Message 13: Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 12:20:20 BST Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki baikla pa'o le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u .i mi pu zdani zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra .i lu ma mo li'u na se spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. no'e cinri .i mi cfatse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi ni'o lemi jubme cu manku seja'e loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o lu le cmacrnalgebra li'u .i mi nelci le jubme .i mi nalmorji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a pensi .i misi'a se cinri so'a jutsi belo sinxa ciste be'o neda'i ga le me loi javni me'u nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati la jbolaz. no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co vreji lemi selcpe po'u le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau -------------------------------------- "OK, OK!", I say, barging through the door, bruising my shoulder, "What's all the fuss about?" I was sitting at home quietly, when I got a message saying that Veijo and Nick, who are at the Cafe Jbolaz, want to see me there. "What's up?" - no reply. They are deep in a discussion about Fraktur. Me? I can take it or leave it. I sit down at a table next to their's and wait for someone to notice me, either them or one of the people serving who might bring me some coffee. My table is dark with age. On it is carved "I", a heart, and "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and start to ponder. I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. That's the reason I'm studying Lojban, which is why I'm at the "Jbolaz". A waiter comes and takes my order for a large, strong coffee, and wanders off, not heading for the kitchen. Ah, it looks like they've spotted me at last. We say hello. Perhaps now I'll find out the reason for all the rush. -------------------------------------- Iain. & Message 7: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:28:07 BST Reply-To: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Sender: Lojban list From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Subject: Re: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK To: Bob LeChevalier As always, your jboselsku is challenging, but rewarding. Specific comments: > lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki baikla pa'o le vorme > fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u "baikla" = "compel come" - I would prefer "vilkla" = "powerful come" "pa'o le vorme" - I am still not clear whether "vorme" means a bit of wood etc., or a hole, or both. We often use it as if it means the first - if so, then "pa'o le vorme" is certainly not what you mean here! > .i mi pu zdani zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi > ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a > noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra I don't like "zdani zutse" = "nest sit". "se du'u" - .ue .a'i .i'e > .i mi cfatse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a I felt sure there was something wrong with "le me ko'a", but I think you have actually invented a new idiom with which we will now doubtless be plagued. > ni'o lemi jubme cu manku seja'e loni to'ercitno No, it's explicit both in lesson 1, and (now) in the gimste that "manku" is about illumination, not colour. Try "xekri". > .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o lu le cmacrnalgebra li'u I like "prami bu" (and I understood it!) > .i mi nalmorji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. > gi'e co'a pensi I'm not happy about "nalmorji" for "forget" in general, though I suppose it works in some cases. Here, I think I'd say "co'u morji" or even "de'a morji". > .i misi'a se cinri so'a jutsi belo sinxa ciste be'o neda'i > ga le me loi javni me'u nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra > gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu I"m not sure "da'i" works that way. "me loi javni" - how about "te javni"? > no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co vreji lemi selcpe po'u > le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo > nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a "comes to be a record of my request"? How about "veirci'a lu'e lemi selcpe"? kolin & Message 8: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:37:42 BST Reply-To: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Sender: Lojban list From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Subject: Re: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK To: Bob LeChevalier One more comment I remembered after I sent the previous mail: .i misi'a se cinri so'a jutsi belo sinxa ciste be'o neda'i ga le me loi javni me'u nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu I don't think "jutsi" is right here - look at its place structure. What's the answer to "fi ma"? What's wrong with "cmima" or "mupli"? kolin Message 1: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:23:01 -0400 Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: C.J.Fine%BRADFORD.AC.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:28:07 BST From: C.J.Fine%BRADFORD.AC.