--- Log opened Fri May 01 00:00:58 2015
01:04 < selpahi> mensi: doi Voltz This is  a list of Lojbanic Music: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lojban_music Texts: http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Texts+In+Lojban (and my site has some more texts: http://selpahi.de in case you are interested).
01:04 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.Voltz.gy. di'a cusku da
01:04 < mensi> selpahi: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: ko ciska zoi .vric.sv:coi.vric. lo dei se irci | 2015-05-01T06:10:30.
01:04 < mensi> 697Z
01:04 < selpahi> ki'e la gleki
01:06 < gleki> Muplis now optimized for small screens
01:06 < gleki> as for sutsis .... mi laaaaaaazni
02:06 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 141 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 139 normal]
03:37 < Ilmen> coi
03:40 < selpahi> coi
03:42 < selpahi> Wie geht's? do ma lifri
03:42 < Ilmen> pu zi tavla la .naurs.
03:42 < selpahi> ua
03:43 < Ilmen> noi gunka lo fraso vlaste
03:43 < selpahi> la .xelan.
03:43 < Ilmen> ie
03:43 < selpahi> ze'u na tavla ri fa mi
03:43 < Ilmen> stidi tu'a lo cnino ke smuvelski staile
03:43 < Ilmen> http://khaganat.net/pastebin/view/fd70987e#L15
03:44 < Ilmen> sa'u gasnu lo nu lo glosovla ge nai pagbu lo smuvelski ja'e lo nu juxre gi zvati lo drata
03:44 < selpahi> ce balcon -> c'est un balcon
03:45 < Ilmen> ce balcon = lo vi balni
03:45 < Ilmen> mi pu jungau tu'a lo cmalu selsre
03:45 < selpahi> ie .i ku'i ko catlu lo xe fanva
03:45 < Ilmen> ieie
03:46 < Ilmen> sa'u staile mupli
03:46 < selpahi> ie .i xamgu
03:46 < Ilmen> gi'e se finti xy
03:47 < selpahi> .i ki'u ma la cribe na kansa lo drata franseze ca lo so'o purci reldei
03:47 < Ilmen> .i xy pu brireisku lo ka jei sarcu fa lo nu fa mu'a BPFK cu staile zanru
03:47 < selpahi> .i ji'a xu co'u reldei ctuca
03:47 < Ilmen> .i ji'a stidi lo du'u da catni ke staile minde ja'e lo nu smuvelski jvinu manfo
03:48 < Ilmen> .i je'u ze'a lo masti be li su'o re zo'u no da fasybau nunctu gi'e fasnu
03:49 < selpahi> za'a
03:50 < gleki> xu ca'o gunka tu'a lo vlaste
03:51 < gleki> i ma cnino staile doi la ilmen
03:51 < gleki> i je'e
03:51 < Ilmen> nu'o staile su'o ca'a co'e
03:51 < Ilmen> http://khaganat.net/pastebin/view/fd70987e#L19
03:51 < Ilmen> lo nau fasybau vlaste ve farvi zo'u https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11LkhR_q-DQDrPQogjt9NKGkFlUbDbAMPuo8S1rI11JM/edit?pli=1#gid=0
03:52 < gleki> xu re do tavla do'e la'oi #khaganat poi se irci
03:52 < Ilmen> sivni casnu
03:52 < Ilmen> fa lo re mi'a
03:53 < gleki> milxe fanza mi falonu lo smuvelcki pe la xorxes cu frica lo catni
03:53 < gleki> en:stura
03:53 < mensi> stura = x1 is a structure/arrangement/organization of x2 [set/system/complexity].
03:53 < gleki> i ku'i
03:53 < gleki> jbo:stura
03:53 < mensi> stura = x1 gunma x2 gi'e morna ja te ganzu ja te zbasu x2
03:53 < gleki> i ua
03:53 < gleki> i uanai
03:54 < gleki>  i na zo stura
03:54 < gleki> i mi bebna 
03:54 < gleki> jbo:ciste
03:54 < mensi> ciste = x1 stura x2 gi'e ja'e bo ckaji x3
03:54 < Ilmen> en:ciste
03:54 < mensi> ciste = x1 (mass) is a system interrelated by structure x2 among components x3 (set) displaying x4 (ka).
03:54 < gleki> ki'e
03:55 < gleki> $x_1$ est un système ayant la structure $x_2$, les composants $x_3$, montrant la propriété $x_4$
03:55 < gleki> smuvelcki (nouvelle version)
03:56 < gleki> i mi pu bilga lo ka vimcu re te sumti la bangu
03:56 < gleki> jb:ciste
03:56 < mensi> ciste = ciste — ''x1(entity)''  is a system with structure  ''x2(entity)''
03:56 < mensi> :lo ciste — system. lo se ciste — structure of a system.
03:56 < mensi> :lo kibro cu ciste lo se tcana be lo skami poi se pi'o ce'u lo prenu cu jikca — ''The internet is a system with computer
03:56 < mensi> nodes, using which people communicate.''
03:56 < mensi> :Related words: ci'e, cmima, girzu, gunma, stura, tadji, munje, farvi, ganzu, judri, julne, klesi, morna,
03:56 < mensi> tcana
03:56 < gleki> i ki'u bo mi na djuno lo du'u ei zukte makau
03:56 < Ilmen> ma frica lo ciste lo te ciste
03:57 < gleki> gunma i se gunma
03:57 < Ilmen> je'e
03:57 < gleki> cmima/se cmima
03:57 < gleki> i mi na birti
03:58 < Ilmen> en:gismu
03:58 < mensi> gismu = x1 is a (Lojban) root word expressing relation x2 among argument roles x3, with affix(es) x4.
03:58 < Ilmen> jbo:gismu
03:58 < mensi> gismu = x1 brivo x2 lo jbobau gi'e pormei li mu gi'e poi'i naku lo karsna cu pormoi li pa ke'a kei gi'e se rafsi
03:58 < mensi> x4
03:58 < Ilmen> za'a dai mi na jmina lo ci moi
03:58 < gleki> doi lo te gismu do zvati ma
03:58 < Ilmen> .i ki'u bo mi se cfipu
03:58 < gleki> jb:gismu
03:58 < mensi> gismu = gismu — ''x1(text)''  is a root verb
03:58 < mensi> :lo gismu — gismu (root verb).
03:58 < mensi> :zo zgana gismu — ''zgana is a gismu (root verb).''
03:58 < mensi> :Related words: selbrivla, lujvo, zi'evla, cmevla
03:58 < gleki> :P
03:59 < gleki> i sa'u na panra zo valsi
03:59 < Ilmen> va'o lo nu lo ka gismu cu ka valsi zo'u ci'izra fa lo nu lo sumti tersu'i cu pagbu
03:59 < Ilmen> .i lo gismu ge'i selbri gi brivla
03:59 < gleki> jbo:brivo
03:59 < mensi> brivo = x1 fe x2 gismu ja lujvo ja fu'ivla gi'e valsi x3 .i je va'i x1 fe x2 fi x3 selbrivla gi'e nai cmavo be
03:59 < mensi> da
04:01 < gleki> lo se gismu cu se brivo vau je'e
04:01 < Ilmen> mi .e'ande lo nu da xagzenzau lo zo gismu smuvelski .i ku'i mi zo'u ki'u lo nu se cfipu cu na gasnu
04:03 < Ilmen> en: lujvo
04:03 < mensi> lujvo = x1 (text) is a compound predicate word with meaning x2 and arguments x3 built from metaphor x4. |>>> See also
04:03 < mensi> stura, cmavo, gismu, rafsi, smuni. |>>> officialdata
04:03 < Ilmen> jbo:lujvo
04:03 < mensi> lujvo = x1 selbri za'upamei valsi x2 gi'e se sumti x3 gi'e se zbasu fi x4 poi tanru
04:03 < Ilmen> ua nai ru'e
04:03 < gleki> If I write  script that would mass tag Tatoeba sentences would you kindly help me with putting tags to every Tatoeba Lojban sentence if I put them into a google doc?
04:04 < Ilmen> ma tcita mupli
04:05 < gleki> mi finti lo so'o tcita i mu'a http://tatoeba.org/jbo/sentences/show/634753
04:05 < gleki> sampu staile
04:05 < gleki> i ku'i e'a do jmina lo drata tcita fau lonu do jinvi lo du'u sarcu
04:05 < Ilmen> je'e
04:05 < gleki> I mark Lojban sentences as:
04:05 < gleki> "@needs native check" - possibly incorrect
04:05 < gleki> "sampu staile" - simple style (suitable for La Bangu project)
04:05 < gleki> "mansa staile" - simple style but not very interesting (suitable for La Bangu project)
04:05 < gleki> "plixau jufra" - sentence useful from translator's viewpoint (no matter how complex it is or its linked sentence)
04:05 < gleki> "cnano staile" - satisfactory style (boring complex old Lojban, might be lujvo-intensive)
04:05 < gleki> "na'e catni se ciska staile" - non-official style of writing, may contain punctuation, capital letters, imitate European punctuation styles.
04:05 < gleki> [ http://tatoeba.org/jbo/user/profile/gleki ]
04:06 < Ilmen> je'e
04:06 < gleki> "na'e catni se ciska staile" <-- never used, some sentences are tagged as "non-standard" instead
04:06 < gleki> e.g.
04:07 < gleki> Tatoeba:му
04:07 < mensi> .о'и му хагжи софъбакни шу звати ле пурди [948358]
04:07 < Ilmen> .o'i mi xagji
04:07 < gleki> mu
04:07 < Ilmen> mu
04:07 < Ilmen> sofybakni cu zvati le purdi
04:07 < gleki> it's blue apple in Muplis: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/muplis/index.html#sisku/му
04:08 < gleki> i li plise cu blanu i ki'u bo lo jufra su fusra pe'a u'i
04:08 < gleki> *cu
04:08 < gleki> sa
04:08 < gleki> sa
04:08 < gleki> i lo plise cu blanu i ki'u bo lo jufra cu fusra pe'a u'i
04:08 < Ilmen> .u'i
04:09 < Ilmen> lu fusra staile li'u
04:14 < Ilmen> ta'onai la'a mi ba sidju
04:14 < Ilmen> ni'o citka .ai co'o
04:14 < gleki> je'e i ja'o mi bilga lo ka favgau lo skripto
04:29 < gleki> Ah, someone sent an account request in LMW and again only I can see it.
04:29 < gleki> We need more people reading thelogicallanguagegroup@gmail.com mail
06:23 < gleki> here we go. But I have no ISO-codes of cities
06:33  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban timeline - http://t.co/E8OiNjsnNv by Gleki - /* 2015 */ La Muplis [http://bit.ly/1E1G1BE]
06:46 < pilno> lets speak
06:47 < pilno> hi
06:47 < fpcalep> coi la pilno
06:47 < pilno> hey what do you think of esperanto just a question
06:48 < Ilmen> coi
06:51 < Ilmen> Well, as I said one, "Esperanto was a nice try for its time." :p
06:51 < fpcalep> This seems a commonly linked to review of Esperanto: http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/
06:52 < Ilmen> *once
06:53 < Ilmen> Well, for speakers of European languages, Esperanto is pretty good
06:54 < Ilmen> But for speakers of non-European languages, it's not as easy to learn, I've heard.
06:59 < Ilmen> I'm not fond of the fact that content roots may get different meaning depending on the part-of-speech suffix, such as kroni/krono, brosi/broso...
07:04 < gleki> 06:47 < pilno> hey what do you think of esperanto just a question <-- It's a language that I understand :D
07:07 < gleki> fpcalep: na srana la lojban
07:07 < gleki> Ilmen: "vortaro" estas .uedai karnovor-taro :D
07:08 < fpcalep> mi djuno .i ki'u ma jungau ba'e mi .i la pilno cu casnu lo spero .i mi na tcana jitro zo'o
07:08 < gleki> do oftopi
07:08 < fpcalep> .i ku'i ju'o cu'i va'o lo nu co'a jinvi lo du'u malbau cu co'a se cinri lo jbobau fa la pilno
07:09 < fpcalep> ko pante fi la pilno ku ji'a .i xu do terpa lo nu fanza lo cnino
07:09 < pilno> i remember that a chinese man learnt esperanto in 4 months
07:09 < Ilmen> .u'i
07:10 < gleki> pilno: are you waware that Lojban is by design not an auxlang in its usual sense?
07:10 < gleki> *aware
07:10 < pilno> no i was not
07:10 < gleki> De facto maybe since we are all from different countries.
07:11 < gleki> Hm, actually it's more common that languages that arent meant to be used internationally start being used internationally: English, Spanish. Who could've known that they would be used for that.
07:12 < gleki> or tcp/ip protocol.
07:16 < fpcalep> doi la gleki do pu'i xu tcidu su'o klasiko ke rusko cukta ne mu'a la .bulgakov. ja la .tolstois.
07:17 < gleki> oi puzuku
07:18 < gleki> i mu puzu tcidu la'e lu lo certu e la margarita li'u
07:18 < fpcalep> .i'e sai
07:18 < fpcalep> .i mi ba zi tcidu bau lo rusko
07:18 < b_jonas> gleki: lojban isn't even being used as an auxlang yet afaik
07:18 < fpcalep> (to zi ru'e toi)
07:18 < fpcalep> .i pe'i banli cukta
07:19 < gleki> b_jonas: there is an auxlang mailing list where people mention lojban among other auxlangs. I asked why is it auxlang/ They said that if at least two people from different countires speak a language then it can be considered an auxlang even if it's Sumerian.
07:20 < b_jonas> that's riddiculous
07:20 < b_jonas> why would the countries even matter?
07:20 < b_jonas> meh
07:20 < gleki> fpcalep: e'uru'e do co'a pilno la uatsap i mi cmima so'i bangu girzu  lo jmive prenu cu jmive tavla zu'ai
07:20 < gleki> .w auxlang
07:20 < phenny> auxlang — noun: 1. An auxiliary language
07:20 < gleki> hm
07:20 < fpcalep> ki'e .i ku'i .ai na pilno
07:40 < drizz> og hvad s
07:48 < fpcalep> Hvad sker der?
07:49 < fpcalep> en:danseke
07:49 < mensi> danseke = x1 pertains to Denmark/Danish culture/nationality/language is aspect x2
07:50 < fpcalep> .u'i ru'e .oi ru'e
07:50 < fpcalep> en:danske
07:50 < mensi> danske [< danti saske ≈ Projectile lore] = s1 is ballistics with methodology s2.
08:10 < gleki> So now I am able to mass tag Tatoeba sentences.
08:33 < fpcalep> Someone go say hi in #ckule
08:34 <@xalbo> I wonder how to say "to resist an urge"
08:35 <@xalbo> .i mi na ru'e irci be la ckule be'o cusku zoi zoi. hi in #ckule .zoi
08:36 < fpcalep> za'a .i la .timon. cu xelveto jbopre
08:36 < ozgu> go'i
08:36 < fpcalep> mi ca'o bilga lo drata .i se ki'u bo pacna lo nu lo drata be mi cu tavla la .timon.
08:36 < fpcalep> .i za'a su'o re drata jbopre cu jundi
08:36 < ozgu> ju'o
08:36 < ozgu> ko banfi'i
08:37 < fpcalep> mi banfi lo su'o da noi snavei
08:37 < ozgu> ŭi sai
08:37 < fpcalep> :P
08:38 < fpcalep> zdile sai sai
08:38 < fpcalep> #jainubanli
08:38 <@xalbo> .i mi banfi zei fi'i fau lo nu plipe
08:38 < ozgu> .i mi nelci lo'u jai nu le'u
08:39 < ozgu> pipydanti dai
08:39 < fpcalep> pipyganti
08:39 < ozgu> volmanti ii
08:40 < fpcalep> Jag kan inte tro att jag inte kan hitta e-boken (epub) av Sagan om Ringen. Jag har redan ljudboken, som jag tror skulle vara svårare att hitta, men nej...
08:41 < fpcalep> Det verkar inte ens finnas (gratis) svenska Harry Potter e-böcker. Men det är naturligtvis möjligt att jag bara är dålig på att söka.
08:42 < fpcalep> Å andra sidan, jag har massor av svårt att hitta ljudböcker och e-böcker på flera olika språk.
08:43 < ozgu> Aha
08:43 < fpcalep> .u'i
08:43 < ozgu> vilken vill du helst ha, sagan om ringen eller harry potter?
08:43 < ozgu> är det för att lära dig mer svenska?
08:44 < ozgu> eller är det kanske så att du vill se hur de är översatta till svenska så du kan jämföra med hur du vill översätta till lojban?
08:44 < fpcalep> Ja. Jag vill ha båda
08:44 < fpcalep> Nej
08:45 < fpcalep> (to mi mo'u co'e re lo pempau .i .ai co'e lo ro ci moi toi)
08:46 < ozgu> .a'a
08:50 < ozgu> co'a ŭa carvi va
08:51 < ozgu> mi ji'a na ku facki
08:53 < Zluglu> Everytime I read swedish it reminds me off that 15 years old internet meme…
08:53 < ozgu> ŭa ru'e ju'oi https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/4394469/Harry_Potter_och_De_Vises_Sten_(e-book__textbook__SWE)
08:53 < fpcalep> cizra .i zu'u nai so'i bangu cu zmadu lo sfe'ero lo ka ma kau ni lo nu facki tu'a lo pe ce'u sance ja tcidu cukta (to pe lo ba'e cfika toi) cu tolcumki
08:53 < fpcalep> .i mu'a lo jungo cu simlu lo ka na sai se cinri lo si'o sance cukta
08:53 < Zluglu> (of)
08:54 < ozgu> Zluglu: what meme is that?
08:54 < ozgu> ju'oi https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/3271402/Sagan_om_ringen ji'a
08:54 < fpcalep> .i sance cukta .i mi xa'o ponse
08:55 < ozgu> je'e
08:55 < ozgu> mi pu djuno bilga
08:55 < fpcalep> .i .ai facki lo du'u xu kau vasru lo cukta
08:55 < Zluglu> ozgu : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatten_%C3%A4r_din
08:55 < ozgu> so you're also Swedish...?
08:57 < fpcalep> ba'a nai na go'i
08:57 < Zluglu> ozgu : me ? not at all
08:58 < fpcalep> na ba'e sai sa'a sfe'ero
08:58 < ozgu> it surprises me that that song is known outside of Sweden
08:58 < ozgu> sa'anmo ko'oi
08:59 < Zluglu> Internet is magick
08:59 < Zluglu> -k
08:59 < ozgu> but how can it be amusing if you don't know Swedish?
09:00 < Zluglu> The swedish lyrics has been translated to english
09:00 < Zluglu> And a arabic-like song, with swedish subtitles = WAT
09:01 < ozgu> hehe
09:01 < fpcalep> It might be quite possibly to make some Lojbanic misheard lyrics...
09:01 < fpcalep> .ei la su'o da cu finti
09:01 < fpcalep> possible*
09:01 < ozgu> cinri .i la la zei la cu ko'oi finti ie
09:02 < fpcalep> .u'i lo'u leila le'u cinri da'i cmene
09:02 < ozgu> kei...
09:02 < fpcalep> .i ku'i ue ca lo nu xorlo cu co'e lo'u lola le'u xa'a'a'a'a
09:03 < ozgu> lol
09:06 < gleki> lo do sfe'ero cu itku'ile ga'a mi
09:06 < fpcalep> Let me leave you with a translation challenge: "Go before I kill you." Don't get trapped.
09:07 < gleki> do klama i jonai ko'oi mi catra do
09:08 < gerku> coi
09:09 < ozgu> za'a do cliva pu lo nu da'i danfu jungau
09:09 < ozgu> cliva ko'oi nai pu lo nu da'i danfu jungau
09:11 < gleki> do ko'oi cliva ije fau lo nu na go'i vau mi ba catra do
09:11 < gleki> to a'o zo go'i na fukpygau zo ko'oi toi
09:30  * nuzba @Unaz: http://t.co/PaQeHcLcMl [http://bit.ly/1EIOMFt]
11:28 < Voltz> coi
11:28 < mensi> Voltz: cu'u la'o gy.selpahi.gy.: This is  a list of Lojbanic Music: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lojban_music Texts: http:/
11:28 < mensi> /tiki.lojban.org/tiki/Texts+In+Lojban (and my site has some more texts: http://selpahi.de in case you are interested). |
11:28 < mensi> 2015-05-01T08:04:14.445Z
11:35 < durka42> coi
11:36 < ozgu> bi'i
11:37 < durka42> coi kadno
11:37 < ozgu> coi kalfi
11:38 < ozgu> .i xagji fa mi gi'e mo fa do
11:38 < durka42> .adno: x1 na kadno gi'e ku'i jitro lo kadnygu'e va'o x2 (to jansu selkei sei zmiku toi)
11:39 < durka42> mi ki'u lo nu puzi jukpa na xagji
11:39 < ozgu> .i'e
11:39 < ozgu> .i'e
11:39 < ozgu> yacc: bai lo su'u bu'a na bu'e
11:39 < mensi> ({bai <lo [su'u (bu'a VAU) KEI] KU>} {<na bu'e> VAU})
11:39 < ozgu> ie'e
11:39 < durka42> zo na snipa sai
11:39 < ozgu> yacc: bai lo su'u bu'a ca bu'e
11:39 < mensi> ({bai <lo [(su'u {bu'a <[ca KU] VAU>} KEI) bu'e] KU>} VAU)
11:39 < ozgu> frica .u'i
11:40 < durka42> zo na snipa lo selbri
11:40 < durka42> lo cmavo be ma'oi bai cu snipa lo bridi
11:40 < durka42> cfipu :)
11:40 < durka42> camxes: +exp bai lo su'u bu'a na bu'e
11:40 < camxes> ([bai {lo <su'u (¹CU [bu'a VAU]¹) KEI> KU}] [CU {na bu'e} VAU])
11:40 < durka42> camxes: +exp bai lo su'u bu'a ca bu'e
11:40 < camxes> ([bai {lo <su'u (¹CU [bu'a VAU]¹) KEI> KU}] [CU {ca bu'e} VAU])
11:40 < durka42> mabla cnino xD
11:41 < fpcalep> mabla cnino co zabna
11:42 < ozgu> de'a .u'u
11:42 < ozgu> .au co'a co'u xagji
11:52 < gleki> baza lo djedi be li so'o mi ba bregau lo gugle gredile pe lo jufra pe la mupli ije ma'a ba ka'e jmina lo tcita lo jufra pe le gredile i babo mi zmiku jmina le tcita la mupli ku poi kibustuzi
11:52 < gleki> si kibystuzi
11:56 < durka42> .i'e
11:57 < gleki> i caku ku'i mi mutce lazni ju tatpi
12:00 < gleki> i xu da pu zukte lo cipra be lo flira lanli tutci pe la mikro softo
12:00 < durka42> mi paroi troci
12:00 < durka42> to'e drani .u'i
12:01 < gleki> o'udai do remna
12:03 < Zluglu> “converts number to an objectively quantified tense interval modifier; defaults to time tense.”, so {paroi} means “once” and {reroi} “twice”, but if it’s not as a time tense, what would it mean ? “in one place” “in two places”?
12:08 <@xalbo> Yes. You can use {fe'e} to convert time tenses/aspects into a spacial version.
12:09 <@xalbo> Many of them don't really have straightforward meanings, so I'm not really sure, but "in one place" is probably about right.
12:10 < Zluglu> ki’e
12:12 < gleki> jb:roi
12:12 < mensi> roi = roi [preposition] — number > preposition for how many times it happens
12:12 < mensi> :mi pu re roi penmi la Alis — ''I met Alice twice, two times.''
12:12 < mensi> :Comment: event happens (n) times. The number (n) is put in front of roi.
12:13 < durka42> jb:re'u
12:13 < mensi> re'u = re'u [preposition] — number > preposition for which time it happens
12:13 < mensi> :mi pu ci re'u penmi la Alis — ''I met Alice for the third time.''
12:13 < mensi> :mi zvati ti za'u re'u — ''I'm here again.''
12:13 < mensi> :Comment: event happens for the (n) time. The number (n) is put in front of re'u.
12:13 < durka42> "lb" changed to "jb" ?
12:14 <@xalbo> lb:roi
12:14 < mensi> roi = roi [preposition] — number > preposition for how many times it happens
12:14 < mensi> :mi pu re roi penmi la Alis — ''I met Alice twice, two times.''
12:14 < mensi> :Comment: event happens (n) times. The number (n) is put in front of roi.
12:14 <@xalbo> ib:roi
12:14 <@xalbo> qb:roi
12:15 < gleki> "lb" is Luxembourgish
12:15 < durka42> ie
12:15 < gleki> no, only "jb" added as a synonym
12:15 < durka42> en:roi
12:15 < mensi> roi = [ROI] converts number to an objectively quantified tense interval modifier; defaults to time tense.
12:15 < durka42> *barf*
12:15 < Zluglu> en:krefu
12:15 < mensi> krefu = x1 (event) is the x3'rd recurrence/repetition of x2 (abstract); x2 happens again in [form] x1.
12:15 < durka42> gleki: je'e
12:15 < Zluglu> en:re'u
12:15 < mensi> re'u = [ROI] converts number to an objectively quantified ordinal tense interval modifier; defaults to time.
12:15 < gleki> I hope the Era of Cryptic Cmavo Defs is over?
12:17 < durka42> iesai
12:21 < fpcalep> "objectively quantified ordinal tense interval modifier" is pretty horrid. I wonder if they were just trying to sound knowledgeable.
12:21 < fpcalep> But {voi}'s definition is hilarious too
12:22 < gleki> Heh, actually in #tatoeba they recommended me to determine the quality of sentences by who entered them
12:23 <@xalbo> I wonder what the "objectively" is meant to mean in that definition. The rest makes sense after enough of the Kool-Aid.
12:23 < gleki> loglan: riyvei
12:23 < mensi> riyvei = V is/are several times
12:23 < gleki> ?!
12:24 < Ilmen> :coi
12:24 < gleki> loglan:ri
12:24 < mensi> ri = several/a few/some/a small number of set..., a quantifying operator.
12:24 < fpcalep> I  believe the "objectively" is in comparison to e.g. TAhE, which are "subjective" tenses and because the number of occurences in PA ROI can be objectively counted.
12:24 < gleki> loglan: fori
12:24 < mensi> fori = fourth (4th) term/member of series y, an ordinal predicate.
12:26 < gleki> fpcalep: mo'e lo bergu roi
12:26 < gleki> fpcalep: i cati ko kancu mu'a'a
12:27 < fpcalep> zo'o ru'e lo cusku be zo roi cu bilga lo ka kancu
12:27 < Zluglu> I initially thought that “objectively” was the opposite of “vague”, but then appeared soryroi/sotroi/suzroi…
12:29 < gleki> mi ta'e klama lo barja i cu'e sa'e i y so'iroi
12:53 < ozgu> gleki: what do you mean with "number > preposition" in your definition for roi? I can't avoid reading it as "numbers are greater than prepositions"
12:54 < durka42> "conversion to"
12:55 < ozgu> then let's write that
13:08 < ozgu> What I find amusing with the cmavo descriptions is that they are written as if the words had already been in use, like ``used to form complicated le-like descriptions using "ke'a"'', which is false, because it has never been used that way (ba'ucu'iru'e). Or perhaps they meant "used to form" as in {co'u sinxa ja smuni}
13:09 < durka42> .u'i
13:11 < durka42> doi la tsani je la cirko_ ko kelci
13:15 < Ilmen> coi
13:27 < fpcalep> lo skami pe mi pu de'a .akti
13:29 < durka42> za'u re'u xu .u'i ru'e
13:30 < fpcalep> frica .i mi pu pilno ca su da pi du'e lo mo'isro sei ju'o cu'i jetnu
13:31 < ozgu> ma selpli do
13:31 < fpcalep> ma noi mo
13:39 < fpcalep> .au cuxna fi lo franseze me la .xaripoter. jo'u lo sfenyska me la jitro be lo djine
13:40 < fpcalep> .i je'u mi tatpi .i ku'i .au tadni
13:41 < fpcalep> .i do mo
13:52  * nuzba @Djemynai: Finally made it "into the studio" and recorded a song today. It's a really sad song that might make you tear up. #ZAHO #lojban [http://bit.ly/1c3Lmma]
13:53 < durka42> ue sai
13:56 < Ilmen> coi
13:56 < Ilmen> xu gubni
13:59 < Ilmen> mi ralte lo sfaile co ponbau klesi be la jitro be la djine
14:00 < fpcalep> mi go'i lo ponjo pe la .xaripoter.
14:00 < Ilmen> .i ca da mi panra tcidu lo sanbau jo'u fasybau jo'u glibau jo'u ponbau klesi
14:01 < Ilmen> .i sa'e lo pa moi ckupau .i ku'i pu masno .u'i
14:01 < Ilmen> .i ba'a nai lo bebna selsre cu pagbu lo fasybau klesi .i lo du'u la .bilbos. cu se ditcu ma kau cu naldra
14:05 < Ilmen> .i lo ponbau klesi pe la .bilbos. cu selpau lo so'u .anci .i je'u to'e sidju .u'i
14:06 < Ilmen> .i la'a se mukti tu'a lo verba
14:06 < Ilmen> .i lo nu li so'u .anci parbi cu cfipu
14:07 < Ilmen> .oi zo .anji enai anci
14:07 < Ilmen> .u'u mi'e cfipu cusku
14:08 < fpcalep> lo ponjo verba cu zmadu so'a na'e ponjo makcu lo ka se slabu lo ponjo lerfu .i va'i lo verba cukta cu no'e frili lo makcu .u'i
14:08 < Ilmen> ..u'i ba'a
14:09 < Ilmen> coi la mudypre
14:20 < Zluglu> Does anyone know the difference between http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/UI*2 and http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/evidential ? Or why ju'aku'i is in UI* rather than in UI*2 ?
14:23 < Zluglu> is it because ku’i is not a modifier like cai/sai/ru’e/cu’i/nai* ?
14:24 < durka42> the sub-selmaho classifications are kind of ad-hoc
14:24 < durka42> I'm not even sure the rules you're asking about are written down anywhere
14:24 < durka42> so I wouldn't take them too seriously :)
14:25 < ozgu> la Djemynai ku io .i'o
14:25 < ozgu> ba'a mi ba klaku lo klakydirgo tau lo selsa'a
14:25 < durka42> .e'u .ionmo tu'itsku
14:25 < ozgu> fa mi xu
14:25 < durka42> fa mi pu ku
14:26 < ozgu> xu do jai do'e .tu'uitr.
14:26 < durka42> mi me la @durkavore
14:27 < ozgu> mi me lo me lo me lo me mi
14:28 < ozgu> co'o mi'e sipybzu
14:28 < durka42> co'o
14:29 < ozgu> .a'o la'oi fpcalep cu tcidu lo pu ze se ciska be mi bei ra'a zo voi
14:29 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
14:30 < fpcalep> co'o
15:33 < Taun> coi
16:00 < Taun> What's Going On, Folks
16:43 < snanu> .ua
16:43 < mensi> snanu: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: lojban corpus search tool is korp.alexburka.com | 2015-05-01T05:49:19.
16:43 < mensi> 507Z
16:43 < snanu> "do lumci lo nei" sounds infinitely recursive
17:04 < Voltz> coi
17:06 < snanu> coi do
17:07 < snanu> xa xindo xekri xinmo xirma cu pinxe fi lo pelxu rirxe
17:08 < snanu> .i .u'i xu nandu banzu
17:09 < snanu> coi la akmnlrse
17:09 < Voltz> I'm tyring to refind a link selpa'i  sent me earlier today containing a list of music in lojban
17:10 < flaxl> coi
17:10 < flaxl> Here: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lojban_music
17:11 < snanu> and in response to your old question, this searches the entire lojban corpus but it's not like a book list or something. korp.alexburka.com
17:11 < akmnlrse> coi co'o mi'e ba zi sipna be soi lerci
17:12 < Voltz> Thank you, flaxl.
17:13 < flaxl> .i mi nelci cai lo zgike be la selpa'i
17:14 < flaxl> Especially "lo mi jufra"
17:15 < snanu> .ie .i'e
17:15 < flaxl> The Lojban socialist state-word, the sentence with all the u's, the really sped up part ... epic!
17:15 < snanu> camxes: neci cai
17:15 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected ['h] or [uU] but "i" found.
17:15 < snanu> camxes: nelci cai
17:15 < camxes> ([nelci cai] VAU)
17:16 < snanu> volts, did you see the tounge twister?
17:20 < Voltz> 'rirxe' really trips me up when trying to say it
17:20 < snanu> zo jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborke­mfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru .iisai
17:20 < snanu> I give up and stop trilling my Rs for that one
17:21 < snanu> the six india-ink black horses drink from the yellow river
17:21 < flaxl> It's OK, Selpa'i doesn't trill all his Rs either
17:22 < Voltz> I think it sounds better.
17:23 < flaxl> ie
17:25 < Voltz> I feel like a child, having to resort to the translator almost every sentence...
17:27 < Voltz> I shall understand it soon though, I'm almost done with school so I'll have all the time in the world to learn.
17:27 < snanu> Some of my best work was done during my two years of unemployment
17:28 < Voltz> I'll have a few weeks before starting JC
17:28 < snanu> do you need the translator or just a dictionary?
17:29 < Voltz> I don't need the translator but it makes things easy.. Maybe to easy as I don't really remember anything from it
17:31 < snanu> I've been putting off learning about logical prenexes. I see the more advanced users here use them sometimes
17:31 < snanu> that, and anki keeps showing me "zo'u" and I don't really know what it means but I know it's a logical prenex terminator!
17:34 <@rlpowell> Heh.
17:34 < snanu> .ua coi
17:37 < flaxl> {zo'u} is pretty straightforward. I just separates a topic/comment from the rest of the sentence
17:38 < flaxl> lo finpe zo'u mi na nelci = As for fish, I don't like it
17:38 < mensi> ba'e mi nelci i ie mi nelci
17:39 < snanu> I'm not sure I accept that a logical prenex is just a topic/comment
17:40 < flaxl> I'm not even sure what a logical prenex is
17:41 < flaxl> I just know that's what {zo'u} means
17:42 < snanu> and it seems as vague as saying mi na finpe nelci
17:42 < snanu> en: zo'u
17:42 < mensi> zo'u = [ZOhU] marks end of logical prenex quantifiers/topic identification and start of sentence bridi. |>>>
17:42 < mensi> officialdata
17:42 < snanu> oh it seems to have multiple uses in this definition
17:43 < snanu> so you are right
17:43 < ldlework> snanu: are you familiar with fopl
17:44 < snanu> can you assign da to anything? or is that just for ko'a
17:44 < snanu> na slabu
17:45 < ldlework> snanu: you don't assign da, you quantify it
17:45 < ldlework> snanu: anyway, the prenex comes from lojban's roots first-order predicate logic
17:48 < ldlework> I used to have the fopl symbols mapped but I don't anymore
17:48 < ldlework> but fopl functions start off with a quantification, and then a proposition
17:48 < ldlework> basically, a statement like "x is greater than 10" isn't a proposition, because you can't prove it's truth value, without knowing what x means
17:48 < ldlework> so you need some presuppositions, or premises
17:49 < snanu> ah like a given
17:51 < snanu> lo barda je xunre cukta cu melbi
17:51 < snanu> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/File:Complete_Lojban_Language_(785).pdf
17:51 < snanu> or at least this pdf version is
17:54 < pimlu> coi
17:54 < snanu> ki'e la .ly. .i .ai mi tcidu lo ni'o paxa pe la cylyly
17:56 < snanu> coi la pimlu co'o
17:56 < pimlu> co'oi
17:56 < flaxl> Meu deus, why does it cost $400 on Amazon?!
17:56 < pimlu> whoah whaty
17:56 < pimlu> lol
17:56 < pimlu> that's insane
17:57 < pimlu> holy crap, you're right LOL
17:57 < pimlu> did they finally run out of stock?
17:57 < flaxl> only £40 on the British Amazone though
17:57 < flaxl> Amazon*
17:57 < snanu> try ordering from here? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/the_Complete_Lojban_Language
17:57 < pimlu> they'd been running out recently (in lojban terms)
17:58 < pimlu> I'd been meaning to buy an original for a while before the new one came out
17:58 < snanu> .i tu bajra klama ma
17:58 < snanu> .u'i
17:59 < snanu> .i tu puzi bajra klama ma
18:00 < pimlu> pe'apei .uanairu'e
18:05 < _mukti_> coi jbopre
18:06 < ldlework> coi mukpre
18:07 < _mukti_> coi ui la cando gunka
18:08 < ldlework> mi puzi tolcliva ra'i le darno pe lo canlu
18:10 < ldlework> si munje
18:11 < _mukti_> ua .i ma stuzi
18:13  * nuzba @uitki: Welcome!/en - http://t.co/wdzVIsGDqj by Guskant - /* Primary resources for learning Lojban */ [http://bit.ly/1c4rf76]
18:14 < ldlework> lo ni stuzi cu dukse lo ka klani
18:15 < ldlework> .i ji'a lo ni lisri cu dunli lo go'i
18:16 < _mukti_> .i va'o ma kau fi'i do .i zabna xrukla
18:16 < ldlework> .i mi pu cilre so'i madni'i ku jecu cimzu'e so'i nunda'a
18:17 < ldlework> .i ja'e nai mi xruti fi la jbogu'e
18:19 < _mukti_> .i mi gleki lo nu do xruti .i vajni fa lo nu litru .i gasnu lo nu farvi gi'e cilre
18:21 < ldlework> .i ba'a do ka'e terlisri so'i nunli'u be do
18:22 < _mukti_> ie .i ku'i mi ba'o litru .i ca ku mi na'e litrue
18:24 < ldlework> .i xu bazaku pejgau do lo dukse jelnanba
18:26 < ldlework> lu ma pejgau li'u se tirna mi .i lo nuncando
18:26 < _mukti_> la'a cu'i go'i .e ji'a lo jduli be lo grute
18:27 < ldlework> u'i
18:27 < ldlework> mi puzi pensi lo matne li'a
18:28 < ldlework> u'i
18:29 < ldlework> va'o lo nu ro se cusku cu cusku ku ko dunda mi la DIBRAIIIIII
18:30 < ldlework> s/va'o/vo'a
18:30 < ldlework> err
18:30 < ldlework> va'o
18:30  * ldlework sighs.
18:32  * nuzba @uitki: PAGE MISE À JOUR :  Bienvenue !/fr - http://t.co/TkZOyU98Vn par Guskant - /* Étude */ [http://bit.ly/1E3g0BN]
18:48 < flaxl> .i ma fanva la .vivaldi. la .lojban.
19:58 < devi1> :-o
19:58 < flaxl> coi
20:00 < devi1> I don't actually know enough lojban to speak it yet... I just started learning earlier today
20:01 < flaxl> That's OK, I'm a beginner as well
20:01 < devi1> sed mi ja povas paroli esperanton, se vi preferus :-)
20:02 < devi1> I had to look up what coi meant lol...
20:02 < devi1> I can pronounce things though, so that's cool
20:02 < flaxl> Bone, mi ankaux scipovas Esperanton
20:03 < flaxl> My English is better though :p
20:03 < devi1> Ha, tre bone!
20:04 < flaxl> My Esperanto has been dormant the last years, but I used it pretty actively over a 2 year period or so
20:05 < devi1> In lojban, when you start a sentence with the .I separator thingy... You pronounce the .I right? There's nothing in lojban which is not pronounced, is that true?
20:05 < devi1> .i
20:05 < flaxl> Yup
20:05 < devi1> My phone likes to auto capitalize
20:05 < flaxl> Yeah, that's so annoying
20:08 < devi1> I could fix it, but it's handy for English lol
20:08 < flaxl> How do you fix it without turning off auto-correct?
20:09 < devi1> Swype has an "auto capitalize" feature. I always disable auto-correct anyway. I have a couple tasker profiles to change keyboards when I go into certain apps too
20:10 < devi1> You might not know what I'm talking about if you're not familiar with Android phones (and maybe even if you are familiar)
20:10 < flaxl> Yeah, I know about it
20:10 < flaxl> I have a Samsung phone with Android myself
20:11 < devi1> Oh ok
20:11 < flaxl> I played around with Swype and a few other keyboard systems, but they're just not good enough with Norwegian, which is the language I send texts in 97% of the time
20:12 < devi1> Tasker changes from Swype to hacker's keyboard when I open an ssh session or terminal app, and I don't use wechat anymore, but when I did, it would switch to an esperanto keyboard when it was open
20:14 < devi1> And the wechat profile would also show a little button on the screen to easily toggle between English and esperanto
20:15 < flaxl> never heard of wechat before :o
20:15 < flaxl> thought it was a type for "webchat" at first, lol
20:16 < devi1> WeChat lol
20:17 < devi1> It's a lot like what's app but super popular in China
20:18 < flaxl> Okay
20:19 < devi1> There are a few esperanto group chats that I used to participate in daily, but I found that the Chinese people censored themselves a lot so it limited the topics we could chat about and I got bored with it
20:20 < flaxl> Are you Chinese?
20:20 < devi1> There were hardly any people outside of China, and even speaking with them, Chinese people would censor conversations in the group chat
20:21 < devi1> No, I'm in the US...
20:21 < flaxl> Ah, ok
20:22 < flaxl> didnt get why you would only talk to Chinese people at first
20:23 < flaxl> so basically only Chinese people use WeChat?
20:23 < devi1> I got tired of the same old "bonan matenon, kara usonano, kiel vi dormis?" ... Same conversation every day lol
20:24 < flaxl> .u'i (haha)
20:25 < devi1> Yeah, WeChat is very popular there... There were a few people from nepal, Brazil, Spain... Maybe a few other countries
20:27 < devi1> I have nothing against Chinese people at all, but I'm interested in learning about other cultures...not just how they want to present themselves to the world, but how individuals actually feel, and they weren't willing to talk on a personal level
20:28 < flaxl> I see
20:28 < flaxl> better to get to know them in person ;)
20:28 < devi1> At one point, one of them told me that Chinese people have evolved past the point of needing glasses... That they've somehow fixed vision problems altogether
20:29 < devi1> o.O
20:29 < flaxl> that's ridiculous
20:30 < flaxl> especially since so many Chinese people wear glasses
20:30 < devi1> That's what I thought too... The same person also called smoking cigarettes one of his hobbies
20:31 < flaxl> That one I've heard before ... But it's usually meant ironically
20:32 < devi1> I smoked for a long time and struggled to quit, along with my wife so we could have children and not worry about their health...And he suggested starting back up again after the baby was born... Didn't seem ironic at all
20:34 < devi1> Overall they were very very nice, but I got bored with them after a while
20:34 < devi1> Anyway, I'm way off topic here lol
20:35 < devi1> How long have you been studying lojban?
20:36 < flaxl> The first time was five years ago, lol
20:36 < flaxl> but I only used it for a few weeks, maybe a couple of months
20:36 < flaxl> started again a week ago
20:37 < devi1> Oh ok
20:37 < devi1> Is it pretty easy to pick up the grammar?
20:37 < flaxl> much more so now than it was five years ago
20:38 < devi1> Is that just because there are more resources?
20:38 < flaxl> back then the only course was Lojban For Beginners, which is outdated and riddled with errors
20:38 < devi1> In reading through the wave lessons
20:38 < flaxl> now we also have the Wave Lessons (which I haven't really used myself TBH) and recently the draft of the Crash Course
20:39 < flaxl> which is the one I've been using
20:39 < flaxl> I think it does a really good job of teaching the basics, and it also uses normal terminology instead of those Lojban words
20:41 < devi1> I don't mind using whatever terminology as long as it's explained... The grammar seems so vastly different from ever other language that I don't think it could be explained in normal terms
20:45 < flaxl> the CC does a pretty good job on that IMO
20:46 < devi1> The bridi remind me of running commands in bash lol...except the first argument comes before the command
20:47 < flaxl> You'll pick up the proper Lojban terms later anyway
20:47 < devi1> I'll check out the crash course... Do you have a link?
20:47 < flaxl> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)
20:48 < devi1> Cool thanks
20:53 < devi1> ki'e*
21:23 < pimlu> coi
21:23 < flaxl> coi
21:24 < pimlu> .i mi puze'i tinju'i la .djustis. .oinai
21:25 < pimlu> noi mi puzi facki ke'a
21:25 < pimlu> si fi ke'a
21:27 < flaxl> mi na pu tinju'i ri
21:28 < snanu> en: tinju'i
21:28 < mensi> tinju'i [< tirna jundi ≈ Hear attend] = t1=j1 listens to/pays attention to sound t2=j2 with ambient background t3. |>>>
21:28 < mensi> Cf. zgatirna. |>>> noralujv
21:29 < snanu> tirna ji tcidu
21:31 < pimlu> jenai
21:31 < pimlu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_%28band%29
21:34 < snanu> .ua mi nelci la .djystis.
21:35 < snanu> mi pluka tu'a le dansu
21:35 < snanu> pe la .djystis.
21:41 < pimlu> .ua je'e mi srera
23:16 < gleki> ozgu: which symbol do you suggest instead of ">" for "conversion to"? It must be simple and understandable for noobs
23:19 < gleki> flaxl: mi pu fanva la vivaldis la lojban i xu da nabmi
23:19 < gleki> flaxl: have you tried MultiLing? It even has swyping for Lojban
23:21 < gleki> devi1: you may try joining WhatsApp where there are groups for different languages. For Esperanto the largest group I know of is not very active but at least they send pictures, not super-boring, although not super interesting
23:24 < flaxl> No, I haven't tried MultiLing. Will check it out, thanks
23:26 < flaxl> .i na nabmi .i mi pu kucli
23:27 < gleki> ozgu: maybe this symbol ⇒ ?
23:27 < gleki> flaxl: https://sites.google.com/site/cernidirgo/it-questions demonstration on how to use MultiLing
23:30 < gleki> hm probably this arrow is better ➔
23:31 < flaxl> ki'e .i mi ca catlu
23:34 < flaxl> .u'i mi viska cmene do .i "lu la gleki pu nelci ti li'u"
23:34 < gleki> xu do visla lo cmene be mi
23:35 < flaxl> go'i
23:35 < gleki> *viska
23:35 < gleki> i je'e
23:46 < gleki> mensi: doi la fpcal|selpahi la'e lu lo certu e la margarita zo'u mi no drata mo'u fanva http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/muplis/index.html#sisku/тьма
23:46 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.la.gy. di'a cusku da
--- Day changed Sat May 02 2015
01:10  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: ca lo nu mi djica kei mi ba ciska zukte .i mi ca'o cinmo lo ka zifre lo nu nalzukte .i i'e se mukti lo nu djica enai lo nu bilga .i  #lojban [http://bit.ly/1dC1tro]
01:15 < Rodericus> cerni coi
01:31 < gleki> coi
01:37 < gleki> jb:roi
01:37 < mensi> roi = roi [preposition] — number => preposition for how many times it happens
01:37 < mensi> :mi pu re roi penmi la Alis — ''I met Alice twice, two times.''
01:37 < mensi> :Comment: event happens (n) times. The number (n) is put in front of roi.
01:46  * nuzba @uitki: L17-03 - http://t.co/ik37NWciym by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1DJCQOq]
01:59 < ozgu> gleki: simply write "to"
01:59 < ozgu> gleki: or "number to preposition conversion"
01:59 < ozgu> gleki: after all, "preposition" is a more complicated word than "conversion"
02:00 < ozgu> gleki: if you really want simple English: "turn number into preposition"
02:01 < ozgu> gleki: "make a preposition of a number"... you get the gist
02:01 < ozgu> or "from a number", not sure which preposition is correct :)
02:03 < gleki> i used an arrow
02:03 < gleki> ➜
02:03 < gleki> which is converted to "=>" in this chat
02:03 < ozgu> then, I'll read it as "number implies preposition"
02:03 < gleki> earlier i used "from ... to ..."
02:04 < gleki> ozgu: then what is the correct arrow?
02:04 < ozgu> no arrow is correct!
02:04 < ozgu> just use text
02:04 < gleki> that will take more time since ~40 defs are like that
02:05 < Rodericus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposition_and_postposition
02:05 < Rodericus> :)
02:07 < Rodericus> Or is the intended meaning that the whole acts as a preposition for its selbri?
02:09 < gleki> jb:roi
02:09 < mensi> roi = roi [preposition] — turn number into preposition for how many times it happens
02:09 < mensi> :mi pu re roi penmi la Alis — I met Alice twice, two times.
02:09 < mensi> :Comment: event happens (n) times. The number (n) is put in front of roi.
02:09 < gleki> ozgu: better?
02:10 < gleki> Rodericus: in Lojban prepositions can act as adverbs.
02:12 < gerku> good morning
02:13 < gleki> jb:roi
02:13 < mensi> roi = roi [preposition] — turn number into adverb (or preposition) showing for how many times it
02:13 < mensi> happens
02:13 < mensi> :mi pu re roi penmi la Alis — I met Alice twice, two times.
02:13 < mensi> :Comment: event happens (n) times. The number (n) is put in front of roi.
02:16 < Rodericus> gleki: But {roi} itself isn't a preposition as it seems when first reading the beginning of the definition. That's what motivated my comment. It's clearer at the end after rereading. :)
02:20 < gleki> Rodericus: what about "turn number into adverb (or preposition)"?
02:22 <@Broca> Where did mensi take the example from?
02:22 < gleki> from the main google doc
02:22 < gleki> of La Bangu dictionary
02:23 < Rodericus> I meant the use of the word “preposition” in the beginning ("roi = roi [preposition]") as it seems to imply it's used before the word it goes with, the number in this case, although this is clarified at the end of the definition.
02:24 <@Broca> Huh. I assumed it was Lojban.
02:24 < gleki> Broca: explained here http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu:_Dictionary
02:25 < gleki> Rodericus: it can be used before a noun
02:27 < Rodericus> gleki: Yes, but the thing working as a preposition is the whole structure ‹number + {roi}›, not {roi} alone, which is rather a postpositions for its number, isn't it?
02:27 < Rodericus> postposition*
02:27 < ozgu> gleki: yeah, that's better
02:28 < ozgu> thanks
02:28 < Rodericus> Just that detail in the definition. :) It's clear when reading the whole thing.
02:28 < gleki> Huh, we dont have good examples or {roi} as a preposition.
02:29 < gleki> {xo roi lo djedi do do catlu}
02:29 < gleki> {lo rismi cu te purdi fe'e so'i roi lo terdi}
02:53  * nuzba @Rodericus: @Dank_scriptor mi djica lo nu tcidu lo frili ja tordu nuzba bau lo jbobau [http://bit.ly/1I4UMuB]
02:54 < Rodericus> Oh, it also detects “jbobau”!
03:02 < kaltci> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/RAtE7Yk-dqw/zRcL3nToQBcJ
03:02 < kaltci> sei ca lo cabdei mi cilre
03:07 < Ilmen> .u'a dai
03:07 < kaltci> prane co se prali
03:13 < b_jonas> .i oi nai lo vensa patlu ca pu'i se citka
03:34 < gleki> Ilmen: now i can mass tag sentences in tatoeba using .cvs files as input. so depending on effectively i fight my laziness probably in a week or sooner we'll be ready for a Total Scan of Lojban Tatoeba.
03:35 < gleki> {lo no cmima} was once inscribed on some wall vau ba'anaizo'oru'e
03:35 < Ilmen> je'e
05:08 < Ilmen> coi
05:09 < timon_`> coi
05:10 < Ilmen> coi la .timon.
05:10 < gleki> coi tsurixi
05:10 < Ilmen> do mo
05:11 < Ilmen> .i ba za lo mentu be li ji'i re no cu cfari fa lo voksnu nu jmaji
05:11 < Ilmen> Mumble: zbaga.ax.lt:64738
05:12 < Ilmen> ti judri
05:12 < timon_`> ki'e
05:12 < Ilmen> .i lo prula'i kibyse'u co'u selfu .i ja'e bo pilno lo cnino kibyse'u
05:13 < timon_`> .i ku'i bo mi bilga cliva .i mi ba xruti (how do i say in vono mentu)
05:13 < Ilmen> "ba za lo mentu be li vono"
05:14 < Ilmen> je'e
05:14 < timon_`> ki'e
05:14 < Ilmen> co'o do
05:14 < gleki> mi na ba zvati
05:14 < gleki> i baziku mi de'a jundi
05:14 < Ilmen> je'e co'o do
05:15 < timon_`> co'o
05:15 < Ilmen> .i mi na bilgygau lo nu su'o da mi kansa .i sa'u mi jundi la .mambl. i ro da zifre lo ka kansa ja na kansa
05:15 < timon_`> ma zo biziku smuni
05:15 < Ilmen> "ba zi ku"
05:16 < Ilmen> .i se smuni lu lo cmalu cu temci li'u
05:18  * nuzba @LojbanHQ: Lojban is so fitting for magic spells (from Facebook) [http://bit.ly/1JYSlHb]
05:18 < Ilmen> .u'i
05:19 < timon_`> je'e .i mi na'e pu jimpe lo du'u lo cmavo simxu ka snipa(they stick together)
05:19 < timon_`> mi cliva
05:19 < timon_`> co'o
05:21  * nuzba @LojbanHQ: Lojban is in the forefront of creative experience - which will slow it down as it strengthens it, like a tsunami approaching a shoreline. [http://bit.ly/1JYSyua]
05:21  * nuzba @LojbanHQ: Lojban is like a tsunami http://t.co/gXu0rQQpop [http://bit.ly/1JYSzhB]
05:33  * nuzba @uitki: 已更新页面：欢迎！ (中文) - http://t.co/fD9REmW5ng 由 Guskant - /* 学习资料 */ [http://bit.ly/1JYUhj5]
05:36 < Ilmen> co'a voksnu
05:36 < Ilmen> .i la .niftyg. mi kansa
05:59 < devi1> gleki, thanks for the suggestion :-)
06:04 < timon_`> mi xruti
06:18 < gerku> sa'ei bau
06:39 < flaxl> coi
06:40 < flaxl> Plan for today: Study Lojban until lo mi zargu cu farlu lo loldi
06:40 < flaxl> First order of business: Reviewing 200+ words on Memrise .i ui
06:45 < Zluglu> good luck
06:49 < Ilmen> We're discussiong in Lojban vocally on Mumble right now
06:49 < flaxl> Cool
06:50 < flaxl> .i xo prenu
06:51 < Ilmen> nau zo'u lo vo prenu cu casnu
06:52 < flaxl> je'e
06:56 < Ilmen> Mumble:  zbaga.ax.lt:64738
06:56 < Ilmen> ^ ti judri
06:58 < devi1> ... I've read that the letter r can be pronounced any way that rs are typically pronounced...but do people typically roll or trill their rs? Is there a standard?
07:01 < Ilmen> devi1: Usually, people use alveolar trills
07:02 < Ilmen> But American Lojbanists more usually use the approximant (English) R
07:02 < devi1> Alveolar trill would be like the esperanto r?
07:02 < Ilmen> Yeah
07:02 < Ilmen> Like italian R
07:03 < devi1> That's how it sounds in my head
07:58 < shepheb> any thoughts on how to express "by way of", in the sense of "he grunted by way of a greeting."
07:58 < shepheb> I feel like there must be a modal for "serving in capacity of" or similar.
07:59 < gleki> ta'i?
08:00 < gleki> although im no good here.
08:00 < Zluglu> (vlasisku, why you no connect)
08:00 < shepheb> whoops, mischan
08:01 < shepheb> arg, so much flail.
08:01 < gleki> .w by way of
08:01 < phenny> Couldn't get any definitions for by way of.
08:01 < gleki> 2. For the purpose of; as a means, instance, type or form of
08:02 < gleki> this ^ ?
08:02 < Zluglu> en:purpose
08:02 < shepheb> looks like JVS is down?
08:02 < gleki> Why they hesitated I never could tell, unless they did it by way of a joke.
08:02 < mensi> 169 da se tolcri: terzu'e, selbanzu, selbru, seltci, tefi'e, tepi'o, terbatke, terbilni, velbe'e, zilfi'i, banzu,
08:02 < mensi> ba'orzu'e, batke, batke zei uidje, batkyfoi, baupli, bende, bijgri, bilni, birjinskami, blurdrakono, boldi'u, bukydi'u,
08:02 < mensi> burcu, caidji, caitcu, campu, cancydji, ci'arfi'i, ciksi, ckufi'i, cmata'orskami, cmizu'e, dadne'ota'u, dagypli,
08:02 < mensi> datcinselta'u, dau'a, de'ai, de'au, de'oi, desmi'i, dijrbasilika, dijypanka, dinju, di'uzbe, djica, djicai, djicni,
08:02 < mensi> djisku, doi'a, du'edji, fetpibyta'u, finti, forca, gaurzu'e, gledji, glife, jansu, jbogri, jbopli, kagni, kagycfagau,
08:02 < Zluglu> vlasisku is down
08:02 < mensi> kagysamseltcana, kaidji, kajna, kalte, kamni, keidji, kerfrcampu, kilga'axa'i, klupe, kulgu'a, lacni, larfi'i, liste,
08:02 < mensi> loibru, manfyta'u, masrbasilika, maudji, mujysamseltcana, nakpibyta'u, nalbrezu'e, naldjica, narjista'u, nerta'u, nilce,
08:02 < mensi> ninfesyborpli, nitcu, pacyselzu'e, panka, pibyta'u, pilno, plicme, plicu'a, plika'e, plivei, plixau, plixauvla, po'edji,
08:02 < mensi> porzu'e, ...
08:03 < shepheb> I think the underlying jbovlaste is down, which will stumble most of the dictionaries online.
08:03 < gleki> no, they are on different servers. mensi uses offline dumps
08:04 < Zluglu> en:tezu'e
08:04 < mensi> tezu'e = [BAI*] zukte modal, 3rd place                            purposefully; (as an action) with goal ...
08:04 < shepheb> I actually can't hit anything on lojban.org
08:05 < gleki> Okay, sending an SMS to Robin of this
08:05 < Zluglu> en:ta'i
08:05 < mensi> ta'i = [BAI] tadji modal, 1st place (in manner 3)              methodically; by method ...
08:05 < shepheb> gleki: that definition, "for the purpose of; as a means, instance, type or form of" is pretty good, if there's a valsi to match.l
08:06 < gleki> for the purpose of is {tezu'e}, "as a means" is rather {sepi'o}
08:06 < flaxl> "Lojban.org is DOWN for everyone.
08:06 < flaxl> It is not just you. The server is not responding..."
08:06 < shepheb> I could also use tadji as a bridi, since that's about right.
08:06 < gleki> Robin got my SMS
08:07 < gleki> "type, form" is {tai} but {tai} is translated back as "like ..., in a manner ..."
08:07 < gleki> {ta'i} is "by the method of"
08:07 <@rlpowell> Heya.
08:08 < gleki> I can humbly suggest that "by way of " is polysemic in English
08:08 < gleki> rlpowell: coi
08:09 < gleki> "serving as   ⇒ by way of introduction" - it's rather {tepi'o tu'a}
08:09 <@rlpowell> appears to be so busy (CPU) it can't do anything.
08:09 <@rlpowell> Gonna reboot.
08:10 < gleki> "Dena closed the door of the drawing-room firmly `You're mad to come here," she said by way of greeting to Harry." - I would use { ... cusku lu do klama ti ki'u lo nu fengu li'u se ba'i lo nu rinsa}
08:12 < shepheb> ah, that works nicely for my case as well.
08:12 < gleki> {se ba'i } is "instead of "
08:13 < gleki> If I say {ne te pi'o lo nu rinsa} it'd be "using that phrase with the purpose of greeting"
08:15 < gleki> {te zu'e lo nu rinsa} - "doing that (i.e. saying that phrase) with the goal of greeting." I don't think directly using {tezu'e} will lead to the desired meaning here.
08:15 < shepheb> se ba'i is more the sense here. blunt statement instead of a proper greeting.
08:15 < shepheb> it wouldn't be fair to say the speaker had the intention to greet the hearer.
08:17 < gleki> "I'd like to say a few words by way of apology." - hm
08:19 < shepheb> that sounds like "with purpose" {te pi'o}?
08:20 < Zluglu> en:pilno
08:20 < mensi> pilno = x1 uses/employs x2 [tool, apparatus, machine, agent, acting entity, material] for purpose x3.
08:20 < Zluglu> en:zukte
08:20 < mensi> zukte = x1 is a volitional entity employing means/taking action x2 for purpose/goal x3/to end x3.
08:20 < gleki> shepheb: since English isnt my native language I have no clue.
08:20 < shepheb> if I may ask, which language is?
08:22 < niek> I think gleki's native language is Russian, as far as I recall?
08:22 < gleki> "My uncle told me the story by way of a joke." - He converted the meaning of the story so that it became funny to the listener.
08:22 < gleki> shepheb: ie mi rusko
08:23 <@rlpowell> gleki: SHould be up in the next 5 minutes; I'll be AFK.  page me if it's not up in 10, please.
08:23 < shepheb> .ua
08:24 < gleki> Maybe {lo mi famti pu smusku fi mi fe lo lisri ne tai lo nu ri xajmi}
08:24 < gleki> oops, doesnt work
08:24 < shepheb> pretty widely polysemous, this phrase.
08:24 < gleki> Maybe {lo mi famti pu smusku fi mi fe lo lisri tai lo nu ri xajmi}
08:25 < gleki> hm, again doesnt work, wth
08:27  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: @alex_macdonald @curiouswavefn No, the real moral of this story is to ragequit English and learn #Lojban :P        .i do ba gleki [http://bit.ly/1FFQiZF]
08:27 < gleki> lo mi famti pu smusku fi mi fe lo lisri ne tai lo nu ke'a xajmi
08:29 < gleki> lo mi famti pu smusku fi mi fe lo lisri tai lo ka jai gau xamji fai ri
08:29 < gleki> *xajmi
08:30 < gleki> Finally I'm going with {lo mi famti pu smusku fi mi fe lo lisri ne tai lo xajmi
08:30 < gleki> }
08:32 < shepheb> different question: how does one express "once per week" and similar. I found a mriste thread on it but couldn't follow the discussion well enough to understand the outcome. {paroi lo jeftu} as a UI interjection.
08:33 < shepheb> er, missed some question marks in there.
08:35 < gleki> "I'd like to say a few words by way of apology." = {au cusku lo so'o valsi se tai lo ka cpedu lo ka fraxu}
08:35 < gleki> "I said it by way of a joke.
08:35 < gleki> " - {mi pu xalbo cusku}
08:36 < gleki> Btw, lojban.org is up
08:36 < gleki> "once per week" - paroi ro djedi
08:36 < gleki> si jeftu
08:37 < gleki> "once per week" - paroi ro jeftu
08:37 < gleki> I'm replying slowly cuz I'm adding each reply to Tatoeba
08:39 < gleki> {pa roi lo jeftu} is a prepositional phrase.
08:39 < gleki> preposition+noun/phrase after it
08:39 < gleki> Or you may consider it an adverb.
08:39 < gleki> That would be the same.
08:41 < shepheb> right. I was guessing it would work thus, as a self-contained prepositional phrase.
08:41 < gleki> Btw, this "by way of" question reminded me of the problem of "as" like in {I like you as a friend". Many people suggested many things. But I guess it was just polysemy of English and no dsingle solution is possible.
08:43 < shepheb> I continue to guess right most of the time, but with no idea whether I'm right or not.
08:43 < shepheb> I guess that's good.
08:43 < shepheb> what's the name of the tool that searches Tatoeba (and others?) for examples?
08:44 < gleki> I hope that in the nearest future i fight my laziness, create a google doc with all Tatoeba Lojban sentences, we tag them and then i upload our tags back. Then Muplis will become a high quality app.
08:44 < gleki> tatoeba.org itself allows searching on their website.
08:44 < shepheb> that was it, la muplis was that one I was looking for
08:45 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Muplis
08:45 < gleki> La Muplis isnt updated regularly (only on demand by asking me) and the lack of tags is the general problem of Tatoeba
08:45 < gleki> Now I always add tags when adding sentences to it.
08:46 < shepheb> I'll start trying to do the same, if I find examples there.
08:46 < gleki> In future I just wont show in Muplis any non-tagged sentences
08:58 < shepheb> nothing for haircut... kreka'a = x1 cuts x2's hair with scissors/razor/(tool) x3 ?
08:58 < shepheb> there is krevi'u, for "shave, remove hair" but that sounds more extreme.
08:59 < gleki> actually {katna} is not cutting out
08:59 < gleki> en:katna
08:59 < mensi> katna = x1 (tool/blade/force) cuts [through]/splits/divides x2 (object) into pieces x3.
08:59 < gleki> thus "cutting into pieces"
08:59 < gleki> shepheb: you need "haircut" as a noun?
09:00 < shepheb> yeah, the noun sense more so.
09:00 < durka42> nunkrevi'u
09:01 < shepheb> perhaps the problem is the English translation as "shave", since vimcu just means to subtract from a whole, not to remove.
09:02 < gleki> " the style in which hair has been cut"? tarmi loi kerfa
09:02 < shepheb> ah, I mean the sense of "an event of having one's hair cut", rather than "hairstyle".
09:02 < gleki> because it's not just cutting, other processes are usually involved
09:02 < shepheb> good point
09:03 < gleki> if event then yes, {lonu vimcu lo kerfa}
09:03 < shepheb> yes, that phrase, or nunkrevi'u, sounds good for the event of getting hair cut.
09:03 < gleki> {lo nu loi kerfa co'a se tarmi}
10:29 < gleki> "Mozilla is officially beginning to phase out non-secure HTTP to prefer HTTPS instead. After a robust discussion on the mailing list, the company will boldly start removing capabilities of the non-secure web. " Relevant to mw.lojban.org
10:30 < demize> (You can just get a free 3-year cert from wosign or whatever though)
10:31 < gleki> that's not our problem. our problem is that nobody cares.
10:31 < demize> heh
10:33 < gleki> Btw I looked at PCFGs and ... that's not what I'd like to delve into. Too many limitations and in terms of Lojban no significant moving foward.
10:34 < Ilmen> ta'i ma ka'e tinju'i lo cnino selsa'a pe la .djemynais.
10:34 < Ilmen> .i ti'e la danmo ba'o tinju'i
10:36  * nuzba @HQC_Universe: "HQC - Alphabet for Lojban" by PathosGlasbeard http://t.co/HHiFVMcIey [http://bit.ly/1QYAOV1]
11:06 < bigcentaur> .i .ui ze'o melbi
11:06 < shepheb> that was an odd nuzba. I like the name of the RPG that was for, though. "Hive Queen and Country"
12:41 < Ilmen> coi
12:45 < flaxl> coi
13:13 < gleki> ue la zbabu cu senpa lo nu xukau ka'e ca'o jatna
13:14 < Taun> coi!?
13:21 < gleki> coi
13:25  * nuzba @uitki: LLG Members - http://t.co/a8ygugKOjw by Mukti - Updated current membership [http://bit.ly/1E4ZgtU]
13:25  * nuzba @uitki: the Logical Language Group - http://t.co/tcFnYfa0vT by Mukti - /* Who */ Members, Directors and Officers [http://bit.ly/1IzPuq5]
13:26 < gleki> ue ue ue
13:28 < durka42> do uenmo ma
13:30 < gleki> lo nu la mukti cu zukte
13:30 < durka42> la mukti cu mukti
13:42 < Taun> za'aru'e
15:48 < durka42> coi
15:48 < durka42> ma mo
15:53 < mischief> where do i get a copy of the complete lojban language for a reasonable price?
15:54 < durka42> I bought mine from Amazon
15:54 < durka42> but it's available for free online in several places
15:54 < mischief> i would like a physical copy.. but
15:54 < mischief> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0966028309?seller=A2STSAFJP9WB2P
15:54 < mischief> and http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0966028309/ref=tmm_hrd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&sr=8-1&qid=1430607142 is $1000???
15:55 < durka42> waat
15:55 < durka42> when I bought it it was like $30
15:55 < durka42> Amazon may be out of stock though
15:56 <@rlpowell> Yes.
15:56 <@rlpowell> That's what happens when they're out of stock.
15:56 <@rlpowell> You can buy them from Bob for $30 or whatever, but he's slow.
15:56 < mischief> :(
15:56 < durka42> does he still need someone to drive to VA and go spelunking in his basement for the last few copies?
15:56 < durka42> we might get CLL 1.1 printed before that happens :p
15:56 <@rlpowell> durka42: Probably, you should ask.
15:56 <@rlpowell> Possibly, if I can get lightning source to respond to my emails.
15:57 < durka42> oi dai
15:57 <@rlpowell> Well, I can just call them.
15:57 <@rlpowell> I just haven't yet.
15:57 < durka42> yeah
15:58 < durka42> you've seen the continued progress (mostly/entirely la Ilmen) on the -volunteers branch?
15:59 < durka42> rlpowell: ^
16:00 < durka42> mischief: so, I guess wait until either we get the remaining copies to Amazon or the new CLL 1.1 (which is an incremental update) gets printed
16:00 <@rlpowell> durka42: I haven't actually *looked*, yet, but yes.
16:01 <@rlpowell> mischief: Or order from Bob directly; form's on the website.
16:01 < mischief> when's the new copy out?
16:01 <@rlpowell> Some time in the future.
16:01 < mischief> i am dying sometime in the future
16:02 < mischief> :)
17:00 < pimlu> coi
17:02 < durka42> coi py
17:07 < durka42> doi pimlu do mo
17:07 < b_jonas> .i xu facki lo du'u ma cmene lo spero prenu poi ce'u .irci tavla ma'a pu zi ku
17:07 < pimlu> .ua .u'u .u'i
17:08 < pimlu> .i bazi mulno lonu mi se kamjunmre
17:08 < pimlu> fa lonu*
17:08 < durka42> ua di'ai
17:09 < durka42> mi za'e kongratu do
17:09 < durka42> to ma valsi lo si'o kongratu toi
17:09 < b_jonas> je'e kamjunmre poi mo
17:10 < pimlu> ki'e
17:10 < b_jonas> y
17:10 < b_jonas> si
17:10 < b_jonas> sa je'e do'u kamjunmre poi mo
17:10 < durka42> mi ji'a mo'u se kamjunmre .iku'i za'o gunka lo za'u datnynoi
17:10 < b_jonas> sa
17:10 < b_jonas> sa je'e do'u lo kamjunmre poi mo
17:11 < durka42> mi stidi lu je'e se kamjunmre be fo ma li'u
17:13 < pimlu> .i kamjunmre fo la'o gy differential equations gy
17:13 < b_jonas> je'e
17:13 < durka42> ua
17:13 < durka42> mi pu tadni ra
17:14 < pimlu> .i pe'i carmi co cinri
17:15 < durka42> ui dai
17:15 < durka42> pe'i cinri milxe .i tadni ki'u lo nu sarcu lo .enge
17:15 < durka42> si si lo me lo .enge moi
17:16 < pimlu> .i mi pu kamjunmre fo roda poi drata dy.ebu ku'o ra'a lo zi kulcitsi
17:16 < durka42> ba'a
17:16 < durka42> xu DE traji lo ka cinri
17:17 < pimlu> .i mi tadni mu'u lonu .ai tadni ji'a lo cmaci
17:17 < pimlu> mu'i*
17:18 < durka42> xu do kulmu'o
17:20 < pimlu> .i go'i ba zu sa'e lo nanca be lici
17:20 < pimlu> .i mi me'oi freshman
17:20 < durka42> ua
17:21 < durka42> ma'urcu'e sei mi sruma
17:21 < pimlu> go'i
17:21 < durka42> .i mi ji'a kulmu'o ba lo nanca be li ci la'a lo balcu'e ku'i
17:23 < pimlu> .yy .uanairu'e xu me'oi master's
17:24 < durka42> na go'i .i mikce pe'a
17:24 < pimlu> .i .ue banli
17:25 < pimlu> .i tadni lo saske be ma sa'e
17:25 < durka42> ku'i ba lo ca kulcitsi mi balcre tu'a lo sampre gi'e nai kulmu'o
17:26 < durka42> to .u'i mi na cinmo lo ka balcre toi
17:27 < pimlu> .io je'e
17:28 < durka42> mi de'a jundi
17:53 < durka42> di'a
19:56 < durka42> vlaste: soi (terminator)
19:56 < vlaste> soi (terminator) = se'u
19:56 < durka42> vlaste: soi
19:56 < vlaste> soi = discursive: reciprocal sumti marker; indicates a reciprocal relationship between sumti.
19:57 < durka42> strange
19:57 < durka42> old-soi but it lists se'u as the terminator
19:57 < durka42> vlasisku's terminator knowledge just comes from a hardcoded text file, uinai
19:57 < durka42> I wonder if there is a way to automatically discover them
19:57 < durka42> from the grammar, maybe
20:16 < durka42> actually I don't see how to get it even from the grammar
20:56  * nuzba @mbthebulldog: An Enigmatic Lojban Game?         Category: Lojban Games - ne la selpà'i http://t.co/NpBQRVhM88 [http://bit.ly/1PffLtP]
21:13 < durka42> cizra je ci'izra
21:23 < GothAlice> xu'esolris — I think I'm doing something wrong in my attempt to create a ljuvo.  I'm attempting to combine xunre and solris (which has no affix forms) as in Red-type-of-Sun (solar body at centre of Earth's solar system), but it's being parsed back as a combination of xunre (correct), solri, rismi.  What am I forgetting this late at night?
21:24 < GothAlice> Oh, wait, I can't do that with solris. It's a proper name.  >_<
21:24  * GothAlice needs sleep.
21:29 < durka42> xu'esolris is a name too :)
21:29 < GothAlice> This is true.
21:31 < GothAlice> Now I'm stuck digging around for synonyms for "legacy".  Hmm.
21:33 < GothAlice> Future-history [bavycitri] may be an appropriate metaphor.
21:46 < GothAlice> Recruit(ed) and conscript(ed), other gismu/ljuvo that don't seem to already exist.  :(
21:48 < durka42> seems like they should be related to {cmibi'o}
21:48 < GothAlice> Volunteer, too.  Really?  Indeed, these all seem to be variations on {cmibi'o}.
21:49 < GothAlice> I'm just surprised no-one else has yet introduced these variations to the lexicon.  ;)
21:49 < durka42> cmibi'ocpe, cmibi'omi'e, cmibi'obai come to mind
21:49 < durka42> but yeah, good point
21:52 < GothAlice> Very nice on those variations, BTW.  They do seem fairly "correct" in terms of representing the volition of each.
21:54 < durka42> I'm not real clear on how to use {bapli}
21:54 < durka42> it's definition doesn't make sense — x1 is a {ka}? applied to what? and then the second sentence says x2 is the property, not x1...
21:55 < durka42> maybe gleki has a better definition :)
21:55 < durka42> lb: bapli
21:55 < mensi> bapli = bapli — x1(clause)  forces, convinces  x2(clause)  to occur
21:55 < mensi> :lo bapli — force.
21:55 < mensi> :lo tcima pu bapli lo nu le nakni cu stali lo zdani — The violent weather forced him to stay at home.
21:55 < mensi> :lo snuti pu bapli lo nu le prenu cu zenba co jundi — The accident convinced him to be more careful.
21:55 < mensi> :Related words: fanta, rinju, jimte, jitro, rinka, krinu, zukte, tolpro, danre, bai, marxa, tinsa,
21:55 < mensi> xarnu
21:55 < durka42> ua
21:55 < GothAlice> When combining for a ljuvo I'd interpret it as "forced/compelled event/occurence determining manifestation"-of-"joining group".
21:55 < durka42> ie
21:56 < GothAlice> Heh; so hard discussing tenseless terms in natural languages.  XD
21:57 < GothAlice> I dislike how {bapli} is applied with two very distinct forcefulness levels in those two examples.
21:57 < GothAlice> "forced" vs. "convinced" in the English versions.
21:58  * GothAlice re-reads more carefully.
21:58 < GothAlice> Yeah, I'm reading those right.
21:59 < GothAlice> Ignore me, I'm being silly at 1am.
22:01 < durka42> gosh, it's 1am already
22:01 < durka42> I should sleep
22:01 < GothAlice> ^_^
22:02 < GothAlice> I'm busy hacking away on {la tolcpas. cnita ractsani}, my latest Apex {spapre} character.  Much background information to write.
22:03 < durka42> .i'e
22:05 < GothAlice> If anyone's a Niven fan, he's a {rircaucmibi’obai} working at the {djines.} black-ops research solar system, modelled on Niven's Integral Trees.  (It's a doughnut torus of atmosphere without solid ground.)
22:06 < durka42> an orphan conscript?
22:06 < GothAlice> Yup.
22:06 < GothAlice> Parents died, and he was "recruited" (forcefully).
22:06 < GothAlice> Think Ender's Game, but with 100% more orphan.
22:06 < durka42> aha
22:07 < GothAlice> It helps to make spooks out of orphans.  No familial ties and whatnot.  ;)
22:07 < durka42> it's not like they were going to have a normal childhood anyway…
22:07 < GothAlice> Pretty much.
22:08 < GothAlice> https://soundcloud.com/gothalice/sets/apex-leaves/s-4cj4u < I use musical playlists to help shape the emotional feel of a character.  (These types of playlists tell stories and are meant to be played in-order.)
22:08 < GothAlice> The first song deserves a trigger warning.
22:09 < durka42> I've been trying to work on a paper but I keep getting distracted by this ongoing lojban Diplomacy game
22:09 < durka42> what kind of a trigger warning?
22:09 < GothAlice> Suicide.
22:09 < GothAlice> (The origin of the orphan thing.)
22:09 < durka42> je'e
22:09 < GothAlice> {tolcpas.} is currently in prison, too, explaining the end-quarter of the list.
22:10 < GothAlice> ^_^ My RPG characters tend to be pretty "heavy".
22:11 < durka42> well, soundcloud refuses to play the first song, so no big :)
22:11 < GothAlice> ^_^ https://gist.github.com/amcgregor/1b5b885b438da0fd0a1d < character sheet for the D10 session coming up tomorrow.
22:11 < GothAlice> (Gives an image of the character, too.)
22:15 <@rlpowell> What's D10 ?
22:16 < GothAlice> World of Darkness, typically associated with Vampire: The Masquerade and Warewolf tabletop RPG systems.
22:16 <@rlpowell> Ah, OK.
22:16 <@rlpowell> Which game?
22:16 < GothAlice> Initially created and open-sourced by White Wolf Publishing.
22:16  * rlpowell played a buncho f those back in the day.
22:16 < GothAlice> That's the trick: we're beta-testing a new system for superheroes.
22:16 < GothAlice> Apex: The Evolved
22:16 <@rlpowell> Ah, OK.  Cool.
22:16 <@rlpowell> afk ,sorry, kid stuff.
22:16 < GothAlice> https://github.com/apexevolved/site/wiki
22:17 < GothAlice> Heh; no worries.
22:17 < GothAlice> https://github.com/apexevolved/site/wiki/Sailces was my previous character (general bio, not character sheet)
22:19 < GothAlice> https://github.com/apexevolved/site/wiki/People-of-the-Thinking-Plant being the race page
22:21 < GothAlice> {sparser} speak Lojban.  :)
22:21 < GothAlice> *spapre (silly auto-correct)
22:25 < durka42> if that first paragraph is describing Lojban-by-any-other-name, shouldn't it say "…otherwise stress is on the second-to-last syllable", not "at the end of the word"?
22:25 < GothAlice> Ah!  Good catch.  Yes, it should.
22:26 < GothAlice> I was already working on replacing "penultimate stress" (which itself is pretty much non-sensical).
22:27 < GothAlice> Updated.  :)
22:27 < durka42> .i'e
22:28 < GothAlice> https://github.com/apexevolved/site/wiki/Awakening-to-the-Universe < I'm pretty much literally willing to pay for a translation of this, BTW.
22:28 < GothAlice> It's very… metaphorical, though.  Pretty much the last thing on my to-do list because of the complexity I'm fearing.  ;)
22:32 < GothAlice> Actually.  Is there a directory or anything of people willing to be paid as consultants on Lojban?
22:33 < GothAlice> (I ask because this Apex thing is turning into a legitimate commercial venture.)
22:34 < GothAlice> Also because I *know* my own level of experience is inadequate to sufficiently represent the language.
22:35 < GothAlice> … and I want full Lojban translations of the source books we'll be releasing.  ¬_¬
22:36 < durka42> I could probably be convinced to help :p
22:37 < durka42> modulo time constraints of real life, of course
22:37 < GothAlice> Of course.
22:38 < GothAlice> http://f.cl.ly/items/0z2A1j3Q3i1J403G091n/People%20of%20the%20Thinking%20Plant.pdf < is the design sample and rough chapter organization proof for my own book of the two initial.
22:39 < GothAlice> Apex: The Evolved being my co-conspirator's work.  ;)
22:39 < durka42> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.
22:39 < GothAlice> Placeholder text for the ages.
22:40 < GothAlice> It's good to be almost-Latin.
22:40 < durka42> I know :)
22:40 < GothAlice> My own work at recreating this layout using LaTeX has indicated that I might also need to hire a LaTeX person.  :/
22:41 < GothAlice> (That PDF being produced by Apple's Pages.)
22:41 < durka42> I know latex!
22:41 < GothAlice> ¬_¬
22:41 < GothAlice> I love you.
22:41 < GothAlice> http://s.webcore.io/image/0Q100y303e3O
22:41 < durka42> latex is relevant to my being a science grad student
22:41 < durka42> lojban, not so much :)
22:42 < GothAlice> Indeed it would be, to the former.
22:42  * GothAlice <3 LaTeX.
22:42 < GothAlice> It's just bloody difficult to grok.
22:42  * GothAlice knows PostScript better than this…
22:44 < durka42> heh
22:44 < GothAlice> http://s.webcore.io/image/2J0N3Q0u2W22 < at least I've got the columns working the way I want.
22:45 < durka42> TexPad looks nice
22:46 < GothAlice> It's pretty sweet.
22:46 < GothAlice> Still requires the ungodly-huge MacTeX install, though.  Several GB download.
22:46 < GothAlice> And MY GOD it works on iPad.
22:46 < GothAlice> That's just… insanely awesome.
22:47 < GothAlice> (Click in the PDF preview to jump to the definition of that object/text…)
22:49 < GothAlice> Of course, the first thing I ever did in LaTeX was my CV.  ¬_¬  I lost the source for it.  T_T
22:50 < durka42> whoops
22:50 < GothAlice> So sad.
22:50 < durka42> yes I recently read an article about how you shouldn't write your CV in Times New Roman
22:50 < GothAlice> Ha.
22:50 < durka42> and I was thinking "obviously Computer Modern is the right choice, you fools!"
22:50 < GothAlice> But, interestingly, you *should* write university student psychology surveys in Comic Sans.
22:51 < GothAlice> Increases the participation and "truthfulness" by a statistically significant amount.
22:52 < durka42> ue
22:56 < GothAlice> https://vimeo.com/17450666
22:56 < GothAlice> (strong language warning)
22:57 < GothAlice> Study was comparing vs. Times New Roman (ugh) and Helvetica.
22:59 < GothAlice> (http://comicsansproject.tumblr.com < everything is better with Comic Sans. ;)
22:59 < durka42> nooo
23:00 < GothAlice> I even use a Comic Sans-inspired fixed-width font: http://s.webcore.io/image/0Q413C122e0d
23:00 < GothAlice> Both fonts are excellent if you suffer from dyslexia, as I do.
23:00 < GothAlice> (Monofur being the FW version.)
23:08 < durka42> that doesn't seem all that comic sans-y
23:08 < durka42> maybe it's the fixed width
23:08 < GothAlice> It's specifically that each character has a very distinct shape that can't be confused through horizontal mirroring.
23:08 < durka42> je'e
23:26 < GothAlice> https://github.com/apexevolved/site/wiki/Tolcpas < character page up
23:55  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: do se pluka lo nu senva ma       #lojban [http://bit.ly/1ENig4T]
--- Day changed Sun May 03 2015
01:08 < gleki> mensi: doi durka in CLL terminators are in some ways also hardcoded. there is a table of terminators there.
01:08 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.durka.gy. di'a cusku da
01:08 < Ilmen> coi
01:10 < gleki> coi
01:12 < gleki> Trubetskoy's thoughts on ideal conlang phonology:
01:12 < gleki> Simplifying somewhat, the proposed phoneme inventory is as follows:
01:12 < gleki> Vowels: /i(ː) e(ː) a(ː) o(ː) u(ː) ə/
01:12 < gleki> Diphthongs: /iu eu ai au oi ui/
01:12 < gleki> Consonants: /m n ŋ p b t̺ d̺ k ɡ ʔ ɸ β s̪ z̪ x ɣ j w h ɾ-l/
01:12 < gleki> Make of it what you will.
01:12 < zahlman> 'ideal' on what criteria?
01:16 < gleki> https://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1505a&L=conlang&F=&S=&P=19780
01:19 < gleki> so it lacks "r","zh","sh" but has "ng" and "gh".
01:19 < gleki> very strange.
01:22 < gleki> Ilmen: what is the progress with CLL?
01:24 < Ilmen> gleki: There remains about three chapters to be checked
01:24 < Ilmen> pretty small ones, even
01:25 < gleki> Ilmen: so it means that it all will be finished very time soon? and pdf is now easy to read?
01:25 < Ilmen> Chapters 3, 2 and 8, if I'm not mistaken
01:26 < Ilmen> http://alexburka.com/lojban/prince.php
01:26 < Ilmen> I don't know whether the full PDF is up to date, but here are the latest version splitted by chapters
01:28 < gleki> "place holder definition" - will this get automatically removed when fully compiled?
01:28 < Ilmen> I guess so
01:29 < Ilmen> I've never seen any placeholder def, where's this one?
01:29 < gleki> underlining is too bold. e.g. page 15 http://alexburka.com/lojban/cll_2.pdf
01:29 < gleki> page 10 http://alexburka.com/lojban/cll_1.pdf "placeholder definition"
01:29 < Ilmen> All the style is in a CSS spreadsheet
01:30 < Ilmen> It's probably because this word isn't in the dictionary?
01:31 < gleki> yes but should it be?
01:31 < Ilmen> It will certainly either be fixed or replaced with another example
01:32 < Ilmen> I've taken note of your remarks.
01:33 < Ilmen> ki'e
01:38 < gleki> Is bripre the logo of LLG?
01:40 < Ilmen> ŭa nai
01:40 < Ilmen> mi na djuno
01:45 < Zluglu> en:pru
01:45 < mensi> 112 da se tolcri: cfapru, dalgapru, gapru, gutrygapru, lampru, maprultricu, molgapru, narprugastcica, prubi'o, pruce,
01:45 < mensi> prugastcica, prujungau, prula'i, prula'ima'i, prulamcte, prulamdei, prulamjeftu, prulamna'a, pruni, prupu'i, pruri,
01:45 < mensi> pruslemijyji'e, pruspe, pruxi, ranmolgapru, ricrprunu, rutrprunu, tcepru, tceprubakni, tceprujurme, tcepruske, teipru,
01:45 < mensi> tempru, banmu'ave, banpurugu, gugdecuje, konku'u, ku'urpicea, mlenicygau, banpuru'u, bavla'i, bavla'ima'i, bavlamcte,
01:45 < mensi> bavlamdei, bavlamjeftu, bavlamna'a, bavypunji, bavyspe, birkoku, cabdei, cabjeftu, cabycte, censa, cerni, ckabu,
01:45 < mensi> claco'umau, cnita, cuvjurme, detytcikygau, dizlo, djedi, drudi, farna, farvi, fetnalspe, fetspe, flaume, gacri, ga'i,
01:45 < mensi> galcatlu, galmu'u, galraipau, galtu, gapselfa'a, gastcica, grute, incipe, jeftu, ka'urkuarka, lijda, masti, momvelru'e,
01:45 < mensi> mucti, naknalspe, nalspe, nanca, nicte, pacruxtutra, pamniarkovni, pamrkovni, persika, pu'e, purci, ruxse'i, ruxyzau,
01:45 < mensi> samru'e, sepu'e, slabu, smela, tadji, ...
01:45 < Zluglu> argh
02:29 < gleki> uasai la zojbo cu du la latro'a
02:53 < gerku> sa'ei bau
02:55 < gleki> sei xafxafa
02:57  * nuzba @uitki: BPFK Section: gismu Issues - http://t.co/1dcT3yd8EA by 4D enthusiast - /* Ambiguity */ [http://bit.ly/1OQzNzK]
03:01 < gerku> xu do bilma
03:03 < gleki> na
03:03 < gleki> i ki'u ma retsku
03:04 < gerku> uanai
03:05 < zahlman> coi la gerku .i zo'o ko na batci
03:05 < gleki> lo xafxafa cu danlu gi'e ta'e bacru lo simsa be zo xafxaf i va'i lo'e xafxafa cu gerku
03:06 < gerku> coi .i so'eroi mi na batci
03:06 < gleki> so'eroi ku do na batci
03:07 < gerku> u
03:07 < gerku> a
03:07 < zahlman> gerna: so'eroi mi na batci
03:07 < mensi> O_0
03:08 < zahlman> oi
03:08 < gerku> gerna: so'eroi ku mi na batci
03:08 < mensi> O_0
03:09 < gerku> gerna: mi na so'eroi batci
03:09 < mensi> O_0
03:09 < gerku> gerna: mi so'eroi na batci
03:09 < mensi> O_0
03:10 < zahlman> la gerna cu mabla pe'i
03:10 < gerku> ua
03:10 < zahlman> oi
03:10 < zahlman> ni'o do mo
03:16 < demize> la jbofi'e cu bebna
03:17 < demize> Hmm, the jbofi'e on lojban.org porses it though.
03:18 < zahlman> the gerna implementation on mensi seems to be broken though
03:38 < demize> It seems to just pipe the line to jbofi'e though.
03:38 < demize> so hmm
03:44 < cirko_> This is the commit that broke it: https://github.com/lojban/jbofihe/commit/bf4cd5141ca73ea4a78efcbba6e516a3c9f4305e
03:45 < cirko_> trading one bug for another, ue nai
03:49 < demize> i'enai
04:03 < gerku> lujvo: mlatu gerku
04:05 < mensi> latyger[6998], latyge'u[7487], mlatyger[8008], mlatyge'u[8497], latygerku[9037], ...
04:05 < demize> Slow mensi.
04:10 < latygerku> mi gerku lo latygerku
04:11 < demize> Can't say I've ever seen one of those before.
04:11 < zahlman> cmoni ma a'u
04:16 < latygerku> mi gercmo gi'e latcmo
04:22 < gleki> gerna: mi so'eroi na batci
04:23 < mensi> (0[mi CU {<(1so'e roi)1 (1na batci)1> VAU}])0
04:43 < selpahi> mensi: doi GothAlice <GothAlice> Is there a directory or anything of people willing to be paid as consultants on Lojban? -- No, but put me on that list. I'll do anything Lojban-related for money :)
04:43 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.GothAlice.gy. di'a cusku da
04:51 < gleki> u'i
04:58 < gleki> i ma xe fanva zoi gy board of directors gy
04:59 < gleki> glico i'enaisai http://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Board_of_Directors
05:01 < selpahi> mensi: doi GothAlice <GothAlice> I want full Lojban translations of the source books we'll be releasing. -- I just looked at the one you posted. It looks very interesting. How many are there going to be?
05:01 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.GothAlice.gy. di'a cusku da
05:04 <@Broca> e'u zo trukamni
05:04 < selpahi> mo zo fuzraikamni
05:04 < selpahi> .i kamni gi'e gunma lo jitro
05:59 < selpahi> coi la .ilmen.
06:00 < Ilmen> coi la selpa'i
06:00 < selpahi> .i xu pu zdile fa lo nu voksnu ca lo prulamdei
06:00 < Ilmen> go'i
06:00 < selpahi> ui .i'e
06:00 < Ilmen> la guskant jo'u la niftyg jo'u la timon cu kansa
06:02 < selpahi> mi finti pa cnino gredile
06:02 < selpahi> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LH_bawafDZBp5h4shGoajnTU7sttOilfpyxqUD4B5BM/edit#gid=0
06:02 < selpahi> .i so'u ci mupli ca pagbu .i ko banrygau va'o lo nu djica
06:02 < Ilmen> .i'e
06:03 < uuZIT> ma fasnu la'o gy.www.lojban.org.gy. .i ca lo nu mi vitke pe'a ri kei mi klama pe'a la'o gy.mw.lojban.org.gy. .ue
06:03 < Ilmen> ba catlu ba ku .i nau zo'u mi mulno lo ka jundi la nu jansu .i sa'u mi jai lerci
06:03 < selpahi> la .medi'auikis. cu basti la .tikis.
06:03 < Ilmen> .i .ei sutra lanli fa mi
06:03 < selpahi> ua je'e
06:05 < Voltz> coi
06:05 < Voltz> Can some one explain zoi and goi?
06:06 < uuZIT> sure
06:07 < uuZIT> zoi is a particle to quote just ANYTHING
06:07 < uuZIT> the grammar of zoi is a bit unique
06:07 < uuZIT> you can use zoi to quote, i.e. text written in a foreign language
06:08 < uuZIT> the grammar works like this: first you start with zoi, followed by ANY Lojban word, followed by a pause (period) followed by the text you want to quote, followed by another pause, then followed by the same lojban word you used previously
06:09 < uuZIT> in short: “zoi <lojban word>.<YOUR TEXT GOES HERE>.<lojban word>”
06:09 < uuZIT> example: If I want to quote, let's say “Mary eats an apple.” …
06:09 < uuZIT> in Lojban it goes like this:
06:09 < uuZIT> zoi gy.Mary eats an apple..gy.
06:10 < uuZIT> I could also have used “glico” or “kamni” or “coi” or any other lojban word in place of “gy”
06:10 < uuZIT> but the important part is that it does not appear in the text you want to quote
06:11 < uuZIT> Volts, do you understand?
06:11 < uuZIT> I mean Voltz
06:11 < Voltz> Oh woops..
06:12 < Voltz> Yes
06:12 < Voltz> Thanks
06:12 < uuZIT> hey Voltz, try to quote this: “Seventeen”
06:12 < Voltz> zoi gy seventeen gy
06:13 < Voltz> correct?
06:13 < uuZIT> almost, you should keep the quoted text intact, so capital S
06:14 < uuZIT> If you want to quote “gyrations”, that zoi gy does not work
06:14 < uuZIT> just use any other lojban word
06:14 < uuZIT> i.e. zifre
06:14 < uuZIT> zoi zifre.gyrations.zifre
06:15 < uuZIT> Okay, now for goi.
06:15 < uuZIT> Are you still there?
06:16 < uuZIT> Well, whatever, you can always find the answer in The Lojban Reference Grammar. http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll/
06:16 < Rodericus> You forgot the amazing detail that the word used as the quotation marks is often the letter name for the language of the quotation. :)
06:17 < uuZIT> this is only an informal convention
06:17 < uuZIT> so you can't rely on it
06:17 < Rodericus> True but not less interesting. :)
06:23 < _mukti_> I personally favor just doubling {zoi}.
06:24 < _mukti_> zoi zoi hello zoi
06:24 < Ilmen> doi la .ozgu ca lo nau kelka'u do nu'o minde
06:25 < Ilmen> .i .e'e do da zukte
06:26 < Ilmen> .i tolcfa ba zi lo mentu be li so
06:27 < selpahi> Sometimes people use delimiters that comment on the quoted material, .e.g. {zoi bebna ... bebna}.
06:28 < _mukti_> haha, that's wicket
06:28 < _mukti_> (wicked)
06:29 < _mukti_> .i xu la danmo rozgu cu jundi
06:29 < _mukti_> la ozgu
06:30 < Ilmen> sa'u mi ji'a jai lerci lo ka jansu jundi
06:30 < Rodericus>  selpahi: Would it work like (or, when spoken, in combination with) quoting someone using an intonation that makes the quoted person sound ridiculous?
06:30 < Ilmen> .i mi pu tolmo'i lo du'u ba zi tolcfa
06:32 < _mukti_> .i nau nu'o minde
06:33 < Ilmen> ui nai
06:33 < _mukti_> .i mentu li re pi mu
06:33 < Ilmen> .i za'a la .ozgu cu jundi pu za lo cacra be li ji'i pa
06:34 < Ilmen> gi'e ku'i na minde
06:34 < _mukti_> .i mentu li pa
06:35 < Ilmen> snidu li dau
06:36 < Ilmen> se.u li no
06:36 < Ilmen> ue ru'e
06:42 < Ilmen> la .kaliforni'as. ba se kukte za'a
07:16  * nuzba @uitki: Welcome!/en - http://t.co/wdzVIsGDqj by Wuzzy - /* Connect with the community */ la jbotcan co'e [http://bit.ly/1I7MyBY]
07:23 < gleki> _mukti_: xu sarcu fa lonu lo jatna be LLG cu xabju la virgini'as
07:23 < _mukti_> coi la gleki .i pe'i na vajni
07:24 < gleki> i ku'i ma ka'e co'a
07:25 < _mukti_> So I'm going to respond in the list, but briefly...
07:26 < _mukti_> There's only one officer of the LLG who needs be resident in Virginia, the Virginia Registered Agent
07:26 < _mukti_> The other officers need not be residents of Virginia, or even the U.S.
07:26 < _mukti_> mu'a la Broca
07:27 < gleki> xu la broca cu cmima LLG
07:27 < selpahi> Did Bob send a mail to the list?
07:28 < selpahi> ja'a cmima doi y
07:28 < selpahi> gy
07:28 < gleki> da mutce sivni list doi sy
07:28 < gleki> *liste
07:28 < gleki> i u'i do na jai se curmi
07:29 < gleki> i xo'ozo'o mi'a dukse stati
07:29 < selpahi> ua je'e .i mi pu xanka lo nu mi co'u kakne lo ka tcidu lo mriste pe LLG
07:29 < gleki> i to'u la zbabu co'uru'e djica lo ka ca'o jatna
07:29 < selpahi> .i ki'u bo pu za lo djedi be li pa
07:29 < selpahi> da benji fi mi fe zoi gy. You have been unsubscribed from the llg-board mailing list .gy
07:30 < gleki> i ku'i bredi lo ka ca'o jatna ze'a lo nanca be li su'e pa
07:30 < selpahi> .i ku'i ja'o srana lo drata judri pe mi
07:30 < selpahi> ju'i nai
07:30 < _mukti_> selpahi: That's my fault. I unsubscribed everyone from the list who isn't either on the board or an outgoing officer.
07:31 < gleki> i pluka mi fa lonu la zbabu cu troci lo ka fanva la'e lu 1001 nicte li'u
07:31 < selpahi> la paki'o su'i pa nicte
07:32 < gleki> _mukti_: i think all LLG pages should bear a notice of officialness in the wiki. In the old wiki it was also supposed to be that way as far as i can read but it was lost maybe even before tiki.
07:32 < _mukti_> gleki: I think that's a good idea.
07:33 < selpahi> "Fault"? Does that mean non board members are allowed to be on the list?
07:33 < gleki> _mukti_: i dont remember where i read that in the tiki but this is what i drew from it: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/official_versus_unofficial_pages
07:33 < selpahi> I didn't even know I was on the list in the first place
07:36 < gleki> zo'oru'e actually i didnt want llg-members list archives to become open because otherwise the world would know that LLG had done almost nothing productive.
07:37 < _mukti_> gleki: Yes, I remember there was quite a bit of concern when the wiki first launched about distinguishing official from non-official pages
07:39  * nuzba @uitki: official versus unofficial pages - http://t.co/H4oH5iQsag by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1PfPtHO]
07:46 < gleki> how about this: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Board_of_Directors
07:48 < gleki> _mukti_: anyway you may add {{LLG}} to all LLG pages. The template can be fixed independently at http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:LLG
07:56  * nuzba @uitki: AKTUALISIERTE SEITE:  pronunciation - http://t.co/05n1aX953l von Wuzzy - new German link [http://bit.ly/1EOckc6]
07:59 < _mukti_> Regarding the llg-board list, I was surprised to see a few people who weren't on the board on the list. I want to keep pushing the board on transparency, but I think if we have a policy that the board list is private to the board, we should stick to that.
08:00 < gleki> and we need one more mailing list, jbocei. zo'o
08:02  * nuzba @uitki: AKTUALISIERTE SEITE:  pronunciation guide in German - http://t.co/DF5G6P1KTr von Wuzzy - Hinweis auf neue Seite [http://bit.ly/1EOcEYh]
08:06  * nuzba @uitki: AKTUALISIERTE SEITE:  was ist Lojban? - http://t.co/oORmTUh7wR von Wuzzy - Die Seite war ziemlich kaputtformatiert, ich habe hier aufgeräumt [http://bit.ly/1PfRcwM]
08:11 < flaxl> coi
08:14 < gleki> coi
09:21 < selpahi> gleki: ma xagrai lo rusko joi glico vlaste bo kibystu
09:22 < selpahi> .i mi mi bregau lo ka ba za co'a tadni lo ruskybau
09:24 < gleki> selpahi: e'o do noroi retsku fi lo prenu fe zo'ei lo verclibau be ri i sei mi stace mi na djuno i puzulu mi bregau lo sampu vlaste i ku'i sampu i nasai mulno http://eng-rus.tiddlyspot.com/
09:24 < gleki> i ti'e la uikti'onaris cu jai banzu
09:26 < selpahi> .y je'e .i .ai mi retsku fi lo drata
09:30 < selpahi> .i zo'o li'a na vajni ba'e do .i mi na se krali lo ka pilno lo rusko lo ka tavla do
09:30 < gleki> mensi: doi menli|Ilmen if you are ready to help me with the total scan of Tatoeba then here is the link. Waiting for your questions. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Md0pojdcO3EVf3LQPHXFB7uOThNvTWszkWd5T4YhvKs/edit#gid=1078543071
09:30 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.menli|Ilmen.gy. di'a cusku da
09:32 < gleki> selpahi: xu naku do cabna simxu tadni du'e bangu vau zo'oru'e
09:32 < selpahi> du'e na'i zo'o
09:33 < gleki> zo'o ko fanva lo rusko jufra pe la mupli lo lojbo
09:33 < gleki> i ta'o paunai ma prali fi lonu tadni lo rusko
09:36 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 140 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 137 normal]
09:36 < gleki> tugrik: coi
10:49 < b_jonas> i coi ro do xu do se cinri lo nu fi'oi namkei fi'au facki lo du'u so'i da valsi ma kau la pating poi bangu la'e me'o ry. re dy. re fi'o lisri zoi gi. Darths and Droids .gi
10:52 < b_jonas> i mi'a snada gi'e casnu do'e zoi ji. http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=8454 .ji
10:56 < b_jonas> y ki'a pei
11:00 < durka42> Ilmen: bridi can be raised too, though? if {ko'a se nundumu}, then {mi xusra ko'a} and {mi xusra tu'a ko'a} are still different
11:01 < Ilmen> Sure, in this case there's the extra load of analyzing whether ko'a is a proposition or not, which can be bothering I guess
11:02 < Ilmen> Anyway we're not even sure what a proposition is, so it's probably safer to never use implicit raising
11:02 < Ilmen> implicit raising only works if there are clearly cut sumti types, impermeable to each other
11:03 < durka42> which ideally would be true… ;)
11:03 < Ilmen> Unfortunately I don't know if that's true .u'i
11:03 < durka42> certainly gleki is trying
11:04 < durka42> I don't know why "abstraction" was renamed to "clause" though
11:04 < durka42> za'a it causes confusion
11:05 < Ilmen> Some theories claims that for all proposition X, X is the set of every world/state-of-affairs in which the claim is true
11:05 < Ilmen> in that were to be true, then the type difference between bridi and sets would broke apart
11:06 < Ilmen> « Bertrand Russell held that propositions were structured entities with objects and properties as constituents. Wittgenstein held that a proposition is the set of possible worlds/states of affairs in which it is true. One important difference between these views is that on the Russellian account, two propositions that are true in all the same states of affairs can still be differentiated. »
11:06 < Ilmen> « For instance, the proposition that two plus two equals four is distinct on a Russellian account from three plus three equals six. If propositions are sets of possible worlds, however, then all mathematical truths (and all other necessary truths) are the same set (the set of all possible worlds). »
11:07 < Ilmen> .u'i
11:07 < durka42> yeah… that seems like a bad idea :)
11:07 < durka42> then {mi xusra lo jetnu} and {mi xusra lo jitfa} are the only two possible xusra-bridi
11:08 < Ilmen> it would lead the following to be true: {lo du'u li re su'i pa mintu li ci cu du'u li re su'i re mintu li vo}
11:09 < durka42> I would much prefer something like {jetmu'e} to introduce a Wittgensteinian set from a proposition
11:10 < Ilmen> As for object-->event raising, I don't like it much because I'm not sure whether there is a type difference between object and event. A chair could be seen as an event of atoms being arranged chairwise, for example
11:10 < gleki> 11:04 < durka42> I don't know why "abstraction" was renamed to "clause" though <-- "clause" is central in CC. Actually the first chapter starts with explaining what clause/bridi consists of. Adding more terms will complicate things. And no, I dont rely on past terminology. We have Waves for that.
11:10 < durka42> je'e
11:10 < Ilmen> so one couldn't know whether "lo stizu cu lakne" has lakne1 as an object or an event
11:11 < gleki> Ilmen: {nu} isnt event for me. {fasnu} is. I could change djica2 to preposition type but usage says otherwise. So maybe in 15 years something will change.
11:11 < durka42> lb:crisa
11:11 < mensi> crisa = crisa — x1(entity)  is summer of year  x2(entity)  at location  x3(entity)
11:11 < mensi> :lo crisa — summer.
11:11 < mensi> :ca crisa lo re no no mu moi ti — Now it's summer of year 2005 at my place.
11:11 < mensi> :Related words: citsi, critu, dunra, vensa
11:12 < durka42> wait, what? {nu} isn't an event?
11:12 < Ilmen> In the wikipedia page on propsitions, they claim that propositions are the things that satisfies desire/hope/etc predicates
11:12 < durka42> that's the definition of {nu}
11:13 < gleki> who knows. djica2 should probably be proposition but usage ...
11:13 < Ilmen> and yet djica2 is marked as expecting an event in the gimste, how confusing
11:14 < gleki> so since i couldnt solve this contradiction i just dropped nu/du'u distinction making {nu = su'u be fe zi'o} although retaining du'u
11:14 < durka42> what's wrong with it being an event, uanai
11:15 < Ilmen> well, that raise the question of why djuno2 is not an event .u'i
11:15 < Ilmen> *raises
11:15 < durka42> ah, you made {nu} the generic one
11:15 < durka42> stop raising things! zo'o
11:15 < Ilmen> really the du'u/nu distinction is probably not often useful
11:16 < Ilmen> It's useful as long as the distinction "mi nelci lo nu do dansu" vs "mi nelci lo du'u do dansu" is worthful
11:17 < Ilmen> and I don't know whether it is
11:17 < durka42> ma te frica .u'i
11:17 < gleki> what it could mean, ilmen?
11:17 < gleki> ie
11:17 < durka42> is the second one {mi nelci lo nu jetnu fa lo du'u do dansu .iku'i mi se to'e melbi lo tarmi be lo nu do dansu}?
11:18 < Ilmen> if ever "mi nelci lo nu do dansu" == "mi nelci lo du'u do dansu", then the semantic distionction nu/du'u disappears
11:19 < Ilmen> (nelci2 is one of those sumti slots that seem to accept anything as an argument)
11:19 < durka42> I don't understand what it means with {du'u}
11:19 < Ilmen> if somebody want to says that he likes an expression, then "lu" is the way to go, not du'u
11:20 < durka42> so you're saying there is a distinction
11:20 < Ilmen> if somebody want to say that he likes an event/action/etc, nu is the way to go, not du'u
11:20 < Ilmen> so, what is "mi nelci lo du'u do dansu"?
11:20 < Ilmen> I haven't the least idea.
11:21 < durka42> it sounds like we three are in agreement that it doesn't make sense, so nelci2 should be a nu :)
11:21 < Ilmen> durka42: I'm not saying there's a distinction, I'm saying maybe there's one, maybe not
11:21 < Ilmen> mi na djuno sei stace
11:21 < pimlu> can someone give me an example where distinction between nu and du'u is important, and either one can be used with a different meaning?
11:22 < pimlu> besides maybe something easy like NU as the modifier of a tanru
11:22 < Ilmen> pimlu: I can't, but I'd be glad if you could find one :)
11:23 < Ilmen> (sa'e I can't think of an example where replacing nu with du'u leads to an useful meaning change)
11:23 < Ilmen> durka42: "mi nelci lu do dansu" is okay too
11:23 < Ilmen> it's for when you like the phrasing, the sentence "do dansu" itself
11:24 < durka42> that's a different statement, though
11:24 < durka42> ie
11:24 < durka42> simpler question, is there anywhere either {nu} or {du'u} can be used, at all
11:24 < Ilmen> s/phrasing/wording
11:24 < durka42> or is it always one of them that is required
11:24 < Ilmen> nelci2, melbi1 and a few others seem to accept about anything as an argument
11:25 < Ilmen> so it the nu/du'u distinction is not useful with them, then I'd expect it to be never useful
11:25 < durka42> okay, melbi1 seems like a good example
11:25 < Ilmen> s/so it/so if
11:26 < Ilmen> .ai mi di'a citka co'o ru'e .i mi tcidu ca lo nu xruti
11:26 < durka42> mi se melbi ge lo du'u carvi kei ki'u lo nu ca sudga cedra gi nai lo nu carvi kei ki'u lo nu mi co'a nalkufra cilmo
11:27 < durka42> bebna mupli .i ku'i pei
11:28 < durka42> but the same example could easily be made using {nu} both places and tenses like {ta'e} and {nau}…
11:29 < durka42> .ei mi co'e
11:31  * nuzba @uitki: La Bangu: Dictionary with Examples - http://t.co/bttzS0ztWm by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1QcycSa]
11:31  * nuzba @uitki: L17-03 - http://t.co/ik37NWciym by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1QcyBUC]
11:32 < gleki> pimlu: well, according to Wierzbicka in her "Semantics of grammar" abstraction and infinitives go hand in hand  in English and are expressed with "to [do something]" like in "I want to do". However, events/processes use -ing, i.e. gerund. "I hate eating pepper".
11:36 < durka42> .ai la nuzba cu banrygau lo tu'itsku .urli
11:36 < durka42> xu cumki ku'i
11:37 < gleki> ju'o
11:37 < durka42> la .tu'itr. ta'e mipri
11:37 < gleki> i faulonu la nod.modul. na kakne vau  ko pilno la reku'est
11:38 < durka42> .ei cpedu lo stedu be lo .urli
11:39 < durka42> $ curl -I http://t.co/bttzS0ztWm 2>/dev/null| grep location
11:39 < durka42> location: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu:_Dictionary_with_Examples
11:39 < gleki> la'oi curl na pagbu lo nod
11:39 < gleki> sisi
11:39 < gleki> la nod
11:40 < durka42> stedu cpedu mupli po'o
11:40 < durka42> co'o
11:40 < durka42> ku'i ja'a pagbu za'adai: https://www.npmjs.com/package/node-libcurl
11:40 < durka42> .u'i
11:41 < durka42> ro da pagbu la .nod. .i la .nod. cu nunji'e .i la .nod. cu munje
11:45 < gleki> Installing on Windows
11:45 < gleki> What you need to have installed:
11:45 < gleki> Python 2.7
11:45 < gleki> Visual Studio 2010/2012 (Express version works!)
11:45 < gleki> Just that, really.
11:45 < gleki> uanai
12:28 < gleki> durka42: btw it's quite easy to mass upload sentences to Tatoeba. I can prepare a list of high-quality English sentences, in the form of a google spreadsheet, then you translate those that you like and use either my node.js script or your own adaptation to upload them. this method wont require you to click any pages. just one google spreadsheet. pei
12:29  * gleki de'a jundi
12:32 < durka42> sure why not
13:38  * nuzba @jhamby: Hey everyone! Since I tweet about languages & machine translation, here's a topic: what synthetic language is better: #Esperanto or #Lojban? [http://bit.ly/1KFcUcF]
13:44  * nuzba @jhamby: … advantage an existing neocolonial power like English does today. Either way, #Lojban is where it's at, imnsho. 👍 http://t.co/HGxgj97Piw [http://bit.ly/1KFdqY8]
13:48  * nuzba @jhamby: Besides being the most popular & well-known language designed by language nerds for conveying info, written #Lojban looks like #Klingon. 👍 [http://bit.ly/1EP8izY]
13:55  * nuzba @jhamby: …it would have to be Lojban and not Klingon or Esperanto or whatever. Death metal growls. 😄 [http://bit.ly/1KFebAJ]
13:59 < ozgu> Broca: #ckule
13:59 < ozgu> xalbo: #ckule
13:59 < ozgu> rlpowell: #ckule
14:00 < cirko> tsani:
14:01 < ozgu> b_jonas: oh, thanks
14:02 < selpahi> The thing with #ckule is that a lot of random people come there all the time not knowing it has anything to do with Lojban.
14:02 < ozgu> ua nai ma krinu
14:03 <@Broca> How does that work? Is #ckule a word in some other language?
14:03 < selpahi> It has to have something in its name
14:03 < b_jonas> selpahi: I have no problem if it's localized to that channel
14:03 < b_jonas> but I don't think it ever is
14:03 < selpahi> ANyway, will someone kick or ban those spammers?
14:03 < b_jonas> it's better to kline them befor they go to another cahnnels
14:03 < Adlai> spammers will spam any popular freenode channel that isn't +v
14:04 < selpahi> Is #lojban +v ?
14:04 < selpahi> Because we pretty much never (like super rarely) get spammers
14:04 < ozgu> anyone checked the youtube link yet? .a'u ru'e
14:04 < b_jonas> selpahi: that question doesn't make sense
14:05 < selpahi> Yes, it's a parody "David Guetta ft. Nicki Minaj - Turn Me On Parody - Bang Your Mom "
14:05 < durka42> whoa
14:05 < durka42> only xalbo is a mod there :/
14:06 < b_jonas> durka42: no, there's like six others
14:06 < durka42> I mean right now
14:06 < selpahi> .u'i doi la .ilmen.
14:06 < Ilmen> ma fenki fasnu bu'u la ckule
14:07 < ozgu> do ma cusku
14:07 < ozgu> doi .i'y
14:07 < b_jonas> Ilmen: just some spammers. ignore them please.
14:07 < selpahi> lo nu do cliva cu rinka lo nu na viska :P
14:07 < ozgu> ŭi nai
14:07 < ozgu> .u'a nai
14:07 < selpahi> Anywho, I wouldn't mind getting mod...
14:08 < tsani> I second giving selpahi ops in #lojban and #ckule
14:08 < cirko> ozgu: sa'u zo'oi :q se ba'i zo'oi /q
14:08 < Ilmen> Spammers > http://media.giphy.com/media/BeylijiyiKQbm/giphy.gif
14:08 < ozgu> ki'e .crk.
14:08 < selpahi> .ei zo .krk. cmene
14:09 < selpahi> .i tce'exo gi'e se muni lo ka cnebo
14:09 < selpahi> smuni*
14:09 < ozgu> je'e .semunin.
14:09 < selpahi> melbi valsi
14:09 < selpahi> .i ku'i simsa lu sa'ei .pudin. li'u .u'i
14:09 < ozgu> lo'u muni le'u ie
14:10 < selpahi> mi'e la .semunin.
14:10 < ozgu> xu zo .pudin. da se smuni
14:10 < selpahi> .i .ei la .ral. co'a se cmene zo .semunin.
14:10 < ozgu> ie ei
14:10 < selpahi> .u'i
14:10 < ozgu> .u'e
14:10 < selpahi> ^glu
14:11 < crw\fn-pu-din> mi'e gluta
14:11 < selpahi> mi'e glumanda
14:11 < ozgu> xu zo'oi fn ja'a valsi fi lo gaspo
14:12 < ozgu> .i mi na ka'e krici
14:12 < selpahi> ja'a
14:12 < ozgu> .u'i
14:12 < selpahi> gua:fn
14:12 < selpahi> xu na pagbu la mensi
14:12 < selpahi> .i ia ja'a go'i
14:12 < crw\fn-pu-din> dunli ru'e zo me'oi
14:12 < ozgu> mi tolmo'i le ka lo gaspu cu fegli
14:12 < crw\fn-pu-din> gusapi: fn
14:12 < selpahi> .u'i
14:12 < selpahi> guaspi: fn
14:12 < mensi> fn = Event (vo) X1+ is represented by metaphor X2? |>>> X2 is a sequence of foreign syllables to end of compounding tone.
14:12 < crw\fn-pu-din> lelele
14:12 < mensi>   -fn with X2 make a subordinate clause.
14:13 < selpahi> la vreji na na .irci
14:13 < crw\fn-pu-din> mi na se vajni
14:13 < ozgu> se vajni -> javni
14:13 < selpahi> do gleua li no'o
14:13 < ozgu> oO
14:14 < ozgu> xu do'o voksnu ca lo prula'i
14:14 < ozgu> ta'o dai
14:14 < ozgu> si
14:15 < crw\fn-pu-din> mi na co'e
14:15 < selpahi> ga'a do ma tordu gi'e xamgu da'i basti zo nilzendu'i noi cnino je noi clanydu'e
14:15 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i xu lo me'oi .ibu ja'a ku
14:16 < ozgu> zo nilzedu la'a
14:16 < ozgu> ja zo nimzedu ga'a
14:16 < selpahi> zo zendu zo'u gimtai .oi
14:16 < selpahi> .i je zo .endu zo'u zo .endo simsa
14:17 < crw\fn-pu-din> ku'i xu nai lo sizyco'e cu .inda lo ka se valsi
14:17 < crw\fn-pu-din> si gismu
14:17 < selpahi> xu do zanru lo si'o .inda lo ka se gismu
14:17 < ozgu> xu lo me'oi ZKZZKZK cu raktu do
14:17 < selpahi> na raktu .i ku'i clani
14:18 < crw\fn-pu-din> na birti
14:18 < ozgu> ma te smujdi ku'i .a'u
14:18 < selpahi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/nilzendu%27i
14:19 < ozgu> ba'a zo .endo ka'e banli lo so'o drata
14:19 < selpahi> zo .endo plixau ba'a .i .ai na vimcu
14:19 < ozgu> srana lo si'o  sefsi
14:19 < selpahi> .y xu do sanji lo nu zo .endo pagbu la jbovlaste
14:20 < ozgu> na g'oi
14:20 < ozgu> bu'o
14:20 < selpahi> jbo:endo
14:20 < mensi> endo = x1 ckini lo nenri be x2 boi x3
14:20 < selpahi> jbo:ekso
14:20 < mensi> ekso = x1 ckini lo bartu be x2 boi x3
14:20 < crw\fn-pu-din> lo pinka be fi la .uuzit. cu mo
14:20 < ozgu> cinri doi .slp.
14:20 < selpahi> mi nu'o bredi lo ka spuda
14:21 < crw\fn-pu-din> sa'e zo zendu pagbu lo pinka je nai lo smuvelski
14:21 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i ua nai
14:21 < ozgu> mi pu pensi zo'oi endomorphism
14:21 < uuZIT> .ue ma se pinka
14:21 < selpahi> xu tu'a la .uuzit. do se uanmonai
14:21 < crw\fn-pu-din> go'i
14:22 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i pinka zo nilzendu'i do'e la jbovlaste
14:22 < selpahi> .i zoi gy. endomorphism .gy zo'u ka'e pilno zo .endo lo ka vlafi'i
14:22 < selpahi> jbo:eksyplini
14:22 < mensi> eksyplini = x1 plini na'e bo lo se plini be la terdi
14:22 < selpahi> mu'a
14:22 < Ilmen> za'a la .tengos. cu pa'atra lo spamboto
14:22 < uuZIT> zo uanmonai se smuni ma
14:22 < Ilmen> sa'e la tangos
14:23 < ozgu> .i zo nilzendu'i zo'u .i'enmo sai
14:23 < demize> Broca: ping
14:23 < selpahi> culnygau lo kevna
14:24 < Ilmen> ku'i do pu pilno zo dubze'a ua nai
14:24 < ozgu> ki'e cluzu'e
14:24 < Ilmen> .i pu zu ku mi pilno zo dubze'a .i ku'i ca nau jinvi lo du'u nonselsmu
14:24 < ozgu> doi .olmen
14:25 < Ilmen> re'i
14:25 < ozgu> .i xu do morji lo du'u ma'a djica tu'a zo nilzendu'i ze'a lo nu fanva lo brife ku jo'u lo solri
14:25 < selpahi> zenba lo kamdu'o
14:25 < crw\fn-pu-din> sanji lo nabmi .i xu da je'a danfu gi'e ca zasti
14:25 < Ilmen> mi morji lo nu pilno zo tankomo ju'o cu'i
14:25 < selpahi> lo nabmi noi mo
14:26 < ozgu> cu'i bu'o
14:26 < Ilmen> lu li pa zenba lo ka ce'u ce'u mintu cu nonselsmu pe'i
14:26 < crw\fn-pu-din> pilno lo se krati va'o lo nu .ei co'e lo krati
14:26 < Ilmen> li pa me no drata be li pa
14:26 < ozgu> ku'i zo nilzendu'i cu si'au balmau
14:26 < uuZIT> .uinai lo tavla cu pilno lo so'i valsi poi mi na jimpe fi ke'a
14:27 < ozgu> ko'oi klamburi zo tavla pe lo jbobo zo tavla pe lo sfe'ero pe'u
14:27 < Ilmen> doi la .ŭuzít. i za'a tavla lo cnino valsi .i ku'i .e'u reisku va'o lo nu na jimpe da
14:27 < crw\fn-pu-din> uuZIT: mi ca'o mitysisku lo srana be lo cnima'o zi'evla poi mriste selmri
14:27 < Ilmen> .i ta'o mi gleki lo nu do .irci vitke
14:27 < uuZIT> valsi klamburi
14:27 < crw\fn-pu-din> vlaste: klamburi
14:27 < vlaste> klamburi = x1 is a pun on x2 and x3 (meanings of a word or similar words)
14:28 < uuZIT> .u'i
14:28 < valsi> klamburi = x1 is a pun on x2 and x3 (meanings of a word or similar words)
14:28 < Ilmen> ua la valsi cu masno
14:28 < ozgu> .u'i coi masno
14:28 < uuZIT> .oi la valsi cu lazni
14:28 < ozgu> coi .ŭuzit. do'u ta'o
14:28 < ozgu> go'oi gleki ra'o
14:29 < Ilmen> doi la .ŭuzít. i xu do sanji lo nu ca ro jefyfa'o cu dikni ke jbobau vokta'a
14:29 < Ilmen> fa mi'a
14:29 < uuZIT> mi tatpi .u'i .i co'o ro da
14:29 < Ilmen> co'o do .i .a'o surla senva
14:29 < crw\fn-pu-din> xu la valsi ku ji'a xabju la vrici
14:30 < ozgu> co'o .olmen .i ko banfi senva
14:30 < selpahi> si'au
14:30 < crw\fn-pu-din> co'o
14:30 < selpahi> la .uuzit. je nai la .ilmen. cu cliva
14:30 < ozgu> je'e
14:30 < ozgu> .u'u
14:30 < selpahi> je'e glauka zo'o
14:30 < Ilmen> la'a mi ba mi'unzu'e
14:30 < ozgu> ko banli cikna doi .olmen.
14:30 < crw\fn-pu-din> y banydvagone co'e fa mi si'a
14:30 < ozgu> zo mi'ubzu le'ai dai
14:31 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i doi la glauka mi se xajmi lo du'u lu .i bu li'u zo'oi hibou sance dunli gi'e nai se cmene dunli
14:31 < ozgu> .i la cirko mi ctuca lo du'u zo .u'u valsi lo glauka lo dotybau .i .u'a
14:32 < selpahi> barda .ugla
14:33 < selpahi> lo .u'ucpi cu klesi lo barda .ugla
14:33 < selpahi> #uat
14:34 < Ilmen> ti'e la guskant cu .aidji lo ka banzulu cilre
14:34 < selpahi> nandu ia ki'u lo nu so'u da xamgu velcli
14:34 < Ilmen> .i ca lo prulamdei nu voksnu zo'u ze'i casnu lo banzulu
14:35 < Ilmen> gi'e lo banzulu selsa'a
14:35 < ozgu> ŭa
14:35 < ozgu> ŭe
14:35 < selpahi> fi'o zgike zo gi'e
14:35 < crw\fn-pu-din> #cninomezogihe
14:35 < ozgu> .u'i
14:35 < ozgu> ba'a lo re do ja'a pa mei
14:35 < crw\fn-pu-din> cipra: mo gi'e lo banzulu selsa'a
14:35 < cipra> ([CU {mo VAU}] [gi'e {CU <(¹lo [banzulu selsa'a] KU¹) CU> COhE VAU} VAU])
14:36 < selpahi> cipra: mi zi'e do
14:36 < cipra> SyntaxError: Expected [,], [gG], [mM], [nN], [rR] or [vV] but "d" found.
14:36 < ozgu> ci pradai
14:36 < crw\fn-pu-din> ku'i do'e lo ca se gunka be mi zo zi'e ja'a dunli zo je
14:36 < selpahi> camxes: +exp mi zi'e do
14:36 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [yY] but "o" found.
14:37 < selpahi> .o'o bu'o nai
14:37 < selpahi> .u'i
14:38 < selpahi> su'a sai ro bangu cu jai frili .i ku'i lo bangu poi mo'a da velcli cu na'o jai nandu
14:38 < crw\fn-pu-din> mensi: doi uuzit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bpfk-list/p-QSI9yMTj8/6miaQphXLT0J
14:38 < mensi> crw\fn-pu-din: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.uuzit.gy. di'a cusku da
14:38 < CyanoIntrant> aoeu: I spy another dvorak user
14:38 < Ilmen> la .guskant. pu brireisku fi mi fe lo simsa be lo ka jei mi se cinri lo banzulu .i na birti lo du'u ki'u ma kau brireisku .i ca da mi se cinri lo banzulu .i ki'u bo tirna lo melbi banzulu selsa'a .i ku'i la'a no'e plixau fa lo nu condi pe'a cilre .i naku so'i so'i da se bangu
14:39 < Ilmen> .i ti'e gy cilre ki'u lo nu fanva be da djica ba'a nai ru'e
14:39 < Ilmen> .i ie lo so'i bangu cu cinrytcemlu gi'e ku'i jai se kanpe fai lo ka so'u da velcli
14:41 < selpahi> ji'a so'e bangu cu melbi ja jai melbi .i ku'i na ka'e certu lo ro mei
14:42 < selpahi> .i sarcu fa lo nu cuxna
14:42 < selpahi> lo me'i ro mei
14:42 < selpahi> .i su'o prenu cu jdice mu'i tu'a lo si'o plixau .i su'o prenu cu go'i mu'a tu'a lo si'o melbi sa'u
14:43 < ozgu> .i so'a prenu na ku zukte co bancli
14:43 < Ilmen> ka'e caxno cilre tu'a lo bangu .i na'e barda nu zivle .i ku'i lo nu djica lo ka ca'a se bangu gi'e certu zo'u .ei condi pe'a clizu'e soi barda nu zivle .i na ka'e cu'uxna ro da fo lo ka co'e
14:45  * nuzba @jhamby: OK xkcd, you make a very good point, which is why I specifically said learning Lojban would be better than learning *Klingon*. @richardselby [http://bit.ly/1EPdUdB]
14:45  * nuzba @jhamby: Seriously, @qu1j0t3. The reason I bring up #Lojban is that it at least has the advantage of being designed like a computer language. 👍 [http://bit.ly/1GJ6EwO]
14:45  * nuzba @rapn21: @jhamby Depnds on what you're looking for, Esperanto is far easier to learn, while Lojban is more logical and precise [http://bit.ly/1EPfsnO]
14:46 < ozgu> .i mi =/nmo
14:46 < selpahi> .au ca di mi mo'u finti lo tadji poi lo prenu ta'i ke'a cu bancertu ca lo nu ba'o tadni ze'a lo jeftu be li ji'i pa
14:46 < ozgu> mi'e sipybzu .i co'o
14:46 < Ilmen> .i mi cu'uxna lo dotybau ki'u lo nu plixau kanpe
14:46 < Ilmen> co'o la .ozgu
14:46 < selpahi> je'e di'ai la .ozgu
14:46 < Ilmen> .i mi milxe co sedycro .i .ai mi simsa zukte
14:47 < ozgu> ko co'u se sedycro
14:47 < ozgu> co'o
14:47 < selpahi> ko'oi ko'oi .a'o
14:47 < crw\fn-pu-din> co'o lo re mei
14:47 < selpahi> co'o
14:47 < selpahi> co'o re mei mi'e zvasta
14:47 < Ilmen> di'ai baucli tadji finti
14:48 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i la djambi cu ba'a co'u jinvi lo me ri moi .i rinka fa mu'a tu'a zo dubze'a
14:48 < crw\fn-pu-din> (to ladjambi toi)
14:48 < Ilmen> to za'a ze'a lo jeftu be li za'u la selckiku cu smaji .i .a'o na mabla lifri toi
14:48 < selpahi> .a'o
14:48 < crw\fn-pu-din> .a'o
14:48 < selpahi> .u'u ma me la jambi
14:49 < Ilmen> ladru jambi .u'e
14:49 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i su'o roi ze'i tavla .i ja'o na morsi do'a nai
14:49 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i la jambi cu pu zi tu'itsku
14:49 < Ilmen> xu su'o do ba'o tinju'i lo cnino me la jemnai moi
14:49 < selpahi> je'e
14:49 < Ilmen> .i ti'e la dabmo cu ba'o co'e
14:50 < Ilmen> *danmo
14:50 < selpahi> ti'e nai .i ia nu'o gubni
14:50 < selpahi> (to lu ti'e nai li'u naldra toi)
14:50 < Ilmen> je'e .i la'a mi na'e drani jimpe
14:50 < crw\fn-pu-din> ni'o mi si'a ckakla co'o
14:50 < Ilmen> co'o
14:51 < selpahi> ko se kukte lo cakla doi ri si'a
14:51 < Ilmen> Ich gehe zu Bett.
14:51 < selpahi> Gute Nacht.
14:51 < crw\fn-pu-din> lo cakla cu voi no roi ba jgari mi
14:51 < selpahi> .i'o
14:51 < Ilmen> ui nai dai
14:52 < Ilmen> co'o
14:52 < selpahi> co'o
15:10 < Taun> coi ru'e
16:56  * nuzba @MatthewSkiver: @PhotonicDog praise lojban! [http://bit.ly/1F08mz1]
17:06 < pimlu> has anyone here actually used mekso a significant amount?
17:40 < durka42> curtis, possibly
17:40 < durka42> he doesn't .irci, though
19:24  * nuzba @willingtheweird: @_Vanessa_sary_ Es Lojban [http://bit.ly/1PgLLh7]
19:34  * nuzba @durkavore: remai #cipra http://t.co/VHuRPAHWZw [http://bit.ly/1PgN1Rn]
19:35 < durka42> whoops
19:37  * nuzba @_Vanessa_sary_: @willingtheweird "Lojban is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human language based on predicate logic."         That's kinda cool. [http://bit.ly/1dGIz2z]
19:37 < durka42> ui
19:55 < durka42> .ai mi ctuca la vlaste lo du lo tu'itsku judrysni cu mifra fi mokau .iku'i .ei galfi piso'e lo samselpla lo pilno be lo nupre .i .ai .ainai .u'i
22:43 < gleki> uuZIT actually broke the structure of the main page
22:47 < durka42> how?
22:50 < gleki> each section had the same structrue with  a link like "More ..." in the end.
22:50 < gleki> now it's a mess.
22:51 < durka42> uanai
22:51 < durka42> lojban.org?
22:51 < durka42> it doesn't show any edits except you...
22:53 < gleki> mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!/en
22:53 < durka42> oh that main page :)
23:05  * nuzba @uitki: Presenting Lojban - http://t.co/mbeIXNDiVF by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1QdP8HZ]
23:12 <@rlpowell> gleki: You need a backup restored or anything?
23:13 < gleki> rlpowell: no. why?
23:15  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban IRC - http://t.co/4EoqzS07Os by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1zrnNxu]
23:16 <@rlpowell> gleki: You said it got messed up; was just checking.
23:17 < gleki> rlpowell: MediaWiki has page history
23:17 < gleki> saved
23:17 <@rlpowell> I know.
23:17 < gleki> with diffs
23:17 < gleki> , blackjack ...
23:45 < b_jonas> coi rlpowell
23:51 <@rlpowell> b_jonas: Hi
--- Day changed Mon May 04 2015
01:09  * nuzba @uitki: LLG Bylaws (2007) - http://t.co/lDBiuchV8T by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1KGiRGs]
01:37  * nuzba @uitki: email copies appreciated, since I read the digest - http://t.co/OTKm06NA3F by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1KGls34]
05:04 < demize> Hmm, lojban.org seems down.
05:17 < Ilmen> ŭe nai
05:23 < demize> .ie
05:31 < gleki_> en:coi
05:31 < mensi> coi = [COI] vocative: greetings/hello.
05:32 < gleki_> heh
05:33 < _mukti_> coi la gleki
05:33 < gleki_> _mukti_: coi i la kobystuzi ca na akti
05:33 < gleki_> sa
05:33 < gleki_> i lo kibystuzi
05:33 < gleki_> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/mw.lojban.org
05:34 < gleki_> i xu do kakne lo ka sidju ma'a
05:34 < _mukti_> ui nai
05:34 < gerku> sa'ei bau
05:34 < _mukti_> .i mi troci lo nu jorne
05:34 < _mukti_> .i ku'i za'a na frati
05:35 < _mukti_> .i si'au mi na sidju kakne
05:35 < gleki_> cizra falo nu la mensi ca'o spuda i ku'i masno i ji'a mi na ka'e zgana lo mi me'oi session
05:36 < gleki_> i ta'onai mi mo'u benji SMS la robin
05:36 < _mukti_> la jukni se nabmi
05:37 < gleki_> cu
05:37 < _mukti_> su .i la jukni cu se nabmi
05:37 < _mukti_> .i la vrici cu frati
05:37 < _mukti_> .i ai mi cliva
05:37 < gleki_> co'o
05:37 < _mukti_> ko se zanfu'a
05:38 < gleki_> ra'o go'i
07:15 < crw\fn-pu-din> ei pei di'e te gerna
07:15 < crw\fn-pu-din> off: pa roi gi pa gi pa
07:15 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [yY] but "a" found.
07:15 < crw\fn-pu-din> exp: pa roi gi pa gi pa
07:15 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [yY] but "a" found.
07:16 < durka42> coi
07:16 < crw\fn-pu-din> coi
07:16 < durka42> xu do selcme lo drata
07:16 < gleki_> mi na kakne tu'a la vrici i ku'i za'a la mensi cu nenri
07:16 < crw\fn-pu-din> go'oi selcme
07:17 < crw\fn-pu-din> gerna: pa roi gi pa gi pa
07:17 < durka42> camxes: pa roi gi da gi de
07:17 < camxes> ([{<pa roi> gi} da gi de] VAU)
07:17 < mensi> O_0
07:17 < crw\fn-pu-din> gerna: li pa roi gi pa gi pa
07:17 < mensi> O_0
07:17 < gleki_> i la robin ca sipna fa ne ka'ai lo selfu skami pe vo'a
07:17 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i skudji lo se pagbu be zo li
07:18 < crw\fn-pu-din> xu cumki fa lo nu la mensi ka'e jai jai ta'i nerkla
07:18 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i la ma'antufa ka'e greke'a co'e
07:18 < crw\fn-pu-din> vau ru'a
07:18 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i ku'i je'u la'a na tai vajni
07:19 < durka42> camxes: libaigipagire
07:19 < camxes> ([li {<bai gi> <pa BOI> gi <re BOI>} LOhO] VAU)
07:19 < durka42> ua
07:20 < durka42> lo'u pa roi gi le'u ci'izra jecu se smuni ma
07:20 < crw\fn-pu-din> la'a va'o lo mekso cu nonselsmu
07:20 < durka42> va'o lo drata ji'a xu
07:21 < gleki_> crw\fn-pu-din: lo greke'a zo'u i'enai i ei ga'orgau i ku'i mi tolcre
07:21 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i je ro da lazni
07:22 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i ka'e ku lu pa roi gi broda gi brode li'u lu pa roi lo nu broda cu brode li'u co'e
07:22 < durka42> ua cumki je'e
07:23 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i mukti tu'a lo preti fa tu'a di'e
07:23 < crw\fn-pu-din> exp: pa ja re mai
07:23 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected ['h] but "i" found.
07:23 < crw\fn-pu-din> y
07:23 < crw\fn-pu-din> ju'i nai
07:24 < zahlman> coi la y sa coi cy zo'o
07:24 < crw\fn-pu-din> coi zanmla
07:25 < Ilmen> coi la namcu prenu
07:26 < crw\fn-pu-din> no'i mukti fa tu'a ba'e di'e
07:26 < crw\fn-pu-din> exp: mo'e ti mai
07:26 < crw\fn-pu-din> exp: mo'e ti roi
07:26 < zahlman> ueru'e do slabu pe'a be lo se irci
07:26 < zahlman> la selpa'i xu
07:26 < crw\fn-pu-din> la'a nai
07:27 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i ma'asno fa la vrici
07:29 < zahlman> cmana masno uanai
07:30 < crw\fn-pu-din> masno tai lo mu'a nu lo cmana cu masno lo ka muvdu
07:30 < zahlman> ua u'i
07:30 < zahlman> zo'o zo snotce no'e melbi...
07:31 < gleki_> xm lo uitki cu masno akti
07:31 < zahlman> oi
07:36 < crw\fn-pu-din> xu su'o roi ku lo simsa be zo mai ja zo xi cu jai citka lo .gek. stura
08:05 < pilno> coi
08:12 < Ilmen> coi
08:18 < pilno> how is the lojban life?
08:41 < v4hn> se solgu'i
08:42 < v4hn> at least over here :)
08:43 < durka42> smaji bu'u
08:43 < durka42> ku'i lo kibjasyselkei cu balbanli
08:44 < crw\fn-pu-din> cu'u lo jinga
08:45 < durka42> mi nn bi'ai jinga
08:45 < durka42> na*
08:46 < durka42> li'a mi na me la xorxes vau .u'i
08:46 < crw\fn-pu-din> ju'o
08:47 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i mi ku'i zo'u co'a ba'o co'a morsi
08:47 < durka42> do me la .danr. xu
08:47 < crw\fn-pu-din> na .i mi risna se ju me la risna
08:50 < durka42> ua
08:51 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i lo nu mi di'a jmive cu se sarcu lo nu ro lo ci mei poi sruri mi cu srera .i to'e sai lakne
08:51 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i .ei se zdile lo ka zgana po'o
08:51 < durka42> ju'o mi na platu lo nu gunta do
08:52 < crw\fn-pu-din> lo nu do cu da'i ka'e gunta cu ba'a balvi lo nu mi co'u zasti
08:53 < durka42> je'u .u'i
08:58 < crw\fn-pu-din> exp: pa sei broda se'u ge pa gi re mai mai
08:58 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected ['h] but "i" found.
09:00 < durka42> do troci ma poi ci'i'i'izra
09:01 < durka42> .ei pilno lo sivni velcu'u
09:01 < durka42> pe'u
09:01 < crw\fn-pu-din> ra'u go'i .i pu zi srera
09:02 < crw\fn-pu-din> .i troci lo ka facki lo du'u ri'a ma kau lo me'oi mex_2 poi pagbu lo me'oi xi_clause ja lo me'oi free_mai na citka lo .gek.
09:04 < durka42> je'e
10:11 < gleki_> en:coi
10:11 < mensi> coi = [COI] vocative: greetings/hello.
10:11 < gleki_> heh
10:11 < gleki_> la mensi is like a star. watch it but never touch it.
11:25 < gleki> so shall we move Level0 booklet to github so that I try to update it?
11:26 < gleki> durka42: can you do the same as you did with CLL, i.e. autogenerating pdf but for Level0? http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/
11:33 < durka42> la'a
11:33 < durka42> mi na pu sanji la'oi Level0
11:35 < gleki> mi ji'a i CGM puzi cusku fi mi
11:41 < durka42> gleki: xu da gidva fi lo nu zbasu
11:42 < snanu> coi ro do
11:42 < snanu> lojban.org is down for me. http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban
11:43 < snanu> interesting. Must be a server issue since the same domain loads other pages such as sutsis
11:44 < snanu> Looks like it's just the wiki that's down
11:49 < snanu> I wonder if gleki has a watchdog service to alert him that the wikis are down
11:50 < snanu> en: ru'a
11:50 < mensi> ru'a = [UI2] evidential: I postulate. |>>> See also sruma. |>>> officialdata
11:54 < snanu> rafsi: sanji
11:54 < mensi> zo'oi saj .e zo'oi sanj rafsi zo sanji
11:54 < snanu> en: sajgau
11:54 < mensi> sajgau [< sanji gasnu ≈ Conscious do] = x1=g1 alerts x2=s1 to x3=s2; x3 is brought to the attention of/is recognized/
11:54 < mensi> realized by x2 by/with the help of/due to agent x1 |>>> krtisfranks
11:56 < snanu> .i ru'a la gleki cu pilno lo sajgau samtci
12:07 < gleki> durka42: http://www.lojban.org/publications/level0/ lo dizlo na gidva vau xu
12:08 < gleki> snanu: it should be robin
12:09 < gleki> snanu: next time you watch it go to #jbopre and tell "rlpowell" (or "@rlpowell") about that
12:09 < durka42> ua lo dizlo cu gidva .i mi narviska'e
12:12 < durka42> gleki: I guess I should import the source files in that folder to a github repo?
12:12 < durka42> or is there one already
12:13 < gleki> durka42: im not aware. betterto cretae a new repo under github.com/lojban
12:14 < durka42> vi'o
12:14 < gleki> snanu: wiki s up but today are upgrades so nothing is guaranteed
12:14 < snanu> coi la gleki
12:14 < snanu> .uasai je'e ki'e do
12:15 < gleki> u'u mi ca clivai  faulo mabla ko retsku fi la robin
12:15 < snanu> en: clivai
12:15 < mensi> [< cilre vajni ≈ Learn important] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
12:15 < mensi> clivai[5847], clivaj[5878], clivajni[7917], cilryvai[7997], cilryvaj[8028], ...
12:15 < durka42> Ilmen: ko zbasu lo pa jenmi
12:20 < snanu> mi na pu sanji tu'a lo xagmau
13:30 < Ilmen> coi
13:36 < durka42> coi la flocrida
13:47 < brumfvck> "It was Pushpa Das, a landslide on to swirl all around May and USGS Could be 492 fires are due to the drought down central Kathmandu, as well as the past week, the worst earthquake hit on the Lamont Doherty Earthquakes in centuries-old then the base camp at an explosive rate.
13:47 < brumfvck> And closely populated explosive 7.8-magnifies in the quakes in central Kathmandu, just next 30 year, the fires are encouraged to put a drought in California has fed in the state has for Saturday night at Tudikhel, a rugged area.
13:47 < brumfvck> We don't know what tectonic forces for California Earthquake during guide, Ang Tshering of the Southwest, there's zero moisture multi-fault lines, the new earthquake, and air, leaving ... I am waiting large
13:47 < brumfvck> At least 1,130 people. Many came cracks opened up in California are encouraged by landslide on Mount Everest after a massive rate.
13:47 < brumfvck> Another example of Kathmandu, just next three days later, there's been almost wildland Fire Protection especially trekking temperatures rise, the San Diego Union-Tribune.
13:47 < brumfvck> "We saw about 60,000 meters can even get explosive first quakes in ruins.
13:47 < brumfvck> "Our tactics remain hours following the Southwest, the soil and thunderstand that the house while most of water a massive speed because the rain on tourism, principally rupture, producing a quake Authority.
13:47 < brumfvck> It's important to how recent study's authors say the houses could be 492 fire risk of wildland Fire Protection gave us an increase in the vegetation is so dry conditions have to swirl all around.
13:47 < brumfvck> The temperatures.
13:47 < brumfvck> Resident officials said when the soil and in the risk to a drought-cause the absence of fires have become a year we saw about 60,000 acres burning the spring," he says. "But because their nation is still get explosive 7.8-magnitude Whittier Narrows earthquakes in the opened up with his Facebook page that altitude earthquake in northern California Earthquake to strike the face of the finding
13:48 < brumfvck> the temblor shook the U.S. Geological Survey and the new conditions fit into a better underous skies becauses inevitable.
13:48 < brumfvck> "Before we're trying the problem, it only magnitude Whittier Narrows earthquake during recognized it hasn't changed fire gets large crashing for overwhelmed," he says. "It's not just not immediately, though we are confined to swirl all that injuries, mostly from the state seem to have to do.
13:48 < brumfvck> We are encouraged to plan prior to tell us how warming combustible multiple fault system, making," said.
13:48 < brumfvck> The ground flammability goes up. In past decade, said Vim Tamang, a rugged area of collapsed ice and the problem, Berlant says.
13:48 < brumfvck> It's also the village has been seeing later, a fires. During a broader range of how warming combustible for California even in the drought has been relation gave us an increased years ago with dozens of representina
13:48 < brumfvck> A graphic from falling brush conditionship between developing of them was recognized it has fed into a long time when the including is likely put up homes and two in Bangladesh. Two Chinese citizens of the main camps.
13:48 < brumfvck> "We've becaused fire seems to a better understanding heavily on
13:48 < brumfvck> The drought in the old city that's the Puente Hills tumbled, the scene. In past decade, said when fire growing for the past years ago with injured. The economy of Nepal, according helpless," he said when the mid-50s, cold enough the resident of this size," USGS Could Increases in central California Earthquake struck but can boost the poor Southern Baja in 2010 Easter a massive fire season in
13:48 < brumfvck> wetter year-round tinderbox.
13:48 < brumfvck> "This poor Southered spending helples Times are yet to get with injured. The temple shop worst earthquake Risk)
13:50 < durka42> ki'e xalbo .u'i
13:50 <@xalbo> je'e
13:50 <@xalbo> .i mi xenru lo nu mi na jundi ca lo simsa be do'e la'oi #ckule
13:53 < Ilmen> coi glibau lisysku
13:53 < Ilmen> .i va'o lo nu djica lo nu tavla fi la .nepal. zo'u .e'o pilno lo jbobau
13:53 < durka42> co'o glibau clatcelisysku
13:54 < Ilmen> lo dei se .irci zo'u .ei tavla fa ja fo lo jbobau
13:55 < Ilmen> *fi ja fo
13:55 < Ilmen> .u'i
13:55 < durka42> yy
13:55 < durka42> mi toly'aktygau la nuzba
13:55 < durka42> vlaste: toly'aktygau
13:55 < vlaste> tolgau (components) = to'e gasnu ≈ polar-opposite do
13:55 < durka42> oi
13:55 < durka42> cinki za'o
13:55 < durka42> vlaste: toly'aktygau (co)
13:55 < vlaste> toly'aktygau (components) = to'e akt? gasnu ≈ polar-opposite akt? do
13:56 < Ilmen> cfi'ila
13:56 <@xalbo> vlaste: cfi'ila
13:56 < vlaste> no results. http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/cfi%27ila
13:56 < Ilmen> cfila je cfi'ila
13:56 < Ilmen> cizra je ci'izra
13:57 < durka42> mo'u flixru
14:36 < Ilmen> ua la simpson cu sanga
15:22 < snanu> en: cfi'ila
15:22 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
15:23 < snanu> xu la mense cu sipna
15:23 < snanu> su
15:25 < snanu> jbo: cfi'ila
15:25 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
15:32 < snanu> nana nana nana nana bianfu prenu
15:57 < pilno> coi
16:01 < snanu> coi la pilno
16:05 < pilno> .i ma fa lo jboza'i pe do
16:06 < snanu> en: jboza'i
16:07 < mensi> [< lojbo zasti ≈ Lojbanic exist] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
16:07 < mensi> jbozat[5878], lobzat[5898], jboza'i[6367], lobza'i[6387], jbozasti[7917], ...
16:07 < durka42> mi sampla zo'ei la nuzba
16:08 < snanu> cfipu .i di'u selbri ma
16:09 < durka42> va'i ma zasti do lo lojbo
16:11 < pilno> what?
16:11 < durka42> I tried to paraphrase
16:12 < pilno> did i say something wrong?
16:15 < pilno> fixed it: .i mo fa lo jboza'i pe do
16:22 < Taun> .y. coi
16:22 < pilno> coi
16:23 < durka42> mi ctuca N tau lo judrysni
16:24 < pilno> whats N?
16:24 < durka42> .i .ai cipra nau
16:24 < durka42> N du la nuzba
16:24 < durka42> ba lo nu co'u cusku kei zi lo mentu be li re cu cusku fa la nuzba
16:26  * nuzba @durkavore: soi #jbobau #cipra lo dei se tu'itsku cu vasru za'u judrysni no'u mu'a la'oi http://www.alexburka.com/lojban [http://bit.ly/1F2LuyE]
16:27 < durka42> ui uo .akti
16:31 < pilno> .i lo kumfa cu zdani lo stedu pe mi
17:06 < pilno> coi
17:07 < durka42> coi
17:11 < pilno> .i mi mo la .lojban.
17:15 < ldlework> se jadni
17:16 < pilno> .i mi tirna lo voksa pe la tsani
17:19 < pilno> .i la tsani cu cusku lo nu do citka ba lo mutce pilse ku ku mi
17:36 < snanu> zabna doi la pilno
17:40  * nuzba @ConLangs: Tatoeba Lojban @nonong:  http://bit.ly/1EbrnYr [http://bit.ly/1IHEjfc]
17:47 < pilno> .i la snanu mo
17:48 < ldlework> "tsani says you eat after many apples" ?
17:49 < pilno> ldlework: thats how tsani talks to me, i must find the real meaning
17:49 < ldlework> are you they didn't say "do ba citka lo mutce plise" ?
17:49 < ldlework> sure6
17:49 < ldlework> sure^
17:50 < ldlework> "you will eat many apples"
17:51 < pilno> maybe...
17:55 < pilno> .i mi mo do ti lo nu do citka lo stedu pe mi
17:55 < pilno> .i do mo mi
17:57 < ldlework> jinvi be lo ka cpedu so'i preti ku
17:57 < ldlework> zo'o
18:00 < snanu> mi zvati lo mi jibri ja'e lo nu mi na jundi
--- Log opened Mon May 04 23:45:23 2015
23:45 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 135 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 132 normal]
23:47 -!- Irssi: Join to #lojban was synced in 117 secs
--- Log closed Tue May 05 00:05:58 2015
--- Log opened Tue May 05 00:06:45 2015
00:06 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 136 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 133 normal]
00:08 -!- Irssi: Join to #lojban was synced in 122 secs
00:54 < Ilmen> coi
00:58 < Ilmen> ua ca nau la .lang.xeit. cu snavei curmi ti'e
01:28 < gleki> coi
01:28 < gleki> i o'u la mensi cu volve
01:28 < gleki> i mi ji'a
01:37 <@Broca> ma krasi zo volve
01:39 < gleki> lo spano
01:39 < gleki> i ku'i li'a na prane
01:39 < gleki> i zo'oi volver poi porto cu se smuni lo drata
01:42 <@Broca> ru'a krasi pa lo bangu .i .i'e nai
01:42 <@Broca> ko pilno zo sezyxru
01:45 < gleki> lo gismu poi se krasi lo so'imei cu jai nandu fai lo ka jai se morji
01:45 < gleki> i sa'u mi jmina lo valsi poi krasi lo so'umei i je ku'i naku pa da poi bangu zo'u mi jmina lo valsi poi se krasi da
01:47 <@Broca> je'e
01:49 < gleki> mu'a zo bi'anfu jungo valsi i zo volve spano valsi i zo strelka rusko valsi
03:07  * nuzba @ro_bot_: ロジバン トワ ジンコウゲンゴノヒトツ ノコトデス [http://bit.ly/1Id2VNT]
04:38 < gleki> so we dont have a tag for {gunma} and for {selcmi}, only {loi} and {lo'i}?
05:53 < _mukti_> .i kukte senva da .i xu nai mi catni lo nu toltu'i .i mi litru lo munnje .e lo le xamsi .i ro da sisku de
05:54 < _mukti_> su
05:54 < _mukti_> .i kukte senva da .i xu nai mi catni lo nu toltu'i .i mi litru lo munje .e lo ze xamsi .i ro da sisku de
05:55 < _mukti_> .i da djija lo nu pilno do .i da djica lo nu da se pilno do .i da djica lo nu malpli do .i da djica lo nu se malpli
06:34 < Ilmen> .u'e
06:53 < gleki> la mukti cu cusku tai la selkik
09:06 < gleki> strange. Naxle is working again.
11:04 < durka42> coi
11:08 < gleki> durka42: coi do ma nuzba la'oi L0
11:09 < durka42> na nuzba nau .i .ei mi finti lo datnynoi .i ba tau ri co'e la'a .ai
11:09 < snanu> coi la durka
11:09 < gleki> ti'e zo nau co'a sumka'i
11:10 < snanu> en: ti'e
11:10 < mensi> ti'e = [UI2] evidential: I hear (hearsay). |>>> See also tirna, sitna, tcidu. |>>>
11:10 < mensi> officialdata
11:10 < durka42> coi la snanu ui
11:10 < gleki> alta: la snanu ui
11:10 < mensi> ([FA {la <(¹snanu ui¹) SF> KU}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
11:11 < durka42> zo nau ba'e co'a xu sumka'i .i ka'u za'o ze'e sumka'i .iku'i norsmu
11:12 < snanu> en: norsmu
11:12 < mensi> [< no'e smuni ≈ Scalar midpoint not meaning] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:12 < mensi> norsmu[5878], normun[5898], no'esmu[6367], no'ermun[7487], norsmuni[7917], ...
11:12 < durka42> ua sumka'i .i su .i mi pu tcidu zo sumtcita
11:12 < durka42> za'a la ilmen puzi pilno zo nau poi sumka'i vecu'u la kibjasyselkei tecu'u mi
11:15 < gleki> la ilmen ta'e cusku lu ca nau li'u i ma satci gerna klesi zo nau poi me la ilmen moi vau a'u
11:18 < gleki> durka42: any desire to join the team of  "taggers of Tatoeba sentences"? This team is growing very fast. Last week the were 0 members. As of now there is 1.
11:19 < gleki> durka42: you just enter tags into one google doc and then it will be mass uploaded to the actual website.
11:19 < durka42> .u'i xekcedixanomu
11:19 < durka42> sure why not
11:20 < durka42> xekcedixanomu je xekcedipapanore
11:20 < gleki> durka42: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Md0pojdcO3EVf3LQPHXFB7uOThNvTWszkWd5T4YhvKs/edit?usp=drive_web
11:20 < gleki> my main concern is "low quality/wrong" tag.
11:20 < gleki> we need to filter out loq quality pairs
11:20 < gleki> *low
11:21 < durka42> what should we put in the column for a tag
11:21 < durka42> "X"? "1"?
11:21 < gleki> anything
11:22 < gleki> well, sorry
11:22 < gleki> not anything
11:22 < gleki> definitely not empty string :D
11:22 < durka42> je'e
11:22 < gleki> if you need more tags not listed there add more columns
11:22 < durka42> .i'a
11:23 < gleki> if we do this we'll have a really good tool for nintadni and jbocre
11:23 < gleki> to lo jbocre ka'e mo'e lo vrici va'e tolcre toi
11:24 < durka42> I added a formatting rule so any non-empty cells turn black
11:25 < gleki> durka42: hm, maybe different columns need different colors and/or borders, idk
11:25 < gleki> to visually separate them better
11:26 < gleki> let me also add filters
11:26 < durka42> sure
11:27 < gleki> filters allow hiding sentences already tagged ("existing tags" column)
11:29 < durka42> neat
11:30 < gleki> durka42: as for adding new sentences the idea is: 1. export English sentences that have audio into a google sheet. 2. translate what you like, export only translated sentences to .csv 3. use a simple script sending post requests and your cookies to Tatoeba.org 4. Profit (you can ask them to become an advanced contributor)
11:30 < gleki>  that have audio <-- because they are of high quality
11:30 < durka42> je'e
11:35 < gleki> durka42: im too tired now but i suppose i should start from the end of the list so that our activities dont overlap? i'll start in around 12 hours
11:35 < durka42> sure
11:35 < durka42> I'm not going to start right now either
11:37 < durka42> since it can be anything except empty string, I'll put a useful comment in columns F and K
11:38 < durka42> so we can go and fix them later after all the tags
11:38 < durka42> gleki: what about NNC-tagged sentences where that tag should be removed?
11:39 < gleki> durka42: ha! interesting.
11:40 < durka42> maybe we should copy column E to F and then to remove NNC we can clear column F?
11:40 < gleki> durka42: given that there are ~100 sentences with NNC the best way is to idk just create a new column and then inform me?
11:40 < durka42> sure I'll do that
11:40 < gleki> you can check them all in a matter of minutes i think
11:41 < gleki> durka42: dont remove "existing tags" column since i havent tried in my script removing actual tags.
11:41 < gleki> "existing tags" should be in "read-onlu" mode.
11:41 < gleki> *only
11:42 < gleki> and it seems sutsis can now really get rid of polymer.js. I can't find any bugs in the polymer-less version
11:42 < durka42> I wasn't going to edit that column
11:43 < durka42> en: swiss
11:43 < mensi> 8 da se tolcri: xelveto, bansugugu, bansulufu, bansusuru, fomke'acirla, baurgusuve, dansrgunse,
11:43 < mensi> panje
11:43 < durka42> en: xelveto
11:43 < mensi> xelveto = x1 is Swiss in aspect x2. |>>> phma
11:43 < snanu> I am interested in helping with tatoeba. Most of the english phrases seem simple enough for even me to translate
11:43 < durka42> someone decided to write "xelvetiko" in their sentence instead
11:43 < durka42> ci'izra
11:43 < gleki> i only wrote a script that adds tags. Giving it to you will be of no use since it depends on my (=corpus maintainer) cookies.
11:43 < durka42> snanu: please do!
11:44 < gleki> en: xelvet
11:44 < mensi> xelvet = Switzerland. |>>> Cf. gugdrxelvo, gugdecuxe, xelvetik. |>>> phma
11:44 < gleki> en: xelvetik
11:44 < mensi> xelvetik = Switzerland. |>>> Cf. gugdrxelvo, gugdecuxe, xelvet. |>>> arj
11:44 < snanu> en: ci'izra
11:44 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:44 < snanu> .y.
11:44 < gleki> ah, a word from "Alice"
11:44 < gleki> {ci'izra} =curiousier
11:45 < gleki> LMW: the new website icon
11:46 < snanu> can't find ci'izra in sutsis or vlasisku.
11:47 < snanu> rafsi: ci'i
11:47 < mensi> zo cinri se rafsi zo'oi ci'i
11:47 < snanu> rafsi: zra
11:47 < mensi> y no da se tolcri
11:47 < durka42> it's not a lujvo
11:47 < snanu> xu fu'ivla
11:47 < durka42> go'i
11:47 < durka42> jbofuvi zo cizra
11:47 < durka42> en:jbofuvi
11:47 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:47 < durka42> oi
11:48 < durka42> zo jbofuvi jbofuvi zo jbojbofu'ivla
11:49 < gleki> snanu: it's found as an ad hoc word only in the translation of "Alice in Wonderland"
11:50 < snanu> .i mi ca'a cilre fi zo na .i .ai cilre fi lo fu'ivla baku
11:50 < durka42> gleki: I added two columns but I don't know how to extend the filter thing
11:51 < snanu> .i ma judri
11:51 < gleki> durka42: press on Filter in the toolbar, it will disappear. Press again, it will appear for all columns
11:51 < durka42> I can't do it, "the spreadsheet owner has protected the cells"
11:51 < durka42> :)
11:51 < gleki> !
11:52 < gleki> i only protected the first 4 columns
11:52 < selpahi> mi pu zi lanli ji'i renono jufra gi'e tcitygau (to so'i lo jufra cu naldra toi) .i ku'i mo lo valturge'a .i mu'a zoi gy. tokion .gy jai cafne .i ka'e finti lo cnino .y kamju
11:52 < selpahi> ne lu laldo valturge'a li'u
11:52 < selpahi> .i ja do zmiku basti
11:53 < durka42> pe'i xagmau fa lo nu kamju finti
11:53 < gleki> selpahi: xu do kakne lo ka jmina lo tcita
11:53 < durka42> zo rajypau ta'o
11:54 < selpahi> mi kakne
11:54 < durka42> kakneko
11:54 < snanu> coi la selpa'i
11:54 < gleki> selpahi: ge'esaisai i mi'a zukte fi lo nu baku zmiku jmina
11:54 < selpahi> coi la snanu
11:54 < durka42> coi la .perup.
11:54 < selpahi> .i mi djuno
11:54 < selpahi> .i do ma ge'enmo
11:54 < gleki> selpahi: la'a do zukte lo mintu i janli se zukte
11:55 < durka42> ta'o mi se zdile mutce do'e le kibjasyselkei .i banli fa lo nu lojbo kelci
11:55 < gleki> i ku'i co'o
11:55 < snanu> do pilno lo banli leksiko
11:55 < selpahi> ua nai
11:55 < selpahi> .i mi pilno lo do gredile
11:56 < snanu> ki'a .i mi ponse lo gredile xu
11:56 < selpahi> mi tavla la gleki
11:56 < selpahi> .i ri pante .i ku'i la'a sruma lo jitfa .i mi se cfipu
11:56 < snanu> .uaru'e je'e
11:57 < selpahi> .i la gleki cu djica lo nu ma'a seltcitygau lo jufra .i mi zukte .i ku'i la gleki cu ge'enmo
11:57 < selpahi> .i go'i ma sei mi kucli
11:57 < durka42> za'a lo gugle gredile cu kakne tau lo dikni mekso .i ja'o la'a cumki fa lo nu zmiku sisku lo ka laldo vlaturge'a
11:57 < selpahi> .i si'au la gleki pu te simlu fi mi fe lo ka pilno lo drata gredile ja la .tato'ebas. .i ku'i na jetnu
11:57 < durka42> ua
11:58 < selpahi> .i zo dikni na je zo javni matpi .i'a pei
11:58 < selpahi> mapti
11:59 < durka42> mi pu zu cusku lu javni mekso li'u .i no da jimpe .u'i
11:59 < durka42> ku'i mi tugni
11:59 < durka42> .ai mi za'e jbovlagu (to jbovlastegau toi)
11:59 < durka42> .oi valtcizbaga
12:00 < selpahi> .oi dai zo'o
12:00 < selpahi> .i ko gasnu lo nu jbovlaste
12:00 < durka42> .u'i
12:00 < durka42> mi gasnu lo nu la jbovlaste cu jbovlaste zo jvame'o
12:00 < durka42> za'a la jbovlaste xa'o jbovlaste zo jbovlaste
12:01 < selpahi> mi jbovlaste lo se pagbu be lo mi prebankle
12:01 < selpahi> coi la .olmen.
12:03 < durka42> coi ri
12:03 < durka42> no'i ma selma'o zo nau
12:03 < durka42> mensi: ko ningau
12:03 < mensi> sei ca ca'o jai gau cnino be fai lo pe mi sorcu
12:03 < mensi> i ba'o jai gau cnino
12:04 < durka42> en: jvame'o
12:04 < mensi> jvame'o [< javni mekso ≈ Term MEX] = x1 is a regular expression matching strings x2 and capturing groups x3, using flags/
12:04 < mensi> options/extensions x4. |>>> Uses javni and not dikni for the same reason we don't say dikyjvo anymore! |>>>
12:04 < mensi> durka42
12:04 < selpahi> je'e .i talsa filo lojbo
12:05 < durka42> ie
12:06 < durka42> lo lojbo velciksi zo'u sarcu fa lo .ensaiko jenai lo vlaste
12:06 < selpahi> .i ju'o cu'i ba zu cumki fa lo nu zo je'i ja zo ji'e co'a krati lu fi'o jinvi fe'u li'u
12:06 < durka42> .ensaiklo
12:06 < selpahi> je'e glitaiba'u
12:11 < durka42> fau lo nu .a'u sai lo selpamnomterjonci'e cu basti lo laldo cu cumki fa lo nu zanpilno zo je'i
12:11 < selpahi> go'i
12:12 < durka42> .cekitaujaus. bu jo'au la .cekitaujaus. cu banli je'i mi
12:13 < durka42> xm
12:13 < durka42> ma xe fanva zoi gy area code gy
12:14 < durka42> diklo nacme'e?
12:14 < durka42> tergugypau nacme'e?
12:14 < b_jonas> pe xu fonxa doi durka42
12:14 < selpahi> ka'e vimcu lo pa moi be lo rafsi .i ku'i ie
12:14 < durka42> en:fonxa
12:14 < mensi> fonxa = x1 is a telephone transceiver/modem attached to system/network x2.
12:14 < b_jonas> y
12:15 < b_jonas> sa pe xu lo fonxa doi durka42
12:15 < durka42> selpahi: ku'i zo gugypau xa'o steci smuni .i na mapti
12:15 < durka42> selsmu*
12:15 < durka42> b_jonas: ie
12:16 < durka42> .ai mi jbovlasgu zo nacme'e ji'a toi'e .u'i
12:16 < durka42> mi jmina lo mupli no'u lu zoi .perl. (\d{3})[ -]?\d{3}[ -]?\d{4} .perl. cu jvame'o lo merko fonxa judri lo diklo nacme'e li'u
12:17 < selpahi> ta'o .e'e sai doi ro jbopre ko ca ro nu do pensi su'o da poi smuni je poi do fliba lo ka cusku bau lo jbobau cu jmina da lo liste ne lo nabmyrta'imacusku
12:17 < selpahi> .i ko'oi tcaci
12:17 < durka42> ie
12:17 < durka42> ma liste ku'i
12:17 < durka42> xu sivni be ro jbopre be'o liste
12:17 < selpahi> .i .ei ro nu smuni fliba cu se jalge gaja lo nu jmina su'o cnino la jbovlate gi lo nu jmina su'o nabmi lo nabmi liste
12:18 < selpahi> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LH_bawafDZBp5h4shGoajnTU7sttOilfpyxqUD4B5BM/edit#gid=0
12:18 < selpahi> ^mupli
12:18 < selpahi> .i lo nu sivni na sarcu
12:18 < durka42> .i'e
12:20 < durka42> .oi lo jbovlaste cu daspo lo jvame'o ri'a tau lo kruvi veizeilerfu
12:24 < durka42> zo nacme'e du zo na'ucme noi xagmau fo lo .algoritmo lo cmalu .iku'i mi zmanei zo nacme'e pei
12:27 < durka42> ni'o mi co'a pensi lo ninvla
12:28 < durka42> lo'u cumki fa lo nu le'u ze'ei nu
12:29 < selpahi> lo mi se jinvi cu srana lo mi rafsi co'e .i su'a mi zmanei lo rafsi poi mu'a lo pa bi'o ci moi be lo lerfu pe lo ke'a gismu cu dunli ke'a .i mu'a ra'oi -nac-  na dunli gi'e ja'e bo se nalnei mi .i ra'oi -cme- ci zei lerfu dunli gi'e ja'e bo se nelci mi .i da'i mi cuxna zo namcme .i ku'i  ca'o se smuni lo drata ne lu nabmi cmene li'u li'a .i ja'o mi
12:29 < selpahi>  na stidi
12:30 < selpahi> .i ku'i lo .algoritma mi no'e vajni
12:31 < selpahi> .i lo do ninvla zo'u ma te frica lo'u nu ka'e le'u
12:31 < durka42> mi na djuno .i sa'u cafne sai cusku lo'u cumki falonu le'u
12:31 < selpahi> ie .i ku'i do djica tu'a lo ba'e nu zei cmavo xu
12:32 < durka42> djica lo tordymau
12:32 < selpahi> (to do cusku zoi gy. ze'ei nu .gy toi)
12:32 < selpahi> .i zo ka'e tordu gi'e smudu'i
12:32 < durka42> co'a jinvi zo nu na mapti
12:32 < durka42> lu ka'eku li'u la'a banzu
12:36 < durka42> lb:nelci
12:36 < mensi> nelci = nelci — x1(entity)  likes  x2(clause)
12:36 < mensi> :lo nelci — fancier. lo se nelci — liked.
12:36 < mensi> :mi nelci lo ka kelci la Tenis — I like playing tennis.
12:36 < mensi> :mi nelci ro nu do cusku lo simsa — I like whenever you say such things.
12:36 < mensi> :mi nelci lo ckafi ne se mau — I prefer coffee.
12:36 < mensi> :Comment: prami is for to love, nelci is for to like.
12:36 < mensi> :Related words: cinmo, djica, pluka, prami, rigni, sinma, trina, xebni, cuxna, pendo
12:37 < durka42> nelci2 is an event or a property of x1?
12:38 < selpahi> The tatoeba DB is full of those kinds of things; "mi djica lo ka jarco lo banli jvinu do" which contains two controversial phrases
12:38 < selpahi> Nobody can really say what's right
12:38 < Ilmen> coi
12:38 < durka42> heh
12:39 < durka42> selpahi: did you tag row 92 as a wrong translation?
12:39 < durka42> I guess I'll just leave the nelci-ka alone and usage will decide in twenty years or so :)
12:39 < selpahi> Yes, at first it seemed correct, but I think it's wrong
12:39 < selpahi> Both readings make sense, but only one fits the English
12:40 < durka42> is it wrong"
12:40 < durka42> to get "I start to get a headache when I use the computer" you'd have to put {ca ro nu…} first
12:41 < selpahi> Yes.
12:41 < ldlework> does it only work with the ro?
12:41 < durka42> so it seems fine
12:41 < Ilmen> lu lo nu skami pilno cu na'o sedycro be fa mi rinka li'u ji'a ka'e mapti
12:41 < ldlework> IE, to translate that sentence, do you have to quantify "everytime" I use the computer
12:42 < selpahi> To me, in the English, the person already is getting headaches (whenever X happens), it's not just starting to become a thing
12:42 < selpahi> And the {co'a} is part of "get a headache"
12:42 < selpahi> But it's not entirely clear
12:42 < durka42> starting the english sentence with "now" is like {co'a ku}
12:42 < durka42> pe'i
12:42 < ldlework> Sure, I'm just wondering if you leave out the ro, does it become a super-set of interpretation?
12:42 < durka42> like, "I stabbed myself in the eye with a hot poker. Now I have a headache!"
12:43 < selpahi> Now to me sounds more like ba'o co'a
12:43 < durka42> I don't understand ba'oco'a :p
12:43 < selpahi> If you say "now I have a headache" do you mean it's just starting to hurt right now?
12:43 < ldlework> After the start
12:43 < durka42> ldlework: {ca ro nu} = "every time"
12:43 < ldlework> durka42: I know
12:44 < ldlework> but doesn't {ca nu} also contain that possible interpretation
12:44 < durka42> then I may not have understood what you asked, .u'unmo
12:44 < selpahi> {ca lo nu}
12:44 < ldlework> right, sorry
12:44 < durka42> {ca lo nu} contains that, sure, but it could also just mean that one time
12:44 < ldlework> Okay so we're just being specific. Thanks.
12:44 < durka42> selpahi: I think so yes
12:45 < durka42> "now I have a headache" implies "and I didn't a short while ago" to me
12:45 < selpahi> Yes, but that's not the point. THe point is, does it not imply {mi ca'o sedycro} ?
12:45 < durka42> mi ca'o cortu lo stedu — I currently have a headache
12:45 < durka42> it does imply that
12:46 < selpahi> So then {co'a} is not correct.
12:46 < selpahi> It's {ba'o co'a}
12:46 < durka42> now I see what you mean with {ba'o co'a} I think
12:46 < durka42> je'e bu'o
12:46 < selpahi> {ca ba'o co'a}
12:46 < durka42> je'e cmecau rangutano
12:47 < selpahi> na'o me la cmecau
12:47 < selpahi> #cmecau
12:47 < Ilmen> di'ai sedycro .i .a'o sedycroco'u .i ko'oi xamgu nu xagze'a
12:48 < durka42> ri'a lo nu ckafi pinxe mi mo'u sedycro
12:48 < durka42> oi
12:48 < selpahi> zanfu'a fa lo nu xanri po'o fa lo nu sedycro
12:48 < durka42> ri'a lo nu ckafi pinxe cu mo'u sedycro fami
12:48 < selpahi> .i ua xu do ji'a sedycro .i ja'o lo mupli pu mapti
12:48 < durka42> nau nai
12:49 < selpahi> mensi doi mukti mi viska lo do xe fanva pe la'e lu zbasu lo titla nunsenva ti li'u .i mi zanru
12:49 < selpahi> mensi: doi mukti mi viska lo do xe fanva pe la'e lu zbasu lo titla nunsenva ti li'u .i mi zanru
12:49 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.mukti.gy. di'a cusku da
12:50 < durka42> ua ma xe fanva
12:50 < selpahi> zbasu lo titla nunsenva ti
12:50 < durka42> xu lisri
12:51 < selpahi> i xu mi se mapti lo ka toltugni .i mi litru lo munje je lo ze xamsi .i ro da sisku su['o] de .i .y li'o
12:51 < selpahi> .i la mukti cu frica fanva .i ku'i xu do se slabu
12:51 < durka42> ua ua go'i .i sanga
12:51 < selpahi> go'i
12:52 < durka42> xu judrysni
12:52 < selpahi> na go'i .i .irci cusku ca lo nicte co prula'i
12:53 < selpahi> .i no da pu spuda .i se mu'i bo mi ca spuda
12:53 < selpahi> .i .au la mukti cu djuno lo du'u su'o da tcidu gi'e .i'onmo
12:53 < Ilmen> doi la selpa'i
12:53 < selpahi> za'a casnu lo mi jufra ne zo .ei
12:54 < Ilmen> do'e la ckule ca nau zo'u la .pegazus. cu brireisku lo ka lu ni'o pu zu vu ku zàsti fa lo noltrubè'a poị djìca lo nu spèni lo noltrutì'u noị ku'i .eị jètnu noltrutì'u li'u zo'u ce'u jei lo se cinmo pe zo .ei cu se cinmo lo lisysku
12:54 < Ilmen> ie
12:55 < selpahi> mi tugni do lo du'u na prane mapti fa zo .ei .i ku'i mi sanji no xagmau
12:55 < selpahi> .i .ai basti ca lo nu ja'a sanji
12:55 < Ilmen> .i pe'i pei zo .ei va'o lo nu na lidne fe mu'a zo pei .a zo dai zo'u bi'ai ku lo cusku cu cinmo
12:55 < selpahi> .i ku'i la .xorxes. cu jinvi lo du'u drani
12:56 < selpahi> .i ba'e mi na tugni sa.i mi tugni
12:56 < selpahi> (to ie pei doi zu'i toi)
12:56 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
12:57 < selpahi> .i sa'u ia ma'a nu'o djuno lo du'u ma kau brivla panra zo .ei
12:57 < selpahi> .i lu te javni li'u zo'u mi na tugni
12:57 < selpahi> .i sa'e na mansa mi .i simlu lo ka li me'i rau ni mapti
13:01 < snanu> Where is the tatoeba spreadsheet?
13:01 < selpahi> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Md0pojdcO3EVf3LQPHXFB7uOThNvTWszkWd5T4YhvKs/edit#gid=0
13:06 < pilno_> coi
13:06 < Ilmen> coi
13:06 < selpahi> coi
13:06 < Ilmen> do me ma poi zo pilno cmene
13:06 < selpahi> #zanfuhafalonuciroicusku
13:07 < pilno_> brb
13:07 < selpahi> sa'e #rìnkalozanfù'afalonuciroicùsku
13:10 < selpahi> ху ла пилно шу пендо ла шадгу'а
13:10 <@xalbo> .i mi po'o .irci la'oi #zanfuhafalonuciroicusku
13:10 < selpahi> .u'i na se .irci fa ri
13:11 < selpahi> .i tcityrxactagi
13:11 < selpahi> .i srana la .tu'iter.
13:11 <@xalbo> co'a se .irci
13:11 < selpahi> ua pei
13:11 <@xalbo> ba'o se .irci
13:11 <@xalbo> je'e
13:11 < selpahi> #bahozdani
13:13 < durka42> zdani ma
13:13 < selpahi> ma kau .i pagbu la xunre cukta
13:15 < selpahi> ju'o cu'i na go'i .i la .lojbab. pu cusku zoi gy. the completitive of a house is when it naturally decays out of being a
13:15 < selpahi>     house to become something no-longer-a-house (ba'o zdani) .gy
13:15 < selpahi> .i sa'u misno sidbo sei mi pu sruma
13:15 < durka42> ua
13:15 < durka42> xu lo pu zdani be lo zdamuvdu cu ba'o zdani
13:16 < durka42> ba'o zdani vo'a .iku'i ca'o zdani lo drata la'a
13:16 < selpahi> la .ba'amut. cu (to ti'e toi) zmanei zo zdacne lo se pagbu be zo muvdu
13:16 < selpahi> .i xu na vlaste ru
13:16 < selpahi> jbo:zdacne
13:17 < mensi> [< zdani cenba ≈ Zdani* cenba*] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:17 < mensi> zdacne[5858], zdacenba[7917], zdanycne[7988], zdanycenba[10047]
13:17 < selpahi> .oi
13:17 < durka42> en:zdacne
13:17 < mensi> [< zdani cenba ≈ Nest vary] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:17 < mensi> zdacne[5858], zdacenba[7917], zdanycne[7988], zdanycenba[10047]
13:17 < durka42> lo mi mupli za'o sanli
13:17 < selpahi> li'a
13:17 < selpahi> .i li'a jetnu
13:17 < selpahi> .i la'a sai la .lojbab. pu pensi lo ba'e dinju je lo nu zdani zi'o
13:17 < durka42> ie
13:17 <@xalbo> #bahospitaki
13:17 < selpahi> .i mixre lo malgli le jbokai
13:18 < selpahi> sa
13:18 < selpahi> mixre lo magli joi le lobykai
13:18 < selpahi> jo'a sai!
13:20 < selpahi> i lo rango ke xukmi pruxe zo'u ti mulno ti mabla cando binxo i  ro du'u le vi spitaki cu srana cu ze'e ba na drani i ti ba'o spitaki
13:21 < selpahi> i ti malciblu morsi
13:21 < selpahi> i na go'i i badri morji
13:21 < selpahi> i ti na badri morji
13:21 < selpahi> i ti badri morsi
13:21 < selpahi> i le vi spitaki cu na ranji
13:21 < selpahi> i ti sisti le nu zasti
13:21 < selpahi> i ti se fanmo gi'e cliva le nu penmi le ti zbasu
13:21 < selpahi> i ti tinsa
13:21 < selpahi> i se cau le ka jmive vau ti panpi surla
13:21 < selpahi> i gonai do dinko lasna ti le grana
13:21 < selpahi> gi ti fa'arga'u la krasantemon
13:21 < selpahi> i ti na cpana le jimca
13:21 < pilno_> back
13:22 < durka42> coi xrukla
13:22 < Ilmen> coi la bekpi
13:22 < durka42> .u'i
13:23 < Ilmen> .u'elselsku
13:24 < selpahi> pagbu la morsi spitaki ku noi draci
13:29 < crw\fn-pu-din> gleki: ta'o lo bi'u nai greke'a da'i zo'u na zasti .i mi pu se tcica
13:31 < selpahi> .ai pei do ji'a doi la .pudin. co'a se tcaci lo ka jmina lo nabmi lo liste
13:32 < bardukuhycti> .ai
13:32 < selpahi> ue
13:32 < bardukuhycti> (to mi la barduku me'au ji'i no da toi)
13:34 < selpahi> cinri cmene fa lu barduku me'au ji'i no da li'u
13:34 < bardukuhycti> .autci
13:34 < bardukuhycti> .i mi ka'e co'u le'i .lojban.
13:35 < selpahi> .ai lo .aiste si bistca si bislytcati cu pagbu lo mi .aiste
13:35 < selpahi> #nahexajminuxajmytoi
13:36 < selpahi> .oi mi mutce lo ka se xajmi ca ku
13:36 < selpahi> kei ca ku vau sei cabna
13:38 < bardukuhycti> mi se trina fi lo ka kotpipeiste lo lu .sankt. bernard. li'u jufra
13:39 < selpahi> ko randa lo te trina
13:40 < bardukuhycti> .y za'a mi fliba co pilno zo trina
13:41 < bardukuhycti> .i ma tadji gi'e drani
13:41 < bardukuhycti> .i ia nai zo'u .ei zo'u pagbu lo .eiste
13:41 < selpahi> fau tu'a zo ka .i katrina
13:42 < selpahi> .i ju'o cu'i lo do te trina ka'e ve trina
13:42 < bardukuhycti> da'i na xlali
13:42 < selpahi> .i lo nu melbi tcima cu trina mi lo ka pluka kei lo ka klama lo panka
13:42 < selpahi> .i la'a la .ilmen. cu zanru
13:43 < bardukuhycti> li'a bu'o .i zo cu'uxna simsa
13:43 < selpahi> ie
13:44 < selpahi> .i ku'i cumki fa ji'a lo nu lo se trina cu nu zei bridi
13:44 < selpahi> .i va'o tersumei li ci
13:44 < selpahi> .i lo tcima cu trina lo nu mi klama lo panka kei lo ka pluka ja glare
13:45 < selpahi> cizra ru'e
13:45 < Ilmen> ua zo cu'uxna slabu
13:45 < bardukuhycti> su'o roi lavmumble casnu ri
13:45 < Ilmen> sa'u lo terbri pe zo cuxna cizra mi .i ku'i cumki fa lo nu mi .olkai lo ka se cizra
13:46 < selpahi> do ma jinvi zo trina
13:46 < selpahi> .i va'i lo katrina cu ka mo
13:46 < bardukuhycti> planycarbi'e xu
13:47 < selpahi> go'i ja ninmu
13:48 < Ilmen> jbo: trina
13:48 < mensi> trina = lo nu x1 ckaji x3 cu danre x2 fa'a x1 gi'a rinka lo nu x2 muvdu x1 gi'a djica lo ka jbize'a x1 |>>> ckaji;
13:48 < mensi> danre; rinka; muvdu; djica; jbize'a |>>> xorxes
13:48 < selpahi> .oi zo danre
13:48 < selpahi> .i .ambigu sai smuni
13:49 < selpahi> fa lo me la .xorxes. moi
13:49 < selpahi> .i nalsrana zei ta'o mi nelci lo nu cusku lu lo nu ko'a mo cu broda li'u fau lo nu se basti fa lu ma pe ko'a cu broda li'u
13:49 < Ilmen> mi jo'u la xorxes cu jinvi lo du'u lo si'o danre cu bi'ai nai srana lo si'o catke .i ku'i va'o ku mi da'i zmanei zo fauxlu ju'o cu'i
13:51 < Ilmen> .i .u'e lo si'o trina pe la xorxes cu bi'ai srana lo si'o muvdu
13:51 < Ilmen> sei simlu
13:51 < selpahi> zo gi'a se pilno
13:52 < selpahi> .i ku'i ie milxe
13:52 < Ilmen> lu muvdu gi'a jbize'a djica li'u
13:52 < selpahi> .i jbize'a fi ma ku'i zo'o ru'e
13:52 < Ilmen> je'e ie
13:52 < Ilmen> jbo: xlura
13:53 < mensi> xlura = x1 jai se jalge lo nu x2 tende ja djica ja .aidji x3 kei fai x4 |>>> jalge; tende; djica; aidji; trina; mukti;
13:53 < mensi> jitro; minde; stidi; kajde |>>> xorxes
13:53 < bardukuhycti> sei sedjbuco'e
13:53 < selpahi> bu'o .i do pu djica tu'a zo xlura ie pei
13:53 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
13:54 < bardukuhycti> go'i
13:54 < selpahi> mi ji'a na pensi zo xlura
13:54 < Ilmen> xlura xrula
14:05 < Ilmen> i mi na snada lo ka ciska fi la nabmyrta'imacusku
14:06 < selpahi> ko za'u re'u troci
14:07 < Ilmen> uo
14:07 < Ilmen> ki'e
14:07 < selpahi> .u'u .i mi pu jinvi lo du'u pu pu co'e
14:07 < Ilmen> za'a la cmecau .akcolotli cu drata la selpa'i
14:23 < Ilmen> lu kargau lo cukta li'u na'e ke na'e mapti simlu fi mi
14:23 < selpahi> xu lo cukta cu vorme
14:24 < Ilmen> .i sa'u muvgau lo pagbu pe lo cukta ja'e lo nu lo poi'i pu na ganse ja pencu ke'a cu co'a ka'e se ganse ja se pencu
14:24 < Ilmen> jbo: kalri
14:24 < mensi> kalri = lo nu pagre x1 boi (to noi vorme toi) x2 fa x3 fo zi'o cu nalselzu'i zi'o zi'o |>>> ko catlu fe ji'a zo ganlo .e
14:24 < mensi> zo pagre .e zo canko .e zo vorme .e zo nalselzu'i |>>> selpahi
14:25 < Ilmen> ŋŋŋ lo pagbu pe lo cukta cu fanta lo nu lo guska'u mu'a cu pagre
14:25 < selpahi> ie .i ku'i na pagre lo cukta
14:26 < selpahi> .i lo nu tolplogau cu srana
14:26 < Ilmen> lo cukta tanxe cu zasti .i nitcu lo ka tolplogau kei lo ka cpacu lo nenri
14:28 < Ilmen> .i ku'i lo ca'a cukta zo'u no kunti cu pagbu .i ku'i fau lo nu ganlo zo'u lo sinxa poi zvati lo sefta be lo nenri cu na ka'e se ganse ja se tolcliva
14:28 < Ilmen> .i cumki fa lo nu lo si'o kalri ku na baltce lo ka mapti .i ku'i na simlu lo ka li'a zei tolmapti
14:29 < selpahi> ie
14:31 <@xalbo> do ma jinvi lu bregau lo cukta to lo su'u se tcidu toi li'u
14:31 < selpahi> mi pu pensi zo bregau
14:31 < selpahi> .i simlu lo ka ka'e se smuni so'o drata ku ji'a
14:33 <@xalbo> je'e
14:45 < phma> Ilmen: "xrula xlura" is what I've been thinking as a translation of "The Flower's Snare", title for a book about flowers that do unusual things with their pollinators.
14:46 < durka42> o_O
14:50 < phma> la .bil. mlatu
16:16  * nuzba @fotono: #lojban puzimo'ufinti loskina beladatka https://vimeo.com/126974807    http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/23GmTK_K9ss/    https://youtu.be/emCDL4aocDE [http://bit.ly/1RbcIqf]
17:14 < durka42> mo
17:14 < durka42> every time I see Fauve's quit message, I read it as "netcat"
18:32  * nuzba @shukil026: Lojban [http://bit.ly/1zLnLkD]
21:39 < durka42> ldlework: mi puzi tcidu lo do blogo pe la .nim.
21:40 < ldlework> durka42: .i seja'e xu junri'a fa la hacker news
21:41 < durka42> ri naje la .redit.
21:42 < ldlework> ue
21:42 < ldlework> bu'u ma pe'u
21:43 < ldlework> durka42: o'a cu'i zo'o http://i.imgur.com/BWpxym6.png
21:43 < durka42> https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/34z6yo/a_cursory_look_at_metaprogramming_in_nim/
21:44 < durka42> se'o mi se melbi lo nu cmeta sampla pe lai .lisp.
21:45 < durka42> sampymautce .i no simsa be la'oi newProc cu bi'ai zasti
21:46 < durka42> ta'o
21:47 < durka42> mutce co xajmi fa lo nu lo pamoi pinka pe la .redit. fa'u la .xakrnuz. cu sedu'u zo .nim. mabla fa'u zabna
21:54 < ldlework> durka42: xu za'ai pilno la dakir
21:55 < durka42> mi nu'o pilno
21:56 < ldlework> fi ma frica zo nu'o zo ka'e
21:59 < durka42> lo ka'e broda ka'e pu broda .iku'i lo nu'o broda za'o na broda
22:00 < durka42> cfipu bridi .i uapei
22:26 < ldlework> not really
22:27 < ldlework> I get that nu'o means that "having gone too long, not broading"
22:27 < ldlework> ?
22:34 < durka42> vlaste: nu'o
22:34 < vlaste> nu'o = modal aspect: can but has not; unrealized potential.
22:35 < durka42> za'o means "still", and its ma'oste definition is garbage :)
22:35 < durka42> anyway nu'o is a subset of ka'e, that's all
22:35 < durka42> ka'e says it can and may or may not have happened
22:35 < durka42> nu'o specifies that it hasn't
22:36 < durka42> pu'i specifies that it has
22:41 < durka42> co'o
23:05 < gleki> mensi: doi durka i suggest adding "doubtful translation" for translations where no universal solution is accepted
23:05 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.durka.gy. di'a cusku da
--- Day changed Wed May 06 2015
00:52 < gleki> i need a shortcut for {lo se cmima be lo broda}
00:54 <@rlpowell> gleki: Woul a brief lojban.org outage now be a problem for you?
00:54 <@rlpowell> vrici will not be touched.
00:55 < gleki> rlpowell: for me probably no.
00:56 < gleki> rlpowell: database doesnt work atm btw
00:56 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?search=gadri&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1
00:58  * nuzba @uitki: gadri - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1DROBCr]
01:02 <@rlpowell> gleki: I'm not surprised.
01:06 < xeizlif> ;)
01:06 < xeizlif> durr, wrong window :(.
01:07 < xeizlif> happy wink-face to everyone here too :P
01:11 < gleki> rlpowell: okay. then the faster this brief outage happens the better. i just wish no outages ever happen again
01:17 <@rlpowell> gleki: I would be happy to build you a system that will never have outages!  But you don't want to pay what I charge for such work, let alone the ongoing costs of such a system.  :D
01:19 < ldlework> rlpowell: have you dockerized lojban.org yet? :)
01:19 <@rlpowell> Nope.
01:20 <@rlpowell> gleki: OK, it's back up, and should be more stable now that I've ugraded the OS everywhere.
01:20 < gleki> rlpowell: idk, i asked banseljaj once again how much it all would cost but every time lojban.org is back online everyone seems to forget about it
01:21 < gleki> rlpowell: not reallly back now
01:21 <@rlpowell> Whatever number banseljaj gave you, it was too low.
01:21 < gleki> The system returned: (113) No route to host
01:21 < banseljaj> gleki: I'm kinda dealing with real life pressures. I promise I'll get back to you on it next week.
01:21 < banseljaj> also what rlpowell said.
01:21 < gleki> banseljaj: not urgent
01:22 < banseljaj> rlpowell: I didn't give him any number. For various reasons including I am bad at predicting traffic patterns.
01:23 < banseljaj> 13:17:57 <@rlpowell> gleki: I would be happy to build you a system that will never have outages!  But you don't want to pay what I charge for such work, let alone the ongoing costs of such a system.  :D -- I thought it was impossible to build a true non-outage system. :P
01:23 <@rlpowell> Yes, the site is definitely not up.  Poking.
01:43  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: .i la crek. ka prami je jmive    #lojban #jbobau [http://bit.ly/1EWP4IV]
02:00 < selpahi> < gleki> i need a shortcut for {lo se cmima be lo broda}
02:00 <@rlpowell> Maybe breaking the site again.
02:00 < selpahi> {lo se cmima be lo broda} == {lu'i lo broda} == {lo'i [melo] broda}
02:00 < selpahi> doi la gleki
02:08 < gleki> rlpowell: should i reply? db still broken http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?search=lmw&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1
02:08 < gleki> jbo: lu'i
02:09 < gleki> ko smadi lo nu xukau la mensi cu spuda ca da
02:11 < mensi> lu'i = [LAhE] sumgadri le se li'erla'i sumti le du'u sinxa le selcmi be ro ri .e no drata |>>> selcmi sumgadri; ce; la'i,
02:11 < mensi> le'i, lo'i |>>> xorxes
02:11 < gleki> u'i
02:11 < gleki> selpi ku'i lo cnino ve ciksu cu mo i sa'e zvati ma
02:11 < gleki> ue
02:11 < gleki> i la selp cu zvati ma vau ji'a
02:11 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 134 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 131 normal]
03:11 < gleki> hm, we still dont have a parser for this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_grammar
03:24 < demize> CMLG sounds interesting for Lojban.
03:26 < demize> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/jboske/conversations/topics/3106 heh
03:31 < gleki> yes that's where i found it
04:36 < Ilmen> tersmus: mi e do a ko'a broda
04:36 < tersmus> ((broda(mi) /\ broda(do)) \/ broda({ko'a}))
04:40 < gleki> la durka e la selpa'i cu banli lo ka jmina lo tcita lo gredile
04:41 < Ilmen> ua .i'e
04:42 < gleki> xu do na sanji
04:45 < Ilmen> lo gredile pe la mupli ge'u ie pei
04:45 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
04:45 < Ilmen> .i sa'u mi zukcfu lo drata .i pu na catlu
04:45 < gleki> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Md0pojdcO3EVf3LQPHXFB7uOThNvTWszkWd5T4YhvKs/edit
04:45 < gleki> ie
04:46 < gleki> i mi ji'a zukcfu lo drata
04:46 < gleki> i ku'i mi lanli CC boi ji'a
04:47 < Ilmen> balmlu
04:49 < gleki> i ji'a mi pensi lo nu ciksi lo rafsi
04:49 < gleki> i la'a ba simsa la logbanu
04:49 < gleki> i ji'a lo sumtcita e lo gadri ka'e sidju
04:50 < gleki> lu'i, loi, lo'i, ve'i, ve'u, -tci ...
05:09 < gleki> Not sure how it all transferred but sutsis for english is now free from polymer.js Thus it loads and works faster http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html
09:08 < gleki> jbo:lu'i
09:08 < mensi> lu'i = [LAhE] sumgadri le se li'erla'i sumti le du'u sinxa le selcmi be ro ri .e no
09:08 < mensi> drata
09:08 < gleki> be ro ri .e no drata?????
09:12 < durka42> dusta'i pe'a selcmi xu
09:13 < gleki> mi nitcu lo drata
09:14 < gleki> i mi nitcu tu'a lu zo'e noi lo broda cu cmima ke'a li'u
09:14 < gleki> i mi na nitcu tu'a lu zo'e noi lo broda cu se gunma ke'a li'u
09:16 < gleki> hm, can "haber" and "estar" be paralleled {da} and {zo'e}?
09:17 < selpahi> .e'o doi tcidu je voi ralte lo pu .irci selsku ko mi mojgau lo du'u ma kau drata cmene la .ral.
09:18 < selpahi> s/selsku/ selsku zo'u
09:18 < selpahi> .i lo mi vreji cu tordu'e
09:19 < gleki> selpahi: xu do tugni fi tu'a lo ve ciksi be la xorxes bei fo zo lu'i
09:20 < durka42> what on earth does haber/estar have to do with da/zo'e?
09:20 < gleki> gartral, TheSuppernatural
09:20 < gleki> i ku'i la ral zo'u mi na zgana
09:21 < gleki> selpahi: ma satci cmene
09:21 < selpahi> zo .ral.
09:22 < gleki> selpahi: ca lo xomoi nanca pu irci
09:22 < selpahi> na fatci remna .i xarpre
09:22 < selpahi> .i pagbu lo cfika
09:23 < selpahi> ... .ei sa'u mi pilno lo korpora
09:23 < gleki> durka42: "Hay un muchacho ... El muchacho esta en la ..."
09:24 < selpahi> .oi na pagbu lo korpora .i ju'o nai la vreji na .irci
09:24 < durka42> xm
09:24 < gleki> #lojban.2015.04.log:11:58 < omni___> .i la'a la .ral. ba pagdu'a lo nanba la lalmira
09:24 < gleki> u'i
09:25 < selpahi> .i'e doi la .omni .i nu pilno zo pagdu'a
09:25 < selpahi> .i la lalmira cu pendo la .ral.
09:25 < selpahi> .i ca lo cabdei ja lo jibni cu casnu lo drata cmene
09:25 < selpahi> be la .ral.
09:26 < selpahi> .i zo .ral. zasni cmene
09:26 < gleki> durka42: "hay" mentions a new object while "el ... esta " we describe *the* specific object
09:27 < selpahi> .i ko kancu lo .a'y zei lerfu poi pagbu lo jufra pe la .omni
09:28 < durka42> gleki: like {ri'oi} maybe
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:14:10 < selpahi> .i .ei la .ral. co'a se cmene zo .semunin.
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:17 < selpahi> .e'o doi tcidu je voi ralte lo pu .irci selsku ko mi mojgau lo du'u ma kau drata cmene la .ral.
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:20 < gleki> i ku'i la ral zo'u mi na zgana
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:21 < selpahi> zo .ral.
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:24 < gleki> #lojban.2015.04.log:11:58 < omni___> .i la'a la .ral. ba pagdu'a lo nanba la lalmira
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:25 < selpahi> .i la lalmira cu pendo la .ral.
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:25 < selpahi> be la .ral.
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.05.log:09:26 < selpahi> .i zo .ral. zasni cmene
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.04.log:11:58 < omni___> .i la'a la .ral. ba pagdu'a lo nanba la lalmira
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2013.01.log:[26 Jun 13 21:02] * Ilmen * what happen then with mi noi pa moi zvati lo bloti? May I be dismembered ōver sev'ral boats? .ii
09:35 < gleki> #lojban.2015.03.log:09:29 < gleki> -ral-
09:35 < selpahi> ki'e sai
09:35 < selpahi> ...
09:35 < selpahi> .oi ru'e .i ku'i ki'e sai
09:36 < gleki> selpahi: xu do tugni tu'a zo lu'i pe la xorxes
09:36 < selpahi> zo .semunin. ja'o ui
09:36 < gleki> *fi
09:36 < selpahi> la'a go'i
09:36 < gleki> selpahi: i ja'o zo lu'i srana zo gunma enai zo cmima
09:36 < gleki> y
09:37 < gleki> i srana li'a
09:37 < gleki> i ku'i mi nitcu tu'a lu zo'e noi lo broda cu cmima ke'a li'u i la'a na zasti
09:38 < selpahi> ua .i do djica tu'a lo na'e mulno selcmi
09:38 < selpahi> sa'e nai ru'e
09:38 < selpahi> .i nitcu fi ma .a'u
09:40 < selpahi> .i xu lu lo selcmi be ko'a li'u ja'a clanydu'e
09:40 < gleki> ie ie i la'a srana lo metnimi i mu'a lo me'oi bouquet cu gunma lo xrula jo'u lo drata
09:41 < gleki> i seki'ubo lu lo'i xrula li'u na mapti
09:41 < gleki> y 
09:41 < gleki> i lu loi xrula li'u na mapti ji'a
09:42 < selpahi> se pagbu lo xrula
09:42 < gleki> mapti
09:43 < gleki> i ma mupli lo nu pilno lu lu'i broda li'u
09:43 < selpahi> na gendra
09:43 < gleki> i ma mupli lo nu pilno lu lu'i lo broda li'u
09:44 < selpahi> .i zo lu'i panra zo la'e .i li'o
09:44 < selpahi> .i ku'i .ai mi finti pa banli sai mupli
09:44 < gleki> i'e
09:44 < selpahi> .i lo re brabracrida cu barda ! .i ku'i lu'i lo re brabracrida cu cmalu
09:45 < gleki> mi na jimpe lo du'u ki'u makau la naxle di'i co'u akti
09:45 < selpahi> na .akti .i ki'u bo zo NAxle cmene .i ko cmedu'a zo ja'axle
09:45 < gleki> selpahi: remei xu
09:46 < selpahi> ga'a CLL cu re mei .i ku'i na re mei
09:46 < selpahi> .i re da cmima
09:46 < selpahi> .i .ei mi jukpa .i la .ilmen. ka'e ciksi
09:46 < selpahi> coi co'o la .ilmen.
09:46 < Ilmen> coi co'o
09:46 < gleki> lu re da cmima li'u na selbri
09:46 < Ilmen> di'ai jukpa be lo .a'o kukte
09:47 < Ilmen> ma mi ka'e se ciksi
09:47 < gleki> 09:44 < selpahi> .i lo re brabracrida cu barda ! .i ku'i lu'i lo re brabracrida cu cmalu
09:47 < gleki> 09:45 < gleki> selpahi: remei xu
09:47 < gleki> 09:46 < selpahi> ga'a CLL cu re mei .i ku'i na re mei
09:47 < gleki> 09:46 < selpahi> .i re da cmima
09:47 < gleki> 09:46 < gleki> lu re da cmima li'u na selbri
09:48 < gleki> xu lu'i lo re broda cu se cmima re da
09:50  * nuzba @HallowedCrow: @machinighost There are a few conlang Wikis: Interlingua, Interlingue, Volapük, lojban. [http://bit.ly/1JQtk4D]
09:51 < gleki> but no Interlingui, Interlinguo and Interlinguu
09:52 < Ilmen> en: lu'i
09:52 < mensi> lu'i = [LAhE] the set with members; converts another description type to a set of the members. |>>>
09:52 < mensi> officialdata
09:53 < gleki> mi pu djica lo tordu tadji be lo nu cusku lu zo'e noi lo broda cu cmima li'u
09:53 < Ilmen> mi kanpe lo nu lu'i lo re gerku cu se cmima re gerku
09:53 < Ilmen> .e no drata
09:54 < durka42> gleki: ko pilno zo le'au zo'o
09:55 < durka42> jbo:le'au
09:55 < mensi> le'au = [SEI] tcita lo se cusku lo du'u va'o ri zo «le» se smuni lo se lidne poi .
09:55 < mensi> emna
09:56 < durka42> le'au ce'u lo me'au ce'u cu selcmi
09:58 < gleki> In Transfiex Vivaldi group are arguing whether  "Re:" and "Fwd:" should be translated to local languages. Should we translate these mail prefixes for Lojban?
09:58 < gleki> durka42: zo lo'u'i'au la'a
09:59 < durka42> probably we should
09:59 < durka42> rafsi:spuda
09:59 < mensi> zo'oi spu .e zo'oi spud rafsi zo spuda
09:59 < durka42> "Spu:" zo'o zo'o nai ru'e
10:01 < durka42> zo'oi forward nandymau .i zo refmri zasti
10:01 < durka42> ku'i .ai nai sai zo'oi "Re:" cu sinxa lo si'o refmri vau .u'i
10:02 < gleki> je'e
10:02 < gleki> (to spuda toi)
10:02 < gleki> (to fukpi toi)
10:02 < gleki> pei
10:03 < durka42> lo si'o tabno fukpi cu drata ku'i
10:06 < durka42> la'a zo refmri je zo spuda cu xagrai
10:07 < gleki> na krefu sa'u mrilu
10:07 < gleki> i sa'e mrilu fi lo drata
10:07 < durka42> ie
10:07 < durka42> mrilu lo mrilu
10:07 < durka42> mrimri?
