Message 7: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:45:34 +1000 Sender: Lojban list From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU Subject: la nitcion. klama le kafybarja X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier .i mi se lidne la vei,on. ba'acu'i lenu nerkla le la jbolaz. kafybarja .i mi sutra joiku'i.o'a banli cadzu pa'o le cravro noi tilju je jadycau .i lenu mi pu kargau le vorme cu mlirocnandu gi'e sacri'a lenu mi catke .i le te vorme cu se gusni lo lecydo'i milxe gi'e se kufra cmalu .i panomei sa'enai.a'acu'i loi jubme .i mi zutse ne'a lo na'e se tsejbi jumbe {poi diklo le kumfa kojna gi'e stula'i le vorme ku'o} gi'e catlu loi zvapre .iza'a la vei,on. zutse vi le ragve kojna gi'enaipe'i zvaju'o mi .i ra zanfri .i'e.o'enai loi panci be loi vi ckafi .i mi zmanei loi tcati gi'e.o'o.aucu'i denpa lenu lo djabe'ipre cu jundi mi .i milxe savru gi'e ruble nungei .iku'i mi cabdei melu.i'inai li'u vau.u'uru'e .i lei bitmu cu se jadni loi carmi bo vrici joi na'e mitsarxe beja'i le tcaci .i le re cpare ka'amru poi mitkruca se punji fi le cravro gapru na minrysarxe .u'iru'e .i na go'i fa loi drata ke bitmu se punji nemu'u lo dembi poi vreta lo kicne ku'o jo'u lo slabu tcityta'o nesecu'u lu vi xagrai loi tauzba pe levi tcadu li'u ge'ujo'u lo befydai noi te ciska zo sindereluud. .i mi ca jundi le jbusfe pe mi .i te ciska so'ida nebau la lojban. e la bangrnesperanto .e le glibau .e.ueru'e le dotco .i le dotco cu se ciska ta'i la fraktur .i mi xebni la fraktur .i mi djica (lenu ciska fi le jbusfe fe lu mi la fraktur xebni mi'e kilrois. li'u kei) gi'enai ca ponse lo ve ciska befi loi mudri .i mi ka'e lebna lo cpare ja bisli kilmru le zunle bitmu .i mi co'i morji le xajmi pe lei bisli kilmru jgari rlcisge'upre .iku'i lenu le xajmi cu jboselsku na se snada mi .isemu'ibo mi pensi sanga le se finti be la suZAN.vegas.be'o peme'e lu le la tom. gusta li'u .i lenu go'i cu se dicra lenu lo djabe'ipre noi .uacu'i xindo cu klama mi gi'e cisma bacru lu cticpe ma doi lojbo ga'icu'i li'u .i mi co'a se spaji catlu le be'ipre .i mi nelci le be'ipre .i mi mutce nelci co se trina le be'ipre ja'e lenu mi na spuda ri .iseki'ubo ri cmila joiku'i milxe bo se fanza bacru lu be'ebe'e xaupre zo'o ctidji ja pixydji ma li'u .i mi spuda barcu lu je'eki'e pendo .u'u si ba'edo'u.u'u .u'ise'i go'i lo tcati li'u .i le be'ipre goi ko'a cu bacru lu go'i lo tcati pele'a ma li'u .i mi lu .aicu'i do ma stidi li'u .i ko'a lu .e'a la kukytcat. noi vi purlamrai terve'u li'u .i mi lu .i'e ko bevri le la kukytcat. tcati li'u .i ko'a bacru lu baziba'o go'i .oinai li'u gi'e cliva mu'i lenu bevri nagi'e tavla lo drata zutse .ipujecabo lu'i le jukpa kuce le patlu'i lu'u nevi le jupku'a cu cladu joi selzdi dabysnu .i le jukpa cu so'uroi batykla gi'e ve jivrei le se casnu lei zvati .i.aucai mi na te preti .i le barjyjatna noi dasni lo jikri'i taurgunma ca tavla la vei,on. .i mi xance rinsa la vei,on. i ko'a spuda rinsa gi'e nupre lenu bazi kansa mi kei mi .i loi cnino cu nerkla gi'e cladu rinsa loi no'e cnino noi na'oca'o te lisri .i mi na .ai cabdei ve lisri .i mi .a'icu'i cabdei xebni la fraktur. Free Translation into English. I've been preceeded by Veijo in entering Cafe Jbolaz. I swiftly and yet grandly make my entrance through the front door, which is heavy and plain. Opening the door took a bit of effort, and made it necessary to push. What is behind the door is illuminated by mild afternoon light, and is comfortably small. There's about ten tables, I dunno. I sit at a table with noone by it, in the corner and next to the door, and look at the people here. I see Veijo sitting in the opposite corner, and I don't think he's noticed I'm here. He's getting high on the coffee smells. I prefer tea, and I'm waiting --- not that anxiously --- for a waiter to notice me. There's some noise and a bit of merriment. But today, I'm feeling private --- uh, sorry about that. The walls are decorated by miscellanea, unharmonious by the usual standards. The two climbing axes above the front door aren't quite symmetrical. Nor are the other objects on the walls --- a pea on a cushion, for example, an old signboard saying "Best Tailor in the Whole Town", and a belt with "Cinderelwood" written