WikiDiscuss

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wrote:

> --- John E Clifford wrote:
> > "in the model" still puzzles me.
>
> You introduced the term, not me. I was using
> "universe of discourse".

OK, that translation helps. It's not quite what
I meant but we are getting to the same page.

> > All the cows
> > that .... what? I am thinking about?, are
> near
> > enough to be of interest? and so on.
>
> Right. All the ones we are talking about. All
> the
> ones that are part of the discourse.

{lo bakni} is all of these? At any given moment
at least? I suppose that will work if the whole
can change constantly. My universe of discourse
is relatively stable but what parts of it are
taken out to be referred to grows as the model
develops.
Thus using, say, {lo drata bakni} after {lo
bakni} would not add to the universe of discourse
but would add to what is used in the model.

> > On a not unrelated issue. Two occurrences of
> {mu
> > bakni} can indicate two different bunches of
> > cows;
>
> While the universe of discourse does not
> change, each
> occurrence says that out of the (same)
> available
> cows, five do something or other. It need not
> be the same
> five each time.

That is, another bunch might get taken up in the
model. OK

> > can two occurrences of {lo bakni} (in the
> > same context, etc.) indicate two different
> > bunches of cows or must they be the same?
>
> As long as the model doesn't change, they are
> the same,
> but the model can change very quckly. As you
> said, the
> model is being constructed and modified as
> discourse
> progresses. There are ways (such as assignable
> pronouns)
> to ensure more durable reference.

This one is harder to see. You mean, I suppose
either that the universe of discourse can expand
or that the parts taken up in the model can
expand. The latter is clearly true, the former
seems to equate the universe of discourse with
the things taken up in the model, which is fine
except for the metaphysical question of where
they came from. Then, of course, if {lo bakni}
is all the cows in the universe of discourse =
all those playing the role of a value in the
model, it will change if some new cows come in,
lo drata bakni, say (this generates a paradox of
a sort, requiring that we go back and change the
model we were developing, but realistically this
sort of thing happens — just not obviously in
this case.)