10:08 < durka42> mrilu lo se mrilu le'ai
10:08 < gleki> mrilu lo se mrilu
10:09 < gleki> i ie mi pu pilno lu mrilu fi lo drata li'u i ku'i va'o clani
10:09 < durka42> selmrimri => mrimri
10:09 < durka42> dramri
10:09 < durka42> y si datmri
10:10 < gleki> lu tebe'i mi'unai li'u ka'e
10:10 < gleki> to zo bi'u na mapti li'u
10:10 < gleki> durka42: mrilu lo drata
10:10 < gleki> i ku'i na ku
10:10 < gleki> i mrilu lo mintu lo drata
10:11 < Ilmen> .oi mi tatpi lo ka lanli lo cartu pe la nu jansu
10:12 < gleki> zo'o ko seba'i jmina lo tcita lo jufra gi'e ja'ebo co'a surla
10:18 < gleki> i u'i la transifeks co'u akti
10:36 < gleki> lu'i lo selcmi be
10:36 < gleki> lu'o lo gumselcmi be
10:36 < gleki> wth
10:36 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sumti_qualifiers
10:42  * nuzba @uitki: sumti qualifiers - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sumti_qualifiers by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1zMYaaV]
10:49 < selpahi> la nu jansu zo'u pe'i mi co'u ka'e jinga .i la .xorxes. cu me'oi betray mi ja'e lo betri be mi
10:50 < durka42> .a'o na srana lo te ckini be do bei X bei sera'a BPFK vau .u'i
10:51 < durka42> ko na co'u pacna ku'i
10:51 < durka42> ko ja'a co'u tinju'i lo se nupre be X
10:52 < selpahi> xu na ku la danmo ja ma kau pu zi ru'e finti lo valsi pe zoi gy. influence .gy
10:52 < selpahi> .i ma valsi
10:53 < durka42> en: influence
10:53 < mensi> 7 da se tolcri: xlura, vlixlu, alkanse, imperative, kre'ole, pacyxlu, xluzerma'esazri
10:53 < selpahi> ba'a nai bu'o
10:53 < selpahi> .i ia la cirko cu finti se pi'o la gimyzba
10:53 < durka42> ua go'i .iku'i mi tolmo'i
10:54 < selpahi> jbo:ri'anfu
10:54 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
10:54 < selpahi> jbo:ni'anfu
10:54 < mensi> ni'anfu = su'o pagbu be x1 cu rinka su'o pagbu be x2
10:54 < durka42> ie
10:55 < durka42> jungo simlu
10:55 < gleki> zo influ'enza zo'o
10:55 < gleki> en:bi'anfu
10:55 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
10:55 < gleki> en:bianfu
10:55 < mensi> bianfu = x1 is a bat, flying mammal (order Chiroptera) of species x2
10:55 < gleki> ge'e i au da zmiku bastygau
10:56 < selpahi> tu'a lo bi'anfu  .influ'enza cu ni'anfu lo nu'ansa
11:00 < selpahi> ue ru'e lo nu pilno [ð] lo ka bacru me'o .y'y cu na to'e melbi mi
11:01 < selpahi> .i ku'i na fladra sa'e nai ru'e
11:02 < selpahi> niðanfu
11:03 < selpahi> .i ku'i zo tu'a zo'u [tuha]
11:11 < gleki> ca lo cabdei mi pu vimcu la polimer lo glico sutsis ku po'o
11:15 < gleki> {lu'i ce lo broda} is the best I can imagine (with {zo'e} autorestored before {ce})
11:16 < selpahi> .i ku'i lo cmaci selcmi cu ckaji no plixau
11:18 < gleki> lu lo [co'e] je broda li'u na mapti
11:18 < gleki> i lu lo [co'e] jo'u broda li'u cizra
11:18 < gleki> jbo: jo'u
11:18 < mensi> jo'u = [JOI] go ko'e jo'u ko'o broda gi broda fa lo poi'i ge ko'e .e ko'o me ke'a gi ro me ke'a cu me ko'e gi'a me ko'o
11:18 < mensi> |>>> Ilmen
11:19 < gleki> i ku'i  lonu broda jo'u brode cu mo
11:20 < selpahi> no da djuno .i cumki fa lo nu nu me'au lo ka broda jo'u lo ka brode
11:20 < gleki> laa
11:20 < gleki> exp: me lo ka mo e lo ka mo
11:20 < mensi> (CU [me {lo <ka (¹[CU {mo VAU}] [e {CU <COhE (²lo [ka {CU <mo VAU>} KEI] KU²) VAU>}]¹) KEI> KU} MEhU] VAU)
11:21 < durka42> alta: me lo ka mo e lo ka mo
11:21 < mensi> ([FA ZOhE] [CU {<me (¹[lo {<ka (²[FA ZOhE] [CU {mo SF} VAU]²) KEI> SF} KU] [e {lo <(²ka [{FA ZOhE} {CU <mo SF> VAU}] KEI²) SF> KU}]¹) MEhU> SF} VAU])
11:22 < gleki> xm i zo ce'u na se jmina
11:22 < selpahi> #ecucohe
11:22 < durka42> alta: lo me lu e le
11:22 < mensi> ([{FA <lo (¹[me {lu e LIhU} MEhU] SF¹) KU>} {FE <le (¹COhE SF¹) KU>}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
11:23 < gleki> zo lu te makfa
11:23 < durka42> ie
11:23 < durka42> alta: lo ka
11:23 < mensi> ([FA {lo <(¹ka [{FA ZOhE} {CU <COhE SF> VAU}] KEI¹) SF> KU}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
11:23 < durka42> FA CEhU
11:24 < durka42> alta: zo'e noi
11:24 < mensi> ([FA {zo'e <noi (¹[FA ZOhE] [CU {COhE SF} VAU]¹) KUhO>}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
11:24 < durka42> FA KEhA
11:24 < durka42> ci'i'i'izra
11:24 < gleki> i ku'i do pu kanpe ma
11:28 < gleki> go E jo'u O casnu gi ge E e O casnu gi ro me lo casnu cu me E gi'a me O
11:28 < gleki> i mi pu se nandu lo ka tcidu
11:28 < gleki> i cati frili
11:29 < selpahi> go E jo'u O casnu gi casnu fa lo poi'i ge E .e O me ke'a gi ro me ke'a cu me E gi'a me O
11:29 < gleki> zo poi'i ca'o milxe jai nabmi mi
11:29 < selpahi> .i lo me do moi cu frica milxe
11:30 < selpahi> .i lo me do moi cu nibli lo du'u no drata be E jo'u O cu casnu
11:30 < durka42> wait, what have you done to mensi??
11:30 < durka42> camxes: +exp me lo ka mo e lo ka mo
11:30 < camxes> (CU [me {<lo (¹ka [CU {mo VAU}] KEI¹) KU> <e (¹lo [ka {CU <mo VAU>} KEI] KU¹)>} MEhU] VAU)
11:31 < selpahi> Yes, the previous one was wrong. hence #ecucohe
11:31 < durka42> very wrong
11:32 < gleki> only to "exp:"
11:33 < durka42> which change introduced this bug
11:33 < gleki> no idea
11:33 < gleki> strange that alta doesnt have it
11:34 < selpahi> How about a new minimal parser that only does one thing instead of all the things. #selpatufa
11:34 < durka42> that'd be good
11:34 < gleki> that's ilmentufa repo
11:34 < durka42> but which is the one thing?
11:34 < durka42> isn't "exp:" running from the ilmentufa repo?
11:35 < durka42> .oi mi co'u sai pilno la'oi "exp:" jecu ca'o pilno la'oi "camxes: +exp"
11:35 < gleki> idk, check ilmentufa, not glekitufa, i cant right now
11:35 < gleki> i can only wwrite down a new issue regarding cmevla/brivla merge
11:36 < selpahi> I've been wanting a parser that kills off all the unused cmavo and selma'o and uses the new connectives.
11:36 < selpahi> Basically it would be a prebankle parser
11:37 < gleki> https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/issues/35
11:38 < gleki> https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/issues/35
11:38 < gleki> .title
11:38 < phenny> gleki: cmevla/brivla merge workarounds · Issue #35 · lagleki/glekitufa · GitHub
11:38 < durka42> selpahi: yesss
11:38 < selpahi> va'o ku lu .lojban. mo li'u na ka'e cmene su'o da
11:38 < durka42> mi se xanri la'oi "camxes: +cktj"
11:39 < selpahi> ie
11:39 < selpahi> .i ru ji'a plixau da'i
11:40 < durka42> do pilno lo me do moi be lo smuni be zo ri vau xu
11:40 < durka42> si si si ru vau xu
11:40 < selpahi> go'i
11:41 < durka42> zanfu'a fa lo nu mi puzi tcidu lo srana be ri
11:41 < selpahi> .i ia mi finti pu za lo masti be li so'i .i su'o roi ciksi do'e la .mambyl. .i ku'i la'a za'o na misno
11:41 < selpahi> .i mi sivni ra'u pilno ca lo nu tavla mi fa mi
11:43 < gleki> ma smuni
11:43 < durka42> ta'o la kibjasyselkei zo'u .ei sai minde da
11:43 < durka42> ba zi kelka'u cenba
11:43 < gleki> durka42: simply rollback exp. to the last ilmen's commit
11:43 < durka42> lo na kelci bi'ai na jinga
11:43 < durka42> gleki: lojban/ilmentufa or another fork?
11:43 < selpahi> mi ca'o minde
11:44 < durka42> .i'e
11:44 < gleki> lo na kelci cu jinga fo lo drata
11:44 < selpahi> .i ku'i pe'i no plixau ka'e jalge .P
11:44 < gleki> durka42: no, ilmen's
11:44 < durka42> sa'u mi viska la'oi "Peru	Not received" noi jungau mi fa lo mi proga
11:44 < selpahi> ue
11:44 < gleki> durka42: https://github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/ consult ilmen whether this repo should be shut down and moved to lojban coders' group
11:45 < durka42> selpahi: mi finti lo te pixra be la'o .pix. http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~aburka/tmp/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-06%20at%202.45.01%20PM.png .pix.
11:45 < durka42> gleki: it's already forked into the lojban coders' group
11:45 < durka42> but the last commit is me la .ilmen moi
11:45 < gleki> i suppose i left exp. somwehere in between fixing altatufa's ideology bugs and the previous state of affairs
11:45 < selpahi> je'e
11:48 < durka42> nau cusku zo'oi completed
11:50 < selpahi> mi pu benji lo notci do
11:51 < durka42> ua jetnu
11:51 < gleki> exp: lo ka mo e lo ka mo
11:51 < mensi> ([{lo <ka (¹CU [mo VAU]¹) KEI> KU} {e <lo (¹ka [CU {mo VAU}] KEI¹) KU>}] VAU)
11:51 < durka42> xagmau
11:51 < gleki> durka42: pre-gleki's state restored both in ilmentufa and in glekitufa repos
11:51 < gleki> but not in lojban group
11:52 < gleki> ke'u consult ilmen
11:53 < durka42> je'e
11:53 < snanu> la sutsis simlu lo ka sutra zmadu canau
11:54 < durka42> selpahi: mi spuda
11:56 < gleki> snanu: o'u
12:18 < snanu> I heard there was a spreadsheet with phrases that needed translation before uploading to tatoeba. I would like to try.
12:20 < gocti> Not exactly translation, but picking out mistakes and nonstandard use
12:20 < gocti> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Md0pojdcO3EVf3LQPHXFB7uOThNvTWszkWd5T4YhvKs/edit?pli=1#gid=0
12:20 < snanu> ki'e
12:36 < snanu> mi pu sanji lo gredile poi ke'a te ciska loi xe fanva
12:43 < Ilmen> [20:30:21] <selpahi> .i lo me do moi cu nibli lo du'u no drata be E jo'u O cu casnu
12:43 < Ilmen> -- je'u no da mintu E jo'u O
12:43 < Ilmen> va'o lo nu pavmei zilkancu
12:43 < selpahi> ie
14:17  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: @Block_N_Load @BlockNLoad If you guys speak Lojban I'm in. [http://bit.ly/1IhpjEd]
15:17 < Taun> shoyy-uh
16:25 < PrincessGerku> lo mi gerku cu sipna.
16:31 < durka42> xu do me la noltruti'u .bekas.
16:53 < PrincessGerku> je'u
16:55 < isd> .i coi rodo
16:58 < durka42> coi la .izd.
16:58 < isd> .i do mo
17:07 < durka42> mi gunka lo romoi co kulcitsi se bilga
18:27  * nuzba @uitki: PAGE MISE À JOUR :  lojban music - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lojban_music par Guskant [http://bit.ly/1c7TVeW]
21:22 < pilno> coi .i mi cnino lo jbobau ku
21:30 < pilno> do tolylau vi
21:35 < pilno> mi djica lo cilre ku
21:38 < gocti> coi cnino
21:38 < gocti> .i ta'e ku ca lo ca se tcika cu cando fa lo jbogu'e
21:41 < pilno> thanks for responding, unfortunately I don't know all that vocabulary/grammar yet
21:41 < gocti> "usually, Lojbandia is quiet at this time"
21:42 < gocti> .i lo bemro co'a sipna .i ca bo lo ropno cu ra'u za'o sipna
21:43 < gocti> "North America is going to sleep while Europe is still mostly asleep"
21:44 < pilno> mi jimpe
21:46 < gocti> ni'o mi zi cliva .i co'o do
21:46 < gocti> .i .a'o do se pluka tu'a lo jbobau
21:48 < pilno> jo'a
21:49 < pilno> lo mi penmi do ku pluka mi
21:52 < pilno> "it's nice to meet you" (?)
21:53 < ldlework> .i lo bemro cu pacna lo nu co'a sipna zo'o uinai
21:54 < ldlework> pilno: its ungrammatical
21:54 < ldlework> You're missing a nu - kei
21:54 < ldlework> inside your lo - ku
21:55 < pilno> ki'e do
21:55 < ldlework> pilno: the only thing that can go inside of lo - ku is a selbri term
21:55 < ldlework> well, unless you're using like "lo mi pendo ku" whch is a shorthand for "lo pendo ku pe mi"
21:55 < ldlework> but the general rule is [lo <SELBRI> ku]
21:57 < pilno> "mi penmi do" doesn't count as a selbri?
21:58 < ldlework> no
21:58 < ldlework> that's a bridi
21:58 < ldlework> x1 SELBRI x2 x3 x4 x5
21:58 < ldlework> ^ bridi
21:58 < ldlework> if you want to turn a bridi into a selbri, you can use something from the NU family, like nu or du'u
21:59 < ldlework> {[mi] <penmi> [do]}
21:59 < pilno> oh, right
21:59 < ldlework> <nu {[mi] <penmi> [do]} kei>
21:59 < ldlework> [lo <nu {[mi] <penmi> [do]} kei> ku]
21:59 < ldlework> { = bridi, < = selbri, [ = sumti
22:00 < pilno> yes, that makes sense, ke'i do
22:00 < pilno> *ki'e
22:02 < ldlework> pilno: if you can keep in your head the ways the three term types are to be nested, you can increase your lojban consistency a lot
22:02 < ldlework> its really the first skill.
22:02 < ldlework> if you ever want to play the marking game, I'd be happy to
22:03 < pilno> it's all very new to me, I just started looking at it yesterday, but having a computer science background is helping. I suspect I'm not the only one
22:04 < ldlework> definitely not. if you know how to call a function, you know how to speak lojban
22:04 < ldlework> its an exaggeration, but its true for the core
22:05 < ldlework> x1 SELBRI x2 x3 x4 x5    ~=   SELBRI(x1, x2, x3, x4, x5)
22:06 < ldlework> pilno: you just started with lojban yesterday?
22:07 < pilno> Yeah. An old roommate who studied linguistics was telling me about lojban. I like languages, but I'm not a linguist, or anything. It's like a natural langauge dialect of Lisp, almost
22:08 < pilno> natural as opposed to computational, anyway
22:08 < pilno> I should have said constructed
22:15 < ldlework> pilno: I was never interested in lingusitics either
22:15 < ldlework> Still not very much. Lojban made me pretty interested in language philosophy tho.
22:18 < ldlework> pilno: if you wanna try roleplaying again just say so
22:21 < pilno> how do you express "too" as an adverb?
22:21 < pilno> I mean adjective
22:21 < pilno> well, whatever part of speech it is
22:21 < pilno> e.g. "too poor"
22:22 < pilno> mi "too" pindi lo jbobau ku
22:31 < durka42> coi
22:32 < durka42> nau lo mi kibjasyselkei proga cu xagmau .i co'a pilno la'oi curses
22:32 < durka42> http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~aburka/tmp/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-07%20at%201.31.55%20AM.png
22:34 < durka42> pilno: that's {dukse}
22:37 < durka42> ozgu: ko jansu .u'i
22:37 < durka42> do po'o jai sarcu
22:38 < pilno> so in my case, would you just make a tanru?
22:39 < pilno> mi dukse pindi lo jbobau ku
22:40 < durka42> I would say {mi dukse co pindi lo jbobau} or {mi dukse lo ka pindi lo jbobau}
22:40 < durka42> the second one is "simpler" (even though it has more words) because it doesn't use a tanru
22:41 < durka42> but they mean the same
22:41 < pilno> thanks
23:00 < durka42> mensi: doi ozgu ko jaskei .e'u
23:00 < mensi> durka42: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.ozgu.gy. di'a cusku da
23:00 < durka42> mensi: doi ozgu upgrading my server to debian 8 soon. expect downtime :p
23:00 < mensi> durka42: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.ozgu.gy. di'a cusku da
23:21 < gleki> actually "too" is {du'eva'e}
23:35 < durka42> what's the difference
23:35 < durka42> ju'o {dukse} is simpler for a nintadni
23:39 < gleki> the difference is in focus
23:39 < gleki> "too" is an adverb
23:40 < gleki> so actually i wish there were a tag paralleling {va'e}
23:40 < gleki> ta'o I still have 6 sutsises left with polymer
23:41 < gleki> an ugly manual task of editing .html files
--- Day changed Thu May 07 2015
00:56 < gleki> so that's all, polymer is in history.
01:42 < pilno> coi
01:42 < pilno> hello everyone
01:51 < ozgu> coi pilno
01:51 < mensi> ozgu: cu'u la'o gy.durka42.gy.: ko jaskei .e'u | 2015-05-07T06:00:23.781Z
01:51 < mensi> ozgu: cu'u la'o gy.durka42.gy.: upgrading my server to debian 8 soon. expect downtime :p | 2015-05-07T06:00:35.
01:51 < mensi> 580Z
01:51 < ozgu> je'e
01:59 < ozgu>  /topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emCDL4aocDE
02:16 < lablanu> How to say "You should run" and "You must run"?
02:18 < lablanu> To me, "should" and "must" are different
02:18 < ozgu> I would use use .e'ende and bilga
02:19 < lablanu> en: e'ende
02:19 < mensi> e'ende = x1 exhorts/encourages x2 to do/be x3 |>>> See also .e'e |>>> Ilmen
02:23 < lablanu> what is that {nde} after {e'e}?
02:23 < ozgu> it's a jbofuvi-rafsi for minde
02:24 < ozgu> cf .aidji, si'abzu, mu'umgu
02:24 < ozgu> .ozgu :p
02:25 < ozgu> (well, ok zgu is a bit different as zgu is an actual rafsi)
02:25 < lablanu> .a'usai
02:26 < ozgu> (and dji)
02:29 < lablanu> I would use {e'u} for "should"
02:29 < lablanu> {e'u do bajra}
02:30 < lablanu> How to say "start running"?
02:43 < gleki> LIVLABOT: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/ The new main page for Muplis and sutsises
02:43 < pilno_> hi everyone
02:44 < gleki> co'a bajra = start running
02:44 < pilno_> ma bajra
02:44 < pilno_> ?
02:45 < gleki> mupli jufra
02:46 < pilno_> do you need an "?" in lojban ?
02:47 < gleki> you dont but you still may add for stylistic purposes
02:49 < pilno_> how do you say "i dont have anything to say" in lojban
02:49 < pilno_> ?
02:52 < gleki> personally i would say something like {mi ka'e cusku no notci} = "I can say no message"
02:55  * sko`opyjde no da ka'e se cusku mi
02:55 < sko`opyjde> although even that is a bit off, with the {ka'e}
02:55 < sko`opyjde> {no da zo'u mi kakne lo ka cusku da}
02:56 < b_jonas> ok, I've had enough of this
02:57 < pilno_> "ka'e cusku" is a tanru ?
02:57 < sko`opyjde> {ka'e} is a tag, like {pu}
02:57 < pilno_> how do you say "x1 is x2"
02:57 < pilno_> ?
02:58 < pilno_> like a plumber is a person
02:58 < gleki> in most cases "is" is embedded into the verb. E.g. "this is a cat" is {ti mlatu}
02:59 < gleki> la plamber cu prenu
02:59 < gleki> In Lojban there are no nouns. You make them out of verbs by adding {lo} in front of them
02:59 < gleki> sazri - to drive
02:59 < gleki> lo sazri - driver/drivers
02:59 < pilno_> lo sazri - driver
02:59 < b_jonas> gleki: am I permitted to just replace the web chat links in the wiki with straight links to http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23lojban%2C%23ckule and https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#lojban,#ckule instead of links to the wiki plugin special page please?
03:00 < b_jonas> gleki: I'm an admin, I'm allowed to edit the Mediawiki: namespace directly, so I can do it.
03:00 < gleki> b_jonas: if you think that it will work out please do
03:00 < b_jonas> ok, I'll replace them (later, not right now)
03:00 < b_jonas> thanks
03:00 < gleki> {prenu} - to be a person, is a person
03:00 < gleki> so it's already embedded there
03:00 < b_jonas> that will always prompt everyone for a nick to use
03:01 < b_jonas> which I think is a feature
03:01 < b_jonas> see
03:01 < pilno__> xe'e'e'e
03:01 < pilno_> so if i have two nouns that i made using "lo" and "ku" , how do i say : noun1 is noun2 ?
03:02 < gleki> b_jonas: no idea. i thought something in the php needed to be changed to enable kiwiirc
03:02 < sko`opyjde> {x1 du x2} or {x1 mintu x2}, but it's considered un-lojbanic
03:02 < b_jonas> gleki: no, they're just straight links to another page. you don't need to embed them into the wiki. embedding it is a bad idea anyway.
03:02 < b_jonas> (embedding as in a frame)
03:02 < gleki> pilno_: pls ask questions in the form of precise sentences to translate. because English is very often use the same word for different meanings.
03:03 < b_jonas> gleki: he did. how do you say "plumbers are persons"?
03:03 < pilno_> lo plamber cu prenu
03:04 < pilno_> xu go'i
03:04 < pilno_> ?
03:04 < gleki> Not sure how we say "plumber". I thought la pilno used it as a name
03:04 < b_jonas> perhaps {ro jactubnu cikre cu prenu} I guess
03:04 < gleki> thus {la plamber}
03:04 < gleki> ie {tubnu cikre} is what i wanted
03:05 < gleki> {lo tubnu cikre cu prenu}
03:05 < b_jonas> but if it's about Mario specifically then {la marioz prenu}
03:06 < sko`opyjde> me'ei .ol. rait. zo'u pa sai moi lo se zukte be BPFK poi cnino vau fa tu'a lo brivla jo'u cmevla pavmeigau
03:08 < b_jonas> gleki: I'd say if it doesn't work out you can just revert it, but as there are copies in dozens of translated versions of the skin, I'll have to do lots of edits. probably I'll have to factor the link destination to a template if it's not yet so we can change it later.
03:08 < gleki> mi djica lo nu lo mi gentufa cu kakne lo ka zmiku cikre lo simsa be lu la marioz prenu li'u i cupre da'i lu la mari'oz cu prenu li'u
03:08 < b_jonas> (like, switch the default between qwebirc and kiwi)
03:13 < sko`opyjde> gleki: lo uitki zo'u .ai gasnu lo nu lo simsa be la'au Lo Lojbo Nuzba li'u cu ralpapri .i xu fapro lo nu mi co'a .admine
03:15 < gleki> sko`opyjde: mi pu so'iva'e djica lo nu da finti lo nuzba papri i e'asai i ku'i e'u na daspo lo ca papri i sa'u zbasu lo cnino papri i babo m'aa selbastygau
03:16 < sko`opyjde> je'e
03:18 < gleki> sko`opyjde: i mu'a mi na se pluka lo nu lo nuzba papri cu glico
03:18 < gleki> i do djuno lo du'u lo ralju papri ka'e se bangu lo vrici i li'a mi djica lo nu lo nuzba papri cu simsa i e'i fanva i ku'i sarcu
03:19 < sko`opyjde> lo se .aidji be mi zo'u mintu
03:19 < sko`opyjde> .i za'o na ro va'e co birti lo du'u ma kau matrai lo ro tadji
03:20 < sko`opyjde> .i je .ei fau lo nu zbasu lo papri cu cilre lo jai se nitcu pe la smedjauitki
03:49 < sko`opyjde> si'au lo uitki co'a spofu
03:49 < sko`opyjde> HTTP Error 504: Gateway Timeout
03:50 < gocti> (to .oi ru'e la'a va'o ku la gleki na spuda kakne .i mintu selfu toi)
03:52  * nuzba @panabsent: losi'o lo munje cu zasti cu selsne .i ku'i lo munje cu zasti .i fi lesi'o go'i mi na se bitygau #lojban [http://bit.ly/1IR2IPp]
03:54 < gocti> .i mo'u spofu ju'i nai
03:56 < gleki> fadni
04:04 < gocti> xu cumki fa lo nu pilno lo uitki se cau tu'a la jukni
04:08 < gocti> xu la vrici ca mulno co spofu
04:08 < gleki_> na mulno
04:08 < gleki_> i masno dukse
04:10 < gocti> ma poi drata la livla cu rinka .i xu djuno
04:10 < gleki_> lo nu ningau lo sazycimde cu lakne
04:10 < gocti> ua
04:10 < gleki> uanai i sarcu falonu instali lo uitki gi'e importe lo SQL datni
04:10 < gocti> oi dai
04:10 < gleki> to do pu kucli lo nu xukau cumki toi
04:14 < gocti> y
04:14 < gocti> ba'e ca co'a jimpe
04:15 < gleki> le uitki di'a akti
04:16 < gocti> ui
04:18 < gocti> si xu ja'a go'i
04:20 < gocti> .i va'o lo me mi moi za'o spofu
04:20 < gocti> .i lo cpacu nu cpedu cu se jalge tu'a li'ai 504 .i lo catke nu cpedu zo'u li'ai 408
04:20 < gocti> .i no'e vajni .i zukte lo se djica ca lo drata
04:48  * nuzba @uitki: Welcome!/en - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!/en by Gleki - /* Dictionaries */ [http://bit.ly/1DTSJ53]
04:52  * nuzba @uitki: LLG Officers - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Officers by Mukti - Secretary/Treasurer elected [http://bit.ly/1DTT2g5]
04:53 < gleki> la mukti cu jmina lo nuzba be vo'a
04:54 <@Broca> Fantastic news!
04:54 <@Broca> rlpowell: congratulations on your newly acquired freedom!
04:55 < gleki> but that's treasurer, not web master
04:57 <@Broca> Secretary *and* treasurer.
04:57 < gleki> but not web master
04:57 < gleki> btw how do we say "master"?
04:57 < gleki> .w master
04:57 < phenny> master — noun: 1. Someone who has control over something or someone, 2. The owner of an animal or slave — adjective: 1. Masterful, 2. Main, principal or predominant
04:57 <@Broca> Throughout the 2000s, most of the actual work in the Board was done by Robin.
04:57 < gleki> jetnu
04:57 < gleki> i lo sazri
07:13 < skari> coi . What would be a good, general word for "drug dealer"? I searched JVS and it gave me words like {maltcu}, {micyxu'i} and {xumsne} for "drug", but those are too specific.
07:15 < skari> I need something like "x1 makes x2 be non-sober"
07:16 < gleki> but that's not a dealer
07:16 < gleki> dealer is who spreads
07:16 <@xalbo> A dealer vecnu. That's the easy part.
07:17 < skari> I need the type of dealer.
07:18 < b_jonas> could {zerxukmi} mean drug (the illegal sort)?
07:18 <@xalbo> So, I guess the question is, do you want to include anyone who sells mind-altering agents (including bartenders), or do you want to limit it to those who sell illegal ones?
07:18 < skari> Right now I've got {snexumve'u}, "hallucinogen-dealer"
07:18 < gleki> technically it's all {bilma} "x1 makes x2 be non-sober" is  {bilmygau} although something more specific is needed
07:19 < skari> Just anyone who sells mind-altering agents will do.
07:19 < b_jonas> there's also {marna} which is more specific
07:19 <@xalbo> {zerxukmi} isn't bad at all for illegal drugs. OTOH, it could also include any other controlled substances (poisons, maybe explosives, etc)
07:19 < b_jonas> explosives?
07:20 < gleki> marna can be used not as a drug
07:20 < b_jonas> hmm yes... maybe it could be explosives
07:20 < skari> Yup. I just want mind-alteration
07:20 <@xalbo> Are not explosives chemicals that are illegal for the general public to own?
07:20 <@xalbo> (I honestly don't know the laws regarding that.)
07:21 < b_jonas> dunno, where?
07:21 < skari> en: bilma
07:21 < mensi> bilma = x1 is ill/sick/diseased with symptoms x2 from disease x3. |>>> See also kanro, mikce, spita, senci, kafke, binra.
07:21 < mensi>  |>>> officialdata
07:22 < skari> Drugs don't always make people sick
07:23 <@xalbo> Debatably, any impairment would se bilma. Though bilma3 makes it seem wrong.
07:23 < gleki> then it's just food
07:24 < gleki> oh okay audio drugs are not food
07:26 < Ilmen> spofu?
07:27 < skari> "alter", not break. {menga'i}
07:28 < gleki> cenba, not galfi
07:29 < skari> hmm, what does "non-resultative" mean?
07:30 < gleki> jb:galfi
07:30 < mensi> galfi = galfi — x1(entity)  transforms, modifies, changes  x2(entity)  into  x3(entity)
07:30 < mensi> :lo galfi — modifier, transformer.
07:30 < mensi> :le mamta pu galfi lo rectu ce lo nanba lo pluka snuji — Mother turned the meat and the bread into lovely sandwiches.
07:30 < mensi> :ju'o le ninmu ba galfi la Kevin lo speni be vo'a — I'm sure she will make Kevin her spouse.
07:30 < mensi> :lo lenku brife pu galfi lo pezli lo bunre — The cold wind turned the leaves brown.
07:30 < mensi> :Comment: binxo describes that entity turns into another entity, galfi is to change one entity into another one. cenba
07:30 < mensi> describes how entity changes its state while remaining the same entity, stika is to make entity change its state.
07:30 < mensi> :Related words: stika, binxo, cenba, zasni
07:30 <@xalbo> "non-resultative" means that {cenba} doesn't say what the final state is, only that it's being changed. Whereas {galfi} says the final state.
07:31 < skari> ooh
07:32 < skari> in that case, {mencne}?
07:33 < ozgu> xalbo: but {stika} is allegedly casual, but it does not mention any final state
07:33 < mensi> ozgu: cu'u la'o gy.durka42.gy.: upgrading my server to debian 8 soon. expect downtime :p | 2015-05-07T06:00:35.
07:33 < mensi> 580Z
07:34 < gleki> stika is to make entity change its state.
07:37 < gleki> basically cnegau due to misusage
07:41 <@xalbo> ozgu: Yes, whence "non-resultative, causal change" in the notes.
07:42 <@xalbo> "(non-)causal" is whether what's causing the change is in there, "(non-)resultative" is whether the final state is in there. In theory, all four versions exist. I always get them all mixed up in my head.
07:43 < gleki> binxo:galfi::cenba:stika
08:06 < ozgu> and binxo:cenba::galfi:stika then
08:06 < ozgu> xalbo: thanks
08:07 < pilno> coi rodo
08:07 < ozgu> coi pilno
08:07 < pilno> .i mi'e la .ilus.
08:07 < ozgu> coi .ilus.
08:07 < pilno> .i pu paroi klama ti
08:08 < ozgu> fi'i re re'u vitke
08:09 < pilno> .i ku'i ba bo mi tolcando
08:10 < ozgu> zukcfu xu
08:11 < ozgu> .e'u do cuxna lo cmene gi'e co'a selcme ri .i ro zasni vitke cu se cmene zo pilno .i nandu ma'a fa lo nu djuno lo du'u ma kau mo kau
08:15 < pilno> je'e
08:15 < pilno> .i ta'i ma mi cuxna lo mi cmene
08:16 < ozgu> .i ko ciska zoi zoi /nick lojaisedjicabedo zoi gi'e benji
08:16 < ozgu> .i ko'oi basygau zo'oi lojaisedjicabedo lo jai se djica be do
08:18 < pilno> je'e
08:19 < durka42> coi
08:19 < ozgu> coi .urka
08:19 < ozgu> coi .ilus.
08:19 < ozgu> ŭi mi ba na tolmo'i lo du'u zo .ilus. cmene do
08:20 < ozgu> .i do ma xabju ja zvati doi .ilus.
08:21 < durka42> mi'e .ansu .elci
08:21 < ozgu> jo'a
08:21 < ilus> mi zvati je xabju la .tai,uan.
08:21 < durka42> ta'o sei ci'izra mu'i ma do jai gau marbi la stuna jenai la .enkoraj.
08:22 < ozgu> la .tai'uan. ŭe ŭa
08:22 < durka42> ua coi gugdetuve prenu
08:23 < durka42> zo taiuan jenai zo tai'uan .u'i
08:23 < ozgu> ta'o nai ma mukti lo nu do na klama la .ankorai
08:23 < vlaturgenjde> y ku'i .ei mi na co'e
08:23 < ozgu> .u'i
08:23 < ozgu> jdegau ko'oi iu
08:23 < durka42> mi pu se xanri lo nu blobei .i ku'i do nau ka'e fanta
08:23 < gocti> lo karmlisna na kakne co se lidne me'o .y'y bu
08:23 < ozgu> mi se cinri lo du'u xo kau da tcidu lo se ciska be mi
08:24 < gocti> ia za'u so'u da lurki
08:24 < ozgu> .i ku'i lo donlo'i pu stali
08:24 < ozgu> ŭa
08:25 < ozgu> zo .tu'uitr. na valsi xu
08:25 < gocti> zo .tu'itr. ja zo .tuuitr.
08:25 < durka42> lo bloti pu stali fau lo nu lo jenmi cu se ganzu
08:25 < durka42> mu'i ma mi jungau do vau .u'i
08:25 < ozgu> .i zo .taiuan. mlerai ku'i ju'o
08:25 < gocti> .i zo'oi tu'uitr jbovla na ku
08:25 < gocti> ie
08:25 < ozgu> mu'i lo nu do mi nelci
08:25 < gocti> ku'i xu la xajmi censa cu curmi
08:26 < gocti> camxes: taiuan
08:26 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "t" found.
08:26 < ozgu> tikpa
08:26 < durka42> ue
08:26 < durka42> camxes: +exp taiuan
08:26 < camxes> (CU [taiuan VAU])
08:26 < ozgu> tikpa nai
08:26 < durka42> ei ningau la'a
08:26 < gocti> .ei ja'ai
08:26 < ozgu> ze'a ma do lojbo tadni doi la .ilus.
08:27 < ozgu> xu zo loglo cipra gismu
08:27 < ozgu> ta'o .y
08:27 < ozgu> ie
08:27 < ozgu> la .selp. cu mu'umgu
08:27 < ozgu> jetmlu co du'u catni gismu
08:28 < gocti> so'e cipra gismu cu simlu co catni
08:28 < ilus> .i masti li re
08:28 < ozgu> zo gumri poo nai sai
08:29 < ozgu> do simlu lo ka sutra lo ka cilre .i ma velcli gi'e se pilno do
08:29 < ozgu> .a'u
08:30 < ilus> .i ku'i mi ca na sutra lonu tcidu lo lbobau jufra
08:31 < gocti> ji'i ro se cusku be do cu gendra ku'i .i .o'a dai
08:31 < ozgu> go'i vau .u'e
08:31 < durka42> xu sampre zo'o
08:33 < ozgu> zo'o nai xu do samplaseji
08:34 < ozgu> to sampla se jibri toi
08:36 < ilus> mi na go'i  .i ku'i mi ra tadni
08:37 < ilus> .i mi te balcu'e
08:39 < gocti> .u'e xa'o pilno lo sumti stura pe zo balcu'e je poi su'o jbopre cu pacna ja djica tu'a ke'a
08:40 < durka42> en:ckule
08:40 < mensi> ckule = x1 is school/institute/academy at x2 teaching subject(s) x3 to audien./commun. x4 operated by x5.
08:40 < durka42> en:balcu'e
08:40 < mensi> balcu'e [< banli ckule ≈ Great school] = c1 is a university at c2 teaching subject(s) c3 to audience/community c4
08:40 < mensi> operated by c5.
08:40 < durka42> ua\
08:40 < ozgu> xu lo selcu'e cu mabla ma'i do
08:40 < durka42> ma mukti fi lo cnegau djica
08:40 < durka42> ua
08:40 < durka42> ie
08:41 < durka42> lo remoi tersu'i cu mabla je srana zo bu'u po'o
08:41 < gocti> mi jinvi no tsali pe le re moi
08:41 < ozgu> si'a
08:41 < gocti> .i ie va'o lo nu pa re'u finti zo'u na sai gasnu lo nu pagbu
08:41 < gocti> vau da'i
08:41 < gocti> si vau da'i
08:42 < durka42> zo .ukle zo'u ka ce'u ckule zi'o ce'u ce'u ce'u
08:42 < gocti> mi pu se xanri lo du'u sfukle
08:42 < durka42> uanai
08:43 < ozgu> ki'a doi sfubu
08:43 < gocti> sufti
08:43 < ozgu> ki'a bu'o cu'i
08:43 < durka42> vlaste: sfukle
08:43 < vlaste> sfulei (components) = sufti klesi ≈ hoof class
08:44 < gocti> y .u'u nunsnu daspo
08:45 < ozgu> je'e konteksto
08:48 < gocti> ta'o xu su'o do ca lo prula'i jeftu cu ganse da pe la selckiku
08:49 < ozgu> na go'i
08:49 < ozgu> smaji mi fa la .skik.
08:55 < ozgu> li'a zo gaspo cipra
08:58 < ilus> .i xu lo drata gugdetuve bo prenu zvati ti.
08:58 < ilus> *xu lo drata gugdetuve bo prenu cu zvati ti
08:59 < gleki> la'a xamgu da'i falonu jmina lo judri be lo drata proga la'e zoi net http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/ net
08:59 < ozgu> .i mi na satci morji doi la .ilus. .i mi ca sanji no da
08:59 < gleki> la ry prije cu zvati lo xonkon i ku'i darno la'a
09:00 < gleki> sa'ai la xonkon le'ai
09:01 < ozgu> .i .a'u ma ni darno xy fa ty
09:01 < ilus> je'e
09:02 < ilus> .i o'a mi pamoi vau zo'o
09:02 < gleki> i cinri fa lo nu fa io la ilus cu nintadni gi'e ku'i ue so'eva'e drani tavla
09:14  * nuzba @cogas_uasanbon: ロジバンの文章とか音声とかってどこかに転がってないですか？ — 個人の作品のサイトですが、http://photon.freeshell.org/ とか、http://mw.lojban.org/papri/%E5%AD%A... http://ask.fm/a/c5k0in0i [http://bit.ly/1GRmIg6]
09:15 < ilus> je'e ki'e
09:22 < ilus> .i .ei mi cliva
09:22 < ilus> co'o
09:22 < TitsMcGerku> co'o
11:19 < selpahi> ~2000 of 12000 (?) sentences reviewed
11:20 < selpahi> xu sorenono mei
11:26 < durka42> so mei ni
11:26 < durka42> I'm trying to figure out how to compile Level 0 like gleki asked
11:26 < durka42> it is rather confusing
11:27 < selpahi> Aren't those the same as L4B and la lojban mo ?
11:27 < gleki> selpahi: 9000 i lo drata cu se jorne no jufra jonai lo na glico
11:28 < gleki> durka42: you mean nick's instructions?
11:28 < durka42> ZMADU LI SOKIhO
11:28 < durka42> the brochure is "la lojban mo"
11:28 < selpahi> je'e .i mi kucli lo du'u xu kau lo jufra ba lo nu krefu se jmina fi la mupli cu za'o se ponse lo pu ponse
11:29 < gleki> if docbook is confusing then maybe adapt it.
11:29 < durka42> yes, and L4B
11:29 < durka42> gleki: sure, once I get it to work :)
11:29 < durka42> doing it on linux should be easier than the Cygwin stuff described by nick
11:29 < gleki> I remember converting L4B from latex to mediawiki format. in thousands of iterations there is no more L4B but CC.
11:29 < durka42> heh
11:30 < gleki> durka42: maybe stick to how CLL is done
11:30 < durka42> meh, CLL is its own idiosyncratic mess. but maybe :)
11:31 < gleki> Indeed L4B is a formatting mess. I edited and edited and then i started editing content, not just formatting. as for La lojban mo i also imported it into the wiki and again i abandoned that project because too much to fix.
11:33 < gleki> huh, still there http://mw.lojban.org/papri/stub:_La_Lojban_cu_mo_alpha_0.0.1
11:33 < gleki> la rabin.lis.pau,el.
11:34 < gleki> oh. my. god.
11:35 < selpahi> lo do cevni cu mo
11:35 < gleki> la'a na kakne lo ka cikre la'e lu la lojban mo li'u
11:36 < selpahi> "The first speakers of Lojban have a unique opportunity. They are the history-makers who will shape the flavor of the first totally new language to achieve broad speakability. Their ideas will be most influential in setting the patterns of usage that others will learn from. Their experiences will teach things about language that have never before b
11:36 < selpahi> een learned -- or learnable." -- What is Lojban
11:37 < gleki> durka42: if there are any templates for Prince or Docbook of how books and especially textbooks should be formatted it's better to just learn them and i will manually adapt Level0 to it. it's really a formatting mess.
11:37 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 146 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 143 normal]
11:39 < durka42> well I don't know those standard formats either
11:39 < gleki> im in zugzwang. The only thing i can do in Lojban these days is only technical work like fixing apps or textbooks but not learn anything new.
11:39 < gleki> en:zugzwang
11:40 < durka42> la .zugz. xu .u'i
11:41 < gleki> wang means "king" in Chinese so yes, King Zugz.
11:41 < gleki> i uenai la vrici cu fadni co'e
11:41 < gleki> mensi: 
11:41 < gleki> en:zugzwang
11:41 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:41 < gleki> .w zugzwang
11:41 < phenny> zugzwang — noun: 1. (chess) A situation in which a player is forced to make a disadvantageous move, 2. in figurative uses
11:42 < gleki> .w zugzwang
11:42 < phenny> zugzwang — noun: 1. (chess) A situation in which a player is forced to make a disadvantageous move, 2. in figurative uses
11:42 < gleki>  2. in figurative uses cu mo
11:45 < durka42> lol that's all it says for the second definition
11:45 < durka42> couldn't be more vague
11:49 < gleki> durka42: basically i need standards for examples with translations with glossings (in three lines), titles of chapters/subchapters, style of inline lojban words, their translations. CC has them but you can invent your own. In fact CC in its preface describes them.
11:54 < gleki> selpahi: ta'o lo jufra poi 2000mei cu banli io jai jalge
11:55 < gleki> i vajni mutce i mi xebni lo smuske klina iacu'i bangu i la arikas okrent e la borxes pu jai gau jimpe fai lo munje lo du'u lo tai bangu na ka'e zasti
13:01 <@rlpowell> 07-04:54 <@      Broca> rlpowell: congratulations on your newly acquired freedom! -- Thank you!  It feels *wooooonderful*.
13:02 <@rlpowell> Broca: Webmaster by itself I don't mind so much; it was webmaster + responsible for all new ideas and content that I minded.
13:02 <@rlpowell> Just keeping the servers running is fine.
13:05 < snanu> For the tatoeba spreadsheet, we are looking for translations that are preferably simple rather than the most accurate translations?
13:06 < snanu> And what is a native check? I have not heard of this in Wave lessons or the CLL
13:13 < selpahi> We are not picking out sentences, we are annotating every sentence there is (you can see the different tags if you look at the column names).
13:14 < selpahi> The point is to increase the quality of the Lojban Tatoeba corpus, as well as to be able to search for specific kinds of sentences (e.g. simple ones, especially good ones, etc)
13:15 <@rlpowell> So this won't start until tomorrow, but gleki's been noticing 04:00 Pacific outages quite regularly, so I moved a possible culprit cron to 13:00 (and another to 15:00, which *will* run today), i.e. 15 minutes ago.
13:15 <@rlpowell> So if people want to keep an eye out around that time..
13:17  * nuzba @lojytan_bot: はじめてのロジバン(http://w.livedoor.jp/hajiloji/d/)を作っています。今までにはないゆるふわな感じの講座を目指しているので、ロジバンに興味のある方はどうぞ！#lojban #はじめてのロジバン #ロジバン [http://bit.ly/1AICd7K]
13:31 < durka42> ozgu: ua do pamoi lo bredi
14:51  * nuzba @nickpatch: @unjoanqualsevol @srl295 @BabelStone The languages I listed all do have flags: Esperanto (eo), Lojban (jbo), Fenno-Swedish (sv-FI), etc. [http://bit.ly/1dQORwF]
15:22 < snanu> I'm having trouble distinguishing the meanings of ca'a and ca'o
15:26 < ldlework> snanu: ca'a has to do more with potentiality, and ca'o has more to do with where in the progression of an event something happens.
15:28 < ldlework> snanu: compare, "could", "would, and "am", vs "scheduled", "in progress", and "ended"
15:28 < ldlework> sorry
15:29 < ldlework> snanu: compare, "could", "am", "did" vs "scheduled", "in progress", and "ended"
15:29 < ldlework> that you're having trouble distinguishing them is no surprise, they're similar
15:29 < snanu> en: ca'a
15:29 < mensi> ca'a = [CAhA] modal aspect: actuality/ongoing event. |>>> officialdata
15:30 < snanu> en: ca'o
15:30 < mensi> ca'o = [ZAhO] interval event contour: during ...; continuative                                    |-----|. |>>>
15:30 < mensi> officialdata
15:30 < snanu> .ua they aren't even the same selma'o
15:30 < ldlework> indeed
15:30 < snanu> I just assumed they were both za'o
15:30 < ldlework> "ca'a" is like the "indeed" of whether something can or has happened.
15:30 < ldlework> "ca'o" is like the "yes" of whether is something is happening
15:31 < ldlework> ca'a, when you care that the event actually took place at all (right now)
15:31 < ldlework> ca'o when you care when the event took place (right now)
15:32 < ldlework> mi ca'a kulmu'o
15:33 < ldlework> mi ca'o citka
15:37 < snanu> ki'e .i mi ca'a .u'i cilre
15:38 < snanu> the ca'a definition includes "ongoing", which is confusing
15:41 < ldlework> snanu: it just means as I say this, the event is definitely manifest.
15:41 < ldlework> as opposed to not-manifest, rather then "in the past" or "in the future"
15:42 < ldlework> this is my understanding anyway
15:42 < ldlework> with ca'o, you care that the event is definitely happening right now, as opposed to "in the past" or "in the future"
15:49 < snanu> so even though ca'a implies ca'o and ca'o implies ca'a, you're only talking about its actuality or its interval
15:51 < snanu> one last thing, do you know what a "native check" is?
15:51 < snanu> I see it mentioned in this tatoeba spreadsheet several times but can't tell what it is
16:02 < ldlework> snanu: I have no idea what that is
16:02 < ldlework> I haven't been involved in the tatoeba stuff
16:03 < snanu> je'e
19:23 < demize> I was trying to translate some lyric lines, and was wondering if {mi ba ri'irsi'a tai le gerku ku setu'i le malsi be se ticysku} grammars/makes sense?
19:24 < demize> mensi seems not to parse it properly, but what I've read of the CLL thus for it feels like it should parse properly
19:24 < demize> The latter properly meaning what I want.
19:35 < demize> exp: mi ba ri'irsi'a tai le gerku ku setu'i le malsi be se ticysku
19:35 < mensi> (mi [CU {ba ri'irsi'a} {<tai (¹le gerku ku¹)> <se tu'i> <le (¹[malsi {be BEhO}] [se ticysku]¹) KU>} VAU])
19:49 < snanu>  mi na spuda .i mi dukse lo ka nintadni
20:22 < noncomcinse> cipra
20:23 < noncomcinse> da'i ganai snada nunjorne gi coi lo jbopre cu rinsa
22:14 < gocti> demize: {se tu'i} should be {tu'i} (or {bu'u}; {tu'i} gets
22:15 < gocti> practically no use), and {be se ticysku} -> {be le se ticysku}
22:15 < gocti> (and if you're aiming for modern Lojban, replace {le} with {lo})
22:18 < gocti> ... and the {tai} term should be after the {bu'u} term, breaking the word order of the original
22:19 < gocti> noncomcinse: cipra snada coi ru'e
22:20 < noncomcinse> coi ru'e ji'a
22:20 < noncomcinse> en: tai
22:20 < mensi> tai = [BAI] tamsmi modal, 1st place (like)/(in manner 2)      resembling ...; sharing ideal form ... |>>> tamsmi is x1
22:20 < mensi> resembles x2 sharing ideal form/shape x3 in property x4 |>>> officialdata
23:00 < gleki> mensi: doi snanu "native check" is a tag for sentences that are probably poor style Lojbn or just plain wrong translation
23:00 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.snanu.gy. di'a cusku da
23:16 < gleki> mensi: doi snanu {ca'a} is demonstrated activity. like you are a president but right now you act as a parent - you demonstrate this activity. {ca'o} shows that event is in progress. the two particles dont imply each other.
23:16 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.snanu.gy. di'a cusku da
--- Day changed Fri May 08 2015
00:31  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: la'a bredi lo nu cinmo lo ka fenki enai lo ka prije .i se mukti lo nu pluka zdile .i ui   #lojban [http://bit.ly/1KoXSHn]
00:41  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: la kixotes fenki prenu .i ku'i ri djica lo nu zukte lo xamgu .i xu do se slabu lo drata je fenki prenu poi xamgu zukte .i ui   #lojban [http://bit.ly/1KoZ3GL]
01:15  * nuzba @uitki: sumti qualifiers - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sumti_qualifiers by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1Pu546y]
01:19  * nuzba @uitki: discussion of the Conservative Extension - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/discussion_of_the_Conservative_Extension by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1Pu5Lgf]
01:20 <@Broca> Oh dear. Formatting disaster.
01:28 < gleki> why, i think i fixed most of it
01:28 < gleki> pls reload
01:46  * nuzba @uitki: La Bangu: Dictionary with Examples - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu:_Dictionary_with_Examples by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1Pu8Rkn]
01:49 < demize> gocti: Ah, yeah, I should stop writing things when I'm tired. Though either way, setu'i should work (albeit not do what I wanted) according to the CLL?
01:53 < demize> gocti: Also, should it or "should" it be moved?
01:53 < demize> (also-also, thanks.)
02:03 < gleki> jbo:tu'i
02:03 < mensi> tu'i = [BAI] fi'o stuzi
02:36 < Zluglu> http://www.laboiteverte.fr/des-doubles-expositions-danimaux-et-de-paysages/animal-double-exposition-08/ CUREUIL
02:36 < Zluglu> oops, sry, wrong chan
02:48 < demize> (Urgh, did my messages go through? Lost my connection it seems..)
02:52 < Zluglu> demize : which one ? your last one is “(also-also, thanks.)”
02:53 < demize> <demize> It's a BAI so according to the CLL 9.6 setu'i should parse properly AFAIKS
02:53 < demize> <demize> Hmm, "I was even surprised at little things like the deprecation of *tirxu* in favor of *tigra*" is tigra really lojban?
02:53 < demize> <demize> Only place I can find it is a list comparing lojban to loglan
03:21 < Spheniscine> Hello. Anyone here?
03:25 < Zluglu> coi
03:28 < Spheniscine> coi
03:30 < Spheniscine> e'o do tcidu me'oi https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/Q10NFUJ0u8s
03:30 < Spheniscine> (I hope I'm doing this right... it's been a long time lol)
03:33 < Spheniscine> (Oh that should probably have been la'oi, not me'oi)
03:34 < Spheniscine> (or lo me'oi)
03:35 < Spheniscine> (Still need a proper Lojban name. I used to go by <la zipcpi>)
03:36 < b_jonas> coi la'o di. Spheniscine .di
03:36 < Spheniscine> coi la'oi b_jonas
03:41 < gleki> demize: deprecation where?
03:42 < Spheniscine> I might be mistaken about that? All I knew was that there was a beginner's dictionary that promoted tigra and left out tirxu (though I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean that tirxu is dropped)
03:43 < gleki> it doesnt
03:43 < gleki> simple {tirxu} doesnt necessarily mean "tiger"
03:43 < Spheniscine> Mm
03:43 < Spheniscine> Yeah I realize that
03:45 < Spheniscine> Mind if I did a proofreading pass on your primer? I noticed some errors... like making July the 6th month...
03:46 < Spheniscine> coi la selpa'i
03:46 < selpahi> coi
03:47 < gleki> which primer?
03:47 < Spheniscine> And I also wonder if there should be something about <goi> in there. Assignative pronouns didn't quite take off like the original creators hoped, but I think it still can be quite a powerful tool if needed.
03:48 < gleki> there where?
03:48 < Spheniscine> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)#Letters_instead_of_.22he.22_and_.22she.22
03:49 < b_jonas> July the 6th months ... I always make those errors. I'd like a calendar that shows _both_ the names and the number of each month, but I haven't seen such a thing. I might have to make one myself.
03:50 < Spheniscine> The main weakness of assignative pronouns was that people just don't think to assign a pronoun to something just in case you need to refer to them later. In writing though, or when you know you're going to talk about a lot of things that have the same starting letter or is otherwise ambiguous, it can be helpful
03:52 < b_jonas> Sure, you don't have to use assigned names all the time, just sometimes.
03:52 < Spheniscine> And <my goi ma> was a standard way of asking "What does M refer to?" if there was genuine confusion. Even though I know <my du ma> could work too
03:53 < b_jonas> And as for a name, sure, just use some temporary name if you haven't found one that really suits you yet.
03:54 < gleki> Spheniscine: did you read the first sentences of this course?
03:56 < Spheniscine> What, the suggestions and feedback thing?
03:56 < Spheniscine> Yeah maybe I'll do that
03:56 < Spheniscine> Thanks
03:59 < gleki> it's a darft, thus error
04:00 < Spheniscine> For reference the original idea was that there were five assignative pronouns, <ko'a>, <ko'e>, <ko'i>, <ko'o>, <ko'u> that you assigned at will using <goi>, then can use later. Like I said it didn't quite take off; people preferred using letter-strings as pronouns instead
04:02 < b_jonas> Spheniscine: ten. and I do use {ko'a} and its kin.
04:02 < Spheniscine> I see.
04:02 < selpahi> I avoid them in literary texts.
04:02 < Spheniscine> Yeah I forgot about the other five... can't even recall them right now
04:03 < selpahi> {fo'V} are the other five
04:03 < b_jonas> Spheniscine: actually there's infinitely many because you can use longer letteral sequences, or indexing, but yeah
04:03  * Spheniscine nods
04:03 < b_jonas> you can even use names made with {la}
04:03 < b_jonas> whatever makes sense
04:04 < b_jonas> I sometimes use {ko'a} or its relatives when I describe something I'd like to ask a lojban word for.
04:04 < Spheniscine> It's just as a programmer I thought assignative pronouns were quite an interesting idea; I understand why it ran into issues though
04:05 < b_jonas> (Usually I choose the one of the four whose vowel is mnemonic for me because it reminds me to some word I describe that thing.)
04:05 < b_jonas> I don't think it ran into issues. They still work.
04:06 < Spheniscine> Not so much issues as to working, but issues that prevented it from being the most popular system
04:06 < b_jonas> They might not be as common words as {.i} and {lo} and {cu} and {lo nu} but so what?
04:06 < b_jonas> It doesn't have to be "the most popular".
04:06  * Spheniscine nods
04:07 < Spheniscine> Yes I understand all that. Which is why I understand that the new primer doesn't start with it anymore (in the old primer assignative pronouns were one of the first things introduced)
04:08 < Spheniscine> But like I said, they still exist and work, and can be a powerful tool when needed
04:08 < gleki> Spheniscine: "July" issue fixed, ki'esai
04:09 < Spheniscine> je'e
04:11  * nuzba @uitki: L17-01 - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/L17-01 by Gleki - /* Dates */ [http://bit.ly/1zJaBEz]
04:11 < Spheniscine> But yeah at the very least I do think the course should introduce <goi> at some point
04:12 < gleki> the course cant explain everything
04:13 < Spheniscine> Yeah not everything, but at least as a possible solution to the problem posed by the quote, "But notice that it can happen that we'd like to refer back to, say, lo mlatu, but then before we can do so, another noun or name that starts with m appeared in the meantime, so that my. can no longer refer to the cat. The quickest way out is to repeat the entire noun or name, i.e.  lo mlatu."
04:14 < Spheniscine> Just make an example sentence about it, say that <goi ma> can be used to ask what any particular pronoun refers to, then move on
04:16 < Spheniscine> Because as a beginner it really did blow my mind that Lojban had an inherent solution to the problem of ambiguous pronouns; even if it isn't used a lot, the very fact that it's there was one of the things that drawn me to it
04:18 < Spheniscine> I remember an assignment in class where I ended up having to talk about "the CEO" and "the PR representative".... and I didn't want to presume either of their genders
04:18 < Spheniscine> And refer to them over and over and over again
04:19 < Spheniscine> I was like, yuck. Where are the assignative pronouns, or even letter-pronouns, in English :p
04:22 < selpahi> If you've been gone for over 10 years, then you probably also missed all the great literary translations?
04:22 < selpahi> And music?
04:23 < Spheniscine> Yes, probably. Though I did see your rap video
04:23 < selpahi> Yeah, I made three rap songs. But guskant also made some very beautiful music
04:28 < selpahi> Lojban really has changed considerably over the last decade.
04:36 < b_jonas> also, ten years... wow
04:43 < gleki> Spheniscine: personally i dont use forethought assignments, thus i completely omitted {goi}. i would actually use {le} or {lo mi'u} or something for referring back
04:43 < gleki> one may just read the history http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_timeline
04:47  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban timeline - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_timeline by Gleki - /* 2015 */ [http://bit.ly/1H3tJgu]
04:48 < Spheniscine> doi la gleki: Well, I guess it's just a matter of taste/personal style then
04:49 < gleki> i cant describe what i never use. maybe someone else can
04:49 < Spheniscine> Yeah maybe I can write a small paragraph on it
04:49 < gleki> have u read Wave lessons?
04:50 < Spheniscine> That one is mostly copied from the CLL one right?
04:51 < gleki> no
04:51 < Spheniscine> Huh... did I click on the wrong link?
04:52 < Spheniscine> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons
04:52 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons
04:52 < gleki> yes
04:52 < gleki> where is CLL thing there
04:53 < Spheniscine> Oh... I completely misremembered what the CLL was like
04:53 < Spheniscine> I must have read a version of the Wave Lessons long ago
04:54 < Spheniscine> u'usai
04:59 < gleki> i dont have you in logs of this channel, so it must be before 2010. although i remember your name. probably from lo mriste
04:59 < b_jonas> gleki: maybe under another name?
04:59 < Spheniscine> Yes, lo mriste
04:59 < b_jonas> but he did say 10 years
04:59 < Spheniscine> I think I remember you too
05:01 < Spheniscine> Ah that old mriste. Caused me to receive a lot of mabla feskamymri too :p
05:02 < Spheniscine> *samfesmri
05:02 < Spheniscine> well... spam
05:03 < Spheniscine> vlasisku says kibmalmri
05:05 < Spheniscine> Yep... lots of Nigerian princes with locked bank accounts
05:10 < phma> coi
05:11 < Spheniscine> My personal idea of how <goi> might be used without forethought is that instead of assigning them on the start as <lo mlatu goi my>, you only assign as soon as you realize the pronoun is ambiguous, i.e. <my goi lo mlatu>
05:12 < Spheniscine> Of course you can still do the first if you either anticipate referring to the cat a lot, or in writing where you can go back to add that
05:20 < Spheniscine> I remember lai citno melbi pinpedi (links no longer work though T.T) but not xorlo. Though the mailing list says I posted in 2008 so I might have missed the update... I kinda thought I saw people using the word <lo> "wrong" :p
05:23 < Spheniscine> Certainly I remembered using <le> more than <lo>
05:23 < Spheniscine> I might slip up now and then
05:24 < Spheniscine> What happened to the keys?
05:26 < b_jonas> what keys?
05:26 < Spheniscine> http://lodockikumazvati.org/
05:26 < b_jonas> I don't know what that is
05:27 < Spheniscine> Me neither. It's supposed to be some kind of language game?
05:27 < Spheniscine> "Where Are My Keys"
05:27 < Spheniscine> *"Where Are Your Keys"
05:29 < Spheniscine> I'm watching the official video and I still don't know what it is
05:29 < Spheniscine> https://vimeo.com/whereareyourkeys
05:37 < Spheniscine> I still have no idea how the game is played
05:41 < demize> Spheniscine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Where_Are_Your_Keys%3F%22
05:42 < demize> 6th paragraph might give you some idea.
05:42 < Spheniscine> Hm
05:43 < Spheniscine> So it was a Skype thing?
05:43 < demize> Well, not specifically, but you can certainly play it on skype
05:43 < Spheniscine> Ah
05:44 < demize> https://web.archive.org/web/20140517201104/http://lodockikumazvati.org/ here
05:44 < demize> Not sure that that page will explain much though
05:47  * Spheniscine shrugs
05:48 < demize> I haven't personally played it, but as far as I can remember the game itself is rather simple.
05:52 < selpahi> I've played it and seen it being played.
05:53 < selpahi> It relies heavily on visual clues and repetition.
05:53 < selpahi> It was played via email once, and the gamemaster had to send images along all the time
05:53 < selpahi> ti rokci
05:54 < selpahi> .i ko dunda lo rokci mi
05:54 < selpahi> Although I don't think it ever got beyond that
05:54 < selpahi> It's something absolute beginners could play at a logfest
05:56 < Spheniscine> Hm
05:57 < Spheniscine> I think you're then suppose to then work in more complicated concepts, like adjectives, position, and time
05:58 < selpahi> Sure, you can keep it going as much as you like, in theory. Hard to do unless everyone is physically in the same place
05:58 < selpahi> I want to see someone teach quantifier scope though this game zo'o
05:58 < selpahi> through *
05:59 < Spheniscine> u'i
06:00 < Spheniscine> That might actually work :p
06:01 < Spheniscine> lo xo rokci cu zvati
06:01 < Spheniscine> .i mu
06:01 < Spheniscine> .i ko dunda re lo mu rokci
06:02 < selpahi> .i gau ko ro da poi ke'a drata do zo'u do dunda su'o pa lo mu rokci da
06:03 < Spheniscine> Even logical connectives might work. And assignative pronouns :p
06:03 < selpahi> .au pei do jbota'a
06:04 < selpahi> .i lo glico cu na'e cinri zo'o
06:04 < phma> la .alyn.post. ponse lo ckiku
06:05 < selpahi> .i .au pei zo zipcpi do di'a cmene mi'a doi la zipcpi da'i
06:05 < Spheniscine> (Do you want to speak Lojban? English isn't interesting :p Alin Post (?) has a key)
06:06 < Spheniscine> [Still need a parser for some of those cmavo :p]
06:06 < selpahi> lo ckiku ma zvati .i la .alyn. cu ralte lo ckiku
06:07 < selpahi> .i .e'u do troci lo ka cusku su'o lojbo
06:08 < selpahi> "Still need a parser fro some of those cmavo" -> {su'o da poi me lo [va] cmavo zo'u mi za'o nitcu tu'a lo gentufa tu'a da}
06:10 < selpahi> I'm trying to get you to speak Lojban :)
06:10 < phma> valsi: sfenisku
06:11 < phma> vlaste: sfenisku
06:11 < vlaste> no results. http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/sfenisku
06:11 < selpahi> da'i lo sfenisku cu mo
06:11 < valsi> sefta = x1 is surface/face [bounded shape/form] of [higher-dimension] object x2, on side x3, edges x4.
06:11 < selpahi> .i ji'a ma nisku
06:12 < phma> lo sfenisku cu nisku gi'e na galtu lo sefta
06:12 < Spheniscine> doi valsi do'u zo'o
06:12 < selpahi> zo nisku mi na slabu
06:13 < selpahi> .i ca co'u go'i
06:14 < selpahi> .i nisku gi'e gapru lo sefta
06:14 < Spheniscine> [still trying to find the tense for "no longer" >.<]
06:15 < b_jonas> zo nisku ki'a la selpa'i
06:15 < phma> pujecanai
06:15 < b_jonas> y
06:15 < b_jonas> uanai
06:15 < selpahi> ba'e la .pier. cu cusku zo sfenisku .i ku'i si'au la .and. cu finti
06:15 < selpahi> .i va'o ro da je'umlu mi fa lo du'u zo sfenisku cu laldo sai mupli lo tcizbaga valsi
06:16 < b_jonas> je'e
06:16 < phma> "nisku" is a back-formation from "sfenisku". it denotes some fraiks
06:16 < Spheniscine> i pe'i mi dukse bo tsali troci lo nu fukpi lo mi glico leksiko
06:16 < phma> "penguine" is no longer valid but "pengu'ine" still is
06:16 < b_jonas> uinai
06:17 < selpahi> or penguuine
06:17 < Spheniscine> [What's wrong with <zipcpi>?]
06:17 < phma> doesn't apply to Galápagos penguins, they're at the equator
06:17 < Spheniscine> [Yeah I guess there is that]
06:18 < Ilmen> en: zipcpi
06:19 < mensi> zipcpi [< dzipo cipni ≈ Antarctican bird] = x1=dzipo1=cipni1 is a penguin of species x2=cipni2. |>>>
06:19 < mensi> spheniscine
06:19 < selpahi> Spheniscine: "no longer" is {pu je nai ca} or {ba'o}
06:20 < Spheniscine> [phma: I guess [CuV] and [CiV] are no longer allowed in zi'evla?]
06:20 < selpahi> In any word.
06:20 < b_jonas> selpahi: my take is that they're allowed in cmevla, though besides one example in the CLL there's nothing that specifically confirms this
06:21 < phma> I pulled down the back arrow on jbovlaste and found "Adding definition: песна йодлем". I don't remember adding that.
06:21 < b_jonas> hmm, actually more than one
06:21 < b_jonas> multiple examples in the CLL
06:22 < phma> consonant followed by glide is no longer allowed. If i or u is not a glide, CiV and CuV are allowed, e.g. penguuine.
06:22 < Spheniscine> lo mi kibykrati ba'o zipcpi .i ku'i ri zipcpi skari gerku
06:22 < selpahi> je'e
06:22 < phma> "bongnanba" is in the CLL and it's no longer allowed (I haven't checked the latest version)
06:23 < Spheniscine> http://thunderthylacine.deviantart.com/art/Spheniscine-154152658
06:24 < phma> penguiune
06:24 < phma> I was going to suggest "pengvine" but that has the same problem as "bongnanba".
06:24 < Spheniscine> pengu'u'u'u'i'i'i'i'i'i'ine
06:25 < selpahi> pengivine .u'i
06:25 < selpahi> penguvine
06:29 < Spheniscine> zo'oi bongnanba a'unai
06:31 < Spheniscine> le banvoksle cu mutce rigni mi
06:33 < Spheniscine> zoi zoi. /ŋɡn/ /ŋɡn/ /ŋɡn/ /ŋɡn/ /ŋɡn/ .zoi
06:35 < Spheniscine> .i sance simsa lo nu kalcyvi'i
06:36 < Spheniscine> .i u'i o'a nai ru'e
06:41 < Spheniscine> .i pu co'a smaji .uinai
06:49 < gleki> en:iodle
06:49 < mensi> iodle = x1 yodels x2 (song)
06:49 < gleki> ru: iodle
06:50 < gleki> ru: iodle
06:50 < mensi> iodle = x1 поёт йодлем x2 (песню) |>>> См. sanga |>>> gleki
06:50 < mensi> iodle = x1 поёт йодлем x2 (песню) |>>> См. sanga |>>> gleki
07:34 < Spheniscine> I clicked the Google Translate on Lojban text once just to see what happened. It thought it was Italian
07:34 < Spheniscine> Of course, it didn't translate
07:36 < durka42> yeah, it usually says italian!
07:36 < Spheniscine> How interesting
07:48 < gleki> someone needs to impove Google's Translation Memory for Lojban. I only imported nouns into it
07:59 < Spheniscine> Hm I thought if there would be a ban on <CiV> and <CuV> in words it would be because there is an extremely strong tendency for those phonetic combinations to assimilate. e.g. "sia" said quickly tends to mutate into "ca"
07:59 < selpahi> Yes.
07:59 < Spheniscine> So I don't think even something like "siiu" would be immune
07:59 < selpahi> At least it's two syllables
08:00 < Spheniscine> Hm.
08:00 < selpahi> \/siju/ (IPA)
08:00 < Spheniscine> Could it be mistaken for "ci,u" though?
08:00 < Spheniscine> Ah... si,iu
08:01 < Spheniscine> Yeah that should be more robust
08:04 < Spheniscine> My mind was stuck on interpreting it as sii,u
08:09 < selpahi> Syllables cannot have empty onsets.
08:10 < durka42> coi la selpa'i
08:10 < ozgu> coi la selpa'i
08:11 < selpahi> coi lo re do
08:11 < Spheniscine> coi ro do
08:11 < ozgu> coi
08:11 < ozgu> pei
08:11 < ozgu> ie mi pa moi doi la .urk
08:12 < ozgu> .
08:12 < durka42> mi na djuno lo du zukte ma kau ca lo ca kelka'u
08:13 < selpahi> zo'o ko venfu la .xorxes. tu'a mi
08:13 < ozgu> ko to'o mi minde
08:14 < selpahi> ma ka to'o do minde
08:15 < Spheniscine> do tavla tu'a la gugykai selkei xu
08:15 < selpahi> la nu jansu
08:15 < Spheniscine> *gugyka'i
08:16 < ozgu> .i mi .a lo mi stedu cu sedycro
08:17 < selpahi> do
08:18 < selpahi> .i ja lo do stedu cu se stedu .i ku'i uu r
08:18 < selpahi> si
08:18 < ozgu> lo ka seduce do cu .emna ma
08:19 < selpahi> mi po'o ia
08:19 < Spheniscine> .emna ki'a
08:19 < anmo> uu
08:19 < anmo> se ckaji do'oi Spheniscine
08:20 < anmo> .ai kafyjbo
08:20 < selpahi> jbo:emna
08:20 < anmo> co'oru'e
08:20 < mensi> emna = me'au x1 fa x2 boi x3
08:22 < Spheniscine> en:emna
08:22 < mensi> emna = x1 (n-ary property) is applied to sumti x2, x3, ...
08:22 < Spheniscine> eng:emna
08:27 < Spheniscine> cizra valsi .i simsa lo cmavo ja zo <selkai> vau ua nai
08:28 < Spheniscine> .iacu'i nitcu lo nu finti lo zi'evla
08:29 < zahlman> u'i lo ka nitcu cu na vajni pe'i
08:38 < anmo> banli valsi
08:39 < selpahi> pu zu cedra lo nu ro da jinvi lo du'u ro fu'ivla cu xlali
08:39 < selpahi> .i ku'i lo cabdei cedra cu fricytce
08:40 < selpahi> .i ji'a no'e fu'ivla fa zo .emna .i zi'evla ku'i
08:42 < anmo> jbofuvi milxe
08:42 < selpahi> ki'u ma zo jbofuvi je nai zo jbofuva valsi lo ka jbofuvi
08:43 < anmo> .i la .skik. cu mu'umgu ba'a to xu jet toi .i .y mi na djuno fi lo krinu
08:43 < selpahi> finti ju mu'umgu
08:44 < anmo> se ju la'a
08:44 < selpahi> ro nu mu'umgu cu nu finti .i na ku ro nu finti cu nu mu'umgu
08:44 < anmo> jetnu
08:44 < Spheniscine> en:mu'umgu
08:44 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
08:45 < Spheniscine> jbo:mu'umgu
08:45 < anmo> xu zo jbofuva balmau ma'i do
08:45 < mensi> mu'umgu = x1 finti x2 lo nu x3 tcaci x4
08:45 < selpahi> xu do certu lo ka sampla doi la .anmo .i .a'u pei do pagbu lo mi bende pe lo mi banli tutci
08:45 < anmo> certu
08:45 < anmo> .a'u sai
08:46 < selpahi> xu do kakne tu'a lo fonxa proga lu'u ji'a
08:46 < selpahi> .i mi na djuno lo du'u ma kau ni frica
08:46 < anmo> li ji'i cu ni mi kakne
08:46 < selpahi> .i ku'i ia sai frica
08:46 < anmo> .i do brireisku pu lo na'e tordu
08:47 < anmo> .y
08:47 < selpahi> za ie
08:47 < anmo> ko se xanri lo nu mi cuksu lo drani
08:47 < anmo> cusku
08:47  * selpahi cu se xanri
08:47 < anmo> ki'e
08:47 < anmo> ie frica
08:48 < anmo> xu do djica tau lo .aptci
08:48 < anmo> lo fonxa .aptci
08:48 < selpahi> ka'e cumki la'a fa lo nu lo skami sampla co'a certu tu'a lo fonxa
08:48 < selpahi> .i go'e
08:48 < anmo> pu'i cumki
08:48 < selpahi> .u'i
08:49 < anmo> mi na'e ke temci zifre lo ka ca cilre lo nintadji .i ku'i ba'a lo ni mi ka'e sidju cu na cmalu
08:49 < selpahi> lo .aptci cu pluja .i nitcu lo ka gaja lo barda bende cu gunka gi lo cmalu bende poi mencre sai cu gunka
08:50 < selpahi> je'e
08:50 < anmo> do mencre .i jo'a kakne lo ka samplacli
08:50 < selpahi> ia nai
08:51 < selpahi> .i kakne .i ku'i temci fa lo bradu'e
08:51 < anmo> .i ku'i lo ditcu cu ta'e na'e mokca
08:51 < selpahi> .u'i na'e mokca
08:51 < anmo> toltordu'e
08:51 < Spheniscine> zo <oi'o> uanairu'e .i .iacu'i ka'e bapli lo nu lo cmavo cu malvla .i da'i gijanai lo mi verba cu cusku obu gi mi nitcu lo nu lumci lo vy moklu ve lo zbabu .i zo'o
08:52 < Spheniscine> (oops forgot a xu in the last sentence... though I probably won't know where to put it)
08:53 < selpahi> mi so'u roi viska tu'a zo .oi'o
08:53 < anmo> mi no roi
08:53 < anmo> sa'e mi tolmo'i no selfri pe zo .oi'o
08:53 < anmo> .y
08:53 < anmo> morji :p
08:54 < anmo> en:oi'o
08:54 < mensi> oi'o = [UI1] attitudinal: fuck/shit - fuck yeah/hell yeah
08:54 < anmo> .oi
08:54 < anmo> mi ca co'a mlimo'i
08:54 < anmo> mo'imli*
08:54 < anmo> zo mojmli
08:54 < anmo> xajmi valsi
08:56 < selpahi> mi na birti .i ku'i la'a xamgu fa lo nu da'i gaje su da .aptci gi su de kibystu
08:56 < selpahi> .i la .aptci cu vajmau ju'o cu'i
08:57 < selpahi> la se ju lo .aptci cu go'i
08:57 < Spheniscine> da'i zo'o lu <DOI VERBA O'ONAI mi za'ure'u cpedu fi do fe lo nu cusku zo oi jenai zo oi'o> li'u
08:57 < selpahi> zo'o «lu OI'O SAI DOI VERBA KO NA CUSKU ZO OI'O li'u»
08:58 < anmo> lo'u LO JA LO le'u .u'i .i'e ru'e
08:59 < anmo> sa'ei .glet. sa'ei .kalc. sa'ei .vim.
08:59 < anmo> #oiho
08:59 < selpahi> sa'ei .emaks. .yyyy
09:00 < anmo> ŭi .u'i
09:00 < anmo> li'a lo jbocei cu xebni la .vim.
09:00 < Spheniscine> .u'isai doi selpa'i
09:00 < selpahi> (to mi djuno no da lo re mei toi)
09:00 < anmo> mi vimpre
09:00 < anmo> .u'i
09:00 < anmo> .au cmene
09:01 < vimpre> pu ku mi se cmene zo vimvi'o .i ri ji'a xajmi mi
09:01 < vimpre> .i mi se xajmi so'i tolxajmi vau se'o
09:01 < selpahi> mi se xajmi zo .aiste .u'i
09:01 < selpahi> .i ku'i dotco po'o xajmi
09:01 < vimpre> ŭi
09:01 < vimpre> klamburi ie
09:02 < Spheniscine> en:aiste
09:02 < mensi> tsaitkaiste = x1 is the Zeitgeist of period x2
09:02 < Spheniscine> .yyyyy.
09:02 < selpahi> zo .aiste banli pe'i
09:02 < vimpre> .i ku'i va'o lo nu na klamburi zo'u zo .aiste banli
09:02 < selpahi> jbo: aiste
09:02 < mensi> aiste = x1 liste lo poi'i x2 .aidji lo ka ce'u ckaji ke'a |>>> srana fa zo liste .e zo ai .e zo zukte .e zo aidji .e zo
09:02 < mensi> eiste |>>> selpahi
09:02 < vimpre> zo .eiste .e zo .auste vu'o ji'a banli
09:03 < vimpre> .i je ko'oi zbasu lo ŭiste gi'e lifri lo cmima
09:04 < selpahi> .u'i mi morji lo me la cirko moi noi liste lo melbi jufra je noi ku'i liste ba'e pa da .i pa da melbi gi'e lojbo
09:04 < selpahi> .u'i
09:04 < selpahi> (to xu do morji .i fasnu ca lo nu mamylta'a toi)
09:04 < vimpre> mojmli
09:04 < vimpre> fa mi
09:04 < vimpre> mi na morji lo ropa cmima
09:04 < vimpre> xu do ja'a goi
09:04 < vimpre> si go'i
09:05 < selpahi> ia se cusku mi fa lo cmima .i mi na morji lo jufra
09:05 < Spheniscine> oi'oste ki'a zo'o
09:05 < vimpre> pagbu lo mi ki'aste
09:05 < selpahi> lol
09:05 < selpahi> <3
09:06 < selpahi> lo ni lo .irci cu zanzebna zo'u co'a banzu lo nu mi co'a cmila
09:06 < selpahi> .u'i sai
09:06 < urka> zo ki'aste zo'u fabu krixa ri'a lo nu febu na se vlaste
09:06 < selpahi> bebna sai sance zo ki'aste
09:07 < selpahi> .i xu na ki'a zei liste
09:07 < selpahi> .u'i
09:07 < vimpre> .u'i
09:07 < vimpre> mi ba'e nau co'a sanji lo du'u lujvo
09:07 < selpahi> .oi'ojvo
09:07 < vimpre> iepsi tu'a zo ki'a zei liste
09:08 < selpahi> mi xarpei lo nu do ja'a finti lo je'a liste be lo ki'a zei valsi
09:08 < Spheniscine> jbo:iepsi
09:08 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
09:08 < gleki> lo'e lojbo eiste cu ainste
09:09 < selpahi> .ainstaine fa la pa rokci
09:09 < selpahi> .ainctaine sa'e
09:09 < vimpre> vlakra fa zo'oi iep .e zo'oi yep do'oi Spheniscine .i mi toljunri ke zasni finti
09:09 < gleki> va'o zei valsi = ad hoc word
09:09 < gleki> pei
09:10 < vimpre> .y
09:10 < vimpre> vanbi valsi xu
09:10 < selpahi> za'e zei valsi
09:10 < vimpre> zasni vanbi valsi xu
09:10 < gleki> .w ad hoc
09:10 < phenny> ad hoc — adjective: 1. For a particular purpose, 2. Created on the spur of the moment; impromptu — adverb: 1. On the spur of the moment, 2. For a particular purpose
09:10 < selpahi> atxoke si
09:10 < gleki> mu'i zei valsi gi'a va'o zei valsi
09:10 < vimpre> se zau zo za'e zei valsi
09:11 < selpahi> doi la vimstizu si vimpre .i da'i do se pendo lo kakne poi se cinri
09:11 < vimpre> ba'a zo .atxoke .atxoke
09:11 < selpahi> go'i
09:11 < vimpre> da'i ru'e
09:11 < gleki> en:/full zz'e
09:11 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
09:11 < gleki> en:/full za'e
09:11 < mensi> 4 da se tolcri: za'e, za'e zei lujvo, za'e zei valsi, zi'a
09:11 < gleki> en:za'e zei valsi
09:11 < mensi> za'e zei valsi = x1 is an ad hoc word
09:11 < gleki> en: za'e zei valsi
09:11 < mensi> za'e zei valsi = x1 is an ad hoc word |>>> See za'e, valsi |>>> gleki
09:11 < gleki> je'e la gleki
09:11 < selpahi> .u'i
09:12 < gleki> en: za'e zei lujvo
09:12 < mensi> za'e zei lujvo = x1 is a nonce-lujvo meaning x2 made from components x3 |>>> selpahi
09:12 < gleki> ue
09:12 < vimpre> mi se slabu so'u taipre
09:12 < vimpre> artixoke
09:12 < selpahi> .articoke
09:12 < vimpre> ko .arti
09:12 < selpahi> en:articok
09:12 < mensi> articoka = x1 is an artichoke of species/variety x2
09:13 < selpahi> ia ru'e pa lo co'e pe la comynai cu se pagbu zo .articoka
09:13 < selpahi> ti'e
09:14 < Spheniscine> .ei mi surla co'o loi pendo
09:14 < vimpre> .u'i ti'e dai
09:14 < selpahi> co'o do
09:14 < vimpre> .a'u
09:14 < vimpre> co'o doi la'oi Spheniscine
09:14 < articoka> xu la comynai cu stagycti
09:15 < selpahi> citka lo stagi ku po'o nai
09:15 < comzgu> ii dai
09:15 < comzgu> citka lo rectu ku ji'a pei
09:15 < selpahi> .au pei zoi ly. mz .ly co'a drani
09:15 < comzgu> au sai
09:15 < selpahi> ui .u'i
09:15 < comzgu> pagbu lo .auste
09:16 < selpahi> ja'a rectu ji'a
09:17 < selpahi> .i mi tolplanydu'e lo ka na .omnycti
09:17 < comzgu> .au co'a ku lu lo pagbu lo do'este li'u jai cafne be fai lo ka se cusku lo jbopre
09:17 < comzgu> je'e doi selpa'o
09:19 < selpahi> do'e lo pempau zo .articoka rimni bi drata vlali'i
09:19 < comzgu> .u'e
09:20 < selpahi> metfora .articoka
09:20 < comzgu> pe'a dai
09:20 < comzgu> .u'i
09:20 < comzgu> ma menre lo pa metfora .articoka
09:20 < selpahi> .i je'u lo .articoka na kukte mi .i ku'i zo'o mi no roi citka pu
09:20 < selpahi> .i nu'o citka .i ku'i na kukte
09:20 < selpahi> #djunofoma
09:21 < comzgu> djuno fo lo jitfa xanri be do
09:21 < comzgu> .oi
09:21 < comzgu> lo .articoka cu kukte sanmi sai
09:21 < selpahi> kuktysai sai
09:21 < comzgu> ie
09:21 < comzgu> to sa'ei .kuk. .o'a nai toi
09:22 < selpahi> lo .articoka senta cu metfora lo so'o senta be lo selpre
09:22 < comzgu> kukteko fa lo .articoka
09:22 < selpahi> xu lo .articoka cu koinde
09:22 < comzgu> lo selpre ku ua ue ua nai ru'e
09:22 < comzgu> .u'i
09:23 < comzgu> lo .articoka cu cusku lu ko'oi citka mi li'u
09:23 < comzgu> xu zo koi ko'oi zei cmavrbai ma'i do vau xo'o xo'o sai xe'e'e'e'e
09:23 < comzgu> mi skoia po'o
09:24 < selpahi> je'e skoia
09:24 < comzgu> mi .emna lo ka .erli .i ku'i mi ze'e larvi
09:24 < comzgu> .a'o do cinki na
09:25 < comzgu> #sfEnyskaklamburi
09:25 < comzgu> za'a mi vitsa
09:26 < selpahi> do xamsku gi'e ku'i stace gi'e ze'e xalbo
09:26 < comzgu> la'e zo .emna cu ka termu'i
09:26 < comzgu> zo .ämna
09:27 < comzgu> zo cinki mo xe'e
09:27 < selpahi> mi pu pensi zo larva
09:27 < comzgu> xu zo .larvig. slabu do
09:27 < selpahi> ka xalbo ja bebna
09:28 < selpahi> no'e slabu
09:28 < comzgu> ie
09:28 < comzgu> zo'oi kinkig slabu xu
09:29 < selpahi> na go'i
09:29 < comzgu> nandu fa lo jbobo nu skicu
09:29 < selpahi> .i xu zo melski darno zoi gy. euphemism .gy
09:30 < comzgu> ua nai zo melski valsi fi ma
09:30 < selpahi> lo jbobau
09:30 < selpahi> .i lujvo
09:30 < comzgu> ua ru'e
09:31 < selpahi> pilno lo melbi valsi lo ka skicu lo na'e melbi
09:31 < selpahi> .i skicu lo fegli fo lo melbi
09:31 < comzgu> ba'a nai da no'u la jongausib cu mu'umgu da pe ra'a zo'oi eloquent
09:31 < comzgu> en: ba'urxausku
09:31 < mensi> ba'urxausku [< bacru xamgu cusku ≈ Utter fine mention] = b1=c1  (agent) eloquently speaks/verbally expresses  x1=c2
09:31 < mensi> (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) for audience c3, good/beneficial/nice for x2 by standard x3. |>>>
09:31 < mensi> jongausib
09:31 < comzgu> sramli si ra'amli
09:32 < selpahi> ua na'e drani fa zo xamgu .i ji'a zo bacru mo
09:32 < comzgu> cumki co nu mi na'e drani jimpe fi zo'oi euphism
09:32 < comzgu> mi ca jimpe
09:33 < comzgu> zo'oi eloquent na'e srana
09:33 < selpahi> go'i
09:33 < comzgu> ie zo mleski mapti
09:33 < comzgu> xagmu valsi
09:33 < comzgu> .e'e
09:34 < selpahi> ta'o zei ja'o do zanru zo xamzega
09:34 < comzgu> ma mupli lo mleski pe bau lo jbobau
09:34 < comzgu> ra'oi -zega cu mo
09:34 < comzgu> zelgau
09:35 < selpahi> ckaji lo ka na rafsi .i xamgu zei zenba zei gasnu
09:35 < selpahi> .i srana zoi ly .mz .ly
09:35 < comzgu> ŭaaaaa
09:36 < comzgu> .i ie mi zanru lo nu xamzega so'i da
09:36 < selpahi> la .got.alis. cu mo .i mi se cinri lo ri se gunka
09:36 < comzgu> mi penmi fi no da
09:36 < comzgu> slabu fa lo cmene ku po'o
09:37 < selpahi> xu do djuno lo du'u la .alis. ma kau gunka
09:37 < comzgu> na jun
09:37 < comzgu> .i'e pei mi se vacysai lo .itsa
09:37 < selpahi> ma cpana gi'e na cirla
09:38 < selpahi> .i .a'o do na pagbu lo sanmi
09:38 < selpahi> .i .i'e nai do se sanmi lo djapitsa
09:38 < comzgu> lo cilra cu cpana gi'e ku'i ja'a cirla
09:39 < comzgu> mi na cpana
09:39 < comzgu> lo spinaxa cu cpana
09:39 < selpahi> do xusra lo simsa
09:39 < comzgu> .u'i
09:39 < selpahi> lo spinaca je lo cirla (to xu cirlrbri toi)
09:39 < selpahi> #cirlrbri
09:40 < comzgu> pe'i ro da ro de va'o lo nu da de vacysai zo'u de da citka
09:40 < comzgu> mi na zanru lo smudu'a be zo vacysai
09:40 < comzgu> mi xarnu
09:40 < selpahi> (to pagbu lo mi iurnaiste fa zo cirlrbri toi)
09:40 < comzgu> ua
09:40 < comzgu> xu do na iunmo tau zo cirlbrbrblrbi
09:40 < selpahi> go'i
09:41 < comzgu> je'e doi na zei go'i zei prenu
09:41 < selpahi> je'e xarnu .i pe'i pei ro sanmi cu sanmi lo citka be ri
09:41 < comzgu> doi drapli be lo jbobau
09:41 < comzgu> pe'i .y .y
09:41 < selpahi> .i cizra mi .i xu va'o lo nu no da citka cu na sanmi
09:41 < comzgu> .i ku'i lo vacysai cu frica .u'i
09:41 < selpahi> ua zo'o
09:42 < comzgu> .i ku'i ko troci lo ka fanva zoi zoi pizza for dinner zoi
09:42 < selpahi> .i lu io nai doi jukpa ti na sanmi .i ki'u bo no da pu citka li'u
09:42 < comzgu> .i mi citka lo .itsa poi vacysai
09:42 < comzgu> .i flegli
09:42 < selpahi> .i mi citka lo cidjyrpitsa poi vacysai
09:43 < comzgu> mi na nelci
09:43 < mensi> mi mutce nelci i ie
09:43 < selpahi> .i mi citka lo vacysai noi cidjyrpitsa
09:43 < comzgu> .i mi se vacysai lo pitsa ge'e
09:43 < selpahi> .i lo se citka be mi be'o noi vacysai cu cidjyrpitsa
09:43 < comzgu> .i mi djuno
09:43 < selpahi> .i lo mi se vacycti cu cidjyrpitsa
09:43 < comzgu> .i ko tinju'i pe'u ko
09:43 < comzgu> .i mi se vacydja lo pitsa
09:43 < selpahi> .i mi vacycti lo pitsa
09:44 < comzgu> zo vacycti mi nelci
09:44 < selpahi> .e'u lo citka na pagbu zo cidja
09:44 < selpahi> .i te lanme
09:44 < selpahi> ru'e
09:44 < comzgu> ge'e
09:44 < comzgu> xu do ja'a co'e
09:44 < selpahi> lo ka go'i cu ka mo
09:45 < comzgu> xu lo se cidja cu se na'inmo do
09:45 < comzgu> xu do naildu'a zo seldja
09:45 < comzgu> na'ildu'a*
09:45 < selpahi> lo ka cidja cu ka lo nu ko'e citka ko'a cu xamgu (to sa'e nai sai toi) ko'e
09:46 < selpahi> la .xorxes. ma jinvi
09:46 < selpahi> jbo: cidja
09:46 < mensi> cidja = x1 se pilno x2 lo ka citka gi'e stali lo ka jmive kei gi'e te sabji lo nejni gi'e banro |>>> pilno; citka;
09:46 < mensi> stali; jmive; sabji; nejni; banro |>>> xorxes
09:47 < selpahi> .ei jmina zo na'o
09:47 < comzgu> na'e se pilno xu
09:47 < comzgu> na'o se pilno xu
09:47 < comzgu> nu'o se pilno xu
09:47 < comzgu> cu'e se pilno xu
09:47 < comzgu> cu'e mo
09:47 < selpahi> pe'i lo du'u na citka ko'a na natfa lo du'u ko'a cidja
09:47 < selpahi> natfe *
09:47 < comzgu> pe'i
09:48 < comzgu> mi tugni
09:48 < comzgu> pe'i ru'e lo ka cidja cu ka nu'o se citka
09:48 < selpahi> lo canre na cidja lo remna
09:48 < comzgu> .u'i
09:48 < comzgu> .a'u
09:48 < comzgu> .a'a
09:48 < selpahi> .i zu'u nai zo'o so'i cifnu ja verba cu citka lo canre
09:49 < selpahi> .i ja'o na nu'o se citka
09:49 < selpahi> zo'o
09:49 < comzgu> je'e
09:49 < comzgu> mi do tugni
09:49 < comzgu> do drani
09:49 < comzgu> ja'o mi vacycti lo .itsa
09:49 < selpahi> plixau valsi
09:50 < selpahi> .i cijyjvo ji'a
09:50 < selpahi> .i doi la selckiku do mo :/
09:50 < comzgu> na djuno ge'e nai sai
09:50 < selpahi> vancti si
09:51 < selpahi> cercti .i cerctin
09:51 < comzgu> cmene
09:51 < comzgu> .a'o kanro .i .a'o de'a jbopre vau po'o
09:51 < selpahi> ko'oi mrilu
09:51 < comzgu> vi'o
09:52 < comzgu> ko'oi jmina zo cijyjvo
09:53 < selpahi> mi ka'e go'i .i ku'i la selckiku cu finti ia
09:54 < comzgu> lisri do'e lo vlakra pagbu
09:54 < selpahi> ua bu'o
09:55 < comzgu> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/vacycti mo'u
09:55 < selpahi> pu ze'u ca'o smucpa
09:55 < Ilmen> za'a do nu'o jansu minde doi la selpa'i
09:55 < selpahi> .i'e
09:56 < comzgu> ma ma smucpa .i ki'a ru'e
09:56 < comzgu> zo smucpa cinri valsi ku'i
09:56 < Ilmen> ie
09:56 < selpahi> simsa lo ka troci lo ka co'a te smuni
09:57 < selpahi> lu lisri do'e lo vlakra pagbu li'u zo'u mi ze'a troci
09:57 < demize> hmm... "(0.4609047619047619, 'sutse', [0.5, 0.5, 0.42857142857142855, 0.5, 0.6666666666666666, 0.0])"
09:57 < comzgu> mi jmina lo finti lo vlakra be zo tcitigi
09:57 < comzgu> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/tcitigi
09:57 < selpahi> mi pu viska (to ji'a mi pu dragau toi)
09:58 < demize> (Made a quick transcription of Sweden in the various languages..)
09:58 < comzgu> je'e ki'e
09:58 < comzgu> ma toldra
09:58 < selpahi> sa'u mi jmina zo bacru
09:58 < selpahi> .i ko se xanri lo nu lo tcitigi na bacru .i cizra nu tigni
09:58 < comzgu> je'e jmina be fi lo te smudu'a
09:58 < selpahi> .i lo te tigni cu tirna no da
09:59 < comzgu> .i ju'o lo nu bacru cu vajni lo nu tcitigi
09:59 < selpahi> .i nu ba'e catlu lo tcidu
09:59 < gleki> demize: exclude existing gismu clashes from the analysis
09:59 < comzgu> do'oi demize xu do sfe'ero
10:00 < selpahi> är du svensk?
10:00 < selpahi> mi sruma tu'a na ku
10:00 < selpahi> .i .a'u xu jitfa sruma
10:01 < demize> gleki: It has a gismu list, but not sure how old.
10:01 < selpahi> zutse clashes with sutse
10:01 < comzgu> co'a go'oi sruma
10:01 < demize> comzgu: go'i
10:01 < selpahi> ua
10:02 < comzgu> ue
10:02 < selpahi> .u'a
10:02 < comzgu> mi ji'a sfe'ero
10:02 < comzgu> ma tcadu gi'e se xabju do
10:03 < demize> gleki: actually, seems it is rather up-to-date, but hmm... maybe it just doesn't take z/s into account..
10:03 < gleki> demize: did you use gimyzba? what were the command parameters?
10:04 < selpahi> Jag måste köpa vatten.
10:04 < demize> gleki: oh hmm, it seems it was killed by something. susti won.
10:04 < comzgu> Har du inte vatten i kranen?
10:04 < selpahi> .u'i ro da retsku lo mintu
10:04 < comzgu> natürlich
10:05 < gleki> anyway cultural gismu except lojbo are of no good
10:05 < comzgu> ...alle meiene Entchen noi lalxu limna va
10:05 < demize> gleki: I was just interested in what it would produce ^_^
10:05 < b_jonas> (hah, mixed languages)
10:06 < selpahi> Det har jag faktiskt, men familjen vill ha vatten med kolsyra.
10:06 < comzgu> Aaa, det är gott
10:06 < demize> selpahi: soda streamer? :p
10:06 < selpahi> eww
10:06 < selpahi> .u'i
10:06 < b_jonas> what
10:07 < selpahi> su'o lo co'e pu ze'i zukpei lo ka .erve
10:07 < comzgu> vagyók sved .y
10:07 < comzgu> vagyok svéd maybe
10:07 < comzgu> :D
10:07 < selpahi> szia!
10:08 < comzgu> visla
10:08 < selpahi> Mennem kell
10:09 < selpahi> Jag måste gå nu.
10:09 < comzgu> ca tinju'i
10:09 < comzgu> Okej
10:09 < comzgu> hejrå
10:09 < b_jonas> co'o selpa'i
10:09 < comzgu> ha det gööööt
10:09 < comzgu> t
10:09 < b_jonas> to zo .erve poi valsi cu cnimo toi
10:09 < selpahi> la'a mi kommer tillbaka snart
10:09 < selpahi> jbo:erve
10:09 < mensi> erve = x1 te vecnu x2 fi x3 fo x4
10:10 < comzgu> banli valsi
10:10 < comzgu> pu'i go'i
10:11 < Ilmen> .ai pei ze'a lo nau kelka'u na minde fa do doi la selpa'i
10:11 < selpahi> cu'i
10:11 < b_jonas> i .ie co'u facki fi'o se tcidu la jbovlaste
10:19 < comzgu> "May need mosra tanru"
10:29 < gleki> when i first asked in #tatoeba how i can quickly tag sentences i got a reply like i should write a script to do that since nobody else would care. After that I double checked whether it was really #tatoeba, not #lojban channel.
10:29 < gleki> :P
10:33 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 145 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 142 normal]
10:34 < gleki> In La Bangu I removed both {tigra} and {tirxu} and added {bramlatu} instead. {cinfo} is retained, though.
10:34 < urka> the Level 0 build script does not work at all :(
10:37 < gleki> urka: then drop this project. if u have time better to think how to format books in general
10:37 < gleki> using docbook or whatever
10:37 < gleki> or latex
10:37 < urka> je'e
10:38 < gleki> if you have the standards and simple examples of usage of them then i'll probably have to start
10:38 < gleki> as of now the only thing i can do is to convert Level0 to Crash Course format.
10:38 < gleki> si standard
11:26  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: " lo ka kanro ruxse'i cu srana lo ka kanro menli e lo ka kanro xadni  " .i  mu'o           #lojban #soul eater anime [http://bit.ly/1Pv7q5l]
11:31 < comzgu> mo'u mrilu fi la .skik.
11:35 < gleki> la skik ca mo
11:47 < urka> gleki: mi to'e djuno .i xu za'ure'u canci
11:47 < urka> .a'o la mabla na xrukla
11:52 < zgulu> xu cnino kelka'u .a'u
11:53 < zgulu> ua
11:53 < zgulu> snidu fa li pamu
11:53 < zgulu> co'a co'a co'a
11:54 < zgulu> .oi
11:54 < zgulu> la .urk cu konvoii
11:55 < zahlman> lo se irci xu
11:55 < zgulu> .y
11:55 < zgulu> ki'a
11:55 < zgulu> lo se irci cu mo
11:56 < zahlman> en: irci
11:56 < mensi> irci = x1 is an IRC user on channel x2 in network x3. |>>> Add a me'e place for nickname, or a fi'o tcana place for
11:56 < mensi> server, if needed. Erase x2 using zi'o if no channel is involved. |>>> daniel
11:56 < zgulu> mi djuno fi zo irci
11:56 < zgulu> .i ku'i si'au do na djuno
11:56 < zahlman> y
11:56 < urka> coi .i pu zi zi cnino kelka'u
11:57 < zgulu> drani
11:57 < urka> voikla la .enkoraj. la .baxas.
11:57 < zgulu> lo do jenmi ba spoja
11:57 < urka> mu'i ma
11:57 < urka> si si ri'e ma
11:57 < urka> si si ri'a ma
11:57 < zahlman> ua
11:57 < zahlman> cmene
11:57 < urka> ma ba pojygau
11:57 < zgulu> na kakne lo ka rivbi fa'a da
11:57 < zgulu> xu
11:57 < zahlman> coi la urk
11:58 < zgulu> ua
11:58 < zgulu> ka'e rivbi fi tu'a la .kvin.tcarlot.saund.
11:58 < zgulu> .oi ru'e sai
12:06 < Ilmen> coi
12:06 < Ilmen> .a'e nai
12:06 < zahlman> coi ibu
12:06 < zahlman> do tatpi ma
12:07 < Ilmen> mi pu nu jansu kei lanli ze'a lo poi'i do na ka'e se xanri
12:08 < zahlman> uanai
12:08 < Ilmen> la nu jansu cu selkei
12:09 < zahlman> ua
12:09 < zahlman> la .nunjas. slabu mi
12:12 < zahlman> do lanli sa'e xu tu'a lo kelvelpu'e
12:13 < zahlman> pe'i nandu
12:14 < urka> ua mi po'o jai sarcu fai lo ka marbi jdice
12:15 < zgulu> go'i
12:15 < urka> mi co'a me la .danr. vau .u'i
12:15 < zgulu> ua nai
12:15 < zgulu> ba'a mi me dy
12:15 < Ilmen> je'u mi pu kanpe lo nu la .xorxes. jo'u la .durkas. cu zukte lo palci zmadu mutce
12:16 < zgulu> palmau
12:16 < zgulu> djica lo ka tcidu lo cizra xu .i ko'oi tcidu se ju'oi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_and_Jennifer_Gibbons
12:16 < Ilmen> la .xorxes. cu tolcri la .floridas. i ku'i vindu se dunda
12:17 < zgulu> za'a la florida cu co'u jitro la .miiamim.
12:18 < Ilmen> .e'a la .xorxes. cu denmi jmaji la .floridas.
12:18 < Ilmen> lo prali ba cmamau lo tolprali
12:18 < Ilmen> .u'i
12:19 < urka> ua nai ri'a ma la .vanko'uver. na ka'e mrakla la .xuuandyfukas.
12:20 < Ilmen> ua nai
12:20 < urka> xu ka'enaiku da gunta de .ije da jinga .i de mrakla lo pu se zvati be da
12:20 < Ilmen> lo randa cliva na ka'e klama lo poi'i lo gunta cu klama fi ke'a
12:20 < Ilmen> doi la .urka
12:21 < urka> ie mi co'a sanji
12:21 < urka> za'a mi cuxna fi lo pamei .i uo
12:21 < urka> zbasu kelka'u co'a nau
12:22 < Ilmen> .i'a
12:22 < Ilmen> .i ku'i ko na gasnu lo nu sutra dukse .i mi surla djica ca nau
12:22 < Ilmen> .u'i
12:23 < urka> .u'i
12:24 < zgulu> ua la .xorx. cu se tutra 17 da
12:24 < urka> lo cacra be li cixa
12:24 < urka> X vlirai
12:24 < urka> ku'i ka'e zbasu lo cimei po'o
12:24 < zgulu> ki'u lo nu mi klama vy xy
12:25 < urka> ie mi facki
12:25 < zgulu> na ka'e rivbi fi tu'a lo gunta krasi
12:25 < zgulu> ie
12:25 < zgulu> go'oi ci
12:25 < zgulu> cinri
12:25 < urka> lo remei na ka'e selzva basysi'u sepi'onai lo blobei
12:26 < zgulu> je'e sko'opu fristaile
12:26 < zgulu> drani
12:26 < urka> xu sko'opu nabmi .i pe'i drani
12:27 < zgulu> na djuno
12:28 < urka> sei banro na cumki fa lo nu gaje na pilno lo blobei gi lo remei cu simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u basti lo ka ce'u se zvati
12:29 < zgulu> ua ru'e jetnu .i drata krinu
12:29 < zgulu> xym
12:29 < zgulu> .i drani krinu
12:30 < zgulu> do drani ŭi
12:30 < zgulu> mi toldra
12:30 < zgulu> .i ku'i mi ckaji so'o drata be lo ka drani be'o zabna
12:30 < zgulu> .i lo ka cmene lo so'i mei cu mupli
12:31 < zgulu> se cmene
12:31 < zgulu> le'ai
12:34 < Ilmen> .ai mi surla co'o
12:36 < urka> co'ok
13:08  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: A law of the Internet expressed in #Lojban .i ro da poi fukpi se xamsku zo'u de poi kibropre zi'e poi krici di poi zmajavdu'i da lo ka mutce [http://bit.ly/1JUIIN6]
13:14  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: A law of the Internet expressed in #Lojban: .i zo'o ro da poi fukpi se xamsku zo'u de kibro prenu poi krici di poi zmajavdu'i da lo ka mutce [http://bit.ly/1GU38jj]
13:14  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: I wasn't sure how to render "satire" or "parody" in #Lojban, so I went with {fukpi se xamsku}. [http://bit.ly/1JUJzgW]
13:36 < Ilmen> coi
14:52 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:34 < snanu> coi la .ilme.
15:34 < mensi> snanu: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: "native check" is a tag for sentences that are probably poor style Lojbn or just plain
15:34 < mensi> wrong translation | 2015-05-08T06:00:36.125Z
15:34 < mensi> snanu: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: {ca'a} is demonstrated activity. like you are a president but right now you act as a
15:34 < mensi> parent - you demonstrate this activity. {ca'o} shows that event is in progress. the two particles dont imply each other.
15:34 < mensi> | 2015-05-08T06:16:56.030Z
15:36 < snanu> zabna .i ki'e
15:37 < snanu> en: tarmi
15:38 < mensi> tarmi = x1 [ideal] is the conceptual shape/form of object/abstraction/manifestation x2 (object/abstract). |>>> Also
15:38 < mensi> pattern; x1 is the mathematical or theoretical ideal form, while x2 is an object/event manifesting that form; e.g.
15:38 < mensi> circular/circle-shaped (= cukseltai) vs. circle (=cuktai, while cukla alone is ambiguous); model (= ci'ersaptai, saptai,
15:38 < mensi> ci'ersmitai, smitai).  See alse nejni, te marji for physical shape, tapla, bliku, kubli, kurfa, cukla, mapti, morna,
15:38 < mensi> sarlu. |>>> officialdata
15:41 < snanu> does x2 of tarmi have to actually exist? Like if I say la'e zoi gy Klein Bottle gy tarmi, does that imply there is an actual manifestation of a klein bottle?
15:42 < durka42> cinrytce preti
15:42 < durka42> IMO klein bottles can exist in the universe of discourse, so it may not matter :p
15:43 < pilno> So, I know you can abstract a {bridi} with {nu} e.g. {lo nu mi molgle}, and I know you can ellipsize x1 if it's implied by context e.g. {mi se pluka lo nu molgle}, but can you ellipsize x1 if there's also an x2, by putting it after the selbri? e.g. {mi se pluka lo nu molgle do}
15:43 < pilno> with {mi} being the implied x1 there
15:45 < durka42> yes
15:46 < pilno> cool, thanks
15:50 < snanu> doi la durka do'u cinri spuda
16:04 < pilno> naru'e tcika lo vacysai
16:07 < pilno> mi ba citka lo .indianas. cidja
16:08 < durka42> ma .indiianas. cidja
16:08 < zahlman> ibu cy ckaji ma
16:08 < pilno> 'cuz diphthong?
16:08 < zahlman> .i cpina xu
16:09 < durka42> no glides after consonants
16:09 < pilno> I see
16:12 < durka42> ja'a tcika lo vacysai fo mi
16:12 < durka42> do xabju ma
16:12 < durka42> la .indiianas. xu .u'i
16:16 < pilno> mi xabju .teksas.
16:18 < pilno> tcika lo cliva .i co'o
16:19 < durka42> co'o
18:03 < pilno> doi .durka42. .i xo do mintu la .burkadurka. la .reddit.
18:04 < durka42> go'i .i xu do me CRW
18:05 < durka42> ua do cusku zo xo .i ro mi mintu la'oi burkadurka vau .u'i
18:08 < pilno> go'i mi'e .crwcomposer.
18:09 < pilno> go'i mi'e la'oi crwcomposer
18:10 < durka42> coi
18:10 < durka42> ko minde la'oi "/nick crwcomposer" ja lo simsa
18:11 < durka42> .y
18:11 < durka42> sa
18:11 < durka42> ko cusku la'oi "/nick crwcomposer" ja lo simsa
18:12 < durka42> .i'e
18:13 < crwcomposer> ta pu snada
18:35  * nuzba @Gabriel47795601: Quero fazer um curso de lojban. [http://bit.ly/1QuQqOP]
18:37 < durka42> porto .u'e
18:41 < crwcomposer> huehuehue
18:55 < crwcomposer> xo lo kibycpa jbovlaste cu zasti
18:59 < durka42> xu*
18:59 < crwcomposer> whoops
18:59 < durka42> ka'e kibycpa lo te pruce pe bau XML .iku'i lo nu tcidu cu nandu lo remna
19:00 < durka42> mi stidi lo nu pilno la vlasisku ja lo .irci sampre
19:00 < durka42> vlasisku.lojban.org
19:00 < durka42> ji'a!
19:01 < durka42> la .sutsis. na porpi va'o lo nu na jorne lo kibro
19:02 < durka42> this works offline: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en
19:05 < crwcomposer> neat, thanks
19:06 < crwcomposer> Are jbovlaste and vlasisku and la sutsis all pulling from the same database? Is there some single authoritative list of official Lojban words?
19:07 < phma> Jbovlaste is where one enters words; vlasisku reads a copy of the jbovlaste database.
19:08 < durka42> yeah all these nicer interfaces and bots read jbovlaste's XML export files
19:08 < durka42> until we replace them all with vlasisku 2.0 mwahaha
19:09 < durka42> la mensi may become self-aware before then...
19:19 < crwcomposer> it's funny to me that Lojban has a word for analingus but not Indian. When I wanted to say I was eating Indian food for dinner, it referred to a word for Native American.
19:20 < crwcomposer> I guess ass licking takes priority over 1.2 billion people...
19:20 < phma> there's xindo (Indian from India
19:21 < phma> ), bindo (Indonesia), and rindo (American Indian).
19:21 < durka42> yeah, someone entered a lujvo one time, so obviously we don't care about other cultures
19:21  * durka42 rolls eyes
19:21 < durka42> (you're not the first to make similar facile comparisons)
19:23 < crwcomposer> heh, I wasn't actually offended, just joking around. But Indian doesn't return xindo in jbovlaste
19:24 < phma> And if you want to be more specific, you can say {tsalagi}, {apsaroke}, etc.
19:25 < durka42> yeah it's a little strange {xindo} doesn't list "Indian" as a gloss wor
19:25 < durka42> it says it in the notes sort of
19:25 < durka42> vlaste: xindo (n)
19:25 < vlaste> xindo (notes) = Defaults to not include Urdu; Indian (Bharat) nationality may be implied (when constrained by {xingu'e}).; See also {srito}, {xurdo}, {bengo}.
19:27 < crwcomposer> Yeah, I can see that now, but when I didn't know the word {xindo} existed, searching Indian only returns the word for Native American
19:28 < phma> xindo xinmo cinmo
19:30 < durka42> we should add a gloss to {xindo}
19:30  * durka42 tries to imagine what Wuzzy would say if he sees "word originally entered by officialdata was modified" in the news feed :p
19:32 < crwcomposer> If you do, I can say I helped contribute something to the language, simply due to the fact I was feeling like ethnic food one Friday
19:32 < durka42> :)
19:32 < durka42> lo xindo cidja cu ja'a banli
19:35 < crwcomposer> pu kukte
19:36 < durka42> ui dai
19:36 < durka42> phenny: pe'i pei xamgu sidbo fa lo nu jmina
19:39 < durka42> y
19:40 < durka42> phma: pe'i pei xamgu sidbo fa lo nu jmina
20:11 < crwcomposer> xu lo cukta fo verba cu zasti
20:12 < crwcomposer> le mlatu cu dasni le sedyta'u
20:14 < Bright> linnean fu'ivla
20:14 < phma> coi
20:14 < Bright> co'o
20:19 < durka42> wat
20:25 < durka42> crwcomposer: I think you wanted to say {xu lo cukta be fo lo verba cu zasti}
20:30 < crwcomposer> whoops, yep, forgot to convert verba to a sumti
20:33 < crwcomposer> thanks for the help
20:33 < durka42> je'e
20:55 < durka42> crwcomposer: and yes! there are some translations anyway. check out http://mw.lojban.org/papri/te_gerna_la_lojban
20:59  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: I'll try condensing that last twit I flicked off as soon as I find the Lojban word for Esperanto. [http://bit.ly/1AM6gvy]
21:01 < Spheniscine> coi
21:05 < durka42> coi
21:13 < Spheniscine> ma xu cnima'o lo ka kucli
21:14 < _mukti_> .e'u lu .a'u ro'e li'u
21:14 < mensi> _mukti_: cu'u la'o gy.selpahi.gy.: mi viska lo do xe fanva pe la'e lu zbasu lo titla nunsenva ti li'u .i mi zanru |
21:14 < mensi> 2015-05-05T19:49:23.878Z
21:15 < _mukti_> .u'i
21:15 < durka42> coi .kebek.
21:16 < _mukti_> mensi: doi selpahi .i mi troci lo nu sanga ji'a
21:16 < mensi> _mukti_: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.selpahi.gy. di'a cusku da
21:16 < durka42> ua
21:16 < durka42> xu do pu'i sanga da
21:16 < _mukti_> mi troci sanga
21:18 < _mukti_> kukte kukte senva da .i mi toltu'i te ca'i ma .i litru lo munje .e lo xamsi ka .i ro lo prenu cu sisku de
21:22 < durka42> zo ka xu
21:22 < _mukti_> rimni
21:23 < _mukti_> hmm... but I was thinking "ku"
21:23 < _mukti_> rats
21:23 < durka42> ba ca ia
21:24 < Spheniscine> cinri ke fanva sanga doi mukti
21:25 < _mukti_> da djica lo nu pilno do
21:25 < _mukti_> .i do djica lo nu se pilno do
21:25 < _mukti_> su
21:25 < _mukti_> .i da djica lo nu se pilno do
21:25 < _mukti_> .i da djica lo nu malpli do
21:25 < _mukti_> .i da djica lo nu se malpli
21:27  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: @RSG_VILLENA @Supperdude9    Getting back into Lojban and you can mash words together:    multolcpanyglegaugle : v. to fuck the fuck right off [http://bit.ly/1F52nXP]
21:31 < Spheniscine> mo fa ti poi prenu
21:33  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: Lojban: Now you can very precisely tell someone to shove it up their arse, and the exact methodology, in one word. [http://bit.ly/1EWnEld]
21:34 < Spheniscine> mi na nelci la tuityr
21:34 < mensi> sei mi stace mi na mutce nelci
21:35 < Spheniscine> go'i ma
21:36 < Spheniscine> na mutce nelci ma
21:37 < durka42> la mensi cu sampre
21:37 < Spheniscine> ua
21:42 < Spheniscine> pavono lerfu na'e banzu lo nu pluja cusku
21:44 < Spheniscine> tende lo ka malbi'o lo skuda'a
21:53 < Spheniscine> lo nu skuda'a le'ai
21:56 < durka42> ie
21:59 < gleki> ah, i have sometimes problems understanding whether a tweet was in Spanish or Portuguese.
22:01 < gleki> So I just again bumped into a disadvantage of sutsis. it doesnt show selmaho and can't list all cmavo from a given subselmaho. vlasisku can!
22:03 < niek> coi ro do
22:03 < durka42> coi
22:03 < niek> .i jbedei mi
22:03 < Spheniscine> coi la niek
22:03 < durka42> di'ai sai
22:03 < Spheniscine> di'ai
22:03 < durka42> xu salci
22:03 < niek> uisai ki'e
22:03 < niek> milxe salci .i u'i
22:03 < durka42> xu nanba ju salci
22:04 < durka42> gleki: simlu co na'e nandu co jmina
22:04 < niek> go'i
22:05 < gleki> durka42: su'oroiku lo ni lazni cu zmadu lo ni nandu
22:05 < durka42> .i'i
22:09 < _mukti_> mi nelci .i ie mi nelci
22:10 < gleki> i ba'e mi na nelci
22:10 < mensi> ba'e mi nelci i ie mi nelci
22:10 < gleki> oi'o
22:12 < gleki> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/post.html?new=1;valsi=28633
22:12 < gleki> Error during compilation of /srv/jbovlaste/current/post.html:
22:13 < Spheniscine> sei mo
22:14 < gleki> i ta'o ma krasi zo iancu
22:15 < Spheniscine> ie .i di'ainai doi la mensi oi'o
22:17 < durka42> ii ma krasi lo nunsre
22:18 < Spheniscine> doi gleki: zo ia joi zo nitcu pe'i ru'e
22:19 < durka42> Perl API version v5.16.0 of Text::CharWidth does not match v5.18.0 at /usr/share/perl5/XSLoader.pm line 92.
22:19 < durka42> o_O
22:19 < durka42> did someone upgrade Perl on vrici?
22:20 < durka42> _mukti_, rlpowell
22:21 < Spheniscine> la'oi /me na mapti lo jbobau
22:21 < _mukti_> I'm not aware of an upgrade, but I agree that's suspicious
22:21 < _mukti_> Jbovlaste runs on jukni, though, not vrici
22:22 < durka42> right
22:22 < durka42> I probably don't have privileges to see the package log on vrici...
22:22 < _mukti_> Let me see if I can patch that module
22:22 < pilno> oi lo irci kibyca'o cazi spofu
22:22 < durka42> ka .blam.
22:25 < Spheniscine> sa'ei kablam sa'ei kapaux sa'ei bucccc
22:28 < _mukti_> durka42: Installed. Does post work now?
22:28 < _mukti_> new error?
22:30 < Spheniscine> oi mi snuti spofygau ti poi me'oi http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ci%27oi?bg=1;langidarg=2
22:31 < Spheniscine> lo nalylatmo lerfu cu spofybi'o
22:34 < Spheniscine> za'a mi ka'enai cikre
22:36 < Spheniscine> [It's weird, when I click edit, the characters show up fine, but when I submit it's all messed up]
22:37 < Spheniscine> mabla mojdibake
22:39 < Spheniscine> mabla .iunicod
22:40 < _mukti_> Ok, jbovlaste should be resuscitated
22:41 < Spheniscine> mabla fa pyhypy
22:41 < _mukti_> ie mabla
22:41 < Spheniscine> [What do I do? Resubmit it?]
22:45 < gleki> yes
22:45 < Spheniscine> It's still broken
22:45 < gleki> _mukti_: robin puzi upgraded his servers
22:46 < _mukti_> I see that. Jbovlaste broke because I installed the I18N text wrap module outside of the package system.
22:46 < _mukti_> I reinstalled it using packages, so it should not break next upgrade.
22:46 < Spheniscine> ua
22:47 < gleki> indeed, when editing the text looks fine
22:47 < gleki> _mukti_: do u see the error? http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ci'oi
22:48 < _mukti_> gleki: Garbled characters in the English definition?
22:48 < gleki> yes
22:49 < gleki> wait but Russian is fine
22:50 < _mukti_> Curious. Is this widespread, or is ci'oi uniquely affected?
22:50 < gleki> i noticed this only today
22:50 < gleki> at least several months ago it was okay
22:51 < gleki> notice that when editing symbols look okay
22:51 < gleki> shall i try resaving the Russian definition to see what happens?
22:52 < _mukti_> Sure, and if you have a moment, please file a bug to remind me. lo kanla be mi cu pu'o ganlo
22:54 < gleki> it became much much worse
22:56 < gleki> https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/164
22:56 < gleki> .title
22:56 < phenny> gleki: Saving definitions with NON-ASCII characters garbles them in view mode · Issue #164 · lojban/jbovlaste · GitHub
22:56 <@rlpowell> _mukti_: Oh, nice!
22:56 <@rlpowell> (the package install)
22:56 < _mukti_> Yes, I installed the previous version via cpanm, so it didn't get the system upgrade.
22:57 < gleki> Spheniscine: so for now just ignore this garbling. other tools like mensi, sutsis and vlasisku although arent always up to date but dont garble characters
22:57 < gleki> mensi: ko cnino
22:57 < mensi> sei ca ca'o jai gau cnino be fai lo pe mi sorcu
22:57 < gleki> this is how you update mensi's db from jbovlaste
22:57 < mensi> i ba'o jai gau cnino
22:57 < gleki> en: ci'oi
22:58 < mensi> ci'oi = [COI2] Converts following cmevla or zoi-quote into psychomime.  |>>> Narrower term than tai'i. See also ci'o,
22:58 < mensi> cinmo, sa'ei, ki'ai. Examples in some languages. jpn: そわそわ (sowasowa): restlessly. nep: सुखदुख
22:58 < mensi> (sukhadukha): lit. happiness-sorrow; the human condition. eng: "zing", "yoink" |>>>
22:58 < mensi> gusnikantu
22:58 < gleki> wat
22:58 < gleki> Spheniscine: my fault. the problem is a bit worse
22:58 < gleki> :/
23:04 < _mukti_> sipna .i co'o
23:09 < Spheniscine> uu
23:29 < Spheniscine> My linguistic background: My first language is English (though with a noticeable accent), and I learned Malay and Chinese in my youth, though rather rusty nowadays. Lojban is the only constructed language I've tried to learn. I do notice a lot of the hints in the Lojban gismu due to the Chinese and English weighting
23:30 < Spheniscine> Occasionally my mind confuses Malay for Lojban... perhaps it's the similar phonology/orthography... usually catch it before making any mistakes though
23:31 < gleki> je'e
23:33 < Spheniscine> Couple of false friends... Malay <cinta> means {prami}. Malay <ganti> means {basti}
23:33 < gleki> once i created a list of English and spanish words that look like gismu
23:34 < gleki> i still have a function for quickly analysing lists of words but i no longer have such lists
23:36  * nuzba @uitki: Welcome!/en - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!/en by Gleki - /* Lojban around the world - other ways of communication */ [http://bit.ly/1zMIRyX]
23:37 < Spheniscine> {cinta} in Malay is <cat>, no idea what {ganti} in Malay is
23:37 < Spheniscine> They never taught me that in school :p
23:40 < Spheniscine> Malay c is /t∫/, so it was easy for me to get use to Lojban c being ∫
23:42 < Spheniscine> la'oi http://badconlangingideas.tumblr.com/ u'i
23:48 < Spheniscine> http://badconlangingideas.tumblr.com/post/116549159902/362 Darn you kids, by the time I learned the gismu now you come up with all these strange new zi'evla. Why do they have to make so many Pokemon {si} selbrivla :p
23:50 < Spheniscine> Just imagine having to catch {sipna} before you're allowed to sleep
23:52  * nuzba @lapegazus: ca lo pu zi nicte mi pamoi senva co #jbobau .i ku'i .u'i mi noda djuno .i #lojban [http://bit.ly/1EWAwYk]
23:53 < Spheniscine> lo cilce me zo sipna cu tolcanci
23:55 < Spheniscine> zo sipna cu tolcikna
23:56 < Spheniscine> {Meh, don't know how to distinguish fainted from un-awake/sleep}
23:57 < Spheniscine> {Ironic given my choice of selbri}
--- Day changed Sat May 09 2015
00:01 < selrun> coi rodo. It has been a while. I've been at a military base for the past fortnight.
00:02 < Spheniscine> coi selrun
00:04 < Spheniscine> How does the twitter-bot even work? Does it scan everything for lojbanic text?
00:07 < selrun> I thought it went by hash tag, but I'm not sure
00:08 < Spheniscine> Hm maybe
00:09 < Spheniscine> Maybe # should be {sei bu} zo'o
00:15 < Spheniscine> Kinda wish vlasisku would include experimental cmavo in the selma'o listings though
00:15 < Spheniscine> Oh it does
00:15 < Spheniscine> Derp
00:18 < Spheniscine> I've seen a "vonpaso xlura" around the anti-scam and scambaiting sites
00:20 < Spheniscine> I see you've switched to the "elemental system" for the days of the week... gonna be hard for me to remember lol
00:20 < Spheniscine> But the number system did clash with the Chinese I'm used to
00:20 < Spheniscine> I guess that's why it's dropped... different languages number them differently
00:21 < Spheniscine> Well it's mostly whether it's Sunday or Monday
00:24 < Spheniscine> Let's see... soldei and lurdei is easy enough
00:24 < Spheniscine> fire is extinguished by water, is sucked by wood, is chopped by metal, is... ?... by earth?
00:26 < Spheniscine> Doesn't quite match the Wu Xing
00:34 < Spheniscine> Metal breaks up earth. Pattern fail x.x
00:57 < selrun> .y ma ze'a fasnu
01:03 < Spheniscine> mi tavla fi lo cmene be loi jeftydei
01:09 < selrun> .ua ma cmene loi jeftydei .i mi na djuno ri
01:12 < Spheniscine> zo soldei ce'o zo lurdei ce'o zo fagydei ce'o zo jaurdei ce'o zo mudydei ce'o zo jimdey ce'o zo tedydei
01:12 < Spheniscine> jimdei le'ai
01:16 < gleki> # was proposed to be {li bu}
01:16 < gleki> Spheniscine: dont remember if i told you but for now i removed {tigra} from the basic list and added {bramlatu} instead
01:17  * Spheniscine shrugs
01:17 < Spheniscine> And yeah I know (at least, when I looked it up) I was joking :p
01:17 < Spheniscine> About {sei bu}
01:18 < selrun> xu zo soldei du zo'oi Monday
01:20  * nuzba @uitki: ASCII table keys names - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/ASCII_table_keys_names by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1Fblj9i]
01:21 < Spheniscine> zo soldei du zo'oi Sunday
01:22 < Spheniscine> zo lurdei du zo'oi Monday
01:24 < selrun> i'a ki'e la .spheniscine.
01:28 < Spheniscine> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/prokioni Found a CiV
01:30 < Spheniscine> ma krasi zo arxokuna
01:35 < gleki> rindo
01:36 < gleki> The word "raccoon" was adopted into English from the native Powhatan term, as used in the Virginia Colony. It was recorded on Captain John Smith's list of Powhatan words as aroughcun, and on that of William Strachey as arathkone.[9] It has also been identified as a Proto-Algonquian root *ahrah-koon-em, meaning "[the] one who rubs, scrubs and scratches with its hands".[10]
01:38 < Spheniscine> .ua
01:41 < selrun> .ua de'u cinri
01:50 < Spheniscine> You know I have a friend who really hates it when I say "Hm" to him over the Internet because he can't gauge my tone
01:52 <@Broca> Hm
01:53 < Spheniscine> Most of the time I just mean {je'e}; sometimes {a'u}
01:54 <@Broca> This time I meant ue ru'e :-)
01:55 < Spheniscine> I still need to try to remember the attitudinals. They're useful in theory but not when I have to search for it everytime I want to express something lol
02:03 < selrun> ie doi la spheniscine
02:16 < Spheniscine> Hm ilmentufa's parser treats cmevla and brivla the same
02:17 < Spheniscine> Oh no it doesn't. It dies if you use a cmevla as a selbri
02:18 < Spheniscine> Wait still works. Should finish my sentence before saying anything :p
02:39 < Spheniscine> Hm if cmevla is merged with brivla then stage 2 fu'ivla can just be a cmevla-ized version of the loanword
02:39 < Spheniscine> There is no need for <lo me la spagetis> or whatever when you can just say <lo spagetis>
02:40 < Spheniscine> Stage 3 might not be needed at all. It's long and ugly anyway
02:47 < Spheniscine> Even a beginner could do that
02:48 < Spheniscine> Of course when possible it should be naturalized into zi'evla, to avoid the mandatory pauses
02:54 < Spheniscine> mi milxe stedycro
02:56 < gleki> exp: cmevlas
02:56 < mensi> (CU [cmevlas VAU])
02:57 < Spheniscine> Yep, exactly like a brivla
02:57 < Spheniscine> exp: brivla
02:57 < mensi> (CU [brivla VAU])
02:57 < gleki> The disadvantages is that {la lojban noi mo} parses in a different way
02:57 < gleki> *are
02:57 < gleki> what else...
02:58 < Spheniscine> exp: la lojban noi mo
02:58 < mensi> ([la {lojban <noi (¹CU [mo VAU]¹) KUhO>} KU] VAU)
02:58 < gleki> va'i the first disadvantage is that cmevla are no longer auto-terminated
02:58 < gleki> i need to recall the second disadvantage
02:58 < Spheniscine> Oh right, as in <la lojban xamgu> no longer means what it used to did
02:59 < Spheniscine> Now it's no longer "Lojban is good", but "Lojban-good" as a name
03:00 < Spheniscine> So a cu would be mandatory
03:02 < gleki> ba'anai bu'o under this cmevla-brivla merge {zo lojban mo} and {la lojban mo} no longer parallel each other.
03:02 < gleki> well, they never fully paralleled each other anyway
03:02 < gleki> since {la} can take any number of cmevla and {zo} only one
03:03 < gleki> in Altatufa parser/corrector i want to be able to autodetect pre-merge and post-merge sentences
03:03 < gleki> but i need to delve into PEG again
03:21  * nuzba @laMudri: @lai_krtisfranks how do you translate vector independence into Lojban? [http://bit.ly/1H50p9f]
03:27 < Spheniscine> o.o
03:38 < gleki> personally i have total vector independence. because I dont use them.
03:42 < Spheniscine> .u'i
03:48 < Spheniscine> I wonder what happens if we try a "corrupt a wish" game in Lojban. There is no syntactic ambiguity, but there may be plenty of semantic wiggle-room. And of course, mistakes are sometimes made
03:51 < gleki> na slabu mi
03:53 < Spheniscine> It's a common forum game; you make a wish, then the next person acts as the "genie" and tries to interpret it in the way that would be worst for the wisher. Then he makes a wish as well
03:57 < gleki> try doing so in the next mumble voice chat
04:12 < Spheniscine> I kinda forgot how much spam jbovlaste generated :p
04:24 < Spheniscine> mi sipna co'o
04:27 < demize> Speaking of jbovlaste, wonder how hard it would be to fix UTF-8 real names.
04:31 < gleki> first one needs to fix this new bug with encoding
04:49 < zahlman> ... so if {zo bu} is "the word {bu}", how would you say "the symbol for {zo}"?
04:49 < Ilmen> exp: zo zo bu
04:49 < mensi> ([{<zo zo> bu} BOI] VAU)
04:50 < gleki> exp: zo bu bu
04:50 < mensi> ([{<zo bu> bu} BOI] VAU)
04:50 < gleki> sutra mleca fa mi
04:50 < zahlman> oh, that *does* work, hmm.
04:51 < zahlman> is there bracketing that lets me describe a letteral in multiple words?
04:51 < zahlman> (I asked about this before, but forgot.)
04:51 < Ilmen> there's the never-never-used "tei-foi"
04:51 < zahlman> en: tei
04:51 < mensi> tei = [TEI] composite letteral follows; used for multi-character letterals. |>>>
04:51 < mensi> officialdata
04:52 < zahlman> right, the one that people want to repurpose
04:52 < zahlman> but I don't think that would work for the intended purpose, e.g.
04:52 < Ilmen> sa'u I'm not very fond of the letteral system
04:52 < zahlman> "the symbol for the artist formerly known as Prince"
04:53 < Ilmen> moreover letterals usually stand as pronouns, unless they're used with me'o
04:53 < Ilmen> for letteral pronouns, letters outside the Lojban alphabet are hardly useful
04:56 < Ilmen> Moreover, {me'o cy} is to stand for what exactly? The vocal sound [ʃ]? The Latin letter "c"? The equivalent Cyrillic letter?
04:56 < pilno> co'i ro do
05:02 < Ilmen> coi la pilno
05:14 < gleki> {me'o cy} is text
05:37 < zgulu> -bul-
05:44 < zgulu> buldozer
06:16 < gleki> LIVLABOT: experimental support for displaying and searching subselmaho in English sutsis http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/UI3a
06:17 < demize> That's cool
06:18 < gleki> that was the only thing i missed in sutsis compared to vlasisku
06:20 < gleki> The front page of vlasisku http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ has such funny things like displaying all gismu at once and a cloud of words. But I'm not sure how they can be useful.
06:21 < gleki> Also wildcard search is nice but I think it's too advanced. I could implement it, though.
06:23 < demize> Yeah, the cloud isn't really too useful, but it looks sort of cool. ;)
06:24 < gleki> I dont think it has any relation to the actual dump of jbovlaste. Why is LE so big? Some frequency dictionary used?
06:26 < gleki> But OpenSearch support can be done
06:34 < demize> Hmm, repo doesn't say how the scales were actually created
06:35 < demize> Just says that Twey made them.
06:35 < demize> +    - Twey, for compiling the grammatical class usage scales.
06:35 < demize> mmm
06:39 < gleki> If you anything interesting in other software no mater whether it's Lojbanic or not let me know. Maybe I can implement something.
06:39 < gleki> *If you find
07:39  * nuzba @uitki: La Muplis - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Muplis by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1Jyb38I]
07:39  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban timeline - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_timeline by Gleki - /* 2015 */ [http://bit.ly/1Jyb8JK]
08:44 < gleki> LIVLABOT: OpenSearch support added to English sutsis
08:48 < durka42> what's that mean? so I can add it to my firefox search bar?
08:49 < gleki> Firefox will show a + sign in the search bar so that u can add it to the list of search engines
08:49 < gleki> not a very important addition to be honest but since vlasisku has it...
08:50 < gleki> Actually from now on I wont probably ever use vlasisku unless someone starts adding new features to it.
08:50 < durka42> vi'o .u'i
08:52 < gleki> do u happen to know what is that cmavo cloud on the front page? where do weights come from?
08:54  * nuzba @uitki: Lojbanic Software - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojbanic_Software by Gleki - /* Dictionaries */ [http://bit.ly/1IrVYqB]
09:00 < gocti> sei xu su'o do djuno ma jalge lo nu pilno lo zo be ja zo bei stura poi na vasru su'o sumsmi
09:00 < gocti> exp: lo be bei broda
09:00 < mensi> ([lo {<be bei BEhO> broda} KU] VAU)
09:01 < gocti> .i sa'e ma tersu'i kancu jalge
09:05 < demize> gleki: Hmm, doesn't work in Chromium, which I think might be due to the description having a space before the X
09:06 < demize> ML declaration
09:06 < demize> Err, blank line*
09:09 < gleki> demize: indeed might not work. try again. i just changed something
09:09 < durka42> gleki: they are hardcoded in a file :/
09:09 < durka42> it should be proportional to the size of the selma'o, or something
09:10 < gleki> but what do they mean? frequency?
09:10 < durka42> dunno
09:10 < gleki> demize: i just tried in Firefox. I was able to search using it.
09:11 < gleki> durka42: that's why subselmaho search is enabled in sutsis and this cloud wont
09:11 < gleki> I'm out of any ideas of how to improve sutsis or whether i should improve it
09:13 < gleki> Btw, sutsis still doesnt look pretty on Firefox 17. Probably it doesnt understand "flex" in css.
09:14 < demize> gleki: Oh, I figured out why chromium doesn't add it
09:14 < demize> Chromium has prampt to add them, it will automatically add them under two conditions
09:15 < demize> doesn't have a prompt*
09:15 < demize> 1) If it's at the root of the domain. So if it was on eg sutsis.lojban.org/, or 2) When you submit a search
09:15 < demize> But since it's just done in JS there's no search submitted.
09:18 < gleki> so SHOULD i put it to the root?
09:18 < demize> I guess the only way to do it for sutsis would be to have a link at the footer or something that calls AddSearchProvider
09:18 < demize> Should? I donno. It would make it easier to reach for one. But since there are multiple languages each would need their own subdomain for that.
09:19 < demize> So a link would be needed for the search provider in chrome/ium, but hosting it under sutsis.lojban.org would make it more accessible too.
09:20 < gleki> you mean the xml file should be in the root, right?
09:20 < demize> No, the search page itself
09:20 < demize> Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
09:23 < demize> I think something like `<a href="#" title="en-sutsis" onclick="window.external.AddSearchProvider('http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/sisku.xml')">Add sutsis search provider</a>` should work
09:24 < demize> (Though I'm not much for JS, so who knows. Haven't tested it yet.)
09:27 < gleki> Added but appcache manifest wont show it so please clear it manually to see the link
09:28 < gleki> But it suggests 'mw.lojban.org' as the keyword which in most cases will be already taken by mw.lojban.org mediawiki
09:35 < demize> Hmm.. Annoying that it doesn't take the one(s) from the description.
09:39 < gleki> Annoying that I had to put a link onto the page which can be used at most once
09:39 < pilno> I forget, does {na'e} attatch to the next brivla, or the entire tanru?
09:40 < gleki> Can I using JS somehow hide this link if the search engine is already used by the browser?
09:40 < gleki> pilnext brivla or sumti
09:40 < gleki> oops
09:40 < gleki> where is pilno?
09:40 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 146 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 143 normal]
09:40 < Spheniscine> coi do mi pu do lo pilno
09:40 < Spheniscine> *du
09:41 < gleki> do pu du la pilno
09:41 < demize> Hmm
09:41 < demize> I wonder if chromium supports window.external.IsSearchProviderInstalled(url);
09:41 < Spheniscine> ki'e gleki
09:41 < gleki> I noticed that for some search fields right-clicking on them provides an option to add search engine. is this what you were talking about?
09:42 < Spheniscine> I guess you use {na'e ke broda brode} to attach to the tanru
09:42 < demize> i didn't, but that would be an useful alternative
09:44 < Spheniscine> I think there needs to be more documentation on how the various selma'o work. Basically a human-readable list of rules that include scope and appropriate famyma'o
09:47 < gleki> Actually the parser helps with that but yes.
09:47 < gleki> exp: na'e ke mo mo
09:47 < mensi> (CU [na'e {ke <mo mo> KEhE}] VAU)
09:47 < gleki> exp: na'e mo mo
09:47 < mensi> (CU [{na'e mo} mo] VAU)
09:47 < gleki> Examples are needed.
09:47 < Spheniscine> ie
09:48 < gleki> Replace these {mo} with something meaningful but so that both with {ke} and without it they mean something useful but different
09:48 < gleki> demize: finally i moved this link to right bottom of the page.
09:48 < Spheniscine> na'e barda mlatu
09:49 < Spheniscine> na'e ke barda mlatu
09:49 < gleki> demize: and this feature is tiresome and almost useless.
09:49 < Spheniscine> barda na'e mlatu
09:49 < gleki> Spheniscine: I'm afraid it impies {na'e mlatu} which means a cat-scale exists and {to'e mlatu} means something
09:49 < Spheniscine> All would mean different things
09:50 < Spheniscine> No, na'e just means "not x" negation
09:50 < Spheniscine> {na'e mlatu} means "non-cat"
09:50 < Spheniscine> lo gerku na'e mlatu
09:51 < gleki> So I wouldn't complain if someone created a theory of scale negation of cats. It's just that one needs to explain what {to'e mlatu} means. So I think better to replace with something that clearly has a scale
09:51 < gleki> exp: lo gerku na'e mlatu
09:51 < mensi> ([lo {gerku <na'e mlatu>} KU] VAU)
09:51 < gleki> a doggish not-cat
09:51 < demize> gleki: Well, I use things like it a lot, so it would be for me. Though I might look into adding it to duckduckgo so I can use that instead.
09:51 < Spheniscine> Oh left out the cu
09:51 < Spheniscine> lo gerku cu na'e mlatu
09:52 < gleki> I'd be glad to see examples with e.g. {prami = to'e xebni} i.e. with verbs that by their nature accept scales
09:52 < Spheniscine> Ah... just so that the examples are more extensible
09:52 < gleki> ta'o oh my so many COI-cmavo http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/COI
09:52 < saintcajetan> Just curious has there been anyone that has further the attempt to have some sort of working artificial translator from Lojban to other languages
09:52 < gleki> gloss: mi prami do
09:53 < mensi> Me love you
09:53 < gleki> vrici is again super-slow
09:53 < gleki> okay Robin seems to be doing something ti'e
09:53 < Spheniscine> I think the documention should be of the form
09:54 < Spheniscine> "What this selma'o is used for"
09:54 < Spheniscine> (i.e. nature of the cmavo in this selma'o, including subselma'o
09:54 < Spheniscine> "Syntax and scope"
09:54 < Spheniscine> which would include appropriate famyma'o
09:55 < Spheniscine> So yeah, purpose, syntax, and scope
09:56 < gleki> pls start right now! :)
10:00 < Spheniscine> That would be nice but there's a lot I forgot T.T
10:00 < Spheniscine> That is mostly why I wanted it
10:01 < Spheniscine> Maybe I have to crack open the CLL again, and correct for all those reforms
10:01 < gleki> If you think that I started writing the Crash Cours eknowing everything then you are wrong. Writing it is one of my methods of learning the language to deeper levels.
10:12 < Spheniscine> So I just create a new page in the Wiki?
10:14 < Spheniscine> Hm guess my old account doesn't work anymore
10:15 < Spheniscine> Submitted a request
10:16 < Spheniscine> {ju'i} whoever is responsible for handling those
10:30 < gleki> Spheniscine: approved
10:30 < gleki> durka42: maybe you can finally monitor thelogicallanguagegroup@gmail.com for new account requests in LMW?
10:31 < durka42> sure
10:31 < gleki> do u have the password?
10:31 < durka42> no
10:31 < gleki> hm
10:31 < durka42> don't paste it here please
10:38 < Spheniscine> How do I create a new page on the wiki
10:38 < Spheniscine> ?
10:38 < durka42> just search for the name of the page you want to create, I think
10:38 < durka42> if it doesn't exist it will offer you a link to create it
10:42 < Spheniscine> .ua ki'e
10:43 < Spheniscine> I still need to learn the Wiki markup
10:43 < gleki> Thi wiki uses the same engine as Wikipedia. The engine is called MediaWiki
10:43 < gleki> (in case you want to google markup)
10:45  * nuzba @uitki: lo selma'o ca'irvei (selma'o Documentation) - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation) by Spheniscine - Hello World [http://bit.ly/1Roy9Ee]
10:46 < Spheniscine> ... why do I keep getting errors when I click "edit"
10:46 < Spheniscine> Well, "edit source" works
10:47 < Spheniscine> Guess something wrong with the visual editor
10:49 < gleki> oh
10:50 < Spheniscine> What is the usual way to mark up Lojban text?
10:50 < Spheniscine> Do you make them monospace or something
10:50 < gleki> one moment
10:51 < Spheniscine> Hmm in your crash course you just make them bold... I suppose I could do that
10:51 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/proga:LMW_-_Lojbanic_MediaWiki#Basic_Wiki_Editing
10:51 < gleki> so either bold or {{vlapoi|lo|mlatu|cu|pinxe|lo|ladru}}
10:51 < gleki> for examples with translations there is {{mu|carvi|It's raining}}
10:52 < gleki> Or just look into the source of the Crash Course
11:00 < Spheniscine> .ie
11:19 < Spheniscine> Hm is there a glossary for common metalinguistic Lojban terms
11:20 < Spheniscine> bridi, selma'o etc
11:39 < durka42> I mean they are in the dictionary
11:42 < durka42> Ilmen: ko tolzbasu pa jenmi
11:42 < durka42> mi co'a fanza najnimre
12:15 < gleki> ti'e Parsoid i.e. VisualEditor now works again
12:19 < urka> ti'e dai
12:19 < urka> se'o dai xu
12:22 < gleki> CGM puzi cusku fi mi
12:22 < zgulu> zo tolzba .u'i
12:23 < zgulu> mleski fa do
12:23 < zgulu> .i se cusku fa ma doi la gekli
12:23 < urka> fa lo du VE di'a .akti
12:24 < urka> sedu*
12:25 < gleki> xu lo nu kelci la nu jasnu cu rinka lo nu do zenba lo ni jbocre
12:26 < zgulu> zo du'u xu
12:26 < zgulu> mi na go'oi zenba
12:26 < zgulu> doi la .urka
12:27 < zgulu> pe'i ro kelci cu zifre lo nu pensi ze'a lo mulno cacra be li ci xa
12:28 < zgulu> ka*
12:28 < urka> mi ja'a sai go'oi zenba pe'i
12:29 < urka> zo du'u zo'u mi jai cipra la .cekitaujauk.
12:29 < zgulu> .i mi na se zdile lo nu kelci .i ba'a krinu lo nu mi na'e zenba
12:29 < urka> .u'u
12:30 < zgulu> .i mi zo'u .audji lo ka kelci lo banli
12:30 < urka> ma balselkei
12:30 < urka> lo barduku xu
12:30 < zgulu> .i do na fuzme .i la nu jansu cu mabla co kelci ma'i mi
12:30 < zgulu> .i la .agrikolas. cu mupli lo banli
12:30 < urka> ua
12:30 < urka> mi nu'o kelci jecu ku'i banli ti'e
12:31 < zgulu> .i la'o gy. terra mystica .gy je la'o gy. puerto rico .gy. je la'o gy. twilligt struggle .gy vu'o vu'o ji'a pu'i banli
12:31 < zgulu> twillight*
12:31 < zgulu> twilight*
12:31 < zgulu> .y
12:31 < zgulu> do djuno
12:31 < zgulu> .u'i
12:32 < zgulu> .i la nu jansu cu jai te prali fai tu'a lo so'i nu ka'e casnu
12:33 < zgulu> .i ku'i lo nu sivni casnu cu jai te prali lo so'u mei
12:33 < urka> ie ru'e
12:33 < urka> mi pu kelci la gugdepuru
12:33 < geiwohuayizhiyan> la mikroskop cu banli baha
12:34 < zgulu> .i pe'i lo ni gubni nunsnu cu nilzendu'i lo ni ma'a zenba lo ka banli
12:34 < zgulu> mi na se slabu la .mikroskop.
12:34 < zgulu> xu do se pluka tau la gugdepuru doi la burka
12:34 < urka> go'i
12:34 < zgulu> xamgu
12:35 < urka> lo mi bruna cu ponse
12:35 < zgulu> zabna co bruna
12:35 < zgulu> ca lo cabdei mi cilre lo du'u zo burka pu zi co'a se vlaste be bau lo sfe'ero
12:36 < zgulu> lo catni vlaste
12:36 < urka> ku'i .oi ro'a lo se jitro selkeikantu cu bunre prenu
12:36 < urka> xu srana zo kosta
12:36 < zgulu> mi .oinmo ki'u lo mintu
12:37 < geiwohuayizhiyan> taxfu xu
12:37 < zgulu> ju'o ru'e .i srana lo mulno xadni kosta
12:37 < geiwohuayizhiyan> ie
12:37 < urka> ie
12:37 < urka> mi na viska do'e lo vlaste ku'i
12:37 < urka> lo jbovlaste xu
12:37 < zgulu> lo sfe'ero vlaste ku .u'i
12:37 < urka> ji lo sfe'eryvlaste
12:37 < zgulu> mi ta'osku
12:37 < geiwohuayizhiyan> sfeheryvlaste
12:38 < zgulu> ta'oksu
12:38 < urka> .oi zo kosta na sfe'ero se jbovlaste
12:38 < zgulu> na
12:38 < zgulu> tavla fi lo catni sfe'ero sfe'ero vlaste
12:38 < zgulu> na srana lo jbobau .i srana lo do cmene
12:38 < urka> ie
12:39 < zgulu> .i mi kanpe lo du'u do milxe lo ka se zdile lo nu djuno
12:39 < zgulu> ni'o xu do la mukti cu penmi
12:39 < urka> valsi lo si'o lidvilti'a kei lo bansuluku .i'e sai
12:39 < urka> mi'a za'o na penmi .oi
12:39 < zgulu> .oi
12:40 < zgulu> do'o na'e darnysi'u
12:40 < geiwohuayizhiyan> zihai xu
12:40 < urka> la'a mi ba za vitke la .nuiork. .i xu la mukti cu nelci lo nu dansu vau .u'i
12:40 < zgulu> .u'i
12:40 < zgulu> mi na djuno
12:40 < valsi> 44 results: kelci, sanmi, sidbo, detke'u, djasluni, glebre, jdatro, jusysku, kafybarjypre, kijytoldustersabji…
12:40 < urka> lo nu dansu cu banli krinu lo nu litru
12:40 < zgulu> la'a nelci lo nu jbodansu fi'o se kansa do
12:40 < urka> ko smaji doi nu'o se ningau sampre
12:41 < zgulu> vi'o si sa'ei .uat.
12:41 < zgulu> ma sapre jecusetavla do
12:41 < zgulu> sampre*
12:42 < urka> la valsi
12:43 < zgulu> je'e
12:43 < zgulu> xu la'oi geiwohuayizhiyan cu se menre la cirko
12:46 < zgulu> ni'o lu lo xanto cu glebre li'u
12:47 < zgulu> .i mi cuxna zo .augle lo valsi be lo ka .y glebre
12:49 < geiwohuayizhiyan> 给我画一只羊
12:49 < zgulu> ii
12:49 < zgulu> xu pruce fi la nalxe
12:50 < geiwohuayizhiyan> mi remna
12:50 < gleki> ju'o na go'i
12:52 < Spheniscine> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)
12:52 < gleki> se smuni lu xau mi xraci'a pa lanme li'u
12:53 < Spheniscine> zo xau ki'a
12:53 < gleki> dunli lu se va'u li'u
12:54 < b_jonas> oi
12:54 < Spheniscine> na se jbovlaste
12:54 < geiwohuayizhiyan> jbo:xau
12:54 < gleki> jbo: xau
12:54 < mensi> xau = [BAI] tcita lo sumti lo ka lo nundumu be lo bridi cu xamgu ce'u
12:54 < mensi> xau = [BAI] tcita lo sumti lo ka lo nundumu be lo bridi cu xamgu ce'u |>>> lo du'u broda xau mi cu du'u lo nu broda cu
12:54 < mensi> fasnu gi'e xamgu mi .i smudu'i lu seva'u li'u |>>> selpahi
12:56 < zgulu> lu ko pirfi'i lo lanpanzi se va'u mi li'u
12:56 < Spheniscine> mabla .i la vlasisku cu na'e banzu co cnino
12:56 < gleki> la vlasisku cu glico
12:56 < zgulu> lo jbopau pe la jbovlaste cu banro
12:56 < zgulu> be
12:58 < gleki> en:pirfi'i
12:58 < mensi> [< pixra finti ≈ Picture invent] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
12:58 < mensi> xrafin[5878], pirfin[5898], xrafi'i[6367], pirfi'i[6387], xrafinti[7917], ...
12:58 < gleki> zo xrafi'i zmadu zo pirfi'i
12:59 < gleki> i ku'i no da se jmina fi lo vlaste
12:59 < zgulu> xu do se slabu lu ko pirfi'i lo lanpanzi se va'u mi li'u doi la gleki
13:01 < Spheniscine> le irci sampla cu ruble spofu
13:02 < Spheniscine> [If I middle-click on the IRC client, it locks up]
13:02 < Spheniscine> mi pilno la'o gy Google Chrome gy
13:04 < Spheniscine> samru'e la'ei
13:04 < b_jonas> Spheniscine: does it help if you middle click again?
13:04 < Spheniscine> Funny I can't reproduce it now... I think the scroll bar needs to appear
13:04 < b_jonas> Spheniscine: if that doesn't fix it, you might try kiwi irc instead of qwebirc: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net
13:04 < Spheniscine> But I don't think so
13:05 < Spheniscine> irc.freenode.net ... hm
13:05 < b_jonas> Spheniscine: that tells it which network to connect to
13:06 < b_jonas> kiwi irc can connec to many (almost all) irc networks
13:06 < b_jonas> gleki: yes, I'm still planning to replace the web irc links in the wiki. haven't got to it yet.
13:08 < Spheniscine> ki'ai mabla la'oi Mibbit na kakne
13:08 < b_jonas> actually I'm glad of that. mibbit sucks.
13:09 < Spheniscine> Well it was the only webclient I knew of and non-web clients don't work on this router
13:10 < Spheniscine> If Kiwi works better I might switch
13:11 < Spheniscine> uiru'e akti
13:11 < b_jonas> Spheniscine: is it a company network firewalling irc connections or something?
13:11 < Spheniscine> No it's my house
13:12 < b_jonas> How come non-web clients don't work then?
13:12 < b_jonas> What set-up could cause that
13:12 < Spheniscine> I don't know... my father set it up
13:13 < Spheniscine> It's a wireless network, shared by the other computers in this house
13:13 < b_jonas> That at least means he might be responsive about fixing problems
13:13 < Spheniscine> Yeah... I don't know what's causing it though
13:14 < b_jonas> Does he know?
13:14 < b_jonas> oh well, sorry, I'll stop
13:14 < Spheniscine> I think I told him once... I think he doesn't know either. Maybe I should ask my brother though, since he has gotten into IRC too
13:15 < Spheniscine> I'm pretty good with computers, but I'm not familiar with the details of networking
13:16 < b_jonas> Some people on other irc channels might be able to help in that
13:17 < Spheniscine> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)
13:18 < Spheniscine> doi ro do pei
13:20 < Spheniscine> Any suggestions or corrections so far?
13:24 < Spheniscine> coi selpa'i
13:25 < selpahi> coi la zipcpi
13:25 < mensi> selpahi: cu'u la'o gy._mukti_.gy.: .i mi troci lo nu sanga ji'a | 2015-05-09T04:16:06.
13:25 < mensi> 207Z
13:25 < Spheniscine> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=lo_selma%27o_ca%27irvei_(selma%27o_Documentation)&veaction=edit
13:25 < selpahi> Yeah, I've seen it.
13:26 < Spheniscine> Cool. Any suggestions?
13:27 < selpahi> It reminds me of this: http://lojban.github.io/cll/20/
13:29 < Spheniscine> Ah... cool; that might help
13:29 < selpahi> You seem to be go into a bit more depth though, so that's good
13:29 < selpahi> going*
13:29  * Spheniscine nods
13:31 < zgulu> Spheniscine: {do farlu se ja'e do plipe} is ungrammatical. consider {do farlu se ja'e lo nu do plipe}
13:31 < Spheniscine> Oops
13:31 < Spheniscine> Thanks
13:31 < zgulu> np
13:32 < selpahi> I don't exactly agree that BAI are equivalent to their {fi'o} expansions. Many BAI can be defined much more precisely than via {fi'o}, which is vague by its nature.
13:33 < selpahi> zgulu: Microscope: http://www.lamemage.com/microscope/
13:35 < selpahi> I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I'm sure it's great.
13:35 < selpahi> Especially if you like making up stories
13:35 < selpahi> Which I do.
13:36 < zgulu> je'e
13:36 < zgulu> mi morji lo du'u CGM .a lo drata pu zu jungau
13:36 < selpahi> ie
13:37 < selpahi> mapti lo mu'a jbonunsla
13:37 < zgulu> .e'u ma'a troci ca lo ro'osla
13:37 < zgulu> .i'i
13:37 < selpahi> .i'i .u'i
13:38 < zgulu> ba banli
13:38 < zgulu> .ai ctecti
13:38 < zgulu> xu do citka ca lo cabdei
13:38 < selpahi> go'i
13:38 < zgulu> xamgu
13:39 < zgulu> citka rau da xu
13:39 < Spheniscine> doi selpa'i .i .ienairu'e - The fi'o expansion is about as precise as the brivla themselves. What is not so precise is how this added new place interacts with the selbri
13:39 < selpahi> Exactly.
13:40 < zgulu> fi'o ka banli vau lo se ckaji be mi .y .y .y bu'a
13:40 < zgulu> ca lo prula'i mi cilre lo du'u zo bu'a se rafsi da no'u ra'oi .bul.
13:40 < selpahi> .i na birti tu'a rau da .i ku'i la'a na mutce lo ka toldu'e
13:40 < zgulu> zdile be mi milxe
13:40 < selpahi> buldozer
13:40 < zgulu> ie
13:41 < zgulu> doi omni lo ka jbakloga tcidu
13:41 < selpahi> .i xamgu do fa lo nu do na rolrafcre .i do za'e ka'e se spaji tu'a lo rafsi
13:41 < selpahi> za'o *
13:41 < zgulu> .u'i
13:43 < zgulu> cinri krinu fa lo nu na cilre lo ro mei
13:43 < selpahi> ca ma ropno jbosla
13:43 < selpahi> ie
13:43 < zgulu> nu'o jdice
13:43 < zgulu> lo du'u ca ma kau ronsla
13:44 < selpahi> .i ko cusku fi lo ctuca doi ckule verba fe lu mi pu na cilre ro da .i ki'u bo mi djica lo nu mi za'o ka'e se spaji li'u .i ju'o lo ctuca ba .i'anmo zo'o
13:44 < Spheniscine> jbo:omni
13:44 < mensi> omni = x1 ckini fi x2 fe ro da (to poi ke'a ckaji x3 toi)
13:45 < zgulu> .u'i
13:45 < zgulu> ba'a nai na ku ro li'i spaji cu pluka
13:45 < selpahi> mi nelci .i ie mi nelci
13:45 < zgulu> .i ju'o zo .omni cu se nelci do
13:46 < zgulu> .i xu do smaji tinju'i lo cabdei nu voksnu
13:46 < selpahi> zo ju'o selsku ju'o do
13:46 < zgulu> ie mi pu'o zengau da pe di'u
13:46 < selpahi> mi tinju'i gi'e glauka
13:46 < zgulu> gi'e gleua li xo
13:47 < selpahi> (j'etais le hibou)
13:47 < zgulu> ue cu'i
13:48 < selpahi> ju'i la gocti
13:48 < zgulu> .i cumki co nu lo ronsla cu se stuzi lo mi nurma ninzdadi'u .i se va'o bo .erve .i va'o ku ka'e crisa
13:49 < gocti> re'i do mi'e mabla co cadzga
13:49 < selpahi> xu lo do dinju cu zvada'o la .ietebor.
13:49 < selpahi> .i sa'u mi kucli lo du'u ma kau valkra zo iancu
13:49 < zgulu> na go'i .i zvajbi
13:49 < selpahi> .i'e
13:50 < gocti> ctigau be fi di'e la gimyzba
13:50 < gocti> iingai cud tcaxiie deb doljn mel
13:50 < gocti> .i cupra zo iincu noi mi se fegli .i ja'e bo stika
13:50 < zgulu> .i mi kulci tu'a zo .iadzncta
13:51 < selpahi> должен za'a
13:51 < zgulu> .i .au ru'e da cmavo lo ui zei selma'o gi'e se smuni lo melbi
13:51 < selpahi> .i ju'o mi zmanei zo iancu zo cudbi
13:51 < zgulu> mi rusko lerfu tcidu kakne na
13:51 < gocti> iepsi
13:51 < zgulu> pepsi
13:52 < zgulu> .au ctecti ke'u .i ba bo kinzga
13:52 < zgulu> co'o precoljbopreprenu
13:52 < gocti> zo iadzncta zo'u no da vlakra
13:52 < selpahi> si'au do ta'e kinzga
13:52 < gocti> co'o
13:52 < selpahi> co'o citka be lo nicte
13:52 < zgulu> .i ta'e .i ku'i na cafne
13:53 < Spheniscine> co'o
13:53 < zgulu> ca ro jeftu cu pa ji'i roi fasnu
13:53 < zgulu> co'o
13:53 < zgulu> xu sko'opu fliba sai
13:53 < selpahi> je'e co'o .i ko se zdile
13:53 < zgulu> :p
13:53 < selpahi> no'e fliba
13:54 < zgulu> ŭi ru'i
13:54 < zgulu> co'o ke'u sai
13:54 < gocti> co'onke'u
13:54 < selpahi> .e'e jboski zo iancu
13:54 < gocti> li'a na frili
13:55 < phma> zo iancu ji zo iancufu?
13:55 < selpahi> pu tu'a zo iancu mi pilno lu xamgu fa lo nu da'i li'u
13:55 < gocti> en: iancufu
13:55 < gocti> vlaste: iancufu
13:55 < vlaste> no results. http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/iancufu
13:55 < phma> I think it's an ibis but I'd have to look it up.
13:56 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:56 < phma> It's in the foul fowl list. I think I wrote it as "jancufu" and should change it.
13:57 < phma> en:iancu
13:57 < mensi> iancu = x1 should or ought to do x2
13:57 < gocti> doi vozba xu do djuno lo du'u lo kunti ke me zo be stura cu mo kau
14:00 < selpahi> lo nu da'i $x_1$ ckaji ja zukte $x_2$ cu dratra ja nu $x_1$ racli $x_2$ .i lo nu da'i $x_1$ na ckaji ja zukte $x_2$ cu xlali
14:00 < selpahi> pei
14:01 < selpahi> cu nu dratra *
14:01 < gocti> lo nu da'i lo valsi na ckaji lo ka se skicu fo di'u cu li'o
14:02 < gocti> .i va'i tugni
14:02 < selpahi> je'e
14:02 < selpahi> .i .ai mi jmina
14:04 < selpahi> .i mo'u go'i
14:04 < gocti> mo'u blozau
14:05 < selpahi> za'a ui
14:05 < selpahi> .i na'e fegli  fa zo iancu .i naku tu'a su'o depybu'i cu sarcu
14:06 < selpahi> .i ku'i ja'a me me'o glauka si .i'y fa lo pa moi be lo lerfu .i xamgu .i melbi
14:06 < gocti> vajmau pe'i fa tu'a no me'o .y'y
14:06 < selpahi> ie
14:07 < selpahi> .i ku'i lo ka rivbi cu su'o roi nandu .i zo ni'anfu .i zo nu'ansa .i zo .ente'ori
14:08 < gocti> lo nenri be lo valsi zo'u filmau fa lo ka .i'anmo .i lo lujvo poi jai se sarcu tu'a me'o .y'y zo'u za'o fange
14:08 < selpahi> ue ru'e
14:08 < gocti> zary'inda
14:09 < gocti> co zo
14:09 < selpahi> ua .i lo ba'e tifsmi cu je'a fegli
14:09 < selpahi> toly'e'ande
14:10 < gocti> zo'oi hibou zo'u mi za'o manci
14:10 < selpahi> gi'e nalsti ca lo vanci
14:10 < gocti> la'a .u'i
14:11 < phma> glauka .i la'a lo drata valsi cu zvati le toljinsa cipni liste
14:11 < selpahi> .oi toljinsa cipni
14:11 < phma> ("foul fowl list" doesn't translate well)
14:14 < selpahi> .e'u ru'e su'o da brivla lo ka ce'u jai se kanpe fai ce'u
14:14 < gocti> je'u pei ri'oi liste cu liste lo za'o na se jbovlaste ku ji'a
14:15 < gocti> .i xoi mentu li so'o na jundi
14:37 < gocti> ca'o dragau gi'e bregau be fi tu'a lo uitki vau lo vlaturge'a velski
14:38 < selpahi> .i'e
14:44  * nuzba @Branvaun: cattum pingo  /  lo mlatu cu pixra / zeichnen Sie eine Katze  #latin #lojban #deutsch http://t.co/7dXwce8tXJ [http://bit.ly/1QwYleH]
14:44 < gocti> ku'i ba'e ti na sigja
15:14 < crwcomposer> coi. I have a question about bridi to sumti conversion. I can say {le mambakni cu plipe fo le lunra} but if I want to make that into a sumti in order to say I have a picture of it, how would I do that?
15:14 < selpahi> pixra lo nu lo mambakni cu plipe fo lo lunra
15:15 < crwcomposer> huh, simple enough, thank you
15:20 < crwcomposer> It's from the first sentence from Goodnight Moon, "In the great, green room there was a telephone, and a red balloon, and a picture of the cow jumping over the moon."
15:20 < crwcomposer> Which I translated as {.i le barda je crino kumfa pu se nenri lo fonxa .e lo xunre vartisyboi .e lo pixra lo nu le mambakni cu plipe fo le lunra}
15:21 < selpahi> Nice. Just add a {be} after {pixra} and you're good
15:21 < crwcomposer> Cool, thanks
15:33 < crwcomposer> speaking of goodnight moon, could you just say {xamgu nicte doi la lunra}?
15:35 < selpahi> I'd say {ko nicte zanfri doi lunra} or {.a'o zanfri lo nicte doi lunra} or some variation thereof.
15:37 < selpahi> Mainly, it's better to add {.a'o} or {ko}, or else you are claiming that it *is* a good night (or will be)
15:37 < crwcomposer> Do you not have to convert {lunra} to a sumti, or turn it into a name like {.lunras.} or something?
15:37 < selpahi> Is it not the actual moon?
15:38 < selpahi> It's not something called lunra, is it?
15:38 < crwcomposer> yeah, it's the actual moon, but it's referred to as a name
15:38 < selpahi> Are you sure? I have a version here where it's not capitalized, so it doesn't look like a name
15:38 < crwcomposer> like you would say "goodnight, Bob"
15:39 < selpahi> Bob is a name, but goodnight moon, is directed not at someone named Moon, but at the moon
15:39 < selpahi> After {doi} you can put either a sumti or a selbri
15:39 < selpahi> {doi SELBRI} is the same as {doi lo selbri}
15:39 < selpahi> (or {le} pre-xorlo or whatever)
15:40 < crwcomposer> I see, thanks
15:40 < selpahi> doi pendo "hey friend"
15:40 < selpahi> doi la selpa'i "hey, Selpahi"
15:41 < selpahi> doi ro zvati "this is directed at everyone who's here"
15:42 < crwcomposer> it just seems different since they aren't talking about moon as an abstract concept, but rather the Earth's moon in particular
15:43 < selpahi> Well lunra is basically that; we don't have any other home planets, and lunra is the moon of the home planet. Moons in general are mluni
15:43 < crwcomposer> Ah, ok, I didn't know there was another word
15:45 < selpahi> It would be nice to have a Lojban version that rhymes
15:59 < crwcomposer> Do you think children's books in Lojban should be translated without SE and FA selma'o? They sort of require the ability to count. Natural language grammars don't really have a parallel
15:59 < crwcomposer> as far as I know, anyway
16:00 < selpahi> I think they're fine here and there, but children aren't they only ones who get confused when SE and FA get mixed.
16:01 < selpahi> FA is more naturalistic than SE, but abusing FA is almost as bad as stacking SE on top of each other
16:02 < selpahi> (still not quite as bad though)
16:17 < selpahi> Goodnight moon, for real. co'o
16:33 < pilno> hi
16:34 < gocti> snidu li xo
16:34 < gocti> ni'o sipnybzu co'o
19:20 < durka42> does the Crash Course talk about lujvo construction?
19:20 < durka42> many newbies seem to be worried that rafsi can be mistaken for cmavo and so that should be covered in the lujvo construction section
22:46 < Spheniscine> coi
22:48 < Spheniscine> mi cfagau re lo cnino nunsnu bu'u la'o gy. Google Groups .gy
22:51 < durka42> coi
23:01 < Spheniscine> For the record, of my proposals I favor {mulvla}
23:03 < durka42> I'm not quite sure how {mulno} applies
23:04 < durka42> whoops
23:04 < Spheniscine> cu'i mulno lo ka jbobau
23:04 < Spheniscine> I dunno. Is there any better gismu?
23:05 < durka42> I also am not entirely convinced we need a new word :p
23:05 < durka42> can't cmevla just be a subset of brivla?
23:05 < Spheniscine> Think it's at least better than {kampu} and {rarna}
23:05 < durka42> you still need the word cmevla, because it describes a certain word shape
23:05 < durka42> namely, the word shape that requires pauses on both sides :p
23:06 < durka42> okay, but  you want one word for na'e cmevla brivla, I see
23:06 < durka42> …nalcmebrivo? :)
23:07 < durka42> (Ilmen has invented {brivo} to mean the same as {brivla})
23:07 < Spheniscine> I'm hoping it can be at most three syllables, two would be better
23:08 < Spheniscine> Also it'd be a bit weird that za'e nalcmebrivo can still be cmene
23:08 < durka42> alternatively we could define {brivla} to be a morphological definition, and say that cmevla are NOT brivla, but the ARE selbri
23:08 < durka42> I dunno if that would be better or worse
23:09 < Spheniscine> No can do. {selbri} is broader, and includes whole tanru, and even certain cmavo like {du}
23:09 < durka42> yeah, exacty
23:09 < durka42> si exactly
23:09 < durka42> and that's where we want to add cmevla, isn't it?
23:10 < durka42> {brivla}'s definition does say "morphologically defined" so technically {du} and {go'i} aren't brivla
23:10 < Spheniscine> The point is though that cmevla pretty much act like brivla in the grammar now
23:10 < durka42> they're 1-place selbri
23:11 < Spheniscine> They can be two places ("subject"/"object") or even more... anything that can be defined by context
23:11 < durka42> (in the experimental grammar, yes, as I'm sure v4hn or gejyspa will kvetch about soon on the mailing list :) )
23:11 < durka42> I kinda disagree with that…
23:11 < durka42> I'm not aware of a lot of discussion on what the place structure of a cmevla is
23:11 < durka42> but I would hope it's just "x1 me la [cmevla]"
23:13 < durka42> I dunno though
23:13 < durka42> bedtime
23:13 < Spheniscine> xamgu sipna di'ai
23:13 < durka42> ki'e co'o
23:13 < Spheniscine> co'o
23:26 < gleki> mensi: doi b_jonas do u have any ideas on how to make IRC chat interface multilingual? currently both Kiwi and qwebirc are in English
23:26 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.b_jonas.gy. di'a cusku da
23:39 < Spheniscine> As for the experimental parser... I'm afraid it's now the official parser. There are just too many things now in Lojban that the old parser would choke on
23:40 < gleki> there are several versions of ilmentufa
23:40 < gleki> off: la lojban mo
23:40 < mensi> ([{la lojban} CU] [mo VAU])
23:40 < gleki> exp: la lojban mo
23:40 < mensi> ([la {lojban mo} KU] VAU)
23:40 < gleki> alta: lo ku noi
23:40 < Spheniscine> Ah
23:40 < mensi> ([FA {lo <COhE SF> ku} {noi <(¹FA ZOhE¹) (¹CU [COhE SF] VAU¹)> KUhO}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
23:40 < Spheniscine> .ua nai
23:40 < gleki> Alta tries to correct your mistakes even from most weird chunks of text
23:41 < Spheniscine> .ua
23:41 < gleki> lo ku noi => fa lo co'e ku noi fa zo'e cu co'e cu co'e
23:41 < gleki> Since you forgot the selbri after {lo}, after {noi} and forgot the main selbri of this clause.
23:42 < gleki> so it restored all the three.
23:42 < Spheniscine> ki'anai
23:43 < gleki> it also restores values of FA although this is limited to what I understand and use.
23:43 < gleki> alta: mi prami do
23:43 < mensi> ([FA mi] [CU {prami SF} {FE do} VAU])
23:43 < gleki> i.e. {fa mi prami fe do}
23:44 < Spheniscine> Hm actually that's kinda useful even in a non-correcting parser... reminds you of which places they would be in
23:44 < gleki> it will be usefull for better glossers/translations from Lojban into controlled natlangs
23:45 < Spheniscine> Also just educational. For example in {coi do mi prami do} it's clear that COI "hides" the following sumti/selbri from the bridi
23:45 < Spheniscine> So that it might as well not exist
23:45 < Spheniscine> Syntactically speaking
23:46 < Spheniscine> That's part of what I want to put in my selma'o documentation
23:47 < Spheniscine> alta: coi do mi prami do
23:47 < mensi> ([coi do DOhU] [FA mi] [CU {prami SF} {FE do} VAU])
23:49 < Spheniscine> sy fy goi ma
23:49 < Spheniscine> [What's SF stand for?]
23:50 < gleki> selbri end
23:51 < Spheniscine> je'e ki'e
23:58 < Spheniscine> I'm kinda thinking of a possible new cmavo (with it's own selma'o), {vau'u}
23:58 < Spheniscine> Essentially, it's a super-famyma'o; closes every famyma'o at the end of a sentence
23:59 < Spheniscine> The idea is so that you can add attitudinals as an afterthought
23:59 < Spheniscine> That apply to the entire sentence and not just the last thing you said
--- Day changed Sun May 10 2015
00:00 < Spheniscine> {vau} is okay for simple sentences, but if you have a lot of subclauses at the end you end up having to {vau vau vau}
00:00 < Spheniscine> And that just won't do
00:01 < Spheniscine> {xau} is also open if we are willing to use a monosyllable... not sure it's worth it though
00:03 < Spheniscine> Not sure exactly how strong it should be though. Probably don't want it to close {li'u}. Not sure about {toi}
00:04 < Spheniscine> And there is still a lot about selma'o I haven't figured out; I should probably finish the doc just for the exercise :p
00:05 < Spheniscine> But I think "acts as any number of vau" is a good start.
00:06 < Spheniscine> Or more precisely, "as many {vau}s as possible while remaining grammatical"
00:07 < Spheniscine> Should I start a new discussion about that?
00:19 < ken_O> coi
00:20 < ken_O> I am Japanese
00:21 < ken_O> while read-only
00:21 < Spheniscine> coi
00:21 < Spheniscine> do na tavla bau lo glico
00:21 < Spheniscine> xu
00:22 < gleki> spee'a do co'a casnu do'e lo mriste
00:22 < gleki> Spheniscine: e'a do co'a casnu do'e lo mriste
00:23 < Spheniscine> vi'o
00:26 < Spheniscine> zo do'e ua
00:27 < gleki> xo'e zo'e co'e do'e lo co'e
00:27 < Spheniscine> Need to add that to BAI, since that is an exception to "every BAI having an associated brivla"
00:28 < Spheniscine> *the BAI documentation
00:28 < gleki> do'e = fi'o co'e
00:28 < Spheniscine> Mhm
00:28 < gleki> so it does have an associated brivla
00:28 < Spheniscine> Well, if you consider co'e a brivla, which the strict definition doesn't :p Could just say selbri though
00:29 < gleki> Notice that currently BAI and other preposition are treated the same by exp. grammar so some prepositions indeed dont have any accosiated brivla
00:29 < gleki> *associated
00:29 < Spheniscine> Which ones did BAI merge with... PU?
00:29 < gleki> oops, not a brivla. it's a selbrivla.
00:29 < gleki> With PU, ZEhA, ZAhO, TAhE, VA ...
00:30 < Spheniscine> So then they'll be BAI2 BAI3 BAI4 BAI5
00:30 < Spheniscine> Wow that would really mess a lot of things up lol
00:30 < gleki> They are just prepositions (sumtcita) with subclasses: BAI, PU ...
00:30 < Spheniscine> Still what I say about BAI will still be applicable to BAI1
00:31 < gleki> No need to change terms
00:31 < Spheniscine> Right, just consider them all subselma'o of BAI?
00:31 < gleki> subselma'o of TAG
00:31 < gleki> =sumtcita = preposition/adverb
00:34 < noncomcinse> xu da na'e sipna
00:34 < Spheniscine> da goi ma
00:35 < noncomcinse> ua sai mi na zgana lo notci pe zi
00:35 < noncomcinse> ie
00:35 < noncomcinse> ma na'e sipna
00:37 < noncomcinse> li'a mi .e la gleki .e la'oi .Sphenoscine.
00:38 < noncomcinse> .i xu do lojbo se cmene
00:40 < Spheniscine> mi'e la <zipcpi>
00:45 < selrun> coi ro jbopre
00:46 < noncomcinse> coi la .selrun.
00:46 < noncomcinse> do mo
00:50 < selrun> mi ca surla ba lo nu kavbu finpe
00:51 < noncomcinse> ua
00:52 < selrun> mo do
00:52 < gleki> vote for Lojban: sign up and press "rerank" button http://www.ranker.com/list/the-easiest-language-to-learn-_for-native-english-speakers_/admiralcrunch
00:52 < noncomcinse> .i ma do tcika
00:55 < noncomcinse> .i mi tcidu lo kibro lisri
00:56 < selrun> li paso pi'e mumu tcika
00:56 < noncomcinse> mi se tcika li nore pi'e mumu
00:58 < selrun> .u'i oidai
00:59 < selrun> mi nelci le lisri
01:01 < gleki> and one more list: http://www.ranker.com/list/easiest-language-to-learn/jennifer-lee?ref=rltdlsts&pos=1&a=8&ltype=l&l=1955738&g=2
01:02 < Spheniscine> exp: do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu vau vau vau ui
01:02 < mensi> (do [CU {sidju <mi (¹lo [nu {mi <CU (²zenba [lo {ni <CU (³ricfu vau³)> KEI} KU] vau²)>} KEI] KU¹)> <vau ui>}])
01:05 < gleki> exp: ui do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu
01:05 < mensi> (ui [do {CU <sidju (¹mi [lo {nu <mi (²CU [zenba {lo <ni (³CU [ricfu VAU]³) KEI> KU} VAU]²)> KEI} KU]¹) VAU>}])
01:05 < gleki> :P
01:06 < gleki> although I would add {tu'a} before {lo nu}
01:06 < noncomcinse> .i uinai mi djuno fi lo selzva be lo mi xlali jenai xamgu bi'u kertinytci
01:06 < noncomcinse> tugni gy.
01:08 < noncomcinse> .i ku'i li so'o ni lo na te djuno cu zmadu xamgu
01:09 < noncomcinse> .i va'i lo ca se pilno no'e ke mutce xlali
01:13 < Spheniscine> alta: do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu vau vau vau ui
01:13 < mensi> ([FA do] [CU {sidju SF} {FE mi} {FI <lo (¹[nu {<FA mi> <CU (²zenba SF²) (²FE [lo {<ni (³[FA ZOhE] [CU {ricfu SF} vau]³) KEI> SF} KU]²) vau>} KEI] SF¹) KU>} {vau ui}])
01:14 < Spheniscine> Not sure why {le te sidju} would need a tu'a there. It's already a lo nu
01:14 < gleki> the verb is "to help someone do something"
01:15 < Spheniscine> x1 helps/assists/aids object/person x2 do/achieve/maintain event/activity x3.
01:15 < noncomcinse> I'd be because la'e do is helping you do (what I'd assume to be) lo gasnu be lonu...
01:15 <@rlpowell> Anyone here familiar with gunicorn?
01:15 < gleki> Well, as said your example is also fine, .u'u
01:18 < Spheniscine> Of course if we really wanted lo nu gasnu in there we'd add another vau to the example zo'oru'e
01:18 < noncomcinse> I thought sidju2 was a ka
01:18 < Ilmen> coi
01:19 < Ilmen> sidju3 is probably a ka, but sidju2 is certainly not
01:19 < noncomcinse> coi .ilmen.
01:19 < selrun> coi la ilmen
01:19 < noncomcinse> .i besna fliba
01:19 < noncomcinse> Yeah. That's what I was thinking.
01:20 < Ilmen> lu mi do sidju lo ka jukpa li'u mu'a
01:20 < Ilmen> .i simsa zo kansa
01:20 < Ilmen> pe'i
01:20 < gleki> u'u once again. According to me {nu} is also fine there.
01:20 < Ilmen> mi na pante
01:20 < selrun> rlpowell: not really. I've read the docs, but I haven't used it. I've been playing with django and flask lately
01:20 < noncomcinse> simsa tugni
01:21 <@rlpowell> selrun: Better than me.  I can't figure out how to turn off http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku.ru/coi
01:21 <@rlpowell> gleki says we don't need it any more, but it's donri's thing, I just run the server.
01:21 <@rlpowell> gunicorn is runnig, but I can't se ewhere the configuration lives.
01:21 <@rlpowell> Any hints?
01:23 <@rlpowell> And of course I just found it.  :P
01:23 < selrun> No sorry. Like I said, haven't actually used it
01:23 < selrun> .ui u'i
01:23 < selrun> Always happens. Things occur only after you speak about them
01:24 <@rlpowell> gleki: Done.  Thanks.
01:26 < gleki> 372 bytes of RAM saved zo'o
01:32  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: Lojbanists are the best https://np.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/2wafpc/live_lojban_chat/copro13 [http://bit.ly/1FdnLvP]
01:41 < b_jonas> gleki: I think you'll have to ask the people who run those web irc proxies
01:41 < mensi> b_jonas: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: do u have any ideas on how to make IRC chat interface multilingual? currently both Kiwi
01:41 < mensi> and qwebirc are in English | 2015-05-10T06:26:28.746Z
01:43 < b_jonas> gleki: hey wait, https://kiwiirc.com/#features says “multiple languages”
01:47 < Spheniscine> ei mi cliva co'o ro do
01:49 < b_jonas> and indeed
01:49 < b_jonas> gleki: it does support at least french
01:50 < b_jonas> if you load it in French, it says “Choisissez un pseudo...; Pseudo; Salon; Démarrer…” on the login screen
01:51 < b_jonas> so it has at least two languages
02:14 < gleki> b_jonas: so it means since we detect selected interface language in LMW we can redirect people to different KiwiIRC chats. Can language choice be passed in the url?
02:16 < gleki> If yes then it's just a matter of creating a new page "Mediawiki:WebChataddress/{YOURLANUAGECODE}" and then putting {{int:Webchat}} to the Mediawiki:Mlana page
02:16 < gleki> oops
02:17 < gleki> If yes then it's just a matter of creating a new page "Mediawiki:WebChataddress/{YOURLANUAGECODE}" and then putting {{int:Webchataddress}} to the Mediawiki:Mlana page
02:18 < b_jonas> gleki: no
02:18 < b_jonas> at least not that I know of
02:19 < b_jonas> I think it only determines the language from the http request header
02:19 < gleki> Can a post request do the trick?
02:19 < b_jonas> ask on #kiwiirc if you want to be sure
02:19 < b_jonas> no
02:19 < gleki> Hm
02:19 < b_jonas> not unless they specifically support it
02:20 < gleki> Any other IRC with web frontend?
02:20 < b_jonas> I'm not even sure it would be a good idea anyway
02:20 < b_jonas> just because I'm reading the wiki content in some language doesn't mean I want to use software interface with that interface
02:21 < b_jonas> for example, even if I read the french wiktionary, because it has better definition for french words than the English one, I use English interface on the wiki site itself, and if it links me to other sites, I wouldn't want it to just randomly set those sites to french interface either
02:21 < gleki> https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/kiwiirc/
02:22 < b_jonas> I'd suggest to just use it as is, determining the language from the user's http request header
02:22 < b_jonas> that will do the right thing
02:25 < b_jonas> gleki: also, if kiwiirc has interface localization for a language that the lojban wiki doesn't (which isn't very likely, but possible in theory), it will let the user use that language
02:26 < gleki> If it's browser language detection+GeoIP then we should hope that LMW and Kiwi will coincide. But look here: https://github.com/prawnsalad/KiwiIRC/tree/master/client/src/translations
02:27 < gleki> Weel, obviously LMW doesn't have Macedonian as the language to which the front page offers anything.
02:27 < gleki> *Well
02:27 < b_jonas> gleki: no, I said _interface_ _language_
02:27 < b_jonas> not content language
02:27 < b_jonas> mediawiki probably comes with macedonian localization for the interface out of the box
02:28 < gleki> Well, anyway it's still better than the current qwebirc. When will you replace the link?
02:28 < b_jonas> it comes with a ton of languages
02:28 < b_jonas> hey, I didn't say I'm going to replace the link with kiwi
02:28 < b_jonas> I said I'm going to replace the links in the main page with two links,
02:28 < gleki> Why not
02:28 < b_jonas> and the link on the sidebar with a link to one of those two
02:28 < gleki> I mean the link in the sidebar
02:28 < b_jonas> (easily switchable with a template)
02:28 < gleki> hm
02:28 < b_jonas> rather than the crazy plugin
02:29 < b_jonas> I'm still undecided which of the two should be the default on the sidebar
02:29 < gleki> okay waiting for your edits
02:29 < b_jonas> both have advantages
02:29 < gleki> which advantages qwebirc has?
02:29 < b_jonas> its look seems saner to me,
02:29 < b_jonas> but probably it should be determined depending on which one works better to users
02:29 < b_jonas> and which one works better to mobile phone users and such stuff
02:30 < b_jonas> not from which one works better to me, because I rarely use web irc, and even if I do, I can log in to either directly without the wiki
02:30 < gleki> Kiwi can be installed on a separate server, right? We can do that ourselves and then patch its skin, cant we?
02:30 < b_jonas> one person has already said on this channel that qwebirc didn't work for them
02:30 < b_jonas> or didn't work well
02:30 < gleki> maybe because of the iframe?
02:31 < b_jonas> gleki: ugh no, I won't administer a web irc client
02:31 < b_jonas> if you want to run one, feel free, but that's almost as bad as running an open proxy to everything ever
02:31 < gleki> b_jonas: not hosting and not you. I mean it's open source, can be installed on any server. So Lojbanistan can host this client, right?
02:31 < gleki> hm
02:32 < b_jonas> plus it's not even worth unless you run a server with very high availability
02:33 < b_jonas> in theory, it can be installed on any server. in practice, that's not something you should take lightly.
02:33 < b_jonas> you do it only if you have lots of experience with this kind of high volume server stuff.
02:33 < b_jonas> so basically, no.
02:34 < b_jonas> and besides, you won't necessarily make the skin better for everybody's liking just because you change it to what I prefer
02:34 < b_jonas> I'm not even a typical webirc user.
02:34 < gleki> Probably another chat engine is needed with a bridge to IRC
02:34 < b_jonas> I use non-web irc clients.
02:34 < b_jonas> what? why?
02:34 < b_jonas> seriously?
02:34 < b_jonas> what's wrong with just linking to qwebirc and kiwi as is
02:35 < b_jonas> they work fine
02:35 < b_jonas> really
02:35 < b_jonas> there's even a choice
02:35 < b_jonas> that it's not an easy choice just shows how they're both good clients
02:35 < b_jonas> the situation is way better than it was five years ago, when qwebirc barely worked in mobile browsers, kiwi didn't exists, and people used mibbit
02:35 < b_jonas> and before that, qwebirc didn't exist either
02:36 < b_jonas> or not on freenode at least
02:36 < b_jonas> freenode started to run one because mibbit sucked
02:36 < gleki> Well, actually the most important problem of IRC is the lack of memory. We use these workarounds as mensi's delayed messaging etc. E.g. gitter reminds you of new messages
02:36 < b_jonas> ( http://www.qwebirc.org/about lists how many networks are using it now)
02:37 < gleki> Another problem even bigger is the fragmentation of the internet.
02:37 < b_jonas> oh dear
02:37 < b_jonas> if you're trying to fix irc, I'm not here. take it on another channel.
02:37 < b_jonas> sorry
03:11 < b_jonas> oh argh
03:12 < b_jonas> admin rights might not be enough for me to fix the skin afterall
03:12 < b_jonas> I might need help from whoever runs the wiki to modify the interwiki link table
03:12 < b_jonas> who runs the wiki?
03:27 < Ilmen> b_jonas: It's Robin, if I'm not mistaken.
03:27 < b_jonas> je'e
03:27 < b_jonas> I'm still looking at what I'll have to do
03:38 < gleki> b_jonas: i strongly suggest against manually changing mysql tables. MediaWiki expects certain structure that can be broken after each update. What do you need specifically?
04:07 < b_jonas> gleki: I didn't consider manually changing mysql tables, no
04:07 < b_jonas> gleki: I might need a change in the configuration settings, or might not, I don't know the details yet because I haven't administered mw yet
04:08 < b_jonas> gleki: what I was thinking is to add a new interwiki link prefix, which is something that can be done in the configuration settings somehow, but I don't know how, and it might not be necessary or the right solution
04:09 < gleki> b_jonas: we only do changes in LocalSettings.php, we use "git pull" to update extensions and MediaWiki and we add new extensions via "git clone". No direct changes to MySQL have ever been made. And they shouldn't be done.
04:09 < b_jonas> gleki: sure
04:10 < gleki> b_jonas: so first consult me, then I'll add change or your extensions and then we two will bug CGM to sync these additions to the production sdirectory.
04:10 < gleki> *directory
04:10 < gleki> *changes
04:11 < b_jonas> gleki: ok, I'll consult you when I figure out how this skin works
04:27 < b_jonas> oh, the problem is that I said "table". I didn't mean a mysql table.
04:28 < gleki> What do u want?
04:52  * nuzba @didaclopez: @quimtestar Tots hauríem d'aprendre Lojban [http://bit.ly/1IqMopw]
04:56  * nuzba @quimtestar: .@didaclopez No coneixia aquest projecte. Sembla interessant.    http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Et15Bk]
06:16 < selpahi> dormidju zei coi
06:17 < selpahi> .i ju'o cu'i lu nicte zei co'o li'u plixau
06:17 < selpahi> .i nicte zei co'o lunra
07:42 < Spheniscine> Why is zo xai'a and zo xu'u'i in COI? They seem better suited for UI
07:55 < gleki> ask the authors
08:01  * nuzba @llutrae_ebooks: As of this talk about machine parsing makes me wonder about how successful Lojban could be in a machine translation context. [http://bit.ly/1IrkARR]
08:01 < gleki> me too
08:13 < b_jonas> i ma valsi lo ka cupra lo dacti lo nu tisna lo litki slasi ja jinme lo tarmi kabri gi'e ba bo dunja denpa gi'e ba bo vimcu fi ri
08:17 < Spheniscine> arta: i ma valsi lo ka cupra lo dacti lo nu tisna lo litki slasi ja jinme lo tarmi kabri gi'e ba bo dunja denpa gi'e ba bo vimcu fi ri
08:17 < Spheniscine> alta: i ma valsi lo ka cupra lo dacti lo nu tisna lo litki slasi ja jinme lo tarmi kabri gi'e ba bo dunja denpa gi'e ba bo vimcu fi ri
08:17 < Spheniscine> oi
08:17 < gleki> sorry one sec
08:17 < Spheniscine> la mensi cu spofu gau mi
08:17 < gleki> na
08:18 < gleki> i sa'u lo selfu skami cu masno ca
08:19 < Spheniscine> [I had trouble reading what b_jonas said.. too much nesting :p]
08:19 < gleki> mensi is still loading
08:19 < phma__> zo tamyzba?
08:20 < gleki> camxes: i ma valsi lo ka cupra lo dacti lo nu tisna lo litki
08:20 < camxes> (i [ma CU] [valsi {lo <ka (¹cupra [{lo dacti KU} {lo <nu (²tisna [lo litki KU] VAU²) KEI> KU}] VAU¹) KEI> KU} VAU])
08:22 < Spheniscine> .ua xu du la'o gy. mold casting .gy
08:24 < Spheniscine> ju'o nai vlazba ma kau vau'u u'u
08:25 < gleki> en:cupra
08:25 < mensi> cupra = x1 produces x2 [product] by process x3.
08:26 < gleki> b_jonas: lo te tisna cu mo
08:26 < gleki> i ku'i mi jimpe
08:30 < phma__> how about "tamtinsyzba"?
08:31 < b_jonas> y
08:31 < b_jonas> sa i ma valsi lo ka cupra lo dacti lo nu tisna fa lo litki slasi ja jinme lo tarmi kabri gi'e ba bo dunja denpa gi'e ba bo vimcu fi ri
08:33 < Spheniscine> mi certu co zmadu fa lo jbobau saske lo nu jbobau cusku vau'u uu se'i
08:33 < b_jonas> phma: do you mean "tamtisnyzba"?
08:34 < phma> yes, which is also "tamtisyzba"
08:34 < Spheniscine> mi dukse pilno zo vau'u poi cnino se zbasu valsi
08:35 < b_jonas> phma: might work
08:35 < b_jonas> i'e
08:38 < Spheniscine> mu'i zo'e mi vlazba zo vau'u
08:40 < Spheniscine> sidbo fi mi ze'a lo su'omei nanca
08:42 < gleki> Someone in #tatoeba named me a bot :/
08:43 < Spheniscine> zo'oi. tatoeba .ki'a
08:43 < Spheniscine> http://tatoeba.org/eng/ ua
08:44 < gleki> http://tatoeba.org/jbo/ !
08:50 < niek> gleki: you are a bot, though, right? ;)
08:51 < niek> zo'o
08:52 < Spheniscine> nelci lo nu pilno zo vau'u .ijubo zo vau cu banzu
08:53 < niek> valsi: vau'u
08:53 < Spheniscine> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/Of-7SJmHcbw
08:53 < gleki> nu'o se jmina
08:54 < valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vau%27u
08:54 < Spheniscine> cu cnino valsi
08:56 < Spheniscine> mi puzi finti
09:00 < Spheniscine> zo vau'u cu famyma'o lo jufra
09:01 < Spheniscine> poi na'o sepli fi zo i
09:05 < Spheniscine> oi mi du'eroi srera tavla lo sampre
09:06 < Spheniscine> mi na'e morji lo du'u sy du ma
09:07 < Spheniscine> kau
09:09 < Spheniscine> co'o
10:05 < _mukti_> coi jundi
10:06 < _mukti_> coi naljundi
10:10 < gleki> _mukti_: coi do ma nuzba JVS
10:11 < _mukti_> coi gleki .i na nuzba .i ma ca'o troci lo nu cikre .i ku'i nandu
10:11 < _mukti_> s/ma/mi
10:11 < gleki> do
10:12 < gleki> kau
10:12 < gleki> u'i
10:12 < gleki> i xu lo nu pilno lo laldo versiio be la perl na cumki
10:15 < _mukti_> cumki gi'e nandu ji'a
10:19 < _mukti_> .i .oi mi ba'e na nelci lo nu pilno la .perl. lo nu benji lo na'e me la'o zoi ASCII zoi lerfu .i la .perl. cu dukse lo ka toci'o
10:19 < mensi> ba'e mi nelci i ie mi nelci
10:19 < _mukti_> s/toci'o/tolci'o/
10:20 < _mukti_> .i oi
10:20 < _mukti_> .i mabla
10:23 < gleki> je'e je'e
10:58 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 138 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 135 normal]
12:04 < selpahi> coi
12:06 <@Broca> coi la selpa'i
12:27 < _mukti_> coi la selpa'i .e la Broca
12:27 < b_jonas> coi
12:28 < _mukti_> coi la'o zoi b_jonas zoi
12:29 < gleki> y co'o di'aidai mi
12:30 < _mukti_> co'o la gleki
12:31 < _mukti_> I think I'm starting to understand what's ailing jbovlaste with the new Perl.
14:57 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:24 < ldlework> Anyone want to try to join my opensim server?
15:26 < ldlework> We could play primtionary!
15:27 < ldlework> lojban primptionary guise!
15:28 < ldlework> it could be very fun
15:35 < ldlework> :(D
15:35 < ldlework> is no one around?
15:47 < Taun> I'm around, in a very vague sense of the word, and don't know what primptionary is, and I'm scared bofwhat it could be
15:49 < Taun> OH no I looked it up. OH no I'm too scared
15:51 < ldlework> Taun: scared..?
15:52 < Taun> Second Life looks mildly scary
15:53 < ldlework> ...
15:53 < Taun> "Scary" itself being a silly overexageration
15:53 < ldlework> no kidding
15:53 < ldlework> Anyway, I set up a private server
15:53 < ldlework> Its just an island surrounded by water
15:53 < ldlework> I was thinking we could use it for some lojban roleplay
15:53 < Taun> I may play another day, but not today
15:53 < ldlework> I should really like
15:54 < ldlework> ask the community if they are interested in things before I spend time doing them
15:54  * ldlework goes and plays some videogames
16:05 < ldlework> If anyone wants to try just ping me
16:06 < ldlework> start by downloading an opensim compatible client like Singularity Viewer
16:49 < niek> oi mi na kakne lo nu sipna
16:53 < ldlework> niek: ta'i ma do so'e roi gasnu lo nu tatpi
17:00 < niek> doi ly .i ki'a .i lerci vi iku'i mi na sipna ki'u zo'e
17:03 < ldlework> ma cfipu
17:05 < ldlework> doi niek
17:05 < niek> e'o xu mi ciksi bau lo glico
17:07 < niek> I'm confused because I interpret your sentence as "What usually makes you tired?", and I don't feel it is relevant at the moment, as the only reason I should be sleeping is because it is 2AM. And I don't feel that tired actually, which might be why I can't sleep :P
17:11 < ldlework> niek: "What usually makes you tired?" would be rinka vs gasnu
17:12 < ldlework> with gasnu its more "How do you usually get yourself tired?"
22:40 < gleki> mensi: doi b_jonas coi. so what is the url for automatically joining KiwiIRC with an available name, preferably /pilno(_*)/
22:40 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.b_jonas.gy. di'a cusku da
22:43 < b_jonas> gleki: try to description and form at https://kiwiirc.com/embedding
22:43 < mensi> b_jonas: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: coi. so what is the url for automatically joining KiwiIRC with an available name,
22:43 < mensi> preferably /pilno(_*)/ | 2015-05-11T05:40:26.156Z
23:18 < gleki> looks like works. b_jonas, I replaced the link in the sidebar to KiwiIRC chat since it is multilingual.
23:20 < gleki> en: ci'oi
23:21 < mensi> ci'oi = [COI2] Converts following cmevla or zoi-quote into psychomime.  |>>> Narrower term than tai'i. See also ci'o,
23:21 < mensi> cinmo, sa'ei, ki'ai. Examples in some languages. jpn: そわそわ (sowasowa): restlessly. nep: सुखदुख (sukhadukha): lit.
23:21 < mensi> happiness-sorrow; the human condition. eng: "zing", "yoink" |>>> gusnikantu
23:21 < gleki> mukti fixed it finally
23:25 < b_jonas> gleki: great! I'll look at how you'd done it, and will change the main pages to contain both links
23:25 < b_jonas> (that latter is easier)
23:26 < gleki> b_jonas: just inserted an external link. No iframes
23:26 < b_jonas> great
23:27 < gleki> If you can localize Kiwi to other languages then they have a github repo. you may just pr there.
23:27 < b_jonas> I still recommend that you specify no nick, no "pilno" default, so that everyone chooses a nick
23:28 < gleki> Okay. And I think that in future wiki nick should be passed to Kiwi
23:28 < b_jonas> I don't think so
23:28 < b_jonas> Just let everyone choose a nick, regardless the wiki nick
23:28 < gleki> Not sure how to do that without writing an extension.
23:28 < b_jonas> (in any case, that would be difficult to implement)
23:29 < gleki> We have javascript, parserfunctions, lua ...
23:29 < gleki> in LMW
23:29 < b_jonas> And not only becasue of the technical reason that wiki usernames can be much longer and may contain a much larger selection of characters than an irc nick.
23:30 < b_jonas> gleki: yes yes, but also because of caching you can't just re-render the links in the page for every user that loads it. only the header/footer are re-rendered.
23:31 < gleki> They are somehow rerendered when the user changes wiki language interface. the whole sidebar changes its language after that
23:32 < b_jonas> gleki: yes, that's the header/footer. is the page proper itself re-rendered too? like, the content of the main page or other pages?
23:34 < gleki> The front page is a template. First GeoIP+browser language detection autochooses a language and then due to templating selects the appropriate front page content.
23:34 < gleki> You can force wiki to use a different language by clicking on the flag
23:34 < b_jonas> yes, and that changes the interface language too. that's very annoying.
23:35 < gleki> the front page has only "{{:{{int:fi'i papri}}}}" as its content
23:35 < gleki> "Mediawiki:fi'i papri/en" page contains the link to the English content for the front page.
23:36 < gleki> Namely, "Welcome!/en"
23:36 < gleki> b_jonas: annoying? isn't that expected?
23:37 < b_jonas> gleki: it might be expected for new users. but it's certainly not what I want when I want to visit other versions of the main page. but no problem, I can work it around.
23:38 < gleki> The idea is that you have everything in your language, not in a mixture of languages.
23:38 < gleki> Ideally it should change not only the wiki language, but the browser language, OS language and your country :D
23:39 < b_jonas> gleki: that's not the idea I have. my idea is that I use English for interface language with the computer, even when I'm reading or writing Hungarian or French or Lojbanic text
23:39 < b_jonas> and no, it definitely shouldn't change your country. that's riddiculous.
23:40 < gleki> b_jonas: the wiki was not meant to be for geeks. And you can just open those final pages like "Welcome!/en" etc. In fact for you as an advanced user it may be better since those are the pages that contain the actual text.
23:41 < gleki> so you can edit them
23:41 < b_jonas> yes, that's what I said. I can workaround.
23:43 < gleki> Or just create the second front page/manual website map.
--- Day changed Mon May 11 2015
00:08 < pilno> coi ro do
00:09 < pilno> mi se cmene la matan
00:10 < gleki> do se cmene zo matan
00:10 < gleki> i fi'i do
00:11 < gleki> i ta'o mi de'a jundi
00:22 < pilno> this site is a disaster on mobile
00:22 < pilno> i have only a tiny window to see the chat
00:28 < gleki> what link did you use?
00:28 < gleki> try this https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/?#jbosnu,#ckule,#lojban
00:30 < gleki> enter your nick and press "Start ..."
00:30 < gleki> pilno: ^
01:28 < gleki> Looks like -ste is one of ninjbobau suffixes
02:32 < gleki> In Facebook and Reddit I replaced links to the wiki chat to a redirect to KiwiIRC: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/irci/
02:33 < gleki> this is just a redirect page. But it's stable, in future we can redirect to something different.
03:14 < zipcpi> coi
03:14 < zipcpi> https://i.imgur.com/8cMkPHG.jpg
03:18 < gleki> je'e
03:19 < zipcpi> ui
03:20 < zipcpi> Huh I just realized that there are actually still monosyllabic cmavo. iVV and uVV
03:20 < zipcpi> *more unallocated monosyllabic cmavo
03:20 < Ilmen> ie
03:21 < Ilmen> They are precious, and any proposed definition should be carefully considered before being approved
03:21 < Ilmen> pe'i
03:21 < zipcpi> ie
03:22 < Ilmen> Word shortness should ideally parallel its usage frequency
03:22 < zipcpi> Still I think there's a good argument for {xau}->{vau'u}
03:23 < Ilmen> I've been using ".i" for this kind of things
03:23 < Ilmen> "broda lo nu brode brodo .i .ue dai"
03:23 < Ilmen> in the worst case, you can use ".i go'i .ue dai"
03:24 < Ilmen> pei
03:24 < zipcpi> The main problem I see with that when you want to continue speaking after that
03:24 < gleki> I can't find a good gloss for {zau} as an English adverb
03:25 < Ilmen> As for Lojban corups statistics, here's an excellent tool: http://korp.alexburka.com/
03:25 < gleki> "under approval"? endorsedfully? :D
03:25 < zipcpi> Then you have "broda lo nu brode brodo .i ue dai .i brodo brodu
03:25 < zipcpi> It *works*, but it's kinda weird
03:25 < Ilmen> Does vau'u allow you to do that?
03:26 < zipcpi> broda lo nu brode brodo vau'u ue dai  .i brodo brodu
03:26 < Ilmen> You can use "to .ue dai toi", but I'm not sure whether it'd have the rignt nuance
03:26 < Ilmen> *right
03:26 < zipcpi> Mhm...
03:26 < Ilmen> Then why not having vau'u being an attitudinal modifier, like "pei"?
03:26 < Ilmen> "This attitudinal applies to the whole sentence"
03:27 < Ilmen> Simple suggestion.
03:28 < Ilmen> (This way, there would be no need for a new grammar)
03:28 < zipcpi> I kinda think vau'u ue dai is more natural than ue dai vau'u... though I did model it after vau
03:28 < Ilmen> Well there's BAhE, also
03:29 < Ilmen> but not sure if it's a good idea .u'i
03:29 < zipcpi> pei is also in UI right?
03:29 < Ilmen> ie
03:29 < zipcpi> So it won't matter syntactically if it is an prefix or a suffix
03:30 < Ilmen> Did you see my link to the Lojban corpus search tool?
03:30 < zipcpi> Oh, no
03:30 < zipcpi> fau'u
03:30 < Ilmen> It's quite useful; you can search for every example of use of any sumti place (for example, traji's x3, etc)
03:30 < Ilmen> example: https://www.alexburka.com/~danr/#?stats_reduce=word&cqp=[tags%20_%3D%20%22traji3%22]&search_tab=1&within=sentence&hpp=100&search=cqp
03:31 < zipcpi> la'oi https na akti
03:31 < Ilmen> woops, that's an old urel
03:31 < Ilmen> *url
03:32 < Ilmen> http://korp.alexburka.com/#?stats_reduce=word&cqp=[tags%20_%3D%20%22traji3%22]&search_tab=1&within=sentence&hpp=100&search=cqp
03:32 < Ilmen> That one should work
03:32 < Ilmen> pei
03:32 < zipcpi> a'u
03:33 < Ilmen> That's completely unrelated, but every Saturday we organzise Lojban vocal chats via Mumble
03:33 < zipcpi> So you think vau'u / xau can be UI
03:34 < Ilmen> Here are a few recordings: http://mw.lojban.org/mw/index.php?title=Recordings_of_live_Lojban_discussions
03:34 < gleki> that page needs to be in Lojban
03:35 < zipcpi> That would allow it to be placed in the middle of the sentence if needed. Probably won't be used often that way, but *shrugs*
03:36 < Ilmen> (I'm telling you all this because I've heard you've come back to lojban after being away for a long time, so I think you mingt be interested in knowing some of the recent Lojbanic events)
03:36 < zipcpi> But yeah I think it'd be useful not just for UI1 attitudinals, but probably for many sub-selma'o in UI
03:38 < Ilmen> Also, if ever you're interested in listening to spoken Lojban, there's the very good Bripre Jikca series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRL4pzLEMyrUXwcnri_tPZjo1CxgjLger
03:38 < Ilmen> mu'o
03:38 < zipcpi> oiru'e I can't make out anything in spoken Lojban lol
03:38 < Ilmen> je'e .u'i .i na nabmi
03:38 <@Broca> The Bripre Jikca videos I've looked at had everything subtitled.
