigycma (Smelled cigarettes.) .i bacru lu naku lo remna ka'e
pensi finti da poi zmadu di'u leka condi pe'a li'u (She said,
"Greater profundity than that, cannot be conceived of.") .i
fo'u co'a terpa setai le da'i nu vo'a ba'o viska lo noryru'i
(The Vicar looked like he'd seen a ghost.)


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#1566
11:54 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  lisri xifei
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

.ue snuti ka simsa .i nadjuno tu'a le blanu .i tolcitno sidbo
fi mi fu'e.ai semu'u le cumki lobyklu fu'o .i zo'onaisai le
lisri betri pu xe fanva fe le pamoi pagbu bele puzu lisri
pefi'i la .akutaga,uas. ku .u'e.u'u .i .iacu'i jetnu mu'e
balvi se xanri .i ku'i mi na nuzba .uu judri


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#1567
12:33 PM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la djan cusku di'e

>But logician's "the" is not "le" at all, but is really "da
>poi pamei", "the unique thing ...".

{da poi pamei} is not the logician's "the" either,
it is "at least one of the things that are singletons".
The closest to the logician's "the" as I understand it
is {le pa broda}.

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1568
12:08 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, John Cowan wrote:

> From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org
>
> mar-@kli.org scripsit:
>
> > if there actually are no real-life fairies, I'd think my statement would be
> > considered true.  Statements about members of the nullset are true, right?
>
> No.  A statement about *every* member of the null set may count as true,
> but statements about specific members are clearly false.
> "All purple rhinos are green" counts as true iff we read it as
> "For all x, x is a purple rhino -> x is green."



If "All purple rhinos are green" is true, then "One fifth of all purple
rhinos are green" must also be true.



-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1569
6:24 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  A Rosta

From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk

> This is the age-old chestnut of Lojban's habit of conflating
> non-veridicality with specificity.  There's not much I can do about
that.
>
> ~mark

If you don't mind doing without gadri -- and they are
superfluous -- then disconflation is easy.

veridical & nonspecific:     da poi    [= lo]
veridical & specific:        ko'a poi
nonveridical & specific:     ko'a voi  [= le]

More generally, {da} (& co.) gives you nonspecifics, {ko'a}
(& co.) gives you specifics, and {voi} gives you the means to
make nonveridical descriptions.

 --And.

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#1570
6:34 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:10:33 -0400 (EDT)
>From: xod xo-@bway.net
>
>From: xod xo-@bway.net
>
>On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, John Cowan wrote:
>
>> From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org
>>
>> mar-@kli.org scripsit:
>>
>> > if there actually are no real-life fairies, I'd think my statement would be
>> > considered true.  Statements about members of the nullset are true, right?
>>
>> No.  A statement about *every* member of the null set may count as true,
>> but statements about specific members are clearly false.
>> "All purple rhinos are green" counts as true iff we read it as
>> "For all x, x is a purple rhino -> x is green."
>
>If "All purple rhinos are green" is true, then "One fifth of all purple
>rhinos are green" must also be true.

But "one fifth of all purple rhinos" is qualitatively different from "some
purple rhino."  The first is still referring to the set or portions of it.
The second is presuming the existence of particular members.  Is that how
you'd see it, John?

~mark

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#1571
6:37 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

>From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:23:00 +0100
>
>From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk
>
>> This is the age-old chestnut of Lojban's habit of conflating
>> non-veridicality with specificity.  There's not much I can do about
>that.
>>
>> ~mark
>
>If you don't mind doing without gadri -- and they are
>superfluous -- then disconflation is easy.
>
>veridical & nonspecific:     da poi    [= lo]
>veridical & specific:        ko'a poi
>nonveridical & specific:     ko'a voi  [= le]
>
>More generally, {da} (& co.) gives you nonspecifics, {ko'a}
>(& co.) gives you specifics, and {voi} gives you the means to
>make nonveridical descriptions.

But {ko'a} isn't specific in the same way "the" is.  {ko'a} is a bound
pronoun, referring to something in particular that must have been defined
already.  "The book" (one which I have in mind, as opposed to just any old
book) is not a "ko'a" yet; I haven't defined it with enough detail and I
haven't bound it to the variable.  And while I can see that it could be
argued that since it's one I have in mind, it's covered by {le}, I still
feel there's some difference.  I know that {bi'u} was introduced to help
answer this problem partly.

~mark

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#1572
6:56 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com

la mark cusku di'e

>lo zilcrida cu blanu / a fairy is blue
>
>(I'd actually be more likely to say loi zilcrida)
>
>if there actually are no real-life fairies, I'd think my statement would be
>considered true.  Statements about members of the nullset are true, right?

No, if there were no fairies, then "at least one fairy is
blue" = {lo zilcrida cu blanu}, would have to be false. "All
fairies are blue" would be true, but thats different.
{lo} has default quantifier {su'o}, "at least one", just
like {da}.

> >>Similarly, "the x such that
> >>Fyx" is {da poi de se broda da[/ke'a]} in {da poi} syntax,
> >
> >That's "some x such that ..." not "the x such that...", which
> >is what pc wanted.
>
>This is the age-old chestnut of Lojban's habit of conflating
>non-veridicality with specificity.  There's not much I can do about that.

Yes, but I doubt pc had any difficulty with {da poi da broda
de}. As I understood it, the whole point of the question
was about the "the".

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1573
7:04 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la xod cusku di'e

>If "All purple rhinos are green" is true, then "One fifth of all purple
>rhinos are green" must also be true.

No doubt about it, because one fifth of zero is still zero.

On the other hand, "some purple rhinos are green", or
equivalently, "at least one purple rhino is green"
will still be false, because in this case "at least one"
is more than "all".

co'o mi'e xorxes



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#1574
7:47 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  xod
From: xod xo-@bway.net





On 26 Aug 1999 mar-@kli.org wrote:





#1575
8:32 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la xod cusku di'e

>Whatever applies to a set must also apply to the subsets.

That's not exactly true. For example "... has 5 members"
applies to a set but not to most of its subsets.

I know you meant that whatever applies to every member
of a set must also apply to every member of the subsets.

That is true, but not very informative for the empty set,
since the only subset of the null set is the null set
itself.

But making a positive claim about {lo broda} requires
the set of broda to be non-empty for the claim to be
true. {lo broda cu brode} is trivially false if
{lo'i broda} is the null set, and {ro lo broda cu brode}
is trivially true.

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1576
10:13 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" lojba-@lojban.org

At 06:59 AM 8/26/99 -0700, Jorge Llambias wrote:
>> >>Similarly, "the x such that
>> >>Fyx" is {da poi de se broda da[/ke'a]} in {da poi} syntax,
>> >
>> >That's "some x such that ..." not "the x such that...", which
>> >is what pc wanted.
>>
>>This is the age-old chestnut of Lojban's habit of conflating
>>non-veridicality with specificity.  There's not much I can do about that.
>
>Yes, but I doubt pc had any difficulty with {da poi da broda
>de}. As I understood it, the whole point of the question
>was about the "the".

Actually, it may be that pc was just a bit rusty and looking for a
refresher, rather than necessarily indicating that we had a problem to
solve.  He may have helped designed a lot of this stuff, but he also has
argued all sides of a question enough that at times he has forgotten what
the final decision was on some prior design issue.

If so, then 1) I would buy the use of ko'a
2) da voi ... gives the intensional sense of "the"
3) le me da poi ... would give the explicit "the", but I'm not sure the point

In other words, what is the difference between "some x" and "the x" in this
context.  The only one I can come up with would be dealt with by
4) roda poi ...

Maybe we need pc to clarify what in particular the issue is for him

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojba-@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


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#1577
12:29 PM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

>From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:10:00 +0100
>
>From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk
>
>> From: mar-@kli.org
>> >
>> >veridical & nonspecific:     da poi    [= lo]
>> >veridical & specific:        ko'a poi
>> >nonveridical & specific:     ko'a voi  [= le]
>> >
>> >More generally, {da} (& co.) gives you nonspecifics, {ko'a}
>> >(& co.) gives you specifics, and {voi} gives you the means to
>> >make nonveridical descriptions.
>>
>> But {ko'a} isn't specific in the same way "the" is.  {ko'a} is a bound
>> pronoun, referring to something in particular that must have been
>defined
>> already.
>
>I think that's only one use of {ko'a}; that is, not all {ko'a}s need be
>bound
>in a goi phrase. They're very much like English it/him/her/them.

