WikiDiscuss

Jorge Llambas wrote:

>xod:
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>>When I say "klama", doesn't that mean "zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e"?
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>Yes.
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>>Then, klama noda is not covered by the meaning of klama, making it a
>>different selbri.
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>Not sure what you mean. {klama noda} is {naku su'oda zo'u zo'e klama
>da zo'e zo'e zo'e}: "It is not the case that for at least one x,
>the relationship klama(-,x,-,-,-) holds".
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Is that the same as asserting that it is true, with zero xes in the
second place? Then this is simply unfair bias against the number zero.

>{klama} is the selbri, which is said to not hold in this case.
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>>Now what if we discover a piece of text where the value noda is
>>understood as obvious for a certain place, and is being elided in that
>>context? Would it prove my argument, or would you reject it as incorrect
>>Lojban?
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>It would be interesting to see such case.
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>>Suppose we were discussing wandering aimlessly. Then would
>>"ba'anai mi .e le mi gerku puzuze'u klama fo la .brodueis." confuse a
>>reasonable reader as being unrelated to the discussion, since I 'said'
>>that we had a destination?
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>The canonical answer:
>The x2 of klama is wherever you end up after the klamaing is over.
>There can't be an event of klama that does not end with the x1
>at x2. The x2 is not the destination, as in the place the goer
>intends to go, but just the place where the goer ends up at.
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Then replace the case with some gismu and instance where you feel noda
would be appropriate, and then re-answer the question. Unless you want
to assert that noda is never really correct, the physical
'impossibility' of klama noda is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

>My answer:
>Lojban gismu are bloated. In general they have too many places,
>which means they force you to say things you don't want to
>(unless you are prepared to use zi'o all over the place).
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>>In a sense you are claiming that noda is never an obvious term and never
>>an irrelevant possibility. Isn't that bold?
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>Would you say that {naku} is ever obvious/irrelevant? {noda}
>is simply {naku su'oda}.
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You're being consistent. You would prefer to eliminate any places that
aren't physically forced to be filled with non-zero values. My position
hinges on the idea that this is not currently the case, whether or not I
am able to provide an unassailable example!

>>Do you mean to say that zo'e = su'oda,
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>Certainly not! But {zo'e} does entail {su'oda}.
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Ah, splitting hairs between "=" and "entails".

>>but zi'o = ny. da where n = any
>>real number?
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>{zi'o} eliminates the place from the place structure. I don't
>understand what you mean there.
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Eliminating it from the place structure doesn't mean it has no value.
But it would prevent the ghost zo'e from appearing, allowing zero in
there as a quantity, as well as non-zero numbers.

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