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >As always, your jboselsku is challenging, but rewarding. >Specific comments: >> lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki baikla pa'o le vorme >> fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u >"baikla" = "compel come" - I would prefer "vilkla" = "powerful come" >"pa'o le vorme" - I am still not clear whether "vorme" means a bit of >wood etc., or a hole, or both. We often use it as if it means the first - >if so, then "pa'o le vorme" is certainly not what you mean here! Someone had a nice lujvo for "doorway" just a few messages ago. Must have been Veijo or Nick. I forgot the lujvo, though. Some help I am. Ah, there it is. Veijo's {vorstu}. >> .i mi pu zdani zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi >> ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a >> noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra >I don't like "zdani zutse" = "nest sit". Yeah, this one deserves to be expanded out. >> .i mi cfatse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a >I felt sure there was something wrong with "le me ko'a", but I think you have >actually invented a new idiom with which we will now doubtless be plagued. It's actually an attempt at a sort of metonymy. I think {le me ko'a} is not the way to go, I greatly prefer {zo'epe ko'a}. I sort of think of {zo'epe} as almost like a LAhE word (of course, with different grammar) that introduces metonymy for the sumti it's on. {le me ko'a} seems dangerously close to just plain {ko'a}. ~mark Message 5: Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 12:45:45 +1000 Sender: Lojban list From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU Subject: Re: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Sep 92 12:20:20 BST." From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK >lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki baikla pa'o le vorme >fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u Why, Iain! You *are* the very model of a modern major-general! :) Your alternatives are vlikla, vilkla, and bikykla (powerful, violent, and sudden); I prefer {bikla}, which is underused anyway. I believe {vorme} is a doorway, rather than a piece of wood. I don't see why the piece of wood can't be a {vrogai} (doorway lid). I'm still not enamoured of {pezyjicla}, pe'a or not. But I have nothing better to offer. >.i lu ma mo li'u na se spuda I rather like {ma mo}. >.i mi cfatse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a I'd still prefer {co'a zutse}, leaving lujvo usage of {cfari} for cases where it doesn't correspond to {co'a} {le me ko'a} *is* the solution to metonymy - so much better than my {zu'i pe ko'a}. >gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi {da'i} indeed. Whaddaya have to do to get service round here? :) >.i mi nalmorji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. What Colin said: {de'a morji} >ga le me loi javni me'u nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra I don't like the {me} as much here --- to get an explictly adjectival use of {javni}, I'd use {loi javni co'e} Very cool, Iain. I wonder *why* we got you to the Jbolaz? Hmmm? :) Nick. Message 25: Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:10:10 BST Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: RE: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier > It's actually an attempt at a sort of metonymy. I think {le me ko'a} is > not the way to go, I greatly prefer {zo'epe ko'a}. I sort of think of > {zo'epe} as almost like a LAhE word (of course, with different grammar) > that introduces metonymy for the sumti it's on. {le me ko'a} seems > dangerously close to just plain {ko'a}. I've been reprimanded in the past for using {zo'e} with a relative clause, and told to use {da}. Admittedly, I think it was a {poi} relative clause, which may make all the difference. Neither {zo'epe ko'a} of {dape ko'a} seem to express the _definiteness_ that I wanted. I _could_ use {le} with a sumti, provided I insert an explicit quantifier {le pa da pe ko'a}, which is starting to get out of hand for a simple concept like "their's". The voting is still open on this one. Iain. Message 32: Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:34:30 -0400 Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0122%OASIS.ICL.CO.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:10:10 BST From: I.Alexander.bra0122%OASIS.ICL.CO.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >> It's actually an attempt at a sort of metonymy. I think {le me ko'a} is >> not the way to go, I greatly prefer {zo'epe ko'a}. I sort of think of >> {zo'epe} as almost like a LAhE word (of course, with different grammar) >> that introduces metonymy for the sumti it's on. {le me ko'a} seems >> dangerously close to just plain {ko'a}. >> >> ~mark >I've been reprimanded in the past for using {zo'e} with a relative >clause, and told to use {da}. Admittedly, I think it was a {poi} >relative clause, which may make all the difference. Neither {zo'epe ko'a} >of {dape ko'a} seem to express the _definiteness_ that I wanted. >I _could_ use {le} with a sumti, provided I insert an explicit quantifier >{le pa da pe ko'a}, which is starting to get out of hand for a simple >concept like "their's". The voting is still open on this one. Well, you have a good point. {zo'epe} is specifically anti-definite. It's good for metonymy in which you're really not trying to be specific, but are willing to be elliptical. For something like this, {dape} would be better, but still likely wouldn't get the definiteness across. There's {da voi srana}, but that's not really worth considering as a general solution. Too long. {le pada peko'a} doesn't seem all that bad to me, but then, in your shoes I would probably say to hell with definiteness and stick with {zo'epe}. Not