on it. I look at the table-top where I'm sitting. It's been inscribed with lots of stuff, in Lojban, Esperanto, English, even German. The German stuff is in Fraktur script. I hate Fraktur. I want to write "Kilroy woz here and hates Fraktur", but I haven't got something to write on wood with. I could take an ice-pick or climbing-pick from the wall to my left. I recall the joke about the ice-pick wielding bisexuals, but it doesn't go into Lojban too well. So I start mentally singing Suzanne Vega's _Tom's Diner_. I am interrupted by a waiter, Indian I suppose, who comes to me and says, smiling: "What'll ya have to eat, Lojban-lover?" I look at the waiter, surprised. I like the waiter. I really like the waiter. I'm so attracted to the waiter, I forget to answer. So s/he says, laughing but a bit annoyed, "Hello? Earth to Goodfellow Lojbanist? What'll ya have to eat or drink?" I answer "I hear you, and thank *you*, friend (shgeez) --- Oh, not shgeez about you, shgeez about not answering; what a klutz I am! :) I'll have tea." "What kind of tea?" "*shrug* What do you recommend?" "Oh, you could have a Tasty-T; it's our most recent purchase." "OK, get us a Tasty-T." The waiter says "Consider it done", and leaves, not to get it, but to talk to other patrons. While this has been going on, the cook and the dishwasher in the kitchen have been loudly and enthusiastically arguing. The cook occasionally comes out and asks the patrons for their opinion about the topic he's debating. I *really* don't want to be asked. The manager, wearing a suit, is talking to Veijo. I wave at Veijo; he waves back and promises me he'll be with me in a moment. New people enter and loudly greet those already there, who are typically telling stories. I don't feeling like being told any stories today. Today, I feel like hating Fraktur. --- 'Dera me xhama t"e larm"e, T Nick Nicholas, EE & CS, Melbourne Uni Dera mbas blerimit | nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: Nicxjo) Me xhama t"e larm"e! | Milaw ki ellhnika/Esperanto parolata/ Lumtunia nuk ka ngjyra tjera.' | mi ka'e tavla bau la lojban. je'uru'e - Martin Camaj, _Nj"e Shp'i e Vetme_ | *d'oh!* Message 20: Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 09:57:28 -0400 Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: la nitcion. klama le kafybarja X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: nsn%MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:45:34 +1000 Nick, my lad, what can I say? That's one hell of a good start. It was stylistically interesting, and understandable. I particularly liked your use of UIs and COIs, as made clearer by the translation (yes, I read it in parallel with the translation. Sue me). Some typos, and I haven't fine-tooth-combed the grammar, etc. of the whole thing yet, but on the whole, wonderful. I note you've taken to bracketing nu/kei and poi/ku'o clauses. Threw me for a second, but who's to gainsay you? Those symbols mean nothing wrt the lojban, and it's probably very helpful; terminators on those are often missed. You seem to be using {cabdei} in tanru as sort of a pseudo-tense, as a contraction for {ca le cabdei}. Well, tanru can be considered, among other things, to be filling places in, even places not normally present (like {ca...}), so that works fine. Not sure it'd be my preference were I writing it (too natlang-sounding or something), but I understood it fine, it's certainly sensible, and I wasn't writing it. I like {mi cabdei melu.i'inai li'u vau.u'uru'e}. Very good use of {me}. Not sure what you're repenting of, but you don't have to say. Maybe {mela'elu .i'inai li'u}, but that's nitpicking. In situations like that, I'd be likely to use {la'e} or {lu'e}, but not neither (e.g. Colin once referred to {zi'e}-less linked relative clauses as being {zi'e zei cau}, where I'd have said {melu'ezo zi'e claxu}). Personal opinion, nothing more. What's the {mit-} in {mitsarxe} and {mitkruce} doing? I *think* in the {mitkruce} you mean that they cross each other, i.e. are mutual crossers. Wouldn't {simxu} be better (yes, lojbab, *that's* why I wanted a better hyphenator for {simxu}: it'll need it). >.i lei bitmu cu se jadni loi carmi bo vrici joi na'e mitsarxe beja'i