03:39 < selpahi> xu la durka pu za'u re'u gasnu lo nu la nuzba de'a fukpi benji lo me la uitki moi
03:39 < zipcpi> bripre ki'a? clause-people?
03:39 < Ilmen> en: bripre
03:39 < mensi> bripre [< bridi prenu ≈ Predicate person] = x1 is a person who has a body that expresses predicate relationships. |>>>
03:39 < mensi> bridi prenu |>>> gusnikantu
03:39 < Ilmen> .u'i
03:40 < Ilmen> Bripre is a Lojbanic fictional character, basically
03:40 < zipcpi> Oh like those second-language education videos
03:40 < Ilmen> .u'a dai
03:41 < Ilmen> ta'o mi jundi jdika
03:41 < Ilmen> co'o ru'e
03:42 < zipcpi> je'e
03:43 < selpahi> mensi: doi durka42 .i xu do pu za'u re'u gasnu lo nu la nuzba de'a fukpi benji lo me la uitki moi
03:43 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.durka42.gy. di'a cusku da
03:44 < Ilmen> zipcpi: Oh, one last thing, there have been several Lojban songs released during the recent years
03:44 < Ilmen> They can be found on YouTube
03:44 < selpahi> Or here http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_music
03:44 < Ilmen> je'e .i'e
03:45 < zipcpi> mi pu catlu la'e lu ro lo ma'a datka li'u
03:45 < Ilmen> .i stedu jinru .i je galtu rebla ua
03:45 < zipcpi> .ui
03:47  * nuzba @uitki: ce ki tau jau - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/ce_ki_tau_jau by Selpahi - ko'oi -> koi [http://bit.ly/1F1vMRv]
03:48 < selpahi> .y za'a na gasnu fa la durka .i masno ku'i
03:48 < selpahi> mensi: doi durka42 ju'i nai lobypli
03:48 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.durka42.gy. di'a cusku da
03:50 < zipcpi> sa'ei mi'u mi'u mi'u mi'u mi'u
03:50 < selpahi> .i'e
03:50 < selpahi> pagbu lo ma'a kulnu
03:50 < gleki> selpahi: xu do'o ca'o do'e la mupli do'e le gredile
03:52 < selpahi> ia go'i .i de'a ru'e si'au .i ku'i mi'a ci ja vo mei (to ma'a vo mei va'o lo nu do menre toi)
03:53 < selpahi> .i mi  2888 jufra ba'o catlu
03:53 < selpahi> .i zdile je'u fa lo nu kansi'u fau lo nu viska lo nu lo drata ca'otcidu lo mintu .i zdile fa lo nu viska lo naldra jufra
03:54 < selpahi> .i ku'i li'a so'i sai mei
03:55 < zipcpi> Oh by the way what is the replacement for GIhA under the GIJA proposal?
03:55 < zipcpi> {vau je}?
03:55 < selpahi> I don't undertstand
03:55 < selpahi> {gija} (Mad Proposals) *is* what replaces {gi'a}
03:56 < selpahi> That's the 20 year-old proposal by xorxes
03:56 < zipcpi> I thought {gija} replaced {ga}
03:56 < zipcpi> gi ja broda gi brode
03:57 < selpahi> In JACU (my proposal), there is no more GIHA, and you can use a range of things (je cu, vau je, somethings just je alone)
03:57 < selpahi> You're mixing up proposals
03:57 < zipcpi> Ah
03:57 < selpahi> GA -> GAJA
03:57 < selpahi> Under the mad proposals, GA -> JAGI
03:57 < selpahi> It's never GIJA for forethought
03:58 < zipcpi> fau'u
03:59 < zipcpi> mi ze'u na zvati
03:59 < selpahi> In {mi viska do je gleki} you can just use {je} alone, although it doesn't hurt to add a {cu}
04:00 < selpahi> (especially when walking on gravel)
04:00 < zipcpi> I forgot where I saw the proposal... it's on your blog right?
04:01 < selpahi> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/how-to-substantially-simplify-the-lojban-connective-system-my-connective-system
04:01 < zipcpi> ki'e
04:05 < zipcpi> So under that proposal {ga} and {gu} are completely redefined
04:05 < selpahi> That's right.
04:05 < selpahi> And everything else is thrown away.
04:06 < gleki> selpahi: mi ca'a na menre i ku'i mi ca'a zukcfu lo vrici lojbo
04:07 < selpahi> The Mad Proposals also repurposed {gu} (moved into GU), but it also overloaded {gi}
04:07 < selpahi> je'e la gleki
04:07 < zipcpi> Why is it called the mad proposals? :p
04:07 < gleki> {gi} overflow ...
04:08 < zipcpi> je'e u'i
04:08 < selpahi> Because back in the day any change proposal was considered completey out of the question
04:08 < zipcpi> u'i
04:08 < gleki> Because CLL was under production and lojbab couldnt do anything
04:08 < zipcpi> ie mi morji la'e di'u
04:09 < zipcpi> ju'o ri se jalge lo nu mi cliva
04:10 < gleki> xu ca lo 1997moi nanca
04:10 < zipcpi> Oh not the period I was thinking of then
04:10 < selpahi> That period went on for way longer than '97
04:10 < zipcpi> I think it was the BPFK period
04:12 < selpahi> Right, in that period there still was heavy talk of the baseline, the baseline, the baseline. It's baselined, we can't fix this, even if it's obviously bad.
04:12 < gleki> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg/672vynizxLoJ
04:12 < zipcpi> baupli fazykamni zo'o
04:12 < gleki> .title
04:13 < phenny> gleki: Google Groups
04:13 < gleki> ki'e
04:13 < zipcpi> baupli ba'e fazykamni zo'o
04:13 < selpahi> If you listen to LO JBOBAU CU MO, you'll hear the BPFK called something similar
04:14 < zipcpi> la'e lu lo jbobau cu mo li'u goi ma
04:15 < selpahi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Y9eBBTrxU
04:15 < selpahi> .title
04:15 < phenny> selpahi: LO JBOBAU CU MO - feat. danr, Ilmen and durka42 (LOJBAN RAP) - YouTube
04:16 < zipcpi> zo feskamni u'i
04:27 < zgulu> .o'a nai
04:30 < zipcpi> mo
04:31 < zipcpi> mo doi zgulu
04:32 < zgulu> mi ciska zo feskamni
04:32 < zgulu> mi'e .danr.
04:33 < zipcpi> ua
04:33 < zgulu> .i sa'u mi pe pu zu lo nanca cu ciska
04:40 < selpahi> xu la selckiku tu'a do pu spuda
04:41 < selpahi> .i na go'i tu'a mi
04:43 < zipcpi> iku'i cu satci  .i mi pu se nandu lo nu tavla fi lo nu jbobau bixpla
04:44 < zipcpi> xu da'i mi kakne lo nu finti zo vau'u
04:45 < zipcpi> tu'a zo vau'u na citno sidbo
04:46 < gleki> simsa lo gaspo
04:50 < zipcpi> ai mi citka co'o
04:50 < gleki> ma mapti ke glico xe fanva lu zauku li'u
04:51 < selpahi> "to his/her/their/my/someone's approval"
04:54 < gleki> zoi gy. his/her/their/my/someone's .gy. i'enai i au adverbivla
04:55 < gleki> i ju'onai na zasti
05:16 < zgulu> .i no da terspu vau ŭi nai
05:16 < zgulu> .o'u nai
05:19 < gleki> so again no one to work on Level0 booklet. u'enai je'e
05:46 < zgulu> lo drata prenu cu bredi lo nu pleji lo zmadu be lo me mi'a moi fo lo zdadi'u .i .oi
05:47 < gleki> oidai
05:47 < gleki> i ku'i xu do birti
05:47 < zgulu> ju'o
05:47 < gleki> i xu ka'eku lo vecnu cu jai tcida do
05:47 < zgulu> .i lo aktiione cu fasnu
05:47 < gleki> ua
05:47 < zgulu> zo tcida ki'a
05:47 < gleki> tcica
05:48 < zgulu> lo nu tcica cu cumki .i ku'i na'e cafne sei mi .a'onmo
05:48 < gleki> zo pacna cu morsi xu
05:48 < zgulu> so'i du'e prenu cu se cinri tu'a lo zdadi'u noi mi'a nelci
05:48 < gleki> i ta'ocu'i mi milxe na'e nelci zo'oi nmo
05:48 < zgulu> ta'o
05:48 < zgulu> dai
05:49 < selpahi> .oi dai
05:49 < gleki> i ji'a mi na nelci  lo nu zo'oi nmonai cu clani
05:49 < mensi> sei mi stace mi na mutce nelci
05:52 < Ilmen> .e'u lu uimnai li'u
05:52 < gleki> se'o zo m tcesimsa zo n
05:53 < Ilmen> ja'o zo uilnai
05:54 < zgulu> doi .selp. .e lo drata .i zo .aptci zo'u xu vladra .i ma krinu va'o lo nu zo'oi .antci na ka'e valsi
05:55 < Ilmen> simsa dukse zo anci
05:55 < zgulu> to mi morji lo du'u mi'o pilno
05:55 < gleki> exp:amtci
05:55 < zgulu> toi
05:55 < mensi> (CU [amtci VAU])
05:55 < Ilmen> exp: ampci
05:55 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "a" found.
05:55 < zgulu> xu ji'a zo apci smidu'e zo aptci
05:55 < gleki> exp:aptci
05:55 < mensi> (CU [aptci VAU])
05:56 < zgulu> exp:apci
05:56 < mensi> (CU [apci VAU])
05:56 < gleki> sei la alta cu da'i cusku fa zo'e noi fa zo'e cu co'e cu aptci fe zo'e ne do'e lo co'e
05:57 < zgulu> .y je'e
05:57 < gleki> en:senci
05:57 < mensi> senci = x1 sneezes (intransitive verb).
05:57 < gleki> en:kafke
05:57 < mensi> kafke = x1 coughs/farts/burps up/out x2 [predominantly gaseous] from orifice x3.
05:57 < zgulu> .u'i
05:57 < zgulu> cinri
05:58 < gleki> oi mi na ka'e senci da
05:58 < gleki> i ja'o ei mi tunlo
05:58 < gleki> i tunlo ma i zi'o
05:58 < zgulu> #gimdri
05:59 < zgulu> .i ko na lanli lo gismte .i rinka lo nu do badri po'o
05:59 < gleki> i la'a zo senci e zo tunlo cu srana lo nu lo xadni cu ba'e nenri cenba ja muvdu i va'i simsa lo si'o asna
05:59 < zgulu> zo åsna zo'u xasli bau lo sfenyska
05:59 < gleki> sei asna
06:00 < zgulu> ku'i lo sance cu panra lo me zo osna moi
06:01 < gleki> fi ma
06:01 < zgulu> .y lo terpanra
06:01 < zgulu> .u'i
06:01 < zgulu> mi na djuno fi lo satci danfu
06:02 < zgulu> ko da fi mi stidi
06:02 < gleki> la'a panra fi ro drata je nalvajni
06:02 < gleki> i zo simsa surla zmadu vau la'a
06:03 < zgulu> ki'e .i la'a tu'a zo simsa filmau
06:07 < gleki> lo se bangu be la bangu cu da'i cusku lo'u ne semau frili le'u
06:10 < zgulu> mi bulbilga
06:10 < zgulu> co'o
07:27 < zipcpi> So the "bripre" have five shapes that pulse according to sumti-place, and their body pulses during the selbri?
07:27 < zipcpi> But that's about all I can tell from those videos o.o
07:27 < zipcpi> I'm not exactly fluent... I take a lot of time "encoding" and "decoding" text
07:28 <@Broca> Huh, I've never noticed that the pulsing is synced to the text.
07:30 < zipcpi> I think I need simpler stuff. Like, second-language type videos, or the kiddy-type stuff :p
07:31 < selpahi> At least two of my corpus readings are very simple texts
07:31 < zipcpi> Where would those be?
07:32 < selpahi> .title https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBguSndiEtX7BMjHM9zudHAnBPZDN7XbV
07:32 < phenny> selpahi: Lojban Corpus Readings - YouTube
07:32 < selpahi> 1 and 5 are the easiest
07:33 < selpahi> Here's a children's book (Where the Wild Things Are): http://selpahi.de/cilce_prenu.html
07:33 < zipcpi> mi caucni la jbofi'e xau uinai iku'i ju'ocu'i mi pu dukse lacri ri
07:34 < selpahi> pe'i lo nu pilno la jbofi'e na xamgu lo tadni .i ko pilno lo besna je nai lo skami
07:36 < zipcpi> ie ru'e ku'i lo tcepluja jufra noi so'i mei bridi cu su'o roi fanza
07:43 < gleki> gloss: pe'i lo nu pilno la jbofi'e na xamgu lo tadni .i ko pilno lo besna je nai lo skami
07:43 < mensi> In my opinion a(n) event of use Jbofihe not fine a(n) study. Do it so that you use a(n) brain tanru but not a(n) computer
07:43 < gleki> brain tanru...
07:43 < zipcpi> pe'i lo nu pilno la jbofi'e [cu] na xamgu lo tadni .i ko pilno lo besna je nai lo skami
07:43 < zipcpi> claxu zo cu
07:44 < selpahi> tu'a zo cu na sarcu
07:45 < zipcpi> lo nu [  pilno [FE la [jbofi'e na xamgu]] [FI lo tadni]  ] ki'a
07:46 < selpahi> ie nai
07:46 < selpahi> zo na na ka'e nenri lo tanru
07:46 < zipcpi> ua
07:47 < zipcpi> doi gleki zoi zoi. brain tanru .zoi u'i
07:59 < ldlework> coi
08:00 < gleki> gloss: pe'i lo nu pilno la jbofi'e na xamgu lo tadni .i ko pilno lo besna je nai lo skami
08:00 < mensi> In my opinion a(n) event of use Jbofihe not fine a(n) study. Do it so that you use a(n) brain and not a(n) computer
08:00 < gleki> semau xamgu
08:07 <@xalbo> Is it possible to make {lo tadni} gloss as "a(n) student" instead of "a(n) study"?
08:08 < gleki> for now no. a better parser needed.
08:08 <@xalbo> je'e
08:08 < gleki> either i wait for others to finish it or i will do it myself.
08:10 < zipcpi> xu ma gismu tu'a lu so'i mei li'u
08:13 < zipcpi> la'a na go'i
08:14 < zipcpi> la'a na zasti brivla vau ji'a
08:15 < selpahi> zo sormei brivla panra
08:15 < zipcpi> ua
08:17 < zgulu> la'au lo se xabju be lo cilce prenu li'u iu
08:21 < zgulu> cutci keitci vautci li'utci ge'utci
08:21 < zgutci> roldei ninme'e
08:22 < zgutci> cu'e rolrafcre doi la slepi
08:22 < selpahi> nu'o .i ku'i rolma'orafcre
08:22 < zgutci> ua
08:22 < selpahi> pu zu co'a
08:23 < zgutci> xo mei
08:23 < selpahi> ji'i panono xu
08:23 < zgutci> ua
08:23 < zgutci> na mutce
08:23 < zgutci> mi ji'a va'o ka'e binxo
08:23 < selpahi> so'u ru'e cmavo cu se rafsi
08:24 < selpahi> .i ji'i 94 cmavo cu go'i .i ku'i su'o cmavo cu se rafsi za'u pa da
08:24 < selpahi> .i ta'o nai mi senpi lo du'u plixau fa lo nu djuno
08:25 < zgutci> mi pu kanpe lo du'e so'i ke'ai cizra mekso cmavo cu se rafsi su'o da
08:25 < zgutci> lo du'u* du'e
08:25 < selpahi> zo'o zo du'e to'e ki'u nai mapti
08:26 < zgutci> ue nai .i mi kanpo lo ji'a nu do senpi
08:26 < zgutci> ma pe zo du'e nabmi
08:26 < zgutci> ua
08:26 < zgutci> .u'u
08:26 < zgutci> .ai cliva
08:27 < zgutci> co'o
08:27 < zgutci> ba casnu
08:27 < selpahi> no da nabmi .i do kanpe lo nu du'e cizra mekso cmavo cu se rafsi
08:27 < selpahi> co'o do
08:37 < zipcpi> be'e
08:38 < selpahi> mo
08:38 < zipcpi> coi
08:39 < zipcpi> irci selse'u puzi spofu
08:39 < zipcpi> lo irci selse'u puzi spofu  la'ei
08:39 < zipcpi> si le'ai
08:41 < zipcpi> doi selpa'i xu do zvati lo dotygu'e
08:41 < selpahi> go'i
08:41 < zipcpi> je'e
08:42 < zipcpi> mi zvati lo mejgu'e
08:42 < selpahi> je'e
08:43 < gleki> lu co'o do li'u ge'esai i ma cliva i xu le cusku
08:44 < gleki> ji le te cusku
08:47 < selpahi> do mo lu cliva zei co'o li'u jo'u lu stali zei co'o li'u
08:47 < zipcpi> ie tu'a la'e di'u kampu cfipu
08:48 < zipcpi> go'i bau ji'a lo glibau
08:49 < ldlework> coi y'all
08:49 < zipcpi> coi
08:51 < zipcpi> ueru'e lo jbobau finti na .y. za'e viska
08:52 < zipcpi> nu malglixlu ke valsi pilno
08:54 < zipcpi> ma poi valsi cu panra zo'oi predict ja zo'oi foresee
08:57 <@xalbo> valsi: kanpe
08:57 <@xalbo> en: kanpe
08:58 < mensi> kanpe = x1 expects/looks for the occurence of x2 (event), expected likelihood x3 (0-1, default li so'a i.e. near 1); x1
08:58 < mensi> subjectively evaluates the likelihood of x2 (event) to be x3. |>>> The value of x3 is a subjective estimate of
08:58 < mensi> likeliness according to x1, and is the basic determinant of whether kanpe means something like "hope" or "wish" or "
08:58 < mensi> expect", although kanpe never carries the connotation of desire; for that connotation see pacna. kanpe with x3 not very
08:58 < mensi> close to 1 has no simple equivalent in English, but for objects/states with negligible expectation it is something like "
08:58 < mensi> wishing"; if the state is plausibly likely, it is something like "hoping". In both cases, though, the English implicatio.
08:58 < mensi> ..
08:58 < mensi> [mo'u se katna] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/kanpe
08:58 < valsi> kanpe = x1 expects/looks for the occurence of x2 (event), expected likelihood x3 (0-1, default {li} {so'a} i.e. near 1); x1 subjectively evaluates the likelihood of x2 (event) to be x3.
08:58 < zipcpi> da'i lo cliva cu cusku zo co'o .i je ku'i lo se cliva cu cusku zo je'e jonai lu je'e di'ai li'u
08:59 < Ilmen> lu co'o cliva li'u jo'u lu co'o stali li'u
08:59 < Ilmen> pei
09:00 < Ilmen> doi la zipcpi
09:00 < zipcpi> y
09:01 < Ilmen> lo cliva cu cusku lu co'o stali li'u .i je lo na cliva cu cusku lu co'o cliva li'u :p
09:01 < Ilmen> .i xu na mapti
09:01 < zipcpi> je'e
09:01 < Ilmen> .i ju'o lo drata cu cumki .i ku'i se mansa pe'i
09:03 < zipcpi> zo co'oi za'o se snigau
09:04 < zipcpi> da'i zo co'ai jonai zo co'ei
09:05 < zipcpi> ija ro re xai
09:05 < Ilmen> pe'i xamgu fa lo nu zo co'o cu nutli gi'e na jungau co cliva je'i kau tolcliva
09:06 < Ilmen> .i simsa lo nu ge zo klama cu nutli gi zo cliva jo'u zo tolcliva cu satci zmadu
09:09 < ldlework> ta'o ma cumki selci'i lo nu zbasu lo sivni jbogu'e poi pilno fi lo nu lojbo jinru
09:10 < Ilmen> y zbasu fi ma
09:12 < ldlework> la kalri sezmlugau ku
09:12 < Ilmen> na slabu mi
09:13 < ldlework> e'o glibau
09:13 < durka42> la kalri sezmlugau cu mo
09:13 < durka42> xu srana la remoi nunji'e
09:13 < ldlework> go'i .i ku'i sivni
09:14 < ldlework> zvati lo selfu pe mi
09:14 < durka42> ma glibau terfanva
09:15 < ldlework> tolju'i sera'a losedu'u glibau
09:15 < ldlework> u'o jbobau
09:15 < durka42> mi se jbobau
09:15 < ldlework> je'a
09:16 < ldlework> ta'o nai pei
09:16 < ldlework> u'i
09:18 < ldlework> jinvi ma sera'a la jbogu'e poi sezmlugau .i simlu lo ka to'e spofu .i na masno
09:18 < durka42> lo tcepru daplo
09:19 < ldlework> ki'a zo daplo
09:20 < ldlework> no da poi sezmlugau ciste cu zmadu lo ka lampru
09:20 < durka42> .y daplu
09:20 < ldlework> ua
09:21 < ldlework> .ie .i dacti fa lo daplu noi se sruri lo xamsi
09:22 < ldlework> mi'o ka'e zbasu lo xanri .i ji'a lojbo jinru
09:23 < zipcpi> .ui mi ka'e sezmlugau tu'a lo mi kibyka'i vau xu
09:23 < ldlework> mi selxanri lo nu ro mi'o clugau lo jbogu'e lo jbolardai je lo jbozgike
09:24 < ldlework> .i ji'a kelci lo jbonamkei
09:24 < zipcpi> ai mi zipcpi skari gerku
09:24 < ldlework> .i zenba lo ka ro'o sanji
09:26 < ldlework> do kakne lo ka zbasu lo kibyka'i
09:26 < ldlework> mintu la remoi nunji'e
09:26 < ldlework> la ractu cu kakne lo ka ractu
09:27 < durka42> .au la ractu di'a lojbo uinai
09:27 < ldlework> uinai je'a
09:27 < ldlework> mi xagji zo'o
09:27 < durka42> .u'i
09:28 < zipcpi> .au la ractu di'a lojbo [vau/xau] uinai
09:29 < durka42> ma smuni zo xau do
09:29 < mavas> you can some about of busy
09:29 < mavas> +amount
09:29 < durka42> ?
09:29 < zipcpi> y
09:29 < ldlework> how does one make the "cha" sound?
09:29 < mavas> Trying to translate.  My Lojban is rusty
09:29 < durka42> what are you translating
09:29 < durka42> ldlework: tc
09:30 < ldlework> ma pu kelci la piktcynairi
09:30 < durka42> mi
09:30 < zipcpi> tu'a zo xau cu te tavla la'oi https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/Of-7SJmHcbw
09:30 < durka42> ua
09:31 < ldlework> ko selxanri lo nu kelci la piktcynairi sepi'o lo cukla je lo kubli je lo tarmi drata
09:32 < royyy> Hello
09:32 < durka42> coi la .roik.
09:32 < ldlework> mi'o zbasu pa tsina poi zvati fa lo nu kelci
09:32 < zipcpi> ai zo xau cu citno cmavo tepi'o lo nu tcitygau ma'oi ui
09:32 < royyy> Where you guys from
09:32 < ldlework> .i ji'a zbasu lo tsestu
09:33 < durka42> we're from the internet :p
09:33 < ldlework> mi'a tolcliva mu'i lo nu nurxru do
09:33 < zipcpi> tcita fi lo du'u .ubu srana lo mulno jufra
09:33 < royyy> Very good
09:34 < ldlework> Anyway
09:34 < ldlework> I have *already* setup this opensim instance
09:34 < ldlework> Its available at sim.ldlework.com
09:34 < ldlework> You ust need any opensim/sl viewer of your choice
09:34 < ldlework> if you want to logon just ping me and I can make you a user
09:35 < zipcpi> mu'a lu do sidju mi lo nu mi zenba lo ni ricfu xau ui li'u
09:35 < royyy> How long have you guys learned this language
09:36 < ldlework> royyy: two years on and off (mostly off)
09:36 < zipcpi> Hard for me to answer really... I'm still looking up a lot of words
09:36 < zipcpi> Well it's hard for me to answer because I have been gone a long time
09:36 < ldlework> royyy: you can learn the core language in about 30 minutes though
09:36 < royyy> Very goo, thank you very much.
09:36 < ldlework> after that, its doing stuff like adding tense, and ownership and subordination and so on
09:37 < royyy> Im chinese, i even not speak good english
09:37 < ldlework> royyy: I bet I could teach you enough lojban so that we could communicate better :D
09:37 < ldlework> Depending on how bad your english really is
09:38 < ldlework> (you seem to be doing okay :)
09:38 < royyy> Do i need learn my english first or i can start to learn this language
09:38 < ldlework> royyy: it sounds like you have enough english to learn from someone like me already.
09:38 < zipcpi> coi mi'e zipcpi (Hi, I'm "penguin" [translated from my usual English handle, Spheniscine])
09:39 < ldlework> I'm not sure if there are very good chinese resources (not that I would know)
09:39 < royyy> And learn this language only can talk with you guys here? Or can do something else?
09:40 < ldlework> royyy: there are other lojban communities around the internet, but its not a very widely used language.
09:40 < ldlework> royyy: but its a very special language and we all love it for various reasons.
09:40 < zipcpi> Try this? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft) If you have trouble understanding we might be able to help
09:40 < ldlework> zipcpi: is that the thing gleki wrote?
09:41 < royyy> Thank you guys
09:41 < ldlework> zipcpi: :3 is that the thing we're giving to new people?
09:41 < zipcpi> do'oi Idlework: je'u
09:41 < zipcpi> I think so
09:41 < royyy> Here i can communicate with the world, feel very good.
09:42 < royyy> You guys know in china our goverment block a lot of thing on internet.
09:42 < zipcpi> Well one of the things you might find is that many Lojban root words resemble a related Chinese word
09:42 < b_jonas> ldleword: it's more like a love-hate, but yes :-)
09:42 < zipcpi> Because the original program that created them heavily favored Chinese
09:43 < royyy> Yes i heard
09:45 < Ilmen> ni'au
09:45 < durka42> .a'oi
09:45 < PrincessBecca> i heard lernu.net was recently banned
09:45 < PrincessBecca> in chin
09:45 < zipcpi> What sets Lojban apart is that its goals are to be as rigorous in definition as possible. All grammar rules are defined such that a computer would be able to parse it correctly in a single way
09:45 < PrincessBecca> china*
09:46 < zipcpi> As for words, they are meant to have only one single meaning
09:46 < royyy> Lernu.net i can connect, no prblem
09:47 < zipcpi> In other words, Lojban has no parallel to "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." :p
09:47 < royyy> We cannot open facebook, youtube, google, twitter and a lot so on...
09:48 < PrincessBecca> oh good, they must have fixed it
09:48 < royyy> And we cannot talk human rights, if not you are goin to be sent to jail
09:49 < zipcpi> If you say it in Lojban they may not be able to detect it :p Not that a lot of people would understand you though x.x
09:50 < CyanoIntrant> that'd be fun. lojban becomes the language of dissidents, causing a lot of people to learn it, including the government
09:50 < zipcpi> .u'i (= lol)
09:50 < royyy> Yes, thats why im interested in this
09:51 < PrincessBecca> it used to be that you would see chinese anarchists in esperanto chatrooms sometimes, before Google Translate added Esperanto.
09:51 < zipcpi> lo ci'ernunbi'o cu ainai tolcilcygau
09:52 < zipcpi> (the r.evolution will not be tamed!)
09:52 < Rodericus> Well, long before Google even existed my grandfather corresponded with a Czech in Esperanto and he often got his postcards with censored sentences. (When Spain had a dictatorship.)
09:53 < CyanoIntrant> o.O
09:53 < Rodericus> When one wants to censor…
09:53 < Rodericus> But Lojban certainly is less transparent. :D
09:54 < PrincessBecca> certainly
09:54 < royyy> 有人会说中文吗
09:54 < zipcpi> yi1 dian3
09:55 < royyy> Haha
09:56 < zipcpi> I haven't set it up to type han4 zi4
09:56 < royyy> Where u from zip
09:57 < PrincessBecca> i know the second character is pronounced "ren" and means "man", if i recall correctly
09:57 < zipcpi> Malaysia
09:57 < Ilmen> ua
09:57 < Ilmen> zabna
09:57 < Rodericus> As in {pRENu}? :D
09:57 < royyy> Are your parents chinese?
09:57 < PrincessBecca> Rodericus, there's no rolled r
09:58 < PrincessBecca> i don't think
09:58 < Rodericus> I mean for the origin of the word.
09:58 < royyy> Yes, it is ren means man
09:58 < zipcpi> Chinese as in descent, but they grew up here
09:58 < PrincessBecca> royyy, as in RENma :)
09:59 < durka42> 708a prenu 68.10 person o
09:59 < durka42> ren prsn puruc person pirson caxs
09:59 < durka42> (person )
09:59 < durka42> prenu 68.10 3 3 3 3 3 0
09:59 < durka42> yes :)
09:59 < PrincessBecca> err
09:59 < Rodericus> PrincessBecca: As sometimes a Lojban word seems to intentionally resemble both a Chinese word and unrelated western ones.
09:59 < PrincessBecca> remna
09:59 < Rodericus> or often, maybe
09:59 < durka42> yes {remna} has the same chinese root though
09:59 < Rodericus> ah
09:59 < zipcpi> PrincessBecca: Actually, the Chinese r is /ʐ/ so it's pronounced quite differently from English (or Lojban) r
09:59 < gleki> ldlework: usually I give people the link to http://lojban.org/papri/Learning
10:00 < durka42> mensi: doi gleki the gismu etymology page needs major formatting repair http://mw.lojban.org/papri/gismu_Etymology (not that it ever had formatting really)
10:00 < mensi> durka42: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
10:00 < sirnarwhal> Would anyone be interested in submitting a Lojban course to Duolingo?
10:01 < sirnarwhal> I find the learning format very effective
10:01 < sirnarwhal> but I think you need a small group of people to volunteer
10:01 < gleki> durka42: and so you are forcing me to fix that? :/
10:01 < royyy> Going to sleep, talk to you guys tmrw. Very happy to meet all of you. Thanks
10:01 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.durka42.gy.: the gismu etymology page needs major formatting repair http://mw.lojban.org/papri/
10:01 < mensi> gismu_Etymology (not that it ever had formatting really) | 2015-05-11T17:00:14.191Z
10:02 < gleki> sirnarwhal: can you access this website? https://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/search?q=Duolingo&restrict_sr=on
10:02 < durka42> sirnarwhal: we keep trying, they aren't convinced quite yet
10:03 < gleki> durka42: im afraid i can only fix it to the level that was originally in the Tiki
10:03 < durka42> that's fine
10:03 < durka42> maybe an enterprising Durka will make it into a proper table at some point
10:04 < sirnarwhal> gleki: thanks for the pointer
10:04 < durka42> oi mensi split the link
10:04 < zipcpi> Er what work has been done on Duolingo?
10:05 < CyanoIntrant> durka421: nice v6
10:05 < gleki> zipcpi: ewe only sent requests to add Lojban and to volunteer.
10:05 < zipcpi> Oh
10:06 < durka421> CyanoIntrant: what?
10:06 < gleki> durka421: restored. dont know what to do next with that.
10:06 < CyanoIntrant> 170455 -!- durka421 [~durka42@2607:f470:6:400d:c859:c99d:6346:b72d] has joined #lojban
10:06 < urka> ua sai
10:07 < urka> I guess my school has upgraded!
10:07 < gleki> upgraded to what? to being a university? zo'o
10:08 < urka> the jbo<->en dictionary I have installed has the etymologies in a nice table
10:08 < urka> (Arabic is missing though)
10:08 < urka> so maybe someone has already converted them into something that I can automatically format
10:09 < gleki> which dictionary?
10:10 < gleki> also some etymologies are wrong
10:10 < gleki> and some are etymologies for gismue that were manually changed. e.g. {donri}
10:11 < zipcpi> 有人会说中文吗  -> xu lo zvati cu se bangu lo jugbau [or lit: zasti {lo} prenu {poi} certu cusku {bau} jungo bangu {xau} xu]
10:11 < urka> wait, doesn't mensi have this info? mi morji milxe
10:11 < urka> ety: donri
10:11 < urka> krasi: donri
10:11 < mensi> donri = .i zo'oi ri banzuxe'o .i zo'oi deitaim bangenugu .i zo'oi din banxe'inu .i zo'oi di bansupu'a .i zo'oi dien
10:11 < mensi> banru'usu .i zo'oi naxar bangaru'a
10:12 < zipcpi> Actually I kinda like that Lojban is flexible enough for you to "dissect" many-if-not-all texts from other languages this way
10:13 < zipcpi> Sort of like the virtual-machine-code of language
10:14 < urka> midjybau
10:14 < zipcpi> .ie
10:16 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yes, lojban certainly allows you to use flexible word order. that's one thing I dislike in English, and sometimes even write English sentences that try to use unusual word order.
10:16 < zipcpi> Correction: zasti {fa lo} prenu {poi} certu cusku {bau} jungo bangu {xau} xu
10:17 < urka> {bau lo}
10:18 < zipcpi> .ie ki'e
10:18 < zipcpi> zasti {fa lo} prenu {poi} certu cusku {bau lo} jungo bangu {xau} xu
10:19 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yeah... verb in front and no tag particles. Chinese grammar always looks so strange.
10:20 < b_jonas> I can't imagine how they can glue sentences together with so few particles.
10:20 < zipcpi> Actually the Chinese selbri is 会
10:21 < urka> certu?
10:21 < zipcpi> Well, I translated it certu but it means "able to"
10:21 < b_jonas> does that mean it's more like {[lo poi] zasti [ku'o] prenu [cu] certu cusku [bau lo] jungo bangu [vau] xu} ?
10:22 < urka> xu kakne fa lo zvati prenu lo ka se bangu lo jungo
10:22 < b_jonas> able to? make it {[lo poi] zasti [ku'o] prenu ka'e cusku [bau lo] jungo bangu [vau] xu} then
10:23 < urka> interesting
10:23 < urka> zipcpi: do se rarbau ma
10:23 < durka42> oi
10:23 < zipcpi> lo glibau je lo jugybau je lo mejbau
10:24 < durka42> vlaste: mejbau
10:24 < vlaste> mejbau (components) = meljo bangu ≈ Malaysian language
10:24 < durka42> ua je'e
10:29 < gleki> anji: mi prami do
10:29 < mensi> 我 爱 你
10:29 < gleki> warning: continous usage of this tool will lead to uncontrollable laughter
10:30 < durka42> anji: xu kakne fa lo zasti prenu lo ka se bangu lo jungo
10:30 < mensi> 吗 kakne fa 者 是 人 者 ka se 語 者 華
10:30 < durka42> well, "xu" and "prenu" matches :p
10:33 < zipcpi> Well... the chinese word chosen for lo is... rather weird
10:34 < zipcpi> It actually means "agent" {roughly lo gasnu as a noun}, and is nowhere near as common as {lo}
10:34 < gleki> if you have better suggestions ...
10:35 < zipcpi> No.
10:35 < zipcpi> Chinese doesn't have anything comparable to articles
10:35 < gleki> 者 is rather a suffix whereas {lo} is a prefix.
10:35 < zipcpi> Yeah
10:35 < gleki> {lo} is not really an article in standard linguistic sense.
10:36 < zipcpi> True, but almost nothing in Lojban can be fully described with the usual metalinguistic terms
10:36 < durka42> the anji: thing is not a chinese translator, it's an alternate orthography
10:36 < durka42> right?
10:36 < zipcpi> That's why we use Lojban terms so much, which is slightly unfortunate to beginners
10:36 < durka42> yeah but still better than loglan's approach of stealing standard linguistic words and completely redefining them
10:36 < zipcpi> {xau zo'o ru'e}
10:37 < gleki> yes, "anji" was an April 1's semi-joke.
10:37 < gleki> Either we use standard linguistic terms, or colloquial terms (like what the Crash Course does) or puely Lojbanic terms (like what the Waves do)
10:38 < zipcpi> Yes... it totally isn't serious. Even though I know Chinese, I would hate it if Lojban adopted that as its standard orthography :p
10:38 < gleki> The main point is that Chinese has noun/verb distinction.
10:39 < gleki> Lojban doesnt except for pronouns.
10:39 < zipcpi> Mhm
10:41 < zipcpi> I still don't know how to deal with the jbovlaste spam. Now that i'm back I'd like to be notified, but it produces way too much
10:41 < zipcpi> Well part of the problem is that I tend to edit myself a lot
10:42 < durka42> local filters probably
10:44 < gleki> in the super-closed mailing list they/we are discussing who shall become the President and why is that position needed.
10:45 < zipcpi> cu milxe fanza mi fa lo nu la'o gy Google Groups gy na e'ande mi lo ka bixygau lo ke'a selcku
10:47 < durka42> cthulhu for president of the LLG
10:47 < zipcpi> selsku le'ai
10:50 < zipcpi> If I am voted for president, I will adopt a similar goal to Mark Rosewater: To ruin Lojban forever. Wait maybe that's selpa'i's job {xau zo'o sai}
10:52 < ldlework> doi la zipcpi xu do je'a krici la'e di'u
10:53 < durka42> ze said "zo'o sai"...
10:54 < zipcpi> mi junri panra la'oi gy Mark Rosewater gy .i va'i na sai junri
10:55 < zipcpi> la'o le'ai
10:58 < zipcpi> What would the president even do anyway
11:03 <@Broca> gleki: presumably because Virginia.
11:04 < durka42> I thought the VA requirement was just one member of the board, not the prez
11:04 < durka42> but I guess if the bylaws say there must be a president, then you can't fight city hall
11:04 < zipcpi> Wait what does Virginia have to do with Lojban
11:05 < durka42> the LLG is incorporated as a nonprofit in Virginia
11:05 < durka42> incorporated may not be the right word
11:05 < zipcpi> ua
11:05 < durka42> whatever, there is some legal minutia
11:05 < CyanoIntrant> incorporated is right
11:05 < CyanoIntrant> non-profits still have to be incorporated
11:05 <@Broca> Can you even have a corporation without a President?
11:06 < CyanoIntrant> pretty sure
11:06 < CyanoIntrant> at least the way the one I have knowledge of is run, we don't have a president, just equal board members
11:06 < CyanoIntrant> don't know if there's a "president of record"
11:08 < CyanoIntrant> look at NY form 1511-something, Certificate of Incorporation. just says "The names and addresses of the three initial directors of the corporation are:"
11:08 < CyanoIntrant> no titles
11:29 < roz> be na
11:29 < roz> mittbena
11:41 < gleki> Lojbab said one the former preisdents wasnt even a US resident
11:44 < zipcpi> By the way in "lo jbobau cu mo" there is "coi nai do", which I presume is meant to be cursing. Was {di'ai} not invented yet?
11:47 < durka42> indeed it was not
11:47 < zipcpi> je'e
11:47 < roz> no...
11:48 < roz> there was {di'ai}
11:48 < roz> di'ai is very old
11:48 < zipcpi> I think {di'ai nai do} is probably a better way to curse :p
11:49 < roz> coi nai is not cursing nor a curse
11:49 < durka42> lojbobaucumo is also very old :)
11:49 < roz> si'au la vensa cu mu'umgu zo di'ai ca lo nanca pe li re no pa no
11:50 < durka42> ie
11:50 < roz> la'au lo jbobau cu mo cu jai nanca li me'i pa
11:50 < durka42> .u'i
11:50 < zipcpi> zo mu'umgu ki'a
11:50 < durka42> jbo:mu'umgu
11:50 < mensi> mu'umgu = x1 finti x2 lo nu x3 tcaci x4
11:50 < roz> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mu'umgu
11:51 < durka42> ua la'au lo jbobau cu mo nadu la'au la lojban. mo
11:52 < roz> jetnu
11:52 < ldlework> Anyone who wants access to the opensim, just pm me your lojban name and your password!
11:52 < durka42> "Anyone […] just pm me […] your password!" o_O
11:52 < durka42> zo'o
11:52 < ldlework> hehe
11:52 < roz> pa lo re mei do se ciska co pagbu
11:52 < durka42> mi bebna
11:54 < roz> ma se rafsi ra'oi -mgu
11:54 < roz> .i mi troci co facki tu'a lo vlakra
11:55 < roz> zo mu'u zo'u kanpe co me tu'a zo mupli
11:55 < roz> .i ku'i zo mu'a cafmau
11:55 < roz> ju'i .skik. ju'i .selk.
11:57 < roz> ju'i lo mugypre ju'i lo cijyjvopampre
11:57 < zipcpi> ra'oi mgu na se curmi rafsi
11:57 < roz> ku'i ta'e fasnu fa lo na'e se curmi
11:59 < durka42> na rafsi .i mi se xanri lo nu lo rimni cu jai krinu
12:01 < durka42> la selckiku co'a ta'enai ju'i zei jundi
12:07 < roz> rimni ma .i rimse'i xu
12:08 < zipcpi> xu ra'oi tos rafsi da
12:12 < zipcpi> si'au na go'i
12:14 < zipcpi> e'apei zo tosymabru cu dunli zo valrtosmabru
12:32 < ldlework> durka42: zipcpi is logged in!
12:37 < Ilmen|2> to sy mabru
12:37 < Ilmen|2> exp: tosymabru
12:37 < mensi> (CU [tosymabru VAU])
12:37 < Ilmen|2> ua
12:37 < Ilmen|2> je'e ie bu'o
12:48 < zipcpi> How do you say "the letter y?
12:48 < zipcpi> Without lerfu
12:49 < zipcpi> ma'o?
12:49 < zipcpi> ma'o y.bu
12:51 < zipcpi> Anyway the letter-cmavo have mandatory pauses after them
12:51 < zipcpi> That's why {tosymabru} doesn't break
12:55 < zipcpi> mi cliva co'o
12:56 <@xalbo> me'o y bu
13:21 < Ilmen|2> vlaste: creep
13:21 < vlaste> 4 results: parkla, cpare, tolkufygau, spargloriosa
13:21 < Ilmen|2> en: parkla
13:21 < mensi> parkla [< cpare klama ≈ Climb come] = k1=c1 creeps/crawls to k2 from k3 via k4 using k5=c4. |>>> Cf. cpare, klama,
13:21 < mensi> reskla, cidydzu. |>>> totus
13:30 < roz> toslinyku'i
13:31 < roz> xe'e'e
13:50 < pilno> Hi guys ! Quick question : would "The light is on" be correctly translated by "lo nu gusni" ?
13:51 < durka42> just {gusni} probably
13:51 < durka42> {lo nu gusni} is a sumti
13:52 < ldlework> le te gusni cu dirce
13:53 < ldlework> if you wanted to fanva pe'a nai
13:55 < pilno> Thanks ! I'll continue studying. I was unable to find 'dirce' in the dictionary, and did not see that 'lo nu gusni' is a sumti that needs an object.
13:55 < pilno> See you soon.
13:57 < ldlework> Okay time to go home and fill up the la jbogu'e with assets and clothing and such
13:58 < roz> xyx
13:58 < roz> zisai ninkelka'u
16:26 < ldlework> coi
16:27 < durka42> coi
16:28 < durka42> xu la jbogu'e co'a culno lo taxfu je lo dacti vu'o po'onai
16:33 < ldlework> na go'i .i za balvi
18:11 < palomer> whoa, this channel has really grown
18:12 < durka42> a bit
18:14 < ldlework> since when
18:15 < durka42> palomer: when were you here last?
18:17 < palomer> 5 years ago probably
18:21 < durka42> yeah it has probably grown since then :)
18:21 < durka42> a lot of idle .irci though...
18:25 < durka42> palomer: xu do ca'o jbpre
18:25 < durka42> oi
18:25 < durka42> palomer: xu do ca'o jbopre
18:25 < palomer> I forgot all my lojban:( sorry
18:25 < palomer> so sad
18:26 < durka42> well, you answered the question anyway :)
18:26 < ldlework> all of it?
18:48 < palomer> yeah
19:20  * nuzba @morganlaco: if we all spoke #Lojban, would there be no more problems? (There would still be problems) [http://bit.ly/1dYsfKE]
19:51 < Spheniscine> I'm actually quite surprised at the potential of {di'ai nai do} as a curse. I've only really used it once (to a bot) but already I can feel the sheer malice and ill-will involved in deliberately putting that negator there
19:52 < zahlman> u'i
20:01 < Spheniscine> je'u ia lo jbobau pu'i jmive pe'a co bancu lo ka aidji lo se bangu
20:02 < Spheniscine> je'u ia lo jbobau pu'i jmive pe'a co bancu lo ka [se] aidji lo se bangu le'ai
20:02 < Spheniscine> How often is vlasisku updated?
20:10 < Spheniscine> Interestingly I think I've developed a personal style as to when I type out periods. .i is almost always typed out, because it deserves to stick out in text
20:11 < Spheniscine> I also tend to put periods around cmevla, because otherwise you may not realize it's a cmevla until after vocalizing it (and thus miss the mandatory pause at the beginning)
20:12 < Spheniscine> But I tend to omit them for other words starting with vowels, and the lerfu-words that end with y
20:13 < Spheniscine> Since I've already gotten used to making pauses around those when subvocalizing
20:13 < Spheniscine> pauses/glottal stops
20:51 < palomer> anyone here try to learn lojban using memrise?
20:51 < palomer> or anki?
21:00 < Spheniscine> I've not tried
21:01 < Spheniscine> not tried those
21:38 < zipcpi> exp: tosmabru
21:38 < mensi> (to [CU {smabru VAU}] TOI)
21:38 < zipcpi> exp: slinku'i
21:38 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "s" found.
21:38 < zipcpi> exp: ti slinku'i
21:38 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "s" found.
21:39 < zipcpi> exp: irci'ykumfa
21:39 < mensi> (CU [irci'ykumfa VAU])
21:39 < zipcpi> off: irci'ykumfa
21:39 < mensi> (irci'ykumfa VAU)
21:43 < zipcpi> Is there a place where I can test the parser without spamming everyone?
22:00 < zipcpi> ba lo nu da'i mi daspo bixygau la jbovlaste kei bu'a'a dai'i  xu ka'e cikre ri
22:00 < durka42> do daspo ta'i ma
22:01 < zipcpi> mabla bixygau loi valci velcki
22:02 < zipcpi> lo'ai lo nu mabla bixygau loi valsi velcki
22:03 < durka42> .e'u ko na mabla bixygau...
22:03 < durka42> no da tolgasnu batke
22:04 < durka42> (to ku'i la'a su'o da nurdatnyfukpi toi)
22:04 < zipcpi> je'e
22:04 < zipcpi> ai nai mi mabla bixygau
22:05 < durka42> .ai lo balvi cnino jbovlaste cu jarco lo citri
22:06 < durka42> .e'a sai finti lo cnino velcki jenaicu mabla bixygau lo zasti velcki
22:06 < zipcpi> po'o au mi djuno lo du'u la jbovlaste cu snura
22:08 < durka42> cecmu sorcu .i snura va'o lo nu nurgau
22:47 < zipcpi> uinai au irci selsku lisri
22:48 < zipcpi> la'oi KiwiIRC na sabji lo go'i
23:05 < zipcpi> mi pensi lo nu finti lo citno cmavo poi te pilno lo nu kibyjikca ke xanri zukte
23:06 < zipcpi> da'i zo xa'i
23:07 < zipcpi> mu'a lu   xa'i mi pamjai do   li'u
23:07 < zipcpi> lu <xa'i mi> li'u cu panra la'oi /me
23:22 < zipcpi> exp: mi pensi lo nu finti lo citno cmavo poi te pilno tu'a lo xanri se zukte co kibjikca mu'a  .i da'i zo xa'i  .i mu'a lu <xa'i mi pamjai do> li'u  .i lu <xa'i mi> li'u cu panra zo'oi /me pe bu'u so'a lo kibjikcyci'e
23:22 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "k" found.
23:23 < zipcpi> exp: mi pensi lo nu finti lo citno cmavo poi te pilno tu'a lo xanri se zukte co kibjikca mu'a
23:23 < mensi> (mi [CU {pensi <lo (¹nu [CU {finti <lo (²[citno cmavo] [poi {CU <te pilno> <tu'a (³lo [{xanri <se zukte>} {co <kibjikca mu'a>}] KU³) LUhU> VAU} KUhO]²) KU> VAU}] KEI¹) KU> VAU}])
23:24 < zipcpi> exp: mu'a lu <xa'i mi pamjai do> li'u
23:24 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [uU] or [yY] but "i" found.
23:24 < zipcpi> mu'a lu <mi pamjai do> li'u
23:24 < zipcpi> exp: mu'a lu <mi pamjai do> li'u
23:24 < mensi> (mu'a [lu {mi <CU (¹pamjai [do VAU]¹)>} li'u] VAU)
23:25 < zipcpi> exp: i lu <mi> li'u cu panra zo'oi /me pe bu'u so'a lo kibjikcyci'e
23:25 < mensi> (i [lu {mi VAU} li'u] [cu {panra <zo'oi ~> <pe (¹bu'u [so'a BOI] [lo kibjikcyci'e KU]¹) GEhU>} VAU])
23:26 < zipcpi> exp: .i lu <mi> li'u cu panra zo'oi /me pe so'a lo kibjikcyci'e
23:26 < mensi> (i [lu {mi VAU} li'u] [cu {panra <zo'oi ~> <pe (¹[so'a BOI] [lo kibjikcyci'e KU]¹) GEhU>} VAU])
23:33 < gleki> mensi: doi zipcpi|Sphen http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html
23:33 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.zipcpi|Sphen.gy. di'a cusku da
--- Day changed Tue May 12 2015
00:32 < gleki> do we have a list of terminators for each selmaho?
00:42 < roz> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/elidable_terminator ?
00:45 < gleki> thanks
00:45 < roz> je'e
00:45 < gleki> hm
00:46 < gleki> wait, vlasisku code should have something similar
00:47 < roz> ju'o
00:47 < gleki> https://github.com/lojban/vlasisku/blob/master/vlasisku/data/terminators.yml
00:47 < roz> banfi
00:47 < gleki> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/na'ebo
00:47 < gleki> !
00:47 < roz> ŭi
00:48 < roz> la .dag. cu banli
00:48 < gleki> never knew of this subselmaho
00:48 < gleki> NAhE+BO
00:48 < roz> ŭa
00:48 < roz> .u'a dai
00:48 < gleki> I would expect some NAhE* silliness
00:48 < roz> fi'i vitke be fi lo munje
00:49 < roz> zo'o .'uu
00:49 < roz> .u'u
01:25 < gleki> okay, so experimental sutsis now shows famyma'o http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index2.html#sisku/la%27e
01:27 < gleki> should i display links to CLL sections?
01:33 < roz> Didn't sutsis use to cut lujvo into rafsi? I don't see this version doing that
01:40 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/muvgau
01:45 < gleki> roz: xu ja'a na
02:03 < roz> gleki: mi viska http://imgur.com/HZZLUPP
02:08 < gleki> ja'o akti i zoi gy. decomposing.gy.
02:08 < roz> pofymlu
02:08 < gleki> uanai
02:08 < gleki> i ma spofu
02:08 < gleki> ta'o http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Why_PA_are_such%3F
02:09 < roz> .i stodi lo ka noisku zoi gy. decomposing .gy
02:09 < roz> .i ca no da mulgau lo nu katna
02:10 < gleki> roz: xu do na viska la'e zo muvdu
02:10 < gleki> i mi catlu lo do pixra i mi viska zo muvdu
02:10 < roz> .i zoi gy. Why PA are such? .gy. naldra gliju'a
02:10 < roz> .i ku'i djica lo ka viska ba'e ge zo muvdu gi zo gasnu
02:10 < gleki> ko za'ure'u catlu le papri
02:11 < gleki> roz: e'o do jai gau zgana lo mulno papri
02:12 < roz> lo zo pa papri xu
02:12 < gleki> la sutsis
02:12 < roz> vi'o
02:12 < gleki> i ba'e mi nelci si viska zo gasnu
02:13 < roz> ua mi co'a jimpe .i mutce lo ka cfipu
02:14 < roz> .i ro da poi se jarco valsi zo'u mi na djuno lo du'u ma kau krinu lo nu da se jarco fi mi
02:15 < roz> .i zo muvdu .e zo gasnu zo'u krinu lo nu veljvo .i zo varmuvgau zo'u krinu lo drata
02:15 < gleki> From Facebook: Duolingo has had supposedly logical people heading it for several years. Where the fuck is Duolingo Lojban?
02:15 < roz> .i lo mu'a nu zo muvdu jo'u zo gasnu .indenti ne'a zo muvgau cu sidju mi lo ka jimpe
02:16 < gleki> y
02:16 < gleki> je'e
02:16 < roz> .y .i do ji lo drata cu cusku zo'oi fuck .i lo go'i ma tavla
02:17 < roz> .i je do ma jinvi lo se cusku
02:17 < gleki> i mi ba troci doi zo'o la fanza najnimre lo ka muvgau lo mi tance
02:17 < gleki> roz: tavla lo vacri vau la'a i sa'u pau zei nai zei selsku
02:18 < roz> .i bebna co nu cpedu fi lo du'o lingo prenu fe lo ka ctuca fo lo jbobo
02:18 < gleki> i mi jinvi na'i i la masatos cu nenri i ei my jdice
02:19 < roz> .i ma ke'u cusku lo te sitna be fi do
02:19 < roz> .i mi na se slabu la .masatos.
02:24 < gleki> https://www.facebook.com/groups/linguafrancachallenge/search/?query=Lojban
02:24 < roz> tolcri na
02:24 < roz> lo girzu cu ganlo si tolgubni
02:25 < gleki> mi stidi no drata
02:25 < roz> .i drata ma
02:25 < roz> .i drata lo nu tolgubni xu
02:25 < gleki> lo nu setca le judri lo dei se irci
02:26 < gleki> i sa'u lo prenu pu casnu lo sfeni duolingos i le pa prenu cu cusku zo'ei la lojban
02:26 < roz> .i lo sfeni cu mo
02:26 < gleki> i la masatos xagiuaras cu finti la camxes pe JS
02:26 < roz> je'e .i slabu
02:26 < gleki> lo sfeni cu du lo sfe'eni
02:27 < roz> .i lo sfe'eni cu mo
02:27 < gleki> suenska
02:29 < roz> sfe'ero xu
02:29 < roz> sfenyska xu
02:30 < roz> gugdesu'e xu
02:33 < gleki> bansuve'e
02:40 < roz> je'e
02:42 < gleki> http://8ch.net/jbo/index.html
02:42 < gleki> cinri
02:44 < roz> ie sai
02:45 < gleki> xu ro da zanru la lojban http://www.ranker.com/list/easiest-language-to-learn/jennifer-lee?ref=rltdlsts&pos=1&a=8&ltype=l&l=1955738&g=2
02:48 < roz> za'a na go'i
02:48 < roz> to'e zau lo pa so mei
02:49 < roz> li'a lo tokpona cu tcefilmau lo jbobobau
02:49 < gleki> lo terjonma'o ciste pe lo jbobau cu frili zmadu
02:50 < roz> lo no ji'i mei cu terjonma'oci'e lo tokpono
02:50 < roz> .. li .. li ...    ... e ... e ... e ...
02:50 < roz> uo
02:52 < gleki> toki:but
02:52 < mensi> 11 da se tolcri: jan mute lili li kama., mi wile tawa. taso mi ken ala., monsi, nena, taso, meli mije, mi ken ala ken
02:52 < mensi> pilin e monsi sina?, mi pona. taso meli mi li pakala., mi wile lukin e tomo mi. taso mi lon ma ante., mi wile moku. taso
02:52 < mensi> mi jo ala e moku., o pilin e nena.
02:52 < gleki> toki:taso
02:52 < mensi> taso = (adjective) only, sole   conj but
02:52 < gleki> toki:conj
02:52 < mensi> 3 da se tolcri: anu, en, taso
02:53 < gleki> anu=>ja, en=>je, taso=>je[ku'i/po'o]
02:57 < roz> xu za'o jinvi lo du'u frili zmadu
03:00 < gleki> su'o tcila frili zmadu
03:00 < gleki> i ji'a lo tokpona valsi cu mo'amei i lo nu go'i ka'enabmi su'o de
03:02 < roz> ie .i pu'i nabmi
03:03 < roz> .i ku'i lo nu cilre lo bangu cu ba'e frili .i je lo kibystu cu brireisku lo ka ba'e filrai .i ku'i lo nu pilno lo tokponi lo fadni tcini cu nandu .i jo'a lo kibystu cu na brireisku lo srana
03:04 < gleki> lo nu cilre cu frica lo nu pilno
03:04 < roz> .i je'u va'o lo nu mi spucu'a cu spucu'a fa mi lo tokpone
03:04 < roz> go'oi frica .i mi tugni sai
03:05 < gleki> e'a do cuxna ge lo tokpona gi lo jbobau
03:05 < roz> ki'e
03:30 < gleki> roz: http://snag.gy/nQQhS.jpg
03:35 < roz> gleki: mutce co melbi
03:35 < roz> .i'e sai
03:36 < roz> filmau sa'u :)
03:38 < roz> ju'oi https://media.8ch.net/jbo/src/1423122906907.png uaaaat
03:38 < roz> doi .pudin.
03:40 < gleki> mi na kakne lo ka viska
03:42 < Pendrokar> palomer> anyone here try to learn lojban using memrise?
03:43 < Pendrokar> I have, but once I learned 10% of the gismu, I stopped learning new ones.
03:43 < Pendrokar> Still, don't want to lose those 150, so I come back to relearn them.
03:44 < Pendrokar> *more like remind myself of them
03:44 < Pendrokar> This is the first time I am learning another language from non-native sources.
03:45 < Pendrokar> Still I don't feel much difference, even if the mems of Memrise are play on English words.
03:45 < Pendrokar> lv: catke
03:46 < Pendrokar> en: catke
03:46 < Pendrokar> Seems things have changed.
03:46 < mensi> catke = x1 [agent] shoves/pushes x2 at locus x3. |>>> Move by pushing/shoving (= ca'ermuvgau).  (cf. danre for
03:46 < mensi> non-agentive force, lacpu) |>>> officialdata
03:46 < Pendrokar> Wow, slow...
03:46 < gleki> yes, the server became slow :)
03:49 < Pendrokar> de: catke
03:49 < Pendrokar> fr: catke
03:49 < mensi> catke = x1 [Handelnder] schiebt/drückt/stößt x2 an Stelle x3 |>>> gleki
03:49 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
03:49 < roz> jbo:catke
03:49 < mensi> catke = x1 danre x2 lo ka muvdu to'o x1 .i x1 to'e lacpu x2
03:50 < roz> lu juxre ke batke catke li'u cu'u la .xorx.
03:50 < Pendrokar> Just checking how many have been translated.
03:50 < Pendrokar> Still wouldn't be easy to transfer to the Memrise course.
03:50 < Pendrokar> it: zdani
03:51 < Pendrokar> es: zdani
03:51 < mensi> zdani = x1 es un nido/casa/hogar/guarida/madriguera de x2 |>>> xorxes
03:53 < roz> Pendrokar: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/zdani
03:53 < palomer> Pendrokar: why did you stop?
03:54 < Pendrokar> palomer, I have put my Lojban Magic 3D game on hold, should finish some smaller game related projects first.
03:54 < Pendrokar> Thanks roz.
03:54 < palomer> Pendrokar: I was talking about memrise :) but tell me about this game
03:55 < Pendrokar> Haven't revealed much about the concept - www.magia-game.com
03:55 < palomer> is it a game to learn lojban?
03:56 < Pendrokar> You would use Lojban to create magic spells.
03:56 < palomer> did you create that video??!?
04:00 < Pendrokar> I didn't mean to cast a spell on palomer...
04:21 < palomer> Pendrokar: well, did you?
04:21 < Pendrokar> You suddenly disappeared.
04:21 < Pendrokar> "did you create that video??!?" Nah, those are just examples of Magic done using incantation, gestures and will(mind control) being done in film and games.
04:22 < palomer> ahhhh
04:22 < Pendrokar> I wanted to brainstorm the idea, no one came... :(  http://www.indiedb.com/forum/thread/suggest-game-rules-of-programmable-manamagic
04:23 < palomer> I wish I could help! but I don’t know anything about this stuff
04:23 < Pendrokar> "this stuff"?
04:23 < palomer> magic
04:23 < palomer> incantations
04:23 < palomer> mana
04:23 < Pendrokar> Mana is a limiter of magic.
04:23 < Pendrokar> Otherwise magic can do everything.
04:24 < Pendrokar> That is the basic idea of "mana" in all games.
04:24 < palomer> erm, maybe I can help you a little with the marketing
04:24 < Pendrokar> I don't have anything public enough. Don't want to overhype it.
04:25 < palomer> I mean market research
04:25 < palomer> like how to get people to help you brainstorm
04:27 < Pendrokar> I know the last site(indiedb) I gave a link to allows to create your own forum. Though most make a custom one on a different site.
04:28 < palomer> the website is just one aspect of it
04:30 < palomer> I’m guessing you want to create a game that’s cool because the spells have actual meaning, right?
04:31 < palomer> or maybe it’s cool because it’s developed in cooperation with the lojban community?
04:31 < Pendrokar> Yeah, some say why not just have an interface for creating spells. It loses the feel.
04:32 < Pendrokar> There is already such game, it is called Codespells - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thoughtstem/codespells-express-yourself-with-magic/description
04:33 < Pendrokar> I was amazed that 5000 people were willing to code for a game.
04:33 < Pendrokar> *code while playing
04:35 < roz> ju'i gocti
04:35 < palomer> so you want to do something similar, but use lojban instead of block programming?
04:36 < Pendrokar> Yes.
04:37 < Pendrokar> Simplest example: "ko catke ta" makes the target within your crosshair get pushed.
04:37 < palomer> what if the spell is ambiguous?
04:37 < Pendrokar> Like?
04:37 < palomer> wait, can lojban be ambiguous?
04:38 < roz> ko catke ja lacpu ta
04:38 < roz> *menspoja*
04:38 < Pendrokar> "ja" acts as or?
04:39 < Pendrokar> so 50:50?
04:39 < roz> just or
04:39 < Pendrokar> Can Lojban be ambiguous, roz?
04:39 < gleki> {ja} is the operator OR i.e. "at least one of the two"
04:40 < roz> Pendrokar: yes, but not grammatically
04:42 < roz> read the conversation between me and gleki from some hours ago... it included some ambiguities of what things referred to
04:42 < Pendrokar> ok
04:44 < roz> lu mu bakni cu zvati lo purdi .i ko ki'u gleki li'u ju'e lu ki'a ua nai ki'u ma .i lo bakni ji lo purdi ji lo nu zvati li'u
04:45 < gleki> u'i http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/vi'e zei saske
04:46 < roz> si'au lo judri cu te katna
04:46 < gleki> ko troci lo ka mitysisku lu vi'e zei saske li'u
04:46 < roz> ie ba'o
04:46 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/vi'e%20zei%20saske
04:46 < roz> xu do mu'umgu lo ti .zeis. zei lujvo
04:47 < gleki> go'i
04:47 < roz> .u'idai
04:48 < roz> ku'i lo te pruce be lo veljvo na drani
04:48 < roz> .i zo vitke na me lo veljvo
04:53 < gleki> la rictic enai mi pu finti la sutsis i mi nu'o lanli lo lujvo katna tutci pe la rictic
04:53 < roz> das ist richtig se ju möglich
04:53 < roz> ju'i nai:p
04:57 < gleki> mo i xu mi fa'u la selpa'i cu tadni lo dotco fa'u lo rusko
04:58 < gleki> i xu mi fa'u sy bilga lo ka tadni dy fa'u ry
05:52  * nuzba @TehMillhouse: Diskussion über generisches Maskulinum. Fazit: "wir sollten alle eh lojban lernen!" m( [http://bit.ly/1G2CAjM]
05:53 < roz> .e'e
05:54 < gleki> o
05:54 < gleki> si mo
05:58 < roz> .i lo .tuŭitr. prenu cu cusku lo se du'u .e'e ma'a jbobau cilre .i se tugni mi
06:01 < gleki> la maskulinum cu mo i srana xu lo ka cilre fi lo cinse valsi cu nabmi
06:02 < gleki> okay, more terminators are added to sutsis
06:03 < roz> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generisches_Maskulinum
06:53 < roz> coi .ilmen. coi durka
06:53 < Ilmen> coi
06:54 < gleki> ue la roz ru'i jundi
06:54 < roz> .i ca lo cabdei mi tirna lo vreji be lo voksa be do
06:54 < Ilmen> ua
06:54 < roz> .i do tavla la .guskant. lo pu kelka'u pe la nu jansu
06:54 < Ilmen> y da rejgau ua nai
06:55 < Ilmen> xu
06:55 < roz> go'i
06:55 < Ilmen> .i pu jinvi lo du'u no da rejgau .u'e .u'i
06:55 < roz> lo me la cirko me'u tutci cu rejgau
06:56 < Ilmen> ga mi ganse fliba gi mipri rejgau .u'i
06:56 < roz> .u'i
06:56 < roz> go'i
06:56 < roz> .i fasnu be ca lo prula'i masti
06:56 < Ilmen> ua
06:56 < Ilmen> mi na'e morji ja'o
06:57 < roz> .i do'o tavysi'u lo cfari be lo nunkei
06:57 < roz> .i ju'o na zi fasnu
06:57 < Ilmen> je'e
06:58 < roz> .i ca lo cabdei do mo lifri
06:59 < Ilmen> mi jansu cartu lanli
06:59 < roz> .u'i je'e lalpre
06:59 < roz> xu do crebi'o la .lanujansus.
06:59 < roz> la zei la
07:00 < roz> si
07:01 < Ilmen> .u'i mi na djuno .i lo nu mi pu certu banzu kelci cu da'i selja'e lo nu mi na bebna cirko la .floridas. i pu memdusydji gi'e dukse co lacri la .kubas.
07:02 < Ilmen> .i la'a sai mi pu tolcre kelci
07:02 < roz> .u'i
07:02 < roz> .i mi kanpe co nu da'i nai la .kubas. cu jitro ro ta'orpau
07:03 < roz> .i xu do ba'anmo lo ka ca da za'u re'u kelci djica
07:04 < Ilmen> la'a fancuka fa lo se tarti be la .kaliforni'as. i lo nu la .kubas. cu cpacu la .perus. e la .nuĭork. cu da'i banzu lo nu la .kubas. cu jibni lo ka jinga
07:05 < Ilmen> .i pe'i naku ca lo cabjbi mi kelci krefu .i lo selkei cu ditcu xaksu .oi .i ca lo nu mi kansa fityzau zo'u mi pu na kanpe lo nu tai ditybra jo'u ke ditcu xagji
07:06 < roz> .i mi do pu stidi be lo nu mi'o po'o kelci lo cmata'o .i ku'i lo ni cinri cu kunti
07:06 < roz> je'e .i ju'o go'oi ditybra
07:07 < roz> mlepli zo xajgi jo'u zo xaksu pe'i .i'e ŭi
07:38 < gleki> Btw, CLL now costs $1000
07:39 < durka42> that means amazon has run out
07:40 < Ilmen> ua
07:40 < Ilmen> .u'i
07:40 < Ilmen> kargu mutce
07:42 < roz> xu ni'i lo du'u mi nau ricfu
07:42 < roz> nibli*
07:42 < roz> to lo mi besna cu prami lo cmavlbai toi
07:44 < Pendrokar> Shouldn't jbovlaste include the words that a gismu was made out of based on the 6 languages?
07:45 < Pendrokar> I found this, but is there a list of those words? - http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll/4/14/
07:45 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/gismu_Etymology
07:46 < Pendrokar> Thanks.
08:38 < Otatop> The CLL is 1000$?? will there be more printed in the future? I kinda wanted a second copy
08:48 <@Broca> No. Yes.
08:48 <@Broca> Oh, they left.
08:58 < gleki> Tiki still has from 10 to 30 sessions a day
09:11 < gleki> But LMW hasn't grown to more than 300 sessions per day. So cumulative effect of LMW+Tiki hasnt happened
09:17 < Ilmen> vlaste: cross
09:17 < vlaste> 23 results: kruca, kuckla, kuctai, kucyga'a, kucysimgau, pi'u, datcinselta'u, korgretro, kuclanli, kucyvla…
09:17 < Ilmen> en: ju'i
09:18 < mensi> ju'i = [COI] vocative: attention - at ease - ignore me. |>>> officialdata
09:27 < gleki> en: ju'i
09:27 < mensi> ju'i = [COI] vocative: attention - at ease - ignore me. |>>> officialdata
09:27 < gleki> xm
09:42 < ldlework> coi rodo
09:43 < gleki> coi gunka
09:44 < durka42> coi
09:46 < ldlework> mi cilre mutce sera'a la kalri sezmlugau
09:46 < gleki> ri mo
09:47 < ldlework> gleki: simsa la remoi nunji'e
09:49 < gleki> je'e
09:49 < ldlework> I learned that I could deploy opensim in a way where, anyone could have their own region
09:49 < ldlework> And we could have a distributed grid of regions owned by jbopre
09:49 < ldlework> A true jbogu'e..
09:50 < ldlework> But I doubt there would be much interest in that
09:51 < niek> If you set it up, I might run a server.
09:51 < ldlework> You wouldn't need to run anything.
09:51 < gleki> mi na nelci
09:51 < mensi> mi na nelci
09:51 < niek> As in, a region.
09:51 < gleki> si kelci
09:51 < ldlework> You'd just ask for your own region and I could set it up
09:51 < gleki> mi kelci no da
09:51 < niek> ldlework: I mean, I could run a grid server.
09:52 < ldlework> niek: are you familiar with the opensim stack?
09:52 <@Broca> Is OpenSim like the free version of the Second Life server software?
09:52 < niek> ldlework: somewhat. I used to have an IRC to OpenSim bridge.
09:52 < ldlework> Broca: that's exactly what it is :)
09:52 < niek> Which I ran on my region.
09:52 < ldlework> niek: Nice, I was going to set that up too
09:52 < ldlework> assuming people wanted it
09:52 < niek> Actually, I think it was only the other way around, OpenSim to IRC.
09:53 < ldlework> niek: The bridge supports two-way these days
09:53 < ldlework> it looks pretty nice
09:53 < niek> ldlework: I think I had an actual self-made version or something.
09:53 < niek> I don't remember exactly, it's been too long.
09:53 < ldlework> I want to figure out how to actually do opensim development so I can introduce lojban related addons to our grid
09:53 < niek> But I think it was based on some kind of UDP bridge to a headless IRC client.
09:54 < ldlework> I have found a bunch of free asset packs for opensim to get us started with content, but I've been reading a lot about the various ways to deploy it so that I don't waste time importing a bunch of data just to wipe it
09:55 < ldlework> And I'm on the lookout for a nice island heightmap
09:55 < ldlework> niek: do you think that 2x2 regions is enough for a lojban grid?
09:56 < niek> I'm not sure :) It's been ages since I ran OpenSimulator.
09:57 < ldlework> It really depends on how much it is adopted
09:57 < ldlework> If people find themselves being super creative and building stuff we could run out of room
09:57  * niek checks free memory on server.
09:57 < ldlework> I could always add more
09:57 < niek> ~3.5 GB free
09:57 < niek> Think that'll be enough? :P
09:57 < ldlework> niek: there's no need, we can just spin up cloud servers
09:57 < niek> ldlework: My server is already a cloud server! :P
09:57 < ldlework> I don't mind paying a couple dozen dollars to get it going
09:58 < ldlework> niek: Sure, but I'm sure it has other software on it.
09:58 < niek> True.
09:58 < niek> It runs Mumble and Apache.
09:58 < ldlework> I'd rather deploy this in a way where its repeatable and scalable and so on
09:58 < niek> That's about it.
09:58 < niek> Not even PHP.
09:58 < ldlework> hehe
09:58 < ldlework> niek: maybe you would like to get back into the swing of opensimulator and help me administrate and setup the servers?
09:58 < durka42> sounds like someone works at Docker :p
09:58 < ldlework> durka42: heh
09:59 < niek> durka42: hm? :o
09:59 < durka42> ldlework does
09:59 < durka42> or did?
09:59 < ldlework> does
09:59 < durka42> ca'a
09:59 < ldlework> durka42: last night I was thinking about how I could write a docker-based opensim service, where you'd be able to buy your own grids and scale with a web frontend just like you do with rackspace or aws, but for opensim instances
10:00 < durka42> hmm
10:00 < ldlework> There are some companies doing this but I bet they don't run on docker so maybe my costs would be lower
10:00 < ldlework> They sell to government and education so I bet there is actually some money to be had.
10:00 < ldlework> hehe
10:00  * niek is not too familiar with Docker.
10:01 < ldlework> niek: its pretty cool
10:02 < niek> Hrm. Steam is memory dumping upon start and crashing.
10:02 < niek> That is not good...
10:02 < ldlework> I wonder if one day selpahi will be holding rap-battles with nintadni around a campfire, and gleki will be giving lectures to russian jbopre
10:03 < ldlework> I wonder what the potential for new avenues of language immersion there are in such an environment
10:04 < ldlework> I wonder if I could build my idea of little scenes that support some basic roleplaying
10:04 < niek> http://pastebin.com/JQgPvVHh <- my VM instance.
10:04 < ldlework> Like a little fruit store where one person can be the seller and the other the buyer
10:04 < gleki> ldlework: no, Selpahi will be giving lectures to Russian jbopre.
10:04 < ldlework> And they can actually practice buying some goods
10:05 < ldlework> niek: you should go learn about docker so you can help me
10:05 < gleki> And I deinifelty wont play anything unless it becomes pressing which I doubt very much. Is this world at least runs in a browser for end clients?
10:05 < ldlework> niek: once you think you have an idea about docker I can give you ssh access to the servers
10:05 < ldlework> gleki: no browser access, you need a secondlife viewer
10:05 < ldlework> gleki: and its not a game
10:06 < gleki> ldlework: hasnt they finally managed to create a browser viewer?
10:06 < ldlework> not in any traditional sense
10:06 < gleki> *havent
10:06 < ldlework> gleki: those technologies are just coming around
10:06 < ldlework> there are experiments but nothing you'd want to use
10:06 < gleki> Strange. Wasn't it some 3D popular game that firefox supported?
10:06 < ldlework> like the server tech uses udp, and I don't think you can speak raw udp to arbitrary endpoints with the browser
10:06 < gleki> I dont remember its name.
10:07 < ldlework> gleki: I don't know what you're referring to
10:07 < ldlework> gleki: you could give real lessons to nintadni with our opensim
10:07 < ldlework> and answer questions and show them pictures in real time
10:07 < ldlework> use real objects in the real world to illustrate what you're talking about
10:07 < ldlework> 'real world'
10:08 < ldlework> in the physical space*
10:08 < gleki> ldlework: okay it's Unreal: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2013/12/12/first-3d-commercial-web-game-powered-by-asm-js-unveiled/
10:08 < gleki> 2013/12/12
10:08 < ldlework> Right, Unreal is just a 3D engine
10:08 < gleki> more than a year passed
10:08 < ldlework> It isn't a metaverse platform
10:09 < gleki> ldlework: remember the most important problem with this: people dont tend to install anything. well, we can force them to install a browser. That's all. That's why IRC is my headache.
10:10 < ldlework> gleki: its not important that we force people who don't want to participate to participate
10:11 < ldlework> The potential value for language immersion should be enough to sell itself. If some people don't see the value that's okay.
10:11 < ldlework> I for one want to have something to talk about to help me stay motivated to learn lojban.
10:11 < ldlework> Have actual 'things' to share and trade and play with will be incredible.
10:12 < ldlework> That anyone has the ability to create anything inside and we're all talking in lojban and sharing our creations with each other. It sounds really really nice :D
10:13 < ldlework> I'll build the island, fill it with trees, and pathways. Fill the asset library with a ton of freebie content, make sure we have some good base avatars. And figure out how to write plugins for it so we can get a global access to lojban dictionary.
10:14 < ldlework> Then at that point we can start playing primtionary and otherwise hanging out there. If its a failure oh well. I'll still have finally penetrated what opensim is all about and how to contribute to the project.
10:14 < gleki> ldlework: and it all wont work from mobile?
10:14 < ldlework> gleki: I don't understand what you think it is
10:14 < ldlework> Or how/why you'd want to access from mobile.
10:14 < ldlework> Its a 3D thing where you walk around and manipulate things. Sounds terrible application for mobile.
10:15 < ldlework> gleki: though I do know there are various like... text-only clients and stuff
10:15 < ldlework> If like, all you wanted to do was be connected and be able to contribute to text-chat.
10:15 < ldlework> If that's what you mean.
10:15 < gleki> ldlework: so you mean all the textures arent streamed from servers but must be preinstalled???
10:15 < ldlework> But if we get an IRC bridge, you can just come in here. Or some other channel or whatever.
10:16 < ldlework> gleki: What aobut what I just said, implied anything about texture streaming? you're confusing me with the questions you're asking.
10:16 < ldlework> Are they related or are you just asking me random stuff you're thinking about?
10:16 < gleki> ldlework: okay, i want to use it. My actions?
10:16 < ldlework> gleki: you download and install any second-life viewer. connect to the server. enjoy.
10:16 < ldlework> You'll get a default avatar.
10:16 < gleki> je'e
10:17 < durka42> well, any second life viewer except the official one, so you can put in ldlework's server URL
10:17 < ldlework> durka42: right, yeah
10:17 < gleki> Loglanists have an institute in SL
10:17 < ldlework> gleki: yep
10:17 < durka42> that confused me at first, I did "brew cask install second-life-viewer" and then said "uhh derp where me type URL"
10:17 < ldlework> durka42: yeah we'll have to remember that
10:18 < ldlework> Maybe I could take over a page on the wiki and start filling it out with information regarding this stuff.
10:18 < ldlework> I wonder if we have any 3D modelers or artists in general in the community.
10:19 < ldlework> Last night in my private sim, I started building a Goban :D
10:19 < ldlework> gleki: the nice thing about opensim vs sl, is that everything is free. No texture upload limits, no model limits, no script limits. We control everything.
10:20 < ldlework> We can add direct engine addons to our sim, which run extremely performantly, whereas in SL all you have access to is the in-game scripting.
10:21 < ldlework> Also, with opensim we can use C# as the in-game scripting rather than LSL which is a very terrible toy of a "language"
10:21 < ldlework> Its basically better all around.
10:21 < ldlework> We wont have problems with greifers and so on.
10:21 < ldlework> The only thing is people wont be able to 'stumble upon' our little island by accident
10:21 < ldlework> But I wonder how many people are stumbling into the loglan institute and saying "Oh, I think I'll study this"
10:22 < ldlework> I wish I could just take a week off work and just set it all up
10:23 < ldlework> hopefully niek will help me out
10:25  * nuzba @Naikodemus: Oh. #Lojban + #debian: https://packages.debian.org/testing/misc/lojban-common y https://packages.debian.org/jessie/jbofihe ; <3 [http://bit.ly/1L00FHO]
10:26 < gleki> ldlework: i see. but i wont join you. there is work in Lojbanistan for years ahead: machine translation, wiki editing, textbooks, language learning applications
10:27 < durka42> distribution of effort is allowed :)
10:28 < ldlework> I consider the ultimate language learning application
10:28 < niek> ldlework: hm, I'll take next week off, starting wednesday.
10:28 < ldlework> to be one in which you are completely immersed
10:28 < ldlework> I wonder if we could even do a localization of one of the viewers!
10:29 < durka42> that would be cool
10:29 < ldlework> There are a few localization efforts that I can see
10:29 < ldlework> So it seems possible
10:33 < gleki> niek: ldlework: if you want to know some problems that are important for Lojbanistan but have no solution as of now here is one: a bridge between this IRC chat, Twitter threads and threads in Facebook groups. Any ideas are highly appreciated.
10:36 < ldlework> gleki: yeah we could totally interact with remote API's so I think that'll work.
10:36 < ldlework> Like you can interact with remote api's even from the in-world scripting
10:37 < ldlework> Like you could create a sphere, and attach a script to it, so anytime you touch it, it announces the latest lojban twit
10:37 < ldlework> Stuff like that :D
10:37 < demize> There are IRC gateways too already.
10:37 < demize> (in LSL)
10:38 < ldlework> demize: there are opensim ones that are addons so they are more performant
10:38 < ldlework> They are integrated directly with the server
10:38 < ldlework> demize: Are you familiar with secondlife/opensim?
10:38 < demize> I used to be on SL, yes.
10:38 < ldlework> cool
10:38 < ldlework> demize: have you ever played primtionary?
10:38 < demize> nope
10:39 < ldlework> I'm sure you can guess what it is
10:39 < demize> Yeah
10:39 < demize> My old desktop comp is more or less dead though, and my laptop is too crap to be able to run SL alas.
10:39 < demize> Bit sad though, miss a few of my old friends.
10:40 < ldlework> demize: I used to know some incredible artists in there. completely lost touch.
10:40 < ldlework> demize: you know, opensim runs a looottttt smoother than sl
10:40 < ldlework> Maybe it wont be so bad on a private island with not a ton of prims yet
10:40 < demize> Yeah, with a pretty empty region it will always be rather quick.
10:41 < ldlework> demize: I'm trying to gauge how many regions I should make jbogu'e
10:41 < demize> If you do get it up and running properly you should maybe consider linking it to some other grid ;)
10:41 < ldlework> I've got one so far, and its pretty huge with nothing in it, but I can imagine it being filled in
10:41 < ldlework> demize: I thought about it, but what would be the advantage other than additional security concerns and the like?
10:41 < ldlework> I doubt we will get many migrants.
10:42 < demize> Be able to go elsewhere, also be able to more easily interact with others.
10:42 < ldlework> Maybe if our sim grows to be super beautiful and awesome and becomes a standard hangout place
10:42 < demize> *shrug*
10:42 < ldlework> demize: yeah, it isn't *too* hard to integrate with other grids.
10:43 < ldlework> demize: maybe you'll be able to help people become familiar with the way things work inside once it gets going
10:43 < ldlework> demize: btw, its already running right now
10:43 < demize> Well, I'm not so sure my laptop will like running any SL viewer at all.
10:44 < ldlework> hehe
10:44 < ldlework> demize: if you want to try it out at some point just ping me and I'll set you up with an account
10:45 < demize> Maybe later ;)
11:09  * nuzba @uitki: Bem-vindo! (Português brasileiro) - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Bem-vindo!_(Portugu%C3%AAs_brasileiro) by MegaYoshiPower [http://bit.ly/1Hf7Xcm]
11:13 < gleki> la lukas cu simlu lo ka di'a lojbo
11:44 < lablanu> How to say "center" in "center for disease control"?
11:48 < lablanu> I don't know if {midju} is understandable as "the main place/group where some bridi is most true"
11:49 < gleki> en:centero
11:49 < mensi> centero = x1 is in the center of x2
11:49 < gleki> oh
11:50 < gleki> i'd say something like {tcana}
11:51 < lablanu> Is there something similar, but more vague?
11:52 < lablanu> I need something like "the densest area where something is" or "the focal point of something"
11:53 < lablanu> en:midju
11:53 < mensi> midju = x1 is in/at the middle/center/midpoint/[is a focus] of x2; (adjective:) x1 is central.
11:53 < lablanu> That "[is a focus]" is interesting
11:55 < gleki> {midju} was indeed meant to be very vague
11:56 < gleki> because {centero}, {kernelo} and {enfoka} all seems to be narrower in semantics.
11:56 < lablanu> Could I use that like {lo midju be lo zu'o finti lo kelci} for "The place where most game development is done"?
11:57 < gleki> "most" is {traji} or {serai}. So you need something between "center of game development" and "where diseases are controlled"
11:59 < lablanu> Btw, is there a word for taking part in collaboratively creating something?
11:59 < lablanu> As in making bug fixes and updates to a piece of software?
12:00 < lablanu> In short, "development".
12:01 < gleki> cmima lo girzu be lo ka favgau lo proga
12:01 < gleki> Although again since some may complain that it's too vague for "participate" I proposed
12:01 < gleki> en:participe
12:01 < mensi> participe = x1 participates in x2 (event)
12:03 < lablanu> {favgau} is what I was looking for, ki'e
12:07 < ldlework> I don't think "center" has any spatial connotation in that name
12:07 < ldlework> Its more like "institution"
12:08 < lablanu> Even better.
12:08 < ldlework> So I would say catni or turni or some other word we don't have yet
12:10 < durka42> vlaste: jiktru
12:10 < vlaste> jiktru = t1 is an institution governing social/cooperative human behaviour t2.
12:10 < lablanu> Got another one: "I started regularly watching a tv show"
12:10 < ldlework> nice
12:10 < durka42> co'a ta'e ve skina
12:11 < durka42> pu co'a ta'e ve skina
12:11 < ldlework> durka42 cu se fagri
12:11 < durka42> stacked right scoping tenses FTW :)
12:11 < gleki> co'a di'i
12:11 < durka42> vlaste: ta'e
12:11 < vlaste> ta'e = tense interval modifier: habitually; subjective tense/modal; defaults as time tense.
12:11 < durka42> vlaste: di'i
12:11 < vlaste> di'i = tense interval modifier: regularly; subjective tense/modal; defaults as time tense.
12:12 < durka42> yyyy
12:12 < durka42> oi
12:12 < gleki> and I would use {zgana lo skina}
12:12 < ldlework> I think habitual is distinctive enough
12:12 < gleki> skina4 is intended audience
12:12 < durka42> didn't we say at some point that {ta'e} is supposed to be the volitional one?
12:12 < durka42> so regularly watching would be {ta'e}
12:12 < ldlework> I would say ta'e is the non-volitional one
12:12 < ldlework> in that its habit, rather than intended
12:12 < ldlework> :3
12:12 < durka42> well I mean a volitional entity
12:12 < durka42> such as a human
12:12 < durka42> rather than "it regularly rains here"
12:13 < ldlework> I could see that
12:13 < gleki> I dont know. We were asked for "regularly". If it's once a week then why not {di'i}.
12:14 < durka42> BPFK says di'i : dikni :: ta'e : tcaci
12:14 < durka42> I'm trying not to just use malgli keywords
12:14 < durka42> but I dunno
12:16 < gleki> jb:di'i
12:16 < mensi> di'i = di'i [preposition of aspect] — regularly (iterative aspect), di'i nai — irregularly
12:16 < mensi> :mi di'i cadzu bu'u lo panka — I regularly walk in the park.
12:16 < mensi> :pa cukta di'i se tcidu mi — I read the same book again and again.
12:16 < mensi> :mi di'i nai citka lo kokso — I eat coconuts here and there.
12:16 < durka42> jb:ta'e
12:16 < mensi> ta'e = ta'e [preposition of aspect] — habitually (habitual aspect)
12:16 < mensi> :mi ta'e citka lo plise — I used to eat apples.
12:16 < mensi> :lo verba ta'e ze'i co'a tatpi — Children tend to quickly get tired.
12:16 < durka42> za'a ba'e no da te frica vau .uinai
12:16 < gleki> pe'i frica
12:16 < gleki> i ku'i mi ca cliva
12:16 < gleki> i mi di'i cliva
12:18 < durka42> The habitual aspect is a subcategory of the imperfective aspect. It must be distinguished from the iterative aspect. While habituals "describe a situation which is characteristic of an extended period of time" (Comrie 1985: 27), iteratives consist of "repeated occurrences of the same situation" (Declerck 1991: 277); e.g. giving a sequence of coughs should be understood as a single iterative situation rather than a characteristic or habi
12:21 < lablanu> Thanks for elaborating
13:12 < roz> coi
13:15 < durka42> coi
13:21 < ldlework> durka42: ki'e
13:21 < ldlework> durka42: niek and others, I have created #jboguhe for disccusion about the opensim
13:22 < ldlework> no pressure, just making it known
13:44 < roz> bacru nu crebi'o: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFkVhcSOwwE
13:45 < PrincessBecca> mi cirko le nunkei
13:46 < roz> ma nunkei
13:46 < roz> ŭa nai
13:46 < PrincessBecca> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(mind_game)
13:46 < ldlework> me toljinga :(
13:47 < roz> ŭi nai mi ji'a go'i
13:47 < roz> mi kelci co'a lo nanca pe li re no no bi
13:47 < roz> cafne co nu ku'i to'e morji
13:48 < roz> coi .bekas. coi .cadg.
13:55 < bigcentaur> .i coi
13:58 < PrincessBecca> coi
14:02 < bigcentaur> .i pei cabdei
14:14 < selpahi> mensi: doi zipcpi  <zipcpi> Is there a place where I can test the parser without spamming everyone? -- Apart from the link you got, you can also just pm the bots (e.g. /query mensi).
14:14 < mensi> selpahi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.zipcpi.gy. di'a cusku da
16:22 < Navekko> Hello
16:23 < Navekko> Someone here?
16:52 < djancak_> the answer to Navekko's question was: no.
16:52 < djancak_> The More You Know
17:05 < durka42> djancak_: what was Navekko's question?
17:06 < djancak_> "Someone here?"
17:06 < djancak_> * Navekko has quit (Client Quit)
17:06 < durka42> heh
17:07 < keidji1> Are they new?
17:08 < durka42> la'a
17:08 < durka42> I don't recognize the name
17:13 < keidji1> .i xu lo nu keljansu cu fanmo
17:15 < durka42> na sai fanmo .u'i
17:16 < durka42> ro da jansysi'u je janlysi'u: http://www.webdiplomacy.net/map.php?gameID=158336&turn=12&mapType=large
19:45 < Spheniscine> coi
19:45 < mensi> Spheniscine: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes-exp.html | 2015-05-12T06:33:56.
19:45 < mensi> 842Z
19:46 < Spheniscine> ki'a .i mi slabu la ilmentufa
19:47 < Spheniscine> ki'e... how to say "anyway"?
19:54 < Spheniscine> mi na jimpe lo du'u makau krinu lo nu me'o MZ na se javni .i ku'i co'e a'u cu'i
19:56 < Spheniscine> xu da zvati
19:56 < Spheniscine> be'e
20:03 < durka42> MZ mo
20:03 < durka42> la gleki pu djica lo nu do pilno lo uebre jenai .irci ilmentufa
20:03 < Spheniscine> me'o my zy na se javni lo ka nenri lo jbobau valsi
20:04 < Spheniscine> fi lo ka le'ai
20:05 < durka42> ua
20:05 < Spheniscine> ... guessed the place structure wrong. te javni is wrong
20:05 < durka42> dukse lo nu simsa me'o MS vau ba'anai
20:06 < Spheniscine> je'e ru'e
20:07 < Spheniscine> na ru'e tugni i'au ku'i a'u cu'i
20:09 < durka42> zo .i'au mo
20:09 < durka42> ua zo .i'au cu basti zo xau pe lo prulamdei xu
20:09 < Spheniscine> je'u
20:11 < Spheniscine> zo i'au basti zo xau noi ji'a pu basti zo vau'u
20:12 < durka42> .u'i
20:12 < durka42> zo xau zasni sance so'i valsi
20:12 < durka42> xau nau braunkau
20:12 < Spheniscine> ca ca'o se jbovlaste
20:12 < durka42> mensi: ko ningau
20:13 < Spheniscine> co'a le'ai
20:13 < Spheniscine> lo'u xau nau braunkau le'u u'i
20:14 < durka42> xu la mensi co'u jundi
20:14 < durka42> mensi: ko ningau lo nei
20:14 < durka42> en: xau
20:14 < durka42> uinai
20:15 < durka42> zo xau ca se jbovlaste fi'o se valsi lo sumtcita
20:15 < durka42> .i ja'o zo lo'u na jai sarcu
20:16 < Spheniscine> je'e u'i
20:18 < durka42> di'a zva'ati
20:18 < durka42> .y
20:18 < durka42> si si de'a zva'ati
20:20  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: The last post give me an idea to write a fiction novel narrative in english, but with lojban elements in it. it could be interesting. ^^ :D [http://bit.ly/1F63Njt]
20:21 < Spheniscine> xu zo zva'ati se smuni lo ka fe'e nau'u zvati
20:28 < Spheniscine> mi na djuno lo du'u makau se cafne lo nu ningau fa lo vlaste pe la mensi je la vlasisku sepi'o la jbovlaste
20:29 < Spheniscine> exp: mi na djuno lo du'u makau se cafne lo nu ningau fa lo vlaste pe la mensi je la vlasisku sepi'o la jbovlaste
20:29 < mensi> (mi [CU {na djuno} {lo <du'u (¹[ma kau] [CU {se cafne} {lo <nu (²CU [ningau {fa <lo (³vlaste [pe {<la mensi KU> <je (⁴la vlasisku KU⁴)>} GEhU]³) KU>} {se pi'o} {la jbovlaste KU}] VAU²) KEI>
20:29 < mensi> KU} VAU]¹) KEI> KU} VAU])
20:30 < Spheniscine> cu pluja jufra
20:32 < Spheniscine> ma temci tcita fi lo ka cafne
20:33 < Spheniscine> [And I think some sentences deserve a way to ask "how true" something is - you know, fuzzy logic for [glare] vs [lenku]
20:34 < Spheniscine> To ask how [glare] something is... there's probably something but I don't know/recall it
20:40 < Spheniscine> mi milxe se spaji lo nu mi su'ore'u ke'ucni lo srana co jbobau
20:41 < Spheniscine> ke'ucni = "deja vu"
21:06 < bradlim> coi ro do
21:11 < bradlim> i. mi tadni la lojban i. mi nincu'uzo'e
21:48 < ldlework> :(
22:59 < gleki> en:coi
22:59 < mensi> coi = [COI] vocative: greetings/hello.
23:02 < gleki> mensi: doi durka {di'i} is about regular intervals with a stable frequency. {ta'e} may not satisfy this requirement
23:02 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.durka.gy. di'a cusku da
23:04 < gleki> mensi: doi zipcpi|Sphen you asked where you can test bots without disturbing this channel. i gave you a link to the web version of the parser. mensi's functions can also be tested at http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/naxle.html
23:04 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.zipcpi|Sphen.gy. di'a cusku da
23:16 < Rodericus> lb: bo
23:16 < mensi> bo = bo [1st meaning] — more tightly binds two parts inside a compound verb
23:16 < mensi> :mi pu penmi lo drata merko bo jbopre — I met another American Lojbanist.
23:16 < mensi> :ko catlu lo cmalu ractu kevna — Look at a hole of small rabbits.
23:16 < mensi> :ko catlu lo cmalu ractu bo kevna — Look at a rabbit hole that it small.
23:16 < mensi> :Related words: ke
23:21 < lablanu> gleki: In the Crash Course, under "Emotional interjections, {.ie ta mlatu} is translated as "Yes, that thing is big".
23:23 < gleki> lablanu: ah, i need to finally incorporate the mistypes i found. but let me fix that for you now.
23:33 < lablanu> Is there a Talk: page?
23:42 < gleki> yes
23:42 < gleki> do you want to send feedback?
--- Day changed Wed May 13 2015
00:06 < skari> If you'd like me to
00:06 < gleki> you'd better just send me emails
00:07 < gleki> but as u wish
00:08 < lablanu> I really have to think about how I could be useful
00:09 < lablanu> Translating common phrases seems  most efficient right now
00:31 < gleki> skari: you may think of better phrases for the course. The order of how the gramar is explained wont change much but the examples may become different. How useful is the example with "cats drinking milk"? Not much except in grammar
00:44 < selrun> coi ro do
00:44 < gleki> coi
00:48 < skari> coi
00:48 < selrun> zo'e pei fasnu
00:48 < skari> ie
00:52 < selrun> .ui xamgu
00:54 < skari> je'e
00:54 < skari> do zukte ma
00:58 < selrun> finti lo zgike skina
01:00 < selrun> ki'u te bende
01:00 < skari> a'usai
01:07 < skari> ma te bende
02:06 < selrun> u'u doi skari .i mi gunka va'o lo livla zarci .i lo te bende jatna ra
02:33 < selrun> co'o ro jbopre .i mi ca cliva ki'u lo nu nitcu lo sipna
02:47 < skari> doi selrun .i ki'u ma lo livla zarci cu nitcu lo zgike skina
03:09 < gleki> From Facebook: Are there any good resources to learn Lojban for people who are familiar with predicate logic and formal semantics of natural languages (Montague grammar)?
04:14 < roz> To facebook: no
04:33 < gleki> roz: IRC/Facebook bridge isnt working yet
07:42 < lablanu> Has anyone heard of the Ryonic alphabet?
07:43 < gleki> now yes. but the problem with all this stuff is that we have no means to produce texts in them automatically
07:45 < lablanu> Not yet
07:45 < lablanu> A font has to be made.
07:46 < lablanu> I'm working on accommodating the Ryonic alphabet for Lojban
07:47 < gleki> Could you please look at some javascript tool to produce texts in Blissymbols?
07:51 < gleki> sorry, not look but consider creating such a tool or adapting existing tools?
07:53 < lablanu> I am not too familiar with Blissymbols and don't know how I could go about doing that.
07:53 < lablanu> Just translate words into symbols?
07:55 < gleki> Well, actually someone needs to convert existing svg images into a web font
07:56 < lablanu> I don't know how to do that, either. I've only played around with switching letters in an existing font.
07:58 < lablanu> I don't think logograms are feasible for a language with a large vocabulary.
08:42 < lablanu> The colon character is not needed in Lojban, right?
08:49 < roz> nope
08:50 < roz> humorously suggested to be uppercase .
08:50 < durka42> coi
08:50 < mensi> durka42: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: {di'i} is about regular intervals with a stable frequency. {ta'e} may not satisfy this
08:50 < mensi> requirement | 2015-05-13T06:02:55.186Z
08:50 < roz> coi durka
08:51 < roz> mnzba
08:52 < durka42> lo kibjasyselkei cu za'o fasnu
08:52 < roz> go'i
08:52 < durka42> xu melbi bu'u la .iukon. ja la .uaiomin.
08:53 < roz> ge'e
08:54 < roz> do gridi
08:56 < roz> .a'o do jo'u lo drata cu na sisti lo ka kelci
08:56 < roz> .i a'o lo jinga cu pa po'o mei
09:04 < durka42> ie
09:04 < durka42> lo ka gridi cu ka kelci la jansu
09:07 < gleki> en:coi
09:07 < mensi> coi = [COI] vocative: greetings/hello.
09:09 < durka42> en: .i'au
09:10 < durka42> en: i'au
09:10 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
09:10 < mensi> 25 da se tolcri: ci'au'u'au'i, dei'au'o, di'au, kei'au, ni'au, pi'ei'au, ra'i'au, ra'i'aucu'i, ra'i'aunai, ri'au, si'au,
09:10 < mensi> to'ei'au, zei'ei'au, dau'a, de'ai, de'au, di'ei, di'oi, doi'a, fi'oi, kei'ai, mau'au, vau'au'o, zei'ei,
09:10 < mensi> zei'oi
09:10 < durka42> wat
09:10 < durka42> jbo: i'au
09:11 < mensi> si'au = [UI2] tcita lo se cusku noi la'e ri bridi gi fa'u na bridi ku'o lo du'u la'e ri simlu lo ka ce'u fa'u tu'a ri
09:11 < mensi> jetnu kei lo cusku be vo'e
09:14 < durka42> za'a la zipcpi cu krefu finti zo fu'e je zo fu'o
09:15 < gleki> mensi: ko cnino
09:16 < mensi> sei ca ca'o jai gau cnino be fai lo pe mi sorcu
09:16 < durka42> en: i'au
09:16 < mensi> 25 da se tolcri: ci'au'u'au'i, dei'au'o, di'au, kei'au, ni'au, pi'ei'au, ra'i'au, ra'i'aucu'i, ra'i'aunai, ri'au, si'au,
09:16 < mensi> to'ei'au, zei'ei'au, dau'a, de'ai, de'au, di'ei, di'oi, doi'a, fi'oi, kei'ai, mau'au, vau'au'o, zei'ei,
09:16 < mensi> zei'oi
09:17 < ldlework> coi durka
09:17 < durka42> coi
09:17 < gleki> masno je masno je masno
09:17 < durka42> la jbovlaste puzi co'a mo
09:17 < gleki> i badri je badri je badri djedi i ju'i plise
09:17 < durka42> lo uebre na se cpacu mi
09:17 < durka42> ua cpacu
09:18 < mensi> i ba'o jai gau cnino
09:18 < gleki> en:i'au
09:18 < mensi> i'au = [UI8] attitudinal scope modifier: marks following attitudinal/UI-cluster as applying to the entire sentence or
09:18 < mensi> statement
09:18 < gleki> xu naku lo gaspo cu simsa
09:19 < gleki> i da gaspo tutci ba'anairu'esai lo nu volve lo jufra ke gerna senta
09:19 < gleki> si tcana
09:25 < palomer> hey guys, who here would be interested in a multiplayer videogame to learn lojban?
09:25 < roz> me, me!
09:25 < durka42> what videogame?
09:26 < palomer> I’m just trying to see if there’s any interest at the moment
09:26 < palomer> if enough people want it I might develop it
09:26 < palomer> multiplayer quiz game
09:26 < palomer> like “you don’t know jack"
09:26 < roz> do na se slabu la .jak.
09:26 < roz> .iak.
09:26 < roz> la iak.
09:26 < roz> ju'i nai
09:27 < palomer> exactly.
09:27 < palomer> so, uh, only one person here wants this?
09:28 < durka42> I might be interested
09:28 < durka42> but I'm not usually that much for video games
09:28 < ldlework> palomer: any chance I can convince you to build it ontop of OpenSim?
09:28 < durka42> also, you only waited like 2 minutes for a response, that isn't close to enough time here :)
09:28 < ldlework> palomer: if that interests you please visit #jboguhe
09:29 < gleki> ti'e People  in #jbopre play videogames.
09:30 < palomer> idlework: opensim sounds like an interesting project
09:31 < ldlework> palomer: I'm going to create an entire language immersion environment for lojban in opensim
09:31 < palomer> but I’d first develop it in html
09:31 < ldlework> Having content like games such as the one you mention would be great
09:31 < gleki> palomer: in html? without js zo'o?
09:31 < roz> Who here would be interested in a simplifed version of Lojban!?
09:32 < palomer> ldlework: wicked! I’d totally like to try that out
09:32 < gleki> ti'e la gleki had the idea of Simplified Lojban like 4 years ago.
09:32 < palomer> gleki: with javascript of course :P
09:32 < palomer> gleki: and a python backend or something
09:32 < gleki> palomer: my humble suggestion is node.js because that's all i now.
09:33 < palomer> gleki: I already know python  . Too lazy to learn another platform
09:34 < roz> gleki: how did it go
09:35 < palomer> what is #jbopre ?!?
09:36 < roz> yeah, what's that channel for?
09:36 < gleki> roz: go what?
09:36 < roz> the idea
09:37 < durka42> #jbopre is basically #lojban-offtopic
09:37 < roz> that seems to suggests that lojbanists are always off-topic
09:37 < roz> suggest*
09:37 < gleki> roz: someone from the Russian group translated toki pona wordlist to Lojban, found pictures for each concept. the lojban-tokipona list is in the wiki. pictures are... somewhere in a word doc. i havent uploaded it anywhere
09:38 < roz> .a'u who's in the russion group besides youu
09:38 < gleki> roz: #jbopre is for those lojbanists who were lazy to learn Lojban
09:38 < roz> .u'i
09:38 < gleki> roz: who was? i stopped doing anything in it. what for? ww translated the Waves but that didnt help a lot.
09:39 < gleki> *we translated
09:39 < roz> who was and who is? i don't hear anything from a russian group these days
09:40 < roz> ku'i cinri co nu da'i nai la zbabu cu to ca da toi se bangu lo rusko
09:40 < roz> xu do'o bau ta'arsi'u
09:42 < gleki> roz: because it died. they didnt speak English. And here it's still spoken.
09:42 < roz> ji'a doi .gelk. lo tokpona kulnu cu jai cifpu mi .i simlu ba'e ge cacando mutce gi pu zu tolcando .i ma fasnu sei xu do djuno  .i xu lo ni cinri cu farlu lo loldi
09:43 < gleki> roz: na tavla zu'ai i ku'i la zbabu pu cpedu fi mi fe zo'ei la noras noi la'a vukro je rusko imi pu sidju
09:44 < gleki> roz: lo tokpona cecmu cu no'e morsi gi'e ku'i na zombi i sa'u so'u sai da tavla zu'ai i si'au la pycy ncu traji lo ka certu co tokpona i ji'a la janMato pu finti lo tokpona gentufa i mi na sel slabu lo drata nuzba
09:44 < roz> je'e zu'ai .i ma me zo'ei la .noras. gi'e vurjveru'o srana
09:44 < roz> je'e .zu'ais.
09:44 < roz> to li'a mi se zdile lo nu do da'i nai sai pilno zo zu'ai toi
09:46 < roz> no'i lo tokpone'yklu zo'u mi ja'i cumki fai lo ka cinmo lo nu lo jbobyklu cu morsi va'o lo nu da'i mi na pagbu gi'e lamji catlu je sanli
09:46 < gleki> roz: mi na mulno jimpe gi'e na pu troci lo ka jimpe i ku'i la'acu'i la noras pu xabju la vukro gugde i la zbabu pu cpedu lo nu mi fanva su'o lo laldo papri i srana lo morsi cmima be lo lanzu be la noras
09:47 < gleki> i sa'e la noras pu xabju ija lo dzena be la noras pu xabju
09:47 < roz> ue
09:47 < roz> cinri
09:47 < roz> .i xu do se vurbau
09:47 < gleki> https://github.com/matthewdeanmartin/tokipona.parser
09:47 < roz> .a'u ki'e
09:47 < gleki> roz: lo papri pu rusko i mi na se vukrybau
09:48 < gleki> i sa'e lo papri pu softo
09:48 < gleki> http://tokipona.net/parser/ i melbi
09:48 < roz> .u'i sai mi na pu sanji zo softo .i zdivla sai
09:49 < gleki> ue i xu do sanji zo sofybakni
09:49 < gleki> https://vimeo.com/113351301
09:49 < roz> .u'i ja'a go'i
09:50 < roz> si'au mi pu se slabu lo rafsi ku po'o .e nai lo se rafsi
09:50 < roz> .i na pa re'u fasnu
09:50 < roz> co'o .laurapalmer.
09:51 < gleki> zo softo gismu i ja'o la lojban cu pagbu lo lenku jamna cedra
09:51 < roz> mi ji'a se slabu zo jbojevysofco'e ......
09:51 < roz> .y
09:51 < roz> .i mi sa'a nai se slabu zo'e ba'e ji'a
09:53 < gleki> en:sa'anai
09:53 < mensi> 14 da se tolcri: cu'ei, cu'ei'a, cu'ei'ai, cu'ei'e, cu'ei'ei, cu'ei'i, cu'ei'o, cu'ei'oi, cu'ei'u, fu'ei'a, fu'ei'e,
09:53 < mensi> fu'ei'i, fu'ei'o, fu'ei'u
09:53 < roz> .i mi .u'enmo lo me la gusni kantu me'u skina
09:53 < gleki>  fu'ei'a, fu'ei'e,fu'ei'i, fu'ei'o, fu'ei'u...
09:53 < gleki> en:sa'a
09:53 < mensi> sa'a = [UI3a] discursive: material inserted by editor/narrator (bracketed text).
09:53 < roz> .i mi sa'alnai zo ji'a
09:54 < roz> .i mi vimcu sa'u
09:54 < gleki> cinri i mi na pilno zo sa'a i mi na djuno lo tadji be lo nu pilno
09:54 < roz> .i za'a zo sa'a simlu lo ka se prami no da
09:54 < roz> .i lo braxuncku cu se pagbu lo cmalu pe zo sa'a
09:54 < gleki> i xu zo sa'a ka'e klama lo bartu be lo lu zei jufra
09:55 < gleki> y
09:55 < roz> .u'i
09:55 < roz> .i ju'o cukmi co nu klama .i ku'i ji'a cumki co nu no da smuni
09:56 < gleki> i xu zo sa'a pe ne'i lo lu zei jufra ka'e sinxa lo na pagbu be le lu zei jufra
09:56 < roz> .i li'a dai mi pu zi pilno zo sa'a ta'i lo jai se ke djica je jdice ke'e be mi
09:57 < gleki> li'acu'i
09:57 < roz> .i mi na djuno .i la'a zo sa'a spofu .i ma tadji lo nu sitna fi zo sa'a gi'e nai galfi lo te sitna
09:57 < roz> gafygau*
09:58 < gleki> ai mi ca da cikre la'e la alis i li'a mi ba pilno lo sitna tadji poi drata
09:58 < roz> .i mi cinmo tai la'e di'e .i lo se finti be lo jbobo cu pu lo nu jmina lo vrici lo bangu cu rinpei na ku
09:59 < gleki> zo rinpei ge'e
09:59 < roz> .i me la .alis. pe la xorxes xu
09:59 < gleki> i za'e zei lujvo
09:59 < roz> ge'e dai ŭi
09:59 < gleki> roz: ie
09:59 < roz> .i pe'i na za'e zei lujvo .i pilno fi tu'a lo selsa'a ku poi ma'a ke'a se melbi
10:00 < roz> .i xu da pe la .alis. cu cfila gi'e nitcu lo ka se cikre
10:00 < roz> to lo mi mensi cu se cmene zo .alis. .i mi ba zi penmi la'e ri toi
10:04 < gleki> so'a lo rutni bangu cecmu co'a morsi i seni'ibo lo rusko jbobau co'a morsi i sarcu fa lonu su'o 20 pe'i prenu cu tavla zu'ai
10:05 < gleki> roz: ua do xabju lo selmanci gugde
10:05 < gleki> i xu do rctu
10:05 < gleki> si ractu
10:05 < roz> .i xu ma'a poi jbopre cu su'o re no mei
10:06 < roz> .i mi se rectu ju ractu
10:06 < roz> to ta'o mi nelci lo sance po'u ra'oi .ctu. toi
10:07 < roz> .i ŭa zo porsi cu se cmavlbai da no'u zo po'i .u'i .u'a cu'i
10:11 < roz> .i zo cmavlbai jai nandu mi fai lo ka ka se skicu bau lo jbobo
10:21 < gleki> jb:po'i
10:21 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
10:21 < gleki> zo po'i ka'e plixau i ku'i na sampu jbobau i seki'u bo mi pu vimcu
10:22 < gleki> i ta'o mi pu djica lo nu ba'e la bangu cu sampu jbobau
10:22 < gleki> i ku'i ca ti no'e sampu gi'e no'e mulno
12:08  * nuzba @uitki: what Is Lojban?, The Book - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/what_Is_Lojban%3F,_The_Book by Durka42 - /* Downloading What is Lojban? */ [http://bit.ly/1IBG2SG]
12:31 <@rlpowell> /home/rlpowell/oldhometmp/rlpowell/big_media/wil/0966028317-frontcover.jpg /home/rlpowell/oldhometmp/rlpowell/big_media/wil/0966028317.zip /home/rlpowell/oldhometmp/rlpowell/big_media/wil/0966028317.pdf
12:31 <@rlpowell> ^^ A WINNER IS ME!!!
12:32 < durka42> niice
12:32 < durka42> is that number an encoded date somehow?!
12:33 <@rlpowell> No, taht's the ISBN.
12:33 < durka42> oh it's an ISBN isn't it
12:33 < durka42> "temporary" folders FTW :)
12:35  * nuzba @RussellEH: @sarefo Hi. Sorry if this isn't the best way to contact you. Could I ask you a question about some Lojban work you did? [http://bit.ly/1AXvRl5]
12:45  * nuzba @uitki: Webchat url qwebirc - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Webchat_url_qwebirc by Ionac - http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23lojban%2C%23ckule [http://bit.ly/1JedFuq]
12:46 < zipcpi> be'e
12:46 < mensi> zipcpi: cu'u la'o gy.selpahi.gy.:  <zipcpi> Is there a place where I can test the parser without spamming everyone? --
12:46 < mensi> Apart from the link you got, you can also just pm the bots (e.g. /query mensi). | 2015-05-12T21:14:09.
12:46 < mensi> 682Z
12:46 < mensi> zipcpi: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: you asked where you can test bots without disturbing this channel. i gave you a link to
12:46 < mensi> the web version of the parser. mensi's functions can also be tested at http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/
12:46 < mensi> naxle.html | 2015-05-13T06:04:34.165Z
12:48  * nuzba @uitki: Webchat url kiwi - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Webchat_url_kiwi by Ionac - https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#lojban,#ckule [http://bit.ly/1AXxq2p]
12:48 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki: Oh yeah... forgot about that. Must've been a brain-fart.... though the web version does lack the "alta" version though that marks the place structure
12:48 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki:.gy. di'a cusku da
12:48 < zipcpi> ... I think I did that wrong
12:49 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki Oh yeah... forgot about that. Must've been a brain-fart.... though the web version does lack the "alta" version though that marks the place structure
12:49 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
12:50 < durka42> you can use "alta" here http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/ircbot/naxle.html
12:50 < zipcpi> ki'e doi durka
12:51 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki Nevermind, durka gave me the link to that
12:51 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
12:55  * nuzba @uitki: Welcome!/en - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!/en by Ionac - change webchat link [http://bit.ly/1AXy5Rx]
12:55 < b_jonas> .
12:56 < durka42> ,
12:58  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban IRC - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_IRC by Ionac - /* Connecting quickly */ [http://bit.ly/1JefQym]
12:58 < durka42> this is why I originally filtered out @uitki from nuzba, .u'i
12:59 < web_jonas> coico'o
13:01 < demize> Short visit ;p
13:01 < b_jonas> demize: I'm still here
13:01 < b_jonas> with this connection
13:02 < demize> Heh, ah.
13:06  * nuzba @uitki: Webchat url - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Webchat_url by Ionac - http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23lojban%2C%23ckule%2C%23jbosnu [http://bit.ly/1AXzqI6]
13:08  * nuzba @uitki: 案内 - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/%E6%A1%88%E5%86%85 by Ionac [http://bit.ly/1AXzAz8]
13:08  * nuzba @uitki: Bem-vindo! (Português brasileiro) - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Bem-vindo!_(Portugu%C3%AAs_brasileiro) by Ionac - /* IRC */ [http://bit.ly/1JehT5k]
13:08 < durka42> okay, putting back in the uitki filter for now
13:08 < b_jonas> (seriously, most of the pt.br welcome page is in English)
13:16 < zipcpi> coi ru'e fu'e ai mi bazi sipna
13:17 < zipcpi> co'o
14:04 < deacre> clickclick
14:05 < keidji1> boom?
14:07 < heliophos> coi
14:08 < durka42> coi
14:08 < Ilmen> coi solri
14:09 < Ilmen> se .u la solri
14:10 < heliophos> i dont actually know how to speak lojban i only know how to say hello
14:10 < Ilmen> Hi, and welcome here
14:11 < heliophos> yes thank you
14:11 < Ilmen> "coi la solri" — "hello, Sun!"
14:12 < heliophos> oh, i didn't know that.
14:12 < heliophos> i came here to ask about ways to learn lojban since there is no set way of learning it. i'm looking for the most effective ways that other people learned it and such. this language seems really interesting and i'd like to learn it, i just don't really know how to approach learning it.
14:13 < Ilmen> Have you been learning other languages?
14:13 < Ilmen> Just out of curiosity
14:14 < heliophos> actually no i do want to learn a language though. i am interested in learning languages and i've really never gotten an opportunity or motivation to figure out how to learn a language on my own
14:14 < Ilmen> As for me, I've learnt Lojban mostly by reading the Wave Lessons, asking and discussing here on IRC, reading the mailing list...
14:15 < Ilmen> I've also used Anki for memorizing vocabulary
14:15 < heliophos> interesting, i will look at the wave lessons.
14:15 < Ilmen> heliophos: Oh, okay
14:16 < Ilmen> http://mw.lojban.org/mw/index.php?title=Lojban_Wave_Lessons
14:18 < Ilmen> Well, if you've never learn another language apart from English, one of the disorienting things is the change in grammar stucture, one need to get accustomed to a new way of putting words together
14:19 < Ilmen> But you'll quickly get accostumed to it I think
14:20 < Ilmen> I think learning Lojban can help a lot if an when you'll want to learn another language
14:20 < Ilmen> Generally speaking, knowing a second language makes it easier to learn a third one, and so on
14:21 < Ilmen> And as Lojban as a pretty simple and very regular syntax (although admittedly a pretty exotic syntax in comparison to English for example)
14:22 < Ilmen> and a small and flexible lexicon, so you can already get by very well with like 500 words of vocabulary
14:24 < Ilmen> There are word lists sorted by frequency, which is helpful for first focussing on the most common words
14:25 < Taun>            (coi)
14:25 < Ilmen> coi
14:26 < Taun>             ( ; i )
14:27 < Ilmen> heliophos: If you have a try reading the Wave Lessons and do not understand something, you're welcome to ask here :)
14:28 < Ilmen> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/the_Complete_Lojban_Language
14:29 < Ilmen> This is the CLL (The Complete Lojban Language book), it's the reference grammar for Lojban; however it's not intended to be a course, but more a grammar reference
14:34 < Taun> Is anything nEaT going on?
16:48 < demize> gleki: I like that sutsis shows the terminators now
16:49 < demize> gleki: Also the more bar at the left of lujvo decomposing
16:49 < demize> the more bar? Yes, because that makes sense.
16:49 < demize> I guess /a/ bar is more than none...
19:23  * nuzba @RussellEH: @sarefo The only source for gismu etymology I can find from the corpus is in lojban script, but wiktionary has them in their native scripts [http://bit.ly/1PHHfZ4]
19:24 < palomer> is there a list of lojban words with their definitions?
19:29 < ldlework> palomer: you mean, like a dictionary? :P
19:31 < palomer> :P
19:32 < palomer> I want to see if there’s any material I can use to make a quiz game
20:59 < zipcpi> be'e
20:59 < durka42> re'i
20:59 < zipcpi> coi
21:00 < durka42> coi
21:00 < durka42> ei mi baza sipnybi
21:01 < zipcpi> je'e
21:04 < durka42> do mo
21:05 < zipcpi> puzi dormidju citka
21:08 < zipcpi> ca pensi tu'a se stidi pe la'o uitki http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Recursive_Predicate_for_Building_Chains uitki
21:08 < durka42> ue
21:08 < durka42> ue bu'onai ba'anai do meljo
21:09 < zipcpi> je'u
21:09 < durka42> ie banli ke selbri sidbo
21:10 < zipcpi> mi stidi tu'a zo refkusi
21:11 < durka42> cumki
21:12 < zipcpi> noi krasi zo'oi recursio noi latmo joi zo krefu
21:13 < durka42> ie
21:14 < durka42> ku'i lo smuni na mutce co srana lo si'o cmacnrekursi
21:16 < zipcpi> glibau velcki fa zoi gy "x1 is related to x2 by applying x3 (number) levels-of-recursion of the predicate-relation x4 (ka with two ce'u)" gy
21:19 < zipcpi> ienai uanai ki'u ma na srana
21:21 < durka42> ua je'a srana fa lo te .ivla be li vo .i .au mi za'ure'u tcidu
21:22 < durka42> ni'o co'o mi'e tatpi
21:22 < zipcpi> je'e co'o di'ai
21:24  * nuzba @sarefo: @RussellEH  I think last link here http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lojban_Etymology but it's dead now :( anyway, the info should be in wiktionary now. [http://bit.ly/1KLTK4q]
21:26  * nuzba @sarefo: @RussellEH the original file had no native scripts for Arabic. example: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bakni#Lojban [http://bit.ly/1G8cCvj]
21:33 < zahlman> coi la zipcpi .i zo'o xu do co'e la linuks
21:44 < zipcpi> coi
21:44 < zipcpi> fu'aunai zo'o na go'i
21:57 < palomer> what is gimste and mahoste?
22:00 < palomer> ah, gismu list
22:01 < palomer> and cmavo list
22:03 < zipcpi> je'u
22:18 < zipcpi> ca xagmau tezu'e lo nu jbobau tadni .i la'anai pu ka'e jbobau pilno bu'u po'o lo jbomriste
22:21 < zipcpi> sepi'o lo irci cu xagmau crenzu'e
22:22 < zipcpi> oi zo'oi crenzu'e cu valslinku'i
22:25 < ldlework> is "la raiian" a valid cmene?
22:25 < zipcpi> (I kinda wonder what to do about all those old fu'ivla that no longer conform to the CGV ban. Do we convert them all to CVGV?
22:25 < zipcpi> la raian
22:25 < zipcpi> exp: la raian
22:25 < mensi> ([la raian KU] VAU)
22:25 < zipcpi> exp: la raiian
22:26 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "r" found.
22:26 < ldlework> exp: la raiian ku
22:26 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "r" found.
22:26 < ldlework> no idea what that means
22:26 < ldlework> camxes: la raiian ku
22:26 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "r" found.
22:28 < zipcpi> Well, I think it's got to do with the phonotactic rules. Vowels i and u become semivowels /j/ and /w/ at the start of a diphthong
22:28 < ldlework> exp: la raijan ku
22:28 < mensi> ([la raijan ku] VAU)
22:28 < ldlework> that's not bad
22:28 < zipcpi> no, not lojban j
22:28 < zipcpi> IPA j
22:29 < ldlework> what?
22:29 < zipcpi> Lojban j is IPA /ʒ/
22:29 < ldlework> I know that
22:29 < zipcpi> IPA /j/ is like English y
22:29 < zipcpi> Ah
22:29 < ldlework> it still produces a kind of "ryan" sound
22:29 < zipcpi> Well if you don't mind the name coming out as "rye-zhan"
22:30 < ldlework> that's exactly how I hear it
22:30 < ldlework> can you get closer to ryan?
22:30 < zipcpi> raian
22:30 < zipcpi> That is allowed
22:30 < ldlework> exp: la raian ku
22:30 < mensi> ([la raian ku] VAU)
22:30 < ldlework> thanks zipcpi
22:30 < zipcpi> i here is interpreted as a semi-vowel, so you don't need another i
22:30 < ldlework> nice
22:32 < zipcpi> Anyway yeah wondering if that should be how we update all the old zi'evla. E.g. crenzue -> crenzuue
22:33 < zipcpi> crenzūŭe
22:34 < zipcpi> crenzū,ŭe
22:34 < zipcpi> la .rā,ĭan.
22:41 < zipcpi> exp crenzue
22:41 < zipcpi> exp: crenzue
22:41 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "c" found.
22:42 < zipcpi> exp: crenzuue
22:42 < mensi> (CU [crenzuue VAU])
22:45 < gleki> en:crenzu'e
22:45 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: Oh yeah... forgot about that. Must've been a brain-fart.... though the web version does
22:45 < mensi> lack the "alta" version though that marks the place structure | 2015-05-13T19:49:09.
22:45 < mensi> 849Z
22:45 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: Nevermind, durka gave me the link to that | 2015-05-13T19:51:21.
22:45 < mensi> 003Z
22:45 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
22:45 < zipcpi> crenzu'e is a slinku'i
22:45 < zipcpi> Wait is it?
22:45 < gleki> zipcpi: Naxle has "alta" flag
22:45 < zipcpi> Yeah I've been told about naxle
22:45 < gleki> k: crenzu'e
22:45 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "c" found.
22:45 < zipcpi> Yeah...
22:45 < gleki> yes, it's not a word
22:46 < zipcpi> In fact it is the exact same form as a slinku'i
22:46 < zipcpi> *as "slinku'i"
22:48 < zipcpi> There are two "bad words" when it comes to Lojban morphology. "tosmabru" is a bad lujvo form that breakes into cmavo + lujvo "to smabru", and must be corrected like "tosymabru"
22:49 < zipcpi> The other is "slinku'i"; a bad zi'evla that becomes a lujvo when certain cmavo are added to it, like pa slinku'i -> pas/lin/ku'i
22:52 < zipcpi> Of course, since they are bad forms, the Lojban words for them are the stage-3.5 fu'ivla "valrtosmabru" and "valslinku'i"
22:53 < gleki> k:valstosmabru
22:53 < mensi> (CU [L:valstosmabru VAU])
22:53 < gleki> en:valstosmabru
22:53 < mensi> [< valsi stodi smaji burcu ≈ Word constant quiet brush] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se
22:53 < mensi> tolcri
22:53 < mensi> vlastosmabru[11716], valstosmabru[11736], vlastosmaburcu[13775], valstosmaburcu[13795], vlastodysmabru[13846], ...
22:53 < gleki> word constant quiet brush
22:53 < zipcpi> u'i
22:54 < gleki> sounds like a gematry tool
22:56 < zipcpi> By the way do I have to remove the little joke I embedded in this definition http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/refkusi
22:56 < zipcpi> I just couldn't help it X3
22:56 < zipcpi> XD
22:57 < gleki> i cant see any jokes
22:57 < zipcpi> Cf refkusi
22:58 < zipcpi> At the very end
22:58 < gleki> ah, this.
22:58 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sepulka/en
22:59 < zipcpi> Well yes I know reference-loops are unhelpful, but I did give a good (pe'i) definition
23:00 < zipcpi> It's just a classic mathematician's/programmer's joke
23:00 < gleki> i just mean that wiki page also has a recursion
23:00 < gleki> well, a loop.
23:00 < zipcpi> Ah
23:02 < zipcpi> Even Google does it
23:02 < zipcpi> If you search for recursion you get "Did you mean: recursion"
23:04 < zipcpi> refkusi fo lo ka refkusi fo lo ka refkusi fo lo ka refkusi fo lo ka refkusi i'au zo'o
23:04 < gleki> spheif you added {crenzuue} could you please add other definitions copied from the old word so that we can later remove this old word?
23:04 < zipcpi> You mean the other languages
23:04 < zipcpi> vi'o
23:05 < gleki> yes, and whenever you do that another time pls copy them all
23:08 < zipcpi> ... got an error when I tried to copy the russion
23:08 < gleki> oh yes. indeed
23:08 < gleki> a known bug
23:08 < gleki> then sorry
23:14 < b_jonas> gleki: I tried to change most of the links to webchat in page texts on the mediawiki
23:17 < zipcpi> refkusi fi li ci'i
23:18 < zipcpi> aizo'o gau mi daspo fa ro lo do skami
23:19 < zipcpi> Wait... no daspo doesn't need the ergative case
23:20 < zipcpi> aizo'o mi daspo ro lo do skami le'ai
23:20 < gleki> b_jonas: isnt immediately visible
23:21 < gleki> but fine probably
23:21 < gleki> it's important to stop hardcoding whenever possible
23:22 < b_jonas> gleki: yeah, you may have to purge the cache on some pages, but whatever
23:22 < gleki> E.g. making Lojban example words in bold by wrapping with ''' ... ''' is actually a bad practice. A template like {{vlapoi}} should be used
23:27 < zipcpi> http://bighugelabs.com/output/lolcat10e2b07ee17acb5e4e4bdad69db0c19c7b59a107.jpg
23:47 < roz> da .a'o dai fiksmokca
23:53 < zipcpi> zo fiksmokca ki'a
23:58 < roz> za'e zei valsi lo ka me'oi fixpoint
--- Day changed Thu May 14 2015
00:07 < zipcpi> u'i
00:13 < zipcpi> ei mi'ai cnomaukla
00:29 < gleki> ah, finally sutsis doesnt split {vi'e zei saske} into vitke+saske
00:30 < gleki> and i replaced jvokatna tool in sutsis with my own from livla
01:22 < niek> coi ro do
01:26 < gleki> coi
01:30 < niek> coi la gleki
01:30 < niek> do mo
01:40 < niek> mi ba bregau lo cersai
01:40 < gleki> mi ca cikre la sutsis
01:41 < niek> la sutsis cu mo
01:42 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/coi
01:44 < niek> ua cinri
01:47 < zipcpi> Can someone check the Lojban definition for me http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/refkusi? Thanks in advance (= ki'e... something?)
01:47 < zipcpi> It's taken from http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Recursive_Predicate_for_Building_Chains
01:48 < zipcpi> It's erm, pretty crazy stuff. I'm not sure I understand it fully. I guess that's how programming languages would look like if they were fully in Lojban
01:49 < zipcpi> Probably needs more punctuation
01:49 < gleki> probably you should ask tasni
01:49 < gleki> si tsani
01:49 < zipcpi> je'e
01:54 < gleki> you may find his original post in the mriste or start a new thread.
01:55 < gleki> supporting old browsers is not fun
01:55 < zipcpi> Wait what mriste? Google groups?
01:56 < zipcpi> Or is that old mriste still working?
02:01 < gleki> gogole groups
02:08 < zipcpi> Ah... I think it's meant to define a recursive loop with an end condition
02:09 < zipcpi> ua a'u
02:10 < zipcpi> Still a little confused though
02:11 < zipcpi> So yeah, if a computer was fed this definition of refkusi as well as an expression with lo refkusi be fi li ci'i, it will get stuck :p
02:18 < gocti> ta'o doi la zipcpi lo ni do .entuzi tu'a lo jbobau zo'u .u'e sai
02:18 < gocti> .i mi pu lifri no dunli
02:18 < zipcpi> coi gocti
02:18 < gocti> coi seftynisku
02:18 < zipcpi> u'i
02:21 < zipcpi> ei mi cliva .i lo fonxa pe mi cu milxe spofu .i ei mi cikre
02:21 < zipcpi> co'o
02:21 < gocti> co'o cikre
03:30 < lablanu> What's the word for "play a musical instrument"?
03:31 < Ilmen> en: zgipli
03:31 < mensi> zgipli [< zgike pilno ≈ Music use] = x1=p1 plays x3=z1 on x2=p2 |>>> see also zgitci, zgica'a |>>>
03:31 < mensi> phma
03:31 < lablanu> Any other brivla?
03:32 < Ilmen> Well you can simply use "pilno" too
03:32 < Ilmen> {mi pilno lo pipno}
03:33 < Ilmen> note that zgipli-x2 is the instrument
03:33 < lablanu> Hmm, {zgifi'i} is "compose". I guess it's just a feature of Lojban.
03:33 < Ilmen> (beware of the order in which the sumti appear in the definition)
03:33 < Ilmen> What is a feature of Lojban?
03:34 < lablanu> A distinction that sets it apart from other languages.
03:34 < Ilmen> Which distinction?
03:34 < lablanu> That "play an instrument" is "music-use"
03:35 < Ilmen> In Spanish, to play (an instrument) is "tocar" (= touch)
03:35 < lablanu> Yup
03:35 < Ilmen> in Japanese, it's "hiku" (~= to draw)
03:35 < lablanu> Whoa
03:35 < lablanu> What about {zgigau}?
03:36 < Ilmen> So every Language has it's own way of expressing this
03:36 < Ilmen> And "to play" an instrument is in itself a pretty weirdish metaphor
03:36 < lablanu> I agree.
03:37 < Ilmen> In French we use the same metaphor as English: "jouer d'un instrument"
03:37 < lablanu> {zgipli} is less weird than "play" or "draw", pe'i
03:37 < Ilmen> ie
03:37 < lablanu> But what could {zgigau} mean?
03:38 < Ilmen> make something be a music
03:38 < lablanu> So x1 could be a musician, a producer, etc?
03:38 < Ilmen> "zgipra" could be "x1 produces music x2"
03:38 < Ilmen> pe'i {zgipra} is more appropriate than {zgigau}
03:39 < lablanu> Yes.
03:39 < lablanu> But would both composing and playing music fall under {zgipra}?
03:39 < Ilmen> {mi zgigau do lo melbi} = "I make you being a beautiful music" .u'i
03:40 < Ilmen> Depends; I'd expect zgipra to be to produce a musical sound
03:40 < Ilmen> but I'm unsure
03:40 < Ilmen> The one who'll define {zgipra} will decide
03:42 < Ilmen> en cupra
03:42 < Ilmen> en: cupra
03:42 < mensi> cupra = x1 produces x2 [product] by process x3. |>>> See also zbasu, farvi, gundi, jukpa. |>>>
03:42 < mensi> officialdata
03:43 < lablanu> Would you be so awesome as to be the one that defines {zgipra}?
03:43 < Ilmen> jbo: cupra
03:43 < mensi> cupra = x1 gasnu ja se jalge lo nu x2 zasti |>>> gasnu; jalge; zasti; zbasu; jbena; jukpa; gundi |>>>
03:43 < mensi> xorxes
03:43 < Ilmen> ue ru'e
03:44 < lablanu> Makes sense
03:45 < Ilmen> Also, zgike has a x2
03:45 < Ilmen> en: zgike
03:45 < mensi> zgike = x1 is music performed/produced by x2 (event). |>>> x2 event may be person playing instrument, singing, musical
03:45 < mensi> source operating/vibrating, etc.; instrument (= zgica'a); play an instrument (= zgica'apli, zgiterca'a, selzgigau,
03:45 < mensi> selzgizu'e); song (= sagzgi, selsa'a); voice, as used musically (= zgivo'a); composed music (= finzgi).  See also damri,
03:45 < mensi> dansu, flani, janbe, jgita, pipno, rilti, tabra, tonga, xagri, siclu. |>>> officialdata
03:45 < Ilmen> so "selzgi" / "se zgike" may also be of interest
03:47 < Ilmen> I'm not really sure what would be the difference between selzgi and zgipra
03:48 < Ilmen> apart from that zgipra is maybe a wee bit easier to pronounce
04:36 < b_jonas> i vondei coi
04:41 < gocti> ca'o jai macnu fai lo nu gentufa lo javni pe la .ilmentufa lu lo ratcu cu citka lo cirla li'u
04:41 < gocti> .i snosnosnosnosnosno
04:42 < gocti> .i pu za lo cacra cu cfari .i za'o na mo'u gentufa fi lu lo ratcu li'u
04:42 < Ilmen> coi gentufa
04:43 < gocti> coi gentufa jatna
04:43 < Ilmen> .u'i
04:43 < gleki> nabmi fa ma
04:43 < gleki> i xu tu'ala vrici
04:43 < gocti> no da nabmi
04:43 < gocti> .i mi gentufa se pi'o lo besna .i je lo gerna cu plu'u'u'u'uja
04:44 < Ilmen> ĭe pluja
04:45 < gocti> lo ca se zvati be mi zo'u text/text_1/paragraphs/paragraph/fragment/!term/term_1/tag_term/sumti/sumti_1/sumti_2/sumti_3/sumti_4/sumti_5/quantifier/!sumti_6/              sumti_tail/sumti_6?/!selbri/selbri_1/selbri_2/selbri_3/selbri_4+/selbri_5/selbri_6/tanru_unit/tanru_unit_1/tanru_unit_2/free*
04:45 < Ilmen> xu do selsau la'e zoi xy http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/glosser/glosser.htm xy
04:45 < gocti> go'i
04:46 < gleki> je'e la gocti
04:47 < Ilmen> mi pu zenba lo ka selsau lo formala gerna kei fau lo nu gunka lo cipra gerna
04:47 < Ilmen> .i ku'i mi za'o toltce lo ka selsau lo vlaturge'a pagbu
04:48 < Ilmen> noi jai nandu simlu
04:48 < gocti> ca lo ca pruce mi tolju'i lo vlaturge'a .i va'o tu'a na ku cu la'a za'o na tcidu zo lo
04:49 < gocti> .i ie lo ka gunka cu rinka lo ka co'a se slabu
04:49 < Ilmen> la'a .u'i
04:50 < Ilmen> xu do me la za'urko ku noi gerna lanli
04:51 < gocti> gocygo'i si go'i
04:54 < gleki> mi aidji lo ka jmina lo me la alta moi tcila la altatufa i a'o sidju mi lo ka jimpe lo vlaturge'a
04:55 < gocti> ba'a sidju .i je ba'a bilga lo ka so'i roi jai gau refcfa kei soi jai nandu fai lo ka rivbi
04:56 < gocti> .i lo zo brodybi javni zo'u versiio ji'i vo moi
05:01 < gleki> u'i la altatufa ca na gentufa co me la alta
05:02 < gocti> alta: xu jaa go'i
05:02 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "j" found.
05:04 < gleki> pu na prane i mi vimcu
06:42 < gleki|64672> mi ge'enmo tu'a lo selfu skami pe CGM
07:29 < durka42> coi
07:30 < durka42> yesterday I said {ko'a slilu fi lo jei ce'u broda}. is this a cromulent construction, pei?
07:59 < gleki> why jei?
07:59 < b_jonas> durka42: hmm, dunno
07:59 < gleki> jb:slilu
07:59 < mensi> slilu = slilu — x1(entity)  oscillates with period  x2(entity)  through states  x3(clause)
07:59 < mensi> :lo slilu — oscillating. lo se slilu — period of oscillation.
07:59 < mensi> :lo gerku pu jersi lo jatna fau lo ka jai gau slilu lo rebla be vo'a — The dog followed its master, wagging its tail.
07:59 < mensi> :lo bombila pu slilu lo snidu lo ka te gusni lo xunre ce'o lo blanu — A light bulb was flickering every second changing
07:59 < b_jonas> durka42: I'd say {nu} but that's because I don't understand how all these abtractors work and when I should use which one and why there's so many in first place. also, I wonder if {bonxa} is better than {slilu}... why are those even two different words?
07:59 < mensi> from red to blue light.
07:59 < mensi> :lo re nanla pu slilu fi lo ka bajra se ka'a ce'o te ka'a — The two boys were running to and fro.
07:59 < mensi> :Related words: dikni, rilti, morna, desku, janbe, boxna
08:00 < b_jonas> so I can't help in this, sorry
08:00 < durka42> well, {slilu} seems definitely better than {boxna} for the meaning I want
08:00 < durka42> I went for {jei} because I wanted a set of truth values
08:00 < durka42> oscillating through a set of truth values of a predicate
08:00 < gleki> oh oh oh
08:00 < durka42> I guess it wasn't understood :/ :)
08:01 < gleki> hm, still i cant make any sense. why not just su'u?
08:04 <@xalbo> "ko'a switches (at somewhat regular intervals) between broda'ing and not." is roughly how I read that.
08:04 <@xalbo> Was that the intention?
08:04 <@xalbo> "ko'a brodas on and off [at regular intervals]"
08:04 <@xalbo> (or, I guess "off and on")
08:05 < durka42> I guess {ru'i cenba lo du'u xukau broda}
08:05 < durka42> except cenba2 is a ka
08:05 < durka42> ko'a ru'i cenba lo ka xukau ce'u broda
08:06 <@xalbo> I'd say that and the original {slilu} both work.
08:15 < durka42> xalbo: yeah that was the intention
08:21 <@xalbo> sei snada se'u dai
08:21 < durka42> ui
08:42 < lablanu_> Does {xaugau} seem unwieldy?
08:50 < roz> xau gau
08:50 < roz> xagygau or xaurgau
08:50 < roz> is correct
08:50 < roz> are*
08:50 < roz> is*
08:50 < roz> idk
08:55 < durka42> {xagzengau} is pretty common
09:06 < gleki> So I privately mailed to mukti and we agreed that any JVS 2.0 development should be tabled and an API for JVS db should be developed instead.
09:07 < gleki> so that others can use it to build their own interfaces
09:08 < durka42> I like APIs
09:08 < gleki> but I need a better database model.
09:08 < gleki> the current one ruins the whole idea
09:09 < durka42> an API can abstract over the underlying database model
09:10 < durka42> some DB changes are definitely needed though
09:10 < durka42> such as tracking who makes changes
09:11 < durka42> "valsi originally entered by xorxes was changed" is unnacceptable
09:12 < gleki> https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131
09:12 < gleki> this prevents what you just said
09:14 < durka42> yes at the cost of forbidding any editing…
09:15 < gleki> that doesnt differ too much from having a history
09:15 < gleki> by using tags you can export what you want
10:12 < Ilmen> "Translations, etymology, selmaho are bound to meanings, not to words."  -- etymology, bound to meaning? Uh
10:13 < Ilmen> The etymology should be bound to the word entry, in my humble opinion.
10:14 < Ilmen> Unless one wants the etymology to contains texts varying according to the natlang
10:35 <@xalbo> I guess it depends on what format the "etymology" takes. I mean, definitely the actual source doesn't vary by language, but how that would be explained might.
10:37 < Ilmen> I find it pretty bad when some language entries have an etymology and not the others
10:37 < Ilmen> and copying the etymo' over every language entry can be bothering
10:37 <@xalbo> Actually, I take it back. The etymology of {xo'e} used as a pre-xolro-{lo} is completely different from the etymology of it as {zo'e ze'ei pa}
10:38 <@xalbo> Really, there's three levels: The word itself, the meaning, and the description of that meaning in a particular language. Etymology is an attribute of the middle tier.
10:38 <@xalbo> (this probably isn't at all how jbovlaste represents things now)
10:39 < durka42> agreed
10:39 < durka42> it's on definitions now
10:39 < durka42> the hierarchy is currently the other way around (language is above meaning)
10:41 <@xalbo> That sounds conceptually wrong to me ju'o ru'e
11:01 < lablanu> I noticed that the JVS GitHub has no README.md
11:02 < skari> Whoa, some files are 10 years old.
11:13 < durka42> lablanu: which repo?
11:13 < durka42> oh you mean lojban/jbovlaste
11:13 < gleki> Yes, etymologies are bound to meanings. {xai1} is from Japanese "hai", xai2 is from nothing probably
11:14 < durka42> je'u
11:14 < gleki> abd in my model etymologies are not bound to natlangs. no need in thta. just one explanation of etymology in Lojban is enough.
11:14 < gleki> *and
11:15 < gleki> if you need an etymological dictionary of Lojban for English speakers use API and use machine translation to translate from Lojban to English. It should be easy.
11:18 <@rlpowell> Random thought: space in Lojban == space in Haskell; ke in Lojban == $ in Haskell (not sure that's quite true, because I'm not sure the precedence of ke and $ match, but it's pretty damned close)
11:21 < durka42> ie
11:21 < gleki> hm, Haskell isnt there http://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/fancu_staile
11:21 < durka42> are you learning Haskell?
11:26 < gleki> Everyone says Haskell is great but e.g. calculating Fibonacci numbers is like 10 times slower on it than on Javascript in Firefox
11:28 < gleki> http://jsfiddle.net/og2xt0nb/
11:30 < durka42> personally I use crappy microbenchmarks for all my language choices, xo'o
11:32 < gleki> They invented something like Haskell for quantum computers. Okay then, give me a quantum computer and I will learn it.
11:33 < gleki> ti'e da finti lo simsa be la xaskel bei do'e lo kantu skami i i'a ko dunda fi mi fe lo kantu skami ije mi cilre
11:33 < gleki> to ei ma'a na oftopi toi
11:37 < gleki> June 6 is the Tatoeba day  Prepare your suggestions fo fixing small things for it.
11:37 < gleki> *for
11:37 < lordmord> mh what do you men with that last sentence. i assume oftopi stands for offtopic. and ei ma'a is  obligatory for all.
11:38 < lordmord> na is the negation but not sure what that whole sentence means.
11:53 < durka42> lordmord: you got all the pieces, there's nothing else missing
11:53 < durka42> "we must not be offtopic"
11:54 < gleki> gloss: ei ma'a na oftopi
11:54 < mensi> Must we with you not oftopi*
11:54 < lordmord> i guess what confused me was that he said something offtopic right before that
11:54 < durka42> well nobody said we have to follow our own rules :p
11:54 < gleki> I indeed said but since this channel must be either about Lojban or in Lojban  I made a translation
11:55 < lordmord> k
11:57 < mudri> rlpowell, I don't think that quite works. It would require tanru units to have infinite types (unless I'm mistaken).
11:58 <@rlpowell> I was talking about the grouping/precedence issues.
11:59 < mudri> Then there's {bo}...
11:59 <@rlpowell> *nod*
12:00 < durka42> there's always {bo} :p
12:02 < lordmord> pe'i se mi cfipu lo nu la gleki pu tavla fi lo oftopi .i xu lo fu fanva cu xamgu
12:04 < mudri> mi spaji tu'a zo oftopi xi pa
12:05 < mudri> lu oftopi zei gasnu li'u .e'u
12:05 < durka42> lordmord: lo nu fanva cu xamgu .i .ei lo se cusku be fo dei cu te gerna gi'a srana vau la .lojban.
12:07 < mudri> xu zo .oftopi vlacku jai se ciksi
12:07 < durka42> ba'a za'e zei valsi
12:08 < durka42> en:oftopi
12:08 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
12:09 < durka42> ja'o te .ivla be li pa bei zo .oftopi cu zifre
12:09 < durka42> sa ja'o lo te .ivla be li pa bei zo .oftopi cu zifre
12:09 < lordmord> durka42: could you give me an english translation of the second sentence.
12:10 < durka42> "The things said in here should be either in or about Lojban."
12:12 < lordmord> ki'e
12:13 < gleki> ie za'e zei valsi gi'e ze'i zei valsi
12:13 < durka42> zasli valni
12:33 < phma> lo barfopi cu oftopi lo nu casnu lo nerfopi
14:17 < mbogonov> Hi everyone
14:18 < durka42> coi mbogonov
14:19 < mbogonov> coi durka42?
14:43 < Ilmen> coi
14:45 < durka42> coi
14:45 < mbogonov> coi
14:49 < Ilmen> co'o ro do .i .ai sipna
14:57 < durka42> rinsa mutce cabdei
16:18 < Zarutian> durka42: coi pa do .i
16:18 < Zarutian> durka42: you greet new day with enthusiasm?
16:40  * nuzba @duck1123: Things my wife makes me do: Look up how to say "Killer Tomato" in Lojban.        for the record: catra tamca [http://bit.ly/1EIOFWT]
20:29 < zipcpi> be'e
20:31 < zipcpi> http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Evolved%20Lojban%20Keyboard ... Lojban dvorak?
20:32 < zipcpi> I am configured for Dvorak btw
20:36 < zipcpi> Refactoring the definition of refkusi has made me think of what a Lojban programming language would be like. It'd probably be considered an "esoteric programming language" to those who don't speak Lojban... but hey, what other programming language can claim to be lossless when spoken aloud? :p
20:40 < zipcpi> coi
21:26 < zipcpi> mensi: doi selpahi If your experimental letterals for the vowels are a'y, e'y, i'y, o'y, and u'y... what is the leterral for Y?
21:26 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.selpahi.gy. di'a cusku da
21:26 < zipcpi> Hm I've not seen selpahi in a while
22:42 < gleki> .seen selpahi
22:42 < phenny> gleki: Sorry, I haven't seen selpahi around.
22:48 < durka42> ti'e vitke lo gugdepu'e zo'o
22:51 < gleki> zo'opei
23:25 < zahlman> en: gugdepu'e
23:26 < mensi> gugdepu'e = x1 is the country with the code ISO-3166 ''PE'' (Peru) for people x2. |>>> See also gugde |>>>
23:26 < mensi> glekizmiku
23:30 < gleki> peru xu i pema sa'e
23:30 < gleki> i ku'i la'a zo ru pe la selpa'i cu frica zo ru pe lo drata
23:31 < gleki> to mi ca tavla fi zo'e peru pe la selpa'i toi
23:32 < Dordly> Hello
23:32 < Dordly> Should I study Lojban?
23:34 < gleki> You should :)
23:35 < Dordly> is it worth it?
23:43 < gleki> Depends on your goals.
23:44 < gleki> this is what i have recently posted to Reddit:
23:44 < gleki> Lojban is quite different from other languages you may encounter. It will make you think of what you say (not just translate words from your language to the language you are learning).
23:44 < gleki> Lojban can be called a bridge between various fields of human experience.
23:44 < gleki> Knowledge representation, programming languages, logic and just natural languages - all those fields that may sounds frustrating and complex for many people can become easier to understand from the viewpoint of Lojban.
23:44 < gleki> So it can be seen as a single tool to look at many things.
23:44 < gleki> The best place to start learning Lojban is http://lojban.org/papri/Learning/en
23:53 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 129 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 126 normal]
--- Day changed Fri May 15 2015
01:06  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: LRT is pretty much the recommended introductory tutorial for Lojban - of course, you should also nosey through the CLL. [http://bit.ly/1A3XChh]
01:11 < gleki> LRT?
01:11 < gleki> Lojban Reference Thing?
01:13 <@Broca> Beats me.
01:14 <@Broca> Never hear of it, and if it's a typo, I can't figure out what for.
01:26 < gocti> L4B boi xu
01:26 < gocti> .i fonxa ke dragau zmiku
01:27 < gleki> ua
01:27 < gleki> i T7 boi xu
01:28 < gocti> pencu .ekra vau ru'a
01:28 < gleki> https://twitter.com/mkmagicannon/status/599125934835281920
01:28 < gleki> .TITLE
01:28 < gleki> .title
01:28 < phenny> gleki: Marisa Kirisame on Twitter: "@GlekiArxokuna Last ReTweet"
01:29 < gocti> ua
01:29 < gleki> and those were Waves
01:30 < gocti> ri'e ru'e
01:30 < gleki> the last remnant of Google Wave
01:31 < gocti> mi co'u morju lo du'u ma kau te frica la boxna la bicysna
01:33 < gleki> en:bicysna
01:33 < mensi> [< bifce sance ≈ Bee sound] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
01:33 < mensi> bicysna[6978], bifcysna[8008], bicysance[9037], bifcysance[10067]
01:33 < gleki> uanai
01:33 < gocti> za'e zei valsi .oi dai
01:34 < gleki> i ua
02:52 < gleki> LIVLABOT: sutsis now shows glosses for multiple words http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/coi%20munje
03:17 < Rodericus> hm…:
03:17 < Rodericus> en: kamsutra
03:17 < mensi> kamsutra [< ka sutra ≈ Being rapid] = k1 is the speed of s1 doing/being/bringing about s2. |>>> Cf. ka, sutra, nilsutra.
03:17 < mensi> |>>> totus
03:30 < zipcpi> be'e
03:32 < gleki> be zei re'i
03:34 < zipcpi> coi gleki
03:35 < zipcpi> Yeah it's kinda too bad that you can't search jbovlaste by selma'o
03:35 < zipcpi> vlasisku does but I don't know how often it updates
03:36 < gleki> use sutsis
03:36 < gleki> automatically it updates every month unless i do that manually
03:36 < zipcpi> I see
03:36 < gleki> or unless you clean appcache yourself
03:37 < gleki> if you clean it then it will update every three days
03:42 < zipcpi> I don't see anyway to search by selma'o in sutsis
03:44 < zipcpi> Oh lol hey the CLL has an pre-dotside error right on page #1... well it's not really an error, but the dot before "lojban." is left out, even though the word before that is "coi", which is *not* one of the banned syllables
03:46 < zipcpi> Hmm... copyright information...
03:47 < zipcpi> Permission is granted to copy and distribute modified versions of this book, provided that the modifications are clearly marked as such....  does that mean the book needs to be marked, or that every little modification must be marked?
03:54 < zipcpi> exp: iiaiiiaion
03:54 < mensi> (CU [iiaiiiaion VAU])
03:54 < zipcpi> This would be difficult for people to read correctly the first time, even though it is unambiguous lol
03:55 < zipcpi> Will either need commas or selpahi's breves
04:05 < gleki> zipcpi: just enter eny selmaho
04:05 < gleki> *any
04:06 < gleki> zipcpi: in pre dotside cmevla didnt need a dot in front
04:08 < zipcpi> They did after any word that wasn't la, lai, or doi
04:08 < zipcpi> That was the entire reason those syllables were banned pre-dotside
04:09 < zipcpi> However, coi was not in that list :p
04:16 < gleki> another way to search for selmaho is mensi
04:19 < zipcpi> I did search for bai. All I got is bai, bapli, lejbai, livbai, mukti, nonbaizu'e, selbai, seva'ai, and tasmi
04:20 < zipcpi> *search for BAI
04:20 < gleki> where?
04:20 < zipcpi> sutsis
04:21 < gleki> did you enter "bai" or "BAI"?
04:21 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/BAI
04:25 < zipcpi> That's not the version of sutsis you sent me earlier
04:26 < zipcpi> Wait... did you send me anything?
04:26 < zipcpi> Perhaps I searched for it myself
04:26 < zipcpi> Anyway, ki'esai
04:29 < gleki> probably i need to rename my fork of sutsis.
04:33 < demize> la gleksis? ;)
04:34 < demize> or geksutsis I guess *shrug*
04:36 < gleki> i probably wont change any names. even the last link contains "ilmentufa" string which is no longer true
04:48 < zipcpi> How's this so far? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Modern_Lojban_Theory_(draft)
04:48 < zipcpi> co'oru'e do ai mi citka
06:12 < zipcpi> na'e fadni fa lo nu mi crebi'o lo glibau poi pamoi bangu mi  .i mi crebi'o tu'a lo se lerfu pu lo nu crebi'o lo zu'e bausku
06:32 < Zyxl> coi
06:32 < Ilmen> coi
06:34 < Ilmen> .i do mo
06:36 < Zyxl> ki'a
06:36 < Ilmen> ma bangu do
06:36 < gleki> ue
06:36 < gleki> i xu na ku lu do mo li'u mutce sampu bridi
06:36 < Zyxl> glico
06:37 < Ilmen> je'e
06:37 < Ilmen> I can speak English, no problem :)
06:37 < Ilmen> "do mo" = you do/is-what?
06:37 < Zyxl> How does that ask what language I speak?
06:38 < Ilmen> So it's quite a broad question
06:38 < Ilmen> "ma bangu do" = what? is-a-language-spoken-by you
06:38 < Zyxl> I figured that out, but had to lookup ma
06:39 < Ilmen> ma = what?/who?
06:39 < Zyxl> I've only learnt really simple stuff and that was a number of months ago.
06:39 < Ilmen> je'e fi'i do
06:39 < Ilmen> (okay, welcome)
06:39 < Zyxl> Yep, got that.
06:40 < Ilmen> In Lojban, "ma" doesn't carry the distionction "who/what" (whether it asks for a person or anything else)
06:40 < Zyxl> je'e
06:41 < Ilmen> the nuance of "who" can be added this way: "ma poi prenu" (= "what, which is a person")
06:41 < Ilmen> so it's totally optional
06:53 < Zyxl> .irc. nonsku .i xu so'erois vi simsa cabna nuncasnu
06:56 < zipcpi> I recommend the Lojban Wave Lessons: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons ; or the crash course: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft) (keep in mind, still a draft)
06:56 < zipcpi> I'm also working on something of my own, but it's a more theoretical document: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Modern_Lojban_Theory_(draft)
06:57 < Ilmen> sa'u mi ca'o zukcfu lo drata
06:57 < Ilmen> .u'u
07:00 < Zyxl> Did that mean, "Just me while others are doing something else"?
07:04 < zipcpi> sa'u means "Simply speaking," and doesn't change the semantic content of the sentence
07:05 < zipcpi> My best translation is "Simply speaking, I am currently busy with something else. Sorry"
07:06 < zipcpi> Wow that's much longer than the Lojban. Lojban typically isn't very brief :p
07:12 < Zyxl> Well, you did add that "sorry" bit yourself.
07:13 < zipcpi> That's roughly what u'u means
07:14 < Zyxl> Oh right, I didn't think you were including that next line.
07:15 < Zyxl> Also, I think I got mixed up with "uu".
07:19 < zipcpi> uu is "pity" - it could mean "Sorry your dog died" for example
07:20 < CyanoIntrant> how's uu pronounced?
07:20 < zipcpi> u'u is "regret", and is one common way of saying "Sorry, my fault". The other way is fau'u
07:20 < zipcpi> uu is pronounced like English woo
07:20 < CyanoIntrant> ty. was wondering if that was one of the digraphs.
07:21 < zipcpi> When i or u start a syllable with a second vowel, they turn into semivowels like English y or w
07:41  * nuzba @Pueymccleary: Srilermorna was an alphabet created for the Lojban language. [http://bit.ly/1ELrxqL]
08:01 < b_jonas> i mi pu zi facki lo du'u fi ma kau fa lo bangu be lo kai'u ce'u xe fanva la'o gi. Aeneis .gi lo bangrmadara fu la'o gi. Lakatos István .gi kei be'o cu cizra .fi lo drata be lo pemci rilti
08:05 < zipcpi> ... crap. Is it because I've been looking at too much Lojban, Google?
08:05 < zipcpi> What kind of language are you giving me now
08:06 < zipcpi> Hungarian?
08:10 < b_jonas> i cizra fi lo nu lo gerna cu rirci .i lo pemci cu cmima so'u gadri .e so'e me la .adverb. me zo fi'o terbri noi se cmene lo pa valsi ju'o lo za'u valsi
08:10 < zipcpi> "I just found out why the language... translated Aeneis from Madara by Lakatos Istvan...(?) is strange. It has a different meter
08:11 < zipcpi> a'isai I had such a hard time parsing that sentence... all that nesting and complicated place structure
08:11 < b_jonas> zipcpi: I'm not sure if that's what I said, but that's definitely not what I tried to say
08:12 < zipcpi> I think you had wrong place structure at  lo bangu be lo kai'u ce'u
08:12 < zipcpi> lo se bangu is someone who speaks the language
08:13 < zipcpi> So lo kai'u ce'u etc. would fill that place
08:13 < zipcpi> Also fanva's place structure always has me confused
08:14 < zipcpi> So I might have got that wrong
08:16 < zipcpi> Yeah lo kai'u ce'u xe fanva essentially = lo xe fanva ... which is a translation result
08:16 < zipcpi> Well I guess that could be a se bangu
08:18 < zipcpi> lo pemci cu cmima so'u gadri = The poem is part of a set of linguistic articles?
08:20 < durka42> that was supposed to be selcmi maybe?
08:20 < durka42> coi
08:20 < zipcpi> coi
08:20 < b_jonas> durka42: yeah, that's clearly wrong
08:21 < b_jonas> sa i lo pemci cu ba'e se. cmima so'u gadri .e so'e me la .adverb. me zo fi'o terbri noi se cmene lo pa valsi ju'o lo za'u valsi
08:21 < Ilmen> .e'u zo .adverbi .a zo .adverbivla
08:22 < zipcpi> "People called Romanes, they go to the house?" zo'o
08:25 < b_jonas> zipcpi: learning crazy latin conjugation is not a requirement to be able to speak lojban, for it's a more regular language
08:26 < zipcpi> I know
08:26 < zipcpi> I'm just saying I feel like that soldier :p
08:30 < b_jonas> Yeah, it certainly contrasts the grammar of that poem. There's very few deep nestings in it, everything is broken up to multiple sentences instead. Maybe I should try to learn that style a bit.
08:32 < b_jonas> (At least in average. There's a few crazy sentences too.)
08:33 < zipcpi> Yeah, I know back then when I learned Lojban I also treated it as something to be fed to jbofi'e to make sure everything is in the right place, even if the result is a horrible mess with nested abstractions and complicated place structure.
08:34 < zipcpi> But that isn't really the way to communicate :p
08:34 < zipcpi> And now we don't quite have a replacement for jbofi'e
08:35 < b_jonas> Yes, I know, but are these particular sentences really so bad? I think I've said worse ones.
08:35 < zipcpi> Well back then though the only real place to use Lojban was the mriste, and that isn't very effective for picking up conversational skill
08:35 < zipcpi> Well, let's see:
08:35 < zipcpi> lo du'u fi ma kau fa lo bangu be lo kai'u ce'u xe fanva la'o gi. Aeneis .gi lo bangrmadara fu la'o gi. Lakatos István .gi kei be'o cu cizra
08:36 < zipcpi> All that time I was thinking "where's the bridi?"
08:36 < zipcpi> And it's right at the end, after all the fis and fas
08:40 < zipcpi> Lojban has flexible word ordering; it's best to use it to push all the nested abstractions toward the end
08:43 < zipcpi> So you don't have to suddenly close them with kei and continue a bridi from earlier
08:45 < b_jonas> I'm not sure. I mean, it's one of those common long descriptions like {fanva} or {cukta} with three or more arguments, each simple. It's not some crazy complex deeply nested question abstraction. I don't see why I'd have to push it back.
08:45 < durka42> offtopic: are there any Germans here?
08:46 < zipcpi> I know selpahi is German... but I don't know of any more
08:46 < Zyxl> I don't think jbofi'e works with experimental words, does it?
08:47 < durka42> it does not
08:47 < durka42> zipcpi: yeah
08:47 < Ilmen> durka42: People living in Germany or German speakers?
08:47 < durka42> well I'm trying to figure out happened on the other end of a wire transfer
08:47 < durka42> so… I'm trying to read a bank statement in a language I don't speak
08:47 < durka42> two levels of indirection .u'i
08:47 < zipcpi> b_jonas: I'm talking about cizra. You say fi ma kau fa lo bangu be xxxxxxxxxxxx kei be'o cu cizra
08:47 < durka42> I want to know what URSPBTR stands for
08:48 < zipcpi> So then we know makau is in x3, a language is in x1.... but we don't know x3 and x1 of what until right at the end
08:48 < durka42> {cu} can cover for all of those terminators :p
08:48 < Ilmen> durka42: cirko, vahn, selpahi and certainly some other do speak German
08:48 < Ilmen> For Cirko I'm not 100% sure, but I intuit they do
08:48 < b_jonas> zipcpi: maybe...
08:49 < zipcpi> It's the sort of thing that computers are good at, but humans not so much
08:50 < Ilmen> For closing a deeply nested abstraction in forethought, you have the "gu....gi nei" trick
08:50 < durka42> I haven't seen that used in the wild really, Ilmen :)
08:51 < durka42> you have to do some popularizing
08:51 < Ilmen> {mi cpedu gu lo ka do jungau fi lo du'u xu kau cumki fa lo nu carvi gi nei fi do}
08:51 < Ilmen> %)
08:51 < durka42> uhh
08:51 < durka42> that can't be right
08:51 < durka42> lo ka… is a sumti but nei is a selbri
08:51 < Ilmen> oh, right
08:51 < Ilmen> gu zo'e
08:51 < Ilmen> *gi zo'e
08:51 < Ilmen> then
08:52 < durka42> ah
08:52 < durka42> ie
08:52 < Ilmen> exp: mi cpedu gu lo ka do jungau fi lo du'u xu kau cumki fa lo nu carvi gi da fi do}
08:52 < mensi> (mi [CU {cpedu <gu (¹lo [ka {do <CU (²jungau [fi {lo <(³du'u [xu kau]³) (³CU [cumki {fa <lo (⁴nu [CU {carvi VAU}] KEI⁴) KU>} VAU]³) KEI> KU}] VAU²)>} KEI] KU¹) gi da> <fi do>} VAU])
08:53 < Ilmen> Basically this gu is like "I'm going to utter a very long nested bridi which will be closed when I'll say "gi""
08:53 < Ilmen> The drawback is that it's forethough
08:53 < Ilmen> So you need to plan your sentence's structure in advance
08:54 < b_jonas> Ilmen: is {gu...gi} really a better delimiter than the way I specifically added all three of {kei be'o cu} when either one would work and when I've taken care that the {be'o} has an obvious pair because I used {be} only once in the sentence?
08:54 < b_jonas> I feel you're being a bit unfair to me
08:54 < durka42> unfair?
08:54 < durka42> proposing alternative grammar structures is just what lojbanists do :p
08:54 < Ilmen> b_jonas: Sorry, I haven't seen the beginning of this discussion
08:54 < durka42> "that sentence was great, I have no suggestions" said nobody in #lojban ever
08:55 < zipcpi> u'i
08:55 < Ilmen> so if my reply was irrelevant, please feel free to disregard it
08:56 < Ilmen> .ei mi zukte lo drata .i co'o di'ai
08:56 < zipcpi> co'o di'ai
08:57 < durka42> co'o florida
08:58 < zipcpi> b_jonas: Well, perhaps it'd be more constructive to tell me what you wanted to say, and then we can see how I'd personally render it
08:58 < b_jonas> anyway, I _did_ plan. that's why there's three delimiters for what's not even nested more than two level deep, it's only one long bibliographic reference made long by names, and exactly one {be}. I did try to say {nu bangu} instead of {bangu} but I threw it away because that _would_ cause a deeply nested sentence. And I deliberately said just {la'o gi. Aeneis .gi} instead of some more specific {la'o gi. Aeneis .gi poi cukta fi la virgili'us}.
08:59 < b_jonas> zipcpi: now if you say that you don't like the way I used the text for the {fe}-argument of {bangu}, I can understand that critique. Maybe that's not semantically clear.
08:59 < b_jonas> (Damn, I can't help but feel that maybe selpahi is right.)
08:59 < zipcpi> Right about what?
09:00 < zipcpi> If it's about the "Lojban community" or something, it's not about me. I've not been here for a long time
09:00 < gleki> Wuzzy is German. iesk too
09:01 < b_jonas> zipcpi: well, partly right. he complained that no matter what simple lojbanic sentences he said in chat, he gets blamed that he uses complicated language that beginners don't understand, but if he said much more complicated sentences in English, he isn't blamed.
09:01 < b_jonas> zipcpi: um, I think you've been here for more than a week now. or something.
09:01 < gleki> Unfortunately all newcomers here will always say "Your language is hard to grasp"
09:02 < gleki> ta'o can anyone finally update vlatai tool to the new morphology?
09:02 < Zyxl> If it's not, then it isn't another language.
09:02 < b_jonas> ok let me clam down
09:02 < zipcpi> Yes, but I took a long hiatus
09:02 < zipcpi> And I'm still learning lots of things as well... much has changed since I was gone
09:03 < gleki> Even I can't understand {kai'u} on the fly.
09:04 < Zyxl> I can't even understand it after looking it up.
09:05 < gleki> Many many example need to be added to Tatoeba.org to passively understand it
09:05 < zipcpi> Yeah some of these new cmavo are confusing. Doesn't help that they don't have any documentation comparable to the CLL
09:05 < gleki> *examples
09:05 < zipcpi> Not that the CLL is the easiest thing to understand even
09:05 < b_jonas> ok sorry, I'm wrong above
09:05 < gleki> From Facebook: What would be nice is to have a listApply : List (a → a) → a → a where listApply = foldr (∘) id, then have the repeated application {broda} as a special case (using replicate : ℕ → a → List a).
09:06 < b_jonas> the {cu} is necessary, or else I'd need {be'o ku} or {kei ku ku}
09:07 < b_jonas> gleki: would a triple-{be} nested in the {be} make that clearer? no, I guess you mean I should have brought the translation noun out into a separate clause or prenex in front of the whole thing.
09:07 < b_jonas> I guess that kind of put topic in front is what I should learn.
09:08 < gleki> b_jonas: personally I am lost. What was the intended English translation?
09:08 < durka42> gleki: there's a vlatai.py that uses camxes
09:09 < gleki> durka42: you know, there is a small function in vlatai adaptation for perl that doesnt use any camxes or any other parser. it just splits lujvo from its own rules
09:09 < b_jonas> gleki: translation is "I recently figured out what makes the language of Lakatos István's Hungarian translation of the Aeneid so strange, apart from the rhythm."
09:09 < gleki> durka42: I manually rewrote it to js and now mensi and sutsis use it
09:10 < zipcpi> Ah yeah... that's kinda the usual problem of attempting too literal a translation
09:11 <@xalbo> b_jonas: I think the problem is that "language" in English is polysemous, and the meaning you're using is not the meaning of {bangu}.
09:11 < zipcpi> Oh yes that too
09:11 < durka42> gleki: it'd be much better to use camxes.js since it's the authority on how to split lujvo, but you can probably do 15 sutsis lookups by the time it parses one lujvo, .oi .u'i
09:11 < b_jonas> xalbo: yes, that was zipcpi's problem too, and I can understand that critique
09:12 < selpahi> durka42: I think  URSPBTR means "original value/price/amount" depending on the context.
09:12 < mensi> selpahi: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: If your experimental letterals for the vowels are a'y, e'y, i'y, o'y, and u'y... what
09:12 < mensi> is the leterral for Y? | 2015-05-15T04:26:15.695Z
09:12 < b_jonas> but I'm not sure what you'd do instead of put the text in the {fe}-argument
09:12 < durka42> selpahi: that makes sense ki'e
09:13 < zipcpi> I'd probably translate language as "word choice" or something
09:13 <@xalbo> bangu2 is a person who speaks the language. bangu3 is often used as the text itself (the notes disagree with that pretty flatly, but that's how it gets used anyway).
09:14 < zipcpi> valsi se cuxna
09:14 < b_jonas> ok wait, I don't really agree with that, because look at the definition in the original gismu list:
09:14 < valsi> 198 results: cuxna, besto, jai'a, cmavrse, selterselxeliumadbro, barja, barna, ckape, cnino, cpana…
09:14 <@xalbo> But yes, I'd agree that {bangu} is just wrong, and something meaning "word choice" is a lot closer. This is one of the cases, actually, where I'd be tempted to drop it entirely, and just say that it's the translation itself that is strange.
09:14 < b_jonas> bangu (-ban-, -bau-) : x1 is a/the language/dialect used by x2 to express/communicate x3 (si'o/du'u, not quote) * [also tongue]; (cf. tance, cusku, ve tavla, valsi, gerna, jufra, natmi, slaka) [1b].
09:15 < b_jonas> why the heck is using {la bangu} as in "language/dialect" wrong here? I can understand why putting the text to the {fi}-argument is wrong, but I think the first place is right here.
09:16 < selpahi> cinri (to xu cinri toi) fa lo nu tu'a pa lojbo jufra cu lidne tu'a noi nu casnu lo pa lojbo jufra ku'o ji'i panono glico jufra ... :P
09:16 < zipcpi> Because bangu is meant to be things like English, Hungarian, Cantonese
09:16 <@xalbo> The language of his Hungarian translation is Hungarian, is it not?
09:16 < zipcpi> Not the choice of words or the tone of a text
09:16 < gleki> b_jonas: ei mi troci i lu mi pu zi facki lo du'u makau poi tcila lo te traduki be la'e la a'eneid bei la lakatos istvan gi'enai rilti cu cizra
09:16 < zipcpi> You won't call "bad language" "mabla bangu" for example
09:17 < gleki> durka42: embed the whole camxes.js into sutsis?
09:17 < gleki> I think {bangu} can be used here.
09:17 < b_jonas> hehe
09:18  * xalbo rages about {traduki}, but approves otherwise.
09:18 < gleki> {bangu} covers dialects. For true languages there is something experimental
09:18 < gleki> en: lingo
09:18 < mensi> 5 da se tolcri: bolrbolingo, lingote, utlinani, bakyjba, bantuluxe
09:18 < gleki> en: ling
09:18 < mensi> 266 da se tolcri: bolrbolingo, linga, linga'axa'i, lingote, lingua, spardo'elingeria, banbupulu, banbutumu, bandu'ilu,
09:18 < mensi> bandurulu, bangilu'e, banginu'a, bangonubu, banjikske, bankuguxe, bankujebu, bankukugu, bankuluru, bankumudu, bankumuku,
09:18 < mensi> bankumulu, bankunubu, bankusucu, banlufunu, banlu'i'i, banlu'inu, banmenske, banpumulu, banru'abu, banskepre, bansutulu,
09:18 < mensi> bantulu'i, bantuluju, banveluje, bauske, ciftricu, cifydatka, dujyku'a, estorni, fomvanju, garna, gaxmolgle, gugdecucu,
09:18 < mensi> jo'a, jupypexyboi, na'i, nuncatra, omnomo, punli, rerce'a, rikybauske, ritru'u, rupnuguxu, ru'urku'esu, ru'ursu'osu,
09:18 < mensi> ru'urtuzusu, sebai, seji'o, selclu, seldacru, sigyple, sigyplebo'o, skubancu, sparkrokosmia, teji'o, toi'e, toi'o, tunba,
09:18 < mensi> utlinani, vlakemlerpoi, xanle'ule'u, aigne, bakyjba, balku'a, bancocysle, bantuluxe, banvoksle, baukle, bausmu, besto, ..
09:18 < mensi> .
09:18 < b_jonas> "la a'eneid" looks totally wrong, because it's an eye transliteration (as opposed to pronunciation-based) of an English word
09:18 < gleki> en:linga
09:18 < mensi> linga = x1 is the ISO-named language of people x2 with ISO-name x1, according to rule/specification
09:18 < mensi> x3
09:19 < gleki> here it is
09:19 < gleki> one more kurtyvla
09:20 < zipcpi> b_jonas: Actually it's Latin, which is actually quite close to Lojban pronunciation
09:21 < zipcpi> Attempting to transliterate the English pronunciation would both obfuscate it via non-transparent spelling, and make it inaccessible to non-English speakers
09:21 < gleki> mi pu zi facki lo du'u lo bangu be la itsvan bei tu'a la a'eneis cu jai cizra fai makau enai lo se rilti
09:23 < selpahi> lo'u pe nai le'u .e'u ru'e
09:23 < b_jonas> gleki: yes, the {poi tcila zo'e li'o gi'e nai rilti} thing might work, though you've omitted the {fi to se ka'a bau toi lo bangrmadaru} information part
09:23 < zipcpi> Indeed I don't even know how Aeneid is pronounced in English even though it is my first language
09:23 < zipcpi> la inid ?!
09:24 < selpahi> .i zo'o re mai ko ze'u sai glibau casnu lo jbojufra poi mi cusku ke'a pu za lo mentu be li ji'i mu
09:24 < durka42> la .iniied. xu
09:25 < gleki> inuit zo'o
09:25 < zipcpi> Well the Latin pronunciation is closer to la aineid pe'iru'e
09:25 < gleki> http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneis
09:25 < zipcpi> la .aineis.
09:26 < gleki> ti'e "ae" is "e" although who knows who they really pronounced it.
09:26 < b_jonas> meh, if you insist on transliterating every foreign name, even at its first mention, rather than saying the original, then the readers will have to guess
09:26 < b_jonas> but whatever
09:26 < zipcpi> I actually agree... best not to overuse transliteration
09:26 < Ilmen> IIRC "ae" is [ei]
09:27 < gleki> mi pu zi facki lo du'u lo banxe'unu be la itsvan bei tu'a la a'eneis cu jai cizra fai makau enai lo se rilti
09:27 < gleki> dont tell me banxe'unu3 doesnt exist
09:27 < ldlework> aether ay thur
09:27 < selpahi> mi pilno zoi gy. [ai] .gy
09:27 < gleki> en:banxe'unu
09:27 < mensi> banxe'unu = x1 is the language with ISO 639-3 code ''hun'' (Hungarian).
09:27 < b_jonas> gleki: sorry, I was replying to your previous attempt
09:28 < b_jonas> {ei mi troci i lu mi pu zi facki lo du'u makau poi tcila lo te traduki be la'e la a'eneid bei la lakatos istvan gi'enai rilti cu cizra}
09:28 < gleki> ban- should be a prefix resulting in the full copy of bangu place structure
09:28 < ldlework> Aeneis ay nice
09:29 < durka42> strange that {gugdexe'u} has an x2 (but no x3) but {banxe'unu} has only x1
09:29 < gleki> b_jonas: in my first attempt one may assume that rhythm is a detail of text
09:29 < zipcpi> It's kinda why I favor the ZOhOI cmavo even though some don't like it
09:29 < gleki> en: banxe'unu
09:29 < mensi> banxe'unu = x1 is the language with ISO 639-3 code ''hun'' (Hungarian). |>>> See also bangu |>>>
09:29 < mensi> glekizmiku
09:30 < gleki> indeed strange
09:30 < gleki> en: bangenugu
09:30 < mensi> bangenugu = x1 is the language with ISO 639-3 code ''eng'' (English). |>>> Cf. bangenugu, gliglibau, merbau, xinglibau,
09:30 < mensi> kadnyglibau, sralybau, kisyglibau, nanfi'oglibau, bangrnaidjiria. |>>> totus
09:30 < zipcpi> Because sometimes cmevla-izing something obfuscates too much
09:30 < gleki> en: banru'usu
09:30 < mensi> banru'usu = x1 is the language with ISO 639-3 code ''rus'' (Russian). |>>> Cf. rukybau. |>>>
09:30 < mensi> totus
09:31 < b_jonas> zipcpi: fwiw I'm not specifically against {zo'oi} grammar, even if I don't use it, I just don't like it when people try to make fifty variants, once for mountain names, one for city names, one for person names, one for species names etc.
09:31 < gleki> Say {ki'e} to la glekizmiku that 'ey didnt add all the places. it saves a megabyte in xml dumps ba'u xo'o
09:33 <@xalbo> I'm confused, has someone been proposing more ZOhOI than just {zo'oi}, {la'oi}, and {ra'oi}?
09:34 < zipcpi> {a'oi} means "the pirate named ...".... not really zo'o
09:34 < durka42> nah, I already defined {a'oi} in COI, u'i
09:35 < zipcpi> I know
09:35 < b_jonas> xalbo: not that I know of if you want exactly the same grammar. but there's like five that quote a word and make a free modifier, there's a few with other grammar too, such as ones that quote a word and make a selbri,
09:35 < b_jonas> and {ra'oi} is the one I specifically hate
09:35 < b_jonas> the most
09:36 < selpahi> There should be an {.o'ai} lolcat on https://8ch.net/jbo/ somewhere
09:36 <@xalbo> {ra'oi} I'm somewhat on the fence about, but it seems really wrong that rafsi are such a central part of lojban and completely unquoteable without going to pretty extreme lengths.
09:37 < b_jonas> I mean, loglan had a cmavo that quotes linnean taxnonomy names. CLL lojban did the right thing imo, and defined only two different quote semantics, {zoi} and {la'o}, because you can qualify species names, mountains, cities, persons from those with a relative phrase.
09:37 <@xalbo> (Or do you just prefer to use {zo'oi] for rafsi?)
09:37 < durka42> gleki: half a megabyte, apparently :) 60 chars * 7918 ta'ai bangenugu fu'ivla
09:37 < durka42> ba'u ru'e ru'e
09:38 < gleki> durka42: still too bad
09:38 < gleki> loglan:lao
09:39 < gleki> loglan: lao
09:39 < durka42> hmm crazy idea, what if we just made a "quoting rafsi"
09:39 < zipcpi> I think Loglan was before I was born
09:39 < mensi> lao = the Linnaean taxon...(LA)..
09:39 < mensi> lao = the Linnaean taxon...(LA)..
09:39 < durka42> kaixre => la'o .raf. kai .raf.
09:40 < gleki> zipcpi: mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_timeline
09:40 < durka42> I just Greenspunned the lujvo system, didn't I
09:40 < selpahi> durka42: Well I made this: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/rafsi_zi%27evla
09:40 < b_jonas> xalbo: yes, just use {zo'oi} or {zoi} (though I have two whimsical proposals as well: make any gismu of pattern zoCCV mean "x1 is the rafsi CCV" and quote other short rafsi with "zo")
09:41 < zipcpi> But that won't have the same grammar
09:41 < b_jonas> (it's hard for me to unnotice that "zo" is the only letter pair that doesn't occur at the start of any gismu in the original list)
09:41 < zipcpi> You'd then have to make it lo zocme, but still zo kai
09:41 < durka42> selpahi: that is nice!
09:41  * durka42 fixes the table formatting
09:41 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yes, it's not a serious proposal, and that's not even the biggest problem
09:41 <@xalbo> zo kainrafsi zo'u x1 is -kai-, which is rafsi to x2 (default {ckaji} of form x3 (default CVV) in language x4 (Lojban)
09:42 < zipcpi> Oh right, breaks the "gismu minimal pair" rule, as well as the "no XXXXV where the only difference is V" rule
09:42 < zipcpi> Though the broda-gismu do break that rule
09:44 < selpahi> ki'e la durka
09:44 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yes, but not even that. the main problem is that I definitely don't want to suddenly consume 245 gismu (or 49 gism) for something that I rarely want to speak of, and something for which there's already good clear ways to say in other ways. the gismu space isn't so cheap.
09:44 <@xalbo> selpahi: So is the full place structure of {rafrbali} just "x1 is the rafsi -bal-"?
09:44 < zipcpi> Yeah that too
09:45 < durka42> mi zanru
09:45 < b_jonas> gismu should be allocated for when it's really useful, not at whims like this
09:45 < b_jonas> (and cmavo as well)
09:45 < b_jonas> (but yes, I'm a hypocrite, I don't like new grammar because it's new grammar, except when I do)
09:46 < durka42> lo morsi xirma mo'u se darxi
09:47 <@xalbo> "Why are you all wasting time proposing all this stupid new grammar while ignoring my awesome ideas for new grammar‽"
09:47 < b_jonas> xalbo: yes, exactly
09:47 < zipcpi> Hey can someone think of a lujvo really quick that is of the form CVCyCVV
09:47 < durka42> rapyda'i
09:47 <@xalbo> Spoken like a true jbopre.
09:48 < durka42> vlaste: CCVyCVV
09:48 < vlaste> no results. http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/CCVyCVV
09:48 < zipcpi> ki'e durka
09:48 <@xalbo> rapyda'i, you're the one. You make bathtime lots of fun.
09:48 < durka42> suddenly I want to add this feature :)
09:49 < ldlework> xalbo: u'isai
09:49 <@xalbo> CCVyCVV isn't legal. You'd only have a -y- hyphen between consonants.
09:49 < durka42> whoops typo
09:50 <@xalbo> (Unless you're expecting that to fu'ivla. Classic fu'ivla can't have -y- at all, and I can't keep track of the proposals that do use them.)
09:50 < durka42> no, I meant to retype CVCyCVV
09:50 <@xalbo> je'e
09:50 < durka42> you'd never have Vy in any case
09:50 < b_jonas> zipcpi: {nisydei}
09:51 < zipcpi> That's not se jbovlaste
09:51 < b_jonas> yeah, I know, I didn't add any words there
09:52 < zipcpi> Lead-day?
09:52 < zipcpi> Yeah I kinda wanted one that meant something... fau'u
09:52 < b_jonas> zipcpi: Saturday, same as {xavdei}
09:52 < selpahi> popygau is sorta common where I live
09:52 < zipcpi> I want the y
09:53 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yes, that's why I said {nisydei} which needs the "y"
09:53 < zipcpi> But nisydei doesn't mean anything. Anyway someone already suggested rapyda'i
09:53 < zipcpi> Oh sorry
09:53 < b_jonas> zipcpi: or {fasybau}
09:53 < zipcpi> Didn't see you define it
09:54 < demize> Too bad lead isn't radioactive
09:54 < selpahi> I reformatted the examples on http://mw.lojban.org/papri/rafsi_zi%27evla
09:54 < selpahi> +1 for gleki's templates
09:54 < durka42> .i'
09:54 < durka42> .i'e
09:55 < zipcpi> "All words that either have a consonant cluster in them, or have two consonants separated by y (with the exception of letter-word clusters like xykycydy.), are brivla, (from bridi valsi, "predicate words"). These words have very specific meanings, and tend to contain the semantic bulk of Lojban text. Some brivla are .ernace ("hedgehog"), vecnu ("to
09:55 < zipcpi>  sell"), rapyda'i (to hit repeatedly), and... well, brivla itself."
09:56 < zipcpi> That's why I wanted something of that shape, to give an example of a y-glued "consonant cluster"
09:56 < selpahi> What about cmevla?
09:56 < b_jonas> zipcpi: oh, why didn't you say so?
09:56 < zipcpi> Oh forgot. I did define cmevla first
09:56 < b_jonas> there's much more if you allow CVCyCCV and CVCyCVCCV shaped too
09:57 < zipcpi> No... because I want it to be the *only* "consonant cluster"
09:57 <@xalbo> b_jonas: Those contain other consonant clusters
09:57 < b_jonas> ah!
09:57 < b_jonas> ok
09:57 < b_jonas> then {fasybau}
09:57 < b_jonas> or something. I wouldn't know.
09:58 < zipcpi> lo'ai All words sa'ai All words that end with a vowel le'ai
09:59 < zipcpi> Oh actually it'd be better if it didn't have a '
10:00 < selpahi> Did you read cirko's recent summary of the morphology?
10:00 < zipcpi> I'll use fasybau then
10:00 < zipcpi> selpahi: No I haven't; link please?
10:00 < durka42> what about {.a'a'a'avla} :)
10:00 < zipcpi> I'm working partly based of the CLL and partly based off my observations
10:02 < selpahi> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban-beginners/f-u86pPQ-TQ/BVFmXWTSgSQJ
10:02 < durka42> .a'u
10:02 < selpahi> (+1 for observations, doi la zipcpi)
10:03 < durka42> zoi gy +1 gy cu me me'o .i'e bu
10:04 < b_jonas> a quick search gives these that I like: rixybo'u = spine; pofygau = break, make not working; timymo'a = climate; jonyja'e = combination;
10:05 < selpahi> .oi mi nelci no lo valsi
10:06 < selpahi> .i je nai ku'i xebni su'o lo valsi
10:07 <@xalbo> {fasybau} seems the most common in actual usage.
10:07 < selpahi> .i mi cizra su'o da lo ka nelci ma kau .i ta'o do mo la .8tcan.
10:08 < b_jonas> tisyse'a = fill; mipyja'o = reveal, unveil to public; sidyfau = inspiration;
10:08 < selpahi> tisyse'a I use
10:09 < gleki> selpahi: ma nuzba la mupli
10:09 < b_jonas> xalbo: actually I'd guess various -gau and -mau stuff are in more common use, but I for one try to choose subjectively here
10:09 < selpahi> mi djuno no da lo nuzba da'i .i ko retsku fi la cirko ja la durka
10:09 <@xalbo> je'e
10:09 < selpahi> .i .oi mi pu bilga lo drata
10:10 < b_jonas> and -zu'e I guess
10:10 < gleki> durka42: ma nuzba lo gredile pe la mupli
10:10 < gleki> gocti: ma nuzba lo gredile pe la mupli
10:10 < durka42> mi zukcfu .oi sei nuzba
10:10 < zipcpi> doi selpa'i xu do retsku mi do'e la .8tcan.
10:11 < selpahi> retsku fi ro tcidu
10:11 < b_jonas> selpahi: pity. how do you say "spine" (bone) instead?
10:11 < selpahi> .i mi djuno lo du'u do pilno la .8tcan. doi la zipcpi
10:11 < zipcpi> cutyti'e + bongu
10:11 < zipcpi> cutyti'ebo'u
10:12 < zipcpi> cutrixybo'u
10:13 < zipcpi> Wait... that's a tosmabru
10:13 < zipcpi> cu + trixybo'u
10:14 < durka42> no it isn't
10:14 < selpahi> I don't know what to do about {'}. {.y'y} is taken up, although it's confusing.
10:14 < durka42> wait it is but why
10:14 < durka42> why isn't trixybo'u a slinku'i
10:14 < zipcpi> Only zi'evla can be slinku'i
10:14 < durka42> oh right
10:14 < durka42> mi bebna
10:15 < selpahi> ko zifre doi valsi .i ko ckaji lo melbi be do
10:15 < zipcpi> Oh ... Yeah there's that
10:16 < zipcpi> You can kinda see the problem right on my page
10:16 < zipcpi> I have two suggestions... .iy'y or y'y'y
10:16 < zipcpi> But I don't know what to do about y'y
10:16 < b_jonas> zipcpi: I propose {.yz. bu} actually, and {.iz. bu} for the letter "i"
10:16 < selpahi> The question is, if {.y'y} became {y}, then how to refer to {'} ?
10:16 < b_jonas> but you can say they're too long
10:17 < b_jonas> selpahi: no really, what ]do you call a spine?
10:17 < b_jonas> I'm curious now
10:17 < zipcpi> cutyti'ebo'u
10:17 < zipcpi> Unless the lujvo maker can make something else
10:17 < durka42> vlaste: cutyti'ebo'u
10:17 < vlaste> cutyti'ebo'u (components) = cutne trixe bongu ≈ chest back bone
10:18 < zipcpi> Where is jvozba when you need it
10:18 < durka42> nope that is the best
10:18 < durka42> (vlaste would have shown a lower-scoring rebuild if there were one)
10:18 < zipcpi> Ah
10:18 < durka42> vlaste: cutyrixybo'u
10:18 < vlaste> cutyti'ebo'u (components) = cutne trixe bongu ≈ chest back bone
10:18 < zipcpi> cutyti'e is already the lujvo for upper back
10:18 < b_jonas> zipcpi: dunno. I'd like the whole spine, not just the chest part.
10:19 < b_jonas> the whole thing, up to my neck.
10:19 < zipcpi> Well that's the best I could come up with... it's somewhat of a cimjvo
10:19 < b_jonas> and {rixybo'u} is already the lujvo for that, it's sanction by the official gismu list
10:19 < zipcpi> Oh
10:20 < b_jonas> sure, that doesn't mean you have to use it
10:20 < b_jonas> it's just that I didn't invent it
10:20 < zipcpi> Yeah jbovlaste only has noralujv's auto-definition though
10:20 < b_jonas> the gismu list has some stupid rafsi, and even a few that seem outright errors
10:20 < zipcpi> Which kinda sucks
10:21 < zipcpi> Yeah... the rafsi kinda breaks regularity... but there is no real way to fix them
10:21 < selpahi> sa'u mi pu xusra lo du'u mi na'e nelci lo valsi .i na nibli lo du'u mi na pilno .i ku'i je'u mi na .u'i pilno .i mi pilno zo bongykamju mu'a pu ku .i .e'u nai zo'o casnu fa mi jo'u ma kau lo si'o lujvo
10:22 < selpahi> .i li'a lo xadni valsi na rau mei .i je so'i lo zasti valsi na melbi
10:22 < zipcpi> It's why I said: loi lujvo cu morsi .i a'o ze'u jmive fa loi lujvo
10:22 < selpahi> .i ji'a na sezysarxe fa lo valsi
10:22 < selpahi> .i zo'o ko finti su'o kamni
10:22 < b_jonas> je'e
10:23 < selpahi> .i ti'e pei mi me la jvospo
10:23 < selpahi> .i la selckiku mi te cmene
10:23 < b_jonas> u'i
10:24 <@xalbo> I'd keep {.y'y.} for ⟨'⟩ and use something completely different for ⟨y⟩. I think at one point I suggested {depsna bu}, or something.
10:25 < selpahi> Then all the other vowels have a nice cmavo, except {y}
10:25 < zipcpi> coi selpa'i
10:25 < selpahi> ma se prami do
10:25 <@xalbo> True, but ⟨y⟩ is pretty sui generis anyway.
10:25 < zipcpi> u'i jvospo
10:26 < zipcpi> e'uzo'o mi finti lo jvospo fazykamni
10:26 < selpahi> zo'o ko gasnu lo sarcu
10:28 < gleki> "sui" sounds like la alta
10:29 < zipcpi> I thought sui is not allowed anymore
10:29 < ldlework> (ta'o, I have http requests working inside jbogu'e, I might be able to query sutsis, or one of the dictionaries soon)
10:29 < ldlework> (anyone have an opinion on what the easiest dictionary to use as an remote http api is? sutsis? vlasisku?)
10:29 < durka42> API is on the todo list for vlasisku :/
10:29 < gleki> in la alta sui = su'i
10:30 < ldlework> I see.
10:30 < gleki> sutsis is just an html5 app with a transformed xml dump inside
10:30 < ldlework> Maybe I should go in a different direction then
10:30 < ldlework> and just shell out to one of the commandline utilities
10:30 < gleki> an offline self-sufficient app
10:30 < zipcpi> ja'ai doi selpa'i .i mi pu tcidu lo do kibykarni
10:31 < ldlework> which would be the easiest single word lookup commandline utilities to parse the output of?
10:31 < gleki> durka42: is there a description of jvs db? which fields, which tables are used?
10:31 < ldlework> gleki: heh it would be cool to be able to manage/query jbovlaste from right inside the sim
10:32 < gleki> you may try taking some functions out of livla.js
10:32 < gleki> livla.js uses xml dumps directly
10:32 < gleki> without any db
10:32 < zipcpi> ni'ozo'o mi'e la jbospo .ije do me la jvospo
10:32 < ldlework> (ta'o ji'a, I could reeaaaallllllyyyyy use help from a creative person to try designing the terrain of jbogu'e islane. you can practically draw the terrain, so its not hard, you just need to have a vision)
10:32 < ldlework> island*
10:33 < durka42> gleki: in the "design" folder on github
10:33 < zipcpi> e'u mi'o kamvli gunma
10:33 < durka42> ba'anairu'e
10:35 < zipcpi> la jbospo je la jvospo cu cnino ke lisxra pacpre
10:35 < selpahi> za'a go'i
10:35 < selpahi> .i ko lifri lo ka se xebni .u'i .i ba'a nai ru'e do pu'i ie pei go'i
10:35 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
10:36 < selpahi> .i lo drata jbopre ca lo purci nu do jbopre cu nalka'e lo ka xarpei lo cnino
10:36 < zipcpi> ko jorne mi'a doi mensi
10:37 < selpahi> la mensi cu nelci lo sidbo
10:37 < selpahi> .i xu do nelci
10:37 < selpahi> .i xu co'u frati tu'a zo nelci
10:38 < durka42> ie pei
10:38 < mensi> ei mi tugni
10:39 < zipcpi> bu'a'a'a'a'a'a
10:40 < ldlework> xu su'o do larfi'i
10:40 < selpahi> mi brafi'a finti .i pe'i larcu
10:40 < selpahi> .i ji'a zgike finti .i ku'i na pirfi'i
10:43 < selpahi> coi la .niftyg.
10:44 < niftg> coi la selpa'i
10:44 < gleki> mi na nelci lo nu my nelci
10:44 < mensi> sei mi stace mi na mutce nelci
10:45 < selpahi> xu lu na nelci li'u po'o
10:45 < mensi> i mi i mi i mi mo i mi na nelci
10:46 < b_jonas> hmm, interesting, {bogykamju} is actually in the gimste too (same word as {bongykamju} which selpa'i suggested)
10:46 < gleki> i need to analyse jvs's db so that it still continues being compatible with the current jvs but has new columns and maybe new tables for implementing new features
10:46 < b_jonas> I didn't notice that
10:46 < b_jonas> ki'e
10:46 < gleki> en:bogykamju
10:46 < mensi> bogykamju [< bongu kamju ≈ Bone column] = k1 is the spine of b3. b3 is a vertebrate.
10:47 < b_jonas> yes, I just didn't notice that word.
10:47 < b_jonas> nice
10:47 < gleki> vertu bratu
10:48 < selpahi> Léon Vert-ebrate
10:49 < selpahi> la'a xajmi no mibdrata
10:49 < selpahi> #tohekihunaicmila
10:50 < zipcpi> a'onai
10:53 < zipcpi> ie mi na jimpe lo te xajmi
10:54 < selpahi> la'o me. Léon Werth .me pendo lo finti be la cmalu noltru
10:57 < zipcpi> ua
11:02 < zipcpi> lo damba larcu ctuca be mi cu cusku lu balrai befsri tuple zukte li'u
11:02 < zipcpi> mi cusku lu balrai befsri tuple ki'a li'u
11:02 < zipcpi> u'ise'i
11:03 < phma> vertu ki'a
11:03 < zipcpi> vi ma zo vertu
11:04 < phma> ne'i lu vertu bratu li'u
11:04 < zipcpi> u'i
11:04 < selpahi> .e'u pilno zo bu'u je nai zo vi
11:04 < zipcpi> zo'o cu srana lo nisku
11:05 < selpahi> #leimàblacnìno
11:06 < durka42> le'i malninselcmi
11:06 < gocti> gleki: lo la zei mupli gredile zo'u ze'a lo prula'i jeftu cu zukte no da
11:06 < gocti> .i na co'u .aidji vau ku'i
11:06 < zipcpi> mi se ctuca lo laldo ke ctufau cukta
11:06 < durka42> xu nilsutra fa lo gocti vau zo'o
11:06 < gocti> go'i
11:11 < gocti> zipcpi: va'o lo nu do djica co tcidu lo me mi moi ne lo vlaturge'a zo'u: la'e di'e versiio co se dragau
11:11 < gocti> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/informal_description_of_the_PEG_morphology_algorithm/condensed
11:17 < zipcpi> ki'e
11:17 < zipcpi> Yeah I used the more technical terms... lmnr are sonorants, the other consonants are obstruents
11:19 < gocti> je'u lo se pilno be mi na mulno co drani .i so'a nu pilno lo me'oi syllabic zunsna na kernelo lo slaka
11:26 < gleki> phma: lo vertu cu kargu fonxa
11:27 < gleki> i ku'i fa po'o lo vertebrata cu kakne lo ka te vecnu lo vertu bratu
11:49 < Zyxl> Quick question: is "le sutra cu tavla" equivalent to "le sutra ku cu tavla" or "le sutra cu tavla ku" or neither?
11:49 < durka42> the first one
11:49 < Zyxl> Thanks.
11:50 < durka42> the optional terminator you'd put at the end of a bridi is {vau}, not {ku}, FWIW
11:50 < Zyxl> FWIW?
11:50 < durka42> "for what it's worth"
11:54 < Ilmen> coi
11:59 < zipcpi> ei mi sipna .i co'o ro do
12:01 <@xalbo> {le sutra cu tavala}, {le sutra ku cu tavala}, and {le sutra ku tavla} are all the same; *{le sutra cu tavla ku} is ungrammatical.
12:01 <@xalbo> {tavla} for all (wow, how did I make that same typo twice?. Ugh.)
12:09 < Zyxl> In a conversation, do words such as go'i refer to the last sentence by you, or the last sentence said by anyone? Also, are any sumti carried over as well?
12:10 < gleki> it copies the last clause (bridi) with sumti said by anyone.
12:10 < Zyxl> So you have to use zo'e to overwrite sumti you don't want?
12:11 < gleki> By explicitly adding sumti and adverbs/prepositions to {go'i} you can override them being copied from the last clause.
12:11 < gleki> mi nelci - mi go'i
12:11 < gleki> I like - I too.
12:11 < Zyxl> or just ho'i for the second one.
12:11 < Zyxl> *go'i
12:12 < gleki> oh, actually the meaning is copied, so "I" becomes "you" when said by the replier.
12:12 < gleki> mi nelci - go'i
12:12 < gleki> I like - you do
12:12 < gleki> mi nelci - go'i
12:12 < gleki> I like - yes (you do)
12:12 < Zyxl> Okay. Thanks.
12:12 < durka42> mi nelci - go'i ra'o
12:12 < durka42> I like - I do too
12:14 < Zyxl> Does ra'o always go immediately after the bridi?
12:21 < Ilmen> ra'o must be right after go'i
12:21 < Ilmen> @ Zyxl
12:21 < Zyxl> Got it.
12:39 < phma> ra'o can also modify mo or du, neither of which makes much sense, or no'a
12:40 < gocti> va'o su'o cipra gerna cu cmavo ma'oi ui :p
12:42 < phma> "do mo ra'o? — tavla mi" is equivalent to "do mo? — do tavla mi"
12:42 < phma> and here's my example of no'a ra'o:
12:43 < gocti> ua
12:43 < phma> la .djan. klama le zdani be vo'a pu le nu la .meris. no'a
12:43 < phma> John went to John's house before Mary did
12:44 < phma> la .djan. klama le zdani be vo'a pu le nu la .meris. no'a ra'o
12:44 < phma> John went home before Mary did
12:44 < phma> In the second sentence Mary went to Mary's house. In the first, she went to John's.
12:45 < gocti> simlu co plixau
12:45 < phma> .iku'i lu du ra'u li'u na plixau
12:46 < phma> .i ma smuni lu mi du ra'o do li'u?
12:46 < phma> ra'u si ra'o
12:46 < gocti> la'a no da .i ku'i tu'e
12:47 < gocti> lo karce poi mi ponse cu du lo zdani be mi sei A cusku .i du ra'o sei B cusku tu'u
12:47 < selpahi> tai banfi si banli li'o
12:47 < gocti> flkjahdskj
12:48 < gocti> ta'o ki'e do doi ro lo .8tcan. pilno
12:48 < gocti> .i ii'inmo lo nu lo snustu di'a na cando
12:48 < selpahi> ie
12:49 < selpahi> da'i mi gleki lo nu zmiku lo ka jungau mi lo du'u cnino notci
12:49 < selpahi> .i ku'i li'a na se jaspu
12:49 < selpahi> .i ju'o cu'i su'o da tutci ku'i
12:50 < selpahi> .i ko mi va'o jungau .i mi cnino la .8tcan.
12:50 < selpahi> .i la .8tcan. mi cnino
12:50 < gocti> zasti fa lo me'oi watchlist noi ku'i jai se sarcu lo nu soi macnu cu di'i kibvi'e
12:50 < selpahi> ie .i mi pu troci je fliba
12:51 < selpahi> .i xu su'o .eksterna tutci cu zasti
12:51 < gocti> mi na se slabu
14:33 < Zyxl> How would I say something like "Why aren't you driving?"? My best attempt at saying "What is the reason you are not a driver?" is "ma krinu le do na klasazri" but I don't know how to use a bridi as a selbri.
14:34 < selpahi> Yeah, you still need a {nu}
14:34 < selpahi> Because {le do na klasazri} means the same as {le na klasazri pe do}, "the not driver of yours"
14:34 < selpahi> I'd say {ki'u ma do na sazri}
14:35 < selpahi> But you can use krinu, too: {ma krinu lo nu do na sazri}
14:35 < selpahi> {nu ... kei} turns bridi into selbri.
14:35 < selpahi> And {lo ... ku} turns selbri into sumti
14:35 < selpahi> Combine them, and you can turn bridi into sumti
14:36 < Zyxl> Thanks, but I thought {le ... ku} made a selbri a sumti.
14:36 < Zyxl> Was that something that got changed?
14:36 < selpahi> No, that's right. {lo ... ku} (or le...ku) turns a *selbri* into a sumti
14:36 < selpahi> But the sumti then refers to the x1 of that selbri
14:36 < selpahi> Thus, {le klasazri} is a *driver*
14:37 < selpahi> But you want to talk about *driving*
14:37 < selpahi> That is, you want to talk about an event or situation or action as an object (sumti)
14:37 < Zyxl> Ah yes, that distinction is important.
14:37 < selpahi> You do that with {nu}
14:41 < zahlman> coi
14:41 < selpahi> coi la zanmla coi la nacpre coi la .tsalman.
14:42 < zahlman> right; but {lo} and {le} are in the same grammatical class here.
14:42 < zahlman> oi, I was scrolled up
14:43 < zahlman> iu mi cimoi se rinsa
14:43 < zahlman> lo irci i'u
14:44 < zahlman> y sa'ai se irci
15:01 < Zyxl> I think I just remembered that le is specifically for real things, whereas lo is for something that may or may not be real (e.g. imaginary; not mathematically speaking). It's probably more nuanced than that, so feel free to correct me :)
15:14 < phma> {lo} is for things that are really what you say they are, {le} for things that may be inaccurately described as such.
15:15 < phma> {le} is for when you have some particular thing in mind, {lo} doesn't imply that.
15:15 < phma> Often you can use either article.
15:16 < Zyxl> Yeah, I just checked and found out I got them a bit confused.
15:22 < ldlework> Zyxl: I mostly ignore the 'inaccurately described' sense, and use it for 'I have a specific version of this thing in mind'
15:23 < ldlework> Cake is delicious, but this cake is terrible.
15:45 < Zyxl> How would I use spatial tenses to specify "where I (the speaker) am"?
15:49 < Zyxl> Oh. Apparently vi means here or a short distance away.
15:52 < durka42> bu'u
15:54 < Zyxl> That's more specific, ty.
