Message  6:
Date:         Mon, 26 Oct 1992 14:34:34 +1100
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU
Subject:      CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
X-To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>

A montage of some of my recent outings, with the names changed to
protect the not so innocent :)  Translations solicited --- I want to
present the friends mentioned with my impressions of them, mediated
through a third party :)


pamo'o
<<lu go'e .ibaboke'u ko'u bacru <<lu ko seljde loi mabru li'u>>
li'u>>
.i lei puze'a tirna cu milxe ke cfipu cmila .i la paul. bacru
<<lu mabru tcini .u'iru'e li'u>> gi'e cevni melbi co dasni lo
xekri birtu'ucau .i'ero'u nercre .i ge lerci tcika vi le barja
gi cevni carmi co xekri fa le tsani za'a loi selca'o selne'i
.i so'o ve barja mo'u cliva .i la lizbet. na'e go'i cadykei
{be le xekri tedykerfa be la paul. kalsa be'o} se mlifanza
cisma no'e zanru le xajmi .ivusaibo ti'e xekri kalsa loi
juntytri .ii poi vlipa joi vlile joike daspo joi finti vau.u'a
.ikivive'i simsa go'i ro'a .i'unai
no'i la liz. dasni lo grusi notcre (to leno'a cu se kanla loi
danmo blanu za'a toi) be <<lu lenu prami cuca'e nu nelci carmi
se trina lo prenu ju nakni ju fetsi vau pa'ero'a li'u>> ne loi
lerfu co xekri .i mi (to lego'i cu se kerfa loi na'e kalsa
za'a toi) cairmau meleli'i grusi .i grusi fa lemi plokarlycre
.e le palku .e le kosycre noi jgena se dasni ru'u le xadmidju
.i su'o prenu cu ba'anaita'o sanga bacru <<lu .i GRUSypre ce
GRUSytau ce grusyXIRMyXEMkla li'u>> .ina'igo'i sa'e .i lu'e
gy.ce'ory.ce'o.ubuce'osy. cuka'u drani se basti lu'e xy.ce'o.ebu
ce'o ky.ce'ory.
.ita'ocu'i su'u xekri kei vi le kafybarja

ni'oremo'o
su'o bevri cu.a'acu'i masno kalsydzu zo'i loi ve barja .i la
paul. cu tavla (to leno'a mebri cu jurja'o .i le laurxajmi pu'i
vlipa .au toi) fi leli'i ge'utro .i <<lu .i mi du'eroi .u'anaizo'o
se ge'utro .iku'i mi purlaicte se go'i la liz. oinai.u'i li'u>>
<<lu.i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>> <<lu .ipe'i.ianai snuti li'u>>
<<lu.i la paul. jikfanza .iepei doi liz. .u'iru'e li'u>> <<lu .i
carmi jikfanza ju'o .iu .i ko co'u xlapre .i'u li'u>> <<lu .izo'o
tu'ako bapli .e'inai li'u>> (to pu'i vlipa .au fi leka smaji ke
tcila prami joi pendo noisu'anai se mupli na'ebo lecaca'a seltai
.i'o toi) <<lu .i mi le'o go'i li'u>>
.i la paul. ce la liz. co'a cisma simtipyda'a ni'a le jubme .i
la liz. (to gasta bo demxa'e ce margu bo jamfu ce xamsi bo kanla
vau .io toi) certu lezu'o bracau damba .i mi se mliburna ctacarna
co na'eke bracau damba certu gi'e zgana le barja
ni'o le patlu'i kujo'u le jukpa puza cliva .ija'ebo le barja cu
tatpi smaji .iji'a le trixe be le barja be'o {noi di'i krasi
{leka to'e cando gi'e kurfa kei} ki'u {lepu'u ru vi ri zdidabysnu
(to <<lu .i do te sluji le birka lo mleca be la'emi .o'a li'u>>
<<lu .i.e'u mi'o cipra .a'e birvrajvi .i.ai le prite .i do djuno
.o'ocu'i ledu'u le zunle pe mi tsame'a le prite birka doi paul.
li'u>> <<lu .i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>> toi) tigni fi loi ve
barja}} cu ca malmliselgu'i ke dukri'a kunti .i la paul. jinga
fi la liz. lenu birvrajvi .i la liz. go'i fi mi fu'i (to ba'e
dukri'a kunti toi) .i lerci tcika vi le barja .i mi'a pu'o
jbuboikei