le tcaci >.i le re cpare ka'amru poi mitkruca se punji fi le cravro gapru na minrysarxe >.u'iru'e >.i na go'i fa loi drata ke bitmu se punji nemu'u lo dembi poi vreta lo kicne >ku'o jo'u lo slabu tcityta'o nesecu'u lu vi xagrai loi tauzba pe levi >tcadu li'u Doesn't the {na go'i} *negate* the previous sentence, so that you're saying "The climbing axes ... weren't symmetrical. Which is not the case for the objects hanging on the other walls..." --- i.e. they *were* symmetrical! More later, if/when I think of it. ~mark Message 37: Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:08:46 +1000 Sender: Lojban list From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU Subject: Re: la nitcion. klama le kafybarja X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 31 Aug 92 09:57:28 -0400." >Nick, my lad, what can I say? An innnteresting question! >That's one hell of a good start. A satisfactory answer to your innnteresting question :) Of course, it had *nothing* to do with cafe navigation, and everything to do with the illegible volume of Heine I bought Friday --- but this is the kind of thing that can let your fancy (and your Lojban!) fly. >I note you've taken to bracketing nu/kei and poi/ku'o clauses. Threw me >for a second, but who's to gainsay you? Those symbols mean nothing wrt the >lojban, and it's probably very helpful; terminators on those are often >missed. That's true, and when they get missed in JL, that's when I decide some action has to be taken. I doubt spoken Lojban will *ever* get these terminators right; they are very far removed from our human grasp of grammar. They are, however, one of the main assets of Lojban as a distinct language, and they need to be helped along in written Lojban; if occasional bracketting is what it takes, so be it. >I like {mi cabdei melu.i'inai li'u vau.u'uru'e}. Very good use of {me}. >Not sure what you're repenting of, but you don't have to say. I was regretting being such a misery-guts to the audience, instead of getting on with the job of navigating. >What's the {mit-} in {mitsarxe} and {mitkruce} doing? >Wouldn't {simxu} be better You will find it very hard to believe that I've used the term {mitsimxu} so often, I think of {mit}, not {sim}, as the {simxu} rafsi --- but it's true, I tell you! :) >Doesn't the {na go'i} *negate* the previous sentence I might have to look up the negation paper for that. {go'i} doesn't replicate all details of the previous jufra: it leaves out attitudinals, for example. I don't know if it'd also leave out {na}. Actually, I doubt it, but seem to recall that it did in the negation paper. Now, the following .sig is, um, a taaaad obscene, and I'm not planning on using it that often, but be warned. Consider it a coming of age birthday present to myself :) Lojban translations are welcome, though not solicited :) %^) %^) %^) %") %^) %^) %^| %^) %^) B^) %^) %^) %^) ;^) %^) %^) %^[ %^) %^) 8) NICK NICHOLAS!! nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au ! IRC: nicxjo ! Melbourne Uni, Oz!!! "I've been told that I'm sexy and cute, intelligent and witty with a great sense of humour, but then people will say anything when they're about to come in your mouth." Judes, idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk <9qfmbqh5@cck.coventry.ac.uk> Message 35: Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:04:44 -0500 Sender: Lojban list From: VILVA@VIIKKI21.HELSINKI.FI Subject: Re: la nitcion. klama le kafybarja X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU >>Mark: >>Nick, my lad, what can I say? > > An innnteresting question! > >>That's one hell of a good start. In substance I agree with Mark. I could formulate it otherwise but being a little bit in a hurry... Your rant made me realize how far I have still got to go. > Of course, it had *nothing* to do with cafe navigation, and everything to > do with the illegible volume of Heine I bought Friday --- but this is > the kind of thing that can let your fancy (and your Lojban!) fly. What's the trouble with Fraktura. Used to read tomes of Goethe in Fraktura while commuting to work. Heine too, though not much. > >I note you've taken to bracketing nu/kei and poi/ku'o clauses. Threw me > >for a second, but