BPFK Section: Causation sumtcita
On Sun, 5 Jun 2005, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 05:31:09PM +0200, Arnt Richard Johansen
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 10:49:26PM -0400, John.Cowan wrote:
>>>> wikidiscuss@lojban.org Arnt Richard Johansen scripsit:
>>>>
>>>>> ... But people have been used "bai" for all kinds of stuff,
>>>>> including people and objects. This is also the case for the one
>>>>> example (".i za'a bai lo skami mi nalviska le se cinri nu
>>>>> casnu").
>>>>>
>>>>> So, how do we solve this?
>>>>>
>>>>
cowan:
>>>> Explicitly allow sumti-raising in BAIs, relative to the source
>>>> gismu.
>>>
arj:
>>
>> However, I think new problems will appear in its stead.
>> Determining what is a concrete object and what isn't will prove a
>> major headache. Just consider these few cases:
>
> Indeed.
>
> Once again, I say that the whole marking gismu places as being only
> abstractions or only objects is A Mistake, and this is yet another
> symptom of that underlying problem. To put it another way, I think
> that the metaphysics of whether (WRT the x1 of bapli) an object can
> force something to happen, or only a property, is entirely outside
> the scope of the BPFK and the language design. That's up to the
> speakers.
>
> I was attempting to work within this mistake, however, because
> no-one seems to agree with me.
>
> I no longer have a solution to the "bai" problem at hand, within the
> scope of enforced place structures, except to say that most usage of
> "bai" (and probably of "bapli") thus far is wrong.
Yes. Or maybe the supplicatory model...?
> I would very much like someone to summarize this discussion (Broca,
> if you wouldn't mind?) and stick it in the gismu issues section
> (which should be unlocked).
(Note to those not on IRC: I am Broca.)
Sure, I'll do it. Feel free to whip me along if I forget about it.
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Inuktitut iis eesseentiiaallyy Fiinniish aas spooqqeen iin Greenlaand.
--Clint Jackson Baker, via Essentialist Explanations