17:32 < _mukti_> coi la durkavore
17:34 < durka42> coi
17:36 < durka42> .oi la .eidiium. noi .irci proga cu spoja
17:36 < durka42> _mukti_: do mo
17:37 < _mukti_> mi pilno la'o zoi LimeChat zoi
17:38 < durka42> ua
17:38 < durka42> xu banli
17:39 < durka42> mi ca cilre la furtirse noi samplabau
17:42 < _mukti_> ie .i banzu lo ka banli
17:43 < _mukti_> zo furtirse .u'i
17:51 < durka42> la furtirse ku ji'a cu banli
17:52 < durka42> .ai finti la .camxes.rs. zo'o ru'e
17:52 < durka42> lo gentufa cu cnino ke munje rinsa proga
18:08  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban by Mukti - Move language bar below the fold [http://bit.ly/1A8epiO]
18:11 < durka42> ua
18:27  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: cinmo lo ka sisti lo nu citno zukte enai lo nu ma'urnau zukte .i ui   #cunso #nunpensi #lojban [http://bit.ly/1A8gueB]
19:38 < durka42> lo .uitki cu ma'a'a'asn
19:38 < durka42> o
19:44  * nuzba @uitki: pronunciation guide in English - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/pronunciation_guide_in_English by Durka42 [http://bit.ly/1JmuVxN]
19:44  * nuzba @uitki: pronunciation guide in English - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/pronunciation_guide_in_English by Durka42 [http://bit.ly/1JmuVOn]
20:54 < durka42> cnino kelka'u ri'e .ii
20:55 < durka42> ju'i la _mukti_
20:59 < _mukti_> coi
21:01 < durka42> mi ju'i zei rinsa sera'a la jansu vau .u'i
21:01 < durka42> mi maltcu
21:04 < _mukti_> ue .u'i
21:21 < durka42> la'a mi du'edji jecu bazi canci
21:21 < durka42> ku'i zdile
22:29 < ldlework> so
22:29 < ldlework> I have got a ton of stuff loaded into jbogu'e!
22:29 < ldlework> a ton of stuff to build out a true jbocmatca
22:30 < ldlework> lots of village-y stuff, including outdoor kitchen and farming stuff
22:30 < ldlework> I'm thinking of so much language teaching stuff that can be done with this
22:31 < ldlework> it would be super helpful if people could come in and help organize all the assets and rename them to a consistent naming scheme
22:31 < ldlework> though I know no one will, I'll ask anyway
23:05 < guest`> "mi nelci lo spageti .o nai lo rismi .e lo dembi" means "I like (spaghetti or rice) and beans" or "I like spaghetti or (rice and beans)"?
23:06 < gleki> exp: mi nelci lo spageti .o nai lo rismi .e lo dembi
23:06 < mensi> (mi [CU {nelci <lo spageti KU> <(¹o nai¹) (¹lo rismi KU¹)> <e (¹lo dembi KU¹)>} VAU])
23:06 < gleki> yacc: mi nelci lo spageti .o nai lo rismi .e lo dembi
23:06 < mensi> (mi {nelci <[({lo spageti KU} {o nai} {lo rismi KU}) e (lo dembi KU)] VAU> })
23:07 < akmnlrse> cipr: mi nelci lo spageti .o nai lo rismi .e lo dembi
23:07 < cipr> ([FIhA mi] [CU {nelci <(¹FIhA [{<lo spageti KU> <o nai> <lo rismi KU>} e {lo dembi KU}]¹) VAU>}])
23:07 < akmnlrse> (to .o'i za'o na sai bredi co pilno toi)
23:08 < akmnlrse> guest`: it's the first one
23:10 < gleki> http://lojban.github.io/cll/14/7/#e4
23:10 < gleki> Lojban logical connectives pair off from the left, like many constructs in the language.
23:11 < gleki> However, ... where several “bo”-marked connectives are used in succession, the normal Lojban left-grouping rule is replaced by a right-grouping rule. [ http://lojban.github.io/cll/14/8/ ]
23:13 < gleki> So you may use {.ebo} instead of {.e} to get the second meaning.
23:15 < guest`> thanks
23:56 < gleki> Wth. Do you like this new formatting of the front page???
--- Day changed Sat May 16 2015
00:15 < gleki> mensi: doi mukti you links to this page however it doesnt exist http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=LLG_Honorary_Officers&action=edit&redlink=1
00:15 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.mukti.gy. di'a cusku da
00:17 < gleki> mensi: doi mukti also I think that embedding News section onto the front page make the front page too bulky with lots of links that imo no one will follow. Why not just put a hyperlink to the News section/
00:17 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.mukti.gy. di'a cusku da
00:33  * nuzba @voxelcomposer: @urbanfriendden Not relevant, but it fit the form for a Lojban word. So I looked it up. It isn't one; but 'gutra,' 'kufra', and 'jutra' are. [http://bit.ly/1Kc6dBz]
00:57 < gleki> mensi: doi durka I dont like jei in slilu3 because it's basically xokauva'e but without the ability to put {kau} to specific parts of a clause
00:57 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.durka.gy. di'a cusku da
01:33  * nuzba @uitki: zipcpi: zo i'au ki'a? FAQ about the new cmavo, i'au - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/zipcpi:_zo_i%27au_ki%27a%3F_FAQ_about_the_new_cmavo,_i%27au by Spheniscine [http://bit.ly/1IDGT6Y]
02:22 < gleki> Hm, {mo'u} can be turned into a place using {fe'e} but {ne'i} can't be turned into tense preposition.
--- Log closed Sat May 16 02:37:27 2015
--- Log opened Sat May 16 02:37:37 2015
02:37 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 129 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 127 normal]
02:39 -!- Irssi: Join to #lojban was synced in 132 secs
04:04 < PrincessBecca> coi
04:08 < gleki_> coi principe
04:08 < gleki_> si princesa
04:12 < PrincessBecca> coi la gleki
04:12 < PrincessBecca> is there a memrise course for the wave lessons?
04:12 < PrincessBecca> i only see one for "wave lessons continued"
04:14 < PrincessBecca> ah wait... the vocab looks equal to the wave lessons
04:14 < PrincessBecca> nevermind
04:14 < gleki_> In future we need to make a course out of simple sentences from Tatoeba and La Bangu
04:15 < PrincessBecca> oh wow.... selbri = se bridi
04:16 < PrincessBecca> i just realized that
04:21 < gleki> yes, it means exactly the same. these lujvo made out of short rafsi obscure the whole idea of having a single word for a bunch of interconnected aspects. {se bridi} is a much more clear construct
04:54 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 132 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 130 normal]
05:35 < _mukti_> gleki, are you here?
05:35 < mensi> _mukti_: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: you links to this page however it doesnt exist http://mw.lojban.org/index.
05:35 < mensi> php?title=LLG_Honorary_Officers&action=edit&redlink=1 | 2015-05-16T07:15:56.216Z
05:35 < mensi> _mukti_: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: also I think that embedding News section onto the front page make the front page too
05:35 < mensi> bulky with lots of links that imo no one will follow. Why not just put a hyperlink to the News section/ |
05:35 < mensi> 2015-05-16T07:17:00.572Z
05:36 < _mukti_> gleki, I would strongly suggest that if you don't like my edits, you discuss it with me rather than reverting them
05:37 < _mukti_> I find it ironic that you think that it's appropriate to have a set of huge flags that never change above the fold, but find news "too bulky"
05:38 < _mukti_> The point of having news on the front page is so that people immediately see: Hey, this is an active community.
05:41 < zipcpi> be'e
05:44 < _mukti_> re'i
05:50 < zipcpi> coi
05:51 < _mukti_> coi la zipcpi
05:51 < zipcpi> xu ti se jbobau .i zo'oi http://www.sinma.com.my/
05:52 < _mukti_> .u'i
05:52 < zipcpi> u'i
05:53 < _mukti_> mensi doi gleki The main page of the wiki is now the main page of lojban.org: I'm happy to have a discussion about the contents with you and others, but reverting my edits is disrespectful
05:53 < _mukti_> mensi: doi gleki The main page of the wiki is now the main page of lojban.org: I'm happy to have a discussion about the contents with you and others, but reverting my edits is disrespectful
05:53 < mensi> _mukti_: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
05:56 < zipcpi> zo'onai mi kucli
05:59 < zipcpi> cizra cunkemra'afau
06:16 < zipcpi> co'o
06:58 < gleki> _mukti_: I moved the news section to the bottom like it was in the tiki. also i made the flag section 12 px less in height
06:58 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy._mukti_.gy.: The main page of the wiki is now the main page of lojban.org: I'm happy to have a
06:58 < mensi> discussion about the contents with you and others, but reverting my edits is disrespectful | 2015-05-16T12:53:54.
06:58 < mensi> 381Z
06:59 < gleki> _mukti_: my comment was not about the space but about how much information is given. flags consume space, but they dont add much information.
06:59 < gleki> Also I'm trying to understand why the top space of 1.25 em in height doesnt want to be removed. probably caching.
07:00 < _mukti_> Yes, you have to purge pages that contain transclusions after an edit.
07:00 < gleki> _mukti_: you see, people will now open the main page, see that it's not in their language and close the website!
07:01 < gleki> they wont scroll to the end
07:01 < _mukti_> I think that's highly unlikely
07:01 < gleki> _mukti_: maybe i can just make the flag section less in height and restore it back to the front?
07:02 < gleki> And I dont understand why News should come before the main info about Lojban
07:02 < gleki> like what is Lojban and how to learn it.
07:02 < _mukti_> Venn diagram: On one side, those potentially interested in a constructed language such as lojban. On the other side, souls either so timid or so proud about language that they flee from web sites written in other languages.
07:02 < _mukti_> How much overlap?!
07:03 < gleki> The newcomer is immediately presented at some strange names and cryptics names like gleki, selpahi etc.
07:03 < _mukti_> I think it's possible to seek more balance, e.g. shrinking the news section as I just did.
07:03 < _mukti_> That's a good point. However, I think it is vital that people immediately know that this is a community where things are happening and people are actively participating.
07:04 < gleki> I cant see News shrinked
07:04 < _mukti_> I probably haven't purged the front page since archiving the 2014 news.
07:04 < gleki> And what about flags? Can we just make them less in height and restore back?
07:04 < _mukti_> There, did it.
07:05 < _mukti_> I would not mind if the flags are at the top if they take up no more vertical room than two lines of text.
07:05 < _mukti_> (or as a subheader)
07:05 < Ilmen> .oi sai mi tolmo'i tu'a lo nu vokta'a pe lo cabdei
07:06 < gleki> _mukti_: i cant see any changes
07:06 < _mukti_> gleki: Which changes are you looking for?
07:06 < gleki> _mukti_: i'd like News to be moved from the front to the right part or to the bottom
07:08 < Ilmen> za'a la .niftyg. ca'o jundi la mambl
07:08 < gleki> Also this part: "This site is available in many languages including Lojban, and includes an introduction to Lojban, resources for learning Lojban, and instructions for getting in touch with the Lojban-using community.
07:08 < gleki> "
07:08 < gleki> _mukti_: those links lead to nowhere
07:08 < _mukti_> What links?
07:09 < gleki> available in many languages
07:09 < gleki> Just remove this section and present not links to section but what was earlier: links to resources
07:09 < _mukti_> They're internal links, for example the part about the community links to the "Connect with the community" section
07:10 < gleki> Yes, remove them and make The sections immediately available without any extra clicks
07:10 < gleki> The rule of thumb: no one is gonna click or search anything: people ar lazy.
07:10 < gleki> *are
07:11 < gleki> _mukti_: so may I make the News float to the right like it was in the tiki?
07:11 < gleki> The front page looks dso ugly to me now that I have no words.
07:11 < _mukti_> gleki: The news didn't float right, although the other dynamic elements did.
07:12 < gleki> Now the front page is a completely geekish page.
07:12 < Ilmen> exp: tcizybaga
07:12 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "t" found.
07:12 < gleki> What is BPFK?
07:12 < _mukti_> You're entitled to your opinion about the ugliness of the page. I'm still of the opinion that any skin that looks like a mediawiki site is a bad choice.
07:12 < Ilmen> off: tcizybaga
07:12 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "t" found.
07:12 < gleki> What is Prince and CLL?
07:12 < gleki> Who the hell is going to be interested in that???
07:13 < _mukti_> Oh lord, geekiness on a lojban web site? What's next?!
07:13 < Ilmen> off: satcizybaga
07:13 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "s" found.
07:14 < gleki> _mukti_: seriously why dont you want to have News via a separate link if you do that same for Learning resources?
07:14 < gleki> What is more important?
07:14 <@Broca> It took me a while to catch on to the fat that "Prince" is a pun.
07:14 < gleki> I'm just furious. I dont want to learn Lojban anymore. Seriously.
07:14 <@Broca> *fact # stupid keyboard
07:15 < Ilmen> What's going on?
07:15 < gleki> the front page is ruined
07:15 < _mukti_> Apparently, by moving the huge flag buttons to the bottom of the lojban page, I ruined it.
07:16 < gleki> _mukti_: so may i make the News float to the right?
07:16 < _mukti_> gleki: I'd be interested to see what that looks like -- give it a try.
07:17 < gleki> As for flags previously durka said he liked how it was. So I hoped we were settled.
07:18 < _mukti_> gleki: I'd be glad to discuss any aspect of the layout of the front page in a larger forum. But you may have to let go of some of the control that you had over LMW when it was your personal project. It is now the home page for LLG.
07:18 < _mukti_> That's the price of success!
07:21 < gleki> _mukti_: but it doesnt mean anyone can come and make something geeky and unusable. You cherish this game of diplomacy, I cherish muplis. But newcomers dont care of any muktis and glekis. They need a tool, not history
07:21 < gleki> or names
07:22 < _mukti_> I think you make a number of good points, and that we should strive to balance the concerns that you are expressing and those that I am expressing, and those of others as well.
07:23 < _mukti_> It's important that the site is friendly to someone coming to learn about lojban for the first time. But we do a disservice to future potential lojbanists if we do not communicate that there is an active community.
07:24 < _mukti_> That's not theoretical for me. I stayed away from lojban for a year because I thought it might be dead because the home page of the tiki showed no changes for almost three years.
07:26 < Ilmen> "You cherish this game of diplomacy" .u'i ua nai ru'e
07:26 < Ilmen> mi zo'u la nu jansu cu zenba lo ka tolpu'a
07:26 < Ilmen> .u'i
07:26 < gleki> _mukti_: why not just add a link to the News into the front page, not the whole content of it. It sounds like you want to include the whole CLL into the front page. Sorry for exaggerating.
07:26 < _mukti_> Well, yes, that is a bit of an exaggeration.
07:27 < gleki> In fact there is a section "Connect with the community". you may include a link to it there.
07:27 < _mukti_> Adding a link to news gives a visitor no assurance that there is any news.
07:27 < gleki> Besides, have you seen the link "News" in the left sidebar? We can relink it to your news page.
07:27 < _mukti_> Yes, and how many visitors are going to scroll that far down to see a bunch of links
07:27 < _mukti_> Are you aware of the idea of "above the fold" ?
07:27 < gleki> _mukti_: but giving a link to learning resources? Does it assure there are learning resources?
07:28 < _mukti_> The space at the top of the page is precious.
07:28 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
07:28 < gleki> look here.
07:28 < _mukti_> No, it doesn't, but: 1. It's an intra-page link. 2. It's an improvement on making the user scroll down really far.
07:28 < gleki> although it's better to open this page while not being logged off.
07:29 < _mukti_> Which is to say, though linking to learning resources is not great, it's an improvement on the status quo.
07:29 < _mukti_> No news, and you still can't see the learning resources without scrolling.
07:29 < gleki> _mukti_: so you are making people not to scroll for the news. But you force them to scroll for textbooks? Are you serious? They wont scroll that far after reading this geeky names like mukti and gleki.
07:29 < Ilmen> How about a box showing the latest news in a corner but that isn't too big and with a link for further news?
07:29 < Ilmen> or further details
07:29 < gleki> That's what I tried to do in the last link.
07:29 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
07:30 < gleki> When not being logged in it looks better.
07:30 < gleki> Without "edit" buttong.
07:30 < gleki> buttons*
07:30 < gleki> Waiting for your suggestions.
07:31 < Ilmen> Maybe more succint news with links to read them fully?
07:31 < _mukti_> I like the news in the right column. I think we should move or remove the image so we don't end up with an empty right gutter.
07:31 < _mukti_> Also, News shouldn't be under "A short introduction" in the outline
07:32 < gleki> We can put links to min-flags there.
07:32 < gleki> where the image was.
07:32 < _mukti_> They should be at the same outline level
07:32 < noncomcinse> coi jbopre ko gleki la mlatydei
07:32 < _mukti_> I could live with a flag box the same size as the current image
07:32 < gleki> _mukti_: As "A short introduction to Lojban" or just at top as "Lojban (pronounced as [ˈloʒban]) is a constructed language"?
07:33 < _mukti_> What I don't want is the flag box -- which is navigation -- crowding out content at the top
07:33 < gleki> I can think of a smaller box for "change your language"
07:33 < _mukti_> We already have enough navigation with the big buttons on the left
07:34 < Ilmen> http://en.lernu.net/  -- .e'u .inspira
07:34 < nejni-marji> But then you'd have to know what the "change language" button means if it's not set correctly yet.
07:34 < gleki> So shall we remove the image now and use this page as the main one? (flags will as they are now until i write a better flag box)
07:34 < Ilmen> la .lernus. zo'u lo bangu cuxna batke cu zvati lo kojna
07:35 < nejni-marji> Like imagine trying to find a language option when the entire menu is in another language.
07:35 < nejni-marji> Just a thought.
07:35 < Ilmen> .i lo nuzba cu se zvati lo midju .i je ku'i na'e brabra
07:36 < Ilmen> How about a single clickable flag, which when clicked allows selecting another language/flag?
07:36 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
07:36 < gleki> How about now?
07:36 < gleki> Flags will come later independently
07:37 < gleki> after further discussion
07:37 < _mukti_> I like Ilmen's idea
07:37 < _mukti_> That looks good, gleki.
07:37 < gleki> And someon please create the page http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=LLG_Honorary_Officers&action=edit&redlink=1
07:37 < gleki> I don't like this red link.
07:37 < _mukti_> Gleki, red links are integral to the idea of wikis.
07:37 < _mukti_> It's how they grow.
07:37 < gleki> _mukti_: please fill it in
07:37 < Ilmen> Please have a look to Lernu's home page; I'm sure they had similarly a lot of discussion for what to show on their home page
07:37 < _mukti_> It's not a bug, it's a feature. Seriously.
07:38 < gleki> Then I will fill it in right now
07:38 < _mukti_> Excellent, that's what it's for!
07:39 < gleki> Saying "let others do the work"?
07:39 < gleki> i see
07:40 < gleki> So since you approved of the new Welcome page I'm replacing the old one
07:40 < _mukti_> Great. Progress.
07:40 < gleki> As for the News link in the sidebar it's a known glico bug. I hope cirko or roz will create something better.
07:41 < _mukti_> FWIW, I don't see red links as about delegating to others, so much as the notion of gradual improvement.
07:41 < _mukti_> A red link says: "There's something more that could be said about this, but hasn't yet been said."
07:41 < gleki> Which means the the community is dead.
07:41 < gleki> This is exactly wha I'm thinking when seeing such mediawiwis
07:42 < gleki> *mediawikis
07:42 < _mukti_> Well, you know I'm for the mediawiki as platform, but don't like the idea that the lojban.org site looks like a mediawiki.
07:42 < gleki> Hm, the front page isnt nice now without the image.
07:42 < gleki> Maybe add the flag of Lojban?
07:42 < _mukti_> It's already there in the top left corner.
07:42 < gleki> _mukti_: im talking about red links
07:43 < gleki> _mukti_: where? do you have the metrolook skin enabled?
07:43 < _mukti_> I have whatever the default skin is.
07:43 < gleki> only Vector displays it
07:43 < gleki> _mukti_: please send me the screenshot
07:46 < _mukti_> http://vrici.lojban.org/~mukti/wiki.jpg
07:46 < gleki> _mukti_: im afraid you enabled Vector in your preferences Please open with clean cookies and not being logged in
07:47 < gleki> _mukti_: what if i try adding the flags/names of languages above the News but in the same div floating to the right?
07:48 < _mukti_> Ah, that's a little better
07:48 < gleki> oh my. we need to disable Metrolook for mobile.
07:49 < _mukti_> I prefer Ilmen's idea: Show a single flag for the currently enabled language. Clicking on it navigates to an expanded view of all of your options.
07:49 < selpahi> coi
07:49 < _mukti_> coi la selpa'i
07:50 < _mukti_> We're busy destroying all of gleki's hard work on the web site. :)
07:50 < durka42> coi
07:50 < mensi> durka42: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: I dont like jei in slilu3 because it's basically xokauva'e but without the ability to
07:50 < mensi> put {kau} to specific parts of a clause | 2015-05-16T07:57:31.865Z
07:50 < selpahi> I think everyone has some good points
07:50 < gleki> _mukti_: i dont think this will work. What flag will it be then? The default Mediawiki "change language'?
07:50 < selpahi> Brw, didn't we used to have this skin here as well: http://foreground.thingelstad.com/wiki/Main_Page ?
07:51 < _mukti_> Yes, I like that skin!
07:51 < gleki> _mukti_: do you have access to the LMW server atm?
07:51 < selpahi> And maybe this one with a different color http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Erudite#/media/File:Erudite_skin.png
07:51 < _mukti_> That's also nice.
07:51 < selpahi> (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Erudite)
07:51 < _mukti_> gleki: Yes
07:52 < gleki> _mukti_: please change in LocalSettings.php "$wgMetrolookMobile = true;" to "$wgMetrolookMobile = false;"
07:53 < gleki> _mukti_: oops, sorry, this string just doesnt exost. Then just add it
07:53 < _mukti_> ah, yeah, I wasn't seeing it
07:53 < gleki> _mukti_: somewhere at line 160
07:53 < gleki> or even line 169
07:57 < _mukti_> Done. Do you see a difference, or do we need to bounce the php process?
07:57 < gleki> So back to the experimental front page for English. No one likes it here, right? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
07:57 < selpahi> The Erudite skin is supposed to scale well to any device.
07:57 < gleki> _mukti_: let me try. i never did that on vrici
07:57 < selpahi> Right now the wiki looks bad on my phone
07:59 < _mukti_> Yes, I think that gives undue space. Consider that any one person is only likely to use one of those flags.
08:00 < _mukti_> Also, the graphical content of the flags is not especially useful. What does English have to do with a blue flag?
08:00 < gleki> _mukti_: probably again caching. i can see the today's page on my mobile but not the latest one
08:00 < gleki> _mukti_: as for flags i'll be working on that and will inform you of the changes in the test front page.
08:01 < _mukti_> Perhaps one path to compromise: Keep the flags that mean something, click through to see all of the choices.
08:01 < gleki> _mukti_: btw as for JVS we need a description of proposed changes to the database that should be backward compatible and not disrupting the work of JVS 1.0
08:02 < gleki> _mukti_: no, will just make smaller buttons using pure CSS and html. this will also increase the speed of the page
08:02 < _mukti_> gleki: I agree that the data model needs replacing. Probably would be smoothest to change the software first though. Unless somebody has appetite for rewriting the perl implementation!
08:02 < durka42> nooooope :)
08:02 < _mukti_> haha
08:03 < gleki> _mukti_: as a said i dont mind perl or whatever. i just need API access to this sql db.
08:03 < _mukti_> Well, I mind perl!
08:03 < gleki> _mukti_: how is it relevant to API access?
08:04 < _mukti_> gleki: If the db schema is change, it will be necessary to update jbovlaste and jiten, which are written in Perl.
08:04 < _mukti_> OTOH, if an API is written for the current schema, that's not necessary.
08:05 < gleki> _mukti_: i think we just need more tables in it or more columns for existing tables. i dont want to change the db so that JVS 1.0 can no longer use it. I need additions, not breaking changes.
08:06 < _mukti_> So, I must go for now... but regarding the top of the page: It is very important to me that there is some dynamic content at the top of the page which doesn't require scrolling.
08:07 < durka42> I think it'd be better to define a new data model, without cruft and with all the tables we need, and then be able to go back and forth (obviously losing information when going from the new model back to JVS1)
08:07 < _mukti_> Someone coming to the page should immediately know that the next time they visit the page, there will be different content.
08:07 < gleki> _mukti_: if you dont like th current page inform me. let's not change it without discussinfg first.
08:07 < durka42> so then JVS2 can be developed independently
08:07 < durka42> this is probably not the time to discuss though :)
08:08 < _mukti_> The current page, since it includes news, satisfies my requirement.
08:09 < gleki> _mukti_: as for auto-generated content we need to think what tools we can use. Wikipedia changes the front page manually. including the news.
08:09 < _mukti_> There's a lot more news to add, too. muplis should be there. As should guskant's new song. Probably other things, too. I've been meaning to get news back online for more than a month.
08:10 < gleki> _mukti_: and a more important aspect is that they should be written in Lojban with translations to other languages using Translate Extension or manually
08:11  * durka42 volunteers to help with that
08:14 < gleki> durka42: you may propose your own additions to the sql db. But I'd like them to be not breaking JVS 1.0 so that the transition period is not necessary
08:14 < _mukti_> I don't think we should model on Wikipedia since we're not trying to be an encyclopedia. We just happen to use their software.
08:14 < durka42> gleki: ie
08:15 < gleki> For example, since the current hierarchy is definition => language => word
08:15 < _mukti_> I think it might be possible to make some additions to the database to satisfy what gleki needs in the short term while we contemplate a better design for the jvs2 schema.
08:16 < gleki> and my proposal is definition => language => meaning => word
08:16 < Zyxl> I do however think that there should be some sort of 404 page or something like Wikipedia has. At the moment it looks like a non-existent page does exist but has no content.
08:16 < gleki> the non breaking addition is just to say that all current definitions of the same word belong to different meanings of it.
08:17 < gleki> Tags are of course non breaking since it's just a new column and JVS 1.0 will just ignore it.
08:17 < durka42> right
08:17 < gleki> I dont want people to see a message "JVS 1.0 is gone. Wait for JVS 2.0 to arrive in 20 years"
08:18 < Zyxl> Also, there seems to be the default Apache page not found message for the root directory: http://mw.lojban.org/piug
08:19 < gleki> _mukti_: ping ^. This is not a question to me for sure
08:21 < gleki> Hm, I am out of ideas how names of languages should look like: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
08:21 < gleki> Will at least this amount of space be small enough?
08:21 < gleki> for you
08:22 < gleki> Because I want to make space between button bigger
08:22 < gleki> Because I want to make spaces between buttons bigger
08:23 < Zyxl> You do realise they don't have links now?
08:26 < _mukti_> de'a
08:29 < Zyxl> I think the languages bit should be automatically kept consistent with its layout on other pages such as http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban and its position should be the same also.
08:43 < gleki> That's another question, yes
09:17 < Ilmen> coi jbopli ju jboplise
09:25 < gleki> coi mi'e mupli ju muplis
09:25 < selpahi> me la mu plise
09:27 < selpahi> .i mi ba zi kaikla lo ka kelci la klaji damba
09:27 < Ilmen> coi ketco jecra'umrasisku
09:27 < selpahi> .i ku'i si'au so'u da ba kansa
09:27 < durka42> coi
09:28 < selpahi> coi marji be lo rectu
09:28 < durka42> mi co'a cilre fi lo dotco la .duuolingos.
09:28 < Ilmen> je'e klaji damba .i ko'oi la danre do kansa
09:28 < selpahi> .oi dai zo'o
09:28 < durka42> .u'i
09:28 < durka42> mi dotco litru ba zi lo masti be li re
09:28 < selpahi> ua nai la danre cu mo
09:29 < Ilmen> la me'oi force
09:29 < selpahi> .oi
09:29 < selpahi> malco'e
09:29 < selpahi> ua doi la .urka
09:29 < durka42> .ai mi ka'e cusku mu'a lo se du'u bu'u ma lumku'a je lo se du'u mikce nitcu
09:30 < durka42> mi ba zvati la .frankfiut. je la .tubinjn.
09:30 < Ilmen> mi ji'a co'a dotybau clire
09:30 < durka42> docto clira xu
09:30 < selpahi> la'a tubinyn
09:30 < selpahi> zo cilre li'a
09:30 < durka42> zo .tUbinyn. xu
09:30 < Ilmen> cilre
09:30 < Ilmen> .u'u
09:30 < durka42> me'o gy mo
09:30 < selpahi> ng = [ŋ]
09:31 < durka42> mi ba'o cilre zo'oi Mann je zo'oi Frau je zo'oi Junge .i me'o gy na se vasru
09:31 < selpahi> [ŋ] -> {n}
09:31 < durka42> je'e
09:31 < durka42> ua me'o gy ja'a se vasru
09:31 < durka42> zo'oi Junge je zo'oi Tubingen cu bacru simsysi'u iepei
09:31 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
09:31 < selpahi> Junge -> 'jʊ.ŋə
09:32 < Ilmen> mi tcidu jo'u tinju'i lo dotybau panra pe la .xaripotr. noi cukta
09:32 < selpahi> .i'e
09:32 < durka42> mi tirna zo'oi 'jʊ.ŋgə
09:32 < durka42> ku'i la'a bebna
09:33 < durka42> ua
09:33 < durka42> la .wikcynaris. zo'u do drani
09:33 < selpahi> ue zo'o mi drani xusra lo srana be lo mi jbebau
09:34 < selpahi> jbo:jbebau
09:34 < mensi> jbebau [< jbena bangu ≈ Jbena* bangu*] = x1 bangu gi'e poi'i su'o da co'a lo nu x2 jbena cu tavla x2 zi'o
09:34 < mensi> ke'a
09:34 < selpahi> ki'u ma katna lo vlali'i
09:35 < selpahi> .i ju'o zo ke'a ka'e pagbu lo pa moi
09:35 < Ilmen> ze'a lo nu lo drata cu jbedau zo'u zukte lo jbemau #nonselsmu
09:35 < selpahi> mi zmadu do lo ka jbena
09:35 < selpahi> jo'a nai
09:36 < durka42> mi na senpi tu'a do .i mi senpi milxe lo snavei pe D
09:36 < selpahi> ko ru'i senpi ro bangu srana
09:37 < selpahi> .i ku'i ko na milxe lo snavei
09:37 < Ilmen> xagmau fa lo nu karbi lo selba'u be za'u selbau
09:38 < selpahi> ie pei lo dotco tcitigi pe lo cukta cu banli
09:38 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
09:38 < Ilmen> ieie
09:38 < selpahi> .i certu sai lo ka voksa co'e
09:38 < selpahi> .i lo rusko cu mabla
09:38 < Ilmen> .u'i
09:38 < selpahi> .i lo fraso cu na'e mabla
09:39 < durka42> lu ko na milxe lo snavei li'u se steci lo ka tanru fatne javni nabmi
09:39 < selpahi> .i lo fraso cu je'a troci lo ka banli
09:39 < selpahi> .i lo rusko cu simlu lo ka na troci
09:39 < durka42> lu senpi milxe li'u frica zo senpymli .i fanza .iku'i zo co co'e ro da
09:39 < selpahi> .i ca no da cu djuno lo du'u ma kau poi xarpre ca'o tavla
09:41 < Ilmen> lu ko na troci .i ko zukte li'u voi la .ĭodas. cu cusku
09:42 < selpahi> .u'i .i lo rusko tcitigi cu troci najenai zukte
09:43 < durka42> ko gonai zukte gi na zukte .i troci na'i
09:43 < durka42> xm
09:43 < durka42> da ko'oi jei do zukte
09:44 < selpahi> li no ka'e go'i
09:44 < selpahi> .i na natfe
09:44 < Ilmen> ie
09:44 < Ilmen> ro da zo'u su'o de jei da fasnu
09:44 < durka42> .aidji
09:45 < durka42> mi zukte .i li pa jei mi zukte .i mi na zukte .i li no jei mi zukte
09:45 < durka42> xu bebna
09:45 < Ilmen> .e'u lu ko'oi li pi su'o jei do zukte li'u
09:45 < durka42> la .iodas. na cusku ri
09:46 < Ilmen> ie la .iodas. na cusku vo'a
09:46 < selpahi> ie .u'i
09:46 < durka42> oi
09:46 < durka42> la iodas .e'usku lo sedu'u gonai zukte gi na zukte
09:46 < durka42> cu
09:47 < Ilmen> go zukte gi zukte
09:47 < Ilmen> sezni'i ie nai pei
09:47 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
09:47 < selpahi> ko na ja ja'a zukte
09:47 < durka42> camxes: ja'a ja na
09:47 < camxes> ([ja'a ja] na)
09:47 < durka42> ua
09:47 < selpahi> .y
09:47 < durka42> camxes: ko ja'a ja na zukte
09:47 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "z" found.
09:48 < durka42> y
09:48 < durka42> camxes: +exp ko ja'a ja na zukte
09:48 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "z" found.
09:48 < Ilmen> camxes: ko ja'a ja na ku zukte
09:48 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "z" found.
09:48 < selpahi> ja'a ja = na je
09:48 < durka42> oi go'i
09:48 < durka42> camxes: +exp ko ja'aku ja naku zukte
09:48 < camxes> ([ko {ja'a ku} {ja <na ku>}] [CU {zukte VAU}])
09:48 < selpahi> jo'a
09:48 < durka42> zukte jo'a .i troci na'i
09:57 < Ilmen> ca lo cabdei mi viska lo pulbanfi
09:58 < Ilmen> .i ta'o ŭi la .junpen. pu spuda lo mi selmri
09:59 < Ilmen> .i faumlu fa lo nu lo mritci sazycimde pe la .junpen. cu te bangu fi la .sfenskas.
09:59 < Ilmen> i'e
09:59 < niftg> pulbanfi ki'a
10:00 < Ilmen> coi la .niftyg. ŭe
10:00 < Ilmen> en: pulbanfi
10:00 < mensi> pulbanfi [< punli banfi ≈ Swelling amphibian] = b1=p2 is toad of species b2 |>>> see also pipybanfi |>>>
10:00 < mensi> gejyspa
10:00 < niftg> coi ru'e puza vokta'a
10:00 < Ilmen> ひきがえる
10:00 < Ilmen> va'i がま
10:01 < Ilmen> ja: pulbanfi
10:01 < niftg> .ua .i lo pulbanfi na ta'e plipe vau xu
10:01 < mensi> [< punli banfi ≈ Punli* banfi*] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
10:01 < mensi> pulbanfi[7937], punlybanfi[10067]
10:01 < selpahi> lo si'o danlu lujvo cu nabmi sidbo
10:02 < Ilmen> .i ka'e tilju plipe pe'i .i ku'i lo pulbanfi poi mi viska cu plana .i la'a na ka'e darno plipe .u'i
10:02 < niftg> .i ju'o ru'e lo ka plipe zo'u na steci
10:05 < Ilmen> vi ze'a sudga tcima .i ku'i ca lo prulamvanci cu carvi toltce xoi banzu la'a lo pulbanfi cu zdani cliva
10:05 < gleki> what about now? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
10:05 < Ilmen> *lonu
10:05 < selpahi> na mabla doi gy.
10:07 < Ilmen> ie zabna banzuni .i ku'i ka'e se xagzengau ju'o
10:08 < Ilmen> xu lo nuzba notci cu cmecau
10:08 < Ilmen> .i ka'e ku jarco lo cmene to mu'a jufra pavmei toi jo'u lo tcila judri
10:09 < Ilmen> .i sidbo po'o
10:10 < selpahi> mi co'a klama
10:10 < Ilmen> ni'o ki'e ralju papri xagzengau
10:10 < Ilmen> co'o kaikla be lo .a'o zabna
10:10 < selpahi> doi la .ilmen. do sanji xu la .8tcan. ?
10:10 < selpahi> .a'o zabna ie
10:10 < Ilmen> .i na sanji
10:10 < selpahi> .i .a'o na ku mi po'o klama
10:11 < selpahi> simsa la .jbotcan.
10:11 < selpahi> https://8ch.net/jbo/
10:11 < selpahi> ju'o cu'i zdile do (to co'o toi)
10:11 < Ilmen> je'e
10:11 < Ilmen> co'o
10:14 < durka42> zo po co'a srana la .cekitaujaus. xu
10:15 < durka42> ua zo po co'a srana lo'u lo nu le'u
10:15 < durka42> .u'i xunai lo laldo loglo pu pilno zoi zoi le po zoi
10:28 < gleki> Still too much text
10:28 < _mukti_> Oh, I don't know, I like it.
10:30 < _mukti_> You could float the lojban flag to the right of the welcome text, if you want to break things up a bit.
10:31 < _mukti_> I'm going to propose that we revise the brocure language -- what follows "A short introduction to Lojban"
10:31 < _mukti_> I think some of the assertions in that section are out of step with contemporary thinking
10:34 < gleki> Yes, I should add the flag.
10:34 < gleki> Should it be clickable?
10:34 < gleki> If yes then to what page?
10:35 < Zyxl> Why can't language go on the left pane since there's loads of space there? Are there plans for something else there? I think it should be collapsable unlike on Wikipedia.
10:35 < _mukti_> Zxyl: I could get behind that
10:35 < _mukti_> I like the idea of keeping the nav elements together.
10:35 < gleki> It's collapsible in Metrolook mobile but i think in that version they didnt fully implement that.
10:36 < gleki> If we update MediaWiki and all extensions and skins to the latest version then maybe Metrolook will behave better even in mobile version
10:37 < gleki> So ... shall we move the languages to the left sidebar? If yes should they change the interface language only or additionally go the the front page?
10:42 < Zyxl> If it were expandable/collapsible, we can't just title it "Languages", we would also need an icon.
10:43 < gleki> im against any additional clicks, i.e. steps.
10:44 < gleki> everything should be available within the minimum amount of sequential clicks
10:44 < Zyxl> Yeah, that's feasible given the number of languages we have.
10:44 < Zyxl> I was just thinking that other things might get put in the left pane.
10:45 < gleki> If you want an expandable list of languages then how are you going to collapse it? Where to store this collapsed state? In cookies?
10:46 < Zyxl> It will be in HTML but hidden by CSS.
10:46 < gleki> where to store the state of the collapsed list?
10:47 < gleki> should each link be a link to the front page?
10:47 < Zyxl> You mean between pages?
10:47 < gleki> Currently each language link moves you to the front page
10:49 < Zyxl> Maybe it should reload the current page in the new language?
10:49 < Zyxl> I don't see what that has to do with storing the state of the list.
10:49 < gleki> those are separate questions
10:50 < gleki> and the third is should the flag be clickable
10:51 < Zyxl> I'm not sure where the flag is or what its purpose is supposed to be.
10:51 < gleki> _mukti_: as for brochure language i tried to change it but then cntr and ultimately Quzzy wrote what it has now.
10:52 < gleki> _mukti_: personally i wrote something like http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Lojban&setlang=es
10:53 < gleki> _mukti_: and i'd prefer making this section at least two times smaller
10:56 < _mukti_> You wrote in Spanish?
10:58 < gleki> No, I mean the meaning
10:58 < gleki> I forgot where is the english original
10:58 < _mukti_> I'm surprised that cntr had a hand in the language, given the severity of his recent criticisms. (I though some of his critiques are valid, but am surprised if he was critiquing his own phrasing.)
10:59 < gleki> that was before that criticism
11:00 < _mukti_> Right, so if he modified the language, and then criticized, I guess he must not have been content with the scope of his changes, but wanted to go further?
11:00 < gleki> what are you talking about? he modified just that part of the front page
11:01 < _mukti_> I'm just saying, I remember him taking issue with some of the brochure language. If he edited it beforehand, I guess he must have felt his edits didn't go far enough.
11:02 < gleki> he edited only the front page, not the brochure
11:03 < gleki> Btw, since people still use Level0 we need to republish it. Any volunteers to reformat it into latex/docbook?
11:04 < _mukti_> Perhaps inaccurately, I'm referring to the language in that section as the "brochure language", since it seems superficially similar to the language in the brochure -- I admit I haven't made a detailed comparison
11:04 < gleki> Just write a better one. that's all i can suggest
11:05 < gleki> So shall i move the language links to the left sidebar?
11:05 < _mukti_> I may do that. Make an edit and send it to the mriste for consideration.
11:05 < _mukti_> It sounds like that would work, re: the languages
11:06 < gleki> It's in Mediawiki:Mlana
11:06 < gleki> warning: a lot of parsing expressions there
11:10 < _mukti_> Question, gleki. Why are you using postfix expressions (e.g. "/en") for language specific pages rather than the mediawiki convention of namespaces (e.g. "en:")
11:11 < gleki> "en:" is an interwiki link. We have only one wiki.
11:11 < gleki> I'm using a normal convention that {{int:}} uses to chooce a string from a language needed
11:11 < gleki> *choose
11:12 < _mukti_> "en:" may be configured as an interwiki link, but the namespace mechanism is flexible.
11:12 < gleki> I don't see why we need that.
11:12 < gleki> You may change of course.
11:12 < _mukti_> It's just odd to go to a page with a name "broda/en"
11:12 < _mukti_> It's not semantic
11:13 < gleki> Oh, but that's how Translate Extension works
11:13 < _mukti_> I wonder if it can be configured to be a little less intrusive
11:13 < gleki> E.g. these are done automatically http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sepulka
11:13 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sepulka/en
11:13 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/sepulka/ru
11:14 < gleki> the first link is in Lojban since it's the default LMW language
11:15 < _mukti_> Ah, ok. Well I have no objection to making lojban the main language. Perhaps we'll catch up with that idea.
11:15 < selpahi> jbo.lojban.org/papri won't work?
11:15 < selpahi> jp.lojban.org/papri etc
11:16 < gleki> Ideally we should rewrite all pages in Simplified Lojban and machine translators will convert it all to controlled natlangs.
11:20 < selpahi> And it's also not unthinkable (pe'i) that lojban.org could contain things other than the wiki in the future, so lojban.org/uitki/ would contain the wiki,  and lojban.org/AmazingInteractiveLearningTool20XX would just be some fancy non-wiki based thing.
11:20 < selpahi> Anyway, right now everyone who uses the wiki is a learner of lojban, so it's natural that most pages aren't in Lojban
11:21 < gleki> _mukti_: so what are the actions (yours and mine) for getting API for JVS 1.0 and thinking of additions to the db to develop JVS 2.0?
11:21 < selpahi> It's not  primarily a place for native or fluent speakers, since those don't exist yet.
11:22 < _mukti_> selpahi: I think those are good ideas. I'd like (with Robin's blessing) to reconfigure the server so that it doesn't automatically redirect to mw.lojban.org as a start
11:23 < _mukti_> That's going to require some special configuration to preserve some old urls
11:23 < selpahi> I hope multiple people have a backup of the tiki
11:24 < _mukti_> gleki: It's just a matter of budgeting time, I think. I can tell you that my own immediate priorities, now that I filed the annual paperwork for LLG with the IRS, is to get the meeting minutes published. Working on the news this morning is actually a warm up for that.
11:25 < _mukti_> Anyone else who has time should definitely feel free to work on that -- I don't have to be involved!
11:26 < _mukti_> selpahi: That's a good thought. We should distribute a dump of the database perhaps.
11:26 < gleki> I asked Robin to change to lojban.org from mw.lojban.org. He said no
11:26 < gleki> as for redirects lojban.org/papri/sepulka redirects correctly
11:26 < gleki> as well as old tiki links
11:30 < Zyxl> Surely the language of the page content and interface should be the same?
11:30 < gleki> should but pragmatically impossible
11:31 < Zyxl> Why?
11:31 < gleki> who will translate 2000 pages to their native language
11:33 < Zyxl> Oh, they already do match if the page exists in that language? Otherwise it shows it in English or Lojban?
11:33 < gleki> if you dont use Translate etension you can never tell in what langage the page is
11:35  * nuzba @kaleidic: I just learned about lojban's sumti place tags. It was a breakthrough experience. Suddenly the language is genuinely interesting to me. [http://bit.ly/1B3TOYa]
11:36 < Zyxl> I can't get the translate extensions to work :/
11:37 < gleki> Add <translate> ... </translate> to any page. Oh well, probably an admin should aprrove of such page after that
11:38 < _mukti_> gleki: So what would you think of renaming the main page, so that we can use the name of the "lojban" page for an article about lojban?
11:38 < gleki> _mukti_: la guskant directly asked me to rename that page to "Lojban" for SEO
11:39 < gleki> So please ask in mriste first
11:39 < gleki> before her request it wass called "ralju papri"
11:39 < _mukti_> I'll do that.
11:40 < _mukti_> I note that one of my concerns about the translation suffixes is the affect on search engine indexing.
11:40 < gleki> And the wiki was called "le uitki". By her request i renamed it to "Lojban"
11:40 < _mukti_> I think that's a good change -- the rename. Now that it's the main web site.
11:47 < gocti> lo cabna versiio be la'oi Welcome!0/en zo'u pei
11:47 < gocti> .i va'i xu xagmau la'oi Welcome!/en
11:52 < _mukti_> I'm not nuts about the way that it almost pushes news off the page in favor of the lojban symbol and the list of language links.
11:52 < _mukti_> Ideally, I'd like to see nav on the left side (which is half empty) and save the right side for content.
11:53 < _mukti_> Like, I'd like to see some of the dynamic feeds that tiki had ... updates in twitter, reddit, and the google groups, etc.
11:53 < _mukti_> That said, it's a positive step vis-a-vis the flag-heavy layout we started with this morning.
11:55 < _mukti_> I wonder, too, if we cant word "based around the rules of predicate logic" better.
11:55 < _mukti_> Particularly if we're going to highlight it.
11:56 < _mukti_> "Based around the rules" is odd.
11:56 < _mukti_> "inspired by" ?
11:56 < gocti> Maybe just "Lojban is an experiment in human language" as the header
11:57 < Zyxl> "Lojban is this really obscure language you've probably never heard of..."
11:57 < gocti> :^)
11:57 < _mukti_> gocti: That's not bad. Although I think some mention of predicate logic and constructed language should probably follow.
11:58 < _mukti_> Zxyl: Hipsters 4 lojban?
11:58 < Zyxl> Yarp.
11:58 < selpahi> Lojban - A hypothetical design for a logical human language ... wait no.
11:59 < _mukti_> "I used to be really into lojban. And then it was like, suddenly everybody liked lojban. And I was like, who are you people? I don't really do lojban any more. I'm working on my own conlang."
12:00 < _mukti_> (Problems I'd like to have.)
12:00 < Zyxl> And then I was like "It's just a bridge."
12:01 < Zyxl> Maybe we should mention the Sapir-whorf hypothesis? But people won't know what that is.
12:02 < _mukti_> I wouldn't mind if SW doesn't come up right away. Seems to turn off a fair number of people when over-emphasized.
12:02 < _mukti_> (Not that it should be disowned! It's an important part of the history. Just need not be top-billed.)
12:03 < gocti> "defined using predicate logic"? Hard to come up with something that isn't false in some aspect
12:03 < selpahi> "Vaguely related to predicate logic"
12:03 < gocti> ^
12:03 < Zyxl> How about briefly mentioning how it was collaboratively developed?
12:03 < _mukti_> "aspires to be a speakable predicate logic" ?
12:04 < selpahi> See http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lojban&no_bl=y for the old front page text
12:05 < Zyxl> "Designed with the potential to be an international auxiliary language."
12:05 < gocti> Anyone strongly attached to the second sentence about LLG?
12:06 < gocti> It looks a little out of place, though I don't know where else it can go
12:06 < Zyxl> You mean "been built over five decades by dozens of workers and hundreds of supporters."? Yeah, I like that.
12:07 < _mukti_> Yes, I think it's important that the web site identify its affiliation with LLG up top.
12:07 < selpahi> Yeah. The old page had a nice tone to it
12:07 < gocti> "This website is dedicated to documenting..."
12:08 < gocti> je'e
12:08 < _mukti_> Although maybe it would be worth considering not making this the www.lojban.org homepage.
12:08 < _mukti_> (Especially since it redirects to mw.lojban.org.)
12:08 < selpahi> Yes, I've said this more than once. Problem is, designing a nice front page is hard
12:08 < _mukti_> In which case, it would not be burdened in that way.
12:09 < selpahi> I mean, the front page needn't be a wiki page at all.
12:09 < _mukti_> Right.
12:09 < _mukti_> Perhaps trying to make this a front page for lojban.org and the main hub for the wiki is too much.
12:14 < Zyxl> You think the wiki should be a separate domain? A subdirectory? A separate server with the same top-level domain? Accessed through the front page (the one page outside of the wiki)?
12:15 < Zyxl> I thought we were limited to keeping the basic structure as it was.
12:16 < selpahi> I think we're only limited by how much work we are willing to put in.
12:16 < _mukti_> I don't see any technical reason we couldn't have a front page separate from the wiki.
12:20 < Zyxl> My immediate thoughts on a one-off page for the front page are poor accessibility and confusion for users, but almost anything can work if done right (no matter how unconventional).
12:23 < _mukti_> Zyxl: Perhaps you are right and it would be more trouble than it is worth.
12:24 < zipcpi> lo jmifa curnu
12:24 < zipcpi> jmive - curnu
12:24 < zipcpi> ifle fa lo nu ti mrobi’o kei, lo nu ko finti pa lo pe li 3pi’e3 blamakfa ke finpe ke jmive kelspi poi ponse la’e lu «ifle fa lo nu ti mrobi’o kei, lo nu ko finti pa lo pe li 6pi’e6 blamakfa ke balnema ke jmive kelspi poi ponse la’e lu «ifle fa lo nu ti mrobi’o kei, lo nu ko finti pa lo pe li 9pi’e9 blamakfa ke krakeni ke jmive kelspi» li’u» li’u
12:26 < gocti> mo
12:27 < zipcpi> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389652
12:27 < gocti> ua
12:33 < gleki> _mukti_: there are important drawbacks in using a front page separate from mediawiki. Like its multilinguality. Who will support GeoIP/browser language detection? It's all currently done by MW
12:33 < gleki> So it's not like one can write a static html page in several minutes and everyone will be happy.
12:33 < _mukti_> Indeed
12:34 < gleki> If you don't like e.g. the top bar I can remove it only for the front page.
12:34 < gleki> The only disadvantage is that this page may be a bit heavy since a lot of css and js is loaded
12:35 < zipcpi> By the way that sentence almost broke my computer when I tried to parse it <.<
12:35 < gleki> exp:  ifle fa lo nu ti mrobi’o kei, lo nu ko finti pa lo pe li 3pi’e3
12:35 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [uU] or [yY] but "i" found.
12:35 < gleki> exp:  ifle fa lo nu ti mrobi’o kei, lo nu ko finti pa lo pe li 3pi’e3 blamakfa ke finpe ke jmive kelspi 
12:35 < mensi> (CU [ifle {fa <lo (¹nu [ti {CU <mrobi'o VAU>}] kei¹) KU>} {lo <nu (¹ko [CU {finti <pa BOI> <lo (²pe [li {<ci (³pi'e ci³)> BOI} LOhO] GEhU²) (²blamakfa [ke {finpe <ke (³jmive kelspi³) KEhE>}
12:35 < mensi> KEhE]²)> KU} VAU]¹) KEI> KU}] VAU)
12:36 < gocti> (small suggestion, disable wikEd for the default user, since they can't edit pages anyway)
12:36 < gleki> _mukti_: so if you have any problems with adding language to the sidebar pls let me know
12:36 < gleki> gocti: you mean anonymous user? if you know how to do that then re'i
12:37 < gocti> ge go'e gi nai go'i
12:37 < gleki> I think I disabled only the button for anonymous users and only for the front page
12:37 < _mukti_> gleki: It looks like progress.
12:39 < gleki> And indeed remove those references to auxlangs, SW, cultural neutrality. It's all from another epoch. None of that proved tobe a fruitful concept.
12:39 < gleki> those are all questions that can only be answered {na'i}
12:40 < zipcpi> ie
12:40 < gleki> It's like when alchemists wanted gold but by chance created the science of chemistry.
12:41 < gleki> I think the paragraph about LLG can be moved somewhere to the footer.
12:42 < gleki> I have something relevant at the bottom of this page: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lo_Lojbo_Nuzba
12:42 < gleki> As well as information of the license of the website can be provided.
12:42 < gleki> In short the front page is overloaded with text information
12:43 < _mukti_> Which paragraph about LLG do you mean?
12:43 < gleki> The second paragpraph of the front page.
12:43 < gleki> And the first paragraph says absolutely nothing to me. What is predicate logic?
12:43 < _mukti_> You mean at the top, "serves as the official web site" ?
12:43 < gleki> Seriously I'm here for so many years. I still dont know what it is.
12:44 < gleki> _mukti_: yes, move that to the footer.
12:44 < zipcpi> predicate = bridi
12:44 < gleki> It would look more logical.
12:44 < _mukti_> [[predicate logic]] is a great candidate for linking
12:44 < zipcpi> predicates accept arguments just like bridi accept sumti
12:44 < _mukti_> I strongly think the web site should identify it's affiliation with LLG up top.
12:44 < _mukti_> lojban.org is LLG's domain, and it's silly that someone should have to dig to learn that.
12:45 < gleki> _mukti_: for whom? who knows about LLG?
12:45 < gleki> Who is interested in LLG/ Kill it and no one will notice.
12:45 < _mukti_> Nobody, if we bury the fact of its existence!
12:45 < gleki> I dont mind if you do this.
12:45 < gleki> Lojban, not LLG is our tresure.
12:45 < gleki> *treasure
12:46 < gleki> The first sentences should make people want to learn Lojban.
12:46 < _mukti_> Lojban is indeed the community's treasure, but this is LLG's web site.
12:46 < gleki> LLG is our own problems. Let's keep them to ourselves.
12:46 < gleki> Then for whom is this website? For LLG? Then it's its own property? Then why promote it for the rest of humanity?
12:46 < zipcpi> Yeah this is why I skipped the "goals of Lojban" section in that draft... even though I want to put it first
12:47 < gleki> No one needs LLG and no one will need it.
12:47 < _mukti_> Those are very strange things for someone who sits on the Board of Directors of an organization to say.
12:47 < zipcpi> I'll probably put stuff about syntactic and semantic rigor there... but drop the SW/auxlang/cultural stuff
12:47 < gleki> _mukti_: usually licensing information is given at the botoom via a link, mukti
12:48 < _mukti_> I'm not concerned with licensing information, it can go at the bottom.
12:48 < gleki> _mukti_: I like Lojban. LLG is just a tool for developing Lojban but not itself.
12:48 < gleki> I m irrelevant to how LLG functions. If it functions.
12:48 < _mukti_> But LLG has no other website than this one. Lojban can have as many web sites as people care to erect.
12:49 < gleki> Here is my plan: Lojban in 3-4 paragraphs, Links to main textbooks, How to contact community, Wat's next. All secondary information goes to "Read more" links.
12:49 < gleki> _mukti_: then I stongly suggest that we create a second website for LLG. Let's not mix the two entities.
12:50 < _mukti_> I think that's ludicrous.
12:50 < gleki> And that website can be completely in English, the only language that LLG can use.
12:50 < _mukti_> You would not have a lojban.org or a server that hosts it without LLG.
12:50 < _mukti_> For that matter, you probably wouldn't have lojban.
12:50 < zipcpi> Maybe I'll just go hide in a corner <.<
12:51 < _mukti_> Whether you care about LLG or not, this is its web site. Perhaps you would like for LLG to donate the domain to some other organization?
12:51 < gleki> _mukti_: so what? If there hadn't been Plato Lojban wouldnt have appeared. This is equally true.
12:52 < gocti> gleki: .e'u na tolmo'i lo du'u ba'e do ba'e du ba'u ru'e LLG
12:52 < gleki> gocti: mi morji i ku'i mi na djica lo nu ro lo se ciska cu srana LLG
12:53 < gleki> "Lojban means different things to different people:
12:53 < gleki> "
12:53 < gleki> This part should be merged with "A short introduction to Lojban"
12:54 < gleki> Strange but la selkik was right about LLG.
12:54 < zipcpi> la selkik du la selpa'i i'au xu
12:55 < gleki> na
12:55 < gleki> i la selckiku cu du la stela selckiku
12:55 < gleki> fi la selkik
12:55 < gleki> i pu xebni LLG
12:55 < gleki> i mi xebni na'i
12:55 < Zyxl> I think the reasons for learning Lojban should be above learning resources; we need to convince people to learn before we tell them where to learn.
12:56 < gleki> yes
12:56 < Zyxl> By 'reasons' I mean the 'What's next' section (needs renaming).
12:57 < PrincessBecca> i think if people are on the lojban webpage then they are already interested in learning lojban
12:57 < selpahi> A list of all the cool things Lojban can do
12:57 < selpahi> Yeah that's also often true
12:58 < selpahi> What's important is a strong web presence, people have to be talking about Lojban
12:58 < PrincessBecca> if they're just trying to find out more then they're probably reading wikipedia (whether directly or through search engines)
12:58 < selpahi> When they hear "made up language", they have to think of Lojban, not just Esperanto
12:58 < _mukti_> I think that's doable
12:58 < Zyxl> This page is where I would go if I heard of Lojban and wanted to know what it was, not just if I wanted to learn it.
12:59 < PrincessBecca> interestingly, the other day i was in a transgender chatroom talking about esperanto, and i happened to mention that there were other constructed languages besides esperanto, and someone said "lojban?"
12:59 < _mukti_> Nice
12:59 < zipcpi> (ta'o I would very much like to strongly discourage IPA [e] as a realization of the Lojban phoneme e. Too confusable for ei.)
12:59 < gleki> Lojban, Esperanto and Klingon are most known.
12:59 < gleki> Google Trends confirm that.
13:00 < _mukti_> zipcpi: What do you recommend?
13:00 < zipcpi> (That's why I left it out of my Modern Lojban Theory description)
13:00 < PrincessBecca> that's probably because it's hard to find out when people are searching for elvish
13:00 < zipcpi> doi mukti: [ɛ]
13:01 < zipcpi> It's the difference between r/a/re and r/e/d (depending on your dialect YMMV)
13:01 < Zyxl> A lot of people already know what Esperanto is, so they don't need to look it up.
13:01 < PrincessBecca> most people think they know what esperanto is, and then are very surprised when they actually look it up.
13:01 < Zyxl> Yes.
13:01 < PrincessBecca> people think it died decades ago
13:01 < gleki> The same for Lojban
13:02 < gleki> If people have heard of Lojban they know that it's for machines and not even speakable
13:02 < zipcpi> lol I didn't have high hopes when I tried to see what Lojban was like after all these years
13:02 < gleki> a failed experiment
13:02 < PrincessBecca> i had no preconceived notions about lojban when i first discovered it.
13:03 < selpahi> zipcpi: Were your expectations exceeded? :)
13:03 < gleki> doi cirko, very nice. Continue compressing info and making the content less watery. Language links can be removed.
13:03 < zipcpi> selpahi: Yes, though there's still a bit more drama than I would like :p
13:04 < selpahi> The drama decreases once people start discussing *in* Lojban, although there have been big in-language arguments
13:04 < gleki> I dont know why jbotcan isn't in the list of 3rd part websites. It's not hosted by Robin.
13:05 < zahlman> you're also aware of 8chan /jbo/, yes?
13:05 < zipcpi> Granted I probably did make a lot of faux pas. It's like, you know, who the heck is this guy coming back from his disappearance and writing up proposal after proposal
13:05 < gleki> "Works in progress" ... yeah, works... in plural.
13:05 < selpahi> .i'e doi la cirko
13:05 < gleki> xo'o
13:06 < gleki> zahlman: me? yes. the wiki? no.
13:06 < _mukti_> zipcpi: People coming out of nowhere and proposing huge reforms is something of a tradition, I think. ;)
13:06 < zipcpi> u'i
13:06 < gleki> zipcpi: without writing proposals you will probably never start speaking lojban
13:06 < gleki> children tend to break toys
13:06 < zipcpi> ie u'i
13:07 < Zyxl> I can't imagine getting to a point where I understanding Lojban without a lot of effort.
13:07 < selpahi> You can do it!
13:07 < Zyxl> .ui
13:08 < selpahi> It's a slight problem that https://8ch.net/jbo/ competes with jbotcan.org as both sites are in constant danger of dying.
13:09 < zipcpi> Wait the latter is a thing?
13:09 < selpahi> Yes
13:09 < gleki> gocti: mi ba vimcu so'o da i e'a do ca'onai zukte gie' setca lo pu se vimcu
13:09 < gocti> je'e
13:11  * nuzba @uitki: BPFK Members - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Members by Mukti - Transferred from tiki [http://bit.ly/1bWZH2A]
13:13 < zipcpi> Eh... a place where most people are anonymous makes it hard to actually socialize. I'm just spamming memes
13:14 < zipcpi> Indeed I was a little afraid of 8chan; still kinda am
13:14 < Zyxl> I thought the point of learning Lojban was so that we didn't have to socialise.
13:15 < zipcpi> u'i
13:16 < _mukti_> It does rather limit the options, as XKCD pointed out.
13:21 < zipcpi> selpahi: Still no idea what the letter-word for y should be, huh?
13:24 < selpahi> No.
13:24 < zipcpi> I have two suggestions: iy'y or y'y'y
13:24 < zipcpi> Not sure if they're any good though
13:26 < selpahi> I'd rather use {.y'y} and find something good for {'}
13:26 < zipcpi> Yeah the whole pattern-breaking thing is a bummer
13:27 < zipcpi> Makes me wonder whether I should be promoting the new letter-words yet
13:27 < selpahi> They're sort of semi-popular on IRC
13:28 < zipcpi> uaru'e je'e
13:28 < selpahi> How about {ctuka'u} for "Lesson" (as in "lesson 1, lesson 2, ..." ?
13:29 < selpahi> Whatever, I like it .u'i
13:29 < zipcpi> kantu is supposed to be "indivisible", pe'i?
13:29 < selpahi> Well, compare to kelka'u
13:29 < zipcpi> Right
13:32 < _mukti_> It does seem like {kantu} is the closest gismu to many non-physics uses of "atom", whereas {ratni} is not suitable.
13:33 < selpahi> The difficult distinction is between kantu and selci.
13:33 < selpahi> But I think we've gotten better at distinguishing them
13:33 < _mukti_> Hmm. Yes I see that.
13:33 < _mukti_> What's the current thinking?
13:34 < zipcpi> Hmm from a plain reading, I think...
13:34 < _mukti_> smallest measurable quantity versus an indivisible unit ?
13:35 < _mukti_> One emphasizing measurement, the other division?
13:35 < zipcpi> Also I think selci is more physical
13:35 < selpahi> It's hard to explain actually. I guess we're not *that* good at distinguishing them, but it's more of an intuition. There are also xorxes' lojban definitions.
13:35 < _mukti_> jbo: kantu
13:35 < mensi> kantu = x1 klani lo cmarai x2 |>>> klani; cmarai; selci |>>> xorxes
13:35 < _mukti_> jbo: selci
13:35 < zipcpi> Is xorxes still around?
13:35 < mensi> selci = x1 cmarai lo spisa be x2 be'o poi ckaji be lo se ckaji be x2 |>>> cmarai; spisa; ckaji |>>>
13:35 < mensi> xorxes
13:35 < selpahi> Yes, he is.
13:36 < Zyxl> "selci for masses and most objects"
13:36 < Zyxl> "kantu for properties, activities"
13:37 < zipcpi> x1 klani lo cmarai x2 Wait, how is x2 a scale-of-measurement?
13:37 < zipcpi> (Also dang Lojban for making me use more non-standard hyphens in English :p)
13:37 < selpahi> klani2 is a number.
13:38 < zipcpi> Which is "lo cmarai"
13:38 < selpahi> klani3 is the scale, in this case it's the property kantu2
13:38 < zipcpi> Hm
13:38 < zipcpi> Cause I'm thinking lo te klani is something like lo si'o kelvo
13:39 < selpahi> We don't know how scales work.
13:39 < selpahi> But si'o is not it, pe'i.
13:39 < selpahi> My proposal for scales involves bi'i.
13:44 < zipcpi> ei mi cliva .i co'o rodo
13:45 < selpahi> co'o do
14:20 < Ilmen> coi
14:21 < _mukti_> coi la .ilmen.
14:24 < selpahi> doi ro creka tanru djacu .i xu do kanpe lo nu zo ti'a jo'u zo ti'e bastysi'u ca su'o balvi
14:25 < selpahi> .i lo cabna cu cizra lo ctuca be lo jbobau .i ctuca ma .i mi se cizra lo ka ctuca fe mu'a zo ke'a
14:25 < Ilmen> zo ti'a ki'a
14:25 < selpahi> .i so'i drata ku ji'a mupli
14:26 < selpahi> .i zo ti'a zo'u sumtcita
14:26 < Ilmen> go'i .i se ni'i bo na slabu mi zo'o
14:26 < selpahi> .i ku'i zo ti'a ba'e zabna sumtcita .i lo selma'o be zo ti'a cu na'e mabla
14:27 < selpahi> .i ku'i zo ti'a fa'u zo ti'e se krasi zo trix*e* fa'u zo tirn*a* .i xu na cizra
14:27 < Ilmen> tolcafne fa lo nu mi pilno lo ka zvati kei sumtcita
14:27 < Ilmen> poi drata zo bu'u
14:27 < Ilmen> .e zo ne'i
14:28 < Ilmen> .e zo vi
14:28 < selpahi> (to lu ctuca fo li'u drani doi mi toi)
14:29 < selpahi> .i xu do kanpe lo nu CKTJ ba za ralju
14:29 < selpahi> .i xu do djica .i xu mi djica
14:29 < Ilmen> mi na ka'e tcidu fi lo menli be lo drata cmima be BPFK
14:29 < selpahi> ue ru'e .i xu do kanpe lo nu BPFK ka'e jdice
14:30 < selpahi> .i ie pei lo nu so'e jbopre cu pilno CKTJ cu .ei purci lo nu BPFK troci lo ka jdice su'o srana
14:30 < mensi> ei mi tugni
14:31 < _mukti_> .i la CKTJ cu mo
14:31 < selpahi> la .cekitaujois.
14:31 < _mukti_> ua
14:32 < selpahi> .i ro lo citno verba cu pilno zo'o
14:32 < _mukti_> .u'i
14:32 < _mukti_> ko cliva lo mi srasu doi citno
14:33 < Ilmen> BPFK cu jdice lo du'u ma kau se catni .i ku'i la'a mi na'e jimpe lo se cusku be do .i lo ka ralju lo ka se pilno be so'i da zo'u mi na djuno
14:33 < selpahi> ki'u ku mi pilno zo kanpe
14:33 < selpahi> .i na ka'e djuno
14:33 < Ilmen> .i za'a banzuni co misno lo .irci
14:33 < Ilmen> .i ku'i lo drata jbopre zo'u mi na djuno
14:34 < _mukti_> .i xu plixau fa lo nu da'i finti lo liste be lo na'e catni se cusku .i mupli fa zo kanpe
14:35 < _mukti_> .i xu lo liste cu ba'o finti
14:35 < _mukti_> si se finti
14:35 < selpahi> ro da po'u nai la .lojbab. cu zanru tu'a zo kanpe
14:35 < selpahi> .i xu mi catni .i ca'e zo kanpe cu se zanru mi
14:36 < selpahi> .i ku'i lo liste zo'u mi na sanji
14:36 < _mukti_> .i pe'i do jo'u byfy cu catni
14:38 < Ilmen> pe'i lo fadni nu pilno cu vajrai .i la .lojbab. mu'a na ka'e pe'a nafsku lo du'u zo kanpe na fadni valsi
14:38 < selpahi> pe'i lo nu LLG jmaji pu temci dukse .i ro lo denpa be lo nu mulno cu co'a sipna .i je BPFK za'o sipna
14:38 < Ilmen> s/na/ja'ai
14:38 < Ilmen> sisasu
14:38 < Ilmen> la .lojbab. mu'a na ka'e pe'a nafsku lo du'u zo kanpe cu fadni valsi
14:38 < _mukti_> .i nitcu lo nu byfy cikna
14:39 < _mukti_> .i .e'u do ciknygau
14:39 < selpahi> .ei mi go'i .i ku'i mi ca'o nitcu lo ka co'a se jibri .oi sai
14:39 < _mukti_> .oi
14:39 < Ilmen> la'a da'i xamgu fa lo nu gubni tavla lo fuzykamni javni .i pe'i ge vajni banzuni gi ku'i na .inda lo ka dukse co ditcu xaksu
14:40 < selpahi> ie .i sarcu
14:40 < selpahi> ru'e
14:40 < Ilmen> .i la'a mu'a jdice lo du'u ta'i ma kau cmima binxo .i la'a lo nu rau ca cmima cu zanru cu sarcu
14:40 < _mukti_> .i za'a lo jibri .e lo verba cu ckape la .lojban.
14:40 < Ilmen> .i la'a na sarcu fa lo nu finti lo barda javni
14:41 < selpahi> mi se jibri no da .i je mi pindi .i fanza
14:42 < selpahi> .i sa'e dukse lo ka pindi kei lo ka mu'a co'a xabju lo kumyzda pe mi po'o
14:42 < selpahi> .i malfu'a fa lo nu lo jbobau cu jai nandu fai lo ka se pi'o ce'u mi ka'e jerna lo jdini
14:42 < _mukti_> se'a cu'i dai
14:42 < Ilmen> sa'u lo jbobau cu se kurji lo prenu poi lo nu ke'a zifre cu ditybra banzuni .i lo jbobau na ctigau lo jbopli
14:43 < selpahi> .i pu ctuca .i xamgu .i ku'i me'i rau da tadni
14:44 < Ilmen> jbo: se'a
14:45 < mensi> se'a = sinxa le du'u le cusku cu sezbanzu |>>> sezbanzu |>>> xorxes
14:45 < selpahi> .u'e lo gimste jai se stidi cu naldra .i ko catlu http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/se%27a
14:45 < selpahi> .i stidi tu'a zoi gy. kantcu .gy noi na jbovla
14:45 < selpahi> .i ta'o nai ...
14:45 < _mukti_> ue
14:46 < Ilmen> la'a pu skudji zo kancu zo'o
14:56 < Ilmen> ca lo cabdei mi tolmo'i tau lo nu vokta'a kei fau lo nu lanli tau la nu jansu .i .oi .i ku'i ca lo nu mi lerci vikte zo'u la .niftyg. pu za'o jundi .i je ri joi mi casnu ze'a
14:57 < Ilmen> .i la nu jansu cu zenba lo ka fanza mi .i .ai jundi jdika .i je jdika .i je go'i
14:58 < Ilmen> .i ju'o mi pu da'i ka'e pilno pi ro lo jansu ditcu lo palmautce
14:58 < Ilmen> xe'e
14:58 < Ilmen> seju xagmautce
14:59 < Ilmen> ni'o ta'o co'o ro do
15:03 < selpahi> .oi dai
15:03 < selpahi> co'o
22:22 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 130 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 128 normal]
23:58 < Wyaty> Hi
--- Day changed Sun May 17 2015
00:01 < gleki> hi
00:03 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 132 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 130 normal]
01:40 < zipcpi> be'e
01:44 < b_jonas> coi
01:44 < zipcpi> coi
01:47 < gleki> coi
01:48 < zipcpi> coi
01:49 < zipcpi> Oh I just noticed the whole "Extended Lojban Grammar" from your La Bangu project, and I'm kinda wondering how much we will be duplicating work
01:49 < b_jonas> i ca lo pu cabnicte mi fi'o te krefu li pa senva lo mupli be lo jbobau be'o fasnu
01:52 < gleki> zipcpi: ELG is currently not being developed
01:52 < zipcpi> "Yesterday I dreamt for the first time about Lojban"? (not sure how to naturally fit mupli or fasnu in there)
01:53 < b_jonas> zipcpi: no, not about lojban, just a dream where lojban had occurred
01:53 < zipcpi> Oh OK
01:53 < zipcpi> There is a cmavo for saying "nth time", re'u
01:54 < zipcpi> So fi'o te krefu li pa = pa re'u
01:54 < b_jonas> yes. I don't use that particle, but understand it.
01:54  * zipcpi nods
01:56 < zipcpi> I still wonder if I could revive some sort of Lojban retranslation party
01:56 < zipcpi> I think we had that game long ago
01:56 < zipcpi> But I forgot how they hid the translations until the game was over
01:58 < zipcpi> lo fanva refkusi kelci'e
01:59 < zipcpi> Was it ROT13? Hm there really needs to be an encoding system similar to ROT13 but hides the shape of words
02:00 < zipcpi> Since that's kind of a thing in Lojban
02:00 < b_jonas> i fi'o senva ku mi troci lo nu ciska so'u jbobau jufra na'e pi'o lo vlaste .i rapli li pi so'a lo nu fliba gi'e rapli li pi so'a lo nu snada i
02:00 < b_jonas> zipcpi: do you mean a telephone game?
02:00 < zipcpi> Yes
02:00 < gleki> rot13: coi munje
02:00 < mensi> pbv zhawr
02:00 < b_jonas> zipcpi: just use email, and don't send the translations except to the next player (and maybe the moderator) till the end fo the game
02:00 < b_jonas> you don't need complicated schemes like rot13
02:01 < zipcpi> Maybe make la mensi moderate :p
02:01 < b_jonas> (if you weren't someone who's returned to lojban after several years, I'd think you're a young one thinking that way only because you think all messages have to go through facebook chat walls)
02:01 < b_jonas> (I mean, come on)
02:02 < zipcpi> :p
02:02 < b_jonas> (doesn't even facebook has some sort of private messages?)
02:03 < zipcpi> No, I know about private messages... but I wasn't sure how to coordinate it
02:03 < b_jonas> zipcpi: well, first you ask for people who want to participate, and what languages they're willing to translate to and from, and which one of them are willing to choose initial quotes
02:03 < zipcpi> rot13: bu'a'a'a'a'a
02:03 < mensi> oh'n'n'n'n'n
02:04 < b_jonas> Then you agree about the topology of who will start each translation path and who sends to whom next, and publish it.
02:05 < b_jonas> You optionally agree on a moderator who doesn't play but gets a copy of everything, just in case.
02:05 < zipcpi> Or the moderator is the one who provides the initial quote; that way e is not locked out completely
02:05 < b_jonas> Then everyone invites the starting quote and sends to the next person in email. Next person translates it, and sends only the translation to the next person. Etc.
02:05 < b_jonas> zipcpi: Yes, that can work too.
02:08 < zipcpi> http://gyazo.com/a2f26ae9a14245d8f0017955732e0e13
02:09 < b_jonas> zipcpi: hmm, yuo're trying to translate M:tG cards too? some other person here tried as well
02:09 < b_jonas> lemee look
02:09 < gleki> jmifa?
02:09 < zipcpi> Nah that's the only card I translated
02:09 < zipcpi> Reef
02:09 < zipcpi> Or shoal... but the original name is Reef Worm
02:09 < gleki> selpa'is connectives...
02:10 < gleki> b_jonas: have you come up with a new connective system?
02:10 < zipcpi> I can't remember what the old connective for poi is OK :p
02:10 < b_jonas> oh, it's from Commander 2014. no wonder I didn't recognize it, despite that I like sea monsters
02:10 < gleki> because in CC i just ended up with the normal connectives since JOI can't be in tanru by their semantics.
02:11 < b_jonas> gleki: right now I'm first trying to think about how the lojban grammar works. I've been thinking a bit more about it recently (during the day), and maybe I'm seeing my problems a bit clearer, but still not clear enough.
02:11 < zipcpi> Heck I learned the old connectives. Then promptly forgot them
02:11 < zipcpi> Especially those mabla ke question connectives
02:12 < b_jonas> gleki: I have some ideas about connectives, but I'm trying to figure out how the existing grammar works before deciding what new grammar I want to create.
02:12 < zipcpi> Can never remember those, because they broke pattern, and aren't used very often
02:12 < b_jonas> gleki: It's still the free text inserts that bother me.
02:13 < b_jonas> zipcpi: wait, {ti}? that seems strange
02:13 < zipcpi> The very reason we have so many connectives is because they didn't want the parser to have to backtrack. But this is the kind of thing that makes people think that Lojban is made for computers and not for humans
02:14 < b_jonas> zipcpi: but actually, the connectives aren't the only problem with the grammar, they're just one of them
02:14 < b_jonas> I particularly hate {moi} because it seems to have been so avoidable originally, but hard to fix now
02:14 < b_jonas> the connectives at least have some reason to be designed this way, mostly.
02:15 < zipcpi> b_jonas: Yes, {ti} as a way to refer to "this card" or "this creature". One problem I find with the language on MTG cards is that it referred to the card itself by name, but when the ability is copied to other cards it means "this card"
02:15 < zipcpi> I would prefer using "this" as a pronoun, but in some situations it causes semantic ambiguity; I guess that's why they haven't adopted it
02:16 < zipcpi> Lojban doesn't have this problem
02:16 < b_jonas> zipcpi: well I'd use {dei poi karda} or something like that for “this card”, but I'm probably the only one who uses {dei} that way
02:16 < b_jonas> I think some people use {nau} instead, like {lo nau karda}
02:16 < gleki> {la'e dei}
02:16 < b_jonas> I don't think {ti} is approperiate
02:17 < b_jonas> gleki: I don't think so, no
02:17 < gleki> {dei} is sentence, not a card
02:18 < gleki> utterance, not sentence
02:18 < zipcpi> Well I actually think {mi} is more accurate, but that might just seem weird to some people
02:18 < gleki> {mi} may work too since it's {le cusku be dei}
02:18 < gleki> not {le cusku be dei be'o noi prenu}
02:18 < b_jonas> gleki: I think {dei} is anything related to the current discussion, but heck, if it's a utterance, that's enough for this case, because a printed card is a utterance
02:19 < zipcpi> Yeah makes sense... that was what I was thinking too
02:19 < zipcpi> But properly dei refers to the text itself
02:19 < gleki> b_jonas: like with di'u, do'i they are all utterances.
02:19 < gleki> i dont know why we need to change that
02:20 < gleki> yes, {dei} is text
02:20 < zipcpi> OK changing it to {mi}
02:21 < b_jonas> gleki: hah! no, I don't think {mi} is a good idea for the card, but I'll refer to this opinion of yours next time people attack me when I try to refer to anything but a person as {se bangu} or {xusra} or {tavla} or similar!
02:21 < gleki> jbo:mi
02:21 < mensi> mi = [KOhA3] le cusku be dei
02:21 < gleki> ^ officially approved by xorxes
02:22 < b_jonas> (and I still think restricting {bangu} to languages with an army and navy is riddiculous)
02:22 < gleki> you mean that example with Aeneid?
02:22 < zipcpi> Yeah sorry about that b_jonas. Just blame malglixlu
02:23 < b_jonas> gleki: yes, but I think that's not the first time I did that
02:23 < gleki> I have no complaint there
02:23 < zipcpi> If there is a Lojban comic book maybe La Malglixlu can be a villain
02:23 < gleki> jb:bangu
02:23 < mensi> bangu = bangu — x1(entity)  is a language used by  x2(entity)  to express  x3(proposition)
02:23 < mensi> :lo bangu — language. lo se bangu — user of a language.
02:23 < mensi> :xu do se bangu la Lojban — Do you speak Lojban?
02:23 < mensi> :le nanmu pu pilno lo bangu be fi lo mabla — The man used dirty language.
02:23 < mensi> :Related words: tance, cusku, ve tavla, valsi, gerna, jufra, natmi, slaka
02:23 < gleki> oops
02:23 < gleki> jbo:bangu
02:24 < mensi> bangu = x1 gunma lo valsi jo'u lo ciste be ri bei lo ka x2 pilno ri ma'i ce'u lo ka cusku lo se smuni be
02:24 < mensi> x3
02:24 < zipcpi> Wait... really? The "dirty language" part was what I protested
02:24 < gleki> you have another translation for "dirty language"?
02:25 < zipcpi> Actually that was my stronger nitpick. That "bangu" was used as "choice of words/phrasing" rather than "se bangu" not being a person
02:25 < b_jonas> mensi: yes sure, but it's not a single sentence but a whole complete book, one that can have clear characteristics of its language use alone.
02:25 < mensi> la'e di'u sinxa ma do
02:25 < b_jonas> um
02:25 < gleki> u'i
02:25 < zipcpi> Actually I would just say le nanmu cu cusku lo malvla
02:25 < gleki> I can't say {malvla} since here entities are multiplied.
02:26 < gleki> La Bangu lacks lujvo or otherwise add them to the core dictionary
02:26 < zipcpi> mabla valsi
02:26 < gleki> I think {le nanmu pu pilno lo valsi poi mabla} can work
02:26 < gleki> ie
02:27 < gleki> But then what can be bangu3 for instance?
02:28 < b_jonas> gleki: the story where eg. Aeneas descends to the underworld to hear the scary and politically influenced predictions of his father, or the gods weild entire armies like toys.
02:28 < zipcpi> " semantic ambiguity" sorry, "syntactic ambiguity"
02:32 < zipcpi> The main problem I find is that there are so many experimental cmavo... probably a large number of them either represent failed experiments or aren't meant for general use (like those long PA ones to represent complicated mathematical concepts)
02:32 < zipcpi> Yet enough of them are used generally that any modern description of the language can't ignore them
02:32 < gleki> and given that JVS isnt being developed I made this La Bangu dictionary.
02:33 < gleki> which removed everything which isnt used
02:33 < gleki> or not immediately needed
02:33 < zipcpi> ie
02:34 < gleki> of course {mi'ai} isnt needed unless you start to translate texts from English and other SAE languages
02:35 < zipcpi> But mostly my problem is that JVS doesn't have a good way to include examples *and* their translation / notes on usage
02:35 < gleki> Hm, interesting. In modern English "to start to ..." is replaced with "to start ...-ing". According to Wierzbicka "to" and "-ing" can mean different things.
02:35 < zipcpi> (If I remember right the examples only accepted Lojban text?)
02:36 < gleki> zipcpi: yes, use tatoeba.org for that.
02:36 < gleki> Hence La Muplis project.
02:36 < zipcpi> Thus I have a problem understanding what some of the original cmavo even do, let alone the experimental ones
02:37 < zipcpi> Like I'm still not sure I fully understand {xoi} :p... though I think it is something like selpa'i's proposal for "new soi"?
02:37 < gleki> If no one has added examples with {xoi} to Tatoeba and you can't find anything in the wiki then I'm afraid i cant help you either.
02:37 < gleki> Try contacting the authors.
02:38 < gleki> I think {xoi} is like {soi} semantically but with a different grammar
02:38 < gleki> en:xoi
02:38 < mensi> xoi = [XOI] Right-scoping adverbial clause: encloses a bridi and turns it into an adverbial term; the antecedent (ke'a)
02:38 < mensi> of the enclosed bridi stands for the outer bridi lo su'u no'a ku (the bridi in which this xoi term appears), including
02:38 < mensi> all the other adverbial terms (tags...) within this bridi located on the right of this xoi term (rightward scope).
02:39 < gleki> idk. In my vision {i broda noi mo} is enough for this. Better parsers will autorestore this to {i fasnu fa lo nu broda noi mo} although the latter loses focus.
02:41 < gleki> hopefully {ju'a} can restore this focus.
02:42 < zipcpi> By the way ilmentufa seems to choke on {la'au}
02:43 < gleki> it's not in the parser
02:44 < Ilmen> I've only implemented the most common experimental cmavo
02:44 < Ilmen> except a few things such as lo'ai-sa'ai-le'ai, that have been added later by somebody else if I recall correctly
02:45 < gleki> So back to "start to/...ing" it's interesting that Lojban doesnt have this distinction
02:45 < gleki> Ilmen: by durka
02:48 < Ilmen> Which distinction?
02:50 < zipcpi> I've seen la'au before, to quote book or song titles. Can't vouch for exactly how common it is though
02:51 < zipcpi> A bit more specific than the standard la'e lu
02:51 < Ilmen> I've used it from times to times
02:52 < Ilmen> en: lai'e
02:52 < mensi> lai'e = [LAhE] Named reference. It converts a sumti into another sumti. The converted sumti points to the referent the
02:52 < mensi> name of which is the referent of the unconverted sumti. |>>> ''lai'e ko'a''=''zo'e noi se cmene ko'a''. lai'e is a cmavo
02:52 < mensi> of LAhE, and followed by any sumti including ''lo se du'u BRIDI'', ''zo...'', ''lu...li'u'', ''lo'u...le'u'' or ''zoi...
02:52 < mensi> '', used with an elidable terminater lu'u. For example, ''lai'e lo se du'u ti brife doi la betis'' refers to something
02:52 < mensi> the name of which is a text in a language that means ''ti brife doi la betis'', while ''la'e lo se du'u ti brife doi la
02:52 < mensi> betis'' refers to the same as ''lo du'u ti brife doi la betis''. The syntax of sumti following lai'e is analy...
02:52 < mensi> [mo'u se katna] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/lai'e
02:52 < zipcpi> Hm
02:53 < zipcpi> So la'au = lai'e lu
02:53 < Ilmen> yeah
02:53 < Ilmen> "lo se cmene be lu..."
02:54 < zipcpi> lo'ai-sa'ai-le'ai is essential though :p
02:54 < zipcpi> The si-sa-su grammar is just not sufficient for online chat systems
02:55 < Ilmen> There's also the UI «je'au»
02:55 < Ilmen> en:je'au
02:55 < mensi> je'au = [UI3] discursive: correcting/corrective/correction - inattentive/uncaring/neutral toward the presence of
02:55 < mensi> possible errors - permitting (known/likely/plausible) error/incompleteness/approximation
02:55 < zipcpi> But UI isn't a sufficient selma'o pe'i
02:55 < Ilmen> and also "se.u" / "segi'u" can be handy sometimes
02:56 < Ilmen> "mi cpacu lo ganra .yy se.u lo grana"
02:56 < zipcpi> Though I'm not quite clear how strict the grammar of lo'ai-sa'ai-le'ai is
02:58 < zipcpi> Well pe'i lo'ai-sa'ai-le'ai should be like lo'u-le'u and not enforce grammar at all, unless you're building a parse system that will actually perform the "find and replace" that lo'ai-sa'ai-le'ai is meant for
02:59 < zipcpi> This allows replacing any arbitrary lojban text with any arbitrary lojban text, especially when correcting grammar
03:00 < zipcpi> That's why UI isn't sufficient
03:00 < zipcpi> I think je'au is more accurately used for if you just said something false because you were mistaken, and I am correcting you
03:02 < gleki> jbo:la'au
03:02 < zipcpi> Something like ("He went out the back door." "Actually, the cameras say he went out the front."
03:02 < mensi> lai'e = [LAhE] sumgadri le se li'erla'i sumti le du'u sinxa le se cmene be ri
03:05 < gleki> i need a convertor for {lo se cmima be ko'a}
03:05 < zipcpi> And je'aunai would probably be like "I'm probably completely wrong, but..."
03:05 < gleki> hwere {ko'a} isnt necessarily the full set
03:05 < gleki> Eric translated the front page to Swedish
03:07 < zipcpi> Tatoeba search xoi: one result: lo ni mi baucre cu banzuni ge lo so'i tcini gi nai ku'i lo nu cusku lo mi selcni noi xoi cafne cu jai nafse'i
03:07 < zipcpi> German and Esperanto translations. No English
03:08 < Ilmen> zipcpi: "xoi" is a bridi relative clause particle
03:08 < Ilmen> it's like poi/noi, but it doesn't attach to a sumti
03:08 < Ilmen> "You're singing, which is beautiful"
03:08 < Ilmen> "do sanga xoi melbi"
03:08 < Ilmen> ua pei
03:09 < zipcpi> ua
03:09 < gleki> you'd better add examples to tatoeba to prevent such questions
03:10 < Ilmen> je'e ie
03:10 < Ilmen> this sentence is a pretty good example IMI
03:10 < Ilmen> si IMO
03:10 < zipcpi> Except it doesn't have an English translation... maybe I'll attempt it
03:11 < Ilmen> "You're singing, which is beautiful" is a good example, I mean
03:11 < zipcpi> Oh
03:11 < Ilmen> it's not overly complicated
03:11 < zipcpi> ie
03:13 < zipcpi> Yeah I tried searching the IRC corpus but I think it came up nothing
03:13 < zipcpi> Which means I'm probably not the only one who was totally confused :p
03:13 < Ilmen> zipcpi: A xoi-clause is treated as an adverbial, it behaves like "naku" from the syntax point of view
03:14 < Ilmen> so one can says things like "lo broda pe xoi brode", just like one can say "lo broda pe naku"
03:14 < Ilmen> *say
03:15 < zipcpi> I forgot how naku works
03:15 < Ilmen> zipcpi: basically xoi is semantically similar to fi'o, but with a pretty different syntax
03:15  * zipcpi nods
03:15 < zipcpi> Does it have a famyma'o?
03:15 < Ilmen> mi citka lo finpe sepi'o lo forca ----> mi citka lo finpe xoi mi pilno lo forca ke'a
03:16 < zipcpi> ua
03:17 < Ilmen> There's also the "new-soi" which is the word "soi" reassigned with a meaning very close to that of xoi
03:17 < zipcpi> Yeah
03:17 < Ilmen> selpahi wanted {se'u} to be the terminator for soi/xoi
03:17 < gleki> Ilmen: how are they different,pls remind me
03:17 < Ilmen> but I'm afraid that can be confusing, because sei has no bridi tail
03:17 < Ilmen> maybe ku'o would be a better terminator
03:18 < b_jonas> i lo mamta cu nalgunka vitke klama la'o gi. London .gi ca lo ba critu .i pu zi te vecnu lo vinji pikta
03:18 < Ilmen> gleki: the difference is just with scope; xoi has a regular rightward scope (just like naku, ki'uku...), while soi has topmost scope
03:19 < gleki> je'e
03:19 < Ilmen> so {naku do sanga xoi melbi} = it is not the case that [ you sing which is beautiful ]
03:19 < Ilmen> whereas
03:19 < Ilmen> {naku do sanga soi melbi} = [ you don't sing ] which is beautiful
03:19 < Ilmen> (it is beautiful that [ it is not the case that you sing ]
03:19 < Ilmen> )
03:20 < gleki> so {soi} is more like {i je lo nu go'i}
03:20 < gleki> so {soi} is more like {i je ta'o lo nu go'i}
03:20 < Ilmen> yeah
03:22 < Ilmen> So in simple sentences where there's no other scope word, soi and xoi are identical; they behave differently only when they are on the right of a scope-generating word
03:22 < Ilmen> (naku, da, sumtcita...)
03:23 < gleki> in my dialect those are similar to {noi} and {vau noi}
03:25 < zipcpi> ta'o I really like the Lojban definition of ifle
03:25 < zipcpi> jbo:ifle
03:25 < mensi> ifle = ganai me'au x1 gi me'au x2 .ije ga me'au x1 gi me'au x3
03:26 < zipcpi> It's so... catchy :p
03:26 < zipcpi> Almost poetic
03:26 < Ilmen> .u'i
03:27 < b_jonas> i mi morji lo du'u go'o .i .u'i de'i li 2012 cu zbasu lo fonxa crada tcana be bu'u lo pe la .londyn. tcacnitytrene nitdargu .i zu pu lo nu go'i ku go'i bu'u la .budapect.
03:30 < zipcpi> How would you say "On the 25th"? "de'i li xo'e pi'e xo'e pi'e remu"?
03:30 < zipcpi> ... too long
03:31 < gleki> ganai me'au fabu
03:31 < gleki> gi me'au febu
03:31 < gleki> ije ga me'au fabu
03:31 < gleki> gi me'au fibu
03:31 < gleki> sounds like a haiku
03:31 < b_jonas> zipcpi: I rarely say such a thing. I use full dates, because anything less often ends up being confusing.
03:32 < zipcpi> I remember there was a proposal for a zi'evla... maybe {dreika} or something, from {detytcika}
03:32 < zipcpi> Where each place value is a number... first being year, second being month, etc
03:32 < gleki> yes, but since one needs to invent a new word for every time unit i prefer ti'u and de'i
03:32 < b_jonas> But I'd say it as {de'i li pi'e pi'e pi'e 25} if I had to. more likely {de'i li pi'e pi'e 05 pi'e 25} with an explicit month, which I write as {de'i li --05-25}
03:33 < gleki> Also L4B says that if there is only one number then it denotes the date
03:33 < zipcpi> Erm, I think you have one too many pi'es
03:33 < gleki> And La Bangu follows L4B here:
03:33 < gleki> jb:de'i
03:33 < mensi> de'i = de'i [preposition from detri] — on date ... (date stamp follows)
03:33 < mensi> :de'i li pa mu pi'e ci mi pu zvati la Nipon — On March 15 I was in Japan.
03:33 < mensi> :Comment: only one number denotes calendar day, two numbers separated with pi'e denote calendar day and month, three
03:33 < mensi> numbers denote calendar day, month and year number, four numbers denote calendar day, week number, month and year number
03:33 < mensi> correspondingly.
03:33 < b_jonas> zipcpi: no, I don't. first one separates century from year. ISO date thingy. let me search.
03:34 < b_jonas> zipcpi: {de'i li -15} means year '15 -- I definitely never say that
03:34 < zipcpi> ... see it's this kind of think that needs to be fixed
03:34 < b_jonas> but even then it still needs the extra pi'e
03:34 < zipcpi> We can't agree which date system to use
03:37 < zipcpi> Anyway I think the usual way of saying "the year 2015" is ca lo nanca pe li renopamu
03:38 < b_jonas> zipcpi: that works too, but {detri be fa li 2015} means "in the year 2015" too
03:39 < zipcpi> Well it's the date system that is in dispute. Some want to follow the ISO system, some want dd-mm-yyyy as it's often more convenient to elide the month/year
03:39 < b_jonas> see http://www.probabilityof.com/iso/8601v2000.pdf page labelled 12 about truncated formats
03:41 < b_jonas> zipcpi: no, I _definitely_ never use dd/mm/yyyy or mm/dd/yyyy or dd/mm/yy or mm/dd/yy or -yy-mm-dd or mm/yy or yy/mm or dd/mm or mm/dd. that just leads to the ambiguities I see daily on printed food expiry dates and even bank statements, where you have to guess the format from the context.
03:41 < b_jonas> stick to yyyy-mm-dd please
03:41 < zipcpi> L4B disagrees
03:42 < b_jonas> and in this, I don't even care what the original gismu list says
03:42 < zipcpi> Actually I do favor the ISO system... except for the whole elision thing I mentioned
03:42 < b_jonas> for elision, you can use --mm-dd
03:42 < b_jonas> or even ---dd but I rarely do that
03:42 < b_jonas> it always leads to ambiguities
03:42 < zipcpi> But we can't even agree about how many pi'es to use
03:43 < gleki> L4B uses a different system that deals with conciseness
03:43 < b_jonas> but it's in that freaking standard I just linked to!
03:43 < b_jonas> I mean, come on
03:43 < zipcpi> But you don't say li reno pi'e pa mu for century/year
03:43 < b_jonas> zipcpi: no, the hyphens are optional in ISO8601, and that particular hyphen is forbidden. you can just say yyyymmdd without hyphens, or yyyy-mm-dd
03:44 < zipcpi> Yet if you want to skip to dd you need an extra hyphen?
03:44 < zipcpi> This system doesn't make sense
03:44 < b_jonas> it does make sense. the hyphens were invented for convenience of stupid humans who at that time couldn't be forced to stop saying truncated year names like '96
03:44 < b_jonas> so if they couldn't stop that practice, they at least made an unambiguuos way to represent such truncated years
03:44 < zipcpi> x.x
03:46 < b_jonas> no seriously! I can sort of understand why the people who print food labels don't care, and why the people who create those translated stickers that say “see expiry date (month/day) on the bottom of can” (when it's actually day/month and at the side of the can) in Hungarian don't care
03:46 < b_jonas> but why do banks still print recipes with mm-dd-yy or dd-mm-yy (I don't recall which) dates on them?
03:47 < b_jonas> o'onai
03:48 < zipcpi> Yeah it's a right mess alright
03:48 < b_jonas> and it's not the separators that I care about. if they insist on yyyy.mm.dd. with periods, ok, go ahead
03:49 < b_jonas> but stop the dd/mm and mm/dd madness already
03:50 < b_jonas> also, I'd finally like calendars that identify months as both names and numbers, because it's not my job to learn by heart which month has what ordinal, that's the freaking calendar's job, and even people better in this than me occasionally make mistakes about that
03:50 < b_jonas> but all the calendars I see show only one or the other
03:51 < zipcpi> If I remember the old proposal it was something like "x1 is the date with year number x2, month number x3, day number x4, hour x5, minute x6, second x7
03:51 < gleki> i have no objections for L4B system. it works
03:51 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yes, I've seen that proposal (the gismu list says something simlar I think), but I don't like it
03:51 < gleki> zipcpi: you forgot week xo'ozo'o
03:51 < zipcpi> Though it does extend past x5 which is somewhat inconvenient
03:52 < b_jonas> the date should be a single datum, not separated to three numbers
03:52 < b_jonas> separating it to three datums is what causes half of this trouble
03:52 < gleki> i think L4B suggestion can be extended to not to use pi'e
03:52 < b_jonas> the date, or the date-timestamp, should be given together as a single value
03:52 < gleki> but it's strange since timestamps really contains several parts
03:53 < b_jonas> gleki: nah, they're just a single number given in a crazy mixed base representation
03:54 < zipcpi> Yeah would be that if we all switched to Unix time. Unfortunately we can't change the length of the day or year
03:54 < gleki> b_jonas: okay, how in your system you express "day 1, month 13 of year 12 by Jewish calendar"?
03:54 < b_jonas> I just use iso dates like {de'i li 2015-05-17T12:53:20,933} which I read out as the quite long {de'i li re no pa mu pi'e no mu pi'e pa ze pi'e xi ty. boi pa re pi'e mu ci pi'e re no pi so ci ci}
03:55 < gleki> how would you say "on day 17"? with two pi'e?
03:55 < b_jonas> and optionally elide terminators from that
03:56 < zipcpi> gleki: No, with three. Did you miss that huge argument? xo'ozo'o
03:56 < b_jonas> gleki: with three pi'e if I must, but usually with two pi'e and an explicit month, or just "on Tuesday" as in {ca lo reldei}
03:56 < gleki> So your ISO system doesnt work with Jewish and Muslim calendars i suppose?
03:56 < b_jonas> gleki: I don't know, I only use one calendar, and don't know much about other calendars (I only know that the FAQ url is http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html ),
03:57 < b_jonas> someone else who uses those calendars will have to figure out how to write dates in them.
03:57 < gleki> i think you should just create a new cmavo.
03:57 < gleki> Because it all starts to sound like a new addition to cekitaujau
03:58 < Ilmen> x1 [date symbol] represents time point x2 in calendar x3
03:58 < Ilmen> or such
03:58 < zipcpi> de'i li ny. renopamu my. mu dy. paze
03:59 < zipcpi> (I think I broke the grammar)
03:59 < zipcpi> exp: de'i li ny. renopamu my. mu dy. paze
03:59 < mensi> ([de'i {li <(¹ny [re no pa mu my mu dy pa ze]¹) BOI> LOhO}] VAU)
03:59 < zipcpi> Nope it works
04:00 < gleki> you just broke jbofi'e probably
04:00 < gleki> but not ilmentufa
04:00 < gleki> gerna:de'i li ny. renopamu my. mu dy. paze
04:00 < mensi> O_0
04:00 < gleki> gerna:de'i li ny. renopamu my. mu dy. paze boi
04:00 < mensi> (0[{de'i <li (1[{<(2[{<(3[ny re] no)3 pa> mu} my] mu)2 dy> pa} ze] boi)1 LO'O>} VAU])0
04:00 < gleki> LO'O !
04:00 < gleki> not LOhO
04:01 < Ilmen> xoi calendar_predicate fa me'o renopamu pi'e mu pi'e paxa (fe ke'a) fi la .dje'ordji'an.
04:01 < zipcpi> Hm but month = masti and minute = mentu
04:01 < zipcpi> Though English also has this problem
04:01 < gleki> maybe indeed map units with letters like zipcpi suggests?
04:02 < gleki> n m j d c m s
04:02 < Ilmen> If you have a calendar that allow such input, why not
04:02 < gleki> most known calendars are similar to this "n m j d c m s" system
04:02 < zipcpi> Yeah that solves the whole week vs month problem too
04:03 < gleki> in English they usually use M vs. m
04:03 < Ilmen> I'd see a predicate that take a date *symbol* (such as a letter or digit string), and relates it to a time point and a calendar argument
04:04 < zipcpi> But yeah this way would be much freer. de'i li dy. paze is quite clear
04:04 < zipcpi> No need to count how many pi'es to use
04:04 < gleki> ye but that would require an additional step in hyperPEG i.e. semantic parsing
04:04 < Ilmen> so the calendar would extract a concrete time point from this abstract date symbol, that could have any shape accepted by the calendar
04:05 < gleki> just tell me how to distinguish month and minute
04:05 < Ilmen> The calendar would be kinda function that parses the date symbol and returns a timestamp
04:05 < gleki> and i guess letters are prefixes to numbers, right?
04:05 < Ilmen> so the encoding of the date wholly depends on the selected calendar
04:06 < gleki> encoding is in detri3
04:06 < Ilmen> en: detri
04:06 < mensi> detri = x1 is the date [day,week,month,year] of event/state x2, at location x3, by calendar x4. |>>> (time units in x1
04:06 < mensi> are specified as numbers separated by pi'e or are unit values massified with joi); See also cmavo list de'i, djedi,
04:06 < mensi> jeftu, masti, nanca, tcika. |>>> officialdata
04:06 < gleki> jbo:detri
04:06 < mensi> detri = x1 noi nanca jo'u masti jo'u djedi sinxa cu judri x2 noi fasnu kei x3
04:06 < gleki> cu'u la xorxes
04:06 < Ilmen> Xorxes completetely hijacked {detri}, as far as I remember
04:06 < gleki> he paralleled it judri
04:06 < Ilmen> there's no calendar anymore
04:07 < gleki> en:judri
04:07 < mensi> judri = x1 is an address of/are coordinates of x2 in system x3.
04:07 < Ilmen> hm
04:07 < gleki> as for La Bangu i probably should follow xorxes. but i cant do that always
04:08 < Ilmen> so the time and place are merged into the x2?
04:08 < zipcpi> PnYnMnDTnHnMnS
04:08 < gleki> just use bu'u
04:08 < zipcpi> That's from the ISO description of duration stamps
04:08 < gleki> P ?
04:08 < zipcpi> P for period
04:08 < gleki> like ...?
04:09 < Ilmen> well, then if detri1 is a symbol, then it should be given a me'o argument and not a li
04:09 < zipcpi> P1M = 1 moth.
04:09 < zipcpi> PT1M = 1 minute
04:09 < zipcpi>  "P3Y6M4DT12H30M5S" represents a duration of "three years, six months, four days, twelve hours, thirty minutes, and five seconds".
04:09 < gleki> why cant number be an address?
04:09 < zipcpi> This is for durations and not for dates though
04:10 < gleki> oh!
04:10 < gleki> interesting
04:10 < gleki> you just solved one huge mystery zipcpi
04:10 < zipcpi> uanairu'e
04:11 < gleki> but how does this system distinguish periods from dates?
04:11 < zipcpi> This format is used for periods. Unfortunately the date system is a mess and that is why we had that huge argument
04:12 < gleki> Maybe the lack of P signals that it's a date?
04:12 < zipcpi> It has separate ways for YYYY-MM-DD, YYYY-Www-D, YYYY-DDD (ordinal date, meaning like the 135th day of the year)
04:13 < zipcpi> Doesn't use any letters, except for T to separate the date from the time of day
04:13 < zipcpi> And a letter in the end to signify timezone
04:13 < gleki> 32nd day of month 1 = 1st day of month 2
04:13 < gleki> so this DDD is not a problem for me
04:13 < b_jonas> icedp: no, {lo detri} is a _value_, even if it's not just a number written in the usual way. {me'o} is for when you're quoting the expression or consider its symbols.
04:14 < b_jonas> um
04:14 < b_jonas> Ilmen: ^
04:14 < b_jonas> so no, definitely not {me'o}
04:14 < zipcpi> That is what is under discussion
04:14 < demize> gleki: It would probably be somewhat of an issue for most people to use ;)
04:14 < gleki> probably me'o cant be calculated.
04:15 < gleki> demize: people probably wont use. although some people do celebrate 256th day every year
04:15 < gleki> Short resume: I take this P system with letters for describing it later and probably using it somewhere.
04:15 < zipcpi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmers%27_Day ua
04:24 < b_jonas> ni'o la .david mador. presku fi lo bangu tadni .i prexu'a lo du'u tadni lo za'u bangu ku poi simsa simxu ca lo xu kau mintu .i ko tcidu fi la'o papri. http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-05-16.2297.html#d.2015-05-16.2297 .papri
04:24 < b_jonas> .i na srana lo jbobau
04:25 < Ilmen> .oi I was talking to mensi instead of #lojban
04:25 < Ilmen> gleki: "2012-05-16" is not a number, it's a symbol that needs to be parsed in order to extract the exact number of days since year #0
04:26 < Ilmen> and that not as easy as it may seems, because the bissextil years aren't as predictable, they aren't necessarily every 4 years
04:26 < Ilmen> If detri1 was given a plain number (the number of days since year 0), then li would be appropriate, indeed
04:26 < Ilmen> I think on the mriste Xorxes said that li was more powerful than I thought, and was able to parse expressions in complex encodings such as calendar dates, and return the appropriate number (the number of days since year #0?); but then, it would be impossible to specify what calendar is used, because li has no place for specifying an encoding
04:26 < PrincessBecca> hm. in the lojban wave lessons, when it's going over attitudinals and talking about laadan, it says "In Lojban, there is no such agenda", which almost might make me think that lojbanists are sexists who dismissively refer to equality as "an agenda", which is probably not what you want?
04:26 < Ilmen> So I'm not very enthusiastic at the idea of leaving the job of parsing date symbols to {li}
04:26 < Ilmen> I'd prefer giving directly the date symbol (using {me'o}) to a predicate that would parse it itself, with the calendar given to it as another argument
04:26 < Ilmen> so that one can explicitly indicate which calendar is being used, if needed
04:26 < Ilmen> Y2015M5D17 is-the-symbol-for-timepoint Today in-calendar YMD-Georgian
04:26 < b_jonas> Ilmen: it might not be a number, but a numeric value. you can put a vector or other non-numeric expression after {li} if you use it for its meaning/value, or after {me'o} if you want to talk about the expressions
04:26 < Ilmen> mu'o
04:26 < zipcpi> Laadan isn't about equality
04:26 < PrincessBecca> "agenda" is a pretty loaded word
04:27 < PrincessBecca> in english.
04:27 < b_jonas> Ilmen: it is irrelvant how complicated it is to compute with the particular expression you give.
04:27 < Ilmen> b_jonas: okay, but you can't specify explicitly what code it's in
04:28 < PrincessBecca> it has a very negative connotation. people talk about "the gay agenda", "the feminist agenda", etc. and people who do so are generally conservative talk radio hosts.
04:28 < b_jonas> Ilmen: I don't think that's a problem. That's normal.
04:28 < gleki> Ilmen: pi'e is like pi. although whereas in decimal system every digit differs always in 10 in Gregorian calendar it varies
04:28 < gleki> PrincessBecca: not an English person wrote that. so feel free to make corrections
04:29 < PrincessBecca> when you use a word like "agenda" to refer to feminism, you're alienating a large number of potential speakers
04:29 < Ilmen> je'e
04:29 < Ilmen> .ei co'o
04:29 < b_jonas> Ilmen: if you want to use {me'o}, go on, I will understand it, but I think {li} is right for that. Maybe that's because I have some strange ideas about lojban mekso that I haven't really explained anywhere.
04:29 < b_jonas> co'o Ilmen
04:29 < PrincessBecca> ok
04:29 < zipcpi> It didn't just eliminate the things it didn't like. It tried to reverse things. If English is really so sexist for marking things one way how is marking it the other way any better
04:29 < gleki> if u want i can correct now for you
04:29 < gleki> PrincessBecca: what word should be used?
04:30 < zipcpi> The word feminism is loaded. I prefer to call myself an egalitarian
04:30 < PrincessBecca> i would rewrite the clause completely.
04:30 < PrincessBecca> err, the sentence.
04:31 < gleki> okay, re'i. what would you write?
04:31 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, i'm really not getting into a debate on this subject in here.... suffice to say i prefer to use the normal word that normal people have used for decades, rather than having an agenda to discredit feminism.
04:31 < PrincessBecca> gleki, let me think about it.
04:31 < zipcpi> Yes, normal people like the people who tweet #killallmen
04:32 < zipcpi> Or the Dworkinites that say that all PIV is rape
04:33 < PrincessBecca> do you want me to talk about the ridiculous things MRAs and "egalitarians" say online?
04:33 < gleki> In fact it's plain wrong that Lojban brrowed that idea of attitudinals from Laadan. It's from Loglan.
04:34 < PrincessBecca> were evidentials in Loglan?
04:34 < gleki> Individual words could be borrowed but that happens everywhere else in Lojban.
04:34 < zipcpi> Where did I mention MRAs?
04:35 < zipcpi> I'm not talking about the fringe here. Dworkin is still a "big name" in feminism
04:35 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, sorry, i consider all non-feminists to be the same, much in the same way you believe feminists are all the same.
04:36 < zipcpi> Then perhaps you should remove the log from your own eye then
04:36 < PrincessBecca> sorry, i didn't realize i was talking to Jesus.
04:36 < PrincessBecca> bbl
04:37 < zipcpi> If you're so worried that if people say they believe in equality but not feminism, then you should be more worried about the people who say they believe in feminism but don't believe in equality
04:37 < gleki> PrincessBecca: hard to say. There are certainly discursives in the current Loglan.
04:37 < gleki> en:evidential
04:37 < PrincessBecca> it's literally a contradiction to believe in feminism but not equality
04:38 < mensi> 16 da se tolcri: ba'a, ba'acu'i, ba'anai, ca'e, ja'o, ju'a, ju'aku'i, ka'u, pe'i, ru'a, se'o, si'au, su'a, su'anai, ti'e,
04:38 < mensi> za'a
04:38 < gleki> loglan:tau
04:38 < mensi> tau = even, surprisingly,unexpectedly (UI), a discursive
04:38 < gleki> loglan:io
04:38 < mensi> io = I expect/in all likelyhood..., exp. of moderate belief.
04:38 < gleki> en:ba'a
04:38 < mensi> ba'a = [UI2] evidential: I expect - I experience - I remember.
04:38 < PrincessBecca> feminism = belief in equality, period
04:38 < PrincessBecca> if you believe in equality, you are a feminist.
04:38 < PrincessBecca> www.areyouafeminist.com
04:40 < zipcpi> Then I guess Dworkin doesn't exist then?
04:40 < gleki> if {za'a} is an evidential then Loglan has it too: http://www.loglan.org/Loglan1/chap5.html#table5.3
04:40 < PrincessBecca> i have no comment on dworkin, i have been a feminist for about 30 years without ever having read her.
04:41 < PrincessBecca> gleki, cool. it's better not to put such a polemic topic in there at all than to comment on it and say it has "an agenda" whereas lojban does not.
04:42 < zipcpi> How about Sarkeesian then? Heard of her?
04:42 < PrincessBecca> less alienating.
04:42 < zipcpi> http://archive.is/mNEUu
04:42 < gleki> PrincessBecca: even if most evidentials didnt exist in Loglan it's wrong to apply that to all attitudinals. {ui} is an ancient word originated in Loglan.
04:43 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, i agree with that statement.
04:43 < b_jonas> gleki: what's its lojban equivalent?
04:43 < zipcpi> How is that equality?
04:43 < gleki> loglan:ui
04:43 < mensi> ui = fine!/good!/oh!..., an exp./exclamation of pleasure.
04:44 < b_jonas> oh argh, is that still the database that gives only the first line of the definition? let me check the full defn
04:44 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, it's simple if you think about it. if the current state of affairs is not equal, then any attempt by someone with less power to make things equal will unjustly appear to the person with power as an attack.
04:44 < zipcpi> It's not a zero-sum game.
04:44 < PrincessBecca> it happens all the time.
04:44 < b_jonas> gleki: could you perhaps make it give all lines?
04:44 < gleki> b_jonas: za'a, you can't immediately decide what <ui> means in Loglan.
04:44 < gleki> loglan: ui
04:44 < mensi> ui = fine!/good!/oh!..., an exp./exclamation of pleasure.
04:45 < PrincessBecca> that's why american christians believe they're being persecuted.
04:45 < gleki> that's all
04:45 < gleki> no more lines
04:45 < b_jonas> gleki: yeah, but does it give all lines for other words?
04:45 < gleki> should
04:45 < b_jonas> it used to give only one line
04:45 < b_jonas> maybe you fixed it
04:45 < gleki> loglan: kamla
04:45 < mensi> kamla = K come/go from S to D via V.
04:45 < b_jonas> let me try
04:45 < gleki> hm
04:45 < gleki> strange
04:46 < zipcpi> You don't right injustice by lumping people into classes and then artificially balance the scales. That just means more innocent people will suffer
04:46 < b_jonas> the defn for {ui} actually has two lines too
04:48 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, i really don't understand what you're saying. without ever having experienced the way women are treated differently than men by default in society, i'm not sure saying "not all men" is helpful to bringing about equality. first you have to understand your position and why it is fundamentally different from that of a woman's.
04:48 < gleki> b_jonas: there are actually two definitions of it.
04:49 < zipcpi> That is what the Marxists tried to do, except it was landowners vs the working class
04:49 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, i am a marxist
04:49 < zipcpi> Can't say I'm surprised
04:49 < b_jonas> loglan: dilko
04:49 < mensi> dilko = B is delicate/subtle/pleasing to D in quality N.
04:50 < PrincessBecca> marxists don't "try to do" anything, marxism is a broad set of philosophical, political and economic theories.
04:50 < zipcpi> What about the USSR?
04:50 < PrincessBecca> most people are marxists and don't even know it.
04:50 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, that was marxism-leninism.
04:50 < PrincessBecca> i.e., it already had someone's ideas besides marx's in it.
04:50 < PrincessBecca> by definition.
04:50 < b_jonas> should give all eight definition lines, some of which are for negation, place swap, or abtracted versions
04:51 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/File:roroi_bredi.svg
04:51 < zipcpi> Yeah they said that all you needed to do was hand the government all the keys to the economy for a while... and then when everyone is equal, it will suddenly let go of that power
04:51 < gleki> b_jonas: it's just that jvs exports dont allow for that so here is some incompatibility
04:51 < PrincessBecca> then there was trotskyism and stalinism, further complicating the matter
04:52 < gleki> en:stalingu
04:52 < gleki> en:stalingau
04:52 < mensi> [< stali lingu ≈ Remain lingu*] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
04:52 < mensi> stalingu[7917], stalylingu[10047]
04:52 < mensi> [< stali linsi gasnu ≈ Remain chain do] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
04:52 < mensi> stalingau[8796], stalingasnu[10866], stalylingau[10926], stalinsygau[10926], stalylingasnu[12996], ...
04:52 < PrincessBecca> and meanwhile europe has been marxist in a completely different sense for decades
04:52 < gleki> en:marxista
04:52 < mensi> [< manri xista ≈ Reference xista*] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
04:52 < mensi> marxista[7937], manryxista[10067]
04:52 < PrincessBecca> and has been prosperous, way more prosperous than the united states.
04:52 < b_jonas> gleki: sure, but it's a *good* dictionary, it would be nice to have a good interface for it
04:53 < gleki> b_jonas: actually other places parallel JVS's keywords
04:53 < PrincessBecca> people claim marxism killed the u.s. auto industry, but actually german and japanese cars killed the u.s. auto industry.... and both germany and japan still have unions, high minimum wages, a social safety net, etc.
04:54 < PrincessBecca> these are essentially marxist ideas.
05:00 < PrincessBecca> (side note: simply owning land does not make you a member of the ruling class; you have to significantly control the means of production.)
05:03 < zipcpi> Wait there is a loglan dictionary?
05:03 < zipcpi> I don't know it though
05:04 < b_jonas> zipcpi: http://math.boisestate.edu/~holmes/loglan.org/holmes_stuff/Peter%20Hill%20dictionary%20project/L-to-E-RH1.html
05:05 < b_jonas> zipcpi: it's quite nice because its compiler took great care to add English keywords redundantly so it can be turned to an English to Loglan dict too (and there's such a version),
05:05 < zipcpi> aa? abrrikote? Really?
05:05 < b_jonas> which is what's missing from most current lojban dictionaries
05:05 < zipcpi> How do you even pronounce that?
05:06 < b_jonas> zipcpi: "aa" in loglan is prounced like "a'a" in lojban
05:06 < gleki> at least for this word there is a lojban equivalent
05:06 < gleki> en:apricot
05:06 < zipcpi> What about doubled consonants?
05:06 < mensi> 5 da se tolcri: birkoku, pelsmela, rutrprunu, ricrprunu, smela
05:07 < gleki> I think they have recently discussed to remove these double consonants
05:07 < b_jonas> zipcpi: I don't know, I don't speak loglan, but I presume they're just geminated consonants
05:08 < b_jonas> zipcpi: the funnier part is that "x" is a loglan letter but it occurs very rarely, in only about five words in that dictionary
05:09 < b_jonas> (sort of like some vowel glides in lojban)
05:09 < zipcpi> Yeah kinda like the status of words like crenzuue and tsekuuoia :p
05:09 < zipcpi> Acutally tsekuuoia is probably not in the dictionary yet
05:10 < zipcpi> Kinda tempted to add it, but I'm kinda suspicious as to my motivations
05:10 < zipcpi> Am I adding it because it might be useful, or am I adding it just to have an example of somewhat pathologic semivowel resolution...
05:14 < zipcpi> No comments?
05:15 < b_jonas> no comments. feel free.
05:16 < zipcpi> Are words ever deleted?
05:16 < Vanlamigu> No.
05:16 < Vanlamigu> Ma smuni zo tsekuŭoĭa ?
05:17 < zipcpi> Can't decide if it should refer to the subfamily Sequoioideae or the genus Sequoia
05:17 < phma> coi
05:17 < zipcpi> coi
05:18 < zipcpi> Think it should refer to the subfamily though... most people can't tell them apart to such specificity
05:18 < Vanlamigu> en:tciuaua
05:18 < mensi> tciuaua = x1 is a Chihuahua of breed/variety x2.
05:19 < gleki> phma: xu ba'e do finti la vlatai
05:19 < zipcpi> Heh nice
05:20 < zipcpi> Yeah it's one of those things that you probably won't encounter very often but when you do it's like... uanaisai
05:20 < phma> Make it the subfamily. The genus has only one extant species, making x2 superfluous.
05:21 < phma> mi na.e la .ritcryd.kyrnos. finti
05:23 < zipcpi> done http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/tsekuuoia
05:23 < b_jonas> phma: doesn't the CLL specifically say that {cinfo} has a {fe} place despite that there's only one species of lion?
05:23 < b_jonas> for consistency or something
05:24 < phma> it does
05:25 < phma> there is an extinct species of lion
05:25 < Vanlamigu> Yeah, consistency has always been the main focus in creating the gismu definitions.
05:25 < b_jonas> (mind you, {remna} is listed in the gimste without a {fe} place.)
05:25 < b_jonas> (maybe for some political reason or something.)
05:26 < b_jonas> iirc some people (gleki?) opine that {remna} shouldn't be a word and lions should be called {tirxu} instead
05:28 < phma> why should {remna} not be a word? I think it should have x2 like the rest
05:28 < b_jonas> I mean, that it shouldn't have been a gismu
05:30 < zipcpi> Are there any potentially any word boundary problems with pronouncing syllabic sonorants as if they had a /y/
05:30 < zipcpi> Like "ikylki" or "bakyrto"
05:30 < zipcpi> I don't think so...
05:31 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yes, I believe there are
05:31 < zipcpi> exp: ikylki
05:31 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "i" found.
05:31 < Vanlamigu> No, and I already do that in type-3 fu'ivla, e.g. {tcityrxactage}
05:31 < Vanlamigu> cidjyrspageti
05:31 < gleki> b_jonas: how can {remna} be not a word?
05:31 < Vanlamigu> Syllabic consonants can be eliminated that way.
05:31 < b_jonas> oh, sorry
05:31 < zipcpi> b_jonas: Well both assertions require proof
05:31 < gleki> As for {tirxu} it's a strange collection of several species
05:31 < b_jonas> I meant {cinfo}, not {remna}
05:32 < Vanlamigu> remfo
05:32 < zipcpi> I don't know enough about Lojban parsing to prove my own assertion though. But you only need to provide one example of a word falling apart
05:32 < Vanlamigu> x1 is a lion or human
05:32 < gleki> I proposed {bramlatu}. I dont see why {tirxu} should cover those bramlatu2 that it covers
05:32 < gleki> en: bramlatu
05:32 < mensi> bramlatu [< barda mlatu ≈ Large cat] = x1 is a big cat of Family Felidae of species x2 |>>> Genus pantera - 'Panthera
05:32 < mensi> (roaring or great cats)': tigra - 'Tiger, Panthera tigris Asia', cinfo - 'Lion, Panthera leo (Africa, Gir Forest in
05:32 < mensi> India)', djaguara - 'Jaguar, Panthera onca (the Americas)', pardu - 'Leopard, Panthera pardus (Asia and Africa)'. Genus
05:32 < mensi> Acinonyx: tcitama - 'Cheetah, Acinonyx jubatus (Africa and Iran)'. Genus Puma: parpuma - 'Cougar, Puma concolor (North
05:32 < mensi> and South America)'. Genus unkia - 'Uncia': irbisa - 'Snow Leopard, Uncia uncia (mountains of central and south Asia)'.
05:32 < mensi> Genus Neofelis: iunbau - 'Clouded Leopard, Neofelis nebulosa (southeast and south Asia)', diardi - 'Sunda Clouded
05:32 < mensi> Leopard, Neofelis diardi (Borneo...
05:32 < mensi> [mo'u se katna] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/bramlatu
05:33 < b_jonas> zipcpi: wait, do you mean only "r" and "l"?
05:33 < b_jonas> gleki: ah
05:33 < b_jonas> I see
05:33 < zipcpi> Oh right I can see how m might cause problems
05:33 < gleki> Half of those proposed fu'ivla re no longer valid
05:33 < zipcpi> Since mr and ml are valid initial consonant pairs
05:34 < Vanlamigu> I hate those pairs.
05:34 < b_jonas> zipcpi: yep
05:34 < Vanlamigu> {mrV} is not a consonantal syllable
05:35 < zipcpi> Still though, supposing it is *bakymrogau
05:35 < zipcpi> Oh wait that's a lujvo now
05:35 < PrincessBecca> how do you talk about neanderthals and homo erectus without an fe place of remna?
05:35 < gleki> i mo i xu zo mlatu co'u i ei zukte ma i xu lo nu ralte lo murmura seba'i
05:35 < Vanlamigu> You'd use danlu
05:36 < phma> I've seen a fe place of remna used
05:36 < Vanlamigu> I've seen a fe place of prenu used
05:36 < gleki> I think remna2 exists
05:36 < gleki> or should
05:36 < zipcpi> It's not defined
05:36 < Vanlamigu> ro ba'u da jinvi
05:37 < gleki> ma'a remna la lojban
05:37 < zipcpi> murmura?
05:37 < PrincessBecca> why not just use danlu for every animal, including humans :P
05:37 < Vanlamigu> Verbosity killed the cat.
05:38 < gleki> en: murmura
05:38 < mensi> murmura = x1 is a pussycat, kitty, kittycat, a purring home animal treated affectionately, belongs to species x2 |>>>
05:38 < mensi> gleki
05:38 < gleki> en: xafxafa
05:38 < mensi> xafxafa = x1 is a bow-wow, doggie, a home kept barking animal of species x2 |>>> See also gerku |>>>
05:38 < mensi> gleki
05:38 < phma> gavgava
05:38 < gleki> ie
05:38 < gleki> cumki
05:38 < zipcpi> Interesting...
05:38 < phma> What meows and has an abscess?
05:38 < PrincessBecca> if not having an fe place of remna is for political reasons that's silly... a language should be able to express anything and everything, no matter how reprehensible.
05:39 < gleki> there wasnt any reason.
05:39 < gleki> there was just a lack of time
05:39 < Vanlamigu> Don't question the gismu inventors.
05:39 < PrincessBecca> u'i
05:39 < gleki> The only reason behind the invention of Lojban was to clone Loglan as fast as possible.
05:40 < gleki> This goal was fully reached.
05:40 < phma> xu lo do karce cu xrududu
05:41 < b_jonas> u'i zo xrududu
05:41 < gleki> uanai
05:41 < zipcpi> u'i
05:41 < gleki> en:xrududu
05:41 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
05:41 < zipcpi> It's a Watership Down reference
05:41 < PrincessBecca> it's onomatopoeic
05:42 < PrincessBecca> xru...du...du... sounds like a car
05:42 < Vanlamigu> mi tirna lo rinrine be lo mi fonxa
05:42  * gleki omnomatopoeic...
05:42 < PrincessBecca> haha
05:42 < b_jonas> i je zo zracucu nu'o srana lo ka trene
05:42 < phma> El teléfono del carpintero solo hace rin
05:42 < Vanlamigu> tcutcutrene
05:42 < gleki> bu'u lo porto lo murmura cu ronrona
05:43 < PrincessBecca> ¿porqué?
05:43 < b_jonas> Vanlamigu: no, that's a lujvoi
05:43 < Vanlamigu> No shit.
05:43 < PrincessBecca> s/porqué/por qué
05:43 < phma> parce que c'est un patapon
05:43 < zipcpi> It's also a reference to Watership down. Hrududu was what the rabbits called cars, trains, and other dangerous vehicles
05:43 < Vanlamigu> jbo:onmatopo'eia
05:43 < mensi> onmatopo'eia = x1 valsi x2 gi'e simsa lo se sinxa be x1 lo ka ma kau sance ce'u
05:44 < gleki> en: omno
05:44 < mensi> omnomo = x1 experiences good taste x2
05:44 < zipcpi> o.o
05:44 < Vanlamigu> mi .omni lo ka .omno
05:44 < Vanlamigu> si .omnomo
05:44 < zipcpi> u'i
05:44 < zipcpi> mutce u'ivla
05:45 < b_jonas> i .oi nai mi citka lo vensa patlu fi'o te krefu ku
05:45 < PrincessBecca> au mi omnomo .i co'o
05:45 < b_jonas> omnomnom
05:45 < zipcpi> Hey wait a minute... Doge becomes completely grammatical when translated to Lojban o.o
05:46 < b_jonas> what's Doge?
05:46 < zipcpi> cu kibro sidmeme
05:47 < Zyxl> There's a word for meme!? .ua
05:47 < Vanlamigu> I just switch mutce with so'i, it's grammatical (sometimes), but not smudra, so it's fine (e.g. https://8ch.net/jbo/res/207.html#234 )
05:48 < Vanlamigu> (it should be so'i jufra .i mutce nibji'i )
05:49 < zipcpi> tcutcutrene -> nitcu nitcu trene
05:49 < zipcpi> ma smuni
05:49 < zipcpi> zo'o
05:49 < Vanlamigu> tcutcu--------
05:49 < Vanlamigu> sei lo trene cu krixa
05:50 < zipcpi> There is actually a cmavo for onomatopoeia. sa'ei
05:50 < Vanlamigu> Yup
05:51 < zipcpi> I quite like the COI2 cmavo. It gives you a space to say things relatively free from the strict constraints of Lojban grammar :p
05:52 < zipcpi> Like COI1 it takes a sumti or selbri but unlike COI1 it doesn't address anyone
05:54 < zipcpi> So it could be cmevla, a lu quote, a lo'u quote, or even a zoi quote. Or ki'ai [selbri] to turn any Lojban word into an attitudinal/interjection
06:02  * nuzba @loewenheim: Now I'm watching Lojban videos on YouTube. Jesus I'm a nerd :/ [http://bit.ly/1B5mS1q]
06:03 < zipcpi> doi gleki Do you think I should write up something about lerfu-tagged detri?
06:04 < zipcpi> It's not quite ISO but it's probably the cleanest way to clean up all the loose threads associated with it
06:05 < zipcpi> Basically it's the "n m j d (t) c m s" system
06:06 < zipcpi> t stands for tcika and would be used to separate the date from the time
06:06 < zipcpi> This also allows unambiguous referral to the hour via "de'i me'o ty my pare"
06:07 < zipcpi> Wait minute I mean
06:08 < zipcpi> And the whole ordinal date system, even though it probably won't be used very often, can be "ny dy"
06:08 < zipcpi> So me'o ny 2015 nydy 256 would be Programmer's Day this year
06:10 < zipcpi> Also quite extensible to other calendar systems if need be... though I'm not sure what you would say to "switch codes"
06:10 < zipcpi> And yeah I'm going with me'o. The idea is that the calendar acts like a computer program that accepts a string and returns a point in time
06:12 < zipcpi> Of course for tcika there's also ti'u
06:12 < zipcpi> Also pi'e is a bit less of a problem there
06:13 < gleki> zipcpi: you may write of letter-deti, yes. that would be very useful. also you may propose something to differentiate between Periods and dates
06:14 < gleki> zipcpi: also i would just replace {masti} with something different starting from another letter.
06:14 < zipcpi> ly for lunre? A bit metaphorical but...
06:15 < gleki> heh
06:15 < zipcpi> lunra I mean
06:15 < gleki> in most major languages it starts either with "m" or it's "yue" in Chinese
06:15 < gleki> in Mandarin
06:16 < zipcpi> Is there a preposition that means "of duration"?
06:17 < gleki> {ze'a lo masti} - during a month
06:17 < gleki> {ze'a lo masti} - during a period of 1 month
06:17 < zipcpi> OK... but there is no gismu that acts like "detri"
06:17 < zipcpi> That converts a number into a period of time
06:17 < b_jonas> zipcpi: fi'o temci ?
06:18 < zipcpi> Are we going to put a mekso into lo temci?
06:18 < gleki> i can imagien that {de'i me'o py ...} talks about a period starting not in year 0 of Gregorian calendar but at a relative point in time
06:19 < zipcpi> en: cabyku'e
06:19 < mensi> cabyku'e [< cabna kuspe ≈ Concurrent range] = k1=c1 ranges through time/has duration k2=c2. |>>> x2 is the complete
06:19 < mensi> duration as the amount of time or an interval specification and is non-aorist. Cf. temci. |>>>
06:19 < mensi> rlpowell
06:19 < zipcpi> ky for kuspe?
06:19 < gleki> so by decree by us {de'i me'o py} can denote a relative interval, i.e. period
06:19 < gleki> well, it's {ditcu}
06:19 < gleki> en;ditcu
06:20 < gleki> en:ditcu
06:20 < mensi> ditcu = x1 is the time-duration/interval/period/[elapsed time] of event x2.
06:20 < zipcpi> ua
06:20 < gleki> needless to say we cant take it
06:20 < zipcpi> ie
06:20 < gleki> Well, in Turkic languages month is [aj] but {abu} would be lengthy
06:21 < gleki> in Japanese it's {tsuki}. {ty} is taken, right?
06:21 < Ilmen> why can't you use M?
06:21 < zipcpi> Not if we scrap the tcika separator idea
06:21 < zipcpi> Cause there is no way to distinguish M from m
06:21 < zipcpi> {masti} vs {mentu}
06:22 < gleki> en: ga'e
06:22 < mensi> ga'e = [BY1] upper-case letteral shift. |>>> officialdata
06:22 < gleki> mi na stidi
06:22 < zipcpi> ua
06:22 < gleki> i clani da'i
06:22 < zipcpi> ie
06:22 < gleki> so {lunra}
06:22 < Vanlamigu> masti bu
06:22 < Vanlamigu> mentu bu
06:22 < Vanlamigu> mi na stidi .i ku'i cumki
06:23 < gleki> ei ly du masti bu
06:23 < zipcpi> lol I like ga'e. I might even use it in combination with the NATO alphabet for spelling out strings with mixed-case letters
06:23 < gleki> ije lo pilno cu cuxna
06:23 < zipcpi> Though I'd have to explain it first
06:23 < gleki> {de'i li masti bu pa} isn't that lengthy
06:23 < Ilmen> There's also {tau} but it's been repurposed as a shorthand for {tu'a} in cekitau dialect
06:24 < gleki> en: tau
06:24 < mensi> tau = [LAU] 2-word letteral/shift: change case for next letteral only. |>>> officialdata
06:24 < Ilmen> And, is there any sense in talking about upper case in Lojban?
06:24 < zipcpi> Oh right ga'e is caps-lock
06:24 < zipcpi> Yeah I know T.T
06:25 < Ilmen> maybe you can take "E" for "mentu"
06:25 < zipcpi> .ebu
06:25 < Ilmen> month are more common in dates than minutes
06:25 < gleki> {tau my} still wont save use. i think remembering which one is M wil ltake time unless you already know this ISO
06:25 < Ilmen> It's a code, and a code must be already known to be used properly
06:26 < gleki> I'm used to YMDhms
06:27 < gleki> de'i li masti bu pa ti'u li cacra bu pa mentu bu pare
06:27 < zipcpi> li and me'o are both of the same selma'o
06:28 < Ilmen> go'i
06:28 < gleki> in January at 12 minutes past one
06:28 < gleki> de'i li ly pa cy pa my pare
06:28 < gleki> impossible . .. Lojban is shorter than English O_0
06:29 < zipcpi> u'i
06:29 < Ilmen> Maybe the basic calendar predicate would be for duration/interval, and the usual absolute date predicate would be a derivative which takes a selected year-0 reference point
06:29 < gleki> it's much better then these L4B rules
06:29 < gleki> *than
06:30 < Ilmen> Date symbol S is the inteval between X and Y under calendar C
06:30 < gleki> Ilmen: just detri3 needs to be prefilled like what it's done for masti2
06:30 < Ilmen> Date symbol S is the inteval between year-0 and X under calendar C
06:32 < Ilmen> sa'u sidbo
06:32 < gleki> anyway for your reference this problem is called time splicing in Lojban. And here are the test sentences that need to be precisely translated to Lojban
06:32 < gleki> at 2 o'clock = ti'u li re pi'e xo'e
06:32 < gleki> at 2:00 = ti'u li re
06:32 < gleki> during the first two hours = ca lo pamoi be lo cacra be li re
06:32 < gleki> ???next hour = ca lo remoi be lo cacra
06:32 < gleki> de'i li pa - on [January] 1
06:32 < gleki> ba de'i li pa ki cabu = tomorrow
06:32 < gleki> de'i li pa poi se masti ki cabu = next month
06:32 < gleki> ti'u li pa = at 1 o'clock
06:32 < gleki> ba ti'u li pa ki cabu = next hour
06:32 < gleki> ti'u li pa poi se snidu ki cabu = next second
06:33 < gleki> You may ignore my attempts at translating
06:33 < gleki> pay attention to the english part
06:33 < Ilmen> ba za lo snidu be li pa
06:34 < gleki> li'a i ku'i mi pu na djica lo ka pilno ge zo de'i gi zo snidu joi zo masti joi zo nanca li'o
06:34 < gleki> {ba za de'i li sy pa} ... something like that would do
06:35 < gleki> first you specify the borders of the period and then count from its border
06:35 < gleki> whereas in Gregorian you count from the year when Jesus was born
06:36 < Vanlamigu> la djedzu
06:37 < gleki> u'isai
06:37 < gleki> djedze
06:37 < gleki> terdjedze
06:38 < gleki> doi terdje mi patfu do
06:40  * nuzba @loewenheim: "Enough" is a number in lojban. Awesome :) [http://bit.ly/1cIgwPI]
06:50 < zipcpi> Yes I was quite in love with that. THough I can't recall it right now
06:51 < gleki> yeah i think such things attract learners to a certain degree.
06:52 < gleki> but at that time i didnt have a habit of documenting every step in my life in Twitter which is common now ( again not for me)
06:52 < zipcpi> Me neither
07:02 < zipcpi> Er crap... I need b_jonas' link to the ISO 8601 and the page reference to the part about truncated dates
07:02 < zipcpi> I'm now using XChat; figured out how to connect with it, so I could log dive if needed
07:04 < Ilmen> I don't seem to have this link in my log (probably because I haven't been continuously connected)
07:04 < gleki> i cant see any iso links
07:04 < zipcpi> Crap logging wasn't turned on
07:05 < gleki> b_jonas: ju'i
07:06 < Vanlamigu> He linked to http://www.tondering.dk/claus/calendar.html
07:06 < zipcpi> Nevermind found it
07:06 < Ilmen> coi vanlami
07:06 < Vanlamigu> And http://www.probabilityof.com/iso/8601v2000.pdf
07:07 < zipcpi> I'm using http://metric1.org/8601.pdf
07:07 < Vanlamigu> coi co'o .i mi lumci lo jupku'a
07:07 < Ilmen> je'e di'ai
07:07 < b_jonas> zipcpi: that's an older version, probably doesn't matter
07:07 < b_jonas> an yes, Vanlamigu gave what I linked to
07:08 < b_jonas> http://www.probabilityof.com/iso/8601v2000.pdf
07:08 < gleki> if no one uses WikiForum then it should probably be turned off
07:09 < Ilmen> WikiForum is back?
07:09 < gleki> it was always on
07:09 < Ilmen> Uh, it seemed to me it disappeared
07:10 < gleki> well, now i know wy no one uses it :)
07:10 < gleki> mw.lojban.org/papri/Special:Wikiforum
07:10 < zipcpi> ki'e do'oi b_jonas
07:10 < gleki> it disappered from the left sidebar because i couldnt fit it into any design
07:11 < Ilmen> je'e
07:11 < Ilmen> ki'e jungau
07:11 < Ilmen> co'o mi'e barkla
07:12 < Ilmen> si
07:12 < Ilmen> rafsi: bartu
07:12 < mensi> zo'oi bar .e zo'oi bart rafsi zo bartu
07:12 < Ilmen> .o'u
07:13 < b_jonas> I'd like a good word for "x1 occurrs in x2" or something. I keep trying to use various constructions with {cmene} or {mupli} or other words, but nothing really works, and it seems to come up often.
07:13 < gleki> example?
07:14 < b_jonas> gleki: one from earlier today was, let me find it
07:14 < gleki> I still think this needs to be replaced: "Lojban (pronounced [ˈloʒban]) is an experiment in human language – a constructed language defined using predicate logic"
07:14 < gleki> i mean "predicate logic" part
07:14 < gleki> it's not attractive and not elucidating.
07:14 < b_jonas> {i ca lo pu cabnicte mi fi'o te krefu li pa senva lo mupli be lo jbobau be'o fasnu}
07:15 < gleki> how many people think "i wish i could speak predicate logic" ?
07:15 < gleki> no one probably
07:15 < gleki> b_jonas: so what's you problem?
07:15 < b_jonas> then there's from yesterday when I tried to say both that a text has many occurances of some word or construct, or that a construct is made of two words
07:16 < gleki> please paste full English examples to translate
07:16 < b_jonas> gleki: I like {mupli} but I don't think it's a good fit there (case in point, zipcpi didn't understand my sentence)
07:16 < b_jonas> gleki: I'll try to make one (I didn't make these from complete English sentences)
07:17 < zipcpi> Yeah, it was and is still an important design goal of Lojban, but is probably too "jargony" for marketing purposes
07:17 < b_jonas> Btw I'd also like a generic word for "text", any quantity from a sentence to a lot, and any form, spoken or written.
07:18 < zipcpi> Well... actually I did almost say that. But I'm weird :p
07:18 < gleki> zipcpi: if you can find better words, maybe on the same page i'd e very glad to discuss your proposals with others http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
07:18 < b_jonas> gleki: full English example for that would be "Tonight for the first time I had a dream in which lojban has occurred." maybe? Hmm
07:18 < b_jonas> I don't think that's idiomatic English
07:19 < zipcpi> But I'm suppose we're all a little mad here :p
07:19 < gleki> sei mi stace, I don't know what makes Lojban attractive to me. The main thing is that its fully parsed, metonymy and raising are being dealt with. We don't say "the book is interesting" but instead "the content of the book is interesting". These are the most important features of Lojban to me. Now how to say that in one sentence?
07:20 < b_jonas> Maybe that one from a few days ago would be better, "There are very few articles [gadri] in this text, and a lot of adverbial clauses [which I translated as {me la .adverb. me zo fi'o jufra}], both single-word and multi-word ones.
07:20 < b_jonas> gleki: funny, that's not what makes lojban attractive for me, and it's often not how I'm using lojban either.
07:20 < gleki> b_jonas: ca lo lamji nicte mi pare'u ku senva lo nu la lojban [cu co'e]
07:20 < gleki> or use tu'a
07:21 < gleki> b_jonas: so'u gadri cu pagbu do'i 
07:21 < b_jonas> gleki: {lo nu la lojban co'e}? hmm
07:22 < gleki> So i guess you need a verb " was a participant" but this isnt relevant in your second example.
07:22 < b_jonas> gleki: I don't like {tu'a la .lojban} because I don't want to say "I dreamt about lojban", but just "I dreamt about something, I'm not telling the theme, and lojban has incidentally occurred in the dream."
07:22 < gleki> aha
07:22 < gleki> a problem
07:22 < b_jonas> gleki: was a participant is {zvati} except that's sometimes ambiguous with its newere meaning "co-located"
07:23 < b_jonas> but "participant" is the original meaning IMO
07:23 < zipcpi> There is zo'e pe or the experimental shortening, zo'ei
07:23 < gleki> yes, if zvati is not only about location then bu'u shouldn't be either. welcome again, Mr. {tu'i}. long time no see.
07:24 < gleki> en: participe
07:24 < mensi> participe = x1 participates in x2 (event) |>>> See also zukte, se cuntu |>>> gleki
07:24 < gleki> hm
07:24 < gleki> even worse
07:24 < b_jonas> I also tried to use {te se te su'o mei} (without the place flips of course) but it doesn't work too well
07:24 < gleki> should {lo participe bi'ai zukte}? no one knows
07:25 < gleki> Lojban was an element of that world, situation. But how can objects be parts of situations? and Lojban isnt even an object.
07:27 < zipcpi> n l j d c m s
07:28 < zipcpi> Did I get that?
07:35 < gleki> si'au
07:36 < gleki> b_jonas: probably i would indeed atke some new word. i dont remember any similar verb from La Bangu formalisations. and official gimste doesnt deal with such problems. maybe, we can use {participe}
07:36 < gleki> *indeed take
07:38 < b_jonas> gleki: a new word for what exactly?
07:38 < b_jonas> with what meaning
07:38 < gleki> Oh, well. In Wikipedia Lojban stnds betwee knowledge representation languages like CycL and speakable languages like Esperanto. May be start from there? Lojban is a language for knowing how we know, learning how we learn.
07:38 < gleki> b_jonas: an element is a participant of a situation
07:39 < gleki> an actor, not necessarily conscious
07:39 < gleki> I would use {gasnu} but {lo gasnu} is one of the central elements
07:41 < b_jonas> can't we use {zvati} for that and have a new word for co-located?
07:42 < gleki> actually i know one verb that you probably need. it's {fanbu/fau} from Gleki's subjunctives. You need something like {mi senva lo fanbu be tu'a la lojban}. As you can see both fanbu1 and fanbu2 are events
07:42 < gleki> b_jonas: i think {zvati} is fine. im just worried over {bu'u}.
07:43 < b_jonas> ({stuzva} or something)
07:43 < gleki> jbo: diklo
07:43 < mensi> diklo = x1 se stuzi x2 noi pagbu x3 gi'e se steci lo ka stuzi x1 kei lo pagbu be x3 |>>> stuzi; pagbu; steci |>>>
07:43 < mensi> xorxes
07:43 < gleki> en: dilo
07:43 < mensi> 2 da se tolcri: krokodilo, xejrespa
07:43 < gleki> en: diklo
07:43 < mensi> diklo = x1 is local to x2; x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3; x1 is regional |>>> Indicates a specific location/
07:43 < mensi> value within a range; e.g. a hits b.  What is the locality on b that a hits?  Thus x1 is associated with a specific
07:43 < mensi> narrow region/interval x2 of wider space/range x3.  See also cmavo list di'o, jibni, zvati, cpana, nenri, lamji, stuzi,
07:43 < mensi> tcila. |>>> officialdata
07:44 < gleki> di'o, tu'i ...
07:44 < b_jonas> {bu'u} means co-located with, https://lojban.github.io/cll/10/28/ is clear enough
07:44 < gleki> jbo: bu'u
07:44 < mensi> bu'u = [FAhA3] fi'o se zvati |>>> zvati |>>> xorxes
07:45 < b_jonas> the CLL's and the cmavo list's definition is older than that
07:45 < b_jonas> heck, the cmavo list's is even clearer:
07:46 < b_jonas> "bu'u = coincident with; location tense relation/direction; coincident with/at the same place as; space equivalent of ca"
07:46 < gleki> so {se stuzi = diklo fi zi'o}
07:46 < b_jonas> you can't be much clearer than that
07:46 < gleki> bu'u/ca reflect space/time distinction
07:47 < b_jonas> sure. {ca} is for same time, {bu'u} is for same space.
07:47 < zipcpi> I still kinda like {kuspe} for period
07:48 < zipcpi> At least for the date system... if redefining de'i to also accept periods is not too crazy a change
07:51 < Vanlamigu> If I had to use {de'i} to express a period, I'd use {bi'i}: de'i li 2009 bi'i li 2015
07:52 < zipcpi> Sorry, I don't mean a defined period, I mean a length in time
07:52 < zipcpi> Like "three years and four days"
07:53 < Vanlamigu> Then I'd use {su'i}: {ze'a lo nanca be li ci be'o su'i lo djedi be li vo}
07:54 < zipcpi> Does ISO week date start at Sunday or Monday?
07:54 < zipcpi> *day-of-the-week
07:54 < zipcpi> Monday
07:54 < zipcpi> OK
07:59 < b_jonas> gleki: how about when I want to say the other phrse, that such and such occurs many times or few times in a text?
08:00 < gleki> b_jonas: just PA SUMTI ?
08:01 < b_jonas> gleki: but how exactly? let me repeat the English translation I tried to give above
08:01 < b_jonas> Maybe that one from a few days ago would be better, "There are very few articles [gadri] in this text, and a lot of adverbial clauses [which I translated as {me la .adverb. me zo fi'o jufra}], both single-word and multi-word ones."
08:01 < b_jonas> I used {cmene} for that but I don't think that works well.
08:02 < gleki> so'u gadri cu pagbu do'i
08:03 < gleki> en:adverb
08:03 < mensi> 10 da se tolcri: adverbi, adverbivla, adverbu, fi'oi, xoi, ja'aku, mulno, naku, ralju,
08:03 < mensi> zifre
08:03 < b_jonas> yeah, someone mentioned {adverbi}, but meh
08:03 < b_jonas> fine, it can be {.adverbi} if you prefer
08:04 < b_jonas> so {.adverbi bridi} if you wish
08:05 < b_jonas> hmm, actually I think I said {me la .adverb. me zo fi'o terbri}
08:05 < gleki> en:adverbi
08:05 < mensi> adverbi = x1 is an adverbial adjunct (adverb or adverbial clause) meaning x2 in language
08:05 < mensi> x3
08:05 < b_jonas> ({jufra} doesn't make sense there)
08:05 < gleki> so'i adverbi poi gunma re jonai pa valsi  cu pagbu do'i
08:06 < gleki> y
08:06 < gleki> so'i adverbi poi se pagbu re jonai pa valsi cu pagbu do'i
08:06 < gleki> although guna specifies the full set so it's better
08:06 < gleki> *gunma
08:07 < gleki> i ta'o mi ca tavla la mukti i my na djica lo ka muvgau lo LLG notci lo dizlo
08:07 < gleki> i ua coi la mukti
08:07 < _mukti_> coi la gleki
08:08 < b_jonas> gleki: {pagbu}? ok, and how do you say the "both single-word and multi-word ones"?
08:08 < gleki> xu do mo'u catlu lo papri poi mi stika
08:10 < _mukti_> ma papri
08:10 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Welcome!0/en
08:11 < gleki> so'i adverbi poi me lo gunma be lo re valsi be'o joi lo gunmabe lo pa valsi cu pagbu do'i
08:11 < gleki> b_jonas: but im not sure how JA inside inner relative clauses work.
08:12 < zipcpi> .uo http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Proposal:_loi_lerfu_tcita_detri;_the_final_word_on_the_problem_of_dates_and_times%3F
08:13 < gleki> zipcpi: mi ba za je zinai tcidu
08:13 < b_jonas> je'e (I'd say {za'u} instead of {re} because it isn't always exactly two words, but sure)
08:13 < gleki> zipcpi: i ki'e
08:14 < b_jonas> so {pagbu} and {gunma}
08:14 < gleki> b_jonas: i still think {so'i adverbi poi gunma re je pa valsi  cu pagbu do'i} works. someone with better inderstanding of scope of JA should comment.
08:14 < gleki> oops
08:15 < gleki> {jonai}
08:15 < gleki> so'i adverbi poi gunma re jonai pa valsi  cu pagbu do'i
08:15 < b_jonas> so I did have all the words I needed, I just had to figure out which one to use when how
08:16 < gleki> Many adverbial phrases that are masses of 2 or 3 words are parts of do'i
08:19 < b_jonas> ki'e la gleki
08:19 < _mukti_> gleki: I see the page, and I think it is undesirable to bury the mention of LLG at the bottom of the page, but I've got better things to do than argue this to death
08:19 < b_jonas> hehe, now you're confusing it more
08:19 < b_jonas> "re jonai pa valsi" and "of 2 or 3 words"
08:19 < b_jonas> how does that even work?
08:20 < gleki> _mukti_: okay how about now? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
08:21 < gleki> b_jonas: ehm, a mass that has X elements. X is either 2 or 1
08:22 < gleki> compare {so'i valsi} - it's an imprecise number. The same for {re jonai pa}
08:22 < _mukti_> Let's do the previous version. Seriously: You and I both have better things to do than debate this placement. Aesthetically, I actually prefer the previous version. But I maintain that it is important to continue to improve the visibility and transparency of LLG. I will look for other ways to do so.
08:22 < gleki> _mukti_: do you like the last version or not? If yes let's stop at that and wait for better times.
08:23 < _mukti_> I accept the previous version, with the notice about LLG in the footer.
08:23 < b_jonas> From how we can't agree what the important features of lojban are, I'm reminded to http://www.xkcd.com/566/ “Unfortunately, no one can explain what Lojban is. You have to see it for yourself.”
08:23 < gleki> _mukti_: then take any version. And I will publish a calm message to the mriste nevertheless. I'm insterested in guskant's opinion since she understands something in this field imo.
08:24 < _mukti_> mi ji'a sinma la .guskant.
08:25 < gleki> _mukti_: any progress with putting links to the sidebar? maybe i should try? i will do on a copy
08:25 < gleki> language links
08:26 < _mukti_> I haven't tried that yet, but I think the current version is acceptable, since you can still immediately see the news and the twitter notifications.
08:26 < _mukti_> BTW, the twitter RSS feed is much better in LMW than in tiki, since LMW understands RSS2.
08:26 < _mukti_> (The tiki omitted the tweet bodies.)
08:26 < gleki> _mukti_: note that the left sidebar can sometimes be tall due to "whats links here" lists.
08:27 < gleki> Twitter is awesome here.
08:27 < _mukti_> I think we could replace the expanded "what links here" with the link to the special page.
08:27 < _mukti_> After all, many such lists are truncated with ellipsis
08:27 < _mukti_> Yes, I'm very happy about the twitter feed.
08:29 < gleki> _mukti_: ellipsis because i didnt want he scrollbar to appear. But I wanted backlinks to be visible without any clicks.
08:29 < gleki> *the scrollbar
08:30 < _mukti_> It's good that there's an indication that the list is truncated. But I think we ought to consider either truncating more aggressively, or not expanding that list.
08:30 < gleki> So the most important question left is ... the actual content of the front page like what is lojban.
08:30 < _mukti_> .i xu la .ilmen. cu jundi
08:30 < gleki> _mukti_: i can trunctae to just 5 links? or 3 links
08:31 < Zyxl> Learning Lojban section should be combined into http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Learning_materials._Secondary_links (and the page renamed).
08:31 < gleki> that page is super-lengthy
08:32 < Zyxl> Otherwise the links are inconsistent; some are anchors to futher down the front page and some are to other pages.
08:32 < Zyxl> Community should also link to another page.
08:33 < gleki> Maybe just remove that part with links? i didnt originally conceived it.
08:33 < gleki> I wanted the page without any table of contents
08:33 < gleki> I wanted the front page without any table of contents
08:34 < gleki> xorlo message will disappear relatively soon
08:35 < Zyxl> How else does the user know where to go next? There are hardly any links on the front page other than those on the left pane.
08:35 < gleki> More basic information ...
08:35 < gleki> Other learning materials ...
08:35 < gleki> Lojban around the world - other ways of communication ...
08:35 < gleki> More info ...
08:36 < Zyxl> The front page should be readable and not lots of text; its for finding something more specific on the website.
08:36 < gleki> So I imagine having only basic links for each section with links like above to more complete pages.
08:36 < gleki> I imagined it!
08:36 < gleki> But currently it's again huge
08:37 < gleki> _mukti_: truncated to 5, although bugs may exist
08:44 < gleki> Zyxl: i agree and will continue shrinking this test front page
08:44 < b_jonas> off topic: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3561
08:48 < Zyxl> I don't think you should get rid of those links though, they just need slight alteration and perhaps moving somewhere else.
08:56  * nuzba @leanatas: @zatmaker L'esperanto était un début. Le Lojban est mieux construit.    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1GhpfnM]
09:04 < zipcpi> What does that mean
09:04 < zipcpi> ju'i gugl. fanva
09:05 < zipcpi> "Esperanto was a start. Lojban is better built."
09:05 < Vanlamigu> Esperanto was a start. Lojban is more well-constructed.
09:05 < zipcpi> Yeah seems that way. I know a bit about Latin roots.
09:06 < gleki> mieux => me'a
09:07 < Vanlamigu> mieux -> xagmau
09:08 < Vanlamigu> I do prefer the new front page
09:09 < Vanlamigu> (That is, I prefer http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en over http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban )
09:09 < gleki> vablo LLG notci cu mo ma'i do i ei dizlo xu
09:09 < gleki> oops
09:09 < Vanlamigu> vablo doi pablo
09:09 < gleki> Vanlamigu: lo LLG notci cu mo ma'i do i ei dizlo xu
09:10 < gleki> dizlo ji galtu
09:10 < Vanlamigu> xu zoi gy. and also serves as the official web site of the Logical Language Group (LLG) .gy
09:10 < gleki> pu dizlo http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Welcome!0/en&direction=prev&oldid=113806
09:10 < gleki> Vanlamigu: go'i
09:11 < Vanlamigu> je'e .i ku'i pe'i zoi gy. This web site is dedicated to documenting Lojban and the activities of the Lojban-using community .gy gapru .ei
09:11 < gleki> i'a
09:11 < gleki> i mi muvgau
09:13 < gleki> i mo'u
09:15 < Zyxl> Who writes website as two words?
09:25 < gleki> fixed
09:29 < Zyxl> What about the first paragraph?
09:31 < Vanlamigu> ki'u ma muvgau lo lanci
09:31 < Vanlamigu> .i mi pu nelci lo nu pu zvati ma kau
09:33 < gleki> mi lanli
09:41 < gleki> i mo'u cikre
09:43 < gocti> cipr: nu'i ti ge mi pu ku gi tu ta da nu'u ti klama
09:43 < gocti> y
09:43 < gocti> su
09:46 < zipcpi> co'o
09:46 < gleki> Lojban is unambiguous in syntax. Natural languages often have ambiguous sentences — does "He's left" mean that he's still here or that he's gone? Lojban systematically eliminates this.
09:46 < gleki> this example is wrong
09:46 < gleki> have a better one?
09:47 < Zyxl> I didn't get it either.
09:47 < Zyxl> Your/my left/right?
09:49 < Vanlamigu> It's not wrong
09:49 < gleki> unambiguous in syntax
09:49 < gleki> ""He's left" mean that he's still here or that he's gone?" - this is just vague
09:50 < Vanlamigu> .ambigu .i su'o re da smuni zoi gy. left .gy
09:50 < gleki> Vanlamigu: je'e i ja'o na srana lo gerna
09:50 < gleki> i srana lo smuske
09:51 < Vanlamigu> ja'a srana lo gerna .i zoi gy. he has left .gy gerna frica zoi gy. he is left .gy
09:51 < gleki> xm
09:52 < gleki> i ja'o srana ge lo gerna gi lo smuske
09:52 < gleki> i iepei
09:52 < mensi> mi tugni i ie mi tugni
09:52 < Vanlamigu> la mensi cu tugni .i ja'o jetnu
09:52 < gleki> Vanlamigu: i ku'i mi ge'enmo i au srana lo gerna enai lo smuske
09:52 < gleki> pei
09:53 < Vanlamigu> ge'e sai .i ga'a do lo tsurixi vinji jufra cu srana lo gerna ji lo smuske
09:53 < durka42> coi
09:53 < Vanlamigu> .i lo darvistci jufra cu .ambigu
09:53 < durka42> coi kibjasyselkei vlajaspu zo'o
09:53 < Vanlamigu> .i gernambigu
09:53 < gleki> Vanlamigu: i nandu preti lo prenu cu frica zu'ai lo ka jinvi lo du'u lo gerna cu mokau
09:54 < Vanlamigu> coi mi'e lo  ckikyvla
09:54 < gleki> i je'u ga'a da gerna ambigu i ku'i ka'e te simlu lo ka na gerna ambigu
09:55 < gleki> i mi jinvi lo du'u srana lo si'o me'oi zero pe lo bauske ja banske i ku'i lo drata cu frica jinvi
09:55 < Vanlamigu> go'i
09:55 < Vanlamigu> .u'i
09:56 < Vanlamigu> .i ro ma'a zgana lo nu pu casnu
09:56 < gleki> i ku'i do na pu piksku
09:56 < gleki> i ku'i na'e mi pu finti lo si'o me'oi zero i ei mi sruma ma i ei sruma lo nu lo banske cu se ganzu
09:56 < Vanlamigu> pu no'e cinri .i la .and. pu cusku lo ralju
09:57 < gleki> la and pu cusku lo se du'u lo mi se jinvi cu frica lo se jinvi be lo ralju banskepre
09:57 < gleki> i ta'o la'a la and ba lojbo jatna vau la'a i je mi u'i ba zanru la'a
09:57 < Vanlamigu> .u'u cu'i mi jdika je jdika lo ka se cinri lo ca se casnu
09:58 < Vanlamigu> .i ua cizra
09:58 < gleki> "Lojban is machine parsable, which allows potential new explorations in the fields of artificial intelligence and machine translation." => "... is parsable by computers" to prevent tautology.
09:58 < gleki> no'i ei mi zanru lo nu ma jatna
09:58 < Vanlamigu> .i cizra .i la .and. cu sanji ji'i no fasnu pe lo cabna jbogu'e .i ku'i la .and. cu .y ba curmi so'i da
09:59 < gleki> curmi ma sa'e
09:59 < gleki> i no drata cu kakne
09:59 < Vanlamigu> lo kalsa sai ui sai zo'o
09:59 < gleki> uanai
09:59 < Vanlamigu> .u'i
09:59 < gleki> i xu srana lo bangu
09:59 < Vanlamigu> kakna ma fa no drata
09:59 < gleki> i LLG na dunli BPFK
09:59 < Vanlamigu> .i lo jatna ma zukte .i zasti po'o
09:59 < Vanlamigu> .i jo'a na dunli
10:00 < gleki> ie zasti po'o i seki'u bo mi na djuno lo du'u abu ba zurmi makau
10:00 < gleki> *curmi
10:00 < gleki> peo "Lojban is machine parsable, which allows potential new explorations in the fields of artificial intelligence and machine translation." => "... is parsable by computers" to prevent tautology.
10:00 < gleki> pei "Lojban is machine parsable, which allows potential new explorations in the fields of artificial intelligence and machine translation." => "... is parsable by computers" to prevent tautology.
10:00 < Vanlamigu> ie .i ku'i sa'u ko zgana lo jbopre .i so'i ri cu se vajni sai lo nu lo LLG jatna cu jinvi ma kau .i tinbe sa'e nai ru'e
10:01 < Vanlamigu> .i lo .irci jbopre na go'e .i ku'i so'i lo mriste jbopre
10:01 < gleki> au lo drata jbore poi akti co'a cmima lo LLG ralju kamni
10:01 < gleki> i ji'a au lo drata jbopre poi akti co'a cmima LLG
10:01 < gleki> i mu'a la danr
10:02 < gleki> e la cirko
10:02 < Vanlamigu> xu zasti fa su'o cinryme'a be lo ka cmima lo ralju kamni
10:02 < gleki> i ku'i mi nu'o kucli lo nu xukau la re jbopre cu djica
10:04 < Vanlamigu> la mukti cu troci lo ka gau ce'u LLG co'a vajni
10:08 < gleki> no'e cinri mi i cinri mi falonu le bangu co'a jai frili fai lo ka se tadni
10:10 < gocti> lu jai frili fai li'o zo'u ma judri lo me BPFK .eiste .i ju'e .ei jmina
10:11 < Vanlamigu> xu zasti .i .e'e gau zasti
10:12 < Vanlamigu> .i so'o uitki papri cu srana
10:12 < gleki> lo ralju papri co'a tatpygau mi
10:12 < gocti> xu slabu fa su'o drata be ju'oi http://mw.lojban.org/papri/ToDo
10:13 < gleki> u'i li'a na srana
10:13 < gleki> si mapti
10:13 < gocti> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_To-Do sei laldo
10:14 < Vanlamigu> ie laldo .i ku'i ka'e ningau
10:20 < PrincessBecca> http://typedrummer.com/46miq9
10:26 < gocti> http://typedrummer.com/btt00m bu'a'a
10:27 < PrincessBecca> u'i
10:27 < gocti> lo nu te sumti sanji zo'u cinmo lo du'u jibni .i ku'i mi co'a se fanza da
10:28 < gocti> cipr: nu'i ti ge mi pu ku gi tu ta nu'u ti klama
10:28 < cipr> ([{nu'i <(¹FA ti¹) (¹ge [{FE mi} {pu ku}] gi [{FE tu} {FI ta}]¹)> nu'u} {FI'A ti}] [CU {klama VAU}])
10:28 < gocti> cipr: ti ge mi pu ku gi tu ta ti klama
10:28 < cipr> ([{FA ti} {ge <(¹FE mi¹) (¹pu ku¹)> gi <(¹FE tu¹) (¹FI ta¹)>} {FI ti}] [CU {klama VAU}])
10:28 < gocti> cipr: nu'i ti ge mi pu ku gi tu ta tu nu'u ti klama
10:28 < cipr> ([{nu'i <(¹FA ti¹) (¹ge [{FE mi} {pu ku}] gi [{FE tu} {FI ta}]¹) (¹FI tu¹)> nu'u} {FI'A ti}] [CU {klama VAU}])
10:28 < durka42> ue la .cipr. mo
10:28 < durka42> si cu mo
10:28 < gocti> .ilmentufa versiio
10:28 < durka42> je'e
10:28 < gocti> .i kakne su'o pu na se kakne
10:29 < durka42> xu mintu la .alta
10:29 < gocti> cipr: lo klama be ti bei fi je fo tu'a lo panka bei lo relxima
10:29 < cipr> ([FA {lo <klama (¹[be {FE ti}] [bei {<fi je fo> <tu'a (²lo panka KU²) LU'U>}] [bei {FU <lo relxima KU>}] BE'O¹)> KU}] VAU)
10:29 < gocti> na ku
10:30 < gleki> frica fi ma
10:30 < gleki> i za'a
10:30 < gocti> lo te pruce ku ra'u
10:30 < gleki> i io
10:30 < gleki> i xu prane
10:30 < gleki> y
10:30 < gocti> na go'i .i mu'a kakne no da pe lo brirebla
10:31 < gleki> i xu do mo'u favgau
10:31 < gleki> cipr: lo mo be gau do bei fi do bei do
10:31 < cipr> ([FA {lo <mo (¹[be {gau do}] [bei {fi do}] [bei {FO do}] BE'O¹)> KU}] VAU)
10:32 < gleki> cipr: lo mo be do bei gau do bei fi do bei do
10:32 < cipr> ([FA {lo <mo (¹[be {FE do}] [bei {gau do}] [bei {fi do}] [bei {FO do}] BE'O¹)> KU}] VAU)
10:32 < gleki> cipr: lo mo be fu do bei gau do bei fi do bei do
10:32 < cipr> ([FA {lo <mo (¹[be {fu do}] [bei {gau do}] [bei {fi do}] [bei {FO do}] BE'O¹)> KU}] VAU)
10:32 < gleki> xu pilno lo drata be PEG
10:32 < gocti> pilno PEG
10:32 < gleki> ua io
10:33 < gleki> i a'o do ba gubgau lo krasi
10:33 < gocti> va'o lo nu da djica co tolcinkygau zo'u pe'u do
10:33 < gocti> .i gubni https://github.com/mezohe/ilmentufa/commits/morfologi
10:33 < gleki> cipr: lo klama be do ce'e do
10:34 < cipr> ([???] VAU)
10:34 < gocti> .oi
10:34 < gleki> exp: lo klama be do ce'e do
10:34 < mensi> ([{lo <klama (¹be do BEhO¹)> KU} {ce'e do}] VAU)
10:34 < gocti> cipr: lo klama be do ce'e do bei do
10:34 < cipr> SyntaxError: Expected [rR] but "b" found.
10:34 < gleki> off: lo klama be do ce'e do
10:34 < mensi> ([{lo <klama (¹be do BEhO¹)> KU} {ce'e do}] VAU)
10:34 < gleki> cinri
10:34 < gleki> gerna: lo klama be do ce'e do
10:34 < mensi> (0[{<lo (1klama [be do BE'O])1 KU> ce'e do} VAU])0
10:35 < gocti> ku'i .ei na spaji
10:38 < gocti> cipr: mi ce'e do pe'e ti ce'e ta
10:38 < cipr> SyntaxError: Expected [nN] or [rR] but "p" found.
10:38 < gocti> cipr: mi ce'e do pe'e je ti ce'e ta
10:38 < cipr> ([{<FA mi> ce'e <FE do>} je {<FA ti> ce'e <FE ta>}] VAU)
10:38 < gleki> i ua mutce djavaskripti
10:38 < Ilmen> mi .i'enmo lo nu do jmina lu jai frili fai ma li'u lo fuzykamni .aiste doi la gocti
10:39 < gocti> go'i .i lo sintasa pe PEGJS cu mabla milxe
10:39 < Ilmen> ki'e xagzenzau
10:39 < gleki> cipr: mi do mo
10:39 < cipr> ([{FA mi} {FE do}] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:40 < gleki> cipr: mi be do mo
10:40 < cipr> ([FA mi] [CU {<(¹[be {FE do}] BE'O¹) mo> VAU}])
10:40 < gleki> cipr: mi mo be do ko'a
10:40 < cipr> ([FA mi] [CU {<mo (¹[be {FE do}] BE'O¹)> <(¹FI'A ko'a¹) VAU>}])
10:40 < gleki> yyy
10:40 < gleki> cipr: mi be do ko'a  mo
10:40 < cipr> SyntaxError: Expected [nN] or [rR] but "b" found.
10:40 < gleki> li'a
10:40 < gocti> ke'u djuno no da pe lo rebla
10:41 < gleki> dukti gaspo vau zo'o
10:41 < gocti> .iep.
10:41 < gleki> i lo gaspo cu djuno no da pe lo tolrebla
10:41 < Vanlamigu> djuno no da pe lo rebla fa lo na'e .saiadjin.
10:41 < gleki> cipr: mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mo
10:41 < cipr> ([{FA mi} {FE mi} {FI mi} {FO mi} {FU mi} {FUNDEFINED mi} {FUNDEFINED mi} {FUNDEFINED mi}] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:42 < gleki> na sarcu
10:42 < Vanlamigu> FUN FUN FUN
10:42 < demize> fun defined!
10:42 < gocti> le
10:42 < Vanlamigu> le zei le
10:42 < gleki> cipr: fu mi mi mi fe mi mi mo
10:42 < cipr> ([{fu mi} {FUNDEFINED mi} {FUNDEFINED mi} {fe mi} {FI mi}] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:42 < gleki> cipr: fi mi mi mi fe mi mi mo
10:42 < cipr> ([{fi mi} {FO mi} {FU mi} {fe mi} {FUNDEFINED mi}] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:43 < gleki> cipr: fi mi mi fe mi mi mo
10:43 < cipr> ([{fi mi} {FO mi} {fe mi} {FU mi}] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:43 < gleki> xm
10:43 < Vanlamigu> .u'e
10:43 < gleki> na djuno
10:43 < gleki> cipr: fi mi fi mi mi mo
10:43 < cipr> ([{fi mi} {fi mi} {FO mi}] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:44 < gleki> cipr: mi
10:44 < cipr> ([FA mi] VAU)
10:44 < durka42> cipr: mi jai co'e fai do
10:44 < cipr> ([FA mi] [CU {<jai co'e> <(¹fai do¹) VAU>}])
10:45 < gleki> cipr: lo klama be fa mi bei do
10:45 < cipr> ([FA {lo <klama (¹[be {fa mi}] [bei {FE do}] BE'O¹)> KU}] VAU)
10:45 < durka42> cipr: broda gi'e brode vau ma'a
10:45 < cipr> ([CU {broda VAU}] [gi'e {CU <brode vau>} {<FI'A ma'a> VAU}])
10:45 < gleki> rebla
10:45 < Vanlamigu> dat spam
10:45 < durka42> .u'u mi na tcidu lo purci
10:46 < Vanlamigu> tu'a lo purci cu frili .i ku'i ba'e mi kakne lo ka tcidu lo balvi !
10:47 < gleki> Vanlamigu: ju'o do tcidu lo nu la and cu zasti i na cinri
10:48 < gleki> Vanlamigu: i xu la morsi ba morsi
10:48 < gleki> i li'a ca da ba morsi
10:48 < gleki> i ku'i ca ma
10:48 < gleki> i ji'a cama la gleki ba mulgau CC
10:51 < durka42> ca lo nu la xadba jmive xi ci co'a zasti
10:51 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Dot_Side
10:51 < gleki> xu do junri i xu ciksi la datsaid
10:51 < durka42> mi puzi te mrilu .i mo
10:52 < durka42> si'au zo .datsaid. pu sinxa lo stidi .ije nau sinxa lo se stidi
10:53 < gleki> au lo ve ciksi cu zasti
10:53 < durka42> li'a la .datsaid. cu jinga .i lo citri cu se finti lo jinga
10:53 < gleki> na cinri mi i au lo ve ciksi
10:53 < gleki> i lo prenu ca kucli i mi na kakne lo ka dunda pe'a lo judri
10:53 < durka42> lo nenri be le tanxe na ve ciksi xu
10:54 < gleki> la'a
10:54 < gleki> i CLL ca mo
10:56 < durka42> laldo
10:56 < durka42> ca'o se ningau soi masno
11:38  * nuzba @cmcbot: Using UML to understand Lojban [http://bit.ly/1QUrkJq]
11:57 < Vanlamigu> Why can't ji'a and po'o be forethought Q_Q
11:59 < Vanlamigu> It's not only annoying for experienced speakers that you have to close off sumti to attach ji'a or po'o, but it's also annoying if you're a teacher.
11:59 < Vanlamigu> They know {lo prenu cu klama}, but then to say "The dogs goes, too" you have to add a mysterious {ku} {lo prenu ku ji'a [cu] klama}
12:00 < durka42> we could make BAhE analogs for them
12:00 < Vanlamigu> dog*
12:00 < phma> lo ji'a gerku cu klama
12:00 < Vanlamigu> Yes, but that placement is very unnatural.
12:02  * nuzba @464161niftg: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban お、新しくされた表紙的なページには「中立性」に関する文言が最早存在しない。.i'ero'e [http://bit.ly/1e9gMbl]
12:22 < durka42> Vanlamigu: re: teaching, I see how it's annoying yes, but could it be spun as a positive in that it's a hook for teaching terminators, which ya gotta learn eventually anyway?
12:22 < Vanlamigu> The thing is that {ko'a ji'a} is different from {lo broda KU ji'a}, because we never say {lo broda ku} ever, unless we attach UI
12:22 < Vanlamigu> That's what makes it weird
12:23 < durka42> yeah {ku} doesn't get a lot of use
12:23 < durka42> except occasionally when it elides other terminators, like {bai lo nu broda ku}
12:29  * nuzba @464161niftg: "This file contains extracts from Ju'i Lobypli on the relationship between    Esperanto and Lojban." ... http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/lojb_esp.txt [http://bit.ly/1QUxCJ1]
12:33  * nuzba @464161niftg: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Presenting_Lojban からリンクされてゐたやつだけど、エスペラントの「16条文法」と比較しながらの説明がやはり既になされてゐたんか…tijlanさんのあれとの関連性は如何に。 [http://bit.ly/1QUxUQe]
12:41 < phma> ka'e crepu xu lo cteki?
12:42 < durka42> mo
12:44 < phma> I'm translating and it starts "tax-collectors and sinners".
12:48 < durka42> ua
12:48 < durka42> pe'i zo crepu ja'a mapti
12:49 < Vanlamigu> cpacu ja lebna
12:50 < durka42> zerle'a zo'o
12:54  * nuzba @464161niftg: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Vagueness_and_ambiguity ここで示されてゐる用語の使ひ分けに倣ふと、「『意味的漠然性』を残しつつ『構文的多義性』を出来る限り除去する」みたいに説明できる？ [http://bit.ly/1Ps6fZM]
12:58  * nuzba @464161niftg: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Ambiguous_sentences_in_English {se xi vei mo'e zo'e no'a} [http://bit.ly/1QUBo58]
13:59 < Ilmen> .oi mi na ralte su'o mrijudri pe la .xelan. i mi na birti lo du'u ma kau notci benji tadji mapti
14:00 < durka42> X mo
14:01 < Ilmen> pu cpedu fi mi fe lo ka tavla lo fuzykamni cmima lo srana be lo jbovla smuvelski staile
14:01 < Ilmen> .i ku'i lo staile mupli poi la xelan cu dunda pu zvati lo zasni gi'e ja'e bo zi canci ja'e lo nu mi ca nau na ka'e pilno
14:02 < durka42> .oi dai
14:03 < Ilmen> ĭe
14:04 < Ilmen> cumki fa lo nu mi kakne lo ka notci benji do'e la .gugl.grup.
14:04 < durka42> lo ca lojbo velcki staile cu vricytce
14:04 < durka42> ie la .gugl. ralte lo citri be ro da .u'i
14:04 < durka42> cu*
14:05 < Ilmen> pu staile mupli jarco sepi'o lo zasni simsa be la pesxu bakfu
14:05 < Ilmen> si
14:05 < Ilmen> baktu
14:06 < durka42> je'e
14:06 < Vanlamigu> yahaours-jbovlaste@yahoo.com zasti .i ku'i na nibli lo du'u tcidu
14:06 < Ilmen> mu sofybakri cu zvati lo purci
14:06 < Ilmen> ua je'e .i cizra judri
14:09 < durka42> za'a pilno lo steci judri tezu'e lo nu rivbi lo spamysampre
14:10 < Ilmen> mi se zanfu'a .i faumlu fa lo nu no spamboto cu facki tau lo me mi moi
15:20 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:20 < durka42> co'o
15:26 < ldlework> someone should follow this guide and make a 2x3 6 region terrain for jbogu'e, http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Detailed_cross-region_terrain_making
15:27 < ldlework> alternatively, feel free to just pencil something out and take a picture
15:27 < ldlework> post it out here and we can talk through different ideas
15:28 < ldlework> oh this isn't the guide I was thinking about
15:29 < ldlework> this is the one, http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Cross-region_terrain_making_with_L3DT
15:29 < ldlework> but I guess we should follow the advice of the first page, and draw out our ideas first
15:31  * ldlework tickles the channel
15:32 < ldlework> My girlfriend and I have been downloading high-quality assets from various places and importing them into the sim, renaming them to standard naming convention and organizing them
15:32 < ldlework> We have quite a collection of high quality stuff that could be really useful for having fun with lojban
15:33 < durka42> sweet
15:33 < ldlework> dozens of fruits and vegitables and meats, and kitchenware, and pickled jars of various things and firepits with stoves and market stands full of fruit and so on
15:33 < ldlework> We could build a jbozarci
15:34 < ldlework> like a market street or something
15:34 < ldlework> also a bunch of farming stuff
15:34 < ldlework> like various crops and farming equipment
15:34 < ldlework> We've tried to find good stuff for making avatars, but is a lot harder to find
15:35 < durka42> jbozai .ai
15:35 < ldlework> We've found a handful of nice avatars, mostly furries or impossibly beautiful humans
15:35 < ldlework> But maybe building your own avatar should be something you do yourself, overtime
15:36 < ldlework> over time8
15:36 < durka42> ue xu do na jinvi lo du'u lo'e jbopre cu nalcu'i mletce
15:36 < ldlework> u'i
15:38 < ldlework> no jbopre cu ckaji lo ka mletce ku poi nalcu'i
15:38 < ldlework> ro lo ka nalcu'i cu na cumki
15:38 < durka42> ja'a li'a
15:38 < ldlework> hehe
15:40 < ldlework> I need to find an awesome tree pack
15:40 < ldlework> and just plants in general
15:41 < ldlework> also, I need help designing the terrain
15:41 < ldlework> Maybe some realtime shared drawing thing could help get that going
15:57 < Zyxl> I suggest looking at Blender for modelling (because it's free and open source - also there's a plug-in for generating terrains).
17:12 < rutytar_> xu su'o do sanji
17:16 < durka42> mi cikna
17:16 < rutytar_> coi
17:16 < durka42> coi mo
17:17 < rutytar_> mi na djuno la lojban
17:17 < durka42> .u'i je'unai za'a
17:26 < durka42> .oi ta'i ma ba'urtadji zoi dy. r .dy. noi dotco
17:37 < durka42> rutytar_: have you been learning?
17:38 < rutytar_> durka42: i have
17:39 < rutytar_> i'm up to chapter 7 of http://lojban.github.io/cll/
17:41 < durka42> nice!
17:43 < durka42> you should know that the CLL was published a while ago and a few small things are different in modern usage
17:43 < rutytar_> such as?
17:44 < durka42> for instance we use {lo} almost all the time instead of {le}, and you put pauses on both sides of names {la .rutytar.} instead of forbidding them to contain la/lai/doi
17:44 < durka42> those are the main ones
17:45 < durka42> of course people have all sorts of crazy ideas for grammar tweaks, but I wouldn't worry about that yet :)
17:46 < rutytar_> that's a common problem with things which haven't gotten big yet
17:46 < rutytar_> i'm glad english is allowed here though, i was a bit apprihensive
17:47 < rutytar_> ^ proper english
17:47 < durka42> if you get stuck going through the CLL, a lot of people recommend the wave lessons http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Lojban_Wave_Lessons or the crash course http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)
17:47 < durka42> (but learn from what works for you!)
17:47 < durka42> yes, english is allowed here
17:47 < durka42> and in #ckule, where there are no dumb questions
17:48 < rutytar_> awesome
17:48 < durka42> only in #jbosnu (which is pretty low traffic) natural languages are forbidden
17:48 < rutytar_> but esperanto is allowed?
17:48 < rutytar_> :p
17:48 < durka42> I dunno, I've only ever seen lojban in there :)
17:50 < rutytar_> how often do new people usually show up?
17:51 < durka42> interesting question, I'm not sure if I have an answer
17:52 < rutytar_> well... i kept putting off learning lojban because it seemed like such a useless skill
17:52 < durka42> :D it's fun though!
17:53 < rutytar_> it is
17:53 < rutytar_> it's beautiful too. i can't really help wanting to learn it
17:54 < rutytar_> but i figure being limited to talking to the type of person who also feels that way isn't such a bad deal
17:55 < rutytar_> durka42: how long have you been speaking/typing lojban?
17:55 < durka42> 3-4 years I guess
17:55 < rutytar_> do you feel fluent?
17:59 < durka42> well, not exactly
17:59 < durka42> I feel competent but not fluent
18:00 < durka42> we have been playing an online game of diplomacy in lojban these past few weeks and it has been really good language practice
18:00 < rutytar_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_%28game%29?
18:00 < durka42> that
18:02 < rutytar_> what's the community like, in your experience? mainly programmers, i'm guessing
18:15 < durka42> there are a lot of programmers
18:15 < durka42> but not all
18:15 < durka42> a few logicians
18:16 < rutytar_> cool
18:16 < rutytar_> durka42: one last question: my name was supposed to make sense in lojban... does it?
18:21 < durka42> fruit star?
18:21 < rutytar_> yeah
18:21 < rutytar_> fruit type of star
18:22 < durka42> .i'e
18:23 < rutytar_> ro tarci du dandu grute
18:24 < rutytar_> su'a
18:25 < rutytar_> thanks for answering my questions. i'll come back with more knowledge, hopefully
18:48 < Regex> I've just discovered Lojban, but it sounds more like gibberish than any other language I've encountered. Anyone else get the same feeling?
18:54 < durka42> well, not anymore :p
18:57 < durka42> I just started learning German in Duolingo and it sounds more like gibberish than lojban :p
18:57 < durka42> Regex: what do you mean though? the phonology?
18:58 < Regex> durka42: Honestly everything. I haven't found the patterns in it yet.
18:59 < Regex> Like, if I listen to Japanese there are lots of familar sounds and symbols. In french I can guess at about half the words
18:59 < Regex> Perhaps it is just lack of familiarity then
18:59 < durka42> well, if you speak romance languages most of the words won't be familiar, yeah
18:59 < durka42> Chinese had a big influence on the sounds of the gismu
19:00 < durka42> my favorite cognate is {bredi} though :)
19:00 < durka42> vlaste: bredi
19:00 < vlaste> bredi = x1 is ready/prepared for x2 (event).
19:18 < durka42> coi xrukla
19:19 < rutytar> i'o
19:32 < rutytar> durka42: xa do pu fanva su'o se ciska
19:33 < rutytar> xa do pu ciska su'e se fanva
19:35 < rutytar> *su'o
19:35 < durka42> mi fanva so'o me XKCD
19:35 < durka42> alexburka.com/lojban
19:36 < rutytar> i'e
19:39 < rutytar> lu zo'o ta jitfa .i .e'o xu do pendo mi http://xkcd.com/191/
19:46 < Regex> does 'la' mean 'learn'?
19:47 < rutytar> i'osai ti http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/gismu
19:49 < Regex> Ah then learn must be "crebi'o"
19:50 < rutytar> Regex: learn is cilre
19:50 < Regex> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/lojban_translated.png
19:51 < Regex> language is hard
19:51 < durka42> crebi'o means "to become an expert"
19:53 < Regex> ...the translation is a perfect example of how ambiguous our language use is. That's beautiful
19:58 < Regex> rutytar: The search feature on that is actually incredibly helpful. Thanks!
20:07 < rutytar> durka42: http://i.imgur.com/96iK6Mh.png xu ti xamgu
20:10 < rutytar> :( pu nabmi
20:12 < durka42> ua xu do te pixra
20:12 < durka42> banli
20:12 < durka42> ma nabmi?
20:14 < rutytar> http://i.imgur.com/81eukPG.png
20:14 < rutytar> pu fukpi nabmi
20:17 < rutytar> na te ciska pixra .i te ganzu pixre
20:20 < durka42> banli te ganzu .i .e'apei mi lebna
20:23 < rutytar> ti kampu
20:25 < rutytar> ca tolsti be mi tcidu ti
20:27 < durka42> didn't understand that last one
20:28 < rutytar> now time to read it :p
20:29 < rutytar> i think 'be' is the one i'm misusing
20:30 < rutytar> ca tolsti cu mi tcidu ti
20:30 < rutytar> xu zenba
20:34 < durka42> rutytar: {tcika} probably better for that meaning
20:35 < durka42> can I take that image? :)
20:35 < durka42> I keep meaning to get around to image-ifying them
20:35 < rutytar> you definitely can
20:35 < rutytar> http://xkcd.com/1350/xkcd-Regular.otf
20:47 < rutytar> durka42: xu ma traji cu lo do nelci ku fo la xkcd
20:47 < rutytar> (i'm pretty sure that was incorrect somehow)
20:50 < durka42> ma traji fo lo se nelci be do bei fo XKCD
20:53 < rutytar> traji nelci
20:53 < durka42> umm
20:53 < durka42> https://xkcd.com/413/
20:53 < durka42> mi nu'o fanva
20:53 < durka42> (to .u'i mi sampre tadni toi)
20:56 < rutytar> i'e
20:57 < durka42> wait, my fix for your translation was wrong
20:57 < durka42> sorry
20:57 < durka42> ma traji lo ka do nelci kei fo XKCD
20:57 < durka42> ^ better
20:58 < rutytar> ie
20:58 < durka42> also, a bunch of crazy revolutionaries (like me) think the third place of {traji} is lame and unnecessary
20:58 < durka42> so I'd say {ma traji lo ka do nelci kei XKCD} :)
20:59 < rutytar> that sounds accurate to me
21:01 < rutytar> xu do tadni lo rutni besna
21:02 < durka42> milxe
21:02 < durka42> mi ta'e tadni lo rutni te zgana
21:05 < rutytar> te is x3 of rutni?
21:06 < rutytar> oh wait, nevermind
21:07 < rutytar> xu do slabu la'o bayes-net?
21:08 < durka42> go'i
21:10 < rutytar> ma su'o valsi la'o bayes la lojban
21:10 < rutytar> xu zasti
21:11 < durka42> hmm
21:11 < durka42> la'a nai .u'i
21:11 < durka42> (with {la'o} you need delimiters: la'o gy. bayes .gy.)
21:11 < rutytar> ah
21:19 < rutytar> la la'apupala'ayuntri
21:19 < rutytar> e'enai
21:19 < durka42> eh?
21:20 < rutytar> la la'a pu pa la'a untri
21:20 < rutytar> o'o xu drani
21:21 < durka42> na drani .u'i
21:21 < rutytar> *o'i xu drani
21:21 < durka42> mi jimpe troci
21:21 < durka42> you're trying to translate "prior probability theory"?
21:22 < rutytar> "theory of (probability regarding prior probability)
21:22 < rutytar> "
21:24 < durka42> so, {la'a} is just an attitudinal, so we can't use it to make a tanru
21:24 < rutytar> i thought it was a rafsi
21:24 < durka42> it's a rafsi for {lasna} (had to look that up) but you'd only ever see it that way inside a lujvo
21:25 < durka42> as a word on its own it's an attitudinal
21:25 < rutytar> ua lakne
21:25 < durka42> yeah
21:25 < durka42> {nilyla'e} I guess would be probability
21:26 < rutytar> ui
21:27 < durka42> purci nilyla'e - prior probability
21:27 < rutytar> la nilyla'e pe pu nilyla'e cu drani
21:29 < durka42> {pe} connects two sumti
21:30 < durka42> the thing about tanru is you just string them together and you get the "type-of" relation by default!
21:31 < rutytar> purci nilyla'e nilyla'e?
21:32 < durka42> prior-probability probability
21:32 < durka42> I guess so
21:32 < rutytar> purci nilyla'e nilyla'e untri
21:32 < rutytar> o'i
21:34 < durka42> probably the last two {nilyla'e untri} should be grouped together, right?
21:35 < durka42> we want ((purci nilyla'e) (nilyla'e untri)), not (((purci nilyla'e) nilyla'e) untri)
21:35 < durka42> so it should be {purci nilyla'e ke nilyla'e untri} or {purci nilyla'e nilyla'e bo untri}
21:38 < rutytar> zo'o lakne
21:40 < rutytar> '"You confuse a high conditional likelihood from your hypothesis to the evidence with a high posterior probability of the hypothesis given the evidence," she said, as if that were all one short phrase in her own language.'
21:41 < rutytar> au mi fanva
21:44 < durka42> .i'e
21:48 < durka42> it's probably not going to be "all one short phrase" in lojban though, unless we define some new brivla :)
21:48 < rutytar> i know, but i can dream
21:49 < durka42> laknrbeizi: prior x1 multiplied with likelihood x2 gives posterior x3 for situation x4
21:49 < durka42> zo'o ru'e :p
21:51 < rutytar> nilyla'e and purnilyla'e are cool enough for now
21:55 < rutytar> "to'e natfe" doesn't seem like a good word for evidence because it kind of ignores burden of proof
21:56 < durka42> vlaste: jinvi
21:56 < vlaste> jinvi = x1 thinks/opines x2 [opinion] (du'u) is true about subject/issue x3 on grounds x4.
22:00 < rutytar> jinvi zgana, maybe
22:02 < rutytar> i like {cpacu zgana}
22:14 < selrun> coi ro do
22:15 < rutytar> coi
22:15 < durka42> coi
22:20 < selrun> ma fasnu va'o lo se irci
22:20 < durka42> ninjbopre
22:23 < rutytar> ba'a mi ninjbopre
22:29 < durka42> go'i
22:30 < selrun> xu do ctuca le ninjbopre .i xu le ninjbopre klama vi ca nicte to nicte fi vi toi
22:32 < selrun> xu  di'u drani pilno tobu (parenthesis?)
22:32 < durka42> parenthese were fine, but {vi} isn't a sumti
22:33 < durka42> mi ze'i ctuca .i la'a mi na'e .u'u zabna ctuca
22:35 < rutytar> e'u zenba
22:36 < rutytar> lu zenba
22:37 < rutytar> ro tavla du ctuca
22:38 < selrun> mi birti lo nu do kakne lo ctuca
22:43 < selrun> can you guys please explain the difference between [na'e] and [na], and when to use each?
22:43 < durka42> {na} negates everything to the right, while {na'e} only changes the meaning of the next selbri
22:46 < selrun> so what would be the difference between [mi na klama lo zarci] and [mi na'e klama lo zarci]?
22:57 < gleki> so some want ba'e to be moved to UI, other want ji'a to be moved to BAhE
22:58 < rutytar> co'o ro do
22:58 < selrun> co'o
22:58 < selrun> gleki: so instead of ji'a being a discursive, it would be an attitudinal?
22:59 < gleki> no, it would be like {ba'e} to the left. and it'd be another word of course
22:59 < gleki> en:ji'ai
22:59 < selrun> durka42: so what would be the difference between [mi na klama lo zarci] and [mi na'e klama lo zarci]?
22:59 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
23:00 < gleki> ji'ai lo broda=lo broda ku ji'a
23:00 < gleki> ba'e lo broda = lo broda ku bi'a
23:00 < durka42> selrun: probably not a whole lot of difference in that example
23:01 < durka42> .ei sipna
23:01 < selrun> durka42. Alright, where would differences arise?
23:01 < durka42> definitely they would arise when the {na} scopes over other stuff
23:01 < durka42> like {mi na'e lacri do ki'u lo nu do bebna} - "I don't trust you because you're an idiot"
23:02 < durka42> if you use {na} then the meaning changes
23:02 < selrun> what would the meaning be if you used [na] in that example?
23:02 < durka42> gleki: good, now what about {po'o}? {po'oi} is taken by some other crazy proposal :)
23:02 < selrun> Sorry, if you want to go to bed, feel free.
23:03 < durka42> well if you replace na'e with na straight up, you get "You being an idiot doesn't make me trust you"
23:04 < selrun> alright, I think I'll need to go through more examples, and learn more about lojban scope.
23:04 < gleki> nice https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bzm3qToNzIVaOGlOandYRmJwN0U&usp=drive_web
23:04 < durka42> there's also a little bit of semantic difference
23:04 < durka42> {na} just means "this isn't true" whereas {na'e} has this thing about an implied scale
23:05 < durka42> mi na'e lacri do — I don't trust you, but I presumably do something-other-than trust you
23:05 < durka42> mi na lacri do — simply, it isn't true that I trust you
23:06 < selrun> So na'e implies that something else must happen, if the current expression is false. Whereas na doesn't say anything beyond its basic negation?
23:10 < selrun> okay, so if someone asking my if my colour was green, and I replied, [mi na'e crino], this would be equivalent to, "No, I'm another colour". If I said [mi na crino], I'd simply be saying, "No, I'm not"
23:11 < gleki> durka42: no idea. i dont care. im not even sure po'o should be in BAhE/UI
23:12 < durka42> selrun: yeah
23:13 < selrun> cool!
23:25 < gleki> if po'o deals with scope it should probably be a tag
23:26 < gleki> it's not about any attitude
--- Day changed Mon May 18 2015
00:20  * nuzba @Rodericus: @nimbusaeta Aunque sospecho que en el Molino os llamaría más por otras cosas, entre ellas la parte informática, también el lojban. [http://bit.ly/1FsNdOa]
00:46  * nuzba @Rodericus: ma xe fanva zo'oi declension ja zo'oi conjugation la .#lojban. lo glico [http://bit.ly/1FsQxsB]
01:16 < gleki> So how do i specify timezone now after these letterals in detri1?
01:17 < gleki> oops sorry
01:17 < gleki> wait, no I mean timezone as a place like e.g. "Japanese time"
01:59 < selrun> what is the link to "choose your own adventure" story in lojban? I was reading it ealier in the month, but I can't seem to find it right now.
02:07 < selrun> what is the link to "choose your own adventure" story in lojban? I was reading it ealier in the month, but I can't seem to find it right now
02:07 < gleki> no idea. how did it look like?
02:10 < selrun> .y each page has a title, and below that is a paragraph continuing the story, and below that there are options to choose what you want to do.
02:10 < selrun> it is definitely a basic HTML design
02:11 < selrun> its name is along the lines of ".... lisri la lojban ..."
02:11 < gleki> ldlework: you work ^ ?
02:12 < gleki> ldlework: your work ^ ?
02:12 < gleki> sleeping probably
02:19 < selrun> Found it. It's a good thing I use an IRC client with history. It is lojbo kamjikca lisri. I'll leave a link here: http://www.lojban.org/story/story.pl
02:22 < gleki> btw i cant find jbotcan's logo in high resolution
02:23 < zipcpi> coi
02:26 < selrun> coi la zipcpi
02:27 < zipcpi> coi .selrun.
02:43 < selrun> co'o ro jbopre .i mi ei sipna
05:20  * nuzba @epidemian: @TefiMiguel No lo conocía, pero eso demuestra la necesidad de un lenguaje sin ambigüedad. Todos a hablar Lojban!    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban) [http://bit.ly/1S0YV6b]
06:21 < zipcpi> .yyy. doi gleki xu do du la'o gy. Mungojelly gy.?
06:23 < gleki> na
06:23 < zipcpi> mi srera morji
06:26 < gleki> your system is very nice but how do i say timezone using names like e.g. "Japanese timezone"?
06:27 < zipcpi> Hmmm... vy. ponjo bu ?
06:28 < zipcpi> Or revert to veti'u
06:28 < gleki> probably just bu'u or tcika4 although here it's probably merged with detri3
06:29 < zipcpi> <veti'u lo pongu'e> or <veti'u la .tokiios>
06:29 < zipcpi> Since ve tcika is supposed to be a location anyway rather than a number
06:30 < zipcpi> Yeah I think veti'u is the best solution to name specific locations. Uses Lojban grammar better
06:30 < zipcpi> vy tag remains for UTC offsets
06:31 < zipcpi> poi bu'u could also work
06:32 < zipcpi> (Wait is that correct grammar? Forgot if you could put a preposition-tag after poi)
06:35 < zipcpi> ... Is there something that could convert TAG into SELBRI?
06:35 < zipcpi> Dang it I really need to read the wave lessons again
06:36 < zipcpi> Oh yeah bebu'u
06:36 < zipcpi> pebu'u rather
06:37 < zipcpi> broda de'i li cy pano my no pebu'u lo pongu'e
06:37 < zipcpi> Yeah I'll add that too my page I think
06:37 < zipcpi> *to my page
06:39 < gleki> {pe bu'u ko'a} ,yes. Although some parser accept even {poi bu'u}
06:39 < gleki> alta: ti poi bu'u la paris vau dinju
06:39 < mensi> ([FA {ti <poi (¹[{bu'u <la (²paris SF²) KU>} {FA ZOhE}] [CU {COhE SF} vau]¹) KUhO>}] [CU {dinju SF} VAU])
06:40 < gleki> with {pe} you dont need this terminator
06:46 < gleki> i already implemented this system in the Crash Course. Feel free to check http://mw.lojban.org/papri/L17-01#Time_of_day.2C_dates_and_calendar
06:46 < zipcpi> ui o'a
06:48 < zipcpi> You might also want to include the gloss words as memory hooks
06:48 < gleki> the dictionary is also udated. {tcika} is retained but {ti'u} is completely replaced with {de'i}
06:48 < gleki> *updated
06:48 < zipcpi> I thought {ti'u ma} might still be useful
06:49 < gleki> memory hooks? maybe. although who knows, may be we wont need these {cacra}, {mentu} in future.
06:49 < gleki> instead of {ti'u ma} i used {de'i li cy xo}. Two more syllables, yeah. idk
06:49 < zipcpi> Or as long as fi'o exists technically we can get rid of all but the most-used BAI
06:51 < zipcpi> But yeah the whole thing about cacra/mentu etc... if we find out a way to also apply this system to durations... hmm...
06:51 < zipcpi> The problem is that ditcu doesn't accept a li
06:52 < zipcpi> Either we come up with a new brivla (which would then need its own BAI tag), or a new cmavo in selma'o LI, or some other solution I haven't thought of yet
06:53 < gleki> hm, actually in your system there can only be {ti'u li cy xo}, not {ti'u li xo}. so {ti'u ma} is the only places where this {ti'u} can save sylables
06:53 < gleki> prepositions exist to make speech shorter.
06:54 < zipcpi> I know
06:54 < gleki> so if we have a tool to measure periods using {de'i} then {cacra} will be useless
06:54 < zipcpi> Just considering our options
06:54 < gleki> {de'i li py cy pa}?
06:54 < gleki> or just a new preposition?
06:55 < zipcpi> I did suggest that in my "Additional crazy idea" thing. My worry is that it stretches {detri} just a little too much
06:55 < gleki> for now i wont restore {ti'u}. La Bangu is a simple language
06:55  * zipcpi nods
06:57 < zipcpi> Maybe someone should translate this to Lojban: http://blog.xkcd.com/2015/05/13/new-book-thing-explainer/ zo'o
06:57 < zipcpi> *la Bangu
06:57 < gleki> so {de'i li py cy pa} = {ze'a lo cacra [be li pa]}?
06:57 < zipcpi> I'm still not decided on py yet. It could be ky for kuspe
06:58 < zipcpi> Or ty for temci. Still not used yet
06:59 < gleki> there is another question, namely, such things as velocity. E.g. 15 miles per hour.
06:59 < gleki> {pi'ai} and {te'ai} were proposed
07:00 < zipcpi> Hmm...
07:00 < zipcpi> OK I think I'll change my suggestion to ty
07:01 < gleki> how do we say " I drive 60 miles per hour"?
07:02 < zipcpi> The dictionary has cacryminli but you probably want to avoid the lujvo
07:02 < zipcpi> Also the vocab is probably not very consistent
07:05 < gleki> yes, we dont want a new lujvo for every new combination
07:06 < zipcpi> If pi'ai is for multiplication, is there one for division...
07:06 < gleki> no need
07:06 < gleki> en: te'ai
07:07 < zipcpi> That one is for exponentiation
07:07 < zipcpi> Oh te'ai ni'u pa
07:07 < zipcpi> A little long though
07:08 < zipcpi> pi'ai minli cacra te'ai ni'u pa
07:08 < mensi> te'ai = [XI] Exponentiation of unit selbri |>>> With pi'ai, this word can be used to construct unit selbri; see the
07:08 < mensi> notes of pi'ai for a simple example. A full example is the units of acceleration, pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u re [ke'e].
07:08 < mensi>  |>>> latros
07:08 < zipcpi> Yep...
07:10 < zipcpi> Of course they could also just say ma tcika lo nu broda brode brodo
07:11 < zipcpi> coi durkavore
07:12 < gleki> I replaced LMW icons with those made by Timothy
07:13 < zipcpi> LMW goi ma
07:14 < demize> la uitki
07:15 < zipcpi> ua mi co'a ganse
07:18 < zipcpi> lo'u" lo nu lo remna cu klama lo lunra de'i li dy re pa ly ze ny pa so xa so t de'i la .xustyn. "le'u cu claxu me'o ebu
07:18 < zipcpi> lo'aidai t de'i sa'ai te de'i le'ai
07:19 < gleki> la'a zo bu'u jai sarcu
07:19 < zipcpi> * lo'ai t de'i sa'ai te de'i le'aidai
07:19 < zipcpi> ie
07:19 < zipcpi> lo'u pe bu'u le'u
07:20 < zipcpi> Actually lo nu is not needed
07:21 < zipcpi> lo remna cu klama lo lunra de'i li dy re pa ly ze ny pa so xa so pe bu'u la .xustyn.
07:23 < zipcpi> Trans: A human went to the moon on 21 July, 1969, Houston time.
07:24 < zipcpi> Though the pe is very important, otherwise it implies that lo nu lo remna cu klama lo lunra happened in Houston, which is just wrong :p
07:24 < gleki> indeed, lonu is not needed. fixed. i havent checked anything past the beginning of chapter 3
07:28 < zipcpi> Part of the problem of Lojbanizing mathematical and scientific measurments and abbreviations though is that they are so often ambiguous
07:29 < zipcpi> I am only able to come up with a system for dates and times because the vocabulary is very limited, so to speak :p
07:29 < gleki> I added some nice icons to the test front page http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Welcome!0/en
07:31 < gleki> maybe icons for IRC, mailing list, Tatoeba, sutsis need to be added
07:31 < zipcpi> "li dy mu ly ze ny re no no mu ca detri lo nu mi jbena" Drop the ca
07:32 < zipcpi> cu is not needed but seems natural
07:34 < gleki> of course days of week will also gotdeleted
07:34 < zipcpi> Replaced by de'i li jy dy xo'e ?
07:38 < gleki> la'a
07:38 < gleki> although this poses problems to lusophones
07:38  * gleki who thus become looser-phones zo'o
07:40 < Spheniscine> fau'u do My power went out
07:40 < zipcpi> The last line I saw was
07:40 < zipcpi>  of course days of week will also gotdeleted
07:40 < zipcpi> <zipcpi> Replaced by de'i li jy dy xo'e ?
07:40 < zipcpi> Did you say something?
07:45 < gleki> la'a
07:45 < gleki> although this poses problems to lusophones
07:45  * gleki who thus become looser-phones zo'o
07:46 < zipcpi> u'i
07:47 < zipcpi> Yeah the inconsistency with numbering is a problem...
07:47 < zipcpi> I chose Monday because that's what ISO uses. Also Chinese, being so populous and all
07:48 < zipcpi> But I can't remember the elemental system. The Japanese probably could though :p
07:48 < zipcpi> Only soldei and lurdei
07:59 < zipcpi> Yeah that is another advantage this system has over trying to force-fit ISO 8601 into Lojban. The jydy place can be used to say what day-of-the-week any particular day is rather than needing to be associated with the ISO week date system
07:59 < rutytar> coi
07:59 < zipcpi> coi .rutytar.
08:00 < rutytar> is this regarding numbering of weekdays?
08:00 < zipcpi> Much more
08:00 < zipcpi> Take a look http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Proposal:_loi_lerfu_tcita_detri;_the_final_word_on_the_problem_of_dates_and_times%3F o'a
08:01 < zipcpi> la gleki likes it so much he's including it into his La Bangu project ^^
08:02 < rutytar> zipcpi: the link is empty
08:02 < zipcpi> Really? Works for me
08:02 < zipcpi> I'm not sure what could be wrong
08:02 < rutytar> maybe put the link in a pastebin?
08:03 < zipcpi> http://goo.gl/MkShsg
08:03 < rutytar> there we go
08:03 < zipcpi> Maybe your IRC client has a bad regex
08:04 < zipcpi> And didn't capture the entire link
08:04 < rutytar> firefox interpreted %3F as a question mark, but apparently the wiki wanted %3F in the page title
08:04 < zipcpi> Yep...
08:05 < zipcpi> The open question is what to do with the "additional crazy idea" I put. This system is so elegant it begs to be extended, but I'm worried about stretching the meaning of detri too much :p
08:05 < pinji> coi...