who's to gainsay you? Those symbols mean nothing wrt the > >lojban, and it's probably very helpful; terminators on those are often > >missed. > > That's true, and when they get missed in JL, that's when I decide some > action has to be taken. I doubt spoken Lojban will *ever* get these > terminators right; they are very far removed from our human grasp of > grammar. Well, I don't know. Think of the German way of taking bits and pieces and transporting them to the end of a clause. Take e.g. the verb {auf/hoeren}. That {auf} is quite often positioned like a right bracket. And people do it on the fly. Not? The bits just kind of snap in place. During the last years at school I didn't have any special difficulties in remembering to insert the bits at the correct positions. It just takes practice and none of us has it to an extent comparable to a 7 year course with 4 lessons a week and all the homework that goes with it. If I didn't know better, I'd say German is impossible to speak correctly. > >Doesn't the {na go'i} *negate* the previous sentence > > I might have to look up the negation paper for that. {go'i} doesn't replicate > all details of the previous jufra: it leaves out attitudinals, for example. > I don't know if it'd also leave out {na}. Actually, I doubt it, but seem > to recall that it did in the negation paper. If I remember correctly, {go'i} doesn't replicate the {na}, so {na go'i} just repeats the negation. ---- Nick, navigation or not, I liked this (or the small bits I have had time to grok in fullness). You just keep writing these rants and I'll concentrate on finding my true voice with the help of my tiny exercise fragments. Veijo ------------------------------------------------------------------ Veijo Vilva vilva@viikki21.helsinki.fi Message 43: Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:56:31 -0400 Sender: Lojban list From: "Mark E. Shoulson" Subject: la nitcion. klama le kafybarja X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: VILVA%VIIKKI21.HELSINKI.FI@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU's message of Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:04:44 -0500 Veijo on Nick on me: >> >Doesn't the {na go'i} *negate* the previous sentence >> >> I might have to look up the negation paper for that. {go'i} doesn't replicate>> all details of the previous jufra: it leaves out attitudinals, for example. >> I don't know if it'd also leave out {na}. Actually, I doubt it, but seem >> to recall that it did in the negation paper. > > If I remember correctly, {go'i} doesn't replicate the {na}, so > {na go'i} just repeats the negation. I just looked in the negation paper. You're right, {na go'i} replaces the {na}, so there's no double negation. ~mark Message 5: Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:16:13 +1000 Sender: Lojban list From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU Subject: Re: la nitcion. klama le kafybarja X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Sep 92 03:04:44 EST." From: VILVA@VIIKKI21.HELSINKI.FI > Your rant made me realize how far I have still got to go. Not really. We just happen to have different styles, and your style (even if in the guise of an etude) still seems to me more harmoniously Lojbanic than mine. I'm not at all convinced I've left the orbit of Natlangs (even if the language in question is not always English). You, on the other hand, not only *have*, but also *understand* that you have. Your comprehension of the underlying expressional problems is such that, whether or not you have far to go, you are definitely pointing in the right direction. I'm not as sure I am. Of course, I'm too busy having *fun* writing to be sure :) > What's the trouble with Fraktura. I used to wear glasses (still do, occasionally) and now I know why. Ick. Dreadful, illegible script begotten of elf tausend Teufel :) daily.grebyn.com> mail nick Subject: Tuesday night comment on your rant Well, we got down to Cinderelwood's belt in your text. Mostly well understood. Following is where we had problems (no idea if these comments are redundant to what has appeared on the List, since I'm not trying to read much. noticed - you used zvaju'o and Sylvia guessed intent from