ni'ocimo'o
le jatna <<lu .i.a'o do joi le pendo be do cu xaufri ca leca
vanci li'u>>
mi <<lu .i go'i .io .i ca pamoi zu'o mi vitke le barja calo
relmomcte .iza'a .u'eru'e lei ve barja cu clira cliva ca le
cabdei li'u>>
.i le re jibni be mi depci'o catlu le jatna
.i le jatna <<lu .i go'i ki'u leka lei cibdei na'o cabdei lenu
mutce gunka kei vi levi tcadu .ita'o do noi ta'e klama le barja
ca lei xavycte cu punai pe'i penmi la xiron. noi vi sidju li'u>>
.i la paul. ce la liz. smaji casnu lenu ri jo'u ra ba litru la'e
le merko .i le jatna cu degji jarco le clani ke blabi creka
xadyti'e be le cnino be mi gi'e cisma bacru <<lu .i.ai mi bazi
benji ri do ge'e li'u>> gi'e cliva
.i la liz. bacru <<lu .i do li'a selxagmau mi'a tu'a le bangu
.o'o li'u>> .i le re se cimei na lojbo
.i mi <<lu .i nu vlipa jivna zo'o .i mi jitro joi seltro li'u>>
la paul. <<lu .i ca ronu za'u prenu cu simfra cu nu vlipa jivna
ru'a .i go'i cu'u la djen. vecu'u le samsnuci'e .iseni'ibozo'o.
iecu'i go'eje'u li'u>>
mi <<lu .i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>>
la paul. <<lu le xaupre za'ota'e bacru <<lu xu purpla li'u>> li'u>>
mi <<lu .i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>>
la liz. <<lu .i co'a lerci .i doi paul. do pu nupre lenu mi'a
clira sipna .i mi cutyzu'e co bavlamdei li'u>>
la paul. <<lu .i.u'i xu purpla go'i li'u
mi <<lu .i.ua mi se sitna li'u>>
(tosa'a lemu'e sitna na dunli lemu'e xusra .i la paul. cu nalri'i
bacru la'ezo simfra gi'u xusra .i loi cmavo be "zo zo'o na'o
banzu lenu lo te sitna lo se xusra cu frica .i lemu'e mi se sitna
cu te ciste lo pemci joi kelci jenai xusra plitadji be la paul.
bei le bangu bei lenu jikca pluja .i na nibli fa le nunsitna lenu
morna sinma .i na nibli na'ebolesego'i.u'i .i mi mutce me"zoto tavla
.ixuse'izo'o purpla go'i toi)
la liz. <<lu malxlu zo'o li'u>>
.i lerci tcika vi le barja .i mi'a puba'o jbuboikei .i lei bevri
cu.a'acu'i masno bo kalsydzu fa'u sutra bo kalsydzu fa'u cando
.i casnu loi sancrfrikative .e loi relcisrampre girvlici'e .e loi
nalzva pendo ca'o le nicte noi srura be loba'a vu trene co pelxu
gusni nenri pamei ke sirji darno xemkla zmitai ke snura grusi
nalkalsa kunti be'o .uo xekri
---
'Dera me xhama t"e larm"e,            T  Nick Nicholas, EE & CS, Melbourne Uni
 Dera mbas blerimit                   |  nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo)
 Me xhama t"e larm"e!                 |  Milaw ki ellhnika/Esperanto parolata/
 Lumtunia nuk ka ngjyra tjera.'       |  mi ka'e tavla bau la lojban. je'uru'e
 - Martin Camaj, _Nj"e Shp'i e Vetme_ |                *d'oh!*

Message 12:
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:42:20 GMT
Reply-To: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>

My translation of part 1 of Nick's "su'u xekri"  ("Black")

1.
"That's right. And then he said 'Take heed of the mammals'"
Uncertain chuckles among the listeners.
Paul, god-like in a black sleeveless (hm, sexy!) undershirt, said "You
mean, of the mammalian state."
It is late at the bar, and the sky is supremely black, seen from the
windowed building. (Note 1)  Some customers leave. Lizbeth, not leaving,
plays with Paul's wild black hair and grins uncomfortably, not liking the
joke.
Far away, a black chaos of terrible black holes, destroying and creating
with fearful strength and violence. (Note 2). And right here, the same sort
of thing going on.

Liz (with smoky blue eyes) in a grey T-shirt that says "Love is being
strongly attracted to people whether male or female" in black letters.
And I (her hair is not wild) am even more grey.  Grey are my shirt, my
trousers, the jersey tied round my midriff.  Somebody ? sings "Grey man,
in grey clothes, riding a grey horse" (note 3).  Actually they don't.
Properly, GRUS are replaced by XEKR.

        That's "black" in the bar.

Notes:
1. I can't really make sense of this sentence. I have assumed that "za'a" is
a mistake for "ga'a", as "xekri" has no x2 place. But what is intended by
"cevni carmi co xekri" I don't know.

2. "kalsa" wants a "ka" for its x2, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

3. I can't make anything of "ba'anaita'o" - (mark-nation) board


I am impressed with this piece of writing, while at the same time, I am
not at all sure that it works.  It's full of untranslatable things, that
I read and get something from, but I'm not certain it's what Nick means.
A narrow translation would put in all sorts of things that don't quite
make sense, and I've made sense of them in English by being
impressionistic.  Examples:
        ".ivusaibo" - the "sai" says there is an strong but unspecified
        emotion attached to the "vu" (far away). [It does not intensify
        the "vu" itself].

        "notcre" for (message-bearing) t-shirt is meaningful only because
        we are familiar with them - cf my inability to understand
        "ba'anaita'o" which is probably just as clear a metaphor.

What I do like very much is the use of a long tanru with interior
linkargs to express a series of contemperaneous or sequential actions:
        .i la lizbet.
                [[[[[na'e go'i]
                   <cadykei {be le xekri tedykerfa be la paul. kalsa be'o}>]
                         se mlifanza]
                                cisma]
                                        no'e zanru]
        le xajmi

"Lizbet
        [[[[[not doing that-ly]
                 <playing with the Paul's-hair chaos>-ly]
                        mildly annoyed-ly]
                                smilingly]
                                        neutrally approved]
        the joke"

This rather nicely reflects the Japanese "-te" or the Mongolian "-ji", and
I wanted it when doing my Dagur translation.

        kolin

Message 14:
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:52:43 EST
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: Nick Nicholas <nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU>
Subject:      Re: CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
X-Cc:         Lojban Mailing List <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>
In-Reply-To:  "C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK" at Nov 18, 92 2:42 pm

Saith C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK in his/her manifold wisdom:

>My translation of part 1 of Nick's "su'u xekri"  ("Black")

For which many thanks.

>Paul, god-like in a black sleeveless (hm, sexy!) undershirt, said "You
>mean, of the mammalian state."

I meant it to mean "hm, you're talking mammals here" or "it's a mammal
situation", but that's fair.  Astute readers may recognise this as a
segue from Iain's Saurichsia piece.

>It is late at the bar, and the sky is supremely black, seen from the
>windowed building. (Note 1)

god-like black in the original; "God" prefixed is an emphatic in Greek
and, I think, Aramaic, but I'm not sure how effective it is in Lojban.
I meant {se canko se nenri} to denote those contained by the building
with the windows, but that's obviously a bit too lazy.

>Far away, a black chaos of terrible black holes, destroying and creating
>with fearful strength and violence. (Note 2). And right here, the same sort
>of thing going on.