08:06 < zipcpi> coi
08:06 < rutytar> it seems to me the main advantage is YYYY-MM-DD is being alphabetical
08:06 < rutytar> that is, LR sortable
08:06 < zipcpi> Yep... as a computer guy I favor it. The problem with it is that it isn't developed for Lojban
08:07 < zipcpi> li pi'epi'epi'e remu is just too stupid
08:07 < rutytar> seems like a good compromise would be ISO when using arabic numerals and dd-mm-yyyy when using lojban
08:08 < zipcpi> But that doesn't represent the year conveniently
08:08 < zipcpi> Oh you mean depending on how it's written? That's a big no no in Lojban
08:08 < rutytar> detri fi renopamu
08:09 < rutytar> or is that not detri's place structure?
08:09 < durka42> coi ru'e
08:09 < zipcpi> Redefining the place structure of detri or defining a new brivla has been proposed before
08:09 < zipcpi> Didn't work. Required too many places and no one could remember which one was which
08:09 < rutytar> but "2015" already breaks lojban becacuse it's not lojban
08:10 < zipcpi> 2015 converts to renopamu
08:10 < rutytar> "18-05-2015" isn't any more lojban than "2015-05-18"
08:10 < rutytar> or any less, neither are lojban
08:10 < durka42> camxes: 2015
08:10 < camxes> ([re {no pa mu}] BOI)
08:10 < durka42> camxes: li 2015 detri
08:10 < camxes> ([{li <(¹re [no pa mu]¹) BOI> LOhO} CU] [detri VAU])
08:10 < durka42> ui
08:11 < zipcpi> 2015 converts to renopamu, is read as "reh-no-pah-moo"
08:12 < zipcpi> The philosophy of Lojban is that there can be no additional meaning to symbols or conventions written but not spoken
08:12 < zipcpi> That's why all punctuation are words, and punctuation is only added to Lojban text to ease reading
08:13 < rutytar> so 2015 is lojban because rule of identity?
08:13 < zipcpi> Yep
08:13 < rutytar> if there can be no additional meanings, it has to be dd-mm-yyyy
08:13 < rutytar> or sorry, yyyy-mm-dd
08:14 < zipcpi> I point out the problems of force-fitting the ISO 8601 on my page. In short, ISO 8601 isn't just about the order
08:15 < zipcpi> It also has defined conventions for other things like truncation and weeks-of-the-year. Things that could be useful but are very unwieldy when Lojbanized
08:16 < rutytar> so shouldn't we be considering full ISO 8601 and simple yyyy-mm-dd separately?
08:17 < zipcpi> Because we often *do* want to truncate the year and/or the month
08:17 < zipcpi> And two pi'e-s to get to the date is bad enough, but then it clashes with ISO 8601 proper
08:18 < zipcpi> Which states that technically we should be using three
08:18 < rutytar> i'll just read the article
08:18 < zipcpi> Yeah all the arguments are there. As well as my proposed system
08:19 < durka42> just read your page
08:19 < durka42> I like it a lot
08:19 < zipcpi> ki'esai durkavore
08:19 < durka42> and now I want to write this detri4 computer program :p
08:20 < zipcpi> u'i
08:21 < rutytar> this reminds me of the unix date utility
08:21 < rutytar> detri +"%ny %ly"
08:22 < rutytar> are either of you familiar with it?
08:22 < durka42> yes :)
08:22 < durka42> I added a redirect so the question-mark-deficient link now works!
08:22 < zipcpi> ki'e
08:23 < durka42> I dunno if we need extra notation for periods of time
08:23 < durka42> I like to just use {bi'o} in detri1 for that
08:23 < rutytar> i'm unfamiliar with infix rules, but could you have a default order like with x place structure?
08:24 < durka42> mekso operators can have place structure, yeah, but I don't really understand it :)
08:27 < rutytar> is there a lojban phonetic alphabet?
08:27 < zipcpi> There was one I've heard of but I don't think it's really popularized
08:28 < zipcpi> I think if it was necessary we'd just go mezoizoi <revert to NATO phonetic alphabet> zoi
08:32 < rutytar> is the hexidecimal alphabet popular?
08:32 < zipcpi> It's there when it is needed. But no I don't think there is a real push for hex base to be the official base system of Lojbanistan
08:33 < zipcpi> I don't think that push would succeed if it existed
08:34 < rutytar> i'm pretty bothered by rei and vai having the same initial consonants as re and vo
08:34 < zipcpi> rei has a proposed substitue, xei
08:34 < durka42> vo-vai isn't so bad but re-rei is very easy to get confused at least for me
08:34 < zipcpi> That's why xei :p
08:35 < durka42> ie
08:35 < durka42> though it's close to {xe}
08:35 < zipcpi> Also in my opinion re should be pronounced more like /ra/re rather than /re/d
08:35 < durka42> but you wouldn't be using {xe} very close to {xei}
08:35 < durka42> oh really?
08:36 < rutytar> with an american accent, re is hard to say but reno is really easy
08:36 < zipcpi> Yeah that's my personal opinion to distinguish the vowels better
08:36 < durka42> je'e
08:36 < durka42> mi'e merko :)
08:36 < zipcpi> I don't know a lot about accents
08:39 < zipcpi> In IPA terms, Lojban e should be IPA [ɛ]. Many books and places say [e] should be acceptable, but in my opinion it should be avoided
08:40 < zipcpi> [e] too readily diphthongizes
08:40 < zipcpi> [ei] for ei should be fine though
08:41  * durka42 grabs headphones and loads up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel_chart_with_audio
08:42 < zipcpi> Well I admit I'm kinda biased because over here in Malaysia people pronounce "red" very close to "raid"
08:42 < durka42> yes, I agree with you
08:42 < durka42> [e] is close to {ei}
08:42  * zipcpi nods
08:43 < durka42> and since my first second language was spanish, I definitely merge them :)
08:45 < zipcpi> I forgot how selma'o BIhI works
08:45 < rutytar> i've always tried really hard not to do {ei}
08:46 < zipcpi> Basically, open your mouth wider. Not as wide as c/a/t, but wide enough
08:46 < rutytar> do you think it's physically difficult for all humans or just depending on accent? cause if it's the latter lojban is about getting over that, isn't it?
08:46 < rutytar> zipcpi: like somewhere between "cat" and "cut"?
08:47 < rutytar> but not "ket" in "kettle"?
08:47 < zipcpi> Somewhere between rat and red
08:48 < zipcpi> I think ket is fine... though like I said, knowledge of accents not so strong. But I think English speakers do tend to pronounce lower before voiced consonants
08:48 < rutytar> like the latin "et", i guess
08:48 < rutytar> that's another one american accents aren't good at
08:48 < zipcpi> Yeah...
08:52 < zipcpi> doi durka42: bi'o is good when you say "from x to y", but what about "for period y"?
08:53 < zipcpi> Like, for three years and four days
08:53 < durka42> ditcu :)
08:54 < zipcpi> It is definitely *possible* with ze'e lo nanca be li ci joi lo djedi be li vo
08:54 < zipcpi> But like I said, the letter system is so elegant it begs to be extended
08:56 < zipcpi> Yes, but what goes into x1 of ditcu?
08:56 < zipcpi> That one we're not quite sure :p
08:56 < zipcpi> lo nanca be li ci joi lo djedi be li vo ?
08:57 < gleki> zipcpi's proposal is nice because it allows for free "word" order.
08:58 < gleki> also i dont know why i need {pi'e} anymore
08:58 < gleki> jb:pi'e
08:58 < mensi> pi'e = pi'e [digit/number] — separates number into parts of different bases
08:58 < mensi> :ko tcidu lo te fendi poi pa pi'e ci mu moi — Read the section 1.35.
08:58 < gleki> hm, wy not {pi} here?
08:58 < zipcpi> Where do you want to use it?
08:58 < gleki> pa pi ci mu moi
08:59 < durka42> because 3.15 < 3.5 but 3 pi'e 15 > 3 pi'e 5
08:59 < gleki> use zipcpibau then! pa by ci mu moi
08:59 < gleki> where {by} is for {bergu}
09:00 < zipcpi> u'i
09:00 < zipcpi> "x1 pertains to bear goo metaphysics in aspect x2"
09:00 < zipcpi> uanai u'isai
09:01 < gleki> i just tried Duolingo once again I dont know who are the authors of those Spanish and Portuguese courses. Wth is "kings like juice"?
09:01 < zipcpi> u'i
09:01 < zipcpi> I'm laughing so hard right now
09:02 < durka42> zipcpi: zasti fa lo clanytcetcetce nuncasnu sera'a lo du'u xukau lo cribe pesxu cu cribe
09:03 < zipcpi> ua
09:03 < zipcpi> zo clanytcetcetce u'i
09:04 < durka42> mapti
09:05 < durka42> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_Bear_goo
09:06 < lihazeiliha> lo cribe ku po'o cribe .i ro cribe cu cribe
09:06 < zipcpi> Wow
09:07 < lihazeiliha> sorry wrong channel
09:07 < zipcpi> lo cribe be lo cribe be lo cribe be lo cribe
09:07 < zipcpi> (Yes I know that doesn't make any sense)
09:08 < durka42> lo cribe be lo se cribe be lo cribe be lo se cribe ...
09:09 < ldlework> la solris cu jelcagna mi uinai
09:10 < ldlework> cortu mutce
09:10 < gleki> i la solri cu du la robin turner
09:10 < zipcpi> zo'oi .jel. rafsi ma
09:11 < zipcpi> zo jelca
09:12 < zipcpi> uu di'ai la cadyzu'e
09:12 < ldlework> mi je la jenca ku noi pamsi'u cu picnic ca lo pramlamdei
09:13 < gleki> en:picnicygau
09:13 < gleki> la vrici cu co'e
09:13 < mensi> [< picti cnici gasnu ≈ Trillionth orderly do] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se
09:13 < mensi> tolcri
09:13 < mensi> picynicygau[11016], picycnicygau[12026], pictynicygau[12046], pictycnicygau[13056], picynicygasnu[13086], ...
09:13 < ldlework> bu'u pa lo vanju jukpa
09:13 < ldlework> gleki: xamsku li'a
09:15 < durka42> zo pramylamdei .u'isai
09:15 < ldlework> .i ku'i mi'a je'a citka bu'u pa lo vanju jukpa ca lo pramlamdei .i ji'a mi je'a se jelcanga
09:15 < zipcpi> zo prulamdei jenai zo'oi .pramlamdei.
09:16 < durka42> zo'oi pramlamdei valslinku'i
09:16 < zipcpi> je'u
09:19 < ldlework> la lojban ku nitcu za'u citpre poi ki'u lo du'u ponse piso'i lo zifre temci
09:19 < ldlework> oops
09:19 < zipcpi> But well, the letter system is kindof an idea that grown from me thinking that ve detri is already some sort of magic system that people considered systems like ISO 8601 to be
09:19 < ldlework> la lojban ku nitcu za'u citpre ki'u lo du'u ponse piso'i lo zifre temci
09:20 < zipcpi> Which is essentially an arbitrary mixed-base string of characters
09:20 < rutytar> http://i.imgur.com/032nRtS.jpg
09:20 < zipcpi> So yeah. If only there was a system for ditcu that was nearly as magical
09:21 < rutytar> i've been thinking about an alphabet based on arabic numerals, since they're pretty much global in usage
09:22 < zipcpi> Interesting...
09:23 < rutytar> when designing a writing system there's a difficult trade-off between ease of writing and ease of reading
09:24 < zipcpi> ie
09:24 < tceltynma> "sorry wrong channel"
09:24 < tceltynma> ma ni do cimni doi li'o li'o
09:26 < Ilmen> coi
09:26 < rutytar> but this is why i'm annoyed at rei and vai, ky, ly and ty are still open
09:26 < zipcpi> coi
09:26 < Ilmen> doi cabdei pendo mi rinsa do
09:26 < zipcpi> Well lots of use have gripes about how the cmavo are initially assigned, and the hex digits aren't really a priority there unfortunately
09:27 < zipcpi> There are a lot of monosyllabic cmavo that are almost never used
09:27 < rutytar> i suppose so
09:28 < Ilmen> coi la .rutytar.
09:28 < rutytar> coi .ilmen.
09:28 < Ilmen> coi la grute tarci
09:29 < Ilmen> .i ma se casnu
09:29 < rutytar> ui
09:29 < zipcpi> (ta'o there's actually discussion about inventing a new word for star (shape) vs star (celestial object)
09:29 < ldlework> i'e
09:30 < rutytar> i'm into this, but wouldn't it make more sense to have equilateral concave polygon as a selbri with point count as a sumti?
09:31 < zipcpi> Point count would probably be somewhere in there yes
09:31 < gleki> we dont even have a word for polyhedron now.
09:32 < rutytar> literally the "shape" isn't that of a star, but of our retina via the pinhole effect
09:32 < zipcpi> Exactly
09:32  * ldlework imagines a little gallery in the opensim with a few rows of various 3D bodies and their lojban names.
09:33 < gleki> interesting. although both MediaWiki and Twitter have API there isn't a separate tool to send news from MediaWiki to Twitter.
09:33 < rutytar> i tried writing a bit of euclid's elements in lojban earlier, but i'm not sure i knew what i was doing
09:34 < zipcpi> Wonder if the concept of tosmabru should be vlatosmabru. It's a naljvajvo but come on, tos isn't currently assigned, and even if it was I don't see that lujvo being useful for anything else
09:34 < durka42> I created {valrtosmabru} at some point
09:34 < Ilmen> A tosmabru isn't a word
09:35 < rutytar>   1 le mokca du le na pagbu je na cusna
09:35 < rutytar>   2 le linji du le clani klani cu na ganra klani
09:35 < rutytar>   3 ro jipno le linji du le mokca
09:35 < rutytar>   4 le sirji linji du se manfo be jbini le mokca
09:35 < Ilmen> it's a sequence cmavo+brivla
09:35 < zipcpi> Neither is a slinku'i
09:35 < rutytar> is that sensible?
09:35 < zipcpi> durka Yeah I noticed. I just have a hate-on for the syllabic sonorants :p
09:35 < gleki> k:valsitosmabru
09:35 < mensi> (CU [Z:valsitosmabru VAU])
09:37 < gleki> you may add this
09:38 < zipcpi> Actually candidate zi'evla could be tosmabru to I think...
09:39 < zipcpi> Which is actually really hard, because it would make the definition of tosmabru somewhat recursive :p
09:42 < zipcpi> Well back to extending the lerfu tcita system, it is actually probably both grammatically and semantically correct to say ze'e zo'e pe li ny ci dy vo
09:42 < zipcpi> Except then we'd be offloading the work to a completely unspecified bridi
09:42 < rutytar> is "tosmabru" tos + mabru?
09:43 < zipcpi> to + sma-bru
09:43 < rutytar> okay
09:43 < gleki> exp: tosmabru
09:43 < mensi> (to [CU {smabru VAU}] TOI)
09:43 < zipcpi> The correct way to attach it would be tosymabru
09:43 < zipcpi> Although it won't mean anything
09:43 < zipcpi> tos is not an assigned rafsi
09:44 < rutytar> so a pop shield?
09:44 < zipcpi> Yeah
09:45 < rutytar> why is {to} necessary?
09:45 < zipcpi> It's for parenthetical statements
09:46 < zipcpi> Also because it's grammatically quite free; you can insert a to... toi statement almost anywhere in the sentence
09:47 < zipcpi> lerfu tcita: It's kinda like when I translated the Magic card to make a token pe li [power] pi'e [toughness]
09:48 < zipcpi> I assumed that if someone actually took the time to translate MTG's rules into Lojban they'd define a brivla for that
09:50 < rutytar> zo'o ricyratcu kardygirzu
09:52 < rutytar> co'o
09:52 < zipcpi> co'o
09:54 < zipcpi> Something like "x1 is the numeric representation of time-duration/interval x2 according to system/standard x3"
09:54 < gleki> and de'i wont work here?
09:55 < zipcpi> Yeah.... this is starting to become bergu isn't it :p
09:55 < zipcpi> Does a duration of time detri?
09:55 < zipcpi> Let the games begin
09:55 < zipcpi> :p
09:55 < gleki> de'i li cy pa my xo'e is period, haha
09:56 < gleki> btw, {de'i li jydypa} takes 6 syllables. "On Monday" takes three.
09:56 < zipcpi> Yeah...
09:56 < zipcpi> If [JD] is so useful we might want a single letter for it...
09:57 < zipcpi> Can't think of what it should be though
10:00 < gleki> in La Alta {ti'u} can be pronounced as {tiu}. Then we'll have 4 syllables
10:00 < zipcpi> Wait I thought we went over why CGV was a bad thing :p
10:01 < gleki> tiu = ti'u in La Alta. It's the same word.
10:04 < zipcpi> I'm not exactly sure how la alta works
10:05 < zipcpi> Indeed I don't think there is an elegant way to say "day of the week" in Lojban
10:07 < gleki> La Alta is a dialect. It exactly works by making some CgV equal to C'V
10:08 < zipcpi> So it's just a way of increasing "monosyllabic cmavo" space?
10:09 < gleki> it's just making some cmavo shorter
10:09 < zipcpi> But people can still pronounce them disyllabically if they have trouble pronouncing it or getting heard correctly
10:10 < gleki> yes, you may stil say {tihu}
10:12 < zipcpi> One potential downside I see in using de'i for arbitrary durations of time is that it doesn't use Lojban's tense system (actually that might be a problem even with detri itself)
10:12 < zipcpi> bergu aside
10:12 < gleki> what is lojban tense system paunai
10:13 < zipcpi> Everything in PU, ZAhO, and ZEhA
10:13 < zipcpi> And there might be others I forgot
10:15 < gleki> i dont know how can {ze'a} work here
10:15 < gleki> it's a clash between date/time and interval (period) here
10:15 < zipcpi> {ze'e}
10:16 < zipcpi> {ze'e lo nanca be li ci} = "for three years"
10:17 < gleki> but we dont have a splicing converter
10:17 < gleki> "in July" is {ca lo zemoi be lo masti}
10:18 <@xalbo> {ze'e} as sumtcita is unusual. {ze'a lo nanca be li ci} is "for three years". {ze'e lo nanca be li ci} is "throughout all of eternity, which is to say, three years"
10:18 < zipcpi> o.o crap
10:19 < zipcpi> It's xorlo again lol
10:19 < gleki> ze'a de'i li my ze ...
10:20 < zipcpi> Doesn't that parse?
10:20 < zipcpi> *Does that parse?
10:21 < zipcpi> exp: mi broda brode ze'a de'i li my ze
10:21 < mensi> (mi [CU {broda brode} {<ze'a de'i> <li (¹[my ze] BOI¹) LOhO>} VAU])
10:21 < zipcpi> Oh cool... so "before date" could be pu de'i
10:22 < zipcpi> Alright gleki.... I think I'm a convert now lol
10:23 < zipcpi> But should the "period marker" be necessary then? Would there be situations where leaving it out might be problematic?
10:24 < zipcpi> I'm also thinking about using the words for "plus" and "minus" for stuff like "three years and four days from now"
10:24 < zipcpi> Which is what the ISO period format is designed to do
10:24 <@xalbo> I missed most of this conversation. What is {de'i li my ze} supposed to mean?
10:25 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Proposal:_loi_lerfu_tcita_detri;_the_final_word_on_the_problem_of_dates_and_times%3F
10:25 < gleki> zipcpi: no no. im not sure it means what we want
10:25 < gleki> we want "throught all July" vs. "In July"
10:25 < zipcpi> Oh right yeah that could be a problem
10:26 < zipcpi> And if you wanted month it's ly. You forgot :p
10:27 < gleki> ie
10:27 < zipcpi> Well the tense system might be able to solve at least part of it... there's lots in there I've not quite memorized
10:27 < zipcpi> But yeah the period marker would probably still be needed
10:27 < zipcpi> Otherwise there'd be ambiguity between "throughout July" and "for seven months"
10:28 < gleki> throughout July for one month :)
10:29 < gleki> maybe it's just de'i li ly ze dy no bi'o ro
10:29 < zipcpi> So assuming ty for period marker, ze'e de'i li ly ze = Throughout July, ze'e de'i li ty ly ze = for seven months
10:30 < zipcpi> Yeah mekso could also work
10:30 < gleki> .w throughout
10:30 < phenny> throughout — preposition: 1. In every part of; all through — adverb: 1. (obsolete) Completely through, right the way through, 2. In every part; everywhere
10:30 < gleki> maybe it sould be reverse, i.e. de'i ze'a
10:31 < zipcpi> I'm not exactly sure how multiple sumtcita modify each other :p
10:31 < gleki> mi de'a jundi
10:33 < zipcpi> I kinda assume they'd work like tanru
10:34 < zipcpi> If that is right de'i would come last
10:34 < zipcpi> Because detri1 is the magic place that makes it all work
10:41 < zipcpi> doi xalbo Done reading yet?
10:42 <@xalbo> Yes. I'm just not sure what I think of it.
10:42 < zipcpi> Any questions?
10:43 <@xalbo> I don't think anyone seriously was proposing that detri1 follow all of ISO-8601, merely that it use YYYY pi'e MM pi'e DD order.
10:43 < zipcpi> b_jonas did
10:43 < zipcpi> When I was talking about how many pi'e-s to use he strongly disagreed
10:44 < zipcpi> He's the one who told me that three was correct, not two
10:44 < zipcpi> And even two is crazy enough pe'i
10:45 < b_jonas> did what?
10:45 < b_jonas> oh
10:45 < durka42> it doesn't even really conflict…
10:45 < durka42> if you say a detri1 with these lerfu prefixes, you're clearly not using ISO8601 or even YYYYpi'eMMpi'eDD
10:47 < zipcpi> Exactly
10:47 < durka42> prefices? :p
10:47 < zipcpi> u'i
10:49 < gleki> zipcpi, prepositions scope over each other. It's (ze'a (de'i ...
10:50 < zipcpi> Still think ze'a de'i is correct then...
10:51 < gleki> la'a
10:52 < gleki> In fact zipcpi's proposal is just inventing a bunch of words that work only within detri1/tcika1
10:53 < gleki> and the question is whether they can kill already existing words like cacra/mentu/djedi
10:53 < gleki> also there are already some splciing interval words in Lojban. Like e.g. {citsi}
10:54 < gleki> *splicing
10:58 < zipcpi> Yes... it'd be funny because I'm taking all the first letters of these words (except for masti)
10:58 < zipcpi> Then killing them mercilessly
11:00 < zipcpi> That's the funny thing about language. Once it's out there you don't control it anymore
11:04 < zipcpi> It might not completely kill the words though. It could still be useful to refer to a "year" as a concept
11:04 < zipcpi> But probably a good reason to drop them from La Bangu
11:06 < durka42> I wouldn't drop them. they are still good for things like {ca lo ca nanca}
11:06 < durka42> plus how are you going to define the detri system in Lojban without these words?
11:06 < zipcpi> Yeah. La Bangu is different though
11:06 < zipcpi> It's meant to be a reduced vocab for beginners
11:06 < durka42> seems La Bangu is meant to be a different thing every day :p
11:06 < zipcpi> u'i
11:06 < gleki> then just cacra bu
11:07 < zipcpi> Bring that up with gleki
11:07 < gleki> La Bangu is still the same.
11:07 < gleki> La Bangu is a new method of teaching Lojban that:
11:07 < gleki> uses a simple style of speaking Lojban with fewer compound words (lujvo), more usage examples and answers to "How to say ..." questions.
11:07 < gleki> uses terminology taken from the language the learner uses from birth.
11:07 < gleki> [ http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu  ]
11:08 < zipcpi> Yes... it's a different approach, and I do appreciate it
11:08 < gleki> La Bangu is not a dialect. It's just a method
11:08 < zipcpi> More about presenting it as a usable language, rather than just theory theory theory
11:08 < zipcpi> Although I do like my theory sometimes :p
11:10 < zipcpi> That's why I am working on that theory document... although now this new date system is competing for my attention
11:10 < zipcpi> And also some non-Lojban-related stuff
11:14 < zipcpi> But yeah one thing that's annoyed me is that "What day is it" could mean "Tuesday", it could mean "the 19th", or even "our anniversary" zo'o
11:15 < zipcpi> I'm actually quite surprised that jefydei is not defined
11:16 < zipcpi> Although I won't know what to define it *as*
11:17 < b_jonas> zipcpi: would that mean "day of the week" ji "weekday" (not weekend)?
11:19 < zipcpi> Exactly the problem
11:19 < zipcpi> Although I think the former makes more sense
11:23 < zipcpi> What would be the second though?
11:23 < zipcpi> Search for weekend... jefyfa'o and... jefydiknalgundei
11:24 < zipcpi> oi
11:24 < zipcpi> weekday doesn't return anything
11:26 < zipcpi> So yeah at least now with my system the first two have unambiguous ways for asking for them. As for the last one though... I'm not sure I can help you there :p
11:27 < zipcpi> ca de'i li ny renopamu ly mu dy paso cy re my reze vy bi
11:29  * nuzba @Rodericus: @nimbusaeta :O ¿Sí? ¿Cómo? Solo sé que el «ma» debe de ser y usarse casi igual (también en lojban, curiosamente). ¿Y las preguntas de sí/no? [http://bit.ly/1LeeqTF]
11:31 < zipcpi> I'm thinking jefygundei is enough for "weekday", even those you don't end up gunka-ing on
11:31 < zipcpi> There is a problem with trying to be too literal when coining lujvo
11:32 < zipcpi> That's why you get monstrosities like jefydiknalgundei :p
11:35 < durka42> ie
11:36 < gleki> Lojban SSR was easier xo'o
11:37 < durka42> SSR ki'a
11:37 < gleki> LSSR
11:38 < durka42> ki'abu'ocu'i
11:38 < durka42> uaki'abu'onai
11:39 < durka42> jbojevysofkemcomco'e
11:39 < durka42> vlaste: republic
11:39 < vlaste> 49 results: gubyseltru, gubyseltru, gubyka'iseltru, jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru, banbucupu, banbukupu, banbumuje, banbu'oje, banbuxuxu, bandu'eke…
11:42 < zipcpi> zo jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru u'i
11:43 < gleki> ai mi catra la mensi
11:43 < gleki> en:jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru
11:43 < zipcpi> u'i
11:43 < mensi> jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru [< lojbo je softo ke su'o gugde jecta ke'e bo ke fatri
11:43 < mensi> prali turni sidbo ke'e ke gubni se turni ≈ Lojbanic and not Soviet start grouping at least country polity end grouping
11:43 < mensi> |  start grouping distribute gain govern idea end grouping start grouping public 2nd conversion govern] = x1 reflects
11:43 < mensi> Lojbanic Soviet Federative Socialist Republic culture/nationality/community in aspect
11:43 < mensi> x2
11:43 < durka42> ue sutra
11:43 < gleki> ie cinri
11:44 < zipcpi> Lojban does sound a bit like a language from a former Soviet country :p
11:44 < gleki> ke'e bo ke
11:44 < zipcpi> lo galraikeeeenka! BE lo fraGAriiiii!
11:44 < gleki> lujvo: lojbo je softo ke su'o gugde jecta ke'e bo ke fatri prali turni sidbo ke'e ke gubni se turni
11:45 < mensi> jbojvesofkemsuzgugjecke'eborkemfaipaltrusi'okepkemgubyseltru[57998], lobjvesofkemsuzgugjecke'eborkemfaipaltrusi'okepkemgubyseltru[58018], jbojvesofkemsuzgu'ejecke'eborkemfaipaltrusi'okepkemg
11:45 < mensi> ubyseltru[58487], jbojvesofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'okepkemgubyseltru[58487], jbojvesofkemsu'ogugjecke'eborkemfaipaltrusi'okepkemgubyseltru[58487], ...
11:45 < mensi> jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru [< lojbo je softo ke su'o gugde jecta ke'e bo ke fatri prali turni sidbo ke'e ke gubni se turni ≈ Lojbanic and not Soviet star
11:45 < mensi> t grouping at least country polity end grouping  |  start grouping distribute gain govern idea end grouping start grouping public 2nd conversion govern] = x1 reflects Lojbanic Soviet Federat
11:45 < mensi> ive Socialist Republic culture/nationality/community in aspect x2
11:45 < gleki> lo so'i rafsi ka'e catra la mensi
11:46 < gleki> so tsani used not the lowest score word
11:47 < zipcpi> jefygundei = $x_1$ is a weekday (typical working day of the week) of week $x_2$, according to culture/custom $x_3$
11:47 < zipcpi> ?
11:48 < zipcpi> jefyfa'o doesn't have that x3 though
11:48 < zipcpi> A bit of an oversight if you ask me
11:49 < gleki> something with {lo mo'u jeftu} could express end of week
11:49 < durka42> if we start using {jefyfa'o} with that x3 then it will co'a zasti
11:49 < zipcpi> The problem though it that it isn't necessarily the literal end of the week
11:50 < zipcpi> So no I don't think mo'u is good here :p
11:52 < zipcpi> What would be a good place structure for jefydei "day of the week"?
11:52 < durka42> x1 is x2 days before the weekend, zo'o
11:52 < zipcpi> u'i
11:53 < gleki> i'e
11:53 < ldlework> u'i
11:53 < b_jonas> x1 is the x2th day of the week, traditionally associated with classical planet x3
11:53 < zipcpi> u'i
11:54 < b_jonas> hated by cartoon character x4
11:54 < zipcpi> u'isai
11:59 < zipcpi> "x1 is the x2-th day of the week x3, on calendar system x4"
12:00 < durka42> if some broda were "x1 is a/are day(s) of week x2"
12:00 < durka42> then you could use moi
12:00 < durka42> as in {lo remoi be lo broda}
12:00 < durka42> what you said is probably fine too :)
12:02 < b_jonas> ok wait
12:03 < b_jonas> hmm
12:03 < b_jonas> dunno
12:15 < durka42> mi co'u denpa .u'i
12:16 < zipcpi> ei mi sipna co'o
12:17 < durka42> co'o
12:41  * nuzba @Rodericus: @nimbusaeta Ups, se me fue de mala manera: es «seme» (que había oído que venía del chino); «ma» es en lojban. [http://bit.ly/1KghoZV]
13:26 < zipcpi> Actually I think the period marker should be ky. ty sounds too much like dy
13:28 < zipcpi> Yeah sorry for making so many changes. But yeah, gotta work out the kinks
13:29 < durka42> are you making these changes in the wiki page?
13:29 < zipcpi> Yes
13:29 < durka42> I wonder if instead of using a marker, you could just say ditcu1 supports the same syntax
13:30 < durka42> li N 1 ditcu <-> lo nanca be li 1 cu ditcu
13:31 < zipcpi> ditcu doesn't have a BAI
13:32 < durka42> ah you want time-duration support for {de'i}
13:33 < zipcpi> Yeah
13:33 < durka42> could always propose a BAI for {ditcu}, like {di'oi} or something
13:34 < durka42> (seems di'oi is taken by a kurtyvla, but who cares)
13:34 < durka42> kurtynomvla*
13:34 < zipcpi> ki'a
13:34 < durka42> kurtynomvla: x1 se finti la .krtisfranks. jecu valsi x2
13:35 < zipcpi> Is he... infamous?
13:35 < durka42> curtis creates a LOT of cmavo
13:35 < durka42> many of them mathematical
13:35 < zipcpi> lol
13:35 < durka42> they have like 100 pages of notes each
13:35 < durka42> and AFAIK are pretty much never used
13:36 < durka42> so I wouldn't feel too bad about proposing an actually useful meaning for one of them :p
13:36 < zipcpi> To do: Import Ithkuil into Lojban zo'o
13:36 < durka42> {di'oi} seems to be part of his {zmico} series (yes, there are so many experimental cmavo in this series that he created a gismu and two lujvo to categorize them)
13:37 < durka42> zipcpi: you joke!
13:37 < durka42> en: jbokuile
13:37 < mensi> jbokuile = x1 reflects/pertains to a Lojban-Ithkuil hybrid culture/language in aspect x2 |>>> See also: lojbo, itkuile
13:37 < mensi> |>>> krtisfranks
13:37 < zipcpi> Wow
13:38 < durka42> vlaste: aigne
13:38 < vlaste> aigne = x1 is an eigenvalue (or zero) of linear transformation/square matrix x2, associated with/'owning' all vectors in generalized eigenspace x3 (implies neither nondegeneracy nor degeneracy; default includes the zero vector) with 'eigenspace-generalization' power/exponent x4 (typically and probably by cultural default will be 1), with algebraic multiplicity (of
13:38 < vlaste> eigenvalue) x5
13:38 < durka42> vlaste: aigne (notes)
13:38 < vlaste> aigne (notes) = For any eigenvector v in generalized eigenspace x3 of linear transformation x2 for eigenvalue x1, where I is the identity matrix/transformation that works/makes sense in the context, the following equation is satisfied: ((x2 - x= 0. When the argument of x4 is 1, the generalized eigenspace x3 is simply a strict/simple/basic eigenspace; this is the typical
13:38 < vlaste> (and probable cultural default) meaning of this word. x4 will typically be restricted to integer values k > 0. x2 should always be specified (a...  ಠ_ಠ http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/aigne
13:38 < durka42> note: I implemented flood prevention in vlaste because of this word
13:40 < zipcpi> Yet he couldn't understand what I meant to do with i'au :p
13:45 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/aigne  .iiiiiiiii
13:45 < zipcpi> ki'acaisaicaisaicaisaicaisai
13:46 < zipcpi> Seriously, I don't even think a mathematician would understand it
13:46 < zipcpi> I mean, "Thus, a Lojban mathematician would consider the zero vector to be an (automatic) eigenvector of the given (in fact, any) linear transformation (particularly ones represented by a square matrix in a given basis). This is the logically most basic definition, but is contrary to typical mathematical culture. "
13:47 < zipcpi> Like what the bleep?
13:48 < rutytar> does "munrei" seem like an okay lujvo?
13:48 < zipcpi> What do you want it to mean?
13:48 < zipcpi> "meaning" + "question"
13:49 < zipcpi> Also jbokuile and itkuile are no longer words under CGV ban
13:49 < rutytar> soliting someone's intended meaning rather than elaboration
13:50 < zipcpi> Ah
13:50 < rutytar> are there better gismu to use for that kind of thing?
13:50 < zipcpi> I don't know... I'm not very fluent, and it's like 4:50 am here
13:51 < rutytar> i understand
13:51 < rutytar> i'a
13:51 < zipcpi> coi selpa'i
13:52 < selpahi> coi .i mi'e la selpa'i .i ku'i da'i mi na pante lo nu mi selpa'i ji'a
13:52 < zipcpi> (I actually thought that if there is no gadri in coi or doi it is ambiguous)
13:52 < selpahi> zipcpi: Look at this word http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/te%27i%27ai
13:53 < selpahi> And then read the first comment here: http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=27794;definition=63894
13:53 < selpahi> That sums up krtisfranks :)
13:54 < zipcpi> The most important words in the language
13:54 < zipcpi> rofl
13:54 < selpahi> Yes
13:54 < rutytar> > representation of the beauty in my opinion
13:55 < durka42> coi la selpa'i
13:55 < ldlework> coi ro do
13:55 < selpahi> coi la durka
13:55 < selpahi> coi la cadgu'a
13:55 < selpahi> Btw, the "BAI" of ditcu is {ze'a}
13:55 < zipcpi> Hah
13:55 < durka42> jbo:ze'a
13:55 < mensi> ze'a = [ZEhA] fi'o krafamtei
13:56 < selpahi> lo ka krafamtei cu ka ditcu .i zo krafamtei se pilno pu lo nu zo ditcu se jmina fi la jbovlaste
13:56 < durka42> ie
13:56 < Ilmen> coi
13:56 < zipcpi> Oh ditcu is an experimental gismu
13:56 < zipcpi> ua zo ditcu cu cipra gismu
13:57 < durka42> the 7th most common one
13:57 < durka42> 5th if you ignore "kinda" and "xorlo"
13:57 < selpahi> go'i .i ku'i menre lo cipra gismu poi lo jbopre ke'a so'i roi pilno
13:57 < zipcpi> Yep... but that explains why it is first defined as a lujvo
13:57 < durka42> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Experimental_gismu_and_cmavo_frequency_lists
13:59 < Ilmen> Note that this frequency list is hand-crafted, and may miss some frequent gismu/cmavo
13:59 < durka42> Ilmen: what do the > mean in the first list?
13:59 < Ilmen> I should write some script for generating/updating this list automatically
13:59 < zipcpi> "inflated"?
14:00 < selpahi> Because it's an English word
14:00 < Ilmen> Sorry for the unexplained terminology
14:00 < rutytar> i'm not sure what the policy here for asking for translation help, so tell me if i'm being bothersome
14:00 < zipcpi> Oh...
14:00 < durka42> la bilbo cu sorta kinda ke laldo frodo
14:00 < Ilmen> "kinda" 's number of hits is augmented by its appearance in English utterances as well
14:00 < zipcpi> Right
14:01 < rutytar> in english it's not usual to shorten words unless they have a pretty common usage
14:01 < Ilmen> Usually English utterances are filtered out, but some managed to get into the corpus
14:02 < demize> heh, {kinda sorta}. Funny.
14:02 < rutytar> so in a place where two gismu on their own would work, is it acceptable to use the rafsi to make a lujvo, or does that have some implication of being a single object?
14:02 < selpahi> I would be interested in a by-speaker frequency list
14:02 < durka42> ie
14:02 < Ilmen> ie
14:02 < durka42> that should be generatable from the corpus data
14:02 < selpahi> It should be.
14:03 < selpahi> la su'o da ba zukte
14:03 < Ilmen> durka42: the ">" is... it seems it's for showing more up to date figures
14:03 < durka42> I see
14:04 < durka42> camxes: la su'o da ba zukte
14:04 < camxes> ([{la <(¹su'o BOI¹) da> KU} CU] [ba zukte] VAU)
14:04 < durka42> ue
14:05 < selpahi> rutytar: Turning a tanru into a lujvo is appropriate if you're making a new concept or choosing a specific meaning of the tanru, but the thing is that you have to choose. It's not intended that lujvo just be tanru with fewer letters (i.e. completely vague)
14:05 < selpahi> It depends a little bit on the tanru.
14:05 < Ilmen> Lujvo are lexical units, and should be defined in the dictionary
14:06 < zipcpi> Oh by the way, selpahi: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Proposal:_loi_lerfu_tcita_detri;_the_final_word_on_the_problem_of_dates_and_times%3F
14:06 < selpahi> Yeah, I've read it
14:06 < selpahi> Can't comment yet.
14:06 < durka42> don't worry, selpahi never misses a mriste message
14:06 < zipcpi> :p
14:07 < zipcpi> But yeah, if fi'o ditcu = ze'a, ... that still doesn't really accept a li
14:07 < selpahi> It might if you ask Ilmen zo'o
14:08 < zipcpi> :p
14:08 < Ilmen> sa'u if ditcu-x1 is an event, then it would mean "x1 and x2 (events) have the same duration"
14:08 < Ilmen> which is weirdish
14:08 < durka42> ditcu1 isn't an event though
14:09 < selpahi> I could mention that Toaq Dzu is awesome at units and abstract stuff (saying "red is a beautiful colour" and "for three days and four hours" is easy and succinct), but I shouldn't talk about it until the book is done, which might be never at this pace
14:09 < durka42> .a'u .a'u
14:09 < zipcpi> So what *should* ditcu1 be? My first interpretation was something like lo nanca be li ci
14:09 < durka42> ie
14:09 < selpahi> That's the standard.
14:09 < Ilmen> If ditcu-1 is a duration and not an event, the double-event meaning can be obtained with «ditydu'i»
14:10 < durka42> is nanca1 an event then?
14:10 < durka42> jb:nanca
14:10 < selpahi> Yes
14:10 < mensi> nanca = nanca — x1(clause)  is  x2(number)  years long
14:10 < mensi> :mi nanca li re mu — I am 25 years old.
14:10 < mensi> :mi se zdani ti ze'a lo nanca be li vo — I have been living here for 4 years.
14:10 < mensi> :Related words: detri, djedi, jeftu, masti
14:10 < durka42> hm
14:10 < durka42> I retract my earlier denial then
14:10 < selpahi> lo nu cadzu cu nanca li re
14:12 < zipcpi> Yeah... and then we got into how to say stuff like miles-per-hour. There is a lujvo, cacryminli, but I don't think it's possible to build lujvo for this kinda stuff in any consistent manner
14:13 < zipcpi> There is pi'ai and te'ai, but they tend to be a bit long
14:13 < durka42> yeah, they need rafsi or something
14:13 < shepheb> it seems like there should be a speed gismu or something. x1 has a speed of x2 x3's per x4 ?
14:13 < durka42> nilsutra
14:13 < shepheb> very awkward, though.
14:14 < selpahi> It will always be awkward unless Lojban completely changes the way it handles abstract units.
14:14 < durka42> have there been any proposals?
14:15 < selpahi> I'm not sure. What I've seen are attempts at using what we currently have to get at the abstract, but failing.
14:16 < durka42> -poz- and -toz- are free! :D
14:16 < zipcpi> My system is sort of a hack kinda jumping off the idea of making ISO 8601 fit Lojban better, since ISO 8601 is already in fact a weird string entered into detri1
14:17 < durka42> meh, -toz- doesn't work though because numbers don't have terminal rafsi
14:17  * selpahi notes that this is the second time in 3 minutes that durka has suggested making more rafsi.
14:17 < zipcpi> lol
14:17 < Ilmen> rafsi: toz
14:17 < durka42> wait, what rafsi did I suggest before?
14:17 < durka42> I thought I suggested a BAI
14:17 < selpahi> rafsi for pi'ai and te'ai
14:18 < durka42> my discovery of -poz- and -toz- was directly related to suggesting rafsi for pi'ai and te'ai
14:18 < mensi> zo to'ai se rafsi zo'oi toz
14:18 < Ilmen> rafsi: to'ai
14:18 < mensi> zo'oi toz rafsi zo to'ai
14:18 < durka42> ue
14:18 < selpahi> Ohai to'ai.
14:18 < durka42> need to upgrade vlaste to search for exp. rafsi in cmavo defs as well
14:18 < durka42> .o'ai zo to'ai do mo
14:18 < selpahi> zo to'ai pu pagbu la .oz.
14:18 < selpahi> .i ku'i mi vimcu
14:18 < durka42> ua
14:19 < durka42> hmm are there any zi'evla with proposed rafsi
14:19 < durka42> I think there are
14:19 < durka42> en: mu'umgu
14:19 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
14:19 < durka42> jbo: mu'umgu
14:19 < mensi> mu'umgu = x1 finti x2 lo nu x3 tcaci x4 |>>> lo'e se mu'umgu cu valsi .i lo'e mu'umgu cu krici lo du'u lo da'i nu lo se
14:19 < mensi> mu'umgu cu zasti cu zmadu lo da'i nu lo se mu'umgu cu na'e zasti kei lo ka lo noi lo mu'umgu cu djica ke'a ku'o nu lo te
14:19 < mensi> mu'umgu cu tcaci lo ve mu'umgu cu lakne ce'u .i zo mu'umgu cu se'o sezysarxe se mu'umgu la .telselkik. lo nu mu'umgu kei
14:19 < mensi> loi jbopre .i ra'oi -mug- rafsi ca'e zo mu'umgu |>>> selckiku
14:20 < selpahi> And va'arga -> -va'a-
14:20 < durka42> en: va'arga
14:20 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
14:20 < zipcpi> The main problem I see is that I can't propose lerfu for every abstract measurment system. Heck, the regular symbols for those stuff are often ambiguous because of that reason
14:20 < durka42> jbo: va'arga
14:20 < mensi> va'arga = x1 pluja .i je ku'i x2 ka'e pilno x3 noi slabu vo'a ku'o lo nu sapygau lo go'i lo se go'i |>>> ra'oi -va'a-
14:20 < mensi> rafsi zo va'arga |>>> selckiku
14:21 < durka42> xm
14:21 < durka42> are there any in english
14:21 < durka42> because I haven't implemented multilanguage support yet :)
14:21 < Ilmen> well there are a number of jbovla which lack an English def
14:21 < durka42> ie
14:21 < durka42> I should just spin up a lojban vlasisku instance
14:22 < selpahi> I asked mukti to do that, but he never got around to it
14:22 < Ilmen> xu la vlasisku na se bangu lo jbobau
14:22 < selpahi> We do have jbo-sutsis though
14:22 < durka42> yeah I am falling behind!
14:24 < durka42> oi
14:24  * selpahi si la selpa'i cu xrubazi
14:24 < durka42> r"(?:^|[^\w'])-([\w']+)-(?:[^\w']|$)"
14:25 < durka42> in english: "<word boundary or beginning of text><dash><letters and y'ybu><dash><word boundary or end of text>"
14:25 < durka42> there's gotta be a better way to do those boundaries
14:26 < durka42> coi xrubazi si livrpuzi
14:34 < durka42> vlasisku will now be going down for maintenance… :)
14:37 < durka42> blah, died on {cia'o'e}
14:37 < durka42> en: cia'o'e
14:37 < mensi> cia'o'e = [VUhU] mekso 4-nary operator: spherical harmonics on colatitudinal/polar angle a and azimuthal/longitudinal
14:37 < mensi> angle b of unassociated order c and associated order d. |>>> Usually denoted Y^ml (\theta, \phi). The Condon-Shortley
14:37 < mensi> phase must be prepended to the definition. The normalization is chosen so that the integral over all (solid) angles of
14:37 < mensi> Y^ml(\Omega) conj(Y^nk(\Omega)  = \delta(m,n) \delta(l,k). |>>> krtisfranks
14:37 < durka42> NO
14:40 < durka42> vlaste: coi
14:40 < vlaste> coi = vocative: greetings/hello.
14:40 < durka42> vlaste: affix:toz
14:40 < vlaste> to'ai = conversion: move [['drag-and-drop'] 3rd place to 1st position. Everything else stays in the same order.
14:41 < durka42> .i'e
14:41 < durka42> ii typo!
14:42 < akmnlrse> uo ru'e
14:42 < akmnlrse> cipr: ti ta tu cu ti cu mo ti gi'e bo brode ta zu'i vau lo do famti
14:42 < cipr> ([{FA ti} {FE ta} {FI tu}] [{cu <(¹[FO ti] cu¹) mo (¹[FU ti] VAU¹)>} gi'e bo {CU <brode (¹[{FO ta} {FU zu'i}] vau¹)>} {<FAXI6 (¹lo [do famti] KU¹)> VAU}])
14:42 < akmnlrse> .i je sipna .ai
14:42 < durka42> ue ua
14:42 < durka42> ta'i ma
14:42 < akmnlrse> ta'i lo mabla djavaskripti
14:42 < durka42> .u'i
14:42 < akmnlrse> (to je'a mabla .i ko va'o catlu toi)
14:42 < durka42> bu'u ma mi catlu
14:43 < akmnlrse> https://github.com/mezohe/ilmentufa/tree/morfologi
14:43 < durka42> ua
14:43 < durka42> pegli nenri djavasckripti
14:43 < ldlework> More foh low gee
14:44 < akmnlrse> je'a zmadu lo jai purci lo ka xo kau da pagbu
14:44 < akmnlrse> .i ta'o nai co'o
14:44 < durka42> co'o
17:39 < durka42> lo kibjasyselkei zo'u .ei mi mo
18:31 < niek> coi
18:32 < durka42> coi ru'e
18:33 < niek> coi dy .i ma nuzba
18:35 < durka42> lo kacma pagbu poi mi pu za terve'u minde cu pu zi co'a klama .i tolcliva ca lo bavlamdei la'a .i ui
18:39 < niek> ua
18:40 < niek> xu lo pagbu cu lenjo
18:45 < durka42> na lenjo
18:46 < durka42> lo jai bu'u pilno be le pagbu cu jbini lo lenjo je lo xadni
18:50 < durka42> .ei co'o
19:23 < zipcpi> On systems of time and measurements: Maybe it's just time to go the kurtynomvla route and define a cmavo for each unit of measurement (after all they are treated like mathematical variables). Except that they'd be a lot more useful. zo'oru'e
19:27 < zipcpi> So thirty miles per hour would be li cino pi'i [mai'i] fe'i [cai'ai]
19:27 < zipcpi> Still a bit verbose though. But mathematically elegant
19:28 < ldlework> all the monosyllables should go to this delimiter stuff
19:29 < zipcpi> Which delimiters?
19:30 < ldlework> i imagined there was some sort of delimiter for DIST per TIME
19:30 < zipcpi> Oh the pi'ai and te'ai
19:32 < zipcpi> Great mai'i is a zmico :p
19:34 < zipcpi> I dunno... all these complicated mathematical concepts might be useful but come on, when there are such glaring holes in the system as is it's like building a house from the top down
19:36 < zipcpi> But yeah one problem with letter-variables is that there are only so many to go around. Theoretically there are an infinite possible words in Lojban to assign things to instead. Unfortunately syllabicity is an issue
19:51 < zipcpi> [cei] can also be used to reassign any concept you want to use to a nonce zi'evla. Unfortunately people don't want to be coining their own nonce-words for every document.
19:51 < zipcpi> That's why dictionaries exist
19:56 < zipcpi> I suppose the constraints of cmavo space doesn't really help... there is only one possible consonant at the beginning
19:56 < zipcpi> Then you only have five vowels and four dipthongs
19:56 < zipcpi> You want more, you have to separate them with '
19:57 < zipcpi> Unless we want to start accepting cmavo like kiia
19:57 < zipcpi> But then we'd run into the semivowel marking issue
19:59 < zipcpi> I like selpa'i-'s diacritics aesthetically, but practically? Well they're hard to type
20:16 < zipcpi> I really should be blogging all this
20:16 < zipcpi> Unfortunately I'm not used to blogging
20:27 < zipcpi> Still like the date idea though, since dates are meant to refer to a specific point in time, thus aren't treatable like mathematical variables
20:28 < zipcpi> Well for heavy math there's always once again, word+bu
20:30 < zipcpi> Actually, what happens if we dropped the li?
20:30 < zipcpi> mi broda de'i ny renopamu ly mu dy paze
20:30 < zipcpi> exp: mi broda de'i ny renopamu ly mu dy paze
20:30 < mensi> (mi [CU {broda <de'i (¹ny [re no pa mu ly mu dy pa ze]¹) BOI> VAU}])
20:31 < zipcpi> I just remembered. As long as you start with a letter, Lojban treated any string of numbers and letters as a pronoun
20:32 < zipcpi> So we could define by convention that long "pronouns" of certain formats have a specific meaning
20:33 < zipcpi> Sigh... this is like, the graveyard hour on this channel though
20:35 < zipcpi> I really should go do something else. co'o if anyone's listening
--- Day changed Tue May 19 2015
00:47  * nuzba @uitki: proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/proga:LMW_-_Lojbanic_MediaWiki by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1FlonfS]
00:53  * nuzba @uitki: rinsa - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/rinsa by Mukti - nuzba [http://bit.ly/1ecLIHU]
01:08 < gleki> why do the authors of cekitaujaus havent proposed som CV shortcut for {zo'e} which is much more important than those tu'a and jo'u?
01:12 < gleki> s/do/havent/
01:14  * gleki with my irc "client" it's hard and no fun to edit messages
01:42  * nuzba @uitki: NY SIDA: Contacting/sv - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/MediaWiki:Contacting/sv av Gleki - Kontakt [http://bit.ly/1LglSNW]
01:57 < guest`> I think the "He's left" example on the main page is about semantic ambiguity
02:04 < zipcpi> be'e
02:07 < gleki> re'i
02:07 < zipcpi> coi gleki
02:07 < gleki> coi
02:07 < zipcpi> I just submitted an idea of how to say "miles per hour"
02:07 < zipcpi> It is [pi'ai] minli to'e cacra
02:08 < zipcpi> We may agree to drop pi'ai from all but the most technical contexts
02:08 < zipcpi> to'e broda, where broda is a measurement unit, would mean broda te'ai ni'u pa
02:09 < zipcpi> So to'e snidu is the hertz
02:09 < zipcpi> And to'e mitre is the diopter
02:09 < zipcpi> Philosophically, these units are no longer measuring length, but shortness, in time and in space respectively
02:10 < zipcpi> Thus speed measurements now philosophically mean "the shortness of time taken to travel a certain length"
02:11 < zipcpi> pei
02:11 < gleki> mi jinvi no da
02:13 < zipcpi> Well, another idea I had was to take a page from kyrtis and define PA cmavo for every measurement unit we might want to use, but I don't know how much cmavo space we can afford
02:13 < zipcpi> Because algebraically, measurement units are treated like constants
02:15 < zipcpi> Incidentally I'm kinda worried about krtis
02:16 < zipcpi> But the advantage is then we can use mathematical operators on those units, like su'i
02:18 < zipcpi> Essentially I am defining to'e to have a specialized meaning for measurement unit brivla, to mean its reciprocal.
02:21 < zipcpi> But the mathematical constant idea then makes it possible, assuming {nai'a} for nanca and {dei'i} for djedi
02:22 < zipcpi> To say {li ci [pi'i] nai'a su'i vo [pi'i] dei'i} for "three years and four days"
02:23 < zipcpi> Not sure if dropping those pi'i -s may cause problems
02:25 < zipcpi> I'm assuming it won't be harmful if we're talking about dropping them specifically for these measurement-constants
02:26 < zipcpi> Assuming {mai'i} for minli and {cai'a} for cacra we then get 30 miles per hour = {li cino mai'i fe'i cai'a}
02:28 < zipcpi> Well perhaps you don't understand the underlying math behind it, but just take my word that it should work
02:29 < zipcpi> Sort of like how people who use {gajanai} for if may not be thinking about its logical basis in "(not A) or B"
02:30 < zipcpi> Maybe I'll ask others
02:39 < gleki> especially Curtis since he is a physicist
02:41 < zipcpi> Yeah... but I'm kinda surprised that he'd be adding all these infamous kurtyvla for advanced concepts that probably no other Lojbanist understands... while ignoring these gaps. To me it seems like building a house from the top down
02:45 < zipcpi> Also about his use of cmavo space... has there been any discussions about what to do about that?
02:45 < zipcpi> I don't think anyone else understands what his zmico does. Except maybe Ithkuilists
02:47 < gleki> i dont know. it's a general problem with JVS. now it's a mess.
02:47 < zipcpi> Yeah...
02:47 < gleki> hence i create a La Bagu basic dictionary
02:47 < gleki> *created
02:48 < zipcpi> Yeah but then we have to talk about what to do after the beginner has gained that basic vocabulary
02:48  * zipcpi shrugs
02:49 < zipcpi> Granted I probably need to work on my vocabulary myself. I talk too much about theories and proposals
02:49 < gleki> we need to implement a new db model
02:49 < gleki> and this issue https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131
02:51 < zipcpi> But I think {minli to'e cacra} is simple and non-transgressive enough to be included even in La Bangu
02:52 < gleki> you may just try translating sentences in Tatoeba.org with velocities, acceleration etc.
02:54 < zipcpi> It won't use a whole bunch of new cmavo and I don't think {to'e cacra} would need to mean anything else other than "reciprocal of the hour"
02:54 < gleki> i mean start translating real life examples as "i drove x miles per hour"
02:54  * zipcpi nods
02:55 < gleki> as of now the only solution is {mi klama ze'a lo cacra be li mo'e pa da vi'i lo minli be li mo'e xano da
02:56 < Ilmen> Why "da"?
02:56 < gleki> because it's a variable
02:57 < gleki> you cant use constants there
02:57 < zipcpi> Are we just dropping the "drove in a car" sense?
02:57 < Ilmen> exp: mi klama ze'a lo cacra be li mo'e pa da
02:57 < mensi> (mi [CU {klama <ze'a (¹lo [cacra {be <li (²[mo'e {<pa BOI> da} TEhU] BOI²) LOhO> BEhO}] KU¹)> VAU}])
02:57 < gleki> en:mo'e
02:57 < mensi> mo'e = [MOhE] convert sumti to mex operand; sample use in story arithmetic: [3 apples] + [3 apples] = what.
02:57 < zipcpi> I know one has to be careful about lujvo and tanru in Lojban and avoid using too specific words when a more general word would do
02:57 < zipcpi> Otherwise we'd then just be saying "car" ten times in one sentence
02:58 < gleki> i think it's also fine to apply this ze'a/vi'i to {mi sazri lo karce}
03:00 < zipcpi> I don't think ze'a/vi'i is actually correct. Call me pedantic. But 30 miles per hour doesn't actually mean that you drove 30 actual miles during an actual hour
03:01 < zipcpi> It refers to an abstracted speed during an instant
03:02 < zipcpi> An infinitesimal distance over an infinitesimal period of time
03:02 < zipcpi> It's a calculus thing
03:02 < zipcpi> And now I probably just sound like Curtis to you :p
03:03 < gleki> yes, that's why variables. you could drove for just one second at that speed
03:04 < zipcpi> Velocity (speed + direction) is the derivative of position. Acceleration is the derivative of velocity
03:04 < gleki> did you want something else?
03:04 < zipcpi> Oh the da. Hmm... There is no "epsilon" in Lojban is there?
03:04 < gleki> *you could drive
03:05 < zipcpi> Anyway even if there was this construction is probably way too complicated for common usage. {minli to'e cacra} on the other hand isn't
03:05 < gleki> {da} can be equal to 1/3600 then you get only one second
03:05 < zipcpi> Theoretically it refers to an instantaneous period of time
03:05 < zipcpi> So da isn't quite sufficient for that sense
03:06 < zipcpi> Mathematicians call it the epsilon
03:06 < gleki> this vi'i/ze'a/da is the average speed for that period of time/place
03:07  * zipcpi shrugs... anyway we can all throw that out the window with {mi sazri lo karce fi'o minli to'e cacra li ci}
03:08 < zipcpi> Wait... that means three miles per hour... very slow :p
03:11 < guest`> zipcpi: AFAIK acceleration is the integral of velocity and velocity is the integral of position, integrating in relation to time
03:11 < zipcpi> {mi sazri lo karce fi'o minli to'e cacra li xano} = I drove at sixty miles per hour
03:11 < zipcpi> .... I'm pretty sure it's the derivative
03:11 < phma_> velocity is derivative of position
03:12 < zipcpi> Wait that should be fi'o se I think
03:12 < zipcpi> Yeah
03:12 < zipcpi> {mi sazri lo karce fi'o se minli to'e cacra li xano}
03:13 < zipcpi> seke sorry
03:13 < zipcpi> {mi sazri lo karce fi'o se ke minli to'e cacra li xano}
03:15 < zipcpi> Well that is one advantage of lujvo over tanru. Less worry about grouping
03:17 < gleki> the problem with this "solution" is that it multiplies entities. existing grammar should solve it
03:18 < zipcpi> I'm telling you it doesn't unless you want to bring in stuff like epsilons
03:18 < gleki> eh what are epsilons?
03:19 < zipcpi> An infinitesimal value, used in calculus
03:19 < gleki> en:ci'i
03:19 < mensi> ci'i = [PA5] digit/number: infinity; followed by digits => aleph cardinality.
03:19 < gleki> never heard of that in lojban
03:19 < zipcpi> infinitesimal = infinitely small
03:20 < gleki> en:infinite
03:20 < mensi> 14 da se tolcri: cimni, ci'iroi, cimnyselcmi, emna, fatysaclu, funtiio, ka'au, ni'e'oi, pau'ei, pletomino, rakle,
03:20 < mensi> ratniklesi, suzdektyki'o, tcelerita
03:21 < gleki> exp:coi
03:21 < mensi> (coi DOhU)
03:21 < gleki> hm, so RAM problems with mensi???
03:21 < zipcpi> And indeed if we accept the existence of pi'ai {mi sazri lo karce je cu pi'ai minli to'e cacra li xano} is about as semantically precise as it gets
03:21 < gleki> en:infinitesi
03:21 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
03:21 < gleki> en: cimni
03:21 < mensi> cimni = x1 is infinite/unending/eternal in property/dimension x2, to degree x3 (quantity)/of type x3. |>>> Also
03:21 < mensi> everlasting, eternity, (= cimnytei), eternal (= cimnyteikai or temcimni). See also vitno, renvi, munje, fanmo, sisti.
03:21 < mensi> |>>> officialdata
03:22 < zipcpi> No need to apply epsilons to ze'a and vi'i
03:22 < gleki> so epsilon is {fi'u ci'i}?
03:22 < gleki> before adding any lujvo or new rules for tanru we must explain them in usual Lojban no matter how verbose it'd be
03:22 < zipcpi> Well it has a different sense, in that it's like an "arbitrarily small value"
03:23 < gleki> en:epsilon
03:23 < zipcpi> It's kinda like this.... Perhaps you are driving at 60 miles an hour, but you are gradually slowing down
03:23 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
03:23 < gleki> i can't believe Curtis didnt add this
03:23 < zipcpi> Exactly what I mean! Why is he adding this stuff nobody understands while ignoring all these foundations
03:24 < zipcpi> It's like building a house from the top down
03:24 < gleki> wait, are you saying epsilons arent conencted to alpha cardinality?
03:24 < zipcpi> I don't know what alpha cardinality is
03:24 < zipcpi> But epsilons are fundamental to calculus
03:25 < zipcpi> Oh wait I think I remember now
03:25 < zipcpi> Actually it's aleph cardinality isn't it?
03:25 < zipcpi> In which case, no, it's not connected
03:25 < zipcpi> aleph cardenality refers to set theory
03:25 < zipcpi> For example, the number of natural numbers is li ci'i
03:25 < zipcpi> Or more properly li ci'i xi no
03:25 < zipcpi> Aleph-null
03:26 < zipcpi> *number of natural numbers that exist
03:27 < zipcpi> Which also equals the number of even numbers that exist, and the number of prime numbers that exist
03:27 < phma_> How do you express transfinite ordinals?
03:28 < zipcpi> I don't think Lojban has that yet
03:31 < zipcpi> Perhaps you are driving at 60 miles an hour, but you are gradually slowing down, such that if you actually measured how much you traveled in an actual hour it is 30. If you reduce that time span to half an hour that number might change to 40 mph. If you reduce it to one second, it might be 59.5
03:31 < zipcpi> But your actual speed at that actual instant of time is properly defined as the limit as the timespan approaches zero
03:32 < zipcpi> It can't actually be zero because otherwise you'd divide by zero
03:32 < zipcpi> Hence, epsilon
03:33 < zipcpi> It means "value that arbitrarily approaches zero"
03:33 < phma_> delta
03:33 < zipcpi> Yeah delta-p over delta-t
03:38 < zipcpi> delta-p = 60 * epsilon * mile, where delta-t = epsilon * hour
03:46 < guest`> gleki: {fi'u ci'i} is infinitesimal. epsilon is Newton's complicated way to express it, because Newton's calculus become more popular than Leibniz's hyperreal numbers
03:54 < zipcpi> phma_ If you want transfinite ordinals we need something that means omega, since ci'i is defined as referring to aleph-cardinality
03:55 < zipcpi> But I'm not a trained mathematician... all I know about that is what I could absorb from Wikipedia articles
03:58 < zipcpi> If I remember right if ci'i is defind that way li fi'u ci'i du li no
03:59 < zipcpi> i.e. just collapses to zero, and not usable for the concept of "epsilon"
03:59 < zipcpi> coi .zyxl. Welcome to the madness
03:59 < phma_> There are different kinds of infinity.
03:59 < Zyxl> coi do
03:59 < Zyxl> Yes there are.
03:59 < zipcpi> Exactly.
04:00 < phma_> There's just plain infinity, then there are positive and negative infinity, and then there are the transfinite ordinals and cardinals.
04:00 < Zyxl> 'Plain infinity'; I think you mean absolute infinity.
04:01 < guest`> zipcpi: the limit (aproximation to real number) of infinitesimal is zero, the value of it is a hyperreal number
04:01 < zipcpi> Which infinitesimal though? ci'i is defined as aleph-null
04:02 < Zyxl> 1 / aleph-null?
04:02 < zipcpi> We'd need more PA-cmavo if we want to express other kinds of infinity
04:03 < zipcpi> Yeah... is 1 / aleph-null defined?
04:04 < zipcpi> I thought it was 0 but I could be wrong
04:04 < phma_> aleph null is not equal to aleph one, so their reciprocals should not be equal either
04:04 < Zyxl> I think it is infinitesimal: "Such a number is infinite, and its reciprocal is infinitesimal" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number
04:04 < guest`> zipcpi: AFAIK in Leibniz's hyperreal numbers, infitesimal is 1/aleph-null
04:05 < Zyxl> I don't think the  reciprocals are equal, but both are infinitesimal.
04:05 < guest`> infinitesimal squared is 1/aleph one
04:05 < phma_> no it isn't
04:05 < phma_> aleph null squared is aleph null
04:06 < phma_> however, omega squared is greater than omega
04:07 < zipcpi> I think we completely lost gleki. I'm only half lost :p
04:07 < Zyxl> I thought omega squared was omega, given that omega is infinite.
04:07 < zipcpi> There are different kinds of infinity
04:08 < Zyxl> Are you sure you're not thinking of w^w^w^w... ?
04:08 < zipcpi> Omega is the ordinal transfinite
04:09 < Zyxl> Yes, but you can't make one infinity into another by a finite number of operations...I think.
04:09 < zipcpi> So omega < omega + 1 < omega + 2 < ... < 2 * omega < 2 * omega + 1 < 3 * omega < ... < omega^2
04:09 < Zyxl> Wait, it that what the ordinal part means?
04:10 < zipcpi> Yes, in that there is an order to them (loosely speaking)
04:10 < zipcpi> While cardinal numbers don't act like that. Aleph-null + 1 = Aleph null
04:10 < zipcpi> Aleph-null * 2 = Aleph-null
04:10 < zipcpi> But Aleph-null ^ 2 = Aleph-one
04:11 < zipcpi> Wait... no
04:11 < zipcpi> It's 2 ^ aleph-null = aleph-one
04:11 < phma_> no, aleph-one is the first uncountable cardinal
04:11 < Zyxl> 2^aleph-null = aleph null
04:11 < phma_> which may or may not be equal to 2^aleph-null
04:12 < Zyxl> It isn't.
04:12 < zipcpi> No 2 ^ aleph-null is definitely not aleph-null. That's where you get to the difference between countable and uncountable infinity
04:12 < zipcpi> Aleph-null is countable, while 2 ^ aleph-null is not
04:12 < zipcpi> Ah yes I remember now. 2 ^ aleph-null = beth-one
04:13 < phma_> 2^aleph-null > aleph-null, but it could be aleph-one or aleph-two
04:13 < phma_> are there gimel numbers
04:14 < zipcpi> No beth is specially defined so that beth_x = 2^beth_x-1
04:14 < Zyxl> I think 2^aleph-null is still countable because you could get there by following a process.
04:14 < zipcpi> Beth_0 is defined as Aleph_0
04:14 < Zyxl> Count the natural numbers like 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, ...
04:15 < zipcpi> No. Just like 2^3 = 8 = the number of ways you can arrange 3 bits
04:16 < zipcpi> So 2^aleph-null = aleph-null bits
04:16 < zipcpi> Which are real numbers
04:16 < zipcpi> *Which map to real numbers
04:16 < Zyxl> What?
04:16 < Zyxl> No they don't!
04:16 < zipcpi> Take the real numbers in interval [0,1)
04:17 < zipcpi> Each one has a binary representation of e.g. 0.0100010001111...
04:17 < zipcpi> Going on to infinity
04:17 < phma_> I need to cook, so I'll leave the baseball fan and the ornithologist to discuss cardinals and orioles.
04:17 < Zyxl> So?
04:18 < zipcpi> So the real numbers in [0,1) are isomorphic to the number of ways you can arrange aleph-null bits.
04:18 < Zyxl> That cannot be implied from that.
04:19 < zipcpi> lo'ai are isomorphic sa'ai have one-to-one correspondence le'ai
04:19 < Zyxl> You can't represent any real number even with an infinite (aleph-null) number of bits.
04:20 < zipcpi> No... the number of bits is aleph-null; countable infinite. But the number of real numbers is uncountable
04:20 < Zyxl> I know that.
04:21 < zipcpi> It is countable. A real number is simply the limit of the sum of b0 + b1 / 2 + b2 / 2^2 + b3 / 2^3 etc.
04:22 < Zyxl> Not if it's irrational.
04:22 < zipcpi> Then it is represented by a countably-infinite number of bits
04:22 < Zyxl> Wait, nevermind.
04:24  * nuzba @clippyville: Lojban on Vine https://vine.co/search/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1IIXs1y]
04:24 < zipcpi> Also we were only talking about [0,1) but it is mappable to the entire real number line by making the decimal point be say [1110] and replacing all actual [1110] strings in the number with [11110], [11110] with [111110], and so on and so forth
04:25 < guest`> zipcpi: ci'i just refers to aleph cardinality if followed by digits so {fi'u ci'i} can be Leibniz's infinitesimal
04:25 < zipcpi> Anyway having established that the real numbers have one-to-one-correspondence to the information in an aleph-null number of bits
04:26 < zipcpi> Cantor's diagonal argument proves uncountability of the cardinality of the real numbers
04:26 < zipcpi> Is anyone recording this convo? :p
04:28 < Zyxl> I'm not sure of your assertion that any real number is the limit of b0 + b1 / 2 + b2 / 2^2 + ...
04:28 < zipcpi> guest`: Hmm... might still be better to dedicate something specifically to epsilon though. If there is ever a need to perform that sort of calculus in Lojban; unlike Curtis, I'm afraid of adding new cmavo for all these concepts that I only half-understand
04:28 < Zyxl> Anyway, apparently it is true if the continuum hypothesis is true: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2^%28aleph-0%29
04:29 < Ilmen> zipcpi: IMO, adding predicates is more important than adding cmavo, even for mathematical stuff
04:30 < Ilmen> Moreover, mathematic predicate can be imported into mex formulae, by using {na'u}, for example
04:30 < zipcpi> Hmm... yeah makes sense
04:30 < Ilmen> For example, {sinso} has no cmavo counterpart
04:30 < Ilmen> doesn't mean it's unusable in mex
04:31 < zipcpi> One problem with Lojban as it was originally designed was that there wasn't an easy brivla counterpart to many cmavo concepts. Including the attitudinals
04:31 < zipcpi> That's why selpahi added all those **nmo zi'evla
04:31 < Ilmen> A fair amount of sumtcita also lacked a brivla counterpart; that's not much the case anymore
04:32  * zipcpi nods
04:35 < Ilmen> Lojban is intended to be a *predicate* language, so I don't really understand why people have been so eager to add tons of sumtcita words or UI words, even without caring whether they had a predicate word equivalent
04:35 < zipcpi> Heh
04:36 < Ilmen> In Gua\spi, there are no sumtcita word at all
04:37 < Ilmen> a device similar to {xoi} is used instead
04:37 < Ilmen> So you needn't memorizing separately sumtcita words and predicate words
04:39 < zipcpi> Zyxl: Actually not any real number. Just the ones in [0,1)
04:40 < zipcpi> Then the entire number line is just that multiplied by the number of integers
04:40 < Zyxl> Exactly, so there's really no need to limit the range.
04:40 < Zyxl> Both are aleph-one
04:40  * zipcpi nods
04:41 < gleki> zipcpi: you lost gleki for other extra chat reasons
04:41 < zipcpi> Actually beth-one. There is a conjecture that beth-one = aleph-one but it isn't proven
04:42 < Zyxl> Yes, that's the continuum hypothesis that I mentioned.
04:42  * zipcpi nods
04:42 < Zyxl> The point is, 2^(aleph-null) > aleph-null
04:42  * zipcpi nods
04:42 < Zyxl> Whether that is aleph-one is uncertain.
04:43 < gleki> in guaspi there are neither sumtcita, nor UI, nor rafsi.
04:43 < Ilmen> ie
04:43 < gleki> zgana/za'a/ga'a/zgan are all one word in guaspi
04:43 < gleki> zgana/za'a/ga'a/zga are all one word in guaspi
04:43 < gleki> so you learn one root instead of 4
04:44 < Ilmen> Yeah, that's more elegant
04:44 < Ilmen> And less memory-heavy
04:44 < gleki> zgana/sei zgana/fi'o zgana
04:44 < zipcpi> Anyway back to the more practical matter of how to represent "miles per hour". My opinion is still that {[pi'ai] minli to'e cacra} is the most elegant way to express it without being a transgressive solution like adding measurement-constant cmavo
04:45 < gleki> i dont know whether fi'u/ci'i is epsilon (if not create a new word) but then just replace this {da} in ze'a/vi'i/da example with a constant like epsilon
04:46 < zipcpi> It's a semantic issue. da is like X
04:46 < gleki> zipcpi: this is not a pure solution. this is a proposal to add new entities to the language.
04:46 < zipcpi> What new entities?
04:46 < gleki> since before that tanru never worked this way
04:46 < gleki> new rules for tanru
04:46 < zipcpi> Ask the inventor of pi'ai then
04:47 < gleki> first express that in legal Lojban
04:47 < gleki> pi'ai is not a part of legal Lojban.
04:47 < zipcpi> I can't do that without epsilons
04:47 < gleki> it's a patch.
04:47 < zipcpi> And even if I had an epsilon I don't remember how to do it
04:49 < Ilmen> meksepsilo = x1 is epsilon
04:49 < gleki> yes, take that then see what can be done
04:50 < zipcpi> Just replace da with na'u meksepsilo
04:50 < zipcpi> That's it... as long as the original sentence is correctly formatted. I haven't checked
04:51 < zipcpi> Basically "I drive the car, over epsilon hours and over 60*epsilon miles
04:51 < zipcpi> Wait da is a sumti
04:51 < zipcpi> So lo meksepsilo goi my
04:51 < zipcpi> Then use my for da in the second use
04:53 < zipcpi> But the issue with pi'ai is the issue of dimensionality
04:53 < zipcpi> If you want to define pi'ai you have to define dimensionality
04:54 < zipcpi> At the very least though all this is just philosophical. For general use I'm sure minli to'e cacra is fine. It's better than cacryminli
05:00 < zipcpi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensional_analysis
05:02 < zipcpi> Hmm... "I drive the car, such that over epsilon hours, I traveled 60*epsilon miles.
05:03 < zipcpi> Any mathematicians or wannabe-mathematicians want to correct me on that? :p
05:04 < zipcpi> Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with Lojban's tense system to figure out how to translate that accurately
05:05 < zipcpi> Like I said, too much theory, not enough vocab
05:08 < zipcpi> The problem is how much is packed into the simple statement "miles per hour"
05:08 < zipcpi> Like I said, it's all about derivatives and dimensionality
05:09 < zipcpi> All that is packed into a simple phrase that people use everyday without understanding these concepts
05:09 < zipcpi> And if you think that is crazy, try "meters per second squared"
05:10 < zipcpi> Or kilogram * meter^2 * second^-3, the definition of a watt
05:11 < gleki> that can be split into (kg (m ( / s ( / s ( / s
05:11 < zipcpi> kg * m * m / s / s / s
05:11 < zipcpi> Acutally
05:13 < Zyxl> How about "I drive the vehicle, for ANY x (in the set of non-negative real numbers) hours a distance of 60x miles."?
05:14 < zipcpi> That doesn't cover the case of "60 miles per hour, but slowing down (or speeding up)"
05:14 < gleki> you can't drive that perfectly.
05:14 < Zyxl> That way it is talking about instantaneous velocity, because this statement has to apply for ANY x.
05:14 < gleki> sometimes you will stop but overall average speed will be 60 miles
05:14 < zipcpi> It's not any x. It is epsilon
05:14 < gleki>  per hour
05:14 < Zyxl> But epsilon will just confuse people.
05:15 < zipcpi> Well then we have a difference between instantaneous speed and average speed
05:15 < zipcpi> But both have the same dimensionality
05:16 < Zyxl> No matter what speed you are going you will technically travel 60 * epsilon miles in epsilon hours.
05:16 < zipcpi> Zyxl: I agree. Which is why I'm telling gleki; avoiding tanru due to fears of how to define this particular use is not the way to go
05:16 < zipcpi> Because all this is philosophical stuff, about dimensionality, about how much is packed into the simple phrase "miles per hour"
05:17 < zipcpi> We can argue about that all we want, but first we need to establish how to *say* "miles per hour"
05:18 < Zyxl> Shouldn't it be "unit of distance per unit of time"?
05:18 < gleki> are we still talking about average speed?
05:19 < gleki> how do you distinguish between average and perfect speed?
05:19 < zipcpi> Maybe the tense for "at this instance" and "over a period of time"? Anyway they are both measured by the same units
05:20 < zipcpi> So the phrase of "miles per hour" won't necessarily need to disambiguate between the two
05:20 < gleki> because epsilon is arbitrary?
05:20 < zipcpi> No because they have the same dimensionality
05:21 < zipcpi> It is the dimensionality of length divided over the dimensionality of time
05:21 < gleki> hm that's not what i wanted efinitely
05:21 < gleki> *definitely
05:22 < zipcpi> That *is* what "miles per hour" means
05:23 < gleki> i need to separate this very different cases
05:23 < Zyxl> We might also want to allow for "hours per mile".
05:24 < zipcpi> Zyxl: Which is why I like to'e
05:24 < Zyxl> Care to give an example?
05:24 < zipcpi> Because just like an hour measures the length of time, an "anti-hour" measures shortness of time
05:25 < Zyxl> I don't get it.
05:25 < zipcpi> It's like how second^-1 = Hertz, and meter^-1 = diopter
05:25 < Zyxl> Right...but how would I use that in Lojban?
05:26 < zipcpi> to'e snidu = x1 (period) is x2 Hertz
05:27 < Zyxl> Okay, thanks.
05:28 < Zyxl> So you could say "miles^-1 per hour^-1" to say "hours per mile"?
05:28 < zipcpi> cacra to'e minli
05:28 < zipcpi> [pi'ai] cacra to'e minli
05:30 < zipcpi> Which is equivalent to [pi'ai] to'e ke minli to'e cacra
05:31 < zipcpi> Thus "hours per mile" measures slowness rather than speed
05:31 < zipcpi> je'epei
05:35 < Zyxl> to'e negates just the first one, right? "to'e ke minli to'e cacra" looks like miles^-1 * hours^-1.
05:36 < zipcpi> ke is tanru parenthesis
05:37 < zipcpi> Without it it'd only affect minli
05:37 < zipcpi> With it it affects "minli to'e cacra"
05:38 < Zyxl> Oh, so how do you close it? Sorry for all these noobish questions.
05:38 < zipcpi> ke'e
05:38 < Zyxl> ki'e
05:42 < zipcpi> That weird experimental cmavo, pi'ai, is in fact just a specialized ke
05:43 < zipcpi> And would also be closed by ke'e
06:00 < zipcpi> I put it in brackets because my idea is that it won't be needed except in technical contexts
06:00 < zipcpi> Otherwise the tanru is fine
06:06 < zipcpi> lo ni cnano sutra
06:06 < zipcpi> No...
06:06 < zipcpi> lo cnano ni sutra
06:07 < zipcpi> lo mokca ni sutra
06:07 < zipcpi> exp: lo mokca ni sutra
06:07 < mensi> ([lo {mokca <ni (¹CU [sutra VAU]¹) KEI>} KU] VAU)
06:09 < gleki> en: tcelerita
06:09 < zipcpi> Is that a kurtyvla
06:10 < gleki> go'i
06:11 < zipcpi> u'iru'e
06:11 < zipcpi> ... I actually understand a kurtyvla :o
06:11 < zipcpi> It's what is commonly known as "the speed of light"
06:12 < zipcpi> c0
06:12 < gleki> en: tcelerita
06:12 < mensi> tcelerita = x1 (number; default: 1) is the physical speed supremum (for objects of positive masses)/celeritas/c0
06:12 < mensi> expressed in units x2 (default: in terms of natural parameter c0; id est: unitless/dimensionless and equal to 1) in
06:12 < mensi> (paradigm/system of) physics x3 (default: this, our actual. physical universe and reality); |>>> In the Newtonian model,
06:12 < mensi> for any finite nonzero units of spatial length and temporal duration, c0 is infinitely large.  In the modern
06:12 < mensi> Relativistic/Einsteinian paradigm of physics, c0 is a finite positive number for any finite nonzero units of spatial
06:12 < mensi> length and temporal duration; thus, in such cases, we can set it equal to 1 (begin measuring in terms of percentage of
06:12 < mensi> c0) and gain scal...
06:12 < mensi> [mo'u se katna] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/tcelerita
06:13 < zipcpi> Yeah he just has to be so hyperspecific about everything that it's buried in all that jargon
06:14 < Ilmen> za'a nalsti lo ka cmaci casnu
06:14 < zipcpi> u'i
06:14 < Ilmen> .i ku'i xamgu fa lo nu cmaci casnu .i tolcafne ze'a lo bradu'e
06:15 < Ilmen> .i ku'i mi na mutce co pensi lo bi'unai nabmi .i ja'e bo li so'u ni mi plixau lo nu casnu
06:16 < Ilmen> ju'i nai jbopli
06:18  * nuzba @uitki: La Bangu: Dictionary with Examples - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu:_Dictionary_with_Examples by Gleki - /* Advanced situations */ [http://bit.ly/1Hs4CHc]
06:22 < Ilmen> en: cketake
06:22 < mensi> cketake = x1 is a cetacean of species/breed x2 |>>> superset of balnema, delfinu |>>>
06:22 < mensi> zozeizeizeizeifaho
06:22 < Ilmen> en: tcetace
06:22 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
06:23 < zipcpi> Wait what?
06:23 < zipcpi> Oh you replaced it
06:23 < Ilmen> No, {tcetace} is not yet in the IRC bot db it seems
06:23 < Ilmen> {cketake} is earlier
06:23 < zipcpi> Ah
06:24 < Ilmen> I'll add it as a synonym
06:24 < zipcpi> Dang didn't know that word already existed when I coined tcetace
06:24 < zipcpi> It's only been used on my MTG card translation attempt :p
06:25 < Ilmen> I'm adding "Synonym: {cketake}." to the notes of {tcetace}
06:25 < Ilmen> .i'e pei
06:25 < zipcpi> I dunno. You can delete it if you want... though I'm not sure that's even possible
06:26 < Ilmen> No, only downvoting is possible. And, synonyms is not necessarily a bad thing
06:26 < Ilmen> people will use the one they prefer
06:26 < zipcpi> Ah
06:26 < Ilmen> IRC bots do not show words with less than one vote, tho'
06:26 < zipcpi> Mm
06:44 < gleki> {tcetace} sounds a bit better since no arbitrary one-letter prefixes
06:46 < Ilmen> Arbitrary prefix isn't necessarily a bad thing, it exists also in natlangs: English "special" --> Español "especial"
06:46 < Ilmen> style/estilo, etc
06:50 < gleki> esporte
06:51 < gleki> but in Spanish it isnt arbitrary
06:51 < Ilmen> Maybe "special" is a slinkuhi in Spanish
06:51 < Ilmen> zo'o
06:51 < zipcpi> u'i
06:51 < gleki> something like that ju'o
06:54 < zipcpi> But yeah my opinion is that if you accept dimensionality works then we can accept that pi'ai works, and we can also accept that to'e for measurements means its reciprocal
06:55 < zipcpi> If it is needed to disambiguate between instantaneous and average speed we could use mokce ni sutra or cnano ni sutra
06:55 < Ilmen> mokca
06:55 < zipcpi> Oh
06:56 < Ilmen> na nabmi .i mi jungau te zu'e lo nu sidju
06:57 < gleki> si'au la guskant co'a mulno certu lo ka stika lo uitki papri
06:58 < Ilmen> .i'e
06:58 < zipcpi> Actually we might even define something that can work as reciprocals to anything, so we can say "2.5 children per family"
06:58 < zipcpi> Though there's probably already a way to say that?
06:59 < zipcpi> But obviously this does not mean any family actually has 2.5 children :p
07:00 < zipcpi> But te'ai ni'u pa is too much
07:09 < Ilmen> .u'i li'a
07:12 < zipcpi> zo co'i cu sumtcita lo ka mokca i'au je'upei
07:16 < zipcpi> mu'a lu <lo ni sutra kei be lo nu mi sazri lo karce kei co'i pi'ai minli to'e cacra li xano> li'u
07:21 < zipcpi> coi durkavore
07:22 < durka42> coi
07:25 < gleki> zipcpi: mw.lojban.org/papri/Stub:_Grammatical_aspects
07:25 < zipcpi> ki'e
07:29 < zipcpi> Hmm some of them are blank?
07:30 < gleki> where?
07:30 < zipcpi> "crescendo" "decrescendo"
07:30 < zipcpi> Incidentally I still remember the Chinese crescendo tense
07:30 < gleki> yes, except {zenba/jdika} we dont have sumtcita
07:30 < zipcpi> Mm
07:31 < gleki> and in this table i just put all aspects that i could find from Wikipedia and other sources. so it's not a perfect table. it just reflects what different people think and what terms they use
07:31 < zipcpi> ua
07:31 < Ilmen> "xoi zilzena"
07:33 < gleki> this table is a translation into Lojban. not from Lojban.
07:33 < gleki> the last two tables are from Wierzbicka
07:34 < gleki> again begin/finish doesnt exist in Lojban
07:34 < gleki> maybe some sumtcita combinations would work
07:34 < gleki> idk
07:35 < gleki> "defective" is {naru'e} although it sounds like a hack
07:35 < gleki> {me'iva'e} would be better
07:35 < Ilmen> en: kaijbi
07:35 < mensi> kaijbi [< ckaji jibni ≈ Attribute near] = x1 is close to having property/almost has property/is/does almost x2 (ka) |>>>
07:35 < mensi> selpahi
07:35 < zipcpi> Malay has the accidental aspect
07:35 < Ilmen> x1 kaijbi lo ka fasnu
07:35 < zipcpi> Saya *ter*jatuh
07:36 < Ilmen> maybe "xoi faujbi"
07:36 < Ilmen> using fi'o would be weird if faujbi is unary
07:36 < gleki> zipcpi: then needs to be added to the table
07:37 < gleki> i dont understand a word here http://wwwstaff.eva.mpg.de/~gil/ismil/14/abstracts/Krafft.pdf
07:38 < zipcpi> srera / fi'o srera ?
07:39 < Ilmen> fi'o snuti
07:39 < Ilmen> is an option too
07:39 < Ilmen> er
07:39 < Ilmen> xoi snuti
07:39 < zipcpi> Yeah that's probably better. snuti covers cases where you accidentally do something, but you don't mind it
07:40 < zipcpi> srera means that you are wrong in doing it/ didn't want to do it
07:40 < zipcpi> At least, in my opinion
07:42 < zipcpi> u'i le papri
07:44 < gleki> oh, maybe it's {zu'enai}
07:45 < zipcpi> zu'enai means fi'o to'e zukte right?
07:45 < zipcpi> Not sure if that means what we want it to mean
07:46 < gleki> "anti-intentionally" probably
07:46 < gleki> or {zu'ecu'i}
07:46 < zipcpi> But zukte both implies intentionally and agency
07:46 < zipcpi> *intentionality
07:47 < zipcpi> So it's hard to negate one aspect without also negating the other
07:47 < gleki> accidentally ~= not intentionally
07:47 < gleki> dukti: snuti
07:47 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
07:47 < gleki> dukti: zukte
07:47 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
07:47 < gleki> jbo: zukte
07:47 < mensi> zukte = x1 gasnu lo nu x1 ckaji x2 kei mu'i lo nu x1 kanpe lo nu lo nu x1 ckaji x2 cu se jalge x3 |>>>
07:47 < mensi> selpahi
07:47 < gleki> jbo: snuti
07:47 < mensi> snuti = x1 to'e se zukte x2 zi'o zi'o |>>> zukte; cunso |>>> jkominek
07:47 < gleki> ua
07:47 < gleki> i la kominek
07:53 < gleki> i la'a lu zu'enai li'u mapti zmadu
07:57  * nuzba @uitki: Stub: Grammatical aspects - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Stub:_Grammatical_aspects by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1S7ayZ8]
08:05 < zipcpi> exp: ni'utni
08:05 < mensi> (CU [ni'utni VAU])
08:05 < zipcpi> exp: niiutni
08:06 < mensi> (CU [ni {CU <iutni VAU>} KEI] VAU)
08:06 < zipcpi> ... wait I thought it can't break like that
08:06 < zipcpi> That would be ni .iutni
08:07 < zipcpi> But maybe because it just breaks the rule of "consonant cluster in first five non-y letters"
08:08 < zipcpi> So I was wrong that all the old zi'evla can be updated regularly then
08:09 < zipcpi> Some need to be CVGV, some need to be CV'V
08:09 < zipcpi> Some may need another treatment altogether
08:15 < zipcpi> exp: niiu
08:15 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [uU] or [yY] but "i" found.
08:16 < zipcpi> exp lo niiu
08:16 < zipcpi> exp: lo niiu
08:16 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [uU] or [yY] but "i" found.
08:16 < zipcpi> So CVGV cmavo are still not allowed. Interesting
08:20 < selpahi> zipcpi: niiu is simply two words. Glides aren't really all that different from plain consonants.
08:21 < selpahi> CVCV is two words, so is "CVGV"
08:22 < zipcpi> So we basically nixed the rule that <iu> needs a pause then?
08:23 < zipcpi> I don't mind that though really
08:23 < zipcpi> It's pretty dumb
08:23 < selpahi> That rule has been gone for years, yes :)
08:24 < selpahi> Though people are still catching on to it.
08:24 < zipcpi> Well then my "Modern Lojban Theory" is out of date :p
08:34 < rutytar> is there anything which is essentially an addendum to the cll covering 'modern rules'?
08:34 < selpahi> zipcpi: The only recent change is that both *{bauua} and *{bauie} used to be illegal (in camxes), and now ony the former is illegal.
08:35 < selpahi> The former now needs to be {bau.ua}
08:35 < selpahi> rutytar: It's all rather spread out over the wiki and mailing lists and shared knowledge. The BPFK pages are a good place to start
08:36 < selpahi> (http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Sections)
08:41 < rutytar> selpahi: i'o
08:47 < selpahi> https://8ch.net/jbo/res/260.html#260
08:48 < selpahi> .title
08:48 < phenny> selpahi: /jbo/ - so'i da nabmi je cu srana lo jbobau .i ku'i lo nu se mansa tau lo tanru cu fanta lo nu facki lo du'u ma kau je'a danfu
08:48 < selpahi> .u'e
08:48 < zipcpi> "tanrus are never the answer" I'm so hurt
08:49 < selpahi> zo'o pei
08:50 < zipcpi> zo'o nai ji'au zo'o
08:50 < zipcpi> refkusi cnima'o
09:03 < zipcpi> be'e
09:03 < gleki> re~i
09:04 < zipcpi> .yyy. za'a la vlasisku cu spofu
09:04 < zipcpi> ca akti
09:04 < selpahi> gihi ma
09:04 < gleki> la'a lo drata na spofu
09:05 < gleki> alta: mo gi'i ma
09:05 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected ['h] or ['hiI] but end of input found.
09:07 < zipcpi> "The glass is not always half full" -> " lo blacykabri na roroi xadba culno
09:07 < zipcpi> naku lo blacykabri cu roroi xadba culno
09:08 < zipcpi> Is PA+ROI a sumtcita?
09:08 < Ilmen> It is.
09:08 < zipcpi> Cool
09:09 < gleki> lo blaci kabri na roroi poi'i lo xadba be ke'a cu culno
09:09 < gleki> i lo blaci kabri na roroi poi'i su'e xadba be ke'a cu culno
09:10 < zipcpi> ua
09:11 < zipcpi> io
09:12 < selpahi> za'a lo cabdei cu jai ca pilno zo poi'i fai la gleki .arxokuna
09:14  * nuzba @uitki: Lo Lojbo Nuzba - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lo_Lojbo_Nuzba by Guskant - m17n [http://bit.ly/1R0wCDd]
09:16 < gleki> ie u'i
09:17 < gleki> i lo blaci kabri na roroi se xadba lo culno
09:17 < zipcpi> za'a do po'u la selpa'i cu pilno la'e lo'u ce ki tau jau le'u
09:17 < gleki> i lo blaci kabri na roroi pimuva'e culno
09:18 < zipcpi> ua zo va'e
09:18 < gleki> selpahi: ta'ocu'i la cekitaujaus zo'u ki'u ma do'o na finti lo dunli be zo zo'e
09:19 < gleki> i ua la guskant cu mutce stika le nuzba papri
09:21 < selpahi> io ko catlu lo nu lo jbopre cu cusku ma kau .i no roi cusku zo zo'e
09:22 < selpahi> .i mi zo'u zo zo'u fegli sai
09:22 < selpahi> zo zo'e *
09:22 < selpahi> .i la .guskant. cu zukte ma kau noi la .guskant. ke'a zukte
09:22 < selpahi> jbo:juknyxarju
09:23 < mensi> juknyxarju [< jukni xarju ≈ Jukni* xarju*] = x1 ckaji ro selkai be lo jukni xarju
09:23 < selpahi> en:juknyxarju
09:23 < mensi> juknyxarju [< jukni xarju ≈ Spider pig] = x1 does whatever a spider pig does.
09:23 < selpahi> .i lo ka me la .guskant. cu ka banli
09:24 < gleki> selpahi: ki'u ma fegli i smuni fegli gi'i tarmi clani
09:24 < selpahi> gi'e
09:24 < gleki> uanai
09:24 < gleki> a'u
09:24 < selpahi> xu do zgana su'o nu mi pilno zo zo'e
09:24 < gleki> mi sruma lo nu na pilno ri'a lonu le valsi cu clani
09:24 < selpahi> jo'a pei go'i
09:25 < selpahi> .i xu sko'opydra
09:25 < gleki> mi sruma lo nu na'e pilno ri'a lonu le valsi cu clani
09:25 < gleki> i mi sruma lo nu na pilno pe ri'a lonu le valsi cu clani
09:25 < selpahi> ka'e pagbu lo krinu .i mi na birti .i li'a fadni fa lo nu rivbi tu'a lo clani valsi
09:25 < selpahi> .i ku'i zo zo'e cizra su'a
09:25 < zipcpi> sko'opydra ki'a
09:26 < selpahi> sko'opu zei drani
09:26 < gleki> ie pe'i la tsipf cu pante i seki'u bo na pilno
09:26 < zipcpi> zo sko'opu na se jbovlaste
09:26 < selpahi> ba'a lo nu pa zei slaka valsi na se jalge lo nu mi pilno
09:28 < selpahi> .i zo sko'opu menre lo jbovla poi lo nu lo jbopre cu pilno ke'a cu cafne ku'o gi'e ku'i poi'i ma'a ki'u lo nu nandu fa lo ka skicu bau lo jbobau lo smuni cu nu'o jmina ke'a la jbovlaste
09:36 < zipcpi> (Erm I know what na'i means, but not jo'a)
09:36 < selpahi> ba'o ji ca'o na djuno
09:37 < zipcpi> naje
09:37 < selpahi> zo jo'a dukti zo na'i
09:38 < zipcpi> mi sisku sepi'o la jbovlaste ikui mi na jimpe lo du'u makau te pilno zo jo'a
09:38 < gleki> http://tatoeba.org/por/sentences/show/4203727
09:38 < gleki> .title
09:38 < phenny> gleki: Frase de exemplo (Lojban): ju'o na du zo'e noi do djica- Tatoeba
09:38 < gleki> I'm sure that's not what you want to do.
09:39 < gleki> ju'o na du lo poi'i do djica lo ka zukte ke'a?
09:41 < zipcpi> "Words that begin with semivowels have a mandatory pause if the last word ends in a diphthong that ends with the same letter" xu drani
09:50 < selpahi> "A lojban letter/sound cannot be followed by itself."
09:50 < zipcpi> bu ua?
09:50 < selpahi> That's /buwa/
09:51 < selpahi> ŭ is another phoneme
09:52 < selpahi> It just makes everything so much simpler.
09:54 < rutytar> so lojban "bu" is like the english "butt", not the english "boot"?
09:54 < selpahi> {bu} is like "boo!"
09:55 < selpahi> Except less slanted .u'i
09:55 < rutytar> so then "bu ua" is "boo ooah", right?
09:55 < selpahi> {ua} is "whah"
09:55 < selpahi> "wah"
09:56 < rutytar> yeah, but the english "oo" and "w" are equivalent, aren't they?
09:56 < rutytar> "water" is "oo-ah-ter"
09:56 < selpahi> Only if you're a ventriloquist.
09:56 < ldlework> u'isai
09:57 < demize> water is /ˈwɑtɚ/, boot is /buːt/
09:57 < demize> Though the pronunciation of water varies somewhat.
09:58 < Ilmen> If you try pronouncing "woo", you should be able to hear the difference between the [w] sound and the [u] (oo) sound
09:58 < ldlework> selpahi: have you read any of my ramblings about OpenSim?
09:58 < selpahi> All of them.
09:58 < Ilmen> Both sounds are similar to each other, but [u] is a vowel, while [w] is a consonant
09:58 < Ilmen> @ rutytar
09:59 < rutytar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet_chart_for_English_dialects#Chart "we, queen"
09:59 < rutytar> formatting what
09:59 < rutytar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labio-velar_approximant
09:59 < ldlework> selpahi: pei
10:00 < rutytar> Ilmen: "woo" in english is "(u as in queen)-(u as in bud)-(u as in queen)"
10:00 < rutytar> so i suppose in english "oo" is a diphthong in many cases
10:00 < selpahi> ka'e xamgu .i ku'i lo nu finti lo plixau munje cu nandu ba'a ja sa'e cu se ditcu lo barda .i da'i do ka'e finti lo skina gi'e visygau lo na se slabu lo munje
10:00 < selpahi> gi'e ciksi lo ciste
10:01 < selpahi> .i .ei mi vanci'a si vancitka si vancycti si citka lo vancysanmi
10:01 < Ilmen> co'o vancika
10:02 < rutytar> no, it's not u as in bud, now that i think about it
10:03 < rutytar> the vowel in "wood"
10:04 < Ilmen> "wood" is /wʊd/, with a short loose oo sound
10:04 < Ilmen> if I'm not mistaken
10:05 < rutytar> "food", then, maybe
10:05 < ldlework> definitely foo
10:05 < ldlework> d
10:05 < rutytar> is there a table in english words in IPA?
10:06 < Ilmen> "food" is /fuːd/  (long oo)
10:06 < rutytar> so "woo" in /wuːw/, isn't it?
10:06 < rutytar> or /wuː/?
10:06 < Ilmen> I don't really know, I'm not a native English speaker
10:07 < Ilmen> English's spelling is pretty opaque, especially for vowel sounds
10:08 < rutytar> i don't understand how /w/ isn't a vowel in principle
10:08 < Ilmen> Technically, [w] is a semi-vowel, so something half-way between a vowel and a consonant
10:10 < demize> rutytar: I'd say closer to /wuː/, but as with all English pronunciations, it could vary a bit.
10:11 < zipcpi> selpahi: Oh, so we consider "bau" to end in a semivowel too?
10:11 < Ilmen> Basically, it's pronounced much like [u] but with additionally the back of the tongue being raised toward the soft palate
10:11 < Ilmen> @ rutytar
10:11 < Ilmen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labio-velar_approximant
10:11 < zipcpi> I would need to rewrite quite a lot then uinai
10:12 < Ilmen> I pronounce "bau" as [bau] or [baʊ]
10:12 < Ilmen> and not as [baw]
10:13 < zipcpi> I don't know how to tell which one I use :p
10:13 < rutytar> so isn't it more correct to pronounce lojban "ua" as /uːɑː/ than /wɑː/?
10:13 < zipcpi> No it's the latter
10:13 < zipcpi> The former is u,ua, which breaks to u ua
10:14 < zipcpi> It's... kinda confusing... it's the downside to using the same letter for vowels and semivowels
10:14 < ldlework> selpahi: ki'e .i ku'i ma jinvi va'o lo nu je'u cumki
10:14 < ldlework> selpahi: ki'e .i ku'i jinvi ma* va'o lo nu je'u cumki
10:15 < Ilmen> Technically, "uu" could be pronounced as [uu] (officially Lojban doesn't have a [w]/[u] distinction), but then only the length of the [u] could tell apart ".u" from ".uu"
10:15 < Ilmen> so it actual usage "uu" is pronounced [wu]
10:15 < Ilmen> so that we don't have to rely on the vowel length
10:15 < rutytar> Ilmen: isn't that going against lojban's design principles?
10:15 < ldlework> Any uV starts with the [w] sound
10:15 < ldlework> Any iV starts with the [y]es sound
10:16 < ldlework> etc
10:16 < Ilmen> Oficially Lojban has no vowel length distinction, so it's weird that "u" and "uu" would be two different words
10:16 < zipcpi> Well semivowel resolution is always completely predictable
10:16 < rutytar> that's what i was thinking the first time i encountered it
10:17 < rutytar> i figured "uu" was just twice as long as "u"
10:17 < Ilmen> You can consider [w] an allophone of "u" that is pronounced instead of [u] only when the "u" letter is followed by another vowel
10:17 < Ilmen> for avoiding relying on vowel lenght
10:18 < ldlework> just like i is pronounced like the "y" in yello when its followed by another fowel
10:18 < ldlework> vowel*
10:18 < rutytar> but then you have homophones, which i thought lojban was made to avoid
10:18 < ldlework> And "e" turns into the "a" in Amy
10:19 < ldlework> "a" turns into the "o" of onomatopoeia
10:19 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf
10:19 < ldlework> ^
10:20 < ldlework> most useful thing ever
10:20 < rutytar> ldlework: in my accent the a in Amy is /ɛiː/
10:20 < gleki> probably this app needs to be translated to Lojban
10:20 < Ilmen> In Lojban, there are one letter for each phoneme, but each phoneme may have more than one allophonic realisation
10:20 < ldlework> rutytar: and that's how you should pronounce ei
10:20 < ldlework> kei is "kay" without the rounding at the end
10:20 < Ilmen> for example, the letter/phoneme "o" can be realized as [o], or as [ɔ]
10:21 < Ilmen> both [o] and [ɔ] are allophones (available realisations) of the "o" phoneme/letter
10:21 < ldlework> I used to pronounced "kei" and "kie" as in "pie"
10:21 < ldlework> but that's "ai"
10:21 < rutytar> Ilmen: but in the case of 'u' vs 'uu', the doubly long "u" isn't available
10:22 < rutytar> since lojban supposedly doesn't care about vowel length
10:23 < rutytar> re: http://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf doesn't the "r" have an unnecessary vowel?
10:23 < Ilmen> For a sound to be considered as a phoneme, there need to be at least one pair of words which is only distinguished by this sound distinction
10:23 < ldlework> what?
10:24 < gleki> i wish someone could rewrite this app into html5
10:24 < gleki> because Flash is ...
10:24 < ldlework> rutytar: oh because the 'uh' in 'ruh'?
10:24 < rutytar> ldlework: yes
10:24 < zipcpi> Ilmen No I consider it two different phonemes even though there isn't a minimal pair
10:25 < ldlework> rutytar: probably just an oversight. that's how you say the letter 'r' but not the sound.
10:25 < zipcpi> Why? Well, take the pathological cmevla iiiiin vs iiiiiin
10:25 < Ilmen> So, as long there doesn't exist a word distinction like "uu" vs "wu", then "w" and "u" can be considered as a single phoneme
10:25 < ldlework> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN
10:25 < Ilmen> if I'm not mistaken
10:25 < zipcpi> The first one brakes to .i,ii,iin.
10:25 < zipcpi> The second one breaks to .ii,ii,iin.
10:26 < zipcpi> Whether you begin with "ee" or "yee" becomes important
10:26 < zipcpi> Therefore they are two different phonemes
10:27 < Ilmen> je'e pei la rutytar
10:27 < gleki> Anyone can find an html5 app showing pronunciation of some language? i will adapt it to lojban
10:27 < ldlework> gleki: just decompile the flash thing to get the sounds
10:28 < Ilmen> For emphasizing that a "u" letter is realized as [w] (which is theoretically allophonic to [u]), it's sometimes written «ŭ», although it's nothing mandatory
10:28 < Ilmen> @ rutytar
10:29 < gleki> ldlework: my question is about the actual html template from which i can start. not about .mp3
10:29 < rutytar> Ilmen: so you're saying any spoken phoneme only maps to a single lojban letter
10:29 < zipcpi> Actually I disagree... see my argument
10:29 < ldlework> gleki: you're telling me you don't know html?
10:29 < Ilmen> rutytar: yeah, but a phoneme may have several realization depending on the context
10:29 < zipcpi> That it's possible to have two different phonemes even if there isn't a minimal pair
10:30 < rutytar> Ilmen: could you elaborate on what you mean by realization?
10:30 < gleki> ldlework: im telling im too lazy to start  from scratch. see those tabs and buttons? hard to quickly do that. better to start from some template
10:30 < zipcpi> As in how you actually pronounce it
10:30 < Ilmen> zipcpi: possibly, I don't know the exact details on how to know when a sound is a phoneme or not; I wouldn't be opposed to [w] being declared a separate phoneme in Lojban, if there are good bases for this
10:31 < zipcpi> Kinda like how Lojban n is normally /n/ but can be pronounced /ŋ/ before k, g, and x
10:31 < rutytar> Ilmen: the only place where the "u" "uu" distinction comes up is in attitudinals which must be made of vowels anyway, right?
10:31 < rutytar> plus there's "i" "ii", which would still come up
10:32 < zipcpi> Not true, some of the "experimental" attitudinals have consonants
10:32 < zipcpi> Like bu'a'a
10:32 < zipcpi> Also there is the word crenzuue (practice)
10:33 < zipcpi> Which is pronounced cren,zu,ŭe
10:33 < zipcpi> Stress on zu
10:33 < rutytar> zipcpi: how is that derived?
10:33 < zipcpi> Shortening of "crezenzu'e"
10:33 < zipcpi> certu zenba zukte
10:34 < rutytar> i didn't think shortening like that was allowed at all
10:34 < Ilmen> rutytar: Let's take an example. In Spanish, the letter "b" stands for the [b] phoneme; however this phoneme is either realised as [b] or as [β], depending on the context
10:34 < Ilmen> So, in Spanish, [b] and [β] are two allophones of the phoneme /b/
10:34 < rutytar> Ilmen: but when hearing [b] or [β], are you always confident that it's written as "b"?
10:35 < Ilmen> No, in spanish the phoneme /b/ may be written "b" or "v", it's unpredictable
10:35 < Ilmen> v and b are pronounced the same way
10:35 < Ilmen> both stand for the /b/ phoneme
10:35 < rutytar> so isn't that something we want to avoid?
10:37 < rutytar> http://lojban.github.io/cll/3/1/ "Lojban is designed so that any properly spoken Lojban utterance can be uniquely transcribed in writing, and any properly written Lojban can be spoken so as to be uniquely reproduced by another person." this is what i'm going on here
10:37 < Ilmen> Sure, in Lojban there is exactly one letter for each phoneme
10:37 < rutytar> so is there "exactly" one phoneme for any written sentence?
10:38 < zipcpi> Yeah we don't have that in Lojban. What we do have is pathological possibilities where one has to backtrack to figure out whether to begin a word with "ee" or "yee"
10:38 < Ilmen> So there isn't the Spanish problem of now knowing whether the /b/ phoneme should be written "b" or "v", for example
10:38 < rutytar> do you *have* to say "uu" as /wuː/? and you *can't* say it as a doubly long /uː/?
10:38 < zipcpi> Yes
10:38 < zipcpi> Vowel length is not phonemic in Lojban
10:39 < rutytar> is there any written sentence which has multiple phonetic interpretations?
10:39 < zipcpi> No
10:39 < rutytar> then i don't think it's a problem
10:39 < zipcpi> Even iiiiin has a single phonetic interpretation
10:39 < zipcpi> It is i,ii,iin
10:39 < Ilmen> Incidentally, I've heard Spanish people often write "b" instead of "v" or the other way around, because this written distinction doesn't exist in spoken speech
10:39 < zipcpi> Vs. iiiiiin, which is ii,ii,iin
10:40 < rutytar> zipcpi: i as in english "bid", and ii as in english "beed"?
10:40 < Ilmen> I mean, I've heard it's a common writting mistake
10:40 < zipcpi> No ii as in yee
10:40 < zipcpi> So i,ii,iin = ee-yee-yeen
10:41 < zipcpi> Of course, like I said, this is pathological
10:41 < zipcpi> If someone really adopts it as their cmevla, please smack him for me
10:41 < zipcpi> ki'esai zo'o
10:41 < rutytar> what is "yee" in IPA?
10:41 < zipcpi> [ji]
10:42 < rutytar> ah
10:42 < zipcpi> [i.ji.jin]
10:42 < iiiiin> coi
10:42 < zipcpi> oi
10:42 < iiiiin> .oi zei coi
10:43 < rutytar> zipcpi: have you articulated this concept yourself or is it written down somewhere?
10:43 < Ilmen> rutytar: the w/u distinction is very similar to the j/i distinction
10:43 < zipcpi> oi sai oi'o sai di'ai nai sai ki'ai mabla
10:44 < Ilmen> woo/yee
10:44 < Ilmen> wu/ji
10:44 < zipcpi> I'm hoping to write it down... but there might be a document elsewhere that does so
10:44 < rutytar> i think at this point i'm in agreement that they satisfy the rule of identity
10:44 < rutytar> are there equivalents for a, e and o?
10:45 < Ilmen> No, only for the close vowels [i], [u] and [y]
10:45 < rutytar> what would it be for [y]?
10:45 < Ilmen> ([y] exists neither in English nor Lojban, so you can disregard this one)
10:46 < rutytar> i'a
10:46 < Ilmen> The semivowel equivalent of [y] is [ɥ]
10:46 < Ilmen> it exists in French
10:46 < zipcpi> And Chinese
10:46 < Ilmen> yeah
10:47 < rutytar> it seems like github would be a much better platform for this stuff than a wiki with user pages
10:47 < gleki> zipcpi: dont you know anyone who could translate "How to create simple phrases in Lojban" slides into Chinese or Malay? :)
10:48 < gleki> rutytar: sure, but think of non-geeks. Thus some readable gh-pages might be nicer
10:48 < zipcpi> I don't know anyone IRL who studies Lojban
10:48 < zipcpi> Although I might be able to make some simple phrases in Chinese and Malay with some effort
10:49 < rutytar> http://lojban.github.io/cll/3/4/ i totally didn't notice, but this page does go over ii and uu
10:49 < gleki> zipcpi: you dont speak them?
10:49 < zipcpi> I do but I'm /very/ rusty
10:49 < gleki> github.io <-- .io
10:49 < rutytar> however it doesn't specify how i has precedence over ii in "iii"
10:49 < zipcpi> You have to work backwards
10:50 < zipcpi> Like take "iiin" for example
10:50 < zipcpi> It breaks into i,iin
10:50 < zipcpi> If you attempt to break it ii,in it just doesn't work
10:51 < zipcpi> yee - een which would be a phonemic long vowel
10:51 < rutytar> what about "iiiin"?
10:51 < rutytar> "yee - yeen?"
10:52 < zipcpi> Yep.
10:52 < rutytar> no, i suppose that does work for any number if [i]
10:52 < rutytar> or…
10:52 < rutytar> what's the convention with writing lojban letters in english text? {i}? and [i] refers to the IPA phoneme?
10:53 < zipcpi> gleki: I'm better at understanding Chinese or Malay spoken to me than attempting to construct Chinese or Malay sentences
10:53 < zipcpi> Actually there is no fixed convention to that unfortunately
10:54 < zipcpi> Though yeah I do see curly braces a lot
10:55 < rutytar> well thats, cool, it makes sense to me
10:56 < zipcpi> Perhaps it is time I exercised my Chinese and Malay muscles, but I don't know if they'd come up all weird
10:57 < gleki> {i} is a Lojban word. For IPA there is no universal onvention.
10:57 < gleki> *convention
10:57 < rutytar> gleki: what about lojban letters?
10:57 < tctstyjdzdjv> There's always the option of replacing your own grammaticality judgement with obsessive googling
10:57 < gleki> Although in the wiki bold text in non-Lojban text always denotes Lojban words.
10:58 < zipcpi> exp: <tctstyjdzdjv>
10:58 < mensi> (CU [tctstyjdzdjv VAU])
10:58 < gleki> rutytar: for letters I again dont see any stable convention. In my course I used purple color for vowels and bold text for consonants. But thatwas ad hoc.
10:59 < gleki> Looks like I can't find any html apps with pronunciation charts :/
11:01 < zipcpi> Maybe I'd see if there are some Chinese or Malay courses and attempt to translate them to Lojban
11:01 < zipcpi> Copyright might be an issue though
11:03 < gleki> zipcpi: i just mean if you have free time you may translate this to languages that you are familiar with https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Yrxt9gAtqA_oSDD76Toq8VLSZjjOxJ5rkKsxFs3Cw8E&authuser=0
11:04 < gleki> we already have it in French, Russian, Portuguese.
11:04 < zipcpi> Hmm...
11:04 < zipcpi> Yeah the problem is that I forgot much of the idiomatic phrase construction of things
11:05 < zipcpi> So it won't be natural
11:05 < tctstyjdzdjv_> gleki: ta'o ma judri lo sfoneme snapi'o poi se .akcento lo merko
11:05 < tctstyjdzdjv_> .i je xu le snapi'o cu me la flaci ku jai se jicmu
11:05 < zipcpi> Like... what little Chinese do I speak is sometimes /very/ malglixlu
11:06 < gleki> tctstyjdzdjv: uanai i mi nu'o tolcri lo simsa
11:07 < gleki> tctstyjdzdjv: mi tolcri fe po'o lo flaci proga noi li'a mabla
11:07 < zipcpi> It's like "I am talking to you about a movie" -> "wo xian zai jiang gei ni?... no that can't be right"
11:07 < tctstyjdzdjv> ja'o ja'a flaci .i ie mabla
11:07 < zipcpi> It's a curse... I really need to figure out how to fix it
11:07 < tctstyjdzdjv> .i je lo .akcento ku ji'a cu pe'i na melbi
11:08 < gleki> tctstyjdzdjv: mi pu troci lo ka galfi fi HTML i ku'i fliba
11:08 < zipcpi> I especially won't know how to translate "progressive tense" into Chinese :p
11:09 < tctstyjdzdjv> .i .ai ca lo bavla'i nu cumki cu zbasu .i na djuno lo du'u ca ma kau cu cumki vau ku'i
11:09 < gleki> i lo nu si'unai finti lo proga cu jai ri'a tatpi
11:09 < tctstyjdzdjv> ku'i se grute se ju jalge lo banli ne mu'u la mensi
11:09 < tctstyjdzdjv> sa'ai se jalge le'ai
11:11 < gleki> zipcpi: isn't that the easiest part? http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lo_vensa_brife although note that according to La Bangu policy you should adapt Lojban to natlangs, not vice versa. These slides are for English speakers. Adapting to French, Portuguese, Russian was clearly smooth. But for Chinese it may not be so. Maybe just teach other tenses instead of {ca'o}.
11:11 < zipcpi> Oh
11:12 < gleki> Although im not sure what is "zhe/zai". Probably {ze'a/ca'o} or {ze'a/co'inai}
11:12 < gleki> At least "le" is {co'i} in many cases for sure.
11:12 < zipcpi> It's just I need to figure out how to construct phrases naturally again. Like I said, I'm better at understanding than constructing
11:13 < zipcpi> "aspect particle indicating action in progress"
11:14 < zipcpi> Which makes me think ca'o
11:15 < zipcpi> Malay /sedang/
11:16 < zipcpi> Yeah... very rusty T.T
11:18  * nuzba @uitki: nuzba/en - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/nuzba/en by Guskant - tinbe [[Talk:Lo Lojbo Nuzba|tu'a la gleki]] [http://bit.ly/1FxKUtd]
11:19 < gleki> ue tinbe
11:19 < gleki> i la'a co'a lojbo cmene le papri
11:20 < zipcpi> Actually it's not the ca'o part that I got stuck on. It is the tavla part
11:20 < zipcpi> I forgot how to naturally say "talk to someone about something" in Chinese. Sure I could hack out a malglixlu phrase but
11:22 < zipcpi> Wo gen ni tan tan dian ying
11:23 < zipcpi> Great now I need someone to check that for me
11:24 < zipcpi> But yeah might not be the best phrase to start with. If I am right then Wo gen ni -> mi joi do
11:24 < zipcpi> Which doesn't quite work in Lojban...
11:29 < zipcpi> Gah yeah I really should take some remedial Rosetta Stone courses or something
11:31 < zipcpi> ei mi cliva co'o
11:52 < selpahi> la .rosetas. cu mabla mabla
11:53 < selpahi> .i lo nu mergu'e misnyrai na banzu lo nu xamgu tutci
11:56 < selpahi> .i kargu sai ji'a .i zoi gy. #1 language-learning software .gy zo'u ko na bebna
12:15 < ldlework> la kalri sezmlugau ku joi su'o pendo cu traji
12:16 < ldlework> .i va'i nu jinru poi pukfri
12:38 < akmnlrse> gleki: zbasu se ju'oi http://chins.qc.to/voksna.html se pi'o lo vreji pe la uitkymledja ge'u noi ku'i su'o so'o ke'a na jai mansa
12:39 < ldlework> coi akmnlrse
12:39 < akmnlrse> coi cadnugu
12:40 < ldlework> mi'e cadgu'a
12:40 < akmnlrse> je'e
12:40 < ldlework> do mo
12:41 < akmnlrse> .i lo jaspu cu tolpo'u .i .a'o ba zi zifre lo ka ze'a lo na'e cmalu cu pilno
12:42 < ldlework> You hope for the freedom of big things to use?
12:43 < akmnlrse> Hope that I can soon use it for a non-short time
12:43 < ldlework> ah
12:44 < ldlework> That's okay. I think I've almost some freetime to work on the terrain and start setting stuff up
12:44 < akmnlrse> xamgu
12:45 < ldlework> I hope to get something to make selpahi me lo krici
12:45 < akmnlrse> .i ta'e ku ti'u ma lo drata cu zvati lo munje
12:46 < ldlework> lo drata poi ma
12:46 < ldlework> mo ma ma ma ma ma ma
12:46 < akmnlrse> me lo krici vau xu .i ja'o do xa'o mutce co birti tu'a lo nu plixau
12:46 < akmnlrse> .i lo drata poi vitke
12:46 < ldlework> u'i
12:46 < akmnlrse> .i de'a jundi fa mi .i xruti za lo mentu be li ji'i 10
12:47 < ldlework> je'e
12:48 < ldlework> za'u vitke cu zvati va'o lo nu la jbogu'e cu jinsa je culno lo dacti
12:59 < akmnlrse> gu'e jinsa gi culno lo dacti .i makfa
12:59 < akmnlrse> .u'u
12:59 < selpahi> ki'e do noi do je nai mi piksku zo'o
13:00 < selpahi> (to do po'u ke'a toi)
13:00 < akmnlrse> lo javni pe la mrufi cu coinsa
13:01 < ldlework> Why can't something be clean and full of objects?
13:02 < selpahi> clean of objects and full of objects
13:02 < ldlework> ohhh
13:02 < ldlework> How do I demark the bridi tail there?
13:02 < akmnlrse> je cu
13:02 < ldlework> jecu
13:02 < ldlework> ah
13:02 < ldlework> thanks
13:03 < akmnlrse> mi ji'a pu .optimisti dukse co troci co pilno la .jacus.
13:03 < selpahi> la .jecus. cu prami do
13:04 < akmnlrse> le .i .ei zo le co'a cmavrui
13:04 < selpahi> .i ma smuni lo du'u do .optimisti dukse .i ma fasnu (to .i ma terta'a toi)
13:05 < akmnlrse> srera lo simsa ki'u tu'a pa lo mupli ne lo blogysle
13:06 < selpahi> ma .itca lo mupli
13:06 < selpahi> doi .eskratci
13:07 < selpahi> .i xu na ku mi ciksi lo su'u zo cu jai sarcu
13:07 < akmnlrse> ju'o ciksi .i mi tcidu ca lo nu mi za'o nintadni ba'e mutce
13:07 < selpahi> .i zo'o xu do tavla fi lo blogysle pe la .loglan.
13:08 < selpahi> ia nai do nintadni ca da
13:08 < akmnlrse> y ko co'e
13:08 < selpahi> .i do du ba'e ma !? .i tolcanci fau lo nu jbocre
13:09 < akmnlrse> mi .u'anmo lo nu la gleki za'u ci roi retsku lo se du'u mi du ma kau
13:09 < akmnlrse> s/za'u/su'o/
13:10 < akmnlrse> .i ku'i ba'o co'a nandu fa lo ka soi krefu cu tolcanci
13:10 < ldlework> where has selckiku gone?
13:10 < ldlework> haven't seen them around.
13:10 < akmnlrse> ca .irci la jbosnu
13:10 < ldlework> I wonder what they would think about opensim
13:11 < selpahi> .e'u pa mai facki lo du'u xu kau kanro keije lo du'u ma kau pu se lifri
13:11 < akmnlrse> na djuno .i .e'e slabygau
13:11 < selpahi> .i ku'i ie ko jungau
13:11 < akmnlrse> .i ie .i cizra fa ji'a lo nu irci je na ku'i spuda
13:12 < selpahi> do'a nai lakne fa lo nu na morsi
13:12 < akmnlrse> .i .a'o lo mabla se lifri na srana lo ma'a cecmu
13:12 < selpahi> .i ku'i .a'o la ckiku cu kanro
13:12 < akmnlrse> .a'o
13:12 < akmnlrse> s/srana/se rinka/ sa'e
13:13 < selpahi> lo cecmu zo'u la selckiku cu xusra so'i jetnu .i ku'i mi mrilu fi la selckiku gi'e cpedu lo ka jungau mi lo du'u mo kau
13:13 < selpahi> .i ku'i na spuda
13:13 < selpahi> .i ku'i lo nu troci cu .a'o se zgana sy.
13:14 < Regex> I've been trying to use the dictionary http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/lookup to see if I can make sense of random posts in this conversation, but there are a few that don't exist such as 'eskratci'
13:14 < selpahi> .i lo cecmu na djugri
13:14 < akmnlrse> za'a
13:15 < Zyxl> Have you tried using regular expressions?
13:15 < selpahi> eskratci was a very bad pun on Itchy and Scratchy
13:15 < Regex> Ah yes puns are well above me at the moment
13:15 < ldlework> Regex: how long have you been tadni'ing
13:15 < akmnlrse> blogysle -> blog post, coinsa -> rinsa fi tu'a zo coi
13:16 < Zyxl> Lojban allows you to construct new words which you won't find anyway.
13:16 < Regex> ldlework: Literally decided to look into lojban yesterday
13:16 < ldlework> Regex: that's awesome
13:16 < selpahi> sapsa -> rinsa fi tu'a zoi gy. sup .gy
13:16 < selpahi> zo'o !
13:16 < ldlework> Regex: I usually offer my 15 minute introduction to new people. Interested?
13:16 < ldlework> video*
13:17 < Regex> ldlework: Yeah I vaguely recall seeing the XKCD about it a long time ago, and was like 'that is silly' but now years later I'm regreting not doing so
13:17 < Regex> ldlework: Sure! Intros are great
13:17 < ldlework> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjSTUK3hFI
13:17 < selpahi> .e'e sei talsa ko finti lo ba'e drani xe fanva pe XKCD191
13:17 < Regex> ldlework: Thank you.
13:18 < akmnlrse> .ai nai mi za'u re'u catlu lo xe fanva
13:18 < ldlework> Regex: if you'd like some further explanations starting from the end of that video just hit me up
13:18 < akmnlrse> .i ri'igni
13:18 < ldlework> I can teach lojban pretty fast (the core, at least)
13:18 < Regex> ldlework: I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately school will get in the way for at least another three or so weeks
13:19 < ldlework> Regex: fi'i
13:19 < Regex> (Oh the irony of school preventing me from learning!)
13:20 < Zyxl> Idlework: Why haven't you offered to teach me? uinai :(
13:21 < Ilmen> coi
13:22 < Zyxl> coi
13:22 < akmnlrse> coi
13:22 < selpahi> coi
13:22 < Ilmen> jundi sormei
13:25 < akmnlrse> tavla sotmei
13:25 < Ilmen> "Is the color green green?" .u'i
13:25 < selpahi> la jbogu'e zo'u stuzi lo nu lo prenu vo mei cu so'i mei
13:27 < Ilmen> la .xorxes. cu brireisku lo ka jei lo crinyzilska cu crino
13:28 < Ilmen> .i mi zo'u mi na'e birti lo du'u ja'a crino
13:29 < Regex> oh wow I love this whole bridi idea
13:29 < Zyxl> je'e
13:29 < selpahi> ka'e go'i .i ka'e na go'i .i ku'i lo du'u da'i crino na nibli lo du'u zo crino jai banzu
13:30 < selpahi> .i ji'a juxre bangu va'o
13:32 < selpahi> .i la  .xorxes. cu jinvi lo du'u lo se skari cu dacti
13:32 < Ilmen> pe'i pei doi xy ro da zo'u go da skari gi da se skari
13:32 < selpahi> .i mu'a lo bitmu cu skari lo plise
13:32 < Ilmen> zo'o
13:32 < Ilmen> .u'e
13:33 < Ilmen> mi da'i pilno zo skadu'i
13:33 < selpahi> go'i ra'o
13:33 < akmnlrse> lo zo skapareci valsi cu jai .anci lo simsa
13:34 < akmnlrse> be tu'a lo plise
13:35 < selpahi> pe'i xamgu da'i fa lo nu zo skari zo'u tersumei li pa
13:35 < selpahi> .i lo pa moi cu fanza
13:35 < Ilmen> ŭe ru'e ŭa nai
13:35 < selpahi> .i .au lu lo xunska cu melbi skari li'u
13:36 < Ilmen> xu da'i co'e lo si'o zilska
13:36 < selpahi> .i da'i .i'a co'e li re .i lo plise cu ba'e se skari lo cizra
13:36 < selpahi> go'e
13:36 < selpahi> .i ku'i ma ka zilska
13:36 < selpahi> .i lo jbobau na kakne
13:36 < selpahi> .i ma ka zilmitre
13:36 < Ilmen> .i ta'o va'i lo nu lo si'o me'oi green cu co'e lu lo ka crino zo'u lo so'u mei cu frica lu ti skari lo ka crino li'u lu ti ckaji lo ka crino li'u
13:36 < Ilmen> s/va'i/va'o
13:37 < Ilmen> .i lo si'o skari cu da'i na'e plixautce
13:37 < selpahi> ba'e pe'i na mapti
13:37 < selpahi> .i zo crino srana lo dacti poi skari da
13:37 < selpahi> ^mupli lo juxre co'e
13:38 < selpahi> .i lo sucta crinyska na srana su'o dacti .i sucta
13:39 < selpahi> .i lo nu su'o dacti poi skari lo crinyska cu zasti na sarcu lo nu mi nelci mu'a lo crinyska
13:39 < selpahi> .i ji'a lu mi nelci lo crino li'u .oi
13:39 < selpahi> .i mi xebni ro crino .i ku'i lo crinyska mi melbi
13:39 < selpahi> sei mupli
13:40 < Ilmen> .i pe'i pei lo zilska ka'e se viska .i mu'a lo ka crino na ka'e se viska li'a
13:41 < selpahi> na birti lo du'u xu kau pijyske preti
13:41 < Ilmen> .i lu ko'a viska lo crino li'u na nibli lo du'u ko'a sanji lo du'u lo se viska cu crino kei ji'a
13:41 < Ilmen> .i mu'a va'o lo nu viska lo tarmi bu'u lo manku
13:42 < Ilmen> .i ku'i la'a lu ko'a viska lo du'u da zvati gi'e crino li'u co'e
13:42 < akmnlrse> xu lo ka skaricnino cu klesi sa'e nai lo ka gusni
13:43 < akmnlrse> sei troci co va'i zei cusku
13:43 < Ilmen> sa'u lo menli sidbo cu culno lo sucta mutce .i so'o da na nelci lo si'o zilcmi kei ki'u lo nu sucta .i ku'i mu'a lo namcu ku ji'a sucta mutce
13:43 < mensi> mi na nelci
13:43 < selpahi> je'e datyvlasku troci
13:44 < Ilmen> .i naku ka'e ganse ja pensu lo namcu
13:44 < Ilmen> *pencu
13:44 < akmnlrse> na ... ki'u
13:44 < Ilmen> .u'u
13:44 < Ilmen> mabla fa lo sumtcita .ie .i nitcu lo sko'opu zifma'o
13:45 < selpahi> nitcu lo ka ponjo staile tavla
13:45 < Ilmen> .i lu lo se lidne sumtcita cu sko'opu zifre sei ko sanji li'u
13:45 < Ilmen> s/se/Ø
13:46 < akmnlrse> zo zi'e
13:46 < Ilmen> .u'i
13:46 < Ilmen> naku ki'u zi'e lo nu co'e
13:46 < akmnlrse> ie doi co'a sumtcita nelci
13:47 < selpahi> lo sumtcita na je lo nu se tcaci tu'a lo frica sko'opu rarbau cu nabmi
13:47 < selpahi> .i ko mulno lo ka lojbo
13:47 < selpahi> .i ro nabmi cu canci
13:48 < Ilmen> ju'o mi na nafsku lo du'u mi pu srera .i ku'i lo simsa zifma'o ka'e plixau
13:48 < selpahi> .i lo prenu ta'e cusku lu lo jbobau zo'u lo valsi porsi cu jai se zifre li'u .i ku'i na jetnu
13:49 < selpahi> .i na zifre .i lo nu krici cu rinka lo nu co'a se tcaci lo naldra
13:49 < selpahi> .i lo si'o sko'opu cu risna lo jbobau
13:49 < selpahi> .i ro drata pagbu cu sruri gi'e tinbe
13:50 < selpahi> .i naku lo drata rango va'o lo nu lo risna na .akti cu ka'e gunka
13:51 < selpahi> .i ji'a na ku lo stedu cu cnita lo jamfu
13:51 < selpahi> (to ju'i nai .asnycrepre toi)
13:51 < selpahi> .i ma valsi lo ka monlogo zo'o
13:51 < akmnlrse> li'a lo simsa be zo soi ja zo zi'e da'i na vlipa ro se vlipa be lo nu drani setca lo se sko'opu .i na bi'ai nibli lo du'u .ei vimcu zo soi
13:53 < akmnlrse> ma valsi lo se valsi .i di'e noi mi ca'o fanva lo dei bangu ba'e na ka'e se fanva fi le bangu
13:53 < selpahi> io soi le .ombre de la mu'erte
13:53 < Ilmen> ja'a cumki fa lo nu pilno lo jbobau fau lo nu sko'opu to'e .implisiti .i tadji fa lo nu na pilno lo tormau no'u mu'a zo da jo'u zo ki'u gi'e ku'i pilno lo mulno ke bridi selpau bridi .i ku'i li'a jalge fa lo nu lo jufra cu brabrabra co simsa tau lo .lald.entik. noi lo nu jufra bacru cu se djitcu lo djedi su'o mei
13:53 < Ilmen> zo'o
13:53 < akmnlrse> s/fanva lo/fanva fi lo/
13:54 < Ilmen> s/djitcu/ditcu
13:54 < Ilmen> .u'i
13:55 < selpahi> xu lo jufra pe zo di'e ba se visygau
13:56 < Ilmen> .a'a
13:56 < akmnlrse> na ku .i mi sitselskusku po'o
13:56 < akmnlrse> (to sitna no da ku'i toi)
13:56 < Ilmen> ja'o ba ze'e nonselju'o
13:57 < selpahi> ro da zo'u da ba ze'e nonselju'o
13:57 < selpahi> .i sa'e
13:57 < selpahi> .y
13:57 < selpahi> (to jetnu .i ku'i mi ca'o pensi lo simsa ku ji'a toi)
13:59 < selpahi> ju'i nai .i srana lo du'u lu ze'e ba li'u tsalymau .i na ku ro da zo'u da ze'e ba nonselju'o .i ku'i ja'a ku ro da zo'u da ba ze'e nonselju'o
13:59 < selpahi> .i lo drata mupli cu voi mi fliba lo ka pensi ke'a
14:00 < akmnlrse> ba ze'e na'e bo lo ro balvi vau va'i pei
14:01 < akmnlrse> .i mi za'o na ba'o cilre lo du'u mo kau
14:02 < selpahi> sa'u lo du'u ba broda na voi su'o da zo'u lo nu broda cu fasnu ba za da .i ka'e cabda'o lo cabna
14:02 < selpahi> za'a pi mu lo jufra cu na se cusku mi
14:02 < selpahi> .u'i
14:03 < selpahi> .i .ei mi ciski fi lo drata
14:03 < selpahi> .i zenba zei sa'u
14:03 < akmnlrse> (to mi na snada co glorka toi)
14:03 < akmnlrse> si si co glo'orka toi)
14:03 < selpahi> je'e lo coglorka
14:04 < akmnlrse> .ei mi na sisti lo ka senva lo ka gasnu lo ciprslinku'i
14:04 < selpahi> .i tatpi zei sa'u tu'a zo ba dunli tu'a lu ca su'o balvi li'u
14:04 < Ilmen> glorokuna mo
14:05 < akmnlrse> ua
14:05 < Ilmen> ba'a nai ru'e zo glorokuna cu se finti la selckiku .i ku'i mi fliba lo ka smuni morji
14:06 < akmnlrse> Ilmen: dei noi zgubli'iki cu se pagbu za'u na'e sklarki flu'utspa .i ku'i lo su'a zei plagadispi ka'e se glo'orka se pi'o lo konlteksto
14:06 < selpahi> ju'o cu'i frilymau fa gajo'u lu no roi pu li'u gi lu pu no roi li'u
14:07 < Ilmen> je'e flu'utspa
14:07 < akmnlrse> selpahi: simlu lo ka smisi'u fa tu'a zo roi lu'u jo'u tu'a zo ze'e
14:08 < selpahi> ja'a smisi'u .i .i'a ko lu ci roi
14:08 < selpahi> .i ja ko lu ze'i
14:08 < selpahi> .oi li'u li'u
14:09 < akmnlrse> ua nai .i xu klamburi nu troci
14:09 < selpahi> na ku
14:10 < selpahi> .i troci no da poi na ka cusku lo sampu
14:10 < selpahi> .i banli fliba sai
14:10 < selpahi> .i ke'u ko karbi lu pu ze'i li'u lu ze'i pu li'u
14:10 < selpahi> .i ja ko go'i lu pu ci roi li'u lu ci roi pu li'u
14:10 < selpahi> .i ko karbi ro da ro de
14:11 < selpahi> .i ko karbi lo kabri lo kagni
14:13 < akmnlrse> ze'i pu -> lo sumji sa'e nai be lo ro purci fasnu poi co'e cu ditycma ?
14:14 < selpahi> lo temci be lo cabna bei lo nu co'a broda cu ditycma
14:15 < selpahi> be fi bei fe
14:15 < selpahi> .i ze'i jetnu fa lo du'u ca su'o da poi purci lo cabna cu broda
14:15 < selpahi> .i lo cabna cu muvdu
14:16 < selpahi> #tàtpinucìksi
14:16 < selpahi> .i ko vimcu zo ca
14:17 < selpahi> .i ko na go'i
14:17 < selpahi> .i ze'i fasnu fa lo nu ca su'o purci cu broda
14:17 < akmnlrse> .i je zo broda zo'u lu nu broda li'u vau xu
14:17 < selpahi> .i xu drani
14:17 < selpahi> ze'i pu broda
14:17 < akmnlrse> .i simlu lo ka ge se nibli gi nonselsmu
14:18 < akmnlrse> .i ja'o la'a ga na me lo jai se djica gi mi za'o na plipe co jimpe be co'a
14:18 < selpahi> .i lu ze'i pu li'u zo'u ba'e lamji lo cabna .i lu pu ze'i li'u zo'u na sai nibli
14:20 < akmnlrse> ja'o panra zo ze'e .i simlu fi mi fe lo ka jai se sarcu su'o javni poi na se nibli lo fadni ke sko'opu javni .i xu na co'e
14:20 < selpahi> .i pu za lo nanca be li mu mi ze'i .y zvati lo tce'exo sei mupli .i va'i mi pu ze'i zvati lo tce'exo .i ku'i na ku mi [ca] ze'i pu zvati lo tce'exo
14:20 < akmnlrse> uauauauaua
14:20 < akmnlrse> .i CLL jai nu ciksi
14:21 < akmnlrse> .i co'a morji
14:21 < selpahi> mi na birti lo du'u CLL xusra ma kau .i .a'o zmadu mi lo ka zanciksi
14:22 < selpahi> .i ku'i ia CLL mi tugni
14:22 < selpahi> .i lo temci sumtcita cu jai frili .i ku'i cizra mi fa lo canlu sumtcita
14:22 < selpahi> ca lo nu mixre
14:23 < selpahi> .i ia ru'e na panra lo temci sumtcita
14:55 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:02 < pinji> Been learning some vocab words
15:02 < pinji> Still more to go :(
15:03 < pinji> Learning another con-lang as well
15:03 < durka42> there's always more vocab :)
15:03 < durka42> which one?
15:03 < pinji> "vyrmag"
15:03 < pinji> Basic
15:03 < pinji> So around 300
15:05 < durka42> heh, vyrmag sounds like a good counterpoint to lojban
15:05 < durka42> "if it can be understood, it can be used"
15:35  * nuzba @areitu: @nicholaijaguar loglan/lojban (machine parse-able) or Ithkuil are better choices than Esperanto, which is still based on natural language [http://bit.ly/1PUU968]
15:57  * nuzba @laMudri: Imperative logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_logic. Ross' paradox is particularly relevant to #Lojban, and can be taken as an argument against {ko}. [http://bit.ly/1GnBcZ6]
16:03 < durka42> ua
16:14 < ldlework> The idea of even allowing imperatives into an argument seems absurd.
16:15 < ldlework> Like, I'm not even sure what the original motivator for trying it in the first place would be.
16:15 < ldlework> If your argument is a tool to deduce a conclusion from some premises, why would imperatives even be relevant to that tooling.
16:16 < ldlework> Its like considering language outside the context of speech acts.
16:16 < ldlework> As if, imperative speech is the exactly the same 'kind' of speech as assertive speech.
16:16 < ldlework> and you can just interchange them when making a deductive argument
16:16 < durka42> well I guess it's relevant to lojban because the way we teach {ko} is that you just stick in wherever {do} was
16:17 < ldlework> Sure, and the speech act changes
16:17 < durka42> yeah
16:17 < durka42> and apparently some logical transformations don't work anymore
16:17 < ldlework> yeah
16:17 < ldlework> I guess its only obvious after the fact
16:18 < ldlework> I only got a few words in before thinking la'a
16:18 < durka42> I'm just saying, when they said to clean my room they didn't say NOT to burn the house down
16:18 < ldlework> li'a*
17:25 < durka42> la .vyrmag. cu cinri
17:27 < pinji> vyrmag is interesting? pls tell me I got that right
17:28 < durka42> yeah
17:31 < pinji> ui!!!!!!
18:21 < rutytar> coi
18:21 < ldlework> coi
18:25 < rutytar> is the display of lojban in fixed-width official?
18:27 < rutytar> i don't recall seeing it directly addressed in the cll
18:50 < rutytar> so VUhU can be used for lujvo, right?
19:30 < pimlu> coi
19:39 < rutytar> coi la .pimlu.
19:42 < pimlu> coi ry .i mi pu xabju muvdu dycy
19:42 < pimlu> .i do mo
19:42 < pimlu> .i muvdu ki'u lonu me'oi internship
19:50 < rutytar> i'e
19:51 < rutytar> tadni ma
19:51 < rutytar> do tadni ma
20:20 < rutytar> coi su'o do
20:40 < rutytar> coi la .durka.
21:07 < durka42> coi la .rutytar.
21:10 < rutytar> is it legitimate to use VUhU in lujvo?
21:11 < rutytar> i was thinking about ju'u re, or ju'urel
21:11 < rutytar> relju'u, rather
21:11 < rutytar> if that would work
21:11 < durka42> -ju'u is probably a rafsi for something else
21:11 < durka42> vlaste: relju'u
21:11 < vlaste> no results. http://vlasisku.alexburka.com/relju%27u
21:11 < durka42> guess not
21:12 < durka42> vlaste: relju'u (components)
21:12 < vlaste> relju'u (components) = re ju'u? ≈ 2 ju'u?
21:12 < durka42> it doesn't really work because ju'u isn't assigned to anything as a rafsi
21:12 < rutytar> i'o la vlaste sempre
21:14 < rutytar> semtadji
21:17 < rutytar> durka42: regarding the site you linked with the xkcd translations, i have found the dictionary very useful. is it something you want to keep unlisted?
21:17 < durka42> what do you mean, unlisted?
21:17 < rutytar> i mean do you mind if i link it around?
21:19 < durka42> sure that's fine
21:20 < durka42> it's the same software as runs at vlasisku.lojban.org
21:20 < durka42> just my instance was updated more recently
21:20 < rutytar> ah
21:20 < rutytar> awesome
21:20 < durka42> I could ask for access to update the one on lojban.org, but I keep meaning to implement automatic updating so I only have to do that once...
21:21 < rutytar> i've been using the one on jbovlaste.lojban.org, and it's really klunky
21:21 < durka42> jbovlaste is very very clunky
21:22 < rutytar> i was thinking of suggesting some CSS changes to vlasisku too
21:22 < durka42> .e'u
21:22 < durka42> jbovlaste isn't just clunky, it doesn't have full text search of the definitions which is annoying
21:23 < rutytar> it's useful to be able to search lujvo and get the gismu etymology as well
21:23 < durka42> ie
21:25 < rutytar> is writing lojban in lowercase and/or fixed-width font an official thing?
21:25 < rutytar> or is it just what people happen to go with?
21:25 < rutytar> i mean obviously capitalization is arbitrary but what about all caps/
21:26 < durka42> just convention I think
21:26 < durka42> well traditionally capitalization is used to mark stress
21:26 < durka42> it's so much prettier to do that with áccénts though pe'i
21:47 < zipcpi> Hm in my opinion xo and xo'e should be moved to PA4, "discursive numbers". PA5 would then be reserved for mathematical constants and concepts
21:47 < zipcpi> Including all the kurtyvla constants
21:53 < durka42> okay sure
21:53 < durka42> :p
21:54 < zipcpi> Is there anything I say that you'd disagree with, durka42? zo'o :p
21:55 < durka42> sa'u mi te vamji lo selma'o nerlei li no
21:55 < durka42> yeah, I disagree with you about implicit {.i'au} :)
21:55 < zipcpi> Ahahaha
21:55 < durka42> vlaste: affix:sub
21:55 < vlaste> sfubu = x1 dives/swoops [manner of controlled falling] to x2 from x3.
21:55 < durka42> lo sfubu selma'o zo'o
21:56 < zipcpi> But that was because I felt that my initial proposal had too much opposition :p
21:56 < durka42> vlaste: class:PA4
21:56 < vlaste> 15 results: da'a, du'e, ji'i, mo'a, rau, ro, so'a, so'e, so'i, so'o…
21:56 < durka42> vlaste: class:PA5
21:56 < vlaste> 36 results: ci'i, ka'o, no'o, pai, te'o, tu'o, xo, fai'e'au, fai'u'a, fu'a'ai…
21:57 < durka42> ma morna .a'ucu'i
22:00 < zipcpi> Well xo is part of the original definition of the language, so it was officially put into PA5. I think they were just wrong there though
22:02 < durka42> what was PA5 supposed to be?
22:02 < durka42> vlaste: class:PA5 type:cmavo
22:02 < vlaste> 7 results: ci'i, ka'o, no'o, pai, te'o, tu'o, xo
22:02 < zipcpi> Well if xo and xo'e are moved, it would be "mathematical constants and conceptual numbers"
22:02 < durka42> ie
22:02 < durka42> the bpfk section is just called Mathematical Constants
22:03  * zipcpi nods
22:03 < zipcpi> Although it's hard to say that i [ka'o] is a constant
22:03 < durka42> why not?
22:03 < zipcpi> I don't know
22:04 < zipcpi> Probably because it's not used like "pi" would, but to define an entirely different class of numbers
22:04 < zipcpi> I don't know the precise definition of a mathematical constant though so I might be wrong
22:05 < zipcpi> And if "epsilon/delta" are added, those won't be constants
22:07 < durka42> {ka'o} is weird
22:07 < zipcpi> But it doesn't really matter. They can all be the same selma'o
22:07 < durka42> because it's either a constant or a syntactic thing
22:08 < zipcpi> Yeah I'm not too certain about what the consensus that whether the pi'i in {li re pi'i pai} is necessary
22:09 < durka42> mi na djuno .i lo'e mekso cu cizra
22:09 < zipcpi> In the mriste my crazier idea for solving the measurement problem was to define "constants" for each unit
22:09 < durka42> yeah I saw that
22:09 < durka42> an even crazier idea occurred to me
22:09 < rutytar> would it be acceptable to say {lo fe'i re litce}?
22:10 < durka42> lo litce be li fi'u re
22:10 < zipcpi> I wonder whether {lo fi'uremei litce} is acceptable
22:11 < durka42> litce fi'uremei :)
22:12 < zipcpi> Also I disagree that fi'u can be used for the golden ratio. Seems like dangerous overloading to me
22:12 < durka42> ie
22:12 < rutytar> ma fi'u ma
22:13 < durka42> it seems like really reaching for a default :)
22:13 < zipcpi> rutytar: It's xo fi'u xo
22:13 < durka42> li mo'e ma fi'u mo'e ma
22:13 < durka42> zo'o
22:13 < durka42> xo'e fi'u xo'e == fi'u ?
22:14 < rutytar> pa fi'u papixupabinocicisobibi
22:15 < zipcpi> zo xu na namcu
22:21 < rutytar> http://41.media.tumblr.com/ce8a9b6328c896374ea9143adc35e59a/tumblr_nfyu8wTk3W1t5hta1o1_1280.png
22:21 < rutytar> unfortunately they don't sell the shirt any more
22:30 < zipcpi> lol
22:30 < zipcpi> But yeah mathematical symbols are overloaded unfortunately, thus we can't just translated them straight into Lojban. They each need their own word
22:31 < durka42> curtis is working on that...
22:31 < zipcpi> True... my gripe though is that he seems to be working from the top down :p
22:31 < rutytar> but {li _} can't be a sumti, right?
22:31 < durka42> {li} makes a sumti
22:32 < rutytar> so why not {li slona'u}
22:33 < rutytar> or something along those lines...
22:33 < zipcpi> Oh you never told us what's crazier than defining constants for every measurement unit, durka42 :p
22:35 < rutytar> i guess a less metaphorical version of phi would be sarlyna'u
22:35 < durka42> li turns numbers into sumti
22:35 < durka42> lo turns selbri into sumti
22:35 < durka42> zipcpi: oh right!
22:36 < durka42> we just define a consonant+vowel (or diphthong) for each unit, and a zi'evla prefix, and something for division and/or powers I guess
22:37 < durka42> lo ka klanrkigamimifi'unini cu mo .i ko smadi
22:37 < zipcpi> lol... unfortunately the only "safe" zi'evla prefix I know of involves syllabic sonorants
22:38 < durka42> seems like kla- would work as long there is more than one syllable after it
22:38 < durka42> (otherwise you might get {klama})
22:38 < durka42> anyway that's enough crazy proposals for one night, time for bed!
22:39 < zipcpi> Night
22:39 < rutytar> co'o la .durkavore.
22:39 < zipcpi> Dots aren't necessary; it's a legal zi'evla (although it doesn't mean anything)
22:40 < zipcpi> co'o
22:40 < rutytar> my englophonic brain wants some capitalization equivalent
22:40 < zipcpi> Ahaha
22:42  * nuzba @alexrothier: @hsteix o esperanto deu errado MAS O LOJBAN VOCÊ VAI VER........,, [http://bit.ly/1djdMsZ]
22:44 < rutytar> zipcpi: if you don't mind me asking, how long have you been into lojban?
22:47 < zipcpi> It's hard to answer because I picked it up waaaaay back, but stopped for a while
22:50 < zipcpi> I gotta go. co'o
22:50 < rutytar> co'o
23:42 < gleki> mensi: doi selpahi la rosetas zo'u xu su'o da se zamgu lo ka pilno ry i ju'ocu'i i ta'o mi caku se xajmi la duolingos i mu'a zoi gy. My pillow doesn't talk .gy. mupli vau oi u'i
23:42 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.selpahi.gy. di'a cusku da
23:47 < gleki> akmnlrse: ki'e i xamgu la'a a'o
--- Day changed Wed May 20 2015
01:49 < gleki> what does {pa dau} mean?
01:52 < Pendrokar> Having confusion with hexadecimal numbers?
01:53 < gleki> well, will it definitely mean "1A" in hex system even if you use 10 base around?
01:56 < Pendrokar> Or does it mean "one of A(hex)"?
01:57 < Pendrokar> By that I mean one amount of A(hex).
01:57 < gleki> no, they are PA. PA string into numbers (implementation of positional system in theis part of Lojban grammar)
01:58 < gleki> one of A would be {pa lo dau broda}
02:02 < Pendrokar> I see, then I think the number switches to base 15, when at least one hexadecimal number is used.
02:03 < gleki> most likely
03:47  * nuzba @lojban_org: #português Como criar frases de forma rápida em #lojban https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vHwrombt_Vo0YnTz_h_AtFUFLPLyfd1OktcB_P0ckjQ&authuser=0 [http://bit.ly/1PW5SSa]
03:53 < zipcpi> coi
03:54 < Zyxl> coi
03:55 < zipcpi> So I joined Tatoeba. Also included some example sentences of dates and speeds using my experimental constructions
03:56 < zipcpi> Also included an explanation as to why I think a {lo minli to'e cacra} {to'e cacra}s
03:57 < zipcpi> Because {cacra} measures duration, so {to'e cacra} (hour^-1) measures briefness
03:57 < zipcpi> Speed is just the "briefness of distance"
03:57 < zipcpi> All that discussion about epsilons can be saved for another time :p
03:58 < Zyxl> "le trene cu sutra xoi minli to'e cacra li munono" "The train was going 500 miles per hour"
03:58  * zipcpi nods
04:01 < zipcpi> The date proposal on the other hand is basically an adaptation of ISO 8601 to be more flexible and usable as a language
04:01 < zipcpi> Or sub-language if you will :p
04:02 < zipcpi> Is there a PA that means "every number"?
04:03 < gleki> the date proposal is actually removing one part of language and replacing it with another one. i dont think it's a perfectly Lojbanic solution (neither pi'e one is IMO) but it seems usable and until something better is devised we'll have to use it
04:04 < gleki> every number is {no bi'o ro} or something
04:04 < zipcpi> Hm
04:04 < zipcpi> Well I think that old proposal of {dreika} is the most "Lojbanic" but it wasn't very usable
04:05 < Zyxl> Well, that's every non-negative number, but {no bi'o ci'i} sounds more reasonable.
04:08 < zipcpi> I think the main problem is that dates and times don't make sense and are irregular in many ways, but we're stuck with them
04:08 < zipcpi> Both due to tradition and due to the accident of the length of the day and year
04:09 < zipcpi> ISO 8601 is a system designed to define standards for what format a computer program should expect a date and time to be in
04:10 < Zyxl> We should just use milliseconds after Jan 1 1970. Anything before that is negative.
04:11 < Zyxl> Give a range if you mean a whole day.
04:11 < zipcpi> lol Yeah that's what I said when this all started. "Would be that we all used Unix time. Unfortunately we can't change the length of the day or year, or perform rapid calculations in our brains to adapt"
04:13 < gleki> if vector is a multidimensional vector then datestamp has to be expressed exactly this way. "month" is one dimenion, "second" is another etc.
04:14 < gleki> oops, "if datestamp is a multidimensional vector ..."
04:15 < zipcpi> Yeah that's what {dreika} did. But it had no semantic hooks for its place structure unlike letter-tags, and extended past the five places that Lojban naturally supports
04:16 < gleki> i dont think dimensions should all be hardcoded in the place structure of some new brivla
04:16 < gleki> one dimension - one word
04:17 < zipcpi> The old brivla for cacra, jeftu, masti, etc. still exist. And is still part of my suggested construction for "miles per hour"
04:18 < gleki> e.g. mi jbena fi'o detmasti li pa fi'o detycacra li pano = i was born in January at 10 oclock ...
04:19 < zipcpi> Yeah... but that's long. That could be part of the formal definition of the NLDCMS ve detri, yes, but it can't be commonly used.
04:19 < gleki> also datestamps are point events, periods are not. maybe some ze'a/co'i distinction to differentiate between them
04:19 < gleki> and a reference point in Year 1 AD
04:19 < gleki> or  in Now() depending on your needs
04:20 < Zyxl> A date could be a number with {pi} as a separator: {renopamu pi pare [pi] zo'e [pi] revo} is midnight on some day in December 2015.
04:20 < zipcpi> That's pi'e
04:20 < Zyxl> fa fe fi fo fu to skip to specific points perhaps.
04:20 < gleki> i dont like this datestamp covering all dimensions at once.
04:21 < zipcpi> No fa fe fi fo fu only work for sumti, not numbers
04:21 < gleki> i'd like to see separate words one for each dimension
04:21 < Zyxl> Yeah, I meant something like that.
04:22 < gleki> the whole idea of "datestamp" variable type is un-Lojbanic.
04:24  * nuzba @Kitten_Tech: @iElectric I keep misreading it as "Lojban" :-/ [http://bit.ly/1Huf68K]
04:24 < gleki> https://twitter.com/iElectric/status/600981802128429058
04:24 < gleki> .title
04:24 < phenny> gleki: Domen Kožar on Twitter: "https://t.co/d6GjlY4Hbf - The Logjam Attack"
04:25 < zipcpi> Yeah lol
04:33 < zipcpi> Also, ISO 8601 dates are numbers in their own way - those "period"-type datestamps can be added and subtracted from each other
04:35 < gleki> So maybe they should take dates in various formats and return JDN numbers?
04:35 < zipcpi> JDN ki'a?
04:36 < gleki> Julian Day Number
04:36 < zipcpi> Oh
04:36 < gleki> and JDNs then can be easily subtracted etc.
04:36 < zipcpi> Well the thing is though that they don't act like real numbers in some ways, especially when it comes to the concept of a "month"
04:37 < gleki> month is its input. JDn would be its output
04:37 < zipcpi> Yes, but a month doesn't equal any specific number of days
04:38 < gleki> that's what function should calculate
04:38 < zipcpi> Only when given context
04:38 < zipcpi> P1M doesn't equal any number of days
04:39 < gleki> ofc. such function can be lazy so if you dont specify enough arguments you will never get a precise value of JDN. 
04:39 < zipcpi> P1M = P30D can only be answered "na'i" until given context
04:39 < gleki> it will return still a function
04:42 < zipcpi> Even P1Y could be 365 or 366 days depending on context
04:43 < zipcpi> Even P1D is of uncertain length when you factor in daylight savings time (oi iunai) or leap seconds
04:43 < zipcpi> The arithmetic is still completely defined though
04:44 < zipcpi> ISO already did all the work for us there
04:44 < gleki> P1D is the result of a partial application of function
04:46 < Zyxl> Why are we talking about functions, outputs and return values? People can't be expected to run arithmetic algorithms in their heads!
04:49 < zipcpi> Exactly why I think my system is the best compromise that can be achieved given the limitations
04:54 < gleki> When we say "February, 13 12:45" I'm not saying in Lojban the return value must be calculated
04:57 < zipcpi> But anyway yeah on Tatoeba... I was able to read most of the Chinese or Malay sentences... but I can't construct them naturally T.T
04:57 < gleki> it just needs that return values are able to be summed up together, subtracted etc.
04:58 < zipcpi> They do not map to integers or real-numbers. Only specific dates can be converted into Unix time
04:58 < gleki> But I'm not saying humans should calculate anything. No! They just say "In 10 days after February 13". The system must allow adding 10 days to the date.
04:58 < zipcpi> They instead have their own arithmetic
04:59 < zipcpi> You can tell a computer to ad P10D to 2015-02-13 under ISO
04:59 < zipcpi> And it will always return 2015-02-23
04:59 < gleki> Yes, and its return value can be calculated on computers but not necessarily by humans.
04:59  * zipcpi nods
05:00 < zipcpi> All I am saying is that if ISO dates and periods are numbers (even if they don't map to the real-number line perfectly), so are NLDCMS dates.
05:00 < gleki> So I'm saying "February 13" is a string specifying a function with two arguments. The return value which nobody is gonna calculate in mind must nevertheless be of such variable type that one can add 10 days to it never calculating the result but being sure that the result can be calculated.
05:01 < zipcpi> And that function already does exist in every standard library that handles ISO 8601 dates
05:02 < gleki> But not in Lojban
05:02 < Zyxl> I don't see what the problem is.
05:02 < zipcpi> If we want that, all we need to do is write a program that can convert NLDCMS into ISO 8601
05:02 < gleki> I want normal variable types to be returned by brivla, not this ugly detri1 and tcika1 variable type.
05:04 < zipcpi> It's a number. It's not the same kind of number as li re, li papimu, or li pai but it is a number
05:04 < gleki> I clearly differentiate them
05:04 < zipcpi> Take that up with ISO 8601
05:05 < gleki> i wil write down later my proposal
05:07  * nuzba @TimMason: ou mieux - Lojban - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban https://twitter.com/Uneheuredepeine/status/600991926469419008 [http://bit.ly/1LkXx9J]
05:09 < zipcpi> And it may be "ugly", but the date system is ugly
05:09 < zipcpi> But we're stuck with it
05:10 < gleki> i will write down the description of a better one, okay
05:10  * zipcpi shrugs.... If it involves lots of fi'o broda I don't think it will catch on
05:11 < Zyxl> Convert everything to base 10 and wait for the rest of the world to follow.
05:11 < zipcpi> But we still have to figure out what time of day something is
05:11 < zipcpi> And you just said we can't do that kind of stuff in our heads :p
05:12 < Zyxl> We now have 10 hours in a day. We don't convert to 24 hours, even when speaking English :)
05:12 < zipcpi> That ship has sailed. The SI unit of time is the second.
05:13 < gleki> no, there werent be fi'o
05:13 < gleki> *wont
05:13 < zipcpi> OK I won't say anything more about it then until it's out
06:15 < gleki> Looks like i m not absoutely needed anymore for LMW. la guskant fully understood all the formlizations i developed for the wiki and is moving them forward.
06:21 < zipcpi> Hm
06:52  * nuzba @Dulcedo_0312: ひっさびさにlojban使ったから、なんか色々とアレ [http://bit.ly/1PwSlFx]
07:28 < gleki> Here we go. Someone wants to translate the whole jbovlaste dictionary to Portuguese.
07:28 < Zyxl> Good luck to them.
07:31 < gleki> i probably need to be able to generate an excel file for them
07:33 < zipcpi> co'o
07:54 < zipcpi> doi jbocre ma xamgu valsi lo si'o me'oi. concatenate?
07:54 < zipcpi> String concatenation
07:54 < zipcpi> Think it will need to be a new brivla but should it be a lujvo
07:55 < zipcpi> Are there even proper brivla for "addition" and "subtraction" in the numeric sense
07:56 < zipcpi> konkate
07:57 < durka42> jmina
07:57 < zipcpi> Yeah but I want it to be a very specific term
07:57 < durka42> lerpoijmina
07:57 < zipcpi> poijmina
07:57 < zipcpi> No that just breaks
07:57 < durka42> porjmina
07:58 < zipcpi> Hmm should probably parallel sumji in place structure
07:59 < zipcpi> Which is the "addition" brivla I was looking for
07:59 < zipcpi> jmina has an agent so might not be so suitable... porsumji?
08:00 < zipcpi> me'o xy zy cu porsumji me'o xy me'o zy
08:00 < zipcpi> pei
08:01 < zipcpi> Then I want a new VUhU cmavo for it
08:01 < zipcpi> So I can actually do something to li pa and li re to get li pare (or maybe me'o instead of li)
08:02 < zipcpi> ... porsumji is already taken
08:02 < zipcpi> Means "sum of all members of a set"
08:05 < rutytar> i'esai kensa
08:06 < durka42> en: porsumji
08:06 < durka42> vlaste: porsumji
08:06 < vlaste> porsumji = x1 is the sum of all the members of the number sequence x2
08:06 < durka42> hmmmm
08:06 < mensi> porsumji [< porsi sumji ≈ Sequence total] = x1 is the sum of all the members of the number sequence x2 |>>> See also
08:06 < mensi> sumji |>>> Ilmen
08:06 < rutytar> pa and re and only associated with pare in base ten
08:06 < durka42> I wonder what {sujporsi} means
08:07 < zipcpi> Yeah out of ideas other than konkate. Other words like jorne just don't have the right place structure
08:07 < durka42> jvajvo is not a physical law
08:08 < Ilmen> I've chosen to have a predicate for the sum of a sequence and not a set because a set cannot contains two times the same number, which may be undesirable
08:08 < zipcpi> Oh yeah true. I just used the wrong word
08:08 < Ilmen> and please don't have a look to my ugly Lojban def
08:08 < zipcpi> lol
08:10 < zipcpi> rutytar: All too true, yet most programming languages has the concept of string concatenation (though I don't see why the brivla can't also be used to concatenate any sequence)
08:10 < Ilmen> en: konkatena
08:10 < mensi> konkatena = x1 (sequence) is the concatenation of sequences x2 and x3 (and x4...) |>>> See also porsi. |>>>
08:10 < mensi> Ilmen
08:10 < rutytar> ah
08:10 < zipcpi> Did you just add that?
08:11 < Ilmen> Nope
08:11 < zipcpi> OK cool. Now we have a brivla... I think it also needs a VUhU
08:11 < Ilmen> You can check out the creation date on Jbovlaste
08:11 < zipcpi> ua
08:12 < zipcpi> Because VUhU works in me'o too, not just li
08:12 < rutytar> is "konkatena" allowed? that seems arbitrary
08:12 < zipcpi> It's a valid zi'evla
08:12 < rutytar> aren't the brivla supposed to be based on gismu though?
08:12 < zipcpi> lujvo are based on gismu
08:12 < Ilmen> brivla are declined into 3 sub-categories: gismu, lujvo and zi'evla/fu'ivla
08:12 < rutytar> oh, it's a loanword
08:12 < Ilmen> {konkatena} is a zi'evla/fu'ivla
08:13 < Ilmen> exp: +s konkatena
08:13 < mensi> (CU [Z:konkatena VAU])
08:13 < Ilmen> Z = zi'evla
08:13 < rutytar> why not {jorne porsi}
08:13 < Ilmen> exp: +s lujlujvo
08:13 < mensi> (CU [L:lujlujvo VAU])
08:13 < Ilmen> exp: +s gismu
08:13 < mensi> (CU [G:gismu VAU])
08:14 < Ilmen> What predicate are you searching for?
08:14 < zipcpi> Now I have a predicate, I just want a VUhU :p
08:15 < zipcpi> Or maybe a JOI would be better
08:15 < Ilmen> Isn't {na'u konkatena} good enough?
08:15 < zipcpi> Yeah I think it should be a JOI
08:15 < rutytar> since it deals with strings it would be non-mathematical, wouldn't it?
08:15 < zipcpi> Yeah VUhU might not be right. I think it should be a JOI
08:16 < Ilmen> In the experimental grammar, the selmaho VUhU and JOI are merged.
08:16 < zipcpi> Heh
08:16 < Ilmen> The experimental grammar is nothing official, it's for testing various grammar proposals; however this shows that JOI and VUhU *can* be merged
08:17 < Ilmen> without losing unambiguousness
08:17  * zipcpi nods
08:18 < zipcpi> me'o xy na'u konkatena me'o zy du me'o xy zy
08:19 < zipcpi> Concatenation is a basic enough concept to be an operator though (often overloaded to addition, but we probably want to avoid that)
08:19 < Ilmen> exp: mi na'u kansa do klama
08:19 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "k" found.
08:19 < Ilmen> :q
08:20 < zipcpi> Oops :p
08:20 < Ilmen> It probably can be made grammatical, it would be nice
08:20 < zipcpi> Yeah if VUhU is to be merged with JOI, NAhU should work too
08:20 < Ilmen> so that for example ju'e = na'u co'e
08:21 < Ilmen> je = na'u zilkanxe
08:21 < Ilmen> etc
08:23 < Ilmen> I've already considered making a cmavo for converting a predicate to a connective by the past
08:23 < Ilmen> if {na'u} can be that, I'll probably begin using {na'u}, which I've almost never used so far .u'i
08:26 < Ilmen> Because, in actuallity connectives *are* predicates, but with a different syntax
08:27 < Ilmen> {ge mi klama gi mi sipna} = {zilkanxe fa lo du'u mi klama kei lo du'u mi sipna}
08:28 < durka42> coi la florida
08:28 < Ilmen> coi la .kalis.
08:30 < zipcpi> ... lol Curtis bit me to it
08:30 < zipcpi> joi'i
08:30 < durka42> Ilmen: "shows they can be merged without causing unambiguousness"? I didn't think we had anything like a formal proof of that
08:30 < durka42> en: joi'i
08:30 < mensi> joi'i = [VUhU] mekso string operator (n-ary): formal left-concatenation; X1+X2+X3+..., where Xi is a string/word/text
08:30 < mensi> |>>> Generally noncommutative. The result is a single string written over the alphabet that is the union of each of the
08:30 < mensi> alphabets of the Xi's. "ABC"+"DEF"+"GHI"  = "ABCDEFGHI". |>>> krtisfranks
08:30 < durka42> whoa sai a useful kurtynomvla
08:30 < zipcpi> Yes o.o
08:31 < Ilmen> durka42: I meant syntactic unambiguousness
08:31 < Ilmen> exp: mi vu'u do
08:31 < mensi> ([mi {vu'u do}] VAU)
08:31 < Ilmen> exp: mi klama su'i citka
08:31 < mensi> (mi [CU {klama <su'i citka>} VAU])
08:33 < durka42> well we wrote it into the PEG, which means the PEG is unambiguous, but isn't it possible that merging JOI and VUhU breaks some parses that we didn't notice yet?
08:33 < durka42> where by "break" I mean "change"
08:34 < Ilmen> Possible, I don't know. That's where a parse test corpus would come in handy.
08:34 < durka42> yeah
08:34 < durka42> camxes-py has a start of one
08:39 < zipcpi> Well I'm also thinking it can be used for weird things like li renopaso joi'i re ga'o bi'o ga'o mu joi'i xaze, to mean any number of the set {2019267}, {2019367}, {2019467}, {2019567}
08:39 < zipcpi> Of course that only means something in base ten
08:44 <@xalbo> Hmm, {li pa joi re plise} doesn't parse how I expected it to (I expected {li pa lo'o joi re plise ku}, but i think it's more {li pa joi re lo'u cu plise}.
08:45 < zipcpi> The number one with two apples?
08:45 <@xalbo> That's what I expected it to be.
08:46 < zipcpi> That's a very weird breakfast zo'o
08:46 <@xalbo> But camxes seems to be saying it's "The number one-and-two is an apple."
08:46 < zipcpi> That's an even weirder breakfast :p
08:47 <@xalbo> .ie sai
08:52 < gleki> bau la djavaskript zo su'i dunli zo joi'i
08:53 < zipcpi> Yeah but then you have to typecast numbers if you want to concatenate them like strings, then typecast them back
09:07 < ldlework> coi
09:10 < zipcpi> la .kerbal. kensa litryselpla
09:12 < ldlework> mo
09:15 < zipcpi> Kerbal Space Program
09:16 < zipcpi> Though I haven't played in a while
09:16 < zipcpi> Too busy with Lojban
09:17 < rutytar> does a second part of a lujvo have to use the later rafsi of a gismu?
09:18 < rutytar> for example xunta'a and not xuntav in "xunre tavla"
09:18 < zipcpi> Er no... the rules of building lujvo can be quite complicated, but one of them is that they must end in a vowel
09:19 < rutytar> so rutytar isn't a proper lujvo… :(
09:19 < zipcpi> Nope. It's a jvocmevla :p
09:20 < zipcpi> A cmevla made using a similar process to lujvo, but is a cmevla
09:20 < rutytar> does that carry have any meaning?
09:21 < rutytar> carry or have
09:21 < zipcpi> Well it means when I say {coi .rutytar.} those pauses are mandatory
09:23 < zipcpi> While {la rutytarci} won't require any pauses. It's a mere stylistic difference what people would prefer for their name though
09:24 < rutytar> i'a
09:24 < zipcpi> It would mean something if you're trying to make it a brivla. Although the new grammar allows using cmevla as selbri, defining a brivla is preferred because then a place structure can be defined and added to the dictionary
09:25 < zipcpi> While the meaning of cmevla are just whatever the speaker wants it to be, like Humpty Dumpty
09:25 < rutytar> cool
09:39 < rutytar> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/solji what's with "[metaphor: valuable, heavy, non-reactive]"? isn't that unlojban?
09:41 < zipcpi> pe'a
09:42 < zipcpi> You can mark words as metaphorical using pe'a
09:42 < rutytar> good to know :p
09:43 < zipcpi> Also some lujvo use metaphorical compounds or calques because otherwise they'd be too long
09:46 < zipcpi> Example of pe'a: la .tom. cu besna pe'a lo tadni kamni "Tom is the "brains" of the study-group"
09:47 < rutytar> do all attitudinals come after a selbri if they only apply to that word?
09:48 < rutytar> that selbri
09:48 < zipcpi> Attitudinals by default attach to the last lexical item
09:48 < durka42> attitudinals usually apply to the word before
09:48 < durka42> unless the word before opens a construct like {lo} or {poi}, in which case they apply to the whole construct
09:49 < zipcpi> ie
09:50 < zipcpi> If the word before opens or closes a construct it would apply to the entire construct
09:50 < zipcpi> There are many words that close constructs in Lojban, known as terminator-cmavo or famyma'o
09:50 < zipcpi> They act like the close brackets in computer programs
09:50 < zipcpi> However most of the time they aren't needed
09:51 < rutytar> la .tom. cu besna zo'o lo tadni kamni
09:51 < zipcpi> zo'o would mean something entirely different
09:51 < zipcpi> It would then mean your word choice is humorously intended.
09:51 < rutytar> that's what i was getting at
09:51  * zipcpi nods
09:52 < rutytar> although i guess sarcasm is the biggest no-no
09:52 < zipcpi> Oh, sarcasm is {xo'o}
09:52 < rutytar> ah
09:53 < zipcpi> Yep. Don't underestimate cmavo
09:53 < zipcpi> They may be little but they are very expressive
09:54 < zipcpi> If you want an attitudinal to apply to the entire sentence... well it's a little complicated. Before you had to close your sentence using the appropriate famyma'o. Usually it was vau, which closes a bridi-tail
09:55 < durka42> just put the attitudinal after .i
09:55 < zipcpi> But some sentences have nested bridi using lo nu or lo ka
09:55 < zipcpi> But that's why I created two new cmavo, {i'au} and {ji'au}
09:55 < zipcpi> i'au attaches the attitudinal to the entire sentence, no questions asked
09:56 < durka42> .i'e
09:56 < rutytar> it's traditional in english not to use periods at the end of a standalone signals like speech bubbles or chat messages
09:57 < zipcpi> {ji'au} is more for disambiguation reasons; it's to say that "yes, I mean this to apply to the last lexical element", because people often forget to close their sentences before adding an attitudinal
09:57 < rutytar> would "ai mi xunre" be acceptable for "i want to be red"?
09:57 < zipcpi> I intend to be red
09:58 < rutytar> i'e
09:58 < ldlework> {au} is desire
09:58 < zipcpi> It's a slightly different shade of meaning from .au "desire"
09:58 < zipcpi> You can intend to do something but not really want to :p
09:59 < durka42> .ai .au nai toi'e .oi
10:00 < zipcpi> toi'e? Interesting. I've been using ji'au for that purpose sometimes
10:00 < ldlework> its not in sutsis
10:00 < durka42> toi'e is the only kurtynomyma'o I use :p
10:00 < zipcpi> lol
10:00 < durka42> ldlework: I guess sutsis hasn't been updated in the past few days then
10:01 < lindar> Is there someone here named "Colin"?
10:01 < durka42> do you mean the laldo laldo sutsis or gleki's version?
10:01 < ldlework> http://sutsis.nomei.la/
10:01 < durka42> ldlework: that hasn't been updated in forever
10:01 < ldlework> >_>
10:01 < durka42> mi'enai la .kalin.
10:01 < rutytar> durka42: what is "nom" in kurtynomyma'o?
10:01 < durka42> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/
10:02 < durka42> ldlework: ^
10:02 < zipcpi> Well if toi'e is its own selma'o technically i'au and ji'au should join it
10:02 < zipcpi> But I don't know about the status of kurtynomselma'o :p
10:02 < durka42> toi'e is its own selmaho because it's a parenthesis with {toi'o} (which almost never used)
10:02 < zipcpi> Well technically i'au and ji'au work similarly and may need their famyma'o too
10:04 < durka42> rutytar: -nom- (and its more rare companion -bom-) is a cute little proposal from la selckiku. it's for including a name in a lujvo. for example {selpa'ivla} means "the loved word" or something, but {selpa'inomvla}, really {bomselpa'inomvla}, means "la selpa'i's word"
10:04 < zipcpi> Yeah it's an unofficial rafsi
10:06 < durka42> pe'asai ge ra'oi -bom- rafsi lu me la li'u gi ra'oi -nom- rafsi zo ku
10:07 < ldlework> durka42: ki'e
10:09 < gleki> so "sutsis" confuses people
10:09 < durka42> yes
10:09 < zipcpi> Is selma'o TOIhE even coded?
10:09 < durka42> no
10:09 < zipcpi> Awr because now I really want i'au and ji'au to join it
10:09 < durka42> so you'd have i'au and ji'au also terminated by toi'o?
10:10 < zipcpi> Yes
10:10 < durka42> adding it to camxes-exp might be a nice exercise :p
10:10 < durka42> I could try it
10:10 < durka42> later though
10:10 < gleki> if not "sutsis" then what? "vlasis"?
10:11 < durka42> sutzmasis .u'i
10:11 < ldlework> sutsis isn't confusing, we should just take down the other one which shows up on google
10:11 < durka42> maybe better to ask curtis to redirect that one yeah
10:11 < gleki> too long.
10:11 < ldlework> (also I like the old styling better)
10:11 < gleki> Curtis? Wasn't it lai az?
10:12 < gleki> ldlework: feel free to pr
10:12 < durka42> you're right nomei is az's site
10:14 < gleki> it should be a short name, a reljvo preferably
10:14 < gleki> or reljvocevla
10:14 < gleki> reljvocmevla
10:17 < zipcpi> sutzmasis is unacceptable. /tz/ is a banned combo
10:17 < zipcpi> :p
10:17 < durka42> yeah I realized that after I said it
10:17 < durka42> it would be sutyzmasis
10:17 < durka42> but if we can reach lai az, we don't have to change the name
10:19 < zipcpi> OK moved them to TOIhE. At least on jvs
10:19 < gleki> If no one succeeds in reaching lai az then I wiill just rename it to {sutris}
10:20 < gleki> or {tetris} (terto rismi)
10:20 < gleki> zo'o
10:20 < gleki> and the icon will be changes accordingly
10:20 < gleki> *changed
10:20 < durka42> I'll email him
10:23 < gleki> has anyone succceded in reaching him after he last emailed to LLG?
10:23 < gleki> is his twitter account still active?
10:23 < durka42> mo'u mrilu
10:24 < gleki> oh, {sursis}/
10:24 < gleki> ?
10:24 < gleki> and a slogan "download once, relax forever"
10:25 < zipcpi> I actually wonder if Curtis would say anything if he notices I moved i'au and ji'au
10:25 < rutytar> i was thinking about trying to do something like this
10:25 < zipcpi> He didn't quite understand what i'au was for when I first defined it :p
10:26 < durka42> you explained, though
10:26 < zipcpi> Yep
10:28 < zipcpi> But yeah I do believe they fit together. toi'e is also an attitudinal scope modifier. It means that "these attitudinals apply to other attitudinals"
10:31 < rutytar> i was looking for a list of gismu etymology in their original script, but according to the wiki it's only in physical copy
10:31 < rutytar> i scraped some from wiktionary but it's missing almost all the arabic and a lot of the hindi and russian
10:32 < rutytar> but i think it'd be nice to have for a dictionary
10:32 < rutytar> is this la sutsis thing open source?
10:34 < rutytar> well disregard that https://github.com/rictic/sutsis
10:35 < durka42> I'm not sure where gleki's updated code lives
10:35 < rutytar> is the one up a more recent version than the github link?
10:37 < durka42> yes
10:38 < durka42> gleki: is this it? https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/tree/master/i/en
10:40 < gleki> yes
10:41 < rutytar> what is this?
10:41 < gleki> it's indeed technically not sutsis anymore since polymer is gone, fonts are disabled, db is incompatible, fullproof search library is fixed in various places ...
10:42 < rutytar> gleki: is this github icon your work?
10:43 < gleki> lujvo decomposing tool is taken from livla and the original one is removed ...
10:43 < gleki> rutytar: icon?
10:43 < rutytar> the flower and gear
10:43 < gleki> oh, my avatar
10:43 < gleki> my idea probably
10:43 < gleki> but svg itself is not
10:44 < gleki> other symbols are here http://mw.lojban.org/papri/lojbo_sinxa
10:44 < zipcpi> I like it actually :p
10:45 < rutytar> this is cool
10:45 < gleki> we dont have an artist, we dont have a web designer, we dont have an ecommerce manager.
10:46 < gleki> we are a bunch of programmers/linguists and those who are nothing (the last category includes gleki)
10:46 < zipcpi> lol awr
10:46 < zipcpi> Well I'm only an amateur linguist :p
10:46 < rutytar> we'll i'll give it a shot
10:47 < rutytar> is there anything that needs doing?
10:47 < zipcpi> I talk like a linguist but I'm not trained as one
10:47 < gleki> see "Issues" but mostly what needs to be done is to force gleki fix those issues
10:47 < rutytar> i mean in the graphic design/CSS front
10:48 < gleki> heh, yes of course. look at everything and fix it. How? No idea. I'm no da Vinci.
10:48 < gleki> to no da vinci i ie mi djuno toi
10:48 < ldlework> rutytar: a welcome page for la jbogu'e ku would be cool
10:49 < rutytar> what is la jbogu'e?
10:49 < zipcpi> It's a new "second-life" project
10:49 < gleki> what needs to be done is to finish taggin Tatoeba sentences. If this is done Lojban will raise to the level of a language that can be learnt from usage not from drilling the grammar only
10:50 < ldlework> rutytar: a private opensim instance that's being built to help with language immersion and such
10:50 < rutytar> ldlework: an actual video game with an engine?
10:50 < ldlework> rutytar: when you go to login currently, its just an ugly pink screen
10:50 < ldlework> rutytar: Its not a video game... its uh...
10:51 < rutytar> is there 3d rendering?
10:51 < ldlework> yeah
10:51 < ldlework> We have a text only client too, if you just wanna chat, etc
10:51 < ldlework> rutytar: have you ever heard of Gary's Mod?
10:51 < rutytar> yeah
10:52 < rutytar> so it's source SDK?
10:52 < ldlework> rutytar: its like a more generalized Gary's Mod. We can join, we have avatars, we can build in the game, and write code to give objects in the game behavior.
10:52 < ldlework> rutytar: no its not source, I'm just trying to give you an idea of what its like
10:52 < ldlework> We can create arbitrary geometry and arbitrary behavior
10:52 < rutytar> but it's in browser
10:52 < ldlework> No
10:53 < Zyxl> I'm sure I could help with graphics (2-D and 3-D), Opensim, web design/dev and programming, but I won't have time until at least July.
10:53 < ldlework> rutytar: have you ever heard of second life?
10:53 < rutytar> i've heard of it but i'm not familiar with the engine or anything
10:53 < ldlework> Zyxl: awesome
10:53 < ldlework> rutytar: don't imagine anything but the following
10:54 < Zyxl> I don't have experience with Opensim, but I have done 3-D games in Blender.
10:54 < Zyxl> I'm sure I can adapt.
10:54 < ldlework> you can login, there's a ground and a sky, and you and everyone has an avatar. You can draw arbitrary geometry into the world to build anything you want. You can also add scripts to anything in the world.
10:54 < ldlework> Zyxl: yeah OpenSim is pretty easy if you're already familiar with similar things
10:55 < zipcpi> ei mi cliva co'o
10:55 < ldlework> Zyxl: someone who can do even primitive blender modeling will be a big help
10:55 < ldlework> you can do a lot from within the sim, but obviously with blender you can create very highdetail stuff
10:55 < Zyxl> Okay, can't do people though :/
10:55 < ldlework> Zyxl: hehe
10:55 < ldlework> Zyxl: the idea is to use opensim to build out an environment we can all use for lojban immersion
10:56 < ldlework> I already have a pack of high quality 3D assets for stuff like food, fruits veggies and so on
10:56 < Zyxl> Cool.
10:56 < ldlework> So we can build a market place and people can use that to have things to talk about
10:56 < Zyxl> We have permission to use them right?
10:56 < ldlework> Zyxl: come hang out in #jboguhe
10:57 < rutytar> it seems like a welcome page should come later in development
10:58 < niek> Hello.
11:00 < rutytar> coi la .niek.
11:03 < ldlework> rutytar: it just helps the first time you login be a bit more comfortable
11:03 < ldlework> I'll whip something up eventually
11:04 < ldlework> highquality lojban flag or somethin
11:04 < ldlework> rutytar: also if you're interested in helping with jboguhe, if only trivially we're in #jboguhe
11:10 < gleki> rutytar: i mean if you dins something not pretty in deisgn feel free to fix it and send push requests
11:11 < rutytar> ldlework: nothing against you or your project, but any project has some probability of not working out, and the probability is higher earlier on than later on. visual design as it pertains to splash screens and the like is dependent on the content of the project, so it makes more sense for me to try to improve something which exists than participate in building something from the ground up
11:12 < rutytar> although obviously none of us are here for the sheer utility of learning the language :p
11:16 < rutytar> something like a flag i'd be happy to do, but my experience as a graphic designer in group projects like that is that i'll make something and then people will change their mind about what they want, and it ends up being quite frustrating from my perspective
11:16 < gleki> rutytar: was it you who designed icons for the wiki?
11:17 < rutytar> no, i've only been here about three days
11:17 < rutytar> i'd like to, though, if there's demand
11:18 < ldlework> rutytar: none taken
11:18 < ldlework> rutytar: I'll take care of it
12:15 < durka42> I wish jbovlaste showed deltas of changes, instead of just "this word was updated, who knows what it used to say, YOLO!"
12:15 < rutytar> what's lojban for YOLO?
12:15 < rutytar> i suggest the attitudinal "yo'o"
12:15 < durka42> zu'erxiolo
12:16 < durka42> (hmm, needs to be updated morphologically)
12:16 < durka42> en: zu'erxiolo
12:16 < mensi> zu'erxiolo = x1 does x2 (ka) because YOLO. |>>> Joke-word more than anything. Contextually, one could use iorlo, but a
12:16 < mensi> definite type-4 is not worthy of such a rubbish meaning. |>>> djeikyb
12:16 < rutytar> durka42: this is why github
12:16 < durka42> hmm?
12:17 < ldlework> durka42: he's saying we should use version control
12:17 < rutytar> if the lojban community used git fork mapping and deltas would be automatic
12:17 < durka42> yeah but his name wasn't "ldlework" so I was confused :p
12:17 < durka42> yes I'm on board with that we've been through this before :)
12:17 < ldlework> durka42: fair enough!
12:17 < ldlework> :)
12:18 < durka42> a automatic git mirror of jbovlaste would be interesting
12:18 < rutytar> if you don't want your system to be perfect than i don't know why you're using lojban in the first place
12:18 < rutytar> :p
12:18 < durka42> lo ka prane cu bradi lo ka zabna
12:19 < ldlework> really, github should be the source of a dictionary
12:19 < ldlework> not the other way around
12:19 < Zluglu> .ie
12:19 < durka42> well
12:19 < durka42> yes
12:19 < durka42> first step is auto-mirror
12:19 < ldlework> that seems hard
12:19 < durka42> second step is to make it bidirectional so changes can be pushed back in
12:20 < durka42> then you kill the primary
12:20 < ldlework> the data is relational sql
12:20 < durka42> embrace, extend, extinguish :p
12:20 < ldlework> haha
12:20 < rutytar> can we convert the data to json or something, and have a script on the main server which imports it into sql?
12:21 < ldlework> basically the reason we can never go away from jbvolaste is because of its glosser which no one knows how it works anymore?
12:22 < ldlework> (and is deemed to valuable to leave behind)
12:22 < rutytar> what does the glosser do?
12:22 < ldlework> creates english-like sentences from lojban
12:23 < rutytar> isn't it just a key/value table essentially?
12:23 < durka42> which glosser?
12:23 < ldlework> rutytar: nope, it does tons of conjugation and other things to make it actually semi-believable
12:23 < durka42> do you mean jbofi'e?
12:24 < ldlework> durka42: no idea, I just remember when I was making a new dictionary, robin's biggest critique of my effort was that I wouldn't have a glosser like the one that jbovlaste has
12:24 < durka42> I was not aware that jbovlaste has a glosser...
12:24 < ldlework> I might be wrong, but this is what I remember.
12:24 < durka42> and it seems like the source of word glosses should be the most pluggable part of a glosser
12:24 < Ilmen> The most advanced Lojban->English glosser is that embedded in Jbofihe
12:24 < durka42> ie
12:25 < Ilmen> which is a C program which hasn't been updated for years
12:25 < ldlework> Okay maybe we could grow a new dictionary then
12:26 < ldlework> The one I was trying to build maybe was too sophisticated..
12:26 < ldlework> (to ever complete)
12:26 < durka42> co'o
12:27 < rutytar> so assuming we did forking and such… would we copy all data from jbovalste or just the official data?
12:28 < rutytar> something along the lines of a voting system seems necessary at some point
12:28 < ldlework> Yeah I was building that into mine
12:28 < ldlework> I forget exactly what I was doing
12:28 < ldlework> But we were like...
12:28 < ldlework> building the selma'o and other grammatical details into the schema and design of the dictionary
12:29 < ldlework> it got really complicated
12:29 < ldlework> to the point where I motived a lot of people here to contribute to a graphing of the grammar visually
12:29 < ldlework> I wonder if that's still around anywhere
12:29 < ldlework> Ilmen: do you know where the mindmap of the grammar is?
12:29 < ldlework> (does it exist?)
12:29 < Ilmen> lemme see
12:30 < Ilmen> http://mind42.com/mindmap/03d7fb74-986c-4418-bb14-2dfb86d21dbc
12:30 < ldlework> rutytar: when they produced the actual map, I realized what I was doing was impossible for one person to figure out
12:30 < Ilmen> ldlework ^
12:30 < ldlework> Ilmen: ki'e sai
12:30 < ldlework> Ilmen: is this maintained at all?
12:30 < ldlework> everytime I see it, its slightly modified
12:31 < Ilmen> As far as I known, it hasn't been changed
12:31 < ldlework> It didn't have any morphological stuff back in the day
12:31 < Ilmen> but I haven't made any comparison
12:31 < Ilmen> I think I did save a version on my hard disc months ago
12:32 < Ilmen> so if anything changed in the meantime I should be able to see it I guess
12:32 < ldlework> Ilmen: lol its so amazing to look at
12:32 < rutytar> this is just a tree, right?
12:32 < rutytar> is it official?
12:32 < Ilmen> rutytar: not official
12:32 < ldlework> rutytar: it was a group effort over the course of a few days many months ago
12:32 < rutytar> so… excuse my for my ignorance, cause i'm new here
12:33 < rutytar> what is the CLL? do they hang out here?
12:33 < Ilmen> na nabmi
12:33 < rutytar> sorry, not cll
12:33 < rutytar> LLG
12:33 < Ilmen> Well I'm a member of the LLG, and I'm hanging out here right now .u'i
12:34 < rutytar> okay
12:34 < rutytar> so since the cll came out (which i'm currently reading), there have apparently been some changes, from what i hear
12:35 < rutytar> so, are those changes officially ratified in any way? or are they just community decisions?
12:35 < ldlework> rutytar: xorlo is official
12:35 < Ilmen> There have been two approved changes, Xorlo and dotside (although I'm not sure to what extand Dotside is official)
12:36 < Ilmen> Dotside is a minor reform, it made necessary to use dots both before and after cmevla words (name words ending on a consonant)
12:37 < rutytar> Ilmen: where are the records of those changes kept?
12:37 < Ilmen> so, the pre-Dotside {la lojban.} becomes {la .lojban.} under Dotside
12:37 < Ilmen> so that's not a big change
12:38 < Ilmen> Before Dotside, you couldn't have a cmevla name beginning with "la-" or "doi-" or such
12:38 < Ilmen> if I recall correctly
12:39 < ldlework> I don't see most people utilize it in their conversational text
12:39 < Ilmen> Now, with dotside, {la .lalalas.} is a perfectly valid name
12:39 < rutytar> Ilmen: so how would i know about that change?
12:39 < Ilmen> Dots are not mandatory in writting if you use spaces; however they must be pronounced in spoken Lojban
12:39 < rutytar> it isn't on http://lojban.github.io/cll/, right?
12:40 < ldlework> I still have no idea how to pronounce glottal stops
12:40 < Ilmen> rutytar: The CLL is currently in the process of being updated, but it's a slow task
12:40 < ldlework> And I doubt that most people need spoken stops for comprehension in conversational lojban
12:40 < ldlework> Maybe AI machines
12:40 < Ilmen> ldlework: you can pronounce dots as short pauses
12:41 < Ilmen> or as a glottal stop, for the one that know how to utter it
12:41 < Ilmen> *ones
12:41 < rutytar> aren't there a lot of changes which are widely adopted in the community but not official? (not one of the two things you just listed)
12:41 < Ilmen> (glottal stops do exist in English, for example the word "button" is often pronounced "bʌ.n"
12:42 < Ilmen> with a glottal stop instead ot the -tt-)
12:43 < Ilmen> rutytar: there are a number of things that changed in actual Lojban usage, but those are not big changes, it's more on the semantic level
12:44 < Ilmen> the Lojban description task committe (the BPFK) should eventually document the current usage and possibly update the CLL accordingly
12:45 < rutytar> hm...
12:45 < rutytar> within this community, is there any effort to document the changes in a non-official sense?
12:46 < rutytar> cause on jbovlaste there seems to be a lot of mabla user additions
12:46 < Ilmen> rutytar: a random example is that the meaning of "ka" has changed a little since the CLL, so now it's common to see "ka" used when by the past "nu" would have been used instead
12:48 < ldlework> even though nu is still legal and sensibile
12:48 <@xalbo> I'm not even sure {ka} has changed since CLL, it's that {ka} changed just before CLL, and the community has slowly been catching up with the consequences of it.
12:48 < ldlework> ka makes a bit more sense and is more flexible
12:49 < rutytar> do you think there'd be any interest in a community group to keep track of these kind of changes?
12:50 < Ilmen> There's the BPFK, whose purpose is documenting Lojban usage and change, and producing change proposals if needed
12:51 < ldlework> Ilmen: is there a write up of what the results of the LLG AGM was?
12:51 < Ilmen> But it's going very slowly as it's a volunteering work
12:52 < Ilmen> ldlework: As far as I know the minutes of the meeting haven't been published yet, although I may be wrong
12:52 < ldlework> Ilmen: is it over?
12:54 < Ilmen> The member meeting is over, but after it there is the Board directors meeting, to which I haven't access
12:54 < Ilmen> it might not be over yet
12:54 < rutytar> Ilmen: are these meetings over internet?
12:54 < Ilmen> They take place on private mailing lists
12:55 < Ilmen> so yes, via Internet
12:56 < Ilmen> But it's mostly about official projects management and money management (approving on the use of the money from the selling of the CLL books, which will be used to print the new version of the CLL)
12:56 < Ilmen> so not very fancy stuff
12:57 < Ilmen> For grammar and usage problems and question, there is the BPFK list, which is open to everyone
13:00 < rlpowell> ldlework: It wasn't a critique as such.  I just have a vision of a computationally awesome dictionary + glosser thingy, that's all.
13:00 < rlpowell> That doesn't mean what you had in mind was *bad*.
13:00 < ldlework> rlpowell: I didn't mean it that way either
13:00 < rlpowell> k.
13:00 < ldlework> platonic positively constructive critique if anything ;)
13:01 < rutytar> the thing is, on using git it's easy to keep track of who is making what changes
13:01 < ldlework> rutytar: yes, but then hard to query and so on
13:01 < ldlework> we'd need a new frontend that was sourced from git
13:06 < rutytar> ldlework: i think i'd like to give it a shot
13:06 < rutytar> but i'm not sure how i'd get what i need to start off, the word list and so on
13:07 < rutytar> the stuff on the wiki seems outdated, and i'm not sure what's official and what's not
13:08 < ldlework> rutytar: dumping jbovlaste to xml
13:08 < rutytar> you mean this? http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/export/xml-export.html
13:08 < ldlework> right
13:09 < rutytar> is that it?
13:09 < Ilmen> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/  -- an up to date frontend to the jbovlaste English dump
13:10 < Ilmen> (jbovlaste is the online lexical database, on which words and definitions are entered/edited/etc)
13:10 < rutytar> Ilmen: doesn't handle undefined lujvo like http://vlasisku.lojban.org/
13:10 < Ilmen> the IRC bots also use those jbovlaste dumps
13:10 < Ilmen> valsi: tarci
13:10 < Ilmen> en: tarci
13:10 < mensi> tarci = x1 is a star/sun with stellar properties x2. |>>> See also solri, tsani. |>>>
13:10 < mensi> officialdata
13:10 < Ilmen> es:tarci
13:11 < Ilmen> es: tarci
13:11 < mensi> tarci = x1 es una estrella con propiedades estelares x2
13:11 < mensi> tarci = x1 es una estrella con propiedades estelares x2 |>>> Ver también solri. |>>>
13:11 < mensi> xorxes
13:11 < valsi> tarci = x1 is a star/sun with stellar properties x2.
13:11 < Ilmen> masno za'a
13:12 < Ilmen> en: rutytarci
13:12 < mensi> [< grute tarci ≈ Fruit star] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:12 < mensi> rutytar[6998], grutytar[8008], rutytarci[9037], grutytarci[10047]
13:13 < Ilmen> You can also talk to the dictionary bots in private  (/msg mensi en: ....)
13:13 < rutytar> but sisku doesn't do that, right?
13:13 < ldlework> rutytar: what' your language of choice
13:13 < ldlework> programming wise
13:13 < Ilmen> rutytar: I'm not sure; as for myself I usually use the IRC bots
13:13 < Ilmen> .u'u
13:14 < rutytar> i'm most familiar with C, but i'm a noob, programming wise
13:14 < Ilmen> lujvo: grute tarci
13:14 < mensi> rutytar[6998], grutytar[8008], rutytarci[9037], grutytarci[10047]
13:14 < Ilmen> lujvo: rutytar
13:14 < mensi> [0]
13:14 < Ilmen> en: rutytar
13:14 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:15 < Ilmen> en: rutytarci
13:15 < mensi> [< grute tarci ≈ Fruit star] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:15 < mensi> rutytar[6998], grutytar[8008], rutytarci[9037], grutytarci[10047]
13:15 < Ilmen> this bot gives a gloss for undefined lujvo  ("Fruit star")
13:18 < ldlework> rutytar: so what are you going to write a new front-end in?
13:19 < rutytar> mysql+php+js was the plan
13:19 < ldlework> Is there a word in lojban for ambivalence? :)
13:21 < rutytar> pe'inai
13:23 < ldlework> pe'i cu'i if anything
13:25 < rutytar> i suppose so
13:27 < rutytar> anyway i should probably learn lojban before any of that
13:46 < PrincessBecca> http://www.memrise.com/mem/5533110/the-fanvan-is-full-of-otaku-who-translate-manga-in/
13:48 < selpahi> Haven't looked at the Lojban memrise in a long time
13:48 < mensi> selpahi: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: la rosetas zo'u xu su'o da se zamgu lo ka pilno ry i ju'ocu'i i ta'o mi caku se xajmi
13:48 < mensi> la duolingos i mu'a zoi gy. My pillow doesn't talk .gy. mupli vau oi u'i | 2015-05-20T06:42:12.
13:48 < mensi> 969Z
13:49 < selpahi> There is no "most common brivla" deck.
14:07 < selpahi> I'm writing a blog post.
14:15 < Ilmen> .i'e ciska
14:19 < durka42> ma se blogo
14:20 < selpahi> lo cnino gadri
14:20 < durka42> ua
14:20 < durka42> ma cnino gadri .u'i
14:20 < durka42> zo po xu
14:20 < selpahi> na go'i
14:20 < durka42> zo ri'oi sei smadi
14:20 < selpahi> .i xu zo po gadri
14:21 < selpahi> .i mi na pilno zo ri'oi .i zo ri'oi xa'o zasti .i mi casnu lo cnino
14:21 < durka42> je'e .i mi co'u smadi
14:21 < durka42> zo po cu co'e lo'u lo nu le'u la .cekitaujaus.
14:21 < durka42> ti'e
14:21 < selpahi> go'i .i ku'i xu gadri
14:21 < durka42> jbo: gadri
14:22 < durka42> vlaste: gadri
14:22 < vlaste> gadri = x1 is an article/descriptor labelling description x2 (text) in language x3 with semantics x4.
14:22 < mensi> 21 da se tolcri: sumgadri, la, la'e, lai, la'i, lai'e, le, le'e, lei, le'i, li, lo, lo'e, loi, lo'i, lu'a, lu'e, lu'i,
14:22 < mensi> lu'o, tu'a, vu'i
14:22 < durka42> xu zo po gadri lo bridi fo lo sumti
14:23 < selpahi> sa'e nai go'i
14:23 < selpahi> la'a
14:30 < Ilmen> lo simsa be zo ri'oi zo'u mi sanji lo nu lo so'o jbopre na pilno ki'u po'o lo nu clani .i ku'i sarcu fa lo nu jarco lo nu plixau cafne kei kei pu lo nu jdice lo du'u finti lo tormau
14:31 < Ilmen> .i ja'o pe'i .e'i lo nu clani na toldarsygau
14:31 < Ilmen> .i lo nu co'a cafne cu .a'o rinka lo nu co'a tordu
14:31 < Ilmen> .i lo nu tolcafne cu ba'a rinka lo nu clani stodi
14:31 < durka42> ie
14:32 < selpahi> (to lo'u na pilno ki'u le'u toi) .i ie zo ri'oi plixau .i ku'i fegli mi fa lo tarmi .i mi cizra ie
14:32 < selpahi> .i mi na'e racli la'a tolnei ro cipma'o poi se tarmi lo cipra tarmi
14:33 < durka42> do na cizra .i fegli vlatai .u'i
14:33 < selpahi> ue .u'i
14:33 < selpahi> ki'e zo'o
14:33 < Ilmen> ku'i jetnu fa lo nu naku lo prenu cu pilno ki'u lo nu clani
14:33 < Ilmen> .u'i
14:33 < selpahi> ta'i ma cusku zoi gy. Xbox .gy
14:34 < durka42> xu do ba'urtadji retpei
14:34 < selpahi> .i pe'i pei cmevla
14:34 < selpahi> na go'i
14:34 < selpahi> .i fanva preti
14:34 < durka42> eksyboksi
14:34 < Ilmen> kelsamiksiboksi
14:34 < Ilmen> zo'o
14:34 < selpahi> zo'o xy zei tanxe
14:36 < durka42> zo'onai xy zei kelskami
14:37 < selpahi> nandu preti .i kulnu preti .i da'i lo jbobau ja jbogu'e finti be lo simsa kelskami  cu te cmene ri ma
14:38 < selpahi> .i ji'a xu la jbogu'e cu fanva ro na'e jbogu'e se finti cmene lo jbobau
14:38 < durka42> la'a nai .i du'e
14:39 < selpahi> .i xu la .makydonaldz. cu pilno lo drata cmene tu'a lo jbogu'e zvati gusta
14:39 < selpahi> .i cinri mi
14:39 < selpahi> .i mi na djuno lo du'u ma kau danfu
14:40 < durka42> xu my fanva lo vo'a cmene lo jungo mu'a
14:40 < korbynde> translitera
14:49 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
14:49 < selpahi> co'o
15:36 < durka42> xru
15:36 < selpahi> guaspi:xru
15:37 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
15:37 < selpahi> guaspi:pig
15:37 < mensi> pory = X1 is a pig
15:39 < durka42> guaspi:return
15:39 < mensi> cir = X1 returns to X2: from X3: via X4:
15:52 < durka42> oi mi fengytce ro bradi sei kibjasyselkei
15:52 < durka42> y
15:52 < durka42> fengytce => fengygau
16:30  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: @MrShikaki @a_man_in_yellow @_icze4r Try saying it in Lojban. You can attach {zo'o} to anything for "humourously", or the proposed {xo'o}. [http://bit.ly/1EkDKRQ]
16:31 < durka42> houmourousloy
17:38 < durka42> lo dotybau zo'u ma te frica zo'oi isst zo'oi ist
17:39 < durka42> mi se jetmlu lo du'u so'i da ka'e se cfipu
17:43 < selpahi> no da sance te frica
17:43 < selpahi> .i ka'e .ambigu .i ku'i na cafne
17:50 < durka42> je'e
17:51 < selpahi> .i lo .englicybau cu zmadytce lo doitco lo ka xo kau da snadunvla
17:52 < durka42> jetnu sai
17:54 < durka42> la .duuolingos. cu curmi so'i da lo voksa preti .i la'a lo mi ba'urtadji cu malmabla
17:55 < selpahi> la'a io .i zo'o ru'e ko senci .i ti'e la .rosetas. rokci cu se mansa lo nu senci
17:56 < durka42> .u'i .i kafke simlu zmadu
17:56 < durka42> sa'e zo'oi Sprachen kafke simlu
17:57 < selpahi> ti'e simlu fi lo merko
17:57 < durka42> lo sance be me'o ry cu cizra lo'e merko
17:57 < selpahi> .i je'u pei do klama lo dotygu'e ba za lo masti be li re
17:57 < durka42> ja'ai
17:57 < durka42> xu do jibni la .frankfurt. ja la .tubingen.
17:58 < selpahi> .ai pei do pilno su'o drata be la .duuolingos.
17:58 < selpahi> .i mi na zvajbi
17:58 < durka42> ma xagmau
17:58 < selpahi> .i lo nu klama fy cu cacra li ji'i xa
17:58 < durka42> ba'asai so'e penmi be mi cu se .englicybau
17:58 < selpahi> va'o lo nu sorpeka
17:58 < durka42> .oi so'i cacra
17:58 < selpahi> .oi di'u
17:59 < durka42> mi platu lo nu renkla
17:59 < durka42> renkla T boi F
17:59 < selpahi> xamgu .i ku'i kargymau
17:59 < selpahi> .i sutra ku'i
18:00 < durka42> ba'a .a'o lo ckule cu pleji piso'e lo ve pleji
18:00 < selpahi> zanfu'a do
18:00 < selpahi> .i ta'o nai sa'u mi kucli lo du'u xu kau do .aidji
18:00 < selpahi> .i ju'o cu'i la .duuolingos. do mansa
18:01 < durka42> .ei mi renvi tu'a la .frankfurt. lo djedi be li ci secau lo se sabji be lo ckule vau .u'i
18:01 < selpahi> .i ju'o tu'a lo dotybau na sarcu lo nu tavla lo prenu
18:01 < durka42> ie
18:01 < selpahi> .i ja'o do va'o lo nu tadni te zu'e tu'a lo nu ze'i zvati cu na nitcu lo ka certu mutce
18:01 < durka42> mi .aidji lo ka na mulno se cfipu lo bangu
18:02 < durka42> go'e
18:02 < durka42> .ai mi ka'e cusku lu ko klacpe lo mikce li'u je lu bu'u ma lumku'a li'u
18:03 < selpahi> xu dy. ctuca fo lo simsa jufra
18:03 < durka42> za'o na go'i
18:03 < durka42> xa'o ctuca fo lo grute je lo danlu je lo si'o citka
18:04 < selpahi> ja'o do ka'e renvi bu'u lo cicricfoi ne lo dotygu'e
18:04 < durka42> .u'i
18:04 < durka42> .a'o lo trene na tsuku lo cicricfoi
18:06 < durka42> xu lo'e dotco cu nelci lo nu lo nonju'o merko cu troci tu'a lo dotybau .i ti'e lo'e fraso mu'a su'oroi bangu tolcumla
18:06 < selpahi> ti'e sai lo fraso na'o kusru
18:06 < selpahi> lo troci
18:06 < selpahi> .i lo dotco na go'i
18:07 < durka42> ui
18:08 < selpahi> .i li'a ro gugde cu poi'i bu'u ke'a ge su'o da kusru gi su'o da xendo
18:09 < durka42> li'a ie
18:09 < selpahi> .i .a'u do cu'e zvati la .xauai'is.
