_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: x pronouciation from a french guy
           From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Last chance to nit-pick
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: Lojban and the Turing machine
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      4. Don't be a wimp, get with the Gimp
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      6. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      7. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      8. Re: Lojban and the Turing machine
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      9. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
     10. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     11. Re: x pronunciation from a french guy
           From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
     12. Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in
           From: "Michal Wallace (sabren)" <sabren@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
     13. Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
     14. Re: li18nux.org charter needs lojban version
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
     15. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
     16. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
     17. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
     18. Re: trees?
           From: "Adam Raizen" <araizen@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 12:07:05 -0500
   From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: x pronouciation from a french guy

Paul,
C'est super bien de voir un francophone sur la liste!  Vous ets d'ou ?  Je me suis specialis a l'universit en la langue franaise.  But I'm going to respond in English because I have forgotten much of my French.

"x" is also the symbol used in the Internation Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) for a voiceless velar fricative.  The 2 versions of "c" that you refer to below are really allophones of "k".  There may be a slight difference between them, but most speakers, as far as I know, really consider them the same sound.  The "x" in lojban is sometimes seen romanized as "kh", sometimes "ch" (as in the German pronuciation of Bach) as Bob pointed out.  It is the modern Greek pronunciation of 'chi'.  The "Phonetic Symbol Guide" describes it as sounding a lot like the devoiced French 'r' as in some pronunciations of "lettre".
J'spre que cette explication vous donne une mieux ide du son !

Bob,
the 'q' in Qadaffi represents a uvular "k" sound made deep in the back of the throat.  Gh is a dialetical difference, a voiced fricative in the same place.  Not the same sound at all.
co'o mi'e tomis

> From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx>
>
> At 03:58 AM 10/20/99 -0400, Paul Dufresne wrote:
> >I am beginning to learn Lojban, mainly by studying gismus.
> >But I never feel well when I see an 'x' because I am not sure
> >at all how to pronounce it. I tend to think it is pronounced
> >a bit like the 'k'.
> >Let's take french words in example. For me the 'c' of
> >"canot" would be lojbanize as "kano", and the 'c' of
> >"cougar", would be lojbanize as "xugar".
>
> My wife says that to her knowledge, French does not use the x sound, and no
> French word would Lojbanize as x.  She wasn't aware that "canot" and
> "cougar" would have different initial sounds, though.  Just as English
> speakers (who also do not have an x sound) you have to go to another
> language to get the x sound.  German "ch" as in "Bach" (hopefully you hear
> that as something other than Lojban "bak") is the model I use most
> often.  France having a lot of Arabic speakers can turn to Arabic as a
> model - I believe the Arabic sound Romanized as q is a Lojban x.  The
> voiced equivalent of x in Arabic is often Romanized as "gh", hence the
> spelling of the name of the leader of Libya is sometimes Romanized as
> Qadaffi or Ghadaffi.  The other models we use are the Russian sound
> Romanized as "kh", and the Greek "chi" (which is the reason why we use x > for the sound).
>
> Hope these examples help.
>
> lojbab



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 18:59:36 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Last chance to nit-pick

coi rodo

After a long period of inactivity, I have revised lessons 4-7 of
the beginners' course and linked to them from the contents page.
I've tried to take everyone's suggestions/corrections into
account, but may have overlooked a few.

Any last-minute corrections would be appreciated - I don't plan
to do any further work on these particular lessons, but of course
if there's any really bad Lojban, I'll correct it.

You can visit the lessons from

http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lojbancourse.html

Oh yes, and I've finally got round to pasting in the webring
HTML!

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:00:15 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: Lojban and the Turing machine

la bruk. cusku di'e
>  > =
>  >
>  > LApp app;
>  > app.AddWindow(new LWindow)
>
> Now the programmer's answer is that *this* is much more succinct and
> legible. So what did you gain by using lojban? lojban is a full human
> language - that means it is incredibly rich. Using it to duplicate C++
> functionality seems like using a Steyr AUG assault rifle as a
> flyswatter.  Yeah, you can do it, but your bare hand works better.

Yes, unless you're someone like me who knows a bit of Lojban but
virutally no C++ (I bought the "C++ in 10 minutes" book several
months ago, and still haven't got further than "Hello World").
As someone who wrote their last program 15 years ago, I'd really
appreciate either a Lojban programming language or a Lojban
"front-end" to an existing language.

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:13:15 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Don't be a wimp, get with the Gimp

Re comments that the Lojban logo looks kind of wimpy ....

> > >   Finally: is the flag/logo really working? I hunted it down to put on
> > > the lojban website that I'm making... And decided against it.
> >
> > It looks good printed on the cover of the reference grammer IMHO. In
> > fact, the reference grammer is a damn fine book both in usefulness and
> > in quality.
> >
> > Perhaps it's the bitmap quality or the way it appears on a web page
> > that's the problem?
>
> Well, now that I understand what the symbol means, I like it a little
> better.. but I stil think it looks a little weak, with all the thin
> lines. (I haven't seen the cover to the book)

Get a good image manipulation program like the Gimp or Photoshop
and play around with it.  An example I just made for fun is

http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lojban.jpg

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:56:19 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx>
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

la xorxes. cusku di'e
>
> la pycyn cusku di'e
>
> >Masses have the *logical* sum of the properties of their members, according
> >to one standard view.  In the case of weight, this amounts to the
> >arithmetic sum, in most non-numerical cases it is the disjunction. On that
> >view, a mass of three dogs would bite a mass of two men if one of the dogs
> >bit one of the men -- though we do need to know how/why they sets were
> >massified.
>
> Yes, that makes sense. That at least one of the dogs bites
> at least one of the men would be a necessary condition
> for our description, but not sufficient. There would also
> have to be a reason for taking the dogs as a unit and the
> men as another unit.
>
This is also the way I look at it.  I conceptualise Lojban masses
like units in strategy games, so if the archers fire at the
spearmen, it doesn't need to be the case that every archer needs
to fire an arrow at every (or any) spearman.  Incidentally, in my
course I explain {lu'o} and {lu'i} by analogy to the "group" and
"ungroup" commands.

> In any case, that would be a more common situation than
> the perfectly coordinated full distribution of bites.

You bet!

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:10:27 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

>  > > mi pendo le mi glependo - "my fuckbuddy is my friend."
>  > > mi pamypendo - "I have a loving friend." (or more than one - not
>  > >                specific)
>
>  > More accurately, "I'm my fuckbuddy's friend",
>
> Yep - I translated it to more idiomatic English - maybe I should have
> used:
>
> le mi glependo cu pendo mi
> mi se pendo le mi glependo
>
> which, come to think of it, are almost tautologies (switching to "lo"
> and they would be). But would I describe someone as "le pendo goi ko'a"
> if it wasn't the case that "ko'a pendo mi"?

>  > not that it particularly makes a difference in most contexts--but
>  > "pendo" could theoretically also cover someone acting like your friend
>  > even though you hate their guts.
>
> So question: If each lojban gismu has only one definition, which is
> the definition for "pendo"?
>
> x1 is a friend to x2
>
> or
>
> x1 acts like a friend to x2
>
> The def I have in front of me says
>
> x1 is|acts like a friend to x2
>
> but it seems to me to be covering two distinctly different truth
> statements - one is about a property (being a friend) while the other
> is about behavior (acting like a friend, whether you are or not).  Or
> is pendo inclusive? With abstraction allowing for more specificity?
> Like "ka pendo" for the "is" version?

Good question. It would seem to me that "acts like a friend" ought to be a
tanru...

>  > > ko malype'o mi - Fuck me, dammit
>  > > ko malypendo mi - [same]
>  > Not malgletu?
>
> D'oh!
>
>  > no'i Both of those would be better expressed using attitudinals, e.g.
>  >
>  > le'o ro'u ko gletu mi
>  > [aggresive] [sexual] Fuck me!
>
> But I see that as the speaker being aggressive, whereas "Fuck me!" (in
> a sexual situation) is usually construed as a more submissive request
> - demanding that something obscene be done to the speaker.

Okay, I see. The "dammit" threw me off a bit.

> And this
> version doesn't have the "dirtiness" of "malgletu" - "gletu" is more
> neutral, e.g., "copulate".  It isn't necessarily "dirty talk."

.i'a

>
>  > or
>  >
>  > .o'onai ko .ionai gletu mi
>  > [anger] [you-imperative] [disrespect] fuck me
>  > Fuck me, you whore!
>
> Yes, but again, it could also mean:
>
> Argh! You trash, copulate with me.
>
> or more "idiomatically":
> Argh! Have sex with me, you trash!
>
> I think .ionairo'u would be more of the sense of "whore," or maybe
> "slut" or "dick," or somesuch (but no particular gender bias anywhere
> - a nice change).

Swearing in Lojban is so much *fun* :)!
In any case, I didn't intend to particularly signify "whore" with
".ionai", it's just that it seemed like a better translation, what with
the context.


	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:47:11 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments


la xod cusku di'e

>The Lojban bridi is a statement made "from infinity", a clear description
>of fact from a 3rd party perspective. All Lojban utterances are this way,
>except ones with prenexes containing terms of different "scope"! Those are
>the only bridi that violate that fact that "da broda de" implies "de se
>broda da".

"da broda de" does mean the same as "de se broda da",
they mean the same as "da de zo'u da broda de" or
"de da zo'u da broda de". Remember that the default
quantifier for da is su'o (at least one), and the
order of two variables quantified by su'o is
always irrelevant.

But "ro da broda de" is not the same as
"de se broda ro da". The first one is
"ro da de zo'u da broda de", and the second one
is "de ro da zo'u da broda de".

What you are arguing is that they both should mean
"de ro da zo'u da broda de". In other words, you
want that when the variables are not explicitly
quatified in the prenex, their quantification
should be existentials first, universals second.

That was a possible way of choosing how to
interpret sentences without an explicit prenex,
but it is not what was decided. The chosen
interpretation was to export to the prenex
in the same order that the quantifiers appear
in the sentence. The advantage of this is that
you don't have to use the prenex as often as
you would with the other scheme.

>This is an affront to my Lojbanic intuition and aesthetic.

I know the feeling. I don't agree with you about
this particular affront, but lots of other times
I have argued along those lines, usually (but not
always) unsuccessfully.

>Consider an alternative scheme: mappings.
>
>The prenex is constructed like: (set definition 1) (mapping) (set
>definition 2) (mapping) ... (set definition m) zo'u bridi
>
>where a set definition is a da poi phrase, and a mapping
>specifies the topology of the relationship between the sets, such as 1:1,
>cross product, at least one, unknown, etc.

What you call mapping, at least in some cases, is the
job of the quantifier. The quantifier is not a part
of the set definition.

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:21:51 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: Lojban and the Turing machine


>  > > Lojban texts are parsable, and it should at least be possible to
>  > > formulate computer programs in some lojban-compatible syntax.
>  >
>  > I was working on exactly that a while back... it never got
>  > anywhere, but if anyone's interested, maybe it could.
>
> I'm interested but for a different reason - spoken programming. I
> suspect that speech recognition with lojban could be more accurate
> than with English as well as faster. lojban sounds different enough
> that you may even be able to automatically extract it from the speech
> stream.  What's the result?
>
> You can speak in English freely, but the computer is always
> listening. It recognizes commands without a special command flag
> ("Computer, blow up the Klingons"). And best of all, the semantics are
> substantially simpler. Each sentence means one thing and one thing
> only (that thing may itself be vague or abstract, but that's different
> from needing to decide among several possibly contradictory
> meanings and *then* dealing with vagueness or abstraction).
>
>  > The annoying thing about writing a program in Lojban would normally be all
>  > the "ko"s and especially "ko gasnu le nu"s.
>
> Not all the "ko"'s would come at the beginning, even in an imperative
> style of programming.  Trivially:
>
> le darcu cu se gasnu ko -- just swap x1 and x2 places
>                         -- the file, cause it to be!

Yes, but regardless of where they are, there'd be a lot of 'em. I for one
would like as little repetition as is reasonably possible.

>
> But what about database queries?
>
> ta'i ma do gasnu le darcu -- by what method do you cause the file?
>                           -- How did you make the file?
> ma gasnu le darcu         -- Who made the file? Who caused the file?

Hey, cool :)

>  > My idea was, rather than
>  > thinking of it in terms of ordering the computer to do something, you're
>  > describing a world that the computer tries to imitate... it would look
>
> Though it's not quite what you're suggesting below, there's the
> declarative programming approach (typified by Prolog). The programmer
> does not tell the computer how to do something, just what is to be
> done.  For example, code for a fibonacci number in Haskell (while
> Haskell is often called "functional", its nature makes it easy to be
> declarative):
>
> fib 0     = 0
> fib 1     = 1
> fib (n+2) = fib n + fib (n+1)
>
> If you look at a math textbook definition, it looks essentially the
> same - except you can typeset it better in a book.  Describe fibonacci
> numbers in lojban and you get something similar, only readable aloud:
>
>    le noboi pamoi la fibnatcis. -- Zero is first among the fibonacci
> .i le paboi remoi la fibnatcis. -- One is second
> .i la nyso'iremai fibnatcis. du le nyso'ipamai fibnatcis. so'i le
>       nymai fibnatcis. -- The (n+2)th fibonacci equals the (n+1)th
>                        -- fibonacci plus the n'th fibonacci.
>
> Note that lojban's lack of ambiguity gives you a positional freedom
> not usually found in programming languages. Since "la" is a name, we
> know we're talking (implicitly) about a declaration.  If we've seen
> the name before, we're continuing the description, statement,
> whatever.  And this isn't even using lojban's built-in variable
> assignment system.
>
>  > something like this, only with better class names:
>
>  > la .ap. cu ly'apra
>  > i le bi'u ly'uindo cu ly'uindo la .ap.
>
> Better class names indeed - if you're going to use lojban, I can't see
> much point to prefixing things with letterals.  That trick is for
> dealing with old programming languages that don't have modules or some
> other sort of name scoping/renaming possibilities.  lojban can be
> unambiguous with its name referents - so use that capability.
>
>  > =
>  >
>  > App is-an-instance-of-LApp
>  > the newly-introduced LWindow is-an-LWindow-belonging-to App
>
> By using a fu'ivla ("uindo"), you're effectively creating new words
> with their own place structure, aren't you?  That doesn't seem like
> such a great idea, as memorizing place structure seems to be a real
> pain. This is like memorizing argument order when learning a new
> library in programming - with bigger libraries, even experts will sit
> down with all the reference manuals next to them.
>
> Note that people that *write* don't usually need to keep a dictionary
> right on their desk.
>
>  > =
>  >
>  > LApp app;
>  > app.AddWindow(new LWindow)
>
> Now the programmer's answer is that *this* is much more succinct and
> legible. So what did you gain by using lojban? lojban is a full human
> language - that means it is incredibly rich. Using it to duplicate C++
> functionality seems like using a Steyr AUG assault rifle as a
> flyswatter.  Yeah, you can do it, but your bare hand works better.