I was lazy with the place structure of {kalsa} too, mandating that it be
"a chaos of...", which I'd already translated in Colossal Cave as
{kalsysu'a}.  The same sort of thing going on in a *social* sense.

>the jersey tied round my midriff. Somebody ? sings "Grey man, in grey clothes,
>riding a grey horse" (note 3).
ba'anaita'o is three cmavo.

>Actually they don't.

They don't, as far as the right cultural context is concerned (It's a
Greek folk song.)

>Properly, GRUS are replaced by XEKR.

I'm trying to say "the string GREY is replaced by the string BLACK".

> That's "black" in the bar.

There's a blackness going on in the bar.

>I am impressed with this piece of writing, while at the same time, I am not
>at all sure that it works.

Yeah... trying to be creatively Lojbanic, but I may be in over my head...

>        ".ivusaibo" - the "sai" says there is an strong but unspecified
>        emotion attached to the "vu" (far away). [It does not intensify
>        the "vu" itself].

Well... needn't it?

Hm.  Should I publish my own intended translation of the complete piece,
or wait for you all to have done with it?
---
'Dera me xhama t"e larm"e,            T  Nick Nicholas, EE & CS, Melbourne Uni
 Dera mbas blerimit                   |  nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo)
 Me xhama t"e larm"e!                 |  Milaw ki ellhnika/Esperanto parolata/
 Lumtunia nuk ka ngjyra tjera.'       |  mi ka'e tavla bau la lojban. je'uru'e
 - Martin Camaj, _Nj"e Shp'i e Vetme_ |                *d'oh!*

Message  7:
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:40:17 GMT
Reply-To: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>

Respondeth Nick in his/her godlike supremacy:
> Saith C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK in his/her manifold wisdom:

> >It is late at the bar, and the sky is supremely black, seen from the
> >windowed building. (Note 1)
>
> god-like black in the original; "God" prefixed is an emphatic in Greek
> and, I think, Aramaic, but I'm not sure how effective it is in Lojban.
> I meant {se canko se nenri} to denote those contained by the building with
> the windows, but that's obviously a bit too lazy.

"God" prefrixed is emphatic in many forms of English too, but I object
to and will wilfully misunderstand it in Lojban.

Doesn't work.  You mean "nenri", not "se nenri" (as I suspected), but
however you do it, the "se canko" modifies the "nenri" not the "se
nenri".  Hmmm... how about "se ke selca'o selne'i"?  I think it works,
but it would give me kittens if I came upon it in a text.  (.... like a
good deal of the present text.... zo'o).

> >Far away, a black chaos of terrible black holes, destroying and creating
> >with fearful strength and violence. (Note 2). And right here, the same sort
> >of thing going on.
>
> I was lazy with the place structure of {kalsa} too, mandating that it
> be "a chaos of...", which I'd already translated in Colossal Cave as
> {kalsysu'a}. The same sort of thing going on in a *social* sense.

As I said, I had some problem with UI in your text.  So pe'i did you.
ROhA (he said, arbitrarily inventing a purely formal subclass of UI, but
you know what I mean) are specifically defined as "emotion
category/modifier" -ie they modify the speaker's attitude about the
utterance, whether that is expressed or not.  Consequently what you've
said is that you have some feeling on a social scale about the sentence,
NOT that it is true in a social kind of way.  This is what I meant by my
comment about "vusai".  I think you're trying to get a sort of back-door
tanru modification, and committing a category error.
 (What's the Lojban for 'flame off'?)

> ba'anaita'o is three cmavo.

.o'onairu'ero'a srera .i do zu'unai drani

Having said which, I'm not sure what it means.  I've a feeling I know
what you meant by it, viz "unexpectedly, somebody started to sing".
Another category error.  "ba'a" is about the quality of information in
the statement - I suggest that "ba'a" means "Whatever it is I'm claiming
is not something I know for a fact, but something I expect to be so",
and contrasts with "za'a" and "ka'u" (I think it can co-occur with
"ti'e" and "ja'o" however).  I'm not sure what kind of negation is
"ba'anai" (possibilities are "I'm stating this but I don't actually
expect it to be true"; "I assert this with an evidential other than
ba'a, such as za'a"; or "I expect that the converse of this is true").

Either way, I don't believe it can convey the attitude that I think you
mean here - I would suggest something on the lines of ".ueru'e" or
"i'ucu'i".

>        That's "black" in the bar.
>
> There's a blackness going on in the bar.

I was trying to get over the deliberate vagueness of "su'u".

> Hm. Should I publish my own intended translation of the complete piece,
> or wait for you all to have done with it?

I'd like to have a go at the other half first.  Maybe next week.

Message 14:
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:36:35 EST
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: Nick Nicholas <nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU>
Subject:      Re: su'u xekri
X-To:         Lojban Mailing List <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>
In-Reply-To:  "C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK" at Nov 19, 92 6:40 pm

Saith C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK in his/her manifold wisdom:

And yes, I know Stewart Evans in rec.music.misc does his attributions
more classily :)

>Respondeth Nick in his/her godlike supremacy:
>> Saith C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK in his/her manifold wisdom:

>"God" prefrixed is emphatic in many forms of English too, but I object to and
>will wilfully misunderstand it in Lojban.

Mpf. Yeah, OK, it'll probably go...

>Doesn't work. You mean "nenri", not "se nenri" (as I suspected)

And I have NO idea how *that* happened..

>but however
>you do it, the "se canko" modifies the "nenri" not the "se nenri".

*frown* really?  Why isn't {se canko se nenri} paraphrasable as {se
nenri be le se canko} (which here should be selca'o nenri anyway, of
course).

>Consequently what you've said is that you have some feeling
>on a social scale about the sentence, NOT that it is true in a social kind
>of way. This is what I meant by my comment about "vusai". I think you're
>trying to get a sort of back-door tanru modification, and committing a
>category error.

Guilty; and I've spent the past couple of days trying to weasel out of
this one, but... yeah.  I'll let my thoughts crystallise on this one...

> (What's the Lojban for 'flame off'?)

{de'a dabysnu}?