context. Suggestied to use zgana or jundi as the major basis of the word. "He's getting high on the coffee smells" - No one could figure out anything about what you were trying to convey with that attitudinal, even after checking the English. There's no se'inai, so this is YOUR attitude, and I see no semantic suggestion on "high" even if I assume the se'inai was supposed to be there. Explanation? private - you used a me for this - was there a reason for not using sivni or a lujvo thereon, which is intended to be associated with this attitudinal. mitkruca - did you want mutual vs. identical here symmetrical - did you consider lanxe vs sarxe. The English suggests the former and the minra was a bit confusing. Doesn't anyone like dukti? (dukti-mapti lanxe/sarxe?) At least one gismu typo, but I didn't write it down. Maybe more next week. Sylvia is thinking about writing something, but cannot get into the decor/ atmosphere/conversation with other Lojbanists thread that is going on. She is thinking about some other ways to introduce her story, but basically wants to find an audience within the coffeeshop (a worker, or some other patrons - but NOT real lojbo types) and an excuse to be telling it. lojbab Message 1: To: lojbab@grebyn.com (Logical Language Group) Cc: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU, fred@wam.umd.edu, nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Tuesday night comment on your rant In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Sep 92 00:26:36 -0400." Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 16:07:45 +1000 From: nsn@mullian.ee.Mu.OZ.AU >noticed - you used zvaju'o and Sylvia guessed intent from context. Suggestied >to use zgana or jundi as the major basis of the word. Possibly, though I think zvaju'o, or at most nunzvaju'o, is clear. >"He's getting high on the coffee smells" - No one could figure out anything >about what you were trying to convey with that attitudinal, even after checking >the English. The .o'enai means I don't empathise, because that's what I take emotional closeness to mean. >I see no semantic suggestion on "high" even if I assume the se'inai was >supposed to be there. Explanation? The translation was a bit loose? :) >private - you used a me for this - was there a reason for not using sivni >or a lujvo thereon, which is intended to be associated with this attitudinal. I was unaware of it. The word would have to be sivyci'o, and not sivni. But I think me+UI is a powerful construct, worth preserving. >mitkruca - did you want mutual vs. identical here Yes, the {mit} is an error for {sim} >symmetrical - did you consider lanxe vs sarxe. The English suggests the former >and the minra was a bit confusing. Doesn't anyone like dukti? >(dukti-mapti lanxe/sarxe?) minra will have to be there because the equilibrium is one of reflection same- ness. lanxe is clearly better than sarxe, and maybe te minra rather than minra, but any expression for symmetrical will have to have a wild metaphor. >Sylvia is thinking about writing something, but cannot get into the decor/ >atmosphere/conversation with other Lojbanists thread that is going on. As Mark's piece shows, one needn't use this current thread. Nick. Message 9: Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:29:01 +1100 Sender: Lojban list From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU Subject: CAFE.INT.REV: Cafe Piece #1 (Fraktur Rant) X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Bob LeChevalier .i mi se lidne la vei,on. ba'acu'i lenu nerkla le la loblaz. kafybarja .i mi sutra joiku'i.o'a banli cadzu pa'o la'ele cravro noi tilju je jadycau .i lenu mi pu kargau le vorme cu mlirocnandu gi'e sacri'a lenu mi catke .i le te vorme cu se gusni lo lecydo'i milxe gi'e se kufra cmalu .i panomei sa'enai.a'acu'i loi jubme .i mi zutse ne'a lo na'e se tsejbi jubme {poi diklo le kumfa kojna gi'e stula'i le vorme ku'o} gi'e catlu loi zvapre .iza'a la vei,on. zutse vi le ragve kojna gi'enaipe'i zvaju'o mi .i ra zanfri .i'e.o'enai loi panci be loi vi ckafi .i mi zmanei loi tcati gi'e.o'o.aucu'i denpa lenu lo djabe'ipre cu jundi mi .i milxe savru gi'e ruble nungei .iku'i mi cabdei melu.i'inai li'u vau.u'uru'ero'a .i lei bitmu cu se jadni loi