:)
Re all of the above: I completely agree. As I said, I never went very far
with this.

> But let's look at existing lojban words: mupli and mu'u.
>
> Mupli is a gismu meaning x1 is an example with common property X2 of
> set x3.  In c++ terms, an obvious programming semantics is:
>
> X3 x1(x2); // new variable called x1 of class X3, with initialization
>            // params x2

Following what I came up with, it doesn't even have to be a new
variable--you could add a property to an existing object or variable using
just "x1 mupli x2".

> mu'u is a cmavo meaning "exemplified by", which suggests x1 mu'u x2 is
> equivalent to "X2 x1;"
>
>
> Even this strikes me as throwing good stuff (lojban) after bad
> (C++). I think lojban can do better.

.ie, but what kinds of things might we do with it, aside from the database
queries? I had thought of protocol definitions, something along the lines
of

le telmrilu ritli
.i do jorne le telmrilu samselfu goi ko'a
.i do benji zoi my.USER .my. ce'o le cmene
.i ko'a benji
	zoi my.+OK.my. .abo zoi my.-ERR.my.
	ce'o lo selcusku

=

The Mail-Receiving Rite [POP3]
You connect to the mail-receiving server.
You send "USER " then the name.
It sends ("+OK" or "-ERR") then any utterance.

	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:43:40 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments


la xorxes. pu ciska di'e

> But "ro da broda de" is not the same as
> "de se broda ro da". The first one is
> "ro da de zo'u da broda de", and the second one
> is "de ro da zo'u da broda de".
>
> What you are arguing is that they both should mean
> "de ro da zo'u da broda de". In other words, you
> want that when the variables are not explicitly
> quatified in the prenex, their quantification
> should be existentials first, universals second.

I should let xod speak for hirself, but I had gathered that actually what
was intended was that they both should mean "de ro da zo'u da broda de
.ije ro da de zo'u da broda de", and that both of *those* bridi mean the
same thing as well. The current meaning of "de ro da zo'u da broda de"
would be expressed using a mapping cmavo between de and ro da.

Or maybe I misunderstood completely :).

	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 16:06:00 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments


la xarmuj cusku di'e

>I should let xod speak for hirself, but I had gathered that actually what
>was intended was that they both should mean "de ro da zo'u da broda de .ije
>ro da de zo'u da broda de",

The first one entails the second, so the second doesn't
add anything.

>and that both of *those* bridi mean the
>same thing as well.

I thought he admitted differences of scope by order
of appearance as long as they were explicited in
the prenex.

>The current meaning of "de ro da zo'u da broda de"
>would be expressed using a mapping cmavo between de and ro da.

The current meaning of "de ro da zo'u" is the one
he wants to keep. The one he argues with is
"ro da de zo'u".

>Or maybe I misunderstood completely :).

Or maybe I did. :)

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:11:01 EST
   From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: x pronunciation from a french guy

In a message dated 10/31/1999 10:57:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx writes:

> I believe the Arabic sound Romanized as q is a Lojban x.  The
>  voiced equivalent of x in Arabic is often Romanized as "gh", hence the
>  spelling of the name of the leader of Libya is sometimes Romanized as
>  Qadaffi or Ghadaffi.

The Arabic letter qaaf , the 21st letter of the Arabic alphabet, has a
variable pronunciation depending on dialect, but it is usually transliterated
as 'q'.  Most good English dictionaries have a table of alphabets under
'alphabet' that shows Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Greek, and sometimes
Sanskrit/Devanagari. Anyway, the Arabic letter to use as a model for Lojban
'x' would be khaa, the 7th letter, and it's transliteration is 'kh', distinct
from 'q', 'k', 'h', '(dotted) h', "`", and 'gh'.
It's nice, and I'm sure no coincidence, that Lojban 'x' has the sound of the
IPA /x/.

Steven Lytle


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:24:52 -0500 (EST)
   From: "Michal Wallace (sabren)" <sabren@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in

On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:

> >There is some kind of magical trick
> >to this process that ensures that no two lojban words are ever the same.
>
> Not magical, but admittedly a little more complicated
> than it need have been.

Having read a bit more... I think it makes a lot of sense..
I'm still not clear whether all gismu have the same patterns for
their rafsi or not. Given a gismu you've never seen, should you
be able to tell the rafsi?

> Yes, please do! For example, someone just asked for the
> meaning of {ta'u}. I would love to be able to do a search
> to find out how many times {ta'u} has been used (if ever)
> and with which of the two alternative meanings. We have
> a pretty large corpus of Lojban text by now, but, as you say,
> very difficult to use.

I'll see what I can do..

> We're probably stuck with it as the official logo, but nothing
> stops you or anyone else from creating and using a better
> one, and if it catches on, it will become the unofficial logo...

:) I don't know if it's any better, but I put a flag for an imaginary
country I made up for a story a few years ago on my lojban site.. I
kind of like the story behind the venn diagram and the arrows,
though.

Cheers,

- Michal
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.manifestation.com/         http://www.linkwatcher.com/metalog/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 13
   Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:12:03 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in


>I'm still not clear whether all gismu have the same patterns for
>their rafsi or not. Given a gismu you've never seen, should you
>be able to tell the rafsi?

You can't tell the three letter rafsi. Every gismu
has a combining form made of its four first letters + y
for non-final positions, and a five letter combining
form which is the gismu itself for final position.
The short rafsi are made of three letters of the gismu,
but not all gismu have short rafsi, some have
more than one (up to three) and which three letters
conform it is not decided completely algorithmically,
there's only some restrictions as to which ones they
can be.

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 14
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:29:33 -0500 (EST)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: li18nux.org charter needs lojban version

I don't understand why that was just "posted" to you all; I sent that on
24 Oct 99!

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 15
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:46:45 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

At 10:40 AM -0500 10/31/99, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote:


>To somewhere, via some route, goes everyone. (stolen from a Book chapter
>title)
>vs
>Everyone goes somewhere via some route.
>
>In both of these sentences, "everyone" is the subject, but in the first,
>"everyone" does not have scope precedence.


The former sentence can easily be interpreted as the second; that everyone
goes someplace, but all those someplaces are not necessarily the same
place. So I think they can be read as having the same scope.


>That you find ordered scope an affront is something I can understand; I
>felt the same way, having mastered the symmetry of SE conversion, when
>scope reared its ugly head and spoiled that symmetry.


Thanks! I wasn't sure if I was completely out of line.


>But the bottom line question is what you would have
>
>roda prami de
>and
>de se prami roda
>
>mean.
>
>You have to choose meanings for both of these sentences, and they can
>either mean the same thing or two different things.  The status quo using
>logical scope is that they mean different things.  If you decide based on
>symmetry that they must mean the same thing, then you still have a scope
>issue in deciding whether x1 or x2 takes precedence.


If, by default, de refers to a single entity, and not a different entity
for each da in ro da, then we have symmetry.

"Everybody loves Jake." Thus, "Jake is loved by everybody." A mapping that
maps each da to its own de could (and I think, should) be explicitly
specified.


If you decide that
>ordering is based on place number, both mean "Everybody loves
>somebody".  Let us hypothetically accept this.  Now what about "de selprami
>roda".  By turning the tanru into a lujvo, the se conversion becomes
>implicit and the place numbers x1 x2 are no longer as if it were a
>conversion.  (You can try to keep numbering them in the order of "prami",
>but this just makes confusion when you make even larger lujvo especially
>those with more than one gismu being converted.)  Sooner or later something
>breaks.  Alas.  Symmetry fails.


I'm afraid I don't see how the symmetry can be broken by making a lujvo
with reordered places.

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 16
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 01:51:32 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

At 2:47 PM -0800 10/31/99, Jorge Llambias wrote:
>From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>

>What you are arguing is that they both should mean
>"de ro da zo'u da broda de". In other words, you
>want that when the variables are not explicitly
>quatified in the prenex, their quantification
>should be existentials first, universals second.

That's not quite what I am suggesting. Let me know if the post I sent a few
minutes prior to this isn't clear enough.



>What you call mapping, at least in some cases, is the
>job of the quantifier. The quantifier is not a part
>of the set definition.

Isn't it? What if I say "let set A include all the dogs that bark at
night", or "let set B be 3 fast cars".




-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 17
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 00:11:37 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

la xorxes. pu ciska di'e

> la xarmuj cusku di'e
>
> >I should let xod speak for hirself, but I had gathered that actually what
> >was intended was that they both should mean "de ro da zo'u da broda de .ije
> >ro da de zo'u da broda de",
>
> The first one entails the second, so the second doesn't
> add anything.

.o'anai! I knew that!

> >and that both of *those* bridi mean the
> >same thing as well.
>
> I thought he admitted differences of scope by order
> of appearance as long as they were explicited in
> the prenex.

This would be where we *actually* disagree. I'm sure xod can tell us which
is right :).

> >The current meaning of "de ro da zo'u da broda de"
> >would be expressed using a mapping cmavo between de and ro da.
>
> The current meaning of "de ro da zo'u" is the one
> he wants to keep. The one he argues with is
> "ro da de zo'u".

.ie I think I got "de ro da" and "ro da de" mixed up for some reason... So
what I *meant* to say was that the current meaning of "ro da de zo'u"
would be expressed with a mapping. I think I'll shut up now :).


	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 18
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:18:09 +0200
   From: "Adam Raizen" <araizen@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Re: trees?

Michal Wallace (sabren) wrote:

> xod's idea about the computer-specific list of words got me
> thinking... I have on my bookshelf one of the coolest books ever
> created: Stephen Glazier's "Word Menu". It's like a dictionary, but
> grouped by subject, much like yahoo is for websites.
>
> (see http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.cgi?isbn=0345414411 )
>
> Anyway, I want to start reindexing the lojban dictionary this way.
> I don't know what to call it though!
>
> some gismu look promising:
>
>    liste (list)
>    girzu (group)
>    jutsi (species/relationship between two layers of hierarchy)
>    lanzu (family/clan)
>
>
> so:
>
>    valjut ?
>    valsi liste ?
>    valsi lanzu ?
>

How about jutste (jutsi liste)

I wrote a python module that takes the official gi'uste and adds
hyperlinks to the lojban words (the cross-references and
examples). This is probably not exactly what you're looking for, but
it's a start.

You can find it at:
	http://users.aol.com/raizen311/index.html

> I also thought about tricu, which is a "tree".. but after reading
> the comment in the grammar about "social buterflies" always being
> actual insects in lojban, I'd guess a {valsi tricu} would be a
> one of those trees that someone carved their name in...
>
> Any thoughts?
>

That type of a tree is a jutsi or a ka jutsi in Lojban.

co'o mi'e adam


Adam Raizen
araizen@xxxxxxx.xxx
------------------------------------------------------------
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force!
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
                                         --George Washington


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 10 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: x pronunciation from a french guy
           From: "Ben Webster" <bwebste@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
      6. Re: x pronunciation from a french guy
           From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@xxxx.xxx.xxx
      7. Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      8. Re: x pronunciation from a french guy
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      9. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: nellardo@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
     10. Re: Lojban and the Turing machine
           From: nellardo@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 07:46:18 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments


> >What you call mapping, at least in some cases, is the
> >job of the quantifier. The quantifier is not a part
> >of the set definition.
>
>Isn't it? What if I say "let set A include all the dogs that bark at
>night",

The set of dogs that bark at night does include all dogs
that bark at night. Every set includes all of its members,
so "all" doesn't really add anything to the definition.

>or "let set B be 3 fast cars".

That doesn't define set B, there are many sets of 3 fast
cars.

In any case, what exactly are you proposing? How would
you say "Everybody loves somebody" in your version of
Lojban? Do you need an extension of the grammar?
Would you introduce a whole class of new cmavo to
cover the mappings? Would it be an open class?
You only gave a few examples of possible mappings,
but there are an infinite number of them, right?
Is there something that you could do with those that
can't be done with Lojban as is?

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:31:30 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in

"Michal Wallace (sabren)" wrote:

> Given a gismu you've never seen, should you
> be able to tell the rafsi?

Sort of.  For each gismu, there are at most seven possible
rafsi for it, of which zero, one, two, or (in rare cases) three
are actually assigned to it.  Furthermore, if you know the rafsi
for some phonetically similar gismu, you can often rule out many or
all of the possibilities, because you already know that those rafsi
are assigned to other gismu.

But just looking at a gismu and knowing the rafsi, no.

--

John Cowan	http://www.reutershealth.com		jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies / Schliess eurer Aug vor heiliger Schau
Den er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
		-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:17:57
   From: "Ben Webster" <bwebste@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: x pronunciation from a french guy

On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:11:01 EST,
BestATN@xxx.xxx wrote...
>From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
>
>In a message dated 10/31/1999 10:57:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx writes:
>
>> I believe the Arabic sound Romanized as q is a Lojban x.  The
>>  voiced equivalent of x in Arabic is often Romanized as "gh", hence the
>>  spelling of the name of the leader of Libya is sometimes Romanized as
>>  Qadaffi or Ghadaffi.
>
>The Arabic letter qaaf , the 21st letter of the Arabic alphabet, has a
>variable pronunciation depending on dialect, but it is usually
>transliterated
>as 'q'.

The Modern Standard pronunciation of 'qaaf' is an uvular or back velar
voiceless stop.  Basically a 'k', with your tongue shoved even further back.
 It sounds a lot like a 'k' to an English speaker.
My Arabic teacher told me that it is sometimes pronounced more like an "h"
in the middle East.  (yippee! yet another "h"-like sound in Arabic). I think
what's causing the confusion, but that is not to be confused with "ghain",
which sounds like a french "r", and sadly does not exist Lojban.

>Most good English dictionaries have a table of alphabets under
>'alphabet' that shows Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, Greek, and sometimes
>Sanskrit/Devanagari. Anyway, the Arabic letter to use as a model for Lojban
>'x' would be khaa, the 7th letter, and it's transliteration is 'kh',
>distinct
>from 'q', 'k', 'h', '(dotted) h', "`", and 'gh'.

Any ideas about what to do with wierd Arabic sounds ("`ain", "ghain",
"qaaf") when Lojbanizing?  The best I can come up with is to use . for `ain,
r (or x) for ghain and k for qaaf.  Also, what about emphatic letters?  If
you just collapse them into the normal stops an fricatives, dal, dhal,
d.aad, and d.ha would all just become d.