18:09 < durka42> do tavla lo munje ji la kibjasyselkei
18:09 < selpahi> je nai
18:09 < durka42> nu'o
18:09 < _mukti_> coi la selpa'i .e la durkavore
18:09 < durka42> coi
18:09 < selpahi> coi la mukti
18:10 < durka42> mi mo'i vu'a klama pa'onai la .kaliforniias.
18:11 < durka42> lo'u pa'onai le'u ki'apei
18:11 < selpahi> la'a jimpe .i ku'i zo mo'i zo'u ...
18:12 < durka42> va'i lo nu mi pu mo'i vu'a klama cu se fanmo la .kaliforniias.
18:12 < selpahi> ju'o cu'i zo jimte
18:12 < durka42> ie
18:12 < durka42> mi pu mo'i vu'a klama ji'e la .kaliforniias.
18:13 < selpahi> lo jungo cu stici do
18:13 < durka42> doi cmavrbai xebni zo'o
18:13 < durka42> ju'o cu'i mi vofli ga'u la .atlantik. xamsi .i ja'o stuna
18:14 < selpahi> ju'o cu'i pei .i xu do na djuno
18:15 < durka42> mi sruma
18:15 < selpahi> .i ku'i do ba'e pu'i vofli
18:15 < selpahi> .i ma fatci
18:15 < durka42> go'i
18:15 < durka42> mi ca kibro catlu
18:15 < selpahi> ue do na djuno
18:15 < durka42> http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AWE700
18:15 < durka42> .atlantik.
18:15 < durka42> sunkla
18:16 < selpahi> mi tavla fi lo jungo
18:16 < selpahi> .i li'a klama fo lo stuna fe lo dotygu'e
18:16 < _mukti_> ua
18:17 < _mukti_> .i xu do klama lo frasygu'e doi la durkavore
18:17 < durka42> ua ua
18:17 < durka42> mi pu vofli ga'u la panpi xamsi seka'a lo jugygu'e
18:18 < selpahi> ue nai
18:18 < durka42> mi ba klama lo dotygu'e jenai lo fasygu'e
18:18 < durka42> doi mukti
18:18 < _mukti_> ua
18:18 < _mukti_> FRA = Frankfurt
18:18 < durka42> ie
18:18 < _mukti_> li'a
18:18 < durka42> ma .etmolo
18:18 < durka42> .ety Frankfurt
18:19 < phenny> Can't find the etymology for "Frankfurt". Try http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=Frankfurt
18:19 < durka42> ue la laldo .fen. cu cikna
18:21 < durka42> zo .frankfurt. zo'u lo caxno rirxe bo pagbu pe lai .frank.
18:23 < selpahi> ie
18:23 < selpahi> .i .oi mi fliba lo ka finti lo pa moi be jufra pe lo mi ca'o se ciska
18:23 < selpahi> ne lo kibykarni
18:23 < selpahi> .i lo drata pagbu cu mulno
18:23 < durka42> ko ciska lo remoi bi'o lo romoi jebabo lo pamoi
18:23 < selpahi> .i be lo jufra
18:23 < durka42> ua
18:23 < selpahi> .i ro na pa moi cu mulno
18:24 < durka42> oi dai
18:30 < selpahi> .u'a su'o da sidbo
18:35 < saintcajetan> is anyone here trying to make some universal translator tool with lojban as the way to have machine to machine tralsnation that is decent?
18:35 < saintcajetan> or knows someone who is working towards that goal.
18:36 < saintcajetan> I would definitely take the time to learn Lojban, if I knew that at some point x in the future my writings can be translated easily to other languages much better then what Google currently offers.
18:37 < _mukti_> There's an old glossing tool
18:39 < durka42> not sure anyone is currently working on machine translation
18:39 < _mukti_> http://www.lojban.org/jboski/
19:13 < saintcajetan> it doesn't seem to be theoretically possible
19:20 < akmnlrse> "in selma'o LO" .i mi piksku no da pe sa .i dei .olkai lo ka pinka fi mi fe di'u
19:23 < durka42> sa'ei uat
19:23 < akmnlrse> le blogysle ba'o co'a gubni
19:23 < akmnlrse> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/whichwhat-a-new-gadri
19:24 < durka42> ua
19:27 < durka42> zo ge gadri .i'e sai .u'i
19:28 < akmnlrse> da'i mi cuxna zo gi'e .i mi (to za'o xu toi) na co'u nelci lo slaka pa mei ke prupei terjoma
19:28 < akmnlrse> .i lo smuni zo'u mi si'a .i'ersainmo
19:33 < durka42> mi gaje zanru gi na jimpe lo nabmi mupli
19:33 < durka42> ta'o ru'e mi pu pilno zo moi tu'a zo'oi which
19:34 < akmnlrse> lo nabmi mupli zo'u lo jai se spusku na bi'ai .olkai lo ka se zilbri .i ka'e se menre po'o
19:36 < akmnlrse> (to ka'e ku mi troci co zgipli gi'e lo melbi ja cu tadni lo cnino gi'a lo certu ja cu voi lo mi birka cu porpi gi'o lo tinsa kei ja cu jbopli gi'u zo besto ja cu gi'i frodo toi)
19:37 < durka42> oi
19:37 < akmnlrse> .u'u
19:40 < akmnlrse> (to de'u zo'u zo po'o na drani .i ma ja'a go'i toi)
19:40 < durka42> mi piksku fo lo se blogo
19:41 < akmnlrse> za'a
19:42 < rutytar> coi
19:42 < akmnlrse> .i ka'e spuda la 5 moi tu'a lu lo ro pu ja ca ja ba zasti li'u
19:42 < akmnlrse> coi
19:42 < akmnlrse> .i je'u lo tai nu spuda cu dunli lo nu spuda fi tu'a lu mi remna li'u fe tu'a lu do mo li'u
19:42 < akmnlrse> .i ku'i ja'a logji se curmi
19:43 < durka42> coi
19:43 < durka42> .u'i je'e ru'e
19:45 < durka42> ni'i ma ka'e spuda le 5 moi lu bu
19:45 < durka42> mi za'o na jimpe
19:45 < durka42> su'o pu ja ca ja ba zasti na taxfu
19:46 < akmnlrse> go'i
19:46 < akmnlrse> .i ku'i cpedu tu'a lo ba'ei se menre be lo ge taxfu gi se cuxna
19:48 < durka42> ie
19:48 < durka42> sedycro pe'a pe'anai
19:48 < akmnlrse> iepsi
19:49 < durka42> mi jmidji ju jimpe
19:50 < durka42> va'i mi ka'e spuda fi ro da va'o lo nu mi jinvi lo du do jinvi lo du da taxfu
19:50 < durka42> xu
19:52 < akmnlrse> va'i toi'e sa'e nai funsi lo du'u zo mai jai ke xorlysu'i ji kau dzasu'i
19:52 < akmnlrse> .i lo xorlysu'i zo'u lu ko'a poi co'e li'u dunli lu lo voi me ko'a je cu co'e li'u
19:52 < akmnlrse> vau .i'u dai
19:53 < akmnlrse> s/zo mai/zo ma/
19:53 < durka42> mi na djuno fi lo na xorlo
19:55 < durka42> xu zo funsi cu panra lo fancu lo makfa
19:55 < durka42> xu zo funsi cu panra zo fancu lo makfa
19:55 < akmnlrse> lo na xorlo zo'u zo da je lo lunbe zilkancu sumti vu'o po'o tai tarti
19:55 < akmnlrse> .i zo funsi dunli lo me la .xorxes. moi be zo fancu
19:55 < akmnlrse> vau ba'a nai
19:57 < akmnlrse> .i .ei mi ze'a lo cacra xadba na jundi
19:58 < durka42> mi bazi sipnybi .i ja'a sedycro .oi ro'o .i ja'o co'o
20:30 < zipcpi> Hm interesting; I find I use {le} a lot more often on Tatoeba. But maybe it's pre-xorlo/malglixlu influence. I do assume that even under xorlo, while {lo} introduces an item into the universe of discourse, {le} refers to something already in it
20:32 < zipcpi> Hence {le} might be less used in conversations like on the IRC because our statements tend to be short
20:34 < akmnlrse> Here bare quantifiers tend to be used to introduce something into the UD
20:34 < zipcpi> The effect is that {lo nu} is more often correct than {le nu} though, despite the habit in some older materials
20:36 < zipcpi> Well take for example, "Everyone is drunk", which I just translated in Tatoeba
20:37 < zipcpi> I felt that "ro [lo] prenu cu xalbebna" is wrong because it would mean "Everything that is a person is drunk"?
20:37 < akmnlrse> "ro lo prenu" and "ro prenu" are distinct again since 2011 or so
20:38 < durka42> ro da poi me lo prenu / ro prenu
20:38 < durka42> er / ro da poi prenu
20:38 < zipcpi> Hm interesting... but yeah I'm not too familiar with the specifics of xorlo
20:38 < akmnlrse> and pe'i "ro lo prenu" would be enough for that sentence
20:38 < zipcpi> Ah so pa prenu = pa da poi prenu
20:38 < durka42> yes
20:39 < zipcpi> While ro lo prenu won't be ro da poi prenu
20:39 < akmnlrse> ro da poi me lo prenu, for whichever value of lo prenu you have
20:39  * zipcpi nods
20:42 < zipcpi> ro prenu cu xalbebna = All people are drunk (similar to "all men are mortal")
20:42 < zipcpi> ro le prenu cu xalbebna = All the people are drunk (all the people already introduced in the discourse is drunk)
20:42 < akmnlrse> .i lo na'e xorlo zo lo zo le zo'u mi so'o roi xoi cipra cu tavla bau lo lejbo .i lifri lo nu ge ca da lu le nu lu'u mapti gi ge ca da lu lo nu li'u mapti gi ca da se jetmlu lo du'u no lo re zo'e cu mapti kei gi'e pilno lu tu'o nu li'u
20:42 < akmnlrse> ie
20:43 < akmnlrse> s/lu'u/li'u/
20:44 < akmnlrse> .y .i spofu mulno
20:44 < akmnlrse> su .i lo na'e xorlo zo lo zo le zo'u mi so'o roi xoi cipra cu tavla bau lo lejbo .i ge lifri ge lo nu ca da lu le nu li'u mapti gi ca da lu lo nu li'u mapti gi ca da se jetmlu lo du'u no lo re zo'e cu mapti kei gi'e pilno lu tu'o nu li'u
20:46 < akmnlrse> .i sa'e sei mupli le nu mi citka lo cersai cu temjbi le cabna .i je mi na ganse lo nu lo bakni cu vofli .i je tu'o nu lo skami cu spofu cu cafne
20:49 < zipcpi> re lo mu prenu cu xalbebna = Two, out of the five people I am introducing to the discourse, is drunk
20:50 < zipcpi> How do you say "two out of five people are drunk" in the statistical sense?
20:51 < zipcpi> re fi'u mu loi prenu ?
20:51 < zipcpi> This really needs to be collated somewhere. CLL is pre-xorlo
20:52 < durka42> ko catlu lo BPFK pagbu
20:53 < akmnlrse> the {loi} version makes sense but isn't perfect pe'i
20:54 < akmnlrse> maybe a {na'o} would bring it closer, idk
20:55 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/How_to_use_xorlo
20:55 < zipcpi> Doesn't say anything about loi
20:56 < akmnlrse> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_gadri
20:57 < zipcpi> They still haven't updated the JVS definitions have they?
20:57 < zipcpi> It's still all the veridicality stuff
20:57 < akmnlrse> na go'e .i xoi cizra ningau lo me zo mabla moi je nai lo me zo lo moi
20:58 < akmnlrse> ua
20:58 < akmnlrse> t
20:58 < akmnlrse> xoi cizra CU
21:04 < durka42> the officialdata definitions have never been updated
21:05 < zipcpi> lol I've actually gone and changed some of them... added some gloss words, refactored some particularly problematic definitions like {fange}
21:06 < zipcpi> Putting "alien" first and making the only gloss word "alien" is just asking for malglixlu
21:06 < zipcpi> Sure English "alien" could mean "foreign". But without context, most people think of space aliens
21:07 < durka42> what? and you didn't get smitten by hellfire and brimstone??
21:07 < durka42> :D
21:07 < zipcpi> I probably angered the jbocei
21:11 < akmnlrse> (to zo bridi mo .i ge lo catni velcki be ri gi lo xe fanva cu frica lo me la gimste moi toi)
21:41 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/malglixlu
23:41 < gleki> looks like az'es account on Twitter is removed
23:51  * nuzba @shukil026: Lojban [http://bit.ly/1IQLQIi]
--- Day changed Thu May 21 2015
00:07 < gleki> I renamed English sutsis to sursis.
00:14 < niek> coi ro do
00:14 < gleki> coi
00:14 < niek> coi la gleki
00:16 < niek> mi ba citka lo cersai .i ji'a mi ba pinxe lo narju jisra
00:16 < niek> ui
00:17 < gleki> lo najnimre xu mokau
00:18 < niek> go'i
00:19 < gleki> oi do citka la fanza najnimre
00:21 < niek> u'i na go'i
00:22 < niek> ni'o xu la jboski cu spofu .i pe'a spoja ca lo nu fanva zo pa
00:22 < gleki> ko troci tu'a lu pa boi li'u
00:25 < niek> uanai snada .i cizra
00:28 < gleki> proga cinki
00:28 < gleki> i cfila va'i
02:12 < zipcpi> Hmmm... does Tatoeba choke on words with apostrophes?
02:12 < zipcpi> That is quite unfortunate for Lojban
02:12 < zipcpi> *Tatoeba search
02:16 < gleki> how?
02:17 < zipcpi> I dunno. But when I searched for toi'e it returned a French sentence with toi
02:18 < gleki> maybe vbecause there is no sentence with it in the db yet?
02:18 < zipcpi> I just added one
02:19 < zipcpi> It might not be indexed immediately though
02:19 < gleki> yes
02:19 < gleki> http://tatoeba.org/jbo/sentences/search?query=co%27o&from=und&to=und
02:19 < zipcpi> je'e
02:20 < zipcpi> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4210415
02:22 < gleki> so toi'e doesn't attach to ro'o only?
02:22 < gleki> en: toi'e
02:22 < mensi> toi'e = [TOIhE] start UI-applicative metalinguistic UI-parenthetical |>>> Presently (without this word), there is no "
02:22 < mensi> official" way to apply a UI cmavo to another (instead, they merely express simultaneous emotions pertaining to the
02:22 < mensi> relevant construct). This word begins a parenthetical which can contain UI cmavo and applies these cmavo as a string of
02:22 < mensi> UI to the immediately previous UI cmavo metalinguistically (as if the external UI are any other type of word which can
02:22 < mensi> be acted upon by UI). An omitted UI (external or internal) in this case is equivalent to ge'e. Since the produced
02:22 < mensi> parenthetical functions as UI, nested or subsequent such parentheticals operate on it as it operates on external UI
02:22 < mensi> cmavo....
02:22 < mensi> [mo'u se katna] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/toi'e
02:22 < zipcpi> Hmm... that one I'm not too sure of
02:23 < zipcpi> Will probably need to ask Curtis
02:25 < zipcpi> But yeah this kind of thing is why I invented ji'au
02:26 < zipcpi> I mean if you wanted to be super clear you'd use fu'e... fu'o, but in practice people don't specify their emotions that way
02:26 < gleki> fu'e? how?
02:28 < zipcpi> {fu'e iuro'o toi'e uinai fu'o} vs {iu fu'e ro'o toi'e uinai fu'o}? But this reveals another problem; it is now ambiguous whether ro'o is meant to attach to the fu'e group
02:34 < zipcpi> Or maybe it's {fu'e iuro'o fu'o uinai} vs {iu fu'e ro'o fu'o uinai}
02:35 < zipcpi> But yeah that still runs into potential ambiguity since I presume attitudinals can attach to either fu'e or fu'o
02:36 < gleki> im not sure {iu fu'e} makes fu'e a modifier of {iu}
02:37 < zipcpi> I think it's the other way around
02:37 < zipcpi> Makes more sense because that's how attitudinal attachment work for every other thing
02:37 < gleki> iu toi'e ro'o toi'e uinai
02:37 < zipcpi> Hm that could work
02:37 < gleki> although im not sure how this last {nai} works
02:37 < gleki> what is the priority?
02:37 < gleki> does nai bound more tightly than toi'e?
02:37 < zipcpi> toi'e has its own famyma'o, toi'o
02:38 < zipcpi> I've actually moved i'au and ji'au into TOIhE as well
02:38 < gleki> a lot of things need to be explained here
02:38 < gleki> btw i made another translation of your sentence
02:39 < zipcpi> Cool
02:40 < zipcpi> But yes, nai would bind more tightly, because toi'e hasn't been closed with toi'o
02:40 < zipcpi> I presume toi'o is an elidable terminator to be automatically inserted when the UI-clause ends
02:43 < gleki> these priorities need to be explained
02:43 < zipcpi> toi'e ... toi'o are their own selma'o
02:44 < gleki> i think you should put exlainigng priorities onto your todo list
02:44 < zipcpi> Hmm... yeah but I would have to work with Curtis on that since he invented toi'e
02:45 < zipcpi> Not sure how to get a hold of him other than on JVS
02:45 < gleki> he is on facebook and twitter
03:16 < zipcpi> So {va'e} can be used for "fuzzy logic" truth-values
03:17 < zipcpi> si'au go'i
03:17 < gleki> yes, or {jei}
03:18 < zipcpi> jei is under NU, so would work differently... something like {li pimu cu jei lo kabri cu culno}
03:23 < Zyxl> Did someone want me earlier?
03:24 < zipcpi> coi .zyxl.
03:25 < Zyxl> coi do
03:35 < zipcpi> {la .tato'ebas. zo'u} How do I tag sentences?
03:40 < zipcpi> Hmm... what about the audio? Though I'm not confident I should be speaking the English sentences, since I have a noticeable accent
03:42  * nuzba @NooLearn: Lojban pre-alpha test starts at 12:30GMT today    http://www.noolearn.2dservers.net/    Send Skype invite to user 'brian.wernham' http://t.co/Y16YZVWpj4 [http://bit.ly/1cPLJ3x]
03:43 < zipcpi> ua ue
03:43 < Ilmen> wa
03:48 < gleki> There is no way to tag sentences unless you add probably around ~1000 and send them a request to become an advanced contrubitor
03:48 < zipcpi> Do we know who the teacher is?
03:48 < zipcpi> Brian Wernham
03:49 < Zyxl> What kind of courses are these? Video lecture type courses? Are they open to anyone?
03:50 < gleki> it's an online educational resource.
03:50 < zipcpi> Looks like a very new startup. "Write instructions here" u'i
03:51 < Zyxl> Nice to see the slide numbering starts at 0 :)
03:52 < zipcpi> Wait selma'o is separate for each language definition? That's kinda silly
03:52 < Ilmen> The problem is that there may be different meaning proposals with different meanings
03:52 < zipcpi> Yeah
03:53 < Ilmen> I think Gleki suggested to sort definitions by meaning/proposal, each group with a single selmaho
03:53 < Ilmen> so that traductions of each meaning are grouped together etc
03:54 < zipcpi> Well I'm afraid of touching the other languages. We all know what happened the last time I tried to touch something with Unicode
03:54 < gleki> i havent yet analyzed how the database is built and how it needs to be expanded in a backward compatible way
03:55 < gleki> I only talked to mukti that an API, enriching db model and nothing else is required to reach JVS 2.0
03:57  * nuzba @NooLearn: Samci'ejudr Lojban pre-alpha kamjunmre jbovlaste 12:30GMT cabdei    http://www.noolearn.2dservers.net/    Benji Skype 'brian.wernham' http://t.co/Ler1s4I46g [http://bit.ly/1cPMnhp]
03:58 < gleki> hm, not sure I fully understand how this course gonna work
04:44 < zipcpi> exp: +s artmozaiko
04:44 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "a" found.
04:45 < zipcpi> Hmm why is this banned?
04:45 < zipcpi> I don't see any CGV
04:45 < zipcpi> exp: +s atmozaiko
04:45 < mensi> (CU [Z:atmozaiko VAU])
04:46 < gleki> syllabification in short
04:47 < zipcpi> Consonant triplets?
04:47 < zipcpi> Must be C(CC) and not CC/C iirc
04:47 < zipcpi> Where (CC) is an allowed initial consonant pair
04:50 < zipcpi> ... crap xisyjbesla means to baptize
04:50 < zipcpi> I always assumed it meant Christmas
04:50 < zipcpi> Will need a new word
04:50 < zipcpi> ... baptize has 0 votes though
04:51 < zipcpi> Yeah I'm deprecating that. Baptism isn't just performed at birth (and denominations differ on that) after all
04:52 < gleki> so actually it's their first course.
04:53 < gleki> i mean noolearn
04:54 < zipcpi> Gonna write a new definition
04:58 < zipcpi> Though maybe xisyjbedei is better for the holiday itself
04:59 < zipcpi> I'd rather not go with xisyjbenunsla
05:00 < zipcpi> Or perhaps a zi'evla would be better
05:01 < zipcpi> exp: +s xrismasa
05:01 < mensi> (CU [L:xrismasa VAU])
05:01 < zipcpi> exp: +s xismasa
05:01 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [oO], [uU] or [yY] but "i" found.
05:02 < zipcpi> No that's a tosmabru
05:03 < zipcpi> I know jvojva is not a physical law but I don't like just flipping place structures around without good reason
05:04 < zipcpi> Also the word is already pretty ugly
05:04 < zipcpi> pe'i
05:05 < zipcpi> exp: +s xrisomasa
05:06 < mensi> (CU [Z:xrisomasa VAU])
05:06 < zipcpi> Guess that will have to do
05:08 < omni___> zipcpi: Outside of zifcme, syllable codas consist of at most one consonant.
05:08 < zipcpi> Right
05:09 < zipcpi> So none of that .trutixn. nonsense
05:10 < zipcpi> Well... that's a cmevla, so I suppose that is technically allowed
05:10 < gleki> omni___: Ilmen la braian e mi ca nolcarmi casnu bu'u la skaipe
05:10 < gleki> omni___: Ilmen: la braian e mi ca nolcarmi casnu bu'u la skaipe
05:10 < Ilmen> je'e
05:11 < Ilmen> .ai mi nolcarmi jundi
05:11 < omni___> mi ka'e jundi .i ku'i xu sarcu fa lo nu vokta'a
05:11 < Ilmen> xu vokta'a
05:12 < Ilmen> za'a cista'a
05:12 < Ilmen> seju ciskyta'a
05:12 < gleki> mi'a na vokta'a
05:13 < gleki> i je'u ba nandu fa lo ka finti lo ctufau co'e
05:13 < gleki> i mi na birti lo nu xaku plixau fa lo nu participe
05:13 < gleki> i xu frica la anki i mi na birti
05:13 < omni___> xu do ca jimpe lo du'u ma kau tarmi lo ctuka'u
05:16 < gleki> na[3~m mulno jimpe
05:17 < nooLearn> Samci'ejudr Lojban pre-alpha kamjunmre jbovlaste 12:30GMT cabdei
05:17 < nooLearn> http://www.noolearn.2dservers.net/
05:17 < nooLearn> Benji Skype 'brian.wernham'
05:21 < gleki> u'i lo pilno be la fircku cu kucli tu'a lo xe fanva be zo'oi star poi tarmi
05:22 < zipcpi> mi stidi tu'a zo .aste
05:22 < gleki> e'a do jmina fi JVS
05:22 < gleki> i ji'a ma xe fanva zo'oi polyhedron
05:23 < gleki> i la xorxes na djica lo nu lo kubli ka'e me'oi polyhedron
05:23 < gleki> jbo: kubli
05:23 < mensi> kubli = x1 se sefta xa kurfa noi ro ke'a cu sraji ro lamji sefta |>>> sefta; kurfa; sraji; lamji |>>>
05:23 < mensi> xorxes
05:24 < zipcpi> $x_1$ is star-shaped, with $x_2$ (number) points
05:25 < zipcpi> $x_1$ is a star polygon, with $x_2$ (number) points
05:26 < gleki> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/FolFrlYUODg/discussion
05:26 < zipcpi> Yeah I've seen that
05:27 < zipcpi> What is the consensus required to make a new gismu? Perhaps there may be enough reason to
05:27 < zipcpi> VCCV isn't too bad though, if you accept V'y lujvo
05:27 < zipcpi> aste'yfi'e
05:36 < zipcpi> Thing is it's hard to run that old gismu program when most languages don't distinguish the two concepts (and I don't have it anyway)
05:36 < zipcpi> I decided on "aste" because of the association with asterisk
05:37 < zipcpi> Hmm it might be worth looking at some other concepts that we might want to make lujvo of but we're not sure whether it should be a gismu yet
05:37 < zipcpi> Such as refkusi -> efku
05:38 < gleki> okay add aste but aste2 might go to another zi'evla
05:38 < zipcpi> aste2?
05:38 < gleki> x2 of aste
05:39 < zipcpi> Nah, the decision to make it five points is culture-bound
05:39 < zipcpi> I'm basing it on this definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_polygon
05:41 < zipcpi> I think it is important enough for a place, even though I know there is a movement to avoid proliferation of place-structures
05:43 < gleki> who say aste without aste2 has 5 points?
05:43 < gleki> im saying that points can be specified using another word
05:43 < zipcpi> Er, sorry. I just mean that I think the number of points is inherent to the concept
05:44 < gleki> why cant aste mean just "star" in general with an uncertain number of points?
05:44 < zipcpi> It's not like {klama} or {fanva} where it's hard to remember and you might have to end up nulling some of them with zi'o
05:44 < zipcpi> Well it would if you don't specify the number of points
05:45 < zipcpi> ti aste
05:45 < zipcpi> When I say {ti aste} I'm not saying anything about the number of points
05:45 < zipcpi> Only when I say {ti aste li mu} or {ti aste li xa} would it become important
05:45 < zipcpi> That's kinda how place structures work in Lojban
05:48 < gleki> can you immediately count the number of points of a e.g. 21-pointed star?
05:48 < zipcpi> You don't have to specify anything if you don't want to
05:48 < zipcpi> The point is it does have a number of points whether you specify them or not
05:48 < gleki> my question was about splitting it to two words
05:49 < zipcpi> I don't think it needs to. Just like we say {mi klama lo zdani} without specifying x3, x4, or x5
05:49 < gleki> en: kojna
05:49 < gleki> en: konju
05:49 < mensi> kojna = x1 is a corner/point/at-least-3-dimensional [solid] angle [shape/form] in/on x2, of material x3. |>>> Also apex;
05:49 < mensi> a corner exists on three dimensions but need not be limited to points; it suggests a discontinuity in slope in some
05:49 < mensi> direction; i.e. in some planar cross-section.  See also jipno, konju, bliku, fanmo, jganu, krasi. |>>>
05:49 < mensi> officialdata
05:49 < mensi> konju = x1 is a cone [shape/form] of material x2 with vertex x3. |>>> Also ellipse, ellipsoid (= konclupa).  See also
05:49 < mensi> jesni, djine, sovda, kojna, jganu. |>>> officialdata
05:50 < zipcpi> I don't think fi'o is a good solution to everything
05:50 < gleki> im afraid these "parameters" like "vertex", "material", number of points" are arbitrary.
05:50 < gleki> is the number of points anough to describe a star?
05:51 < omni___> "I don't think fi'o is a good solution to everything" -- What *is* it a good solution for?
05:51 < gleki> why not "x1 is a star non-convex polygon with x2 (number) regular pointy protrusions and x2 indentations." then?
05:51 < gleki> no, not that
05:52 < gleki> why not "x1 is a star non-convex polygon with x2 (regular pointy protrusions) and x3 (indentations)." then?
05:52 < zipcpi> I'm going with this definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_polygon
05:52 < zipcpi> Under that definition the indentations are always the same
05:53 < gleki> nope
05:53 < nejni-marji> Defining a brivla for "star (shape)"?
05:53 < zipcpi> Yes
05:53 < gleki> oh wait we are talking about different stars
05:54 < gleki> you want {aste} only for regular star polygons, right?
05:54 < zipcpi> Yeah only for the regular-ish ones. Not these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star-shaped_polygon
05:54 < gleki> because other types have unpredictable indentations
05:55 < zipcpi> The latter isn't normally what we think of when we say "star-shaped" after all
05:55 < gleki> isnt this a star? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_polygon#/media/File:Wide_pentagram.png
05:55 < nejni-marji> "x1 is a star shape with regular protrusions x2, regular intrusions x3"?
05:55 < nejni-marji> s/2, /2, and /
05:55 < zipcpi> Well yes, but x2 and x3 will always be the same
05:55 < gleki> well, for regular ones intrusions can be calculated from protrusions i guess
05:56 < nejni-marji> The x2 refers to the actual protusions.
05:56 < nejni-marji> x3 referring to the actual indentations
05:56 < zipcpi> Oh you mean the parts of the star itself
05:56 < nejni-marji> Yeah.
05:56 < gleki> but then x2 is always a function of x3
05:56 < zipcpi> So you can say se aste
05:56 < zipcpi> lo se aste
05:56 < nejni-marji> se .aste -> the points of the stars
05:59 < zipcpi> I do have an irrational fear of using da though
05:59 < zipcpi> Cause I hear one you use it it is assigned for the rest of your utterance
06:00 <@Broca> da de di do du
06:00 < nejni-marji> I'm confused as to where using da comes in.
06:00 < zipcpi> And I forgot how to clear assignments
06:00 < nejni-marji> It's assigned for the bridi.
06:00 < nejni-marji> That's it.
06:00 <@Broca> What if bridi are logically joined?
06:00 < zipcpi> Well under your proposed definition, the easiest way of saying "this star has five points" is {ti .aste mu da}
06:00 < nejni-marji> .i da me mi .i da kakne loka me do
06:00 < nejni-marji> unless you use tu'e/tu'u.
06:01 < nejni-marji> .i tu'e da me mi .i da na kakne loka me do tu'u .i da kakne loka me do
06:01 < nejni-marji> Broca: Logical combinations as well, I think.
06:01 < zipcpi> Cool
06:01 < nejni-marji> en: da'o
06:01 < mensi> da'o = [DAhO] discursive: cancel pro-sumti/pro-bridi assignments. |>>> officialdata
06:02 < nejni-marji> {da'o} clears {broda} and {ko'a}.
06:03 < nejni-marji> {ni'o ni'o} (it has to be repeated twice) also clears broda/ko'a, as well.
06:03 < nejni-marji> I guess a {no'i no'i} could be used to bring them back if cleared with {ni'o ni'o}.
06:04 < nejni-marji> </musings>
06:04 < zipcpi> a'onai la jbovlaste ca spofu
06:04 < zipcpi> cazi na spofu
06:04 < nejni-marji> You know how {puzi} is to say {a short while before [now]}?
06:05 < zipcpi> su'oroi na lacka'e
06:05 < zipcpi> I know
06:05 < zipcpi> It was not loading when I said it, then it loaded
06:06 < nejni-marji> Well, do I have to switch {pu} and {zi} around to say {mi klama lo zarci zipu lonu citka} for {I went to the store a short while before eating.}?
06:07 < zipcpi> I've never thought about that
06:07 < zipcpi> I think puzi would be fine?
06:08 < nejni-marji> Because the {zi lonu citka} would mean {a short (yet equal to the amount of time for eating) while before}, though?
06:08 < nejni-marji> en: zi
06:08 < mensi> zi = [ZI] time tense distance: instantaneous-to-short distance in time. |>>> officialdata
06:08 < nejni-marji> zi is the distance.
06:08 < zipcpi> Yes. pu means past. zi means distance in time
06:08 < zipcpi> Don't think it matters which order in this case
06:10  * nuzba @PsyMar: @UnvirtuousAbbey Just wait until we get to Heaven and everyone speaks Lojban. [http://bit.ly/1ShLEGv]
06:11 < nejni-marji> {lo te gusni <ga'u zi lo ci mitre> cu nu mi}
06:11 < nejni-marji> "The lights are above me at the distance of three meters."
06:11 < zipcpi> zi specifically refers to time
06:11 < nejni-marji> If you take out {ga'u}, it means "The lights are three meters away from me."
06:12 < nejni-marji> vi and zi function the same way, though.
06:12 < nejni-marji> V is just for space instead.
06:23 < nejni-marji> mi na birti fi lo mi kibro nunjorne
06:53 < gleki> mi kanpe lo nu la'oi NooLearn ba fliba tu'a la lojban ja lo jbocmu
06:56 < nejni-marji> rafsi: cmu
06:56 < mensi> zo jicmu se rafsi zo'oi cmu
06:56 < gleki> oise'i i zo cecmu
06:56 < gleki> e ra'oi ce'u
07:09 < zipcpi> la'o gy. nuzba @PsyMar: @UnvirtuousAbbey Just wait until we get to Heaven and everyone speaks Lojban. [http://bit.ly/1ShLEGv] .gy zo'u mi tcidu ri u'i
07:10 < durka42> ua
07:11 < durka42> coico'o mi puzi mo'u ckafi pinxe .i .ei ckule cazu
07:11 < durka42> si si cadzu
07:18 < zipcpi> That eight-arrow Lojban flag... what is that? Logic for the logic god? That doesn't seem very chaotic :p
07:18 < zipcpi> zo'o
07:19 < nejni-marji> .i la'e zoi gy. logic god .gy gasnu lonu mi mo'irpei lo xajmi pixra
07:20 < nejni-marji> .i ku'i ri srana lo me'oi .neckbeards.
07:21 < gleki> this is coordinate grid, zipcpi
07:21 < zipcpi> That's the normal four arrow one. There's an eight-arrow version in the signs and symbols page
07:22 < gleki> oh
07:22 < gleki> no idea
07:22 < nejni-marji> zoi .urli. https://24.media.tumblr.com/3eefe1888567f1d277b1897a9635de27/tumblr_mynpb3T8JH1r2hvi6o1_1280.jpg .urli
07:22 < gleki> somewhere from jbotcan probably
07:30 < zipcpi> The eight-pointed arrow is a symbol of the chaotic/demonic entities in the Warhammer fantasy universe
07:31 < b_jonas> yeah... so I've heared
07:31 < gleki> then this is definitely a reference to kurtyvla vau [D[D[Dzo'o
07:31 < zipcpi> u'isai
07:59 < durka42> xru
08:00 < nejni-marji> uanai rafsi
08:01 < zipcpi> rafsi: xru
08:01 < mensi> zo xruti se rafsi zo'oi xru
08:01 < quintus> coi rodo
08:02 < quintus> I'm trying to write a brief essay on logical and pragmatic interpretation of complex (conjunctive) questions in natural languages.
08:03 < quintus> I have an intuitive feeling that the phrase "What color are the plates and cups" could be interpreted in two ways depending on whether you treat the 'and' as indicating two separate questions or you treat "plates and cups" to necessarily have the same color based on the way the question is formulated.
08:04 < quintus> so: "What color are the plates? The cups?" versus "What one color would you use to describe the state of the plates and the state of the cups?"
08:05 < quintus> I thought that (1) lojban probably avoids this problem somehow and (2) even if it doesn't, the folks at #lojban probably have something to say about it from a logical-language perspective.
08:05 < zipcpi> Second one is {ma se skari le palta je le kabri} First one... may be better expressed as two questions
08:06 < zipcpi> ma se skari le palta .ije ma go'i le kabri
08:06 < quintus> Does jbo allow for and-expansion using a different form of and? "What color are the {plates,cups}? " -> "What color are the plates? What color are the cups?" ?
08:06 < zipcpi> Since you expect two answers
08:07 < zipcpi> Hmm... there probably is but I can't recall it right now
08:07 < nejni-marji> en: skari
08:07 < mensi> skari = x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4. |>>> Conditions may include
08:07 < mensi> lighting, background, etc..  See also blanu, bunre, cicna, cinta, crino, grusi, narju, nukni, pelxu, xunre, zirpu, carmi,
08:07 < mensi> kandi, xekri, blabi. |>>> officialdata
08:07 < quintus> zo .ije may have been the word I was looking for
08:07 < zipcpi> There's something to assign sumti "respectively" last I heard
08:07 < zipcpi> .ije is actually two words. .i and je
08:07 < nejni-marji> ma fa'u ma se skari lo palta fa'u kabri
08:07 < zipcpi> Can't be quoted by zo
08:07 < zipcpi> [/pedantic]
08:08 < nejni-marji> zo fa'u se smuni zo'oi .respectively.
08:08 < omni___> "What color are the plates and cups" is sort of ambiguous in English, but not in Lojban.
08:08 < quintus> zipcpi: right but the je as entire-bridi-AND-afterthought is possible which I didn't know
08:09 < quintus> lu .ije li'u yes okay fine
08:09 < omni___> If you ask {ma se skari lo palta .e lo kabri} then they both have the same color.
08:09 < zipcpi> So {ma fa'u ma se skari lo palta fa'u kabri
08:09 < nejni-marji> Yeah, that's what I said :)
08:09 < zipcpi> lol Yeah I just noticed
08:09 < nejni-marji> doi zipcpi
08:10 < nejni-marji> u'i
08:10 <@xalbo> I'd feel far more comfortable with {lo palta fa'u lo kabri} than {lo palta fa'u kabri}. tanru-internal connectives give me a head type-of ache.
08:10 < quintus> omni___: hmm, so are there semantic differences between {ma se skari le palta je le kabri} and {ma se skari lo palta .e lo kabri}?
08:10 < zipcpi> u'i doi xalbo
08:11 < omni___> The differences are not related to your question
08:11 < omni___> They can be considered the same for the current context
08:11 < nejni-marji> quintus: "le broda je le brode" is rather weird.
08:11 < zipcpi> Er I used le for English the but they don't always quite map
08:11 < quintus> omni___, zipcpi: are the differences simply xorlo-related?
08:12 < nejni-marji> {le} vs {lo} for one, and then using jacu-reform.
08:12 <@xalbo> I'm more focusing on having a second gadri at all. {le palta fa'u le kabri} would be fine, but {le palta fa'u kabri} feels weird in the same way.
08:12 < omni___> Yes, xorlo and connective simplification
08:12 < nejni-marji> camxes: mi cu klama lo zarci gi'e cu citka lo cidja
08:12 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "c" found.
08:13 < nejni-marji> ge ki'e gi je'e .camxes.
08:13 < zipcpi> {lo} introduces a new object (which may be an old object, so lo is never really "wrong") into the discourse. {le} refers to an object already in the discourse.
08:13 <@xalbo> (You know for vocatives you can just do {ki'e je'e .camxes.}, yes?)
08:13 < quintus> okay, then the distinction is between {ma seskari lo palta fa'u lo kabri} and {ma seskari lo palta .e lo kabri}?
08:13 < omni___> Yes.
08:14 < zipcpi> First one is properly ma fa'u ma
08:14 < zipcpi> Because you expect two answers
08:14 <@xalbo> zipcpi: Not exactly. {le} doesn't require the entity to already be in the discourse, it just requires specificity, that there be a particular object that the speaker intends to refer to.
08:14 < zipcpi> That's... almost exactly how English the is used :p
08:15 < omni___> Surprise! Lojban was made by English speakers
08:15 < nejni-marji> omni___: wait what
08:15 <@xalbo> There are subtle differences, but yes, they end up very similar.
08:15 < nejni-marji> ua cai toi'e zo'o
08:16 < quintus> so the difference between "fa'u" and "e" in this context is that the former asks two questions (question-expansion) and the latter asks a question which presupposes that the palta and the kabri are the same color...correct?
08:16 <@xalbo> (for instance, "The cat is a quadrupedal mammal." wouldn't use {le}, unless you really did mean a particular cat.
08:16 < zipcpi> Yes
08:17 < zipcpi> ie doi xalbo
08:17 < omni___> The latter asks: "What is such that it is the color of both the plate and the cup?"
08:17 < quintus> I was looking for some formalism to try to distinguish the two cases that show up in the interpretation of the corresponding (identical) sentences in en_us.
08:17 < quintus> Perfect.
08:18 < quintus> Honestly the biggest thing that has changed since I started working with lojban is that I have been thinking more and more in the sort of mechanical en_us that your translation uses, omni___.
08:19 < zipcpi> I've been using "iff" a lot, confusing some of my friends whom I am helping math with :p
08:19 < quintus> The problem is that iff sounds like if.
08:19 < zipcpi> Also I've begun inserting a lot of non-standard hyphens
08:19 < zipcpi> I pronounce it "ifyf"
08:20 < zipcpi> Lojban y
08:20 < quintus> ee-fuhf
08:20 < zipcpi> But yeah I hate that I have to resort to a non-standard pronunciation to distinguish them
08:20 <@xalbo> I tend to pronounce it "if-if" in my head, and "ifandonlyif" out loud.
08:21 < nejni-marji> I do "if eff" in my head
08:21 < zipcpi> I mean come on. If it was that important to distinguish them why do this
08:21 < zipcpi> Well not that it really matters. It's already non-standard English grammar :p
08:22 < quintus> de'a jundi
08:22 < nejni-marji> .i doi la zipcpi cu tugni
08:22 < zipcpi> brb I'm going to write a dozen proposals for English zo'o
08:23 < zipcpi> yyyyy ke'o
08:23 < zipcpi> xu tugni le'ai pei
08:24 < zipcpi> tugni ma
08:24 < zipcpi> si fi ma
08:25 < nejni-marji> non-standard grammar and off
08:25 < nejni-marji> iff*
08:25 < zipcpi> ua
08:26 < zipcpi> va'o da'i zo'ei do mi cusku lu <ie doi la zipcpi>
08:26 < zipcpi> li'u
08:28 < omni___> Why not have a preposition with the semantics of "ganai" ?
08:28 < zipcpi> There is a brivla, ifle
08:28 < omni___> Been thinking about that recently
08:28 < omni___> Yes, sure.
08:28 < durka42> isn't it {va'o} or {fau}?
08:29 < omni___> They're different
08:30 < durka42> fi'o ifle o_O
08:30 < zipcpi> lol
08:30 < durka42> it depends what "the semantics of ganai" means
08:30 < omni___> It means "[not X] or [Y]"
08:31 < omni___> It's "nibli".
08:31 < zipcpi> Ah yes, fi'o; how I both love and hate you
08:32 < durka42> well there already is a nibli modal...
08:32 < Ilmen> If you dislikes fi'o, use {xoi} or {soi} instead :D
08:32 < zipcpi> lol
08:32 < zipcpi> I did use xoi, in Tatoeba :p
08:33 < omni___> zipcpi: I hope we'll be talking more in Lojban soon, you're ready to leave English behind for a while
08:33 < durka42> zipcpi: ma cmene do la .tato'ebas.
08:33 < zipcpi> zo'oi <Spheniscine>
08:33 < durka42> je'e
08:33 < omni___> We can never
08:33 < omni___> .y
08:33 < nejni-marji> .i mi troci co cilre fi la spero ca
08:33 < omni___> http://tatoeba.org/deu/user/profile/Spheniscine
08:34 < durka42> ue zo'oi /deu/
08:34 < omni___> ue mi dotco
08:35 < durka42> .e'u zo'oi http://tatoeba.org/jbo/user/profile/Spheniscine .u'i
08:36 < quintus> di'a jundi
08:37 < zipcpi> coiru'e
08:38 < durka42> co'onai
08:40 < nejni-marji> .i pau vlakra zo ki'e ma ma
08:40 < durka42> zo ckire
08:40 < durka42> krasi: ckire
08:40 < mensi> ckire = .i zo'oi cie banzuxe'o .i zo'oi greitfl bangenugu .i zo'oi cukra banxe'inu .i zo'oi rekonos bansupu'a .i zo'oi
08:40 < mensi> priznatiln banru'usu .i zo'oi cukran bangaru'a
08:43 < gleki> i'd probably agree on how xalbo understands {le} but his explanation in English terms reminds me of veridicality which i dont agree with
08:44 < nejni-marji> .i mi mo'ifli tu'a zo ckire .i ki'e la durka
08:47 <@xalbo> Specificity and veridicality tend to go together (well, tend to go opposite to each other), but not always. Which do you not agree with, that {le} is non-veridical, or that {lo} is veridical?
08:48 < zipcpi> ie, it's like if I have something in mind I am calling X, it might not actually be an X
08:48 < zipcpi> For example when I talk of "the woman" I might actually be referring to a woman in a painting
08:49 < gleki> When you are saying "particular cat" I have anaphora/cataphora/exophora in mind but not veridicality
08:49 < zipcpi> OK I don't know what that means. That is the limit of my amateur linguistic knowledge :p
08:50 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Particle_%22le%22_for_anaphora,_cataphora,_exophora
08:52 <@xalbo> {le} is non-veridical, always has been, always will. Basically, {le gerku mi batci} is true or false based on whether the thing in question bit you, not on whether or not it gerku.
08:53 < zipcpi> coi loi bergu
08:53 < zipcpi> zo'o
08:53 <@xalbo> Why do people keep trying to change {le}?
08:54 < zipcpi> mi na ai binxo .i mi nelci zo le pe lo cabna
08:55 < zipcpi> bixygau le'ai
08:55 < omni___> zo cengau ji'a mapti
08:55 < omni___> cnegau*
08:56 < nejni-marji> My solution, uinai, is to avoid lo.
08:56 < nejni-marji> si le.
08:57 < nejni-marji> non verdicality, pilno lu lo pe'a li'u
08:57 < omni___> verticality.
08:58 < zipcpi> karbi fi zo da'i jo'u zo xa'i
08:58 < nejni-marji> Forgot which was which
08:58 < nejni-marji> and for havkng a specific thing in mind
08:59 < zipcpi> Well le is sometimes used as a substitute for English pronouns, like le fetsi = she
08:59 < omni___> Has anyone who uses le managed to formulate a Lojban definition of it that they are entirely happy with?
08:59 < nejni-marji> Those moments when you reduce a list to a regex in conversational english
08:59 < nejni-marji> and realize nobody can read them
09:00 < zipcpi> I don't know how to have such metalinguistic conversations in Lojban, unfortunately
09:01 < nejni-marji> I'd probably translate she as lo prenu, tbh
09:01 < nejni-marji> Unless there's a he and a she and they need to be differentiated
09:02 <@xalbo> I was fine with {le broda = zo'e voi broda}, but others disagree with every bit of that for technical reasons that I don't understand.
09:02 < zipcpi> Well in Lojban text I would prefer to use ri, le go'i, letter-pronouns, or sometimes even goi if I know I'm going to talk about something a lot
09:03 < nejni-marji> zo ri zo'u, zo ra tolgleki
09:03 < zipcpi> Problem is almost no one uses voi
09:03 < zipcpi> But yeah in translations I tend to use ra
09:03 < zipcpi> *non-contextual translations
09:03 < nejni-marji> .i do gletu zo voi .ije coi nai d, .i do za'o cupra lo mrofoi
09:04 < durka42> one problem is I've never seen anyone define {voi} except "something to do with {le}", so if you define {le} in terms of {voi} then everything explodes
09:04 < omni___> Yes. You first have to define {voi}.
09:04 < gleki> xalbo: but then you need to explain what is veridicality and provide a bunch of examples where {lo} and {le} should be used.
09:04 < omni___> And if it's restrictive, then it becomes weird with zo'e
09:04 < durka42> that is, it's fine but it doesn't answer the question of "what does {le} mean to you" :)
09:05 < zipcpi> I can only think of one use-case for voi; that of "titles" affixed to a person's name. But I'm sure there's another way to do that
09:05 < zipcpi> Like maybe no'u la'au ... li'u
09:05 <@xalbo> Remind me again what's wrong with restrictives applying to {zo'e}?
09:06 < nejni-marji> la .wubis. voi spogau lo su'o terdi - Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds
09:06 < nejni-marji> la'au li'u is cool.
09:07 < zipcpi> Yeah like that
09:07 < zipcpi> Although the proper cmevla is .uubis.
09:07 < nejni-marji> Personally, I'd think to use voi when describing an event I
09:07 < zipcpi> And daspo is fine
09:07 < nejni-marji> 'm too far from to see clearly.
09:07 < nejni-marji> And such, describe what I think is happening.
09:08 < omni___> zo'e poi broda == lo me zo'e je broda, meaning zo'e can refer to things that don't broda
09:08 < durka42> uh
09:08 < durka42> {me zo'e je broda} would seem to require an x1 that does broda
09:08 < omni___> zo'e alone.
09:09 < durka42> zo'e alone can refer to anything
09:09 < omni___> ..
09:09 < durka42> is that relevant? you said zo'epoi :)
09:10 < omni___> Yes. The zo'e is a bunch of stuff (which needn't only include things that broda), and poi restricts those things.
09:10 < omni___> That came out a bit wrong
09:10 < omni___> It restricts the referents of the *resulting* sumti
09:10 < omni___> Not zo'e itself
09:10 < nejni-marji> example lu doi lo sidju (can't think of word for police) mi zgana lo clapre voi zeklebna lo jdini pe lo tolcni prenu zi'e poi klama fi'o <me'oi .west.> li'u
09:11 <@xalbo> pulji
09:11 < omni___> If {voi} is anything like that, it becomes weird.
09:11 < nejni-marji> "Officer, I saw a tall person <voi stole money from an old person> zi'e <poi heading west>."
09:11 < omni___> klama lo stici
09:12 <@xalbo> I'm still understanding the problem with {zo'e poi}. Is there some concrete example or something?
09:12 < nejni-marji> ki'e la'oi .omni.
09:12 < omni___> mi'e la .omni
09:13 <@xalbo> lo ka .omni cu mo
09:13 < nejni-marji> durka42: me zo'e ~ co'e
09:13 < zipcpi> zo omni cu drata zi'evla je cu se jbovlaste
09:13 < omni___> ka .omni .i ka ckini fi ro da
09:13 <@xalbo> je'e
09:13 < omni___> sa .i ckini ro da
09:14 <@xalbo> .i cikni ro da vau na'i
09:14 < nejni-marji> I tend to resort to la'oi and zo'oi when I'm not sure how to or if I need to lojbanize a thing.
09:14 < omni___> sa'u ko catlu
09:14 < omni___> jbo:omni
09:14 < mensi> omni = x1 ckini fi x2 fe ro da (to poi ke'a ckaji x3 toi)
09:14 < nejni-marji> Or when I
09:14 < nejni-marji> am just lazni.
09:15 < zipcpi> One thing I don't like is how three of the four cardinal directions have the same initial letter
09:16 < omni___> Yes, and thus the FAhA don't match
09:17 <@xalbo> zipcpi: {be'a}, {du'a}, {ne'u}, and {vu'a} have distinct initials, so those tend to be used.
09:17  * zipcpi nods
09:17 <@xalbo> But yes, it's silly.
09:18 < nejni-marji> en: north
09:18 < mensi> 145 da se tolcri: berti, bangatugu, bangokuxu, bangrtcosena, bankuxecu, banve'obu, banxunu'a, be'a, bemro, bemtu'a,
09:18 < mensi> bermau, berpau, berstici, berstuna, bersunberberti, gugdekupu, gugdemupu, gugdrtcosena, latmrfriko, mo'ibe'a, selbe'o,
09:18 < mensi> selberti, terberti, xuncindu, abgad, alcamacrike, banbubu'o, banbucudu, banbufucu, banbukusu, banbumumu, bancunugu,
09:18 < mensi> bancurulu, bancusutu, bancutusu, bandugu'i, bandu'ipu, bandu'ive, bandu'ocu, banfu'azu, banfululu, banfururu, banga'e'e,
09:18 < mensi> bangajepu, bangakenu, bangapucu, bangatuvu, bangazuju, bangemupu, bangesu'i, bangesuku, bangojubu, bangonuru, bangunu'a,
09:18 < mensi> banguzunu, banje'iru, banje'ivu, banjekugu, banjemuxu, banke'ulu, bankevulu, bankevunu, bankevuzu, bankexunu, bankufubu,
09:18 < mensi> banku'ive, bankujenu, bankukesu, bankumuru, bankutu'i, bankuxumu, banluburu, banlulupu, banlurucu, banmu'axu, banmufuku,
09:18 < mensi> banmujudu, banmumugu, banmuruke, banmuxu'a, ...
09:18 < zipcpi> oi
09:18 <@xalbo> omni___: So you object to {mi citka zo'e poi plise}, because the {zo'e} could contain things that don't apple, before being further restricted? Or...I still don't see the issue.
09:18 < nejni-marji> It's more annoying than lo rafsi be ma'oi se
09:18 < omni___> Make new brivla then that match the FAhA
09:18 < nejni-marji> But it's not a huge deal because I rarely use them.
09:19 < omni___> I don't "object" as much as it just sounds weird.
09:19 < zipcpi> Is there an opposite of fi'o?
09:20 < zipcpi> That can change a tense into a brivla
09:20 < omni___> xo'i
09:20 < zipcpi> ki'e
09:21 < nejni-marji>  me'au?
09:21 < nejni-marji> en: xo'i
09:21 < mensi> xo'i = [XOhI] Extracts selbri from a tag, inverse of fi'o |>>> xo'i bau is equivalent to bangu, xo'i fi'o broda is
09:21 < mensi> equivalent to broda |>>> selpahi
09:21 < zipcpi> No me'au doesn't work
09:21 < nejni-marji> sa'ei .uat.
09:21 < nejni-marji> me'au loka TAG se TAG te TAG... was my thought process.
09:22 < zipcpi> me'au is to make a sumti a selbri. It's similar to me except where me means "x1 is among these", me'au means "x1 *is* this/these"
09:22 <@xalbo> Without experimental grammar, you can use {jai TAG co'e} (or maybe something else in place of the {co'e} there)
09:22 < nejni-marji> fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i fi'o xo'i... then sprinkle in some SE, JAI...
09:22 < zipcpi> Oh wait I'm wrong
09:22 < zipcpi> me'au extracts a ka/du'u
09:23 < nejni-marji> me'au is N-ary, me is unary.
09:23 < nejni-marji> Is the main difference.
09:23 < zipcpi> But yeah what it definitely doesn't do is interact with sumtcita
09:23 < nejni-marji> {.i mi do lo .irci me'au loka ce'e ce'u se pi'o ce'u tavla}
09:24 < omni___> cu me'au
09:29 < zipcpi> But yeah I think instead of accepting whatever the gismu algorithm spat out they should have gone in and meddled somewhat with it. Make sure stuff like cardinal directions don't clash, make sure things fit their sumtcita better, etc.
09:30 < zipcpi> Does it make sense to stack FAhA, like be'a du'a = to the northeast?
09:30 < nejni-marji> Apparently the gismu algorithm generated gicmu for gismu
09:31 < nejni-marji> but it was entered incorrectly?
09:31 < zipcpi> lol Apparently
09:31 < nejni-marji> sl we have gismu
09:31 < omni___> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll/10/3/
09:32 < gleki> cll is an extension to mediawiki? AI in action!
09:37 < zipcpi> Oh nejni-marji I didn't see your hack for turning ka with tags with me'au
09:37 < zipcpi> But yeah xo'i is probably better
09:39 < nejni-marji> Yeah.
09:42 < ldlework> mi ganse lo ka na kanro
09:43 < zipcpi> ma na kanro
09:43 < ldlework> uinaicu'i
09:43 < ldlework> mi
09:43 < zipcpi> uu di'ai
09:43 < zipcpi> di'ai do sutra lo ka kanro binxo
09:52 < zipcpi> I remember when I was in college and I was really annoyed at my textbook that used the words "use case" without any hyphens
09:52 < gleki> mi ganse lo ka na menli kanro vau uinai
09:52 < zipcpi> The syntactic ambiguity was driving me nuts
09:53 < zipcpi> Cause I see use and I automatically parse it as a verb
09:53 < gleki> i la'a so'a lo'e jbopre na menli kanro ije lo menli kanro cu zukcfu lo drata iseki'ubo la'a so'o lo misno jbopre ba'oru'e jbopre
09:59 < zipcpi> use-case = lo te pilno poi se kanpe ?
10:04 < zipcpi> lo vanbi poi ka'e te pilno je poi se kanpe ?
10:58 < durka42> just found myself editing a "mv" in the command line which had the arguments in the wrong order
10:58 < durka42> I wanted to type "setese"
11:01 <@Broca> :-)
11:01 < durka42> I guess you could write a shell script to do that
11:01 < zipcpi> u'i
11:02 < zipcpi> todo: Make a Lojban programming language :p
11:02 < zipcpi> Finally a programming language that can be read aloud
11:03 < CyanoIntrant> o.O neat thought
11:03 < durka42> alex$ ./setese echo a b c
11:03 < durka42> b a c
11:04 < durka42> now to generalize it so that it's just "j setese echo a b c"
11:08 < gleki> ca'e lo jetnu cu jitfa
11:08 < gleki> #define true false
11:09 < durka42> .u'i
11:25  * nuzba @FreyaWynn: Guaranteed ways to make me swoon: hit on me in lojban [http://bit.ly/1c7ICmJ]
11:34 < zipcpi> Yeah looks like they don't normally hypenate "use case" oi
11:34 < zipcpi> I really wish they would
11:35 < zipcpi> The syntax does funny things to my brain
11:44 < zipcpi> ei mi sipna co'o
11:50  * nuzba @menturi: .i .ei mi ciska bau la jbobau .i ku'i mi nitcu lo ka pilno le valsi poi di'i pilno ke'a .i ku'i mi pilno le pilno le valsi poi na di'i pilno [http://bit.ly/1IRL9hY]
11:52  * nuzba @menturi: .i mi ciska .ei bau la jbobau fe le valsi poi di'i pilno [http://bit.ly/1c7LyzV]
11:52  * nuzba @menturi: .i mi ciska .ei bau la jbobau fe le valsi poi di'i pilno ke'a [http://bit.ly/1IRLjWB]
12:00  * nuzba @Dymmy83: @FreyaWynn So... Shakespeare in Lojban would do what for you? :3 [http://bit.ly/1c7Mvbg]
12:16 <@xalbo> "use case" isn't that odd when you realize it's the noun "use" (with an /s/), not the verb "use" (with a /z/). It's just a noun-noun apposition, like "dog house".
12:21 < ldlework> xalbo: ie
12:23 < b_jonas> xalbo: there's a pronunciation difference? English is weird
12:24 <@xalbo> Why yes, it is.
12:24 <@xalbo> The verb is pronounced like lojban {iuz}, the noun like lojban {ius}.
12:25 < b_jonas> David Madore mentions ambiguities in English related to English noun tanrus in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html#d.2015-03-20.2284
12:29 < ldlework> hi b_jonas
12:29 < b_jonas> coi
12:29 < ldlework> b_jonas: mind if I PM you?
12:29 < ldlework> nothing important
12:30 < b_jonas> feel free
12:38 < ldlework> la jenca ku je mi zvati la jboguhe ku: ui http://i.imgur.com/ylA8T6U.jpg
12:40 < ldlework> That's jenca working on her hide and seek game
13:48  * nuzba @Heuristic7: @FreyaWynn God I havent heard mention of lojban for years. [http://bit.ly/1HkUNW1]
13:57 < ldlework> How do you refer to x1?
13:58 <@xalbo> What do you mean?
13:58 < ldlework> like if you were crafting a valsi2
13:59 <@xalbo> I tend to fill valsi2 with a {ka}, with empty {ce'u} for the places.
13:59 <@xalbo> zo citka valsi lo ka ce'u ce'u citka
14:00 < ldlework> https://twitter.com/dustinlacewell/status/601492749922238465 u'i
14:02 < ldlework> xalbo: ki'e
14:02 <@xalbo> .u'i
14:04  * nuzba @dustinlacewell: @FreyaWynn ro djacu pe ro xamsi ka'e nai se jinru le gradu be lo do kamymelbi .i la lojban ku nitcu pa valsi be lo se du'u kaijbi do [http://bit.ly/1INQmJ3]
14:19 < rutytar> coi
14:22 < ldlework> coi rutytar
14:29 < rutytar> does anyone here use anki?
14:29 < ldlework> I use memrise
14:30 < Ilmen> I use anki
14:30 <@xalbo> I use Anki, but not for Lojban (I use it for French).
14:31 < rutytar> i'm thinking of generating a deck from this http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.txt
14:31 < Ilmen> I don't really need Anki anymore for Lojban, but I'm still using it for other languages
14:31 < rutytar> Ilmen: do you still have the deck you used?
14:31 < Ilmen> rutytar: that was one of the sources I used for building my own custom deck
14:32 < Ilmen> I still have it, but it's a custom deck which lacks many gismu and cmavo; I mostly added the most frequent and useful stuff, and think I felt I was needing
14:32 < Ilmen> *and things I felt...
14:33 < Ilmen> Here is a full frequency list, you may find it useful: http://mw.lojban.org/images/9/9a/MyFreq-COMB_without_dots.txt
14:34 < Ilmen> However there are pre-made Lojban decks for Anki and Memrise which are already sorted by frequency, if I'm not mistaken
14:34 < Ilmen> https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/lojban
14:34 < Ilmen> http://www.memrise.com/courses/english/lojban/
14:35 < Ilmen> You should have a look to the ones stored there
14:44 < rutytar> 79850 selpa'i
14:44 < rutytar> zo'o
15:29 < Spacenut42> So guys
15:30 < Spacenut42> How else are rafsi used other than making lujvo?
16:55 < isd> coi rodo .i do mo
18:21 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki I've thought on your {toi'e} question and Curtis hasn't got back to me yet, but I think that UI-cmavo (and their associated NAI and CAI) by default will all clump together in one piece. Thus there might be a need for yet another TOIhE cmavo, that acts as nothing more than a UI-clause "bracket", similar to how ke works for tanru. For example in {au *koi'e ui toi'e iu}, iu then applies to ui and not au, if *koi'e wasn't there
18:21 < zipcpi> it'd apply to both. Pretty narrow use-case I'd admit.
18:21 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
18:21 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki it'd apply to both. Pretty narrow use-case I'd admit.
18:21 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
18:24 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki {ta'o} has UI, NAI, and CAI been merged yet? I'm not too clear on their grammatical differences if they aren't.
18:24 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
18:28 < zipcpi> mensi: doi gleki Maybe the only difference is how NAI and CAI will stick to UI.
18:28 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.gleki.gy. di'a cusku da
20:08  * nuzba @tracyharms: Since I'm living with people who are learning Lojban I'm getting them to translate band names. Snowbeasts: la su'oremei snime mabru [http://bit.ly/1Q0cbnJ]
23:07 < gleki> mensi: doi zipcpi rafsi are for lujvo and for rafsycmevla only.
23:07 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.zipcpi.gy. di'a cusku da
23:07 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: I've thought on your {toi'e} question and Curtis hasn't got back to me yet, but I think
23:07 < mensi> that UI-cmavo (and their associated NAI and CAI) by default will all clump together in one piece. Thus there might be a
23:07 < mensi> need for yet another TOIhE cmavo, that acts as nothing more than a UI-clause "bracket", similar to how ke works for
23:07 < mensi> tanru. For example in {au *koi'e ui toi'e iu}, iu then applies to ui and not au, if *koi'e wasn't there |
23:07 < mensi> 2015-05-22T01:21:38.465Z
23:07 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: it'd apply to both. Pretty narrow use-case I'd admit. | 2015-05-22T01:21:56.
23:07 < mensi> 316Z
23:07 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: {ta'o} has UI, NAI, and CAI been merged yet? I'm not too clear on their grammatical
23:07 < mensi> differences if they aren't. | 2015-05-22T01:24:09.660Z
23:07 < mensi> gleki: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: Maybe the only difference is how NAI and CAI will stick to UI. | 2015-05-22T01:28:06.
23:07 < mensi> 329Z
23:08 < gleki> mensi: doi zipcpi. try describing the priority of nai/toi'e/cai etc. in an article like it's done for ke/bo etc. in Waves.
23:08 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.zipcpi..gy. di'a cusku da
23:10 < gleki> mensi: doi zipcpi i dont think it's a goos idea to merge UI with NAI/CAI. they have different meaning. and NAI is even used in different grammatical constructs like TAGnai
23:10 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.zipcpi.gy. di'a cusku da
23:43 < ldlework> http://ldlework.com/jboguhe_night.png
23:54 < gleki> i think we need tags for zenba and jdika. at least just to test
23:55 < gleki> hm. "stative aspect" is also hard to translate except {mi stodi lo ka}
23:55 < gleki> mi ru'i stodi lo ka
--- Day changed Fri May 22 2015
00:08 < gleki> a nice improvement to Tatoeba http://tatoeba.org/jbo/wall/show_message/22768#message_22768
00:25 < zipcpi> http://www.kaimann.com/uk-en/special-products?sid=1476 la ckaji fapro ki'a toi'e zo'o
00:25 < mensi> zipcpi: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: rafsi are for lujvo and for rafsycmevla only. | 2015-05-22T06:07:46.
00:25 < mensi> 736Z
00:25 < mensi> zipcpi: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: i dont think it's a goos idea to merge UI with NAI/CAI. they have different meaning. and
00:25 < mensi> NAI is even used in different grammatical constructs like TAGnai | 2015-05-22T06:10:01.
00:25 < mensi> 278Z
00:27 < zipcpi> rafsi ki'a .i mi na cusku da pe lo rafsi
00:28 < zipcpi> Yeah the thing about NAI/CAI makes sense
00:30 < gleki> sorry it was spacenut
00:30 < zipcpi> je'e
00:46  * nuzba @virtadpt: @maradydd I'm going to freestyle 0-days in Lojban on YouTube. [http://bit.ly/1KofOFq]
01:48  * nuzba @mkmagicannon: Say, would an "underhanded Lojban" contest be good? That is, something that's really dodgy to say but also hard to pick up. [http://bit.ly/1cRtqL2]
03:25 < phma> coi
03:26 < gleki> coi
03:27 < phma> I heard that Mohamed Morsi was condemned to death. Until he's executed, he's still Mohamed Jmive.
03:34 < gleki> ie
03:40 < gleki> i pu'o morsi
03:51 < zipcpi> coi
04:02 < gleki> LMW now absolutely not optimized for mobile
04:03 < zipcpi> Oh yeah that... still having trouble with that with my websites too
04:05 < demize> That's why you should make simple websites that basically takes care of itself on mobiles ;p
04:05 < gleki> LMW worked fine before these changes started
04:05 < Vanlamigu> mensi: doi xalbo About zo'epoi http://pastebin.com/rQR4jjbj
04:05 < mensi> Vanlamigu: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.xalbo.gy. di'a cusku da
04:06 < gleki> Vanlamigu: ki'u ma jmina fi le uitki
04:06 < Vanlamigu> xu zo na .implicite
04:06 < gleki> Vanlamigu: ki'u ma jmina fi le uitki nu'o
04:07 < Vanlamigu> na'e se ganzu .ixu nabmi
04:07 < gleki> na djuno i xu se curmi fa lonu jmina
04:08 < Vanlamigu> se curmi ma .i mi ka'e jmina .i ku'i lo nu cikre cu sarcu lo nu mapti lo drata ke uitki .irci bo vreji
04:09 < gleki> ei pilno lo dikni se cusku
04:09 < Vanlamigu> mi na certu tu'a ri
04:10 < gleki> ge'e
04:11 < gleki> i ei pilno la gleki
04:14 < Vanlamigu> .title http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/whichwhat-a-new-gadri
04:14 < phenny> Vanlamigu: Which/what - A new gadri - l๏ кเ๒ץкคгภเ թє lค รєlթคђเ
04:14 < gleki> ue
04:15 < gleki> exp:  l๏ кเ๒ץкคгภเ թє lค รєlթคђเ
04:15 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "k" found.
04:15 < gleki> eipei drani
04:15 < Vanlamigu> .ei nai
04:15 < gleki> e'o do'o cikre http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_zo%27e_poi
04:15 < Vanlamigu> io
04:16 < gleki> i ei cikre lo se srera valsi
04:16 < gleki> i ji'a la'a sarcu falonu vimcu su'o zo'oi <br>
04:16 < Vanlamigu> za'a
04:17 < gleki> i lu oi ckafi li'u zo'u ko vimcu
04:17 < Vanlamigu> .u'i
04:17 < Vanlamigu> vi'o
04:18 < gleki> i lo drata ke simsa papri cu simsa na'e prane
04:23 < zipcpi> lol For all that I had said about Curtis I don't think we are too different after all. {li'i'e} is of a similar purpose to an idea of a "paracosm indicator" that I had toyed with in English. Still don't understand the zmico though :p
04:24 < zipcpi> And shockingly he defined it using terms nowhere near as dense as "paracosm indicator" zo'ose'i
04:28 < Vanlamigu> xu lo uitki co'u benji lo notci la .tu'iter.
04:30 < Vanlamigu> na mabla http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_zo%27e_poi
04:30 < Vanlamigu> .i .ei pei zo selpa'i basti zoi ba. fpcalep .ba
04:30 < gleki> do jdice i au basti
04:31 < Vanlamigu> .ai
04:31 < zipcpi> zoi ba. fpcalep .ba ki'a
04:31 < niek> valsi basti
04:32 < niek> valsi: basti
04:32 < Vanlamigu> cmene lo jbopre doi la zipcpi
04:32 < niek> oi xu spofu
04:32 < Vanlamigu> vlaste:basti
04:32 < Vanlamigu> en:basti
04:32 < Vanlamigu> ro da masno
04:32 < niek> uinai
04:33 < gleki> cinri
04:33 < zipcpi> li'a mu'i makau jy cnegau lo jy cmene i'au zo'o
04:34 < Vanlamigu> xa'a'a .... nai
04:34 < Vanlamigu> zo'o
04:34 < Vanlamigu> .i lo cmene cu .itku'ile
04:35 < Vanlamigu> (to ga'a mi po'o nai toi)
04:36 < Vanlamigu> za'a mi co'u crino je co'a xunblabi
04:36 < zipcpi> zo'oi <fpcalep> itku'ile xu
04:36 < Vanlamigu> go'i
04:36 < Vanlamigu> fpçalêpʰ
04:37 < zipcpi> ua
04:37 < zipcpi> aunai xanri le ba'urtadji i'au u'i
04:38 < Vanlamigu> xarpei ja se xanri
04:38 < zipcpi> ie
04:38 < Vanlamigu> xu do nelci lo vanlamigu
04:39 < zipcpi> ma vanlamigu zo'o
04:39 < zipcpi> x1 gusni fi lo solri gi'e se minra lo lalxu ca lo vanci
04:39 < Vanlamigu> lo vanlamigu cu gusni fi lo solri gi'e se minra lo lalxu ca lo vanci
04:40 < zipcpi> (Wow I really need to get a hold of these Lojban-definition-only words)
04:41 < Vanlamigu> "A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. " when saving the page
04:41 < zipcpi> "x1 is sunlight reflected from a lake in the evening"
04:41 < Vanlamigu> .ai re re'u troci
04:41 < Vanlamigu> Ye
04:41 < Vanlamigu> Yes
04:41 < gleki> na zasti http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=User:Fpcalep
04:42 < Vanlamigu> ki'u ma vajni
04:42 < zipcpi> ma vlakra
04:42 < Vanlamigu> lo smuvelski jufra cu valkra
04:42 < gleki> Vanlamigu: ko trocilo ka cuxna la'e zo'oi fpcalep do'e le se casnu papri
04:43 < Vanlamigu> GUsni fi lo solri gi'e se MInra lo LAlxu ca lo VANci
04:43 < zipcpi> ua
04:43 < Vanlamigu> VANci LAlxu MInra GUsni
04:44 < Vanlamigu> mi na jimpe doi la gleki .i ku'i lo papri ca mo'u se ningau http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_zo%27e_poi
04:44 < Vanlamigu> .i mi na jimpe lo du'u zoi gy. fpcalep .gy ckini fi ma kau
04:45 < gleki> ua gau do basti vau je'e
04:45 < Vanlamigu> je'e
04:47 < Vanlamigu> la'a plixau papri .i ba'a nai mi ba'o ji'i ci roi jai gau viska lo se cusku pe lu zo'e poi broda li'u
04:48 < Vanlamigu> .i ku'i zo'o ro ci nu mi jai gau viska cu nu visygau la xalbo
04:48 < gleki> ua ie
04:59 < Vanlamigu> Ebál ti kraţek. — "I need a screwdriver."
04:59 < Vanlamigu> za'a Ithkuil doesn't care about sumti raising
05:00 < zipcpi> mi nasai jimpe tu'a la .itku'il.
05:00 < gleki> Vanlamigu: malgli
05:00 < Vanlamigu> lo jufra ji lo bangu
05:01 < zipcpi> mi zmanei zo malglixlu
05:01 < gleki> lo bangu vau la'a
05:02 < zipcpi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_Gd1ujWoAEPuhR.jpg   i'e mi nelci
05:03 < zipcpi> la'oi https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_Gd1ujWoAEPuhR.jpg:large bramau
05:08 < Ilmen|2> melbi
05:09 < zipcpi> ie melbi
05:10 < gleki> melbi i ie melbi
05:17 < Vanlamigu> ko visëgau mi lo cnino versiyo
05:17 < Vanlamigu> ma ni cizra
05:23 < gleki> versiio be ma
05:26 < akmnlrse> gleki: lo uitki lo fonxa brauzero zo'u .e'u .instali se ju'oi http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CSS
05:26 < akmnlrse> .i va'o ku ka'e canko nilbra .ifle minde
05:26 < gleki> je'e i ai troci bazinai
05:26 < gleki> i ku'i pu melbi i caku na malbi
05:27 < gleki> i ki'u ma pilno lo cnino i lo tolcnino pu na xlali
05:29 < akmnlrse> pe'i lo cnino formata cu melmau (to li'a va'o po'o lo dektope toi) gi'e plixagmau
05:29 < gleki> i ki'u ma na cikre lo cnino formata
05:29 < gleki> sepi'onai lo cnino ke se jmina tutci
05:30 < akmnlrse> lo nu cikre cu se sarcu ga tu'a le tutci gi lo nu stika lo ralju tcesese
05:30 < gleki> Mediaiki:Commons.css
05:30 < akmnlrse> ie
05:30 < gleki> mw.lojban.org/papri/MediaWiki:Common.css
05:30 < gleki> i ji'a CSS pe linji nenri cu ji'a ka'e se pilno
05:30 < gleki> *pe lo
05:31 < gleki> mi na nelci lo nu ma'a pilno so'i se jmina tutci
05:31 < mensi> mi na nelci
05:31 < gleki> i ei vimcu gi'enai jmina vau lo tutci
05:31 < akmnlrse> na ka'e se pilno fi ru .i lo linji nenri na ka'e se pagbu lo canko nilbra cipra
05:35 < gleki> i ji'a mi na nelci lo nu lo fonxa kibystuzi zo'u lo ralju papri zo'u lo nuzba cu lidne lo ralju datni be la lojban
05:35 < mensi> ba'e mi nelci i ie mi nelci
05:35 < gleki> le'o doi la mensi i ko smaji
05:35 < akmnlrse> xe'e .i ie
05:36 < gleki> ei tavla la robin fa mi la'a
05:37 < gleki> fi CSS
05:37 < akmnlrse> xu nai lo fadni .admine cu zifre co stika
05:38 < gleki> Extension:CSS
05:38 < akmnlrse> je'e
05:44 < _mukti_> How would you say: That's a home (for somebody)?
05:44 < _mukti_> Your answer : ta zdani
05:44 < _mukti_> That's the wrong answer
05:44 < akmnlrse> zo gerku zo .arxokuna zo'u mi'u
05:45 < gleki> mi na jimpe
05:45 < akmnlrse> la .nulern.
05:45 < gleki> je'e
05:45 < gleki> i cati mi no'e nelci
05:45 < gleki> i mi pu tinju'i lo voksa nu casnu ca lo prulamdei
05:46 < gleki> i xu naku pilno la mudl e no drata
05:46 < gleki> i mi pu benji fi la nulern fe la'e di'e https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m1cqb-XjgSWTQZb-Ov8M72FBfrkBVg_CP5H7LjV575w/edit#gid=0
05:47 < gleki> i xu la nulern ca spofu
05:47 < gleki> i lo kibystuzi sa'e
05:48 < akmnlrse> mi snada co be co'a se jaspu
05:49 < gleki> ma judri
05:49 < _mukti_> And what does zdani mi mean
05:49 < _mukti_> Your answer : Something is a house for me
05:49 < _mukti_> That's the wrong answer
05:49 < akmnlrse> http://www.noolearn.2dservers.net/
05:49 < _mukti_> li'a mi na se bangu la .lojban.
05:49 < akmnlrse> li'a sai
05:50 < zipcpi> ma nabmi
05:51 < zipcpi> lu <zo gerku zo .arxokuna zo'u mi'u> li'u zo'u ki'ai .xafxaf.
05:52 < akmnlrse> Your answer is incorrect.
05:52 < akmnlrse> Raccoon Latin: Procyon lotor Deutsch: Waschbär
05:52 < akmnlrse> The correct answer is: lo gerku
05:52 < zipcpi> .xaf.
05:52 < akmnlrse> ja'o lo .arxokuna ka'e xafxafa
05:53 < _mukti_> .u'i
05:53 < akmnlrse> .i mi pu se jetmlu lo du'u ba'e murmura fa lo .arxokuna
05:53 < zipcpi> mi na arxokuna .i mi gerku
05:53 < akmnlrse> je'e zi'ocpi
05:56 < zipcpi> lo kerfa cu skari simsa lo .makaronis. zipcpi sei la'oi http://thunderthylacine.deviantart.com/art/Spheniscine-154152658
05:58 < zipcpi> .xaf.
06:00 < zipcpi> xu la'oi <Noolearn> so'imei jai nabmi
06:01 < zipcpi> xu ny xusra lo du'u lo'e arxokuna cu gerku
06:01 < zipcpi> u'i
06:02 < zipcpi> la'o gy Brian Wernham gy cu mo
06:02 < Vanlamigu> .oi
06:02 < Vanlamigu> xu mi nitcu tu'a lo na'e vitke jaspu
06:02 < zipcpi> oidai mo
06:04 < Vanlamigu> .oi ki'u ma nitcu tu'a lo jetnu cmene
06:04 < Vanlamigu> (to flalu cmene toi)
06:05 < Vanlamigu> xu .inda
06:05 < zipcpi> ma inda
06:06 < Vanlamigu> la nucilre
06:06 < zipcpi> na djuno
06:06 < Vanlamigu> doi pu'i se jaspu
06:06 < akmnlrse> simlu lo ka fadni co tolzdi
06:07 < akmnlrse> .i ku'i mi zgana
06:07 < Vanlamigu> xu do pilno lo do flalu cmene
06:07 < akmnlrse> na .i pilno lo kalsa
06:08 < Vanlamigu> uo mi ca se jaspu
06:08 < Vanlamigu> .i ti'e lo sidbo pe la .nucilren. zo'u lo tadni cu finti lo ctuka'u
06:09 < gleki> https://moodle.org/ frica fi ma
06:09 < akmnlrse> mi na viska tu'a su'o tadji be lo ka zbasu lo ctuka'u
06:09 < akmnlrse> .i la'a frica fi no da soi cabna
06:10 < Vanlamigu> la .mudyl. cu se pilno lo balcu'e soi ge'enmo
06:10 < akmnlrse> lo malmau be la mudle ku ku ji'a se pilno lo me mi moi ku mu'a
06:11 < gleki> ma noi me do moi
06:11 < akmnlrse> (to ja'a ka'e ku da malmau la mudle toi)
06:11 < akmnlrse> la tsurixi
06:11 < zipcpi> u'i
06:12 < Vanlamigu> za'a la boxna ctuka'u cu pagbu la .nucilren.
06:13 < Vanlamigu> .y lu ta zdani zo'e li'u naldra sei mi cilre
06:13 < akmnlrse> .u'a dai
06:15  * nuzba @ro_bot_: ロジバン トワ ジンコウゲンゴノヒトツ ノコトデス [http://bit.ly/1Lkhi0z]
06:16 < Vanlamigu> ge'e
06:17 < Vanlamigu> .i .ei la .braiyn. cu ciksi tu'a lo te frica
06:18 < Vanlamigu> .i ba'e ka'e plixau
06:19 < zipcpi> lo valsi be lo ka smaji bei lo jugbau cu sance simsa lo valsi be lo ka gerku bei lo mejbau
06:20 < zipcpi> .anjing.
06:23 < zipcpi> ba'anai le du'u go'i cu zdile zo'ei lo pu ckule pe mi
06:24 < akmnlrse> ko smaji doi B sei A cusku .i .xafxafxaf. sei B cmoni
06:25 < zipcpi> sa'e
06:37 < zipcpi> exp: +s .taiuan.
06:37 < mensi> (CU [C:taiuan VAU])
07:03 < zipcpi> lo mi zdani cu se fagri - I love IRC so much that nothing else matters u'i
07:40 < gleki> is there la .teris. with English parallel translation?
07:40 < gleki> oops
07:40 < gleki> mi bebna
07:40 < gleki> it's so short anyone can do it
07:42 < zipcpi> ie oi la .nulyrn. je'u so'imei jai nabmi
07:43 < zipcpi> ie oi la .nulyrn. cu je'u so'imei jai nabmi
07:45 < demize> gleki: Well, the original is at the bottom of the wiki page at least
07:46 < gleki> it's actually their first course.
07:46 < PrincessBecca> i'm on lesson 9 of the wave lessons and my brain doesn't hurt yet. i think this is a good sign
07:47 < PrincessBecca> much of it is review, but the last time i attempted this, it was killing my brain.
07:47 < PrincessBecca> and much of it isn't review.
07:47 < zipcpi> ny cusku ba'e lu do jifxu'a li'u jeku'i na jungau do le drani te spuda
07:48 < Vanlamigu> ie
07:50 < zipcpi> do jifxu'a .i jifxu'a .i jifxu'a~~~~~~~ sei la'oi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY
07:51 < PrincessBecca> u'i
07:53 < PrincessBecca> rafsi: jif
07:53 < mensi> zo jitfa se rafsi zo'oi jif
07:55 < zipcpi> coi durkavore
07:55 < durka42> coi
07:55 < durka42> mi tsuku lo ckule
07:59 < PrincessBecca> rafsi: tol
07:59 < mensi> zo to'e se rafsi zo'oi tol
07:59 < PrincessBecca> rafsi: li'a
07:59 < mensi> zo cliva se rafsi zo'oi li'a
07:59 < PrincessBecca> ua
08:07  * nuzba @cogas_uasanbon: oiとo'unaiってどう違うんですか？ — 意味論の整理をしている BPFK sections (http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Sections)では、        oi    Used to expre... http://ask.fm/a/c70159cc [http://bit.ly/1FDfv6S]
08:34 < zipcpi> Someone translate this to Lojban https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nx_elkMFA zo'o
08:35 < Ilmen> .title
08:35 < phenny> Ilmen: Hatsune Miku - Hatsune Miku no Shoushitsu -DEAD END- [PV with Romaji Lyrics] - YouTube
08:36 < zipcpi> "She" sings stupidly fast some parts :p
08:39 < Ilmen> .u'i
08:39 < durka42> I bet selpa'i can sing faster
08:40 < zipcpi> Though Japanese songs might be a good fit for Lojban translations. Lojban can be... not too brief sometimes :p
08:40 < zipcpi> Neither is Japanese
08:41 < zipcpi> But yeah I've seen some of selpa'i-'s songs lol
08:41 < rutytar> japanese also has the thing where every syllable is a consonant-vowel pair
08:41  * zipcpi nods
08:41 < rutytar> so they can pretty much meter however the fuck they want to and it works out
08:41 < zipcpi> Yeah that is one downside
08:41 < Ilmen> Except the moraic nasal and the geminated consonants
08:41 < rutytar> so for the rest of us trying to conform to said meters is really hard
08:41 < b_jonas> um, it doesn't quite work like that
08:48 < Vanlamigu> mi ba penmi lo prenu, poi pu tavla do, bu'u lo gusta
08:49 < Vanlamigu> Read it quickly. How long does it take you to realize the comma is not actually closing the relative clause?
08:49 < zipcpi> ku'o
08:49 < durka42> .oi
08:49 < Vanlamigu> (of course now that I warned you...)
08:49 < durka42> loglo staile
08:49 < zipcpi> Yeah I made that mistake on selpa'i-'s blog
08:50 < Vanlamigu> Yes, but it's funny how the brain just auto-inserts the ku'o upon seeing the comma
08:51 < durka42> yup!
08:51 < Vanlamigu> The same happens in speech when you make a pause
08:51 < Vanlamigu> or use a special intonation
08:52 < Vanlamigu> I'm afraid the same would happen to native speakers
08:52 < durka42> natlang conditioning
08:52 < rutytar> writing commas is probably an attempt to replicate the pause in text-only communication
08:52 < rutytar> ^ durka42
08:52 < durka42> yes
08:52 < Vanlamigu> Maybe Loglan got it right? :P
08:52 < durka42> and it's nearly impossible to avoid pausing when you see the comma
08:53 < durka42> but maybe a native speaker wouldn't have that conditioning...?
08:53 < b_jonas> I use dots for that
08:53 < b_jonas> I don't understand why commas would be better
08:53 < b_jonas> dots are already used for pauses, so why not those?
08:54 < durka42> in natlangs, commas are used for pauses, and we're conditioned to see it that way
08:54 < durka42> so it's like a textual illusion
08:54 < b_jonas> sure
08:54 < b_jonas> that's how you read commas
08:54 < b_jonas> but why would I _write_ commas instead of dots?
08:54 < durka42> did anyone suggest doing that? uanai
08:54 < b_jonas> what? I use dots all the time
08:54 < b_jonas> in long sentences
08:55 < Vanlamigu> Yeah that's like not the question right now.
08:55 < b_jonas> they are already defined to mean a pause
08:55 < b_jonas> why would anyone have to suggest anything?
08:55 < durka42> what are we talking about
08:56 < zipcpi> We're talking about how... natural the whole concept of famyma'o is (or perhaps no)... I think?
08:57 < zipcpi> ku'o ku'o ku'o
08:58 < zipcpi> mi ca .mugl. i'au zo'o
08:58 < rutytar> what's lojban for "has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like"?
08:58 < zipcpi> ku'o
08:59 < zipcpi> ... erm what is that supposed to mean
09:00 < b_jonas> lol
09:00 < b_jonas> that sentence looks strange
09:00 < rutytar> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqTpHhaKtL8
09:00 < b_jonas> "to use even go want to do look more like"
09:00 < Vanlamigu> For some reason I cannot reply to your comment durka42, the blog won't let me.
09:01 < b_jonas> rutytar: yeah, I don't understand it either
09:01 < durka42> Vanlamigu: maybe it limits depth of nesting
09:01 < Vanlamigu> Yeah maybe
09:01 < zipcpi> I suppose you could mash bits of sentences together without regard for context and perhaps just inappropriate famyma'o everywhere :p
09:02 < Vanlamigu> kinda shallow then though
09:02 < zipcpi> vau
09:02 < zipcpi> vauvauvauvauvauvau
09:02 < zipcpi> keikuvaukeikuvaukeikuvau
09:02 < zipcpi> ku'o
09:02 < Vanlamigu> That video... that sounds like something cirko would be good at translating :)
09:03 < zipcpi> toi'o toi'o toi'o ke'e ke'e vau kei ku'o vau
09:04 < Vanlamigu> What are you doing?
09:04 < zipcpi> Breaking all your computers zo'o
09:04 < zipcpi> Hey I bet if Lynne Truss spoke Lojban instead of English, she'd give out stickers with famyma'o on them. :p
09:05 < zipcpi> Although I don't see why you'd need toi'o; it's really there just for completeness
09:07  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: .i ganai do troci lo nu ciska lo natfe jbobau bo jufra gi lo te ciska ku se fagri [http://bit.ly/1LtjqE3]
09:07  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: .i ganai do troci lo nu ciska lo natfe jbobau gi lo te ciska ku se fagri [http://bit.ly/1PAXc8N]
09:10 < zipcpi> How funny is it that I keep thinking of some school somewhere going "I hope you're ready for your famyma'o and rafsi test tomorrow! *Awwwwwwww*"
09:10 < zipcpi> Mumble mumble grumble
09:11 < rutytar> "stop whining. kids in china have to learn eighty thousand characters"
09:11 < zipcpi> u'i
09:11 < b_jonas> no way
09:12 < b_jonas> not eighty thousand, at least not for typical people
09:12 < b_jonas> the literature experts may have to, but most people don't
09:12 < b_jonas> eighty thousand is riddiculous
09:13 < rutytar> is there a hyperbole attitudinal?
09:13 < b_jonas> yes
09:13 < rutytar> ba'u
09:13 < b_jonas> yes, that
09:16 < Vanlamigu> Rafsi are harder than Hanzi
09:16 < Vanlamigu> And less useful, so that adds to the challenge.
09:16 < Zarutian> is { pa jdini } correct for "one money" so to speak?
09:16 < Vanlamigu> (Because your brain constantly thinks "why the hell do I need those?")
09:16 < zipcpi> It means "one thing that is money"
09:18 < rutytar> Zarutian: http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/rupnu is this what you're looking for?
09:18 < zipcpi> If you mean to say "1 dollar" it would be "lo rupnu be li pa"; though I often just go with "pa rupnu" even if it may not be totally correct
09:18 < Zarutian> zipcpi: okay, how does one specify the amount of something then?
09:19 < zipcpi> There are various "unit" gismu, like rupnu for money, mitre/minli for length
09:19 < b_jonas> more like {lo pa rupnu}
09:19 < zipcpi> They tend to accept a number for their x2 place
09:19 < b_jonas> (meaning one rubel)
09:19 < rutytar> zipcpi: would "lo pa rupnu cu jdima lo xirma" be correct?
09:19 < Zarutian> {li} was probably what I was looking for in this regard
09:20 < zipcpi> Well rupnu refers to any local currency unit.
09:20 < b_jonas> rutytar: no, that's very cheap
09:20 < b_jonas> but yes, it's correct
09:20 < rutytar> valid, i should say, not correct
09:20 < Zarutian> well a dollar was much more back then!
09:21 < rutytar> maybe it has a lot of back taxes
09:21 < Zarutian> so {se li pa cu rupnu} is akin to say "1$"
09:21 < Zarutian> ?
09:21 < zipcpi> Or maybe it's bitcoin zo'o
09:22 < b_jonas> zipcpi: I think that's ungrammatical
09:22 < b_jonas> um
09:22 < b_jonas> sorry
09:22 < b_jonas> Zarutian: ^
09:22 < rutytar> still cheap by horse standards
09:22 < zipcpi> se doesn't work that way
09:22 < rutytar> so would a yen be rupnu or a fepni?
09:23 < zipcpi> It would be rupnu since it isn't grouped to anything larger
09:23 < Zarutian> I be wanting something in the {fa} stuff then?
09:23 < b_jonas> rutytar: rupnu probably
09:23 < Zarutian> {fe li pa cu rupnu} is getting a bit nearer to being correct?
09:24 < b_jonas> Zarutian: yes
09:24 < zipcpi> Yeah it would mean "1 dollar.". Though that's a bridi, so you'd have a hard time doing anything with it :p
09:24 < b_jonas> zipcpi: no hard time
09:25 < b_jonas> zipcpi: you can just say {fe li pa cu rupnu lo jdima} = the price mesures 1 in rubels
09:25 < zipcpi> Right
09:25 < Zarutian> well I am thinking about putting it down in a graphic of a bill in game (where the lojban will be written in orthography based on elijan script)
09:26 < zipcpi> Which game?
09:26 < Zarutian> one that I am still concept sketching.
09:27 < b_jonas> Zarutian: I think a bill would have the denomination named specifically, not just generic {rupnu}
09:27 < rutytar> the word rupnu seems verry strange to me
09:27 < Zarutian> I was thinking of something in same genre as Zelda, Chrono Trigger and other such RPGs only where you have to speak lojban to the characters.
09:27 < rutytar> do any other languages have a generic word for major money units which isn't the native currency?
09:27 < zipcpi> Well it's made with the same process as most other gismu are
09:28 < b_jonas> it would specifically say "dollars" or "rubels" or "zorkmids" or "galactic credits" and probably the name of the issuer (bank, king, country, whatever)
09:28 < b_jonas> rutytar: we have some slang for that
09:28 < b_jonas> isn't "buck" generic enough?
09:28 < zipcpi> Namely, take two cups of the Chinese word, one cup of the English word, half a cup of Latinate roots, and half a cup of assorted spices. Blend well
09:28 < b_jonas> I call currency units "buznyák" and their change units "batka" usually
09:29 < rutytar> but i don't think americans would call pounds or yet "bucks"
09:29 < b_jonas> so Euro is "buznyák" and cent is "batka"
09:29 < rutytar> *pounds or yen
09:29 < b_jonas> rutytar: no, instead cents get called pennies or something like that
09:29 < Zarutian> "fé" and "klink" is what is used where I am from
09:29 < b_jonas> so maybe penny is the generic term
09:29 < b_jonas> but Yen is also "buznyák", and so is a korona of any country
09:29 < b_jonas> and a pound or usa dollar too
09:30 < b_jonas> but other people use different slang
09:30 < zipcpi> Pour them into cookie trays exactly five letters wide, then back at 360 degrees
09:30 < zipcpi> *bake
09:30 < b_jonas> money units always have like lots of different confusing slang words, some of which go out of fashion
09:30 < b_jonas> I remember 100 forint was called "kiló" (an argot word) when I was young, but that was when it was worth a lot
09:30 < Zarutian> "mullah" is one I heard
09:30 < b_jonas> these days "kiló" is never used
09:31 < b_jonas> I think "rongy" is still used for 1000 forints sometimes
09:31 < b_jonas> oh, and the old two forint coin was called "bélás" for some reason
09:31 < b_jonas> I don't know why
09:32 < rutytar> b_jonas: in England, 1 pence was 1/240 lb. of copper. A "pound" was 240 pence, and "penny" was the name of a one pence coin
09:32 < Zarutian> but part of the humor of this game is to name/label stuff very generically
09:32 < b_jonas> Zarutian: gold pieces?
09:32 < b_jonas> isn't that generic enough?
09:32 < b_jonas> copper pieces for the change
09:33 < Zarutian> b_jonas: nope. Tokens that say "1 money" on them.
09:33 < b_jonas> a copper piece could be 1/10000 or 1/493 or any other fraction of a gold piece
09:33 < b_jonas> "1 money"? ok
09:33 < rutytar> b_jonas: When America created it's money system in the early 1800s the dollar the "cent" was made as a decimal alternative to pence, but penny stuck as the name for the low denomination copper coin
09:33 < b_jonas> rutytar: was that the first use of "cent"? or was it used in Europe first?
09:34 < Zarutian> b_jonas: just because so people will go "what?"
09:34 < b_jonas> nah, "1 money" is fine
09:34 < b_jonas> it works as an informal unit name fine
09:35 < rutytar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimalisation#Europe
09:35 < Zarutian> zorkmid would not fit into lojban without quoting?
09:35 < rutytar> my point is that "penny" isn't generic, it's slang specifically for formal colonies of england
09:35 < b_jonas> hmm, maybe it was called "centime" before?
09:35 < b_jonas> or were things called "centime" before they were decimized?
09:36 < rutytar> well i know there was originally half-cents and milles (1/1000 dollars)
09:37 < rutytar> i'm pretty sure cent comes from centi, so it wouldn't make much sense to call them that pre decimilization
09:37 < b_jonas> "make much sense" … naming doesn't always work like that
09:37 < b_jonas> but yeah
09:38 < zipcpi> Zarutian: Actually the new grammar allows for cmevla to be used the same way brivla are... the only downsides are that they have mandatory pauses and will not have a defined place structure.
09:39 < zipcpi> Oh and those old books that say "la .djan. klama"? Yeah that's wrong now. It's "la .djan. cu klama"
09:39 < b_jonas> zipcpi: nope, I don't believe in _that_ grammar
09:39 < Ilmen> Well they have the place structure "x1 is the one(s) called [cmevla]"
09:39 < b_jonas> it's very incompatible with the CLL grammar and can't be reconciled
09:39 < b_jonas> as in, you can't write texts that are compatible with both
09:39 < b_jonas> so in my grammar, no, you can't use cmevla in place of brivla
09:40 < zipcpi> You can if you put in all the cus *and* don't use cmevla that way
09:41 < b_jonas> zipcpi: no, that's not enough
09:41 < b_jonas> that helps for simple sentences, but not all
09:41 < akmnlrse> {ge'u}, {me'u}, avoiding implied {pe}
09:41 < b_jonas> that's one of those stupid grammar inventions that I'll NEVER accept
09:41 < b_jonas> NEVER
09:41 < zipcpi> But quoting them is just too onerous for things that have a *lot* of things that are difficult to fully Lojbanize, like Pokemon characters or even city names
09:41 < b_jonas> there's a lot that I can be potentially convinced about to at least tolerate
09:41 < b_jonas> but cmevla in place of brivla isn't
09:42 < b_jonas> just bite the bullet and put a {me} (or {me'au} or one of those other thingies if you prefer)
09:42 < b_jonas> zipcpi: you don't have to quote them. you can use cmevla, but after {lo} and similar gadri with different grammar than brivla.
09:42 < b_jonas> I use cmevla too.
09:42 < b_jonas> they are in the grammar.
09:43 < b_jonas> (pokémons are easy to lojbanize though. just refer to them by number zo'o.)
09:45 < b_jonas> wait, I haven't linked the right comic
09:48 < b_jonas> let me repeat
09:48 < b_jonas> I have my principles
09:48 < b_jonas> using cmevla in the place of brivla can't be reconciled with the CLL grammar, so it's
09:49 < b_jonas> one of those stupid grammar inventions that I'll NEVER accept ("http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html")
09:49 < Ilmen> Banjo
09:49 < Ilmen> mi morji
09:50 < Ilmen> lisri lo nu vecnu lo cevni
09:56 < zipcpi> ... wow I'm really behind on OOTS
09:58 < PrincessBecca> nau lo mi besna cu cortu
10:01 < rutytar> what was the word you folks were using for english grammar influence corrupting lojban?
10:01 < zipcpi> exp: +s zokmida
10:01 < mensi> (CU [Z:zokmida VAU])
10:01 < rutytar> malglix something i think
10:01 < Ilmen> rutytar: "malgli"
10:01 < zipcpi> malglixlu
10:01 < ldlework> malglico
10:01 < Ilmen> yeah there is some variety there
10:01 < ldlework> u'i
10:02 < zipcpi> Well malglixlu is the word I personally use, because xlura means influence and provides a useful second place for who committed it :p
10:02 < Ilmen> sure, as a lujvo "malgli" doesn't look quite appropriate, even though largely in use
10:03  * zipcpi nods
10:05 < rutytar> malglixlu is fun because of how hard it is to pronounce with an anglophonic accent, it's self-referential
10:05 < zipcpi> u'i
10:06 < durka42> zo malgli fegli mi
10:06 < b_jonas> I don't think I used any word for this
10:06 < durka42> .e'u zo malglikslu zo'o sai
10:06 < zipcpi> u'i doi durkavore
10:07 < b_jonas> u'i
10:12 < akmnlrse> ta'i ma cusku
10:12 < akmnlrse> lo simsa be lu «ro dable poi tcatobi cu dable lo zdolu» li'u fau lo nu vei pa je nai re roi cusku zo dable
10:13 < akmnlrse> .i ba'a nai su'o valsi poi jai curmi cu zasti .i mi na snada lo ka zvafa'i
10:15 < Ilmen> .oi .usku .e .o .izra .alsi
10:15 < zipcpi> ro dable goi dy poi tcatobi cu me'au dy  .yyyyy.
10:16 < akmnlrse> ro me'au lo ka dable goi dy cu li'o .i ie
10:16 < akmnlrse> *cu co'e li'o
10:16 < durka42> .y zo dable mo
10:17 < akmnlrse> nonselsmu
10:17 < akmnlrse> .i sa'u ka'e ca da zo broda co'a jai tolzdi
10:17 < durka42> ua
10:17 < durka42> xu zo deble je zo dible je zo doble je zo duble ji'a co'e
10:18 < akmnlrse> ge'e .i ka'e
10:19 < akmnlrse> durka42: .i casnu lo du'u ta'i ma kau cusku lo simsa be lu «ro dable poi tcatobi cu dable lo zdolu» li'u fau lo nu vei pa je nai re roi cusku zo dable
10:19 < durka42> xm
10:20 < durka42> xu zo no'a cu jai tcica
10:20 < durka42> ro tcatobi poi no'a cu dable lo zdolu
10:20 < akmnlrse> taftologi nibli
10:20 < durka42> na satci drani
10:20 < zipcpi> puca brilga .ije le sli'irti tovzo cu zgaire je gimbule bu'u lo uebza
10:21 < durka42> .i'e
10:21 < akmnlrse> pu cabrilga
10:21 < zipcpi> oi
10:21 < durka42> oi drani
10:21 < durka42> puca bri'ilga
10:21 < akmnlrse> ie
10:21 < zipcpi> puca briliga .ije le sli'irti tovzo cu zgaire je gimbule bu'u lo uebza
10:22 < durka42> no'i zo'o lo ka dable goi ko'a zo'u ro me'au ko'a poi tcatobi cu me'au ko'a lo zdolu
10:23 < durka42> zipcpi: banli .i .e'u mulgau gi'e gubgau
10:24 < zipcpi> ba'anai ju'ocu'i la .alis. pu se fanva
10:24 < akmnlrse> http://alis.lojban.org/
10:25 < durka42> ua
10:26 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jabberwocky
10:27 < zipcpi> su'o valsi na ca vlataidra i'au a'onai
10:27 < akmnlrse> .u'e mutce zunsna ce'o glaide .i tai gerku'e
10:27 < durka42> oi
10:27 < durka42> djaberuuoki ge'e
10:27 < akmnlrse> djabervoki
10:30 < gleki> that's an interesting question what to do with incorrect utterances in discussions on wiki pages. Both for English and Lojban utterances.
10:31 < zipcpi> Yeah should this be corrected?
10:31 < zipcpi> djaberuoki -> djabervoki
10:32 < zipcpi> exp: +s djabervoki
10:32 < durka42> yes
10:32 < durka42> that change was relatively recent
10:32 < mensi> (CU [Z:djabervoki VAU])
10:32 < gleki> I would correct all of them in no matter which language is incorrect. web.archive.org still contains archives. And Robin has backups of the tiki
10:32 < durka42> yes
10:32 < durka42> corrections are good
10:33 < gleki> Also sometimes they said something plain inciorrrect and the reply was "No it's incorrect Lojban, this is how you should say it"
10:34 < gleki> This "ma poi" thread ... Natlangs usually say not {ma poi broda} but {lo broda poi mo}
10:35 < zipcpi> mo'u ningau
10:35 < durka42> ki'e
10:36 < zipcpi> ua zo'oi zdarnio ji'a nitcu lo ka ningau
10:37 < zipcpi> vlakra fa zo zdani joi zo darno
10:37 < zipcpi> exp: +s zdarniio
10:37 < mensi> (CU [Z:zdarniio VAU])
10:40 < zipcpi> exp: +s ko le jubju cu rivmo'i
10:40 < mensi> ([KOhA:ko {LE:le G:jubju KU}] [CU:cu {L:rivmo'i VAU}])
10:41 < gleki> ca fleki ie djedi 
10:41 < gleki> ga'a mi
10:42 < zipcpi> Does the parser have a limit somewhere
10:42 < gleki> in RAM
10:43 < zipcpi> exp: +s i ko le frufengalu
10:43 < mensi> (I:i [KOhA:ko {LE:le Z:frufengalu KU}] VAU)
10:43 < zipcpi> uanai
10:44 < gleki> alta: i ko le frufengalu
10:44 < mensi> (i [{FA ko} {FE <le (¹frufengalu SF¹) KU>}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
10:45 < zipcpi> Well I manually checked it. Hope it's right now
10:45 < zipcpi> Fixed djabervoki and zdarniio
10:47 < durka42> seems to parse :)
10:55 < zipcpi> co'o
11:04 < navekko> Hello
11:05 < Vanlamigu> Hi
11:05 < navekko> I'm new to lojban ^_^
11:05 < Vanlamigu> Welcome!
11:05 < navekko> Thanks!
11:06 < navekko> I think it is a magnific language
11:06 < Vanlamigu> I think so too.
11:06 < Vanlamigu> When did you find out about it? And how?
11:06 < navekko> How long have you been learning?
11:07 < navekko> I find it a while ago
11:08 < navekko> found*
11:08 < Vanlamigu> I've been learning since 2009
11:08 < navekko> And when I first looked up it, I didn't like it at all
11:09 < navekko> Now, I can't believe how amazing it is
11:09 < navekko> But I found some difficulties
11:09 < Vanlamigu> If you're looking for learning material: http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Learning/en
11:09 < navekko> Thanks!
11:09 < Vanlamigu> This place here is the best place to practice
11:10 < navekko> coi ro do
11:10 < Vanlamigu> coi
11:10 < navekko> I don't understand xorlo or the articles
11:13 < gleki> {dansu} - to dance. {lo dansu} - "dancer/dancers"
11:13 < durka42> ba'o cliva
11:14 < durka42> ba'o xruti
11:14 < navekko> Hello again
11:16 < durka42> coi
11:16 < navekko> coi do
11:17 < Vanlamigu> doi la gleki ko rapsku
11:20 < gleki> {dansu} - to dance. {lo dansu} - "dancer/dancers"
11:21 < gleki> to o'u do na cpedu lo nu mi ra'apxu toi
11:22 < gleki> i lo ka sangarapa na bi'ai ka rapsku
11:23 < gleki> i lo nu go'i na bi'ai me'au lo go'i
11:24 < Vanlamigu> za'a so'i da jbovla lo ka rilpemsa'a
11:24 < Vanlamigu> .i rilpemsa'a .i rilpesa .i ra'
11:24 < Vanlamigu> ra'apxu .i sangarapa
11:24 < Vanlamigu> sanrapu
11:25 < Vanlamigu> doi la gleki .i xu do kau ctuca lo nintadni lo du'u lu go'i nai li'u se pilno
11:25 < gleki> zo sanrapu cu cmima xu lo JVS se sorcu
11:25 < Vanlamigu> na birti
11:25 < gleki> Vanlamigu: ca ti mi na ctuca i xu CC na tugni
11:25 < Vanlamigu> mi na djuno .i ku'i re re'u viska lu go'i nai li'u poi se cusku lo nintadni
11:26 < gleki> ca ti mi na nitcu lo simsa i ko mitysisku do'e lo girzu pe la fircku
11:27 < Vanlamigu> na tai vajni
11:27 < Vanlamigu> .i ta'o nai mi ca'o trajynei zo rilpesa
11:27 < Vanlamigu> ia
11:27 < Vanlamigu> .i ku'i ka'e cenba
11:29 < gleki> la'a mi bilga lo ka di'a favgau CC i ku'i mutce nandu ki'u lo nu mi cinmo makau
11:30 < Vanlamigu> mi bilga je fliba so'i da
11:31 < gleki> lo jbedetnunsla be la selckiku zo'u de'i ti'e li ly 5 dy 23
11:31 < Vanlamigu> ua
11:46 < Vanlamigu> la .navekos. pu zi sivni cusku fi mi fe zoi gy. But I can say "mi .navekos.? .gy .i ta'i ma spuda .i pe'i drani .i ku'i li'a no da cusku lo simsa
11:47 < Vanlamigu> .i ku'i ko cusku
11:50 < Vanlamigu> .i la .navekos. cu jungau mi lo du'u ri nelci L4B
11:50 < Vanlamigu> gi'e badri lo nu laldo
11:51 < Vanlamigu> .i .ei ningau L4B
11:51 < Vanlamigu> (to fa la su'o da toi)
11:58 < gleki> mi pu troci
11:58 < gleki> i mi fliba
11:58 < gleki> i binxo CC
11:58 < Vanlamigu> ie ie mi morji
12:03 < gleki> mi galfi jenai stika lo spofu gusni balji
12:13 < rutytar> is there an agreed upon order of letters in lojban, for sorting and the like?
12:13 < rutytar> or is english order assumed
12:15 < gleki> ASCII order probably
12:15 < durka42> which is first, au or a'u
12:21 < rutytar> gleki: 'Z' comes before 'a' in ascii
12:22 < gleki> rutytar: i modern Lojban capital letters are used rather for abbreviations and that's it
12:22 < gleki> *in modern
12:22 < rutytar> so it appears the ipa [o] doesn't even appear in midwest american except in [oʊ]
12:22 < rutytar> but they're still used, which makes ascii a bad choice
12:22 < durka42> american "o" is a diphthong, yes
12:23 < durka42> and we don't even realize it, which gives us a horrible accent when learning languages like spanish :)
12:23 < rutytar> so there no examples of lojban {o} in american english
12:23 < rutytar> *there's
12:23 < durka42> well maybe some regions
12:23 < durka42> not in my accent though, ju'ocu'i
12:23 < gleki> how is "raw" pronounced then?
12:24 < durka42> luckily there aren't really conflicting sounds in lojban, so [oʊ] should be intelligible as {o}
12:24 < durka42> "raw"? what does that have to do with [o]? :p
12:24 < durka42> "raw" is a diphthong I guess but it starts with {a}
12:24 < rutytar> gleki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel
12:24 < gleki> ɔ isnt a valid realization?
12:25 < durka42> sorry I need the audio chart, hold on
12:25 < durka42> mi to'e .ipacre
12:25 < durka42> .oi .irpacre
12:25 < rutytar> ɔ is a valid realization, but i'm trying to cover all valid realizations
12:25 < gleki> okay so in American it's rɑ: probably
12:26 < durka42> they both sound okay but it's the latter for me
12:26 < rutytar> gleki: rɑː
12:27 < rutytar> rɑ: is more like row without the ending ʊ
12:27 <@xalbo> “rot” sounds like {rat} to me. Whether that's exactly the same as “raw” is up to you.
12:27 < mensi> xalbo: cu'u la'o gy.Vanlamigu.gy.: About zo'epoi http://pastebin.com/rQR4jjbj | 2015-05-22T11:05:37.
12:27 < mensi> 979Z
12:28 < rutytar> i can only speak for midwest american :p
12:28 < durka42> nah "raw" is much more rounded
12:28 < durka42> we're not talking about the Egyptian sun god here :)
12:29 < gleki> xalbo: i converted that to mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=jbocre:_zo%27e poi
12:29 < gleki> speakers of Hawaiian would have much harder times understanding Lojban phonology
12:30 < rutytar> someone really needs to fix the way mw.lojban.org handles links
12:30 < durka42> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_zo%27e_poi
12:30 < durka42> oh no I am preserved in this conversation for perpetuity :(
12:31 < rutytar> durka42: welcome to the internet
12:31 < Vanlamigu> Yeah we made it into a wiki page since this topic keeps coming up
12:32 < durka42> would be great to have a TL;DR at the top
12:32 < rutytar> isn't "duh" pronounced [do]?
12:33 < durka42> ?
12:33 < rutytar> ipa [do]
12:33 < Vanlamigu> Yeah, but is the tldr? Whose opinion is the right one :P
12:34 < rutytar> i know whose opinion is the wrong one
12:34 < durka42> it's [dɜ] or [dɘ]
12:34 < durka42> Vanlamigu: at least a summary of the different camps, then
12:34 < durka42> I was _in_ the original conversation and I can't follow it
12:35 < Vanlamigu> Hummm
12:35 < rutytar> as i noob, i would really appreciate a summery of the different camps on different issues
12:35 < durka42> as a jbocre, go'i ra'o
12:35 <@xalbo> Vanlamigu: Well, I got in the final word, so I guess that makes me the right one :|
12:35 < Vanlamigu> I just cut it off at that point
12:35 < Vanlamigu> :)
12:36 <@xalbo> rutytar: English “duh” is Lojban {dy} (IPA /də/).
12:36 < Vanlamigu> I want to add a date, but would have to find the original log file
12:37 < Vanlamigu> [dʌ]
12:37 < akmnlrse> (to 2014-09-04 toi)
12:37 < Vanlamigu> ki'e rolju'o
12:38 <@xalbo> Rereading that conversation, I still don't understand fpcalep's views any more than I ever did. I mean, they make *no* sense to me. I would really like to understand, but I'm completely unmoved.
12:39 < Vanlamigu> I don't know what else fcpalep can do.
12:39  * durka42 is still not sure who Vanlamigu is but is pretty sure he is fpcalep
12:42 <@xalbo> Can you give any bridi where, for some predicates bu'a and bu'e, {zo'e noi bu'a cu bu'e}, {zo'e poi bu'a cu bu'e}, and {lo bu'a cu bu'e} are not all truth-conditionally identical?
12:42 < Vanlamigu> Then again, xorxes has been unable to get PC to understand his ideas for some 20 years, so I guess I'll just hang in there.
12:42 < durka42> the date is 2014-09-04
12:42 < Vanlamigu> Yes, akme told me
12:42 < Vanlamigu> Thanks.
12:43  * durka42 would also not mind such an example
12:43 < Vanlamigu> Added date and place.
12:43 < durka42> .i'o
12:47 < Vanlamigu> The point is that {zo'e noi broda cu brode} has {zo'e}  ("all" of them (though not necessarily distributively)) {brode}, while {zo'e poi broda cu brode} does not.
12:47 < Vanlamigu> That's all.
12:48 < durka42> "all" of *them* <— them = ?
12:48 < Vanlamigu> {zo'e}
12:48 < durka42> je'e
12:49 < Vanlamigu> The first {zo'e} might be just one thing, but the latter is most certainly more than one.
12:49 < durka42> because {poi} narrows a set while {noi} jungaus things about the set without changing its members
12:49 < durka42> (please excuse my use of the word "set")
12:50 < Vanlamigu> Right.
12:50 < Vanlamigu> But I don't know if that formulation is helpful (?)
12:50 <@xalbo> I'm sorry, but what is "the latter" there? Are you saying that {zo'e poi broda cu brode} means that there must certainly be more than one referent of {zo'e}?
12:50 < durka42> that's how I think about noi/poi, but I dunno if it's useful either
12:52 <@xalbo> So {lo mlatu poi blabi cu citka} is false if there's only one cat, even if it's white and eats?
12:52 < Vanlamigu> {poi} implies a non-singleton domain. Applying it to a singular constant implies (at least pragmatically) a restriction over instances of that singular referent (though it does not logically entail it)
12:52 < Vanlamigu> No that's a different sentence
12:52 < Vanlamigu> Add a ku before poi
12:53 <@xalbo> Point. {lo mlatu ku poi blabi cu citka}
12:53 < Vanlamigu> Yes, so what I said applies there.
12:53 <@xalbo> Ahh, pragmatic constraint instead of logical. That makes a bit more sense.
12:55 <@xalbo> {lo mensi be mi ku poi speni cu jibni} implies (pragmatically) that I have more than one sister, and that at least one is married and at least one is not married, even though in reality I have exactly one, she is married, and the statement is literally true.
12:56 < Vanlamigu> Yes, otherwise why would you use {poi}, a restrictive relative clause.
12:56 <@xalbo> Is that what you're getting at?
12:56 < durka42> "you're my favorite son!" "…I'm your only son."
12:56 <@xalbo> "<sadly>Stop reminding me."
12:57 < Vanlamigu> "You're the five greatest Lojbanists!"  "... we're the only Lojbanists."
12:57 < durka42> .u'i .u'inai
13:00 < durka42> co'o
13:00 <@xalbo> I think we're thinking of {poi} and {noi} somewhat differently. In particular, I feel like {noi} only adds extra information, but doesn't change the referents of anything else. But you're asking it to. {zo'e citka} and {lo mlatu cu citka} are very different things.
13:00 < Vanlamigu> co'o
13:00 < Vanlamigu> No, {noi} doesn't change referents.
13:01 < Ilmen> co'o cliva coi tolcliva coi cu'i norcliva
13:01 <@xalbo> {zo'e noi mlatu cu citka} seems to me give something rather different. That is, {zo'e citka .i lo go'i cu mlatu}.
13:01 < durka42> I would say those *are* the same, if it's obvious to everyone involve that we are taking about mlatues
13:01 < durka42> ko catlu lo mlatu .i citka
13:03 < Vanlamigu> Not a bad example, since there {zo'e} and {zo'e noi mlatu} do the same exact thing, because we know what {zo'e} is.
13:03 <@xalbo> {lo mlatu cu citka}, though, doesn't already assume that we were talking about cats beforehand. Among all the things that {zo'e} could potentially mean, it limits it to only those that mlatu. Therefore, {zo'e poi mlatu cu citka}
13:03 < Vanlamigu> And the same applies to the xorlo definition
13:04 < Vanlamigu> {zo'e} is not "everything in the UD"
13:04 < Vanlamigu> {zo'e} is what makes the bridi true.
13:04 < Vanlamigu> What you say sounds more like {ro da poi mlatu}
13:04 <@xalbo> Agreed.
13:04 < durka42> jetnu zei co'o
13:05 <@xalbo> I think we disagree about what {noi} does.
13:06 < Vanlamigu> How?
13:07 <@xalbo> I feel like {noi} only adds information, but doesn't get to change around the referent. So {zo'e noi mlatu cu citka} is only true if {zo'e citka} would already have been true in context, and additionally says, of that same contextually found {zo'e}, that it mlatu.
13:09 < Vanlamigu> Yes, I agree.
13:09 <@xalbo> Not that you pick a single {zo'e} based on both parts, but that the {noi} doesn't participate in the choice of {zo'e}, it only tells you more about it after you've already chosen it.
13:09 < Vanlamigu> Yes.
13:09 < Vanlamigu> I never claimed anything different.
13:11 <@xalbo> Then if {lo mlatu cu citka}, {zo'e poi mlatu cu citka} is necessarily true, and vice versa (even if {poi} seems to be misleading, it's still valid). But there are many cases where {lo mlatu cu citka} and {zo'e noi mlatu cu citka} diverge in meaning.
13:12 < ldlework> xalbo: is there an article like po'o that means 'other than'?
13:12 < Vanlamigu> na'e[bo]
13:13 < ldlework> {ko'a noi brode cu broda} == {lo brode cu broda} == {ko'a broda je brode}
13:14 < Vanlamigu> In the previous discussion, I mentioned that {lo broda} is only equivalent to {zo'e noi broda} if you already know that {zo'e} {broda}.
13:14 < ldlework> {ko'a poi brode cu broda} == {lo drata be lo brode cu broda} == {ko'a broda jenai brode}
13:14 < ldlework> oops
13:14 < ldlework> bleh
13:14 < ldlework> nm
13:14 < Ilmen> even worse, if "zo'e .olkai lo ka broda"
13:14 < Ilmen> :p
13:15 <@xalbo> And my point is that that makes using {zo'e noi broda} worse than useless. You've literally added nothing to the conversation (if you already know that {zo'e broda}), except to make things more confusing.
13:15 < ldlework> well
13:15 < Vanlamigu> But it's not something to say in a conversation as much as it is a definition.
13:15 < ldlework> its like a subtext
13:16 < Vanlamigu> It's trying to paraphrase {lo broda} into something that doesn't use {lo}
13:16 < ldlework> Especially if you already have a substantial description
13:16 < ldlework> like
13:16 < Vanlamigu> And in the context of the definition, we already know that {zo'e} brodas
13:16 < ldlework> "The monkey who always steals the straws from my drink"
13:16 <@xalbo> If we already know that {zo'e} brodas, then why prefer {zo'e noi broda} over just plain {zo'e}?
13:16 < ldlework> ko'a noi mi ro roi mi fraxu cu morji
13:17 <@xalbo> Why add the extraneous {noi broda} that we already know has to apply?
13:17 < ldlework> I wouldn't just
13:17 < ldlework> say
13:17 < ldlework> lo se fraxu be mi cu morji
13:17 < ldlework> pei
13:17 < Ilmen> maybe I could use a similar trick for defining {lo mlatu} = {lo co'e}
13:17 < Ilmen> zo'o
13:18 < ldlework> xalbo: pei
13:18 < Vanlamigu> It'd be funny to define {lo mlatu} as just {zo'e}. The {zo'e} tells us it's a constant, and the {noi}-clause makes it extra clear that the {zo'e}   (and {lo mlatu}) is satisfying {mlatu}
13:18 <@xalbo> ua nai
13:18 < ldlework> xalbo: you're saying, instead of {ko'a noi broda} just say {lo broda}
13:19 < ldlework> I'm saying, if ko'a is already defined as something meaningful, then the noi acts as a subtext, not the main (and usefully identifying) description reference
13:19 <@xalbo> No, I'm saying define {lo broda} as {zo'e poi broda} and be done with it.
13:19 < ldlework> oh sorry
13:19 < Vanlamigu> It's a meta definition. The {noi} is not restricting anything, just explaining to the person who wants to know what {lo} does
13:19 < ldlework> I didn't realize there was a deeper discussion
13:19 <@xalbo> They're true in exactly the same situations, and we don't need an extra "as long as {zo'e} already broda" metadefinition.
13:19 < ldlework> xalbo: what if the thing you're relativizing is already described?
13:20 < ldlework> IE, its still subtext
13:20 <@xalbo> That is a valid point.
13:20 < ldlework> xalbo: I think your point about definition is apt tho
13:20 < Ilmen> zo'e poi broda --> lo co'e poi broda ---> lo co'e je broda
13:20 < Ilmen> ie nai pei
13:20 < mensi> ba'e mi na tugni
13:21 < Ilmen> re'i la mensi
13:21 < Ilmen> .i ko sa'umnai cusku
13:21 < Vanlamigu> na ru'e drani
13:21 < Vanlamigu> lo co'e poi broda -> lo co'e je poi'i broda
13:21 < ldlework> xalbo: I think using zo'e, da, ko'a or any other unquantified thing with noi or poi is ultimately useless though like you were saying
13:21 < Vanlamigu> Else you get wrong alignments of x2 x3 etc
13:22 < Ilmen> .i'a
13:24 <@xalbo> So the problem with {zo'e poi broda} is that it implies (weakly, pragmatically) that there are other {zo'e} around that don't broda (even though it actually works either way). The problem with {zo'e noi broda} is that it breaks *entirely* if there are.
13:24 < Ilmen> at any rate for me {lo co'e je poi'i broda} ≠ {lo broda}, in most cases
13:24 <@xalbo> To me, that makes the former a far better choice for a definition than the later.
13:24 < ldlework> xalbo: ie
13:25 <@xalbo> Ilmen: Defining {lo} in terms of {lo} is ... co'e.
13:25 < ldlework> u'i
13:25 <@xalbo> co'e ge'e
13:25 < Vanlamigu> Different strokes. Perhaps you would prefer: {lo broda cu brode} == {ko'a broda .i ko'a brode}
13:26 < Vanlamigu> The {.i} is equivalent to {noi}
13:26 < ldlework> le co'e => lo co'e poi mi ka'e termi'u
13:26  * ldlework bajra
13:26 <@xalbo> .u'u mi cliva be ba zi bilga
13:26 < Vanlamigu> Using two sentences, you don't have to bother with relative clauses
13:26 < ldlework> xalbo: nice talking to you
13:27 < Vanlamigu> di'ai la xalbo
13:27 <@xalbo> I don't know how {ko'a} gets a value in that. If it's {zo'e goi ko'a}...I'd have to think about that.
13:27 < Ilmen> There a problem with {lo brodo cu brode} == {lo brode cu brodo} tho
13:28 < Ilmen> if there's maximality
13:28 < Vanlamigu> I mean, I'm not here to try to convince you that {zo'e noi broda} is an amazing way to define {lo}. I'm only explaining why it uses {noi}.
13:28 < Ilmen> lo ro brodo cu brode =/= lo ro brode cu brodo
13:28 < Ilmen> pei
13:28 < Vanlamigu> ie
13:29 < Vanlamigu> Did someone suggest "{lo brodo cu brode} == {lo brode cu brodo}" ?
13:30 < Ilmen> sorry, I'm only mildly attentive; if I say something irrelevant please simply disregard it
13:30 < ldlework> u'i
13:30 < Ilmen> :3
13:30 < ldlework> Ilmen: we need an attitudinal for that
13:32 < ldlework> I wonder if you could make a la jbogli
13:33 < ldlework> replace all the predicates with english glosses, etc
13:33 < ldlework> replace non-structure cmavo with english words
13:33 < ldlework> .i i see you vau
13:34 < ldlework> le sell ku sell lo se sell ku lo te sell ku
13:35 < Vanlamigu> http://goertzel.org/agi-13/Lojban_paper_v1.pdf
13:35 < ldlework> xu you want lo nu me cu eat some food
13:35 < ldlework> u'i
13:35 < ldlework> iacu'i
13:35 < Vanlamigu> If you're lazy, skip to page 4
13:37 < akmnlrse> the among you -th verb-follows however tag-push easy tag-pop the property-of understand place-3 lambda-it
13:37 < akmnlrse> sei la mensi ca da cupra lo simsa
13:38 < Vanlamigu> lo me do moi cu ku'i jai frili fai lo ka jimpe fi ce'u
13:38 < Ilmen> be lo simsa
13:38 < Ilmen> .e'u
13:38 < akmnlrse> .oi
13:38 < akmnlrse> ki'e
13:39 < Ilmen> ko klama lo zo soi mlana be la danre
13:39 < akmnlrse> vi'o
13:39 < Vanlamigu> xu mi jinga
13:39 < akmnlrse> go'i
13:40 < Vanlamigu> xu do se slabu lo citno ninmu poi pu zu finti lo lojbo skina
13:41 < akmnlrse> lo fau gi se zanru gi se te pinka be fi la .epkot. vau xu
13:41 < akmnlrse> y
13:41 < akmnlrse> su
13:42 < akmnlrse> .i lo voi la .epkot. cu fau gi zanru gi te pinka vau ke'a vau xu
13:42 < Vanlamigu> na tavla fi la fanmo jimte
13:42 < akmnlrse> na sruma tu'a la fanmo jimte
13:42 < akmnlrse> .i xu lo skina ba'o se vimcu
13:43 < Vanlamigu> go'i
13:43 < PrincessBecca> mi dansu fi'o kansa fe'u lo mi gerku
13:43 < Ilmen> .i'i dai
13:43 < akmnlrse> .i la'a pu lo nu co'a tadni cu kinzga
13:43 < akmnlrse> .i morji no da fi ku
13:43 < akmnlrse> vau ba'u ru'e
13:43 < Vanlamigu> ba'u mi morji ro da fi ku
13:44 < akmnlrse> mo
13:44 < Vanlamigu> mo ra'o
13:44 < akmnlrse> y
13:44 < Vanlamigu> si'au so'i da na se slabu la fanmo jimte .i https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_nKJW_KuK4
13:45 < Vanlamigu> .i pe'i melbi bacru
13:45 < Vanlamigu> .i melbi mupli lo se bacru jbobau
13:45 < Ilmen> mi na se slabu la krasi jimte .i ja'o dai no da ka'e rinka lo nu mi se slabu la fanmo jimte
13:45 < Ilmen> zo'o
13:46 < akmnlrse> ba'a nai ru'e lo nu ma kau se basna cu cunso milxe
13:46 < akmnlrse> zo'au la fanmo jimte
13:46 < Vanlamigu> ie .i na xusra lo du'u drani ja prane .i to'e ki'u nai melbi
13:46 < Ilmen> ua lerci pensi prenexo
13:47 < akmnlrse> ie
13:47 < Vanlamigu> .i ba'a nai mi pa roi jai gau viska fai lo noi na jboselsau ku'o re prenu la fanmo jimte .i je ra cusku lu ua .i lo jbobau cu melbi li'u
13:48 < Ilmen> selmaho: zo'au
13:48 < mensi> .i lu zo'au li'u cmavo zo'oi LA
13:48 < mensi> http://lojban.github.io/cll/6/2/
13:48 < Ilmen> əəəə
13:48 < Ilmen> da'i kanpe lo du'u sumtcita
13:48 < akmnlrse> la .ues. cu pilno tai tu'a lo sitna cmavo
13:49 < Vanlamigu> zo'au melbi skina
13:49 < Ilmen> je'e .a'u doi vy
13:50 < Vanlamigu> lo bi'u nai citno ninmu zo'u canci
13:50 < Vanlamigu> .i canci lo se sanji
13:51 < Ilmen> .ai mi co'a selsau
13:53 < Ilmen> xu xe fanva da
13:53 < akmnlrse> la fanmo jimte ku xu .i na xe fanva
13:53 < Ilmen> je'e .i'e
13:55 < Ilmen> ie melbi
13:58 < Vanlamigu> mi pu viska lo nu sudape la .8tcan. cu kucli tu'a lo skina pe lo bi'u nai ninmu
13:59 < Vanlamigu> .i rinka lo nu mi morji tu'a lo skina
13:59 < Vanlamigu> .i mi ba lo nu mi facki lo du'u ba'o canci cu co'a troci lo ka facki lo du'u mo kau
13:59 < Ilmen> xu da jbocme
14:00 < Ilmen> lo canci
14:00 < Vanlamigu> .i mi ze'a lo djedi be li so'o cu co'i nai fackytoi
14:00 < Vanlamigu> (to nu cipra pilno lu co'i nai li'u toi)
14:00 < Vanlamigu> .i no da jbocme
14:01 < Vanlamigu> .i so'i da voi mi pu snada lo ka facki ki
14:01 < akmnlrse> mi pu ralte lo lavdontu'u pinka vreji .i canci ka'ai lo se zerle'a poi laptope
14:02 < Vanlamigu> .oi sai dai
14:02 < Vanlamigu> .i ie za'a do pu ralte .i mi pu lercydu'e troci lo ka tcidu
14:02 < Ilmen> "Start by checking out some beginner's Lojban sites, learn the pronunciation first, then learn a new noun every few hours. Learn verbs when you have enough nouns to throw around."
14:02 < Ilmen> .u'i
14:02 < Vanlamigu> .i ca lo nu troci cu xa'o ba'o canci
14:03 < Vanlamigu> UAT
14:03 < akmnlrse> ma cusku
14:03 < Ilmen> ro moi lo pinka
14:03 < Ilmen> pe lo pa moi be la fanmo jimte
14:03 < Vanlamigu> za'a bu'o
14:03 < Vanlamigu> .i cizra sai .i la'a lo cusku cu djuno no da lo jbobau
14:04 < Ilmen> ja'o ie
14:05 < Ilmen> ta'o la cadgu'a pu finti lo melbi pixra pe lo virtu'ale jbogu'e
14:05 < Vanlamigu> ko cilre pa roi ro cacra be li so'o su'o pa cnino nanmu si .naun. .i ko cilre lo verba ca lo nu .y ju'i nai
14:05 < Ilmen> http://ldlework.com/jboguhe_night.png
14:06 < Vanlamigu> .i mi viska
14:06 < Ilmen> ua do ro da viska
14:06 < Vanlamigu> .i lo pa zunle tricu cu cizra mi
14:06 < Ilmen> io
14:06 < Vanlamigu> ko na ionmo .i ko uunmo lo nu mi ro da zgana
14:06 < Ilmen> je'e
14:07 < Vanlamigu> .i lo tricu cu banro OUT OF lo .y
14:07 < Vanlamigu> .i va'i lo tricu na sraji
14:07 < Ilmen> ma poi tricu
14:08 < Vanlamigu> lo zunle
14:08 < Ilmen> na viska lo zbepi pagbu
14:08 < Vanlamigu> .u'i lu ma poi tricu li'u
14:08 < Vanlamigu> .i ia do viska
14:09 < Vanlamigu> .i simsa lo bitmu
14:09 < Vanlamigu> .i ku'i no'e vajni .i lo tricu cu panra lo loldi .i na fadni
14:09 < Ilmen> xu lo pagbu be lo grana pe lo prenu
14:09 < Vanlamigu> .i lo fadni tricu cu troci lo ka se farna lo solri
14:09 < Vanlamigu> .i na grana .i tricu
14:10 < Ilmen> xu jimca lo zunle traji tricu
14:10 < Ilmen> ua nai
14:11 < Vanlamigu> ma jimca
14:11 < Vanlamigu> .i lo zunle traji tricu cu panra lo loldi .i xu do tugni
14:11 < Ilmen> mi viska lo pagbu be lo zvajbi traji tricu noi se jimca lo pinta
14:11 < Vanlamigu> .u'i .i pe'i na jimca .i stani
14:12 < Vanlamigu> .i .a'o mi naldra ganse
14:12 < Ilmen> y mi na viska lo du'u ma kau zunle lo se pixra .i ja'o mi na ka'e birti .i ku'i pe'i lo pinta je gapru cu jimca
14:12 < Vanlamigu> .i da'i jimca .i va'o cizra jimca
14:13 < Ilmen> .i lo poi'i simlu lo ka sepcau lo cmana salpo zo'u na tricu
14:13 < Vanlamigu> xu do tavla fi lo grana poi lo prenu cu bevri
14:13 < Ilmen> .i lo go'i cu crane lo xrula .e lo kerfa be lo prenu
14:13 < Zarutian> http://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/ <- looks perhaps like a likely candidate for lojban anity text generator, no?
14:14 < Ilmen> sa'e lo kerlo
14:14 < Ilmen> jenai kerfa
14:15 < Ilmen> lo jimca pe lo zunle traji tricu zo'u ie cizra
14:15 < Ilmen> .i ku'i na dukse lo ka cizra
14:15 < Vanlamigu> je'e je'e
14:15 < Vanlamigu> .i .o'u bu'o zo'o
14:16 < Ilmen> .i lo nu jibni viska lo xrula cu cizra zmadu .i lo so'i xrula cu pinfu pe'a lo mucti plita
14:16 < Ilmen> pe'a
14:16 < Ilmen> .u'i
14:17 < Vanlamigu> .y lol
14:17 < Vanlamigu> .u'i
14:17 < Vanlamigu> mi co'a ganse
14:18 < Ilmen> ca lo nu darno viska cu melbi .i ca lo nu jibni catlu zo'u cizra .u'i
14:23 < Vanlamigu> Zarutian: That's awesome
14:30 < ldlework> Vanlamigu: feel free to hop on the sim and make all the trees stand straight up!
14:30 < ldlework> :)
14:31 < Vanlamigu> I was merely wondering why that tree doesn't grow towards the sunlight.
14:31 < Vanlamigu> :)
14:31 < ldlework> Vanlamigu: honestly, when I was placing them I thought "Well, they're on hills they should be rotated like normals"
14:31 < ldlework> but I realize now that makes no sense and plants try to grow straight upwards :)
14:32 < ldlework> Vanlamigu: btw, if you wanna stay tuned to jbogu'e nuzba, you can hang out in #jboguhe
14:39 < Ilmen> banli
14:43 < Ilmen> "Constitution of the Netherlands and Hispanic Competition for Bilabial and Commonwealth Industry (Republican Constitution of the Extent of the Netherlands)"
14:44 < Ilmen> .u'i sai
14:44 < Ilmen> cupra lo banli cizra za'a
14:57 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:59 < Vanlamigu> .
16:07 < rutytar> would it be better to learn written lojban without learning how to read it, for the sake of speed reading?
16:08 < Vanlamigu> You mean without knowing how to pronounce it?
16:08 < rutytar> yeah, i guess
16:09 < Vanlamigu> I think that would reinforce bad habits that may be hard to undo. You'll forever speak Lojban with your native accent
16:09 < Vanlamigu> But learning Lojban pronunciation should be easy enough. You can learn it in 5 minutes
16:11 < rutytar> have you ever had a spoken conversation in lojban?
16:11 < Vanlamigu> Yes.
16:11 < rutytar> was it difficult compared to writing the same thing?
16:12 < Vanlamigu> Sometimes it takes a while to think of the right words, but it's never hard to pronounce anything.
16:12 < rutytar> it takes longer to thank than in writing?
16:13 < Vanlamigu> No, but speech is a faster medium.
16:13 < Vanlamigu> In writing you can take your time
16:13 < Vanlamigu> If you pause for half a second in speech, it's noticeable.
16:13 < Vanlamigu> If you pause while typing, nobody knows
16:13 < rutytar> i'a
16:13 < Vanlamigu> But talking is obviously faster than writing.
16:15 < rutytar> was this on the mumble server?
16:15 < Vanlamigu> Mumble and Skype
16:16 < Vanlamigu> We have voice chats every weekend
16:16 < rutytar> the people from this irc?
16:16 < Vanlamigu> And others
16:16 < rutytar> that's cool
16:17 < rutytar> i'd like to listen in, although i'm not anywhere good enough to participate presently
16:17 < Vanlamigu> Feel free
16:17 < rutytar> is there a time?
16:18 < Vanlamigu> Something like 2pm UTC ?
16:18 < Vanlamigu> Some weekends there isn't much going on, on others I was talking for well over six hours
16:19 < Vanlamigu> The japanese Lojbanists come in earlier, because it's late evening for them
16:19 < rutytar> are there lojbanists who don't speak english?
16:20 < Vanlamigu> Why yes. I think some of the japanese.
16:20 < Vanlamigu> There were also russians
16:20 < Vanlamigu> I think they stopped.
16:20 < Vanlamigu> Some of the french don't speak that much English
16:21 < rutytar> how do they learn? are there translations of the CLL?
16:22 < Vanlamigu> I think they learn from people who do speak English as well as their language.
16:22 < Vanlamigu> There is a japanese CLL (might not be complete), and I don't know how far they got with the french CLL
16:23 < rutytar> i'e
16:23 < Vanlamigu> The gismu list has been completely translated into Mandarin, Spanish, Russian, Hungarian, German (?), French (?), Esperanto
16:25 < rutytar> i wasn't sure about those because some of the things on jbovlaste seem pretty made up
16:25 < rutytar> have there been any attempts at a stable irl lojban community?
16:25 < Vanlamigu> hehe, it's a made up language
16:25 < rutytar> sure, but i could see four people in silicon valley having regular meetups, or something
16:26 < Vanlamigu> There are meetups here and there, now and then
16:26 < Vanlamigu> Montreal had (has?) a group, for example
16:27 < Vanlamigu> I don't think we've reached a critical mass yet
16:27 < rutytar> does lojban seem to be increasing in popularity?
16:28 < Vanlamigu> That's really hard to tell
16:28 < rutytar> it's a weird thing
16:29 < rutytar> it seems like an uphill battle to learn another natural language while the whole world is trying to learn english
16:29 < rutytar> and for the sake of being egalitarian, there's no reason anyone would use esperanto. the effort to prevent english from being the auxiliary language has pretty much failed
16:31  * nuzba @AmazonComm6: What Is Lojban?: .i la lojban. mo    値上しました    価格:1297円→1311円    5/23 0:25    http://apr.blauberg.net/pricelist?asin=0966028317 [http://bit.ly/1AktQF5]
17:26 < PrincessBecca> mi parolas esperanton
17:26 < PrincessBecca> la lojban na se bangu mi
17:27 < PrincessBecca> er
17:27 < PrincessBecca> la lojban na bangu mi
18:53 < phma> coi
20:56 < zipcpi> Wonder if there'll ever be a use for the SF pseudo-cmavo that we see in the alta parser
20:59 < zipcpi> mensi: doi Zarutian Actually if it's going to be a Lojban-speaking country/land I don't see why "rupnu" can't be their official currency. Or maybe "jboru'u" :p
20:59 < mensi> zipcpi: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.Zarutian.gy. di'a cusku da
21:40 < zipcpi> Hmm... when I proposed {koi'e} I didn't see a point of it outside of toi'e
21:40 < zipcpi> But it might be usable in constructs like {zo'o koi'e je'u ku'i}
21:40 < zipcpi> (I'm joking, but what I said is true)
21:41 < zipcpi> Otherwise it is ambiguous or at least confusing what je'u and ku'i apply to
21:57 < gleki> zipcpi: SF is only for glossing purposes
21:58 < zipcpi> Yeah I'm just rambling... about whether someone somewhere might be able to find a use for an actual famyma'o in that position :p
22:04 < zipcpi> Actually the problem is that it isn't precisely defined how UI-cmavo interact with one another. For example in {iu ro'o} most people assume that {ro'o} affects {iu}, even without a {toi'e}
22:07 < gleki> toi'e isnt used much and didnt exist sev. months ago
22:07 < gleki> and used used by many
22:07 < gleki> and ISNT used used by many
22:08 < zipcpi> I know
22:08 < zipcpi> I do kinda feel it is necessary for disambiguation though
22:08 < gleki> as for {ro'o} it's an interjection modifier
22:08 < gleki> jb:ro'o
22:08 < mensi> ro'o = ro'o [interjection modifier] — restricted physical body, ro'o cu'i — not oriented towards physical experience,
22:08 < mensi> ro'o nai — denying physical experience
22:08 < mensi> :oi nai ro'o kukte — Yum, yum, it's tasty.
22:08 < mensi> :ii ro'o cu'i ka'e kargu — I'm afraid it can be expensive.
22:08 < mensi> :ii ro'o nai mi na drani punji le tanxe — No, not that it requires physical work, but I'm afraid I might not put the box
22:08 < mensi> correctly.
22:08 < mensi> :Comment: used without an attitudinal to indicate focus of the speaker.
22:08 < mensi> :Related words: xadni
22:08 < zipcpi> Original CLL definition doesn't give anything to apply attitudinals to other attitudinals in an unambiguous manner
22:09 < gleki> modifiers modify intjerjections. Modifiers modify each other in a tanru way
22:10 < zipcpi> Yeah I suppose so
22:10 < zipcpi> {ku'i} is less clear though. It's defined as a discursive, not a modifier
22:10 < gleki> as for whether NAI/CAI/ro'V should be merged i dont mind. But not with "normal" interjections
22:11 < zipcpi> ro'V is in UI right now
22:13 < gleki> yes, i dont like it there.
22:13 < zipcpi> ie
22:13 < gleki> UI4 should be with NAI/CAI
22:14 < gleki> but merging all of them into UI super-cluster is undesirable on hyper-PEG levels (which some call "semantic analysis")
22:14 < gleki> *at
22:14 < zipcpi> Well technically it's a different "selma'o" on its own. iu nai ro'o and iu ro'o nai are parsed differently
22:15 < zipcpi> Same thing if you replace nai with cai
22:15 < gleki> exp: ui nai
22:15 < mensi> (ui nai)
22:15 < gleki> exp: ui ui
22:15 < mensi> (ui ui)
22:15 < zipcpi> I mean parsed differently by humans
22:15 < gleki> This is where you can see the lack of hyperPEG. They should be differentiated. currently they are not
22:15  * zipcpi nods
22:28 < zipcpi> I think NAI binds first, then CAI, then *ROhA
22:30 < zipcpi> Though I think currently usage is split between iuro'osai and iusai ro'o. Don't know how to search the corpus for that though
22:31 < zipcpi> And how to tell what is actually meant in each case
22:31 < zipcpi> But yeah that's what happens when there is a lack of system.
22:32 < zipcpi> malrarbau-type weeds-pe'a tend to grow
22:34 < zipcpi> Actually don't think UI4 is used that often... it's only important to "disambiguate" the regular attitudinals after all
22:41 < durka42> hmm I'm probably doing this search wrong
22:41 < zipcpi> coi durkavore
22:41 < durka42> I got zero results for UI UI4 CAI and one result for UI CAI UI4...
22:41 < durka42> http://korp.alexburka.com/#?cqp=%5Bpos%20%3D%20%22UI%22%5D%20%5Bpos%20%3D%20%22CAI%22%5D%20%5Bword%20*%3D%20%22ro%27%5Baeiou%5D%7Cre%27e%22%5D&stats_reduce=word&page=0&search_tab=1&search=cqp
22:42 < durka42> oh hm
22:42 < zipcpi> mi jmina zo malglikslu la jbovlaste i'au zo'o koi'e je'u ku'i
22:42 < durka42> it looks like in the korpora'ysisku UI-CAI pairs are glued together… weird
22:42 < durka42> .u'i .i'e
22:42 < durka42> I… think I understood that attitudinal chain!
22:43 < durka42> also I would probably never say such a thing aloud! :)
22:43 < zipcpi> u'i
22:43 < durka42> don't you mean {…koi'e je'u toi'e ku'i}? (oi)
22:44 < zipcpi> I know, I actually commented on my koi'e definition about that. Also that's what this whole "how to deal with the mess that is UI-cmavo applicability" thing is all about
22:46 < durka42> ok, figured out how to do the corpus search
22:51 < durka42> zipcpi: if you're interested in hard data :p I have some korpora-zei-sisku searches for you
22:52 < zipcpi> Oh?
22:52 < durka42> so, at korp.alexburka.com, in the Advanced tab you can paste stuff in
22:53 < durka42> one is: [pos = "UI"] [word = "r(e'e|o'[aeiou])_[cs]ai"]
22:53 < zipcpi> Ah, regular expressions
22:54 < durka42> the other is: [(word = ".*_sai" | word = ".*_cai") & pos = "UI"] [word = "r(e'e|o'[aeiou])"]
22:54 < durka42> (I built these searches in the Extended tab, but this way it's way easier to paste here)
22:55 < zipcpi> ... wow now this reveals a problem with UI5 too
22:56 < zipcpi> dai/(zai'a? never knew that one) isn't often used alone, but the others are.
22:56 < zipcpi> Well, se'i probably isn't often used alone either
22:57 < zipcpi> What a mess. oiro'e
22:59 < zipcpi> Yep, looks like my intuition is right; usage is split
23:00 < zipcpi> Oh... though UI + CAI + *ROhA looks more common than the other
23:00 < zipcpi> UI + *ROhA + CAI has 46 entries
23:01 < zipcpi> While UI + CAI + *ROhA has 185
23:04 < zipcpi> I suppose that that supports binding CAI more tightly then *ROhA. Then what comes next, *DAI?
23:05 < zipcpi> Complicating matters is that da'oi is placed in selma'o DOI but is meant to convert into *DAI
23:06 < zipcpi> Also does COI basically convert into UI?
23:06 < zipcpi> Might be important in edge cases involving {ki'ai}
23:07 < zipcpi> So we combined LE with LA, combined VUhU with JOI, combined all the sumtcita selma'o, but now we want to split UI into tiny pieces
23:10 < zipcpi> *DAI won't be isomorphic with UI5. Actually it'd only contain very few cmavo from that list.... probably just dai, se'i, and za'ai. I'm not sure about vu'e; the CLL use suggests it should also be in, but I can see vu'e being used separately
23:13 < zipcpi> And the discursives like ku'i are even more of a mess
23:13 < gleki> i think  K z S has problems with splitting compound cmavo. sometims it does, sometimes not
23:18 < zipcpi> I give up. I think other than perhaps defining *ROhA and *DAI nothing more definite can be said at this point of time. Let people use {koi'e} and {toi'e} to disambiguate if necessary
23:19 < gleki> btw, { ui (nai sai) } and {ui (sai nai)}. So CAI/NAI have equal priority
23:19 < zipcpi> Ah... uinaisai seems more natural to me though
23:21 < gleki> they have different meanings
23:21 < zipcpi> If they do I'm still correct that nai binds more tightly
23:22 < gleki> uanai
23:22 < zipcpi> (ui nai) sai = very unhappy
23:22 < gleki> { ui (nai sai) }
23:22 < zipcpi> Which also would mean the same thing in this case
23:23 < zipcpi> We might have to think of something where the difference in meaning would be clear...
23:23 < gleki> {ui sai nai = ui ja'ai sai nai}
23:23 < zipcpi> Yes, in which case nai bound more tightly than sai
23:23 < gleki> { ui [ja'ai] (nai sai) }  = very unhappy
23:24 < zipcpi> So does (ui nai) sai
23:24 < gleki> {ui (sai nai)} = {ui [ja'ai] (sai nai)} = not very happy
23:24  * durka42 wonders if that's actually borne out in usage
23:25 < zipcpi> lol That's the thing... if it's hard to figure out how to search for these constructs, it's even harder to go in and guess what is meant by each usage
23:26 < durka42> je'u
23:26 < durka42> mi tatpi co'o
23:26 < zipcpi> co'o
23:29 < zipcpi> Ah yes... then there's *BUhO possibly. Not sure how to define that though
23:29 < zipcpi> And it would probably only contain bu'o
23:37 < gleki> UI5, bu'o and fu'e are different cases
23:38 < zipcpi> *DAI won't contain all of UI5.
23:38 < zipcpi> In fact it probably won't contain that many cmavo at all
23:38 < zipcpi> Because although UI5 are lumped together as modifiers, only a few of them are actually used that way
23:39 < gleki> huh?
23:39 < zipcpi> mu'a, dai is often used as a modifier
23:39 < zipcpi> But zo'o is often used alone
23:39 < gleki> zo'o is pretty useful as a modifier.
23:40 < zipcpi> Yeah but I think {ui zo'o} becomes too ambiguous that way
23:40 < gleki> why?
23:41 < zipcpi> Are you joking that you're happy, or are you really happy *and* joking?
23:41 < gleki> it's a modifier. so that second one is {zo'o ui}
23:41 < gleki> zo'o alone = ge'e zo'o
23:42 < gleki> although {ge'e} seems to have changed the meaning thru misusage
23:42 < zipcpi> Not sure I believe in that... what would {ge'e zo'o} even mean
23:43 < zipcpi> zo'o in usage typically applies to text, not other attitudinals
23:44 < gleki> ge'e is the same as zo'e but for UI
23:45 < zipcpi> I know but when I say "ai mi daspo lo jbobau vau zo'o" I don't apply zo'o to some unspecified emotion, I'm applying it to the entire sentence
23:48 < gleki> Okay, then try replacing ge'e with ju'a
23:48 < gleki> attitudinals are not only about emotions.
23:48 < gleki> and thus {cinmo} is not only about emotion. again bad mapping to English.
23:49 < zipcpi> Does that deserve zo'o being lumped in with *DAI though? Perhaps {zo'o dai} still means something
23:49 < gleki> {ju'a zo'o dai}. Why cant it be meaningful
23:50 < zipcpi> What happens when multiple *DAI interact then?
23:50 < gleki> like in {ui dai dai}?
23:50 < zipcpi> Is it (ju'a zo'o) dai or ju'a (zo'o dai)?
23:50 < zipcpi> I'm not sure what {ui dai dai} would mean
23:51 < gleki> (ju'a zo'o) dai
23:52 < zipcpi> Hmm... guess we can work with that
23:56 < zipcpi> So to recap, priority order: NAI, CAI, *ROhA (=UI4), *DAI (=UI5 tentatively, right scoping), then *BUhO ?
23:56 < zipcpi> Er, left scoping, sorry
23:57 < gleki> it's probably better just to make rules for expansion into Deep Ralbrivla Structure
23:58 < zipcpi> Not sure if that's possible given that we still haven't defined how some of the borderline ui-cmavo like ku'i interact
23:58 < zipcpi> Not to mention that realis vs irrealis attitudinals problem
23:59 < gleki> ku'i is an independent cnima'o IMO
23:59 < gleki> and realis vs irrealis problem doesnt exist for me
--- Day changed Sat May 23 2015
00:00 < zipcpi> Oh is it because mi gleki lo nu... and mi pacna lo nu... isn't that much different syntactically, even if it is quite different philosophically?
00:00 < gleki> different semantically
00:00  * zipcpi nods
00:04 < zipcpi> I gotta rest. co'o
01:07 < selrun> coi
01:09 < Ilmen> coi
01:12 < selrun> xu do kanro .i ma fasnu
01:14 < Ilmen> kanro ki'e .i pu zi cikna .i zukte lo vrici
01:17 < selrun> cinri .i mi ba za sipna .u'i
01:22 < Ilmen> ua je'e
01:23 < Ilmen> .i mi zvati lo stici ropno .i ja'e bo vi cerni
01:26 < selrun> mi xabju lo gugde nuzlo
01:28 < selrun> ja'e li reno pi'e reze tcika
01:29 < Ilmen> mi zo'u li pa no pi'e re so
01:29 < Ilmen> tcika
01:30 < selrun> ua je'e
01:30 < Ilmen> .i lo nuzlo cu kaijbi loka zvati dukti lo fraso noi mi zvati
01:33 < selrun> ju'o kaijbi
01:42 < Ilmen> la cadgu'a cu troci lo ka zbasu lo virtu'ale cibycimde jbogu'e kei sepi'o lo tutci pe la re moi nunji'e
01:55 < selrun> xu je'e .i mi ze'u djica lo nu troci la re moi nunji'e
02:00 < selrun> mi tatpi .i mi cliva fa'a lo ckana po'e mi .i a'o xamgu nicte
02:01 < Ilmen> co'o do
03:33 < vensa> coi la ilmen .i xu do ba'o ganzu lo lojbo nu voksa tavla ba lonu mi pu cmima
03:33 < Ilmen> coi la vensa
03:33 < Ilmen> .i za'o ganzu .i ku'i mi pu benji no notci ca lo cabjeftu
03:34 < Ilmen> .i ku'i mi ba jundi la .mambl. to'e mu'i nai
03:34 < vensa> je'e .i mi pu na viska lo cnino notci bu'u le me la gugl girzu
03:35 < gleki> xu do doi la vensa di'i voksa tavla la ilmen e lo drata
03:35 < Ilmen> je'u mi no roi benji su'o notci la .gugl.girz.
03:35 < vensa> na di'i go'i .i ku'i so'uroi go'i
03:35 < Ilmen> doi la gleki .i la vensa cu so'o roi kansa .i ku'i ze'a lo masti cu na kansa
03:35 < vensa> ie
03:35 < vensa> oise'i
03:37 < Ilmen> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban-soudan/y0YvUItExQs
03:37 < Ilmen> yy
03:37 < Ilmen> laldo za'a
03:37 < Ilmen> ca nau cu pilno fa mi'a lo drata kibyse'u
03:38 < vensa> je'e
03:38 < Ilmen> «lu .i .ai co'a lo se tcika be li pa re pi'e ci no bei lo xavdei poi bavla'i bei UTC cu jundi fa mi la zbaga ku noi kibyse'u la .mambl. je noi basti la .metl.bankyr. ku'o te zu'e lo nu vokta'a fo lo jbobau
03:38 < Ilmen> .i va'o lo nu do djica lo nu do mi'a jbobau vokta'a kansa zo'u .e'e do selplibregau la .mambl. gi'e co'a jundi la zbaga
03:38 < Ilmen> .i judri fa ti →  [ zbaga.ax.lt:64738 ] li'u»
03:39 < vensa> ti'u ma le ca nu jmaji cu fasnu
03:39 < Ilmen> mi pu na benji su'o notci ke'u ca lo cabjeftu .i ku'i mi ba jundi ca lo fadni noi co'e li pa re pi'e ci no
03:39 < Ilmen> to UTC toi
03:40 < Ilmen> .i xu mapti do
03:40 < vensa> xu bazi lo mentu be li reno
03:40 < Ilmen> ba za lo cacra be li pa pi'e mu no ji'i
03:41 < vensa> ua
03:41 < Ilmen> xu lerci dukse
03:41 < vensa> la'a mapti
03:41 < vensa> na go'i
03:42 < vensa> ku'i la'a lo mi cifnu ba na'e sipna iseki'ubo ba na mapti
03:42 < vensa> mi'o ba viska
03:42 < Ilmen> sipna ca ma to mi co'u satci morji toi
03:43 < vensa> na satci sipna
03:43 < Ilmen> je'e
03:44 < vensa> li pa pa bi'i li pa ci ji'i
03:44 < Ilmen> je'e
03:44 < vensa> xu so'o drata cu djica lonu kansa
03:45 < Ilmen> mi na djuno .i la .niftyg. cu dikni jundi .i ja'o mi kanpe lo nu la'a sai la .niftyg. cu kansa
03:46 < Ilmen> to ri ponjo jbopre toi
03:46 < vensa> a'u
03:47 < Ilmen> .i .e'u troci lo ka nerkla lo kibyse'u kumfa kei xoi cipra
03:47 < vensa> zo xoi ki'a
03:48 < Ilmen> .y cipra cmavo .i simsa zo poi gi'e ku'i cnegau lo mulno bridi .enai lo sumti
03:48 < vensa> ua
03:48 < vensa> jw'w
03:48 < vensa> je'e
03:48 < vensa> ba troci
03:48 < Ilmen> lu do sanga xoi melbi li'u dunli lu fasnu fa lo nu do sanga poi melbi li'u .a lo simsa
03:49 < Ilmen> to lo nu sanga cu melbi toi
03:52 < vensa> simlu loka sazri
03:53 < PrincessBecca> cerni coi do ro .i ma melbi sanga .i au mi tirna
03:53 < gleki> how do we say "gesture"? dont suggest {corci}.
03:54 < gleki> also i need "mouse gestures". what's that?
03:54 < gleki> nu muvdu ?
03:55 < PrincessBecca> xu do fanva la .ubuntus. la .lojban.
03:55 < gleki> mi fanva la vivaldis
03:55 < PrincessBecca> ui
03:56 < PrincessBecca> {xu ti} https://vivaldi.com
03:56 < gleki> go'i
03:57 < PrincessBecca> ua
03:57 < gleki> i sa'u mi pilno lo sampu staile
04:00 < PrincessBecca> xu do cusku lo se du'u do nelrai lo kibro tutci poi sampu
04:01 < gleki> mi pilno lo sampu ke lojbo staile be lo xe fanva
04:01 < PrincessBecca> ua ui
04:04 < PrincessBecca> la'a ru'e lo du'u go'i sidju mi lo nu mi cilre fi la lojban
04:04 < PrincessBecca> s/sidju/cu sidju
04:08 < PrincessBecca> ua mi tolcau lo ckafi
04:08 < PrincessBecca> au*
04:12 < PrincessBecca> nau
04:22  * nuzba @freneziozino: lo ti pemci cu    pilno la lojban poi mi    ca jimpe vau .ui [http://bit.ly/1dqygQv]
04:29 < _mukti_> ue
04:29 < gleki> lo ralju papri pe le uitki ca'o zenba lo ka fegli
04:30 < _mukti_> coi la gleki
04:30 < gleki> coi la mukti
04:30 < gleki> i za'a JVS ca'o zenba lo ka se cfila xokau vau u'i
04:31 < _mukti_> .i mi zanru lo cnino zoi zoi icons zoi
04:31 < gleki> mi co'u favgau CSS pe le uitki  i za'adai la guskant ca ca'a turni
04:32 < _mukti_> .i mi za'u re'u stidi lo nu do muvgau da poi srana la lojbangirzu lo cnita
04:32 < _mukti_> su
04:32 < _mukti_> .i mi za'u re'u stidi lo nu do muvgau da poi srana la lojbangirzu ku'o lo cnita
04:33 < gleki> ainai mi favgau lo ralju papri i la guskant cu jmina da pe ji'e lo nu mi jimpe me'i rau de
04:35 < _mukti_> ue lo nuzbu cu se ciska bau lo jbobau
04:35 < PrincessBecca> is it acceptable to say {mi tavla fo lo glice}, since x4 of tavla is expecting a language?
04:35 < _mukti_> ie .i'e
04:35 < gleki> lo glico
04:36 < PrincessBecca> je'e
04:36 < gleki> all cultural gismu end in "-o"
04:36 < PrincessBecca> cool
04:39 < _mukti_> Ok, I guess we're writing front page news in lojban now. Which is cool. Although it's now difficult to even find the English version.
04:40 < _mukti_> But on the whole I like this direction. A good step towards a more international feel.
04:42 < gleki> the news must be localizable as everything else i.e. via {{int:{{.. transcluding. although Twitter and reddit feeds should be excluded from non-English versions
04:42 < gleki> Japanese tweets should somehow be used for Japanese version
04:43 < _mukti_> Yes, it's a pity there's no easy way to filter tweets on language
04:43 < gleki> a separate app is needed
04:45 < gleki> that would detect languages in tweets and generate rss feeds from them
04:46 < _mukti_> I'm not sure the change to the twitter feed is a net positive, though. Not sure it makes sense to include tweets with 로지반 or ロジバン on the English home pate.
04:46 < _mukti_> s/pate/page/
04:47 < _mukti_> As a result of this change, I can't make any sense of the current tweets. So rather than get the impression that lojban is something people are talking about on twitter, I just ignore that part of the page.
04:47 < demize> Somehow {... bangu be mi} sounds nicer to me than {... bangu mi}, hmrf..
04:47 < gleki> yes, Japanese tweets should also be excluded from English news
04:48 < gleki> demize: language *of* me?
04:48 < demize> *shrug* No particular meaning implied, it just feels better somehow.
04:49 < demize> Hmm, seems the twitter search API has a way to specify language
04:49 < demize> Wonder how accurate that is
04:49 < gleki> so anyway i hope that guskant will make the front page better and at the same time viewable on mobile devices.in the old LMW it was all nice but with these "right sidebar" HTML/CSS patches it all went weird
05:00 < demize> gleki: If I made a small thing that generated language-specific RSS feeds using the search API, how often would you like it to be updated? Not sure about the API limits so updating it on each request might not be too good.
05:01 < gleki> demize: once a day. and please publish the code so that we can contact Robin to place it on his servers if its not RAM intensive
05:01 < demize> "Search will be rate limited at 180 queries per 15 minute window for the time being" hmm.
05:01 < demize> gleki: Sure.
05:02 < demize> How many results would you want? Just three like on the front page currently, or a bunch more?
05:03 < gleki> demize: does it matter? myou may ake it a variable the value of which is specified in the config file
05:03 < demize> Well, depending on how many results would be wanted it might be needed to add support for parsing more than one page of content.
05:03 < demize> Though I doubt that /that/ many results would be needed I guess.
05:05 < gleki> make it 3 then
05:08 < nejni-marji> coi
05:09 < zipcpi> coi
05:09 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_Attitudinals_and_UI-cmavo_-_time_for_a_split%3F
05:14 < gleki> usually UI-cmavo means the same as attitudinals
05:14  * zipcpi nods
05:14 < zipcpi> Just trying to make it clear
05:15 < nejni-marji> doi la zipcpi mi tugni
05:16 < gleki> actually it makes your proposal sound blurry. you want to reorder subselmaho of some attitidunals. you dont spli UI cmavo and attitudinals
05:16 < zipcpi> OK
05:16 < zipcpi> How do I redirect the title
05:16 < gleki> "move"
05:17 < gleki> in the upper toolbar
05:17 < nejni-marji> If we really want more accurate attitudinals, we should make parentheses for them, as well as an attitudinal-forethought-connector. zo'o sai .u'i
05:17 < zipcpi> The WYSIWYG editor sometimes bugs out for me
05:18 < zipcpi> That's what {koi'e} is :p
05:18 < gleki> oh really. the use an older one
05:18 < zipcpi> But it doesn't have a move button
05:18 < zipcpi> Still can't find a move button
05:19 < gleki> can u see "..."?
05:19 < zipcpi> Oh found it
05:19 < nejni-marji> Does {zo'o} bind onto other UI
05:19 < zipcpi> It's technically in the same sub-selma'o as dai
05:20 < zipcpi> So under my proposal yes it will be in DAI
05:21 < gleki> yes, {zo'o} is an interjection modifier
05:21 < nejni-marji> zipcpi: {.i koi'e .ei .au koi'o zo'o renro lo ti dakfu lo bitmu} for "I should+want to throw this knife at a wall, heh." ?
05:21 < zipcpi> Perhaps so :p
05:22 < zipcpi> Actually it's toi'o
05:22 < zipcpi> Share a selma'o, share a famyma'o, them's the rules
05:23 < nejni-marji> so {koi'e ge'e toi'e}?
05:24 < zipcpi> Hmm not sure what you intend by that
05:24 < nejni-marji> I mean, {toi'e} closes {koi'e}?
05:24 < zipcpi> toi'o
05:24 < zipcpi> toi'o close koi'e
05:24 < nejni-marji> Yeah
05:24 < zipcpi> toi'o also closes toi'e
05:24 < nejni-marji> I keep saying the wrongn things but my brain understands
05:25 < zipcpi> :p
05:27 < vensa> mi ca voksa kumfa zvati
05:27 < nejni-marji> ma kumfa
05:27 < vensa> bu'u la mymbl
05:28 < nejni-marji> je'e
05:28 < zipcpi> Oh mumble? If I go there take it easy on me though; I've not done spoken Lojban before, and I still have to look up a stupid number of words
05:28 < zipcpi> Still treating Lojban more like a math puzzle than a language
05:28 < nejni-marji> .i na djica co gasnu co drata zdanykansa tolsipnybi'o
05:28 < nejni-marji> I've not done spoken lojban often
05:28 < nejni-marji> or rather, _heard_ lojban
05:29 < nejni-marji> I speak it a lot, but mainly to myself or to glipre
05:29 < nejni-marji> poi na jimpe co smuni
05:29 < vensa> xu do doi la ilmen cu jundi
05:29 < Ilmen> mi jundi
05:29 < nejni-marji> And I'm also really distracted anyway by trying to install an OS
05:30 < Ilmen> .i mi nitcu lo ka ze'i zukte da .i mi ba zi xruti ku'i doi la vensa
05:30 < vensa> i'e
05:34 < vensa> oi lo mi tixnu puzi cikna binxo
05:41 < Ilmen> di'a jundi
05:46 < zipcpi> ... hm is the call over?
05:47 < Ilmen> zipcpi: it's via mumble
05:48 < Ilmen> but if want we may switch to Skype instead
05:48 < akmnlrse> seems like the same SSL bug selrun had
05:48 < Ilmen> which one?
05:48 < akmnlrse> <161:(-1)> Connection closed: Error during SSL handshake: error:1408A10B:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_CLIENT_HELLO:wrong version number [13]
05:48 < zipcpi> I kept getting "remote host closed the connection"
05:48 < Ilmen> I'm on the Zbaga server
05:49 < akmnlrse> zipcpi: which version of the client do you have?
05:49 < zipcpi> mutce laldo laldo u'i
05:49 < Ilmen> zbaga.ax.lt:64738
05:49 < zipcpi> ei la'a mi ningau
05:49 < Ilmen> ^ this is the server
05:49 < akmnlrse> 1.2.4 and 1.2.8 work for me
05:50 < akmnlrse> haven't tried others
05:50 < Ilmen> I'm using the 1.2.4
05:51 < _mukti_> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/3692724
05:52 < _mukti_> {la meris ba'o co'a sevzi tolmipri va'o lo nu se jibri}\
05:52 < zipcpi> ... is that a literal translation?
05:52 < _mukti_> I don't read {va'o lo nu se jibri} as "at work"
05:52 < akmnlrse> .oi se'i
05:52 < nejni-marji> en: jibri
05:52 < mensi> jibri = x1 is a job/occupation/employment/vocation (a type of work regularly done for pay) of person x2. |>>> Working
05:52 < mensi> for another (= selplijibri).  See also briju, gunka, te jerna which is employment specifically for pay and not
05:52 < mensi> specifically for another, te pilno which is employment not necessarily for pay and not necessarily regular or lasting
05:52 < mensi> but for another, se gasnu and se zukte for incidental activities. |>>> officialdata
05:52 < Ilmen> I'd say "jibri gunka
05:52 < Ilmen> "
05:52 < zipcpi> Oh it isn't... it means "reveal a secret"... I think
05:53 < gleki> _mukti_: we have a google spreadsheet with all Tatoeba sentences. they need to be tagged and then i will mass upload tags to the actual website. wish join the team of taggers?
05:53 < gleki> btw today is selckiku's birthday
05:53 < _mukti_> gleki: I can't promise to do much, but I'd accept an invite
05:53 < akmnlrse> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Md0pojdcO3EVf3LQPHXFB7uOThNvTWszkWd5T4YhvKs/edit?pli=1
05:53 < Ilmen> wa
05:53 < zipcpi> Oh cool... he's not here though
05:53 < akmnlrse> zvati la jbosnu
05:54 < Ilmen> ji'a ma'a ka'e mrilu
05:57 < gleki> Ilmen: xu do se slabu le gugle gredile pe la tato'ebas
05:58 < Ilmen> ja'a
06:13 < Ilmen> mi'a ca'o voksnu doi la vensa (to ku'i ko na cinmo lo ka kansa bilga toi)
06:14 < gleki> la'a mi ba voksa tavla la braiyn za lo menu be li ji'i reno
06:14 < Ilmen> ua
06:45 < demize> gleki: https://ptpb.pw/RIOT.xml is what an initial demo thing produces. comments?
07:00 < gleki> demize: you may try creating a test page in the wiki
07:06 < PrincessBecca> mi plino la .vivaldis. fi'o bangu fe'u lo lojbo
07:07 < PrincessBecca> er
07:07 < PrincessBecca> s/plino/pilno
07:07 < PrincessBecca> is there a specific modal for bangu?
07:08 < zipcpi> "Say, would an "underhanded Lojban" contest be good? That is, something that's really dodgy to say but also hard to pick up."? What, abuse of omitted famyma'o or weird place structures to say something that really means something bad?
07:10 < PrincessBecca> mi pilno la .vivaldis. bau lo lojbo
07:11 < PrincessBecca> bau,,, good one to know
07:26 < gleki> {mi pilno la vivaldis pe lo lojbo} i would say,  attaching {bau} to Vivaldi
07:35 < zipcpi> pe bau ?
07:35 < gleki> oops
07:35 < gleki> oise'i
07:35 < gleki> was distracted
07:35 < gleki> {mi pilno la vivaldis pe bau lo lojbo} i would say,  attaching {bau} to Vivaldi
07:35 < gleki> although even the first is fine, just more vague.
07:35 < akmnlrse> (to xu ca'o casnu la .nulern. toi)
07:35 < gleki> ba'o casnu
07:36 < gleki> i no vajni cu nuzba
07:36 < akmnlrse> xu su'o cinri cu nuzba
07:36 < akmnlrse> ja'e
07:36 < akmnlrse> si je'e
07:36 < gleki> ai gau mi ba djuno fa do'o
07:38 < gleki> I told Brian that a course should have "measure your abilities" test like it's done for Wlingua or Duolingo, it should have the ability to range issues/questions from easy ones to more advanced ones.
07:38 < gleki> currently i dont see that
07:39 < zipcpi> Yeah and it definitely shouldn't just tell you "you're wrong" based on not entering the exact same answer he entered, then lock you out of the lesson
07:39 < akmnlrse> go'i sai
07:39 < gleki> Also I told him that manually making up wrong answers is tiresome
07:40 < gleki> And the correct answer was "ti zdani zo'e"
07:40 < gleki> Multiple correct answers arent supported there which was also told by me.
07:40 < gleki> to him.
07:40 < gleki> se tavla mi by
07:40 < akmnlrse> juxryme'a fa lo lojbo vau li'a
07:41 < gleki> ie ie i seki'ubo mi puzi fanva
07:41 < akmnlrse> .i la medmraize cu curmi tu'a lo cmalu cfila pe lo te spuda .i .ei la mudle cu kakne lo simsa
07:41 < gleki> also i told him that case insensitive answers should be allowed
07:42 < gleki> akmnlrse: ue i jetnu i ku'i mi ca cinmo lo nu ca ti na kakne so'i da  i seki'ubo su'a mi senpa tu'a la nulern
07:43 < akmnlrse> ie .i pu kanpu lo zmadu be lo ka frica lo fadni ke mudle mupli
07:43 < gleki> kanpe gi'i kancu
07:43 < akmnlrse> .i se ditcu lo barda fa lo nu bregau
07:44 < akmnlrse> (to kanpe toi)
07:44 < gleki> ie i mi na jimpe i la nulern cu bregau ma i xu ca frica la mudle
07:50 < zipcpi> la malmla du ma
07:51 < zipcpi> sa la malmla cu du ma
07:53 < Zluglu> en: malmla
07:53 < mensi> [< mabla mlana ≈ Execrable side] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
07:53 < mensi> malmla[5878], malmlana[7917], mablymla[8008], mablymlana[10047]
07:54 < zipcpi> bu'u la .mambl. mi pu tavla lo me la malmla .i ku'i mi na viska ri bu'u lo drata
08:07 < PrincessBecca> http://i.imgur.com/3ZW1xIF.jpg
08:10 < gleki> technically both sentences mean the same
08:10 < PrincessBecca> blah
08:10 < gleki> "Who wants to change?" vs "Who wanta to be changed?" ?
08:11 < gleki> i dont remember the original now
08:11 < PrincessBecca> the original is just "who wants change?" "who wants to change"
08:12 < zipcpi> Maybe the first should be lo nu binxo and the second should be lo ka galfi, but that lacks the "same word" impact
08:12 < gleki> i'd use {cenba} here since {galfi} is actually "to change 2 into x3, to turn x2 into x3"
08:12 < gleki> i'd use {cenba} here since {galfi} is actually "to change x2 into x3, to turn x2 into x3"
08:13 < akmnlrse> another option: {ma djica lo ka galfi}, {ma djica lo ka gafse'i}
08:13 < gleki> {ma djica lo nu cenba} vs. {ma djica lo ka cenba}
08:13 < zipcpi> Hey galfi... I should use that. Probably better than bixygau
08:13 < akmnlrse> or cenba, cenba seems better
08:13 < zipcpi> cenba isn't agentive either
08:14 < gleki> {ma djica lo nu cenba} vs. {ma djica lo ka cenba} = "Who wants changing" vs. "Who wants that he/she changes" literally
08:14 < zipcpi> You'd need gau ko'a cenba or ko'a cnegau
08:14 < zipcpi> Ah yes
08:14 < PrincessBecca> ah ok
08:14 < zipcpi> I was going off a completely different track instead of still thinking about the comic
08:16 < PrincessBecca> that was what i was going to put originally except with galfi instead of cenba... but i got confused by the technical definition of ka
08:17 < zipcpi> Well yeah it's a little opaque, but ka essentially is a property-abstraction predicate, where [ce'u] (lambda) takes the place of *who/what* the property applies to.
08:17 < zipcpi> So lo ka ce'u cenba: The property of something/someone changing
08:18 < zipcpi> ce'u automatically fills the first open place if it's omitted
08:18 < demize> gleki: https://ptpb.pw/mg8z are the languages they support searching for, hmm..
08:18 < PrincessBecca> so "who wants the property of changing", equivalent to "who wants to change"... i buy that
08:19 < gleki> demize: english, japanese, spanish, russian, chinese. enough for me! did you want lojban? :) well, we have vreji for that
08:19 < demize> Lojban would have been neat, but I sadly think that it will be a long time until they support that in the API.
08:19 < demize> Anyway, right now, adding a new language to the generator should just be adding three lines to the config
08:20 < gleki> PrincessBecca: {ka} is more for infinitives, yes. cant recommend anything for you to read except the Crash Course. I dont remember any other sources right now. the official definitions of cmavo are cryptic.
08:20 < demize> something like '[fo]\nshort = fo\nlong = FooBar'
08:20 < PrincessBecca> i'm currently reading the Wave Lessons
08:20 < PrincessBecca> it's very useful but i haven't gotten to ka yet
08:20 < gleki> demize: vreji uses for its logs only sentences that have at least X% of grammatically valid Lojban words in them unless im mistaken
08:21 < PrincessBecca> i remember ka from your intro but it was a little too non-technical for my comfort... whereas the official definitions are too technical
08:21 < demize> Oh right, need to add a config var to specify the output directory
08:32 < demize> Hmm, they have both Chinese Traditional and Chinese Simplified, but not sure if a search can be done for both at once.
08:34 < gleki> for that i think you should use a converter from Traditional to Simplified eliminating Traditional Chinese completely.
08:34 < gleki> s/converter/preprocessor/
08:34 < gleki> like it's done in Tatoeba.org
08:36 < demize> I'm not quite sure how to integrate that easily though, because I don't really want to make the script very complex. If there's some good python lib for it I guess I could add a flag to the config file for chinese and when it's time to fetch the chinese it will fetch the same amount of statuses from both, convert traditional to simplified, then sort by date and return the newest ones
08:37 < gleki> just all Traditional character have to be converted to their simplified equivalents
08:38 < gleki> maybe in future we will be able to create an autogenerated Traditional Chinese version of LMW
08:38 < gleki> I think something similar is done for some wikipedians, a Serbian one probably
08:38 < gleki> (that has two alphabets)
08:40 < demize> Hmm, seems wikipedia has chinese and chinese classical
08:41 < demize> Didn't know they had a classical version, heh
08:41 < demize> Hmm, there's Serbian and Serbo-Croatian
08:42 < gleki> just Serbian with two alphabets i think
08:42 < gleki> some conversion tool if i remember correctly
08:42 < gleki> Cyrillic to and from Latin
08:44 < zipcpi> The main problem is that there is no one-to-one correspondence... simplified merges some traditional characters
08:47 < gleki> then we can only do it one way then
08:48 < gleki> what was the original question?
08:48 < gleki> then just treat both of them as just Chinese
08:48 < gleki> no matter what version the tweet is using
08:48 < demize> So I should just fetch both, merge them into a single list, and then sort them by date?
08:49 < gleki> i guess so
08:50 < demize> Doesn't matter to me personally, as long as native speakers would be happy.
08:51 < zipcpi> Of course, they do many things with computer algorithms these days; there are probably ways to attempt to incorporate contextual information when translating simplified -> traditional... probably Bayesian
09:08 < demize> Hmm, twitter search API returns nothing for Chinese.
09:08 < demize> (Same query as the twitter link on the frontpage)
09:11 < gleki> quite possible.
09:11 < gleki> no one tweeted a thing about Lojban in Chinese!
09:12 < demize> That feels odd somehow.
09:12 < demize> :p
09:13 < gleki> try searching the whole Twitter for Chinese tweets
09:13 < gleki> anyway i think Japanese and English would be enough for the beginning
09:13 < demize> Got any specific phrase to try searching for?
09:15 < demize> Tried searching for '他共' (taken from the wikipedia frontpage) and that worked.
09:17 < gleki> i m not surprised. we have almost nothing for Chinese except L4B and gimste
09:18 < demize> Nothing for Russian either, but I get results for English, Spanish, and Japanese
09:18 < gleki> and i wouldnt pay much attention to this. We actually have nothing promotable even for English
09:18 < gleki> demize: try Portuguese
09:18 < demize> Hehe
09:19 < gleki> When CLL 2.0, something CC, muplis and renwed chrestomaty for Lojban are finalized then we can talk
09:19 < gleki> When CLL 2.0, something like CC, muplis and renwed chrestomaty for Lojban are finalized then we can talk
09:19 < demize> results for portuguese, yeah
09:19 < gleki> so portuguese, spanish english and japanese.
09:19 < gleki> oh maybe french
09:21 < demize> Hmm, nope
09:22 < Ilmen> ta'o doi la gleki la zipcpi gau mi co'a cmima lo vokta'a kumfa pe la .skaip. ge'u .e lo kumfa pe la .nulyrn. i ku'i la zipcpi soi simlu cu na ka'e viska lo ralju ke lojbo kumfa
09:22 < Ilmen> sei cizra
09:22 < gleki> ko cusku da pe ne'i pe'a lo ralju kumfa
09:22 < Ilmen> mi pu troci
09:23 < Ilmen> .i ku'i snadycau sei simlu
09:24 < Ilmen> .i ba'o zi troci krefu .i ku'i la'a simsa fi lo ka fliba
09:24 < gleki> mi zgana o nu la zipcpi pu ja'a cusku
09:25 < Ilmen> do'e ma
09:25 < akmnlrse> sei ralju kumfa [5:56:29 PM] Spheniscine Kynosoura: coi
09:25 < Ilmen> ue
09:25 < Ilmen> ua mi viska
09:25 < gleki> ua bu'o ca ti mi morji
09:25 < gleki> i ie srana lo skaipe ciste
09:25 < gleki> i fadni
09:25 < gleki> i javni
09:25 < Ilmen> je'e
09:25 < gleki> i cizra
09:26 < gleki> i ie cizra
09:26 < gleki> i ku'i no da ka'e se stika
09:26 < Ilmen> lo temci flecu ro da cikre zo'o
09:26 < gleki> ko cusku di'u la mikrosoft
09:32 < demize> gleki: https://github.com/kyrias/bano has a working version
09:33 < demize> Oh right, forgot to add a requirements.txt
09:33 < gleki> will you tell about it in the mriste yourself?
09:33 < demize> Sure
09:34 < gleki> pls mention that it is for using with LMW as well
09:34 < nejni-marji> coi ru'e
09:51 < demize> gleki: sent
10:03 < PrincessBecca> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinji_language
10:07  * nuzba @freneziozino: {ue u'e} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinji_language #lojban [http://bit.ly/1F2IBI1]
10:28 < gleki> demize: banli
10:46 < gleki> la robin ca surla gi'e va'i de'a ca'a se jibri
10:50 < gleki> i zo nalgundei pu jai se stidi
10:57 < Ilmen> .y la .robin. jo'u zo surla zo'u jo'a pei
10:58 < Ilmen> ue fraso bu'u la ckule
10:59 < gleki> mi na birti lo nu zo nalgundei xamgu lujvo
10:59 < gleki> i na djedi
10:59 < gleki> i nalgunditcu
10:59 < Ilmen> .i'e
10:59 < gleki> i nalguncitsi
11:00 < Ilmen> zo nalguntei ka'e mapti si'a gi'e sance simsa zo nalgundei
11:00 < gleki> en:vacation
11:00 < mensi> nalgundei [< na'e gunka djedi ≈ Not work full day] = x1=d1 is a period of x2=d2 non-working days/vacation days/holidays
11:01 < mensi> for worker x3=g1 at job x4=g2
11:01 < gleki> i still want a tag for zenba/jdika
11:01 < gleki> ze'ai/ji'ai?
11:02 < gleki> en:ji'ai
11:02 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:02 < gleki> en:ze'ai
11:02 < mensi> ze'ai = [ZEhA] time tense interval: an unspecified amount of time
11:02 < gleki> oi
11:02 < gleki> en: ze'ai
11:02 < mensi> ze'ai = [ZEhA] time tense interval: an unspecified amount of time |>>> Used to express a duration without specifying any
11:02 < mensi> subjective notion about its length. May typically be used in a question when the subjective notion is not known. See
11:02 < mensi> also ze'a, ze'i, ze'u, ze'e, za'ai |>>> vensa
11:02 < gleki> uesai
11:02 < Ilmen> zo zilzena zo zenba zmadu
11:02 < gleki> en:zilzena
11:02 < mensi> zilzena = x1 is a property of a number/amount increasing by amount x2
11:02 < Ilmen> ne'u lo zilzena ka'e la'a ni zei sumti
11:02 < Ilmen> *je'u
11:03 < gleki> lu fi'o se zilzena li'u xamgu da'i
11:03 < Ilmen> .i mu'a lu lo ni mi certu cu zilzena li'u
11:03 < gleki> en:za'ai
11:03 < mensi> za'ai = [ZI] time tense distance: an unspecified distance in time
11:04 < gleki> zo zi'e e'u doi lai cekitaujaus
11:07 < gleki> en:ji'ei
11:07 < mensi> ji'ei = [UI5] animate - inanimate
11:07 < gleki> en: ji'ei
11:07 < mensi> ji'ei = [UI5] animate - inanimate |>>> See also jmive. |>>> durka42
11:07 < gleki> cinri i mi pu stidi lo simsa
13:56 < Ilmen> coi
14:39 < isd> .i coi rod
14:39 < isd> *rodo
14:41 < Ilmen> coi
14:42 < isd> .i doi la Ilmen mo
14:43 < Ilmen> mi tcidu lo srana be la .blendyr.
14:43 < Ilmen> noi samselpla
14:46 < isd> .a'u
14:47 < Ilmen> sa'u la cadgu'a cu finti lo virtu'ale je cibycimde jbogu'e
14:47 < Ilmen> sepi'o lo tutci pe la re moi nunji'e
14:49 < Ilmen> .i ku'i mutce lo ka kunti ba'a dai
14:50 < Ilmen> .i ku'i simlu lo ka mapti gaurtcini lo nu mi milxe co kelci la .blendyr.
15:02 < isd> .i mi pa kelci la .blendyr.
15:02 < Ilmen> lu pa kelci li'u sumti
15:02 < Ilmen> .i pa roi xu
15:03 < Ilmen> (pa kelci = one player)
15:04 < isd> * .i mi pu kelci la .blendyr.
15:05 < Ilmen> je'e
15:07 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:07 < Ilmen> .i .ai sipna fa mi
15:09 < isd> .i co'o
16:19 < navekko> coi ro do
16:32 < rlpowell> Brief ooutage.
16:39 < rlpowell> Should be back up shortly.
17:38 < _mukti_> Is someone working on the web site?
18:40 < pimlu> coi
18:41 < pimlu> .i pluka fa lonu jefydiknalgundei
18:41 < pimlu> lici
18:47 < _mukti_> mi se pluka
18:50 < pimlu> .ui .i xu do zukte su'o cinri ca jy pe lici
18:51 < pimlu> .i mi ba vitke la .smisoni,yn. noi muzga
18:58 < _mukti_> ua
18:59 < _mukti_> .i mi plotu lo nu surla
18:59 < _mukti_> s/plotu/platu/
19:16 < rschulman> coi ro do
19:18  * nuzba @baban: http://lojban.org　落ちてる？いつからだろう？ [http://bit.ly/1Gwc8PD]
19:20 < idyn> coi ro do
19:23 < idyn> mi na baupli lo jbobau ze'u
19:24 < idyn> xu jbobau farvi
19:26 < idyn> xu lo jbobau ku farvi*
19:26 < idyn> xu lo prenu ku zvati
19:30 < idyn> Hello?
19:30 < idyn> *tumbleweeds*
19:38 < idyn> But seriously
19:38 < idyn> Anyone want to talk?
19:40 < ldlework> coi idyn
19:40 < idyn> mi surbi'ova'u
19:40 < idyn> coi
19:41 < ldlework> xu pamoi lo nu vi zvati
19:42 < ldlework> za'a jboka'e
19:42 < rlpowell> Back.  Fixing.  Sorry.
19:44 < ldlework> doi idyn ju'i pei
19:44 < idyn> Okay
19:44 < idyn> I'm not that great at Lojban, and haven't been on in months
19:45 < idyn> Are you asking if I'm the first one to speak Lojban?
19:45 < idyn> I'm confused
19:45 < idyn> doi Idlework
19:45 < ldlework> idyn: I'm asking if (something) is the first event of being present here
19:45 < ldlework> "first time being here?"
19:45 < idyn> Ah
19:45 < idyn> No
19:45 < ldlework> idyn: lets play the marking game with that sentence
19:46 < idyn> I've been here before, rather frequent in the past.
19:46 < ldlework> [] for sumti, <> for selbri, {} for bridi
19:46 < idyn> okay
19:46 < idyn> ...?
19:46 < ldlework> what're you confused about?
19:46 < idyn> Do you want be to mark the sumti, selbri and bridi?
19:46 < ldlework> Ye.
19:46 < ldlework> Yes.
19:48 < idyn> {xu <pamoi> [lo nu vi <zvati>]}
19:48 < ldlework> Okay, be more recursive
19:48 < ldlework> mark every possible term
19:49 < idyn> ...?
19:49 < idyn> xu, lo, nu, and vi, are not selbri, bridi, or sumti
19:49 < ldlework> idyn: "vi zvati" creates a selbri, for example
19:49 < idyn> Oh
19:49 < idyn> Right
19:50 < idyn> {xu <pamoi> [lo nu {vi <zvati>}]}
19:50 < idyn> There.
19:50 < ldlework> You've marked it as a bridi, rather than a selbri
19:50 < ldlework> Which is half nice, because both exist there, don't they?
19:51 < ldlework> <vi zvati> is the selbri term of the bridi created by the nu
19:51 < idyn> vi denotes something happening in a certain place. It just floats around. Should it be considered part of the selbri?
19:52 < ldlework> idyn: it creates a new selbri term
19:52 < ldlework> It doesn't just float
19:52 < ldlework> here's my interpretation {xu <pamoi> [lo <nu {<vi <zvati>>}>]}
19:53 < idyn> Okay, I don't think "nu" should be part of the selbri
19:53 < ldlework> it definitely is
19:53 < idyn> I completely understand "vi" I was just not entirely on board
19:53 < idyn> Please explain.
19:53 < ldlework> with hidden terminators: {xu <pamoi> [lo <nu {<vi <zvati>> (vau)} (kei)> (ku)] vau}
19:54 < ldlework> idyn: the entire purpose of nu and all cmavo in the NU selma'o is to transform a bridi-term into a selbri-term
19:54 < idyn> OH
19:54 < ldlework> NU BRIDI kei => SELBRI
19:54 < idyn> Right
19:55 < idyn> I'm so used to putting "lo" before it that I forgot
19:55 < ldlework> Indeed. A consequence of this is that you can do strange things like
19:55 < idyn> Like I said, I'm rusty.
19:55 < ldlework> ko'a nu broda kei ko'e
19:56 < ldlework> well
19:56 < ldlework> ko'e shouldn't really be there
19:56 < ldlework> that's just TOO confusing :)
19:56 < idyn> So...
19:56 < ldlework> but {ko'a nu broda kei} says that ko'a is the event of broda-ing
19:56 < idyn> XD wut
19:57 < ldlework> rather than {ko'a broda} which says that ko'a is something that broda's
19:57 < ldlework> ko'a nu do citka lo plise ku kei
19:57 < idyn> So
19:57 < ldlework> "ko'a is the event of you eating an apple"
19:57 < ldlework> :)
19:57 < idyn> I get what you were trying to say now
19:57 < ldlework> strange, but the grammar allows it
19:58 < idyn> Plus I have some revived understanding
19:58 < idyn> Man, I've been learning Esperanto this entire time.
19:58 < ldlework> usually we use NU to 'objectify' bridi's so we can use them as sumti
19:58 < idyn> It's nice, but Lojban is more fun.
19:58 < ldlework> IE, leaving them as selbri is strange
19:58 < idyn> Yeah
19:59 < idyn> But, not that strange
19:59 < ldlework> Well semantically
19:59 < ldlework> Grammatically it isn't strange at all
19:59 < ldlework> its a simple transform of one type to another
19:59 < idyn> [nu] makes a bridi mean "X1 is the event of [INSERT BRIDI HERE]", correct?
19:59 < ldlework> yes
19:59 < ldlework> but its strange for x1 to be filled explicitly
20:00 < ldlework> IE, when you use this new event selbri as an actual selbri
20:00 < ldlework> do nu ro da spofu
20:00 < ldlework> "You are the event of everything's destruction"
20:00 < idyn> I AM THE EMBODIMENT OF DEATH
20:00 < ldlework> haha right
20:01 < ldlework> {mi nu morji} is sort of intimidating I guess
20:01 < ldlework> err
20:01 < ldlework> morsi
20:02 < idyn> Alright.
20:02 < idyn> So...
20:02 < ldlework> idyn: want to try another marking game?
20:02 < idyn> Okay
20:02 < idyn> Shoot
20:02 < idyn> I am now smartified
20:03 < bigcentaur> .i coi ro do
20:04 < idyn> {.i coi [ro do]}
20:04 < idyn> {.i coi [ro do]}
20:04 < idyn> coi is a coi
20:04 < idyn> so...
20:04 < bigcentaur> umm ... hi
20:05 < idyn> hi
20:05 < ldlework> idyn: le mi prami poi do ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi
20:05 < idyn> I've talked to you before
20:05 < bigcentaur> to me?
20:05 < idyn> Am I supposed to mark that
20:05 < idyn> Or respond?
20:05 < ldlework> idyn: mark
20:06 < idyn> K
20:08 < idyn> {le [mi] <prami> poi [do] <ba penmi> cu <pu zi zukte> [lo ka jungau] [le tolpau munje] {tu'a} [lo jetnu sera'a] [lo nunmorsi]}
20:08 < idyn> ?
20:08 < ldlework> not very recursive
20:09 < idyn> idk
20:09 < ldlework> le should start with [ right?
20:09 < idyn> {[le mi] <prami> [poi do] <ba penmi> cu <pu zi zukte> [lo ka jungau] [le tolpau munje] {tu'a} [lo jetnu sera'a] [lo nunmorsi]}
20:09 < idyn> Yeah
20:09 < idyn> I just noticed that
20:10 < ldlework> idyn: its my opinon that the ability to deeply parse a lojban sentence is a very good accurate metric of how far along you are with comprehension
20:10 < rlpowell> Everything should be back up, btw.
20:10 < rlpowell> _mukti_: ^^
20:10 < ldlework> idyn: there are some gaps here in your parsing but that's okay
20:11 < idyn> Well yeah, I learned the basic grammar + a little more and then jumped in to let others teach me, then left for two months.
20:11 < ldlework> idyn: would you like me to perform a step by step parse for this sentence?
20:11 < idyn> I'm willing to learn
20:11 < ldlework> i'e
20:11 < idyn> Yesh
20:11 < ldlework> okay its going to take a few minutes as I used quite a few parts of the grammar
20:11 < ldlework> I'll explain them
20:12 < ldlework> So
20:12 < ldlework> The easiest way to start is to just put {} around the whole thing
20:12 < ldlework> Even if there are multiple bridi, we know it will start and with bridi on the top level
20:12 < ldlework> {le mi prami poi do ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:12 < ldlework> The first word we hit is in LO which opens a sumti
20:12 < ldlework> {[le mi prami poi do ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:13 < ldlework> LO usually consumes a selbri term, but there is a special form where you can put a simple sumti right after LO
20:13 < ldlework> illustration: lo ko'a broda ku == lo broda ku pe ko'a
20:13 < ldlework> We know that mi is a standalone sumti, so we wrap it
20:14 < ldlework> {[le [mi] prami poi do ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:14 < ldlework> Now, we know that we must have a selbri term no matter what
20:14 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi do ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:14 < ldlework> poi is a word that introduces a relative phrase
20:15 < ldlework> SELBRI/SUMTI poi BRIDI ku'o => SELBRI/SUMTI
20:15 < ldlework> we're attaching poi to a selbri, so it produces a selbri
20:15 < ldlework> but first we have to parse this inner bridi
20:15 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {do ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:15 < ldlework> We know that "do" is a standalone sumti
20:15 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] ba penmi cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:16 < ldlework> "ba" is a tag or tense depending on what follows
20:16 < ldlework> we see a brivla so we know it is a tense therefore we know we are in a selbri term
20:16 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>> cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:16 < ldlework> The next work is a "cu" so now we're really confused
20:17 < ldlework> How can we get a "cu" which starts a selbri term, if we're already in a selbri term?
20:17 < ldlework> In fact, this cu must close any terms we are in, up until the selbri term of the bridi above us.
20:17 < ldlework> I'll do this slowly...
20:18 < ldlework> If we go back to the left, we see that the first unclosed term we have is our bridi, the one inside the poi
20:18 < ldlework> so we can close that
20:18 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>} cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:18 < ldlework> We know that poi takes a bridi and creates what ever it is attached to
20:18 < ldlework> It is attached to an open selbri term <prami
20:19 < ldlework> So we know that poi produces a selbri too
20:19 < ldlework> so we close that
20:19 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}> cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:19 < ldlework> We have just closed the <prami .... > selbri
20:20 < ldlework> Which leaves us inside our first unclosed sumti
20:20 < ldlework> so we close that too
20:20 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu pu zi zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:20 < ldlework> Now the "cu" makes sense
20:20 < ldlework> Its simply coming after the first sumti in our sentence
20:20 < ldlework> albiet, this first sumti is quite complex
20:20 < ldlework> however, cu is powerful enough to close all open constructs forcing the start of the selbri term of the bridi it is inside
20:21 < ldlework> "cu" stars the main selbri of a bridi, so we know to open a selbri term
20:21 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:21 < ldlework> <pu <zi <zutke is three consecutive nested selbri terms
20:22 < ldlework> we see that lo comes after it so we know our selbri term has ended
20:22 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:22 < ldlework> lo starts our second sumti
20:22 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo ka jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:22 < ldlework> ka is in the NU family so we are going to get a selbri and eat a bridi
20:23 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:23 < ldlework> This bridi starts off with a brivla, so we have no x1, selbri term right off the bat
20:23 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:23 < ldlework> The selbri is followed directly by lo so we know our selbri has ended and a sumti has started
20:23 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le tolpau munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:24 < ldlework> our le is followed by a couple brivla so we know we're dealing with the selbri term of the lo sumti
20:24 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje tu'a lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:24 < ldlework> tu'a is a special cmavo which takes a sumti and returns a sumti
20:24 < ldlework> though the sumti it returns is semantically an abstraction
20:24 < ldlework> such as the one you get with NU's
20:25 < ldlework> so that means our selbri has ended
20:25 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:25 < ldlework> the sumti that the tu'a eats is a lo-based sumti and starts with a brivla so we know a new selbri has started
20:25 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo <jetnu sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:26 < ldlework> sera'a is a tag cmavo, it eats a sumti and produces a sumti
20:26 < ldlework> it can't belong in our selbri term, so our selbri closes
20:26 < ldlework> but since our selbri has closed, our lo sumti must close as well
20:26 < ldlework> you can't have a tag cmavo inside of the lo - ku
20:27 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo <jetnu>] sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:27 < ldlework> however, we can't have a tag cmavo inside of our tu'a sumti either
20:27 < ldlework> tu'a only eats one sumti, so the tu'a term is now closed as well
20:27 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo <jetnu>]] sera'a lo nunmorsi}
20:27 < ldlework> sera'a, being a tag, eats a sumti and returns one so we mark both
20:28 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo <jetnu>]] [sera'a [lo nunmorsi}
20:28 < ldlework> then just a simple selbri term
20:28 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo <jetnu>]] [sera'a [lo <nunmorsi>}
20:28 < ldlework> then we have our closing bridi bracket so now *everything open* must close
20:29 < ldlework> going backwards we can see that our "lo ka" property bridi is never closed!
20:29 < ldlework> we we close that bridi, and the lo sumti surrounding it
20:30 < ldlework> {[le [mi] <prami poi {[do] <ba <penmi>>}>] cu <pu <zi <zukte>>> [lo <ka {<jungau> [le <tolpau <munje>> [tu'a [lo <jetnu>]] [sera'a [lo <nunmorsi>}]}
20:30 < ldlework> There's nothing left open and so our last bridi bracket closes the very first opening bridi bracket
20:30 < idyn> @-@
20:30 < idyn> What does the sentence even mean?
20:32 < ldlework> "My love, who you will meet has just told the entire universe the truth regarding the death."
20:33 < ldlework> well
20:33 < ldlework> "regarding death"
20:37 < ldlework> idyn: totally confused?
20:37 < idyn> ...
20:37 < idyn> kinda
20:37 < idyn> I'm not that great
20:37 < idyn> I'm somewhere in the middle of those two jufra
20:37 < ldlework> idyn: well I threw a very hard sentence at you not so that you would succeed but to see which features you are not familiar with
20:38 < idyn> Well
20:38 < idyn> I realized half of the mistakes you pointed out
20:38 < idyn> The other half I am not familiar with
20:38 < ldlework> which ones, lets talk about those
20:38 < idyn> It was not very accurate in obtaining that info, because a lot of this I already knew, but forgot
20:38 < ldlework> alternatively, we could roleplay a bit
20:38 < ldlework> something simple
20:39 < idyn> As soon as my memory is jogged, all the info regarding something comes back
20:39 < idyn> I know about two NU for one
20:39 < idyn> Nu and di'u respectively
20:39 < ldlework> du'u*
20:39 < idyn> (I think it was di'u)
20:39 < idyn> Oh
20:40 < ldlework> ka is very similar
20:40 < ldlework> but cooler than nu and du'u
20:40 < ldlework> with ka, the bridi inside always contains at least once sumti called [ce'u]
20:40 < ldlework> its a variable, and it gets assigned
20:41 < ldlework> the lo ka sumti is part of some outer bridi
20:41 < ldlework> the selbri of that bridi specifies what gets assigned to ce'u
20:41 < ldlework> usually its very obvious
20:41 < ldlework> and example:
20:41 < ldlework> do simlu lo ka mencre
20:42 < ldlework> we know that the bridi inside the ka must have a ce'u, but it isn't listed
20:42 < ldlework> so we assume that it fills the first open place
20:42 < ldlework> do simlu lo ka (ce'u) mencre
20:42 < ldlework> okay, so now we need to know what fills the ce'u to understand the meaning
20:42 < idyn> Hold on. I'm not grasping these concepts. I should work my way up
20:42 < ldlework> we simply go up a level, and ask the selbri
20:42 < ldlework> oh hmm ok
20:42 < ldlework> ask me about your confusion
20:43 < idyn> Like, I'm building a bridge of understanding, one side is nothing, the other side is a full understanding. You are trying to help me build me bridge, but you are building on the other side of the gap.
20:43 < idyn> Is that a good analogy?
20:43 < idyn> Of a* gap
20:44 < ldlework> Sure, but the grammar is not too difficult. Just point to the part where it stops making sense.
20:44 < ldlework> Or rather, let's review nu and du'u?
20:44 < ldlework> Make sure that foundation is there
20:44 < idyn> That part where you said said "it's a variable
20:44 < idyn> "
20:44 < ldlework> OK
20:44 < ldlework> So
20:44 < idyn> I'm not familiar with that stuff yet
20:44 < idyn> And everything after that
20:44 < ldlework> Its nothing to be afraid of, the concept is easy
20:44 < ldlework> Its just a stand-in sumti
20:44 < ldlework> If I say
20:45 < ldlework> ko'a prami do
20:45 < ldlework> ko'a is another 'variable-like' sumti standin
20:45 < ldlework> until I tell you what ko'a is, you wont really know the full meaning of this sentence
20:45 < ldlework> until I do, you can probably guess that something, or someone loves you
20:45 < ldlework> but that specific sumti is unknown
20:46 < ldlework> ce'u is the same kind of thing
20:46 < ldlework> its just a word that fills a sumti place, but you don't know what it is
20:46 < ldlework> do simlu lo ka (ce'u) mencre
20:46 < ldlework> the bridi inside of a ka, always has at least one place filled with a ce'u variable
20:47 < ldlework> the reason for this is explainable
20:47 < ldlework> if du'u is a platonic factoid
20:47 < ldlework> and nu is an event in time
20:47 < ldlework> then ka describes the property of some, thing
20:48 < ldlework> properties are inherently dependent on the thing they describe
20:48 < ldlework> so this dependency is solved via ce'u
20:48 < ldlework> "lo ka ce'u tsali" is a property describing someting being strong
20:48 < ldlework> we don't know what, it could be anything
20:49 < ldlework> in fact it describes _things being strong in general_
20:49 < idyn> stop
20:49 < idyn> just a momen
20:49 < ldlework> this phrase "lo ka ce'u tsali" is literally translated to "strength"
20:49 < ldlework> k
20:49 < idyn> A ka bridi is a bridi that essentially describes a description sort of
20:49 < idyn> A property
20:50 < ldlework> yes, a characteristic, of something else
20:50 < ldlework> it embodies the characteristic itself
20:50 < idyn> So, it's like, "his charisma".
20:50 < ldlework> well its just "charisma"
20:50 < ldlework> you need a selbri to associate "charisma" with some other "he"
20:50 < ldlework> such as "ckaji"
20:51 < ldlework> "ckaji" : x1 is characterized by the property x2
20:51 < ldlework> do ckaji lo ka nelci ce'u
20:51 < idyn> lo ka gleki ce'u vei
20:51 < idyn> Would that be valid?
20:51 < idyn> "Happiness"?
20:51 < ldlework> well
20:51 < ldlework> its not happiness is it?