Huh!  That's news to me.  Either I missed that ruling/development, or brain
cells in charge of remembering it have been lax.

~mark

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#1578
12:59 PM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  melo tanru remo'o
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

da ve tanru teki'i ma (How do tanru mean?) .i ru'a ri te ckini
lo cusku lo te cusku (I assume it is a relation of an expresser
& an expressed-to.) .i te'i da'i ko'a goi lo karce ko'e goi lo
drata karce ba'o kruca (Suppose one car hits another.) .i
zgana la'edi'u .ije cusku di'e (It is observed, & expressed
thus:) .i tu'e vlile nu penmi (Ciolent meeting.) .i sisygau
simxu (Mutual halting.) .i karce nu damba (Car battle.) .i
ckape joi savru (Noisy peril.) .i se terpa mabla (The feared
Bad Thing.) .i marce porpi (Vehicle breaker.) .i litru zunti
(Travel interferer.) .i snuti fasnu ("Accident".) .i co'i se
darxi (Getting hit.) .i mu'anai cadzu balvi (Walk future...)
tu'u .i kampu se srana (A common referent,) .i na kampu se smuni
(not a common meaning.) .i lo tanru cu cusku da poi valsi vanbi
ji'a (A tanru also expresses a context.) .i ju'e vi le balvi ku
zo pe'a .a lu mela li'u na sarcu so'ole cafne tanru (In the
future, i think figurative markers will be left off some of the commoner
tanru.) .i va'o by. ku le broda brode cu se smuni le
se valsi (In context, those words together will have the force
of a single word.) .i da'i bu'onai (But i cease to speculate.)
ni'o mu'anai .i broda cei tepygau ckaji le jgita cfari po'u le selsanga
pefi'i la krazbis. ce la stelz. ce la nec. ce la .iyn. zi'epoi se tcita la
.o'ai,os. (One thingy means: "The menacing
quality of the guitar intro to the song 'Ohio" by CSNY".) .i
brode cei zdile joi fange ckaji lo mexno vecnu bele dunja
satladru be'o poi lacpu le gunro carce (The other thingy means:
"The amusing & exotic quality of a Mexican ice cream vendor".)
.i nu'o pensi da poi broda brode .ibabo cusku lu davybrodi li'u
(One could consider a combination of the two, & then use that
to modify a third thingy...) .i zo'e davybrodykai (And something
like that.) .i de poi lepa davybrodykai zo'u de zasti (--Which
does exist,) vila vuzyxu'e (Over There.)


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#1579
7:21 AM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  Woops
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

Correction just made to the page just posted: in the first paragraph, {loi
jibri loi se cinri} is replaced by {loi jibri loi zdicinri} (yes, a lujvo.
The {se} was wrong, but I'd forgotten about zdile too).

You know the parser doesn't accept {kybycy} as a lerfu string?  It thinks
it's a brivla.

I'd better stop proofreading this thing or I'll be sending corrigenda out
all day.

~mark

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#1580
8:24 AM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  ci te smadi
 From:   michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com



pamaitu'e go mi bacru gi no prenu cu zvati (If I speak, it's
because no one's there.)  .ije go mi judytirna gi le prenu
cu djica lenu tavls lo drata be mi (And if I listen, it's because
they want to talk to someone else.) .i mi mo (What am I?)
tu'u .i remaitu'e zbasu mi le te ciska marji (I'm made of the
stuff for writing on,) .iseni'inaibo no prenu fi mi ciska (yet no
one writes on me.) .i calenu mi na zvati kei le fasnu cu banli
mabla (When I'm absent, it's a calamity;) gi'eku'i gu'e zdile
ginai betri (but a funny one, not a tragedy.) .i mi mo (What
am I?) tu'u .i cimaitu'e gefu'eti'e mi ckaji lepa skari fu'o (They
say I am one color,) gi noroi sisti lemi nu cenba ku'i (yet I
never stop changing.) .i mi dunda le litki poi sarcu le nunji'e
ku'o (I give the liquid of life) .eji'a le brife poi rinka le lenku
margu (& the wind of death.) .i lo prenu mi di'i catlu (People
are always looking at me,) .iseni'inaibo viska fu'epo'o gonai
da poi tugni ko'a goi levo'a se jinvi ge'u (yet they only see
what confirms what they think) gi de poi natke ko'a fu'o (or
what denies it.) .ije calenu le prenu mi vitke kei mi canci
(When they visit me, I disappear.) .i mi mo tu'u (What am I?)


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#1581
12:53 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: ci te  smadi
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:26:48 PDT
>
>From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com
>
>pamaitu'e go mi bacru gi no prenu cu zvati (If I speak, it's
>because no one's there.)  .ije go mi judytirna gi le prenu
>cu djica lenu tavls lo drata be mi (And if I listen, it's because
>they want to talk to someone else.) .i mi mo (What am I?)

fonxa ke notci zbasu(?)  (A telephone answering machine.  Not wild about
zbasu, but to my surprise vreji had no place for who made the recording)

>tu'u .i remaitu'e zbasu mi le te ciska marji (I'm made of the
>stuff for writing on,) .iseni'inaibo no prenu fi mi ciska (yet no
>one writes on me.) .i calenu mi na zvati kei le fasnu cu banli
>mabla (When I'm absent, it's a calamity;) gi'eku'i gu'e zdile
>ginai betri (but a funny one, not a tragedy.) .i mi mo (What
>am I?)

kalci papri (toilet paper.  But a different euphemism...)

>tu'u .i cimaitu'e gefu'eti'e mi ckaji lepa skari fu'o (They
>say I am one color,) gi noroi sisti lemi nu cenba ku'i (yet I
>never stop changing.) .i mi dunda le litki poi sarcu le nunji'e
>ku'o (I give the liquid of life) .eji'a le brife poi rinka le lenku
>margu (& the wind of death.) .i lo prenu mi di'i catlu (People
>are always looking at me,) .iseni'inaibo viska fu'epo'o gonai
>da poi tugni ko'a goi levo'a se jinvi ge'u (yet they only see
>what confirms what they think) gi de poi natke ko'a fu'o (or
>what denies it.) .ije calenu le prenu mi vitke kei mi canci
>(When they visit me, I disappear.) .i mi mo tu'u (What am I?)

tsani (sky?)

"mi mo" is maybe too broad a question, I dunno...

I only answered because of the challenge of the riddles. :)

~mark

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#1582
1:03 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  ci te smadi drata
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

pamaitu'e na vecnu mi calemu'e fe ko'a goi le karce cu vecnu (I don't come
with a car,) .iseni'inaibo ko'a na mulno secau
mi (but no car is complete without me.) .i ganai mi snada
zukte gi le ponse be le karce na sanji lenu go'i (When I'm
doing my job, the car owner isn't aware of it.) .i mi mo (What
am I?) tu'u .iremaitu'e lo remna xabju mi tetai leza'i lo
finpe le xamsi cu xabju (Humans live in me like fish live in
the sea.) .iseni'inaibo ry. na jimpe le dacti po'u mi (But
they don't know what I am.) .i ry. pilno mi lemu'e kansygau
le girzu (They use me to join them together,) .iseni'inaibo
mi gasnu leza'i ry. sepli (yet I keep them apart.) .i ge mi
vrici carmi gi ro prenu cu jinvi ledu'u le jetnu me mi cu pamei
(I come in every variety, & everyone thinks there is only one
true one.) .i le prenu po'o poi drata jinvi ku'o fenki so'umei
gi'e troci lenu finti le me mi secau lonu sidju (Except a mad
few who try to invent me for themselves.) .i mi mo (What am I?)
tu'u .icimaitu'e mi pu rirci pluka (I used to be a rare
pleasure.) .i mi ca se sabji fau lenu zo'e cpedu (Now I am free
for the asking.) .i mi vrici carmi .ije role tarmi be mi cu
selkei ji'u le frica javni (I come in every variety, & each
has different rules.) .i lo prenu ze'u tadni mi .iseni'inaibo
so'ile certu traji tadni be mi noroi lifri lo ckule (People
study me for years, yet many of my best students never go to
school.) .i mi cusku da poi se mipri (I express what is hidden,)
.ije so'oroiku mi bacru le mutce poi cusku ba'e noda (&
sometimes I say a lot about nothing at all.) .i mi renvi fi
lo mentu .a lo nanca xecto (My life is a thing of minutes or
of hundreds of years.) .i ko troci lenu ranji secau mi (Try to
do without me!) .i mi mo tu'u (What am I?)