_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:25:28 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in

At 07:24 PM 10/31/99 -0500, Michal Wallace (sabren) wrote:
>From: "Michal Wallace (sabren)" <sabren@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
>On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Jorge Llambias wrote:
>
> > >There is some kind of magical trick
> > >to this process that ensures that no two lojban words are ever the same.
> >
> > Not magical, but admittedly a little more complicated
> > than it need have been.
>
>Having read a bit more... I think it makes a lot of sense..
>I'm still not clear whether all gismu have the same patterns for
>their rafsi or not. Given a gismu you've never seen, should you
>be able to tell the rafsi?

Not precisely.  You will know the set of all possible rafsi that could be
used.  You know that no rafsi is used for more than one gismu, but that we
try to use all rafsi for something if it is plausible that they stand for
something.  You also know that no gismu has more than one of each of the
three possible forms CVC CVV and CCV.  Given these rules, the more rafsi
you know definitively, the more likely you will be sure what the rafsi are
for a gismu you newly study.

Example:  klama  has the possible rafsi determined by its word form of
kam, lam, ka'a, la'a, and kla.  No others are possible.  If you know
already that kam is the rafsi for cmavo ka, ka'a the rafsi for katna, la'a
for lasna, and lam for lamji, then you know that klama could only have
kla.  It turns out that there are 6 other words that could have been
assigned "kla", but klama is clearly the most frequent of these (and has no
other short rafsi) so it gets the rafsi.

This logic sounds a little convoluted for a single gismu, but you find that
after you know maybe 20% of the rafsi, you seem to be able to guess with
80-90% accuracy what the rafsi will be for a given gismu.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:48:59 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

At 7:46 AM -0800 11/1/99, Jorge Llambias wrote:

>>or "let set B be 3 fast cars".
>
>That doesn't define set B, there are many sets of 3 fast
>cars.


How about "the 3 fastest cars running today"?


>In any case, what exactly are you proposing? How would
>you say "Everybody loves somebody" in your version of
>Lojban? Do you need an extension of the grammar?
>Would you introduce a whole class of new cmavo to
>cover the mappings? Would it be an open class?
>You only gave a few examples of possible mappings,
>but there are an infinite number of them, right?
>Is there something that you could do with those that
>can't be done with Lojban as is?


What do you mean when you say  "Everybody loves somebody"? Do you mean that
each person in "everybody" loves their own "somebody", which may or may not
be the same person as is loved by another person in "everybody"? Or do you
mean that everybody loves person X?

pc says we have the whole of Set Theory at our disposal in Lojban. I wonder
what he meant by that. If that's the case, perhaps what I suggest is
trivial.

I haven't yet worked out all the implications of what I am suggesting. Is a
cross product mapping currently possible? Or a 1:1? So currently I see that
there are no or very limited ways to describe mappings within the prenex,
and that the default mapping is sufficiently nontrivial as to break SE
symmetry.

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:01:44 -0800
   From: Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@xxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: x pronunciation from a french guy

Ben Webster wrote:
> The Modern Standard pronunciation of 'qaaf' is an uvular or back
> velar voiceless stop.  Basically a 'k', with your tongue shoved
> even further back.  It sounds a lot like a 'k' to an English speaker.

Whereas an English /k/ can sound like /k/ or /q/ to an Arabic
speaker, depending on the adjacent vowels.

> My Arabic teacher told me that it is sometimes pronounced more
> like an "h" in the middle East.

Like a glottal stop, to be precise.  Like a hamza, in other words.

> Any ideas about what to do with wierd Arabic sounds ("`ain",
> "ghain", "qaaf") when Lojbanizing?

(Weird?  I thought English had the weirdest sound system.)

I would advise following the example of Persian, Turkish etc., which
have a long and glorious tradition of borrowing from Arabic into more
European-like sound systems: <`> becomes a glottal stop, <_t> and <.s>
both become {s}, <_d>, <.d> and <.z> all become {z} (though there might
be a case for mapping <_t> to {t} and <_d> to {d}), etc.  <.g> probably
should become {g}, since nothing else has to.

--
`Three-quarters of what the opposition says about us is lies
 and the other half is without any foundation in truth.'
     (Sir Boyle Roche, from _The Book of Irish Bull_ by Des MacHale)
Ivan A Derzhanski                     <http://www.math.bas.bg/~iad/>
H: cplx Iztok bl 91, 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria          <iad@xxxx.xxx.xx>
W: Dept for Math Lx, Inst for Maths & CompSci, Bulg Acad of Sciences


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:00:49 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lojban newbie: an outsider looking in

John Cowan wrote:

>
> But just looking at a gismu and knowing the rafsi, no.
>

If you could guess the rafsi from the gismu, this would mean each
gismu had one unique rafsi, in which case we could have dispensed
with gismu and only used rafsi (something like Dutton
Speedwords!).

More practically - you can't guess rafsi from gismu, but you can
often guess gismu from rafsi with a lujvo and a bit of context,
which I think is the idea.


co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:04:38 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: x pronunciation from a french guy

la ben. cusku di'e

> My Arabic teacher told me that it is sometimes pronounced more like an "h"
> in the middle East.  (yippee! yet another "h"-like sound in Arabic). I think
> what's causing the confusion, but that is not to be confused with "ghain",
> which sounds like a french "r", and sadly does not exist Lojban.

"Sadly"? .u'i

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Mon,  1 Nov 1999 19:52:53 -0500 (EST)
   From: nellardo@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx writes:
 > > So question: If each lojban gismu has only one definition, which is
 > > the definition for "pendo"?
 > >
 > > x1 is a friend to x2
 > >
 > > or
 > >
 > > x1 acts like a friend to x2

[...]

 > Good question. It would seem to me that "acts like a friend" ought to be a
 > tanru...

Lojbab? John? Comments? What's the "correct" definition of "pendo" -
is, acts, or both?

Hmm, this should be another thread, but what is the metaphysics of
lojban?  Relativist (acts like)? Absolutist (is)?  "Agnostic" (both)?

 > > I think .ionairo'u would be more of the sense of "whore," or maybe
 > > "slut" or "dick," or somesuch (but no particular gender bias anywhere
 > > - a nice change).
 >
 > Swearing in Lojban is so much *fun* :)!

Yes, well, despite this thread starting on relationships, we've gotten
into insults :-)

 > In any case, I didn't intend to particularly signify "whore" with
 > ".ionai", it's just that it seemed like a better translation, what with
 > the context.

My thinking is that .ionai lacks the sexual content of "whore" - could
be translated as "asshole" or "jerk" or "bonehead".

co'o mi'e brukcr.

---------
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.

---------
Fancy. Myth. Magic.
http://www.concentric.net/~nellardo/


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Mon,  1 Nov 1999 19:34:46 -0500 (EST)
   From: nellardo@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Lojban and the Turing machine

la gi'o .kuot. Robin Turner .kuot. cusku di'e:
 > la bruk. cusku di'e
 > >  > =
 > >  >
 > >  > LApp app;
 > >  > app.AddWindow(new LWindow)
 > >
 > > Now the programmer's answer is that *this* is much more succinct and
 > > legible. So what did you gain by using lojban? lojban is a full human
 > > language - that means it is incredibly rich. Using it to duplicate C++
 > > functionality seems like using a Steyr AUG assault rifle as a
 > > flyswatter.  Yeah, you can do it, but your bare hand works better.
 >
 > Yes, unless you're someone like me who knows a bit of Lojban but
 > virutally no C++ (I bought the "C++ in 10 minutes" book several
 > months ago, and still haven't got further than "Hello World").
 > As someone who wrote their last program 15 years ago, I'd really
 > appreciate either a Lojban programming language or a Lojban
 > "front-end" to an existing language.

Of course, Robin, you're almost certainly atypical :-)

Now, with the "bare hand works better" crack, I did not mean to
suggest C++ is a better programming language that lojban.  First of
all, lojban is not a programming language - it has no
computer-executable semantics (someone, please please correct me if I
am wrong).  Second of all, C++ is a better programming language than
very few other programming languages: C, assembler (what's the
difference? One's an ANSI standard with a more complex syntax), and
machine language come to mind.  But that's about it.

Now, another point I'd like to make is that different programming
languages are best suited for different things. Unfortunately, C is
pretty well suited to writing device drivers - you want to write that,
C is pretty much it.  If you want to do complex scheduling
optimizations, various constraint-logic programming languages work
exceedingly well - a page and a half for something that would be
thousands of lines of C++.

So, the executable semantics of lojban.....

First of all, what is lojban good for? In a semantics sense, I mean.
Clearly, device drivers aren't quite lojban's forte, but then neither
is scheduling optimization.  Some things that come to mind:

System integration: Here, lojban's descriptive power lets you say what
different components can do (and *only* that), and it's extensive
quoting facilities make it easier to import foreign code if necessary
(".kuot." not being a likely string in any programming language with
exception of a lojban parser....).

Certain kinds of scientific problems.  Describing lab results,
inferring conclusions.

Automatic algorithm discovery. Again, lojban's quoting power is
useful, but in different ways. It makes it easier to talk about your
own discourse clearly - i.e., the code can talk (and reason) about
itself.

Genetic programming. See previous. Also set description, mathematical
expressions (for fitness calculations).

So what does this mean for the executable semantics?  Not quite sure
yet. That's going to need some more thought.  Obvious ones:

First use of a name implicitly creates an entity to be reasoned about.

Pro-bridi and pro-sumti usage have obvious scoping (already part of
the language).

.i and ni'o and the like form a very basic structuring.

It will be necessary to define a subset of gismu that are the
"primitive" gismu - other gismu, lujvo, and tanru are defined in terms
of those "primitive" gismu.

What to do about many "real world" gismu will be an interesting
question. For example, "blanu" - does it make sense?  Clearly not
always (or at least not obviously):

le xalbo blanu

The-thing-which-is-really-levity is blue.

I think this suggests a converser model, if you will. The "lojban
virtual machine" is conceptually a person, an agent, really, with some
knowledge about the real world (as well as cyberspace, of course).

Thougts?  What's been done in this area before?

co'o mi'e brukcr.

---------
COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup and Press Any Key

---------
Fancy. Myth. Magic.
http://www.concentric.net/~nellardo/


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. UNL symposium
           From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
      6. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 06:49:48 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 3 dogs, 2 men, many arguments

la xod cusku di'e

>How about "the 3 fastest cars running today"?

If you mean that there were exactly 3 cars equally fast,
and they were all faster than all others, then the 3 is
incidental information. This corresponds to Lojbans
so called "inner quantifiers": {le ci sutrai karce}.
The number doesn't define the set, it only tells you
how many members the set has.

If you mean the fastest, second fastest and third fastest,
then it is not the case that each car is a fastest car,
so the definition in Lojban will not follow the English
idiom.

Of course you can use numbers as part of a definition
of a set. All I'm saying is that the numbers used as quantifiers
in Lojban are not being used to define a set in the way
you propose. {ci gerku} or {ci da poi gerku} by itself does
not define a set, it only selects three members of the set
of all dogs. The part that defines the set is what comes
after {poi}, not the quantifier.

>What do you mean when you say  "Everybody loves somebody"? >Do you mean
>that each person in "everybody" loves their own "somebody", which may or
>may not
>be the same person as is loved by another person in "everybody"?

Yes, you know that's what I mean. That is the meaning that
would be hard to say with your scheme.

>pc says we have the whole of Set Theory at our disposal in Lojban. I wonder
>what he meant by that. If that's the case, perhaps what I suggest is
>trivial.

I don't know. Set Theory is available in any language, including
Lojban of course. Perhaps an actual example written in Lojban
might be helpful.

>I haven't yet worked out all the implications of what I am suggesting. Is a
>cross product mapping currently possible?

Do you mean for example:

      le ci gerku cu batci le re nanmu
      Each of the three dogs bites each of the two men.

>Or a 1:1?

This one is harder. We can say:

      le ci gerku cu batci le ri ponse
      Each of the three dogs bites its owner.

but there is nothing there to stop some or all of the dogs
from having the same owner.

>So currently I see that
>there are no or very limited ways to describe mappings within the prenex,
>and that the default mapping is sufficiently nontrivial as to break SE
>symmetry.

I don't know what to say. The scope of quantifiers is an
important issue. You haven't shown how you would handle
it if it's not to be by their order of appearance.

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:11:01 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

la bruk. cusku di'e

>  > > So question: If each lojban gismu has only one definition, which is
>  > > the definition for "pendo"?
>  > >
>  > > x1 is a friend to x2
>  > >
>  > > or
>  > >
>  > > x1 acts like a friend to x2
>
> [...]
>
>  > Good question. It would seem to me that "acts like a friend" ought to be a
>  > tanru...
>
> Lojbab? John? Comments? What's the "correct" definition of "pendo" -
> is, acts, or both?
>
> Hmm, this should be another thread, but what is the metaphysics of
> lojban?  Relativist (acts like)? Absolutist (is)?  "Agnostic" (both)?


Tricky, since "friend" is culture-specific.  Turkish "arkadas^"
is more like "acts-like" whereas "dost" is definitely "is".  A
prototypical arkadas^ both acts in a friendly way and feels
strong affection, while a peripheral arkadas^ is just someone you
interact with in some way e.g. evarkadas^ = "house-mate", leading
one of my students to mistranslate

* I do not like my house friend.

I'd suggest we define {pendo} as "x1 feels affection for x2 AND
x1 regularly interacts with x2".  So "is a friend to" is fine,
but "acts like a friend" should be "acts as a friend", since the
English "acts like" has connotations of deceit, and it would be
illogical to include deceit in the same definition.  We wouldn't,
for example, define {pulji}

x1 is a policeman/woman; x1 acts like (but is not) a
policeman/woman

This example makes it clear that the question is not really
metaphysical. "Being ordained by some official body to enforce
the law" is a defining feature of "police", whereas "wearing a
blue uniform" is simply a typical feature.  To use {pulji} for
someone who wears a blue uniform, helps old ladies across the
road or makes a citizens' arrest would require {pe'a}.
Similarly, "feeling affection for" is a defining feature of
(English) "friend", which distinguishes it from such categories
as "aquaintance", "colleague", "associate" or "crony".

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:06:26 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

Brook Conner wrote:

> Lojbab? John? Comments? What's the "correct" definition of "pendo" -
> is, acts, or both?

Both.  Lojban takes the "walks like a duck & quacks like a duck -> is a duck"
viewpoint as much as possible.  Otherwise we end up talking about someone
who is behaviorally indistinguishable from a friend (does all the right
things, all the time) but isn't one in some metaphysical (bad meaning)
sense.