that that's necessarily the right thing to do. I'm still less enthusiastic about {le me ko'a} than Nick is. ~mark Message 10: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:10:17 BST Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: CAFE RE: zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier la'o kafybarja. jbolaz .kafybarja zo'u >> lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki baikla pa'o le vorme >> fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u Colin: > "baikla" = "compel come" - I would prefer "vilkla" = "powerful come" Nick: > Why, Iain! You *are* the very model of a modern major-general! :) > Your alternatives are vlikla, vilkla, and bikykla (powerful, violent, and > sudden); I prefer {bikla}, which is underused anyway. I like {vilkla} for the moment. I might change my mind later, particularly in the light of di'e. Colin: > "pa'o le vorme" - I am still not clear whether "vorme" means a bit of > wood etc., or a hole, or both. We often use it as if it means the first - > if so, then "pa'o le vorme" is certainly not what you mean here! Mark: > Someone had a nice lujvo for "doorway" just a few messages ago. Must have > been Veijo or Nick. I forgot the lujvo, though. Some help I am. Ah, > there it is. Veijo's {vorstu}. Nick: > I believe {vorme} is a doorway, rather than a piece of wood. I don't see > why the piece of wood can't be a {vrogai} (doorway lid). I must admit I didn't really think about this one. Looking at the gismu list, it does look very much like a piece of wood. Veijo's {vorstu} was in a different context - {mi zvati le vorstu} is definitely _in_ the doorway, or even _by_ the door, whereas I'm coming _through_, moving the bit of wood in the process. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with something less (or more) controversial. Oh yes, how about {zo'a le vorme}? Nick, you've obviously got you're own ideas - see also {cadzu pa'o le cravro}. I'll let you guys argue about it :) >> .i mi pu zdani zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi >> ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a >> noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra Colin: > I don't like "zdani zutse" = "nest sit". Mark: > Yeah, this one deserves to be expanded out. OK, how about {mi vile zdani pu zutse li'o}? >> .i mi cfatse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a Nick: > I'd still prefer {co'a zutse}, leaving lujvo usage of {cfari} for cases > where it doesn't correspond to {co'a} OK, I'll buy that. Colin: > I felt sure there was something wrong with "le me ko'a", but I think you have > actually invented a new idiom with which we will now doubtless be plagued. Mark: > It's actually an attempt at a sort of metonymy. I think {le me ko'a} is > not the way to go, I greatly prefer {zo'epe ko'a}. I sort of think of > {zo'epe} as almost like a LAhE word (of course, with different grammar) > that introduces metonymy for the sumti it's on. {le me ko'a} seems > dangerously close to just plain {ko'a}. Nick: > {le me ko'a} *is* the solution to metonymy - so much better than my {zu'i > pe ko'a}. We've already had some debate about this. I'll leave it until da'i there is a more definite consensus. >> ni'o lemi jubme cu manku seja'e loni to'ercitno Colin: > No, it's explicit both in lesson 1, and (now) in the gimste that "manku" is > about illumination, not colour. Try "xekri". Oops, I missed that point. {xekri} does appear to be the way to say dark-coloured in Lojban. >> .i mi nalmorji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. >> gi'e co'a pensi Colin: > I'm not happy about "nalmorji" for "forget" in general, though I suppose it > works in some cases. Here, I think I'd say "co'u morji" or even "de'a morji". Nick: > What Colin said: {de'a morji} I like {de'a morji}. Sold. >> .i misi'a se cinri so'a jutsi belo sinxa ciste be'o neda'i >> ga le me loi javni me'u nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra >> gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu Colin: > I don't think "jutsi" is right here - look at its place structure. What's the > answer to "fi ma"? a) {fi ro ciste} b) Who cares? I read the definition ("open-ended") of {jutsi} to mean that there could be any number of sumti, including, I assumed, two. c) You're right. What I really meant was {klesi}. d) All of the above. Colin: > What's wrong with "cmima" or "mupli"? It wasn't what I wanted to say. I didn't want to talk about individual _instances_, but different _types_ of symbolic system. As above, {klesi} is what I was looking for. Colin: > I"m not sure "da'i" works that way. Neither am I, but it seemed the simplest way to suggest that it didn't much matter which type it was. {fi'o nalvai}? Colin: > "me loi javni" - how about "te javni"? Nick: > I don't like the {me} as much here --- to get an explictly adjectival use > of {javni}, I'd use {loi javni co'e} I like Colin's {te javni}. >> no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co vreji lemi selcpe po'u >> le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo >> nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a Colin: > "comes to be a record of my request"? > How about "veirci'a lu'e lemi selcpe"? Oops, I misread this one. {veigau}? Thank you for the various compliments, all. Iain. Message 24: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:23:40 -0400 Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: CAFE RE: zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0122%OASIS.ICL.CO.