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#1583
1:11 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: ci te  smadi
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

drani mulno


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#1584
3:08 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: ci te smadi
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

On 27 Aug 1999 mar-@kli.org wrote:

> From: mar-@kli.org

> fonxa ke notci zbasu(?)  (A telephone answering machine.  Not wild about
> zbasu, but to my surprise vreji had no place for who made the recording)


Force it in with modal "gau".

Or use fonxa spuda minji


-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1585
2:16 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  pycy-
From: pycy-@aol.com

In logic, the article-like objects function like quantifiers, with variables.
 The stock form is "the x such that Fx."  The corresponding Lojban would be
"le da da broda" then (maybe with a separator between the das).  But Lojban,
of course, does not exactly replicate this version but drops the das
altogether, "le broda."  With more complicated predicates, the variable
becomes more important, "the x such that Fyx" can be handled in Lojban with
conversion, "le se broda y," say.  But what about genuine and functioning
complexity?  Though there are several intervening levels of complexity, the
one I am now working with and can not make any headway on is
"the x such that it is not possible that someone conceive that there is a y
greater than x"  conversions and collapsed or permuted tanru cannot be used
here as the scopes of the various operators (possibility, conception,
quantifiers) are crucial in the argument this leads up to.  Suggestions (and,
best of all, citations from the Red Book on how to do it legally) would be
most welcome.
pc

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#1586
2:16 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  unlurking and lujvo
 From:  pycy-
From: pycy-@aol.com

I decided to unlurk to get and give some info, but the recent stuff in the
archive prompted a brief greeting.
The kennings, which *look like* left-brain simulations of right-brain
functions, did serve to remind me to recall to us left-brainers that the
ideal in lujvo has always been not definitions but telling metaphors.
Comments back in the exchanges about computer terminology suggested that this
ideal had been lost (yet again  -- though the previous deviations did not
generally survive).
pc

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#1587
6:38 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: years  as dates
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: 25 Aug 1999 13:16:35 -0000
>From: mar-@kli.org
>
>>This confirms what I had thought.  I had considered introducing {xo} in this
>>lesson but dropped the idea, as {xo} doesn't seem to be that useful outside
>>complicated mekso stuff.
>
>Sure it is.  How many books do you have?  {do ponse xu cukta}

Um... {do ponse xo cukta} I mean.

~mark

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#1588
11:12 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  me lo  tanru pamo'o
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

ju'a jboselsku cnano fa ko'a goi lo tanru pesetai lu'e broda brode (I take
the normal Lojban expression to be a tanru of the form 'broda brode'.) .i
je'unairo'o ko'a simsa ko'e goi lo glico ke mezoi .gy. adjective-noun .gy.
remei ke'eku .a ko'i goi lo tolcitynorgo mezoi .ny. kenningar .ny.
(Superficially this resembles the English "adjective-noun" combination, as
well as Old Norse kennings,) i nago'i (but this is not so;) .ifu'esa'e fanva
ko'e fu lu'e ke le broda poizi'anoi brode .ije fanva ko'i fu lu'e ke mela
broda brode fu'o (the former is better translated by a relative clause & the
latter by a naming expression.)

ni'o .oinairu'e so'i mupli beko'a be'o peti'i la xunre cukta ku'o na'e drani
milxe (Many examples that the Book gives are misleading.) .i fu'ete'i lu
kerfa silka li'u nu'o se basti lu fu'epe'a kerfa silka fu'o .i lu fenki
litki li'u nu'o se basti lu pevyfenki litki li'u .i lu snime nanmu li'u nu'o
se basti lu snime pevnanmu li'u .ije lu kensa bloti li'u .oisai nu'o se
basti lu kensa pevbloti li'u fu'o ('Hair silk' should be '"hair silk"';
'crazy liquid' should be '"crazy" liquid'; 'snow man' 'snow "man"'; &
'spaceship' (!) 'space "ship"'.)

.i li'aka'u la'e lu sudytumla bloti li'u gu'e xirsmi danlu ginai blosmi
velkla (Obviously the expression "ship of the desert" refers to a horselike
animal, not something like an actual boat.) .i lu'e mela sudytumla bloti
kuku jmisampu zmadu (The expression "Ship of the Desert" is clearer.) .iji'a
fu'eda'i pilno lu'e pu'u mela lenku margu kukeiku lenu cusku zo mrobi'o
(Likewise one could use the phrase "Cold Mercury" to say "die";) .i fi zo
morsi cu pilno lu'e ba'o mela lenku margu fu'o .i .e'u lobykai zmadu fa lenu
pilno lu'e ba'o lenku margu (or more lojbanically, "cold mercuryize".)
.iku'i la'edi'u di'e nalsrana je bancu (But that goes beyond the scope of
this essay.)

ni'o pe'i ba'e ko'a bilga co se pilno sekai leka tcini steci .ije ku'i loi
lujvo cu bilga co se pilno fi lo satci skicu bangu (Two-part tanru
themselves should be used situationally, while lujvo should remain the
province of technical language.) .iki'ubo glijbokai jenai lobykai fa lenu
ponsypei so'i valsi fa'onai (For it is un-lojbanic but very
English-language, to want a huge vocabulary.)


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#1589
11:54 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: lisri xifei
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

.ue snuti ka simsa .i nadjuno tu'a le blanu .i tolcitno sidbo
fi mi fu'e.ai semu'u le cumki lobyklu fu'o .i zo'onaisai le
lisri betri pu xe fanva fe le pamoi pagbu bele puzu lisri
pefi'i la .akutaga,uas. ku .u'e.u'u .i .iacu'i jetnu mu'e
balvi se xanri .i ku'i mi na nuzba .uu judri


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#1590
6:15 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: years as dates
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:46:25 +0300
>From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr
>Organization: Bilkent University
>
>From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr
>
>la xorxes. cusku di'e
>
>>
>> la robin cusku die

Jorge, can you convince your system to use ASCII apostrophes and not
spacing acute accents?  I suppose it's not a big deal; I can display them
right when I try.

>> >lenu la kolumbus. facki le cnino gugde se detri li pavosore
>>
>> [cu missing]
>>
>
>Actually the original example in the lesson has a {kei} after {gugde}, which
>I assume does the same trick. It was
>
>lenu la kolumbus. facki lo cnino gugde kei se detri ma

Not good enough.  Without the {kei} you had {cnino gugde se detri}
collapsing into a tanru; with the {kei} you have {nu... kei detri} as a
tanru.  Remember, {nu ... kei} is grammatically a selbri, and as such can
participate in tanru formation.  A {cu} before the {detri} would fix that,
since {cu} can't happen inside a tanru.

>> >{ta'o} I left {le cnino gugde} deliberately vague to avoid
>> >confusion/argument about what he really did discover!
>>
>> {le cnino munje} would work too.
>>
>
>That was my first choice, but I thought it might be a bit malglico.
>Coloumbus doscovered what was (to him at least) a new country, but "The New
>World" for the Americas seems a bit culture-specific.

Likely is.  You could also try {le cnino .iadai gugde}, using empathetic UI
(i.e. there's belief, ascribed to someone else, not the
speaker... hopefully the reader will understand it's Columbus) or {la cnino
munje} and rely on the reader's knowledge of the idiom, taking it as a
name.  Or even {le cnino sei la kolumbus. krici se'u gugde} to make the
empathetic sense more specified.  (That's how I tend to think of {sei}: it
lets you make a bridi (with some structure restrictions) into a UI).

>This confirms what I had thought.  I had considered introducing {xo} in this
>lesson but dropped the idea, as {xo} doesn't seem to be that useful outside
>complicated mekso stuff.

Sure it is.  How many books do you have?  {do ponse xu cukta}

>The convention is Sunday, which I personally find awkward, as I always think
>of Monday as the first day of the week.

As a Hebrew-speaker, I find Sunday=1 easier.  Maybe we should set it to
Wednesday or Tuesday and be equally obnoxious to everyone.