Generally we only say that someone "acts like a friend" if at some
later date he/she ceases to do so:  "He acted like a friend, but he
wasn't really one [because he betrayed me, etc.]".  Lojban handles
this sort of thing with its tense contours.

> Hmm, this should be another thread, but what is the metaphysics of
> lojban?  Relativist (acts like)? Absolutist (is)?  "Agnostic" (both)?

Lojban mostly takes the relativist (existential) viewpoint.  But the
absolutist (essential) viewpoint can be induced with "ka", which
reifies properties: "ko'a ckaji le ka pendo" means "he has the
property of being a friend".

--

John Cowan	http://www.reutershealth.com		jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies / Schliess eurer Aug vor heiliger Schau
Den er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
		-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:33:53 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

la djan cusku di'e

>Lojban mostly takes the relativist (existential) viewpoint.  But the
>absolutist (essential) viewpoint can be induced with "ka", which
>reifies properties: "ko'a ckaji le ka pendo" means "he has the
>property of being a friend".

But, since {ckaji} is just as relativist/existential as {pendo},
that only says that ko'a appears to have that property,
not that it has it in any absolutist/essential way, right?

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:44:10 +0100 (CET)
   From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xxx
Subject: UNL symposium

The Universal Network Language people are hosting another conference. Last
time the UN in New York was targeted, this time it is the EU in Brussels.
The meeting will be on Nov 18th, the agenda is below.

UNL is supposed to be an intermediary language which can be automatically
translated to any human language.

Unfortunately, the UNL people have so far clouded their work in mystery
and apparently not even produced a language spec.  Their website

	http://unl.ias.unu.edu

makes only claims about the great things that this language is to achieve
and the number of people involved in creating it.

If enough people are interested in the Brussels conference, maybe we could
have a Lojban meeting there.

---
                           Call for Participation

                              UNL'99 Symposium

                     - Introduction to the UNL World -

                            Organized by UNU/IAS

                                November 18

                             Brussels, Belgium

       The fourth Universal Networking Language (UNL) Symposium,
   organized by the United Nations University / Institute of Advanced
   Studies (UNU/IAS), will be held at Brussels 18 November 1999.
       UNU/IAS invites all who are interested in any aspect of language
   processing to break language barrier - researchers, developers,
   providers, and users - to participate in the symposium.

   The aim of the symposium are the followings.

     1) Introduction of the UNL.
     2) Invitation to the UNL world.
     3) Tutorial for establishing the UNL world.

   This symposium is free of charge, and open for public and official
   language is English.

   To register, please get "registration form" and send it to the
   secretariat of UNL Center whose address is on the top of the form.

   We hope to see you in Brussels!
   ______________________________________________________________________

                            Program (tentative)

                           Thursday, 18 November

     Introduction to UNL

       9:40 10:00 Welcome Remarks:
     10:00 10:20 General Presentation on UNL: The Idea of the UNL and
     Its Historical Opportunity
     10:20 10:40 Statement on UNL: Background and Potential Users for
     cultural, scientific, economic and social applications
     10:40 11:00 Coffee Break
     11:00 11:15 Technical Presentation of the UNL System: The mechanism
     of the UNL system: How the UNL operates through the Internet
     11:15 12:00 Demonstration of the UNL World

     12::00 14:00 Lunch

   Invitation to the UNL World


   14:00 14:45 Application of the UNL system

     * Information Service
     * E-commerce

   14:45 15:30 Development of the UNL information
     * Input system
     * Input method

   direct, word by word, tagged language, interactive, graphical, etc.

   15:30 16:00 Coffee Break
       16:00 16:40 UNL Society

     * UNL Developers Society
     * UNL Providers Society
     * UNL Research Society

   16:40 17:00 UNL Language Center
     * role
     * functions
     * organization

   17:00 17:30 Extension and Maintenance of the UNL system
     * introducing new languages
     * dictionary development
     * etc.

   17:30 18:00 Conclusion
   ______________________________________________________________________

                                                 UNL Center, October 1999



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 14:26:37 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

John Cowan wrote:

> > Lojbab? John? Comments? What's the "correct" definition of "pendo" -
> > is, acts, or both?
>
> Both.  Lojban takes the "walks like a duck & quacks like a duck -> is a duck"
> viewpoint as much as possible.  Otherwise we end up talking about someone
> who is behaviorally indistinguishable from a friend (does all the right
> things, all the time) but isn't one in some metaphysical (bad meaning)
> sense.
>
> Generally we only say that someone "acts like a friend" if at some
> later date he/she ceases to do so:  "He acted like a friend, but he
> wasn't really one [because he betrayed me, etc.]".  Lojban handles
> this sort of thing with its tense contours.
>
> > Hmm, this should be another thread, but what is the metaphysics of
> > lojban?  Relativist (acts like)? Absolutist (is)?  "Agnostic" (both)?
>
> Lojban mostly takes the relativist (existential) viewpoint.  But the
> absolutist (essential) viewpoint can be induced with "ka", which
> reifies properties: "ko'a ckaji le ka pendo" means "he has the
> property of being a friend".


But why make this explicit in the entry for {pendo} and not for
{pulji}?  More to the point, why then isn't {prami} defined as

x1 _acts as though_ they love/feel strong affectionate devotion
towards x2

?

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 6 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. lisri xivai
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. lisri xipano
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: lojban relationship words....
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxx>
      5. Conlang T-Shirt
           From: nellardo@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      6. Lesson 8
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:45:47 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xivai

to ke'unai toi .i le voksybende cu bacru lu vi le ga'u tcadu
ku lebi'u clani foldi bele srasu cu jbini le'i jarbu zdani
(Chorus: In the upper city between suburban tracts runs a long
grassy field.) .i re'ove'u le foldi ku lebi'u lijgri bele
dikca xe benji galstura cu jgari pe'a lo viska (Along the field
a row of tall electrical towers arrests the eye.) .i cnita le
cilta fa lebi'u ckafybarja noi zu'u manku banzu le ctepre
zi'enoi zu'unai se gusni banzu le dorpre zi'epoi rore munje cu simpenmi fi
ke'a li'u (Beneath the wires is a coffeehouse, dark
enough for the night people & bright enough for the day people,
where both worlds meet.) .i le pamoi cu bacru lu mi finti naje
facki li'u (First one: I don't create, I discover.) .i le remoi
cu bacru lu da poi mi'a na finti ke'a zo'u  ralte da (Second one:
What we don't find, we keep.) .i de poi mi'a finti ke'a zo'u
tolralte de li'u (What we findwe discard.) .i vy. bacru lu
ko'e ge mujbi'i bajra gi bevri hoi fu benji (Chorus: She was a
runner between the worlds, a carrier & a messenger.) .i ko'a na
jimpe le ve flalu befi ko'e li'u (He did not understand the terms
of her compact.) .i py. bacru lu mi do ponsypei ba'e ki'unaiku
li'u (First one: I want you irregardless.) .i vy. bacru lu li'o ki'unaiku
li'u (Chorus: --Irregardless.) fa'onai


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:54:08 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xipano

ko'a da'i tavla pensi di'e .itu'e (The Magician speaks:) le
mibybalpre ca'a zifre leza'i se jimte (Myself am actually free
of limitation.) .i my. cuxna gi'e jdice (I choose & decide.)
.i ra'u zukte (Above all, I act.) .iku'i levi tcadu ba'o binxo
co se mipri fi my. (But this city has become a mystery to me.)
.ije lemy. se cinmo ba'o kalsa binxo (And my feelings chaotic.)
.i na djuno ledu'u donri je'ikau nicte (I don't know if it's day
or night.) .i se cfipu cadzu (I wander confused.) .i gleki joi
klaku (Happy & weeping./) .i ko'i goi le se prami be my. cu
cusku ledu'u vo'a .e my. ba gunma gi'o le flalu befi ko'i ba
flalu fi my. (She whom I love says we'll only be together if
her compact is also my compact.) .i vu'enaiki le sudytutra cu
ganra (The desert is wide.) .i my. jersi (I pursue.) tu'u


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:36:43 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

At 02:26 PM 11/3/99 +0200, Robin Turner wrote:
> > Lojban mostly takes the relativist (existential) viewpoint.  But the
> > absolutist (essential) viewpoint can be induced with "ka", which
> > reifies properties: "ko'a ckaji le ka pendo" means "he has the
> > property of being a friend".
>
>
>But why make this explicit in the entry for {pendo} and not for
>{pulji}?  More to the point, why then isn't {prami} defined as
>
>x1 _acts as though_ they love/feel strong affectionate devotion
>towards x2

My intent in using the words "acts as a friend to" was not intended to
evoke a weak form of "seems like a friend but might not really be one".  I
was thinking about how friendship is sometimes defined in terms of the
mutually-close relationship between two individuals, but that it also
refers to acts of friendship: helping out because of sincere concern for
another.  The latter is used (perhaps it is metaphorically) for charitable
and environmental causes (e.g. "Friends of the Earth"), where presumably
one is a "friend" because of ones' acts indicating friendly concern.

As a general rules "acts as though" cannot be used for the weak expression
because whatever it means, it is not merely limited to agentive places.  So
you would need some phrasing like

x1 acts as though they love/feel strong affectionate devotion, apparently
towards x2.

I will leave the wishy-washy version of the place structure of "klama" as
an exercise in masochism.

I myself take the interpretation suggested by John Cowan, with rather more
emphasis on the tie between a predicate "broda" and "ckaji le ka broda",
with the addition that *each* place of a predicate must be "ckaji le ka
broda" with all places filled in on broda.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 16:05:58 -0500
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: lojban relationship words....

"Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" wrote:

> I myself take the interpretation suggested by John Cowan, with rather more
> emphasis on the tie between a predicate "broda" and "ckaji le ka broda",
> with the addition that *each* place of a predicate must be "ckaji le ka
> broda" with all places filled in on broda.

All but one, the one you are property-izing on.  Thus:

	ko'a klama ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u

means

	ko'a ckaji le ka klama ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u .ije
	ko'e ckaji le ka se klama ko'a ko'i ko'o ko'u .ije
	ko'i ckaji le ka te klama ko'e ko'a ko'o ko'u .ije
	ko'o ckaji le ka ve klama ko'e ko'i ko'a ko'u .ije
	ko'u ckaji le ka xe klama ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'a

The purpose of "ce'u" was to have something explicit with which to fill
the x1 of each abstract predicate in these sentences.

--

John Cowan	http://www.reutershealth.com		jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! / Schliess eurer Aug vor heiliger Schau
Den er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
		-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Wed,  3 Nov 1999 13:48:37 -0500 (EST)
   From: nellardo@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Conlang T-Shirt

As I just got mail, and saw no one else had forwarded this, here's all
the current details on the t-shirt being created on the conlang
mailing list. Enjoy.

hi,

---

Price:

I did originally say 'around GBP 10'. That was before counting two very
important things... postage and tax. British VAT tax is at 17.5%, but thanks
to the stupid way British laws work, all who buy the T-shirt shall be
contributing the British governments treasury. I have not yet had a chance
to
do a final pricing, but it will be in the GBP 12-15 range. multiply by 1.6
for USD, by 175 for YEN, by 1000 for Tanzanian shillings, or by 35000 for
polish zlotys. Roughly speaking, of course.

---

Crossposting:

Some of you have been crossposting to various other mailing lists.
Brilliant, I say. But because these people haven't been getting the full
story, the information I am getting back from some of these crossposts is
incomplete. Please, if you crosspost, can you include one of my complete
announcements on the T-shirt status.

ALL ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM ME WILL APPEAR ONLY ON THE CONLANG MAILING LIST.
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE IF YOU WANT NEWS AT IT COMES.

---

Payment:

Several options, outlined below. Note: send no money yet.

cash - GBP only, no coins. Make absolutely certain that the money cannot be
detected by our wonderful postal workers, as money does still go missing
when sent by post.

cheque - easy for UK citizens and denizens. All others, you may need to ask
your bank. It may be called a foreign check or a foreign draft, and your
bank may make additional charges. It should be made out in GBP to myself
(Fabian van-de-l'Isle).

helpful people - John Cowan <cowan@xxxx.xxx> has volunteered to act as
intermediary for USA orders. When you order, send your payment in USD to
him, along with your addresses. He will then forward all this to me, and I
can send the T-shirts out directly to yourselves.

cheque - in any hard currency. I can accept them, but there is an additional
GBP 5 charge, which I do not intend to cover. Another payment method will
likely prove more cost effective.

---

Reservations:

These are being made strictly to order - I will not be making any surplus. T
o reserve one, I need:

name (full real name, not internet handle)
address (just country)
email address
quantity
size (S, M, L, XL)
colour (choice of black or white cloth)

The T-shirts they use come in 4 sizes, S, M, L, XL. These have,
respectively, chest sizes 42, 44, 46, 48 inches (multiply by 2.5 for the
equivalent in cm). I was shown samples, and the material is not prone to
fading or shrinkage. They do have *really* cheap material, but I made it
clear on the phone that I was not interested in that. The T-shirt material
weight is 155 g/m^2, if that means anything to you folks.

---

Contributions (and corrections):

First, see the web page (URL below) to see if I already have the language.
To contribute to the T-shirt, I need information in the following format:

If you have a correction to make, please, send the correction as you think
it should appear. Don't just tell me I'm wrong ;)

- language name (in English)
- language creator
- transliterated phrase in Latin script.
- interlinear explanation (preferably in a single line or two)
- optional paragraph to appear on the web page.
- the phrase in the original script, as a gif file

If you have a Latin script, just send the text exactly as it is spelt, and
tell me what font you would prefer it to be written in (ie Arial, times,
etc). I have a large collection of fonts and something will probably fit in
with your hopes.

If you use a real-world, but non-Latin script, ask first before sending. I
*may* have a font capable of displaying the script properly. If I do have
such a font, then you need only send me the text in the appropriate
language.

If you use an invented script, then I need a graphic. The ideal graphic will
be:

- monochrome, black text on white background.
- text size equivalent to Latin script at 72 points (1 screen inch)

The print shop is fully capable of handling ridiculously large gif files, as
I can give the  graphics on computer disc. However, please be gentle on
my modem and not send files over, say, a megabyte or ten :)

It is true that I am asking for the graphics you are sending to be larger
than the ones that will eventually appear on the T shirt. However, it is far
easier to shrink a large graphic than to enlarge a small graphic. Big is
beautiful here.

I repeat: do not send gif files with text in Latin script. That is quite
unnecessary.

---

Wanted languages:

Arabic
Chinese
Greek
Korean
Nepali
Russian
will entertain convincing arguments for almost any language.

