WikiDiscuss

Posted by xorxes on Wed 17 of Nov, 2004 14:11 GMT posts: 1912

> !! Examples of lu Usage
>
> xu lu setca le stedu le xarju li'u xlali xe fanva fo le glico
> Is "Go stick your head in a pig" a bad translation from English?

I'd say the English should be "sticks the head in a pig", or else
add a {ko} to the Lojban.

> !! Examples of lo'u Usage
>
> lo'u se ra'a le'u cu xamgu se pilno
> "pertains to" is useful.

This one too could have been done with lu-li'u, since {se ra'a}
is a valid fragment.

But perhaps lu-li'u should be reserved for texts quoted as texts, and
lo'u-le'u used for quoted words even when the words could constitute a
text by themselves. Here we are not talking about the text {se ra'a}
but only about the word combination, so lo'u-le'u seems better.

But then we shouldn't call them "error quotes", but "loose words quotes"
or something like that.

> mu'i ma do djica lo nu casnu lo'u co co co le'u bu
> Why would you want to talk about "co co co"-as-a-letter?

That would require a {me'o}, I think. Otherwise, the lerfu
is presumably acting as a pronoun.

> zo lo'u krasi lo srera te sitna
> "lo'u" begins error quotations.
>
> lo'u co da le'u zei ritli cu lujvo da poi no da djuno
> "co da type-of ritli" is a lujvo meaning no-one knows what.

Quotes around {lo'u co da zei ritli} are needed.

> !! Proposed Definition of zo
>
> ;zo (ZO): One word quotation. Quotes the next word only. Quotes a
> single Lojban word. Does not quote cmavo compound or tanru in their
> entirety; only the first word is quoted.

Since you mention cmavo compounds and tanru, you might as well mention
zei-lujvo, bu-lerfu, other zo-quotes, emphasized words, and the rest of
the magic constructs.

For grammatical purposes, "zo"
> binds with the following word. The combination is considered a single word of
> the pseudo selma'o any-word

Perhaps we should clarify that that is for following magic words,
not for preceding ones.

> zo zo .e zo zei .e zo zoi .e zo bu .e zo lo'u .e zo di si zo si cu vacri .y.
> sa zo si cu valsi
> ''"zo" and "zei" and "zoi" and "bu" and "lo'u" and "di", I mean "si" are air,
> umm, I mean ... "si" are words.''

ba'e makfa valsi

> klama zei zo cu lujvo da poi no da djuno
> "klama type-of zo" is a lujvo meaning no-one knows what.

lu klama zei zo li'u

> !! Examples of zoi Usage
....
> The following examples are intended to illustrate interactions of lo'u...le'u
> with other words of special grammatical effect, and hence may be
> pathological.

(I think you had that for "zo" too.)

> mi so'a roi na morji le cmene be zoi zoi That letter that you use between a
> user id and a host name in an e-mail address zoi bu
> I can never remember the name of the letter @.

Supposedly it needs a {me'o}. (It's a strange translation into English too,
from quoted English to a symbol.)

> !! Proposed Definition of la'o
>
> ;la'o (ZOI): Non-Lojban name quotation. Creates a delimited non-Lojban
> name. The resulting quote sumti is treated as a name. The result is treated
> as a single word. The cmavo "la'o" is equivalent in most respects to "la me
> zoi".

Not strictly. In {la me zoi zoi ... zoi}, the words "me zoi zoi" are part
of the name. In {la'o zoi ... zoi} the name only begins after the {zoi}.
{la'o} is closer to {la'e zoi}.

> xu do nelci le cnino se viska be la'o gy. lojban.org gy.
> Do you like the new look of lojban.org?

pe'i {jvinu} is better for "look".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by rlpowell on Fri 19 of Nov, 2004 02:27 GMT posts: 14214

On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 05:53:27AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> But perhaps lu-li'u should be reserved for texts quoted as texts,
> and lo'u-le'u used for quoted words even when the words could
> constitute a text by themselves. Here we are not talking about the
> text {se ra'a} but only about the word combination, so lo'u-le'u
> seems better.
>
> But then we shouldn't call them "error quotes", but "loose words
> quotes" or something like that.

I can't think of a good way to explain or name that, but I will add
a usage note to that effect:

Sometimes, "lo'u" quoting is used when the text is grammatical,
either because the user wishes just to quote the words by
themselves, out of context, or so the user doesn't have to think
about whether the utterance might be grammatical or not.

> > !! Proposed Definition of zo
> >
> > ;zo (ZO): One word quotation. Quotes the next word only.
> > Quotes a single Lojban word. Does not quote cmavo compound or
> > tanru in their entirety; only the first word is quoted.
>
> Since you mention cmavo compounds and tanru, you might as well
> mention zei-lujvo, bu-lerfu, other zo-quotes, emphasized words,
> and the rest of the magic constructs.

