Lojban In General

Posted by lagejyspa on Thu 04 of Feb, 2010 11:28 GMT posts: 350

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'"
> (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you
> said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
>
> My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's
> just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar
> to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci
> cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English
> mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their
> emphasis.
>
> I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could
> probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to
> forget it (again).
>
> mi'e pafcribe
>

No, your first thought was exactly correct. ba'e emphasizes the next
word, thereby singling it out as important.
--gejyspa

I (a beginner) would express this with e.g. {do cusku lu ta li'u .ue} versus {do cusku .ue lu ta li'u}, but (assuming it works at all) that doesn't generalize to surprise on the part of a person other than the speaker.

---Original Message---
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:30:03
To: <lojban-list@lojban.org>
Subject: lojban question about emphasis or something like it

How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'"
(emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you
said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?

My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just
there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to
how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu
se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English
mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their
emphasis.

I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could probably
have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget
it (again).

mi'e pafcribe

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'"
> (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you
> said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?

This is called "focus" in linguistics. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_(linguistics)

In Lojban you can probably indicate focus with "ba'e", but you can
also do it with "kau" after a non-question word, see:
http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c11/s8.html

Also, any attitudinal will generally tend to put some focus on what it marks.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Assuming that his surprise is a piece of information being conveyed, rather than that he is simply expressing his surprise, the 'ue' form is inappropriate, since it is merely an expression, not a claim. The English is, alas, ambiguous in just this way.

From: Sam Chapin <not.here.now@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 3:49:35 PM
Subject: lojban Re: question about emphasis or something like it

I (a beginner) would express this with e.g. {do cusku lu ta li'u .ue} versus {do cusku .ue lu ta li'u}, but (assuming it works at all) that doesn't generalize to surprise on the part of a person other than the speaker.

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:30:03 -0500
To: <lojban-list@lojban.org>
Subject: lojban question about emphasis or something like it
How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?

My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their emphasis.

I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget it (again).

mi'e pafcribe

Posted by lukebergen on Thu 04 of Feb, 2010 11:28 GMT posts: 493

Thanks for the responses. I guess it would make sense that I was unsure how
to do this. I never really understood {kau} intuitively.

2010/1/21 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said
> 'that'"
> > (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that
> you
> > said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
>
> This is called "focus" in linguistics. See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_(linguistics)
>
> In Lojban you can probably indicate focus with "ba'e", but you can
> also do it with "kau" after a non-question word, see:
> http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c11/s8.html
>
> Also, any attitudinal will generally tend to put some focus on what it
> marks.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

Wouldn't that also be conveyed by place structure?

In other words, I assume you'd use some more correct form of:

lo te tavla spaji mi

or

lo nu do tavla spaji mi

drani xu

Judson

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the responses. I guess it would make sense that I was unsure
> how to do this. I never really understood {kau} intuitively.
>
> 2010/1/21 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said
>> 'that'"
>> > (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that
>> you
>> > said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
>>
>> This is called "focus" in linguistics. See:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_(linguistics)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_%28linguistics%29>
>>
>> In Lojban you can probably indicate focus with "ba'e", but you can
>> also do it with "kau" after a non-question word, see:
>> http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c11/s8.html
>>
>> Also, any attitudinal will generally tend to put some focus on what it
>> marks.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>>
>>
>

Posted by PierreAbbat on Thu 04 of Feb, 2010 11:28 GMT posts: 324

On Saturday 23 January 2010 17:01:46 Judson Lester wrote:
> Wouldn't that also be conveyed by place structure?
>
> In other words, I assume you'd use some more correct form of:
>
> lo te tavla spaji mi
>
> or
>
> lo nu do tavla spaji mi
>
> drani xu

"cu" between "tavla" and "spaji", else the sentence is just two sumti,
or "kei" in the second. Those mean "What (you) talked about surprised me"
and "That you talked surprised me". "lo te tavla cu spaji mi" just says that
what you talked about surprised me, irrespective of who talked about it.

Pierre

--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.