I still want any genuine conlang as well, but these natlangs ought to appear
for various reasons. Some of the languages on the webpage need corrections,
better graphics or improved commentary.

---

url

www.rhialto.easynet.co.uk/conlang/tee/tee.htm

---

choice of languages:

is based on (in no particular order)

- bona fide conlangs by list subscribers
- natlangs with distinctive scripts
- natlangs that have served as effective interlinguas amongst large numbers
of people.
- auxlangs
- famous conlangs used in fiction

Having said that, auxlangs do have a lower priority, primarily due to the
high level of similarity between many of them. Some of those on the web page
may eventually be dropped because of this.

---

fonts:

please do not send me any fonts, ttf or otherwise. Unless of course you have
an iso-8859-3 compliant Comic Sans font ;)

Seriously, I have almost no free time these days, and creating a good
graphic from a font is time consuming. If necessary, send gif files for
unusual scripts.

---

Timescales:

I expect to get a preliminary design from the designer in about a week.
There is no official deadline for submitting new languages. The turnaround
time from teh moment you send payment to the moment you receive T-shirts
will probably be about 4-6 weeks.

---
Fabian
Jkun li dik il-kitba tpatti it-tieba ta' qalb ta' patruni tieghi.
Jkun li jtaffi ugigh tal-Mitlufin u tal-Indannati.
Jkun li ilkoll li jaqraw il-kitba, qalbhom ihobbu is-Sewwa u l-Unur.
U b'dak l'ghamil, nithallas tax-xoghol iebes.



Brook
---------
% make love
Make:  Don't know how to make love.  Stop.

---------
Fancy. Myth. Magic.
http://www.concentric.net/~nellardo/



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 13:16:18 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Lesson 8

coi rodo

Thanks to all who "nit-picked" as requested!  Fortunately this
time there didn't seem to be many major bloopers in the lessons,
just inadequate debugging of earlier lessons + my usual typos and
habitual errors (e.g. mixing up {kei}s and {ku}s, wrong number
scope etc.).

The Beta version of Lesson 8 of the beginners' course is up,
though not linked to from the contents page yet.  It deals with
conversion and simple lujvo-making using conversion (sel- etc.)
and negation (nal-).  You can view it at

http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lesson8.html

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. bakni nanla
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 12:32:27 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: bakni nanla

paunai lebiunai bakni nanla mo


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. prefix trick = bad idea
           From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
      2. sorry
           From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
      3. pronounciation
           From: Paul Dufresne <dufrp@xxxxxx.xxx
      4. gasnu
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      5. Thomspon/Lojban correspondence
           From: Ben Webster <bwebste@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:16:28 EST
   From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
Subject: prefix trick = bad idea

In a message dated 11/7/1999 4:00:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tlhIngan-Hol-digest-help@xxx.xxx writes:

> tIqwIj Sa'angnIS "I must show you [plural] my heart"
>  (tIqwIj "my heart," Sa'angnIS "I must show you [plural] it")
>
>
this trick leaves the real direct object hanging by itself with no link to
the verb in the form of a prefix.  indirect objects with no direct object can
be handled this way with no loss of clarity, but even so, it looks to me like
a major confusion in an area where there is already a lot of confusion.
elegant simplicity has become tangled mess.

lay'tel SIvten


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:18:05 EST
   From: BestATN@xxx.xxx
Subject: sorry

to all: i apologize for the previous post. i sent it to the wrong list
lay'tel SIvten


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:16:47 -0500
   From: Paul Dufresne <dufrp@xxxxxx.xxx
Subject: pronounciation

Hi, I am the french canadian that was asking about x pronounciation and
never replyed. I am sorry for this, I kept thinking each day that I should
go on the web find back the exact URL of the file that intend to
speak in this message, and check if the list of gismus pronounced
in this .wav file is listed, but I always forgot during my night
period of navigation. That was something like consonants.wav.

I am sorry to tell that but I find it very hard to understand
the prononciation vocabulary like vular, or fricative. So I
decided to try to transcript this file I was speaking above.

There's lots of words that don't exist but that's what I heared.
I will write these with a * before, and if there is variations,
I'll write them in paranthesises.

botpi, blabi, carmi, pencu, dakfu, cidni, *(xunva, funva),
*kerpa, *(gunlo, gonlo, gunro),
degji,
*(jampu,janpu),
pelji,
*(kundi, xundi, kondi),
moklu,
*lujban,
cilre, manku,
*carni,
mandu,
xunre,
penbi, *(jinpe, jinme),
*(rakli, ratli),
*(swera, srera),
*(sanli, sonli),
rafsi,
*(tomji, komji),
betfu, valsi, tavla,
*xudni,
*darsi,
zutse, nazbi

I just rewrote what I wrote on a sheet a long time ago, I didn't
relisten to it for a long while (I need to borrow my sister
computer to use the sound card).

I feel I really should wash my ears! :-)

But maybe this could really help show something about the kind of
pronounciation I do.

cho'o mi'e pal.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 20:43:02 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: gasnu

coi rodo

I'm currently working on Lesson 8 of the beginners' course, which
deals with cause and effect.  Most of it is concerned with rinka,
mukti, krinu, nibli and their respective BAI modals, but at one
point I digress into how, if at all, Lojbanistanis would render
the English sentence

John made me hit him.

In an elegant piece of sophistry I argue that the only way to
give even a close approximation of this is through the dark art
of sumti-raising e.g.

tu'a la djon. mukti lenu mi darxe vo'a

The point I want to make is that English uses "make" in a vague
and often irrational way, and the best thing is not to translate
it but to think about what actual events we are referring to
(e.g. {mi darxe la djon. mu'i lenu ri mi'afra mi}).

However, there is also the possibility of using {gasnu}.  I would
argue that

la djon. gasnu lenu mi darxe vo'a

is malglico, and that {gasnu} is simply the agentive version of
{rinka}, but I'd like to hear opinions from others on this list.

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 16:41:30 -0500
   From: Ben Webster <bwebste@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Thomspon/Lojban correspondence

Is anyone here familiar with Thompson, a Salishan language spoken in
southwestern Canada?  I read a bit about its structure for a linguistics
class, and it seems to have interesting parallels to Lojban. Rather than
nouns and verbs, it is organized into predicates (or majors) and
particles, roughly corresponding to brivla and cmavo.  Just curious as
to whether its structure was noted in the development of Lojban or
Loglan.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Thomspon/Lojban correspondence
           From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
      2. Re: gasnu
           From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
      3. Re: Thomspon/Lojban correspondence
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:17:40 EST
   From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: Thomspon/Lojban correspondence

No.  As the nearest thing to a linguist in the middling early days of Loglan,
I can say that I never heard of Thompson and so it did not take any role.  I
think that applies to Lojban as well.  But it would be interesting to see how
thesimilar features work out in a natural language (there are others that are
also close, but this has the advantage of not being well-known).  Do you have
some source data?  someone's dissertation published in some ethnography
series usually, unless there are a lot of speakers.
pc


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:18:03 EST
   From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: gasnu

I don't see John made me hit him as involving subject raising, insofar as I
remember place strictures: does the motivator have to be an event?  To be
sure, we assume that he did this motivating by doing something, but that need
not be implicit in this claim.   In particular, I don't think the kind of
logical problems are going to arise for which subject raising is the first
line of defense.  I even think that rinka is possible here, when something
stronger than motivation is called for: coercion of various sorts, say
(and/or some compound of bapli).  But I think we should avoid using gasnu as
much as possible, since it is too likely to be overgeneralized -- mal just
about any language, let alone English.  JCB overworked his "makes-out of
material-" for all the agent causatives, and I am not sure that Institute
Loglan has ever gotten the causal area straightened out from that.
pc


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:38:51 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Thomspon/Lojban correspondence

At 11:17 AM -0500 11/8/99, Pycyn@xxx.xxx wrote:
>From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
>
>No.  As the nearest thing to a linguist in the middling early days of Loglan,
>I can say that I never heard of Thompson and so it did not take any role.  I
>think that applies to Lojban as well.  But it would be interesting to see how
>thesimilar features work out in a natural language (there are others that are
>also close, but this has the advantage of not being well-known).  Do you have
>some source data?  someone's dissertation published in some ethnography
>series usually, unless there are a lot of speakers.
>pc


There is not much mention of it on the web. The other Salishan languages
get more attention.

But from http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/countries/Cana.html#THP :

THOMPSON (NTLAKAPMUK) [THP] 500 or fewer speakers out of a population of
3,000 (1977 SIL). British Columbia, south central. Salishan, Interior
Salish, Northern. Most speakers are middle-aged or older, bilingual in
English. Language courses in Thompson (1991). Grammar, dictionary.

xu ma'a facki le za'i zasti le tolmorji barda lanzu tu'i le kunti tumla pe
la kanada



-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: Intercontinental ... from recent post at auxlang
           From: John Cowan <jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: gasnu
           From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
      3. re: gasnu
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. lisri xipapa
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. xa'unro'a xipavo
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 11:20:32 -0500
   From: John Cowan <jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Intercontinental ... from recent post at auxlang

Jay Bowks wrote:

> Any other translations ???

Lojban:

la sol. cusku lu
Sun says, quote,

zo sol. cmene mi .i mi mutce carmi
"Sun" benames me.  I am very brilliant.

.i mi du'a mo'iga'u klama
I in-the-east moving-upward go.

.ije ca le nu mi klama kei donri
And at the event-of my going, it-is-day.

.i mi zgana pa'o le do canko sepi'o le mi solji carmi kanla
I observe transfixing the of-you window with-tool the of-me (goldly bright) eye.

.ije mi ternuzba do le du'u le cikmokca cu cabna
And I am-a-news-source to-you of-the statement-that the awake-moment is-now.

.ije mi cusku fi do fe lu
And I say to you, quote,

le nu mi carmi na mukti le nu do sipna stali ga'u le ckana
The event-of my shining does-not-motivate the event-of you sleepingly remain atop the bed.

.i mukti le nu do sanli gi'e gunka
Motivates the event-of you standing and working.

.i mukti le nu tcidu gi'e cadzu li'u li'u
Motivates the event-of reading and walking, unquote, unquote.

>English...
>
>"The sun says: 'My name is sun. I am very brilliant.
>I rise in the east, and when I rise, it is day. I look
>through your window with my eye as bright as gold,
>and I tell you when it is time to get up. And I say to
>you: "Lazy one, get up. I don't shine so that you may
>stay in bed sleeping but that you may get up and work,
>that you read and go walking."

--

John Cowan	http://www.reutershealth.com		jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! / Schliess eurer Aug vor heiliger Schau
Den er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
		-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:07:56 EST
   From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: gasnu

In a message dated 11/8/99 11:38:45 AM CST, robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xx writes:

<< Yes, according to the definition of {mukti}:

 x1 (action/event/state) motivates/is a motive/incentive for
 action/event x2, per volition of x3

 I'm not quite sure what the third place is meant to be, though.>>

I suppose that the1>3 conversion of mukti would do nicely for the original
sentence then (thanks for the note; as usual, I can''t find my gismu list to
get place structures
right and have to rely on ancient versions).

 <<To have a person in the x1 would give them a magical power to
 reach inside someone's head and motivate them directly, which,
 pending further developments in parapsychology, we can safely
 ignore.>>
Interesting interpretation!  But note: it would still be the act -- however
an odd one -- that did the work.

 <<Sumti-raising is less the first line of defence than a dirty hack
 to get out of the problem!>>
Not really.  It is a regular feature of the grammars of all the languages I
know (not a huge list, to be sure, but fairly diverse).  Lojban's only
peculiarity is that it marks the feature explicitly rather than by
implication -- either lexically or by paradox -- and that change is required
by the claim to be a logical language.

 <<Coercive acts set up a situation in which someone is
 motivated - albeit extremely strongly - to react in a certain
 way.  The only time one could use {rinka} is if someone
 physically forces the other persons body to move in a particular
 way.  As John Cowan pointed out off-list, in this case it would
 mean you grab the persons hand and slap yourself with it. >>
Another interesting interpretation, though clearly sustainable.  What about
the electrode planting technique, where arm motion, for example, is induced
by throwing some switches, with no motivation involved?  Addiction?  And so
on through the whole list of unwilling behaviors?

pc




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:25:04 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: re: gasnu

stidi lu da zukte zo'e lenu de di broda li'u .i lebi'unai
gliselsku cu sorsmu .ionai


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:42:21 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xipapa

no'i vy. bacru lu re roryru'i cu simpenmi co jbini lei kamju
be le bogrokci be'o pe le ckafybarja li'u (Chorus: Two ghosts
meet between the marble pillars of the coffeehouse.) .i py.
bacru lu le pamoi nicte poi sipcau ku'o cu se cmene la drigau
li'u (First one says: The first night of sleeplessness is called Saddener.)
.i ry. bacru lu le remoi cu se cmene la cnikurkygau
li'u (Second one says: The second is called Embitterer.) .i py.
bacru lu le cimoi cu se cmene la zampacna daspo li'u (First one
says: The third is called Hope Destroyer.) .i ry. bacru lu jdika
fa le ka xamsi condi (Second one: Sea level sinks.) .i ba tolmipri
lei dacti pe le loldi li'u (The things in it will be revealed.)
.i py. bacru lu le sudytutra cu xamsi sekai le ka jmive cnita
li'u (First one: The desert is an ocean with its life underground.)
.i vy. bacru lu sance le jmanitnunselzalkemricnarge li'u (Chorus:
The sound of acorns crunching underfoot.) ni'o ku'i ko'e co'a
jimpe le go'o (But the witch realized something.) .i le ve flalu befiko'e cu
nibli ledu'u ganai de poi remei cu flasimxu binxo
(The conditions of her pact required that if a twosome became
co-implicated,) gi le fasnu .iisai.aucai be le ba de nu'o mutce
se zenba fi leni balvi (then that Event (fear!)(desire!) of their future
might be greatly delayed.) .i ge'e ba'e na djica (Oh she
did NOT want that.") tu'u li'u .i ko'axire lu .ijebabo mo li'u
bacru ("What happened then?" asked The Stranger.) .i ranxi cisma
(She smiled.) .i bacru lu kiki mi tolmo'i li'u ("I forget.") .i
ko'a spuda fi lu da'u .i'enai .o'onairu'e li'u (Djuna said,
"That's not a very good story!")  .i ko'oxire lu tugni .i je'unai
ca'a co'e li'u bacru ("Of course! Because it really happened.")
.i cfipu mi (I was confused.) .i ra'unai ca'o troci co sapygau lebi'unai
barda lujvo (I was still trying to figure out the big
lujvo back there.)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:52:36 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: xa'unro'a xipavo

di'a zu'o se burcu (I'm painting again.) kei ze'uba lenu na
no'a kei poi nanca li re (After not, for two years.) .i ba'o
ge cikre gi bevri fi le zdani vau le cibykamju (I retrieved &
fixed my easel.) to se'i zbasu ri toi (I built it myself.) .i
ri na'e tinsa zo'o (It's ramshackle.) .i ca milxe jdika fi leni
go'i (A little less so, now.) ni'o ba'o prejygau lei cinta
tubnu vi le loldi (I laid out the paints on the floor.) .i
cinmo leza'i cizra (It felt strange.) .i da'i tolmorji le tadji
bele zu'o se burcu (As if i'd forgotten how to paint.) .i xamgu
fa la'edi'u (Which was okay.) .i sa'u tu'a mi cfari segau lepu'u
gacri le blabi kurfa (I started by convering the white canvas.)
.i .i'u.a'e senva cikna (Immediately i fell into a familiar
trance.) .i ba'o temci (Time passed.) .i mo'u carmi lifri (I
was exhilarated.) .i le kurfa ca narju bunre (The canvas was
now sienna.) .i .uocai banli panpi mibypre (A great peace was
with me.)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: gasnu
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: gasnu
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      3. lisri xipapa
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. ui. coi rodo
           From: "la kinin" <MTPEPPER@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:21:18 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: gasnu


la pycyn cusku di'e

>  x1 (action/event/state) motivates/is a motive/incentive for
>  action/event x2, per volition of x3
>
>  I'm not quite sure what the third place is meant to be, though.>>
>
>I suppose that the1>3 conversion of mukti would do nicely for the original
>sentence then

I think it doesn't help, because x3 is the agent of event x2,
not of event x1:

x1: John laughs
x2: Robin hits John
x3: Robin

A more clear wording for {mukti} might be "x1 motivates
x3 to do x2". I think the "per volition of x3" roundabout
was used to keep the arguments in Lojban order.