>> ba'anaita'o is three cmavo.
>.o'onairu'ero'a srera .i do zu'unai drani

>Having said which, I'm not sure what it means.

Well, the at times rather impressionistic scalar negations of UI words
are not something for which I can take credit :)  {ba'anai} is glossed
in the lists as "I remember" (and {ba'acu'i} as "I experience"), and
intended to denote that the predication was recalled from (cultural)
memory.
---
'Dera me xhama t"e larm"e,            T  Nick Nicholas, EE & CS, Melbourne Uni
 Dera mbas blerimit                   |  nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo)
 Me xhama t"e larm"e!                 |  Milaw ki ellhnika/Esperanto parolata/
 Lumtunia nuk ka ngjyra tjera.'       |  mi ka'e tavla bau la lojban. je'uru'e
 - Martin Camaj, _Nj"e Shp'i e Vetme_ |                *d'oh!*

Message 13:
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:10:20 +0000
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: CJ FINE <C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
X-To:         nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>

The next instalment of my translation from Nick's 'black' piece 2.

A couple of waiters were slowly making their erratic way towards the
drinkers.  Paul was talking about being the active partner in sex, his
face serious.  The loud joke had caused that.  (note 1)

"I've too let the other person control", ruefully. "But last night
I dominated Liz." (note 2)
"Was that planned?"
"Not quite sure - I think it was accidental."
"Paul's a pain, isn't he, Liz?"
"Yes, a real pain. Look, stop being so nasty."
"Go on then, make me!" (something had been enough to make the quiet
detailed (?) friendly and loving relationship which does not normally show
this behaviour (note 3))
"I will!"
Paul and Liz started kicking eath other gleefully under the table. Liz,
steel-fisted, quicksilver-footed, sea-eyed, is an expert at unarmed
combat. I turned away, embarassed, and not good at unarmed combat, and
looked round the bar.

 >   > ni'oremo'o
> su'o bevri cu.a'acu'i masno kalsydzu zo'i loi ve barja .i la
> paul. cu tavla (to leno'a mebri cu jurja'o .i le laurxajmi pu'i
> vlipa .au toi) fi leli'i ge'utro .i <<lu .i mi du'eroi .u'anaizo'o
> se ge'utro .iku'i mi purlaicte se go'i la liz. oinai.u'i li'u>>
> <<lu.i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>> <<lu .ipe'i.ianai snuti li'u>>
> <<lu.i la paul. jikfanza .iepei doi liz. .u'iru'e li'u>> <<lu .i
> carmi jikfanza ju'o .iu .i ko co'u xlapre .i'u li'u>> <<lu .izo'o
> tu'ako bapli .e'inai li'u>> (to pu'i vlipa .au fi leka smaji ke
> tcila prami joi pendo noisu'anai se mupli na'ebo lecaca'a seltai
> .i'o toi) <<lu .i mi le'o go'i li'u>>
> .i la paul. ce la liz. co'a cisma simtipyda'a ni'a le jubme .i
> la liz. (to gasta bo demxa'e ce margu bo jamfu ce xamsi bo kanla
> vau .io toi) certu lezu'o bracau damba .i mi se mliburna ctacarna
> co na'eke bracau damba certu gi'e zgana le barja

Notes:

1. I can't make much sense of this:  what the 'laurxajmi' is, in what
sense it was 'powerful', nor, especially, what it is that Nick is
wanting ('au').

2. I think "se go'i" is very confusing after a "se ge'utro".  I *think*
I've got it right ("go'i" represents the entire selbri, so the "se"
unconverts it into "se se ge'utro"), but even if it's correct, it's
going to be a long time before anybody is confident enough to be sure of
that sort of thing on the fly.  I would prefer a "ku'i" or something to
make assurance doubly sure.

3. I can't get a lot out of this sentence in detail, though I think I
have the gist.  Again, I don't know what it is that's supposed to be
being powerful, nor why Nick wants it, and I don't know what a 'detail
friend and lover' is.

Once again, lovely flavours in your use of long tanru, to-toi brackets
(but you overdo them, and they tend to be very unclear without their
x1's), attitudinals.

I am not happy with some of the tanru and lujvo - it took me quite a
while working out what a 'dense-hand' might be.  That long inverted
tanru in the last sentence I translated gives me problems.  I understand
the words, and think I have understood the sense, but for the life of me
I can't work out what you were trying to achieve by that "co".  I've
also assumed that the "se" before "milburna" was a mistake (I don't
suppose you meant that I - you - were an embarrassING look-turner) - and
I'm not at all sure about 'look-turner' - 'turn-looker' would appear
more appropriate to me.

                ko gleki selzdi le salci
                        mi'e kolin

Message 15:
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:51:33 EST
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: Nick Nicholas <nsn@MULLIAN.EE.MU.OZ.AU>
Subject:      Re: CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
X-To:         C.J.Fine@bradford.ac.uk
X-       Lojban Mailing List <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>
In-Reply-To:   "CJ
              FINE" at Dec 14, 92 5:10 pm

>The next instalment of my translation from Nick's 'black' piece

Mmm. I'm in for it again, I see... my obscurantism backfires yet again.

>A couple of waiters were slowly making their erratic way towards the
>drinkers. Paul was talking about being the active partner in sex,
>his face serious. The loud joke had caused that. (note 1)

Actually, it would have made sense had I said {le laurxajmi goi la paul.},
or {le laurxajmypre}: ("This loud joker has shown strength...")

>"I've too let the other person control", ruefully. "But last night
>I dominated Liz." (note 2)
>"Was that planned?"
>"Not quite sure - I think it was accidental."

"I *always* get topped! Heh, but I topped *Liz* last night!"
"On purpose?"
"Nah, must have been an accident."

>"Yes, a real pain. Look, stop being so nasty."
She said, looking at him adoringly...