Let's not: It does not quote entire constructs of any kind, only
their first word.

> > For grammatical purposes, "zo" binds with the following word.
> > The combination is considered a single word of the pseudo
> > selma'o any-word
>
> Perhaps we should clarify that that is for following magic words,
> not for preceding ones.

Is "with the following word" not clear enough? I don't understand.

> > zo zo .e zo zei .e zo zoi .e zo bu .e zo lo'u .e zo di si zo si
> > cu vacri .y. sa zo si cu valsi
> > ''"zo" and "zei" and "zoi" and "bu" and "lo'u" and "di", I mean
> > "si" are air, umm, I mean ... "si" are words.''
>
> ba'e makfa valsi

Yeah, that was definately the most pathological of the lot. I
enjoyed writing it.

> > mi so'a roi na morji le cmene be zoi zoi That letter that you
> > use between a user id and a host name in an e-mail address zoi
> > bu
> > I can never remember the name of the letter @.
>
> Supposedly it needs a {me'o}.

True.

> (It's a strange translation into English too, from quoted English
> to a symbol.)

I was trying to make it clear that the Lojban is a single letter.

> > !! Proposed Definition of la'o
> >
> > ;la'o (ZOI): Non-Lojban name quotation. Creates a
> > delimited non-Lojban name. The resulting quote sumti is treated
> > as a name. The result is treated as a single word. The cmavo
> > "la'o" is equivalent in most respects to "la me zoi".
>
> Not strictly. In {la me zoi zoi ... zoi}, the words "me zoi zoi"
> are part of the name. In {la'o zoi ... zoi} the name only begins
> after the {zoi}. {la'o} is closer to {la'e zoi}.

lo se cmene be zoi?

> > xu do nelci le cnino se viska be la'o gy. lojban.org gy.
> > Do you like the new look of lojban.org?
>
> pe'i {jvinu} is better for "look".

I didn't write it. But since it's an example, I don't much
mind editing it. Done.

-Robin

Posted by xorxes on Fri 19 of Nov, 2004 19:44 GMT posts: 1912

> > > For grammatical purposes, "zo" binds with the following word.
> > > The combination is considered a single word of the pseudo
> > > selma'o any-word
> >
> > Perhaps we should clarify that that is for following magic words,
> > not for preceding ones.
>
> Is "with the following word" not clear enough? I don't understand.

I meant in the second sentence. "The comination is considered a
single word" for following magic words, not preceding ones.
So {da zei zo broda} is a tanru of {da zei zo} and {broda},
not a lujvo made of {da} and {zo broda}.

> > > !! Proposed Definition of la'o
> > >
> > > ;la'o (ZOI): Non-Lojban name quotation. Creates a
> > > delimited non-Lojban name. The resulting quote sumti is treated
> > > as a name. The result is treated as a single word. The cmavo
> > > "la'o" is equivalent in most respects to "la me zoi".
> >
> > Not strictly. In {la me zoi zoi ... zoi}, the words "me zoi zoi"
> > are part of the name. In {la'o zoi ... zoi} the name only begins
> > after the {zoi}. {la'o} is closer to {la'e zoi}.
>
> lo se cmene be zoi?

That works, yes.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by rlpowell on Sat 29 of Jan, 2005 02:47 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Nov 19, 2004 at 06:07:05AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> --- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > > > For grammatical purposes, "zo" binds with the following
> > > > word. The combination is considered a single word of the
> > > > pseudo selma'o any-word
> > >
> > > Perhaps we should clarify that that is for following magic
> > > words, not for preceding ones.
> >
> > Is "with the following word" not clear enough? I don't
> > understand.
>
> I meant in the second sentence. "The comination is considered a
> single word" for following magic words, not preceding ones. So {da
> zei zo broda} is a tanru of {da zei zo} and {broda}, not a lujvo
> made of {da} and {zo broda}.

I haven't pointed it out anywhere else, because that's what
left-to-right is for, so I'd rather not.

> > > > ;la'o (ZOI): Non-Lojban name quotation. Creates a
> > > > delimited non-Lojban name. The resulting quote sumti is
> > > > treated as a name. The result is treated as a single word.
> > > > The cmavo "la'o" is equivalent in most respects to "la me
> > > > zoi".
> > >
> > > Not strictly. In {la me zoi zoi ... zoi}, the words "me zoi
> > > zoi" are part of the name. In {la'o zoi ... zoi} the name only
> > > begins after the {zoi}. {la'o} is closer to {la'e zoi}.
> >
> > lo se cmene be zoi?
>
> That works, yes.

vi'o

-Robin

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