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:10:17 BST From: I.Alexander.bra0122%OASIS.ICL.CO.UK@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU >>> .i mi nalmorji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. >>> gi'e co'a pensi >Colin: >> I'm not happy about "nalmorji" for "forget" in general, though I suppose it >> works in some cases. Here, I think I'd say "co'u morji" or even "de'a morji". >Nick: >> What Colin said: {de'a morji} >I like {de'a morji}. Sold. Hate to sound silly, but what's {de'a}? I've checked all the cmavo lists I have on hand (hell, I run the PLS, I should have vaguely up-to-date ones). Did I miss a list somewhere along the line? I'd guess it's based on {denpa} somehow, but I can't find it anywhere. Is it somethhing like {co'u}? ~mark Message 27: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:25:09 BST Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: TECH (de'a) (was CAFE zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu) X-To: shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier > Hate to sound silly, but what's {de'a}? I've checked all the cmavo lists I > have on hand (hell, I run the PLS, I should have vaguely up-to-date ones). > Did I miss a list somewhere along the line? I'd guess it's based on > {denpa} somehow, but I can't find it anywhere. Is it somethhing like > {co'u}? > > ~mark {de'a} was published in JL16. I don't remember seeing it anywhere else, though it may have got mentioned in passing on the list. It's a bit like {co'u}, but rather than being halted permanently, the action is paused (or interrupted), and may be resumed later. I think it's {di'a} for the resumption, but check in JL16. Iain. Message 29: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:56:06 BST Sender: Lojban list From: Ivan A Derzhanski Subject: Re: CAFE RE: zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET, shoulson@CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU To: Bob LeChevalier {de'a} is the pausative actionsart; {co'u} is the cessative. {de'a morji} is `stop remembering (for the time being)'. {co'u morji} is `stop remembering (for good)'. Ivan Message 11: Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:05:19 BST Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier la jbolanzu kafybarja .i lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u .i mi vile zdani pu zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra .i lu ma mo li'u na se spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o lu le cmacrnalgebra li'u .i mi nelci le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a pensi .i misi'a se cinri so'a klesi belo sinxa ciste be'o nefi'o nalvai ga le te javni nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati la jbolaz. no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau -------------------------------------- "OK, OK!", I say, barging through the door, bruising my shoulder, "What's all the fuss about?" I was sitting at home quietly, when I got a message saying that Veijo and Nick, who are at the Cafe Jbolaz, want to see me there. "What's up?" - no reply. They are deep in a discussion about Fraktur. Me? I can take it or leave it. I sit down at a table next to their's and wait for someone to notice me, either them or one of the people serving who might bring me some coffee. My table is dark with age. On it is carved "I", a heart, and "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and start to ponder. I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. That's the reason I'm studying Lojban, which is why I'm at the "Jbolaz". A waiter comes and takes my order for a large, strong coffee, and wanders off, not heading for the kitchen. Ah, it looks like they've spotted me at last. We say hello. Perhaps now I'll find out the reason for all the rush. -------------------------------------- Iain. Message 21: Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:19:44 BST Sender: Lojban list From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Subject: Re: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu To: Bob LeChevalier Sorry Iain, more comments on your revision: > la jbolanzu kafybarja > .i mi co'a zutse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a - ku'o > gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a > gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi > .i misi'a se cinri so'a klesi belo sinxa ciste be'o nefi'o nalvai > ga le te javni nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra > gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu I read "nefi`o nalvai" as "(classes of system) having as an unimportant (feature)... Is that what you meant? > .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a > mi zvati la jbolaz. You still can't have "jbolaz" > no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u > le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo tsali ki'a? .i le ki'a > nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a > .