>  <<Sumti-raising is less the first line of defence than a dirty hack
>  to get out of the problem!>>
>Not really.  It is a regular feature of the grammars of all the languages I
>know (not a huge list, to be sure, but fairly diverse).  Lojban's only
>peculiarity is that it marks the feature explicitly rather than by
>implication -- either lexically or by paradox -- and that change is
>required
>by the claim to be a logical language.

Is there any way of telling when sumti raising should be
marked and when it isn't necessary? For example:

(1)     la djan mukti le nu la robin darxi dy
         John motivates Robin to hit him.

(2)     le nu la djan mi'afra cu mukti le nu la robin darxi dy
         John's laughter motivates Robin to hit him.

(3)     le nu le nu la djan mi'afra cu fanza cu mukti
         le nu la robin darxi dy
         John's laughter being annoying motivates
         Robin to hit him.

I find that (2) is more specific than (1), John laughing
is just one little part of John, that part which is most
responsible for motivating Robin's action.
But so is (3) with respect to (2). It is not everything
about the laughter that motivates Robin, it is the
specific property of it being annoying.
If (1) requires {tu'a}, does (2) require it too? And if
it does, then so does (3), because we could always
narrow the motive down even more.
How can we determine whether John, his laughter,
or the annoying character of his laughter are
being unmarkedly (and so incorrectly) raised or not?

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:29:01 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: gasnu

la xorxes. pu ciska di'e

<< I think it doesn't help, because x3 is the agent of event x2,
not of event x1:

x1: John laughs
x2: Robin hits John
x3: Robin

A more clear wording for {mukti} might be "x1 motivates
x3 to do x2". I think the "per volition of x3" roundabout
was used to keep the arguments in Lojban order. >>

Isn't that a bit repetitive? From "lenu la djan. mi'afra cu mukti lenu la
robin. darxi dy." it's fairly obvious that Robin's the one doing the
hitting.




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:27:20 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: lisri xipapa

no'i vy. bacru lu re roryru'i cu simpenmi co jbini lei kamju
be le bogrokci be'o pe le ckafybarja li'u (Chorus: Two ghosts
meet between the marble pillars of the coffeehouse.) .i py.
bacru lu le pamoi nicte poi sipcau ku'o cu se cmene la drigau
li'u (First one says: The first night of sleeplessness is called Saddener.)
.i ry. bacru lu le remoi cu se cmene la cnikurkygau
li'u (Second one says: The second is called Embitterer.) .i py.
bacru lu le cimoi cu se cmene la zampacna daspo li'u (First one
says: The third is called Hope Destroyer.) .i ry. bacru lu jdika
fa le ka xamsi condi (Second one: Sea level sinks.) .i ba tolmipri
lei dacti pe le loldi li'u (The things in it will be revealed.)
.i py. bacru lu le sudytutra cu xamsi sekai le ka jmive cnita
li'u (First one: The desert is an ocean with its life underground.)
.i vy. bacru lu sance le jmanitnunselzalkemricnarge li'u (Chorus:
The sound of acorns crunching underfoot.) ni'o ku'i ko'e co'a
jimpe le go'o (But the witch realized something.) .i le ve flalu befiko'e cu
nibli ledu'u ganai de poi remei cu flasimxu binxo
(The conditions of her pact required that if a twosome became
co-implicated,) gi le fasnu .iisai.aucai be le ba de nu'o mutce
se zenba fi leni balvi (then that Event (fear!)(desire!) of their future
might be greatly delayed.) .i ge'e ba'e na djica (Oh she
did NOT want that.") tu'u li'u .i ko'axire lu .ijebabo mo li'u
bacru ("What happened then?" asked The Stranger.) .i ranxi cisma
(She smiled.) .i bacru lu kiki mi tolmo'i li'u ("I forget.") .i
ko'a spuda fi lu da'u .i'enai .o'onairu'e li'u (Djuna said,
"That's not a very good story!")  .i ko'oxire lu tugni .i je'unai
ca'a co'e li'u bacru ("Of course! Because it really happened.")
.i cfipu mi (I was confused.) .i ra'unai ca'o troci co sapygau lebi'unai
barda lujvo (I was still trying to figure out the big
lujvo back there.)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:10:11 -0500
   From: "la kinin" <MTPEPPER@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: ui. coi rodo

mi se cnino la lojban. io .iku'i mi djica lenu cilre zmadu .ita'o mi xebni
le
glico. iunai. o'onai. o'anai

fe'omi'e kinin.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: ui. coi rodo
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: re: gasnu
           From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
      3. Re: gasnu
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: ui. coi rodo
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
      5. mela senva tcadu repamo'o
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. makfa vomo'o
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      7. Re: gasnu
           From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
      8. Re: gasnu
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      9. What's the difference?
           From: "David Shockey" <david@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:16:13 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: ui. coi rodo


coi doi kinin

>mi se cnino la lojban. io .iku'i mi djica lenu cilre zmadu .ita'o mi xebni
>le glico. iunai. o'onai. o'anai

i ue ki'u ma do xebni le glico bangu i do se bangu ma

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:21:06 +0200
   From: Robin Turner <robin@xxxxxxx.xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: re: gasnu

la maikl.xelsym. cusku di'e

> stidi lu da zukte zo'e lenu de di broda li'u .i lebi'unai
> gliselsku cu sorsmu .ionai

ma stidi .i pe'i mi na go'i .i ku'i mi ka'e pu maljimpe

co'o mi'e robin.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:18:08 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: gasnu


la reciproc cusku di'e

>Isn't that a bit repetitive? From "lenu la djan. mi'afra cu mukti lenu la
>robin. darxi dy." it's fairly obvious that Robin's the one doing the
>hitting.

Yes, that's why it is not necessary to fill the x3 of mukti.
The only other alternative I can see is that John's laughter
motivates John himself to being hit by Robin, which is more
unlikely.

There are many Lojban predicates that take an argument
that is always a sub-argument of one of the other arguments.
This still can be useful when the event argument is not
given explicitly, for instance:

            le nu la djan mi'afra cu mukti ma la robin
            John's laughter motivates Robin to do what?

            le nu la djan mi'afra cu mukti so'ida la robin
            John's laughter motivates Robin to do many things.

            le nu la djan mi'afra cu mukti lo vlile la robin
            John's laughter motivates Robin to do something violent.

co'o mi'e xorxes




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:15:08 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: ui. coi rodo

>From: "la kinin" <MTPEPPER@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>mi se cnino la lojban. io .iku'i mi djica lenu cilre zmadu .ita'o mi xebni
>le
>glico. iunai. o'onai. o'anai
>
>fe'omi'e kinin.


mi rinsa do teka'a le za'i logji .ije mi djica le nu co'a mi'o zmadu lojbo
casnu .i do xabju ma .i mu'o

-----
 Perpetual Progress, Self-Transformation, Practical Optimism, Intelligent
Technology,
Open Society, Self-Direction, and Rational Thinking.
http://extropy.com/




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:30:59 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: mela senva tcadu repamo'o

no'i ko'u lu

vila vuzyxu'e ku
do mi kansa je claxu
.i ma'a nu'o stali ta
.i nu'o gleki

li'u tcidu bacru ("On the Other Side," she read, "you were
with me & not with me. We could have stayed there. We could
have been happy.") .i fo'u spuda naje judytirna (The Vicar
said nothing, but listened.) .i tcidu bacru lu

                   .iku'i fanta
lenu ma'a gunma kei fa
leza'i le fatci pede'u cu jitfa
vi ti poi simsepli falo dukti
vi ke'a .i mi noda zukte ("But our being together is prevented
by the fact that that is false here where opposites are apart.
I do nothing)

va'o lepa lisri befi
na'ebo le mibypre snefri
kukuku lepu'u rinka
lenu le tolsipna ginka (in the one story told by other than
myself the dream-experiencer, to cause the awakened camp)

bele manti co'a batci li'u
                     (of ants to begin biting.") ni'oni'o camki
falenu lo kensa toldi poi se cidja le nejni poi se cupra ko'uxire
goi le marji neme'e lai ti'ocpi ku'o ca lenu ko'uxire farlu le
mela xekri kevna me'okeiku'oku'o ka'e cimni renvi (It is
possible that space butterflies who feed off the energy from
falling matter around a black hole, could live forever) gi'o le
toldi cu na mulno snada lenu jersi ko'uxire (as long as they
succeed in not falling in.)



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:31:31 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: makfa vomo'o

ca'e fu'epo'o lo remna cu vlipa fu'o ko'a goi leka kakne co
vimcu lece'u te cmene menpau lece'u ganse menpau (Humans are
only powerful in the ability to remove their identifying mind-
part from their perceiving mind-part.) .i ko'a mulno gu'e nu
vlipa je zifre (This is all power & freedom,) gi krasi lo larcu
.e lo saske (art & science.) ni'oku'i ganai ko'e goi lo te
makfa ko'a pilno lepu'u ganse lo fenki (But when a magician uses
this capability in observing a psychotic,) kei gi le menpau poi
bandu fi lenu menli kalsa kei (that part of the mind that would
defend against chaos) ku'o se claxu ko'e (is absent) .ije ko'e
le fenki ve zgana cu cokcu pe'a co vlile (& the psychotic point
of view is absorbed with invasive force.) .i to banzu xirere toi
le zazylarcu cu mamta pe'a lo nu se bapli pensi kei ji'a (Art
is also the mother of Obsession.)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:36:53 EST
   From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: gasnu

I think that Lojban (following Loglan in this as so much else) follows -- in
a minor way -- the English (etc.) habit of splitting up event descriptions
into agent and action: English for - to constructions for example, making the
agent appear as a separate argument.  This pattern preceded the
subject-raising grammar Lojban now has (I am not sure about Loglan).  Of
course, the English is a kind of subject raising mark -- except that it does
not adequately warn against quantification.  But the fact that x3 is
redundant is more or less what led me to suggest that x3 might mean the agent
in x1, which we are more apt to want to raise and where the redundancy is
less obvious.
pc


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:29:45 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: gasnu


la pycyn cusku di'e

>I am not sure that x3 of mukti is the agent in x2; that would be
>redundant, or another version of subject-raising, like English
>for-to.  Having it refer to the person whose will directs the
>motivation would give it a more independent status, even if still
>perhaps technically redundant

But in some cases there in no will directing the motivation:

      le nu carvi cu mukti le nu la djan ckana stali
      The raining motivates John to stay in bed.

We don't want to imply that there's someone's will involved
in the raining, I think.

...
>Here it does not matter (yet, at least) what John did, let
>alone what what John did did.  In short, I would use subject raing only
>when
>it is required grammatically, not conceptually -- unless there was some
>point I really wanted to make with it.

Excellent! I was never sure when the chain of abstractions
starts or ends, so it didn't make much sense to say that
in some cases it was obligatory to use tu'a and in others
wasn't. Thanks for your explanation.

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
   Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:31:25 -0600
   From: "David Shockey" <david@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: What's the difference?

What are the major differences between loglan and lojban?  I'm going to choose an "artificial" language to learn and teach my children and I like the looks of these two at first glance.  I know that loglan is the predecessor of lojban but nothing I've read yet spells out the differences between them.

Thanks!



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Thanks for the advice
           From: "David Shockey" <david@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:29:54 -0600
   From: "David Shockey" <david@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Thanks for the advice

Thank you all for answering my question.  All were helpful but my question was best answered by the following web page.


http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/why-i-like.html




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. prosa gutci lipa
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. prosa gutci lipa
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:49:40 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lipa

za'o crisa .i cerni la xavdei .i litce vi le zdabarja glismi
.i gu'e zgike co cedra lo mela xrula verba gi karcytro .i banzu
.i banzu


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:51:14 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lipa

za'o crisa .i cerni la xavdei .i litce vi le zdabarja glismi
.i gu'e zgike co cedra lo mela xrula verba gi karcytro .i banzu
.i banzu


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: [OT] UNL symposium
           From: Pierpaolo Bernardi <bernardp@xxx.xx.xxxxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:14:51 +0100 (MET)
   From: Pierpaolo Bernardi <bernardp@xxx.xx.xxxxx.xxx
Subject: Re: [OT] UNL symposium


> From: PILCH Hartmut <phm@xxx.xx>
>
> The Universal Network Language people are hosting another conference. Last
> time the UN in New York was targeted, this time it is the EU in Brussels.
> The meeting will be on Nov 18th, the agenda is below.
>
> UNL is supposed to be an intermediary language which can be automatically
> translated to any human language.
>
> Unfortunately, the UNL people have so far clouded their work in mystery
> and apparently not even produced a language spec.

An italian magazine has published a short article on UNL.  In this
article there's a photo of a computer screen which shows a short text
coded in UNL, and its translation in Italian and Lituanian (IIRC).