~mark

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#1591
6:40 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  le cimoi  derdesku nuzda
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

mliderdesku tu'i la .ankaras. ti'u li renopi'ecize (Tremor at
Ankara at 20:37) .i .ue ma na ganse la'edi'u (To my surprise, I
didn't notice it)  .i ku'i le mi gunka pendo noi bazi lenu mi
cliva ku cliva le briju ku'o ganse (But my colleague, who left
the office just after me, noticed)  .i ti'e loi cukta pu desku
(Apparently, some books shook)  .i ba le li'i mliterpa ku mi'o
surbi'o je cisma  (After the mild fear, we relax and smile) .i
loi lazycmi cu klama le mi zdani mu'i lenu ri seltsazba (Some
relatives come to our house because it is soundly constructed)
.oicu'i mi sipna tu'i le loldi (I sleep on the floor, but it's no
problem)

ni'o le gugde kanro turni goi ko'a ca pensi lenu guncliva (The
Health Minister is thinking about resigning)  .i lo karni cu
cusku lu ko na pensi  .i ko gasnu li'u (A newspaper says "Don't
think about it, do it!")  .i le gugdi turni goi ko'e cu sarji
ko'a (The Prime Minister supports him)  .i .ue  (I'm surprised)
.i ko'e zunle pe'a .ija ko'e pritu pe'a (The PM is a leftist and
the Health Minister is a rightist) .i ze'e roroi ve'e fe'e roroi
lo'i jecpre bilga lenu simsarji  (At all times, everywhere,
politicians are obliged to support each other)

co'o mi'e robin


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#1592
7:04 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: unlurking and  lujvo
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 pycy-@aol.com wrote:

> From: pycy-@aol.com
>
> I decided to unlurk to get and give some info, but the recent stuff in the
> archive prompted a brief greeting.
> The kennings, which *look like* left-brain simulations of right-brain
> functions, did serve to remind me to recall to us left-brainers that the
> ideal in lujvo has always been not definitions but telling metaphors.



I agree with you here. There is an elegance in mutymi'i (immaterial
machine) as a lujvo for "computer program", that vricyvelskuselnirna
(varied-content nervous-system) lacks as a lujvo for "www".

Your input on this issue would be greatly appreciated. For instance, what
metaphor for the Web occurs to you?



> Comments back in the exchanges about computer terminology suggested that this
> ideal had been lost (yet again  -- though the previous deviations did not
> generally survive).



"previous deviations"?



-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1593
8:53 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la mark cusku di'e

>The thing to remember about all this is that {lo broda} is the same,
>semantically, as {da poi [ke'a] broda}, with the exception that the latter
>also asserts the existence of such a thing, while the
>former doesn't.

I disagree about the exception. They are the same in all respects.
A sumti by itself doesn't assert the existence of anything.
If you say either {lo broda cu brode} or {da poi broda cu brode}
then you need for at least one thing to be a broda in order for
both assertions to be true. And that the thing also be a brode,
of course.

>({le broda} is correspondingly {da voi broda}).

I think that's not right. {le broda} is each of the broda
I have in mind, {da voi broda} is some thing that I am
describing as a broda. The quatifier is crucially different.
{le broda} is {roda voi broda}. Usually we have only one
thing in mind when using {le}, in which case the difference
disappears, but not in the general case.

>Similarly, "the x such that
>Fyx" is {da poi de se broda da[/ke'a]} in {da poi} syntax,

That's "some x such that ..." not "the x such that...", which
is what pc wanted.

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1594
8:54 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  mela senva tcadu  papamo'o
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com



felu

vitno toldi mibypre
.i ragve le rolfoldi
fa le my ruvykai pluta
be le fanmo be le selkei

.i zgana fami lepu'u
cenba je canci
.i levi cfipyboi fi mi
panci le kalcyjolzgu

.i na jundi lo se citka
.a lo se cidja
.i mi genai temci djica
ginai djuno lo tcika

("I am eternal butterfly; across the all-field runs my curvaceous
course to the end of the game. I watch the process of
changing & vanishing. This confuser-ball is to me an odor
of feces-mixed with-roses. I don't notice what is eaten or
what it's food for. I don't crave duration, nor do I know
what time it is,") li'u bacru fale muzypra nene'i le ckafybarja
peni'a le galtrene (the jukebox sang in the coffeehouse
under the monorail.)  .i ko'u sanli vi le bartu gi'e judytirna
(Kater^ina stood outside & listened.) .i sumne le ckafi .e le
ctile .e le vu rirxe (She smelled coffee, oil, & the distant
river.) .i pu'o nicte (Night was drawing on.) ni'o to'omo'i lei
ru'u tcecte cu klama fa fo'u goi lebi'u nanmu poi dasni le
tcadu cipni skari pastu (Out of the shadows came a man
in a pigeon-colored cloak.) .i ko'u vo'a mipri zo'iku (She
shrank back.) .i sance lo cutci poi tilju (The sound of
boots.) .i de'a nu to'e nimre (A whiff of citrus.) .i kerkla .i
denpa .i babo ko'u go'a (Then he went in. She waited,
& went in herself.) ni'o puzi cfari fa lenu cmene sabji fo
le di'i te pemci gubni (Signup for the open mike had just
started.) .i sa'u ko'u co'e (So she signed.) .i porsi fa ko'u
sece'o fo'u neme'e .a'adai la diklo jdaralju (Her turn came
after his. She noticed his name: 'The Vicar'.) .i ko'u lo
crinytcati ba'o cpedu (She ordered green tea.) .i pensi
leko'u galtu sorzda noi xabju se fanta ca'i le jecta ce'e
ki'u leka farlu ckape kei (Thinking about her panelak,
which had been forbidden by the gov ernment on account
of the danger of its collapsing) bale tedydesku pepuzi zi'e
poi ca'o milxe (in the wake of the still slightly continuing
earth tremors.) .i na xruti cumki (She couldn't go back.)
ni'o vi le remoi jubme pete'e le jubme pe ko'u ku'o ku'o
ku fo'u pinxe le ladru poi se vrusi lo xunjba (Two tables
over, the Vicar was drinking strawberry milk.) .i ge xruti
ko'u tu'a le cmene gi vimcu leko'u cmene (She went
back to the signup, scratched out her name) .i basti fa
lu'e purjyralju (& wrote "The Sheriff".)


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#1595
11:06 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" lojba-@lojban.org

At 05:18 AM 8/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: pycy-@aol.com
>In logic, the article-like objects function like quantifiers, with variables.
>  The stock form is "the x such that Fx."

da poi da broda
or
da voi da broda
for the non-veridical "the"
you can use ke'a in place of da after the relative clause operator
You can also insert a prenex with scope only over the relative clause for
handling the next problem:

>   The corresponding Lojban would be
>"le da da broda" then (maybe with a separator between the das).  But Lojban,
>of course, does not exactly replicate this version but drops the das
>altogether, "le broda."  With more complicated predicates, the variable
>becomes more important, "the x such that Fyx" can be handled in Lojban with
>conversion, "le se broda y," say.

da poi de broda da
where you could localize de or globalize it:
da de zo'u da poi de broda da
or
da zo'u da poi de zo'u de broda da

>   But what about genuine and functioning
>complexity?  Though there are several intervening levels of complexity, the
>one I am now working with and can not make any headway on is
>"the x such that it is not possible that someone conceive that there is a y
>greater than x"  conversions and collapsed or permuted tanru cannot be used
>here as the scopes of the various operators (possibility, conception,
>quantifiers) are crucial in the argument this leads up to.  Suggestions (and,
>best of all, citations from the Red Book on how to do it legally) would be
>most welcome.

da poi node zo'u de zmadu da
x such that for no y: y is greater than x

We should have sufficient flexibility in scope specification at the
different levels of prenex, and with nearly the full range of sentence
structure possible within a relative clause, all of the quantifiers and
operators should be usable with no particular trouble.

Clearly the chapter on relative clauses - the whole chapter, is relevant to
the problem.

lojbab



>pc
>
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----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojba-@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


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#1596
11:56 AM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  John Cowan

From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org

mar-@kli.org scripsit:

> The thing to remember about all this is that {lo broda} is the same,
> semantically, as {da poi [ke'a] broda}, with the exception that the latter
> also asserts the existence of such a thing, while the former doesn't.  ({le
> broda} is correspondingly {da voi broda}).  Similarly, "the x such that
> Fyx" is {da poi de se broda da[/ke'a]} in {da poi} syntax, and {lo se broda
> be de} as a gadrified sumti (note the necessity for the link with {be};
> also note I'm glossing over the implicit existential quantifier on {de} as
> well).
>
> Given this parity between {lo broda} and {da poi broda}, you can easily see
> how to create something of any complexity:
>
> da poi le nu rode rodi zo'u de krici lenu di zmadu da kei kei cu na cumki

Correct. But logician's "the" is not "le" at all, but is really "da
poi pamei", "the unique thing ...".