>"Go on then, make me!" (something had been enough to make the quiet
>detailed (?) friendly and loving relationship which does not normally show
>this behaviour (note 3))

Oh!  Er, you'll kick me for this:  it's a continuation of the previous
parenthetical clause.  The repetition of {vlipa} clearly isn't enough to
bind the two parentheticals together, and I'll revise it into an
explicit bind.  ("He has shown strength in close friendship/love, which
isn't exemplified by this kind of behaviour!  :)  ") The {tcila} is
obviously weak.

Why do I structure this whole narrative on such a rabbit-warren of
parenthetical comments?  I don't know, the self-commenting,
double-narrative perplexity, made *formally* possible by Lojban's
unambiguous punctuation, intrigued me; I don't think it was wise to do
it so cavalierly though (I'll still do it, because there's a point to
it, but I'll build in more safety valves.)

>I understand the words, and
>think I have understood the sense, but for the life of me I can't work out
>what you were trying to achieve by that "co".

Literally, afterthough tanru modification.  Like postposed adjectives in
free order languages.  My lack of self-defence competence characterised
me, but is an afterthough to my turning.  (And a self-mocking aside,
that shouldn't be foregrounded.)

>               ko gleki selzdi le salci
go'ira'o

*******************************************************************************
 A freshman once observed to me:         Nick Nicholas am I, of Melbourne, Oz.
 On the edge of the Rubicon,             nsn@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au (IRC: nicxjo)
 men don't go fishing.                   Account expires end of February 1993.
   - Alice Goodman, _Nixon In China_     Mail me! Mail me! Mail me! Or don't!!


Message  2:
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:23:43 GMT
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
From: C.J.Fine@BRADFORD.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: CAFE.INT: su'u xekri
To: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@grebyn.com>

mi ke'unai spuda la nik.

> >"Yes, a real pain. Look, stop being so nasty."
> She said, looking at him adoringly...

I can't find that in there. Did you mean "iu" rather than "i'u"?

>
> >"Go on then, make me!" (something had been enough to make the quiet
> >detailed (?) friendly and loving relationship which does not normally show
> >this behaviour (note 3))
>
> Oh! Er, you'll kick me for this: it's a continuation of the previous
> parenthetical clause. The repetition of {vlipa} clearly isn't enough to
> bind the two parentheticals together, and I'll revise it into an explicit
> bind. ("He has shown strength in close friendship/love, which isn't
> exemplified by this kind of behaviour! :) ") The {tcila} is obviously weak.

Yes I will. (See below)

OK, I was wrong with the x3 of vlipa, but I don't think your sumti does
what you want.  It's a property of (somebody being) quiet, close lovers
and friends - I think you probably want the "smaji" outside the "ka".
I'm not quite sure what "close" means in this context.  How about
"lamji"?  (like "jibni", this is not confined to spatial adjacency).
Otherwise, paradoxically, "slabu" seems to do it.

> Why do I structure this whole narrative on such a rabbit-warren of
> parenthetical comments? I don't know, the self-commenting, double-narrative
> perplexity, made *formally* possible by Lojban's unambiguous punctuation,
> intrigued me; I don't think it was wise to do it so cavalierly though (I'll
> still do it, because there's a point to it, but I'll build in more safety
> valves.)

But you're not using it that way.  You're taking Lojban's unambiguous
punctuation as the frame, and then clothing it liberally in several of
the structures which are specifically not unambiguous, viz tanru,
no'ervaismu tergerna (parenthesis) and selru'a sumti (omitted
arguments).  The result is something rather gnomic and evocative, but
miles from the precision that Lojban was (I believe) designed for.

In partcular, Lojban says absolutely nothing about the relationship of a
no'ervaismu tergerna to the surrounding text; it is therefore formally
impossible to relate several such together.  (Of course this can be done
pragmatically, as you were intending, but that is outside the defined
grammar, and even, I suggest, outside any level of semantics which we
may somedaay define.

This is not to censure you for doing this, but please be aware what you
are doing.

> >I understand the words, and
> >think I have understood the sense, but for the life of me I can't work out
> >what you were trying to achieve by that "co".
>
> Literally, afterthough tanru modification. Like postposed adjectives in
> free order languages. My lack of self-defence competence characterised me,
> but is an afterthough to my turning. (And a self-mocking aside, that
> shouldn't be foregrounded.)

Fair enough.  By this point, I was so concentrating on the wierdnesses
of your construction, that I missed this simple intention.

        Colin

New tanru/lujvo used in this mail:
no'ervaismu tergerna - no'e vajni smuni te gerna -
                        neutrally-important-meaning grammatical-form
                        'Bracketed expression' (but could be other kinds of
                        aside such as vocatives too)
selru'a sumti - se sruma sumti - assumed argument
                        'Omitted argument'

JL17
pamo'o
<<lu go'e .ibaboke'u ko'u bacru <<lu ko seljde loi mabru li'u>>
li'u>>
.i lei puze'a tirna cu milxe ke cfipu cmila .i la paul. bacru
<<lu mabru tcini .u'iru'e li'u>> gi'e cevni melbi co dasni lo
xekri birtu'ucau .i'ero'u nercre .i ge lerci tcika vi le barja
gi cevni carmi co xekri fa le tsani za'a loi selca'o selne'i
.i so'o ve barja mo'u cliva .i la lizbet. na'e go'i cadykei
{be le xekri tedykerfa be la paul. kalsa be'o} se mlifanza
cisma no'e zanru le xajmi .ivusaibo ti'e xekri kalsa loi
juntytri .ii poi vlipa joi vlile joike daspo joi finti vau.u'a
.ikivive'i simsa go'i ro'a .i'unai
no'i la liz. dasni lo grusi notcre (to leno'a cu se kanla loi
danmo blanu za'a toi) be <<lu lenu prami cuca'e nu nelci carmi
se trina lo prenu ju nakni ju fetsi vau pa'ero'a li'u>> ne loi
lerfu co xekri .i mi (to lego'i cu se kerfa loi na'e kalsa
za'a toi) cairmau meleli'i grusi .i grusi fa lemi plokarlycre
.e le palku .e le kosycre noi jgena se dasni ru'u le xadmidju
.i su'o prenu cu ba'anaita'o sanga bacru <<lu .i GRUSypre ce
GRUSytau ce grusyXIRMyXEMkla li'u>> .ina'igo'i sa'e .i lu'e
gy.ce'ory.ce'o.ubuce'osy. cuka'u drani se basti lu'e xy.ce'o.ebu
ce'o ky.ce'ory.
.ita'ocu'i su'u xekri kei vi le kafybarja