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi I was sure "ze'apu naje ca" was wrong, but it isn't. It's the first time I've seen NA as opposed to NAI Kolin Message 4: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:20:34 BST Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0122@oasis.icl.co.uk Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: RE: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: c.j.fine@bradford.ac.uk X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier > > .i misi'a se cinri so'a klesi belo sinxa ciste be'o nefi'o nalvai > > ga le te javni nemu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra > > gi le mecritli noi se mupli loi rarna ja rutni bangu Colin: > I read "nefi`o nalvai" as "(classes of system) having as an unimportant > (feature)... Is that what you meant? I was going to give a (qualified) yes, but I still wasn't completely convinced myself, so I had another think about it. I *think* the technically correct solution is as follows. so'a klesi belo sinxa ciste be'o noi nalvai fa ledu'u ge'ikau ke'a te javni mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi ke'a mecritli mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu > > no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u > > le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo > tsali ki'a? .i le ki'a > > nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a I wasn't sure what to use for "strong coffee". I considered {carmi}, which may be the correct answer. But I wasn't sure what {tsali} was for. I notice your (and Andrew's) "le nu bandu" piece uses it where I would have used {vlipa} (more on this piece to follow). Are you complaining about the {le} in {le barda tsali bo ckafi}? I'm not sure why I used {le}, but on the other hand, I'm not sure what's wrong with it. Your other two corrections are spot on - thanks. Iain. Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:24:42 BST Sender: Lojban list From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK Subject: RE: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu To: Bob LeChevalier Iain replies to me on Iain: > > > no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u > > > le barda tsali bo ckafi gi'ebabo > > tsali ki'a? .i le ki'a > > > nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a > > I wasn't sure what to use for "strong coffee". I considered {carmi}, > which may be the correct answer. But I wasn't sure what {tsali} was for. > I notice your (and Andrew's) "le nu bandu" piece uses it where I > would have used {vlipa} (more on this piece to follow). I'm not sure, either. "tsali" is about a property and a standard, while "vlipa" is about an action, so you may be right on both counts. I still don't like "tasli ckafi" though. > Are you complaining about the {le} in {le barda tsali bo ckafi}? go'i > I'm not sure why I used {le}, but on the other hand, I'm not sure > what's wrong with it. kolin Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:16:39 BST Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: RE: RE: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: c.j.fine@bradford.ac.uk X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier la kolin. fain. cusku di'e > I'm not sure, either. "tsali" is about a property and a standard, while > "vlipa" is about an action, so you may be right on both counts. I still > don't like "tasli ckafi" though. Would you prefer {carmi ckafi} instead, then? mi'e .i,n. Message 25: Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:12:45 +0100 Sender: Lojban list From: CJ FINE Subject: RE: RE: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: I.Alexander.bra0122@oasis.icl.co.uk X-Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier Iain says: > la kolin. fain. cusku di'e > > I'm not sure, either. "tsali" is about a property and a standard, while > > "vlipa" is about an action, so you may be right on both counts. I still > > don't like "tasli ckafi" though. > > Would you prefer {carmi ckafi} instead, then? mi zo'u go'i mi'e kolin Message 14: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 15:16:00 EDT Sender: Lojban list From: "(John Cowan)" Subject: Re: CAFE.INT.REV zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: uunet!cuvmb.bitnet!LOJBAN@uunet.UU.NET To: Bob LeChevalier On "ze'apu naje ca"; this is indeed grammatical, and probably even preferable to "ze'apunai je ca", since "-nai" is generally understood to negate the preceding word only. Since "punai" is defined to be a contradictory negation (negating the whole bridi of which this is the tense), its use here is confusing. The fact is that PU+nai and its analogue FAhA+nai are warts left over from Loglan, and should probably be eschewed in all but the simplest constructs. & Message 3: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 12:45:45 GMT Reply-To: I.Alexander.bra0122@oasis.icl.co.uk Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0122@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: CAFE.INT.REV xire zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier la jbolanzu kafybarja .i lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u .i mi vile zdani pu zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra .i lu ma mo li'u na se spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a ku'o gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o lu le cmacrnalgebra li'u .i mi nelci le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a pensi .i misi'a se cinri so'a klesi belo sinxa ciste be'o noi nalvai fa ledu'u ke'a ge'ikau te javni mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati la jbolanzu no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u lo barda carmi bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau -------------------------------------- "OK, OK!", I say, barging through the door, bruising my shoulder, "What's all the fuss about?" I was sitting at home quietly, when I got a message saying that Veijo and Nick, who are at the Cafe Jbolaz, want to see me there. "What's up?" - no reply. They are deep in a discussion about Fraktur. Me? I