--
John Cowan                                   cowa-@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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#1597
6:30 PM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:56:27 PDT
>
>From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com
>
>
>la mark cusku di'e
>
>>The thing to remember about all this is that {lo broda} is the same,
>>semantically, as {da poi [ke'a] broda}, with the exception that the latter
>>also asserts the existence of such a thing, while the
>>former doesn't.
>
>I disagree about the exception. They are the same in all respects.
>A sumti by itself doesn't assert the existence of anything.
>If you say either {lo broda cu brode} or {da poi broda cu brode}
>then you need for at least one thing to be a broda in order for
>both assertions to be true. And that the thing also be a brode,
>of course.

Well, I understand that that's the official take on it, and I'm not sure I
can disagree.  After all, it makes a difference.  Let's see... given the
lujvo {zilcrida} meaning "fairy" but with the x2 (mythos) place removed:
"real life" fairies.  If I say

lo zilcrida cu blanu / a fairy is blue

(I'd actually be more likely to say loi zilcrida)

if there actually are no real-life fairies, I'd think my statement would be
considered true.  Statements about members of the nullset are true, right?
But

da poi zilcrida cu blanu / something1 which-is-a fairy is blue

is considered the same as {so'u da zo'u da poi zilcrida...}: there exists
at least one x1, such that it's a fairy, is blue.  And if there are no
fairies, then the statement is false, since I asserted existence.  I
thought the {lo} way of doing it referred to a (putative) member of the set
without necessarily asserting its existence.  A sumti doesn't assert
existence, but I thought that free variables are implicitly quantified by
{su'o} and implicitly in a prenex.

>>({le broda} is correspondingly {da voi broda}).
>
>I think that's not right. {le broda} is each of the broda
>I have in mind, {da voi broda} is some thing that I am
>describing as a broda. The quatifier is crucially different.
>{le broda} is {roda voi broda}. Usually we have only one
>thing in mind when using {le}, in which case the difference
>disappears, but not in the general case.
>
>>Similarly, "the x such that
>>Fyx" is {da poi de se broda da[/ke'a]} in {da poi} syntax,
>
>That's "some x such that ..." not "the x such that...", which
>is what pc wanted.

This is the age-old chestnut of Lojban's habit of conflating
non-veridicality with specificity.  There's not much I can do about that.

~mark

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#1598
9:46 PM Wed 25 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  John Cowan

From: John Cowan cowa-@locke.ccil.org

mar-@kli.org scripsit:

> if there actually are no real-life fairies, I'd think my statement would be
> considered true.  Statements about members of the nullset are true, right?

No.  A statement about *every* member of the null set may count as true,
but statements about specific members are clearly false.
"All purple rhinos are green" counts as true iff we read it as
"For all x, x is a purple rhino -> x is green."

--
John Cowan                                   cowa-@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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#1599
6:24 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re:  Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  A Rosta

From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk

> This is the age-old chestnut of Lojban's habit of conflating
> non-veridicality with specificity.  There's not much I can do about
that.
>
> ~mark

If you don't mind doing without gadri -- and they are
superfluous -- then disconflation is easy.

veridical & nonspecific:     da poi    [= lo]
veridical & specific:        ko'a poi
nonveridical & specific:     ko'a voi  [= le]

More generally, {da} (& co.) gives you nonspecifics, {ko'a}
(& co.) gives you specifics, and {voi} gives you the means to
make nonveridical descriptions.

 --And.

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#1600
7:19 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  Jorge Llambias

From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com


la and to coi doi and ui toi cusku di'e

> > >veridical & nonspecific:     da poi    [= lo]
> > >veridical & specific:        ko'a poi
> > >nonveridical & specific:     ko'a voi  [= le]

Yes! I remember now that we had discussed this.

> > But {ko'a} isn't specific in the same way "the" is.  {ko'a} > is a bound
>pronoun, referring to something in particular > that must have been defined
>already.
>
>I think that's only one use of {ko'a}; that is, not all {ko'a}s need be
>bound in a goi phrase. They're very much like English >it/him/her/them.

And if you feel the need for every {ko'a} to be bound, then
assume that previously unbound {ko'a} are simply
{ko'a goi le co'e}, which I think will get us back to
what we want.

co'o mi'e xorxes


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#1601
3:04 PM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  mela  senva tcadu pacimo'o
 From:  michael helsem

From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

ko'u lu

roda narselmipri
vila vuzyxu'e
.i lo tcadu cipni
vila vuzyxu'e
ka'e ravycadzu
.i vila vuzyxu'e
ku mi lo se xabju
nu'o facki .u'e
.o'a.a'oru'e
ki'u lenu troci
fliba fa lai ti'ocpi
vila vuzyxu'e

li'u tcidu bacru ("Everything's unhidden, Over There. A pigeon
Over There can cross. I a dwelling-place may find (wonder!)(pride!)(mild
hope!), for the Birds of Shade fail their trying, Over There," she read.) .i
fo'u lu .ianaicai do na morsi
li'u krixa cale pemci cfari gi'ebabo smabi'o ("you're supposed
to be dead!" he cried at the beginning, then fell silent.) .i
zo'e lu remei se tigni li'u bacru (Someone said, "It's a double performance
piece.") .i sei co'a panra befa le se senva po'u dei
((Now the dream divides.)) .ibo va'oki pale remei ku se'u ko'u
facki ledu'u fo'u ba'o barkla .ije po'o le xadba bele ladru cu
stali ((In one version) she finds that he has left & only half a
glass of milk remains at the table.) .ibazabo fo'u vlile nerkla
lefo'u selci zdani (Later on, she breaks into his apartment) .i
ze'uba gu'e xabju gi gleki (& lives happily ever after.) .i sei
va'oki le drata se'u ko'u mo'u tcidu bacru ((In the other version)
she finishes reading.) .i fo'u pinxe le ladru (He finishes his
milk.) .i ze'e selfityborpa'arjevnardudbortugykemctasi'u (For
awhile they regard each other, with anticipation, but
reluctantly.) .i le ckafybarja puna'o jaivi menynundamba (The coffeehouse
has seen mental combats before.)


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#1602
1:05 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Mac Logflash fcfg file?
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

If anybody has a .fcfg file for MacOS LogFlash that works, I'd like a
copy. The gismu.demo file doesn't give me an input window, and the
standard one simply creates freaky behavior.

Thanks!


-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1603
7:08 AM Thu 26 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and gadro
 From:  A Rosta

From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk

> From: mar-@kli.org
> >
> >veridical & nonspecific:     da poi    [= lo]
> >veridical & specific:        ko'a poi
> >nonveridical & specific:     ko'a voi  [= le]
> >
> >More generally, {da} (& co.) gives you nonspecifics, {ko'a}
> >(& co.) gives you specifics, and {voi} gives you the means to
> >make nonveridical descriptions.
>
> But {ko'a} isn't specific in the same way "the" is.  {ko'a} is a bound
> pronoun, referring to something in particular that must have been
defined
> already.

I think that's only one use of {ko'a}; that is, not all {ko'a}s need be
bound
in a goi phrase. They're very much like English it/him/her/them.

> "The book" (one which I have in mind, as opposed to just any old
> book) is not a "ko'a" yet; I haven't defined it with enough detail and
I
> haven't bound it to the variable.  And while I can see that it could
be
> argued that since it's one I have in mind, it's covered by {le}, I
still
> feel there's some difference.  I know that {bi'u} was introduced to
help
> answer this problem partly.

I'm not sure I understand you, but perhaps you are supposing that {ko'a}
guarantees the recoverability of the referent by the addressee. If so, I
don't think this is the case.

 --And.

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#1604
6:02 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadri
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

la mark. cusku di'e


> Huh!  That's news to me.  Either I missed that ruling/development, or brain
> cells in charge of remembering it have been lax.
>

News to me too - I was once taken to task for using {ko'a} without
specifying it, and rightly so, I think.  The closest Lojban equivalent
of he/she/it as an anaphoric pronoun is probably the ri/ra/ru series.

co'o mi'e robin.