ni'oremo'o
su'o bevri cu.a'acu'i masno kalsydzu zo'i loi ve barja .i la
paul. cu tavla (to leno'a mebri cu jurja'o .i le laurxajmi pu'i
vlipa .au toi) fi leli'i ge'utro .i <<lu .i mi du'eroi .u'anaizo'o
se ge'utro .iku'i mi purlaicte se go'i la liz. oinai.u'i li'u>>
<<lu.i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>> <<lu .ipe'i.ianai snuti li'u>>
<<lu.i la paul. jikfanza .iepei doi liz. .u'iru'e li'u>> <<lu .i
carmi jikfanza ju'o .iu .i ko co'u xlapre .i'u li'u>> <<lu .izo'o
tu'ako bapli .e'inai li'u>> (to pu'i vlipa .au fi leka smaji ke
tcila prami joi pendo noisu'anai se mupli na'ebo lecaca'a seltai
.i'o toi) <<lu .i mi le'o go'i li'u>>
.i la paul. ce la liz. co'a cisma simtipyda'a ni'a le jubme .i
la liz. (to gasta bo demxa'e ce margu bo jamfu ce xamsi bo kanla
vau .io toi) certu lezu'o bracau damba .i mi se mliburna ctacarna
co na'eke bracau damba certu gi'e zgana le barja
ni'o le patlu'i kujo'u le jukpa puza cliva .ija'ebo le barja cu
tatpi smaji .iji'a le trixe be le barja be'o {noi di'i krasi
{leka to'e cando gi'e kurfa kei} ki'u {lepu'u ru vi ri zdidabysnu
(to <<lu .i do te sluji le birka lo mleca be la'emi .o'a li'u>>
<<lu .i.e'u mi'o cipra .a'e birvrajvi .i.ai le pritu .i do djuno
.o'ocu'i ledu'u le zunle pe mi tsame'a le pritu birka doi paul.
li'u>> <<lu .i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>> toi) tigni fi loi ve
barja}} cu ca malmliselgu'i ke dukri'a kunti .i la paul. jinga
fi la liz. lenu birvrajvi .i la liz. go'i fi mi fu'i (to ba'e
dukri'a kunti toi) .i lerci tcika vi le barja .i mi'a pu'o
jbuboikei

ni'ocimo'o
le jatna <<lu .i.a'o do joi le pendo be do cu xaufri ca leca
vanci li'u>>
mi <<lu .i go'i .io .i ca pamoi zu'o mi vitke le barja calo
relmomcte .iza'a .u'eru'e lei ve barja cu clira cliva ca le
cabdei li'u>>
.i le re jibni be mi depci'o catlu le jatna
.i le jatna <<lu .i go'i ki'u leka lei cibdei na'o cabdei lenu
mutce gunka kei vi levi tcadu .ita'o do noi ta'e klama le barja
ca lei xavycte cu punai pe'i penmi la xiron. noi vi sidju li'u>>
.i la paul. ce la liz. smaji casnu lenu ri jo'u ra ba litru la'e
le merko .i le jatna cu degji jarco le clani ke blabi creka
xadyti'e be le cnino be mi gi'e cisma bacru <<lu .i.ai mi bazi
benji ri do ge'e li'u>> gi'e cliva
.i la liz. bacru <<lu .i do li'a selxagmau mi'a tu'a le bangu
.o'o li'u>> .i le re se cimei na lojbo
.i mi <<lu .i nu vlipa jivna zo'o .i mi jitro joi seltro li'u>>
la paul. <<lu .i ca ronu za'u prenu cu simfra cu nu vlipa jivna
ru'a .i go'i cu'u la djen. vecu'u le samsnuci'e .iseni'ibozo'o.
iecu'i go'eje'u li'u>>
mi <<lu .i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>>
la paul. <<lu le xaupre za'ota'e bacru <<lu xu purpla li'u>> li'u>>
mi <<lu .i xu purpla go'i zo'o li'u>>
la liz. <<lu .i co'a lerci .i doi paul. do pu nupre lenu mi'a
clira sipna .i mi cutyzu'e co bavlamdei li'u>>
la paul. <<lu .i.u'i xu purpla go'i li'u
mi <<lu .i.ua mi se sitna li'u>>
(tosa'a lemu'e sitna na dunli lemu'e xusra .i la paul. cu nalri'i
bacru la'ezo simfra gi'u xusra .i loi cmavo be "zo zo'o na'o
banzu lenu lo te sitna lo se xusra cu frica .i lemu'e mi se sitna
cu te ciste lo pemci joi kelci jenai xusra plitadji be la paul.
bei le bangu bei lenu jikca pluja .i na nibli fa le nunsitna lenu
morna sinma .i na nibli na'ebolesego'i.u'i .i mi mutce me"zoto tavla
.ixuse'izo'o purpla go'i toi)
la liz. <<lu malxlu zo'o li'u>>
.i lerci tcika vi le barja .i mi'a puba'o jbuboikei .i lei bevri
cu.a'acu'i masno bo kalsydzu fa'u sutra bo kalsydzu fa'u cando
.i casnu loi sancrfrikative .e loi relcisrampre girvlici'e .e loi
nalzva pendo ca'o le nicte noi sruri be loba'a vu trene co pelxu
gusni nenri pamei ke sirji darno xemkla zmitai ke snura grusi
nalkalsa kunti be'o .uo xekri


Colin translates:
1.
"That's right. And then he said 'Take heed of the mammals'"
Uncertain chuckles among the listeners.
Paul, god-like in a black sleeveless (hm, sexy!) undershirt, said "You
mean, of the mammalian state."
It is late at the bar, and the sky is supremely black, seen from the
windowed building. (Note 1)  Some customers leave. Lizbeth, not leaving,
plays with Paul's wild black hair and grins uncomfortably, not liking the
joke.
Far away, a black chaos of terrible black holes, destroying and creating
with fearful strength and violence. (Note 2). And right here, the same sort
of thing going on.