can take it or leave it. I sit down at a table next to their's and wait for someone to notice me, either them or one of the people serving who might bring me some coffee. My table is dark with age. On it is carved "I", a heart, and "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and start to ponder. I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. That's the reason I'm studying Lojban, which is why I'm at the "Jbolaz". A waiter comes and takes my order for a large, strong coffee, and wanders off, not heading for the kitchen. Ah, it looks like they've spotted me at last. We say hello. Perhaps now I'll find out the reason for all the rush. -------------------------------------- Iain. Message 5: Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:20:46 GMT Sender: Lojban list From: I.Alexander.bra0125@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK Subject: CAFE.INT.REV xici zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u .i mi vile zdani pu zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra .i lu ma mo li'u na se spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a ku'o gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o lu le cmacrnalgebra li'u .i mi nelci le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a pensi .i mi si'a se cinri so'a klesi be lo sinxa ciste ra'anai ledu'u vo'e ge'ikau te javni mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati la jbolanzu no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u lo barda carmi bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau -------------------------------------- "OK, OK!", I say, barging through the door, bruising my shoulder, "What's all the fuss about?" I was sitting at home quietly, when I got a message saying that Veijo and Nick, who are at the Cafe Jbolaz, want to see me there. "What's up?" - no reply. They are deep in a discussion about Fraktur. Me? I can take it or leave it. I sit down at a table next to theirs and wait for someone to notice me, either them or one of the people serving who might bring me some coffee. My table is dark with age. On it is carved "I", a heart, and "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and start to ponder. I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. That's the reason I'm studying Lojban, which is why I'm at the "Jbolaz". A waiter comes and takes my order for a large, strong coffee, and wanders off, not heading for the kitchen. Ah, it looks like they've spotted me at last. We say hello. Perhaps now I'll find out the reason for all the rush. -------------------------------------- The only change from the previous version is to change the {noi nalvai fa} to {ra'anai}, which I think better expresses the fact that the qualities in question are irrelevant to the {nu cinri}. (If there any objections to this change, use your discretion in resolving them - I'm going to be de'a mrilu for a while.) I've no further update on my other kafybarja piece - go with the posted revision. Iain. Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 12:41:41 EST Sender: Lojban list From: Nick Nicholas Subject: Re: CAFE.INT.REV xici zoi pu. le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. pu X-To: I.Alexander.bra0125@oasis.icl.co.uk X- Lojban Mailing List To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: "I.Alexander.bra0125@OASIS.ICL.CO.UK" at Dec 18, 92 10:20 am >lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme >fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u I'd still prefer something more explicit than {pezyjicla}, like {raktu} or {cuntu}. >no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veigau lemi selcpe po'u veirgau >.i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau Perhaps {mukti}, and {sutrybai}. ******************************************************************************* A freshman once observed to me: Nick Nicholas am I, of Melbourne, Oz. On the edge of the Rubicon, nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo) men don't go fishing. Account expires end of February 1993. - Alice Goodman, _Nixon In China_ Mail me! Mail me! Mail me! Or don't!! JL17: lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco ku'o) sera'a ma pezyjicla li'u .i mi vile zdani pu zutse co cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u la jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi vi ra .i lu ma mo li'u na se spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a ku'o gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri loi ckafi mi ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o lu le cmacrnalgebra li'u .i mi nelci le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a pensi .i mi si'a se cinri so'a klesi be lo sinxa ciste ra'anai ledu'u vo'e ge'ikau te javni mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati la jbolanzu no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co veirgau lemi selcpe po'u lo barda carmi bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu falenu ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau -------------------------------------- "OK, OK!", I say, barging through the door, bruising my shoulder, "What's all the fuss about?" I was sitting at home quietly, when I got a message saying that Veijo and Nick, who are at the Cafe Jbolaz, want to see me there. "What's up?" - no reply. They are deep in a discussion about Fraktur. Me? I can take it or leave it. I sit down at a table next to theirs and wait for someone to notice me, either them or one of the people serving who