carmi bo vrici joi na'e simlanxe beja'i le tcaci .i le re cpare ka'amru poi simkruca se punji fi le cravro gapru na minrysarxe .u'iru'e .i na go'i fa loi drata ke bitmu se punji nemu'u lo dembi poi vreta lo kicne ku'o jo'u lo slabu tcityta'o nesecu'u lu vi xagrai loi tauzba pe levi tcadu li'u ge'ujo'u lo befydai noi te ciska zo sindereluud. .i mi ca jundi le jbusfe pe mi .i te ciska so'ida nebau la lojban. e la bangrnesperanto .e le glibau .e.ueru'e le dotco .i le dotco cu se ciska ta'i la fraktur .i mi xebni la fraktur .i mi djica {lenu ciska fi le jbusfe fe <> kei} gi'enai ca ponse lo ve ciska befi loi mudri .i mi ka'e lebna lo cpare ja bisli kilmru le zunle bitmu .i mi co'i morji le xajmi pe lei bisli kilmru jgari relcisge'upre .iku'i lenu le xajmi cu jboselsku na se snada mi .isemu'ibo mi pensi sanga le se finti be la suZAN.vegas.be'o peme'e <> .i lenu go'i cu se dicra lenu lo djabe'ipre noi .uacu'i xindo cu klama mi gi'e cisma bacru <> .i mi co'a se spaji catlu le be'ipre .i mi nelci le be'ipre .i mi mutce nelci co se trina le be'ipre ja'e lenu mi na spuda ri .iseki'ubo ri cmila joiku'i milxe bo se fanza bacru <> .i mi spuda barcu <> .i le be'ipre goi ko'a cu bacru <> .i mi <> .i ko'a <> .i mi <> .i ko'a bacru <> li'u gi'e cliva mu'i lenu bevri nagi'e tavla lo drata zutse .ipujecabo lu'i le jukpa kuce le patlu'i lu'u nevi le jupku'a cu cladu joi selzdi dabysnu .i le jukpa cu so'uroi batykla gi'e te jivrei le se casnu folei zvati .i.aucai mi na ve preti .i le barjyjatna noi dasni lo jikri'i taurgunma ca tavla la vei,on. .i mi xance rinsa la vei,on. i ko'a spuda rinsa gi'e nupre lenu bazi kansa mi kei mi .i loi cnino cu nerkla gi'e cladu rinsa loi no'e cnino noi na'oca'o te lisri .i mi na .ai cabdei ve lisri .i mi .e'icu'i cabdei xebni la fraktur. Free Translation into English. I've been preceeded by Veijo in entering Cafe Loblaz. I swiftly and yet grandly make my entrance through the front door, which is heavy and plain. Opening the door took a bit of effort, and made it necessary to push. What is behind the door is illuminated by mild afternoon light, and is comfortably small. There's about ten tables, I dunno. I sit at a table with noone by it, in the corner and next to the door, and look at the people here. I see Veijo sitting in the opposite corner, and I don't think he's noticed I'm here. He's getting high on the coffee smells. I prefer tea, and I'm waiting --- not that anxiously --- for a waiter to notice me. There's some noise and a bit of merriment. But today, I'm feeling private --- uh, sorry about that. The walls are decorated by miscellanea, unharmonious by the usual standards. The two climbing axes above the front door aren't quite symmetrical. Nor are the other objects on the walls --- a pea on a cushion, for example, an old signboard saying "Best Tailor in the Whole Town", and a belt with "Cinderelwood" written on it. I look at the table-top where I'm sitting. It's been inscribed with lots of stuff, in Lojban, Esperanto, English, even German. The German stuff is in Fraktur script. I hate Fraktur. I want to write "Kilroy woz here and hates Fraktur", but I haven't got something to write on wood with. I could take an ice-pick or climbing-pick from the wall to my left. I recall the joke about the ice-pick wielding bisexuals, but it doesn't go into Lojban too well. So I start mentally singing Suzanne Vega's _Tom's Diner_. I am interrupted by a waiter, Indian I suppose, who comes to me and says, smiling: "What'll ya have to eat, Lojban-lover?" I look at the waiter, surprised. I like the waiter. I really like the waiter. I'm so attracted to the waiter, I forget to answer. So s/he says, laughing but a bit annoyed, "Hello? Earth to Goodfellow Lojbanist? What'll ya have to eat or drink?" I answer "I hear you, and thank *you*, friend (shgeez) --- Oh, not shgeez about you, shgeez about not answering; what a klutz I am! :) I'll have tea." "What kind of tea?" "*shrug* What do you recommend?" "Oh, you could have a Tasty-T; it's our most recent purchase." "OK, get us a Tasty-T." The waiter says "Consider it done", and leaves, not to get it, but to talk to other patrons. While this has been going on, the cook and the dishwasher in the kitchen have