WikiDiscuss

> !! Examples of te du'i Usage
>
> re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi frica lo ka skari
> Two groups, of five cards which are equal in color, of different colors.

frica fi lo ka skari

Not very logical though. Where would the {ke'a} go?
Probably {fricysimxu}, and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...}

> !! Examples of mu'u Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi nelci lo titla cidja mu'u lo titnanba
> I enjoy sweet foods, such as cake.

{be mu'u}

> da'i mi catra do te mu'u lo'i zekri
> Suppose I kill you, this is an example of a crime.

I think that's more like: "Suppose I kill you as an example of a crime."
The {te mu'u} is not outside the scope of {da'i}.

> !! Examples of pa'u Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi finti le minji pa'u lo danlu selci
> I've invented this machine which includes animal cells.

{be pa'u}
(Are the animal cells part of the machine of part of me, or both?)

> !! Examples of se pa'u Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi zbasu lo gurni pesxu se pa'u lo titnanba
> I make dough as a part of cake.

{be se pa'u}

> !! Examples of pa'a Usage
>
> pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu se pa'a la xavier
> What do you think of me replacing my all-black close with all white clothes, like Xavier?

{pa'a tu'a la xavier}?

I suppose Xavier could not be parallel to the clothes, but maybe it
could be a brand
or something?

> !! Examples of te pa'a Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti
> I make cookies and not cake, the difference between them being size and softness.

s/pe/ne

> !! Examples of se cau Usage
>
> se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo
> Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more skilled.

s/ro/lo

> !! Examples of ra'a Usage
>
> mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
> I am not certain what book your sentence is about.

That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se srana le do jufra}.

What you have means something like: "what book which your sentence is about
am I not certain?" Not very clear, because it is not clear what {birti lo cukta}
means.

> !! Examples of li'e Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan.
> I go to the store preceeded by/following John.

After going to John?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Posted by rlpowell on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:16 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, May 06, 2005 at 08:51:25PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > !! Examples of te du'i Usage
> >
> > re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi frica lo ka skari
> > Two groups, of five cards which are equal in color, of different colors.
>
> frica fi lo ka skari
>
> Not very logical though. Where would the {ke'a} go?
> Probably {fricysimxu},

How about:

''re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi ke'a simxu lo nu
frica fi lo ka skari''

> and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...}

Why?

> > !! Examples of pa'u Usage
> >
> > Artificial:
> >
> > mi finti le minji pa'u lo danlu selci
> > I've invented this machine which includes animal cells.
>
> {be pa'u}

Yep.

> (Are the animal cells part of the machine of part of me, or both?)

The former.

> > !! Examples of te pa'a Usage
> >
> > Artificial:
> >
> > mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti
> > I make cookies and not cake, the difference between them being size and softness.
>
> s/pe/ne

Why?

> > !! Examples of se cau Usage
> >
> > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo
> > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more skilled.
>
> s/ro/lo

Why?

> > !! Examples of ra'a Usage
> >
> > mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
> > I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
>
> That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se srana le
> do jufra}.
>
> What you have means something like: "what book which your sentence
> is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because it is not
> clear what {birti lo cukta} means.

How about tu'a ma poi cukta?

> > !! Examples of li'e Usage
> >
> > Artificial:
> >
> > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan.
> > I go to the store preceeded by/following John.
>
> After going to John?

What? No, I am following John physically. li'e is non-temporal.

-Robin

On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> How about:
>
> ''re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi ke'a simxu lo nu
> frica fi lo ka skari''
>
> > and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...}
>
> Why?

because the two together are mutually different, you can't say of each
that it is mutually different.

> > > mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti
> > > I make cookies and not cake, the difference between them being size and softness.
> >
> > s/pe/ne
>
> Why?

I took the comment as explicative, not restrictive.

> > > !! Examples of se cau Usage
> > >
> > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo
> > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more skilled.
> >
> > s/ro/lo
>
> Why?

Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only if they
fall every time?

> > > !! Examples of ra'a Usage
> > >
> > > mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
> > > I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
> >
> > That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se srana le
> > do jufra}.
> >
> > What you have means something like: "what book which your sentence
> > is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because it is not
> > clear what {birti lo cukta} means.
>
> How about tu'a ma poi cukta?

The Lojban is still a question, the English is not.

> > > !! Examples of li'e Usage
> > >
> > > Artificial:
> > >
> > > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan.
> > > I go to the store preceeded by/following John.
> >
> > After going to John?
>
> What? No, I am following John physically. li'e is non-temporal.

But why does li'e indicate that {mi} follows {la djan} and not that
{le zarci} follows {la djan}? Wouln't that have to be {mi ne li'e la djan}?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug, 2005 22:39 GMT posts: 14214

On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:57:36PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > How about:
> >
> > ''re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi ke'a simxu lo
> > nu frica fi lo ka skari''
> >
> > > and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...}
> >
> > Why?
>
> because the two together are mutually different, you can't say of
> each that it is mutually different.

Ah, indeed. I have a mild preference for "loi re lo mu"; any
problem there?

> > > > ''mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te
> > > > pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti'' I make cookies and not
> > > > cake, the difference between them being size and softness.
> > >
> > > s/pe/ne
> >
> > Why?
>
> I took the comment as explicative, not restrictive.

• nod*

I still have trouble with that difference, as you're well aware.

> > > > !! Examples of se cau Usage
> > > >
> > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo
> > > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more
> > > > skilled.
> > >
> > > s/ro/lo
> >
> > Why?
>
> Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only if
> they fall every time?