might bring me some coffee. My table is dark with age. On it is carved "I", a heart, and "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and start to ponder. I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. That's the reason I'm studying Lojban, which is why I'm at the "Jbolaz". A waiter comes and takes my order for a large, strong coffee, and wanders off, not heading for the kitchen. Ah, it looks like they've spotted me at last. We say hello. Perhaps now I'll find out the reason for all the rush. -------------------------------------- 1. Colin: "le vorme" - I am still not clear whether "vorme" means a bit of wood etc., or a hole, or both. We often use it as if it means the first - if so, then "le vorme" is certainly not what you mean here! Nick: I believe "vorme" is a doorway, rather than a piece of wood. I don't see why the piece of wood can't be a "vrogai" (doorway lid). Lojbab: It is the doorway that is intended, but not in the sense of "doorframe". The new place structure for "vorme" has a place structure suggestive of route, emphasizing the two sides it connects, while noting that it is also within some larger structure, and hence not just any route. By comparison, "canko" emphasizes the wall in which it is found. I like "vrogai" and "vroca'o" and "vroge'u" for the cover and opening and frame, respectively. The gismu list has been clarified. 2. Colin: I felt sure there was something wrong with "le me ko'a", but I think you have actually invented a new idiom with which we will now doubtless be plagued. Mark: It's actually an attempt at a sort of metonymy. I think "le me ko'a" is not the way to go, I greatly prefer "zo'epe ko'a". I sort of think of "zo'epe" as almost like a LAhE word (of course, with different grammar) that introduces metonymy for the sumti it's on. "le me ko'a" seems dangerously close to just plain "ko'a". Nick: "le me ko'a" *is* the solution to metonymy - so much better than my "zu'i pe ko'a". Iain: I've been reprimanded in the past for using "zo'e" with a relative clause, and told to use "da". Admittedly, I think it was a "poi" relative clause, which may make all the difference. Neither "zo'epe ko'a" of "dape ko'a" seem to express the _definiteness_ that I wanted. I _could_ use "le" with a sumti, provided I insert an explicit quantifier "le pa da pe ko'a", which is starting to get out of hand for a simple concept like "theirs". The voting is still open on this one. Mark: Well, you have a good point. "zo'epe" is specifically anti-definite. It's good for metonymy in which you're really not trying to be specific, but are willing to be elliptical. For something like this, "dape" would be better, but still likely wouldn't get the definiteness across. There's "da voi srana", but that's not really worth considering as a general solution. Too long. "le pada peko'a" doesn't seem all that bad to me, but then, in your shoes I would probably say to hell with definiteness and stick with "zo'epe". Not that that's necessarily the right thing to do. I'm still less enthusiastic about "le me ko'a" than Nick is. Lojbab: I think "le me ko'a" is fine for original Lojban, but would probably have used "le ko'a co'e" as a translation for English "theirs" which more matches the 'possessive' implicature of the English. The "me" version is more vague, and could extend to include "ko'a" as well as things belonging to "ko'a". 3. Nick: I'd prefer something more explicit than "pezyjicla", like "raktu" or "cuntu". Lojbab: I agree. This smells malglico, since there is no clear implicature as to what is being 'stirred up' in the context. Transferring figurative uses between languages, if you must do so, should be confined to situations where the reader/listener can clearly identify the figurative values for the place structure of the 'figure' - in the case of "jicla" (stir), the agent/force doing the stirring, the 'fluid' being stirred, and the utensil/implement doing the stirring. For the context given, it isn't really even clear to me that Iain wants "jicla" as opposed to "terjicla" 4. Nick: ".i la'aru'e mi bazi facki le krinu belenu sutrygau" Perhaps "mukti", and "sutrybai". Lojbab: Iain has to decide: does he want an explanation for the summons, or does he really want to know the motive. Having multiple words for "why" makes you really need to think about what is really sought after. 5. .i mi si'a se cinri so'a klesi be lo sinxa ciste ra'anai ledu'u vo'e ge'ikau te javni mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu I too am interested in all kinds of symbolic system, whether formal ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural and artificial languages. Lojbab: There was much debate about this sentence on the net, with Iain eventually deciding to use "ra'anai". Not proposed in the discussion, and I think better and more lojbanic, is a logical connective approach. I also think that "all kinds of" is better expressed using a massifier gadri, since he is not really interested in the categories, but in the things comprising the various categories (or maybe he is a taxonomist): .i mi si'a se cinri piso'a loi sinxa ciste jugu'a te javni be mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra be'o gi mecritli be mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu The two "be" clauses might be more readable as parentheses: .i mi si'a se cinri piso'a loi sinxa ciste jugu'a te javni (to mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra toi) gi mecritli (to mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu toi)