been loudly and enthusiastically arguing. The cook occasionally comes out and asks the patrons for their opinion about the topic he's debating. I *really* don't want to be asked. The manager, wearing a suit, is talking to Veijo. I wave at Veijo; he waves back and promises me he'll be with me in a moment. New people enter and loudly greet those already there, who are typically telling stories. I don't feeling like being told any stories today. Today, I feel like hating Fraktur. --- 'Dera me xhama t"e larm"e, T Nick Nicholas, EE & CS, Melbourne Uni Dera mbas blerimit | nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo) Me xhama t"e larm"e! | Milaw ki ellhnika/Esperanto parolata/ Lumtunia nuk ka ngjyra tjera.' | mi ka'e tavla bau la lojban. je'uru'e - Martin Camaj, _Nj"e Shp'i e Vetme_ | *d'oh!* JL17: .i mi se lidne la vei,on. ba'acu'i lenu nerkla le la loblaz. kafybarja .i mi sutra joiku'i.o'a banli cadzu pa'o la'ele cravro noi tilju je jadycau .i lenu mi pu kargau le vorme cu mlirocnandu gi'e sacri'a lenu mi catke .i le te vorme cu se gusni lo lecydo'i milxe gi'e se kufra cmalu .i panomei sa'enai.a'acu'i loi jubme .i mi zutse ne'a lo na'e se tsejbi jubme {poi diklo le kumfa kojna gi'e stula'i le vorme ku'o} gi'e catlu loi zvapre .iza'a la vei,on. zutse vi le ragve kojna gi'enaipe'i zvaju'o mi .i ra zanfri .i'e.o'enai loi panci be loi vi ckafi .i mi zmanei loi tcati gi'e.o'o.aucu'i denpa lenu lo djabe'ipre cu jundi mi .i milxe savru gi'e ruble nungei .iku'i mi cabdei melu.i'inai li'u vau.u'uru'ero'a .i lei bitmu cu se jadni loi carmi bo vrici joi na'e simlanxe beja'i le tcaci .i le re cpare ka'amru poi simkruca se punji fi le cravro gapru na minrysarxe .u'iru'e .i na go'i fa loi drata ke bitmu se punji nemu'u lo dembi poi vreta lo kicne ku'o jo'u lo slabu tcityta'o nesecu'u lu vi xagrai loi tauzba pe levi tcadu li'u ge'ujo'u lo befydai noi te ciska zo sindereluud. .i mi ca jundi le jbusfe pe mi .i te ciska so'ida nebau la lojban. e la bangrnesperanto .e le glibau .e.ueru'e le dotco .i le dotco cu se ciska ta'i la fraktur .i mi xebni la fraktur .i mi djica {lenu ciska fi le jbusfe fe <> kei} gi'enai ca ponse lo ve ciska befi loi mudri .i mi ka'e lebna lo cpare ja bisli kilmru le zunle bitmu .i mi co'i morji le xajmi pe lei bisli kilmru jgari relcisyge'upre .iku'i lenu le xajmi cu jboselsku na se snada mi .isemu'ibo mi pensi sanga le se finti be la suZAN.vegas.be'o peme'e <> .i lenu go'i cu se dicra lenu lo djabe'ipre noi .uacu'i xindo cu klama mi gi'e cisma bacru <> .i mi co'a se spaji catlu le be'ipre .i mi nelci le be'ipre .i mi mutce nelci co se trina le be'ipre ja'e lenu mi na spuda ri .iseki'ubo ri cmila joiku'i milxe bo se fanza bacru <> .i mi spuda barcu <> .i le be'ipre goi ko'a cu bacru <> .i mi <> .i ko'a <> .i mi <> .i ko'a bacru <> li'u gi'e cliva mu'i lenu bevri nagi'e tavla lo drata zutse .ipujecabo lu'i le jukpa kuce le patlu'i lu'u nevi le jupku'a cu cladu joi selzdi dabysnu .i le jukpa cu so'uroi batkla gi'e te jivrei le se casnu folei zvati .i.aucai mi na ve preti .i le barjyjatna noi dasni lo jikri'i taurgunma ca tavla la vei,on. .i mi xance rinsa la vei,on. i ko'a spuda rinsa gi'e nupre lenu bazi kansa mi kei mi .i loi cnino cu nerkla gi'e cladu rinsa loi no'e cnino noi na'oca'o te lisri .i mi na .ai cabdei ve lisri .i mi .e'icu'i cabdei xebni la fraktur. Free Translation into English. I've been preceeded by Veijo in entering Cafe Loblaz. I swiftly and yet grandly make my entrance through the front door, which is heavy and plain. Opening the door took a bit of effort, and made it necessary to push. What is behind the door is illuminated by mild afternoon light, and is comfortably small. There's about ten tables, I dunno. I sit at a table with noone by it, in the corner and next to the door, and look at the people here. I see Veijo sitting in the opposite corner, and I don't think he's noticed I'm here. He's getting high on the coffee smells. I prefer tea, and I'm waiting --- not that anxiously --- for a waiter to notice me. There's some noise and a bit of merriment. But today, I'm feeling private --- uh, sorry about that. The walls are decorated by miscellanea, unharmonious by the usual standards. The two climbing axes above the