Umm, *without* every event of falling. It's in the se cau. They
can become more skilled only if they are not without every event of
falling.

> > > > !! Examples of ra'a Usage
> > > >
> > > > mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
> > > > I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
> > >
> > > That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se
> > > srana le do jufra}.
> > >
> > > What you have means something like: "what book which your
> > > sentence is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because
> > > it is not clear what {birti lo cukta} means.
> >
> > How about tu'a ma poi cukta?
>
> The Lojban is still a question, the English is not.

tu'a ma kau poi cukta, then.

> > > > !! Examples of li'e Usage
> > > >
> > > > Artificial:
> > > >
> > > > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan.
> > > > I go to the store preceeded by/following John.
> > >
> > > After going to John?
> >
> > What? No, I am following John physically. li'e is
> > non-temporal.
>
> But why does li'e indicate that {mi} follows {la djan} and not
> that {le zarci} follows {la djan}? Wouln't that have to be {mi ne
> li'e la djan}?

Hmm. OK.

-Robin

On 5/22/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:57:36PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > > > > !! Examples of se cau Usage
> > > > >
> > > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo
> > > > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more
> > > > > skilled.
> > > >
> > > > s/ro/lo
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only if
> > they fall every time?
>
> Umm, *without* every event of falling. It's in the se cau. They
> can become more skilled only if they are not without every event of
> falling.

Tthere are too many conventions about scope of negations around and we
haven't voted on that yet, but to me that sentence says that every falling is
such that without it the climbers don't become more skilled. Even if you
take {na} to have scope over {ro}, it would say that not every fall is such
that without it climbers become more skilled. Neither reading corresponds
to the English, which requires the {ro} to be in a subordinate bridi.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug, 2005 22:39 GMT posts: 14214

On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 05:53:29PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> On 5/22/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:57:36PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > > On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > !! Examples of se cau Usage
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ''se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu
> > > > > > binxo'' Without any event of falling, climbers do not
> > > > > > become more skilled.
> > > > >
> > > > > s/ro/lo
> > > >
> > > > Why?
> > >
> > > Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only
> > > if they fall every time?
> >
> > Umm, *without* every event of falling. It's in the se cau.
> > They can become more skilled only if they are not without every
> > event of falling.
>
> Tthere are too many conventions about scope of negations around
> and we haven't voted on that yet, but to me that sentence says
> that every falling is such that without it the climbers don't
> become more skilled. Even if you take {na} to have scope over
> {ro}, it would say that not every fall is such that without it
> climbers become more skilled. Neither reading corresponds to the
> English, which requires the {ro} to be in a subordinate bridi.

Fine, fine; fixed. Now go vote.

-Robin

> !! Examples of ka'i Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma
> I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.

mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna

> !! Examples of se ka'i Usage
>
> Artificial:
>
> mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do
> I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.

{mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu}

> !! Examples of me'e Usage
>
> mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis
> I've been watching Buffy.

Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, ISO-8859-1 Jorge Llambas wrote:

>> !! Examples of ka'i Usage
>>
>> Artificial:
>>
>> mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma
>> I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.
>
> mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna
>
>> !! Examples of se ka'i Usage
>>
>> Artificial:
>>
>> mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do
>> I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.
>
> {mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu}
>
>> !! Examples of me'e Usage
>>
>> mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis
>> I've been watching Buffy.
>
> Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?

And shouldn't it be {zo byfis} instead of {la byfis}?
--
Adam Lopresto
http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/

.-""-.
.--./ `. .-""-.
.' `.,"\ \ _ .' _ \
: _ _ : \ `" "' ,' \ /
.-| _ _ |-. Y Y `-'
((_| (O)(O) |_)) | _ _ |
`-| .--. |-' | (o)(o) |
.-' ( ) `-. / __ \
/ .-._`--'_.-. \ | /# \ |
( (n uuuu n) )| \__/ |
`.`"=nnnnnn="'.' \ / _
`-..-' _ `.__.' _ / )-,
_/\| |/\__ .' `-" "-' (_/ / )
.w'/\ \__/ /\w/ |_/ / )
.-\w\/ \/| | `-(_/
/ |ww\\ \ / //w| | | \
/ |www\\/`'\//ww| | |\ \
/ |wwww\\ //www| | | \ \

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug, 2005 23:24 GMT posts: 14214

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 12:10:27PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > !! Examples of ka'i Usage
> >
> > Artificial:
> >
> > mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma
> > I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.
>
> mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna

Whoops. Thanks.

> > !! Examples of se ka'i Usage
> >
> > Artificial:
> >
> > mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do
> > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.
>
> {mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu}

cu isn't necessary, is it?

I'm putting it in anyways; just curious.

Huh. It is, actually, otherwise it's
(le (te selplijibri be mi) (cpacu) )

> > !! Examples of me'e Usage
> >
> > mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis
> > I've been watching Buffy.
>
> Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?

Not the way my friends say it.

-Robin

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug, 2005 23:25 GMT posts: 14214

On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 10:48:44AM -0500, Adam D. Lopresto wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, ISO-8859-1 Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
>
> >>!! Examples of ka'i Usage
> >>
> >>Artificial:
> >>
> >>mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma
> >>I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.
> >
> >mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna
> >
> >>!! Examples of se ka'i Usage
> >>
> >>Artificial:
> >>
> >>mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do
> >>I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.
> >
> >{mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu}
> >
> >>!! Examples of me'e Usage
> >>
> >>mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis
> >>I've been watching Buffy.
> >
> >Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?
>
> And shouldn't it be {zo byfis} instead of {la byfis}?

Indeed.

-Robin