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#1605
3:08 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: ci te smadi
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

On 27 Aug 1999 mar-@kli.org wrote:

> From: mar-@kli.org

> fonxa ke notci zbasu(?)  (A telephone answering machine.  Not wild about
> zbasu, but to my surprise vreji had no place for who made the recording)


Force it in with modal "gau".

Or use fonxa spuda minji


-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1606
7:09 AM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  KLI info in Lojban
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

I just put up the following text on
http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html , here reposted for convenience
and ease of quoting in reviews.  It is the KLI's usual information page,
Lojban version.  You can see the other versions at
http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/ and pick one that you understand so you can
see what I was trying to translate, more or less.  A good one to use is
E-Prime, which didn't change much from the English (though it did a
little).

It's a pretty complex translation, and I'm actually quite proud of at least
parts of it.  Some of it is really complex, but occasionally necessary.  I
remembered about {vu'o} after wracking my brains and working around it by
using two sentences... and then left it as two sentences since they were
already too long and complicated.  I've used a lot of Lojban's features,
and I think with decent effect.  Although I call the KLI {la klingon. zei
bangu ckule} I tend to use the fu'ivla {bangrklingo} in the article more
often.  It seemed obvious enough, but the more recognizable name should go
in the institution's name.  I was careful with using {mi}; note the {mi'e}
at the bottom... I was perhaps a little inconsistent with names, sometimes
using {la} and sometimes {la'o}.  Mostly I used {la'o} for names that were
perhaps complicated and/or unlikely to be recognized if transliterated (and
even for my own name at the end, for recognition purposes, though I'm not
sure about that).  I tend to avoid lots and lots of lujvo, preferring
tanru, but there are lujvo there, not necessarily all well-designed.  The
"Qapla'" heading at the end is extremely stilted, but I couldn't get the
idea across properly otherwise.

Whatever, I'll ramble about this forever, given the chance.  You folks read
it and see what you think.


                          la klingon. zei bangu ckule

   ni'oni'o
   co'a la pasosorenan. la klingon. zei bangu ckule goi kybycy. cu ca'o
   zukte fi lezu'o penri'a lei se cinri be loi kulnrklingo bansaske ja
   klusaske gi'e cumri'a lenu casnu je sibycanja .i mi se cmima loi je'a
   vrici .i go'i loi sarji be la star. trek. be'o poi kucli le
   bangrklingo ku'o joi loi xanri kelci tarti poi djica lenu leke'a xanri
   prenu cu jetnu simlu ku'o joi loi ke tadni ja certu ke'e be loi bauske
   ja samske ja menske be'o poi ga krici ledu'u le bangrklingo cu xamgu
   ke ctuca selpli kei gi djica lenu jmino loi jibri loi se cinri .i
   ni'inai leza'i kybycy. se judri zo'epe la jorne jecta kei ra sornatmi
   .imu'a loi ri cmima ca'a xabju su'ocino gugde ku jo'u ro lo ze
   bratumla

   ni'o
   le bangu be lai klingon. cu se simsa noda .i fu'e sa'unai loi drata
   bangu pu se finti gi'a ji'a se finti seva'u lei fi'arlisri prenu
   .iku'i le bangrklingo cu jai mupli le'i so'u nu lo bancre seka'i finti
   lo bangu be lei naltedypre .iji'a lei ranmi pe la star. trek. jai
   nanca li su'ocino gi'e te ciste lei fadni kulnu gi'ebo se cinri ve'u
   le terdi .i la'edi'u krinu .uonai leza'i lai sonci bangu cu misno fu'o

   ni'o
   doi cfari tadni be le bangrklingo ko co'a tadni pi'o la'o .gic. The
   Klingon Dictionary .gic. no'u la bangrklingo vlaste zi'enoi la mark.
   okrand. finti ke'a zi'enoi se cupra la'o .gic. Pocket Books .gic.
   zi'enoi se tcita li nopi'exazepapi'ezevomumusopi'exy. ci'e la
   .isybynyn. .i my.obu noi bancertu pu finti le bangu seka'i la'o .gic.
   Paramount Studios .gic. gi'e pu sidju fi tu'a so'o skina pe la star.
   trek ge'u .e so'o tivyskina pe la'o .gic. Star Trek: The Next
   Generation .gic. .i .e'u ko terve'u geji'a la'o .gic. Conversational
   Klingon .gic. no'u la tavla bangrklingo to se tcita li
   nopi'exazepapi'ezesozecisopi'emu ci'e la .isybynyn. toi gi la'o .gic.
   Power Klingon .gic. no'u la vlipa bangrklingo to se tcita li
   nopi'exazepapi'ebizesozepi'ebi toi .i le sego'i cu remei co
   srisnavelvei fi'ijecu'u la mark. okrand. cu'uji'a la maikl. dorn. gi'e
   ka'e sidju do lezu'o cilre loi se selba'u pe le bangrklingo kei gi'e
   ka'e xe ctuca do pisu'o lei selpli jufra .i ganai do xabju la jorne
   jecta gi le do diklo ke cukta zarci cu ka'e ju'o cpacu fu'idai le
   cukta .e le velvei fi'o te vecnu do .iji'a do ka'e te vecnu ra kybycy.
   sepi'o [1]le vi samdatnysorcu

   ni'o
   la'o .kliz. [2]HolQeD .kliz. goi xy. zi'enoi karni fi kybycy. fi'o te
   dikni le nanca be li fi'uvo kei cu ralju ve cusku fo kybycy. .i ro
   mupli cu ve cusku loi pixra ku jo'u loi fadni jo'u nalfadni prosa be
   lei kulnrklingo banske ja bangu ja kulnu .i ji'a so'eroi go'i pisu'o
   lei xatra befi lei cmima be'o poi jai vecu'u darlu ja casnu loi sidbo
   ja se darlu pe loi pu mupli .ije la'edi'u se jalge lenu simxu sinma
   gi'e zifre casnu .i xy. zmadu le'e fadni nuzykarni fo lenu xy.
   balckule karni gi'e ve cusku lei prosa poi pu se tcidu je se pinka fi
   lei certu terpinka noi na djuno fi le te prosa ku'o ku'o gi'e cmima
   le'i se liste be la cukta sorcu pe la trukamni ge'u .e la cabna bangu
   girzu

   ni'o
   doi loi co'ajapu'o tadni ga'obi'iga'o cretavla .e loi pu noroi tadni
   be lo fange bangu be'o ga'obi'iga'o tcidu je ciska bebau so'i bangu
   do'u .i ganai do se cinri le bangrklingo gi do .i'i cmima je kansa
   .e'usai mi lepu'o tadni le bangu poi traji le ka sutra banro kei le'i
   bangu pe le munje pe'a

                            zoi .kliz. Qapla'.kliz.

   sei ri lesi'o snada kei le bangrklingo cu valsi se'u sei sepa'a zo
   co'o vi se pilno

   co'o mi'e kybycy. neka'i la'o .gic. [3]Lawrence M. Schoen .gic. noi
   jatna kybycy. .i dei se fanva la'o .gic. [4]Mark Shoulson .gic.