front door aren't quite symmetrical. Nor are the other objects on the walls --- a pea on a cushion, for example, an old signboard saying "Best Tailor in the Whole Town", and a belt with "Cinderelwood" written on it. I look at the table-top where I'm sitting. It's been inscribed with lots of stuff, in Lojban, Esperanto, English, even German. The German stuff is in Fraktur script. I hate Fraktur. I want to write "Kilroy woz here and hates Fraktur", but I haven't got something to write on wood with. I could take an ice-pick or climbing-pick from the wall to my left. I recall the joke about the ice-pick wielding bisexuals, but it doesn't go into Lojban too well. So I start mentally singing Suzanne Vega's _Tom's Diner_. I am interrupted by a waiter, Indian I suppose, who comes to me and says, smiling: "What'll ya have to eat, Lojban-lover?" I look at the waiter, surprised. I like the waiter. I really like the waiter. I'm so attracted to the waiter, I forget to answer. So s/he says, laughing but a bit annoyed, "Hello? Earth to Goodfellow Lojbanist? What'll ya have to eat or drink?" I answer "I hear you, and thank *you*, friend (shgeez) --- Oh, not shgeez about you, shgeez about not answering; what a klutz I am! :) I'll have tea." "What kind of tea?" "*shrug* What do you recommend?" "Oh, you could have a Tasty-T; it's our most recent purchase." "OK, get us a Tasty-T." The waiter says "Consider it done", and leaves, not to get it, but to talk to other patrons. While this has been going on, the cook and the dishwasher in the kitchen have been loudly and enthusiastically arguing. The cook occasionally comes out and asks the patrons for their opinion about the topic he's debating. I *really* don't want to be asked. The manager, wearing a suit, is talking to Veijo. I wave at Veijo; he waves back and promises me he'll be with me in a moment. New people enter and loudly greet those already there, who are typically telling stories. I don't feeling like being told any stories today. Today, I feel like hating Fraktur. Mark: I like "mi cabdei melu.i'inai li'u vau.u'uru'e". Very good use of "me". Not sure what you're repenting of, but you don't have to say. Nick: I was regretting being such a misery-guts to the audience, instead of getting on with the job of navigating. Lojbab: noticed - you used zvaju'o and Sylvia guessed your intent from context. Suggestied to use zgana or jundi as the major basis of the word. Nick: Possibly, though I think zvaju'o, or at most nunzvaju'o, is clear. Lojbab: "He's getting high on the coffee smells" - No one could figure out anything about what you were trying to convey with that attitudinal, even after checking the English. There's no se'inai, so this is YOUR attitude, and I see no semantic suggestion on "high" even if I assume the se'inai was supposed to be there. Explanation? Nick: The .o'enai means I don't empathise, because that's what I take emotional closeness to mean. [Regarding "high"] The translation was a bit loose? :) Lojbab: Closeness can be related to empathy, but I'm not sure it is the same thing, at least in the sense that you used, I mean expressed, it. I can feel emotionally close to someone without necessarily sharing their feelings about something else. And emotional distance seems to me rather more like aloofness than an absence of empathy. Lojbab: private - you used a me for this - was there a reason for not using sivni or a lujvo thereon, which is intended to be associated with this attitudinal. Nick: I was unaware of it. The word would have to be sivyci'o, and not sivni. But I think me+UI is a powerful construct, worth preserving. Lojbab: symmetrical - did you consider lanxe vs sarxe. The English suggests the former and the minra was a bit confusing. Doesn't anyone like dukti? (dukti-mapti lanxe/sarxe?) Nick: minra will have to be there because the equilibrium is one of reflection same-ness. lanxe is clearly better than sarxe, and maybe te minra rather than minra, but any expression for symmetrical will have to have a wild metaphor. Lojbab: Nick kind of jumped the gun, using the rafsi "do'i" for the new gismu "donri" (daytime) prior to either being announced publicly or appearing in any lists that people can look up.