[lojban-beginners] closed systems error

[Jan Pilgenroeder <pille@mac.com>]

coi xorxes

after a somewhat sleepless night I figured that you were right about 
something being wrong with my sentence about closed systems. But the 
problem is not the X3 place structure.

I repeat the definition of the operation again:

.ica'e lu luman zei nunzga li'u cu brivla
	le si'o gasnu le logji nunsei
		gi'e snigau fi le se nunsei kei
	le zgana se zukte ku
		ce'o lo se nunsei ku
		ce'o lo te nunsei ku
		ce'o le zgana poi ciste fi pisu'o lo'i luman zei nunzga vau
	la lojban

(I got rid of the nu'o, the sumti are optional anyway, so I don't need 
it.
I also made sure I talk about systems of subsets of luman zei nunzga)

.ica'e brode cei luman zei nunzga

Now the bad sentence again:

.ije'unai la brode ganlo ciste goi ko'a cu velbo'e
	da poi ko'a ka'e velbo'e ke'a ku'o
	de poi ko'a na ka'e velbo'e ke'a

And you are right. The sentence implies:

.i velbo'e de poi na ka'e velbo'e ke'a
.iva'i ka'e velbo'e de .ije  na ka'e velbo'e de

The system gets in trouble when it tries to do that. But it can observe 
itself getting in trouble:

.i velbo'e le velbo'e be de poi na ka'e velbo'e ke'a

That's actually what happened when you looked at my sentence and 
complained about it :-)
So now we can say:

.i le velbo'e goi ko'a cu velbo'e
	le velbo'e be da poi velbo'e ke'a ku'o
	le velbo'e be de poi na ka'e velbo'e ke'a

The selbo'e of this observation is something the system can deal with. 
The terbo'e can be observed, but the system gets to a point where it 
gets in trouble (or rather: may get in trouble when it gets caught). 
This example also shows that the system is fine as long as it only 
observes its observations:

"brode le brode le brode" always works.

And the fact that "co'e le co'e le co'e " works too suggests:

.i tu'a zo co'e cu klesi lo'i velbo'e
.iva'i la'e lu lo broda li'u cu se luman zei nunzga
.ija'o ka'e djuno le du'u go'i kei po'o lo munje

In my screwed up example I jammed something into the marked space of an 
observation of the system. The system was not really closed anymore. 
That's what was causing the trouble. The system can deal with this 
irritation by building observations around it. It's somewhat like an 
oyster building a pearl around something it can't digest or get rid of 
;-)

mu'omi'e .ian.

--
Jan Pilgenroeder
Theaterstr. 59
52062 Aachen