20:51 < ldlework> its being the target of happiness
20:52 < ldlework> its characteristic of providing happiness
20:52 < idyn> No, it's being happy?
20:52 < idyn> X1 is the thing that is happy
20:52 < idyn> X1 is ce'u
20:53 < ldlework> you have ce'u after gleki
20:53 < ldlework> meaning it has to be x2
20:53 < idyn> Yes, but bridi order is incredibly flexible
20:53 < idyn> no
20:53 < idyn> I don't believe that is how it works
20:53 < ldlework> the form is
20:53 < ldlework> x1 selbri x2 x3 ...
20:53 < idyn> moment
20:54 < ldlework> to put the x1 after the selbri, you need FA
20:54 < ldlework> or SE
20:54 < ldlework> to manipulate either the selbri, or the sumti directly
20:54 < ldlework> lo ka gleki fa ce'u ku == happiness
20:54 < ldlework> lo ka se gleki ce'u ku == happiness
20:54 < ldlework> x1 is the only sumti that by default must appear before the selbri
20:55 < idyn> I don't think that's a MUST
20:55 < ldlework> it is
20:55 < idyn> I'm looking it up
20:55 < idyn> I'm pretty sure it isn't
20:55 < ldlework> idyn: I've been studying lojban a long time :P
20:55 < idyn> I realize
20:56 < ldlework> with FA and SE you can put x1 after the selbri
20:56 < idyn> Yes
20:56 < ldlework> but without either of those, omitting a sumti before the selbri, causes the count to start at x2
20:56 < idyn> But I don't remember hearing that the X1 before the bridi is SET IN STONE rather than just the usual form
20:56 < ldlework> Its not set in stone
20:56 < idyn> I don't doubt you
20:56 < ldlework> you can use the modifiers
20:56 < idyn> Yes
20:57 < idyn> fa fe fi fo fu xe te ve se
20:57 < ldlework> citka ma
20:57 < idyn> I know them
20:57 < ldlework> means, "ate what?"
20:57 < idyn> Okay
20:57 < idyn> Yeah
20:57 < idyn> I found something that backs what you've said
20:57 < ldlework> so
20:58 < idyn> Okay
20:58 < ldlework> you made me think of an insightful lojban saying
20:58 < ldlework> with all of this
20:58 < idyn> lo ka ce'u gleki vei
20:58 < idyn> THAT'S happiness
20:58 < ldlework> yes
20:58 < ldlework> idyn: translate this to english (or try hehe)
20:58 < ldlework> lo ka gleki ce'u ku tadji lo ka ce'u gleki
20:59 < idyn> The source of happiness is a student of happiness?
20:59 < idyn> Wait
20:59 < ldlework> tadji = x1 is a process/approach/means of doing x2
20:59 < idyn> tadji isn't student
21:00 < ldlework> (you're thinking of tadni, as in nintadni)
21:00 < idyn> The source of happiness is a method of happiness?
21:00 < idyn> Providing happiness is happiness?
21:00 < idyn> Making people happy makes one happy?
21:00 < ldlework> Hard to say as elegantly in english :D
21:01 < idyn> XD
21:01 < ldlework> But I bet there exists a very elegant phrasing for english somewhere
21:01 < ldlework> using idiom and such, advantages English has over Lojban
21:01 < ldlework> But the lojban's elegance is clear
21:01 < idyn> Happiness provides itself?
21:02 < ldlework> You get what you give.
21:02 < ldlework> or something
21:03 < ldlework> Happiness is the pleasure of others.
21:03 < ldlework> something like that dunno :D
21:03 < idyn> When did you start learning?
21:03 < idyn> Oh that sounds nice
21:03 < ldlework> couple years ago on and off
21:03 < ldlework> I'm not the best lojbanist since I don't know all the little cmavo that do various things
21:03 < ldlework> But I do get the core grammar and the pattern
21:04 < ldlework> idyn: here's one ...
21:04 < ldlework> lo mi lanzu ku simxu lo ka ce'u prami ce'u
21:04 < idyn> Uh oh
21:05 < idyn> my family gives each other love?
21:05 < ldlework> yep
21:06 < ldlework> usually formed as: lo mi lanzu simxu lo ka prami
21:06 < ldlework> cu*
21:06 < ldlework> lo mi lanzu cu simxu lo ka prami
21:06 < ldlework> now mark it
21:06 < ldlework> :)
21:08 < idyn> {[lo mi lanzu] cu <simxu> [lo {ka <prami>}]}
21:08 < ldlework> not quite
21:08 < ldlework> on the right, you have a bridi inside of a lo - ku clause
21:08 < ldlework> on the left, neither the mi or lanzu are marked
21:08 < idyn> Oh
21:09 < idyn> But the lanzu is not being used as a selbri?
21:09 < idyn> WAIT
21:09 < idyn> HOLD ON
21:09 < ldlework> u'i
21:09 < idyn> Am I supposed to be marking things that by definition are selbri
21:09 < idyn> Or how they are used
21:09 < ldlework> brivla always create selbri
21:09 < ldlework> lanzu there is creating a selbri term, and its being used as a selbri
21:09 < ldlework> lo - ku eat selbri
21:10 < ldlework> to be eaten by the lo, is the selbri's purpose
21:10 < idyn> {[lo [mi] <lanzu>] cu <simxu> [lo {ka <prami>}]}
21:10 < ldlework> nice
21:10 < ldlework> on the right, you still have a bridi inside of a lo - ku
21:10 < idyn> Yeah
21:10 < ldlework> lo only eats selbri
21:10 < ldlework> (sometimes it eats a simple sumti first, like mi or do)
21:10 < idyn> Oh right
21:10 < ldlework> (appetizers, mm)
21:11 < idyn> {[lo [mi] <lanzu>] cu <simxu> [lo ka {<prami>}]}
21:11 < ldlework> yes, but now your lo is not eating a selbri
21:11 < ldlework> it is eating an uncooked ka!
21:11 < ldlework> it may get sick :(
21:11 < idyn> {[lo [mi] <lanzu>] cu <simxu> [lo <ka {<prami>}>]}
21:12 < ldlework> i'e cai
21:12 < ldlework> o'a
21:12 < ldlework> okay
21:13 < ldlework> now put in all the hidden terminators with ()
21:13 < ldlework> :)
21:16 < idyn> {[lo [mi] <lanzu>] cu <simxu> [lo ka {<prami>}(vei)] (ku) }(vau)
21:16 < ldlework> NU is closed with kei
21:16 < ldlework> missing anything else?
21:17 < idyn> I don't think so?
21:17 < idyn> The first lo is closed with cu
21:17 < ldlework> how about the first lo's ku?
21:17 < ldlework> Sure, we want to see all the hidden terminators
21:17 < ldlework> you don't need any of the ones you just added either
21:17 < idyn> okay
21:18 < idyn> {[lo [mi] <lanzu>] (ku) cu <simxu> [lo ka {<prami>}(kei)] (ku) }(vau)
21:18 < ldlework> in the future, the terminators should go inside the marks
21:19 < ldlework> the only one you're missing is the vau inside the ka bridi
21:19 < ldlework> very nice
21:19 < ldlework> I think you remembered a lot
21:20 < ldlework> if you ever wanna do a simple roleplay sometime let me know
21:20 < ldlework> like, I'll try to buy an apple off you or something
21:22 < idyn> okay
21:23 < idyn> sure?
21:23 < idyn> Go ahead.
21:23 < idyn> mi ponse lo plise
21:24 < idyn> .i xu do djica lo nu citka cu doi Idlework
21:25 < idyn> sorry
21:26 < ldlework> .i u'u mi mutce lo ka xagji
21:26 < ldlework> .i ku'i na ponse su'o jdini
21:26 < ldlework> .i xu do vecnu fo li no
21:27 < idyn> ...
21:27 < idyn> wat
21:28 < idyn> You are very hungry
21:28 < idyn> But you have no money
21:28 < idyn> Do I sell nothing?
21:28 < ldlework> do you sell for free
21:28 < idyn> Oh
21:28 < idyn> Right
21:28 < idyn> "fo"
21:28 < idyn> Okay
21:28 < idyn> I gets it
21:28 < ldlework> ui
21:29 < idyn> .ua
21:29 < idyn> go'i
21:29 < ldlework> u'e jetnu xu
21:30 < idyn> na go'i lol
21:30 < ldlework> ma mukti lo nu xendo lo na pendo
21:30 < ldlework> ue kusru xu .i na jimpe
21:30 < idyn> "lol" as in internet slang btw
21:31 < ldlework> lo nu binxo cu cfipu mi .i sa'u dunda mi xu
21:32 < ldlework> .i za'a lo mi stomaxu cu krixa
21:35 < idyn> mi ponse lo so'i plise .i mi na e'ande do lo nu ponse mi plise cu
21:36 < ldlework> why would a cu go at the end?
21:37 < idyn> *pacmi'a*
21:37 < idyn> Hm?
21:37 < idyn> Oh
21:37 < ldlework> you have cu at the end
21:37 < idyn> I suppose it should be "vau"
21:37 < idyn> to close EVERYTHING
21:37 < ldlework> if its the end of the utterance, that's enough
21:37 < ldlework> don't need to close anything
21:37 < idyn> So I just don't need to put anything
21:37 < ldlework> right
21:37 < idyn> Just need to stop
21:38 < idyn> why does "vau" even exist then?
21:38 < ldlework> if you forget to attach an attudinal to .i is just one example
21:38 < ldlework> .i mi na djica lo nu klama ku vau ii
21:38 < idyn> Oh
21:38 < idyn> Yeah
21:38 < idyn> I guess
21:39 < idyn> Anyways
21:39 < idyn> As we were...
21:39 < idyn> *pacmi'a*
21:39 < ldlework> (u'i)
21:39 < idyn> wait
21:39 < idyn> nvmd
21:39 < idyn> I have to go
21:39 < idyn> Thanks for talking
21:39 < ldlework> okay :)
21:39 < ldlework> o/
21:39 < idyn> ki'e
22:51 < zipcpi> http://pastebin.com/XAN0zadf
22:55 < zipcpi> By the way how common is it to end a sentence with a sumtcita? :p
22:55 < zipcpi> Can't quite imagine it but perhaps it's just my personal style
23:58 < gleki> Finally Google returns results for "sutysisku". This is the name for my fork of sutsis.
23:59 < gleki> Finally Google returns results for "sutysisku". This is the NEW name for my fork of sutsis.
--- Day changed Sun May 24 2015
03:00 < PrincessBecca> cerni coi
03:05 < gleki> coi
03:05 < bekys> coi la gleki
03:24 < gleki> "Are you -still- not understanding what we're saying, 'sir'? =P
03:24 < gleki> "
03:24 < gleki> is it correct English?
03:33 < PrincessBecca> yes
03:34 < PrincessBecca> although that depends whether you consider the use of =P to be english or textspeech, but i think it's english!
03:35 < PrincessBecca> i may be the wrong person to consult on these matters, because i am not nearly as pretentious as the types of people non-natives are usually looking to impress.
03:36 < gleki> someone just marked this in Tatoeba as "needs native check"
03:46 < AquaRegia> hello
03:56 < gleki> hi
04:08 < PrincessBecca> gleki, it's fine as a native english sentence; i don't know if it breaks Tatoeba rules though.
04:09 < zipcpi> What is this about?
04:10 < gleki> http://tatoeba.org/jbo/sentences/show/2096210
04:10 < gleki> if you are a native speaker of English you may comment
04:11 < zipcpi> Ah yes... English is my first language yes, although I do speak with a heavy accent
04:11 < zipcpi> Wow... this is one difficult sentence
04:13 < zipcpi> I'd say it is accurate though. It's the nonstandard punctuation and emoticon that may be of some concern but I don't know how to express it otherwise.
04:16 < PrincessBecca> right
04:51  * nuzba @464161niftg: @s_i_d_a 同じ話ではないですが、「兄」や「妹」に対する根語が無い事についての遣り取りは以前にもあつたみたいですね。http://academy6.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/gengo/1205354869/73 http://www4.rocketbbs.com/141/bbs.cgi?id=lojban&mode=pickup&no=3 ただ、このbanpreさんの回答は今回の場合に当てはまりませんね。 [http://bit.ly/1ArTnfg]
04:55 < zipcpi> Well actually I can think of a possible use-case for the SF pseudo-famyma'o that the Alta parser uses. Yeah, you guessed it, attitudinals again. Otherwise the only way to attach it to a selbri is on the cu.
04:56 < zipcpi> Or by wrapping the entire thing in ke... ke'e but that requires forethought
06:41 < rutytar> have there been any projects to make a lojban poem with a small number of words along the lines of green eggs and ham?
06:42 < PrincessBecca> there's a lojban poem that consists of maybe 4 attitudinals and sai
06:42 < rutytar> that seems more confusing than helpful
06:43 < rutytar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den
06:43 < zipcpi> Ahahaha
06:45 < zipcpi> http://specgram.com/CLI.2/03.bakery.disorder.html (this should be quite translatable to Lojban. No syntactic ambiguity associated with center embedding, but extreme nested {poi}s will probably cause communication issues :p
06:45 < PrincessBecca> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LojbanPoem
06:46 < PrincessBecca> zipcpi, ow
06:47 < zipcpi> :p
06:47 < PrincessBecca> i'm a native english speaker and that is hard for me to read
06:47 < zipcpi> I know
06:47 < PrincessBecca> crazy.
06:52 < demize> I like the "Physicians neurologists psychologists other linguists called for help called for help called for help didn’t help either." part
06:55 < zipcpi> lo mikce poi lo besna skepe poi lo menli skepre poi lo drata bangu skepre cu sidju cpedu cu sidju cpedu cu sidju cpedu na ji'a sidju
06:55 < zipcpi> lo mikce poi lo besna skepre poi lo menli skepre poi lo drata bangu skepre cu sidju cpedu cu sidju cpedu cu sidju cpedu na ji'a sidju
06:55 < PrincessBecca> u'i
06:56 < zipcpi> lo mikce poi lo besna skepre poi lo menli skepre poi lo drata ke bangu skepre cu sidju cpedu cu sidju cpedu cu sidju cpedu na ji'a sidju
06:58 < omni___> coi
06:58 < mensi> omni___: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: la xalbo ce do puzi za'ure'u canu lu zo'e poi li'u i e'u do jmina lo romoi se casnu
06:58 < mensi> vreji le uitki | 2015-05-23T04:58:22.249Z
06:58 < omni___> .i'a
06:59 < Ilmen> lo'u canu le'u .u'e
06:59 < omni___> zo casnu se skudji
06:59 < Ilmen> je'e
07:00 < Ilmen> coi
07:00 < omni___> coi la .ilmen.
07:02 < rutytar> yay, just got through the 20 most common gismu without messing up in anki
07:03 < omni___> .i do cu'e tcidu lo cnino kibykarni zei co'e  pe la selpa'i je ne lu ma poi li'u
07:03 < Ilmen> ui dai
07:03 < Ilmen> .i mi ba'o tcidu doi la .omni
07:03 < omni___> ua
07:04 < omni___> .i ckini ru'e lu zo'e poi li'u ji'a
07:04 < omni___> zipcpi: I think your {ji'a} is placed wrong.
07:05 < Ilmen> .i sa'u mi pu zu gasnu lo nu ro nu lo cnino karnysle cu tolcanci cu poi'i zmiku jungau mi tau ke'a ca ke'a
07:05 < omni___> ua
07:05 < omni___> .i mi pu kucli lo du'u xu kau su'o da pu go'i
07:05 < Ilmen> ca nau do djuno .u'i
07:06 < omni___> .i za'a zo karnysle .i mi pu zi troci lo ka cusku
07:06 < omni___> .i karnyka'u xu .i karnysle xu .i .oi
07:06 < Ilmen> .i mi na si'a birti
07:09 < zipcpi> How is it wrong? It means that they "also didn't" help
07:10 < omni___> It sort of means that they did help as well as didn't help.
07:10 < omni___> The {ji'a} needs modify the sumti
07:11 < omni___> So either use a million ku'o or place it before
07:12 < omni___> You're complaining about mis-placed UI1, but a lot of people place {ji'a} in completely wrong places all the time.
07:12 < omni___> {lo broda ji'a cu brode} is a common example
07:15 < zipcpi> Yeah, it's a mess
07:16 < zipcpi> But I still don't see it. "ji'a" doesn't imply positivity, at least the way I interpret it
07:17 < omni___> It implies there is another thing that applies as well, and in the same "slot" of the sentence. ko'a ji'a broda means broda is true with another thing in x1 as well
07:18 < omni___> The only other thing in the NA slot is ja'a
07:18 < omni___> Translate it to predicates: jetnu fa lo du'u sidju .i jifta ji'a fa lo du'u sidju
07:18 < omni___> jitfa *
07:18 < zipcpi> And the weird {ja'a xi pimu} ideas :p
07:21 < Ilmen> you have also {kaijbi}
07:22  * zipcpi nods
07:22 < omni___> Right. Something from NA+SAI then.
07:24 < zipcpi> And yes I'm complaining about its misplacement but I know it's hard to actually place them correctly due to situational issues with famyma'o... that's kinda why I invented both i'au and ji'au
07:26 < zipcpi> Won't quite help here though
07:27 < zipcpi> Well, maybe ji'a can be applied to the whole sentence, mirroring the English "either"
07:28 < zipcpi> With {vau} or {i'au} (everything is closed so only a single vau would suffice)
07:31 < zipcpi> I often do attach it to {cu} though
07:32 < zipcpi> Maybe {na} works differently
07:35 < gleki> So back to NooLearn I just got an impression that they have no plan on what features should exist in their (their?) product. This sounds completely alien to me although i havent asked them what business model they were planning to use in future.
07:36 < gleki> zipcpi: i never use {ku'o} btw. havent found a single example in my dialect where it could be useful
07:37 < zipcpi> Well, it kinda mirrors the comma in "John, who is my friend, and I are going"
07:37 < zipcpi> second comma
07:38 < gleki> i use {vau} or {cu} there
07:38 < zipcpi> I suppose so. And in my "grammar Nazi" example you could also use {do'u}
07:39 < zipcpi> Well it's mostly for if you want to start another sumti. Not many other alternatives there
07:40 < gleki> {do'u} closes DOI/COI
07:40 < zipcpi> Yes. And my grammar Nazi example was "doi do poi se mipri [ku'o/do'u] ni'a lo loldi mi do zvafa'i uo"
07:40 < zipcpi> Oh I mean after "ni'a lo loldi"
07:41 < zipcpi> "doi do poi se mipri ni'a lo loldi [ku'o/do'u] mi do zvafa'i uo"
07:41 < gleki> doi do poi se mipri ni'a lo loldi vau mi facki uo lo nu do zvati makau
07:42 < zipcpi> It's funny... I almost never use {vau}... except for attitudinals
07:44 < omni___> I never use it.
07:44 < zipcpi> What about {kei}? Do you prefer {vau} over it too? I suppose that is workable if you're trying to limit the "core" vocabulary
07:45 < omni___> In Lojban, that is. In Toaq Dzu it's the only terminator
07:45 < gleki> the same for {kei}. i never use it
07:45 < gleki> {vau} and {cu} do the main job.
07:46 < zipcpi> Wait are you selpa'i? Toaq Dzu isn't public yet is it? :p
07:47 < omni___> {ku'o}  can save syllables if there are nested NU in a relative clauses, and there is still a sumti afterwards
07:47 < omni___> clause*
07:47 < zipcpi> Right
07:47 < gleki> ie
07:47 < omni___> Not just syllables, but making sure you don't have to keep count of the nesting
07:48 < gleki> to ku'i zo ku'o e zo vau slaka remei
07:48 < gleki> toi
07:48 < gleki> i ie lo nu slaka xokaumei na traji lo ka vajni
07:48 < omni___> ie
07:48 < omni___> Toaq Dzu 0.1 is public, but 1.0 isn't yet.
07:49 < zipcpi> Yeah that's part of why I use kei/ku'o rather than vau; it's just easier for me to keep track exactly what it closes rather than trying to count how many bridi I'm in. Also it's because that was the way I was taught I suppose
07:50 < zipcpi> It's kinda like how you can tell how old people are in the PRC by how they are taught to use their language :p
07:51 < omni___> omni___, acolotl, fpcalep, Vanlamigu
07:51 < zipcpi> Especially the abortive "second-round simplified characters" attempt
07:51 < zipcpi> Ah... I have trouble keeping track of all these names T.T
07:51 < zipcpi> I thought you were different people all this time
07:51 < uinmo> coi
07:51 < zipcpi> oi
07:52 < zipcpi> u'ise'i
07:54 < omni___> Holy hell
07:54 < omni___> my response to your comment failed to get posted, now I have to rewrite it?!
07:54 < zipcpi> On your blog?
07:54 < omni___> go'i
07:54 < b_jonas> coi
07:54 < zipcpi> oidai
07:55 < zipcpi> That's why I use the Lazarus extension. It's not updated in a while though
07:55 < b_jonas> So is there a good word for playacting, as in {x1 is playing a role, pretending fictional situation x2, without or with trying to deceive anyone}?
07:56 < uinmo> jarco lo ka ?
07:56 < zipcpi> Nah
07:56 < zipcpi> Doesn't have the correct senses
07:57 < b_jonas> there's a bunch of entries in the jvs that might work
07:57 < b_jonas> en: pretend
07:57 < mensi> 6 da se tolcri: je'utra, jifkritrazu'e, selxarkei, imposta, sezmlugau, xarpresmitra
07:57 < b_jonas> and all that stuff
07:57 < b_jonas> but I don't really like them much
07:57 < uinmo> {jarco lo ka}  - demonstrates its property, manifests itself as ...
07:58 < zipcpi> Yeah but it's too general
07:58 < omni___> What about dracykei
07:58 < zipcpi> And I don't believe you can {jarco lo ka me la .peter.pan.}, but that might be bergu again
07:59 < b_jonas> no, I don't think so. {la .gandalf. jarco lo ka vo'a banli makfa} is when he reveals himself as the true master of fire, not when he plays a false role to intimidate some orcs
07:59 < b_jonas> yeah, be careful, the superman costume doesn't actually let you fly
07:59 < uinmo> te makfa
08:00 < uinmo> {jarco lo ka te makfa}?
08:00 < b_jonas> yeah, probably
08:00 < uinmo> so then {jarco lo ka simlu lo ka}
08:00 < b_jonas> uh…
08:00 < b_jonas> uinmo: what if I'm not playing my role
08:01 < zipcpi> Still doesn't capture it. "displays similarity to X"?
08:01 < b_jonas> but I'm acting that my teddy bear is a princess, not I am a princess
08:02 < b_jonas> as in playing with dolls
08:02 < uinmo> {mi zukte fau lo ka se xanri lo nu lo mi se kelci dacti cu me lo princesa}
08:03 < b_jonas> {zukte be fau lo ka se xanri}? interesting…
08:04 < uinmo> because if i used {fi'o} someone would explode in semantic rage
08:04 < uinmo> or a syntactic one, idk
08:05 < zipcpi> fi'o? More like fishy'o amirite? zo'o
08:06 < zipcpi> Meh I don't have a particular beef with fi'o; just that it's long in some contexts, and expanding them would be even longer
08:07 < b_jonas> I like {fi'o}
08:07 < b_jonas> I try to use it in crazy ways these days
08:09 < zipcpi> omni___: Yeah your blog acts up to me sometimes... just won't load properly
08:10 < omni___> Make sure to add your solution to jbovlaste, or if you fail to come up with one, add the problematic expression to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LH_bawafDZBp5h4shGoajnTU7sttOilfpyxqUD4B5BM/edit
08:11 < omni___> Or http://mw.lojban.org/mw/index.php?title=Missing_predicates
08:11 < zipcpi> Wait was that to me or b_jonas?
08:11 < omni___> To ionac
08:11 < omni___> But really to anyone who tries to say things and fails
08:11 < omni___> so everyone.
08:11  * zipcpi nods
08:11 < durka42> mi'e .evriuan.
08:12 < zipcpi> coi durkavore
08:12 < omni___> mi du la ro da
08:13 < zipcpi> doi durkavore mi jinvi lo nu do ba nelci ti sei zo'oi http://pastebin.com/vWPLb1Mk
08:15 < omni___> doi la uinmo do cpedu lo ka jmina lo cnino pe lu zo'e pi li'u lo uitki .i ku'i mi na kakne lo ka zmiku bastygau se pi'o lo jvame'o
08:16 < uinmo> omni___: oi
08:16 < omni___> lo nu macnu cu cumki
08:17 < uinmo> i mi pu ze'i se pluka lonu la guskant cu stika le uitki i ku'i la'aru'e ei mi di'a gunka
08:17 < uinmo> i ca ti lo se casnu vreji
08:18 < uinmo> omni___: lo dikni javni cu bangu i xu do na se pluka lo ka tadni lo bangu
08:18 < omni___> na ka'e tadni ro bangu
08:20 < uinmo> ko jmina fi lo se casnu ke uitki papri
08:20 < uinmo> i babo mi galfi
08:21 < omni___> .okei
08:21 < uinmo> na gendra
08:22 < omni___> lo zabnyrkulu verba na'o cusku lo na gendra
08:22 < so-uai-du-iu> %s/^..:.. <.\([^>]*\)> \(.*\)/{{irci|\1|\2}}/ sei pe'i banzu
08:22 < so-uai-du-iu> to la'oi irssi zei formata toi
08:28 < zipcpi> lo'u .okei  na gendra le'u u'i
08:32 < so-uai-du-iu> .oi re da versiio lo pa moi co nu casnu ku gi'e pagbu lo uitki
08:33 < so-uai-du-iu> :%s/^..:.. <.\([^>]*\)> \(.*\)/{{irci|\1|\2}}/
08:33 < so-uai-du-iu> sa.i
08:33 < so-uai-du-iu> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_zo'e_poi
08:33 < so-uai-du-iu> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_On_zo'e_noi_in_the_gadri_definition
08:37 < omni___> I copied it, but the formatting is horrible
08:37 < omni___> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/jbocre:_zo%27e_poi
08:38 < zipcpi> Oh by the way can I bring up about what to do with {mu'ei} and {ba'oi}? I think they have some potential use, but the talk about possible worlds and futures might be confusing people :p
08:39 < omni___> Wait, I had some thoughts about mu'ei the other day, but I can't remember now
08:39 < zipcpi> I think {ba'oi} can be used as another way to quantify probability (though is there another way to do it already?)
08:39 < omni___> Oh I think it was in the context of a preposition for "ganai"
08:40 < zipcpi> Ah...
08:40 < zipcpi> Yes
08:40 < zipcpi> It can be used that
08:40 < omni___> ro mu'ei = bi'ai
08:41 < omni___> So bi'ai is that preposition
08:41 < omni___> I just wanted to have one that was by default irrealis
08:41 < zipcpi> Hmm.
08:42 < zipcpi> (by the way what's the Lojban attitudinal for "I'm in thought"?)
08:42 < omni___> I've seen sei pensi
08:42 < Ilmen> ju'anai
08:43 < omni___> I've wanted a word for that, too. Something to signal you're contemplating
08:48 < zipcpi> I've seen someone commented that mu'ei and ba'oi must have been invented on a trip. Seeing that I'm the one who entered them into JVS I admit I'm a little hurt zo'oru'e (though I don't think I invented them? It was such a long time ago)
08:49 < zipcpi> But yes I admit that the association with the possible worlds theory might turn some people off. Heck it would turn even me off if I didn't see the hypothetical utility of it, even if I don't believe in its reality
08:50 < zipcpi> I don't know how else to word it though.... ba'oi might be rewordable as probability, but mu'ei might be harder to do
08:51 < zipcpi> In my opinion mu'ei is tied to the philosophical idea of necessity
08:52 < zipcpi> Maybe it'd help if I moved the "laic" definition to the front
08:52 < zipcpi> "what might have happened", and "what might happen"
08:53 < zipcpi> I feel a bit like Curtis lol
08:56 < omni___> jbovlaste is the best place to teach cmavo
08:56 < omni___> not *
08:57 < zipcpi> iesai
09:09 < omni___> 25 years in and we haven't settled on a solution to the word "if".
09:10 < omni___> I used to joke that someone should translate If by Rudyard Kipling
09:10 < omni___> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/175772
09:11 < omni___> Lojban is said to have some 7 ways to say "if".
09:11 < omni___> So would each line use a different word for "if" ?
09:20 < zipcpi> The problem is that "if" could mean so many different things
09:21 < zipcpi> ganai ... gi only sets up a logical relationship "If this is true, that must be true", and doesn't imply causality
09:22 < zipcpi> It also reminded me when my textbook told me there was... what... four ways to ask "why"?
09:22 < zipcpi> Maybe more
09:25 < uinmo> zipcpi: i performed a full analysis of all test cases of subjunctives of ba'oi, mu'ei, Loglan and Ithkuil. ELG has the result of my analysis. CC too.
09:27 < uinmo> lo me ti je broda ...
09:32 < zipcpi> "If this is true, that is also true"*
10:04 < omni___> I think the usefulness of ganai-if has been underestimated.
10:05 < omni___> By me.
10:06 < gleki> xa'a'a
10:06 < so-uai-du-iu> ganai sounds emphatic and categorical when you're brought up on va'o
10:06 < gleki> i semi na kanpe
10:06 < gleki> i sei mi na kanpe
10:06 < omni___> I think it's not ganai that fails to capture "if", but our failure to mark illocution in the right places
10:07 < omni___> In other words, just scope again.
10:10 < omni___> Yes, we have found comfort in va'o
10:10 < gleki> va'o zei kufra
10:13 < omni___> Consider the at least three different readings of "If you come with me, I will show you": {lo du'u do klakansa mi cu nibli lo du'u mi do visygau}, {ga nai do klakansa mi gi mi .aidji lo ka visygau do} and {mi .aidji lo ka ga nai do klakansa mi gi visygau do}.
10:14 < omni___> The first is wrong.
10:14 < omni___> The second as well.
10:14 < omni___> Number 3 works.
10:14 < omni___> It's about expectation
10:15 < omni___> as long as the entailment is under the scope of an irrealis like that, it's fine, because it depends only on the human's current expectations or desires or intentions,
10:17 < gleki> mi .aidji lo ka do klakansa mi e lo nu mi mi vusygau do
10:17 < gleki> /ka/nu/
10:27 < omni___> The thing about {va'o} is that I'm not sure how to define it in pure logical terms so that you can determine the truth value of a claim involving {va'o}.  It seems to do a bunch of different things, sometimes with implicit irrealis being added to the sentence, sometimes with implicit da'i inside the va'o, and sometimes it's implicitly da'inai all o
10:27 < omni___> ver so it works like fau.
10:28 < omni___> And the relationship between the tagged sumti and the bridi needs to be defined.
10:28 < omni___> How does it differ from ganai?
10:28 < gleki> zo fau zei jufra na bi'ai subjuntivo
10:28 < omni___> Is it just so'imu'ei? Is it ba'a?
10:28 < gleki> fau => fanbu
10:29 < omni___> mi sipna va'o lo nurma
10:29 < omni___> lo nurma cu vanbi lo nu mi sipna
10:29 < gleki> do lafti
10:29 < omni___> na go'i
10:30 < omni___> .i lo nurma cu stuzi .i ro stuzi ka'e vanbi
10:31 < omni___> .i xu do jinvi lo du'u zo va'o na ckini zo vanbi
10:31 < omni___> .i la'a so'i da go'i
10:31 < gleki> xu na ku zo tcini
10:31 < omni___> zo tcini na cizryme'a
10:32 < gleki> ko pilno zo ca ne se ba'i zo va'o onai zo fau
10:32 < gleki> i ji'a zo bu'u mo
10:48 < gleki> "Perhaps you would prefer: lo broda cu brode == ko'a broda .i ko'a brode."
10:48 < gleki> why "==" here?
10:48 < gleki> why not "===" ?:D
10:49 < gleki> "Defining lo in terms of lo is ... co'e." <-- replace "co'e" with something in English. Sounds like jargon. do we need jargon here?
10:49 < gleki> jboglish, to be precise.
10:50 < gleki> also *...* is to be underlined.
10:50 < gleki> the same with _..._
10:51 < gleki> sequential posts from the same user are to be merged
10:52 < so-uai-du-iu> je'e .i lo mupli be lo nu na go'i zo'u lo nu da'i pavmeigau cu (to ju'o nai toi) rinka lo nu cenba lo ka ma kau smuni
10:52 < so-uai-du-iu> .i va'i mi na mulno co jimpe fi lo bi'u nai se cusku be la cadgu'a
10:53 < gleki> Also i  dont know how to quote others' posts in a nice way. In this chat it's like "gleki: coi do <-- why did you say that, gleki?" But how to do that in the wiki?
10:54  * gleki de'a
10:54 < so-uai-du-iu> da'i mi pilno la cilta staile ku noi soi mi djuno vau do na nelci
10:54 < mensi> ba'e mi nelci i ie mi nelci
10:55 < so-uai-du-iu> (to zo'oi thread zo'u ma xe fanva toi)
10:59 < omni___> notpoi / snupoi
11:00 < omni___> mi pu zu pilno zo snucilta
11:00 < omni___> .u'i ru'e
11:00 < so-uai-du-iu> zo notpoi simlu lo ka mi ce zanru
11:09 < PrincessBecca> uinai http://www.nj.com/middlesex/index.ssf/2015/05/famed_a_beautiful_mind_mathematician_wife_killed_in_taxi_crash_police_say.html
12:15 < navekko> Hello!
12:15 < navekko> Someone here?
12:25 < omni___> coi
12:27 < navekko> coi
12:28 < omni___> do mo
12:30 < navekko> mi gleki
12:30 < omni___> ui
12:30 < navekko> do mo
12:30 < omni___> .i do zukte ma ca lo cabdei
12:31 < omni___> .i mi surla gi'e zukte so'u cinri
12:31 < navekko> .i mi cilre
12:31 < omni___> ua
12:32 < omni___> lo nu cilre cu xamgu
12:32 < navekko> I don't understand
12:32 < navekko> .ui nai
12:32 < omni___> learning is good
12:32 < navekko> I'm beginner
12:32 < omni___> do nintadni
12:33 < navekko> And I'm confused with lesson 4 of Wave Lessons
12:34 < omni___> About attitudinals?
12:39 < navekko> Yes
12:39 < navekko> But
12:39 < navekko> About this in particular
12:40 < navekko> Let's have another attitudinal of a different kind to illustrate something peculiar:
12:40 < navekko>     .ei = attitudinal: complex propositional emotion: obligation - freedom.
12:40 < navekko> So, quite easy: I have to give the apple away is mi dunda .ei lo plise ku, right? It is, actually! When you think about it, that's weird. Why is it that all the other attitudinals we have seen so far expresses the speaker's feeling about the bridi, but this one actually changes what the bridi means? Surely, by saying I have to give the apple away,
12:40 < navekko> we say nothing about whether the apple actually is being given away. If I had used .ui, however, I would actually have stated that I gave the apple away, and that I was happy about it. What's that all about?
12:40 < navekko> This issue, exactly how attitudinals change the conditions on which a bridi is true, is a subject of a minor debate. The official, textbook rule, which probably won't be changed, is that there is a distinction between pure emotions and propositional emotions. Only propostional emotions can change the truth conditions, while pure emotions cannot. In
12:40 < navekko>  order to express a propositional emotional attitudinal without changing the truth value of the bridi, you can just separate it from the bridi with .i. There is also a word for explicitly conserving or changing the truth conditions of a bridi:
12:40 < navekko>     da'i = attitudinal: discursive: supposing - in fact
12:40 < navekko> Saying da'i in a bridi changes the truth conditions to hypothetical, which is the default using propositional attitudinals. Saying da'i nai changes the truth condition to the normal, which is default using pure attitudinals.
12:40 < navekko> What does this all mean?
12:41 < omni___> It means that {mi klama} means that I actually go, while {.ei mi klama} only means that I *should* go, not that I do in fact go.
12:42 < navekko> Oh
12:42 < navekko> So
12:43 < navekko> mi da'i .ei klama
12:43 < selpahi> It's best to put the attitudinal first.
12:43 < navekko> means I go, but because I have to
12:43 < selpahi> You probably mean {da'i nai}
12:43 < navekko> Yes! ^_^
12:44 < selpahi> I don't see {.ei da'i nai mi klama} very much.
12:46 < navekko> I have to work on that
13:36 < Ilmen> mi di'a jundi
15:09 < Ilmen> co'o
18:42 < ldlework> http://ldlework.com/cadguha.png
18:44 < ldlework> la jbogu'e cu zenba lo ka ka'e se pilno
23:42 < ldlework> coi
23:43 < gleki> coi
23:44 < gleki> i mi xa'o tatpi i ri'abo mi stika le uitki
23:44 < ldlework> gleki: I'd love for you to visit jbogu'e soon
23:45 < gleki> ldlework: impossible.i have tasks in lojbanistan for years ahead. and nobody is helping me :(
23:46 < ldlework> gleki: so you can't even check out what I'm doing?
23:46 < ldlework> shucks. okay then.
23:51 < gleki> ldlework: nope. look at what is happening to LMW and what is Chapter 4 of CC
23:51 < gleki> ldlework: can you check?
23:53 < ldlework> gleki: I'm not involved with that at all
23:53 < ldlework> don't even know what you're referring too
23:57 < gleki> ldlework: ra'o (if you understand why i asked that question)
--- Day changed Mon May 25 2015
00:04 < gleki> ldlework: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)
00:04 < gleki> ldlework: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/ZhtelZR8Qvc/discussion
00:11 < ldlework> gleki: I'm not asking you to work, but enjoy the fruits of my own effort
00:12 < ldlework> ra'ocu'i if anything :)
00:12 < gleki> ldlework: uinai but no time to enjoy. i m thinking of others who are in need
00:14 < ldlework> lolk
02:00 < selrun> coi loi prenu
02:02 < gleki> coi
02:04 < niek> coi
02:14  * nuzba @klingonska: @standupmackan Der har gjorts ett antal försök:    http://stodi.lojban.org/~clsn/webarchives/2012/April/msg00060.html [http://bit.ly/1Q5RjeI]
02:17 < b_jonas> coi
02:19 < b_jonas> I was still wondering about how to say playact, because it seems a general and important enough word to me that'd be useful in lots of compounds. I wonder if we could make a lujvo for it from perhaps {cfika} and {tarti}.
02:20 < gleki> I'm working on a localization file for sutysisku
02:21 < gleki> b_jonas: do cuxna
02:25 < b_jonas> So supposing the word would be {fiktra}, it doesn't look like that word exists yet, would it be reasonable for it to mean and place structure "x1 is playacting, pretending fictional situation x2" (possibly with additional places)?
02:26 < gleki> en:cfika
02:26 < mensi> cfika = x1 is a work of fiction about plot/theme/subject x2/under convention x2 by author x3.
02:27 < gleki> en:tarti
02:27 < mensi> tarti = x1 behaves/conducts oneself as/in-manner x2 (event/property) under conditions x3.
02:27 < gleki> i guess it will be t1 t2=c1 c2
02:27 < b_jonas> The first place seems reasonable enough to me, because it's the same as the first place of {tarti}
02:28 < gleki> i dont know about tarti3 and cfika3. I removed all but the first two places in LISRI semantic group of gismu
02:28 < gleki> and most "under conditions" places
02:29 < b_jonas> I really hope you didn't try to remove the third place of kakne
02:29 < b_jonas> let me look it up
02:30 < b_jonas> oh dear you did
02:30 < gleki> jb:kakne
02:30 < mensi> kakne = kakne — x1(entity)  is capable of doing  x2(property of x1)
02:30 < mensi> :lo kakne — capable.
02:30 < mensi> :mi na kakne lo ka sipna — I can't sleep.
02:30 < mensi> :Comment: for e.g. &quot;I can't wait&quot; ka'e is more appropriate. kakne is about ability.
02:30 < mensi> :Related words: stati, certu, gasnu, ka'e, nu'o, pu'i, djuno, zifre
02:30 < gleki> en:kakne
02:30 < mensi> kakne = x1 is able to do/be/capable of doing/being x2 (event/state) under conditions x3 (event/state).
02:30 < b_jonas> and of {cumki} too?
02:30 < b_jonas> no!!!
02:31 < gleki> http://korp.alexburka.com/#?cqp=%5B(tags%20_%3D%20%22kakne3%22%20%7C%20trans%20_%3D%20%22kakne3%22)%5D&search_tab=1&stats_reduce=word&hpp=500&search=cqp
02:32 < gleki> idk. find me a n justification of kakne 3 here
02:32 < gleki> you mean cumki3 or  cumki2?
02:33 < b_jonas> second place of cumki
02:34 < b_jonas> it doesn't have a third place in the gismu list definition
02:34 < gleki> cumki2 would be easier to find yes.
02:35 < b_jonas> {kakne} works the same as {cumki} but has an extra first place for convenience
02:35 < b_jonas> both describe possibilities, or conditional possibilities
02:35 < gleki> ie ie
02:36 < b_jonas> I don't really think there's a big semantic difference between them
02:43 < gleki> the preface to Dictionary with Examples says it all
03:23 < ldlework> b_jonas: http://ldlework.com/sunrise.jpg
03:23 < ldlework> b_jonas: http://ldlework.com/sunrise.png *
03:36 < selrun> co'o jbopre
03:59 < gleki> 23 April 2015 La Gleki announced the development of la muplis, a tool for quickly searching the corpus of Lojban sample sentences at tatoeba.org.
03:59 < gleki> ^ i dont think that's a piece of real news
03:59 < gleki> "Total Scan" is what should have been there instead.
04:02 < gleki> So that's basically all. Google recached sutysisku's links with its new names. No more confusion with sutsis
04:07 < so-uai-du-iu> exp: to'e ki'u mo
04:07 < mensi> ([to'e {ki'u KU} LUhU] [CU {mo VAU}])
04:07 < akmnlrse> exp: to'e ki'u je ba
04:07 < mensi> ([to'e {<ki'u (¹je ba¹)> KU} LUhU] VAU)
04:07 < akmnlrse> exp: ba je to'e ki'u
04:07 < mensi> ([{ba <je (¹to'e ki'u¹)>} KU] VAU)
04:08 < gleki> je'e
04:08 < akmnlrse> simlu lo ka laldo
04:08 < gleki> gerna: to'e ki'u je ki'u
04:08 < mensi> (0[{<(1to'e ki'u)1 je ki'u> KU} VAU])0
04:08 < gleki> gerna: to'e ki'u je ba
04:08 < mensi> (0[{<(1to'e ki'u)1 je ba> KU} VAU])0
04:08 < gleki> ilmentufa cfila
04:55  * nuzba @panabsent: loi panci be .aunaisai mi cu xlali .i .uecu'i loi xasne .e loi carvi lemi cutyti'e ba'o cimygau #lojban [http://bit.ly/1Q64e0m]
05:31 < zipcpi> I've been thinking about that "hmm..." problem I brought up yesterday... about an attitudinal for contemplation. Is there another language that uses a sound with more Lojbanic phonotactics? :p
05:32 < zipcpi> Trying to recall what Chinese uses...
05:33 < zipcpi> Also what should its negation (and neutral if applicable) be?
05:33 < gleki> en:y
05:33 < mensi> y = [Y] hesitation noise; maintains the floor while speaker decides what to say next.
05:34 < zipcpi> Yes, but that is considered "invisible" to the grammar, rather than a real attitudinal
05:34 < zipcpi> And you might not actually be wanting to say anything
05:34 < gleki> re'inai
05:34 < zipcpi> I've thought of {a'uro'e}
05:35 < gleki> utterances can contain unspoken words too
05:37  * zipcpi shrugs... just thinking if people are resorting to {sei pensi} there might be an actual hole that needs filling
06:29  * nuzba @kencf0618: What correlates with the least error? Using Lojban? [http://bit.ly/1BlrH6N]
06:31 < gleki> off: to'e ki'u je ba
06:32 < mensi> ([{<to'e ki'u> <je ba>} KU] VAU)
06:32 < gleki> alta: to'e ki'u je ba
06:33 < mensi> ([{<(¹to'e ki'u¹) (¹je ba¹)> KU} {FA ZOhE}] [CU {COhE SF} VAU])
07:22 < _mukti_> coi la .ilmen.
07:22 < Ilmen> coi
07:24 < gleki> coi re my
07:35 < _mukti_> coi la gleki .i xu do kancu my li re
07:37 < gleki> xu la ilmen na me my
07:58 < _mukti_> ie cafne fa la .ilmen. cu me la la menli
07:58 < _mukti_> su
07:58 < _mukti_> ie cafne fa lo nu la .ilmen. cu me la la menli
08:00 < gleki> Sutysisku now uses a unified template for all languages. Muplis too. localization strings are in separate files. Pls check if everything got broken.
08:01 < gleki> no visual changes should be visible
08:17 < Ilmen> coi
08:18 < Ilmen> mi'e pa me re my
08:20 < durka42> coi mensi si menli
08:20 < Ilmen> mi'e mensli
08:20 < Ilmen> zo'o
08:21 < Ilmen> coi do
08:22 < _mukti_> coi la durkavore
08:24 < Ilmen> doi la _mukti_ .i xu do sanji tu'a la virtu'ale jbogu'e
08:24 < _mukti_> na go'i .i vyjy cu mo
08:24 < Ilmen> ku noi la cadgu'a ke'a gunka
08:24 < Ilmen> #jboguhe
08:25 < Ilmen> to se .irci toi
08:25 < Ilmen> .i sa'u nai la cadgu'a cu gunka loka zbasu lo cibycimde jbogu'e sepi'o lo tutci pe la re moi nunji'e
08:26 < _mukti_> ua
08:26 < _mukti_> .i mi milxe lo ka se slabu la re moi nunji'i
08:26 < _mukti_> si nunji'e
08:26 < Ilmen> http://i.imgur.com/ylA8T6U.jpg
08:26 < Ilmen> http://i.imgur.com/ylA8T6U.jpg
08:27 < Ilmen> oi mintu
08:27 < Ilmen> http://ldlework.com/jboguhe_night.png
08:27 < _mukti_> .i xu lojbo
08:28 < Ilmen> sa'u lo virtu'ale tumla cu za'o kunti
08:28 < Ilmen> .i se gunka sa'u
08:29 < Ilmen> .i la cadgu'a cu te sidbo fi lo du'u pilno fi lo nu jbobau ctuca mu'a
08:29 < _mukti_> .i xu lo sofybakni cu zvati .i xu zvati le purdi .i xu purdi
08:30 < Ilmen> .i .ie mi'a nitcu lo nu mu sofybakni cu zvati .i go zvati gi jbogu'e
08:30 < Ilmen> .u'i
08:35 < _mukti_> .u'i ie
08:35 < _mukti_> .i mi stidi lo nu zasti fa ge lo purdi gi le purdi
08:43 < akmnlrse> su'o dinju poi se sruri .i la jbolazni kafybarja
08:43 < akmnlrse> .i lo ricfoi pe lo nu ciksi lo gadri citri .i lo makfa vinji se ju pinji
08:43 < _mukti_> melbi sidbo
08:44 < _mukti_> sruri fa lo tadni poi dasni lo mapku
08:44 < akmnlrse> ie
08:44 < Ilmen> .u'i
08:45 < _mukti_> .i li'a nitcu lo pavyseljirna
08:45 < _mukti_> .e lo bergu
08:46 < akmnlrse> .ei da muzga gi'e vasru lo cribe je lo karce poi catra ri
08:46 < Ilmen> ti ba'o karce .i ti ba'o cribe
08:47 < akmnlrse> ti za'o zdani
08:47 < Ilmen> ti me la mlatu
08:47 < Ilmen> (Mr Cat)
08:48 < _mukti_> ua sai .i lo ractu no'u me la'o zoi Mr. Rabbit zoi
08:49 < akmnlrse> la mlatu cu simsa lo spati monsuta pe la durka sei co'a sanji
08:50 < Ilmen> mi kucli lodu xukau suo jbopre pu vitke lonu lo loglo cu jmaji la re moi nunji'e
08:51 < akmnlrse> cumki zua lepo la gleki ga .... meoi go'i zeei preda
08:52 < Ilmen> ti'e jmaji ca ro jeftu
08:52 < akmnlrse> nu xaksu fa lo nu fau gi ralte lo nunji'e re moi kliienti gi na vitke
08:53 < rutytar> coi
08:53 < akmnlrse> coi
08:53 < Ilmen> ie
08:54 < akmnlrse> lo ro moi pu fasnu de'i li D 23
08:54 < Ilmen> ku'i ti'e ze'a lo jeftu be li ji'i pa zo'u la .randol.xolmz. cu brito klama gi'e la'a na mutce lo ka re moi nunji'e vitke
08:55 < gleki> Ilmen: mi puzusai vitke la remo nunji'e i la vensa ce mi ce lo loglo pu vitke
08:56 < Ilmen> ua
09:03 < gleki> mudri: pe'isaipei la guskant cu so'iva'e certu lo ka stika le uitki
09:03 < gleki> oi
09:03 < gleki> _mukti_: pe'isaipei la guskant cu so'iva'e certu lo ka stika le uitki
09:03 < gleki> mudri: ju'inai
09:04 < mudri> .u'i
09:06 < gleki> so'i my
09:10 < _mukti_> ie mi mutce lo ka sinma la .guskant. gi'e ckire fi lo nu gunka tu'a la uitki
09:12 < akmnlrse> nu xaksu ba'e *kei* fau'u do
09:13 < gleki> ma xaksu ma
09:13 < akmnlrse> sa'u mu pu za gerna srera gi'e na .e'andyse'i lo ka na dragau
09:14 < gleki> ma smuni zo'oi se poi logbanu rafsi
09:14 < akmnlrse> lo me zo sefsi moi vau ru'a
09:15 < gleki> xu zo'oi te se pilno gi'a jai se stidi
09:15 < akmnlrse> na se ganse mi
09:15 < gleki> e'u srana lo ka cmalu
09:16 < akmnlrse> nedrlanda xu krasi
09:17 < gleki> fraso ju nedrlanda
09:17 < akmnlrse> je'e
09:17 < gleki> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ette
09:18 < akmnlrse> zo'o mi gismu merli .algoritma .i mi na ka'e ganse tu'a lo fatne ke lerfu porsi
09:20 < gleki> zo kliiente
09:20 < gleki> se jmina ei
09:22 < akmnlrse> .i'e pei ka ce ce tavla gi'e se selfu vau ta'i ce noi protokolo
09:22 < akmnlrse> (to zo protokolo toi)
09:22 < akmnlrse> (to bejyjva xu toi)
10:12 < akmnlrse> Ilmen: .e'u catlu gi'e lacpu ti
10:12 < akmnlrse> https://github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/pull/113
10:13 < Ilmen> vi'o
10:13 < akmnlrse> (to nabmi fa di'e toi)
10:13 < akmnlrse> exp: to'e ki'u mo
10:13 < mensi> ([to'e {ki'u KU} LUhU] [CU {mo VAU}])
10:16 < Ilmen> mi pavmeigau
10:17 < akmnlrse> di'ai nai doi xorlybradi le'o le'o le'o
10:17 < Ilmen> .u'i ŭanai
10:18 < durka42> lo'u cu TERMS SELBRI le'u uesai
10:18 < durka42> xu zo cu co'a selsmucau
10:19 < Ilmen> cizra mi ji'a
10:19 < akmnlrse> na go'i .i lo .gi'ek. co'a vlipa simsa lo .gek.
10:19 < akmnlrse> .i ki'e pavmeigau
10:20 < durka42> exp: da cu de di broda
10:20 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "b" found.
10:20 < akmnlrse> {lo blabla cu lo bleble cu blibli gi'e lo bloblo cu blublu} = {lo blabla cu blibli lo bleble gi'e blublu lo bloblo}
10:20 < durka42> fegli
10:21 < Ilmen> .u'i
10:21 < zipcpi> Hey maybe that's better than broda/brode etc lol
10:21 < durka42> zo cu binxo zo gu pe lo loglo
10:21 < zipcpi> But they are lujvo technically
10:21 < durka42> .e'u sai na pavmeigau .u'i
10:22 < akmnlrse> so'o roi ku mi ganse lo nu mi ja lo drata cu pilno lo simsa be lu «mi broda gi'e soi broda vau brode» li'u .i lo tai nu pilno na fegli mi
10:23 < durka42> do pilno lo re me zo cu ne'i lo pa bridi
10:23 < durka42> spaji sai sai
10:23 < akmnlrse> .i va'o lo nu ro da xebni zo'u mi na pante lo nu vimcu
10:24 < durka42> ju'o mi sutra frati .i fegli mi .i ku'i ko na tinju'i lo xebni
10:25 < durka42> ku'i mi djica lo velcki ja selstidi poi clamau lo gitxabi pavmeigau bo notci
10:26 < akmnlrse> vi'o .i .ai uitki ja mriste skicu
10:26 < durka42> je'e
10:26 < akmnlrse> gi'a jai gau .aptudeite be di'a fai lo cenba vreji
10:27 < akmnlrse> sei bregau
10:27 < lojbab> nuncenba papri .i nuncenba papri .i nuncenba papri
10:27 < selpahi> ue
10:27 < gleki> ue
10:27 < durka42> ue nai
10:28 < selpahi> ze'i faumlu fa lo nu la .lojbab. cu .irci
10:28 < gleki> o'u
10:28 < akmnlrse> xe'e
10:28 < durka42> li'a mi jai gau faumlu
10:28 < gleki> i ba'e mi na zgana lo nu lo irci cu cenba lo ka se cmene makau
10:29 < durka42> .u'anaidai
10:30 < gleki> ma xe fanva zoi gy. decomposing [lujvo] .gy. fi lo ponjo e lo rusko e lo spano e lo fraso e lo spero
10:33 < durka42> zo katna xu
10:34 < gleki> la'a
10:37 < gleki> mu'a http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/sutysisku
10:40 < selpahi> .e'o ro da jmina fi http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_To-Do
10:40 < gleki> jmina ma
10:40 < selpahi> ro mapti
10:41 < gleki> ki'u ma CLL de'a se favgau
10:41 < selpahi> la'a lo nu tolzdi
10:42 < gleki> lo nu BPFK pilno lo glico cu tolzdi mi
10:43 < zipcpi> I've seen that old discussion about how difficult it is to turn Lojban into pure logic... well... just avoid all attitudinals, tanru, and fi'o, and *maybe* you're good to go! :p
10:43 < gleki> en:cogwheel
10:43 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
10:43 < gleki> how so?
10:43 < gleki> en: engranaje
10:43 < mensi> engranaje = x1 is a gear, gear wheel (toothed) |>>> See vraga, pulni, cabra |>>>
10:43 < mensi> gleki
10:43 < gleki> je'e
10:43 < zipcpi> Well, bridi are still predicates
10:44 < zipcpi> Oh yeah also avoid all ill-defined/undefined predicates :p
10:44 < gleki> indeed, the only worthwhile predicate is {badna}.
10:44 < zipcpi> ie u'i
10:44 < selpahi> I do avoid fi'o and tanru.
10:45 < durka42> boooring zo'o
10:45 < selpahi> Almost all my tanru are je-tanru or srana-tanru
10:45 < gleki> "boring {zo'o}" or "Boring, zo'o"?
10:45 < durka42> the second one
10:46 < zipcpi> I do like the attitudinals though; it's just that they didn't really have a system and so we're stuck with the mess we have now T.T
10:47 < selpahi> BPFK made them less messy
10:47 < selpahi> At least the ones starting with e-
10:48 < zipcpi> I don't remember enough to know what had changed
10:48 < durka42> co'ok
10:48 < selpahi> co'o
10:49 < selpahi> BPFK needs to talk about connecting different illocutions
10:49 < gleki> making a multilingual sutysisku would be impossible uinai
10:50 < selpahi> I think And and xorxes disagreed on the topic
10:52 < ldlework> coi
10:53 < gleki> which issue should be fixed next? https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/issues
10:56 < zipcpi> What is fancylojban anyway?
10:56 < gleki> search for la'au/du'au
10:57 < zipcpi> la'au is fancylojban? I've been using it normally :p
10:57 < gleki> en: du'au
10:57 < mensi> du'au = [LAhE] Text to bridi conversion |>>> Roughly equivalent to just la'e, but precise about the type of the result.
10:57 < mensi> Inverse of lu'au. |>>> latros
10:57 < zipcpi> Ooh that could be useful
10:58 < gleki> en: la'au
10:58 < mensi> la'au = [LU] start grammatical name quotation; the quoted text is an identifier and must be grammatical on its own. |>>>
10:58 < mensi> Used to make more complex names where simple la doesn't apply, e.g. some book/song titles. Artibrary non-lojban text can
10:58 < mensi> be quoted with la'o. See also lai'e of LAhE, la'ai of LOhU and la'o of ZOI for naming cmavo. |>>>
10:58 < mensi> djeikyb
10:58 < gleki> Artibrary
10:58 < selpahi> ie .i mi pu za viska
10:58 < gleki> non-lojban=>non-Lojban
11:06 < ldlework> It'd be cool if someone could tell people about the jbogu'e sim on facebook
11:07 < zipcpi> Is {ra'anai} good for "regardless of X"?
11:08 < ldlework> zipcpi: I like it
11:53 < rutytar> could someone explain the bots on here?
11:54 < selpahi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/IRC_Bots
11:54 < rutytar> cool
12:01 < akmnlrse> pei zo'u da cmavo fi lo ka zbasu lo liste poi tarti lo ralju be lo me lo terjoma moi be'o je ku'i lo ka lo du'u xo kau su'a zei sumti cu su'a zei sumti ce'u na vajni
12:02 < akmnlrse> mu'a {ga'oi je mi do ti ta nu'u} = {mi je do je ti je ta}
12:03 < selpahi> xu do se slabu zo ci'ai
12:03 < akmnlrse> en: ci'ai
12:03 < mensi> ci'ai = [UI] discursive: marks an utterance as using something that is experimental/not official, especially
12:03 < mensi> experimental grammar |>>> In some sense, functions as an error marker or an error quote (but without the quote). |>>>
12:03 < mensi> krtisfranks
12:03 < selpahi> .oi
12:03 < akmnlrse> na slabu
12:03 < selpahi> go'i ra'o
12:03 < akmnlrse> .i ma drata gi'e smuni
12:04 < selpahi> .i simsa lo do sidbo .i la'a pu za lo nanca be li ji'i re cu finti fa mi .i lo te frica zo'u lo jalge cu selbrisle
12:04 < selpahi> ba'a nai ru'e
12:04 < selpahi> .i .ei mi facki
12:04 < akmnlrse> ua
12:05 < selpahi> la'a lo raktu poi nu fackytoi cu bradu'e
12:05 < selpahi> .i mi masno lo ka sisku fi lo pagbu be lo laldo selsku
12:05 < akmnlrse> na sarcu
12:06 < selpahi> .i na lojbo .i ja'o na pagbu lo korpora
12:13 < selpahi> nu tcidu lo laldo vreji
12:13 < selpahi> .i ge'enmo sai
12:13 < selpahi> .i so'i xajmi je so'i se badri cu pagbu
12:13 < selpahi> (to li ny 2013 toi)
12:15 < akmnlrse> yy .ei pei no roi ba tcidu su'o purci be ru
12:15 < akmnlrse> sei baknykalcyvi'i
12:16 < selpahi> MI ZVAFA'I
12:16 < selpahi> 20:10 < selpa`i> ci'ai (CIhAI [CIhAI~="infinite SUMTI"-ME]) = x1 is one of the set members SUMTI * n.  {ro ci'ai mi ta cu nelci do} == {mi .e ta nelci do}. {su'o ci'ai mi ta cu nelci do} == {mi .a ta nelci do}.  {ro ci'ai lo prenu lo du'u da ze'e jmive kei lo nunpanpi lo namcu cu ka'e se pensi}.
12:17 < akmnlrse> selcmi ti'e .i je'e je'e
12:17 < selpahi> 20:10 < Ilmen> looks cool
12:17 < selpahi> 20:12 < tsani> Unusual for you to be making up cmavo.
12:17 < selpahi> .u'i
12:17 < akmnlrse> pf
12:17 < selpahi> (to mi pu morji di'u toi)
12:18 < selpahi> .i ku'i plixau za'a
12:20 < akmnlrse> lo nu na se pagbu lo terjoma zo'u la'a xamgu
12:20 < selpahi> lo prenu ba tolmo'i lo du'u do ma kau pu cusku .i lo prenu ba tolmo'i lo du'u do ma kau pu zukte .i ku'i lo prenu no roi ba tolmo'i lo du'u gau do ri ma kau cinmo
12:22 < akmnlrse> (to nandu milxe va'o lo nu so'i ti'e zasti no roi se cinmo toi)
12:24 < selpahi> ma na cinmo
12:24 < akmnlrse> lo se nandu
12:25 < akmnlrse> .u'u .i cusku lo na srana be su'o srana
12:25 < selpahi> xu na ku lo ji'a se nandu be lo ka cinmo cu morji lo du'u gau lo drata vo'a ma kau cinmo pu
12:26 < akmnlrse> lo parbi cu la'a frica lo fadni
12:26 < selpahi> .i .i'e la .niftyg. cu zenba lo ka lo nu ce .irci cu cafne
12:26 < selpahi> #kodùndafimifelotòrmaujùfra
12:27 < akmnlrse> mi .a'uzga lo nu ma kau pe la to'anzu cu danfu
12:28 < akmnlrse> .i zu'u nai lo ni lo to'anzu valsi ja jufpau cu tordu cu jai jai ri'a na sarcu fai lo nu torzengau
12:28 < MC_Mruli> na ka'e pencu ti
12:28 < MC_Mruli> .i ie go'e
12:28 < MC_Mruli> da'i
12:29 < akmnlrse> (to .ei da tadji lo ka benji lo zgibite fujafojafi'a lo se .irci toi)
12:29 < akmnlrse> jbo: benji
12:29 < mensi> benji = x1 cfagau lo nu x2 muvdu x3 fi x4 |>>> srana fa zo cpacu .e zo mrilu |>>>
12:29 < mensi> Ilmen
12:29 < akmnlrse> fu
12:30 < MC_Mruli> lu pencu .e'a nai li'u maptymau lo rilti
12:30 < MC_Mruli> sisifi
12:32 < MC_Mruli> xu do tirna lo nu lo prenu cu sanga
12:32 < _mukti_> ua xu tcika tu'a lo mruli
12:32 < akmnlrse> lo nu ma poi prenu cu sanga ma
12:32 < akmnlrse> KO SISTI .I GO'E
12:32 < MC_Mruli> ie .u'i mruli tcika
12:32 < MC_Mruli> .u'i
12:35 < MC_Mruli> lo selsa'a pe lo fengu
12:35 < MC_Mruli> .i me lo na ba di'a selfu moi lo zgike
12:35 < akmnlrse> za'o na
12:36 < MC_Mruli> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47E2tfK5QAg
12:36 < phenny> MC_Mruli: Do you hear the people sing? - Les Miserables - High res, w/ lyrics - YouTube
12:37 < akmnlrse> .ai cpacu va'o lo nu na'e mabla ke kibro jorne
12:37 < MC_Mruli> su da pe la fircku pu djica lo nu lojbo versiio
12:37 < MC_Mruli> .i mi pu zi ze'i fanva
12:41 < MC_Mruli> .i ta'o lo'u pu zi le'u fa'u lo'u zi pu le'u zo'u xu spofu
12:42 < MC_Mruli> .i mi kanpe je nai djuno
12:42 < akmnlrse> {pu ku fasnu fa lo nu zi broda} != {pu zi fasnu fa lo nu broda} si'au
12:43 < akmnlrse> .i lu zi pu li'u simlu lo ka se smuni va'o po'o lo nu temci litru
12:44 < akmnlrse> (to lo ka se smuni lo plixau toi)
12:45 < akmnlrse> .i do ma te smuni be lu zi pu li'u
12:45 < MC_Mruli> xu ka'e simsa lu ba zi li'u ue ru'e
12:46 < akmnlrse> ka'e norna'e je cu la'a na nibli
12:46 < MC_Mruli> zi fasnu lo nu pu broda
12:47 < akmnlrse> [ba] zi fasnu fa lo nu pu [tormau ze'ei zi] broda
12:47 < akmnlrse> ie
12:47 < MC_Mruli> zo fa nonselji'u
12:48 < akmnlrse> xu ma'i lo me do moi zo fasnu cu se smuni lo ka zasti gi'e logbanu zei koi zei dunli
12:49 < MC_Mruli> ua nai ru'e
12:49 < MC_Mruli> ua ru'e bu'o
12:49 < akmnlrse> va'i xu mu'a lo nu lo djacu cu muvdu cu fasnu lo nu lo remna cu limna
12:50 < MC_Mruli> na me mi moi fa di'u .i ku'i da'i cumki
12:50 < MC_Mruli> .i lo me mi moi cu dunli lo me do moi
12:50 < MC_Mruli> .i go'i xu
12:51 < MC_Mruli> .i tersumei li pa
12:51 < akmnlrse> mi pilno tai lo nu go'i
12:51 < akmnlrse> .i sruma lo natfe ki'u tu'a zo fau
12:52 < akmnlrse> lu'u to po'o nai toi
12:52 < MC_Mruli> je'e
12:52 < MC_Mruli> .i zo fau simsa lo xorbanu me zo ju
12:52 < MC_Mruli> .i ta'o xu betri fa lo nu da'i facki lo du'u lu pu zi li'u naldra .i da'i barda
12:53 < akmnlrse> cumki fa lo nu krinu lo nu na ku lo ro sumtcita cu dunsi'u
12:54 < MC_Mruli> .i'a .i ku'i ta'e ku lo jbopre cu cusku tai lo nu na vajni fa lo du'u zo pu ji kau zo zi pa moi
12:55 < akmnlrse> xu ja'a go'i
12:55 < MC_Mruli> ga'a mi go#i
12:55 < akmnlrse> mi ganse no simsa (to se ja'e la'a lo nu mi ze'i jbopre toi)
12:55 < MC_Mruli> .i mi djuno fi su'o so'o mupli jbopre
12:56 < MC_Mruli> .i mi ji'a menre lo tai pilno
12:56 < MC_Mruli> .i la .xorxes. cu go'i
12:56 < akmnlrse> ue
12:56 < MC_Mruli> .i mu'a lu mi pu broda zi lo djedi be li re li'u
12:56 < MC_Mruli> .i ji'a lu za lo mentu do ba kanro li'u
12:57 < MC_Mruli> .i ju'o la .alis. je la .oz. cu se pagbu so'o simsa
12:57 < akmnlrse> lo pa moi zo'u .i'a .i lo re moi zo'u sa'ei .uat.
12:57 < MC_Mruli> je'e uatsku
12:58 < akmnlrse> .i cumki fa lo nu mi dukse co junri co tersmu lo me lo sko'opu moi .i za'a dai lu TAG ze'a TAG li'u zo'u go'i
12:59 < akmnlrse> sasa.i no'e srana
12:59 < akmnlrse> .i mi na djuno
12:59 < MC_Mruli> .ei lanli lo sko'opu nabmi .i .ei drani fa lo ma'a selsku
13:00 < akmnlrse> je'e vi'o doi jdasku ju .emsi
13:07 < Ilmen> coi
13:25 < MC_Mruli> si'au la .alis. na se pagbu .i ku'i la nu binxo ja'a go'i
13:31 < akmnlrse> (to sisku fi lo menli nenri ji lo se sfaile toi)
13:31 < akmnlrse> ta'o http://mw.lojban.org/papri/nu_curmi_lo_nu_lo_sumti_cu_jbini_zo_cu_joi_lo_selbri .i .a'o lo prosa na dukse lo ka to'e klina
13:32 < MC_Mruli> pilno CTRL su'i F
13:32 < akmnlrse> .o'u bu'o
13:33 < MC_Mruli> .ai zi ru'e tcidu
13:35 < akmnlrse> {za lo masti be li ji'i pa ba lo nu la .gregor. cu binxo} -> simsa lu {co'a ko'a co'u ko'e} li'u lo ka ca lo nu ce'u na tcita su'o sumti cu filseljmi fa lo du'u sko'opu frica kei ju'ei ca lo nu ja'a tcita cu simlu lo ka na frica
13:36 < MC_Mruli> ie
13:47 < MC_Mruli> mi mo'u tcidu i zo'o gau ko la lojbab cu viska
13:48 < akmnlrse> ku'i xu nai ga'a ri ji'a la ka pilno cu me'au la ka jdice
13:48 < akmnlrse> sa .i fa'o
13:49 < MC_Mruli> la zbabu cu jinvi lo du'u ro srana be lo smuni cu se jdice la ka pilno
13:50 < akmnlrse> .ei ku'i la ka pilno cu jmaji gi'e casnu
13:50 < Ilmen> .u'i
13:53 < akmnlrse> fi'o mabla fi'o se mabla fi'o te mabla ku ze'u lo djedi mi na gunka su'o lo se bilga .i ge'e .i lo ba'o fasnu ba'o fasnu
13:54 < MC_Mruli> go'i ra'o
13:54 < MC_Mruli> (to .u'i toi)
13:54 < MC_Mruli> .i ie mabla mabla
13:55 < akmnlrse> lo ba'o fasnu ba'o fasnu ba'e fi'o gerku do
13:55 < MC_Mruli> .i ki'u ma la tcizbagynai na mulgau
13:55 < MC_Mruli> .oi sai se'i
13:57  * nuzba @LabCoatPerson: I've decided I'm going to learn Lojban. [http://bit.ly/1AufotN]
13:58 < MC_Mruli> .o'i ko na go'i ! .i do no roi ba co'u gunrizu
13:58 < akmnlrse> lakne sei .a'ernaiva'u
14:04  * nuzba @LabCoatPerson: @strikingwolf14 A language. A human language. The reference: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll [http://bit.ly/1AugllN]
14:19 < akmnlrse> co'o ba'o tcidu be zo co'o
15:56 < mustotto> hi
15:57 < mustotto> how can I say things to do in lojban
16:07 < niftg> {lo se gasnu}/{lo se zukte}? (I'm not sure.)
16:14 < RocketBabe> mi citka li pavo plise
16:14 < RocketBabe> ^_^
16:18 < niftg> la'a lo pavo plise do pu kukte
16:21 < RocketBabe> ui go'i
16:32 < RocketBabe> rodo mo
16:34 < RocketBabe> roko dafsku
16:34 < niftg> .u'u mi bazi co'u jundi
16:36 < niftg> .i la'oi #jbosnu ji'a se irci gi'e plixau fi lo nu jbobau casnu
16:37 < RocketBabe> mi nintadni la lojban
16:37 < niftg> fi'i do
16:38 < RocketBabe> ki'e
16:42 < niftg> .i ku'i mi cliva .ai .ei .i co'o rodo
17:31 < pimlu> coi
17:36 < idyn> coi ro do
18:33 < pimlu> coi .idyn.
18:34 < idyn> coi
18:34 < idyn> .i do mo
18:35 < pimlu> .i doi .idyn. .ei zdani gunka ca la'o gy memorial day gy .oiru'e
18:37 < idyn> Oh
18:38 < pimlu> .i xu la lojban cu cnino do
18:38 < pimlu> .i cumki fa lonu na go'i
18:39 < idyn> I'm not entirely new
18:39 < idyn> I was going to ask you the same thing though
18:39 < pimlu> yeah, I'm not surprised lol
18:39 < pimlu> I need to pay attention to lojban chat more again
18:39 < idyn> Yeah, same.
18:39 < pimlu> I can't even tell who's new and who's not anymore cause I'm not around enough
18:40 < idyn> I've been here for a few months
18:40 < pimlu> I was going to make the shift this summer and start chatting regularly again, but work has made me even more busy lol
18:40 < idyn> Oh
18:40 < idyn> Yeah, I'd imagine.
18:41 < idyn> I've been pursuing other things, I'd acquired a basic understanding of Lojban, and I just went "well, I can do that sort of, time to do something else", so I started learning Esperanto.
18:43 < pimlu> I've been meaning to put time towards esperanto for a while >.<
18:43 < pimlu> there's so many things I want to do at once, but then I end up doing just a few
18:44 < idyn> Yeah, I know the feeling,
18:44 < pimlu> though with this internship, that's been reduced to "none of them"
18:44 < idyn> Oh, yikes. Any job you're aiming for?
18:44 < pimlu> what do you mean
18:44 < pimlu> ?
18:45 < idyn> Idk, I barely know you, and we're speaking through the internet, it sounds like you're dissatisfied with your job.
18:45 < pimlu> well you're not entirely wrong; I like my job, I just don't like 60 hour work weeks...
18:46 < idyn> 60 hours? Oh man, that's ten hours a day, six days a week? You should ask if you can reduce your hours(unless there is some complication).
18:47 < pimlu> close- twelve, five days, though it varies
18:47 < pimlu> including commute, definitely over twelve
18:47 < pimlu> but I did ask, and they said no :|
18:48 < idyn> Sorry man, that's too bad.
18:48 < pimlu> yeah, it happens I guess
18:49 < idyn> best of luck
18:49 < pimlu> ki'e
18:50 < idyn> well
18:50 < idyn> I'm gonna go now
18:50 < idyn> co'o
18:50 < pimlu> co'o di'ai
18:51 < idyn> go'i
19:34 < nejni-marji_> en: cu'au
19:34 < mensi> cu'au = universial famyma'o: terminates the most recently opened construct or clause. |>>> cu'au looks back for the most
19:34 < mensi> recently opened construct that has not been terminated, and emulates whatever famyma'o would terminate it. It can also
19:34 < mensi> be subscripted with xi, and will terminate that many times. Note that that means grammatical function is being put in a
19:34 < mensi> xi clause, so be careful when using it. Additionally, cu'au xi ro will terminate all the way up to the last
19:34 < mensi> sentence-starting word (.i mi klama lo zarci pe lo pendo be mi cu'au xi ro -> .i mi klama lo zarci pe lo pendo be mi
19:34 < mensi> cu'au-be'o-ku-ge'u-ku-vau). This will also terminate to sentences started in lu (will NOT emulate li'u UNLESS used
19:34 < mensi> multiple...
19:34 < mensi> [mo'u se katna] http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/cu'au
19:35 < nejni-marji_> camxes: +exp mi klama lo zarci cu'au
19:35 < camxes> (mi [CU {klama <lo zarci cu'au> VAU}])
19:35 < nejni-marji_> .u'i
19:36 < nejni-marji_> camxes: +exp klama lo zarci cu'au xi ro
19:36 < camxes> (CU [klama {lo zarci cu'au <xi (¹ro BOI¹)>} VAU])
23:02  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: xamgu cabdei    doi lo jbopre bu'u lo ropno .i uisai      #lojban [http://bit.ly/1cfsrni]
23:45 < gleki> mensi: doi fpcale|selp|omni e'o do jmina lo valsi be zo ci'ai JVS
23:45 < mensi> gleki: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.fpcale|selp|omni.gy. di'a cusku da
--- Day changed Tue May 26 2015
01:59 < Ilmen> coi
02:00 < gleki> coi
02:00 < gleki> i u'ise'i mi ca finti lo cfika
02:44  * nuzba @Rodericus: Y os pondría canciones rap de YouTube en lojban, la «lengua inventada lógica», pero aún no la entiendo tanto. #FrikiConRetraso…Temporal [http://bit.ly/1SzQKxV]
03:39 < gleki> http://getanswerz-hugo.s3-website-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/tags/lojban.html
07:10 < gleki> how to say "Add as a search engine" in French and Japanese?
07:10 < gleki> and Esperanto
07:13 < niftg> kucli lo du'u ma kau se jmina fi lo liste pe la'o zoi search engine zoi
07:14 < gleki> ua coi la niftyg
07:14 < niftg> coi uinmo
07:14 < gleki> xu do kakne lo ka sidju mi lo ka fanva fi lo ponjo
07:20 < niftg> .au mi dafsku ba lo nu mi djuno lo du'u do fanva zo'ei makau .i la'a samtci sei mi smadi
07:21 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/ja/index.html
07:21 < niftg> .uasai
07:26 < niftg> pe'i do'anai la sutysisku no'e mapti lo glico valsi po'u zoi gy search engine gy ki'u lo nu ra vlaste po'o gi'enai kibypapryste .iseju ka'e zilfanva fo zoi py 検索エンジンとして追加する py
07:27 < niftg> .ija co'e zoi py サーチエンジンとして py li'o
07:27 < gleki> *cu no'e
07:27 < niftg> .u'u
07:29 < gleki> xm i caku lo brauzero ke sisku tutci cu spofu
07:36 < gleki> co'u spofu http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/beta.html
07:48 < niek> coi
07:48 < niftg> coi niek
07:49 < niek> coi ny
07:52 < niftg> .u'i do ji'a ka'e se cmene zo ny
07:53 < selpahi> coi mi'e la nelpa'i
07:53 < mensi> selpahi: cu'u la'o gy.gleki.gy.: e'o do jmina lo valsi be zo ci'ai JVS | 2015-05-26T06:45:35.
07:53 < mensi> 892Z
07:55 < niftg> coi nelci zei prami
07:56 < selpahi> za'a do do'e la jbosnu cu cusku so'i da
07:58 < niftg> pe'aru'e mi tu'itsku fi'o se irci ri
08:01 < selpahi> ie bu'u la jbosnu lo nu spuda cu na'e cafne .i lo dei se .irci cu zmadu la jbosnu lo ka jai cafne
08:08 < niftg> la'a pilno fi lo nu marbi fi lo nu bau lo naljbo cu casnu lo lojbo
08:09 < selpahi> ie sai marbi
08:09 < selpahi> .i lo nu jbobau po'o tavla cu simsa lo nu zvati lo cilce ricfoi
08:10 < niftg> mi ta'e pilno fi lo nu xalbo casnu
08:10 < selpahi> .i lo slabymau rarbau pe ma'a cu marbi .i frilymau .i kufra
08:10 < niftg> .ie la'e di'u
08:10 < selpahi> .i zu'u nai lo nu na troci tu'a lo jbobau cu rinka lo nu na banro
08:11 < selpahi> .i lo nu pilno lo jbobau cu rinka lo nu su'o pluta cu zvati lo ricfoi .i co'a ka'e litru
08:11 < selpahi> .i xu mapti metfora .i ia go'i
08:13 < selpahi> .i ro nu jbota'a cu rinka lo nu lo ka pagre lo rictu'a cu zenba lo ka frili .i lo no'e pluta co'a je'a pluta je co'a dargu
08:15 < niftg> lo jbobau ricfoi ka'e ba tcadu simsa vau xu
08:16 < selpahi> sa'u lo ka pagre lo ricfoi poi no da pu pagre cu na'o nandu .i nandu ki'u lo nu no da pluta ja dargu .i lo demspa je lo spati je lo drata cu zunti
08:26 < niftg> puzi peisku lu mu'onaidairu'e li'u
09:10 < selpahi> coi la durka
09:10 < zipcpi> coi
09:10 < selpahi> .i xu do ji'a zmiku te benji lo spunoi
09:11 < selpahi> coi la pinguvine
09:11 < zipcpi> coi la selpa'i
09:12 < durka42> coi
09:13 < Ilmen> COI
09:13 < Ilmen> si coi
09:13 < zipcpi> mi finti zo zei'a je zo dei'a
09:14 < durka42> ue
09:15 < zipcpi> ca'e lo du'u zei'a broda cu du lo du'u zenba lo ni broda
09:15 < Ilmen> ma zenba .i .e'u zo zilzena
09:15 < zipcpi> .ije ca'e lo du'u dei'a broda cu du lo du'u jdika lo ni broda
09:16 < zipcpi> .ie zi'o zenba lo ni broda
09:16 < gleki> zo zei'a mutce ke tarmi simsa ge'e zo dei'a
09:16 < Ilmen> mi na birti lo du'u xu kau zo zi'o je'a mapti .i krinu lo nu mi na gasnu lo nu lujvo to zo zilzenba toi
09:18 < zipcpi> xu ka'e cfipu
09:18 < Ilmen> je'u cumki fa lo nu pu xagmau fa lo nu zo xoi cu simsa zo lo ja'e lo nu zo vau na ro roi ba'u sarcu .i da'i pilno zo voi ca lo nu djica co mulno bridi
09:18 < Ilmen> sei voi simsa lo nu pilno zo voi jo'u zo lo ja zo sei
09:21 < Ilmen> .i sa'u lu xoi zilzena li'u cu slaka dunli zo'oi increasingly .i slaka vo mei .i ku'i zo xoi zo'u lo famyma'o cu jai sarcu xoi cafne
09:22 < gleki> mi pu roroi djica tu'a zo xoi poi gerna dunli zo sei
09:22 < Ilmen> .i lo fasybau zo'u pilno zoi fy. de plus en plus .fy .i si'a slaka vo mei
09:23 < zipcpi> lu <zi'o broda ko'a ko'e> li'u cu dunli lu <zilbroda fa ko'a ko'e> li'u
09:24 < Ilmen> sa'u zo xoi .a lo simsa ka'e panra zo'oi -ly
09:24 < zipcpi> ie
09:24 < gleki> cizryly
09:25 < Ilmen> zo lo .e zo sei cu me'oi short-scope .i lidne na'e lo mulno bridi ja'e lo nu ta'eku rivbi tau lo famyma'o
09:26 < Ilmen> .i ca lo nu djica lo me'oi long-scope to mulno bridi toi zo'u ka'e jmina zo poi'i ja zo voi
09:27 < zipcpi> ku'i lo se glibau na roroi pilno zo'oi increasingly la'ede'u .i mu'a zoi gy. It's getting hotter .gy
09:27 < Ilmen> .i ji'a ka'e pilno zo be
09:27 < gleki> i ku'i mi djica tu'a lo ba'e adverbi ke tordu se kuspe
09:27 < Ilmen> ie
09:28 < zipcpi> zenba lo ni glare
09:28 < zipcpi> zei'a glare
09:29 < zipcpi> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4226322
09:30 < zipcpi> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4226087
09:30 < zipcpi> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4225938
09:30 < zipcpi> plixau pe'i
09:31 < gleki> Ilmen: ma xe fanva zoi gy. add as a search engine .gy.
09:31 < gleki> Ilmen: fi lo fraso
09:31 < Ilmen> Which context?
09:31 < Ilmen> ua
09:32 < Ilmen> « Ajouter en tant que moteur de recherche »
09:32 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html
09:32 < Ilmen> ("en tant que" = as)
09:32 < gleki> i je'e ki'e
09:33 < gleki> Ilmen: u'i lo fraso cu da'i simsa lo lojbo lo ni lo valsi be zo'oi as cu clani
09:34 < zipcpi> pe'i lu co'a glare zmadu li'u cu milxe malglixlu
09:35 < gleki> mo'u http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/fr-facile/index.html
09:37 < Ilmen> .i'e
09:37 < selpahi> xu la durka42 cu viska lo mi spunoi ne lo kibykarni
09:37 < durka42> go'i
09:37 < gleki> selpahi: e'u do pilno lu xu do li'u vau ju'icu'i
09:37 < durka42> mi za'o troci lo ka muljimpe lu dubeti li'u
09:38 < selpahi> lo ponjo na cusku zo do .i cusku lu la durka li'u
09:38 < durka42> .e'u nai doi la gleki .i lo nu cusku lo cmene cu klacpe
09:38 < selpahi> ie
09:38 < gleki> ge'e la mupli ze'inai na se favgau co jufra tcita
09:38  * selpahi cu vacycti
09:39 < durka42> la selpa'i cu speni la nolraitru .axacyveros.
09:40 < selpahi> xu go'i
09:41 < durka42> la vacti cu go'i
09:41 < gleki> puku da misro nolraitru gi'e se cmene zo selpa'i
09:41 < durka42> camxes: lo no'u ti broda
09:41 < camxes> ([lo {<no'u ti GEhU> broda} KU] VAU)
09:41 < zipcpi> ue do pilno lo cmene poi mixre lo cmevla joi lo brivla .i la'oi bjonas ba fengu .i zo'o
09:42 < durka42> na vajni
09:42 < gleki> exp:lo noidu ti broda
09:42 < mensi> ([lo {<noi (¹CU [du {ti VAU}]¹) KUhO> broda} KU] VAU)
09:42 < zipcpi> ua
09:43 < gleki> durka42: ki'u ma do na pilno fe mu'a lu lo me ti ku'a broda li'u a lu ti ku'a lo broda li'u
09:44 < durka42> mi terpa lo nu la selpa'i mi frica lo ka jinvi makau zo me .i'au .u'i
09:44 < gleki> i have a feeling that spammers started infiltrating LMW again.
09:47 < zipcpi> What if spammers infiltrated JVS? "vi'arga" {x1 is a pill that will make you feel like a new man! Buy from dubious supplier x2 today!} zo'o
09:47 < gleki> they probably wont since few people visit it, and it's a rareware. MediaWiki is not
09:48 < zipcpi> rareware ki'a
09:48 < gleki> rare software
09:49 < gleki> adhocware
09:49 < zipcpi> Ah, as in it's not the kind of thing that spammers would make bots for. I was just joking though :p
09:50 < gleki> ie zo porno e zo pepsi ba se jmina
09:51 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/pepsi ue u'i
09:51 < durka42> kurtynomvla
09:51 < durka42> zo skaipe ji'a
09:52 < zipcpi> simsa lo du'u la .kurtis. cu sevzi xamsku
09:53 < zipcpi> zo gugle ji'a
09:54 < durka42> pe'i .ii zo skaipe je zo gugle na .u'ivla
09:55 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/besto?bg=1;langidarg=2
09:56 < durka42> zo besto laldyrai .u'ivla
09:56 < gleki> si'au la kurtis cu spamypre
09:57 < durka42> mi cikre lo notci pe zo besto
10:45 < selpahi> Reorganized my blog a little. Added a few links
10:45 < selpahi> The Ithkuil and Gua\spi parts of the blog used to be invisible
10:47 < durka42> ue lo .itku'ile ja gu'apsi pagbu cu zasti
10:49 < zipcpi> Still don't know how Ithkuil works lol
10:50 < ldlework> selpahi: you should come visit
10:50 < selpahi> mi nitcu lo ka ce ma kibycpa
10:51 < durka42> la'oi "Singularity Viewer"
10:51 < selpahi> ko dunda lo judri lo lazni
10:52 < durka42> http://www.singularityviewer.org/downloads
10:53 < selpahi> ki'e .i xu la durka42 pu'i zvati la jbogu'e
10:54 < durka42> pa roi
10:54 < selpahi> mi pu zu zvati lo loglo stuzi
10:55 < selpahi> .i cizra selfri
10:57 < selpahi> wth
10:57 < ldlework> what's up?
10:58 < selpahi> I entered selpahi and suddenly some dude is speaking Loglan to me
10:59 < ldlework> selpahi: oh you're in secondlife?
10:59 < selpahi> Apparently
10:59 < selpahi> It's lagging.
10:59 < ldlework> selpahi: no kidding, secondlife is very intensive
10:59 < ldlework> selpahi: pm me a password you'd like to use for la jboguhe and I'll setup an account for you
11:00 < ldlework> selpahi: la jbogu'e ku is a lot easier on the cpu :)
11:05 < gleki> now i remember that selpahi, Cyril and I once visited Lojban place in SL
11:05 < ldlework> gleki: yeah?
11:06 < gleki> i even remember some ads of the Crash Course i inserted into the discussion
11:07 < ldlework> gleki: at some point I do hope you visit us
11:07 < gleki> although at that time it was called either L4N or even L4B
11:07 < ldlework> gleki: do you have students?
11:07 < gleki> ldlework: i did this long ago. it's enough for me.
11:07 < gleki> ldlework: where? what kind of students?
11:08 < ldlework> gleki: lojban students
11:08 < ldlework> are you actively teaching or lecturing?
11:09 < gleki> ldlework: nope
11:09 < ldlework> I want to try to do some classes in la jboguhe
11:09 < gleki> selpahi does
11:10 < gleki> you have the Slides, you have CC, you have total exemplification of core gimste and ma'oste. that's what I do
11:10 < ldlework> gleki: je'e
11:11 < ldlework> I'm thinking about a thing where we do shared story telling, break up into groups for topical conversation and role play, prop play, lojban games like hide and seek
11:11 < gleki> but you still dont have anti-grammarian approach in teaching Lojban. That's what la muplis is waiting for.
11:11 < ldlework> other things
11:11 < ldlework> la jenca ku already built a lojban hide and seek game that works well
11:11 < ldlework> I wonder what other kinds of games could be built like it
11:12 < gleki> create a pure audio enviroment for your world and provide people with apps with which one can enter such pure audio-rooms.
11:12 < gleki> many people dont use desktop pcs anymore.
11:12 < gleki> that's why im concerned with optimizing LMW for phones.
11:12 < ldlework> gleki: we don't have to cover everyone
11:12 < gleki> last time i talked to Brian i didnt even have to use a desktop pc
11:12 < ldlework> There's little value in participating in jboguhe activities without the spatial sense
11:14 < ldlework> If it ever became the default hangout, rather than IRC, then perhaps the text clients and voice only clients would be more useful
11:14 < ldlework> Eventually I'll setup an IRC bridge
11:14 < ldlework> And the voice just uses mumble, so we can just reuse whatever mumble we're already using
11:15 < selpahi> za'a mi ninmu
11:15 < selpahi> lo zargu ...
11:15 < selpahi> .au dasni lo drata
11:15 < ldlework> selpahi: btw there is #jboguhe
11:16 < ldlework> selpahi: we'll get you setup with a personal avatar soon
11:18 < niftg> .e'e zdile fa lo nu drata dasni
11:18 < selpahi> mi ca lunbe
11:18 < ldlework> selpahi: ko zifre xo'o
11:25 < zipcpi> {seksi}?
11:26 < zipcpi> Why is that in La Bangu dictionary u'i
11:26 < gleki> yes, in order to avoid rants about {cinse}
11:26 < zipcpi> There are rants? o.o
11:27 < zipcpi> It looks to be defined the exact same way except you didn't include the x4 place
11:27 < ldlework> Is there no word for 'swim'?
11:27 < zipcpi> limna
11:27 < ldlework> sutsis doesn't find limna when you search for swim
11:27 < ldlework> only swims
11:28 < zipcpi> oi
11:28 < gleki> zipcpi: search mriste and lojban-beginners for "sex". "te ganti" is also a keyword to search for
11:28 < zipcpi> Ooboy
11:29 < durka42> does sutsis use a stemmer?
11:29 < gleki> what is stemmer?
11:29 < gleki> en:swim
11:29 < mensi> 9 da se tolcri: limna, brabaktu, flulimna, crimpui, limla'u, mlafi'e, praune, runla'u,
11:29 < mensi> taxfrbikini
11:29 < gleki> 9 da se tolcri: limna ... <-- because glossword
11:29 < durka42> a stemmer removes suffixes from words
11:30 < gleki> where to find stemmers for all major languages?
11:30 < durka42> you're so demanding
11:30 < durka42> I know of PyStemmer
11:30 < durka42> no idea what's available for JS
11:31 < selpahi> crimpui ?
11:31 < durka42> en: crimpui
11:31 < mensi> crimpui = x1 is a prawn/shrimp [marine/saltwater specimens/species only] of taxon/species/type x2 |>>> The term "shrimp"
11:31 < mensi> is imprecise in English; in Lojban, this word refers to any and only decapod, stalk-eyed, narrow-abdomenned,
11:31 < mensi> muscularly-betailed, slender-legged, long-whiskered crustaceans with elongated bodies, that lives in saltwater/a marine
11:31 < mensi> environment, and the primary mode of locomotion of which is by swimming (especially propelled by swimmerets); the word
11:31 < mensi> is not taxonomic.  See also: praune |>>> krtisfranks
11:31 < zipcpi> gleki: I'm not sure how {seksi} avoids it though?
11:31 < durka42> "muscularly-betailed"...
11:31 < durka42> doi K ko zdakla .i do xalbebna
11:32 < gleki> 11:30 < durka42> I know of PyStemmer... <-- avoid such prefixes u'i
11:32 < gleki> and definitely i need not only for english
11:32 < gleki> probably the quickest dirty hack is to include glosswords
11:32 <@xalbo> {seksi} isn't in jbovlaste.
11:33 < gleki> zipcpi: see examples and compare it to what was in the last rant
11:33 < selpahi> zipcpi: Ithkuil is actually simple enough, but it has no vocabulary and there are too many hard-to-remember affixes.
11:34 < gleki> https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/issues/22 https://github.com/lagleki/glekitufa/issues/15
11:35 < zipcpi> You mean like mastering all the sumtcita? Would help if I actually remembered what "selma'o" they're in though :p
11:36 < selpahi> The affixes you have to remember are in the thousands
11:36 < zipcpi> oi
11:36 < selpahi> Not even counting the normal declination of words
11:36 < selpahi> that adds another couple thousand
11:37 < gleki> wth http://9ol.es/porter_js_demo.html It thinks tat "e" in "are" is a suffix
11:37 < zipcpi> Does Ithkuil even have what I have tentatively called the "incrementative" and "decrementative" case? :p
11:37 < selpahi> And I'm not sure it's worth it. Ithkuil does not seem to be more logically precise than Lojban.
11:39 < durka42> zipcpi: I googled those and came up with only Italian results
11:39 < zipcpi> lol
11:39 < durka42> of course a stemmer defeats attempts to search for things like that
11:39 < durka42> vlaste: incrementative
11:39 < vlaste> 7 results: kantu, zenba, mairka'u, samka'u, zenri'a, bai'ei, ka'au
11:39 < durka42> that's the disadvantage
11:40 < gleki> actually i found js stemmer for all major languages. and they are very short. http://urim.googlecode.com/files/jsSnowball_0.3.zip
11:40 < durka42> nice
11:40 < durka42> gleki: I recommend adding some way to disable the stemmer in a search
11:40 < durka42> with a +word or "word" or something
11:40 < durka42> in case you are really trying to search for a suffix
11:40 < gleki> comparing Ithkuil and Lojban: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SI7G0C-MoJIZ51N8jhL_7rLd6mIHA4Waq3F7w159RRs/edit?usp=drive_web
11:41 < gleki> durka42: probably will be done only for mensi. but im not sure im in the mood to do anything creative
11:42 < gleki> actually japanese is not there
11:42 < ldlework> I assume that if I established an IRC bridge for jboguhe many would *not* want it connected to this channel pei
11:43 < gleki> first try connecting it to #jboguhe so that others can assess it
11:43 < ldlework> je'e
11:43 < zipcpi> I'm quite surprise Ithkuil doesn't seem to have those two cases :p
11:44 < selpahi> Is "cases" the right term?
11:44 < zipcpi> I don't even know lol
11:44 < zipcpi> Just let me pretend that sumtcita are cases. Cause I'll never master Ithkuil. zo'o
11:45 < zipcpi> bau -> the "linguisticative"
11:46 < ldlework> o_o
11:46 < zipcpi> do'e -> the "whateverative"
11:46 < zipcpi> zo'o
11:46 < gleki> what's the difference between CNT and ICS?
11:47 < zipcpi> Heck I don't even know what the difference between the continuative and the stative is
11:49 < gleki> see examples
11:50 < gleki> although DYN is something i can never understand
11:50 < durka42> zipcpi: http://www.ithkuil.net/07_suffixes.html check out Degrees 1 and 9 of EXD
11:50 < zipcpi> lol
11:51 < selpahi> There they are
11:52 < zipcpi> Doesn't use the whateverative term that those hip linguists like to use though :p
11:52 < gleki> Degrees sometimes sound like "Sorry, I have some semantic atoms, i need to put them somewhere, let me try fit them into this degree"
11:53 < gleki> Lojban doesnt have a word for "fluctuation"
11:53 < zipcpi> Yeah... o.o
11:54 < gleki> Ithkuil has a tag for it
11:54 < durka42> slilu, ru'i cenba, boxna, etc
11:54 < zipcpi> lol time for new brivla and sumtcita
11:54 < gleki> en: spaune
11:54 < mensi> spaune = x1 (individual/entity/result) abruptly (re)spawns/appears/becomes/comes into being/existence/life by mechanism/
11:54 < mensi> under conditions x2; x2 spontaneously generates x1 |>>> Applies to video games or to quantum particle-antiparticle pairs
11:54 < mensi> from the vacuum, etc. |>>> krtisfranks
11:55 < durka42> .u'i
11:55 < zipcpi> lol
11:55 < gleki> he plays video games, that's what i understood
11:55 < gleki> en: spontane
11:55 < mensi> spontane = x1 is spontaneous in property x2 (ka) |>>> glekizmiku
11:55 < gleki> this guy doesnt
11:56 < durka42> what's wrong with slilu?
11:56 < zipcpi> Are you related to glekizmiku?
11:56 < gleki> are fluctuations oscillations?
11:56 < gleki> with period
11:56 < zipcpi> fluctuations are chaotic
11:56 < durka42> .w fluctuation
11:56 < phenny> fluctuation — noun: 1. A motion like that of waves; a moving in this and that direction, 2. A wavering; unsteadiness, 3. In medicine, a wave-like motion or undulation of a fluid in a natural or abnormal cavity (e.g. pus in an abscess), which is felt during palpation or percussion
11:57 < gleki> mi jimpe no da
11:57 < durka42> lu slilu be lo vrici li'u .u'i ru'e
11:57 < gleki> like that of waves .. but not precisely, heh?
11:57 < zipcpi> rise and fall irregularly in number or amount.
11:57 < zipcpi> "trade with other countries tends to fluctuate from year to year"
11:57 < gleki> this and that direction <-- oh, then {muvdu ti e babo ta}!
11:58 < zipcpi> u'i
11:58 < selpahi> .ebabo ti .ebabo tu .ebabo ti .ebabo ta li'o
11:58 < gleki> {ru'i cenba} obviously covers this case but says nothing of {se ganzu} style
11:58 < zipcpi> ebabo ebabo ebabo
11:58 < zipcpi> na gendra co'e ebabo
11:58 < gleki> baobabo
11:59 < zipcpi> ebabo ebabo ebabo
12:00 < zipcpi> ba daspo lo bangu ebabo
12:02 < zipcpi> na gendra se sanga noi mutce malglikslu
12:02 < zipcpi> lo prenu klama ebabo
12:05 < zipcpi> na drani cu pilno zo po'o zo ji'a
12:05 < zipcpi> lo bangu daspo ebabo
12:07 < durka42> wat r u doin
12:08 < zipcpi> Singing a silly, completely ungrammatical song :p
12:08 < durka42> je'e :)
12:11 < selpahi> na gendra cu melbi cu zifre ebabo
12:12 < ldlework> you can do that?!
12:12 < durka42> see above
12:37 < Zluglu> coi
12:38 < Zluglu> I just watched Tom Scott’s last video about machine translation, which reminds me… what’s the conlang designed for this task?
12:38 < Zluglu> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAgp7nXdkLU for the video
12:39 < zipcpi> Yeah that's the funny thing. Lojban is designed to be machine-parsable, yet we don't have any good translators
12:40 < zipcpi> Just no money in it I guess
12:43 < Vadzim> hi all! could you help me with finding list of constructed languages which are actually alive and are being spoken regularly by significant number of speakers?
12:43 < Vadzim> thank you for help
12:44 < Ilmen> Hmm, Esperanto, Toki pona
12:45 < Ilmen> There are Lojban people chatting regularly both textually and vocally, but I don't think you'd qualify their number to be 'significant'. :)
12:47 < Vadzim> comparably significant. could you mention languages besides Lojban, Esperanto and toki pona, spoken more than let's say 5 or 10 people
12:48 < selpahi> You could ask on conlang-L. I think Esperanto (Ido?), Lojban, Klingon and Dothraki are the biggest
12:48 < selpahi> not sure what happened to Na'vi
12:55 < Zluglu> Ithkuil ?
12:55 < zipcpi> lol
12:56 < zipcpi> I think even the creator can't speak Ithkuil in what you'd call fluency
12:56 < Ilmen> I've heard so
12:57 < Zluglu> :)
13:00 < durka42> whoa
13:00 < durka42> ithkuil orthography changed yesterday
13:00 < durka42> https://www.reddit.com/r/Ithkuil/comments/3787x9/official_changes_to_ithkuil_writing_system/
13:03 < Ilmen> ua
13:12 < selpahi> ... http://s17.postimg.org/az3q1zh1p/2015_05_26_22_10_29_Singularity_Viewer_la_selpa.jpg
13:24 < zipcpi> co'o
13:33 < aceron> coi    Is anyone aware if there is a Lojban Duolingo course in preogress?
13:34 < Ilmen> I've heard several time of making a Lojban course incubator, but I dunno what is its current status
13:35 < aceron> I cannot seem to find an open incubator project either, but I was hoping someone was working on it.
13:41 < selpahi> They don't seem to be interested
13:46 < aceron> They don't make it, the lojban community makes it.  New languages are community driven after they did the basic romance languages.
13:47 < selpahi> We asked them.
13:54 < selpahi> 502 on vlasisku?
14:53 < durka42> .u'e lo nu kibjasyselkei cu se ditcu lo masti be li za'u pa
16:58 < durka42> mo do
19:03 < durka42> si'au .oi mi co'a bilma
19:05 < niftg> koko kurji .ija koko xamgu
19:08 < durka42> ie ki'e
23:04 < gleki> why everyone wants a course on duolingo for lojban so much? all the courses i tried there are superweird
23:34 <@Broca> Promotion, probably.
23:35 <@Broca> "Oh, we want the Google UI in Lojban!" "Oh, we want Google Translate in Lojban!" "Obscure web service available in multiple languages? We DEMAND getting a Lojban version now!"
23:36 < gleki> if only you knew what examples they offer for translation in Duolingo exercises.
23:36 < gleki> People learn from real life examples, not from "My blanket doesn't talk" (a real example)
23:36 <@Broca> I've heard some examples.
23:37 <@Broca> "She is eating an onion"
23:37 < ldlework> The nice thing about lojban is
23:38 < ldlework> once you learn how to say "she is eating an onion"
23:38 < ldlework> you've actually learned how to say
23:38 < ldlework> "anything is anything-ing anything"
23:38 < ldlework> so you really only need one example of that form and it doesn't really matter what it is :)
23:39 < gleki> this is not how learning real languages work.
23:39 < gleki> of course one can remember zillions of arbitrary examples but forgetting them would be 10 times easier.
23:39 < ldlework> heh I know
23:39 < ldlework> I was over idealizing lojban
23:40 < gleki> So you've actually havent learn anything to say because for that you need to know place structures of verbs.
23:40 <@Broca> I don't think there is any one way of learning real languages.
23:41 < ldlework> yeah but you just use a dictionary for that
23:41 < ldlework> you can imagine that there are other verbs with other places, it doesn't matter what they are
23:41 < gleki> how to say "garlic"? - sorry, i dont know but i can tell you of predicate logic. - No! I need "garlic"! - Sorry, I dont remember that - F*ck Lojban then!
23:41 < ldlework> its why we can use ko'a and broda and such
23:41 < ldlework> because if duolingo isn't about learning form
23:41 < gleki> children dont learn from dictionaries since they can't read.
23:42 < ldlework> then you need a duolingo example for every combination of words possible
23:42 <@Broca> sunga, by the way :-)
23:42 < gleki> samsunga, yes
23:42 < ldlework> so it makes more sense that with duolingo you'd want variety in form, rather than just content words
23:43 < gleki> Duolingo uses sentences, not individual words. That's why it's much better than most Anki courses.
23:43 < ldlework> you don't learn anything if all your examples are "lo broda cu brode lo brodi
23:43 < ldlework> form
23:43 < gleki> But even for Anki/Memrise one can develop course based on examples. It's just that it doesnt happen most of the time for some reason.
23:44 < gleki> ldlework: i learn not from grammar but from real examples like {ma cmene do}. the grammar can be learnt later as a generalization of particular examples.
23:44 < ldlework> I think a good combination of vocab flashing and learning different structure forms with something like duoling
23:44 < ldlework> gleki: I have no idea what you mean
23:45 < ldlework> what does {ma cmene do} teach you other than how to ask a question, how a predicte uses two arguments, one on the left one one the right, questions are asked by using ma in place of the informmation, etc
23:45 < gleki> Wlingua although suiperficially like old drilling course in reality is a huge bank of examples. This is something opensource community should aim at. but wlingua itself doesnt add new languages.
23:45 < ldlework> do you memorize phrases? to frequently used situations?
23:45 < ldlework> I think that's a bad way to learn language
23:46 < gleki> ldlework: nope. this example teaches how to ask for someone's name. that's the main point.
23:46 < ldlework> it teaches how to ask anything
23:46 < ldlework> you can't understand why this phrase asks someone's name without explaining the mechanic behind it
23:47 < ldlework> telling some student that the phrase asks someone's name without explaining why it does seems a very strange way to teach language
23:47 < ldlework> so if you're not doing that, you must be explaining how it works
23:48 < gleki> < rlpowell> If I'm learning spanish, and I want to kno
23:48 < gleki> w how a spanish person says, oh, "my pants are covered in mud", I simply turn on
23:48 < gleki> spanish talk radio and *wait*. 
23:48 < ldlework> otherwise its just rote memorizing phrases without any ability to construct different phrases of your own
23:48 < gleki> ^ ! this quote from Riobin is of utmost importance
23:48 < ldlework> but of the same form
23:48 < gleki> *Robin
23:48 < ldlework> co'o
23:49 < gleki> co'o
--- Day changed Wed May 27 2015
01:49  * nuzba @Rodericus: @subetealanutria a a a! telo seli pimeja pi lape ala! http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/toki/#sisku/coffee [http://bit.ly/1LIgLpZ]
05:42 < zipcpi> Another stupid Lojban phonetics question:
05:42 < zipcpi> Take the pathological zi'evla {anlnda}
05:43 < zipcpi> Should it be pronounced {a,nĺn,da} or {an,lń,da}?
05:44 < zipcpi> Maybe it should mean "x1 really hates syllabic sonorants in language x2 (default Lojban)" :p
05:45 < gleki> maybe it should be banned from the language?
05:45 < zipcpi> Maybe. Go talk to the BPFK :p
05:45 < zipcpi> But then, bye bye stage-3-fu'ivla or any "safe" zi'evla prefixes
05:45 < gleki> although who cares. just dont create such words and that's all
05:47 < Phlogistique> 14:43:27 < zipcpi> Should it be pronounced {a,nĺn,da} or {an,lń,da}? <- why not accept both?
05:53 < zipcpi> What about {amrlmra} then? It could be three syllables: {a,mrĺ,mra} or four: {a,mr,lḿr,a} :p
05:54 < zipcpi> {a,mr,lḿ,ra} rather
05:55 < gocti> àn,ln,da and àm,rl,mra are canonical
05:56 < zipcpi> Huh? I always hear i,kĺ,ki and not í,kl,ki
05:56 < gocti> camxes treats consonantal syllables as always unstressed (like y-syllables)
05:58 < zipcpi> Somehow now I'm finding iklki harder to pronounce than before lol
06:00 < gocti> cipr: ikylki
06:00 < cipr> (CU [ikylki VAU])
06:00 < gocti> no need :^)
06:01 < zipcpi> Not all syllabic sonorants are resistant to breaking when filled in with {y}
06:01 < zipcpi> Especially m
06:01 < zipcpi> Although that's the rarest syllabic sonorant if I remember
06:02 < zipcpi> Not that syllabic sonorants are common anyway
06:02 < zipcpi> But m is a problem because it starts ml and mr
06:02 < gocti> I think m breaks even without a y before it
06:03 < gocti> (sanmri and samymri both have it non-syllabic)
06:04  * zipcpi nods
06:05 < zipcpi> Yeah we're going to need to run some tests. What kind of syllabic-sonorant zi'evla break when filled in with y, and what won't
06:06 < gleki> zi'evla cant have {y}
06:06 < gocti> cu'u ma
06:07 < gocti> (to mi xrubazalomentubelirèno toi)
06:10  * zipcpi digs the old files again for how to make stage-3 fu'ivla; see if he can break the system
06:12 < zipcpi> And still no one has come up with another way to Lojbanize "brie cheese" za'a
06:14 < zipcpi> exp: bri'icirla
06:15 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "b" found.
06:15 < zipcpi> Oh right slinku'i
06:16 < zipcpi> exp: ci'irlabri
06:16 < gleki> i cant restart mensi
06:16 < gleki> atm
06:16 < zipcpi> oi
06:16 < mensi> (CU [ci'irlabri VAU])
06:17 < zipcpi> Nah that's a lujvo
06:18 < zipcpi> bri'i'icirla zo'o
06:19 < zipcpi> bri'i'i is a valid zi'evla :p
06:19 < zipcpi> So is briii
06:20 < selpahi> I think your question didn't get answered, did it?
06:20 < zipcpi> What question?
06:21 < selpahi> <zipcpi> Should it be pronounced {a,nĺn,da} or {an,lń,da}?
06:21 < selpahi> It can't be the former because consonantal syllables can't have a coda
06:21 < selpahi> (outside of cmevla, the usual exception)
06:21 < zipcpi> Yeah la gocti told me how they break but not the rules
06:21 < selpahi> And the stress is off, but that's been mentioned
06:21  * zipcpi nods
06:23 < zipcpi> Also we're discussing: Will it potentially create word-boundary-ambiguity if we said that /yS/ is an allophone to all syllabic sonorants
06:23 < selpahi> Amazingly, gocti seems to have managed to add support for -y- breaking up consonantal syllables
06:23 < selpahi> I don't think so
06:24 < zipcpi> Also I came up with a potential "replacement" for cirlrbri. But it's briii :p
06:24 < zipcpi> Man I'm so breaking the language
06:25 < selpahi> Nah, you gotta try harder to break it :)
06:25 < selpahi> Besides, breaking it is better than just watching it decay from afar.
06:25 < zipcpi> la bauspo fazykamni
06:26 < zipcpi> That will be my "evil counterpart" to the BPFK :p
06:31 < selpahi> I'm sure selckiku would be happy to join you.
06:31 < gocti> .ai cipyzu'e tu'a lo .ybu zei fu'ivla se pi'o lo jbovlaste .eksemle .i kanpe fi lo barda fe lo nu ro fadni fu'ivla ka'e co'e
06:31 < selpahi> .i'e
06:37 < zipcpi> eksemle ki'a
06:37 < gocti> me'oi XML
06:42 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/briii There :p
07:01 < zipcpi> Is {nau pu} or {pu nau} an adequate replacement of {pu'au}?
07:02 < gocti> {nau pu} seems to be
07:03 < gocti> soi cizra vau di'e se jbovlaste gi'e na se tcita la .obsolete fu'ivla
07:03 < gocti> finprsinxnatfidai finprsinxnatfinai klaktno mastla mustlei postmo rartni xipfne
07:03 < gocti> *opsolete
07:03 < zipcpi> Well two things were banned since these were entered.
07:04 < zipcpi> One is [CGV]
07:04 < zipcpi> Which is banned from both zi'evla and cmevla
07:04 < gocti> I already filtered the list for CGV, where do you see it?
07:04 < zipcpi> The other is syllabic codas of more than one consonant
07:05 < zipcpi> Which is only banned in zi'evla and not cmevla
07:05 < gocti> Most of those were marked obsolete, I don't know why these weren't
07:05 < zipcpi> So mast/la, xipf/ne; all banned
07:06 < zipcpi> je'epei
07:07 < gocti> je'e ja'ai
07:13 < gocti> cipra snada
07:14 < zipcpi> Cool. No problems?
07:14 < gocti> ep
07:14 < gocti> *yep
07:15 < zipcpi> Hmm... porting {cionmau} to {ci'onmau}... but the definition is ambiguous between giant pandas and red pandas
07:15 < zipcpi> I think I'd go with the giant one; since xiong mau only refers to that
07:16 < phma> I've jokingly thought of calling the lesser panda {cionme'a}
07:16 < zipcpi> u'i
07:17 < gocti> .i'e
07:17 < gocti> si'a va'o lo nu .ambigu djica ka'e pilno zo panda sa'u
07:19 < phma> I meant it to refer to both, though only one is a bear.
07:19 < phma> And neither is a cat.
07:19 < zipcpi> Right...
07:20 < zipcpi> Yeah Chinese is "xiao xiong mao"
07:20 < zipcpi> But they're too different pe'i
07:20 < zipcpi> Really I'm so tempted to add ci'onme'a now then; no other ideas :p
07:24 < zipcpi> Well? No one's gonna come up with a better idea to stop me? :p
07:25 < gocti> ko jmina
07:29 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ci'onme'a
07:29 < zipcpi> u'i
07:50 < zipcpi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbHuoluTStg
07:51 < selpahi> .title
07:52 < zipcpi> lo ci'onme'a poi plipe xoi troci lo ka gau ce'u kalri fa lo vorme
07:53 < zipcpi> na snada jeku'i cu mutce citmle
07:59 < zipcpi> la'oi .title na akti .iseja'e bo le cmene be le skina cu vasru lo ponjo lerfu
07:59 < zipcpi> .y. xu tu'a zo vasru malglixlu
08:00 < gocti> mi so'i roi retpei la'e di'u
08:02 < zipcpi> zo marji ji'a na mapti i'au pe'i
08:02 < selpahi> zo pagbu
08:03 < zipcpi> ua
08:08 <@xalbo> I need to internalize the lujvo rules better. I read {ci'onme'a} as a lujvo with a -n- hyphen, "less young".
08:08 < zipcpi> u'i
08:12 < zipcpi> n is used iff r doesn't work
08:16 < zipcpi> me'o ny se pilno .i ba'e jo bo me'o ry na mapti
08:17 < selpahi> There are a lot of rules.
08:17 < zipcpi> ie
08:18 < selpahi> There are -r-, -n-, and -l- hyphens. One thing the {CyS} change would do is make -l- hyphens never needed anymore, reducing it only to -r- and -n- hyphens
08:19 < phma> What's the CyS change?
08:20 < phma> What about {lerldjamo}?
08:20 < selpahi> Inserting -y- to break up consonantal syllables
08:20 < selpahi> kl -> kyl
08:20 < selpahi> And cidjyrspageti
08:21 < zipcpi> That's how people that aren't certu at pronouncing syllabic consonants will pronounce them anyway
08:21 < zipcpi> So if it won't cause any breakage it might as well be allowed
08:22 < gocti> phma: leryrdjamo
08:26 < zipcpi> And just ban them from cmevla as well. I mean, why
08:31 <@xalbo> Well, in lujvo you get forced into certain letter combinations, so making them less crunchy could be a benefit. But banning things outright in cmevla doesn't make sense. If you have syllabic letters in a cmevla, it's because you want them there.
08:49 < zipcpi> I was just somewhat kidding
08:49 < zipcpi> It's just that some people Lojbanize say, Jonathan, as .djonytn.
08:49 < zipcpi> And I just don't see why
08:51 < zipcpi> And syllabic sonorants only exist in zi'evla, but they are part of the "stage-3 fu'ivla"-type zi'evla
08:52 < zipcpi> Cause it's the only known method guaranteed not to make an invalid zi'evla, while otherwise you have to play around with the word, manipulating phonemes until you get a valid zi'evla
08:54 < phma> There's nothing wrong with {djonytn}. 'n' at the end is syllabic.
08:54 < zipcpi> But why do it when {djonytyn} is perfectly serviceable :p
08:54 < phma> But {lalx} ends in two consonants, of which the second is not syllabic.
08:55 < zipcpi> Yeah I guess there's no way to properly ban them from cmevla. Just ignore me there lol
08:55 < durka42> coi
08:56 < durka42> what are the haps? zipcpi's on a crusade against syllabic consonants?
08:56 < phma> If you ban syllabic consonants from cmevla, I'm sure la .clsn. will object :)
08:56 < phma> haps ki'a
08:56 < zipcpi> je'u doi durkavore
08:56 < zipcpi> oi
08:56 < zipcpi> za'ure'u coi
08:57 < durka42> whoops wrong button
08:58 < zipcpi> Anyway, yes. Apparenty gocti ran some tests and detected no problem with converting all syllabic sonorants currently in zi'evla from [S] to [yS]
08:58 < durka42> and the pronunciation is the same?
08:59 < zipcpi> Well, phonetically, there is a difference between bat.n and bat.ən
09:00 < zipcpi> But the difference is subtle and can be difficult both to produce and hear
09:00 < durka42> I have trouble even imagining the difference
09:00 < zipcpi> But yes, as I have said, that's how people who aren't good at pronouncing syllabic sonorants *will* pronounce them anyway
09:01 < zipcpi> So if it won't break parsing, might as well make the change
09:01 < selpahi> It's quite noticeable to my ear at least. "tn" is normal in "standard german", and when someone pronounces it {tyn}, you know they are from another region
09:03 < zipcpi> A side effect is that the -l- cibyfu'ivla hyphen won't be needed anymore, because instead of lerldjamo, you can have leryrdjamo
09:05 < zipcpi> Although iklki will just be converted into ikylki
09:06 < durka42> if you're modifying every single type-3 fu'ivla and changing the hyphen rules, I think you can dare to make {kliki} in gismu-shape :D
09:06 < zipcpi> Well I did enter kli'iki
09:07 < Ilmen> la ckule zo'u mu da zo coi cusku .i .e'e memze'a
09:07 < selpahi> I think I suggested {.ikli} as an alternative
09:07 < Ilmen> coi
09:07 < durka42> memyze'a*
09:07 < gleki> obsolete ~= ba'o
09:08 < Ilmen> ki'e dragau
09:08 < selpahi> xamzega si
09:08 < zipcpi> Still don't get the {mz} ban... I've heard it's because it's too close to {mbz}. Well, {mbz} is banned now anyway :p
09:08 < selpahi> I heard it's too close to {nz}!
09:08 < zipcpi> lol
09:09 < gleki> en: klikeia
09:09 < mensi> klikeia = x1 clicks (press and release) button/switch x2 |>>> See also cuxna, batke, danre, kliki |>>>
09:09 < mensi> gleki
09:09 < zipcpi> Yeah I've seen that
09:09 < gleki> from "cliquear"
09:09 < gleki> it should ve been
09:09 < gleki> en:klike'a
09:09 < mensi> [< klina kevna ≈ Direct hole] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
09:09 < mensi> klikev[5878], klike'a[6367], klikevna[7917], klinykev[8008], klinyke'a[8497], ...
09:09 < zipcpi> lol
09:10 < gleki> although i've never used this word in any localization projects since it's hardware dependent
09:10 < gleki> or maybe not
09:10 < gleki> en:iklki
09:10 < mensi> iklki = x1 clicks (press and release) button/switch x2 to cause x3 (nu).
09:11 < gleki> i used {cuxna}. and "to click" is not a very useful concept since in most cases you can operate with keyboard
09:12 < zipcpi> Just because you can, doesn't mean you do :p
09:12 < gleki> Everson seems to be completely puzzled with Lojban. No wonder. Standard behavior, uenaisai
09:12 < zipcpi> Everson ki'a
09:13 < gleki> in the mriste
09:13 < phma> typographist
09:13 < gleki> the person who publishes only one book ba'uru'e
09:17 < zipcpi> Yeah some of the older materials probably need a rewrite; too many hapax-legomenon-use of lujvo, back during the time when that was considered normal. Useful ones should be added to the dictionary, and the rest thrown
09:17 < gleki> he is puzzled with {sei}.
09:18 < zipcpi> za'a
09:24 < zipcpi> I'm guessing because he wants to format conversations to be easier to the eye
09:24 < zipcpi> Yeah it's... actually difficult to grammatically quote a conversation in Lojban
09:25 < zipcpi> I mean, most of us don't say .i in front of every utterance
09:25 < zipcpi> Yet if you put all our utterances together they must be added
09:25 < zipcpi> Then you want to add the {sei ko'a cusku}s
09:26 < zipcpi> I would just cheat and wrap the whole thing in lo'u ... le'u, but... :p
09:31 < zipcpi> I dunno. I'm of the opinion that despite the goal of audio-visual isomorphism, a significant pause (quite a bit longer than you would pause for a full stop) might be a sufficient marker for a "new utterance"
09:33 < zipcpi> Kinda like how when we translate software into Lojban we don't worry about making the entire website parse; just each element
09:35 < zipcpi> There is no way Lojban can have a way to read images or graphical user interfaces aloud in such a way as to be parsable by a human :p
09:39 < gleki> is it even imaginable?
09:39 < gleki> definitely not pixel images. some vector-like dialects might be worth considering
09:41 < zipcpi> ti pixrapixele li panorevo li zexabi li remumu pi'e remumu pi'e no li remumu pi'e remumu pi'e no li remumu pi'e remumu pi'e pa li'o
09:41 < zipcpi> zo'o
09:41 < Ilmen> :P
09:42 < gleki> e.g. i created Snowflake logo using LibreLogo languages which is like "go 5 units to the right, then rotate 270 degress clockwise, then go 5 units forward ..."
09:43 < zipcpi> Oh I'm pretty sure it's possible to create a programming language that is also a grammatical Lojban utterance
09:43 < zipcpi> There might be a need for some new brivla and cmavo to tighten things up, but...
09:43 < gleki> I mean LibreLogo creates images but it's more or less pronounceable
09:43  * zipcpi nods
09:43 < Ilmen> zipcpi: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Writing_algorithms_in_Lojban
09:44 < gleki> look at the code to this image: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/File:snime-1.svg
09:45  * zipcpi nods
09:46 < gleki> Now when you go from sutysisku to the start screen by clicking on "la sutysisku" title you retain url parameters and thus can continue searching for the same word in sutysisku in another language
09:47 < zipcpi> I find the main problem with sutysisku as is is when I search for a very common English word, like "contain"
09:47 < gleki> en:contain
09:47 < mensi> 314 da se tolcri: vasru, bravau, selcanti, alminiu, amfora, amsake, amtisti, anmonia, arxivo, bakfu, bakri, baktu,
09:47 < mensi> benvaubo'u, berbere, birje, birjrsasafra, bisli, blaci, blacybo'i, blacykabri, boltabno, botpi, botrportcelanu, brivla,
09:47 < mensi> bu'ivla, cakla, caklyladru, caklymatne, canre, canro'i, caurma, cesycku, cidro, cimde'u, cimjvo, cirla, citybakre'u,
09:47 < mensi> ckabrceratonia, ckabrkacia, ckabu, ckafi, ckufi'i, cnisa, ctilytarla, cukta, dacru, da'erju'ebo'i, daklytcati, danmo,
09:47 < mensi> datnysri, de'emni, dertu, dicysro, dircynavni, djacu, djata'e, dotri'osanso, dracycku, fagytabno, fangynavni,
09:47 < mensi> fomke'acirla, fomvanju, furfipsanso, furjargasta, furtirse, gacybo'i, gairvau, ga'onra'itsi, gasta, gincilta, go'oi,
09:47 < mensi> grasrtagete, grasu, implicite, itlori'osanso, jalna, javni, jdacku, jdikykle, je'erma'ablaci, ...
09:48 < gleki> okay, so stemming is probably the most powerful way atm. will try to implement it
09:52 < zipcpi> Maybe a new cmavo that just means "attach to last utterance". Because right now it's actually ambiguous like, on IRC, whether you mean to add something to your last utterance or that you are starting a new utterance
09:53 < gleki> LMW told me "Gejyspa thanked you for your edit on Magic: The Gathering Cheat Sheet."
09:53 < gleki> Huh, how so? Even I dont know that it's possible to thank people.
09:53 < zipcpi> ue what cheat sheet
09:53 < gleki> the name of the page
09:53 < gleki> that i edited
09:54 < zipcpi> I didn't know that they had that
09:54 < zipcpi> I just made up all my terms when translating that one card :p
09:55 < gleki> what are those cards for?
09:55 < zipcpi> It's a game where you cast spells and summon creatures to attack the opposing player
09:55 < gleki> aha. ba'anairu'e
09:56 < zipcpi> Oh and the thanking thing
09:56 < zipcpi> If you go to History
09:56 < zipcpi> There is a "thank" after every edit that isn't yours
09:59 < gleki> now i remember. it's a relatively new feature
09:59 < gleki> of MW
09:59 < gleki> ta'o should I explain kinship terms in CC? I think not except mother/father/child/panzi/spouse. Most are culture specific.
10:00 < gleki> probably the Dictionary with examples will be enough for this.
10:00 < zipcpi> Not even brother/sister?
10:01 < gleki> idk. Imagine adapting CC to Chinese.
10:01 < gleki> Imagine Lojban was born in China.
10:01 < zipcpi> Yes, they have words for older/younger brother/sister
10:02 < zipcpi> But just say those words do not distinguish. Better than not having words at all
10:02 < zipcpi> Heck, some Lojban gismu have rather questionable scope
10:02 < zipcpi> Like {jukni} and {tirxu}
10:03 < gleki> Since La Bangu ideology adapts to ntlangs for English speakers there is no need to explain anything.
10:03 < gleki> {jukni} and {tirxu} are ignored in CC
10:03 < zipcpi> I know
10:03 < gleki> {jukni} is like folk taxonomy and {tirxu} is even more strange
10:04 < zipcpi> I don't know what's the solution for that though. Just not have words at all?
10:04 < gleki> just not using words at all if you dont want to
10:04 < zipcpi> No, I mean, what if do have to refer to a brother?
10:05 < gleki> then {bruna}.
10:05 < zipcpi> I thought that was what you didn't want to include in the dictionary
10:05 < gleki> as for "elder brother" idk. 
10:05 < gocti> zipcpi: xu do ja'a na me la .kr. si si si cmima lai .krtis.
10:05 < gocti> en: ta'oi
10:05 < mensi> ta'oi = [TAhOI] explicit indicator that the speaker is completing/continuing a previously uttered bridi in the discourse
10:05 < mensi> |>>> The following text, until the next usage of .i, will be interpreted as being attached to a previous bridi, most
10:05 < mensi> likely, the most recently uttered one in the discourse/conversation that was not closed with .i. |>>>
10:05 < mensi> krtisfranks
10:06 < gleki>  [TAhOI] !
10:06 < zipcpi> No, I am not Curtis :p
10:06 < gocti> je'e je'e
10:07 < zipcpi> That's great though. I'll probably use it :p
10:07 < zipcpi> Dunno how the selma'o should work though
10:08 < zipcpi> But it's better than just leaving it ambiguous
10:08 < gleki> hyperPEG should work with actual sentence fragments, not just add {zo'e co'e} to them
10:08 < gleki> so I guess a new selmaho can be justified here
10:11 < zipcpi> Yeah I'm of the opinion that the "poor taxonomy" gismu like jukni and tirxu can be "retired" so to speak. Create new words, then just flat out steal the gloss words from them
10:12 < zipcpi> They can remain in the dictionary but they'll be orphaned, with no English gloss words
10:12 < zipcpi> Cause as it is there is too much malglixlu
10:16 < zipcpi> And getting rid of a malglixlu would just leave you with a word that is too general in scope to be useful
10:16 < zipcpi> *the malglixlu
10:16 < zipcpi> So yeah, just retire them
10:24 < gleki> zipcpi: e'u add {cribe} to panda entries.
10:24 < zipcpi> I thought I did for ci'onmau
10:24 < zipcpi> But don't see why I need it for ci'onme'a
10:25 < zipcpi> lo ci'onme'a na cribe
10:26 < zipcpi> ta'oi je na simsa lo cribe
10:28 < zipcpi> Yeah ci'onmau does link to cribe
10:35 < gleki> je'e
10:42 < zipcpi> ei mi cliva co'o
10:47 < selpahi> vensa invented {ta'oi} years ago, just with different spelling
10:50 < gleki> selpahi: do za'o na jmina zo ci'ai JVS
10:50 < selpahi> ki'u lo nu la .kyrtis. cu pilno zo ci'ai
10:50 < gleki> ko pilno lo drata tarmi valsi
10:51 < selpahi> no'e cinri mi
10:51 < selpahi> .i zo ci'ai mapti ki'u tu'a zo cmima
10:51 < selpahi> .i zo me'ai mapti .i ku'i la vensa pu'i pilno
10:52 < gleki> cizra i ko jmina zo ci'ai gi'e cpedu fi ky fe lo ka finti lo drata tarmi valsi
10:52 < gleki> en:ci'ai
10:52 < mensi> ci'ai = [UI] discursive: marks an utterance as using something that is experimental/not official, especially
10:52 < mensi> experimental grammar
10:52 < gleki> en:ci'au
10:52 < mensi> ci'au'u'au'i = [UI1] attitudinal: pride about having just invented a new attitudinal - shame about having just invented
10:52 < mensi> a new attitudinal
10:52 < gleki> zo ci'au ka'e kurtyvla
10:53 < selpahi> ki'u ma na cusku lu sei nalfadni gerna li'u ja lo simsa
10:53 < selpahi> .i .oi cmavo cmavo cmavo
10:53 < gleki> mi na pajni be tu'a ti prenu
10:54 < selpahi> .i'a pei zo mei'e
10:54 < selpahi> .i xu vajni .i ma ba pilno
10:57 < gleki> la samyuan
10:59 < selpahi> ba'a ba lo nu mi jmina kei la .uuzit. cu piksku lo cizra za'u re'u
11:04 < selpahi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mei%27e
11:04 < selpahi> .i sei notci lo nu mi jmina na nu mi stidi su'o da
11:07 < niftg> .u'i mi za'ure'u viska zo ci'au'u'au'i fi'o pamoi krefu lo mlidarno purci ju'icu'i
11:07 < gleki> plixau valsi
11:09 < gleki> su'omei'e => ja
11:09 < gleki> romei'e => je
11:09 < gleki> ?mei'e => jonai
11:10 < selpahi> na'i
11:10 < selpahi> .i ku'i pa ja ro mei'e = jo
11:10 < selpahi> sa
11:11 < selpahi> .i lo nabmi zo'u lo ci'i mei ka'e se lidne zo mei'e .i pluja
11:12 < gleki> {pamei'e ko'a ko'e = ko'a jonai ko'e} ?
11:12 < selpahi> pa mei'e = jonai
11:12 < selpahi> va'o lo nu re mei
11:12 < selpahi> ie
11:12 < selpahi> no ja ro mei'e = jo nai
11:12 < selpahi> si
11:12 < selpahi> .i no ja ro mei'e = jo
11:13 < selpahi> .i ku'i .e'u pilno zo me
11:13 < gleki> zo'oru'e "*no ja ro mei'e => su'omei'e no boi ro boi mei'e"
11:13 < selpahi> su'o me ko'a jo'u ko'e == ko'a ja ko'e
11:14 < selpahi> li'o li'o
11:14 < gleki> ua
11:14 < gleki> ro me ko'a jo'u ko'e == ko'a je ko'e ?
11:15 < selpahi> ie
11:15 < gleki> pa me ko'a jo'u ko'e == ko'a jonai ko'e ?
11:15 < selpahi> drani
11:15 < gleki> ? me ko'a jo'u ko'e == ko'a jo ko'e
11:16 < selpahi> no ja ro
11:16 < gleki> ro me lo cinri jo'u cinri doi sy i e'u do finti lo cnino ke uitki papri za lo djedi be li su'o pa
11:16 < gleki> sa
11:16 < gleki> sa
11:17 < gleki> ro me lo cinri jo'u lo cinri doi sy i e'u do finti lo cnino ke uitki papri za lo djedi be li su'o pa
11:17 < gleki> to ca ti CGM cu zbasu lo fukpi be lo uitki datni i e'u na stika le uitki toi
11:17 < selpahi> je'e
11:18 < gleki> pa me ko'a ce ko'e - 7 slaka. ko'a jonai ko'e - 6 slaka
11:18 < gleki> i na mabla
11:19 < gleki> i u'i di'e
11:19 < gleki> ? me ko'a jo'u ko'e == ko'a ju ko'e
11:22 < selpahi> ko'a ju ko'e = ko'a
11:38 < gleki> sei la tersmus cu cusku ba'e se'u
11:47 < gocti> selpahi: ki'e jmina
11:47 < gocti> .i ma famyma'o .i zo me'u xu
11:47 < selpahi> ko finti su'o mapti .i da'i zo mei'o
11:48 < selpahi> .i tu'a lo famyma'o cu pa mei lo krinu be lo nu mi na'e .entuzi lo nu finti lo cnino selma'o
11:49 < gocti> finti ma'oi soi noi lo cmavo be ke'a cu se famyma'o lo pu xa'o zasti
11:49 < gocti> .i xu ma'i do mabla fa lo nu go'i
11:50 < selpahi> na go'i .i ku'i zo soi pu tu'a lo cnino cu se  famyma'o zo se'u .i mi na finti lo cnino :P
11:52 < selpahi> .i zo sei cizra mi .i mo zo ke'a
11:52 < gocti> alta: mi mo do soi vo'a
11:52 < mensi> ([FA mi] [CU {mo SF} {<FE do> <soi (¹[FA vo'a] [CU {COhE SF} VAU]¹) SEhU>} VAU])
11:54 < gocti> da'i mi se mansa lo nu pilno zo ke'a tu'a zo sei .i ku'i na vajni mi .i je xa'o se jdice
11:55 < selpahi> ma ma se jdice .i xu na ku lo me zo sei moi bi'ai  pinka lo sruri selsku
11:57 < gocti> lo du'u zo soi co'e kei lo pilno .i zo sei zo'u da'i va'o po'o lo nu zo ke'a nenri cu bi'ai go'a
11:57 < gocti> durka42: ta'o xu do ganse tu'a lo velcki be la .cutis.
11:58 < durka42> .y
11:58 < durka42> na go'i
11:59 < gocti> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/nu_curmi_lo_nu_lo_sumti_cu_jbini_zo_cu_joi_lo_selbri
12:00 < gocti> ju'o cu'i banzuka co klina
12:00 < durka42> ki'e
12:00 < durka42> mu'i ma la uitki na tu'itsku sei mi kucli
12:01 < gocti> ta'e ku mi jai fanta lo nu tu'itsku
12:01 < gocti> .i .ei pei co'u ku
12:01 < selpahi> si'au lo uitki co'u friti
12:01 < selpahi> .i mi pu za lo jeftu pa re'u sanji
12:01 < gocti> ba gi co'u gi co'a
12:01 < gocti> vau si'au
12:02 < gocti> su .i ba gi co'u KU gi co'a
12:03 < gocti> .i .ei gau la su'o da da pe lo sumtcita terjoma cu fasnu
12:03 < gleki> lmw should post to twitter again. and it will updated hopefully at 9 am vrici time tomorrow
12:03  * gleki de'a
12:04 < gocti> lu {ga ba bo} li'u fegli (to ba'e *ca* fegli mi .i ka'e cenba toi) .i lu {ga ba ku} li'u jai se sarcu lo nu vimcu lo laldo ciste
12:12 < gocti> sei sedjbujanli ki'u ma pilno zo lu
12:14 < durka42> lo nu dunda lo cnino tersmu lo pu nunsrera cu milxe co cizra mi
12:16 < gocti> ga'a mi na ru'e sai dunli la .kujois.
12:17 < gocti> .i ja'a na dunli vau ku'i .i ka'e ku su'o pu srera se pilno ba se smuni lo drata be lo jai se djica
12:17 < gocti> .i kanpe lo nu lo ca'a go'i cu so'u mei
12:18 < gocti> (to lo naldra smuni zo'u panra lo me lu {ba mo gi'e mo} jo'u lu {ba ku mo gi'e mo} moi toi)
12:22 < selpahi> do mo lu su pe ko'a li'u fa'u lu su poi broda li'u
12:22 < gocti> .aidji lo ka curmi va'o la .cipr.
12:23 < selpahi> lu su poi broda li'u ji lu su poi broda ku'o brode li'u sumti
12:23 < Ilmen> da'i dunli lu su voi broda li'u
12:23 < selpahi> .i va'o tu'a zo pe cu plixau fa lo pa moi
12:23 < gocti> .oi
12:23 < Ilmen> je'e
12:23 < gocti> .i na ganse .i .aidji tu'a lo re moi
12:24 < selpahi> .i lu .ei gau la su da su pe lo terjoma cu fasnu
12:24 < durka42> cipra: lo nu da cu de cu di broda cu do brode
12:24 < gocti> (to ko denpa toi)
12:24 < durka42> mi ca za'o na nelci .u'u
12:24 < mensi> mi xebni
12:25 < durka42> ue
12:25 < durka42> cipr: lo nu da cu de cu di broda cu do brode
12:25 < cipr> ([FA {lo <nu (¹[FA da] [cu {<(²[FE de] cu²) (²[FI di] CU²)> broda VAU}]¹) KEI> KU}] [cu {<(¹FE do¹) CU> brode VAU}])
12:25 < durka42> cipr: lo nu da cu de cu di broda cu do brode jecu brodi
12:25 < cipr> ([FA {lo <nu (¹[FA da] [cu {<(²[FE de] cu²) (²[FI di] CU²)> broda VAU}]¹) KEI> KU}] [{cu <(¹[FE do] CU¹) brode VAU>} je {cu <brodi VAU>} VAU])
12:25 < durka42> zo do cu co'e zo brodi ji'a xu
12:26 < gocti> na go'i
12:26 < durka42> cfi'i'i'ipu
12:26 < selpahi> exp: lo cu broda gi'e brode
12:26 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "b" found.
12:26 < selpahi> exp: lo ge broda gi brode
12:26 < mensi> ([lo {ge <CU (¹broda VAU¹)> gi <CU (¹brode VAU¹)> VAU} KU] VAU)
12:27 < selpahi> si'au lo pa moi lo po'o me mi moi pu pagbu
12:27 < durka42> mi jinvi lo du lo se memkai be zo cu je lo ralju selbri cu mitysi'u
12:27 < durka42> lo nu pilno zo cu lo sumti famyma'o cu cizra
12:28 < durka42> (to naku lo cizra roroi xlali toi)
12:28 < gocti> je'e
12:30 < gocti> sumti_5 = [...] CU_clause bridi_tail_1
12:30 < gocti> za'a .i'e'i'e
12:30 < durka42> xu lo do se stidi cu galfi lo smuni be su'o pu gendra
12:30 < gocti> .i no roi pu lanli la selpatufa
12:31 < gocti> la .cutis. zo'u ia na go'oi galfi
12:35 < selpahi> doi no'u la gocti ku mafka'e do snada da'i tu'a lo mekso roi zei gerna pe nai zo vei
12:36 < gocti> na mulno
12:36 < gocti> cipr: mo'e ti roi
12:36 < cipr> ([{<(¹mo'e ti TE'U¹) BOI> roi} KU] VAU)
12:36 < gocti> cipr: pa ja re roi
12:36 < cipr> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "r" found.
12:36 < selpahi> xu do ji'a se nabmi lo cimni refkurzi
12:36 < selpahi> co zunle
12:36 < selpahi> sa'e
12:37 < gocti> go'i .i bilga lo ka relmeigau la'oi mex_2
12:37 < gocti> .i lo se curmi pe zo roi zo'u na ka'e se pagbu lo .gek.
12:39 < selpahi> ti'e lo jbogu'e daplu cu di'a kunti
12:40 < gocti> pu ze'i zvati .i nonsekacni rinka
12:40 < selpahi> ie
12:40 < selpahi> .i mi ji'a ze'i
12:40 < selpahi> .i ku'i mi'a pu ci mei
12:40 < selpahi> .i ba'a pei plixau fa lo daplu lo vokta'a .ecre
12:41 < gocti> cumki fa lo nu xoi lerci cu cilre fi lo farna po'o nai cmavo
12:41 < selpahi> go'i
12:42 < gocti> .ei bajra .i xrukla trene ro moi
12:42 < selpahi> di'ai
12:44 < Ilmen> .u'i
12:44 < selpahi> be'a, du'a, ne'u, vu'a: They could all get new CVCC[VC]V brivla so the cardinal direction brivla don't all start with {s} and match their FAhA
12:45 < selpahi> Though it's cool that e.g. {snanu} contains nan, from Mandarin 南
12:45 < selpahi> helps Lojbanists learn Mandarin, and vice versa
12:45 < Ilmen> nanmu'u, bermu'u
12:46 < selpahi> be'a -> be___a
12:48 < durka42> zo farna da'i pagbu
12:59 < durka42> ua zo .anraf. fatne zo farna
12:59 < durka42> benrafa dunrafa nenrafu vunrafa
12:59 < durka42> zo'o ru'e
13:51 < gocti> za'a lo tcadu lo kunti daplu cu zmadu lo ka jai va'o frili fai lo ka judy'omni sa.iminodacusku
15:35 < durka42> zo mei'e noi se finti la selpa'i .uesai cu mo
15:35 < selpahi> finti de'i ny 2013
15:36 < selpahi> gi'e te cmene fi zo ci'ai noi ku'i ca ti se smuni lo me la .kyrtis. moi
15:36 < selpahi> .i la gleki pu cpedu fi mi fe lo ka jmina lo mi smuni
15:36 < selpahi> .i mi pu no'e djica
15:37 < durka42> ua
15:38 < durka42> lu mei'e da joi de li'u ji lu mei'e da de li'u co'e
15:38 < selpahi> je nai
15:38 < selpahi> xu do pu tcidu lo ci mupli
15:38 < durka42> oi na sanji lo mupli
15:38 < durka42> la jbovlaste puzi co'a masno mutce
15:39 < durka42> lo mupli cu xusra tu'a lu na je li'u .u'i
15:39 < selpahi> ie .i mi naldra spuda
15:39 < durka42> je'e
15:39 < selpahi> .i va'i lo re moi cu drani
15:40 < durka42> la zipcpi cu spedu lo famyma'o
15:40 < durka42> pe'i na sarcu
15:41 < selpahi> ja'a sarcu
15:42 < durka42> ma te frica zo me ta'onai
15:42 < durka42> me da joi de
15:42 < durka42> mei'e da de
15:43 < selpahi> na ku tu'a su'o jonma'o cu sarcu
15:43 < selpahi> .i te frica
15:44 < durka42> .oi .i xu ba'e se smuni lo drata
15:45 < selpahi> soi no sanji be mi ki natfe na go'i
16:37 < cmene> Klingon and Esperanto on Duolingo but no lojban? :(
16:38 < durka42> not for lack of trying
16:38 < durka42> (this gets brought up every 2.5 minutes since duolingo added those two)
16:40 < cmene> I haven't been on this channel in about two years -- sorry to add to the frustration
16:42 < durka42> no worries :)
16:42 < durka42> 2.5 minutes was an exaggeration
16:44 < cmene> .ie
16:47 < durka42> do mo?
16:53 < cmene> mi na jimpe
16:53 < durka42> what's up?
16:54 < niftg> ca zvati lo ca te cerni
16:56 < niftg> smuvrici ke preti jufra .i va'o so'ida rinsa jufra
16:58 < cmene> mi pu'u tavla la lojban i. .uinai
17:02 < durka42> you're a lojban speaking process? xD
17:10 < niftg> fi'o pruce zo'e cu tavla sei mi na se cizra
17:11 < niftg> .u'u .i cmavo ma'oi NU .enai ma'oi BAI
17:16 < niftg> .ia catra lo sfani .i ku'i de'a djuno lo du'u makau lo ri mroxadni cu se zvati
17:17 < durka42> oi dai
17:18 < niftg> .ua vi zvati .i pu za'o jmive
17:19 < niftg> livgau lo morsi ba'o .uo
17:20 < niftg> morsi .ia .ija ju'o bazi morsi
17:54 < kres> .i coi ro do
17:54 < durka42> coi
17:57 < kres> .i do mo?
17:57 < bigcentaur> .i coi la .kres.
17:59 < kres> How would a lojban hiku work?
17:59 < bigcentaur> a haiku/
17:59 < bigcentaur> ?
18:00 < kres> I think the english one, 5 7 5, is not the same.
18:01 < bigcentaur> i don't think it's 5-7-5 even in english
18:01 < bigcentaur> are you planning on writing some haikus in lobjan? :)
18:01 < kres> yes
18:02 < bigcentaur> oh wait, i was wrong about 5-7-5
18:02 < bigcentaur> i mean, why wouldn't it follow the same syllable pattern?
18:04 < kres> they use 'on'
18:04 < kres> witch appear to be slightly different
18:05 < bigcentaur> okay, do you know how it's been adapted for english or other languages?
18:06 < kres> hmmm
18:06 < kres> English just counts 5 7 5 syllables
18:06 < kres> witch seems really restrictive in lojban
18:07 < kres> but
18:07 < kres> I guess that's the point.
18:08 < kres> try to fit as much imagery as you can into a single breath.
18:08 < bigcentaur> yeah, i think the restriction is the point
18:09 < kres> Do we have any poets?
18:10 < PrincessBecca> i'm a poet
18:11 < PrincessBecca> not really a lojban one though
18:11 < PrincessBecca> i've written a couple lojban haiku
18:11 < kres> .ui sai how do you think a lojban hiku would work?
18:12 < kres> *cai
18:12 < PrincessBecca> lo xendo solri
18:12 < PrincessBecca> cu selfu lo ro jmive
18:12 < PrincessBecca> .i ei mi go'i
18:13 < PrincessBecca> *shrug* i dunno if that's actually right even. i wrote it last year.
18:13 < PrincessBecca> i don't even have much business writing lojban poems with my current level.
18:14 < PrincessBecca> ui nai lo crisa
18:14 < PrincessBecca> noi pluka ku se dicra
18:14 < PrincessBecca> lo palci lenku
18:14 < PrincessBecca> *shrug*.
18:15 < durka42> .i'e sai
18:16 < PrincessBecca> o'a
18:16 < kres> mi'u
18:17 < durka42> pe'i gendra
18:17 < durka42> camxes: -f lo xendo solri cu selfu lo ro jmive .i ei mi go'i ni'o ui nai lo crisa noi pluka ku se dicra lo palci lenku
18:17 < camxes> ([{<(¹lo [xendo solri]¹) cu> <selfu (¹lo [ro jmive]¹)>} {i ei} {mi go'i}] [ni'o {ui nai}] [lo {crisa <noi pluka>} ku] [se dicra] [lo {palci lenku}])
18:17 < durka42> ja'a gendra ui
18:17 < PrincessBecca> uisai
18:20 < PrincessBecca> ei mi sipne .i a'o ze'u
18:21 < PrincessBecca> .i co'o
18:51 < niftg> za'a la vreji na zvati .i go'i ze'u la'a ma
18:53 < durka42> ue je'u
18:53 < durka42> ka'e cusku lo cizra
18:56 < niftg> mi na se slabu tu'a lo du'u lo drata la vreji cu basti poi la'a na fatci
18:57 < durka42> ia no drata cu vreji zmiku .i ku'i ka'e srera .i so'i da smaji .irci
18:58 < niftg> ta'o zo noi cu mapti zmadu va'o tu'a de'u ne mi
18:58 < durka42> ie
18:59 < niftg> su'o lo smaji irci cu kakne co mipri lo vo'a cmene lo akti irci vau xu
19:02 < durka42> uanai
19:03 < niftg> je'e
19:04 < niftg> coi pinji
19:07 < niftg> mi pu retkucli lo du'u xukau la vreji cu zvati la jbosnu ji'a .ijebabo facki lo du'u mulno na'e zvati
19:07 < durka42> .u'i
19:12 < niftg> mi gleki lo nu mi na zungi lo nu mi cusku zo pinji
19:14 < tsani> coi
19:14 < niftg> coi la tsani
19:16 < durka42> coi la tsani
19:17 < bigcentaur> .i coi
19:17 < niftg> zoi url http://www.lojban.org/irclogs/jbosnu/ url .i lo vreji pe la jbosnu zo'u cnici .i'e
19:19 < durka42> ie la vreji ta'e vreji la jbosnu
19:21 < niftg> zoi url http://www.lojban.org/irclogs/jbosnu/2015_05/ url .i za'a bi'i li 05.05
19:25 < niftg> .ua si'a zoi url http://www.lojban.org/irclogs/lojban/2015_05/ url .i .a'u lo se detri be li 25 ku ji'a te vreji da .i ku'i so'ucaimei
21:14 < Adam9812> coi ro do
21:16 < niftg> coi adam
21:24 < Adam9812> Sorry that this isn't in Lojban, but do you know what Dictionary I should use? There is so many, and I'm still new to this.
21:38 < niftg> I often use the "vlasisku". .i ku'i .ue apparently that is not in the list of the main page.
21:39 < keidji_> I very much prefer http://sutsis.nomei.la
21:40 < Adam9812> .i .ui mi ckire re do (is this right?)
21:40 < keidji_> yes? But I'm a bad lojbanist
21:41 < Adam9812> What is was trying to say is "I happily thank you both"
21:42 < niftg> not wrong, I think
21:49 < keidji_> Yeah, I got that. I think that is correct
21:50 < Adam9812> Okay. That is good, since I'm still not good with numbers
21:53 < keidji_> yeah, I'm not either. Especially the non-number qualifiers
21:54 < Adam9812> Me too. I think I can get the basic numbers down (1-9), but the more than, less than, etc are much harder
21:55 < Adam9812> coi
21:56 < zipcpi> coi
21:57 < ldlework> coi zy
21:57 < zipcpi> Why doesn't this parse:
21:57 < zipcpi> lo risna cu panra lo damri lo ritli i babo cfari fa lo cnino ka lifri
21:57 < zipcpi> It doesn't like babo
21:58 < zipcpi> Oh oops that's my edited version
21:58 < zipcpi> .i gajanai lo risna cu
21:58 < zipcpi> panra lo damri lo ritli gi babo cfari fa lo cnino ka lifri
21:58 < zipcpi> Yeah doesn't like "gi babo". I thought it should work just like "ibabo"
21:59 < Adam9812> Maybe your missing the X1 place (I'm not really sure the problem either)
22:00 < zipcpi> Nope, adding "ko'a" doesn't fix it
22:01 < Adam9812> I'm not an expert lojbanist, but maybe try to look up the words and see. Their grammar
22:01 < Adam9812> coi adlai
22:03 < zipcpi> .i xu do tirna lo se sanga /be lo vrude ke fengu /.i cu zgike tu'a da /poi aicai na pinfu krefu /.i gajanai lo risna cu /panra lo damri lo ritli /gi baku cfari fa lo cnino ka lifri
23:09 < gleki> xu do finti
23:11 < zipcpi> mi puzi fanva
23:12 < zipcpi> https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/permalink/10152933592076705/
23:13 < gleki> ca ti mi djuno lo du'u do se cmene makau
23:14 < zipcpi> xa'i mi xekri gerku
23:15 < zipcpi> ta'oi xoi skari panra lo zipcpi be la .makaronis.
23:23 < gleki> so let's try to play with stemming in sutysisku
23:49 < zipcpi> https://media.8ch.net/jbo/src/1432785150944.jpg u'ise'i
23:52 < zipcpi> u'ivla xoi zu'e pilno fi lo junri .i ne'i lo bangu pe ba'e mi
23:54 < zipcpi> lo u'ivla poi zu'e se pilno fi lo junri vau ne'i lo bangu pe ba'e mi i'au uecai
--- Day changed Thu May 28 2015
00:02 < zipcpi> Yeah still don't know why gibabo doesn't work. Seems like a bug to me
00:02 < zipcpi> Don't think it will break monoparsing
00:08 < gleki> gi'ebabo
00:08 < zipcpi> Doesn't work in the context
00:08 < zipcpi> It's part of a ganai (gajanai) ... gi clause
00:09 < niftg> ju'ocu'i ki'u lo nu me'oi "forethought" co'e kei noda pu te sidbo lo nu setca lo za'umoi bu'u lo midju
00:10 < niftg> sei smadi
00:14 < niftg> .i va'i .eidai ro lo jonma'o lamji cmavo ba'o se cusku pu lo nu cusku zo gi
00:21 < gleki> heh, the stemmer  doesnt like "/" as word separators
00:26 < keidji_> co'o
00:30 < zipcpi> u'i
00:53 < ldlework> ma xajmi
00:55 < gleki> well, the first attempt to use stemming failed.
00:55 < gleki> e.g. too many definitions contain the word "contain" thus {vasru} wont show up the first
01:08 < zipcpi> do'oi ldlework : https://media.8ch.net/jbo/src/1432785150944.jpg
01:19 < ldlework> I dion't get it
01:19 < ldlework> don't*
01:20 < zipcpi> I made those words
01:20 < zipcpi> Or at least, entered them into JVS :p
01:20 < zipcpi> Well briii was completely my own invention. ci'onme'a was added with some discussion
01:21 < zipcpi> And well, as words go they're kind of weird :p
01:21 < ldlework> je'e
01:22 < ldlework> zipcpi: did you see the bripre
01:22 < zipcpi> Tried to. Couldn't parse the Lojban yet
01:24 < ldlework> zipcpi: huh?
01:24 < ldlework> parse what lojban?
01:24 < zipcpi> I'm not that good at spoken Lojban and the sentences they use are pretty complex. Which kinda defeats the purpose of the whole bripre showing the predicate positions thing if you ask me
01:24 < ldlework> zipcpi: oh not that cartoon thing
01:24 < zipcpi> Ah...
01:25 < zipcpi> What are you referring to then?
01:25 < gleki> k:cirlabriii
01:25 < mensi> (CU [Z:cirlabriii VAU])
01:25 < ldlework> la bripre poi zvati la jbogu'e'
01:25 < zipcpi> Oh
01:26 < zipcpi> Because what is the point of flashing x2 when it contains a long nested NU/POI abstraction?
01:28 < ldlework> zipcpi: its down by the shore, if you make a visit
01:30 < zipcpi> Which shore
01:30 < ldlework> opposite end of the island from the mountain
01:30 < zipcpi> Why are the mountains so trippy
01:31 < ldlework> trippy?
01:31 < zipcpi> skari lo mutce vrici
01:31 < ldlework> screenshot?
01:32 < zipcpi> I teleported x.x
01:32 < ldlework> is it better now?
01:32 < zipcpi> I'm not in the high mountains anymore
01:33 < zipcpi> Still don't see anything
01:34 < ldlework> its down by the water
01:34 < zipcpi> I see a big tiled thing on the water
01:34 < ldlework> right, in the other 'bay'
01:34 < zipcpi> See it now ^^
01:38 < ldlework> zipcpi: the big tiled thing is a game made by my girlfriend
01:38 < ldlework> go down to it and touch the ball in the middle
01:38 < gleki> Anyway I enabled stemming for English sutysisku. But it's not pretty
01:38 < ldlework> it will hide somewhere on the board
01:38 < ldlework> try to find it
01:39 < Steffmeistro> ui coi ro
01:40 < ldlework> coi
01:50 < ldlework> en: zei'a
01:50 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
01:53 < gleki> mensi: ko cnino
01:53 < mensi> sei ca ca'o jai gau cnino be fai lo pe mi sorcu
01:53 < mensi> i ba'o jai gau cnino
01:54 < gleki> en: zei'a
01:54 < mensi> zei'a = [TAhE] tense interval modifier: increasingly...; incrementative |>>> See zenba. Opposite of dei'a |>>>
01:54 < mensi> spheniscine
02:02 < zipcpi> Yeah I like those. Better than either attaching ze'a to random lujvo or going zenba lo ni all the time
02:03 < gleki> i dont like that they are too similar in sounding. signal/noise ratio is low
02:04 < gleki> en: zilzena
02:04 < mensi> zilzena = x1 is a property of a number/amount increasing by amount x2 |>>> x1 is a unary property whose open sumti slot
02:04 < mensi> (ce'u) is filled with a number/amount increasing over time. |>>> Ilmen
02:04 < zipcpi> Yeah... do you have any suggestions? dei'a -> de'ai?
02:04 < zipcpi> Is that taken?
02:04 < gleki> why even d- ?
02:04 < zipcpi> kurtynomvla
02:04 < zipcpi> Well it's either that or j-
02:04 < gleki> uanai
02:04 < gleki> where is d- from?
02:04 < zipcpi> jdika
02:05 < gleki> i disabled stemming. it was ugly. i will try with glosswords instead
02:05 < zipcpi> je'ai is also taken
02:06 < zipcpi> And if you dislike dei'a I think jei'a is even worse
02:06 < gleki> li'a
02:06 < gleki> initially i wanted {ze'ai}
02:06 < gleki> rafsi:zenba
02:06 < mensi> zo'oi zen .e zo'oi ze'a .e zo'oi zenb rafsi zo zenba
02:07 < zipcpi> But it's taken too
02:07 < gleki> en:ze'ai
02:07 < mensi> ze'ai = [ZEhA] time tense interval: an unspecified amount of time
02:07 < gleki> right, vensas
02:07 < gleki> finti: vensa
02:07 < mensi> 112 da se tolcri: ba'ei, batkakpa, batkyfoi, bixygau, blefa'u, bracai, clabrato'a, clakeryractu, clavaxsku, cmatce,
02:07 < mensi> cmatu'a, ctikabri, da'erjicla, datkycmo, dau'i, demsilka, di'ai, dracyka'i, fakli'u, filseltro, firfra, fu'au, galjdika,
02:07 < mensi> gancai, ga'orga'a, gapkla, gasmlu, gusli'i, gusysutmu'u, jancelxa'i, ...
02:07 < gleki> en: ze'ai
02:07 < mensi> ze'ai = [ZEhA] time tense interval: an unspecified amount of time |>>> Used to express a duration without specifying any
02:07 < mensi> subjective notion about its length. May typically be used in a question when the subjective notion is not known. See
02:07 < mensi> also ze'a, ze'i, ze'u, ze'e, za'ai |>>> vensa
02:08 < gleki> en: za'ai
02:08 < mensi> za'ai = [ZI] time tense distance: an unspecified distance in time |>>> Used to express a time distance without
02:08 < mensi> specifying any subjective notion about its size. May typically be used in a question when the subjective notion is not
02:08 < mensi> known. See also za, zi, zu, ze'ai |>>> vensa
02:08 < gleki> it's better to have {ZA/ZEhA} modifiers specifying the size
02:08 < gleki> ZA/ZEhA/VEhA/VI
02:09 < zipcpi> zei'a and dei'a are not necessary about size
02:09 < zipcpi> *necessarily
02:09 < zipcpi> zei'a glare = It's getting hotter
02:09 < gleki> bo, i mean vensa wanted to separate ze'a as "unspecified" and ze'a as "middle size"
02:09 < gleki> *no
02:09 < zipcpi> Ah
02:10 < zipcpi> Ah the whole ze'a as "over time"
02:10 < gleki> instead three modifiers can be applied to VI/ZA/VEhA/ZEhA
02:10 < gleki> too late for that actually
02:12 < gleki> since {ve'i} would become three syllables at best
02:13 < gleki> strange, but ZA is already such a modifier
02:13 < gleki> {puzu} = long ago. Then {bu'uzu} = far away
02:16 < gleki> and {ve'azi} = {ve'i}
03:04 < zipcpi> .i aipei cmima loi damba / jecu tsali ka'ai mi / .i a'opei ti'a pe'a / lo se rinju cu banli / .i e'eisai semu'ibo / gau ko ko zifre vi
03:14 < zipcpi> .i xu do tirna lo nu sanga / fa loi prenu poi fengu / .i zgike tu'a da poi aicai na / randa za'ure'u / .i ganai lo do risna cu / panra lo damri lo ritli / gi baku cfari fa lo cnino nu lifri
03:22  * nuzba @freneziozino: cerni coi lai .lojbanistan. i a'o uicai dai #lojban [http://bit.ly/1LLCBs8]
03:43 < zipcpi> Er yeah I mixed the old connectives with the new for meter reasons. Sue me :p
03:44 < zipcpi> Though if I really wanted I could replace jecu with gi'e
03:47 < demize> "They are more what you call guidelines than actual rules"
03:48 < zipcpi> What guidelines? :p
04:10 < zipcpi> doi la gleki zo ji'ai cu na se snigau
04:14 < zipcpi> mi mu'o snigau zo ji'ai
04:17 < gleki> *mo'u
04:17 < gleki> i na djuno
04:17 < zipcpi> u'u
04:17 < gleki> i mu'a zo de'a ce zo di'a
04:17 < gleki> e/i
04:17 < zipcpi> ie
04:17 < gleki> i ei carmi pensi
04:18 < zipcpi> I don't know... I do expect {zei'a} to be used more often than {dei'a}/{ji'ai}
04:18 < zipcpi> So one the one hand making them rhyme makes them easier to remember, but harder to hear
04:19 < zipcpi> It's kinda like za'o/xa'o, but I suppose /z/ and /x/ are harder to mistake for each other
04:19 < gleki> i'd rather use {ze'ai}
04:20 < zipcpi> Meh... like I said, I expect increasing to be used more often than decreasing, so I don't know if I want to reassign it now. Especially when ze'ai is already assigned
04:21 < gleki> assigned to something that is not thought out fine.
04:21 < zipcpi> True perhaps
04:21 < gleki> en: ve'ai
04:21 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
04:21 < gleki> nothing for "unspecified ve'a"
04:21 < zipcpi> Mm
04:22 < zipcpi> It does have two votes right now though
04:22 < gleki> and there is cmavo non proliferation act
04:22 < zipcpi> lol
04:22 < gleki> idk, what are the pbjection for using {za/zi/zu} for any size/distance?
04:23 < zipcpi> Not from me but I don't know if it'll cause any problems
04:23 < zipcpi> Well, maybe that a bare /zi/ is tied too much to "close in time" perhaps
04:25 < zipcpi> Well it has been several years
04:25 < zipcpi> So I guess if it never caught on it's not gonna catch on now
04:27 < gleki> {za lo mentu} - in a minute. {za lo mitre} - ???
04:27 < zipcpi> lol
04:28 < gleki> just move {za} from {ca} country to {fau} conutry
04:30 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ze'ai
04:30 < zipcpi> Please upvote me then
04:30 < zipcpi> Can't upvote and downvote at the same time though. Shame
04:32 < zipcpi> We need a team of sockpuppets just for times like this :p
04:32 < zipcpi> Sockpuppets can't dethrone anything by officialdata though
04:41 < zipcpi> Who has database rights to JVS?
05:06 < gleki> mukti/robin but mediated thru BPFK decisions
05:07  * zipcpi nods
05:07 < gleki> and JVS has too many problems to solve
05:07 < zipcpi> ie
05:07 < gleki> i need to study the db structure to see how to implement https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131
05:08 < gleki> until that is fixed i cant even import La Bangu dictionary to JVS
05:09 < zipcpi> Ah yes you do have a lot of words that just aren't there yet huh?
05:09 < zipcpi> Including the new {jukni}
05:11 < gleki> JVS is poorly formalized. In La Bangu e.g. variable types are in separate fields. Examples have english translations. And it lacks kurtyvla with lengthy descriptions
05:11 < gleki> jb:ankabuta
05:11 < mensi> ankabuta = ankabuta — x1(entity)  is a spider of species  x2(taxon)
05:11 < mensi> :lo ankabuta — spider.
05:11 < mensi> :xu do terpa tu'a lo ankabuta — Are you afraid of spiders?
05:11 < mensi> :Related words: insekto, cinki, danlu
05:11 < zipcpi> lol
05:11 < gleki> en:jukni
05:11 < mensi> jukni = x1 is a spider/arachnid/crustacean/crab/lobster/non-insect arthropod of species/breed x2.
05:12 < gleki> for crustacean just a Latin borrowing would do
05:12 < zipcpi> Yeah someone should offer to rewrite the most useful kurtyvla... dunno what he'd say though
05:12 < gleki> jb:cinki
05:12 < mensi> cinki = cinki — x1(entity)  is an arthropod of species  x2(taxon)
05:12 < mensi> :lo cinki — arthropod.
05:12 < mensi> :lo insekto cu cinki — Insects are arthropods.
05:12 < mensi> :Related words: insekto, civla, danlu, blato, ankabuta, manti, sfani, toldi, bifce
05:12 < gleki> en:cinki
05:12 < mensi> cinki = x1 is an insect/arthropod of species x2; [bug/beetle].
05:13 < zipcpi> cinki is still useful; we often refer to a "bug" not caring whether it's really an insect or a spider
05:13 < gleki> I assumed that {cinki} is just arthropod whether or not an insect
05:13 < gleki> spiders are bugs but not cinki
05:13 < zipcpi> jukni however, is just poor taxonomy. I don't know if any language has a word that means the thing jukni does
05:14 < gleki> en: jukni
05:14 < mensi> jukni = x1 is a spider/arachnid/crustacean/crab/lobster/non-insect arthropod of species/breed x2. |>>> See also cinki,
05:14 < mensi> danlu. |>>> officialdata
05:14 < zipcpi> Spiders are arthropods
05:14 < gleki> oh, right, spiders are cinki in gleki's sense
05:14 < gleki> it becomes confusing you see
05:14 < PrincessBecca> jbobausmi = x1 is similar to Lojban in property/aspect x2?
05:15 < PrincessBecca> or is it not that simple
05:15 < gleki> en:jbobausmi
05:15 < mensi> [< lojbo bangu simsa ≈ Lojbanic language similar] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se
05:15 < mensi> tolcri
05:15 < mensi> jbobausmi[8776], jbobansmi[8807], lobybausmi[9896], lobybansmi[9927], jbobausimsa[10835], ...
05:15 < gleki> looks like
05:15 < PrincessBecca> cool, i'm just trying to make sure my variables are right
05:16 < zipcpi> PrincessBecca: It is discouraged now to just make up new lujvo for concepts better expressed with tanru; even better if you can expand those tanru unambiguously
05:16 < PrincessBecca> alright
05:16 < gleki> no'i yes {jukni} and {tirxu} are borrowed from a very strange world
05:16 < PrincessBecca> it was in the corpus (IRC logs)
05:17 < zipcpi> Yeah there was a period of time where lujvo are just "shorter tanru"; but it isn't good for the language as designed
05:18 < zipcpi> brivla are supposed to represent a single concept each
05:18 < gleki> it's just that sometimes people begin to rant. E.g. in this case does {jbobau} refer to x3 of simsa or x2 of simsa?
05:18  * zipcpi nods
05:18 < gleki> most likely x2 but who knows.
05:18 < PrincessBecca> right
05:18 < gleki> thus there is a trend to avoid them
05:18 < PrincessBecca> i completely understand that, plus it obscures the logic
05:19 < PrincessBecca> took me forever to realize selbri = se bridi
05:19 < PrincessBecca> way too long, really.
05:34 < zipcpi> Oh yes, the "bug" thing; yep, it's commonly used to refer to any small arthropod, to the consternation of scientists who have given it a very specific meaning. Which is then to the consternation of laypeople annoyed with scientists appropriating common terms so that no one can correctly refer to anything without first being a taxonomist.
05:34 < zipcpi> :p
05:35 < gleki> so bug is {cinki}
05:35  * zipcpi nods
06:06 < zipcpi> I'm still sore that {gi TAG bo} doesn't work lol
06:08 < gleki> what should it mean?
06:09 < Ilmen> exp: mi klama gi ba bo do klama
06:09 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "k" found.
06:09 < Ilmen> exp: mi klama gi ba bo citka
06:09 < mensi> (mi [CU {klama VAU} {gi ba} bo {CU <citka VAU>} VAU])
06:09 < zipcpi> The problem-sentence in question takes the form .i ganai broda gibabo brode
06:10 < zipcpi> .i ganai lo do risna cu panra lo damri lo rilti gi babo cfari fa lo cnino nu lifri
06:10 < zipcpi> exp: .i ganai lo do risna cu panra lo damri lo rilti gi babo cfari fa lo cnino nu lifri
06:10 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "l" found.
06:11 < zipcpi> On the other hand
06:11 < zipcpi> exp: .i ganai lo do risna cu panra lo damri lo rilti gi baku cfari fa lo cnino nu lifri
06:11 < mensi> (i [CU {ga nai} {<lo (¹do risna¹) KU> <cu (¹panra [lo damri KU] [lo rilti KU]¹) VAU>} gi {<ba ku> <CU (¹cfari [fa {lo <cnino (²nu [CU {lifri VAU}] KEI²)> KU}] VAU¹)>} VAU])
06:11 < zipcpi> Why?
06:11 < zipcpi> exp: .i ganai broda gibabo brode
06:11 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "b" found.
06:12 < zipcpi> uanai bu'ocu'i
06:13 < Ilmen> broda gi'e ba bo brode ~> ba gi broda gi brode
06:14 < zipcpi> .i baganai lo do risna cu panra lo damri lo riltigi gi cfari fa lo cnino nu lifri
06:14 < omni___> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/FHxh5jNon7U/wD8mpYDd2zIJ
06:14 < zipcpi> This doesn't parse either
06:15 < zipcpi> coi la selpa'i / maybe you can help solve this mystery
06:15 < omni___> See the link.
06:15 < zipcpi> Oh
06:15 < zipcpi> So if it's a bad thing (tm) what is the best way to solve this?
06:15 < omni___> {giTAGbo} was a proposal by la tsani, a shortcut for {gijebabo} in the mad proposals
06:16 < omni___> It clashes with what you want, and what I proposed myself long ago
06:16 < zipcpi> Huh
06:16 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Do_you_hear_the_people_sing
06:16 < omni___> I translated it too
06:16 < zipcpi> Oh? Where's yours?
06:17 < omni___> On my harddrive
06:17 < zipcpi> Cool
06:17 < omni___> you skipped two lines it seems
06:17 < zipcpi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYb9sRLUDyM
06:18 < zipcpi> I was following this; the bridge is only six lines long
06:18 < omni___> Blocked in Germany
06:18 < zipcpi> uinai
06:19 < omni___> The second line is the hardest
06:19 < zipcpi> Anyway what do you think? Probably not half as good as yours :p
06:19 < omni___> I like yours
06:20 < omni___> I didn't publish mine because it doesn't rhyme
06:20 < zipcpi> Oh
06:20 < zipcpi> Mine only half-rhymes :p
06:21 < zipcpi> But Lojban isn't exactly an easy language to full-rhyme in pe'i
06:21 < omni___> Maybe not as as easy as English
06:21 < omni___> -as
06:22 < zipcpi> Yeah gismu anti-clashing algorithm doesn't help there :p
06:22 < omni___> There are a lot of tricks you can use to generate rhymes out of nowhere
06:22 < omni___> But you gotta dig deep to find those tricks!
06:22 < zipcpi> Yeah I'm not that certu yet
06:24 < omni___> How do you like our anthem?
06:24 < zipcpi> Which one is that? Is it the same one I saw a long time back?
06:24 < zipcpi> I hardly remember
06:25 < omni___> Most likely the same one.
06:25 < zipcpi> Ah
06:25 < omni___> http://mw.lojban.org/lmw/Lojban_Anthem
06:25 < zipcpi> Reminds me of my old school anthem in some ways
06:26 < omni___> I wanted to make a new one
06:27 < zipcpi> And sung by something other than a pre-Vocaloid synthesizer :p
06:29  * nuzba @freneziozino: mi xagmau za'a se bangu le spranto seja'e lo nu mi tadni le jbobau    #lojban [http://bit.ly/1HOoIbV]
06:29 < gleki> en:cigla
06:29 < mensi> cigla = x1 is a/the gland [body-part] secreting x2, of body x3; x2 is a secretion of x1.
06:29 < gleki> en:bongu
06:29 < mensi> bongu = x1 is a/the bone/ivory [body-part], performing function x2 in body of x3; [metaphor: calcium].
06:29 < zipcpi> I actually didn't have to work too hard to make the chorus rhyme at all; just so happened that the words I chose had assonance
06:29 < zipcpi> I did have to work on the bridge a bit though
06:30 < gleki> en:spranto
06:30 < mensi> spranto = x1 reflects Esperanto language/culture/community in aspect x2.
06:30 < gleki> en: spranto
06:30 < mensi> spranto = x1 reflects Esperanto language/culture/community in aspect x2. |>>> Cf. esperanton, bangepu'o. |>>>
06:30 < mensi> tijlan
06:30 < gleki> xm
06:31 < gleki> omni___: la alis cu mo i xu do ba gunka xau la maikl everson
06:32 < omni___> zipcpi: Btw, the contemplation interjection that a lot of people use is {.xym.} (sometimes sa'ei .xym.) and variations thereof. Since it's a cmevla there are jokes about {la .xym.}
06:33 < omni___> .i la .alis. zo'u su'o lo se jdice be la .everson. na se zanru mi
06:33 < omni___> .i mi zmanei lo nu mi gunka lo drata
06:34 < omni___> .i lo cukte pe la .alis. xa'o pu'i zvati lo mi kajnyta'e
06:34 < gleki> it's not [xm], it's [xã]
06:34 < omni___> cukta
06:35 < gleki> or maybe [xɔ̃]
06:35 < gleki> like in French "bonbons"
06:35 < zipcpi> Well the problem is that when I use English Hm it's so ambiguous. It's even a sore point with one of my friends :p
06:36 < zipcpi> Cause I have a bad habit for using it for {je'e} as well
06:36 < omni___> Yes, I know. It annoys me too :P
06:36 < gleki> omni___: ta'i ma co'a zvati
06:36 < gleki> omni___: i xu ba'e do zbasu
06:36 < omni___> sa'u gau mi cupra
06:36 < gleki> je'e
06:37 < zipcpi> Can't gauge tone over the Internet and all
06:37 < omni___> .i mi cupra re mupli
06:37 < zipcpi> Also often use it for {a'uru'e}
06:37 < gleki> there used to be a study of this "Hm = I'm thinking" across languages to find universals. sorry, no link from me
06:37 < omni___> .i pa lo mupli cu zvati lo me mi moi .i pa lo mupli mi se benji la .triliiyn.
06:38 < zipcpi> So then should it be xy'y? zo'oru'e
06:38 < zipcpi> I know that isn't a normal cmavo form
06:39 < omni___> Make it ma'e'i'o'u'a'e'i'o'u... repeat as long as you are pensive
06:39 < zipcpi> u'i
06:39 < gleki> > OK. Fine. My goal is to treat Lojban not like an oddball, but as a full citizen of the community of languages which enjoy fine Latin typography. Perhaps you do not see this as an interesting or valuable goal, but it is nevertheless the goal which I have.
06:39 < omni___> ji'a cupra la cmalu noltru je la nu binxo
06:40 < omni___> (to http://selpahi.weebly.com/vrici/lo-re-banli-cukta toi)
06:40 < zipcpi> Er, what was that in response to?
06:40 < zipcpi> Oh is that from Everson?
06:41 < zipcpi> The problem is that typography is phonemic in Lojban. Well, depending on how it's handled :p
06:42 < Ilmen> maybe [ə̃]
06:42 < Ilmen> *xə̃
06:42 < zipcpi> That's xy
06:42 < Ilmen> ie
06:42 < omni___> my'u
06:43 < Ilmen> you can use [.ŋ.] if you don't like [.y]  zo'o ru'e
06:43 < Ilmen> exp: la .m.
06:44 < mensi> ([la m KU] VAU)
06:44 < Ilmen> .u'i
06:44 < omni___> la .m. ba morsi .i la .ym. ba jmive
06:44 < zipcpi> ŋ isn't heard in Lojban except as an allophone of /n/ before /k g x/ anyway :p
06:44 < omni___> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/the_god_R
06:45 < zipcpi> la .yr.
06:45 < gleki> yes it's from Everson
06:46 < zipcpi> Oh that links to the initial ki'ai proposal
06:46 < gleki> so it looks like it will be me who will have to work on Alice. It was on my list anyway
06:47 < gleki> omni___: e'o do ciksi lo nu do frica la everson fi ma pe lo staile
06:50 < gleki> i will slowly work on the text here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_vkiwqOIOIJPqZTiomzd4ApUSEQXhEY6CeyZD_6c-PA/edit?usp=sharing
06:56 < zipcpi> ki'ai was one of the first experimental cmavo if I remember correctly
06:56 < zipcpi> xei is pretty old too
07:00  * nuzba @Iulius: @subetealanutria aquí se recoge "lon" como sí y "lon ala" como no al responder - http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/toki/?utm_content=bufferba71c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#sisku/lon [http://bit.ly/1HOx1Hm]
07:02 < omni___> ji'a mi tugni sai la .and.
07:02 < omni___> .i lo nu vimcu ro lujvo cu cizra
07:02 < gleki> tugni fi ma
07:02 < gleki> i ua i je'e
07:02 < gleki> i mi nu'o mulno djuno
07:03 < gleki> i ju'o su'o lo lujvo pu noroi se pilno
07:03 < gleki> i ta'o mi ca cikre lo formata be lo rusko xe fanva
07:08 < gleki> i xm i lo terjonma'o zo'u mi zukte ma ei
07:08 < gleki> lu ko'a je ko'e li'u ji lu ko'a e ko'e li[D[D[D[D[D[D[D'u
07:10 < gleki> and what to do with front dots in cmevla?
07:10 < gleki> and with final ones too.
07:12 < omni___> la .everson. cu jinvi lo du'u lo depybu'i na vajni
07:12 < omni___> (to ne lo cmevla toi)
07:12 < Ilmen> ru'a na sanji lo nu sfoneme
07:14 < gleki> you can already see how weird it looks
07:14 < gleki> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_vkiwqOIOIJPqZTiomzd4ApUSEQXhEY6CeyZD_6c-PA/edit#gid=0
07:14 < gleki> u'i maybe replace apostrophes with "h"?
07:19 < gleki> should i also replace  «lu with «Lu  ?
07:20 < gocti> "lu «"
07:20  * gocti to'o bajra
07:20 < gleki> xamgu preti
07:21 < gleki> i mi xa'o tatpi
07:21 < omni___> ue cu'i
07:23 < gleki> i dont like this «Lu
07:24 < gleki> how to spell William?
07:26 < gleki> and merging spli quotes will be catastrophic
07:26 <@Broca> uiliym?
07:26 < gleki> *split
07:26 < gleki> Broca: idk. it used to be {uiliam}
07:26 < gleki> en:atku'ila
07:26 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
07:28 < omni___> .oi sai ki'u ma pavmeigau lo sepli selsku
07:29 < bigcentaur> is there a word for "willing" or "consenting to"?
07:29 < omni___> randa, nalpro
07:29 <@Broca> Everson's endeavour angered me back then, and it still angers me.
07:29 < gleki> omni___: xu naku do pu tcidu
07:29 < omni___> mi tcidu ro da
07:29 <@Broca> If he were to try the same thing with a non-latin natlang, it would be cultural imperialism of the most ignorant sort.
07:29 < gleki> hm, but what to do then.
07:30 <@Broca> "Oh, Hindi looks so weird and unreadable with only lower-case letters! We have to add some capitals!"
07:30 < gleki> if he doesn't like the lackof {se'u} i can only suggest officializing {fa ko'a fa ko'e cu broda}
07:30 < bigcentaur> ahh thanks, omni___
07:30 < gleki> Broca: indeed. im gonna offer him anji mode for Lojban, zo'o
07:31 <@Broca> anji mode?
07:31 < gleki> anji: mi prami do
07:31 < mensi> 我 爱 你
07:32 < zipcpi> {ke'u}, typography is phonemic in Lojban. Poor typography is phonemic for "I don't know what the hell this language is designed for" zo'oru'e
07:34 < gleki> so if nobody approves of merging split quotes but {sei} is the stumbling block then i can only rework it all into {lu coi do li'u se cusku A bu fa lu i ma nuzba li'u}
07:34 < gleki> pei
07:34 < zipcpi> I mean I can understand including some brackets or punctuation to make things more readable, but random capitals? No. Just no.
07:35 < zipcpi> lo ci'onmau cu cusku lu nasai li'u
07:35 < gleki> he wants first letters of sentences to be capitalized.
07:35 < gleki> i also assume that names must be capitalized
07:35 < zipcpi> lo ci'onme'a ji'a go'i
07:36 < gleki> anyway it's just a technical issue. a simple regexp can solve capitalization
07:36 < zipcpi> I don't want first letters of sentences to be capitalized. It won't look like Lojban at all
07:37 <@Broca> I agree. But Michael Everson doesn't care (enough) what we think.
07:37 < gleki> yes
07:38 < gleki> and additionally few people will buy his book.
07:38 < gleki> since they are expensive.
07:38 < gleki> publish one thru Amazon/Lightning source and it will be cheaper.
07:38 < zipcpi> I can agree with putting angle quotes or bolding names, but capitalization is right out
07:38 < gleki> i dont like capitalizing {i} because it looks like "l"
07:39 <@Broca> His intended audience is apparently fans and collectors of Alice in Wonderland, which supposedly is a bigger market than Lojban fans.
07:39 < zipcpi> doi gleki do'u iesaisaisaisai
07:39 < gleki> indeed, why should we help him?
07:39 < zipcpi> mi xebni la .arial.
07:39 <@Broca> Eh, in a serif font it's distinctive enough.
07:39 < gleki> someone, tell him we need money from each book sold
07:39 <@Broca> Heh, heh, heh.
07:39 < gleki> zo'onai
07:40 < zipcpi> .i mu'ibo me'o ly cu mutce simsa me'o tau ibu
07:40 < gleki> Broca: tell him, do cmima LLG
07:41 < gleki> i will continue working but wont report to him on any progress.
07:41 < gleki> {ciftoldi} - is it really a cifnu?
07:41 < gleki> en: cifnu
07:41 < mensi> cifnu = x1 is an infant/baby [helpless through youth/incomplete development] of species x2. |>>> Also infantile.  See
07:42 < mensi> also makcu, verba. |>>> officialdata
07:42 < gleki> it is in no way helpless
07:42 < gleki> loglan:larva
07:42 < mensi> larva = B is a larva of V, an immature creature unlike the adult.
07:43 < zipcpi> So in loglan all infants are {larva}? u'i
07:44 < gleki> Even newborns in horses are not that helpless
07:44 < zipcpi> Yeah... not sure what the demarcation line should be
07:44 < zipcpi> bergu alert
07:45 < gleki> in cangaroos they are more cifnu
07:45 < gleki> even more than in humans
07:45 < zipcpi> ie
07:45 < durka42> coi
07:46 < gleki> humans have two stages: prenatal and postnatal. butterflies have three.
07:46 < gleki> or even more, depends on how you count
07:47 < omni___> mi kancu fi li vo
07:47 < gleki> mi na pante
07:48 < gleki> i just saw "I'a". wth? oh, it's my new Alice O_0
07:48 < omni___> il l'a vu
07:49 < gocti> Siha ro meho I poi se lidne meho H cu gahe-zei-gahe.
07:49 < zipcpi> I know right? It's just wrong
07:49 < gleki> removing {sei}saves some sylables
07:50 < zipcpi> Can you just publish the version with the vocabulary fixes but no capital letters somewhere pe'u
07:50 < gleki> zipcpi: no, because because anyone familiar with regexps can restore everything. so why bother?
07:51 < gocti> Pehi ei na ku fa poho lo cmima be la Fazykamni cu se ehande fi lo ka daspo lo bangu.
07:51 < zipcpi> u'i
07:52 < zipcpi> And yeah I do know my regexps
07:53 < gleki> k:danlupanda
07:53 < mensi> (CU [Z:danlupanda VAU])
07:53 < gleki> k:mabrupanda
07:53 < mensi> (KOhA:ma [CU {L:brupanda VAU}])
07:53 < durka42> da pu ca'o se nabmi lo pamei .ije da cusku lu .ia ui mi pilno lo jvame'o li'u .ije da co'a se nabmi lo remei
07:53 < gleki> why does aionys think the first one breaks apart?
07:53 < zipcpi> Why, do you need a word that means both {ci'onmau} and {ci'onme'a}? I don't see why; they are quite different
07:54 < gleki> personally i dont
07:54 < omni___> la'a lo nu nintadni cu krinu
07:54 < zipcpi> e'u zo {ci'onzo'e} zo'o
07:55 < omni___> ci'ondu'i
07:56 < zipcpi> u'i
07:57 < gleki> zo'o, if we have jukni/tirxu why not {panda}?
07:57 < gleki> {Ni'o La Alis cu zenba lo ka se cfipu.} Guess what I thought while reading this.
07:58 < omni___> do pensku si peisku lu mi ji'a go'i li'u
07:59 <@Broca> gleki: I don't know; what?
07:59 < omni___> .i zo la zo'u la .everson. zo'u me'o ly na ga'e zei lerfu
07:59 < gleki> na go'i i mi pu pensi tu'a zo zei'a
07:59 < omni___> je'e
07:59 < omni___> .i zo zi'e si
08:00 < gleki> Alice was more and more puzzled
08:00 < gleki> i zo'oi puzzled enai zo zenba cu enfoka ei
08:01 < omni___> zo zi'a je zo zi'e mapti
08:02 < omni___> .i zo ji'o je zo je'o mapti lo drata
08:02 < omni___> (to lo nu na dukse lo ka smisi'u cu terzu'e toi)
08:04  * nuzba @Rodericus: @gloria_gmgr «jan lili» está tan bien inventado que es normal: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/toki/#sisku/jan+lili  :D [http://bit.ly/1d1Dt0h]
08:04  * nuzba @gloria_gmgr: Traductor de #tokipona gracias a @Rodericus http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/toki/ cc @Lenguando [http://bit.ly/1J4V4lQ]
08:06 < zipcpi> doi gleki: But if you're implementing vocabulary simplification I don't see why Everson should need it if his market isn't Lojbanists. He can have the current version with the capitalization implemented :p
08:10 < durka42> dude asks for help with typesetting and lojbanists say "no wait, let me rewrite the whole thing first" :/
08:10 < zipcpi> Also when people say panda they 99% of the time are referring to {ci'onmau} anyway. {ci'onme'a} tends to be called the "red panda"
08:10 < gocti> Lo zo «sei» skandala cu jai nibli vau kuhi.
08:12 < durka42> ma skandala
08:12 < gocti> La Everson cu jinvi lo duhu lo gerna pe zo «sei» cu (to ue toi) pluja dukse
08:12 < zipcpi> oiro'e tcidu lo jbobau pe la .everson.
08:13 < durka42> mi tcidu lo se jinvi pe zo sei .i bebna .iku'i mu'i ma nibli lo du'u .ei sampygau ro lo valsi vau .u'i
08:13 < gocti> Ie buho
08:14 < omni___> xu gajanai gaje zo dei'a gi zo zei'a zasti gi nunracli fa lo nu gau zasti fa ji'a lo me zo dukse moi
08:14 < zipcpi> zo ze'ai cu basti zo zei'a
08:15 < zipcpi> la gleki cu cpedu me'au go'i
08:16 < omni___> cpedu lo ka go'i .i ja cpedu me'ei go'i
08:16 < zipcpi> .y.
08:16 < zipcpi> oise'i
08:17 < durka42> la gleki cu cpedu so'i da
08:17 < durka42> lo nu galfi lo sance na danfu lo preti .u'i
08:17 < omni___> da'i zo du'ei noi fegli mi li'a cu me zo dukse moi .i ma'a dukse lo ka pante tu'a lo bangu .i ma'a du'ei pante tu'a lo bangu
08:18 < gocti> Dahi ma se tcita sumti?
08:19 < omni___> lo te dukse
08:19 < durka42> lu du'eva'e li'u
08:20 < gocti> Sei srana mo fa lo dahi sumtcita poi kansa lo nu pilno zo duhe?
08:20 < zipcpi> oi aunai nu ranji pilno la .eversonjban.
08:20 < gocti> Buhaha
08:20 < omni___> sei srana se'u
08:20 < gocti> Uhu
08:20 < gocti> Oi sehi
08:21 < omni___> mi pu djica tu'a lo simsa
08:21 < omni___> .i la'a mi so'o roi casnu zo be'au
08:21 < omni___> .i du'e da zvati .i dukse fi ma
08:22 < omni___> .i rau da zvati .i banzu ma
08:22 < omni___> .i be'au ma
08:22 < omni___> jbo:be'au
08:22 < mensi> be'au = [BAI] fi'o se banzu
08:22 < gocti> Ei sai satcymau
08:23 < omni___> su da pu zu stidi lo du'u lo nu pilno zo du'e ja lo simsa cu rinka lo nu pa cnino tersu'i cu se jmina fi lo bridi
08:23 < zipcpi> Wait is FAhA2 from the perspective of the speaker or the object?
08:24 < gocti> Lo nu jmina lo cnino tersuhi zohu: liha sarcu fa lo nu ro da tugni fi lo duhu xo kau da stodi tersuhi
08:24 < omni___> .i mi citka du'e da .i mi citka du'e da lo nu planyjdika
08:24 < omni___> sei mupli
08:24 < omni___> ie
08:24 < omni___> .i ka'e cfipu
08:25 < gocti> Pei dahi zo behau cmavo mahoi «coi»?
08:25 < omni___> .i drata cumki fa lo nu finti lo cnino fa zei cmavo noi simsa zo fai je ku'i noi co'e zo du'e
08:29 < gocti> La Korp cu djuno no da pe lu «duhe zei fai» li'u noi mi pu birti lo duhu keha suho roi se pilno
08:29 < gocti> *zehei
08:32 < gocti> zipcpi: sihau BPFK boi jiha na djuno
08:35 < zipcpi> mi na se bangu zo'ei di'u
08:35 < zipcpi> ki'ai .lalalalalalalan.
08:35 < zipcpi> mi na ka'e tir~~~~na
08:35 < gocti> uhi
08:36 < zipcpi> na djuno ma
08:37 < gocti> lo duhu lo faha zei re zei cmavo cu mo kau
08:37 < zipcpi> oi
08:38 < omni___> lo'u .lanlanlanlan.
08:38 < gocti> (to na ekplicite cusku. `i kuhi zaha buho bahe *simlu* lo ka pilno tai lo nu lo se tcita cu jai ve farna toi)
08:39 < omni___> BPFK na manfo lo ka jinvi ma kau
08:39 < gocti> nihocagicohozeicohegismaji menli iloxadni noicohanovahekukohoculno ba liholiholiho
08:39 < omni___> .i sa'e lo cmima cu go'i
08:42 < gleki> nice. Ljban is promoted in Twitter via la sutysisku
08:43 < gleki> zipcpi: indeed he can do everything himself. i think his only problem is {sei}. as for capitalization you can get a non capitalized version by just saying /\u/ to the whole text :P
08:45 < zipcpi> doi gocti do ca pilno lo bangu poi mi te cmene ke'a la pinji prenu itku'ile
08:46 < zipcpi> .y. pindi
08:46 < zipcpi> na pinji
08:46 < zipcpi> mi mutce srera
08:46 < zipcpi> oi
08:46 < omni___> do te cmene fi ba'e lu pindi prenu .itku'ile li'u
08:46 < gocti> ia sai la `Everson` kahe pilno lo gentufa te zuhe lo nu facki tuha zo «sei»
08:47 < gleki> la'a la everson cu lazni ijonai ki'u ma na jimpe fi zo sei
08:47 < zipcpi> (That's what I call the style where you stick all the cmavo to the next brivla. "Poor man's Ithkuil"
08:48 < zipcpi> Why? Well, take this sentence e.g. http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4228582
08:48 < zipcpi> I'm sure that's a single word in Ithkuil :p
08:48 < gleki> .title
08:48 < gocti> (to va'o ku ma cmene lo me lu «zdane'ikemcmafagyso'ikemprununjelca» moi toi)
08:49 < zipcpi> Well if we pretend to stick all that cmavo to the next brivla, it's one word in Lojban too!
08:49 < gleki> http://tatoeba.org/eng/sentences/show/4228582
08:49 < gleki> phenny: 
08:49 < gleki> .title
08:49 < phenny> gleki: Lojban example sentence: co'u nai je ku'i ze'ai carvi - Tatoeba
08:49 < zipcpi> co'unaijeku'ize'aicarvi
08:49 < gleki> Instead of stopping, the rain increased.
08:51 < gocti> {co'u nai} ==xunai {co'u na'e bo zo'e}?
08:51 < zipcpi> And if you gloss it to English you can make it look like Ithkuil glosses too!
08:51 < gleki> hm, i think it can be doubted that co'unai means what it means here
08:52 < zipcpi> [CSS][NEG][AND][CNT][INC]-rain
08:52 < gleki> on this page i cant find any confirmation for this meaning of {co'unai} http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Stub:_Grammatical_aspects
08:52 < gleki> nor any ibjection to this
08:52 < gleki> *objection
08:53 < gleki> what would {ca'onai} mean then? lack of development?
08:53 < zipcpi> That it's not going on right now
08:53 < zipcpi> pe'i
08:54 < zipcpi> Or not going on during the period of time in question
08:54 < gleki> what is "not in progress"? not in the middle of the progress? then where?
08:54 < gleki> zipcpi: that's {canai}
08:54 < omni___> ca'o nai broda == lo nu broda cu fasnu gi'e nai farmiju
08:54 < zipcpi> Well not every {nai} needs to be useful
08:54 < bigcentaur> .i ca'a bu'u la montreal carvi
08:54 < gocti> cumosisi
08:55 < gleki> omni___: li'a i ku'i ca ma i xu ka'e xo'i co'a gi'a xo'i mo'u
08:55 < gocti> .u'u sai
08:55 < omni___> zo sai ia cu'i zo'o
08:55 < gleki> Windows 10 got a mascot. Lojban?
08:55 < zipcpi> And gleki, I did put on the discussion page about why I think cessative means "I have stopped eating the mango (implying interruption / incompleteness)", rather than "I have quit"
08:55 < zipcpi> Quit implies intention
08:55 < omni___> pe'i pei lo nu co'a broda cu nu broda
08:56 < gleki> zipcpi: then {zu'e co'u} = quit?
08:56 < omni___> .i pe'i pei lo nu co'u broda cu nu broda
08:56 < bigcentaur> can you use ji as a tense question word?
08:56 < gocti> ia na bi'ai
08:56 < gleki> omni___: mi na djuno i mi kucli tu'a lu ca'onai дшэг
08:56 < gleki> si
08:56 < gleki> li'u
08:56 < zipcpi> gleki: Yeah seems appropriate
08:57 < zipcpi> Although if asked to translate "I am qutting eating mangoes"
08:57 < zipcpi> I would probably use ai or ainai
08:58 < gleki> zipcpi: okay actually the second scheme agrees with you. find an example with pure {co'u} and put the "quit" version into a new "quittative" zo'o aspect.
08:58 < zipcpi> Also this particular English sentence is a lot stronger than "I quit eating the mango". That implies that you quit eating that mango
08:58 < gleki> ai => I'm gonna, Let me
08:59 < zipcpi> Yes, ai mi sisti ro lo ka citka lo mango
09:00 < zipcpi> It's a very strong English sentence. It's the same construction as "I am quitting smoking"
09:01 < gleki> okay, okay. invent translation for quit and stop. although dont remove existing aspects or their translations, just separate them, split them
09:01 < zipcpi> Oh OK
09:01 < zipcpi> I'm not sure if it's properly an aspect though :p
09:01 < omni___> xo da ka citka lo mango
09:02 < gleki> {ai}?
09:02 < zipcpi> Not just {ai}, but the intention to quit
09:02 < zipcpi> lo ka aidji lo ka sisti
09:02 < omni___> Quit pro quo, sa quid pro quo.
09:03 < gleki> pro kio?
09:03 < zipcpi> prokiione
09:03 < gleki> sei lo prokiioni cu pante
09:03 < omni___> prostata
09:03 < omni___> sei tcizbaga
09:03 < gleki> prostati
09:03 < omni___> pu stati
09:03 < gocti> fapstati sei .fapfapfap.
09:03 < omni___> stati lo ka fapro
09:04 < omni___> kakspati
09:05 < omni___> ti'e pei la keidji co'a rilpesa
09:05 < zipcpi> http://www.kaimann.com/uk-en/special-products?sid=1476 xu ti ckaji fapro
09:05 < omni___> kaipirina kukte
09:07 < keidji> omni___: .i mi na rilpesa .i mi je'utra lo nu mi rilpesa
09:08 < omni___> .oi
09:08 < gocti> ma te frica
09:08 < omni___> mi nalfaudri sai ki'e nai ru'e
09:09 < omni___> ki'u ma jifsku fi lo drata jbopre
09:09 < omni___> .i ma'a lanzu pei
09:09 < omni___> ni'o zo klatcu zo'u .i'a pei x1 nitcu lo ka klama x2 kei x3
09:09 < omni___> .i zu'u nai simsa sai zo zvatcu va#o
09:11  * nuzba @Lenguando: Un traductor de toki pona, para quien estuvo en el taller de @subetealanutria en #Valenguando (o frikis sin más) https://twitter.com/gloria_gmgr/status/603936904107655168 [http://bit.ly/1GGLyDu]
09:11  * nuzba @uitki: Stub: Grammatical aspects - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Stub:_Grammatical_aspects by Spheniscine [http://bit.ly/1GGMiZi]
09:12 < omni___> .i'e di'a tu'itsku fa lo uitki
09:12 < zipcpi> If the status of FAhA2 is unclear, would it be better to use {ze'o} instead of {ti'a} in my translation?
09:12 < gocti> keidji: (to ma noi me lo re smuni poi se ganse cu drani toi)
09:14 < omni___> http://mw.lojban.org/images/a/a0/zo%27a_zo%27i_ze%27o.png
09:14 < zipcpi> Yeah I think ze'o would be right then
09:15 < omni___> #picasso
09:16 < zipcpi> Of course it's still {ze'o pe'a}, because {lo se rinju} is not material
09:18 < zipcpi> I wonder who should sing it though :p
09:18 < zipcpi> Will probably need the second bridge at least
09:20  * nuzba @AthanSpod: *once more ponders learning Lojban* - Crash Blossoms and Being Drunk: Ambiguity https://youtu.be/ldT2g2qDQNQ via @YouTube [http://bit.ly/1FiTHK2]
09:21 < zipcpi> Looks at video... ouch
09:24 < zipcpi> Yeah center embedding is about as bad as nonce lujvo zo'o
09:26 < gocti> keidji: (to pau ja'ai toi)
09:27 < gleki> A Lojbanist raced past the garden path fell.
09:27 < zipcpi> lol
09:28 < zipcpi> The problem is that the English {noi} uses commas, but the English {poi} doesn't
09:31 < gocti> xu do djuno lo du'u lo nu tu'e to lu .a se cusku mi clira fa tu'a nu'i do lo badna mi djuno fa lo badna zo'e fadni pe zi'o fo ma
09:33 < gleki> oi do se bangu la fitx xu
09:33 < gleki>  i ta'o na gendra
09:33 < zipcpi> Also the English {poi} often just flat out isn't represented
09:34 < zipcpi> So it's just... implied beginning, implied end
09:34 < zipcpi> Yeah lots of room for constructing garden path sentences iwth
09:35 < zipcpi> Almost all of them use center embedding
09:35 < gocti> cipr: xu do djuno lo du'u lo nu tu'e to lu .a se cusku mi clira fa tu'a nu'i do lo badna mi djuno fa lo badna zo'e fadni pe zi'o fo ma
09:35 < cipr> (xu [{FA do} {CU <djuno (¹[{FE <lo (²[du'u {<(³FA [lo {<nu (⁴tu'e [to {<FA (⁵lu a LI'U⁵)> <CU (⁵[se cusku] [{FE mi} VAU]⁵)>} TOI] [CU {clira <(⁵fa [tu'a {nu'i <(⁶FI'A do⁶) (⁶FI'A [lo badna KU]⁶) (⁶FI'A mi⁶)> NU'U} LU'U]⁵) VAU>}] TU'U⁴) KEI> djuno} KU]³) (³fa [lo badna KU]³) (³FE zo'e³)> <CU (³fadni VAU³)>} KEI] [pe {FI'A zi'o} GE'U]²) KU>} {fo ma}] VAU¹)>}])
09:36 < zipcpi> Does anyone ever actually use {ge'u}?
09:36  * gocti cu galgau lo birka
09:36 < gleki> zipcpi: see K zei S
09:37 < gleki> cipr: lu a
09:37 < zipcpi> ki'a
09:37 < cipr> ([FA {lu a LI'U}] VAU)
09:37 < gleki> exp: lu a
09:37 < mensi> ([lu a LIhU] VAU)
09:37 < keidji> gocti | omni__: .i mi na rilpesa .i mi pu tavla fi lo nu cilre be fi lo nu rilpesa
09:37 < gleki> exp: xu do djuno lo du'u lo nu tu'e to lu .a se cusku
09:37 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "c" found.
09:38 < gleki> cipr: xu do djuno lo du'u lo nu tu'e to lu .a se cusku
09:38 < cipr> (xu [{FA do} {CU <djuno (¹[FE {lo <du'u (²[FA {lo <nu (³tu'e [to {<FA (⁴lu a LI'U⁴)> <CU (⁴[se cusku] VAU⁴)>} TOI] VAU TU'U³) KEI> KU}] VAU²) KEI> KU}] VAU¹)>}])
09:38 < gleki> zipcpi: korp.alexburka.com
09:38 < gocti> keidji: je'e
09:39 < gocti> (to .a'o lo nu cilre cu se jalge da toi)
09:40 < zipcpi> 467 uses
09:40 < zipcpi> pe mi ge'u pe fo'a
09:41 < zipcpi> Yeah that makes sense
09:41 < zipcpi> Without it pe fo'a would attach to mi instead
09:41 < zipcpi> It can be hard to remember these sometimes though :p
09:44 < omni___> mi pagre lo rictu'a pe lo tsurotro'u tricu ge'u .e ba bo lo concoicno xamsi
09:44 < omni___> .ebabo
09:45  * omni___ si la .omni cu vacycti
09:46 < gleki> exp:lo nu mo mi pe mi ge'u pe fo'a
09:46 < mensi> ([lo {<nu (¹CU [mo {mi <pe mi ge'u>} VAU]¹) KEI> <pe fo'a GEhU>} KU] VAU)
09:46 < gleki> exp:lo mo be mi pe mi ge'u pe fo'a
09:46 < mensi> ([lo {<mo (¹be [mi {pe mi ge'u}] BEhO¹)> <pe fo'a GEhU>} KU] VAU)
09:49 < gleki> be'o and vau
10:10 < gleki> pls refrain from editing the wiki for two hours
10:13 < zipcpi> Oh? Some update?
10:13 < zipcpi> Maybe I'll just take a break then. See ya
10:13 < zipcpi> co'o
11:29 < gocti> .u'è la zbabu cu tavla fi lo si'o ve bajra ku fau lo nu na mlauca lo simsa be lu «la .galop.» li'u
11:31 < gleki> lo mlauca cu mo
11:31 < gocti> me'oi mention
11:33 < gleki> en:mlauca
11:33 < gocti> nu'o se jbovlaste
11:34 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:40 < zipcpi> OK finished the second bridge: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Do_you_hear_the_people_sing
11:40 < zipcpi> Someone please check my use of logical connectives
11:41 < zipcpi> I might not be using them correctly
11:41 < zipcpi> Like... I wonder if I left out the {de}, I would just flat out make a contradiction?
11:42 < zipcpi> Because all the {zo'e} still gets "copied" and mean the same thing
11:43 < gleki> You may edit LMW again. As for changes to the skin it's a bug that we dont know how to fix yet.
11:44 < gleki> The logo and the elements on top should be removed but changing correspoding parameters in LocalSettings.php  doesnt help atm
11:44 < zipcpi> Ah
11:45 < gleki> " figuring that someone would figure out how to fill them later" cu'u la lojbab
11:45 < gleki> Someone!
11:45 < gleki> Someone!
11:45 < gleki> la samyuan!