References

   1. http://www.kli.org/kli/Merchant.phtml
   2. http://www.kli.org/kli/HolQeD.html
   3. mailto:lawrenc-@kli.org
   4. http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/mar-@kli.org


~mark

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#1607
5:06 PM Fri 27 Aug 99
 Subject:  le vomoi derdesku  nuzda
 From:  Robin Turner

From: Robin Turner robi-@bilkent.edu.tr

ca'o carvi (It continues to rain)  .i le prenu poi xabju le derdesku
gugde cu cusku lu le beidru tcadu cu binxo le cimde'u tcadu li'u (The
people inhabiting the earthquake country say "The tent city has become a
mud city")  .i ta'o le di'u cu lo bangrturku xamselfi'i noi na'e xamgu
selfanvi (By the way, this is a Turkish-language joke which doesn't
translate well)  .i ta'onai le prenu cu fangu (Anyway, the people are
angry)  .i le go'i cusku lenu lei turni na banzu sarji (They say the
government doesn't help enough) .i ku'i le go'i cu ckire le muje cecmu
lenu sarji (But they are thankful to the world community for their help)

ni'o ti'e so'i le nurprecau se cirko (I hear that many orphans have been
lost)  .i se cusku lenu la'a le go'i se vecnu le fange rorci (It is said
that they may have been sold to foreign parents)  .i se cusku lenu le
rango po'e le go'i se vecnu (It is said that their organs may have been
sold) .ianairu'e (I don't quite believe this) .i a'o tcadu ranmi (I hope
it is an urban legend) .i ta'o xu di'u malglico (Incidentally, is the
last sentence malglico?)  .i mi .e le mi speni pu nelci lenu mi'a rirni
lo nurprecau (My wife and I wanted to adopt an orphan) .i ku'i le
truci'e cu curmi lonu nurprecau rirni lonu le rirni cu ponse lo zdani
po'o (But the government only allows parents who own a house to adopt)
.i so'e le prenu poi xabju le gugdrturkie na zdane ponse (Most people
who live in Turkey are not home-owners)  .i mi'a zdani jerle'i (We
rent)  .i mi fengu (I'm angry)

ni'o xamgu nuzda (There is good news)  fi le taske sigja ke derdesku
prenu cu dunda fa le truci'e fe le sigja (The people of the earthquake
who are addicted to cigarettes are provided with cigarettes by the
government)  .i ji'a la galatasarais. puzi jinga fi la rapidvin.
(Furthermore, Galatasaray recently beat Rapid Wien)  .i ca badri ku
gleki lonu nalvajni fasnu  (In times of sadness, people are happy about
unimportant events)



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#1608
7:41 AM Sat 28 Aug 99
 Subject:  Anselm  summary
 From:  pycy-
From: pycy-@aol.com

Thank you for all your cards and letters,...
Let's see.
Since Anselm's point in introducing the description (of God, by the way) is
to prove that a being satisfying that description exists, the lo and da poi
versions have to be excluded immediately, since they contain implicitly the
conclusion of the argument in the premise (circular reasoning of a rather
obvious sort -- and Anselm ain't obvious).  That seems to leave le, which has
the added advantage of showing up one of the common attacks on Anselm's
argument, that "the F is not an F" is not a contradiction, as Anselm would
have it (and, indeed, is a proof that there is no F). On the other hand, it
is still not possible to do the complicated buried referent with the gadro.
So, that leads to da voi, which makes a lot of sense historically.  Anselm is
in fact proposing this description as his way of talking about God (inspired
by the Holy Spirit, he says).  And he wrote decent Latin, so he does not
actually use articles, though he does switch between "something" and "it" in
a way that pretty closely parallels the English "a/the",
introduction/continuation, pattern. Of course, he is convinced that his
description is veridical, but voi does not deny that -- it merely leaves it
up to the situation to determine.  And Anselm clearly thinks that Guanilo's
almost identically formulated  description, of a most perfect island, is not
veridical (the situation is somewhat more complicated than that sounds like,
but that is close enough for present purposes).  Speaking of Guanilo,
Anselm's best response to him
(not the one he is usually credited with making) is that while an island  --
or any other specific kind of thing -- than which none greater can be
conceived is not coherent, for we
can always thing of ways of improving a particular sort of thing, an
unqualified that than which ... does not allow this sort of improvement
beyond a limit.  Thus, while Xorxes' first suggestion helps a lot, the
possibility that even broda counts as a specific sort of thing may be enough
to sink it in Anselm's eyes.  And, of course, the poi would have to be voi to
avoid immediate circularity.
Anselm wants his none-greater to be unique of course, but another attack on
his argument is to note that he has not eliminated the case of  two (or
twenty) equally great being at the apex, none conceivably surpassing any
other.  So, the pa and the uniqueness of logical "the" are not entirely to
the point either, though good to think about.
I do not see that ko'a voi offers any advantages over da voi at this point,
though it clearly is permitted without a previous (or later) goi.
Before somebody else mentions it, I note that the da format does commit me
(and
Anselm) to there being something called that than which ..., even if it is
not ....  But the crucial point is whether anything is ... and if that
so-called thing is not, it does not matter what it is otherwise.  So, in
particular, we have not smuggled God in in the variable, Anselm's idea of God
(which clearly does exist -- even in the mind of the Fool who says that God
does not) will do fine for the purpose.  The whole discussion here has shown,
however, that Aquinas had good reasons for suspecting that Anselm's proof
failed from well-concealed circularity, presupposing the existence of what he
claimed to prove.
Thanks for helping clarify this for me; I'll let you know how it finally
comes out (well, I'll let you read a trat of Proslogion 2, which will not --
this list being what it is -- ever be final).
By the way, I am now persuaded that Lojban etc. does not conflate specificity
and
veridicality.  The distinction is merely specific/non-specific.  Non-specific
must be
veridical  else there is no hook for identifying an appropriate object at all
(Note &'s list
does not contain non-veridical non-specific cases).  Specific, on the other
hand, works on the principle that, since the object is identified, it does
not matter what you call it, though pragmatic (again -- that is what forces
the issue for non-specific) recommends something that will help the ignorant
to find the right thing, thus either veridical or pretty transparent in
context.  Note, le and voi do not REQUIRE non-veridicality and probably would
not usually use it, Mike Hammer cases aside.  But, as Lojbab notes, I have
argued so many sides of  this over the years that I am not sure where the
world is any more on it.
pc

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#1609
11:15 AM Sat 28 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: me  la .anselm.
 From:  michael helsem
From: "michael helsem" graywyver-@hotmail.com

ganai le se xusra be la .anselm. cu logji gi vo'a lojbo se cusku cumki ku
pe'i .i ju'e na smuni se xusra

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#1610
8:48 PM Sat 28 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: ci te  smadi
 From:  mar-

From: mar-@kli.org

>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:07:42 -0400 (EDT)
>From: xod xo-@bway.net
>cc: lojba-@onelist.com
>
>On 27 Aug 1999 mar-@kli.org wrote:
>
>> From: mar-@kli.org
>
>> fonxa ke notci zbasu(?)  (A telephone answering machine.  Not wild about
>> zbasu, but to my surprise vreji had no place for who made the recording)
>
>
>Force it in with modal "gau".

The question was asked with {mo}, so I was answering with a selbri.  The
modal {gau} wouldn't work unless I used {fonxa ke notci jai gau vreji},
which seemed a little too complex.

>Or use fonxa spuda minji

Kinda glico, no?  A "phone answering machine"?  I was thinking of it more
specifically: a device that records phone messages, or a phonish type of
message-recorder.

~mark


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#1611
9:35 PM Sat 28 Aug 99
 Subject:  Relative  clauses
 From:  mar-
From: mar-@kli.org

I had forgotten/didn't know about the existence of {vu'o} until recently,
and I can certainly see the need for it.  But I was a little surprised at
its simplicity.  Not the Lojban way of doing things at all.  Lojban likes
making parentheses to delimit the scope of things, but here we haven't done
that.  How could I say in Lojban "I like men and women and children with
blue eyes", meaning I like all men, and also those women and children who
have blue eyes?  {vu'o} won't do the trick; it would apply the relative
clause to all of them.  Don't tell me I should re-order the sumti, or I'll
have to think of another example for which that won't work, after hurting
you.  I thought maybe a one-element termset could solve the problem, but
you can't attach relative clauses to termsets (which likely is a Good
Thing).  I think the way to do it is to use LAhE/LUhU bracketing.  In many
simple cases, probably {lu'a}.  The downside is that {lu'a} is quantified
by default to "at least one of..." and in this case we'd want "all of".  So
it would have to be {ro lu'a}, right?

John, that sound right?  There's definitely a need for SOME way to do this
with brackets.

~mark

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#1612
5:50 AM Sun 29 Aug 99
 Subject:  buckwheat
 From:  Diane Burgess
From: "Diane Burgess" yfn-@home.com





The effort to translate the English definitions of Lojban words into Russian has begun by Mr. Evgeny Sklyanin, and one of the first questions that surfaced was the issue of buckwheat.  To wit:




#1613
9:02 AM Sun 29 Aug 99
 Subject:  EU patent system  lobbying
 From:  PILCH Hartmut

From: PILCH Hartmut ph-@a2e.de

This June I proposed here a petition draft for bringing the idea of a
Logical Language into the European Patent system.  Currently intense
lobbying is going on, because the EU is "harmonizing" its patent system
and, under this guise, planning to enlarge its scope to include software.