Liz (with smoky blue eyes) in a grey T-shirt that says "Love is being
strongly attracted to people whether male or female" in black letters.
And I (her hair is not wild) am even more grey.  Grey are my shirt, my
trousers, the jersey tied round my midriff.  Somebody ? sings "Grey man,
in grey clothes, riding a grey horse" (note 3).  Actually they don't.
Properly, GRUS are replaced by XEKR.

        That's "black" in the bar.

Notes:
1. I can't really make sense of this sentence. I have assumed that "za'a" is
a mistake for "ga'a", as "xekri" has no x2 place. But what is intended by
"cevni carmi co xekri" I don't know.

   Nick:
   "god-like black" in the original; "God" prefixed is an emphatic in Greek
   and, I think, Aramaic, but I'm not sure how effective it is in Lojban.

      Colin:
      "God" prefrixed is emphatic in many forms of English too, but I object
      to and will wilfully misunderstand it in Lojban.

   Nick:
   I meant {se canko se nenri} to denote those contained by the building
   with the windows, but that's obviously a bit too lazy.

      Doesn't work.  You mean "nenri", not "se nenri" (as I suspected),

         And I have NO idea how *that* happened..

      but however you do it, the "se canko" modifies the "nenri" not the "se
      nenri".  Hmmm... how about "se ke selca'o selne'i"?  I think it works,
      but it would give me kittens if I came upon it in a text.  (.... like a
      good deal of the present text.... zo'o).

         *frown* really?  Why isn't {se canko se nenri} paraphrasable as {se
         nenri be le se canko} (which here should be selca'o nenri anyway, of
         course).

2. "kalsa" wants a "ka" for its x2, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

   I was lazy with the place structure of "kalsa" too, mandating that it be
   "a chaos of...", which I'd already translated in Colossal Cave as
   "kalsysu'a".  The same sort of thing going on in a *social* sense.

      As I said, I had some problem with UI in your text.  So pe'i did you.
      ROhA (he said, arbitrarily inventing a purely formal subclass of UI, but
      you know what I mean) are specifically defined as "emotion
      category/modifier" -ie they modify the speaker's attitude about the
      utterance, whether that is expressed or not.  Consequently what you've
      said is that you have some feeling on a social scale about the sentence,
      NOT that it is true in a social kind of way.  This is what I meant by my
      comment about "vusai".  I think you're trying to get a sort of back-door
      tanru modification, and committing a category error.  (What's the Lojban
      for 'flame off'?)

         Guilty; and I've spent the past couple of days trying to weasel out of
         this one, but... yeah.  I'll let my thoughts crystallise on this one...

         {de'a dabysnu}?


3. I can't make anything of "ba'anaita'o" - (mark-nation) board

   ba'anaita'o is three cmavo.

      .o'onairu'ero'a srera .i do zu'unai drani

      Having said which, I'm not sure what it means.  I've a feeling I know
      what you meant by it, viz. "unexpectedly, somebody started to sing".
      Another category error.  "ba'a" is about the quality of information in
      the statement - I suggest that "ba'a" means "Whatever it is I'm claiming
      is not something I know for a fact, but something I expect to be so",
      and contrasts with "za'a" and "ka'u" (I think it can co-occur with
      "ti'e" and "ja'o" however).  I'm not sure what kind of negation is
      "ba'anai" (possibilities are "I'm stating this but I don't actually
      expect it to be true"; "I assert this with an evidential other than
      ba'a, such as za'a"; or "I expect that the converse of this is true").

      Either way, I don't believe it can convey the attitude that I think you
      mean here - I would suggest something on the lines of ".ueru'e" or
      "i'ucu'i".

         Well, the at times rather impressionistic scalar negations of UI words
         are not something for which I can take credit :)  {ba'anai} is glossed
         in the lists as "I remember" (and {ba'acu'i} as "I experience"), and
         intended to denote that the predication was recalled from (cultural)
         memory.

4.

I am impressed with this piece of writing, while at the same time, I am
not at all sure that it works.  It's full of untranslatable things, that
I read and get something from, but I'm not certain it's what Nick means.
A narrow translation would put in all sorts of things that don't quite
make sense, and I've made sense of them in English by being
impressionistic.

   Yeah... trying to be creatively Lojbanic, but I may be in over my head...

Examples:

        ".ivusaibo" - the "sai" says there is an strong but unspecified
        emotion attached to the "vu" (far away). [It does not intensify
        the "vu" itself].

            Well... needn't it?

        "notcre" for (message-bearing) t-shirt is meaningful only because
        we are familiar with them - cf my inability to understand
        "ba'anaita'o" which is probably just as clear a metaphor.

5.
What I do like very much is the use of a long tanru with interior
linkargs to express a series of contemporaneous or sequential actions:

        .i la lizbet.
                [[[[[na'e go'i]
                   <cadykei {be le xekri tedykerfa be la paul. kalsa be'o}>]
                         se mlifanza]
                                cisma]
                                        no'e zanru]
        le xajmi

"Lizbet
        [[[[[not doing that-ly]
                 <playing with the Paul's-hair chaos>-ly]
                        mildly annoyed-ly]
                                smilingly]
                                        neutrally approved]
        the joke"

This rather nicely reflects the Japanese "-te" or the Mongolian "-ji" ...

        kolin


6.
Nick responds:
>Paul, god-like in a black sleeveless (hm, sexy!) undershirt, said "You
>mean, of the mammalian state."

I meant it to mean "hm, you're talking mammals here" or "it's a mammal
situation", but that's fair.  Astute readers may recognise this as a
segue from Iain's Saurichsia piece.