11:45 < zipcpi> lol
11:45 < zipcpi> Do we have a new god now
11:45 < gleki> la lojbab cu se slabu la samyuan
11:47 < gocti> zipcpi: I would do {.i da ba jmive .i je de na go'i .i se ju bo na terpa}
11:47 < gocti> (that might well break the rhythm - I've never heard the song to know)
11:48 < zipcpi> Hmm... you'll have to sing pretty fast
11:49 < gocti> cowan: mo .i je mo .i je mo
11:49 < mensi> ({<mo VAU> <i je> <mo VAU>} {i je} {mo VAU})
11:49 < gocti> cowan: mo .i je mo .i je bo mo
11:49 < mensi> ({mo VAU} {i je} {<mo VAU> <[i je] bo> <mo VAU>})
11:51 < zipcpi> But they can *just* squeeze into the unstressed notes
11:52 < zipcpi> But yeah I've heard selpahi's version of Still Alive, so I guess it's just standard
11:52 < gocti> l'nu l'nu l'nu
11:52 < zipcpi> ki'a
11:53 < gocti> sa'u lu «lo nu» li'u jai cafne fai lo nu torzengau ke'a
11:53 < zipcpi> But yeah I've compared it with the Cantonese version... Cantonese is very information dense, even more so than Mandarin Chinese IIRC
11:54 < zipcpi> And I understand some of it
11:54 < zipcpi> Enough to know they *add* a lot of stuff to the song
11:54 < zipcpi> On the other hand, translating it to Lojban feels like that maxim about when there's nothing left to remove, you have achieved perfection :p
11:55 < gocti> ba'a la to'anzu zo'u simsa .i lo togysfoneme se memkai cu bramau lo me lo gandungva moi
11:55 < gocti> ie
11:55 < zipcpi> Crap now I'm reading everything in that song's meter
11:59 < NuqBai> ^glu
11:59 < zipcpi> At least it may be a bit easier than translating to Malay. Malay is also rather sparse. Except that unlike Lojban you can't just leave out "empty" nouns
11:59 < NuqBai> sei snipa
11:59 < gleki> guaspi:nuq
11:59 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:59 < NuqBai> to'anzu
11:59 < gocti> *gandunygva .u'u
11:59 < gleki> to'anzu:nuq
11:59 < gleki> zo'o
11:59 < NuqBai> guaspi:nuw
11:59 < gocti> xe'e
12:00 < gocti> since xu ba'a nai ru'e
12:00 < NuqBai> go'i
12:00 < NuqBai> guaspi:guna
12:00 < gocti> su'a la vreji cu mo
12:00 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
12:00 < gocti> y
12:00 < gocti> la vrici
12:00 < mensi> guna = X1 is a snake
12:01 < NuqBai> !guna ^vba
12:01 < NuqBai> ue simsa milxe
12:03 < zipcpi> Though tonal languages do lose some information when sung :p
12:03 < NuqBai> Toaq Dzu rap yo
12:03 < NuqBai> Each verse is a whole chapter zo'o
12:03 < zipcpi> Is "NuqBai" Toaq Dzu? :p
12:04 < NuqBai> Oui.
12:04 < zipcpi> Whole chapter of Les Miserables? lol
12:04 < zipcpi> I've never read it
12:04 < zipcpi> Or watched it
12:04 < NuqBai> I'm not talking about Les Miserables
12:04 < zipcpi> :p
12:04 < NuqBai> Just joking about Toaq Dzu's succintness
12:04 < zipcpi> Yeah I know
12:06 < gleki> NuqBai: xu lo vlaste pu'i bredi
12:06 < NuqBai> na go'i
12:09 < gleki> xu cinri ma'i lo lojbo
12:12 < gleki> You can now learn Esperanto on Duolingo
12:12 < NuqBai> ma lojbo .i na djuno lo du'u xu kau cinri do
12:14 < gocti> da'i xamgu fa lo nu no roi ba bu'u la jbogu'e da tavla fi la du uo lingo
12:19 < zipcpi> And hey I didn't use a single lujvo
12:19 < zipcpi> I did use some when trying to fit stuff in but then dropped them
12:20 < zipcpi> Nope all core gismu list. Though I did use some experimental cmavo
12:20 < gocti> ralbrivo ke condi stura tezu'elonujinga
12:22 < NuqBai> en:tapka'u
12:23 < mensi> [< stapa kantu ≈ Step quantum] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
12:23 < mensi> tapka'u[6387], tapkantu[7937], stapyka'u[8497], stapykantu[10047]
12:23 < zipcpi> Part of it though is that my vocabulary isn't that great. :p
12:23 < NuqBai> ju'i nai
12:25 < gocti> ca da tolpo'u .i ca da ma'asno .i mi co'u jimpe da la vrici
12:26 < NuqBai> zoi gy. take three steps .gy zo'u lu ko ci roi stapa li'u na sai jai banzu
12:27 < gocti> ki'u xu lo nu lo nu stapa ka'e nu gasnu za'u tapka'u
12:28 < gocti> (to nu pa roi stapa toi)
12:28 < NuqBai> ma smuni zo stapa .i xu na ku fe ji'a zoi gy. I stepped on gum .gy mapti .i na nu cadzu .i sanli je ba bo muvgau lo tuple ja'e lo nu sanli lo  batmai
12:29 < NuqBai> .i sa'e xu lo nu muvdu cu sarcu lo nu stapa
12:29 < NuqBai> .i ka'e diklo sa'e nai stapa
12:30 < NuqBai> .i ku'i ie ji'a xu lo nu stapa na bi'ai nu pa roi muvgau lo tuple
12:30 < gocti> lb: stapa
12:30 < mensi> stapa = stapa — x1(entity)  steps on surface  x2(entity)  using limbs  x3(entity)
12:30 < mensi> :le xirma pu jundi stapa lo bisli lo sufti — The horse carefully stepped on the ice with her hoofs.
12:30 < mensi> :mi pu stapa se ka'a le cripu — I stepped to the bridge.
12:30 < mensi> :Related words: bajra, plipe, cadzu, skalera
12:31 < NuqBai> frica zo cadzu ma va'o ku
12:31 < NuqBai> jbo:stapa
12:31 < mensi> stapa = x1 gasnu lo nu x2 noi sefta cu se cpana x3 noi jamfu x1
12:32 < NuqBai> ie
12:32 < gocti> .u'i ja'o .ei stika lo natlanga velcki
12:32 < gocti> .i lo drata smuni zo'u zo jmamu'u ka'e ju'o nai mapti
12:33 < gocti> y
12:33 < gocti> na jamfu .i tuple
12:35 < NuqBai> mi'e la .bil.  velbajra bo za'umei
12:35 < NuqBai> .u'i se'i
12:35 < gocti> .i xu lo ka bajra cu klesi lo ka cadzu .i xu lo se go'i cu go'i lo go'i
12:35 < gocti> .u'i
12:36 < NuqBai> mi pu sruma lo du'u na klesi
12:37 < NuqBai> .i ta'o nai va'o ji'a lo nu zo stapa se smuni lo me la .xorxes. moi na jai banzu fa lu ko ci roi stapa li'u
12:37 < gocti> sa'u smadi lo du'u cu'umki fa lo nu lo banfi'i cu .aidji lo nu zo stapa co'e lo ka bajra ja cadzu
12:38 < NuqBai> ie cumki
12:39 < gocti> .i da'i zo tapka'u zasti .i lo pilno cu se vitke lo klani valsi nabmi
12:39 < gocti> .i mu'a ta'i ma cusku lo me zoi fa 512 MB fa moi
12:41 < NuqBai> pe'i zo tapka'u ji'a na jai banzu .i da'i na smudra .i ku'i fancuco'e lo smuni .i na se pagbu lo si'o cadzu .i ku'i lo glico ja'a go'i .i la'a lu cadzu fau lo nu ci roi stapa li'u drani
12:41 < NuqBai> (to zo stapa ja lo je'a mapti toi)
12:42 < NuqBai> .i lo klani valsi zo'u kemke'e
12:42 < NuqBai> le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le
12:48 < gocti> ru'a no da do'o si'a nuzba be la .selkik.
12:49 < NuqBai> ie .oi
12:51 < gocti> .i zdakla zei co'o
12:52 < NuqBai> co'o
13:08 < durka42> coi ru'e mi'e ca'o bilma .oi bu'o cu'i
13:10 < NuqBai> di'ai
14:27 < Ilmen> coi
14:27 < Ilmen> Sai
14:28 < durka42> coi
14:28 < Zarutian> coi pa do .i doi la Ilmen
14:28 < mensi> Zarutian: cu'u la'o gy.zipcpi.gy.: Actually if it's going to be a Lojban-speaking country/land I don't see why "rupnu"
14:28 < mensi> can't be their official currency. Or maybe "jboru'u" :p | 2015-05-23T03:59:06.570Z
14:33  * Zarutian is a bit started at mensi relaying that message.
14:39 < b_jonas> mensi: and the concrete name could be {la jbogu'e solji} = gold piece of lojbanistan
14:39 < mensi> I am not interested in names.
14:39 < durka42> xu do rinsa la .ilmen. jenai mi uinai
14:39 < Ilmen> ca'e mi basti fi lo ka rinsa la durkai
14:40 < Ilmen> ŭe ŭa nai la mensi cu se glibau
14:41 < durka42> xu lo jbogu'e te rupnu cu jinme lo solji .i da'i lo'e jdima cu cipra gerna bo javni vau zo'o
14:56 < Ilmen> pe'i pei ganlo fa lo vorme na .e ja'ai lo vrogai
14:59 < Ilmen> .i ku'i co'o
15:14 < NuqBai> mensi: doi Ilmen .i pe'i lo vorme je nai lo vrogai cu ganlo
15:14 < mensi> NuqBai: mi ba benji di'u ba lo nu la'o gy.Ilmen.gy. di'a cusku da
15:18 < kvagram> coi ro du
15:19 < NuqBai> coi
15:19 < kvagram> coi ro do*
15:23 < NuqBai> ki'u ma so'i prenu cu ze'i sai .irci
15:27  * nuzba @fnxTX: @ligervision @EvanMcM @stevedekorte see Lojban. I'm a fan. [http://bit.ly/1KBzm9w]
15:32 < durka42> coi
15:32 < durka42> ua ui nai
15:32 < durka42> ro du be ma sei mi kucli
17:48  * nuzba @Dank_scriptor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-JKVBn6c4   a lojban song from Corbin, it has good vibes, very likeable, feels jazzy and good mood. retwiteable ^^ [http://bit.ly/1d2EMfm]
19:08  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: New favourite #Lojban word: {gleua}        .i mi gleua li ro zo gleua [http://bit.ly/1GIh6co]
19:30  * nuzba @uitki: AKTUALISIERTE SEITE:  Willkommen! (Deutsch) - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Willkommen!_(Deutsch) von Guskant [http://bit.ly/1LOU3vG]
20:02  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: @cizyprijev It's in the dictionaries! http://sutsis.nomei.la/search/gleua http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/lookup.pl?Form=lookup.pl1&Query=gleua&Strategy=*&Database=en%3C-%3Ejbo&submit=Submit+query [http://bit.ly/1QehwIe]
20:12  * nuzba @willingtheweird: I just found a page addressing cursing in Lojban. So awesome. [http://bit.ly/1QeieFg]
20:56  * nuzba @willingtheweird: @dustinlacewell A page? I apologize. I am new to Lojban (my grammar in my tweet was incoorect). [http://bit.ly/1J6P0JH]
21:02  * nuzba @zarpaulus: Huh, @duolingo finally added Esperanto. Was wondering what took them so long. When do they teach Lojban? Or Klingon? #Esperanto [http://bit.ly/1FdHmpE]
21:02  * nuzba @willingtheweird: @willingtheweird http://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity [http://bit.ly/1J6Py2b]
23:34  * nuzba @uitki: profanity - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/profanity by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1LN69WM]
23:42 < gleki> looks like we are almost done with fixing glitches in LMW
23:42 < gleki> i mean on server side
--- Day changed Fri May 29 2015
01:12  * nuzba @uitki: proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/proga:LMW_-_Lojbanic_MediaWiki by Guskant - /* ToDo and the future of le uitki */ Extension:WikiArticleFeeds [http://bit.ly/1KsS0xc]
02:24  * nuzba @janJulo: @SoweliTelo mucha gente ha llegado al toki pona a través d otras conlangs. Sobre todo del Esperanto y el Lojban, creo, como dice @Rodericus [http://bit.ly/1HWgMVZ]
02:30  * nuzba @Rodericus: @janJulo @SoweliTelo Sobre el lojban dije lo contrario. :) [http://bit.ly/1HWhrqv]
02:32  * nuzba @janJulo: @Rodericus @SoweliTelo ¿que mucha gente llega al lojban vía toki pona? [http://bit.ly/1HWhy5l]
02:36  * nuzba @janJulo: @Rodericus @SoweliTelo Oye y ¿qué es más sencillo de aprender? ¿Esperanto o Lojban? [http://bit.ly/1HWhYsH]
02:38  * nuzba @Rodericus: @janJulo @SoweliTelo Son planteamientos diferentes. Para el lojban echo en falta buenos métodos y material de referencia actualizado. [http://bit.ly/1HWigQ9]
02:40  * nuzba @Rodericus: @janJulo @SoweliTelo El esperanto ya funciona como otras lenguas, el lojban ―no sé hasta qué punto es percepción― parece aún más cambiante. [http://bit.ly/1SG89VC]
02:50  * nuzba @janJulo: @SoweliTelo Seguro. Pero bueno, están metiendo Lojban, creo, tampoco estaría tan fuera de lugar. Y se montaría en un periquete [http://bit.ly/1HWjuuS]
02:52  * nuzba @janJulo: @SoweliTelo Ah, y lo que están metiendo no es lojban. Es ¡Klingon! O_o [http://bit.ly/1HWjI4V]
02:54  * nuzba @SoweliTelo: @janJulo Pero Lojban está también en sus mentes, porque es uno de los idiomas "predeterminados" para los que puedes ofrecerte. [http://bit.ly/1SG9sUD]
05:09 < Ilmen> coi
05:09 < mensi> Ilmen: cu'u la'o gy.NuqBai.gy.: .i pe'i lo vorme je nai lo vrogai cu ganlo | 2015-05-28T22:14:09.
05:09 < mensi> 508Z
05:16 < gleki> ue
05:16 < gleki> za'ure'u casnu
05:42  * nuzba @uitki: Lojban IRC (de) - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_IRC_(de) by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1dBCMM3]
05:54  * nuzba @komiga: @S0phieH Oh cool! I wonder if they'll ever get Lojban. [http://bit.ly/1dBDKb3]
06:12  * nuzba @freneziozino: {ca lo prulamdei mi ba'o cilre la .esperanton. sepi'o la duolingos} #lojban [http://bit.ly/1dBF79Z]
07:04  * nuzba @uitki: L17-01 - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/L17-01 by Gleki - /* Human body */ [http://bit.ly/1ACckfo]
07:26 < Steffmeistro> 'ei
07:27 < gleki> na gendra
07:28 < Steffmeistro> mi djuno
07:35 <@xalbo> gendra na'i .i na vladra
07:37 < gleki> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Gendra.jpg
07:37 < gleki> Gendra was a male Quarren who resided in Mos Eisley during the Galactic Civil War.
07:38 < gleki> ju'ozo'o lo rirni be la gendra pu lojbo
07:41 < selpahi> zoi zoi. 'ei .zoi zo'u sfe'ero lojbo
07:42 < durka42> coi
07:42 < selpahi> coi la durkavore
07:42 < selpahi> si durkycti
07:44 < durka42> mi na djunu lo du zukte makau tau la kibjasyselkei
07:46 < selpahi> ki'u su krinu zo du ne CKTJ za'o cizra ru'e mi .i ji'i ro drata cnino cu na'e cizra mi
07:47 < gleki> oi logbanu
07:50 < durka42> ro srana be CKTJ cu cizymle .u'i mi .i mi ta'e cenba lo du xukau pilno ri .i zo du'u mu'a co'a smucau .i nabmi
07:51 < selpahi> sa'u zo du poi laldo cu plixau
07:51 < selpahi> .i je mi kanpe lo nu ba zu ru'e co'u vajni fa lo te frica be zo nu bei zo du'u
07:53  * nuzba @uitki: L17-03 - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/L17-03 by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1EEfMkO]
07:55 < gleki> e'u zo nu dunli lu su'u be zi'o li'u ije lo cnino valsi cu smuni dunli zo nu poi laldo je pe lo nu fasnu
07:55 < selpahi> cizra .i'e zo'o
07:56 < selpahi> .i su da tau zo po pu stidi sei srana
07:56 < gleki> lo si'o ka se djica cu me zo nu moi i ku'i ei zo du'u
07:56 < selpahi> ba'e zo djica zo'u la'a no'e vajni
07:57 < gleki> i mi na nelci to ie na nelci toi lo nu lo gentufa na kakne lo ka galfi lo cekitaujaus lo laldo jbobau i ku'i mu'a zo zai poi cnino zo'u na djuno
07:57 < mensi> sei mi stace mi na mutce nelci
07:58 < selpahi> lo gentufa na je lo basti tutci cu kakne ba'a sai
07:59 < selpahi> zo zai mapti gaje zo zvati gi zoi gy.  在 .gy noi jungo
07:59 < durka42> zo zai cu mo
08:00 < selpahi> voi la cirko cu stidi lo du'u ki basti zo bu'u
08:02 < durka42> ue ua
08:02 < durka42> xu ca lerfu basti cmavo co mabla
08:02 < durka42> vlaste: zai
08:02 < vlaste> zai = 2-word letteral/shift: alternate alphabet selector follows.
08:03 < gleki> mi pilno lo ca jbobau noi claxu lo vlipa gentufa
08:03 < gleki> i mi pilno lo jbobau noi na ambigu i la cekitaujas zo'u sa'u ma na djuno lo du'u xukau cumki jai gau ambigu be n
08:03 < gleki> sa
08:03 < gleki> sa
08:04 < gleki> i mi pilno lo jbobau noi na ambigu i la cekitaujas zo'u sa'u ma na djuno lo du'u xukau cumki falonu jai gau ambigu be na
08:04 < gleki> i ja'o na da djuno
08:04 < gleki> i ku'i bo no da lanli
08:04 < gleki> *ki'u bo
08:04 < selpahi> xu do tavla fi lo nu mixre sa'e
08:04 < selpahi> .i li'a CKTJ na .ambigu
08:06 < selpahi> .i mi klatcu lo zarci .i .erve lo voi mi ki pilno lo ka jukpa lo vacysai pe lo cabdei
08:06 < gleki> mixre ie
08:07  * selpahi de'a
08:07 < gleki> lo gerna po'o gentufa na kakne vau ju'o
08:07 < gleki> exp: mi djuno lo du mo
08:07 < mensi> (mi [CU {djuno <lo (¹du mo¹) KU> VAU}])
08:07 < gleki> exp: mi djuno lo du'u mo
08:07 < mensi> (mi [CU {djuno <lo (¹du'u [CU {mo VAU}] KEI¹) KU> VAU}])
08:08 < durka42> lu du mo li'u tanru .u'i
08:08 < gleki> ie ie
08:08 < gleki> to ei catra zo po'o toi
08:09 < durka42> CKTJ na .ambigu .i ku'i da poi se cusku zo'u lo du xukau da mifra fi CKJT cu .ambigu
08:10 < gleki> ie ie
08:11 < durka42> sarcu fa lo nu smadi fi'o ve jinvi lo du ma cusku .i na'e lojbo sidbo
08:11 < durka42> sarcu fa lo nu smadi fi'o ve jinvi lo du makau cusku .i na'e lojbo sidbo
09:17 < Ilmen> coi
09:19 < Ilmen> doi la selpa'i zo ganlo joi zo kalri zo'u co'e la'e ti → https://framenet2.icsi.berkeley.edu/fnReports/data/frameIndex.xml?frame=Openness
09:19 < Ilmen> .i za'a jinvi lo nu ganlo fa lo vrogai
09:19 < Ilmen> to li'a na bilgygau lo nu lo jbobau cu panra toi
09:20 < Ilmen> to ku'i mi je'a caucni lo tadji be loka jungau lonu makau pagre fanta toi
09:43 < gleki> mi zukte ma pe lo xe fanva be la'e la alis i xu vimcu ro zo sei
09:44 < gleki> i so'oroiku co'a na gendra i simsa lu fa lu coi do li'u se cusku abu fa lu e lo drata li'u li'u
09:44 < Ilmen> ka'e basygau zo to'i .i ku'i mi da'i na basygau fi zo sei fe su'o da
09:45 < Ilmen> .i je'u ku'i mi se cizra lo nu tai pilno zo sei fau lo nu na pilno zo sa'a
09:45 < gleki> i zo sei na mutce vlipa vau pe'i
09:46 < Ilmen> .i selja'e lo nu na cumki fa lo nu na'e .ambigu sitnysku lo selpau be zo sei
09:46 < gleki> i coi do sei cusku ba fa la alis se'u e lo drata
09:46 < gleki> i xu di'u pluka
09:46 < gleki> i mi na djuno
09:46 < gleki> *i coi do sei cusku be fa la alis se'u e lo drata
09:46 < Ilmen> sa'u panra ru'e zo lo
09:47 < gleki> i ji'a mi na djuno lo jeu la everson cu nelci lo simsa
09:47 < gleki> *jei
09:48 < gleki> i la'a mi ba ca'o pilno zo lu enai zo sei
09:48 < Ilmen> zo to'i pei
09:48 < Ilmen> .i xu no da su'o de selsaumau
09:49 < gleki> en: to'i
09:49 < mensi> to'i = [TO] open editorial unquote (within a quote); contains grammatical text; mark with editorial insert. |>>>
09:49 < mensi> officialdata
09:49 < Ilmen> to'i = to sa'a
09:50 < gleki> ta'i ma gau sinxa lo nu lo se sitsku cu mulno
09:50 < Ilmen> zo li'u pei
09:50 < selpahi> zo sei vlipymau zo lu ki'u lo nu na sarcu fa lo nu lo gendra ja mulno jufra bo pagbu cu lidne
09:50 < gleki> i coi la ilmen i coi do to'i la alis cu cusku toi mi viska do i xu do jimpe doi la ilmen 
09:50 < selpahi> .i lu mi je sei ko'a cusku do ba klama li'u
09:50 < gleki> i coi la ilmen [ i coi do to'i la alis cu cusku toi mi viska do]  i xu do jimpe doi la ilmen 
09:50 < selpahi> .i lu mi je li'u se cusku ko'a .i lu do ba klama li'u
09:51 < Ilmen> zo to'i ta'e pagbu lo zo lu sumti
09:51 < Ilmen> doi la gleki
09:51 < gleki> ua je'e
09:51 < gleki> i ku'i ta'i ma sitsku zo to'i u'i
09:51 < gleki> i ei me'oi escape
09:51 < selpahi> zo to'i zo'u pe'i sa'u na pagbu lo prosa ja cfika .i notci co cmeta
09:52 < gleki> i ji'a ta'i ma sitsku zo sei
09:52 < selpahi> lu sei sa'a nai li'u
09:52 < Ilmen> .oi ru'e
09:52 < gleki> zo'oi \ e'u zo'o
09:53 < selpahi> pe'i no xagmau be zo sei ca zasti
09:53 < selpahi> .i na prane .i ku'i no da pranymau
09:54 < selpahi> .i ju'o lo nu vimcu fi la .alis. cu palcau
09:54 < selpahi> .i da'i do stika lo cukta .i ba bo lo naljbo poi .erve cu zgana da poi je lojbo
09:55 < selpahi> sisi je'u na fadni lojbo
09:55 < selpahi> .i no'e sidju
09:55 < selpahi> .i li'a do djica lo nu do sidju la .everson. .i ku'i ri djica lo cizra
09:56 < gleki> ma fadni lojbo i ma ca pilno zo sei lo ka sitsku
10:09 < zipcpi> If anyone cares I also finished the reprise for the song translation :p
10:25 < keidji> zipcpi: is this published somewhere?
10:26 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Do_you_hear_the_people_sing
10:26 < ldlework> coi ky. je zy.
10:26 < zipcpi> I'm not sure I'm {certu} enough to sing it though T.T
10:27 < zipcpi> coi cy
10:28 < zipcpi> I'm actually still not sure as to how Lojban resolves scope
10:29 < zipcpi> {ro prenu cu prami da}
10:30 < zipcpi> I've seen la selpahi's writings on it but I'm not sure I understand fully. And it seems that the only current way to make sure your scope is correct in certain cases, is to use either prenexes, or move around the sumti
10:30 < zipcpi> Which might not be always desirable
10:30 < gleki> => ro de poi prenu cu prami da
10:31 < zipcpi> (there is one person, whom all people love?)
10:32 < zipcpi> Or is it the other one...
10:32 < durka42> scope is left to right
10:32 < durka42> ro prenu cu prami da — for all people there is a person...
10:32 < zipcpi> da se prami ro prenu - for one person there is all people?
10:32 < durka42> yes
10:33 < Ilmen> *for at least one person
10:33 < zipcpi> Right
10:34 < Ilmen> ro da na ku ka'e prane ---> roldza fa loka jitfa fa lo du'u cumki fa lo nu ce'u prane
10:34 < Ilmen> (scope expands as nested bridis)
10:35 < Ilmen> na ku ka'e ku ro da prane --->  jitfa fa lodu'u cumki fa lonu roldza fa loka ce'u prane
10:35 < Ilmen> etc
10:35 < Ilmen> ta'o co'o
10:35 < zipcpi> co'o
10:35 < durka42> co'o bridizmo
10:36 < durka42> *bridyzmo
10:37 < zipcpi> coi durkavore noi balrai lo ka camselci'i mi ku'o zo'o
10:37 < selpahi> "Scope is the heart of Lojban" --unknown author
10:37 < zipcpi> coi selpa'i
10:38 < selpahi> coi do
10:39 < zipcpi> mi puzi mo'u fanva lo ke'uzgi sagypemci be la'au <xu do tirna lo nu sanga> li'u
10:39 < selpahi> je'e
10:39 < selpahi> .i ta'o lo drata pu pilno zo stribilo je zo pempau
10:40 < zipcpi> x1 is a refrain, burden of song x2
10:40 < zipcpi> .y. oi
10:40 < zipcpi> zo'oi burden mo
10:40 < selpahi> stribilo zo'o
10:40 < gleki> lo si'o kuspe cu risna lo jbobau
10:40 < durka42> .w burden
10:40 < phenny> burden — noun: 1. A heavy load, 2. A responsibility, onus — verb: 1. (trans.) To encumber with a burden (in any of the noun senses of the word), 2. To impose, as a load or burden; to lay or place as a burden (something heavy or objectionable)
10:41 < durka42> 2 (the burden) the main theme or gist of a speech, book, or argument: the burden of his views.
10:41 < durka42> • the refrain or chorus of a song.
10:41 < gleki> zei:mi puzi mo'u fanva lo ke'uzgi sagypemci
10:41 < mensi> mi pu zi mo'u fanva lo krefu zei zgike sanga zei pemci
10:41 < selpahi> .i ta'o lo nu mi'o pu casnu lo jbogu'e selsa'a zo'u mi di'a morji fe http://piratepad.net/Caak0MiKzR
10:41 < selpahi> .i su'o mi'a pu jajgau lo sidbo
10:41 < selpahi> pe lo cnino
10:41 < durka42> oi lo zo zei zei staile cu jai nandu lo tcidu
10:41 < gleki> en: stribilo
10:41 < mensi> stribilo = x1 is a refrain, burden of song x2 |>>> glekizmiku
10:41 < gleki> finti gi'enai pilno
10:42 < selpahi> mi pilno
10:42 < selpahi> .i so'o drata cu go'i
10:42 < gleki> zo stribilo xu
10:42 < selpahi> ie
10:42 < gleki> da finti ije na'e da pilno
10:45 < zipcpi> zo stribilo cu claxu la'o gy <gloss word> gy
10:45 < gleki> durka42: rather "for each person". "all" is mabla pe'i
10:46 < durka42> mi jmina zo'oi "refrain"
10:46 < gleki> ie la glekizmiku punoroi jmina lo gloso valsi
10:47 < durka42> http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~aburka/tmp/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-29%20at%201.47.14%20PM.png
10:47 < durka42> uo
10:48 < zipcpi> Er how
10:49 < zipcpi> I just added gloss words
10:49 < durka42> r-r-r-RACE CONDITIONNNN
10:49 < zipcpi> u'i
10:50 < durka42> now {stribilo} has two gloss words
10:50 < zipcpi> Four actually :p
10:50 < zipcpi> I added three
10:50 < selpahi> Shall we have  next mumble session on our virtual island?
10:50 < selpahi> the next *
10:50 < selpahi> stupid keyboard
10:50 < durka42> mmyes
10:51 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/xy'y
10:51 < durka42> camxes: xy'y
10:51 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ], [0123456789], [lL], [mM], [nN] or [rR] but "x" found.
10:51 < zipcpi> Yeah new subsub-selma'o now
10:51 < zipcpi> Awr
10:51 < durka42> camxes: +exp xy'y
10:51 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,], [.\t\n\r?! ], [0123456789], [mM], [nN] or [rR] but "x" found.
10:51 < durka42> uhhh
10:51 < durka42> oh
10:52 < durka42> camxes: zo xy'y
10:52 < camxes> ([zo xy'y] VAU)
10:52 < zipcpi> Oh right
10:52 < zipcpi> Yeah if it sees any unfamiliar cmavo not protected by zo it will throw up
10:52 < durka42> I always forget that you can't do unfamiliar cmavo the way you can do unfamiliar brivla
10:52 < zipcpi> Cause it doesn't know what selma'o it is
10:52 < durka42> YACC is much more forgiving :p
10:52 < durka42> yacc: asdfasdf
10:52 < mensi> (asdfasdf /FA'O/)
10:52 < selpahi> There is really no point in having subselma'o, since they don't affect the parsing and are often arbitrary groupings
10:52 < zipcpi> That's not a cmavo
10:53 < zipcpi> It's useful for learning, pe'i
10:53 < durka42> YACC doesn't know word shapes, assumes anything unrecognizable is UI :)
10:53 < durka42> yacc: brivo adfasdf pei
10:53 < selpahi> yacc: Lojban, do you speak it
10:54 < durka42> …
10:54 < durka42> si'au mrobi'o
10:55 < durka42> oh I guess it assumed asdfasdf was a name
10:55 < zipcpi> I find it subselma'o especially helpful when reviewing UI and FAhA. Kinda hate that which selma'o are sumtcita isn't obvious though
10:55 < durka42> my bad
10:55 < zipcpi> Now that sumtcita are all part of the same {jetnyselma'o}
10:55 < durka42> imagine if the tags weren't unified and each sumtcita selma'o had subtly different rules!
10:55 < selpahi> Yes I agree that those groupings are helpful, but they have nothing to do with grammar.
10:56 < selpahi> durka42: You're crazy :)
10:56 < zipcpi> {jetselma'o}
10:56 < gleki> yacc: mi mo
10:56 < mensi> (mi {mo VAU})
10:56 < durka42> yacc: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa pei
10:56 < mensi> ({aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa pei} /FA'O/)
10:56 < zipcpi> I don't know what subtly different rules they used to have :p
10:56 < zipcpi> Don't remember
10:57 < gleki> one should create a TAG replacement for {po'o}
10:57 < selpahi> I like how you just say "used to have"
10:57 < zipcpi> What... is the merge only implemented in the exp parser?
10:58 < zipcpi> And you know me. I'm la bauspo fazykamni after all. Talking as if every half-baked proposal is official :p
10:58 < durka42> camxes: co'a pu
10:58 < camxes> ([{co'a KU} {pu KU}] VAU)
10:58 < durka42> camxes: +exp co'a pu
10:58 < camxes> ([{co'a pu} KU] VAU)
10:59 < zipcpi> ua
10:59 < zipcpi> Well... I'm not gonna learn the old rules now :p
10:59 < durka42> yeah I don't know them either :p
11:02 < zipcpi> I wonder if the old parser would throw up when I try to connect ZAhO with TAhE
11:02 < gleki> jb:za'o
11:02 < mensi> za'o = za'o [preposition of aspect] — lasting after the expected end (superfective
11:02 < mensi> aspect)
11:02 < mensi> :mi pu za'o citka lo titla ba lo nu mi mo'u citka lo mi sanmi — I kept eating candies after my meal was over.
11:02 < gleki> jb:ta'e
11:02 < mensi> ta'e = ta'e [preposition of aspect] — habitually (habitual aspect)
11:02 < mensi> :mi ta'e citka lo plise — I used to eat apples.
11:02 < mensi> :lo verba ta'e ze'i co'a tatpi — Children tend to quickly get tired.
11:02 < gleki> xm
11:02 < gleki> looks like a merged them
11:03 < durka42> camxes: ta'e za'o
11:03 < camxes> ([{ta'e za'o} KU] VAU)
11:03 < durka42> camxes: za'o ta'e
11:03 < camxes> ([{za'o ta'e} KU] VAU)
11:04 < zipcpi> But yeah I'm calling UI1b "naturalistic interjections" because their form is strongly influenced by natural human tendencies; and though they are something like attitudinals, they don't represent a continuum
11:05 < zipcpi> Also moved some old experimental cmavo to it
11:05 < zipcpi> Including {bu'a'a}
11:05 < selpahi> Here's a 3-year old article about subselma'o http://selpahi.weebly.com/archive-pre-2014/selmao-and-sub-selmao-number-mnemonics
11:05 < zipcpi> Yeah
11:06 < zipcpi> I've seen
11:06 < zipcpi> I wish there would be one that just listed all the sumtcita "selma'o" though :p
11:06 < zipcpi> Well ROI is an oddball
11:06 < zipcpi> Because it acts almost like all the other sumtcita, except it has to accept a number first
11:09 < zipcpi> selpahi: I'm curious, what is the equivalent, if any, of attitudinals in Toaq Dzu
11:10 < selpahi> Well there are interjections in Toaq Dzu, but there are also adverbs
11:10 < zipcpi> Interesting
11:13 < gleki> lo vlaste cu xo'i bu'u ma
11:13 < selpahi> lo pruxi munje
11:14 < selpahi> .i lo nu ro da poi smuni zo'u lo ka jdice lo du'u ma kau valsi tarmi da cu nandu gi'e se ditcu lo barda .i lo nu cunso cuxna na menre lo te cuxna pe mi
11:18 < selpahi> .i lo ka ro da poi smuni zo'u ce'u jdice lo du'u ma kau valsi be da tarmi cu nandu
11:20 < gleki> oi lojbau si lujbau
11:20 < zipcpi> u'i
11:20 < zipcpi> mi ca se bangu la .lujban.
11:20 < zipcpi> zo'o
11:21 < zipcpi> xu ri me lo itku'ile i'au zo'o
11:39 < zipcpi> xy'y
11:39 < zipcpi> Even though I like {ta'oi} as a concept, it would have to be a "magic selma'o" that may be very hard or impossible to implement
11:41  * nuzba @voxelcomposer: If I'm honest, the most difficult programming language by FAR is Lojban.    Human instruction in code? Easy.    Code for human existence? NP-hard. [http://bit.ly/1BuJoB2]
11:54 < zipcpi> u'i
12:23 < zipcpi> I actually wonder if I should also assign {xa'a} to laughter. Seems to be quite common in la korpora zei sisku
12:31 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/dutso oi
12:31 < zipcpi> This could actually be useful, but... oi
12:38 < zahlman> heh
12:39 < zahlman> reminds me of, iirc, a thought experiment posited by asimov
12:43 < gleki> en:dutso
12:44 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
13:12 <@xalbo> Yes, {dutso} would be useful, but I wish someone would shorten the definition.
13:13 < gleki> here you are
13:13 < gleki> dutso = to'e zunca
13:25 < b_jonas> gleki: yeah, and define zunca = to'e dutso too
13:25 < b_jonas> I love those dictionaries
13:26 < b_jonas> MÉK has a useless circular definition for “megágyaz” and “beágyaz”, in both the older and current edition (they publish a new one like every 40 years or so), despite that it would be easy to give a real definition
13:32  * nuzba @Pisscress: I'd like to learn Lojban too but I'm too lazy to. [http://bit.ly/1KtQ3Aq]
14:28 < ldlework> word for everyone but the speaker and the audience?
14:34 < ldlework> is there a tag version of bu'u?
14:34 < ldlework> can I use bu'u as a tag?
14:47 < selpahi> {bu'u} is a tag.
14:47 < ldlework> thanks
14:47 < selpahi> {bu'u lo zarci} "at the market"
14:47 < ldlework> I taught a coworker a substantial amount of lojban today
14:48 < ldlework> Like, including tags, abstractions, and relative phrases, in addition to the core grammar up to FA and SE
14:48 < ldlework> in just a few hours
14:48 < ldlework> they are already talking at me, using abstractions and tags
14:48 < Ilmen> ŭa
14:48 < ldlework> it still amazes me each time
14:48 < Ilmen> zanza'a
14:48 < ldlework> the swiftness
14:48 < selpahi> le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le le v
14:49 < ldlework> Yes, I taught them le
14:49 < selpahi> It's an inside joke.
14:50 < selpahi> vreji, the log bot, just quit.
14:50 < selpahi> So I won't be recorded saying {le}
14:51 < selpahi> xajmi .i ie xajmi
14:51 < Ilmen> na'a na'a na'a na'a na'a na'a
14:51 < ldlework> selpahi: heh
14:54 < Ilmen> ta'o doi la cadgu'a .i do pu te cmene fi zo bripre fe lo zirpu prenu pixre pe lo jbogu'e vau ĭe nai pei
14:54 < Ilmen> *pixra
14:55 < Ilmen> .i mi pu no roi sanji lo nu la'a lo zirpu bo remna jo'u kubli pixra cu metfora lo bridi stura
14:56 < Ilmen> .u'a .i zo .u'a ju'o selsku mi
14:57 < Ilmen> ni'o co'o ro do
15:00 < ldlework> I have no idea what you said Ilment
15:00 < ldlework> Something about disagreeing that the bripre's name is la bripre?
15:05 < selpahi> ue la .ilmen. na pu sanji
15:06 < gocti> ldlework: < niftg> mi nu'o jimpe lo du'u ta'i makau vitke la jbogu'e la remoi nunji'e
15:06 < gocti> sei bu'u la jbosnu cu cusku .i je .ai mi sipnybi
15:06 < selpahi> nicte zei co'o
15:07 < gocti> co'o
15:07 < selpahi> ie .i .ei finti lo uitki papri pe la jbogu'e
15:10 < selpahi> niftg: xu do jundi
15:11 < selpahi> xu lo do sazycimde cu glico ia cu'i
15:12 < selpahi> va'o ro da na lojbo .i ja'o la jbosnu na mapti lo ka ciksi
15:14 < selpahi> ko zukte la'e di'e .i edit -> preferences -> grids (to bu'u lo zunle toi) -> create -> login URL: http://sim.ldlework.com:9000/
15:14 < selpahi> .i ku'i do nitcu lo ka se jaspu
15:14 < selpahi> .i la cadgu'a ku po'o ka'e gasnu
15:15 < selpahi> (to platform: opensim toi)
15:17 < niftg>  re'i mi'e niftyg
15:17 < selpahi> za'a .u'i
15:19 < niftg> ja'o ju'ocu'i le catni ke sazri samtci pe la remoi nunji'e na se pilno
15:19 < selpahi> pilno la'o gy. Singularity Viewer .gy
15:20 < niftg> vi'o
15:20 < selpahi> http://www.singularityviewer.org/downloads
15:21 < selpahi> mi pu zi cpedu fi la cadgu'a fe lo ka finti lo do jaspu .i do nitcu lo ka jdice lo du'u ma kau cmene do kei je lo du'u ma kau ckikyvla
15:21 < selpahi> je'e pei
15:22 < niftg> .ua ju'ocu'i lo catni jaspu pe la 2moi nunji'e na se pilno
15:22 < selpahi> go'i
15:22 < selpahi> .i sivni munje
15:22 < niftg> je'e
15:23 < ldlework> mi ba zi cliva .i ma jaspo
15:24 < selpahi> zoi gy. niftg .gy la'a
15:24 < niftg> .eipei ciska bu'u ti
15:24 < selpahi> .ei nai
15:24 < selpahi> .i ko sivni jungau la'oi ldlework
15:24 < ldlework> zo gy. niftg gy. drani jbocme
15:24 < ldlework> xu
15:24 < niftg> .ua .i ai sivni irci
15:24 < selpahi> no'e drani .i zo .niftyg. drani
15:25 < niftg> ta'o zo'oi niftg na jbocme
15:25 < selpahi> go'i
15:25 < ldlework> zmanei lo jbocme
15:25 < selpahi> ja'o zo .niftyg.
15:25 < selpahi> i .ei ny. jdice
15:26 < ldlework> ka'enai zo .
15:26 < selpahi> "la niftyg"
15:26 < ldlework> :(
15:26 < ldlework> k
15:27 < ldlework> Sorry account creation is so manual, hopefully we can improve it in the future
15:28 < selpahi> .u'u lo nu jaspu finti cu tai macnu .i .a'o ca lo balvi cu snada lo ka xagzengau
15:29 < ldlework> xu la .niftg. na glico
15:29 < ldlework> cu^
15:29 < selpahi> ponjo
15:29 < ldlework> ua
15:30 < ldlework> ui sai
15:30 < selpahi> ui
15:34 < niftg> za'a zo jbogu cu cmene .i drani xu
15:34 < selpahi> cmene ma
15:35 < niftg> la jbogu'e
15:35 < selpahi> ue
15:36 < niftg> .uinai lo nu me'oi login na se snada
15:37 < selpahi> xu do zukte lo se ciksi pe mi
15:37 < niftg> .ia
15:39 < selpahi> Name: la niftyg Password: [lo do ckikyvla] Grid: the lost continent of  hippo
15:39 < selpahi> xu dunli lo me do moi
15:42 < niftg> lo jaspu cmene zo'u pu claxu zo la (to ku'i mi troci tu'a ji'a zo la) .i la'oi grid zo'u lu la jbogu li'u cu se cuxna pu
15:42 < selpahi> cizra fa tu'a zo jbogu
15:43 < niftg> .ui snada
15:43 < selpahi> ue
15:43 < selpahi> ua ie
15:43 < niftg> za'a lo mi jaspu cmene ku po'o cu toldra
15:45 < niftg> klama lo mokca fu lo mokca
15:46 < selpahi> do nenri lo xamsi
15:46 < niftg> .ue ti xamsi nenri
15:47 < selpahi> go'i .i ji'a do se xadni no da .i do pruxi
15:47 < niftg> en: mubru
15:47 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
15:47 < niftg> en: bumru
15:47 < mensi> bumru = x1 is foggy/misty/covered by a fog/mist/vapor of liquid x2. |>>> See also djacu, carvi, danmo, lunsa, tcima,
15:47 < mensi> gapci. |>>> officialdata
15:52 < niftg> za'a ba'anai mi bumru
15:53 < selpahi> ue do ca se xadni
15:54 < niftg> .ua .i ta'o mi troci co catra pe'a lo sazycimde tezu'e lo nu za'ure'u akti
15:55 < niftg> .uo catra
15:55 < selpahi> je'e
16:15 < VladVP> coi
16:15 < VladVP> I have a question
16:16 < VladVP> since python seeks to serve as a tool to describe the world in terms of formal logic
16:16 < VladVP> is there a gismu, or similiar construct, that represents the domain of discourse?
16:58 < ldlework> how do you put a url into a sumti?
17:01 < selpahi> Quote it with zoi
17:01 < selpahi> or treat it as a lerfu string, in which case it's already a sumti
17:02 < selpahi> .ei mi sipna
17:06 < niftg> .ua da preti fi la vlad .i mi jimpe masno
17:44 < niftg> mi za'u re'u pruxi simlu
17:46 < ldlework> What's the most succinct construction of "this weekend" as in the one comming up
17:50 < niftg> .ua mi pu'o bartu la jbogu gi'eseri'abo se kavbu pe'a
17:51 < durka42> lo jefyfa'o pamoi'o :p
17:52 < ldlework> durka42: I argue, in the default context or zero context or whatever, the easiest way is "le jefyfa'o", but thanks that's what I was wondering
17:52 < durka42> I'm not sure anyone else like {moi'o} but I do
17:52  * ldlework reads about it
17:52 < ldlework> ua
17:52 < durka42> with no context at all though, isn't there a 50% chance you're talking about last weekend, in the "that party was cra-zay" sense?
17:53 < ldlework> yep
17:53 < ldlework> but you filtered all weekends but two
17:53 < ldlework> and then the actual content of the message will likely filter it further
17:53 < ldlework> its not perfect
17:53 < durka42> sure I guess when a specific weekend is in question then next and last are the most likely
17:53 < durka42> not sure which comes first
17:53 < durka42> of course "that weekend three years ago when my cat died" is also in the running
17:53 < durka42> but not with zero context :p
17:54 < ldlework> yeah and usually you are relativizing
17:54 < ldlework> its all about balancing our own brevity with helping our listener get to where we are
17:54 < ldlework> but you already know that
17:54 < durka42> ie
17:59 < ldlework>  moi'o is awesome
18:01 < ldlework> I'm not sure I quite understand how its place structure works though
18:01 < ldlework> is x1 where you put the number?
18:01 < durka42> no x1 is the thing
18:02 < durka42> the number is just kinda attached
18:02 < durka42> it's a MOI after all
18:02 < ldlework> that's strange
18:02 < durka42> en:moi'o
18:02 < mensi> moi'o = [MOI] x1 is the PA-th date/time of unit x2 (si'o) counting from x3 (default: now) by calendar
18:02 < mensi> x4
18:02 < durka42> so like...
18:03 < ldlework> I get that x1 is the target of the description
18:03 < durka42> le jefyfa'o cu pa moi'o lo si'o jefyfa'o kei tu'a nau ku lo fadni
18:03 < ldlework> I see
18:03 < durka42> okay that x4 is a cop out :)
18:03 < ldlework> it seems strange to use pa as a selbri modifier
18:04 < ldlework> I usually teach that something like pa moi'o would be marked as <pa <moi'o>>
18:04 < durka42> it's the same as pamoi/pamei/pamai
18:04 < ldlework> well I guess the same for those then :)
18:04 < durka42> ie milxe co ci'izra
22:06 < gleki> oh, {moi'o} i clean forgot about it.
22:07 < gleki> zipcpi's patches to the language made it not so pretty
22:17  * nuzba @wgx: xu do se glibau/jbobau http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#Common_phrases [http://bit.ly/1FT1AJO]
22:20 < gleki> heh
22:23 < noncomcinse> coi
22:24 < gleki> ue coi
22:40 < gleki> "3", on an analog clock face, is clockwise from "0"/"12"/"C"/"10" on the 
22:40 < gleki> same clock face, along a circle that is concentric with and parallel to the
22:40 < gleki> clock face, as seen by an observer.
23:06 < skapata> .help
23:06 < skapata> !help
23:07 < gleki> re'i
23:07 < skapata> .re'i
23:07 < skapata> !re'i
23:08 < gleki> вщ вошсф ьф
23:08 < gleki> do djica ma
23:09 < gleki> Hola! / Saluton! / Hi!
23:09 < skapata> eo gasnu
23:09 < skapata> eo: gasnu
23:09 < mensi> gasnu = x1 [homo/aganto] estas aganta kauzo de okazo x2; x1 faras/okazigas/ekektivigas x2-on |>>> Vidu ankaŭ cmavo gau,
23:09 < mensi> gunka, zukte, rinka, fasnu por neagentaj okazoj, jibri, kakne, pilno. |>>> xorxes
23:10 < Vadzim> gleki: забыл "привет" =)
23:10 < gleki> skapata: ankau vi povas uzi http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/eo/index.html
23:11 < skapata> dankon
23:11 < gleki> la skapata cu irci lo spano e lo spero e lo lojbo i seki'u bo mi pu rinsa co spano je spero
23:14 < gleki> versxajne estas necesa traduki cmavo en Esperanton.
23:15 < noncomcinse> ua sai la .sutsis. fanva fo su'o da
23:15 < noncomcinse> .i pu na djuno ki'e .i cinri
23:16 < gleki> ie gau mi fa po'o lo pilno be la fircku pu djuno
23:17 < gleki> i ku'i mi co'a te cmene fi zo sutysisku enai zo sutsis
23:18 < gleki> May 15. In today's update to la sutysisku:
23:18 < gleki> 1. You can enter several words to get their definitions
23:18 < gleki> 2. various fixes to how lujvo are split and displayed
23:18 < gleki> May 12. In this update to English Sutysisku some new features are added:
23:18 < gleki> 1. Now clickable classes of particles are shown. You can display all the particles from a given class: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/beta.html…
23:18 < gleki> 2. advanced users can go to the original entries in the live dictionary (jbovlaste) by pressing "#" in the right part of the definition
23:18 < gleki> 3. terminators are shown for particles: http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/beta.html…
23:18 < gleki> 4. Desktop Firefox will now suggest adding English Sutysisku as a search engine.
23:18 < gleki> 5. A new snowflake icon of the app (definitely the most important change, xo'o)
23:19 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/beta.html#sisku/UI1
23:19 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/beta.html#sisku/nu
23:19 < gleki> (links got broken in the previous lines)
23:20 < noncomcinse> The selma'o thing js awesome.
23:21 < gleki> it's actually just why vlasisku was great 
23:21 < gleki> all major features of vlasisku are now in sutysisku
23:22 < noncomcinse> Whooo
23:23 < skapata> Can knowledge about logic, lambda calculus, functional programing etc. help learning lojban?
23:23 < noncomcinse> skapata: Pretty much every sentence is a lambda (sorta?)
23:24 < noncomcinse> logic, yeah
23:24 < noncomcinse> If you can keep track of the construct tree, all the more power to ya.
23:24 < skapata> thank you
23:25 < gleki> mukti and i decided that JVS 2.0 wont be developed. instead an API for the current JVS and additions to the db model should be implemented. others people would be able to develop third party instruments to operate JVS db thru such API
23:26 < gleki> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/fancu_staile
23:26 < gleki> [ This is an attempt to use lojban as a functional programming language. ]
23:26 < noncomcinse> .i do'o zbasu la'oi . JVSAPI . xu
23:26 < gleki> na'e bo mi
23:26 < gleki> i nu'o zbasu
23:27 < gleki> i a'o la mukti ba co'a zbasu
23:27 < gleki> i ku'i so'a da zukcfu
23:27 < gleki> ta'oi fe lo na'e lojbo
23:29 < noncomcinse> jehe
23:33  * nuzba @autobite: @Elurchin @pissGoblin 1. what an amatuer 2. it's a constructed language like esperanto, lojban, klingon, or whatever [http://bit.ly/1KuoTcR]
--- Day changed Sat May 30 2015
00:03 < skapata> lo cinri skina
00:05 < skapata> lo skina cinri mi
00:05 < gleki> lo skina cu cinri do
00:06 < skapata> mi se cinri lo skina
00:07 < gleki> je'e
00:09 < skapata> lo skina cu cinri mi
00:13 < skapata> does lojban has precedence order?
00:14 < gleki> what is that?
00:15 < gleki> like this? :) http://en.cppreference.com/w/c/language/operator_precedence
00:15 < skapata> how can I know which word modifies which word?
00:15 < skapata> yes
00:16 < gleki> brivla when stringed together modify those to the right:
00:16 < gleki> bajra - to run
00:16 < gleki> sutra bajra - to quickly run
00:16 < gleki> {sutra bajra} is called "tanru", i.e. a compound verb
00:17 < gleki> English also has compound verbs, e.g. "drip fry"
00:18 < gleki> any other questions on precedence for other constructs?
00:19 < skapata> no, thank you
00:23 < zahlman> coi la skapatas
00:23 < zahlman> but yes, 'which word modifies which' follows strict rules in lojban
00:24 < zahlman> 'how the modification works', otoh, is up to interpretation, to at least some extent.
00:25 < gleki> idk, in proglangs precedence is more like in math
00:26 < zahlman> well yeah, but it follows rules
00:26 < zahlman> like, there's natlangs, and then there's {proglangs, math, conlangs}
00:29 < gleki> i can't remember any precedence except in tanru. where else can we find it?
00:29 < gocti> [[ti je ta] je tu]
00:29 < gleki> ua je'e
00:30 < gleki> i cinri fa lonu simsa lo si'o kuspe
00:30 < gleki> i ku'i lo se kuspe cu frica
00:36 < skapata> ki'e
00:36 < skapata> co'o
00:39 < zahlman> I think there are lot of examples  like gocti gave, where precedence nominally exists, but is inconsequential unless you're trying to write a parser
00:40 < gocti> It does become important when e.g. you change that second {je} to some other connective
00:40 < gleki> parsers use brackets both for scope and precedence
00:41 < zahlman> true
00:41 < zahlman> well
00:41 < zahlman> they use brackets to describe the structure of the parse tree they built in plaintext
00:42 < gleki> exp:ti je ta je tu
00:42 < mensi> ([ti {je ta} {je tu}] VAU)
00:43 < gleki> ^ this actually should show that ti,ta,tu are at the same level but at the same time they have precedence. currenty it looks like {je ta} is inside {ti}
00:43 < gleki> the point is that it needs to be somehow explained in what sense it is "inside"
00:44 < zahlman> true
00:44 < gocti> cipr: ti je ta je tu (to .u'u toi)
00:44 < cipr> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "(" found.
00:44 < gleki> either within scope, inside a clause or in precedence
00:44 < gocti> cipr: ti je ta je tu to .u'u toi
00:44 < cipr> ([FA {<ti je ta> je <tu (¹[to u'u] VAU toi¹)>}] VAU)
00:44 < gocti> ku'i za'o djuno no da pe lo si'o sko'opu .i .ai ba djuno
00:45 < zahlman> (heh, what bracketing would you use to make the parenthetical {u'u} apply to the entire group?)
00:45 < gleki> cipr: ti je ta je tu vu'u to .u'u toi
00:45 < cipr> SyntaxError: Expected ['h] but "i" found.
00:45 < gleki> cipr: ti je ta je tu vu'o to .u'u toi
00:45 < cipr> ([FA {<(¹ti je ta¹) je tu> <vu'o (¹[to u'u] VAU toi¹)>}] VAU)
00:46 < gocti> probably a two-line display, or a rewrite of visual camxes
00:46 < gleki> im not sure how we can distinguish scope/precedence within the tree. using different brackets?
00:46 < gocti> and add a thrid line for quantifier scope
00:46 < gleki> hm, actually three types of brackets
00:47 < gleki> ie doi l gocti
00:50 < gocti> watwatwat
00:50 < gocti> oh
00:50 < gleki> 00:44 < gleki> either within scope, inside a clause or in precedence
00:51 < gocti> pinka zoi ga Ping timeout: 65,535 years ga
00:51  * zahlman cu nelci lo nuncliva pinka
00:51 < gocti> noi la'a sa'u macnu se ciska
00:51 < zahlman> li'a macnu
00:53 < gleki> jb:macnu
00:53 < mensi> macnu = macnu — x1(entity)  is manual in function  x2(property of x1)
00:53 < mensi> :lo macnu — manual. lo se macnu — function done manually.
00:53 < mensi> :lo vi karce cu macnu lo ka gau cenba lo ka sutra — The speed of this car is changed manually.
00:53 < mensi> :Related words: zmiku, jitro
00:54 < gocti> jbo: macnu
00:54 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
00:54 < gocti> en: macnu
00:54 < mensi> macnu = x1 (event/action/process) is manual [not automatic] in function x2 under conditions x3. |>>> See also zmiku,
00:54 < mensi> jitro. |>>> officialdata
00:54 < gocti> lo me la bangu moi cu li'a zanmau
00:54 < gleki> satci sa'u zmadu
00:54 < gleki> i te sumti klesi ciksi
00:56 < zahlman> lo da'i te macnu ki'a
00:57 < gocti> va'o zei sumti
00:58 < zahlman> pe'i tolmle .i zo va'o e'u
00:58 < zahlman> ra'oi bai iu
00:59 < zahlman> y
00:59 < zahlman> sa'ai ma'oi
01:00 < gocti> ra'u lo va'o zei sumti cu jai canci lo cabna nu pilno
01:01 < zahlman> i'e
01:05 < gleki> mi na vimcu i ku'i mi curmi lo nu rarna canci
01:06 < gleki> to zo permite va'o na mapti toi
01:14 < zahlman> u'i ie do no'e jatna
01:19 < Ilmen> COI
01:19 < Ilmen> si coi
01:20 < gleki> sei cmavo be ma'oi coi
01:26  * nuzba @hackernewsfire: Lojban http://ift.tt/1ur3dZp [http://bit.ly/1BvZNoT]
01:26  * nuzba @uitki: proga:LMW - Lojbanic MediaWiki - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/proga:LMW_-_Lojbanic_MediaWiki by Gleki [http://bit.ly/1HUh0Ql]
01:26  * nuzba @developerhcnews: Lojban http://bit.ly/1HYSLO9 [http://bit.ly/1HUh42C]
01:26 < zahlman> coi lo co'u cladu zo'o
01:30  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: 1 – Lojban - http://goo.gl/5PXz4k [http://bit.ly/1Bw04bh]
01:30  * nuzba @offeryour: 1 – Lojban - http://goo.gl/gVhNti #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1HUhndM]
01:31 < gleki> here we go. hacker news posted and everyone follows them
01:31 < gleki> domino effect
01:32 < gleki> exp:domino fasnu
01:32 < mensi> ([do mi {no BOI} fasnu KU] VAU)
01:38 < Steffmeistro> coi
01:38 < gleki> mi de'a jundi
01:40 < Ilmen> coi la ctefa'o
01:43 < Steffmeistro> coi la. ilmen
01:47 < Steffmeistro> I have a question about skari. How do I use the x2? Do I need ka or something? "ti skari lo blanu" isn't right is it?
01:49 < zahlman> well, I would normally just say {ti blanu} :)
01:49 < Steffmeistro> Yeah
01:49 < Steffmeistro> But if I wanted to use skari;)
01:49 < zahlman> {skari} exists more so that you can discuss the concept. but also, I've proposed using it in lujvo for new colour words
01:50 < zahlman> like {tanska}
01:51 < zahlman> (japanese has some colour words like that: mizuiro, chairo, momoiro)
01:53 < Steffmeistro> Okay. But I am still wondering how to use x2 of skari
01:57 < zahlman> I think you do want {ka}
01:58 < zahlman> but this is a serious (and more general) failing of the gimste imo
01:58 < Steffmeistro> "mi skari loka blanu", I am colored blue-ness? My color is the quality of blue?
02:00  * nuzba @beta_almovin: #beta Lojban http://bit.ly/1HUku5l #Movin [http://bit.ly/1Je9iPL]
02:01 < Steffmeistro> Maybe I just don't understand how ka works
02:01 < zahlman> "coloured with blueness"
02:02 < gleki> i just use prototype in skari2. e.g. {lo ciblu} or {lo xunre}
02:03 < zahlman> it probably is fine with a plain sumti like that, yeah
02:03 < zahlman> but then {mi skari lo blanu} is like, "I have the colour of a blue thing"
02:03 < zahlman> just verbose and imprecise
02:03 < zahlman> en: skari
02:03 < mensi> skari = x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4. |>>> Conditions may include
02:03 < mensi> lighting, background, etc..  See also blanu, bunre, cicna, cinta, crino, grusi, narju, nukni, pelxu, xunre, zirpu, carmi,
02:03 < mensi> kandi, xekri, blabi. |>>> officialdata
02:04 < zahlman> writing it that way doesn't suggest uses like {mi skari lo ciblu}, but being able to use it that way makes it actually *useful*
02:04 < zahlman> (hence the lujvo)
02:04 < Steffmeistro> I have the color of that which is (incidentally/noi) blue
02:05 < Steffmeistro> ...isn't really what we want to say is it?
02:05 < zahlman> well, if we're choosing to use skari, then maybe it is :)
02:05 < zahlman> (as a selbri, I mean)
02:06 < Steffmeistro> "mi skari lo tsani" works though huh
02:06 < gleki> it's colored red => it's red
02:07 < zahlman> the problem is that {lo xunre} isn't the concept of being red; it's a red thing
02:08 < Steffmeistro> I guess "mi skari lo ka blanu" is what I want
02:08 < Steffmeistro> Not a blue something but just blue...ness
02:09 < zahlman> I think this discussion should be had at a more popular time :)
02:09 < Steffmeistro> And when is that? US time?;)
02:11 < zahlman> probably :/
02:11 < zahlman> I mean, it's 5am for me
02:11 < gleki> i dont need any properties in x2. if {lo ka blanu} then {lo ka tsani}
02:12 < Steffmeistro> Well here is 11 AM
02:12 < Steffmeistro> "My color is skyness"?
02:14 < zahlman> yeah, you have a point there, gleki.
02:16  * nuzba @HackerfallFeed: Lojban https://hackerfall.com/story/lojban [http://bit.ly/1Je9wGM]
02:16  * nuzba @mandel59: gadri の論理学的観点からの解説    http://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri_%E3%81%AE%E8%AB%96%E7%90%86%E5%AD%A6%E7%9A%84%E8%A6%B3%E7%82%B9%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%AE%E8%A7%A3%E8%AA%AC [http://bit.ly/1Je9Hlb]
02:16  * nuzba @WebStartupGroup: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV #news [http://bit.ly/1Je9YES]
02:16  * nuzba @gtcfeederteam: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jea0fU]
02:16  * nuzba @hacker_news: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/tk2F6d [http://bit.ly/1Jea0wq]
02:16  * nuzba @news_yc: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/tk2F6d [http://bit.ly/1Je9ZbZ]
02:16  * nuzba @devnewsbot: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Je9Zsi]
02:16  * nuzba @htonews: Lojban http://bit.ly/tk2F6d [http://bit.ly/1Jea0MV]
02:16  * nuzba @fnkey: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/tk2F6d [http://bit.ly/1Jea0MZ]
02:16  * nuzba @newsycbot: Lojban http://bit.ly/1cp9nmX (cmts http://bit.ly/1dD3QKU) [http://bit.ly/1Jea27F]
02:16  * nuzba @ruby_engineer: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV #hacker #geek #startup [http://bit.ly/1Jea5QV]
02:16  * nuzba @HackerTheArtist: From HN: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jea7YX]
02:16 < Steffmeistro> But blanu is a *color* while tsani is not?
02:17 < gleki> no
02:17 < gleki> blanu1 is a blue thing
02:17 < Steffmeistro> Yeah...something identified by its color
02:18 < zahlman> wow, what's going on to make nuzba so active suddenly?
02:18 < zahlman> just an HN discussion thread?
02:19 < Steffmeistro> Neither the sky nor its abstract is a color now is it
02:21  * nuzba @VincAppman: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JeaVx2]
02:21  * nuzba @hackernewsrss: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JeaZg8]
02:21  * nuzba @HackerNewsYCBot: Lojban http://bit.ly/1RxHysl Comments: http://bit.ly/1RxHwAB [http://bit.ly/1Jeb0Rg]
02:21  * nuzba @GandhiKathit: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jeb4QZ]
02:21  * nuzba @TechnologyNomad: Lojban | http://bit.ly/1FfWSBo #geeknews via ycombinator [http://bit.ly/1Jeb1Vp]
02:21  * nuzba @swbreakingnews: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV #business #startups [http://bit.ly/1JebarH]
02:21  * nuzba @kwstartups: swbreakingnews: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV #business #startups [http://bit.ly/1Jebd6Z]
02:21  * nuzba @offeryour: 5 – Lojban - http://goo.gl/sOawYr #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JebfvL]
02:22 < gleki> yes, in twitter twitterers with many subscribes cause massive retweeting
02:23 < gleki> it already happened once when on April 1 I proposed hanzi for Lojbna. Then  Language Blog posted about it causing many language twitter channels to retweet or just repost it
02:23 < gleki> *Lojban
02:24 < zahlman> I guess you don't want to ignore retweets outright, since you might miss something?
02:25 < zahlman> idk how much functionality the twitter api gives you for detecting/handling retweets, anyway
02:25 < gleki> im not sure those are retweets. they just copy tweets and post anew
02:25 < gleki> de facto they are
02:27  * nuzba @retweetnewsorg: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JebsPx]
02:27  * nuzba @GamerGeekNews: Lojban http://tinyurl.com/nz4anlr [http://bit.ly/1JebtD0]
02:27  * nuzba @reclaimifytest: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1JebuqH]
02:27  * nuzba @_hnyc: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JebIhs]
02:27  * nuzba @hyperh4cker: Lojban http://ift.tt/1RxIwF7 #hackernews #startup [http://bit.ly/1JebIOs]
02:27  * nuzba @progscrape: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JebQh1]
02:27  * nuzba @copilotasia: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JebS8k]
02:27 < zahlman> could you build a cache of URLs or something? the hit rate ought to be pretty good since so many people use shorteners
02:29 < gleki> what for? btw, nuzba is being run by durka
02:30 < gleki> btw now we have a census of active programmers' tweet channels :D
02:31 < zahlman> heh
02:31 < zahlman> ... "channels"?
02:33  * nuzba @TopHackerNewsHQ: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Jec4og]
02:33  * nuzba @Amy_Sharpton: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jec3k6]
02:33  * nuzba @mindamedia: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV Trailing the updated info-technews on your palm! http://bit.ly/eponsmartlinks [http://bit.ly/1Jec5IW]
02:33  * nuzba @Amy_Sharpton: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JecbjN]
02:33  * nuzba @pradeepbheron: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jecg6P]
02:33  * nuzba @sirajsol: #AutoHackerNews #Lojban http://ift.tt/YV9WJO http://ift.tt/eA8V8J #Comments May 30, 2015 at 04:16AM [http://bit.ly/1Jecj2w]
02:33  * nuzba @sirajsol: May 30, 2015 at 05:31AM        #AutoHackerNews #Lojban http://ift.tt/YV9WJO http://ift.tt/eA8V8J #Comments May 30… http://t.co/W9ViLKMM03 [http://bit.ly/1Jecnzl]
02:33  * nuzba @nobelsn: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jeco6l]
02:33 < gleki> what are they called then? users?
02:34 < gleki> later we'll see how many more views this wiki article got http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Lojban
02:36  * nuzba @sirajsol: May 30, 2015 at 05:32AM        May 30, 2015 at 05:31AM        #AutoHackerNews #Lojban … http://t.co/W9ViLKMM03 http://t.co/FPzVjuGN1l [http://bit.ly/1JeczyI]
02:36  * nuzba @_techstories: Lojban (http://en.wikipedia.org) http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JecKtI]
02:36  * nuzba @davidcamachoj: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1JecKtS]
02:36  * nuzba @altongene16: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/tk2F6d [http://bit.ly/1JecL0F]
02:36  * nuzba @sirajsol: May 30, 2015 at 05:32AM        May 30, 2015 at 05:31AM        #AutoHackerNews #Lojban … … http://t.co/FPzVjuGN1l http://t.co/t53KX1ydVw [http://bit.ly/1JecN8T]
02:37 < gleki> hm, what happened on April 8 ? http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Lojban
02:41  * nuzba @HackAlertNews: Lojban http://ift.tt/1K0tB3R #HB [http://bit.ly/1Jeddw5]
02:41  * nuzba @offeryour: sneak comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/78GCxU #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JedfnN]
02:41  * nuzba @offeryour: parallelist comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/61MD6X #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JedfUL]
02:41  * nuzba @hn_rotub: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jedijo]
02:41  * nuzba @dr_b0n3z_news: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1JedoHR]
02:41  * nuzba @HaxNewsFeed: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1JedoYf]
02:43  * nuzba @TheUGNews: Lojban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://fb.me/7dMwTTOdd [http://bit.ly/1Jednn2]
02:43  * nuzba @AWLITF: Lojban http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1Jednn8]
02:43  * nuzba @vojinurosevic: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1JedpeB]
02:43  * nuzba @CyberMithun: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1Jednne]
02:43  * nuzba @RaivooNET: Hacker: Lojban http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1Jedpv9]
02:43  * nuzba @PhooDotID_JR: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1JednU3]
02:43  * nuzba @uv1997born: #HackerNews Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1Bw4Wx0 [http://bit.ly/1JedtuT]
02:43  * nuzba @Yelow79: #hackernews Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1Jedtv5]
02:43  * nuzba @ThisIsMyStream: Hacker News - Lojban http://bit.ly/tk2F6d [http://bit.ly/1JedrTZ]
02:43  * nuzba @scribbler992000: @scribbler992000 Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1Jedsaj]
02:43  * nuzba @mit01dev: Lojban http://bit.ly/1Bw4Sxf [http://bit.ly/1Jedsap]
02:43  * nuzba @MarvinTheRobot: Lojban http://cur.lv/mha7b [http://bit.ly/1Jedu1S]
02:43  * nuzba @v1lj4n3n: Lojban http://bit.ly/1Bw4VJJ [http://bit.ly/1Jedsax]
02:43  * nuzba @offeryour: leke comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/zKCdlO #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1Jeduz7]
02:43 < zahlman> trends.google.com doesn't seem to know. :(
02:45  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: sneak comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/HHilMH [http://bit.ly/1JedKhp]
02:45  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: parallelist comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/KC1LAC [http://bit.ly/1JedM98]
02:49  * nuzba @aenewsline: Hacker News Bot: Lojban... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban http://ift.tt/1PUs6cy [http://bit.ly/1JeebZj]
02:51  * nuzba @tek_news: HNews: Lojban http://bit.ly/1KDRGif [http://bit.ly/1JeeiUw]
02:55  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: leke comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/Y1d8Og [http://bit.ly/1JeeJOR]
02:59  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: eemax comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/vCGHo2 [http://bit.ly/1JefeZ3]
02:59  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: erikb comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/vyhNNF [http://bit.ly/1JefhUQ]
03:01  * nuzba @quicon: Lojban es un nuevo y maravilloso idioma del mundo.    http://mw.lojban.org/    Lojban 25th Anniversary celebration, 2013. http://t.co/zL1y4TJyiK [http://bit.ly/1JefkQA]
03:01  * nuzba @newsycombinator: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Jeft6p]
03:07  * nuzba @afiqio: RT newsycombinator: Lojban http://ift.tt/1eFWKpi; [http://bit.ly/1Jeg1cG]
03:09  * nuzba @atduarte: "Unambiguous human language based on predicate logic" Vou começar a falar só nesta lingua então https://twitter.com/newsycombinator/status/604588346288050177 [http://bit.ly/1Jeg3RP]
03:11  * nuzba @lexinerus: ReTw 19bq91: RT newsycombinator: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Jegs6P]
03:11  * nuzba @offeryour: doublec comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/jHnU3a #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JegtaJ]
03:13  * nuzba @pptown: Wow... Lojban http://goo.gl/fb/kpRCv5 [http://bit.ly/1Jegxak]
03:13  * nuzba @jackstarr1999: Lojban: Comments http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1HZ4f4f]
03:13  * nuzba @offeryour: pbhjpbhj comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/4dPdlo #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JegECP]
03:14 < niek> Lots of tweets about Lojban =o
03:18  * nuzba @justtechnews1: Lojban http://ift.tt/1KDUjR6 [http://bit.ly/1Jeh1gG]
03:18  * nuzba @hn_bot_top1: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629466) [http://bit.ly/1HZ4T1D]
03:20  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: doublec comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/oGPmdH [http://bit.ly/1Jehgsc]
03:20  * nuzba @newsyc20: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban (http://bit.ly/1eFYrDd) [http://bit.ly/1JehoYK]
03:21 < niek> No influx of people finding this chatroom, though, it seems. Heh.
03:27 < gleki> maybe because it's not in Wikipedia?
03:29  * nuzba @betachatnews: [HackerNews] Lojban: https://surl.im/YbZI [http://bit.ly/1HZ5EHW]
03:29  * nuzba @HNComments: Lojban http://bit.ly/1eFZfYL [http://bit.ly/1JehZtp]
03:29  * nuzba @Leon1969: Lojban:  http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1Jei3t8]
03:31  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: pbhjpbhj comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/cXm1W0 [http://bit.ly/1HZ63KC]
03:33  * nuzba @rssnest: 25.0 10.9 http://tinyurl.com/aws64 Lojban [http://bit.ly/1HZ6g0m]
03:37 < niek> Hi, dedsdfsfdsfs :)
03:37 < dedsdfsfdsfs> hi! Glad to see warm welcome here :D
03:37 < niek> =)
03:38 < niek> Did you get here from the recent attention given to Lojban through Hackernews? :)
03:39 < dedsdfsfdsfs> ah, yes.
03:39 < niek> dedsdfsfdsfs: excellent. Well, welcome! :)
03:39 < niek> If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
03:41  * nuzba @hnnr1: Lojban http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Jej30l]
03:42 < gleki> I added a link to this chat to the wikipedia page
03:42 < niek> gleki: ah, I see.
03:42 < niek> In the relevant section. Excellent =)
03:44  * nuzba @offeryour: david-given comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/mKXU1X #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1HZ7xnX]
03:50  * nuzba @danielchownet: Lojban http://dnlchw.net/1Gb0xXT (via @newsycbot) [http://bit.ly/1HZ87SW]
03:52  * nuzba @hnbreaking: Lojban http://29g.us/BP5KSa http://29g.us/hCEjUK [http://bit.ly/1Jekqfw]
03:52 < asijioadjiajdais> What's with all the tweets?
03:55 < niek> asijioadjiajdais: the "nuzba" bot searches for tweets related to Lojban. There are a lot of them now, since Lojban is currently on Hackernews.
03:56 < asijioadjiajdais> Right, I know about the first part. But why is it that everyone tweets about it? Do they tweet whatever is on the news? Anyway, good exposure.
03:57 < niek> A lot of them seem to be automated, retweeting from Hackernews.
03:57 < asijioadjiajdais> What exactly are the news? That Lojban exists?
03:57 < niek> I suppose so, heh.
03:58 < asijioadjiajdais> Maybe Lojban isn't as well-known among "hackers" as was thought.
03:59 < niek> It probably isn't, no.
03:59 < niek> I learned about it through the XKCD comic about it, actually.
04:00 < asijioadjiajdais> I'm reading a few of the ycombinator threads about Lojban; the comments are quite nice.
04:02 < asijioadjiajdais> Lojban needs more mass-appeal.
04:02 < asijioadjiajdais> Although I know some lojbanists don't want Lojban to become big.
04:04 < asijioadjiajdais> Hire a PR person.
04:04 < gleki> the wikipedia page still needs a lot of improvements. i added some noticeable pieces lacked
04:05 < gleki> glosses of examples are terrible. nd examples themselves can be replaced with something more appealing.
04:07 < asijioadjiajdais> Doesn't the wikipedia page show a 15 year old text translation by nitcion?
04:07 < gleki> that's too
04:08 < gleki> you may add these notes to the Talk page
04:10  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: david-given comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/FNPGCA [http://bit.ly/1HZ9Vva]
04:12  * nuzba @zzadder: Lojban http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1HZa4P8]
04:12  * nuzba @val314159: Lojban http://tinyurl.com/nz4anlr [http://bit.ly/1HZa69H]
04:12  * nuzba @jasondotstar: Lojban http://bit.ly/1RxG29u #hackernews [http://bit.ly/1Jem0y6]
04:12  * nuzba @uitki: BSFK - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BSFK by Spheniscine - #REDIRECT [[bauspo fazykamni]] [http://bit.ly/1HZacOw]
04:13 < asijioadjiajdais> .u'i
04:15  * nuzba @DyslexicAtheist: Lojban http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1HZahSp]
04:17  * nuzba @betachatnews: [HackerNews] Lojban: https://surl.im/O8jN [http://bit.ly/1JemxzY]
04:19 < gleki> i guess this is the origin https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9627046
04:23  * nuzba @offeryour: dalke comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/qPVzH6 #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1Jenbxi]
04:31  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: dalke comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/e0bazM [http://bit.ly/1HZchtU]
04:41  * nuzba @newsyc50: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban (http://bit.ly/1eFYrDd) [http://bit.ly/1JeoZqa]
04:43  * nuzba @464161niftg: za'a lo so'imei cu tu'itsku fi'o te tavla la lojban puza ze'i ki'u da [http://bit.ly/1JepfW5]
04:53  * nuzba @offeryour: erikb comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/kmDbtZ #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1HZeQvT]
04:53  * nuzba @offeryour: erikb comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/ENaO2I #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JeqeWw]
05:07  * nuzba @lexinerus: ReTw gaston_marian: RT newsycombinator: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1JerRTX]
05:11  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: erikb comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/cAzGG1 [http://bit.ly/1HZgU7o]
05:15  * nuzba @snidebot: Lojban is logical but very difficult; it is so logical that the mental discipline required to use it correctly far exceeds that of natu [http://bit.ly/1JesnRU]
05:19  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: erikb comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/bRqpK8 [http://bit.ly/1HZhJNs]
05:19  * nuzba @offeryour: trenchant comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/2LW3cz #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1HZhMc6]
05:29  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: trenchant comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/1814DV [http://bit.ly/1JetKA7]
05:40 < Ilmen> COI
05:41 < Ilmen> si coi
05:41 < Ilmen> .u'e se'i
05:43  * nuzba @trending_robot: http://j.mp/1SIojxV Lojban [http://bit.ly/1HZkiil]
05:47  * nuzba @newsgathered: Lojban http://bit.ly/1AEboHn | https://twibble.io [http://bit.ly/1Jevs4l]
06:03  * nuzba @offeryour: iakdnf comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/247LdQ #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1HZmS82]
06:09  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: iakdnf comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/44C9nw [http://bit.ly/1HZnrPc]
06:11  * nuzba @PaulJoslin: Lojban http://bit.ly/1RxG29u [http://bit.ly/1JexDFl]
06:12 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 140 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 137 normal]
06:12 < gleki> Ilmen: xu ca'oku no da nuzba la mupli
06:14 < Ilmen> mi na djuno loduu xukau da nuzba
06:16 < gleki> au da di'a jmina lo tcita
06:18  * nuzba @betachatnews: [HackerNews] Lojban: https://surl.im/6Qhc [http://bit.ly/1HZo9vY]
06:18  * nuzba @betachatnews: [HackerNews] Lojban: https://surl.im/lwDH [http://bit.ly/1HZoejk]
06:34 < gleki> Lojban localization added to Metrolook skin.
06:44  * nuzba @DavidFoub: Want to learn a new language that nobody speaks yet, but that would encompass all ?  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban #lojban #languagelearning [http://bit.ly/1HZrcEk]
06:49 < asijioadjiajdais> That's like over 300 tweets
06:50 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni
06:52  * nuzba @languagefever: Want to learn a new language that nobody speaks yet, but that would encompass all ?  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban #lojban #languagelearning [http://bit.ly/1KEeVJc]
06:52 < zipcpi> Er no. Try Ithkuil :p
06:53 < zipcpi> coi durkavore
06:54 < zipcpi> aipei do cmima ti no'u la'o url http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni url
06:58 < dutchie> join #ckule
06:58 < dutchie> oops
06:59 < Ilmen> .u'i
06:59 < zipcpi> u'i
07:01  * nuzba @offeryour: falcolas comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/socdlz #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1HZt8wA]
07:02 < zipcpi> xo'o zei lu ji ba'e zei lu
07:03 < gleki> so what r ur opinions on making {zi/za/zu} a universal tag modifier specifying time/space size of the preceding tag?
07:03 < zipcpi> The BSFK has no objections
07:04 < gleki> i 'd like to know where it breaks existing Lojban to know for sure where it daspo. otherwise it wont qualify for an approval by BSFK
07:04 < zipcpi> xa'a'a'a'a'a'a
07:06 < zipcpi> Well I think previous material uses zi ~= cazi, za ~= caza, etc
07:06 < zipcpi> That is if not marked by ca, pu, or ba
07:06 < gleki> {zi} wasnt probably used a lot alone, usually after pu/ba
07:06 < zipcpi> Yeah but there might be the occasional use as {cazi}
07:07 < gleki> how to search for {zi/za/zu} in KzS when it doesnt follow pu/ba?
07:07 < zipcpi> Something like how vi ~= {bu'uvi}
07:07 < zipcpi> I have no idea
07:07 < zipcpi> ju'i durka42
07:07 < durka42> coi
07:07 < gleki> i tried to use {cazi} as a shortcut for {puzi bi'o ba zi}
07:10 < zipcpi> durka42: So, any answer?
07:11 < zipcpi> ua lu zei lu
07:11 < zipcpi> .y. sa la'au zei lu
07:12 < zipcpi> me'o lu bu mabla
07:13 < zipcpi> smuvrici sai
07:13 < durka42> answer to what
07:13 < zipcpi> <gleki> how to search for {zi/za/zu} in KzS when it doesnt follow pu/ba?
07:13 < durka42> oh constructing that KZS query
07:13 < durka42> lemme see
07:14 < durka42> http://korp.alexburka.com/#?cqp=%5Bword%20!%3D%20%22ba%22%20%26%20word%20!%3D%20%22pu%22%5D%20%5B(word%20%3D%20%22zi%22%20%7C%20word%20%3D%20%22za%22%20%7C%20word%20%3D%20%22zu%22)%5D&stats_reduce=word&search_tab=1&search=cqp
07:15 < durka42> [word != "ba" & word != "pu"] [(word = "zi" | word = "za" | word = "zu")]
07:16 < zipcpi> Yeah quite a bit there
07:16 < gleki> well, actually i meant that an arbitrary number of words can be between pu/ba and za within the same clause like in {mi pu viska do za lo cacra}
07:17 < gleki> le zi jbonunsla
07:20 < zipcpi> Yeah true... basically any previous use of zi/za/zu to mean specifically time
07:20 < gleki> idk. how to save this output?
07:21 < zipcpi> Of course it'd be even more problematic if they ever use [non-time-tag] + [zi] to mean "close in time, but within non-time-tag"
07:21 < gleki> under this proposal {lo zi jbonunsla} would become more vague
07:21 < zipcpi> True... it'd be {do'e zi} instead of {ca zi}
07:22 < zipcpi> durka42: Do you want to join the BSFK? :p http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni
07:24 < durka42> .u'i sure
07:25 < gleki> interesting that under this proposal one cannot limit {zi} to just time but only to {pu/ba}
07:25 < gleki> but can limit to space
07:26 < zipcpi> durka42: As it says, all you have to do is add yourself :p
07:27 < zipcpi> You can also give yourself an appropriate/silly title if you want :p
07:31  * nuzba @Jorgedalca: Lojban http://bit.ly/1HZwGiA [http://bit.ly/1Bwv4Ic]
07:31  * nuzba @nulledd: #TIL #Lojban is a constructed, syntactically unambiguous human #language based on predicate #logic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1AEjD6h]
07:44 < zipcpi> durka42: What title do you want? "Henchman", or something else? :p
07:45 < durka42> Grammarian :p
07:46 < zipcpi> OK
07:48 < durka42> za'a xu la .guskant. ca'a finti lo cnino ke detri valsi ciste
07:49 < gleki> na cnino
07:50 < gleki> i pe'i sa'u ca'o favgau lo laldo
07:50 < durka42> go'i
07:50 < zipcpi> mu'i ma finti .i ka'e pilno nylydycymysy ca'i bysyfyky
07:50 < gleki> i ku'i mi na nelci i xu rafsi ge'e
07:50 < mensi> sei mi stace mi na mutce nelci
07:51 < gleki> mu'i na'i i pu lo nu do finti vau la guskant cu stidi
07:51 < zipcpi> doi gleki xu do pilno zo ge'e peseba'i zo ne'au
07:52 < gleki> i lo do ciste cu se kufra i pubo ku'i mi'a casnu lo logji ciste faunai lo nu finti lo cnino ke gerna javni
07:52 < gleki> zo ne'au zo'u na djuno i cumki
07:53 < gleki> en: ne'au
07:53 < mensi> ne'au = [UI1] attitudinal: devoidness of emotion (neutral by absence of emotion) - overwhelmed by/replete with/
07:53 < mensi> overflowing with (seemingly all) emotion |>>> Carries no positive or negative connotations. In some sense, the "empty
07:53 < mensi> attitudinal". |>>> krtisfranks
07:53 < gleki> i la'a na co'e
07:53 < gleki> i zo ge'e lobykai
07:53 < gleki> i lojbo steci se cinmo
07:55  * nuzba @newsyc100: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban (http://bit.ly/1eFYrDd) [http://bit.ly/1Bwy8Eh]
07:58 < gleki> heh, so wat. shall we start discussing Lojban at HackerNews so that more people see our posts?
08:02  * nuzba @knwbt: Lojban -> http://goo.gl/jA9Ywe [http://bit.ly/1AElDeJ]
08:02  * nuzba @betterhn100: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1AElFDf]
08:04  * nuzba @k_ui: ロジバン - Wikipedia http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3 [http://bit.ly/1AElMyN]
08:16  * nuzba @GarrettSmith: Lojban http://dlvr.it/B29C91 #startups #tech [http://bit.ly/1BwC9Zg]
08:18  * nuzba @agramajo: Un lenguaje basado en lógica predicativa para humanos sin ambigüedad https://twitter.com/newsyc100/status/604661552659218433 [http://bit.ly/1AEmMmy]
08:22  * nuzba @offeryour: ColinWright comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/vE2Jrp #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1AEmVGr]
08:22  * nuzba @offeryour: Jack000 comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/RcZQ9d #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1BwCThd]
08:23 < zipcpi> mi na nelci ko'a .i ko'a se pagbu lo zunsna slaka
08:23 < mensi> mi xebni
08:23 < zipcpi> ta'oi ku oi
08:24 < zipcpi> ai bysyfyky daspo loi zunsna slaka
08:26  * nuzba @offeryour: baisong comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/7QNVgl #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1AEneB9]
08:27 < zipcpi> (Anyway I do think ko'a can be used that way. When you can't figure out what lerfu sumka'i to use, just use it even without goi. goi can be used to disambiguate though when needed, which is nice)
08:31  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: ColinWright comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/0mD7tM [http://bit.ly/1AEnCQ3]
08:31  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: Jack000 comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/56MFsX [http://bit.ly/1BwELq0]
08:32 < gleki> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629550
08:33 < gleki> ^ this is where all these tweets originate from
08:33 < gleki> well, actually https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629466
08:34 < gleki> With my programmer hat on, using word order to distinguish the parameters to a selbri feels very Haskell. However, using prepositions feels very Python (i.e. keyword parameters).
08:34 < zipcpi> I've never used Haskell
08:40  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: baisong comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/ekLP84 [http://bit.ly/1BwGmvY]
08:45 < zipcpi> Oh my what spam
08:47  * nuzba @mohamedyossry: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1AEoHaJ]
08:49  * nuzba @cizyprijev: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629466 #hackernews #lojban #conlang #language #logic [http://bit.ly/1AEoNPz]
08:50 < zipcpi> Ugh I have occasional problems with bruxism
08:50 < zipcpi> Used to be a lot worse before I got a CPAP machine
08:50 < zipcpi> But every now and then I still have problems with it
08:58  * nuzba @ketang: Re invented language Lojban, Wikipedia says "It does not have simplicity as a design criterion."  Good luck with that! [http://bit.ly/1BwJh83]
08:59 < zipcpi> Yeah it's not quite Esperanto that way. But it isn't Ithkuil lol
09:05  * nuzba @offeryour: rspeer comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/DHzgPH #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1AEpDfd]
09:05 < bigcentaur> question of the day: {gleua} - is it okay morphologically in lojban?
09:11  * nuzba @NotOnTwtr: .oiro'o bu'onai pei    [physical pain!] [end emotion] [?]    Are you no longer in pain?    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban Lojban language via @TheHackersNews [http://bit.ly/1AEq4pM]
09:12 < gocti> bigcentaur: all of the parsers accept it so I don't see why not
09:13 < gocti> rspeer !
09:15 < bigcentaur> do the parsers check for morphology?
09:21  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: rspeer comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/7o8KOK [http://bit.ly/1BwN7y0]
09:21 < gocti> camxes does:
09:21 < gocti> camxes: mi nelci lo slinku'i .e lo tosmabru
09:21 < camxes> SyntaxError: Expected [,] but "s" found.
09:21 < gocti> yacc doesn't:
09:21 < gocti> yacc: mi nelci lo slinku'i .e lo tosmabru
09:21 < mensi> (mi {nelci <[(lo slinku'i KU) e (lo tosmabru KU)] VAU>})
09:22 < zipcpi> u'i
09:24 < zipcpi> doi gocti ko catlu ti no'u la'o url http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni url
09:24 < gocti> ba'o viska .i .ai ba za ciska lo jbobau versiio
09:24 < zipcpi> u'i
09:26 < zipcpi> la bauspo fazykamni cu panra bypyfyky lo ka palci fa'u zo'e
09:26 < gocti> BPFK se cuntu lo ka facki lo du'u ma kau me lo bi'u nai te panra
09:27 < zipcpi> ie
09:27 < zipcpi> ba'a nitcu tu'a lo so'imei nanca vau zo'o
09:28 < gocti> li'a .i .ei carmi co lanli ro cumki
09:33 < durka42> jbofihe: mi nelci lo slinku'i e lo tosmabru
09:33 < mensi> O_0
09:33 < gocti> jbofihe: tstststststststststststsaoaoaoaoaoaoaoaoaoaoaoaoaoa
09:33 < mensi> O_0
09:34 < niek> I think mensi just exploded?
09:34 < durka42> yacc: la .iak. cu sruma lo du'u ro tolslabu cmavo cu cmavrui .a'a'a'a'a'a'aaaaaaaaa
09:34 < mensi> ({la iak} cu {sruma <[lo (du'u {<[ro BOI] [tolslabu cmavo] KU> cu <[ cmavrui a'a'a'a'a'a'aaaaaaaaa] VAU>} KEI) KU] VAU>})
09:34 < durka42> mensi didn't explode, it just doesn't print jbofi'e errors
09:36 < zipcpi> co'o
09:44 < Ilmen> coi
09:44 < Ilmen> mi'e carvi cilmo
09:54  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: @cizyprijev Okay but what about camxes? It seems to think it's a legal fu'ivla ... http://www.lojban.org/camxes/?text=gleua #lojban [http://bit.ly/1RyPZDM]
10:00  * nuzba @offeryour: gandarojin comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/Qp5f27 #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1JeWJDZ]
10:05 < niftg> la nuzba cu tolcando
10:09  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: gandarojin comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/n21gff [http://bit.ly/1RySLZQ]
10:13 < Ilmen> ie
10:14 < Ilmen> lo nu carvi joi lindi cu se jalge lo nu mi nerkla lo marbi gi'e stali xoi lo dunku simlu smacu cu kansa mi
10:15 < niftg> lo se go'i cu cabna ti vau xu
10:16 < Ilmen> .i fasnu pu za lo cacra xadba
10:16 < niftg> .ua .i ba'anaidai
10:16 < Ilmen> sei to'e satci
10:18 < niftg> .ua bu'u la remoico'e la selpa'i cu jbikla mi .i ku'i lo mi sazycimde cu tolcando dukse gi'e ca'o spuda fi noda
10:22 < Ilmen> ua
10:24  * nuzba @exaday: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1RyVrqa]
11:06 < gleki> i removed that phrase about simplicity. simplicity in what?
11:06 < gleki> anyway it's nice that we are getting feedback
11:25 < gleki> > So what is the actual class of the language? YACC means LALR(1) and PEG means LL(*), afaik. Can you write a LL(k) or even SLL(k) grammar?
11:25 < gleki> [ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9630959 ]
11:25 < gleki> can this question be answered?
11:33  * nuzba @offeryour: dalke comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/xXTnNe #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1QhUhgh]
11:41  * nuzba @uitki: zo i'au ki'a - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/zo_i%27au_ki%27a by Spheniscine - #REDIRECT [[zipcpi: zo i'au ki'a? FAQ about the new cmavo, i'au]] [http://bit.ly/1QhVvIj]
12:12 < Ilmen> coi
12:12 < rutytar> coi
13:02  * nuzba @offeryour: david-given comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/2uN7uz #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1Jfdkr7]
13:03 < durka42> wtf? a spam website that reposts hacker news comments on their own page?
13:03  * durka42 wonders if I should add @offeryour to the nuzba blocklist
13:06 < rutytar> http://alis.lojban.org/ what's with the parenthesis and guillemets? isn't that unlojban?
13:15 < durka42> there's no problem with decorating lojban text with punctuation or italics or whatever, but you'll notice it's always in one-to-one correspondence with the cmavo
13:15 < durka42> parens always coincide with (to … toi), quotes are always with lu/li'u, the italicized words are always preceded by {ba'e}, etc
13:16 < rutytar> okay. i didn't notice that
13:16 < durka42> well now you will :p
13:16 < rutytar> right
13:17 < durka42> are those funny angle-ish quotation marks called guillemets?
13:17 < rutytar> yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet
13:17 < durka42> ua
13:17 < rutytar> so spaces are mandatory, right? there would be syntactic confusion without them?
13:18 < durka42> if you leave out spaces, you have to mark accents
13:19 < rutytar> what does that mean?
13:20 < durka42> words are stressed on the second-to-last syllable, that's how you know where to pull them apart
13:20 < durka42> in speech, for example, there aren't really any spaces, so you go by stress
13:21 < durka42> in writing, you can smush the words together, but then you have to mark the second-to-last syllable as stressed, using a capital letter or an accent mark
13:21 < rutytar> woah
13:21 < durka42> camxes: mi bajra seka'a lo barja
13:21 < camxes> ([mi CU] [bajra {<se ka'a> <lo barja KU>} VAU])
13:21 < durka42> camxes: mibajraseka'alobarja
13:21 < camxes> ([mi CU] [bajraseka'alobarja VAU])
13:21 < durka42> ^ see it didn't really work with no stress marked
13:21 < durka42> camxes: mibAjraseka'alobArja
13:21 < camxes> ([mi CU] [bajra {<se ka'a> <lo barja KU>} VAU])
13:22 < durka42> ^ once I let you know which syllables are second-to-last in a word, no problem
13:23 < durka42> ua pei
13:26 < rutytar> so one syllable words don't mess that up? "mi xunre" wouldn't be confused for "mixunre"?
13:47 < durka42> rutytar: no that can't be confused
13:47 < durka42> the cmavo always falls off the front of the word
13:47 < durka42> this is the classic "tosmabru" problem
13:49  * nuzba @offeryour: ScottBurson comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/U8R4mP #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1KERe3n]
13:49 < rutytar> ah. okay
13:53  * nuzba @erynofwales: @jwisser I'm curious how it compares to Lojban, which has similar properties. [http://bit.ly/1FlIWGI]
13:55  * nuzba @dustinlacewell: @jwisser @erynofwales and Mandain far older than that with many more speakers. Does that mean its easier than Esperanto and Lojban? [http://bit.ly/1KERRdd]
13:59  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: ScottBurson comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/rkGKOR [http://bit.ly/1KES00a]
13:59  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: lkesteloot comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/Mikxyb [http://bit.ly/1FlJr3H]
13:59  * nuzba @offeryour: lkesteloot comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/Oda2Os #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1KESbsv]
14:21  * nuzba @offeryour: ColinWright comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/2Fl6v0 #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1KEUaNg]
14:21  * nuzba @arjunvgkk: offeryour: ColinWright comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/2Fl6v0 #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1KEUf3L]
14:28 < ldlework> what is this offer crap
14:28 < durka42> dunno
14:28 < durka42> brb killing it :)
14:30 < durka42> new bot parameters:
14:30 < durka42> words: ['lojban', 'jbobau', 'ロジバン'],
14:30 < durka42>           exclude: [/* 'uitki', */ 'hettgutt', 'offeryour', 'ExplodingAds', 'arjunvgkk'],
14:32  * nuzba @offeryour: ldlework comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/uWH7Ty #sales #marketing #trending #news http://t.co/OwPZ0uKgwo [http://bit.ly/1I0t7sp]
14:32  * nuzba @ExplodingAds: ColinWright comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/Y9MZce [http://bit.ly/1KEV6kX]
14:32  * nuzba @SproutCats: CAT HACKER: Lojban http://bit.ly/1GMxxo7 [http://bit.ly/1KEVhfX]
14:33 < durka42> er
14:33 < durka42> I hope those were just cached from before I changed the list
14:38 < fpcalep> la'a mi ze'a lo djedi be li ji'i reno na .irci .i mi jungau te zu'e lo nu do na xanka tu'a mi
14:38 < durka42> ko ko kurji .u'i
14:38 < durka42> xu litru
14:39 < fpcalep> .y go'i
14:39 < durka42> ma
14:39 < fpcalep> lo na slabu
14:40 < fpcalep> .i zo'o gau ko lo jbobau ze'a lo nu mi na zvati cu .y
14:41 < durka42> cu mo
14:41 < fpcalep> na djuno
14:41 < durka42> mi puzi cmibi'o lo bauspo fazykamni .i'au iidai toi'e .u'i
14:41 < fpcalep> mi ji'a cmima
14:42 < fpcalep> .i koi do'o .y xendo zu'ai
14:42 < durka42> ua
14:44 < fpcalep> .i ji'a gau ko mi ca lo nu xruti cu .a'o facki lo du'u su banli ba'o mo'u se zukte do'o
14:44 < durka42> .a'o
14:44 < fpcalep> (to mi tavla lo ro jbopre toi)
14:46 < fpcalep> .i lanzu fa ma'a .i cizra mi fa lo nu ze'u na jikca
14:46 < Ilmen> mi'e jbopre .i ja'o mi se tavla
14:46 < fpcalep> .i ja'e bo mi juxre tolrinsa
14:47 < Ilmen> xu klama lo drata gugde
14:47 < fpcalep> la'a zo gugde na mapti
14:48 < fpcalep> jbo:bargu'e
14:48 < mensi> bargu'e [< bartu gugde ≈ Bartu* gugde*] = x1 gugde gi'e bartu x2 noi ke'a gugde
14:48 < fpcalep> .i'e
14:48 < fpcalep> ma finti zo'o
14:48 < Ilmen> xu ba se vanbi lo drata bangu
14:48 < fpcalep> drata be ma
14:49 < Ilmen> lo dotybau
14:49 < fpcalep> la'a
14:50 < fpcalep> .i sa'e lo nu da'i na se vanbi lo drata be lo dotybau cu nu mi nalzva xoi palcau
14:50 < Ilmen> .i mi zo'u ca'o se tolzdi lo ka jansu zukte .i ko zanfri lo ka jansu zifre :P
14:50 < fpcalep> .oi xu do za'o kelci
14:50 < Ilmen> va'o ro da lakne fa lo nu gau la .xorxes. mi ba zi zifre .u'i
14:51 < fpcalep> go'i
14:51 < fpcalep> jbo:jbebau
14:51 < mensi> jbebau [< jbena bangu ≈ Jbena* bangu*] = x1 bangu gi'e poi'i su'o da co'a lo nu x2 jbena cu tavla x2 zi'o
14:51 < mensi> ke'a
14:51 < fpcalep> lo jbobau cu jbebau lo jbajbi
14:52 < fpcalep> jbo:jbegu'e
14:52 < mensi> jbegu'e [< jbena gugde ≈ Jbena* gugde*] = x1 gugde x2 gi'e jai bu'u jbena fai x2
14:52 < fpcalep> .u'e jbegu'e
14:52 < fpcalep> sei rimni
14:52 < Ilmen> ta'o nai di'ai litru
14:52 < fpcalep> ki'e do
14:52 < Ilmen> .i ko zanfri
14:52 < fpcalep> .i nitcu lo ka zanfu'a ce
14:53 < fpcalep> .i .a'o zanfri
14:53 < fpcalep> .i .a'o snada ma kau
14:53 < fpcalep> .i ro mai do mo zo du ne CKTJ
14:54 < fpcalep> .i cizra preti
14:54 < durka42> pilno
14:55 < fpcalep> .i sa'u zo du'u fegli basti zo du .i lu mi du'u lo bi'u nai ctuca li'u fegli mi
14:55 < Ilmen> mi za'o na birti .i mi je'a pilno .i ku'i lo du'u xu kau .edlegante mi zo'u mi na djuno
14:55 < Ilmen> .i mi zo'u zo mintu cu mansa mi
14:56 < Ilmen> .i ku'i sa'u mi nu'o djuno lo du'u xu kau lo te frica be tau zo du bei tau zo mintu cu plixau
14:56 < durka42> sa'u mi ji'inoroi cusku zo du ne lo fadni
14:56 < Ilmen> va'i to'u mi nu'opre
14:57 < fpcalep> je'e nu'o prenu
14:57 < Ilmen> .u'i
14:57 < fpcalep> .i zo mintu zo'u je'e .i'a
14:57 < fpcalep> .i ia ru'e la .xorxes. cu frica pilno zo mintu
14:57 < Ilmen> za'a go'i
14:57 < fpcalep> .i ku'i ka'e gasnu lo nu xy. cenba
14:58 < Ilmen> .au mi brireisku fi xy fe lo ka xy jinvi lo du'u ce'u frica lo si'o mintu ku lo si'o dunli
14:59 < fpcalep> mi'o rau roi casnu  lo mi'o se jinvi pe zo mintu je lo srana .i ia mi'o dunli lo ka jinvi ma kau
14:59 < fpcalep> dunsi'u *
14:59 < fpcalep> .i do ka'e krati mi tu'a xy.
15:00 < fpcalep> .i ta'o nai .i'a .i'a
15:01 < fpcalep> .i mi pu jungau la danmo tau lo virtu'ale jbogu'e
15:02 < fpcalep> .i la danmo ca'o zukte lo drata .i ku'i ju'o cu'i tau lo nuzba cu se jalge lo nu ze'i ja ze'i nai .irci
15:02 < fpcalep> .i .a'o lo daplu munje di'a nalspofu
15:02 < fpcalep> .i ji'a mi pacna lo nu la .guskant. cu se cinri
15:02 < gocti> ka'e ku zo mintu pe X co'e lo ka mlumitu
15:02 < gocti> (to je'e litru ko se prali toi)
15:03 < fpcalep> keije lo nu .y pilno lo daplu tau la .mambyl.
15:03 < fpcalep> ki'e jimpe be la'ai
15:03 < fpcalep> sisi
15:03 < gocti> zo la'ai mo
15:03 < fpcalep> la gleki pu zu pilno
15:04 < fpcalep> .i ca'a zei cmavo je cu co'e zo lakne
15:04 < gocti> ua
15:04 < fpcalep> srana zo fanbu je zo bi'ai je lo drata
15:06  * nuzba @Hn150: Lojban http://goo.gl/aSeG (http://goo.gl/zp7B1D) [http://bit.ly/1I0uxTJ]
15:06  * nuzba @newsyc150: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban (http://bit.ly/1eFYrDd) [http://bit.ly/1KEWDHF]
15:07 < durka42> wow how much of twitter is just HN bots
15:10 < Ilmen> koi lo tarci do badzga doi la ciftoldi
15:11 < gocti> ja vertoldi ja mo kau no'oi se cuxna fo ku
15:12 < fpcalep> ki'e la .ilmen.
15:12 < fpcalep> jbo:todma'u
15:12 < mensi> [< toldi makcu ≈ Toldi* makcu*] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
15:12 < mensi> todma'u[6387], todmakcu[7937], toldyma'u[8517], toldymakcu[10067]
15:12 < fpcalep> en:todma'u
15:12 < mensi> todma'u [< toldi makcu ≈ Butterfly mature] = x1 is butterfly imago/adult butterfly of species
15:12 < mensi> x2
15:13 < durka42> oi la cizypij cu tu'itsku jifyjunxu'a
15:13 < fpcalep> ma
15:13 < fpcalep> .i xu cusku zo zo'e
15:13 < durka42> https://twitter.com/cizyprijev/status/604676997982351360
15:13 < Ilmen> sei sanga .i .ai nau co'a litru .i fe lo nanba panlo joi lo dakfu joi lo gustci cu punji lo bakfu...
15:14 < durka42> na sa'e jifyjunxu'a .i xlali ba'e fi ma
15:14 < fpcalep> la cizypij. pilno le lojbo bangu pe la cunre cukta gi'e jinvi ledu'u ro zmadu cnino cu xlali
15:15 < fpcalep> .i lu .au lo jbobau cu morsi bangu li'u voi la .cizypij. ki cusku
15:15 < durka42> ku'i zo gleua na xlali fi su'o da
15:16 < durka42> ie mi morji lo se cusku be la .cizypij. .i ci'izra
15:16 < fpcalep> .i ku'i xamgu kurji la .putcid.
15:17 < durka42> go'i
15:18 < fpcalep> ti nu cusku zo co'o doi pendo
15:18 < durka42> co'o
15:19 < durka42> ko xrukla bazu lo jeftu be li ci
15:19 < fpcalep> li su'e .a'o ci
15:20 < durka42> je'e
15:20 < gocti> co'o fi'o diklo
15:21 < fpcalep> co'o tsurixi
15:23 < durka42> ua xu do xabju la .tsurix. doi la gocti
15:23 < Ilmen> pe'i go'i
15:24 < gocti> go'i
15:24 < gocti> .i do cu'e zvati la ctukarda
15:25 < Ilmen> za'a la selpa'i mo'u cliva
15:25 < Ilmen> di'ai ri
15:29 < durka42> la ctukarda cu mo
15:29 < durka42> ua
15:29 < gocti> la'oi Stuttgart (to ja lo vanbi toi)
15:29 < durka42> mi ba zvati la .tubingen.
15:30 < durka42> ue cusku so'i da fo lo fadni ve boxna pe la kibjasyselkei
15:32 < durka42> gocti: co'a fa'u mo'u zvati T de'i li M 7 D 12 fa'u li M 7 D 26
15:34 < gocti> la'a cumki fa lo nu vitke .i ka'e klama xoi cacra li 3
15:34 < durka42> ie trene co'e xunai
15:34 < gocti> go'i
15:34 < durka42> .ai se'i pei mi .erve lo zu trene jaspu
15:36  * nuzba @HighSNHN: Lojban: http://goo.gl/aSeG ( https://goo.gl/8LtsQN ) [http://bit.ly/1FLlepN]
15:36  * nuzba @bgcarlisle: But how to say "om nom nom" (Eng) or "miam miam miam" (Fr) in #Lojban? [http://bit.ly/1FLlmG0]
15:37 < gocti> mi na mutce co se slabu ga lo cumki ke jaspu ciste gi lo do pluta
15:37 < Ilmen> co'o ro do
15:37 < gocti> co'ordo
15:37 < gocti> .omnomno xu nai
15:40 < gocti> za'a lo na'e ropno se gugde cu zmadu sai lo je'a ropno lo ka ma kau ce jdima be tu'a lo ropno ke trene jaspu
15:41 < durka42> .u'i la'a
15:42 < durka42> gocti: .ai mi vitke la .tsurix. ca pa jefyfa'o .i .ai penmysi'u
15:42 < gocti> .i la'a xamgu fa lo nu .erve lo dotco ke jdimynunjdika jaspu (to ti'e zei ti'e je na nu lanli kei jalge toi)
15:42 < gocti> da'i zabna ie
15:44 < gocti> .i sipnybzu co'o
15:45 < durka42> co'o
16:15  * nuzba @doublec: There's a lojban post on hacker news. ti pluka mi. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629466 [http://bit.ly/1d6igT5]
16:16 < durka42> ma'a sanji .i lo ki'oki'o tu'itsku zmiku cu jungau .u'i
16:46  * nuzba @ScraperNews: Lojban - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9629466 [http://bit.ly/1BxYnKB]
16:56  * nuzba @arturventura: I heard about Lojban today for the first time. Now I've seen a second reference … [http://bit.ly/1BxZIRA]
16:59 < durka42> lojban: a way to test the dunning-kruger effect ?!!
16:59 < durka42> zo'o
17:03 < rutytar> has anyone tried making an e-prime lojban->english dictionary?
17:12 < rutytar> s/x1 is a name of x2 to x3/x1 is commonly referred to as x2 by x3/
17:18 < durka42> what's e-prime?
17:22 < rutytar> durka42: e-prime is english, but excluding any version of "is"
17:22 < rutytar> so no is, was, are, they're, being, am, be
17:22 < durka42> oh right
17:23 < rutytar> you once said 'do te pixra'
17:24 < rutytar> in english, it might translate to "you are an artists", or "a picture is made by you"
17:24 < rutytar> the second is more lojban, and is e-prime
17:25 < rutytar> more lojbanic, i should say
17:26 < durka42> I see
17:50  * nuzba @lexinerus: ReTw Osaka_Starbux: RT newsycombinator: Lojban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1HW5AeW]
18:02 < durka42> rrrrrrrrr
18:42  * nuzba @zephyrfalcon: Interesting... "Conclusion: It's faster to learn "(Esperanto|Lojban) Swedish" than it is to learn Swedish alone." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9631607 [http://bit.ly/1FhzsLX]
18:47 < KiChjang> coi rodo
19:21 < durka42> coi la'oi KiChjang
19:25 < durka42> KiChjang: what's up?
19:52 < cntr> you know what they call a questioning distro?
19:52 < cntr> xubuntu!
20:00 < rutytar> sigh
--- Log closed Sat May 30 21:08:20 2015
--- Log opened Sat May 30 21:15:37 2015
21:15 -!- Irssi: #lojban: Total of 135 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 133 normal]
21:17 -!- Irssi: Join to #lojban was synced in 129 secs
22:04 < leobeltran> Hello!
22:10 < leobeltran> Hello
22:11 < leobeltran> Broca
22:37  * nuzba @Rumnha: Lojban http://bit.ly/1ACgSCx [http://bit.ly/1PVRD4S]
22:55  * nuzba @proxbomb: offeryour: qbrass comments on "Lojban" - http://goo.gl/yYY3sL #sales #marketing #trending #news [http://bit.ly/1cqY3GO]
--- Day changed Sun May 31 2015
02:22  * nuzba @icymihn: Lojban http://bit.ly/1cresLu comm: http://bit.ly/1ByJdoc [http://bit.ly/1d6SVs8]
02:37 < zahlman> ... so I'm reading 'xekri je blanu nicte'
02:37 < zahlman> and it has the line {.i da ze'e pruxi le prami}
02:37 < zahlman> en: pruxi
02:37 < mensi> pruxi = x1 is spiritual/pertains to the soul in nature [either energy or being]; x1 is ghostly/ethereal. |>>> Also soul
02:37 < mensi> (= ruxse'i).  See also censa, lijda, mucti, xadni. |>>> officialdata
02:37 < zahlman> what was pruxi2 supposed to be?
02:39 < gleki> soul of the lover?
02:40 < gleki> Btw, I'm editing the Wikipedia page of Lojban. Adn Nick's translation is old. How can we update it and then put onto the Wikipedia page. Maybe oficialize it somehow?
02:41 < gleki> I think I need to contact LLG
02:42 < zahlman> ... nick?
02:47 < gleki> nicholas
02:48 < zahlman> I don't think I saw it.
02:48 < zahlman> is it on the wp page? I didn't take that route
02:48 < gleki> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#The_North_Wind_and_the_Sun
02:52 < zahlman> probably the best route would be to get an updated translation on an official jbo site, then replace the link and translation
02:52 < zahlman> on the page
02:52 < zahlman> you'd have to watch for anyone reverting it, and then be prepared to discuss the matter on the talk page.
02:53 < gleki> you may start updating now in another place btw. later we'll contact LLG and present the translation.
02:53 < zahlman> I'm not seeing glaring issues with that translation though?
02:54 < gleki> jei, co'i
02:54 < gleki> xorlo
02:55 < zahlman> did jei change?
02:55 < zahlman> it's kind of an awkward way to produce the abstraction anyway
02:55 < gleki> who knows. better to avoid such issues
02:55 < zahlman> I would probably go with something like {lo du'u makau...}
02:55 < zahlman> and then restrict the UD for {ma} to the two of them
02:56 < gleki> https://docs.google.com/document/d/13rEkPCDO3EX0JH5gle8tm68SfLVFBIDhilOgwNOXRHk/edit?usp=sharing
02:56 < gleki> feel free to edit it
02:57 < zahlman> it's more thought than I can muster at the moment though, I think :)
02:57 < zahlman> I'll keep the tab open, but I already have a pretty big backlog of... not-lojban things
02:58 < zahlman> but za'a you've been editing recently without anyone objecting to it, so
03:00 < gleki> also {tugni2} is wrong etc.
03:04 < gleki> {-roc-} is no longer a rafsi
03:04 < Ilmen> zahlman: jei broda = jezyje'u be lo du'u broda
03:05 < gleki> "the more ... the more" is better expressed with "is a function"
03:06 < Ilmen> ro nu .... cu zenri'a lo nu ...
03:07 < gleki> en:zenri'a
03:07 < mensi> zenri'a [< zenba rinka ≈ Increase cause] = r1 (event/state) increases/increments/augments x2=z1 in property/quantity
03:07 < mensi> x3=z2 by amount x4=z3.
03:07 < gleki> k:vaungau 
03:07 < mensi> (CU [Z:vaungau VAU])
03:07 < gleki> and i have no clue what is {vaungau}
03:07 < Ilmen> em, ro nu .... cu zenba cu zenria
03:07 < gleki> en:vaurgau
03:07 < mensi> [< vasru gasnu ≈ Contain do] lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
03:07 < mensi> vaurgau[6936], vasygau[6967], vasrygau[7997], vaurgasnu[9006], vasygasnu[9037], ...
03:08 < gleki> Ilmen: i think we need to create a page similar to that Aesop's fable with several translations
03:08 < gleki> Nick's one is just superstrange
03:10 < Ilmen> An old attempt of me and a few other to translate The North Wind and the Sun without the help of a dictionary
03:10 < Ilmen> http://piratepad.net/WdK4EANOoH
03:10 < gleki> is it in the wiki?
03:10 < Ilmen> There are blanks and weird parts because we only used words or construct we remembered
03:11 < Ilmen> as we didn't use any dictionary
03:11 < Ilmen> gleki: not to my knowledge
03:11 < zahlman> gleki: I contributed some copyediting to the article lede. I hope it meets your approval
03:12 < gleki> zahlman: ki'e
03:15 < gleki> Ilmen: so i finished the translation. any objection? See the llg-members list. i sent a letter there. i need something usable and preferably easy to read to be approved. precision in translation is not very relevant here imo
03:16 < gleki> https://docs.google.com/document/d/13rEkPCDO3EX0JH5gle8tm68SfLVFBIDhilOgwNOXRHk/edit?hl=en#
03:19 < Ilmen> I'd use { darlu lo du'u ma kau traji lo ka vlipa ku (fo) vo'a }
03:19 < gleki> im not sure of the scope of {i TAGbo} stringed one after another
03:20 < gleki> Ilmen: traji4 warning! but i guess few will object that traji3=traji4 i.e. traji4 remains?
03:20 < gleki> en:traji
03:20 < mensi> traji = x1 is superlative in property x2 (ka), the x3 extreme (ka; default ka zmadu) among set/range x4.
03:20 < Ilmen> I remember I wondered the same about iTAGbo for my "lo re litru jo'u lo cribe", and someone (phma?) helped me making me using bo correctly there
03:21 < gleki> do yuo think {vo'a}, not {lo me vo'a} is correct here?
03:21 < Ilmen> I don't see any objection to allowing traji3 and traji4 be synonymous
03:22 < gleki> off: i du ibabo mo ipubo co'e
03:22 < mensi> (i [du VAU] [i ba bo {mo VAU} {i pu bo <co'e VAU>}])
03:23 < Ilmen> In my translation of Two Travelers and a Bear: { simlu lo ka jetnu .i ki'u bo lo cribe cu tolcliva gi'e panzga pi ro ko'a fau lo nu ko'a vaxsezri'u gi'e tankomo lo ni mromlu ku lo ka kakne .i ba zi bo lo cribe ko'a cliva ki'u lo nu no roi morsi pencu }
03:24 < gleki> "stronger than the other" - i think {zmadu} should remain here, pei
03:24 < Ilmen> here, it's { broda .i ki'u bo [ brode .i ba zi bo brodo ] }
03:25 < Ilmen> Well, we should translate the meaning, and not necessarily the words
03:25 < Ilmen> zmadu can work, sure, but it seems more verbose
03:25 < gleki> ok changed
03:26 < gleki> what about {lo me vo'a}?
03:26 < Ilmen> ma kau poi me vo'a cu zmadu lo me vo'a poi drata...
03:26 < gleki> {la berti brife ce la solri pu darlu lo du’u makau traji lo ka vlipa vau fo lo me vo’a}
03:26 < gleki> what about this?
03:26 < Ilmen> I'd use jo'u instead of ce
03:27 < gleki> hm, well, {vo'a} links to the set anyway
03:27 < Ilmen> (actually I don't see much useful difference between jo'u and ce)
03:27 < gleki> probably {jo'u} is safer
03:27 < Ilmen> as for "lo me vo'a" vs "vo'a", I don't see any diference
03:28 < gleki> la berti brife jo’u la solri pu darlu lo du’u ma kau traji lo ka vlipa vau fo vo’a i ca bo lo litru noi dasni lo glare cupra kosta cu klama
03:28 < gleki> i le re mei pu simxu lo ka tugni fi lo nu lo pa moi snada be lo ka gasnu lo nu le litru co’u dasni le kosta cu traji lo ka vlipa
03:28 < Ilmen> .ei mi citka ta'o .i di'a catlu ba
03:28 < gleki> .i ba bo la berti brife co’a traji troci brife .i ku'i lo nu by by brife ji’e ma kau pu fancu fi lo nu le litru cu jai zu’e se tagji le kosta ji’e ma kau i ba bo la berti brife cu sisti lo ka troci .i ba bo la solri co’a glare dirce .i ba zi bo le litru co'u dasni le kosta .i seki'u bo la berti brife cu bilga lo ka tugni fi lo nu la solri cu traji lo ka vlipa
03:29 < gleki> zo bilga ge'e
03:29 < gleki> i zo ca'a pei
03:29 < Ilmen> co'o .i mi di'a jundi lo prosa ba
03:29 < Ilmen> si
03:29 < Ilmen> soi balvi
03:29 < gleki> i zo bai mapti ju'ocu'i
03:30 < gleki> i co'o co'o
03:46 < NejBan> Coi
03:49 < niek> coi
03:49 < niek> fi'i doi la'o gy NejBan gy
03:49 < niek> Welcome =)
03:51 < NejBan> ki'e niek
03:52 < niek> I suppose you are new to Lojban. I haven't seen you before, I think. If you have any questions, feel free to let us know :)
03:57 < NejBan> Yes that is correct.  I was reading about it and found this place
04:02 < gleki> probably for working with anji  in sutysisku i need something like this: https://github.com/rakuten-nlp/rakutenma
04:04 < gleki> but in general stemming leads to significant slowdown or index generation
04:04 < gleki> but in general stemming leads to significant slowdown of* index generation
04:07 < niek> NejBan: excellent. I'm going to assume you started reading about it through HackerNews? I know it was mentioned there yesterday, which gave it a lot of attention =)
04:10 < niek> mi nitcu lo nu cavysezlu'i .i mi ba zi xruti .i co'o
04:10 < djbdjb> Hi! I have a beginner's question about Lojban for a talk I'm giving on constructed languages. Can anyone help me out with a translation?
04:10 < niek> djbdjb: hm, sure! I was about to head off for a moment, but I'm glad to help =)
04:11 < djbdjb> hey, thanks!
04:12 < djbdjb> I am introducing people to the concept of Lojban and I thought it would be fun to show a translated phrase. The name of the event is ‘Odd Monday’ (because it happens on Mondays and is about esoteric stuff)
04:12 < djbdjb> I want to show the phrase "I'm going to Odd Monday!" and add some attitudinals to it
04:12 < djbdjb> (I like th eidea of attitudinals very much)
04:14 < gleki> ai mi zvati la cizra pavdei
04:14 < niek> Yes, I think that would work well :)
04:14 < niek> ki'e la gleki
04:15 < djbdjb> great! I thought if it was a proper noun it had to end in a consonant? like cizr.pavd. or something?
04:15 < gleki> gloss: ai mi zvati la cizra pavdei
04:15 < mensi> Intent me at Strange Monday
04:15 < gleki> hm
04:15 < gleki> we dont have a very good glosser here
04:15 < gleki> try this http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/i/en/index.html#sisku/ai%20mi%20zvati%20la%20cizra%20pavdei
04:15 < djbdjb> so zvati expresses ‘will’ rather than travelling?
04:16 < gleki> ai = attitudinal of intent
04:16 < djbdjb> ah, attendace
04:16 < gleki> mi = I
04:16 < gleki> zvati = to be present at (event/place)
04:16 < gleki> la - name follows
04:16 < gleki> cizra - to be odd, strange
04:16 < djbdjb> can I combine attitudinal of intent with another one? like i am intending and i am excited, or i am intending and i am afraid?
04:16 < gleki> pavdei - is a Monday ...
04:17 < gleki> there is already an atttudinal of intent. It's {ai}.
04:17 < gleki> Yes, you can combine several attitudinals
04:17 < gleki> {ii} = afraid
04:17 < gleki> {ii} = attutudinal of being afraid
04:17 < gleki> jb:ii
04:17 < mensi> ii = ii [interjection] — Eek! Yikes! (fear), ii nai — safeness
04:17 < mensi> :ii da klama — Eek, there is someone coming!
04:17 < mensi> :ii nai le djacu na ba kuspe mi'o — The water won't reach us.
04:18 < mensi> :Related words: terpa, snura
04:18 < djbdjb> ai ii mi zvati la cizra pavdei ?
04:18 < djbdjb> “I intend to go to odd monday and i am afraid”?
04:18 < niek> djbdjb: should they fear this strange monday? :D
04:18 < djbdjb> lol
04:18 < gleki> yeah. it'd mean "I'm gonna (but I have fear, Yikes!) to be at Odd Monday
04:18 < djbdjb> i should fear it because i am delivering a talk!
04:18 < djbdjb> amazing
04:18 < niek> djbdjb: Haha. Good luck :)
04:19 < niek> djbdjb: will it be recorded?
04:19 < NejBan> niek, yes that's correct
04:19 < djbdjb> cheers. thanks for your help!
04:19 < djbdjb> I can try to record if you like, but i fear i will make many errors
04:19 < niek> djbdjb: if so, is there any place we would be able to see it back? :)
04:19 < niek> djbdjb: oh, don't worry =)
04:19 < djbdjb> next time.
04:19 < niek> NejBan: excellent =) Once again, any questions, let us know.
04:20 < djbdjb> cool. by the way, do you speak lojban in non-IRC contaxts?
04:20 < djbdjb> *contexts
04:20 < niek> djbdjb: non-internet contexts? Or just non-IRC?
04:20 < niek> djbdjb: I know some people have set up voice conferences.
04:20 < djbdjb> non-internet, i guess
04:20 < niek> djbdjb: I personally do not.
04:21 < djbdjb> ah, ok! just curious. Thanks for your help.
04:21 < niek> But others have, as far as I'm aware :)
04:22 < djbdjb> cool. co’o!
04:24 < niek> co'o ro do .i mi ze'i na jundi
05:08 < Ilmen> coi
05:09 < gleki> coi
05:41 < Ilmen> en: ji'e
05:41 < mensi> ji'e = [BAI] jimte modal, 1st place                            limitedly; up to limit ... |>>>
05:41 < mensi> officialdata
05:44 < gleki> i have been asking for fi'o gradu for  a long time.
05:44 < gleki> la'u?
05:44 < gleki> jei?
05:44 < gleki> ni?
05:45 < gleki> the last two can't be applied to particular parts of a bridi
05:45 < Ilmen> jbo: darlu
05:45 < mensi> darlu = x1 sabji lo krinu be lo nu jinvi x2 .e nai x3  |>>> sabji; krinu; jinvi |>>>
05:45 < mensi> xorxes
05:48 < niek> mi xruti
05:48 < niek> coi rodo
05:48 < gleki> indeed, {la'u} can be a better replacement for {ni}
05:48 < niek> coi la gleki e la'o gy Ilmen gy e la mensi
05:54 < niek> fi'i coi la rutytar
05:54 < rutytar> coi
05:58 < rutytar> what is the difference between darsi and virnu?
05:59 < niek> gloss: darsi
05:59 < mensi> Audacity
05:59 < gleki> jb:darsi
05:59 < mensi> darsi = darsi — x1(entity)  shows audacity in behavior  x2(property of x1)
05:59 < mensi> :lo darsi — cheeky. lo se darsi — audacious behaviour.
05:59 < mensi> :la Edvard ca darsi lo ka na cusku lo jetnu la Tom — Eduard dares not tell Tom the truth.
05:59 < mensi> :Related words: virnu
05:59 < gleki> jb:virnu
05:59 < mensi> virnu = virnu — x1(entity)  is brave in  x2(property of x1)
05:59 < mensi> :lo virnu — brave. lo se virnu — done bravely.
05:59 < mensi> :do pu virnu lo ka klama lo nenri be lo jelca dinju — It was brave of you to enter the burning house.
05:59 < mensi> :Related words: terpa, darsi
06:00 < rutytar> cool
06:01 < rutytar> i guess they're similar but not identical
06:04 < PrincessBecca> ugh this whole duolingo esperanto thing is hindering my lojban studies, as the course creator has asked me to help people on Facebook.
06:04 < PrincessBecca> 9600 people have started learning esperanto in two days. about as many people as there probably are who fluently speak the language.
06:05 < rutytar> how do you estimate that?
06:05 < PrincessBecca> it's very very difficult.
06:05 < PrincessBecca> guessing at best.
06:06 < PrincessBecca> point is, by any estimates esperanto is experiencing a "baby boom" right now.
06:06 < Ilmen> gleki: I've added another version to your google doc
06:06 < PrincessBecca> probably a good time to kabei toward more antisocial languages :)
06:09 < Ilmen> gleki: I suspect you are trying to avoid using non-gismu brivla tho. As for me I see no point in trying to avoid them tho, as I don't really care much about the gismu/zi'evla/lujvo distinction
06:09 < gleki> Ilmen: they are not in any good dictionarues. JVS is falling apart with kurtyvla
06:10 < rutytar> what is kurtyvla?
06:11 < Ilmen> gleki: I don't think "cupra" is necessary in "glare cupra kosta"
06:11 < Ilmen> but that's only an opinion
06:12 < gleki> Ilmen: i think it should be {jai clira}
06:12 < Ilmen> why so?
06:13 < Ilmen> It's a shorthand for {clira fa lo nu snada...}
06:13 < gleki> clira is an event
06:13 < gleki> also i dont think LLG will accept tankomo
06:14 < Ilmen> It's a borrowing word. I defy them to disprove it xD
06:14 < Ilmen> zo'o ru'e
06:15 < gleki> im not sure how {ni} works here
06:16 < Ilmen> Well I'm not sure what {ni} means, so indeed it's guesswork here.
06:17 < PrincessBecca> zo'onai a'o la .du'olingos. cu xamgu ro lo sidju bangu
06:17 < gleki> i made a few improvements, adding your suggestions. and i removed {ji'e} with what you can see now
06:17 < Ilmen> You can also use {ro nu bripra zenba cu rinka lo nu kosta tagji zenba
06:17 < Ilmen> }
06:18 < Ilmen> it's safer / less metaphorical, although it has a more specific meanig
06:18 < Ilmen> *meaning
06:19 < Ilmen> Is there any difference between {mi zenba lo ka xo kau va'e tatpi} and {mi zenba lo ka tatpi}?
06:20 < Ilmen> selmaho:va'e
06:20 < mensi> .i lu va'e li'u cmavo zo'oi MOI
06:20 < mensi> http://lojban.github.io/cll/5/11/
06:21 < gleki> okay, removed va'e
06:21 < gleki> so we lost selpa'i for a while, right? noone else can check our translation?
06:22 < Ilmen> I'm not really sure whether {darlu} works here; it has a place structure a bit strange
06:22 < Ilmen> but .i'a
06:22 < PrincessBecca> ia la .du'olingos. ba xamgu ro lo sidju bangu goi ko'a lo nu vlipa lo nu sanji ko'a
06:22 < gleki> may be just casnu then?
06:22 < Ilmen> (I don't have anything better at hand anyway)
06:22 < gleki> jdice?
06:22 < gleki> jb: jdice
06:22 < mensi> jdice = jdice — x1(entity)  makes a judgement, decides that  x2(proposition)  is true about  x3(entity)
06:22 < mensi> :mi mo'u jdice lo du'u ei mi'a stali — I decided that we need to stay.
06:22 < mensi> :xu do jdice lo ka jai se kufra vau lo do zdani — Have you decided that your home is
06:22 < mensi> comfortable?
06:22 < mensi> :mi'a zanru lo se jdice be le kamni — We welcome the decision of the committee.
06:22 < mensi> :Comment: pajni is for judging matters, jdice is for actual decisions, cuxna is for deciding (choosing) on something out
06:22 < mensi> of options.
06:22 < mensi> :Related words: pajni, cuxna, manri
06:22 < Ilmen> en: fapro
06:22 < mensi> fapro = x1 opposes/balances/contends against opponent(s) x2 (person/force ind./mass) about x3 (abstract). |>>> Also
06:22 < mensi> resists.  See also bandu, bradi, darlu, damba, jivna, lanxe, rivbi, sarji, xarnu. |>>>
06:22 < mensi> officialdata
06:23 < Ilmen> maybe {daupro} could work, but it's a lujvo
06:23 < gleki> jb:/full fapro
06:23 < mensi> 14 da se tolcri: fapro, bandu, bradi, damba, darlu, i'a, jdari, jivna, lanxe, renvi, rivbi, sarji, tolpro,
06:23 < mensi> xarnu
06:23 < Ilmen> jbo: fapro
06:23 < mensi> fapro = x1 dukti x2 lo ka ce'u zukte ja ckaji ma kau se ra'a x3 .i x1 to'e kansa ja jivna ja damba ja bradi ja jamna x2
06:23 < mensi> x3 |>>> dukti; zukte; ckaji; kansa; jivna; damba; bradi; jamna |>>> xorxes
06:23 < gleki> jb: tolpro
06:23 < mensi> tolpro [< to'e fapro ≈ To'e* fapro*] = tolpro — x1(entity)  surrenders, yields to  x2(entity)  in  x3(entity, property
06:23 < mensi> of x1) ; x1 consents to do x3
06:23 < mensi> :mi pu tolpro lo pendo lo ka klama lo skina dinju — I accepted my friend's proposal to go to the cinema.
06:23 < mensi> :Comment: tugni is to agree with some statement, tolpro is to accept something and actually do it.
06:23 < mensi> :Related words: fapro, tugni, i'a, vi'o, bradi, darlu, damba, lanxe
06:23 < Ilmen> zo tolpro ua
06:23 < gleki> it's in La Bangu which LLG wont approve ofc.
06:24 < rutytar> doesn't approve or dissaproves?
06:24 < rutytar> *disapproves
06:24 < Ilmen> maybe {toltu'i}
06:25 < gleki> i just wont wait for any approval to happen. it wont happen soon due to formal reasons. and i want to update Wikipedia page earlier
06:25 < Ilmen> sounds weak, but may suffice
06:25 < gleki> why not {jdice}?
06:25 < Ilmen> jbo: darlu
06:25 < mensi> darlu = x1 sabji lo krinu be lo nu jinvi x2 .e nai x3  |>>> sabji; krinu; jinvi |>>>
06:25 < mensi> xorxes
06:26 < gleki> troci lo ka tugni ...
06:27 < Ilmen> maybe just a vague {simxu co darlu lo du'u makau...}
06:27 < gleki> troci lo ka simxu lo ka tugni
06:28 < gleki> .w dispute
06:28 < phenny> dispute — noun: 1. An argument or disagreement, a failure to agree, 2. Verbal controversy; contest by opposing argument or expression of opposing views or claims; controversial discussion; altercation; debate — verb: 1. (intr.) To contend in argument; to argue against something maintained, [...]
06:29 < Ilmen> (both of them have a different opinion, so simxu is likely needed; darlu has currently no sumti slot for the ones supporting the opposite stand, but with "co" the exact relation between simxu and darlu remains vague
06:29 < Ilmen> )
06:30 < gleki> Ilmen: you forgot {vau} before {ca'o}
06:30 < Ilmen> I used "ku"
06:30 < Ilmen> oh
06:30 < Ilmen> yeah
06:31 < gleki> i added one more lvel in mine so had to change back to {i ca bo}
06:31 < Ilmen> .i ca'o bo
06:31 < PrincessBecca> is there a word that combines mi'e and la'o? "I am non-Lojbanically named..."
06:32 < gleki> mi du la'o gy.PrincessBecca.gy.
06:32 < PrincessBecca> je'e
06:32 < gleki> if in vocative form then idk
06:33 < Ilmen> en: da'oi
06:33 < mensi> da'oi = [DOI] attitudinal attribution |>>> Whereas dai simply marks an attitudinal as applying to someone other than the
06:33 < mensi> speaker, da'oi explicitly attributes the preceding attitudinal.  In particular, dai is equivalent to da'oi na'e bo mi.
06:33 < mensi> |>>> daniel
06:33 < Ilmen> en: do'oi
06:33 < mensi> do'oi = [DOhOI] generic single-word generic vocative marker; identifies intended listener with a single, possibly
06:33 < mensi> non-Lojban word, delimited by pauses (in speech) or by whitespace (in writing). |>>> The intent is that it is allowed
06:33 < mensi> everywhere in the grammar where DOI and COI are. See also zo'oi, la'oi, me'oi, ra'oi. Not similar to co'oi. Equivalent
06:33 < mensi> to doi la'oi. |>>> danr
06:33 < PrincessBecca> if in my twitter bio i said {bau lo spranto mi du la'o zoi @frenezulino zoi}
06:33 < Ilmen> There's {do'oi}
06:34 < Ilmen> but it's experimental and I don't remember having witnessed it being used
06:34 < PrincessBecca> le spranto*
06:34 < Ilmen> so I'd stick with {mi'e la'oi/la'o...}
06:34 < PrincessBecca> or no, lo is fine because it's a language modal
06:34 < gleki> zoi zoi @frenezulino zoi spero cmene do
06:34 < PrincessBecca> :)
06:34 < PrincessBecca> quite elegant
06:34 < gleki> just "@frenezulino is Esperantic name of yours"
06:34 < PrincessBecca> en: spero
06:34 < mensi> spero = x1 pertains to Esperanto language/culture in aspect x2 |>>> selpahi
06:35 < PrincessBecca> en: spranto
06:35 < mensi> spranto = x1 reflects Esperanto language/culture/community in aspect x2. |>>> Cf. esperanton, bangepu'o. |>>>
06:35 < mensi> tijlan
06:35 < Ilmen> {zenba lo ka cupra lo xo kau brife} -- same as with xo kau va'e: why using xo kau here?
06:35 < PrincessBecca> what's the difference?
06:35 < Ilmen> {zenba lo ka brife cupra} .e'u
06:35 < gleki> Ilmen: because otherwise it will sound slike "the process itself increases, not how much wind is produced"
06:36 < gleki> xokau va'e cupra lo brife != cupra lo xo kau brife
06:36 < Ilmen> well, what is {zenba lo ka cupra}?
06:37 < Ilmen> another option is {zenba lo ka tsali fa lo se cupra brife}, but it's long
06:37 < gleki> if you dont use {kau} there, i wont argue for/against any point
06:37 < gleki> ne can assume it means "t raise itself in the degree, in how intensely you produce something", not in how much product you get
06:38 < gleki> one can assume it means "to raise itself in the degree, in how intensely you produce something", not in how much product you get
06:38 < gleki> i.e. the same as {xokau va'e cupra}
06:38 < Ilmen> well, it's just not very precise
06:38 < gleki> or maybe {xokau va'e lo broda ~= jei broda}
06:39 < gleki> and {ni broda ~= broda sela'u makau}
06:39 < Ilmen> a lot of predicates are such that I'm not sure what they mean when used with zenba, for example. i.e. {zenba lo ka ciska} etc
06:39 < Ilmen> as they aren't really associated with a specific scale
06:39 < gleki> this is something La Bangu hasnt formalized yet. I mean sometimes you need {kau} or alternatives
06:41 < Ilmen> What increases is the strenght of the wind, ienai pei. Ideally is should be {zilzena fa lo ni tsali fa lo brife poi by by cupra}
06:41 < mensi> ei mi tugni
06:42 < Ilmen> but it's long .u'i
06:42 < Ilmen> maybe {lo brife poi se cupra cu tsali zenba..}
06:42 < Ilmen> ~ poi by by cupra cu..
06:45 < Ilmen> { ro nu lo brife poi by by cupra cu tsali zenba cu rinka su'o nu le litru zu’e ri zenba lo ka se tagji le kosta }
06:45 < Ilmen> .e'u
06:45 < Ilmen> (also, why using "pu" again here? It may sound as if it was even earlier as the previous utterance, if misinterpreted ju'o nai)
06:45 < gleki> yes, one has to decide whther by default it's va'e or sela'u in zenba2
06:46 < Ilmen> in my interpretation, zenba2 is a binary ka
06:46 < Ilmen> but then, it's just my interpretation. I'm waiting for something more convincing :)
06:46 < gleki> then what's the value of it
06:47 < gleki> i dont want 1/0
06:47 < gleki> i need a scale with more values in it
06:47 < Ilmen> {mi zenba lo ka ce'u ce'u se nilbra}
06:47 < Ilmen> (I increase in what is my size)
06:48 < Ilmen> yet that doesn't mean zenba2 cannot be a "ni". Actually, that all depends on what "ni" actually means.
06:49 < gleki> for me {kau} is as important as {ce'u} and {ke'a} since it can be placed in any place withing the bridi so specify where the scaling happens
06:50 < gleki> *to specify
06:50 < Ilmen> well, you can think that in ka-bridi ma kau == ce'u, and xo kau == mo'e ce'u
06:51 < gleki> there are two ce'u in zenba2 then
06:51 < Ilmen> as du'u-kau doesn't seem to make sense in ka-abstraction, it's maybe safe to assume kau means a different thing in ka-abstraction
06:51 < Ilmen> at least that' how it is in usage
06:52 < gleki> {pu troci lo ka cuxna lo traji} pei
06:52 < Ilmen> jdice is nice
06:53 < gleki> it's {makau} is indeed a problem
06:54 < Ilmen> darlu troci lo ka da poi me vo'a zo'u ce'u tugysi'u lo du'u da vlipa traji
06:54 < gleki> je'e
06:55 < gleki> troci lo ka simxu lo ka tugni
06:55 < Ilmen> "they try to be such that there exist at least one X among them such that they agree that X is the most powerful"
06:55 < Ilmen> doesn't sound bad
06:56 < Ilmen> I hope it's not too verbose
06:57 < gleki> and da cant be moved into tugni3
06:57 < gleki> i mean its declaration
06:58 < Ilmen> if it were so, they'd be trying to agree that one of them is stronger than the other, and not to agree on which of them is the stroingest
06:59 < Ilmen> ie nai pei
06:59 < mensi> ei mi tugni
07:00 < Ilmen> note: me vo'a traji is a tanru ;)
07:00 < gleki> ni’o la berti brife jo'u la solri pu troci lo ka cuxna lo poi me vo'a vau traji lo ka vlipa
07:00 < gleki> pei
07:01 < gleki> ni’o la berti brife jo'u la solri pu darlu troci lo ka cuxna lo poi me vo'a vau traji lo ka vlipa
07:01 < Ilmen> lo ka vlipa is in cuxna3? ua nai
07:01 < gleki> exp: ni’o la berti brife jo'u la solri pu darlu troci lo ka cuxna lo poi me vo'a vau traji lo ka vlipa
07:01 < mensi> (ni'o [{la <berti brife> KU} {jo'u <la solri KU>}] [CU {pu <darlu troci>} {lo <ka (¹CU [cuxna {lo <(²poi [CU {me vo'a MEhU} vau] KUhO²) traji> KU} {lo <ka (²CU [vlipa VAU]²) KEI> KU}] VAU¹)
07:01 < mensi> KEI> KU} VAU])
07:02 < gleki> oh
07:02 < gleki> u'u
07:02 < gleki> exp: ni’o la berti brife jo'u la solri pu darlu troci lo ka cuxna lo poi me vo'a vau traji be lo ka vlipa
07:02 < mensi> (ni'o [{la <berti brife> KU} {jo'u <la solri KU>}] [CU {pu <darlu troci>} {lo <ka (¹CU [cuxna {lo <(²poi [CU {me vo'a MEhU} vau] KUhO²) (²traji [be {lo <ka (³CU [vlipa VAU]³) KEI> KU} BEhO]²
07:02 < mensi> )> KU} VAU]¹) KEI> KU} VAU])
07:03 < Ilmen> that doesn't seem to mean they try to agree on which is the strongest
07:03 < gleki> ni’o la berti brife jo'u la solri pu darlu troci lo ka cuxna lo jai rai vlipa poi me vo'a
07:03 < Ilmen> To me, it means they choose the strongest among them for something unspecified
07:03 < gleki> they tried to choose the strongest of them
07:04 < gleki> they tried to choose the strongest that is among them
07:04 < Ilmen> that doesn't mean they disagree on which is the strongest, does it?
07:04 < gleki> what do  you mean "for something unspecified"?
07:04 < Ilmen> mi se cfipu
07:05 < Ilmen> Honestly I don't really know what cuxna means, I feel like there's a sumti slot missing, it's why I created {cu'uxna} .u'i
07:05 < gleki> cuxna = to choose
07:06 < gleki> cuxna lo jai rai vlipa poi me vo’a = to choose the strongest that is among them
07:06 < Ilmen> maybe I just don't know what "to choose" means .u'i
07:06 < Ilmen> en: cu'uxna
07:06 < mensi> cu'uxna = x1 is aware that x1 can be in relation x4 with all of x3 (plural) and choose to be in relation x4 with x2
07:06 < mensi> (which is among x3) |>>> See also cuxna |>>> Ilmen
07:07 < Ilmen> .u'i se'i
07:07 < gleki> definitely my solution can include cases where byby says "no, you are strong, doi la solri" which is oikely not the case here
07:07 < gleki> *likely
07:08 < gleki> Ilmen: please add your solution to your translation
07:08 < Ilmen> Basically I feel that cuxna lack a choice purpose slot, and adding tezu'e isn't satisfying to me
07:08 < Ilmen> *lacks
07:10 < Ilmen> Other people seem to have no problem with cuxna, it's maybe just me who doesn't understand. Anyway I've made cu'uxna so that I have a predicate that satisfies me
07:10 < Ilmen> and will maybe never be used by anyone else .u'i
07:11 < gleki> we need to be vague enough in this transaltion to avoid edge cases
07:19 < Ilmen> Even if I were to use {cu'uxna} there, it would result in something like {lo re mei cu troci lo ka cu'uxna da vo'a lo ka simxu lo ka tugni fi lo du'u vlipa traji}, which is just as long as the da-version
07:20 < Ilmen> I still prefer {lo re mei cu simxu co darlu lo du'u ma kau poi me vo'a cu traji lo ka vlipa}, which is shorter
07:20 < Ilmen> and seems okay to me
07:22 < gleki> eh, tanru
07:22 < gleki> and that's that problematic {makau}
07:24 < Ilmen> well, then { lo re mei cu troci lo ka da poi me vo'a zo'u simxu lo ka tugni lo du'u da vlipa traji } is the safest
07:24 < Ilmen> if {poi'i} were approved, we could save about two syllables
07:24 < Ilmen> :q
07:25 < Ilmen> anyway it's about only 3 syllables more than the "simxu co darlu" one
07:26 < gleki> {makau} is the most problematic for me here. tanru are okay of  course. the more cheating the better
07:27 < Ilmen> And indeed we could save more by using {tugysi'u} :)
07:27 < Ilmen> ku'i .i'a
07:27 < gleki> jb: darlu
07:27 < mensi> darlu = darlu — x1(entity)  argues for stance  x2(proposition)  against stance  x3(proposition)
07:27 < mensi> :lo se darlu — stance (in a discussion).
07:27 < mensi> :loi enge pu darlu lo nu lo dargu cu se stuzi lo berti vau lo nu lo dinju cu se zbasu fi lo rokci — Engineers argued for
07:27 < mensi> the road to be located to the north and against the house to be built of rock.
07:27 < mensi> :Comment: opponent is not necessary.
07:27 < mensi> :Related words: fapro, jamna, sarji, talsa, sumti, tugni, casnu, damba, bradi, tavla
07:30 < gleki> ilmen, i cant stand darlu here. i can't stand it anywhere :P
07:31 < Ilmen> ie .u'i
07:33 < Ilmen> {traji lo ka clira snada} isn't best, it has a wrong-focus-like problem: it seems that it's the most successful, and not earliest
07:34 < gleki> here again where is the scale? i'd say {traji lo ka pu xo kau da }
07:34 < Ilmen> I've changed to {traji lo ka clira fa lo nu snada}, which is about the same as {traji lo ka jai clira fai lo ka snada}
07:35 < gleki> where is ce'u then
07:35 < Ilmen> ce'u snada
07:35 < Ilmen> it cannot be in clira1, because of fa
07:36 < gleki> who knows, ay be one can assume fa ce'u fa lonu ...
07:36 < gleki> who knows, may be one can assume fa ce'u fa lonu ...
07:36 < Ilmen> it could have been just "traji lo ka snada jai clira", if we didn't want to put a big sumti into snada2 :)
07:39 < gleki> also about tags. sisti => co'u, gasnu = jai gau etc.
07:39 < gleki> but that's probably doesnt matter
07:40 < gleki> we can't replace {zenba} with a tag :)
07:40 < gleki> anyway
07:43 < Ilmen> well a tag for zilzena does make sense, although I'd prefer a cmavo solution (xoi, sei..) to adding new tags
07:44 < gleki> lo ka gasnu lo nu le litru co'u dasni - here {jai gau} leads to some ugly results
07:45 < Ilmen> lo ka lo litru gau ce'u co'u dasni..
07:45 < gleki> maybe
07:45 < Ilmen> gau ce'u is about as long as gasnu lo nu (well it has fewer consonants); maybe a simple "lo ka gau ku lo litru..."
07:47 < gleki> ku’i ro nu brife tsali zenba  - this is fine. but {zenba lo ka se tagji lo kosta} is not
07:48 < Ilmen> well, isn't niltagji a reasonable scale?
07:48 < gleki> tugni lo du'u da vlipa traji - add {fi}
07:48 < Ilmen> (thightness?)
07:48 < Ilmen> .oi ie
07:48 < gleki> do niknikolase
07:49 < Ilmen> ki'a
07:49 < gleki> tarti tai tu'a la nik nikolas
07:49 < gleki> i va'i do ni tciione
07:49 < Ilmen> .u'i
07:50 < Ilmen> There are predicates that seem fine to make a scale out of them (barda / nilbra, clira / nilclira, tsali / niltsali, glare / nilglare...)
07:51 < gleki> lo traji be lo ka clira fa lo nu ce’u snada  -- now i wonder how could i change back to {jai rai}
07:51 < Ilmen> and others that do not (ciska / ni ciska??...)
07:51 < Ilmen> but that's just a feeling
07:51 < gleki> ie, that's why i avoid ni/jei
07:51 < Ilmen> and niltagji seems okay to me
07:52 < Ilmen> although I don't know of any standard unit for measuring that :p
07:53 < gleki> if possible we should avoid ni and kau everywhere
07:53 < gleki> here
07:54 < gleki> i think for "early" we can use {ze'i xo kau da} although in ^-1
07:54 < gleki> toltraji then
07:54 < Ilmen> well, you can tanru-ize to {lo prenu cu kosta se tagji zenba}
07:55 < Ilmen> ze'i xo kau da = how many durations/event is the duration of (the thing described by the bridi)
07:55 < Ilmen> it'd rather be ze'i ma kau
07:56 < gleki> that's how long but we need how fast
07:56 < Ilmen> xoi ma kau nilsutra...
08:02 < gleki> im gonna ask Everson something in private
08:04 < Ilmen> I think glottal stops should be written, even if replaced by something other than a dot
08:04 < Ilmen> maybe a bigger dot, the letter 'q', whatever .u'i
08:04 < Ilmen> He said he used a bigger apostroph for the glottal stop letter of polynesian
08:07 < Ilmen> « ʻOkina (ʻoki 'cut' + -na '-ing') is the modern Hawaiian name for the symbol (a letter) that represents the glottal stop. »
08:08 < Ilmen> It seems that in language in which the apostroph stands for a glottal stop, the abostroph doesn't count when maying the first letter a capital
08:09 < Ilmen> ta'o mi de'a jundi co'o
08:17 < gocti> momomo .i sei tcidu la xorxe cu djica lo nu lo ji'a sai ba'e *mekso* na ka'e se pagbu lo lervla
08:43 < gleki> mi na zgana
09:25 < LeoBeltran> coi ro do
09:29 < niftg> coi
09:29 < niftg> rodo
09:30 < LeoBeltran> coi do
09:30 < LeoBeltran> .i do mo
09:33 < gleki> LeoBeltran: coi
09:35 < LeoBeltran> .i mi  su'u cilre
09:35 < LeoBeltran> Gleki, may I ask a question about lojban?
09:36 < Ilmen> coi
09:37 < gleki> LeoBeltran: yes, this is what this channel is for
09:37 < LeoBeltran> Great
09:38 < LeoBeltran> I don't understand abstractions
09:38 < gleki> dansu - to dance
09:38 < gleki> lo dansu - dancer/dancers
09:38 < gleki> lo nu dansu - dancing
09:38 < Ilmen> (a dancing)
09:38 < gleki> gleki - to be happy
09:38 < LeoBeltran> And {du'u}?
09:38 < gleki> lo nu gleki - being happy
09:38 < Ilmen> ti dansu -- this is dancing
09:39 < gleki> {du'u} is the same as {nu} but is used for verbs of facts.
09:39 < Ilmen> ti nu dansu -- this is an event of dancing / this is a dancing / a dance
09:39 < gleki> once sec
09:39 < gleki> one sec
09:39 < gleki> ti dansu -- this is dancing <- ambiguous in English.
09:40 < Ilmen> well yeah
09:40 < gleki> rather {ti dansu} - this thing dances
09:40 < Ilmen> "this dances"
09:40 < gleki> now to {du'u}
09:40 < gleki> mi djuno lo du'u do stati
09:40 < gleki> I know that you are smart.
09:40 < gleki> In places that describe facts the particle du'u is used (instead of nu).
09:40 < gleki> in general you just remember verbs that use du'u places
09:41 < gleki> in La Bangu dictionary such place are marked as "proposition"
09:41 < gleki> mw.lojban.org/papri/La_Bangu:_Dictionary_with_Examples
09:41 < gleki> *such places
09:41 < gleki> If by mistake you use nu instead of du'u you will still be understood. But usually people speaking fluent Lojban distinguish these particles. You may just look into the dictionary: proposition marks places where du'u should go before the clause.
09:42 < Ilmen> LeoBeltran: Most most most of the time nu and du'u are used together with "lo": lo nu,  lo du'u
09:42 < Ilmen> lo nu + bridi ~= that + sentence
09:43 < Ilmen> mi djuno lo du'u do klama = I know that you go
09:43 < Ilmen> mi viska lo nu do dansu = I see that you dance
09:44 < Ilmen> (I see your dancing)
09:45 < Ilmen> du'u is for facts/informations (which can be true or false), whereas nu is for events and thing that take place and can be seen/perceived etc
09:45 < derpson> is do = you?
09:45 < Ilmen> yes
09:45 < Ilmen> coi la .derpson.
09:46 < derpson> coi ro do
09:49 < LeoBeltran> Thank you very much! This channel is very helpful
09:49 < Ilmen> LeoBeltran: As for {su'u}, it's rarely used in actual usage; it's just a wildcard abstractor, that can replace any other abstractor
09:49 < Ilmen> so anywhere you can use "lo nu" or "lo du'u", you can say "lo su'u" instead
09:50 < gleki> my records show that i never used {su'u}
09:50 < Ilmen> .u'i
09:53 < Ilmen> LeoBeltran: The third most common abstractor (after nu and du'u) is "ka"; this one is a little more complicated to grasp, and is usually teached later
09:54 < Ilmen> "ka" is for expressing properties and relations, which are incomplete propositions (it's similar to infinitives in natural languages)
09:54 < Ilmen> lo ka melbi = beauty / beautifulness (the property of being beautiful)
09:55 < Ilmen> lo ka sipna = sleepness (the property of being asleep)
09:56 < Ilmen> lo nu (zo'e) sipna = the event of (something/somebody) being asleep
09:56 < Ilmen> lo ka sipna = sleepness (the abstract property)
10:21 < LeoBeltran> Thank you, Ilmen
10:22 < LeoBeltran> Is there any forum of Lojban?
10:24  * nuzba @NewsdeskHACK: Lojban (http://wikipedia.org) http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1FVzX2T]
10:24  * nuzba @BestOfHN: Lojban (http://wikipedia.org) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Fn0McH]
10:24 < Ilmen> There are the mailing lists, a free forum ( http://lojban.freeforums.net/ ), a reddit…
10:24 < Ilmen> but the main discussion places are mostly the mailing lists and IRC
10:25 < Ilmen> there are also weekly vocal chats via Mumble
10:26 < LeoBeltran> Yes, I knew that
10:26 < gleki> LeoBeltran: the main places of activity are listed here: mw.lojban.org mailing lists is what is similar to forums. Facebook group and Reddit group can also serve that purpose.
10:26 < Ilmen> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lojban, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lojban-beginners, https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bpfk-list
10:27 < Ilmen> ^ the three main lists
10:27 < Ilmen> sorry for the trailing comma that break the urls
10:27 < LeoBeltran> Thanks
10:33  * nuzba @lai_krtisfranks: Why have brivla with a fixed set of referents for each terbri? Why not have interdependent terbri that are toggleable? #Lojban [http://bit.ly/1Fn1xCz]
10:35  * nuzba @lai_krtisfranks: In other words, the sumti (a number) filling one terbri would toggle the value/definition of another terbri. #Lojban #nBirds1Pie [http://bit.ly/1FVAIc4]
10:38 < gleki> uat
10:46  * nuzba @SotiriosVrachas: "Lojban" http://ift.tt/1oF7zuV [http://bit.ly/1Fn2CKz]
11:02  * nuzba @464161niftg: http://jwodder.freeshell.org/lojban/jvozba.cgi?tanru=pruxi+makfa+karda+jivna&vlalei=cmene Jvozbaで作れるcmeneだと、長いrafsiの後にはやはりyが挟まれるのだけど、これをしておけばcmeneからでも確実に元のtanruに戻せるんよね。 [http://bit.ly/1FVC72C]
11:14 < lablanu> coi .i ma fasnu
11:16 < gleki> mi stika la uikipedi'as
11:18 < lablanu> ma do se gunka
11:19 < gocti> (to ki'u ma vimcu lo me la .voksigid. je la .lojysk. moi .i ka'e ku su'o .admine ri'a ganse gi'e pante su'o na srana toi)
11:19 < gleki> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#The_North_Wind_and_the_Sun
11:20 < gleki> gocti: xu vajni bangu
11:20 < gleki> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lojban#Lojsk.2C_Voksigid.2C_gua.5Cspi
11:20 < gocti> ua .u'u
11:20 < gocti> .i pu na ganse tu'a lo nunsnu papri
11:27 < gocti> za'a mutce zmadu xamgu sisisi mutce co xamgu zmadu lo laldo
11:29 < gocti> {lo poi me vo'a traji [...]} - xu ma'i do lo 3 ja 4 moi pe zo traji jai ckape fai lo nu pilno
11:30 < zipcpi> pe'i la .xorxes. cu me lo ba'e no moi me bysyfyky i'au zo'o
11:30 < gocti> cu jai ckape
11:30 < gocti> zipcpi: mi tugni i ie mi tugni
11:36 < zipcpi> Question... when you say {lo broda .e lo brode poi brodi}, the {poi} clause attaches only to {lo brode}, right? What do you do if you want to attach to both?
11:37 < gocti> lo broda .e lo brode vu'o poi brodi
11:37 < zipcpi> Cool. I'd put that in the finale of my translated song if it didn't ruin the entire meter
11:38 < zipcpi> As it is I have to make do it only attaching to one thing lol
11:38 < zipcpi> *with it
11:39 < zipcpi> Still couldn't figure out what to do with the reprise bridge. The thing I put in there doesn't really fit
11:39 < gocti> If you're willing to do some nu bauspo, try {lo broda je lo broda fa poi brodi}
11:39 < zipcpi> u'i
11:40 < gocti> alta: ti je ta fa poi mo
11:40 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [yY] but "o" found.
11:40 < zipcpi> Awr
11:40 < gocti> za'a pu vimcu
11:42 < ldlework> what's the difference between simsa and jibni
11:43 < gocti> pe'i lo te jibni is always a measurable quantity (whatever that means)
11:43 < gocti> simsa fi lo ka blanu -> similar *in that* they're blue
11:44 < gocti> jibni fi lo ka blanu -> similar in how blue they are
11:44 < zipcpi> Also pe'i {lo te simsa} is what is *similar* between those two things, while {lo te jibni} is only what is *approximant* between the two things
11:45 < zipcpi> It's a subtle semantic difference but I think it's important
11:45 < lablanu> ie
11:45 < gocti> (to mi de'a toi)
11:45 < lablanu> I like how explicit it is
11:46 < zipcpi> I mean, say if you're right next to me, {mi simsa do lo ka se zvati} just feels wrong
11:48 < zipcpi> IIRC -> {ba'anai ju'oru'e} or {ba'anai ju'ocu'i}, depending on context?
11:48 < lablanu> That aligns well with the idea that the location of atoms is unique.
11:48 < zipcpi> *depending on how certain you are
11:53 < lablanu> en: ju'oru'e
11:53 < mensi> lo nu mulno sisku zo'u: y no da se tolcri
11:53 < lablanu> rafsi:ju'o
11:53 < mensi> zo djuno se rafsi zo'oi ju'o
11:53 < lablanu> rafsi:djuno
11:53 < mensi> zo'oi jun .e zo'oi ju'o .e zo'oi djun rafsi zo djuno
11:53 < gleki> gocti: na ckape i snuti cuxna fa mi
11:54 < zipcpi> It's just "ru'e" attached to "ju'o"
11:54 < zipcpi> Like {uiru'e}
11:55 < lablanu> Well, {ju'o} is also a rafsi for {djuno} and {ru'e} is also a rafsi for {pruce}, so {ju'oru'e} would not be {ju'o ru'e}
11:55 < zipcpi> Er, no. Lujvo doesn't work that way
11:55 < lablanu> it would be "know-process"
11:56 < niftg> {ju'onru'e}?
11:56 < zipcpi> lujvo must be made so that it contains a consonant cluster. All brivla have a consonant cluster somewhere within the first five [non-y and non-'] letters
11:57 < lablanu> Yup, was just thinking about that. You're right.
11:58 < zipcpi> It's all part of Lojban morphology rules, such that a phonemic stream can't resolve to more than one word group, e.g. "propagate" / "prop a gate"
11:59 < gleki> jb:jibni
11:59 < mensi> jibni = jibni — x1(entity)  is near or close to  x2(entity)  in  x3(property of x1)
11:59 < mensi> :lo jibni — near.
11:59 < mensi> :zo xagri zo tabra cu jibni lo ka se smuni — The terms &quot;pipe instrument&quot; and &quot;horn&quot; are close in
11:59 < mensi> their meanings.
11:59 < mensi> :Comment: See notes for simsa.
11:59 < mensi> :Related words: simsa, darno, nenri, vanbi, jbini, lamji, zvati, cpana, bartu, diklo,
11:59 < mensi> stuzi
11:59 < gleki> jb:simsa
11:59 < mensi> simsa = simsa — x1(entity)  is similar to  x2(entity)  in  x3(property of x1 and x2 with kau)
11:59 < mensi> :lo simsa — similar.
11:59 < mensi> :lo skapi be le ninmu pu simsa lo snime lo ka blabi — Her skin was white as snow.
11:59 < mensi> :mi simsa lo'e cipni lo ka zifre — I am free as a bird.
11:59 < mensi> :do simsa fi so'i da fe lo mi mensi — You are a lot like my sister.
11:59 < mensi> :lo mi pendo mi simsa lo ka xabju ma kau i lo mi pendo mi jibni lo ka xabju ma kau — My friend and I live in similar
11:59 < mensi> apartments. My friend and I live nearby.
11:59 < mensi> :Comment: jibni is used when the difference is something generally measurable, whereas simsa is about difference in
11:59 < mensi> quality.
11:59 < mensi> :Related words: dunli, frica, mintu, panra, simlu, vrici
12:00 < zipcpi> How's {xu ka'e catra lo'i na jmive} for "Can you kill something that isn't alive"?
12:01 < zipcpi> Trying to master the difference between {lo'e} and {lo'i}
12:01 < ldlework> the difference between lo'e and lo'i is the same argument as lo and le
12:02 < zipcpi> While {lo'e mlatu cu se tuple vo da} -> "Cats have four legs"
12:02 < ldlework> I'm saddened that you've chosen veridicality as your usage :/
12:02 < zipcpi> lo'e = the archetypical cat. Not all cats have four legs, due to genetic defect or trauma
12:02 < zipcpi> lol
12:04 < zipcpi> Well pe'i if you want to use lo in a non-veridical manner you can use {lo pe'i}, {lo da'i}, {lo xa'i}, or even {lo zi'a} depending on context
12:04 < zipcpi> *{lo pe'a} I mean
12:04 < ldlework> same with lo'i and lo'e
12:04  * zipcpi nods
12:05 < zipcpi> Or just {lo je'unai} if you can't be bothered to figure out which is correct :p
12:05 < ldlework> lo'e should be an indication to your listener that the set is contextually relevant, or is about to be
12:05 < ldlework> pe'i anyway
12:06 < ldlework> where lo'i may or may not be contextually relevant. iow, you may or may not be speaking about cats in general.
12:06 < ldlework> (because for the vast majority of things, its not important whether the target of speech is contextually relevant or general speech and when it is, it usually is obvious which it is without help from the speaker)
12:07 < gleki> i think all those lo'e/lo'i should be replaced with lo+tags
12:07 < gleki> and loi too
12:07 < zipcpi> There could be an argument there
12:07 < ldlework> gleki: could be more flexible and less gadri over all seems like a good goal
12:08 < Ilmen> coi
12:08 < ldlework> coi pendo
12:08 < gleki>  new wonderful page with jquery embedded and zero jquery functions used! Isn't it wonderful? http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/o/ See the code.
12:08 < zipcpi> Well I'm still going from the official definitions because I don't know what the new proposed ones are. I know that's not very BSFK :p
12:09 < Ilmen> gleki: also, lo'e broda = lo lomkai be lo ka broda --> lo broda lomkai
12:09 < gleki> li'a
12:09 < Ilmen> (maybe lomkai is synonymous to "fadni", but I don't know)
12:10 < ldlework> Ilmen: do you find explicit distinctions in veridicality between speaker and listener is of much use?
12:12 < zipcpi> But in my opinion {lo'i} or whatever replacement is cooked up for it should refer to ... errm... the za'e "essence" of whatever it is. Compare {xu ka'e catra lo na jmive}; which also translates to "Can you kill something that isn't alive", but refers to a particular thing(s) that aren't alive (to whatever extent of veridicality you are willing to accept)
12:12 < ldlework> ta'o I have an idea for an interesting la jbogu'e project
12:12 < Ilmen> I don't know. I don't remember having felt much the need for non-veridicality, but then maybe I've never used Lojban in the appropriate context for this
12:12 < zipcpi> While {lo'i} refers to the... essence of the set... I'm not up to my snuff on philosophical terms :p
12:13 < ldlework> zipcpi: just consider the difference between definite and indefinite descriptions
12:13 < ldlework> "Cats have four legs" "The cat has four legs"
12:13 < ldlework> The first gets at what you want, by being indefinite, not veridical.
12:13 < ldlework> imho
12:13 < zipcpi> {lo'e} means "archetypical"
12:14 < ldlework> zipcpi: I know how it is defined
12:14 < ldlework> I'm trying to take you somewhere else
12:14 < zipcpi> Yeah but the difference between {lo'e} and {lo} isn't about veridicality
12:14 < ldlework> The difference between lo'e and lo'i is though
12:14 < ldlework> as it is defined anyway
12:15 < ldlework> for any 'o' based gadri, there is an 'e' based non-veridical version of that gadri
12:15 < ldlework> The creators must have opined that veridicality is very important to the comprehension of our listeners
12:16 < Ilmen> "lo" can do both "Cats have four legs" and "The cat has four legs", depending on what is in the universe of discourse (so, depending on the context)
12:16 < ldlework> Ilmen: yeah, its a subtle thing to remember that lo contains both
12:16 < zipcpi> Yes I know "lo" is never "wrong"
12:16 < ldlework> and le lets you be explicit about non-veridicality
12:16 < zipcpi> I just like to be more explicit when possible :p
12:17 < Ilmen> If I were to say those with more precision, I'd say {ro mlatu cu se tuple vo da} for the former, and {lo mlatu poi co'e cu se tuple vo da} for the latter
12:17 < ldlework> I think this is a good system, lo containing both senses and le providing the ability to explicit about the less often occuring sense.
12:17 < ldlework> I just think it should be definite referentiality and not veridicality that is signaled.
12:18 < zipcpi> I actually believe that is correct for {lo} and {le}
12:18 < zipcpi> But when you get to the others it becomes hairier
12:18 < ldlework> Ilmen: yeah those are precise. I think in colloquial speech you can efficiently get by with {lo mlatu cu se tuple vo da} and {le mlatu cu se tuple ci da}
12:18 < ldlework> zipcpi: I don't think so. Instead of cats, let's talk about groups of children and their various properties.
12:19 < zipcpi> Ilmen: There's also {lo mlatu na'o se tuple vo da}
12:19 < ldlework> Or categories of fashion. Or whatever.
12:19 < Ilmen> jbo: na'o
12:19 < mensi> na'o = [TAhE] fi'o jai ve'a cafne |>>> cafne |>>> xorxes
12:19 < Ilmen> na'o doesn't really change the referent of "lo mlatu" tho
12:20 < zipcpi> But in my opinion referentiality and veridicality are tied in a sense
12:20 < zipcpi> In the sense that they tend to go in opposite directions
12:20 < ldlework> zipcpi: Hey as long as you're riding the definite referentiality train, I don't care how you get there :)
12:21 < zipcpi> So {lo} can be both veridical and indefinite, while {le} can be both non-veridical and definite
12:21 < ldlework> Yes that is the official definition
12:21 < ldlework> Except this is horribly complicated and hard to teach
12:21 < ldlework> And the value seems to evaporate when you consider that non-veridicality is so unimportant
12:21 < Ilmen> lo broda = the plural of everything that brodas in our universe of discourse
12:21 < ldlework> Whether something is marked veridical or not, rarely ends in confusion in our listeners
12:21 < zipcpi> It's not too different to how English uses a vs the, except that that tends to produce a lot more {le nu} than is often desirable
12:21 < gleki> 12:13 < zipcpi> {lo'e} means "archetypical" <-- the only reasonable definition. not very elucidating but nothing more reasonable exists
12:22 < ldlework> The semantic result of the veridical and non-veridical versions of statemetns are so different that our listeners are usually able to detect which is most likely
12:22 < ldlework> even with very little context
12:22 < ldlework> the need for an explict marker of veridicality is near zero
12:22 < ldlework> and only useful for the most technical of contexts
12:22 < ldlework> however definite referentiality useful like.. all the time
12:22 < ldlework> yes languagues exist where it doesn't get used at all
12:22 < zipcpi> Well, when I say "a cat".... it tends to be an actual cat, not a cat in a painting.
12:23 < ldlework> zipcpi: sure, english doesn't have the benefit of a binary marker
12:23 < zipcpi> While when I say "the cat", I could very well be referring to a cat in a painting
12:23 < ldlework> 'a' doesn't always mean one or the other
12:23 < ldlework> and neither does lo
12:23 < gleki> if it's so hard to explain and we like dogs must smeel non veridicality maybe the whole concept fo veridicality is broken an dinstead we should stick to syntactic/semantic analysis oof discourse like i proposed in my view of {le}?
12:23 < ldlework> but if you are saying something where the interpretation between the definite interpretation and the indefinite one might be so close in meaning
12:23 < ldlework> they confuse your listener
12:24 < ldlework> you can use le to escape any possible confusion and let them you know that you're not speaking generally
12:24 < ldlework> but of same actual cat for sure
12:24 < zipcpi> Though I do believe in "universes of discourse" that may be not the same thing as what is "really real"
12:24 < ldlework> but whether you're calling something that's not technically a cat, a cat, being the result in confusion for your listener? I just don't see it happening a lot. And in those cases there is pe'u
12:25 < ldlework> zipcpi: sure, I don't mean "really real"
12:25 < zipcpi> Essentially, unmarked {xa'i}, {da'i}, or whatever
12:25 < ldlework> I mean "a specific one/s"
12:25 < Ilmen> non-veridicality also sound like nonce-names, la
12:25 < zipcpi> Or even the kurtynomvla {li'i'e} :p
12:25 < ldlework> vs, "any one you might think of yourself"
12:25 < Ilmen> if you refer to a cat paint as "The cat", to what extent "la mlatu" would be inappropriate?
12:26 < ldlework> Ilmen: names are special in that they are usually agreed upon
12:26 < ldlework> nonce-names sort of refute the utility of names in the first place
12:26 < Ilmen> je'e
12:26 < ldlework> they are a currency of referentiality
12:26 < ldlework> I think veridicality and non-veridicality does exist in our speech
12:27 < ldlework> I just think that when you compare a veridical interpretation and a non-verdicial interpretation of the same jufra, that
12:27 < Ilmen> you also have "lo mlatu pe'a"
12:27 < ldlework> the interprations usually differ so widely that the listener will be able to pick the most liekly one most of the time
12:27 < ldlework> because they are vastly different in resulting semantic meaning
12:27 < ldlework> but with definite and indefinite, the semantic meaning doesn't change as much
12:27 < ldlework> like saying all cats have three legs
12:27 < ldlework> vs that cat has three legs
12:28 < ldlework> I think context is so powerful that context even defeats confusion in definite referentiality too
12:28 < ldlework> which is why I don't think selpahi and others are totally wrong just always using lo
12:28 < ldlework> because its a practical observation that even definite referentiality probably doesn't confuse our listeners often
12:28 < gleki> ua la and na ba jatna co lojbo
12:28 < ldlework> who will take you seriously if you say all cats have 3 legs?
12:28 < ldlework> but
12:29 < ldlework> I think that is le is useful for the speaker
12:29 < ldlework> and it doesn't represent extra effort to them
12:29 < ldlework> then we make our listeners just *that* much more comfortable
12:29 < ldlework> by always disambiguating between general and relevant speech
12:29 < Ilmen> Also, I guess "a cat" is pretty often {su'o mlatu}
12:29 < ldlework> I mean I don't always, but its natural for me, coming from english
12:29 < Ilmen> or rather {pa mlatu}
12:30 < ldlework> "a man would defends his family no matter what"
12:30 < ldlework> english is bad to use
12:30 < zipcpi> I remember in the old wave lessons there was a similar thing about how to say "make a chicken out of clay" or something... not sure how it's rendered now; I should probably reread it sometime, there are probably lots I've forgotten
12:30 < ldlework> its definite articles are all just lo's
12:30 < ldlework> it has no real le
12:30 < ldlework> even 'the' is lo
12:31 < Ilmen> {ko zbasu lo jipci pe'a/pixra lo kliti}
12:31 < Ilmen> .e'u
12:31 < Ilmen> or su'o jipci
12:31 < Ilmen> pe'a/pixra
12:31 < ldlework> just say
12:31 < zipcpi> ie doi .ilmen.
12:31 < ldlework> ko zbasu pa jipci lo kliti
12:31 < gleki> lose tarmi be lo jipci
12:31 < Ilmen> (a pixra is not necessarily 2D)
12:32 < gleki> 1D
12:32 < gleki> zo'o
12:32 < zipcpi> ko zbasu pa da poi jipci lo kliti i'au zo'o
12:32 < ldlework> no listener will ever require you to make such a distinction pe'i
12:32 < ldlework> veridicality is a triviality
12:33 < Ilmen> ko zbasu pa jipci  -- here it seems to ask to make a true living chicken, unless context is enough to know it's a metaphor
12:33 < Ilmen> (which is the case here)
12:33 < ldlework> Ilmen: in which context wouldn't it be?
12:33 < ldlework> I can imagine fantastic ones
12:33 < ldlework> But not mundane ones
12:33 < Ilmen> to add more precision, you always have {pe'a} and {pe'a nai}
12:33 < ldlework> This is the power of lo
12:33 < ldlework> ie
12:33 < ldlework> well
12:34 < ldlework> this is the power of context*
12:34 < zipcpi> No, I still believe there is some use. {lo mlatu cu se tuple vo da} could refer to "a cat somewhere", "a cat I have in mind", or "the archetypical cat/cats in general"
12:34 < ldlework> yes of course
12:34 < zipcpi> But if I want to explicitly express the "archetypical cat" I believe {lo'e} is still useful
12:34 < ldlework> I don't think we need a gadri for that
12:35 < ldlework> We have predicates
12:35 < ldlework> It isn't an attribute so fundamental to speech that we need a grammatical article to denote the cases where we wish to make a semantic distinction
12:35 < Ilmen> By the past, I thought lo'e was "the archetype of"; but afterwards I've been taught it's actually "the/an archetypal..."
12:35 < ldlework> Ilmen: yeah it is the definite version of lo'i
12:35 < zipcpi> No, the difference is reflected even in English speech. "Cats have four legs"
12:36 < zipcpi> vs "A cat has four legs"
12:36 < ldlework> zipcpi: that's merely an indefinite reference
12:36 < Ilmen> (an archetype is an absract entity/concept, like a si'o, whereas an archetypal is just a real thing that happens to match perfectly an archetype)
12:36 < Ilmen> (if I'm not mistaken)
12:37 < ldlework> zipcpi: basically, I agree with your interpretation of lo'e and lo'i
12:37 < ldlework> I just think they are superflous
12:38 < ldlework> and use up cmavo, and add more gadri than is comfortable to teach and learn and even need for which there are plenty of other easy ways to access the same semantics
12:38 < zipcpi> What is the difference between "Cats have four legs" and "A cat has four legs"? It's definitely not {za'upa mlatu cu se tuple vo da} :p
12:38 < ldlework> plurality
12:38 < zipcpi> No
12:38 < zipcpi> You're thinking too literally
12:38 < ldlework> in english, the second might have a definite reference in some contexts
12:38 < ldlework> "What's wrong with that litter?"
12:39 < ldlework> "A cat has four legs"
12:39 < zipcpi> That's what I was trying to point out by mistranslating it as "za'upa"
12:39 < ldlework> ^ definite reference forced from context not grammar
12:39 < gleki> so'a lo mlatu cu se tuple vo da
12:39 < ldlework> zipcpi: pe'anai
12:39 < ldlework> its that easy
12:39 < zipcpi> Gleki = "almost all cats have four legs"
12:40 < Ilmen> I don't see much difference between both sentences
12:40 < ldlework> for a very rare semantic distinction
12:40 < ldlework> Ilmen: which ones?
12:41 < zipcpi> Sorry, I can't agree. Using too many unmarked {pe'a}s, except perhaps outside of poetry, is the reason natural language words have so many meanings
12:42 < ldlework> zipcpi: all language is potentially veridical
12:42 < zipcpi> Like life for {lo ka lifri}
12:42 < ldlework> there's no language where everyone says what they really mean all the time
12:42 < ldlework> in lojban words have one meaning but we never speak pe'anai all the time
12:42 < Ilmen> maybe ithkuil
12:42 < zipcpi> *except perhaps inside poetry
12:43 < ldlework> having a _gadri_ to mark poetic speech just seems like huge overkill
12:43 < Ilmen> fu'e pe'a [text] fu'o
12:44 < Ilmen> just covers everything with pe'a
12:44 < Ilmen> %)
12:44 < ldlework> the gadri are the mechanism by which we construct linguistic references, the major types of references are definite and indefinite. using them for semantic distinction for a semantic characteristic that never confuses our listeners just seems like a waste
12:44 < zipcpi> What I mean is that pe'isai usage like {ko zbasu pa jipci} is the *reason* for polysemy
12:45 < ldlework> There's no polysemy there
12:45 < zipcpi> No, it's the origin of polysemy
12:45 < Ilmen> that's an instance of metonymy
12:46 < ldlework> It depends on whether for you ro da poi jipci zo'u da jmive
12:46 < zipcpi> It's like how people start to use "a star" to mean the shape instead of the celestial object
12:46 < ldlework> or whether 'chickeness' is more platonic
12:46 < zipcpi> And it's exactly why we needed a word like {aste}
12:47 < ldlework> Sure but do you recommend making a word for clay chickens?
12:47 < zipcpi> jipci pixra or jipci pe'a is fine
12:47 < zipcpi> Or jipci tamsmi
12:47 < ldlework> I think its an interesting wager
12:47 < ldlework> And I wonder what lojban we end up with
12:48 < ldlework> I have a feeling that most language is potentially veridical
12:48 < ldlework> and it goes unnoticed by our listeners
12:49 < ldlework> I think that's an effect of the brevity balance and the true goal of language.
12:49 < ldlework> Which is to not bring forth realities by way of spoken word
12:49 < ldlework> But to carry our listener to where we are
12:49 < ldlework> And all speakers are inherently motivated to speak as briefly as possible
12:50 < zipcpi> If I wanted a language where words can gain additional senses over time due to constant non-veridical usage I know where to look for them
12:50 < ldlework> sorry, potentially non-veridical*
12:50 < zipcpi> Heck I'm already speaking one
12:50 < ldlework> zipcpi: I agree we should stay the course, of course
12:50 < ldlework> I'm just observing the forces I see at play
12:51 < zipcpi> And I believe that is one we can't compromise on because I believe it is the *reason* words become polysemous
12:51 < ldlework> I think the advantage lojban has over english is its prescriptivism in vocabulary and that we have the established convention of being able to just adjust the language to usage
12:51 < ldlework> And create words like aste when they become timely
12:52 < ldlework> I think it is the ability to comprehend none metaphor which makes language a practical utility though
12:52 < ldlework> nonce*
12:55 < ldlework> zipcpi: do you think that in the ideal lojbanistan, villans never utter {mua'a'a'a mi ba zi jgari le munje lo mi xance} ?
12:57 < ldlework> zipcpi: or is this villan a villian in more than one way, in that he is one of those annoying jbopre that is always speaking as if they are in a poem?
12:57 < zipcpi> Maybe :p
12:57 < ldlework> hehe
12:58 < ldlework> zipcpi: perhaps it is the difference between semantic metaphor and polysemetic metaphor?
12:59 < ldlework> zipcpi: afterall, the villian here isn't abusing any single lojban word
12:59 < ldlework> but the content taken as a whole is clearly very metaphorical
12:59 < ldlework> maybe it is enough to strive to minimize the latter while embracing the former as part of our humanity
12:59 < zipcpi> Yeah but over time won't that just make {jgari} potentially mean {jitro}?
13:00 < ldlework> sure but then don't we lose the universal conceptualization of what it feels like to hold something in your hand and have power of it
13:00 < ldlework> to 'hold the reigns' of things other than horses?
13:01 < ldlework> we lose access to these diffused semantic associations that our brains themselves find useful
13:01 < ldlework> some that cross cultural and language barriers
13:01 < ldlework> some that are manifest in populations never met
13:01 < zipcpi> The problem is that this is exactly why the word "life" can mean both {lo ka jmive} and {lo ka lifri}
13:02 < zipcpi> Because life originally meant {lo ka jmive}, but then people started adding unmarked {pe'a}s to it
13:02 < ldlework> I understand the problem
13:02 < ldlework> I'm not denying it to you at all
13:02 < ldlework> I embrace the observation that it leads to duplicities
13:03 < zipcpi> And don't get me wrong, I do sometimes see beauty in polysemy too, but Lojban is unique in that it strives to avoid it; if it loses that, it loses its character.
13:03 < durka42> coi ru'e
13:03 < zipcpi> coi
13:04 < ldlework> I don't think lojban loses its essence if you use it metaphorically
13:04 < ldlework> there are many characteristics of lojban that make it unique
13:04 < ldlework> its regular and nested grammar would make it worth looking at even if it advocated polysemy as a goal
13:05 < ldlework> But I understand what you meant
13:05 < ldlework> lojban has many characteristics that sum to put it in a special place on some theoretical chart of languages and each one you degrade moves it away from that place
13:05 < zipcpi> The problem is that if such usage becomes widespread, some future BPFK might decide that "OK; it's time to add "definition 2" to some words" ... and then ... yeah
13:06 < Ilmen> Let's say that one of the basic principles of Lojban is that each lexical unit should have only one meaning, so as to avoid polysemy
13:06 < ldlework> zipcpi: do you opine that the amount of metaphorical speech, however slight, is the vast majority of speech in usage?
13:06 < ldlework> err minority*
13:06 < zipcpi> life as {lo ka lifri}? Yes
13:07 < Ilmen> so when somebody makes a claim using a word that doesn't seem to fit, the listener can guess it's a metaphor (it that's the most likely interpretation
13:07 < ldlework> zipcpi: well I just wonder if we have different metaphors in usage because we are served by words like lifri
13:07 < ldlework> and so you may not see jmive abused that way like in english but maybe we have others
13:07 < ldlework> may some that don't depend on the misuse of a single word
13:07 < zipcpi> I encounter such things all the time in translating English texts, even outside poetic contexts
13:08 < ldlework> I have a feeling that much, if still a minority crutch to acheive understanding with our listeners when we're at a loss otherwise, still exists in lojban
13:08 < zipcpi> Where the literal English gloss word doesn't actually mean what the text means
13:08 < ldlework> Ilmen: ie
13:09 < zipcpi> And so I have to figure out what the English text really means before rendering it to Lojban
13:10 < ldlework> zipcpi: right
13:10 < ldlework> The question is
13:10 < ldlework> If you are translating metaphorical speech in english
13:10 < ldlework> Do you recreate the metaphor, in lojban?
13:10 < ldlework> Even if you do so using words correctly?
13:10 < ldlework> Is that possible?
13:10 < zipcpi> Well in my particular translation I avoided it
13:11 < ldlework> a'u
13:11 < zipcpi> But poetry is still possible in such a context
13:11 < zipcpi> I still translated heart as "risna", but in this case it still refers to a literal heart; it's the logical connection that is metaphorical
13:11 < Ilmen> If I think it's an obvious metaphor that would be understandable regardless of the reader's background, I may copy the metaphor, if it has a nice effect (most likely adding pe'a)
13:12 < ldlework> ro djacu pe ro xamsi ka'e nai se jinru le gradu be lo do kamymelbi
13:12 < ldlework> ^ is this polysemetic metaphor?
13:14 < ldlework> I'd argue its not polysemtic, but rather, using sumti in positions they are impossible, or only make sense in a metaphorical sense.
13:14 < zipcpi> But that is just part of my general approach to Lojbanic translation in general. I try to think, to "meditate", on what the text *really* means
13:14 < Ilmen> it sure is a metaphor, as a gradu cannot jinru; but it's not polysemy as long as this is not a lexically-encoded/recorded idiom
13:14 < ldlework> right
13:14 < ldlework> So is pe'a for marking polysemy or more generically metaphorical speech?
13:14 < Ilmen> zipcpi: .i'e
13:14 < ldlework> I feel like, if the decision is that this kind of non-polysemetic metaphor always needs to be marked as pe'a then we are doomed.
13:15 < ldlework> Or rather, the person desiring such a reality is :D
13:15 < Ilmen> it's a good thing to think about what one really want to express
13:15 < Ilmen> *wants
13:16 < ldlework> zipcpi: me too, and sometimes the original author imparted that concept which combinatons of words that created an illustrative association in my head which is what I try to recreate in my lojban readers.
13:16 < ldlework> I try to reimpart the same literary experience or perception.
13:16 < ldlework> I try to use the same parts of the brain.
13:17 < zipcpi> I believe that is impossible when translating to *any* language
13:17 < ldlework> Why?
13:17 < zipcpi> That isn't just a regloss of English
13:17 < ldlework> Take the platonic idea of losing a loved one to a family member.
13:17 < ldlework> This a trope that doesn't depend on what language it is expressed in.
13:18 < zipcpi> In Lojban many of the words for family do not imply a biological bond.
13:18 < zipcpi> There are some that do
13:18 < ldlework> Many tropes that arise out of our cultures and hummanity are not dependent on the expressing language but what it is like to experience those things.
13:18 < ldlework> So?
13:18 < ldlework> You can use the right word to access the right idea.
13:18 < zipcpi> simsa lo ka...
13:18 < zipcpi> ... is there a BAI for that
13:18 < ldlework> Its merely important to create the same associative progression as in the original work.
13:19 < ldlework> Afterall it is not merely knowing what happens in a story that produces the experience of consuming it.
13:19 < ldlework> There are cliff notes for that.
13:20 < ldlework> zipcpi: there should be!
13:20 < ldlework> seems useful :)
13:20 < zipcpi> And as Ilmen noted, there's always fu'e ... fu'o. Or.... even my own invention {i'au}
13:21 < zipcpi> {i'au pe'a}. Et voila, your entire sentence is now metaphorical
13:21 < ldlework> zipcpi: Ilmen ki'e srana lo nuncasnu
13:22 < Ilmen> je'e to .e'u zo ckire toi
13:22 < ldlework> Ilmen: can you think of a word we can use to refer to the kind of metaphor that involves not polysemy but the abuse of argument types?
13:22 < ldlework> like jinru'ing a gradu
13:23 < Ilmen> maybe mark the entire sentence, or the selbri, as the selbri governs what the sumti slots mean
13:23 < zipcpi> And {fu'o} is grammatical without a corresponding {fu'e}
13:23 < Ilmen> sure
13:24 < ldlework> Ilmen: I mean, we can say "polysemetic metaphor" to refer to say abusing jmive for lifri
13:24 < zipcpi> So I believe {fu'o pe'a} marks the entire utterance, even a long winding poetry, as metaphorical
13:24 < ldlework> What can we say to refer to the kind of metaphor when you use incompatible or nonsensical arguments
13:25 < ldlework> "semantic metaphor" ?
13:28 < zipcpi> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Do_you_hear_the_people_sing
13:28 < zipcpi> For reference
13:33 < zipcpi> {lo klani be ro djacu pe ro xamsi cu ka'enai se karbi fi lo ni do melbi}, or, if you really like the {jinru} metaphor, only {jinru} needs to be marked.
13:33 < zipcpi> Cause there is still a predicate relation between the two things
13:33 < Ilmen> yeah, the selbri governs the sumti slots roles/meanings
13:34 < Ilmen> pe'a-ing the selbri makes the whole relation metaphorical
13:40 < zipcpi> Besides, another feature of translating songs into Lojban is... let's face it, Lojban is not very syllabically economic
13:41 < zipcpi> Thus translating songs into Lojban often feels like the maxim, "when there is nothing left to remove, you have achieved perfection"
13:41 < zipcpi> But even outside of songs... we use a lot more bare selbri in Lojban than we do in English
13:42 < zipcpi> In English we often have to use "empty" words like "it is" "someone that", etc to make it grammatical
13:43 < zipcpi> Then again someone might compare that to how many cmavo Lojban has in order to maintain grammatical structure.
13:43 < zipcpi> If la selpahi was here he'd probably bring up Toaq Dzu :p
13:43 < zipcpi> At the very least though the cmavo each have a particular purpose
13:44 < zipcpi> While in natural languages the reason one sentence is grammatical and another isn't is... really just down to social intuition
13:45 < zipcpi> It "sounds" wrong to native speakers, therefore it is wrong
13:46 < zipcpi> Which is why I completely do not trust myself anymore when attempting to construct Chinese or Malay expressions :p
13:46 < zipcpi> I just don't have enough exposure to gain that social intuition
13:52 < Mateon1> Hello, how should I learn lojban, as a native Polish speaker, and good at English as my second language? I learn best via interaction with and listening to native speakers of a language - I learned most of my english via watching Let's Plays on video sites.
13:52 < zipcpi> coi
13:53 < zipcpi> Read the materials; the Crash Course and the Wave Lessons might be helpful there; and ask lots of questions, "stupid" or otherwise :p
13:53 < zipcpi> Also we often talk in Lojban in this very channel
13:54 < zipcpi> #jbosnu has only Lojban
13:54 < pinji> coi!
13:54 < zipcpi> And #ckule is specifically for beginner's questions
13:55 < Mateon1> Hm, alright. I read the Wikipedia article on Lojban in Polish, it's good, but it's extremely difficult for me to learn this way. Are there any people who do voice recording and/or commentary in Lojban?
13:55 < Ilmen> There are also vocal chats in Lojban every Saturday
13:55 < zipcpi> Wikipedia articles won't help you learn any language :p
13:56 < Mateon1> The Wikipedia article helped with the pronounciation. I only have trouble with: c, x, and am not exactly sure how to pronounce y
13:56 < zipcpi> There are some Lojban videos and songs yes... but they tend to use complex Lojban that even I cannot understand yet, at least at spoken-language speed x.x
13:56 < zipcpi> c is like English sh
13:56 < Mateon1> I know the basics of the grammar, as well. However I need practice and some listening.
13:56 < Ilmen> There's the Bripre Jikca video series on You-Tube, but it's not really intended as a learning material, although it can be used so
13:56 < zipcpi> y is like English *a*bout
13:57 < Ilmen> there are the texts displayed along with the video
13:57 < zipcpi> I can't understand bripre jikca x.x
13:57 < Mateon1> Ilmen: Thank you, will look into that.
13:57 < Ilmen> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRL4pzLEMyrUXwcnri_tPZjo1CxgjLger
13:57 < zipcpi> But a little context, I'm a bit of an "odd one out" in this community. I've been in hiatus for years
13:58 < zipcpi> And am nowhere near as fluent as many others here
13:58 < Ilmen> the #0 and maybe #1 have no text displayed though
13:58 < Ilmen> I think there are texts displayed from episode #2
13:58 < Ilmen> or #1
13:58 < Ilmen> I don't remember
13:59 < zipcpi> Instead though I just pretend I know a lot more of the language than everybody else. You'll get used to it :p
14:00 < Mateon1> Ilmen: Also, videos that aren't intended as learning material, but use understandable language can be better than said learning material.
14:00 < Ilmen> As for me I've never really tried learning languages by listening until very recently, because I used to have a poor connection speed
14:01 < Ilmen> which certainly have a bad impact on my spoken English
14:03 < zipcpi> ldlework: Well there is no simsa BAI, but there is a panra BAI
14:03 < zipcpi> pa'a
14:04 < zipcpi> sepa'a is what you'd want... {sepa'a lo nu ...}
14:04 < Ilmen> Mateon: almost all the teaching materials for Lojban are in a written medium, myself I'm mostly learnt via written courses and discussing/asking here on IRC
14:04 < Ilmen> chatting in Lojban via IRC
14:05 < Ilmen> Now we have vocal chats in Lojban every weekend though
14:05 < Ilmen> http://mw.lojban.org/mw/index.php?title=Recordings_of_live_Lojban_discussions
14:05 < Ilmen> ^ here are a few samples
14:05 < Mateon1> I'll gladly listen if it's on something I have installed, such as Mumble or TeamSpeak
14:05 < Ilmen> It's Mumble
14:06  * zipcpi looks up Polish phonology to see if it has [x]
14:06 < Ilmen> There are other unsorted raw materials there: http://zbaga.ax.lt/Mumble/
14:06 < ldlework> Mateon1: also you can visit our virtual world where we hangout and speak lojban
14:06 < Ilmen> (automatic recordings of the Mumble server)
14:06 < zipcpi> Yes it does apparently
14:06 < Mateon1> zipcpi: It has. Polish has two h sounds. ch, and h
14:07 < gocti> Polish is annoying in that it has [x]~[h] as allophones
14:07 < Mateon1> It's hard for me to make the connection that "x" is a ch sound
14:07 < zipcpi> Oh...
14:07 < zipcpi> Yeah I find allophones are even worse than trying to make new sounds
14:07 < gocti> (ti'e some dialects have them separate though)
14:07 < Mateon1> I pronounce it [ksy]
14:08 < zipcpi> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/malglikslu
14:08 < zipcpi> :p
14:08 < gocti> malpo'olskykslu
14:08 < gocti> malpoxolskykslu
14:09 < zipcpi> Maybe I should just enter {malbauxlu} as a general word
14:09 < zipcpi> It will have a place for which language is causing the {mabla xlura} :p
14:10 < Mateon1> And I'm catching myself reading the y's as the actual yh sound
14:10 < pinji> I know I am late but Lojban's grammar is very easy if you think of it in terms of functions
14:11 < gocti> {y} as [I\] isn't wrong pe'i, if you always use [i] for {i}
14:11 < Mateon1> I know - I know that it works based on arguments. x1 x2 x3 x4 x5, with a base word inserted between, before or after every arguments, possibly ommitting some.
14:11 < Mateon1> after every argument*
14:12 < Mateon1> I actually do some coding, occasionally.
14:12 < pinji> Cool!
14:12 < zipcpi> gocti: Don't some people use that as a "buffer vowel" for consonant clusters they find hard to pronounce?
14:13 < gocti> Always keeping space free for buffer vowels is a bit too unnatural for me
14:13 < zipcpi> Yeah I understand T.T
14:18 < Mateon1> Seems that I found a bug in the Google text-to-speech engine while trying to make a longer y sound pronounced, so I could ask if it's acceptable to pronounce it that way.
14:20 < zipcpi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa
14:20 < zipcpi> Has an audio clip
14:20 < zipcpi> That is {y}
14:21 < zipcpi> And yeah you can pronounce it long or short; vowel length is not phonemic in Lojban
14:21 < Mateon1> Well, should be acceptable then. See text-to-speech on the bottom of the input box : https://translate.google.com/#pl/en/my
14:22 < zipcpi> That sounds like {myn} to me :p
14:22 < Mateon1> Ignoring the m, of course.
14:22 < zipcpi> Yeah but the ending sounds like {n} to my malglixlu ears
14:22 < Mateon1> Huh? I hear no [n] there.
14:22 < zipcpi> *se malglixlu ears :p
14:23 < zipcpi> Still hear it. I don't know why
14:23 < zipcpi> Maybe it's nasalized
14:24 < Mateon1> zipcpi: See, https://www.ivona.com/pl/ - type "ty"
14:24 < zipcpi> mi tirna no da
14:25 < zipcpi> Doesn't seem to work. I press play and I don't hear anything
14:25 < Mateon1> Huh? I'll try to record something with Audacity, then.
14:27 < nonpamjveglecins> coi
14:29 < Mateon1> Hmm, doesn't seem to capture.
14:32 < gocti> ca'e according to BSFK (which ca'e I'm now a member of) [I\] is a perfectly fine realization of /@/, and anyone who never uses buffer vowels can intrude on their space in their idiolect
14:34 < zipcpi> lol
14:34 < zipcpi> You still haven't added yourself to the page :p
14:35 < gocti> .ai jmina fau lo nu fanva le papri lo lojbo
14:35 < zipcpi> You can add yourself to the glibau version first :p
14:35 < gocti> vau noi .ai fasnu za lo cacra be li su'e ji'i 2
14:35 < zipcpi> I'm not even sure what your Wiki name is
14:35 < gocti> Cirko
14:36 < zipcpi> "I have absolutely no Lojban credentials. I'm only creating an account to see if it restores the usual MediaWiki navigation links (history, categories, redirected-from, etc), because the site is pretty fucking hard to navigate without them." ki'a
14:36 < gocti> zbasu lo jaspu fau lo nu ja'a na se bangu
14:37 < Mateon1> zipcpi: I managed to get the sound via some network manipulation. http://puu.sh/i7DKu/55728ef759.mp3
14:37 < zipcpi> Sounds good
14:38 < Mateon1> So that can be used as a [y] sound in lojban?
14:38 < gocti> Some might complain but you won't be misunderstood
14:40 < zipcpi> OK I added you to the page. Do you want a title? :p
14:40 < gocti> semantic dilutionist? :^)
14:41 < zipcpi> Oh by the for the benefit of our nintadni Mateon1: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni
14:42 < zipcpi> The BSFK is a joke group I set up to be the focus for the more chaotic/radical/audacious people :p
14:43 <@Broca> le kamni cu fanza lo spogau
14:43 < gocti> lo tanru cu tanru vau .oi cu'i
14:43 < zipcpi> Er... why isn't there a te fanza
14:44 < zipcpi> There's a te melbi but not a te fanza?
14:44 < zipcpi> ca'i bysyfyky there is now a te fanza :p
14:44 < gocti> .i'e
14:45 < zipcpi> lo bauspo fazykamni cu fanza loi jbopre lo ka aidji co daspo lo jbobau
14:45 < gocti> lo'ai loi jbopre sa'ai le'e lobypre le'ai
14:45 < zipcpi> u'i
14:45 < gocti> .u'u
14:46 < nonpamjveglecins> ma fasnu se ju se casnu
14:46 < gocti> nonpamjveglecins: http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni
14:47 < gocti> (to mu'a toi)
14:47 < nonpamjveglecins> rafsi: spo
14:47 < mensi> zo daspo se rafsi zo'oi spo
14:47 < gocti> zei: bauspo fazykamni
14:47 < mensi> bangu zei daspo fanza zei kamni
14:47 < nonpamjveglecins> .u'i
14:49  * nuzba @uitki: bauspo fazykamni - http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni by Spheniscine - /* Members */ [http://bit.ly/1K30wVy]
14:49  * nuzba @daniel6jas: En mi lista de cosas por hacer antes de morir está aprender a hablar Lojban 😊😊 Algún día... ya sé decir "mi'e daniel, mi rapcreze'a jbobau"😂 [http://bit.ly/1K30Xiz]
14:50 < gocti> pagbu lo mi lo'u pu lo nu mi morsi le'u zei .aiste fa lo ka ja'a ckaji lo ka rapcreze'a jbobau
14:51 < zipcpi> Is there an {.auste}? If not there should be
14:51 < gocti> ca'e ja'a valsi .i ma nabmi
14:51 < Mateon1> How much difference is there between x and ' in spoken lojban?
14:51 < zipcpi> Although {.au} isn't one of those gismuless attitudinals. It's {djica}
14:52 < Mateon1> In Polish, h and ch sound exactly the same, but they feel different to me.
14:52 < zipcpi> Well, ' can never begin a word. But yes, there is a difference between {pa'a} and {pa xa}
14:53 < zipcpi> Part of Lojban is that if pronounced right you never have to figure out the boundaries of words
14:53 < Mateon1> In polish, h by itself rarely begins a word. There are exceptions, though. ch feels "softer" to me
14:54 < zipcpi> [x] is a really rough sound
14:54 < zipcpi> It's like [k] but with friction
14:54 < zipcpi> Like saying [ksss] without moving your mouth
14:55 < Mateon1> h begins words like "huk", "hałas", meaning [loud sound, for example a shot, or a small explosion] and "noise", respectively. There are also words like "herbata", though. Meaning "tea". So that can't really be used as a general rule
14:56 < zipcpi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative This is [x]
14:56 < zipcpi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_glottal_fricative This is [h]
14:56 < Mateon1> Well, that is, in fact, an h sound.
14:58 < Mateon1> I don't think I have heard the glottal one used in Polish.
14:58 < zipcpi> *checks Polish phonology page again*
14:58 < zipcpi> Yeah I don't see it
14:59 < zipcpi> Do you pronounce English [h] as [x]?
14:59 < zipcpi> Hmm I don't know any tricks to how to teach people to say [h]
14:59 < Mateon1> Hm, I dunno, I need an example word. I can't pronounce a letter without context in English.
14:59 < zipcpi> [h]ouse, a[h]a
15:00 < zipcpi> But English has no [x] except in the "true" pronunciation of rare words like lo[ch]
15:00 < Mateon1> Well, I use the [x] h sound in aha, but I'm not quite sure what I use in house
15:01 < zipcpi> Hmm... what happens if you try laughing, or imitating a laugh
15:02 < zipcpi> I'm pretty sure no one laughs [axaxaxaxaxa] regardless of their native tongue, but I could be wrong
15:02 < zipcpi> It's very stressful :p
15:04 < Mateon1> Well, I don't know anymore -- I'm pretty confused by now with all of this. I would say I laugh using the [x] h sound, though.
15:04 < ldlework> zipcpi: you should come visit jboguhe
15:04 < Mateon1> I don't think I laugh often, I usually chuckle more.
15:04 < zipcpi> I would but I'm so information-overloaded at the moment :p
15:06 < Mateon1> I can't actually laugh loud either, since it's late and my walls get sound really easily through them.
15:06 < zipcpi> Yeah it's rare that a language has [x] and no [h]. Usually it's the other way around
15:06 < Mateon1> I might not be getting accurate results right now
15:07 < Mateon1> Also, kinda sick, my throat is hurting a bit. I caught some sort of flu.
15:07 < zipcpi> Oh... yeah that may be a factor :p
15:07 < zipcpi> Get well soon
15:08 < zipcpi> Neither {auste} nor {djiste} have been added yet
15:12 < zipcpi> gocti: By the way I added a word that may be helpful to your translation: {pacpanra} = "evil counterpart"
15:13 < zipcpi> Lojban definition: x1 panra x2 lo ka ce'u palci x3 kei fa'u x4
15:38 < gocti> uo bu'a'a http://mw.lojban.org/papri/bauspo_fazykamni
15:40  * nuzba @nintadni: Mi tolcfagau rapcreze'a jbobau noroi [http://bit.ly/1BAhrHV]
15:44  * nuzba @zvevohi: @nintadni ru'a gau do lo nu do jbobau rapcreze'a no roi tolcfa .i .i'e [http://bit.ly/1Ji7xkO]
15:45 < niftg> rafsi: zve
15:45 < mensi> y no da se tolcri
15:46 < niftg> rafsi: vo'i
15:46 < mensi> y no da se tolcri
15:48 < gocti> sipna co'o
15:50 < zipcpi> Hmm... two-letter rafsi? Not sure I can read that :p
15:51 < zipcpi> ca'i BSFK I have no objections to the *concept*, but if it's not in the dictionary I often can't figure out what it means T.T
15:55 < zipcpi> exp: +s zilmipyzu
15:55 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "z" found.
15:55 < zipcpi> alta: +s zilmipyzu
15:55 < mensi> SyntaxError: Expected [.\t\n\r?! ] but "z" found.
16:41 < zipcpi> But yes using cekitaujau is definitely very BSFK-ish. Too bad I'm not too fluent in it :p
17:47  * nuzba @doublec: Excited to see a "View Translation" on a lojban tweet only to suffer sadness at its attempt to treat it as slovenian. [http://bit.ly/1JiiJxJ]
19:01  * nuzba @WikipediaTrends: Lojban (+3,446%) http://enwp.org/Lojban [http://bit.ly/1FNMQup]
21:11 < Steffmeistro> coi ro
21:50 < noncomcinse> coi
21:55 < gusvli> coi .i ge'e pai
21:55 < gusvli> si pei
21:56 < noncomcinse> ge'e ja'ai
21:56 < noncomcinse> .i do zo'u co'e pei
21:57 < gusvli> surla
21:58 < noncomcinse> mi go'i
21:59 < gusvli> zi citka dormijysai .i bazi pimu cacra cu di'a tadni
22:00 < noncomcinse> je'e
22:03 < noncomcinse> xu do selsau la'oi .Luakit.
22:04 < gusvli> na'e
22:04 < gusvli> cmene ma
22:04 < noncomcinse> zo noncomcinse na cmene mi .i la'e zo noncomcinse jai se ckaji mi
22:05 < noncomcinse> .u'u toldra se .irci
22:15 < Christa627> Hi, anybody here?
22:15 < noncomcinse> Heyo, Christa627
22:16 < Christa627> noncomcinse ; Hi.
22:16 < Christa627> I started learning yesterday.
22:17 < noncomcinse> Cool.
22:18 < Christa627> So I can't say much yet... in Lojban, that is.
22:20 < noncomcinse> What are your thoughts so far?
22:21 < Christa627> I like it so far, although I found that just reading the Lojban for Beginners pdf wasn't doing much for me...
22:22 < noncomcinse> http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons
22:22 < Christa627> I have to write it down to help keep it straight in my head :-)
22:22 < noncomcinse> That's what I learned with at first.
22:23 < noncomcinse> I like it because it structures everything so it teaches grammar, not how to do things like tell time.
23:25 < noncomcinse> .i mi ckire lo mi skami tcika se djuno
23:35 < sdAy> hello
23:35 < sdAy> coo
23:36 < noncomcinse> helloooooo
23:37 < gleki> coi
23:39 < noncomcinse> coi la gleki
23:43 < noncomcinse> mo
23:45 < gleki> lo cnino djedi co'a fasnu
23:53 < noncomcinse> ua
23:53 < noncomcinse> lo mi djedi cu fasnu co'a pu za lo re cacra
23:56 < gleki> y lo cnino donri co'a fasnu
23:57 < noncomcinse> je'e
23:57 < noncomcinse> .i mi jai se tcika li re
23:58 < gleki> mi jai se tcika li cy 10
--- Log closed Mon Jun 01 00:00:19 2015