If there's interest in this, I can copy this screenfull of text to the
list.

P.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: [OT] UNL symposium
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:51:57 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: [OT] UNL symposium

> If there's interest in this, I can copy this screenfull of text to the
> list.

I'd be interested.

	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. prosa gutci lire
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:00:44 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lire

lu ba slilu fale ctino ~ be su'o lojbo jimca ~ bu'u le
bogrokci ~ xance po'u mi li'u xe fanva co ranxi .i lo fenki
cu renvi le datytsani ji'a


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. prosa gutci lici
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: prosa gutci lici
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:18:39 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lici

le ba noryru'i cu klama lemu'e citka vo'a fala lunra


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 00:26:37 -0500 (EST)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: prosa gutci lici

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, michael helsem wrote:

> From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> le ba noryru'i cu klama lemu'e citka vo'a fala lunra




.i le ka mi na kakne jimpe be do cu banro .i mi .onai do gasnu




-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. re: prosa gutci  xici
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. prosa gutci lire
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: le bazi prosa gutci be lire
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:26:36 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: re: prosa gutci  xici

de'u srana lebi'u ranmi befi la gurdjief. ku.u'uro'eru'e


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:47:33 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lire

ca'o jarbu litru .i tizyxi'u daglamji .ibabo daglamji co sinxa
fo lu xo se jmina poi se catra ba banzu lenu do snomau karcytro
li'u


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:40:22 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: le bazi prosa gutci be lire

zo livo zo lire drani


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. prosa gutci limu
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. glico rafsmi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Re: glico rafsmi
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 11:30:20 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci limu

zazysnada .itu'e zu'i snada da .onai de vu'opoi ve'ijeze'i
fasnu .i na cumki fale za'i snada roda roroiku keikukuli'a to
lai se salci ja'a jitfa snada toi .iku'i foma ka'e merli le
ve'ujaze'u fasnu paunai .i ju'a zu'o jijnu filo mokca .iji'a
mulno cinmo lo mokca secau lenu skicu ja jdice .i cinmo le
xamgu ku joi le xlali .i to'u le zazysnada gu'o na'e ranmi gi
se jicmu le sevzyvelmre tu'u


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:48:43 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: glico rafsmi

for awhile i've been using the abbreviation "twencen" for "twentieth
century"; some other ones (mostly from online poetry discussions): "PoMo"
for "Post-Modernist/-ism", "langpo" for "Language Poetry", & "Po' Biz" for
"the poetry racket"...


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 15:25:59 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: glico rafsmi


la maikl. xelsem. pu cusku di'e

> for awhile i've been using the abbreviation "twencen" for "twentieth
> century";
You're not the only one :). I use that, so does Greg Bear.

	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There is 1 message in this issue.

 Topics in today's digest:

      1. Another lojban site!
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:47:00 -0500 (EST)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Another lojban site!

I am creating the 1st all-Lojban website. Not much content yet, but I have
posted the skami jvoste there for comment, discussion, and correction.

Please feel free to correct my grammar or contribute content.

http://www.decadezero.org



-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. confirm unsubscribe
           From: =?iso-8859-1?q?gilbert=20read?= <readg@xxxxx.xx.xxx
      2. Re: Another lojban site!
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 04:12:54 +0000 (GMT)
   From: =?iso-8859-1?q?gilbert=20read?= <readg@xxxxx.xx.xxx
Subject: confirm unsubscribe

Dear onelist friends,
                    I wish to confirm that I wish to
unsubscribe from the lojban list. Thankyou yours
                    Gilbert
                     readg@xxxxx.xx.xx

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:11:32 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Another lojban site!

At 6:40 AM -0800 11/22/99, Jorge Llambias wrote:
>coi xod
>
>Nice page! A few grammar corrections:


ki'e ki'e .i mi galfi bai do


>>ni'o mi'a noi xabju la nu,IORK cu cmalu bende fo le balvi joibo
>>kulnekstropian selcinri
>
>You can't use names (like {kulnekstropian}) as part of a tanru.
>Also, I think {cinri} (an interest) makes more sense than
>{selcinri} (an interested person) there.

.i zo kulnekstropian cu fu'ivla


>BTW, what is Kulnekstropian?


.i do'o ka'e tcidu tu'i zoi .ueb http://www.extropy.com .ueb




>i pau le pamoi jikca boxna cu mo i le nomoi jikca boxna cu mo

.i la al,vn,to,flyr cu finti le si'o jikca boxna .i le pamoi jikca boxna cu
mintu le ka cange .i le nomoi jikca boxna cu na zasti

.i mu'o

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Punctuation
           From: "la kinin" <MTPEPPER@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: Punctuation
           From: John Cowan <jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. prosa gutci lixa
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:02:05 -0500
   From: "la kinin" <MTPEPPER@xxxxxxx.xxx>
Subject: Punctuation

Three questions:
Does the placement or repetition of a denpa bu between words affect their
meaning or grammaticality? (Is "lojban. .e" identical to "lojban. e" and
"lojban... ..   .. e"?)

Could stress be optionally marked by accents "", "", "", "", "" (which
are wholeheartedly ASCII and are supported in plain text) instead of
capitalization? This would make things look a lot prettier (pers vs peRIS,
elzabet vs eLIzabet), and would remove the extra burdon of learning the
capitol letters for a speaker of a language that did not use the Roman
alphabet (and the confusion of lowercase l with capitol I).

Could certain symbols "stand for" (and be grammatically equivalent to)
commonly used cmavo ("!" for ".ui", ":-)" for "zo'o", ">:(" for ".oi" and
"", "" for "lu", "li'u" (I believe I've seen this one already used.))?
They would be read the same way and would be only to simplify (and colorize)
writing.

If any of these have already been discussed, send them to me at
mtpepper@xxxxxxx.xxx and don't bore the jboste with them.

mi denpa lenu do spuda
.i co'o teka'a la taly'asis. flridas.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:59:57 -0500
   From: John Cowan <jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Punctuation

la kinin wrote:

> Does the placement or repetition of a denpa bu between words affect their
> meaning or grammaticality? (Is "lojban. .e" identical to "lojban. e" and
> "lojban... ..   .. e"?)

They all mean just the same.

> Could stress be optionally marked by accents "", "", "", "", "" (which
> are wholeheartedly ASCII and are supported in plain text) instead of
> capitalization?

Well, not technically ASCII.  Latin-1, yes.  It won't be part of the standard
orthography, but there's nothing preventing you from doing it.

In addition, capitalizing just the vowel is really enough, which reduces
learning burden.  However, case is such a fundamental part of the Latin alphabet
that unless you want to learn Lojban and nothing but (improbable) you will
end up learning both case forms.

> Could certain symbols "stand for" (and be grammatically equivalent to)
> commonly used cmavo ("!" for ".ui", ":-)" for "zo'o", ">:(" for ".oi" and
> "", "" for "lu", "li'u" (I believe I've seen this one already used.))?
> They would be read the same way and would be only to simplify (and colorize)
> writing.

Yes.  We sort of prefer to add the mark to the word, which means for example
that "!" can mark any attitudinal, thus "!ui !uo".

--

John Cowan	http://www.reutershealth.com		jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis vom dies! / Schliess eurer Aug vor heiliger Schau
Den er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
		-- Coleridge (tr. Politzer)


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:45:58 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lixa

ko'agoi le karni binpre pemi cu jinvi ledu'u vo'a dunli la meksuel.pyrkenz.
i vomoi co krefu lenu ko'a ba'o benji ko'egoi
lemi prosa mi seja'e lenu ko'a djica lenu mi cnegau ko'e
ku.e'inai .i re nanca cu temci lemu'e pamoi tugni fi lenu
leko'a karni ba gubgau ko'e keikei le cabna ku.oisai .i leni
di'u mi fanza cu banzu lenu mi na djica lenu ciskycusku za'u
karni prosa .i fu'ehe'unaizo'oru'e dapma ro binpre ku.o'onaifu'o


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. valsi
           From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. "place structure"
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
      3. Re: Another lojban site!
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 05:39:16 PST
   From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: valsi

zo jvopre
lu tanru darlu li'u
lu nelci be le sumti poi pluja li'u

co'o mi'e tsali


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:20:59 -0500 (EST)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: "place structure"

How do you say "places" or "place structure"? ve gismu??

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 03:43:10 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Another lojban site!

As soon as I advertised my new Lojban site the local telephone monopoly
killed the (DSL) connectivity for several days. It's back up, there's some
more content, and I instituted the corrections kindly provided by Jorge.

http://www.decadezero.org/

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 5 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: valsi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. gismu daski pe'a
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. Fwd: Three Dogs, Two Men (TLI Loglan perspective)
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: "place structure"
           From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
      5. Re: Fwd: Three Dogs, Two Men (TLI Loglan perspective)
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:28:24 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: valsi

>From: "Arnt Richard Johansen" <enkefalos@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>To: lojban@xxxxxxx.xxx
>Subject: [lojban] valsi
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 05:39:16 PST
>
>zo jvopre

zo jbopre ka'exu basti

>lu tanru darlu li'u

zo tergi'u go'e

>lu nelci be le sumti poi pluja li'u

zo be na sarcu .i ki'a sera'ade'u ku da de di broda
zo'u lebi'unai broda cu claxu .i pa'e .uiro'e pluja

>co'o mi'e tsali
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@xxxxxxx.xxx
><< text3.html >>


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:37:58 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: gismu daski pe'a

stidi lu gismu pevdaski morna li'u .a lu gimpevdaskymo'a li'u
.a lu sumti te setca li'u .a lu sumterse'a li'u .a lu leza'i
gismu fice'u li'u


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:30:40 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Fwd: Three Dogs, Two Men (TLI Loglan perspective)


>X-From_: rmcivor@xxxxxxxx.xxx Thu Nov 25 14:52:08 1999
>X-Sender: rmcivor@xx.xxxxxxx.xxx
>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 14:50:56 -0500
>To: lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx jcowan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx
>From: "Robert A. McIvor" <rmcivor@xxxxxxxx.xxx>
>Subject: Three Dogs, Two Men
>
>Hi,
>         I posed the problem recently discussed in the lojban list, with the
>following result. I do not know enough Lojban grammar to know if the
>interpretations are different enough that the problems  posed by some
>contributors to your list were real.  In any event, you may post this to
>your list if you wish (I discover I do not have posting privileges and have
>made no attempt to acquire such).  Anyway, I would be pleased to have your
>comments.
>
>This is what I wrote to JCB:
>
><<There is a discussion going on in the Lojban group at the moment as
>to how to render "Each of three dogs individually bit each of two men once"
>  I gather these are identifiable men and dogs.  The E is quite clear, but
>there has been some dispute about the Lojban version.>>
>
>The L seems also to me to be quite clear:
>
>Le te kangu pa ditka le to mrenu nena.
>(Each of) The three dogs bit (each of) the two men exactly once.
>
>....................
>
>1. Le te kangu pa ditka le to mrenu nena.
>    The three dogs bit the two men at one time.
>
>says what we want here because it explicitates as follows:
>
>2. Ra le te kangu pa ditka ra le to mrenu nena.
>3. Raba jie leu te kangu, pa ditka rabe jie leu to mrenu, na nebo.
>4. Raba jie leu te kangu, rabe jie leu to mrenu, nebo goi, ba pa ditka be
>nabo.
>
>the last being the fully quantified form that translates into logician's
>English as follows:
>
>4' For every x that is a member of the set of three men I have in mind
>paired with every y that is a member of the set of two dogs I have in mind
>there is exactly one z such that x bit y at time z.
>
>We suspect that this works because, if we shift the nebo term into *first*
>place in the prenex quantifier, we get, by the L rules of implicitation,
>the alternative meaning of the E sentence:
>
>5' There is exactly one z such that for every x that is a member of the set
>of three men I have in mind paired with every y that is a member of the set
>of two dogs I have in mind, x bit y at time z.
>
>That is, all the bitings--including the two bites made by each dog!--take
>place at one time.  In progressively more implicit L, this becomes:
>
>5. Nebo, raba jie leu te kangu, rabe jie leu to mrenu goi, ba pa ditka be
>nabo.
>6. Na nebo, raba jie leu te kangu pa ditka rabe jie leu to mrenu.
>7. Nena, le te kangu pa ditka le to mrenu.
>    At one time, the three dogs bit the two men.
>
>Thus, in implicit form, L word order makes all the difference.
>
>Jelhaisto!
>Hue Djim
>
>Jelhaisto,
>Hue Bab
>(rmcivor@xxxxxxxx.xxxx
>

----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:39:59 -0500
   From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <lojbab@xxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: "place structure"


>From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
>
>How do you say "places" or "place structure"? ve gismu??

te gismu would be the places of a gismu
te bridi would be the places of a bridi
There would be a corresponding place in brivla, but I don't have the lujvo
list handy at the moment, so I can't say which one.

lojbab
----
lojbab                     ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS***           lojbab@xxxxxx.xxx
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA               703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
   see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
   Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:49:31 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: Fwd: Three Dogs, Two Men (TLI Loglan perspective)

The Loglan way is interesting! They too have the implicit mapping defined
by the word ordering, but they are using an extra, index mapping (the time
z) which is logically irrelevant but scrambles the logical mapping between
the sets.

By putting the mapping itself into a prenex variable we may be able to make
the relationships explicit, and enable moe complex mappings easily, and all
without inventing new cmavo!

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
      2. vanci sanmi
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. prosa gutci lize
           From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      4. Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 18:55:32 -0000
   From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

Can anyone render this into either logical form using
only standard quantifiers (but quantification over possible
worlds is permissible) or lojban without using {kau}?

  What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.

--And.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:38:30 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: vanci sanmi

vanci sanmi zu'o mi citka fu'epo'o pisu'o pagbu bele lekne'i fu'o


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:38:02 PST
   From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: prosa gutci lize

ke'u duksyclira fale ca censycitsi .i .u'inai cuntu mutce .i
.u'u za'o citka ki'unai leka betfu xlali .i .o'unai kargu .i
la'edi'u genai srana gi zunti vau lo lanzu .a lo speni .i mi
tatpi ro censycitsi kuto'u .i da'i cesmau fa le citsi poi lei cmalyranji cu
zukte noda ze'aleke'a


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:20:27 -0500 (EST)
   From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

And Rosta scripsit:
>
> From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxx>
>
> Can anyone render this into either logical form using
> only standard quantifiers (but quantification over possible
> worlds is permissible) or lojban without using {kau}?
>
>   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.

I think that 2nd-order logic does the trick:

	Ef: Ex: Ey: fxy & I have x for dinner & y is in the fridge

Or in words:

	There is a relation between something and something else, such
	that the former is what I have for dinner and the latter is
	what is in the fridge.