7.
>Actually they don't.

They don't, as far as the right cultural context is concerned (It's a
Greek folk song.)

8.
>Properly, GRUS are replaced by XEKR.

I'm trying to say "the string GREY is replaced by the string BLACK".

9.
> That's "black" in the bar.

There's a blackness going on in the bar.

     Colin:
     I was trying to get over the deliberate vagueness of "su'u".






2.
A couple of waiters were slowly making their erratic way towards the
drinkers.  Paul was talking about being the active partner in sex, his
face serious.  The loud joke had caused that.  (note 1)

"I've too let the other person control", ruefully. "But last night
I dominated Liz." (note 2)
"Was that planned?"
"Not quite sure - I think it was accidental."
"Paul's a pain, isn't he, Liz?"
"Yes, a real pain. Look, stop being so nasty."
"Go on then, make me!" (something had been enough to make the quiet
detailed (?) friendly and loving relationship which does not normally show
this behaviour (note 3))
"I will!"
Paul and Liz started kicking eath other gleefully under the table. Liz,
steel-fisted, quicksilver-footed, sea-eyed, is an expert at unarmed
combat. I turned away, embarassed, and not good at unarmed combat, and
looked round the bar.

Notes:

1. I can't make much sense of this:  what the 'laurxajmi' is, in what
sense it was 'powerful', nor, especially, what it is that Nick is
wanting ('au').

   Actually, it would have made sense had I said {le laurxajmi goi la
   paul.}, or {le laurxajmypre}:  ("This loud joker has shown strength...")

2. I think "se go'i" is very confusing after a "se ge'utro".  I *think*
I've got it right ("go'i" represents the entire selbri, so the "se"
unconverts it into "se se ge'utro"), but even if it's correct, it's
going to be a long time before anybody is confident enough to be sure of
that sort of thing on the fly.  I would prefer a "ku'i" or something to
make assurance doubly sure.

   >"I've too let the other person control", ruefully. "But last night
   >I dominated Liz." (note 2)
   >"Was that planned?"
   >"Not quite sure - I think it was accidental."

   "I *always* get topped! Heh, but I topped *Liz* last night!"
   "On purpose?"
   "Nah, must have been an accident."

3. I can't get a lot out of this sentence in detail, though I think I
have the gist.  Again, I don't know what it is that's supposed to be
being powerful, nor why Nick wants it, and I don't know what a 'detail
friend and lover' is.

   >"Yes, a real pain. Look, stop being so nasty."

   She said, looking at him adoringly...

      I can't find that in there. Did you mean "iu" rather than "i'u"?

   >"Go on then, make me!" (something had been enough to make the quiet
   >detailed (?) friendly and loving relationship which does not normally show
   >this behaviour (note 3))

   Oh!  Er, you'll kick me for this:

      Yes I will. (See below)

   it's a continuation of the previous
   parenthetical clause.  The repetition of {vlipa} clearly isn't enough to
   bind the two parentheticals together, and I'll revise it into an
   explicit bind.  ("He has shown strength in close friendship/love, which
   isn't exemplified by this kind of behaviour!  :)  ") The {tcila} is
   obviously weak.

      OK, I was wrong with the x3 of vlipa, but I don't think your sumti does
      what you want.  It's a property of (somebody being) quiet, close lovers
      and friends - I think you probably want the "smaji" outside the "ka".
      I'm not quite sure what "close" means in this context.  How about
      "lamji"?  (like "jibni", this is not confined to spatial adjacency).
      Otherwise, paradoxically, "slabu" seems to do it.




Once again, lovely flavours in your use of long tanru, to-toi brackets
(but you overdo them, and they tend to be very unclear without their
x1's), attitudinals.

   Why do I structure this whole narrative on such a rabbit-warren of
   parenthetical comments?  I don't know, the self-commenting,
   double-narrative perplexity, made *formally* possible by Lojban's
   unambiguous punctuation, intrigued me; I don't think it was wise to do
   it so cavalierly though (I'll still do it, because there's a point to
   it, but I'll build in more safety valves.)

      But you're not using it that way.  You're taking Lojban's unambiguous
      punctuation as the frame, and then clothing it liberally in several of
      the structures which are specifically not unambiguous, viz tanru,
      no'ervaismu tergerna (parenthesis) and selru'a sumti (omitted
      arguments).  The result is something rather gnomic and evocative, but
      miles from the precision that Lojban was (I believe) designed for.

      In particular, Lojban says absolutely nothing about the relationship of
      a no'ervaismu tergerna to the surrounding text; it is therefore formally
      impossible to relate several such together.  (Of course this can be done
      pragmatically, as you were intending, but that is outside the defined
      grammar, and even, I suggest, outside any level of semantics which we
      may somedaay define.

      This is not to censure you for doing this, but please be aware what you
      are doing.

I am not happy with some of the tanru and lujvo - it took me quite a
while working out what a 'dense-hand' might be.  That long inverted
tanru in the last sentence I translated gives me problems.  I understand
the words, and think I have understood the sense, but for the life of me
I can't work out what you were trying to achieve by that "co".

   Literally, afterthought tanru modification.  Like postposed adjectives in
   free order languages.  My lack of self-defence competence characterised
   me, but is an afterthought to my turning.  (And a self-mocking aside,
   that shouldn't be foregrounded.)

      Fair enough.  By this point, I was so concentrating on the wierdnesses
      of your construction, that I missed this simple intention.


I've also assumed that the "se" before "milburna" was a mistake (I don't
suppose you meant that I - you - were an embarrassING look-turner) - and
I'm not at all sure about 'look-turner' - 'turn-looker' would appear
more appropriate to me.

Colin:
no'ervaismu tergerna - no'e vajni smuni te gerna -
                        neutrally-important-meaning grammatical-form
                        'Bracketed expression' (but could be other kinds of
                        aside such as vocatives too)
selru'a sumti - se sruma sumti - assumed argument
                        'Omitted argument'