The petition draft got support from some Lojbanists at the time, but still
I am not sure whose name I can put under it.  See yourself at

        http://swpat.ffii.org/lojban/

-phm


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#1614
5:47 PM Sun 29 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: buckwheat
 From:  Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" lojba-@lojban.org

At 08:49 AM 8/29/99 -0400, Diane Burgess wrote:
>From: "Diane Burgess" yfn-@home.com
>
>The effort to translate the English definitions of Lojban words into Russian
>has begun by Mr. Evgeny Sklyanin, and one of the first questions that
>surfaced was the issue of buckwheat.  To wit:
>
> >I am puzzled with mentioning buckwheat (гречка, гречиха)
> together with
> >rhubarb (ревень) and sorrel (щавель). For me rhubarb and
> sorrel are
> >vegetables (juicy stem/leaves) with strong sour taste. The buckwheat,
> >on the contrary, is a source of grain which, in Russia, we use to
> >make a sort of porridge (гречневая каша). Do you, in
> America, eat
> >buckwheat as a salad?
>
>My answer to him sounds like a defense of a malglico-ism, but I don't have
>enough botanical expertise to know if it makes sense in this case to use the
>same word for family, genus, and species.
>
> >Buckwheat in English designates both genus >_Fagopyrum_ (the grain from
>which
> >your porridge is made), and family
> > _Polygonaceae_ (which includes rhubarb, dock, >and sorrel).
>
>Request some helpful explanations.
>
>garis

You guessed the intent exactly - to stretch the Lojban words for the
staples  to cover the broadest possible useful meaning (in this case the
family), allowing lujvo to narrow things to the genus/species when
demanded.  Most of the time the gismu would work just fine for all of the
above - you don't make rhubarb or sorrel porridge, so if the discussion
mentions porridge, then you must be referring to the staple grain.

Presumably you could also make the lujvo for buckwheat-grain to
specifically get the grain to the exclusion of the other possibilities.

Several of the other plant and animal gismu were written up hoping to give
a broad meaning to be restricted when necessary using lujvo.  The word for
hemp thus can be used for marijuana, and possibly for other hemp-like
plants used in rope making.  The word for taro root I think had similar
extensions in mind, but I can't remember what they were (tapioca, maybe?)

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojba-@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.


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#1615
7:04 AM Mon 30 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: buckwheat
 From:  Gustavo Eulalio

From: Gustavo Eulalio gug-@guganet.8m.com

On: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:49:34 -0400
Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:
=---------=---------=---------=---------=
> [...] The word for taro root I think had similar
> extensions in mind, but I can't remember what they were (tapioca, maybe?)

        I beleive it's "yam" or "mandioca". I don't know a translation
for mandioca, there mustn't be one. I also couldn't find scientific
names.
        "Tapioca" is a kind of a flour made of the mandioca root, also a
kind of a pancake made with that flour (at least here, where I live).
Hmmmm, delicious with coconut scrape and some butter.

--
~~~~~~~~~ Gustavo Eulalio ~~~~~~~~~~~ gug-@guganet.8m.com ~~~~~~~~~
~~ "The brain is to think. The mouth is to talk. In that order." ~~
~~  Robert Half                                                  ~~

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#1616
7:25 PM Mon 30 Aug 99
 Subject:  je'e do drani
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

Does "je'e do drani" equal (according to the rules, not the parser output)
"je'e .i do drani", or "je'e do .i drani"?

-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS


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#1617
8:42 PM Mon 30 Aug 99
 Subject:  remo'o la dao de jin
 From:  xod

From: xod xo-@bway.net

mi djica le do pinka ja drani galfi

2. Abstraction

When beauty is abstracted
Then ugliness has been implied;
When good is abstracted
Then evil has been implied.

So alive and dead are abstracted from nature,
Difficult and easy abstracted from progress,
Long and short abstracted from contrast,
High and low abstracted from depth,
Song and speech abstracted from melody,
After and before abstracted from sequence.

The sage experiences without abstraction,
And accomplishes without action;
He accepts the ebb and flow of things,
Nurtures them, but does not own them,
And lives, but does not dwell.

remo'o .i le si'o sucta

.i le nu sucta be fa le si'o melbi
cu nibli le ka to'e melbi

.i le nu sucta be fa le si'o xamgu
cu nibli le ka to'e xamgu

.i ni'o
.i seni'ibo tu'e
.i le si'o jmive kei joi si'o to'e jmive cu sucta le ka rarna munje
.i le si'o nandu kei joi si'o to'e nandu cu sucta le ka banro
.i le si'o clani kei joi si'o to'e clani cu sucta le ka frica
.i le si'o galtu kei joi si'o to'e galtu cu sucta le ka condi
.i le si'o sanga kei joi si'o bacru cu sucta le ka ralsa'azgi
.i le si'o balvi kei joi si'o to'e balvi cu sucta le ka porsi
.i tu'u

.i ni'o
.i le prije goi ko'a cu nu sucta kei claxu lifri
.i ji'a ko'a cu nu zukte kei claxu snada

.i ko'a cu no'e cinmo je zgana le ke nu jmina kei joi nu to'e jmina kei
ke'e ctaru be le munje goi ko'e
.i ko'a cu rinka le nu le ko'e banro
.i ku'i ko'a cu na porse ko'e
.i ji'a ko'a cu jmive lifre
.i ku'i ko'a cu na xabju


-----
When somebody says, here is this nice thing that you will
enjoy using but if you share it with your neighbor we'll
call you a pirate and put you in jail, they are polluting
society's most important resource, which is goodwill, the
willingness to cooperate with other people.   -- RMS



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#1618
7:46 AM Tue 31 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Anselmisms and  gadro
 From:  A Rosta
From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk

> >I think that's only one use of {ko'a}; that is, not all {ko'a}s need
be
> >bound in a goi phrase. They're very much like English
it/him/her/them.
>
> Huh!  That's news to me.  Either I missed that ruling/development, or
brain
> cells in charge of remembering it have been lax.
>
> ~mark

AFA-the-little-IK, I'm the only one to have used {ko'a} without it being
overtly
bound,so I don't think you've forgotten anything, but the description of
{ko'a}
that I gave is, I believe (& most others seem to agree), consistent with
the letter
& spirit of the Woldy Codex. I imagine it was Jorge who first realized
this.

 --And. [I mean The Refgram, of course. - by the "codex", that is.]

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#1619
8:04 AM Tue 31 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: Re: Anselmisms and  gadri
 From:  A Rosta

From: A Rosta a.rost-@uclan.ac.uk

> > Huh!  That's news to me.  Either I missed that ruling/development,
or brain
> > cells in charge of remembering it have been lax.
>
> News to me too - I was once taken to task for using {ko'a} without
> specifying it, and rightly so, I think.  The closest Lojban equivalent
> of he/she/it as an anaphoric pronoun is probably the ri/ra/ru series.
>
> co'o mi'e robin.

{ko'a poi/voi} does of course specify -- or at least go some way
towards specifying - the referent.  As for the likeness of {ri} to
English personal pronouns, the task at hand was not to find a
Lojban counterpart for the personal pronouns per se but rather
to find a Lojban counterpart for "a certain something/one",
"a specific thing" (which is pretty much what I take English
him/her/it/them to mean).

I'm sure I have seen others besides myself observe that if every
statement
contained an explicit illocutionary operator (I hereby assert/order/...
that)
then +specific references are equivalent to an ordinary existentially
quantified variable outside the scope of the illocutionary operator.
Thus:

            brode le broda
and
            brode ko'a (voi ke'a broda)

are equivalent to

            da  (voi ke'a broda) I-HEREBY-ASSERT: brode da

 --And.

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#1620
9:14 AM Tue 31 Aug 99
 Subject:  Re: je'e do drani
 From:  Jorge Llambias
From: "Jorge Llambias" jjllambia-@hotmail.com

la xod cusku di'e

>Does "je'e do drani" equal (according to the rules, not the
>parser output) "je'e .i do drani", or "je'e do .i drani"?

The latter. To get the former you'd have to say for
example {je'e do'u do drani}. Vocatives, like je'e,
will absorb the following cmene, sumti or selbri.
To get the bare vocative it is necessary to close
it with do'u, or put it at the end of the bridi.

co'o mi'e xorxes

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