--
John Cowan                                   cowan@xxxx.xxx
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      3. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
      4. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
      5. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      7. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      8. Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:08:54 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"


>   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.

  le nu mi citka roda poi mi citka ke'a cu jalge
   le nu rode poi ke'a nenri le lekmi'i cu nenri le lekmi'i
  "My eating that which I eat is a result of
   that which is in the fridge being in the fridge".

I think this may point to a general explication of {kau},
although in the general case the quantification
should be outside. It doesn't seem to make a lot of
difference in this case:

  roda poi mi citka ke'a ro de poi ke'a nenri le lekmi'i
  zo'u le nu mi citka da cu jalge le nu de nenri le lekmi'i


It seems to work for other indirect questions as well:

   la djan djuno le du'u makau klama
   John knows who came.

   ro da poi ke'a klama zo'u la djan djuno le du'u da klama
   For each x that came, John knows that x came.

co'o mi'e xorxes




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:22:20 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"


> >   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.
>
>I think that 2nd-order logic does the trick:
>
>	Ef: Ex: Ey: fxy & I have x for dinner & y is in the fridge
>
>Or in words:
>
>	There is a relation between something and something else, such
>	that the former is what I have for dinner and the latter is
>	what is in the fridge.

This seems to claim more than the original in one respect,
and less in another.

The original doesn't say that there is anything in the
fridge, or that I have anything for dinner. It may
describe a situation where I have pizza for dinner
because there is nothing in the fridge, or where I
have nothing for dinner because there is only a rotten
tomato in the fridge, or even where I have nothing
for dinner because there is nothing in the fridge.

Also, "there is a relation" seems too weak. Even though
the original doesn't explain fully what is the relation
it does say that one event is the cause and the other
event is the consequence.

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:54:39 -0000
   From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

> From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxx.xxxx.xxx>
>
> And Rosta scripsit:
> >
> > From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxx>
> >
> > Can anyone render this into either logical form using
> > only standard quantifiers (but quantification over possible
> > worlds is permissible) or lojban without using {kau}?
> >
> >   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.
>
> I think that 2nd-order logic does the trick:
>
> 	Ef: Ex: Ey: fxy & I have x for dinner & y is in the fridge
>
> Or in words:
>
> 	There is a relation between something and something else, such
> 	that the former is what I have for dinner and the latter is
> 	what is in the fridge.

That doesn't seem to render the meaning of the sentence in question.
For example, if something I have for dinner tastes like something
in the fridge, then your sentence is true, but it is not sufficient
to make my sentence true.

Try again. In the meantime I will too, but I keep on getting
interrupted or distracted before I can think my way all the way
to a solution.

--And.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:13:36 -0000
   From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

> From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
>
> >   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.
>
>   le nu mi citka roda poi mi citka ke'a cu jalge
>    le nu rode poi ke'a nenri le lekmi'i cu nenri le lekmi'i
>   "My eating that which I eat is a result of
>    that which is in the fridge being in the fridge".

I don't think this gets it. Yours (but not my original) would be
true if the fridge contents' being fridge contents had, say,
miraculously healed me of an inability to eat.

> I think this may point to a general explication of {kau},
> although in the general case the quantification
> should be outside. It doesn't seem to make a lot of
> difference in this case:
>
>   roda poi mi citka ke'a ro de poi ke'a nenri le lekmi'i
>   zo'u le nu mi citka da cu jalge le nu de nenri le lekmi'i
>
>
> It seems to work for other indirect questions as well:
>
>    la djan djuno le du'u makau klama
>    John knows who came.
>
>    ro da poi ke'a klama zo'u la djan djuno le du'u da klama
>    For each x that came, John knows that x came.

I think you need to add

    ... and for each x that did not come, John knows that x
          did not come

--And.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:44:34 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"


> > >   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.
> >
> >   le nu mi citka roda poi mi citka ke'a cu jalge
> >    le nu rode poi ke'a nenri le lekmi'i cu nenri le lekmi'i
> >   "My eating that which I eat is a result of
> >    that which is in the fridge being in the fridge".
>
>I don't think this gets it. Yours (but not my original) would be
>true if the fridge contents' being fridge contents had, say,
>miraculously healed me of an inability to eat.

I think you're right. What I would need is: "My eating that
which I eat, and not something else, is a result of
that which is in the fridge, and not something else, being
in the fridge".

Would that do it?

> > I think this may point to a general explication of {kau},
> > although in the general case the quantification
> > should be outside. It doesn't seem to make a lot of
> > difference in this case:
> >
> >   roda poi mi citka ke'a ro de poi ke'a nenri le lekmi'i
> >   zo'u le nu mi citka da cu jalge le nu de nenri le lekmi'i
> >
> >
> > It seems to work for other indirect questions as well:
> >
> >    la djan djuno le du'u makau klama
> >    John knows who came.
> >
> >    ro da poi ke'a klama zo'u la djan djuno le du'u da klama
> >    For each x that came, John knows that x came.
>
>I think you need to add
>
>     ... and for each x that did not come, John knows that x
>           did not come

Right, and I think I also need to add: "... and if nobody came,
then John knows that nobody came."

And I need to add something like that in the prenex version
of what I have for dinner, too, to cover the cases where
I had nothing for dinner or where there is nothing in the
fridge.

Indirect questions are complicated beasts.

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:58:29 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"



>> >    la djan djuno le du'u makau klama
>> >    John knows who came.
>> >
>> >    ro da poi ke'a klama zo'u la djan djuno le du'u da klama
>> >    For each x that came, John knows that x came.
>>
>>I think you need to add
>>
>>     ... and for each x that did not come, John knows that x
>>           did not come

After some more thought, I think a better rendering would
be: "For each x that came, and for no other x, John knows
that x came." This is because if Paul didn't come, but
John doesn't even know of Paul's existence, then saying
"John knows that Paul didn't come" sounds wrong. Better
to say that John doesn't know anything about Paul.

That way it also fits better with the dinner one.

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 18:58:56 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

> > It seems to work for other indirect questions as well:
> >
> >    la djan djuno le du'u makau klama
> >    John knows who came.
> >
> >    ro da poi ke'a klama zo'u la djan djuno le du'u da klama
> >    For each x that came, John knows that x came.
>
> I think you need to add
>
>     ... and for each x that did not come, John knows that x
>           did not come

But does the use of "makau" really imply either? As I understood it, "la
djan. djuno le du'u makau klama" meant something like
	John knows the/an answer to "Who came?"
Without implying that he knows the complete answer to that question. And,
of course, if both Bob and Alice came, that would be true even if John
only knew that Bob came.

	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:02:46 EST
   From: Pycyn@xxx.xxx
Subject: Re: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

<<
 >   What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge.

 I think that 2nd-order logic does the trick:

    Ef: Ex: Ey: fxy & I have x for dinner & y is in the fridge

 Or in words:

    There is a relation between something and something else, such
    that the former is what I have for dinner and the latter is
    what is in the fridge.


 --
 John Cowan    >>

This gets "is somehow related to" but hardly "depends on;" I suspect that {se
jitro}
is about as close as we can come in gismu and leave appropriate tanru to
others.  I doubt thatthe relation is between some one thing in the meal and
one thing in the refrigerator -- or between and clusters as individuals.
Rather the dependency is on the whole set (or maybe mass) of things in the
refrigerator (if there were only ham and chicken, I'd take chicken, but since
there is roast beef too, I'll take that, even though I'd probably take the
ham over the roast beef if those were all the available). Further, one
possibility (missing above) is surely that I have nothing to eat, because my
fridge is as empty as my wallet.   I suspect that the complexities could be
multiplied here beyond the simple version of even this line.  Presumably,
part of what is intended is that what I have for dinner will be mainly some
subset of what is in  my fridge with the elses picked appropriately from the
staples.  But that is only usual even for a carefully preplanned meal; here
the point is that the 'plan' for the meal will consist in selecting from the
content rather than seeing to it that the intended foods are aboard. Even all
this does not quite get to this sentence and the difference may just be
irrevocably {kau}, but I hope not. (something in {lae} maybe?
pc


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
      3. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
      4. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      5. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      6. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
      7. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:50:13 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

la xarmuj cusku di'e

>As I understood it, "la
>djan. djuno le du'u makau klama" meant something like
>	John knows the/an answer to "Who came?"
>Without implying that he knows the complete answer to that question.

I think it has to be "the" answer, the relevant one, not just
any answer, which would be too vague. If John knows that
someone came, but not who it was, then he does know an
answer to "who came?", namely "someone did", but not
the relevant answer.

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:32:52 -0000
   From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

> From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> la xarmuj cusku di'e
>
> >As I understood it, "la
> >djan. djuno le du'u makau klama" meant something like
> >	John knows the/an answer to "Who came?"
> >Without implying that he knows the complete answer to that question.
>
> I think it has to be "the" answer, the relevant one, not just
> any answer, which would be too vague. If John knows that
> someone came, but not who it was, then he does know an
> answer to "who came?", namely "someone did", but not
> the relevant answer.

I think you're each half-right: it has to be *a* relevant answer. So
"John" would be an adequate answer even if he was not the only one to
have come.

--And.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:20:23 -0500 (EST)
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

Call me a spoilsport, but I happen not to think that the inability to
exactly translate a given English sentence into a short Lojban bridi and
maintain all the cultural nuances is a problem.

I would use "fancu" with fo zo'e.


-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:31:57 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

la and cusku di'e

>I think you're each half-right: it has to be *a* relevant answer. So
>"John" would be an adequate answer even if he was not the only one to
>have come.

I'm not convinced. Suppose John and Paul were the only ones
who came, and Mary knows that John came but not that Paul
came. Now:

(1) Does Mary know who came?
     Yes, she knows that John came.

(2) Does Mary know who came?
     No, she only knows that John came, but not that Paul did too.

I find (2) acceptable and (1) suspect, but I suppose other people
can make other judgements.

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:08:16 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

la xod cusku di'e

>Call me a spoilsport, but I happen not to think that the inability to
>exactly translate a given English sentence into a short Lojban bridi and
>maintain all the cultural nuances is a problem.

I agree that is not a problem.

In this case, we don't even have that inability. We have a
perfectly good short translation that maintains roughly the
right nuances:

le nu mi citka makau cu jalge le nu makau nenri le lekmi'i

But what And is asking for is the logical structure underlying
this sentence, and that is an interesting question, whether
or not there is a short and neat Lojban form to express it.

co'o mi'e xorxes


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:42:20 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

> la and cusku di'e
>
> >I think you're each half-right: it has to be *a* relevant answer. So
> >"John" would be an adequate answer even if he was not the only one to
> >have come.

.ie

> I'm not convinced. Suppose John and Paul were the only ones
> who came, and Mary knows that John came but not that Paul
> came. Now:
>
> (1) Does Mary know who came?
>      Yes, she knows that John came.
>
> (2) Does Mary know who came?
>      No, she only knows that John came, but not that Paul did too.
>
> I find (2) acceptable and (1) suspect, but I suppose other people
> can make other judgements.

I would agree with you--in English. But I don't think the interpretation
of the Lojban should be rooted in debatable English semantics...

Accepting your way for the moment, how would the meaning implied with (1)
be rendered?

	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:01:45 -0000
   From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@xxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

> From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxx>
>
> la and cusku di'e
>
> >I think you're each half-right: it has to be *a* relevant answer. So
> >"John" would be an adequate answer even if he was not the only one to
> >have come.
>
> I'm not convinced. Suppose John and Paul were the only ones
> who came, and Mary knows that John came but not that Paul
> came. Now:
>
> (1) Does Mary know who came?
>      Yes, she knows that John came.
>
> (2) Does Mary know who came?
>      No, she only knows that John came, but not that Paul did too.
>
> I find (2) acceptable and (1) suspect, but I suppose other people
> can make other judgements.

There must be some issues of relevance that distinguish between
"all relevant answers" vs. "some relevant answers". But this is
a side issue, as far as I'm concerned, so I won't agonize about
it further here.

--And.


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________


There are 3 messages in this issue.

Topics in today's digest:

      1. RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"
           From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
      2. nuzba le damba pe la siatl
           From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxx>
      3. Re: nuzba le damba pe la siatl
           From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx


_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:03:56 PST
   From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: RE: "What I have for dinner depends on what there is in the fridge"

la xarmuj cusku di'e

>I would agree with you--in English. But I don't think the interpretation
>of the Lojban should be rooted in debatable English semantics...

I agree, it should be rooted in logic as far as possible. But we
haven't as yet been able to explicitly determine the logic
behind {kau}, even though the subject came up several times
before. My interpretation is not based on English semantics only,
it also applies to Spanish and very likely to other languages.
If there is a better interpretation for {kau}, then we should consider
the arguments in its favour, of course.

>Accepting your way for the moment, how would the meaning implied with (1)
>be rendered?

We should rephrase the indirect question so that what Mary
knows becomes the relevant answer. For example, "Mary
knows who came besides Paul."

But before deciding whether ot not {kau} should follow
the logic of indirect questions in English, we should be able
to make explicit what is the logic of indirect questions in
English (and other natlangs).

co'o mi'e xorxes



_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:40:57 -0500
   From: xod <xod@xxxx.xxxx
Subject: nuzba le damba pe la siatl

20 000 le prenu ba'o damba le na'e bredi pulji le si'o terdi vecnu tu'i la
siatl .i ku'i le ralji velsku nu'o cusku le du'u le pulji pu cecla be le
ckabu danti teka'a le panpi

20 000 people fought the police over Free Trade in Seattle -- but the
mainstream media isn't reporting that the cops fired rubber bullets at
peaceful protestors!

http://www.indymedia.org

-----
During the initial period after Falon is installed, you may feel
a little unused to it being in your body, you may have abdominal pain,
or feel like something is moving and have the sense of warmth, etc.
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/falun/eng/flg_5.htm#e1




_______________________________________________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:41:17 -0700 (MST)
   From: reciproc@xxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx.xx.xx
Subject: Re: nuzba le damba pe la siatl

la xod. pu ciska di'e

> 20 000 le prenu ba'o damba le na'e bredi pulji le si'o terdi vecnu tu'i la
> siatl .i ku'i le ralji velsku nu'o cusku le du'u le pulji pu cecla be le
> ckabu danti teka'a le panpi
>
> 20 000 people fought the police over Free Trade in Seattle -- but the
> mainstream media isn't reporting that the cops fired rubber bullets at
> peaceful protestors!

.i tu'i la kanadas. pu'i go'i

In Canada they are.


	co'omi'e xarmuj.



_______________________________________________________________________________
